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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: APM on September 15, 2020, 09:54:04 AM

Title: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: APM on September 15, 2020, 09:54:04 AM
It used to be that people that believed in conspiracy theories were marginalised crackpots who might feature in a TV documentary or may be characterised in some drama series. Generally you didn't meet them in everyday life.  Now it seems like half of America now believes in some conspiracy theory or another (that may be an exaggeration). It doesn't seem to be as pervasive here, but I bet everyone on here knows someone who believes in some conspiracy theory.

Is the growth of this stuff via social media and the rubbishing of expert opinion going to take us back to the dark ages.

Discuss!

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: imtommygunn on September 15, 2020, 09:58:25 AM
The COVID stuff is interesting. There are a growing number of people who think it and the mask wearing in particular are conspiracies. I am not sure I can fully work out why that is thought. I think it's relating to control and the big brother type stuff.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: lurganblue on September 15, 2020, 10:00:44 AM
The COVID stuff is interesting. There are a growing number of people who think it and the mask wearing in particular are conspiracies. I am not sure I can fully work out why that is thought. I think it's relating to control and the big brother type stuff.

I find personal trainers and gym owners are big into this belief.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rudi on September 15, 2020, 10:06:03 AM
People clearly have too much time & waste it reading and/or spouting shite on social media. Social media is utter dung & yes I can see the irony of that statement.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 15, 2020, 10:18:20 AM
Some of the 9/11 conspiracy theories are scary that people put forward.

One that never really gets much traction in the West is the Moscow Apartment Bombings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 10:19:05 AM
It’s all about perception.

Internet debating, almost without fail, ends up with increasingly personal attack on the poster/person rather than the subject matter. Describing a certain mindset or thought pattern as being that of a “conspiracy theorist” is the new endgame for full time debaters (having succeeded writing “fact” at the end of sentences, describing others’ thoughts as being “Karen from Facebook”, the straw man discourse, and the recent classic of describing anyone who can show weakness in your viewpoints as having Dunning Kruger).

——

The reason for the lack of trust in masks is simple enough. Continually taking the same bargain basement mask out of your pocket for weeks on end, everytime you enter a shop, has got to be worse for everyone than not wearing a mask. But the former is legal, the latter is not. It’s legislation for show rather than effect.


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: imtommygunn on September 15, 2020, 10:23:27 AM
Yeah the mask thing I more meant the issue people seem to have with control and "this is what they want" etc. The fact that people reuse etc and they could be worse for you yeah I get but it's the control argument I would put more in the conspiracy theory bracket.

Internet debating you are spot on with. Points you make and being described as being part of the far right etc illustrate exactly what you're saying on the personal attack stuff. Having an alternate view seems to be you're the far left or the far right depending on the view.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Hound on September 15, 2020, 10:28:25 AM
It’s all about perception.

Internet debating, almost without fail, ends up with increasingly personal attack on the poster/person rather than the subject matter. Describing a certain mindset or thought pattern as being that of a “conspiracy theorist” is the new endgame for full time debaters (having succeeded writing “fact” at the end of sentences, describing others’ thoughts as being “Karen from Facebook”, the straw man discourse, and the recent classic of describing anyone who can show weakness in your viewpoints as having Dunning Kruger).

——

The reason for the lack of trust in masks is simple enough. Continually taking the same bargain basement mask out of your pocket for weeks on end, everytime you enter a shop, has got to be worse for everyone than not wearing a mask. But the former is legal, the latter is not. It’s legislation for show rather than effect.

Legislators sometimes get blamed for treating the people like morons, and other times get blamed for not treating people like morons.

It was very clear early on that you treat masks like underwear. Wash after use.

There are people who believe they have a "constitutional right" not to wear a mask. There are others who wear a mask so that it doesn't cover their nose. There are people who don't wash their masks. All fookin eejits. That does not mean the legislation is just for show. The idiots should just be called out more.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 10:36:29 AM
“All fookjn eejits” Hound.

That’s absolutism, is it not? It really doesn’t help.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 10:37:17 AM
It’s all about perception.

Internet debating, almost without fail, ends up with increasingly personal attack on the poster/person rather than the subject matter. Describing a certain mindset or thought pattern as being that of a “conspiracy theorist” is the new endgame for full time debaters (having succeeded writing “fact” at the end of sentences, describing others’ thoughts as being “Karen from Facebook”, the straw man discourse, and the recent classic of describing anyone who can show weakness in your viewpoints as having Dunning Kruger).

——

The reason for the lack of trust in masks is simple enough. Continually taking the same bargain basement mask out of your pocket for weeks on end, everytime you enter a shop, has got to be worse for everyone than not wearing a mask. But the former is legal, the latter is not. It’s legislation for show rather than effect.

Legislators sometimes get blamed for treating the people like morons, and other times get blamed for not treating people like morons.

It was very clear early on that you treat masks like underwear. Wash after use.

There are people who believe they have a "constitutional right" not to wear a mask. There are others who wear a mask so that it doesn't cover their nose. There are people who don't wash their masks. All fookin eejits. That does not mean the legislation is just for show. The idiots should just be called out more.

It’s quite amazing and sad that you have to take the time to explain something so bleeding obvious.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 10:38:47 AM
The COVID stuff is interesting. There are a growing number of people who think it and the mask wearing in particular are conspiracies. I am not sure I can fully work out why that is thought. I think it's relating to control and the big brother type stuff.
Because there's a well funded worldwide right-wing war of disinformation and propaganda precisely to push this stuff

The aim of it is to destroy the concept of objective truth and leave people so completely and utterly confused that they turn to fascists peddling simplistic, easy and fake answers to what are in reality very complex problems

This stuff doesn't come out of nowhere, it's heavily pushed by those who have a lot to gain from it, be it fascist or aspiring fascist governments, their compliant media, their online bot and troll armies or online grifters out to get rich



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 10:41:40 AM
It used to be that people that believed in conspiracy theories were marginalised crackpots who might feature in a TV documentary or may be characterised in some drama series. Generally you didn't meet them in everyday life.  Now it seems like half of America now believes in some conspiracy theory or another (that may be an exaggeration). It doesn't seem to be as pervasive here, but I bet everyone on here knows someone who believes in some conspiracy theory.

Is the growth of this stuff via social media and the rubbishing of expert opinion going to take us back to the dark ages.

Discuss!

The US President rarely hears or sees a conspiracy theory that he doesn’t endorse, as it serves his needs in reinforcing the white grievance politics, nurtured for decades by the Republicans, that he has used as the basis of his political success.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 10:45:35 AM

One that never really gets much traction in the West is the Moscow Apartment Bombings.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings
This one is almost certainly true, it isn't a fringe conspiracy theory, the documented facts of the case squarely point to there being no other explanation other than that the Russian regime did it themselves in order to grease the path for Putin establish himself as a quasi-dictator and as a fake pretext to obliterate the Chechen rebels

Russia's very own Gulf of Tonkin or Iraqi WMD
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Hound on September 15, 2020, 10:54:50 AM
“All fookjn eejits” Hound.

That’s absolutism, is it not? It really doesn’t help.
More helpful than making excuses for the eejits who think they have a constitutional right to refuse to adhere to the rules of when/where to wear masks.

Or using the excuse that some eejits don't wash their masks, so therefore masks have no benefit!?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 11:09:42 AM
“All fookjn eejits” Hound.

That’s absolutism, is it not? It really doesn’t help.
More helpful than making excuses for the eejits who think they have a constitutional right to refuse to adhere to the rules of when/where to wear masks.

Or using the excuse that some eejits don't wash their masks, so therefore masks have no benefit!?

But Hound these decrees are coming from governments who throughout Covid have made confusing, strange and inconsistent decisions.

That you happen to agree with this particular one surely shouldn’t sway you to believe that it’s 100% the right decision?

Is there really no room to raise an eyebrow on this one? Must we really trust that Boris’s interpretation of the science is the correct interpretation? Cause that’s what I’m reading from you.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 15, 2020, 11:13:47 AM
Look it everyone knows theres no such thing as "Covid 19".
There's no "pandemic"
It's all a scam dreamed up by the World Government to enable 5G to be installed without anyone noticing.
Then Bill Gates will microchip everyone under the guise of vaccination so the Workd Governmennt can control us all.
Meanwhile the masks are all fitted with tracking devices.

But there are some smart people out there who arent falling for this.
They all wear their tin foil hats and are protected from it all.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 11:15:48 AM
It’s all about perception.

Internet debating, almost without fail, ends up with increasingly personal attack on the poster/person rather than the subject matter. Describing a certain mindset or thought pattern as being that of a “conspiracy theorist” is the new endgame for full time debaters (having succeeded writing “fact” at the end of sentences, describing others’ thoughts as being “Karen from Facebook”, the straw man discourse, and the recent classic of describing anyone who can show weakness in your viewpoints as having Dunning Kruger).

——

The reason for the lack of trust in masks is simple enough. Continually taking the same bargain basement mask out of your pocket for weeks on end, everytime you enter a shop, has got to be worse for everyone than not wearing a mask. But the former is legal, the latter is not. It’s legislation for show rather than effect.

Legislators sometimes get blamed for treating the people like morons, and other times get blamed for not treating people like morons.

It was very clear early on that you treat masks like underwear. Wash after use.

There are people who believe they have a "constitutional right" not to wear a mask. There are others who wear a mask so that it doesn't cover their nose. There are people who don't wash their masks. All fookin eejits. That does not mean the legislation is just for show. The idiots should just be called out more.

It’s quite amazing and sad that you have to take the time to explain something so bleeding obvious.

Whereas I think it’s quite amazing that you believe laws like this could be implemented without a substantial percentage of non-compliance, and quite sad that you are so sure of yourself that the ambivalent and the dissenters are wrong.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 11:20:19 AM
Look it everyone knows theres no such thing as "Covid 19".
There's no "pandemic"
It's all a scam dreamed up by the World Government to enable 5G to be installed without anyone noticing.
Then Bill Gates will microchip everyone under the guise of vaccination so the Workd Governmennt can control us all.
Meanwhile the masks are all fitted with tracking devices.

But there are some smart people out there who arent falling for this.
They all wear their tin foil hats and are protected from it all.
"WAKE UP SHEEPLE!"
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 15, 2020, 11:20:44 AM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 15, 2020, 11:25:08 AM
I'll tell you the biggest conspiracy.

If your car radio is down to nearly silent, you'll still be able to hear the McDonalds ad whistle no matter what.

Genius.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 15, 2020, 11:26:34 AM
Some pointers, just from my opinion...

* There is a difference between being intelligent and being educated. Being both is the better outcome, but I've came across in my life a few people whom are clearly intelligent but struggled to show much academically, whereas the opposite is also true; namely educated to degree level and above but clearly, to coin a phrase, "educated beyond their means" and struggle to show basic logic and reason comprehension beyond what they were taught at school, college or university. I'd put more trust in the former than the latter in my experience - though this excludes those whom say that their education came from "The University of Life and School of Hard Knocks types".

* A belief that all opinions are equal or even hold some sort of value. No they are not, and no they don't. This leads to a "balance fallacy" which badly taints a lot of journalistic output from otherwise fair but naive correspondents that want to be seen as "impartial".

* The transfer of online "chan-culture" and its evolvement into mainstream society. 4chan seems like an experiment whereby it proves that the more you act like an idiot, the greater the risk that you actually become one.

* An worrying increase in people ignoring evidence because it doesn't suit a personal narrative. "I reject your reality and substitute my own" to quote Adam Savage, whom said so with a dollop of sarcasm. Back in the 90's you had "I want to believe" - today it's "F*ck that! I'll believe what I want".

* A declining belief in taking at least some responsibility in ones actions and beliefs, always blaming someone or something else why something hasn't worked out. This is something that is affecting a lot of areas both socially, politically and in business, and is not just limited to "one side".

* Professional charlatans promising the world to the naive and the gullible. I shouldn't have to give examples, but it isn't something that is actually new - it's existed for centuries/millennia.

There's probably more, but it's too early in the day for me to think too much about it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 15, 2020, 11:27:09 AM
I'll tell you the biggest conspiracy.

If your car radio is down to nearly silent, you'll still be able to hear the McDonalds ad whistle no matter what.

Genius.

Means your half canine.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 11:28:28 AM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.
The current US and UK regimes are filled to the brim with liars, nutcases and conspiracy theorists

And yet conspiracy theorists tend to believe them implicitly, at least the nuttier stuff, which unfortunately is most stuff

Work that one out

But hey, actual truth and reason is now "elite" and "establishment", or some such nonsense

And these regimes filled with silver spoon fed white men brought up in the lap of luxury, are somehow "anti-elite" and "anti-establishment"

Or something like that



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 11:41:09 AM
It’s all about perception.

Internet debating, almost without fail, ends up with increasingly personal attack on the poster/person rather than the subject matter. Describing a certain mindset or thought pattern as being that of a “conspiracy theorist” is the new endgame for full time debaters (having succeeded writing “fact” at the end of sentences, describing others’ thoughts as being “Karen from Facebook”, the straw man discourse, and the recent classic of describing anyone who can show weakness in your viewpoints as having Dunning Kruger).

——

The reason for the lack of trust in masks is simple enough. Continually taking the same bargain basement mask out of your pocket for weeks on end, everytime you enter a shop, has got to be worse for everyone than not wearing a mask. But the former is legal, the latter is not. It’s legislation for show rather than effect.

Legislators sometimes get blamed for treating the people like morons, and other times get blamed for not treating people like morons.

It was very clear early on that you treat masks like underwear. Wash after use.

There are people who believe they have a "constitutional right" not to wear a mask. There are others who wear a mask so that it doesn't cover their nose. There are people who don't wash their masks. All fookin eejits. That does not mean the legislation is just for show. The idiots should just be called out more.

It’s quite amazing and sad that you have to take the time to explain something so bleeding obvious.

Whereas I think it’s quite amazing that you believe laws like this could be implemented without a substantial percentage of non-compliance, and quite sad that you are so sure of yourself that the ambivalent and the dissenters are wrong.

Where did I say or indicate a belief that the law would be issued without non-compliance? This is a thread about conspiracy theories.

As for the dissenters and the ambivalent, I’ve seen nothing from them to support opposition to mask wearing from a public health perspective. Masks aren’t perfect or the be-all and end-all, but along with social distancing, hand washing, contact tracing etc., they’re the best we can do for now with a disease transmitted by exhaled air. If there are morons who either don’t wash their reusable masks or continue to use dirty disposable ones, then maybe someone needs to teach them basic hygiene.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 15, 2020, 11:45:03 AM
I'll tell you the biggest conspiracy.

If your car radio is down to nearly silent, you'll still be able to hear the McDonalds ad whistle no matter what.

Genius.

Means your half canine.

An ex girlfriend some years ago said something along those lines too. It all makes sense now.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 11:50:14 AM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 11:53:57 AM
Given that a lot of the anti-mask loons tend to be reactionary religious right types, and misogynists, I wonder what their reaction would be to an astro-turf campaign for men to allowed walk around with their penises hanging out in full view

Sure why not extend it to the women - vagina visibiity for all

"Freedom for genitalia"
"The way nature intended"
"Underwear is a government conspiracy"
"Trousers = fascism"


QUESTION EVERYTING™
DO UR OWN RESERCH™
WAKE UP SHEEPLE™

GADDER AT 2PM AT DA CUSTOM HOUSE ON SATURDAY, BRING FLEGS, LOADSA FLEGS
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 15, 2020, 11:55:22 AM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
Indeed - put that question on a broader horizon and ask why should you trust say anyone or anything?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 11:59:53 AM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
Indeed - put that question on a broader horizon and ask why should you trust say anyone or anything?

That’s where credibility and expertise comes into it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 12:07:44 PM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
The most insidious conspiracy theories are things which take a grain of truth and then invent a fake narrative around that

QAnon and Pizzagate are very much of this ilk

Qanon and Pizzagate are obviously ludicrous - but the Epstein case - a political kompromat operation run by a paedophiile - was very real -  yet those who push QAnon and Pizzagate are cultists to a sexual predator, almost certainly serial rapist, and alleged paedophile who is heavily mixed up in the Epstein case - Donald Trump

QAnon and Pizzagate are projection pushed by those covering up sexual crimes

The only outside chance of a remedy for this is the truth about Epstein and everybody else involved with him

The anti-vaccine thing starts with grains of truth about medical malpractice, or lack of medical regulation in some areas and  pharmaceutical companies pushing opioids, things like that, and then builds a fantasy dystopian narrative based on that




Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on September 15, 2020, 12:11:23 PM
is the wearing of a mask not similar to wearing a gum shield or a seatbelt etc. maybe seatbelt is a better example as it protects you and others in the car. most of the time its not needed, however It reduces the risk of more serious injury if required. why are they not conspiracies?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 12:15:09 PM
It amuses me when people immediately shoot down anything looking like any sort of conspiracy theory.

But I’d ask them this: do you trust the UK/US (or indeed, any) government, and everything they tell you? There you have it then.

There’s a lot of ground between government misinformation and Pizzagate, chemtrails and vaccinations with 5G-activated tracking chips.
Indeed - put that question on a broader horizon and ask why should you trust say anyone or anything?
The whole point of the worldwide right-wing propaganda and disinformation war is to get people to believe in nothing, and to become completely cynical, yet gullible

If you believe in nothing, you lose all belief in the power of politics to effect any positive change in society

Life and society then becomes an eternal game of confusion, fear, imagined eternal threats and imagined moral panics

In this environment, no positive change is possible, only a retreat into an imagined past, a fantasy world, in which a dictator imposes "order"

The Russians are the masters of it

This short film by Adam Curtis from 2014 is instructive

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Od4MWs7qTr8
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 15, 2020, 12:20:29 PM
That’s where credibility and expertise comes into it.

Indeed. I'd prefer to pay more attention about oral hygiene from a dentist rather than someone who uses a piece of string and a door handle, at the risk of being one of the "sheeple".
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 15, 2020, 12:30:36 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on September 15, 2020, 12:49:48 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Would agree fully in that. The amount of ‘experts’ on the likes of Twitter is unreal. Recently there was a debate about the content of the GFA and some little Wannabe Englander was giving it loads about a political researcher and her knowledge of the GFA. She actually wrote one of the most comprehensive analysis is the document, your man had read something akin to the Executive Summary. He was insistent that she knew nothing about it and that he understood it better.

The internet fortunately has provided a sounding forum for all opinions, the internet unfortunately has provided a sounding forum for all opinions.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 12:54:20 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 01:05:09 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf (https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf)

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 01:26:00 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf (https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf)

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.

I'm not asking what they think. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. It stretches credibility that a troubled and declining country like Russia is manipulating like a puppet-master, elections and domestic political affairs in America and Britain. (I'd frankly be more worried about the Chinese.)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 01:31:59 PM
And then there's this: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/fianna-fail-td-says-russian-bots-seeking-to-influence-party-vote-on-government-deal-39290774.html
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 01:33:41 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

The Republican-led US Senate doesn't think so. Plenty of examples outlined in their report on the last presidential election.

https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf (https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/Report_Volume2.pdf)

Despite Moscow's denials, the direction and financial involvement of Russian oligarch Yevgeniy Prigozhin, as well as his close ties to high-level Russian government officials including President Vladimir Putin, point to significant Kremlin support, authorization, and direction of the IRA' s operations and goals.

I'm not asking what they think. I'd be interested in hearing what you think. It stretches credibility that a troubled and declining country like Russia is manipulating like a puppet-master, elections and domestic political affairs in America and Britain. (I'd frankly be more worried about the Chinese.)

It doesn't really matter what I think on this. I'm a nobody on the internet with no insight whatsoever beyond my limited knowledge of analysis put out by bodies such as intelligence agencies and investigative journalists.

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.

Of course the same goes for the Chinese, as you say.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 01:39:25 PM

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.


To what ends though?

The Chinese are awash with money and cutting-edge tech. Russia isn't. It's a dysfunctional and backward kip with a national fondness for corruption and dodgy leadership.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on September 15, 2020, 01:40:20 PM
Good read:

https://medium.com/discourse/the-dunning-kruger-effect-explains-why-society-is-so-screwed-up-1432aca90aa8

"The Dunning-Kruger Effect is the tendency for people to misjudge their abilities. People with less than average abilities tend to overestimate their true abilities, while those with higher than average abilities tend to not realize how much better they are. That is, some people are too stupid to know how stupid they are, while smart people assume most can do what they can."
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 01:50:37 PM

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.


To what ends though?

The Chinese are awash with money and cutting-edge tech. Russia isn't. It's a dysfunctional and backward kip with a national fondness for corruption and dodgy leadership.

Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 02:01:12 PM
Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.

I'm not an expert in geopolitics either which is why I'm trying to approach this from a logical angle. The above theory just seems a bit far-fetched to be credible, in my opinion. It isn't 1980 anymore and a change of US President or a bit of instability or trouble in America will have damn all effect in Russia.

Obama roasted Mitt Romney in 2012 for suggesting otherwise. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/20/flashback-obamas-debate-zinger-on-romneys-1980s-foreign-policy/
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 02:06:42 PM
A more learned opinion:

From person who works for CNA, a non-profit consultant for US Navy and others
https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-does-russia-use-disinformation (https://www.lawfareblog.com/why-does-russia-use-disinformation)

NPR report
https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/878169027/study-exposes-russia-disinformation-campaign-that-operated-in-the-shadows-for-6-t on a study released this summer (https://www.npr.org/2020/06/16/878169027/study-exposes-russia-disinformation-campaign-that-operated-in-the-shadows-for-6-t on a study released this summer)

The content focused mostly on discrediting Ukraine and bolstering Russia. Some posts attempted to link Hillary Clinton to murder or tried to disparage German Chancellor Angela Merkel as an alcoholic. The campaign also worked to spread other baseless rumors, like that the U.S. was attempting to stoke a revolution in Azerbaijan. The accounts also created forged documents purporting to be written by congressional committees and fake Twitter messages, including a fabricated tweet that appears as if U.S. Sen. Marco Rubio is accusing British authorities of spying on President Trump
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 15, 2020, 02:08:35 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.

Isn't this Putin stuff a conspiracy theory of its own?

There you go. I'm just some flute on the Internet. Please apply that filter elsewhere.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 15, 2020, 02:09:56 PM
Ah, Flat Earthers. There is another conspiracy that I struggle to understand what drives people to believe.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 02:16:11 PM
Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.

I'm not an expert in geopolitics either which is why I'm trying to approach this from a logical angle. The above theory just seems a bit far-fetched to be credible, in my opinion. It isn't 1980 anymore and a change of US President or a bit of instability or trouble in America will have damn all effect in Russia.

Obama roasted Mitt Romney in 2012 for suggesting otherwise. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/03/20/flashback-obamas-debate-zinger-on-romneys-1980s-foreign-policy/

Presidential debates are all about theatre and "zingers" and are NOT forums for nuanced discussion of policy (wait till next month!). And at the time, Russia was simply not a large factor in US politics, at least in comparison to Al Qaida and the Arab Spring and so on.

You're entitled to your opinion on whether or not this internet disinformation campaign would benefit the Russians.

I find it convincing. Little effort in terms of investment of logistics, personnel and money (especially relative to times past); plenty of upside in terms of sewing discord in the target country, hopefully to one's own benefit.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 02:21:18 PM
Again all very far-fetched. Those "rumours" are the kind of stuff that you'd see in the Sunday Sport or the National Enquirer. If that's the level Russia are at, then we've little to worry about.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 02:27:31 PM

And at the time, Russia was simply not a large factor in US politics,

It still isn't.

Quote
You're entitled to your opinion on whether or not this internet disinformation campaign would benefit the Russians.

I find it convincing. Little effort in terms of investment of logistics, personnel and money (especially relative to times past); plenty of upside in terms of sewing discord in the target country, hopefully to one's own benefit.

"Hopefully" is hardly convincing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 02:28:33 PM

But, I don't personally see anything credibility-stretching in the concept of Putin and Russia trying to sow discord in the US and Britain/EU, if it will sway or weaken the influence of those countries internationally.


To what ends though?

The Chinese are awash with money and cutting-edge tech. Russia isn't. It's a dysfunctional and backward kip with a national fondness for corruption and dodgy leadership.

Like I said, I'm far from an expert on geopolitics, but if Putin can stoke division inside the US, especially if it ends up in someone like Trump in power, it could help diminish the influence of the US, especially in Russia's own neighbourhood. It probably also doesn't hurt Putin himself if things in the US end up tipping over into violence as we've seen happen this summer. He can say that western-style democracy maybe isn't all that its cracked up to be, which again, also might not hurt Russia in those former Soviet states either.

What the last six years has shown is the invaluable nature of the post-World War II western order, the EU and NATO, and that without these things, or without these things functioning well, we are in big trouble

Europe is made up of small countries with what on their own are relatively small militaries but together, and particularly in alliance with the US, they are formidable

And this isn't about warmongering or anything like it - it's about keeping the wolf from the door, and Russia is most certainly the proverbial wolf

What really needs to happen is for there to be a concerted intelligence and online security effort to defeat the Russians, and especially to target dirty Russian money, but this at the moment seems miles away, and the gates are currently wide open, not least because Russia is expert at exploiting existing divisions in western societies, and has relentlessly courted the far right in those societies - while libertarian capitalists have long had strategies for how to divide societies in order to implement an anarcho-capitalist agenda - this goes back to the ideology of James Buchanan and the Koch Brothers

Brexit and Trump were projects which Russia promoted heavily to split this western order apart because it has its eye on a policy called Eurasia, which is an alliance of basically fascist or quasi-fascist, effectively mafia states, with pliant, corrupt rulers (like Viktor Orban in Hungary), with Russia at its heart - effectively a new Warsaw Pact but fascist rather than communist

Timothy Snyder's articles about "The Politics of Eternity" versus "The Politics of Inevitability" are well worth reading, and I would highly recommend his book "The Road To Unfreedom"

Peter Pomerantsev and Masha Gessen have also done really good stuff on Russia, I believe Catherine Belton's new book is superb

The "politics of eternity" is basically a fascist, almost 1984-like society in terms of ideology - eternal made up threats, eternal made up enemies, eternal fake moral panics - and just look at how Trump and Johnson, who are politicians of eternity, have taken that ball and run with it

The "politics of inevitability" was the fatal mistake of western societies - the belief in exceptionalism, best exemplified by the belief in American exceptionalism, of unique American virtue, and the wrong belief in an inevitable arc of eternal progress, the infamous "end of history"

The paradox of tolerance is that you cannot be tolerant of intolerance - because intolerance, in the shape of fascism, will portray itself as just one more strand of legitimate political thought - but it isn't - it never is - it wants to destroy democracy

Fascism is an actual eternal threat and history proves that

The politics of eternity exploited and defeated the politics of inevitability, for now at least

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/16/vladimir-putin-russia-politics-of-eternity-timothy-snyder





Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 02:46:57 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.
It does, but then occasionally the conspiracy mob wheel out somebody who is credentialled but has appalling political opinions

Yer wan Dolores Cahill is an example of this

I think it's obvious to anybody who has followed this that Cahill is overwhelmingly driven by appalling politics rather than any genuine intellectual curiosity, and anything I've heard about her as an academic is extremely negative - she's apparently very lazy, uninterested in students and widely hated at UCD - but credentialled crackpots lend a fake veneer of respectability which can sometimes be hard to combat

This seems to be a particular problem in economics, where corporate interests fund a huge amount of tenured positions and "institutes" which lend an academic veneer to nakedly political projects
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 02:52:36 PM

And at the time, Russia was simply not a large factor in US politics,

It still isn't.

Except to the extent that it may be influencing it through disinformation.

Quote
You're entitled to your opinion on whether or not this internet disinformation campaign would benefit the Russians.

I find it convincing. Little effort in terms of investment of logistics, personnel and money (especially relative to times past); plenty of upside in terms of sewing discord in the target country, hopefully to one's own benefit.

"Hopefully" is hardly convincing.

Not when it comes to relatively small investment, especially one that comes with the added benefit of your being able to diminish the risk to yourself through the very confusion you're trying to sew.

And is any political decision, whether foreign or domestic, not "hopeful" in terms of benefit to one's own interests? There are no certainties.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 03:06:30 PM


Not when it comes to relatively small investment, especially one that comes with the added benefit of your being able to diminish the risk to yourself through the very confusion you're trying to sew.

And is any political decision, whether foreign or domestic, not "hopeful" in terms of benefit to one's own interests? There are no certainties.

How, though?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 03:07:01 PM
I think a large part of this comes down to the internet comment culture. The idea that your opinion has the same weight as an expert in their field needs to stop. By all means question orthadoxy, but the source material is always dogshit, which is where the Moscow led disinformation steps in.

There is a deliberate attempt to end our Western reason led culture and the political system that underpins it.
It does, but then occasionally the conspiracy mob wheel out somebody who is credentialled but has appalling political opinions

Yer wan Dolores Cahill is an example of this

I think it's obvious to anybody who has followed this that Cahill is overwhelmingly driven by appalling politics rather than any genuine intellectual curiosity, and anything I've heard about her as an academic is extremely negative - she's apparently very lazy, uninterested in students and widely hated at UCD - but credentialled crackpots lend a fake veneer of respectability which can sometimes be hard to combat

This seems to be a particular problem in economics, where corporate interests fund a huge amount of tenured positions and "institutes" which lend an academic veneer to nakedly political projects

She probably brought a boatload of grant money into UCD and so her political interests, presumably which unveiled themselves later, are indulged.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 03:15:10 PM


Not when it comes to relatively small investment, especially one that comes with the added benefit of your being able to diminish the risk to yourself through the very confusion you're trying to sew.

And is any political decision, whether foreign or domestic, not "hopeful" in terms of benefit to one's own interests? There are no certainties.

How, though?

In the US at least, the right wing is hostile to the idea that Russian disinformation had or has any influence on the dissemination of political information and ideas on social media and thus in the culture and country. When a large part of the country you're targeting has a vested interest in denying the reality of your campaign, then that should limit the risk of retaliation and being held accountable, should it not?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 03:20:15 PM


Not when it comes to relatively small investment, especially one that comes with the added benefit of your being able to diminish the risk to yourself through the very confusion you're trying to sew.

And is any political decision, whether foreign or domestic, not "hopeful" in terms of benefit to one's own interests? There are no certainties.

How, though?

In the US at least, the right wing is hostile to the idea that Russian disinformation had or has any influence on the dissemination of political information and ideas on social media and thus in the culture and country. When a large part of the country you're targeting has a vested interest in denying the reality of your campaign, then that should limit the risk of retaliation and being held accountable, should it not?

That's a circular argument though. And your talk of "the reality" is a bit much when you can't come up with one tangible, concrete motive on Russia's part why it might be happening in the first place. 

Why risk retaliation etc unless there's a major benefit to be had?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 03:33:08 PM


Not when it comes to relatively small investment, especially one that comes with the added benefit of your being able to diminish the risk to yourself through the very confusion you're trying to sew.

And is any political decision, whether foreign or domestic, not "hopeful" in terms of benefit to one's own interests? There are no certainties.

How, though?

In the US at least, the right wing is hostile to the idea that Russian disinformation had or has any influence on the dissemination of political information and ideas on social media and thus in the culture and country. When a large part of the country you're targeting has a vested interest in denying the reality of your campaign, then that should limit the risk of retaliation and being held accountable, should it not?

That's a circular argument though. And your talk of "the reality" is a bit much when you can't come up with one tangible, concrete motive on Russia's part why it might be happening in the first place. 

Why risk retaliation etc unless there's a major benefit to be had?

I posted a link earlier (CNA person) that laid out a much more comprehensive argument on the benefits to Russia than I ever could. If you don't find her points convincing, you're free to respond.

I'm not seeing the circular argument problem.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 03:47:30 PM
Russia is heavily involved in amplifying QAnon

QAnon has incredibly disturbing overtones

The ideology of the Russian regime is eerily similar to Nazism, and the historic background of Russia as a country is eerily similar to pre-World War II Germany

And the ideology of the US right heavily overlapped with it

When Russia launched its invasion of Ukraine in 2014, it used a pretext identical to that of the Nazi invasion of the Sudetenland, yet also used American confederate paraphernalia - it based the flag of the short lived "Novorossiya" project on the confederate flag, the stars 'n' bars

Ideas used to move in a west to east direction, now they move in an east to west direction

https://www.justsecurity.org/72339/qanon-is-a-nazi-cult-rebranded/

Quote
QAnon is a Nazi Cult, Rebranded

by Gregory Stanton
September 9, 2020

A secret cabal is taking over the world. They kidnap children, slaughter, and eat them to gain power from their blood. They control high positions in government, banks, international finance, the news media, and the church. They want to disarm the police. They promote homosexuality and pedophilia. They plan to mongrelize the white race so it will lose its essential power.

Does this conspiracy theory sound familiar? It is. The same narrative has been repackaged by QAnon.

I have studied and worked to prevent genocide for forty years. Genocide Watch and the Alliance Against Genocide, the first international anti-genocide coalition, see such hate-filled conspiracy theories as early warning signs of deadly genocidal violence.

The plot, described above, was the conspiracy “revealed” in the most influential anti-Jewish pamphlet of all time. It was called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It was written by Russian anti-Jewish propagandists around 1902. It collected myths about a Jewish plot to take over the world that had existed for hundreds of years. Central to its mythology was the Blood Libel, which claimed that Jews kidnapped and slaughtered Christian children and drained their blood to mix in the dough for matzos consumed on Jewish holidays.

....
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 03:56:00 PM
I'm not seeing the circular argument problem.

The supposition that a target of malpractice mightn't be too bothered about it isn't sufficient motive for a perpetrator to engage in it. There has to be an actual benefit to them, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

I posted a link earlier (CNA person) that laid out a much more comprehensive argument on the benefits to Russia than I ever could. If you don't find her points convincing, you're free to respond.


It's very long. I'll confine myself to a short response.

Quote
Goal #1: Restore Russia to Great Power Status
Bots spreading National Enquirer-style tittle tattle is the polar opposite of what Great Powers do. Anyway the dream or nightmare of Russia being a Great Power died in 1989 if not earlier.

Quote
Goal #2: Preserve Russia’s Sphere of Influence
The US is not within Russia's sphere of influence. It's half a world away from Moscow.

Quote
Goal #3: Protect the Putin Regime
I don't see any credible argument here. Can you?

Quote
Goal #4: Enhance Russia’s Military Effectiveness
Again troll farms and the like are the polar opposite of military effectiveness.

I don't see any clear, tangible benefit to Russia in any of that. If there was something like access to oil, fair enough, but the 4 goals listed are thin gruel.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 04:12:22 PM
The total denialism from a particular poster here in the face of many mountains of evidence is eerily reminiscent of the deniers of the 1930s

Totally and utterly predictable from that particular poster

It's reminiscent of the cyborgs in Westworld: "Doesn't look like anything to me"

Such deniers generally feign a cool detachment from the subject at hand when in reality they are deeply invested in the denialism of it - be it Holocaust denial, denial of the link between smoking and cancer, denial of the climate crisis, denial of racism, denial of the link between wealth inequality caused by neo-liberal economic policy and the contemporary fascist turn etc.

Denialism of the fascist takeovers of and threats to democratic societies is rife everywhere on the internet these days

"Move on, show's over, folks, nathin' to see here"

Denialism is perhaps the most insidious form of gaslighting, and one that has a very long and shameful history

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 04:14:46 PM
The total denialism from a particular poster here in the face of many mountains of evidence is eerily reminiscent of the deniers of the 1930s



I'll say what I like thanks.
If I'm breaking posting guidelines, report me to the mods.
If I'm breaking the law of the land, off you go to the Gardai.

Otherwise I'm ignoring you.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Taylor on September 15, 2020, 04:32:32 PM
The total denialism from a particular poster here in the face of many mountains of evidence is eerily reminiscent of the deniers of the 1930s



I'll say what I like thanks.
If I'm breaking posting guidelines, report me to the mods.
If I'm breaking the law of the land, off you go to the Gardai.

Otherwise I'm ignoring you.

 ;D
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 04:41:43 PM
I'm not seeing the circular argument problem.

The supposition that a target of malpractice mightn't be too bothered about it isn't sufficient motive for a perpetrator to engage in it. There has to be an actual benefit to them, otherwise they wouldn't bother.

I didn’t say it was sufficient motive. I said that it was an “added benefit”.

I posted a link earlier (CNA person) that laid out a much more comprehensive argument on the benefits to Russia than I ever could. If you don't find her points convincing, you're free to respond.

It's very long. I'll confine myself to a short response.

Quote
Goal #1: Restore Russia to Great Power Status
Bots spreading National Enquirer-style tittle tattle is the polar opposite of what Great Powers do. Anyway the dream or nightmare of Russia being a Great Power died in 1989 if not earlier.
History didn’t end in 1989. And what DO great powers do these days? Assassinating elected presidents and prime ministers and fomenting rebellions is very 20th century. Invading and occupying countries in the 2000s was probably the tail end of that, at least in the US.

Quote
Goal #2: Preserve Russia’s Sphere of Influence
The US is not within Russia's sphere of influence. It's half a world away from Moscow.
Seriously? NATO and western democracy is right on it’s doorstep.

Quote
Goal #3: Protect the Putin Regime
I don't see any credible argument here. Can you?
Yes. Unless you think the Russian system of oligarchy has nothing to fear from a democratic uprising.

Quote
Goal #4: Enhance Russia’s Military Effectiveness
Again troll farms and the like are the polar opposite of military effectiveness.
The Russians are never going to go to war with the US. And vice versa. So it doesn’t really matter how effective internet disinformation is in comparison to military effectiveness. All that matters is whether it is effective in itself, and given the relatively low investment and risk, worth the effort.

I don't see any clear, tangible benefit to Russia in any of that. If there was something like access to oil, fair enough, but the 4 goals listed are thin gruel.
In terms of the way she laid it out, which ultimately all comes down to Putin staying in power, I find it a good argument.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 15, 2020, 05:41:38 PM
So where are the so called irish republican paramilitarys who claim to be left leaning why are they allowing the right to rise in irelannd whats going on.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 15, 2020, 05:43:20 PM
History didnt end in 1989. And what DO great powers do these days? Assassinating elected presidents and prime ministers and fomenting rebellions is very 20th century. Invading and occupying countries in the 2000s was probably the tail end of that, at least in the US.

Russia has been a wreck since 1989, certainly not a great power.


Seriously? NATO and western democracy is right on it’s doorstep.
America isn't.

Quote
Unless you think the Russian system of oligarchy has nothing to fear from a democratic uprising.

And the link from that to Trump & Brexit?

Quote
The Russians are never going to go to war with the US. And vice versa. So it doesn’t really matter how effective internet disinformation is in comparison to military effectiveness. All that matters is whether it is effective in itself, and given the relatively low investment and risk, worth the effort.
But she specifically mentioned military effectiveness.

Quote
In terms of the way she laid it out, which ultimately all comes down to Putin staying in power, I find it a good argument.

There we differ.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 15, 2020, 06:07:27 PM
So where are the so called irish republican paramilitarys who claim to be left leaning why are they allowing the right to rise in irelannd whats going on.

You want them to go out and shoot them?

The problem is their numbers remain miniscule but they seem to have fooled a load of well meaning turnips into going out and marching for covid. Last Saturdays mess will damage that and whenever covid does slow down we will see if the alliance holds.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 15, 2020, 06:38:47 PM
Again all very far-fetched. Those "rumours" are the kind of stuff that you'd see in the Sunday Sport or the National Enquirer. If that's the level Russia are at, then we've little to worry about.
They even tried to rig the last FF leadership election. We know they were involved in Brexit and getting Trump in.

Even if they fail the fact that theyy are undermining democracy is enough in itself. But when they win the fundamentally weaken the west
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 06:49:38 PM
So where are the so called irish republican paramilitarys who claim to be left leaning why are they allowing the right to rise in irelannd whats going on.

You want them to go out and shoot them?

The problem is their numbers remain miniscule but they seem to have fooled a load of well meaning turnips into going out and marching for covid. Last Saturdays mess will damage that and whenever covid does slow down we will see if the alliance holds.
I don't think it will damage it to be honest - there was already rioting at one of the previous far right rallies at the Customs House on August 22nd and yet the crowds still increased for last Saturday

These "well meaning turnips" are already on the spectrum that inevitably leads to the far right

They're radicalised by a deep cynicism, anger and gullibility, and that will inevitably be turned against ethnic minorities and immigrants

The entirely made up propaganda about the fire in Balbriggan was the clearest example yet of how the far right see turning white working class people against ethnic minorities and immigrants through a blizzard of lies as their go to strategy

Reporting of these far right rallies so far has not framed the message effectively about what they really are - in several cases reporting has actually been quite favourable to them for those who skim read headlines -  this is a pattern that seems to be repeated over and over again across different countries - a false legitimacy is bestowed on them by negligent reporting
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2020, 07:21:26 PM
History didnt end in 1989. And what DO great powers do these days? Assassinating elected presidents and prime ministers and fomenting rebellions is very 20th century. Invading and occupying countries in the 2000s was probably the tail end of that, at least in the US.

Russia has been a wreck since 1989, certainly not a great power.

I never said it was. But the point of the piece was that it aspires to be.

Seriously? NATO and western democracy is right on it’s doorstep.
America isn't.

You deny that the US has a lot of influence on NATO and Europe? That Russia has been seriously concerned with NATO expansion and enlargement of the EU into eastern Europe?

Quote
Unless you think the Russian system of oligarchy has nothing to fear from a democratic uprising.

And the link from that to Trump & Brexit?

Western democracy looking chaotic and disfunctional would hardly lend inspiration to democratic hopefuls in Russia, would it?

Quote
The Russians are never going to go to war with the US. And vice versa. So it doesn’t really matter how effective internet disinformation is in comparison to military effectiveness. All that matters is whether it is effective in itself, and given the relatively low investment and risk, worth the effort.
But she specifically mentioned military effectiveness.

Mea culpa. I thought you were making a more general point, not referring to piece in the article.

Again, on that, her points about disinformation aiding Russia's military outlook seems perfectly logical to me, particularly polarization blunting how a country could respond.

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 15, 2020, 09:14:28 PM
So where are the so called irish republican paramilitarys who claim to be left leaning why are they allowing the right to rise in irelannd whats going on.

You want them to go out and shoot them?

The problem is their numbers remain miniscule but they seem to have fooled a load of well meaning turnips into going out and marching for covid. Last Saturdays mess will damage that and whenever covid does slow down we will see if the alliance holds.
I don't think it will damage it to be honest - there was already rioting at one of the previous far right rallies at the Customs House on August 22nd and yet the crowds still increased for last Saturday

These "well meaning turnips" are already on the spectrum that inevitably leads to the far right

They're radicalised by a deep cynicism, anger and gullibility, and that will inevitably be turned against ethnic minorities and immigrants

The entirely made up propaganda about the fire in Balbriggan was the clearest example yet of how the far right see turning white working class people against ethnic minorities and immigrants through a blizzard of lies as their go to strategy

Reporting of these far right rallies so far has not framed the message effectively about what they really are - in several cases reporting has actually been quite favourable to them for those who skim read headlines -  this is a pattern that seems to be repeated over and over again across different countries - a false legitimacy is bestowed on them by negligent reporting

There seems to be negative feedback about that Donegal nutter, lots walked away when he started going on about replacement theory and praying. Three marches at the same time? They will fall apart as they always do.

The real problem is the Loyalist link up and the rent a mob they bring.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 10:34:47 PM
So where are the so called irish republican paramilitarys who claim to be left leaning why are they allowing the right to rise in irelannd whats going on.

You want them to go out and shoot them?

The problem is their numbers remain miniscule but they seem to have fooled a load of well meaning turnips into going out and marching for covid. Last Saturdays mess will damage that and whenever covid does slow down we will see if the alliance holds.
I don't think it will damage it to be honest - there was already rioting at one of the previous far right rallies at the Customs House on August 22nd and yet the crowds still increased for last Saturday

These "well meaning turnips" are already on the spectrum that inevitably leads to the far right

They're radicalised by a deep cynicism, anger and gullibility, and that will inevitably be turned against ethnic minorities and immigrants

The entirely made up propaganda about the fire in Balbriggan was the clearest example yet of how the far right see turning white working class people against ethnic minorities and immigrants through a blizzard of lies as their go to strategy

Reporting of these far right rallies so far has not framed the message effectively about what they really are - in several cases reporting has actually been quite favourable to them for those who skim read headlines -  this is a pattern that seems to be repeated over and over again across different countries - a false legitimacy is bestowed on them by negligent reporting

There seems to be negative feedback about that Donegal nutter, lots walked away when he started going on about replacement theory and praying. Three marches at the same time? They will fall apart as they always do.

The real problem is the Loyalist link up and the rent a mob they bring.

I think this is an angle where Sinn Fein people could have a positive effect by highlighting that

I think over time however the fascists could weed out those who are embarrassing them, or a more "respectable", "presentable" version of fascism could emerge with pretty much the same ideology, just slicker - they'll publicly separate themselves from the McConnells and O'Dohertys etc. and portray themselves as  fake "moderates"

I can't stand nationalism as a concept, yet Sinn Fein's nationalism is actually a key defender against the far right here because they're one of the few parties in Europe that combine nationalism with a broadly left, anti-racist stance
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 15, 2020, 11:04:05 PM
ive heard some say the devout catholic thing from mcconnel is all an act but ive heard some say its real. Was mcconnel a former donegal football at minor level.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 15, 2020, 11:30:52 PM
ive heard some say the devout catholic thing from mcconnel is all an act but ive heard some say its real. Was mcconnel a former donegal football at minor level.
He ran onto the pitch at the end of last year's Donegal county final shouting "Soros" into the face of Eamonn McGee in front of his wife and child
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 16, 2020, 03:49:23 AM
There is one on facebook saying varadkers real mom is miriam o calaghan  who is hitlers child via ivf  and hitler is the grandson of baron rothschild so varadker is a hitler and a rotschild  and that was not satire.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 16, 2020, 10:47:42 AM
ive heard some say the devout catholic thing from mcconnel is all an act but ive heard some say its real. Was mcconnel a former donegal football at minor level.

He's a lunatic. Viciously and loudly homophobic. There's nothing Catholic or Christian about that.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 16, 2020, 11:02:24 AM
What about Hitler escaping Germany before the Russians got to him in Berlin.

There was a show called Hunting Hitler, I only watched a few episodes - mostly pie in the sky stuff but they did uncover some interesting things from what I saw.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: johnnycool on September 16, 2020, 11:06:41 AM
What about Hitler escaping Germany before the Russians got to him in Berlin.

There was a show called Hunting Hitler, I only watched a few episodes - mostly pie in the sky stuff but they did uncover some interesting things from what I saw.

He holded up in Argentina after escaping in a submarine.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: nrico2006 on September 16, 2020, 11:15:51 AM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 16, 2020, 11:29:53 AM
ive heard some say the devout catholic thing from mcconnel is all an act but ive heard some say its real. Was mcconnel a former donegal football at minor level.

He's a lunatic. Viciously and loudly homophobic. There's nothing Catholic or Christian about that.

Oh dear
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 12:29:34 PM
ive heard some say the devout catholic thing from mcconnel is all an act but ive heard some say its real. Was mcconnel a former donegal football at minor level.
He ran onto the pitch at the end of last year's Donegal county final shouting "Soros" into the face of Eamonn McGee in front of his wife and child

I never heard of this McConnell whackjob until you boys mentioned him here. f**k me!

I see a few tweets from Eamon about him last year. Called him a "head the ball". Haven't really heard that label outside Donegal. Glad to see its being kept alive!

https://twitter.com/eamonmcgee/status/1148226308364783617?lang=en (https://twitter.com/eamonmcgee/status/1148226308364783617?lang=en)

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: imtommygunn on September 16, 2020, 12:31:25 PM
I thought head the ball was a belfast saying lol.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: oakleaflad on September 16, 2020, 12:39:46 PM
I thought head the ball was a belfast saying lol.
Very common in Derry too, at least I know I've used it myself.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on September 16, 2020, 12:40:33 PM
Head the ball, header is widely used...
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 12:44:42 PM
I haven't lived in the north, so I'd no idea whether its used up there. Definitely never heard it while living in Dublin for quite a number of years.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on September 16, 2020, 12:52:07 PM
I haven't lived in the north, so I'd no idea whether its used up there. Definitely never heard it while living in Dublin for quite a number of years.

Head case would be another option....
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: laoislad on September 16, 2020, 01:16:21 PM
I thought head the ball was a belfast saying lol.
We always used to say it where Im from.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rudi on September 16, 2020, 01:28:09 PM
Sheep dog man ;D
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 16, 2020, 02:37:46 PM
Obviously open to correction, but was it not confirmed via his teeth that he died in 1945? Of course that comes from the Russians who have had them ever since.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 02:40:10 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 16, 2020, 03:04:38 PM
He escaped to Argentina.
He is now around 130 years old, goes by the alias Donald Trump.....
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 16, 2020, 03:08:04 PM
He escaped to Argentina.
He is now around 130 years old, goes by the alias Donald Trump.....

Explains the tan.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on September 16, 2020, 03:10:08 PM
I haven't lived in the north, so I'd no idea whether its used up there. Definitely never heard it while living in Dublin for quite a number of years.

I grew up in Dublin.  Very common expression on much of the north side.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 03:39:23 PM
I haven't lived in the north, so I'd no idea whether its used up there. Definitely never heard it while living in Dublin for quite a number of years.

I grew up in Dublin.  Very common expression on much of the north side.

I was a southside resident. :)
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: imtommygunn on September 16, 2020, 03:44:22 PM
http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/09/16/news/retired-derry-gp-contacted-by-regulator-over-her-opposition-to-masks-2067945/?param=ds441rif44T (http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2020/09/16/news/retired-derry-gp-contacted-by-regulator-over-her-opposition-to-masks-2067945/?param=ds441rif44T)

Not quite a conspiracy theory but interesting read on the lines of masks and death counts which both seemed to be, viewed at least, as a conspiracy theory of sorts.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2020, 03:50:24 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: armaghniac on September 16, 2020, 03:54:00 PM
He escaped to Argentina.
He is now around 130 years old, goes by the alias Donald Trump.....

He is only hiding because he cannot pay the gas bill.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: hardstation on September 16, 2020, 05:07:47 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 06:41:50 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.

All right then.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2020, 08:22:53 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 08:39:42 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?

The accepted history is that he and Eva Braun committed suicide in the bunker. Other hangers-on such as Goebbels and his wife did likewise, while the likes of Bormann tried to escape the bunker but committed suicide to avoid capture by the Red Army. 

Where's the proof that its all bullshit? Why should we take you seriously at the expense of historians?

And how do actually you function in life when everything is a conspiracy?

Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2020, 08:50:31 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?

The accepted history is that he and Eva Braun committed suicide in the bunker. Other hangers-on such as Goebbels and his wife did likewise, while the likes of Bormann tried to escape the bunker but committed suicide to avoid capture by the Red Army. 

Where's the proof that its all bullshit? Why should we take you seriously at the expense of historians?

And how do actually you function in life when everything is a conspiracy?

There’s the problem with that. Sure historians tell us Oswald shot Kennedy. Doesn’t mean it’s true.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on September 16, 2020, 08:58:34 PM
There is a difference sometimes between accepted history and actual facts. It was accepted history that the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 was mass bombers but they were not. The difficulty you have about history is that it is written by the victor. The likely story is that Hitler died as believed but that does not mean there is a possibility that it was part of a cover up as part of the deal done to end the war. The further we go from historical events the less likely that the real ‘truth’ comes out. Sometimes you have to accept things as told but be skeptically curious at the same time.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: hardstation on September 16, 2020, 09:03:05 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?
I don’t have any and it’s possible he didn’t. There’s a massive jump between that and “he certainly didn’t” though so over to you to do some explaining.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: michaelg on September 16, 2020, 09:38:49 PM
He escaped to Argentina.
He is now around 130 years old, goes by the alias Donald Trump.....

He is only hiding because he cannot pay the gas bill.
Dreadful comment.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 16, 2020, 09:44:16 PM
There is a difference sometimes between accepted history and actual facts. It was accepted history that the Guildford 4 and Birmingham 6 was mass bombers but they were not. The difficulty you have about history is that it is written by the victor. The likely story is that Hitler died as believed but that does not mean there is a possibility that it was part of a cover up as part of the deal done to end the war. The further we go from historical events the less likely that the real ‘truth’ comes out. Sometimes you have to accept things as told but be skeptically curious at the same time.

Of course. But there’s a big difference between healthy skepticism and calling everything and anything false because.... well just because. Given that conspiracy theories are generally half-baked ideas based on cherry picked morsels of evidence while ignoring everything else, they’re not owed any serious consideration.

If Benny wants to lay out the case for Hitler not having died in the bunker, he is free to do so. Just saying it’s bullshit and leaving it at that doesn’t really wash.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Roesider on September 16, 2020, 09:53:48 PM
One of the most recent ridiculous conspiracy theories was that the Obama's had Joan Rivers bumped off for making derogatory remarks.

Still can't explain this though. Very weird.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/RaM9zK10cDy5/
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: BennyCake on September 16, 2020, 10:00:41 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?
I don’t have any and it’s possible he didn’t. There’s a massive jump between that and “he certainly didn’t” though so over to you to do some explaining.

I have looked into this, there were reports that they weren’t Hitler and Braun’s bodies. There were no photos, They were badly burnt, ‘Hitler’s’ body was smaller, probably a woman’s body . And fair enough, so ‘certainly’ was just a figure of speech as I just don’t believe they died in their bunker, but  no  matter what I say on it, it will be rebuffed by what the ‘historians’ say.  Same as JFK, I’d imagine most people don’t believe the Oswald story, but the whole thing was covered up so much, evidence missing etc etc that the real story will always be shot down, no pun intended.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 16, 2020, 10:31:38 PM
I haven't done any great research into the Lockerbie bomb but on the face of it it seems fairly reasonable to me to think that Lybia wasn't behind it at all, that yer man Megrahi was framed or given up by the Lybians because of geopolitical necessities, and that it was Iran or perhaps the Iran-Syria-Palestine axis that was behind it, I'm sure Robert Fisk once wrote that some guy from the Popular Front For The Liberation of Palestine carried it out

Iranian involvement has always made sense because the Americans shot down an Iranian civilian airliner less than six months previously with the loss of 290 lives

Adam Curtis's documentaries tell us that western policy as regards Gaddafi's Lybia was a giant fraud for three decades, that Lybia was framed as a global supervillain based on nothing other than expediency - in reality Gaddafi was seen as a joke by the Americans and the British - and that Gaddafi himself was happy to assume the role of scourge of the west as it helped to prop him up at home, to foster a cult of personality around him

Then in the 2000s, Bush and Blair did a sudden volte face for their own personal reasons to notch a rare but fake "win" in the failing "War On Terror" and decided to bring Gaddafi in from the cold, which again suited Gaddafi

And that Hafez al-Assad was the real driving force behind a string of terrorist attacks in the west or against Western military forces in the 1980s
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 16, 2020, 10:34:40 PM
What evidence is there that Hitler did die in Germany?

Absolutely none.

I’m not sure about him heading to Argentina, but he certainly didn’t top himself in his bunker.

Based on what?

Using my brain.
Hmm, I think I’ve found the problem.

Where’s the proof he did?

The accepted history is that he and Eva Braun committed suicide in the bunker. Other hangers-on such as Goebbels and his wife did likewise, while the likes of Bormann tried to escape the bunker but committed suicide to avoid capture by the Red Army. 

Where's the proof that its all bullshit? Why should we take you seriously at the expense of historians?

And how do actually you function in life when everything is a conspiracy?

There’s the problem with that. Sure historians tell us Oswald shot Kennedy. Doesn’t mean it’s true.
Pretty much everything we know about it says Oswald shot Kennedy and that he acted alone
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 16, 2020, 10:41:01 PM
Can I suggest that if you've a few minutes to kill to read up on the Wikipedia article and do a Web search on the Bielefeld Conspiracy - basically it's a conspiracy theory that takes the piss out of conspiracy theories... or maybe I'm in on the conspiracy? ;) I mean I've never been to Crossmaglen, how can anyone prove to me that it actually exists, let alone Bielefeld? ;) ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy

Remember kids, it's usually good & healthy to keep an open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 16, 2020, 10:47:30 PM
Can I suggest that if you've a few minutes to kill to read up on the Wikipedia article and do a Web search on the Bielefeld Conspiracy - basically it's a conspiracy theory that takes the piss out of conspiracy theories... or maybe I'm in on the conspiracy? ;) I mean I've never been to Crossmaglen, how can anyone prove to me that it actually exists, let alone Bielefeld? ;) ;)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bielefeld_Conspiracy

Remember kids, it's usually good & healthy to keep an open mind, just not so open that your brain falls out!
Perhaps Bielefeld is not in Germany at all but in Arminia
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 16, 2020, 10:49:33 PM
He escaped to Argentina.
He is now around 130 years old, goes by the alias Donald Trump.....

He is only hiding because he cannot pay the gas bill.
Dreadful comment.

Too soon?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Never beat the deeler on September 17, 2020, 08:47:21 AM
One of the most recent ridiculous conspiracy theories was that the Obama's had Joan Rivers bumped off for making derogatory remarks.

Still can't explain this though. Very weird.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/RaM9zK10cDy5/


Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Roesider on September 19, 2020, 10:50:54 PM
One of the most recent ridiculous conspiracy theories was that the Obama's had Joan Rivers bumped off for making derogatory remarks.

Still can't explain this though. Very weird.

https://www.bitchute.com/video/RaM9zK10cDy5/




Have you managed to make it back to the keyboard yet? :D

I still can't stop laughing at the guy in the middle of the video - not sure if he was in the audience or not.

Certainly makes you wonder if Mrs Obama was actually a First Lady!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2020, 10:52:17 PM
I see the antvax gang including the disgusting Dolores Cahill were stirring up trouble in London today.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 20, 2020, 07:31:09 AM
its only going to get bigger there were protests in dublin today
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 20, 2020, 09:39:12 AM
Bigger than 40?
https://www.rte.ie/news/dublin/2020/0919/1166232-protest/
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 20, 2020, 09:52:56 AM
its only going to get bigger there were protests in dublin today

Think there were some in Galway as well. Wouldn't it be craic if a few of them got the virus themselves!
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 20, 2020, 10:04:35 AM
Does it seem like now 50 percent of the country is some sort of conspiracy theorist around 10 years 6 years ago it not seem that many into stuff like illuminati etc i dont do facebook so i do not know what is like on there.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 20, 2020, 10:07:28 AM
if anyone one of them did get the virus they wont tell anyone they will keep it hush hush and then get back onto Facebook especially the ones that make money from youtube videos.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 20, 2020, 10:11:49 AM
ive seen people say masks destroy your immune system yeah wearing a mask in a shop for 5 - 15 minutes destroys your immune system.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Norf Tyrone on September 20, 2020, 10:28:53 AM
ive seen people say masks destroy your immune system yeah wearing a mask in a shop for 5 - 15 minutes destroys your immune system.

I've been wearing these masks in my job for 20 odd years up to 8/10 hours a day. Immune system is grand and I've never heard asthmatics etc have any bother wearing them.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 20, 2020, 10:40:29 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rudi on September 20, 2020, 12:26:47 PM
ive seen people say masks destroy your immune system yeah wearing a mask in a shop for 5 - 15 minutes destroys your immune system.

I've been wearing these masks in my job for 20 odd years up to 8/10 hours a day. Immune system is grand and I've never heard asthmatics etc have any bother wearing them.

Disposable one, you probably change every 3 hours. As opposed to one people use every day without washing.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Norf Tyrone on September 20, 2020, 10:00:48 PM
ive seen people say masks destroy your immune system yeah wearing a mask in a shop for 5 - 15 minutes destroys your immune system.

I've been wearing these masks in my job for 20 odd years up to 8/10 hours a day. Immune system is grand and I've never heard asthmatics etc have any bother wearing them.

Disposable one, you probably change every 3 hours. As opposed to one people use every day without washing.

So it's not the mask destroying the immune system them it's people's lack of sense when wearing them.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 21, 2020, 10:24:10 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 10:32:19 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland? The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 21, 2020, 10:41:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.
0.8% in February.
40 fckwits Saturday.
Central and Eastern Europe seems to be the main places for it.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 21, 2020, 11:10:38 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland? The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.

I was thinking generally really on this one, not so much Ireland. But there is no doubt, the door is slightly ajar in Ireland for this type of character. Would it be successful? I would hope we are too wise to fall for that rhetoric.

Lots of people unhappy with various things, Covid, Immigration, the gang issue in Dublin and further out, there is a major homeless issue in Ireland, the justice system is roundly laughed at. Just thinking off the top of my head. Covid will make the poor, poorer. It's not beyond the realms of possibility.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 11:14:38 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland? The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.

I was thinking generally really on this one, not so much Ireland. But there is no doubt, the door is slightly ajar in Ireland for this type of character. Would it be successful? I would hope we are too wise to fall for that rhetoric.

Lots of people unhappy with various things, Covid, Immigration, the gang issue in Dublin and further out, there is a major homeless issue in Ireland, the justice system is roundly laughed at. Just thinking off the top of my head. Covid will make the poor, poorer. It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

You used the word always. We've had one far right movement in a hundred years, much of which were entire decades when people were unhappy because of poverty, emigration and illnesses like TB. Today's problems pale in comparison with those of the 1950s for example.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 21, 2020, 11:18:41 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland? The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.

I was thinking generally really on this one, not so much Ireland. But there is no doubt, the door is slightly ajar in Ireland for this type of character. Would it be successful? I would hope we are too wise to fall for that rhetoric.

Lots of people unhappy with various things, Covid, Immigration, the gang issue in Dublin and further out, there is a major homeless issue in Ireland, the justice system is roundly laughed at. Just thinking off the top of my head. Covid will make the poor, poorer. It's not beyond the realms of possibility.

You used the word always. We've had one far right movement in a hundred years, much of which were entire decades when people were unhappy because of poverty, emigration and illnesses like TB. Today's problems pale in comparison with those of the 1950s for example.

I also said generally, not so much ireland.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 11:56:01 AM
I also said generally, not so much ireland.

Only when I challenged your original sweeping statement. I wouldn't have challenged it at all if you had qualified it in the first place but subtlety and perspective seems to go out the window whenever this alleged "far right movement" is being discussed.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 21, 2020, 12:15:42 PM
There's no alleged.
The cnts are out there, thankfully very few but are ready to latch onto any discontent to further their agenda of hate.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
There's no alleged.
The cnts are out there, thankfully very few but are ready to latch onto any discontent to further their agenda of hate.

So it's not a movement. Thanks for supporting my point.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 21, 2020, 12:26:15 PM
I also said generally, not so much ireland.

Only when I challenged your original sweeping statement. I wouldn't have challenged it at all if you had qualified it in the first place but subtlety and perspective seems to go out the window whenever this alleged "far right movement" is being discussed.

Too many back and forth on this board recently over a form of words. I couldn't really be bothered with an epic saga here. My point was and is, wherever you have hardship, you have opportunity. These people thrive on conditions such as this.

Do I think it will happen? No. Do I want it to happen? No. Am I in any way right wing? No. I just see there being certain things broken in Ireland that can be manipulated for that end right now.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 12:34:50 PM
There has been hardship in this country for 70 or 80 of the last hundred years. So much hardship to put todays' hardships into the ha'penny place. Yet after a hundred years, we've yet to be swamped by a far right movement. Even the Blueshirts ran out of steam very quickly in a decade when people were starving.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rossfan on September 21, 2020, 01:55:24 PM
There's no alleged.
The cnts are out there, thankfully very few but are ready to latch onto any discontent to further their agenda of hate.

So it's not a movement. Thanks for supporting my point.
I'm just stating a fact.
Those cnts though would consider themselves a "movement".
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on September 21, 2020, 03:39:56 PM
There's no alleged.
The cnts are out there, thankfully very few but are ready to latch onto any discontent to further their agenda of hate.

So it's not a movement. Thanks for supporting my point.

How is it not a movement? Has a structure, leadership and funding.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 21, 2020, 03:53:35 PM
There's no alleged.
The cnts are out there, thankfully very few but are ready to latch onto any discontent to further their agenda of hate.

So it's not a movement. Thanks for supporting my point.

How is it not a movement? Has a structure, leadership and funding.

A group with only a few people in it is not a movement even if they grandiosely describe themselves as such.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 22, 2020, 03:24:55 AM
There growing at a very high rate
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: imtommygunn on September 22, 2020, 07:46:21 AM
Anyone aligning themselves with Jim Corr’s views needs to take a long hard look at themselves.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 22, 2020, 02:20:26 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.
Inequality seems to me to be a real driving force

A prosperous, empathetic and relatively egalitarian society that simultaneously rewards initiative is the best way to stave off fascism, I think Ireland has done better than most in that regard over the last few decades, but at the same time we have stored up serious problems, the housing problem is a ticking time bomb ripe for exploitation by bad faith actors

Democracy isn't just a system of voting, it's a whole eco-system including the media and education, especially how history is taught, it depends on an informed populace

Sections of the media have always been bad faith actors, but that's a particular problem now, and economic changes exacerbate the situation - the business model for media organisations is collapsing, and sensationalism garners clicks, ratings and reaction, so media organisations are increasingly prone to indulging sensationalism, ie. disinformation and propaganda, for clicks, ratings and reaction

At the same time, you have a widespread distrust of the media and journalism itself, which is disastrous, because people just lump all sections of the media in together

This "RTE is the virus" stuff is crazy, though RTE certainly has its faults

A natural extension of that is the distrust of real knowledge in favour of snake oil salespeople - there are limits to the democratisation of information, because you reach a point where widespread disinformation becomes a real problem - we have certainly reached this point now

History as a subject has been roundly denigrated and since Reagan and Thatcher the whole emphasis in society is that there is no society, only individuals

This leaves the gates open for the consistent creation of division, which is also a foundation for the growth of real fascism

Look at Ireland even, everything is about the creation of division, division, division - Independent News and Media has been particularly bad for this, though it pales by comparison with UK and US media

Public v private
Urban v rural
Old v young
The denigration of those on any form of social welfare payment
The targetting of immigrants

Inequality creates confusion and anger, which are a toxic mix

Our current media environment is ripe for the pushing of confusion and anger, thus leads to people wanting easy answers and scapegoats - which is grist to the mill for fascists

There are also very few people around now who remember how fascism destroyed Europe

Folk memory of how evil flourished is a valuable thing, unfortunately it no longer exists, which means a lot of people around now don't understand the evils of fascism and how fascists always cloak themselves as something else - fascism is a con trick

Those who aim to destroy democracy can never be a legitimate part of the political eco-system

The price of freedom is eternal vigilance

We have certainly reached the stage now where there needs to be a bold and progressive re-imagining of politics internationally in a similar way to how politics was re-imagined after World War II

Sadly there are incredibly strong vested interests fighting against this, which does not bode well
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Lar Naparka on September 22, 2020, 02:25:17 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 22, 2020, 02:48:36 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.

Threat about to derail....can, worms...everywhere.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: sid waddell on September 22, 2020, 02:49:16 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.
I think there are distinct similarities between the Catholic Church in this country and the far right, and the current far right in Ireland has an obvious overlap with ultra-conservative Catholic ideology, and yet the comparison doesn't quite fit

Certainly there has always been a considerable section of the Catholic Church in this country which has been sympathetic to fascism and fanatically anti-communist - that's a similarity with the far right

Catholic ideology is the reason we don't have a national public health system in this country and the reason our welfare state was always underdeveloped - the far right wants to destroy welfare states, no matter what it says

Catholicism in this country existed as a tool of social control, it preached a crushingly conservative, patriarchal conformity in which those who did not fit were ostracised and often subjected to cruel, inhuman treatment - the far right wants this back

And protection of the institution in the face of appalling wrongs was rife - the current far right, with their ludicrous claims to be anti-paedophilia, actually comes from a lineage which furiously protected paedophilia

And yet I think there are a lot of fundamentally very good people in the Catholic Church - the silent majority, as it were

But there are no good people in far right political movements

The future of the Catholic Church, and indeed all religions, lies in being a movement which genuinely champions the downtrodden in society and which preaches compassion, not dogma

The future of the Catholic Church is not people like David Quinn and Maria Steen fighting an insane right-wing culture, political and propaganda war while claiming to speak for Catholics, when they do not



Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 22, 2020, 03:19:00 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.

The Legion of Mary was primarily a charitable organisation, the St Vincent De Paul of its day. A movement, but not very far-right. And the opposite of Cromwellian.

Opus Dei never did much in Ireland. In 1983, when Catholicism was on a crest of a wave here, its membership was estimated at only 750. https://magill.ie/archive/secrets-opus-dei#:~:text=Opus%20Dei%20first%20moved%20into,and%20the%20College%20of%20Surgeons. That's the opposite of a movement.

Keep trying.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rudi on September 22, 2020, 03:34:28 PM
Anyone aligning themselves with Jim Corr’s views needs to take a long hard look at themselves.

Could be trying to get off with one of his sisters. Probably a bit of a conspiracy theory though.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Rudi on September 22, 2020, 03:42:05 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.

Legion  of Mary made up of a few auld ones saying a few prayers and giving a few pound to charity. Disgusting and illogical to associate them with far right.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Lar Naparka on September 22, 2020, 04:32:39 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/the-far-right-rises-its-growth-as-a-political-force-in-ireland-1.4358321

The far right always gathers pace when people are unhappy. History has shown that.

Ah now. How many far right movements worthy of the name have we ever had in Ireland?
The Blueshirts is the only one I can think of.
Dunno about that. Are you overlooking the Catholic church and the other mainstream churches? The Legion, of Mary and Opus Dei, for instance were/are more right wing than Oliver Cromwell.

Legion  of Mary made up of a few auld ones saying a few prayers and giving a few pound to charity. Disgusting and illogical to associate them with far right.
Cop yourself on. I have some knowledge of what some of "the few auld ones" got up to.  They had a say the running of parish affairs no surprise really as the parish priest was usually as intolerant as his advisors. Girls who got pregnant,often raped, were obliged to emigrate or at least leave town.
I know of some teachers who failed to get appointments because a few "auld ones" had a word with thev local parish priest.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 22, 2020, 04:39:18 PM
Cop yourself on. I have some knowledge of what some of "the few auld ones" got up to.  They had a say the running of parish affairs no surprise really as the parish priest was usually as intolerant as his advisors. Girls who got pregnant,often raped, were obliged to emigrate or at least leave town.
I know of some teachers who failed to get appointments because a few "auld ones" had a word with thev local parish priest.

My mother was in the Legion of Mary in Dublin when she was young. They spent their time bringing food to the homeless and to prostitutes on the street. Then and in later life, she'd no more fit the description you paint as the man in the moon.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Lar Naparka on September 22, 2020, 11:17:13 PM
Cop yourself on. I have some knowledge of what some of "the few auld ones" got up to.  They had a say the running of parish affairs no surprise really as the parish priest was usually as intolerant as his advisors. Girls who got pregnant,often raped, were obliged to emigrate or at least leave town.
I know of some teachers who failed to get appointments because a few "auld ones" had a word with thev local parish priest.

My mother was in the Legion of Mary in Dublin when she was young. They spent their time bringing food to the homeless and to prostitutes on the street. Then and in later life, she'd no more fit the description you paint as the man in the moon.
I appreciate what you say and I'm quite happy to accept that many legionnaires were decent, devout Christians- but not all were.
I have several cases in mind where a number of dominating individuals meddled, to put it mildly in parish affairs. On reflection, I realise that a blanket condemnation of all Legion members is unfair to probably the majority of them.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: five points on September 23, 2020, 11:57:18 AM
Cop yourself on. I have some knowledge of what some of "the few auld ones" got up to.  They had a say the running of parish affairs no surprise really as the parish priest was usually as intolerant as his advisors. Girls who got pregnant,often raped, were obliged to emigrate or at least leave town.
I know of some teachers who failed to get appointments because a few "auld ones" had a word with thev local parish priest.

My mother was in the Legion of Mary in Dublin when she was young. They spent their time bringing food to the homeless and to prostitutes on the street. Then and in later life, she'd no more fit the description you paint as the man in the moon.
I appreciate what you say and I'm quite happy to accept that many legionnaires were decent, devout Christians- but not all were.
I have several cases in mind where a number of dominating individuals meddled, to put it mildly in parish affairs. On reflection, I realise that a blanket condemnation of all Legion members is unfair to probably the majority of them.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: GetOverTheBar on September 23, 2020, 12:17:29 PM
Area 51....

So just what is going on in the Nevada Desert?

Aliens? Specialised aircraft?
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: J70 on September 23, 2020, 12:50:38 PM
Area 51....

So just what is going on in the Nevada Desert?

Aliens? Specialised aircraft?

I think the aircraft and weapons system testing is the reasonable, logical conclusion.
Title: Re: Conspiracy Theories
Post by: Eire90 on September 24, 2020, 03:33:05 AM
seems like the conspiracy theory people have won a few years ago it was only a few people that were into alternative thinking now its the whole place especially these middle age and young women in their 20s a lot of them seem very smug aswell.