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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: StephenC on September 12, 2020, 07:56:56 PM

Title: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 12, 2020, 07:56:56 PM
Let's imagine that there's a rural GAA club, and it has been approached by a small soccer club in the area asking if they could train on the small training pitch that the GAA club has, while their pitch is being renovated. The GAA club would like to help out, but can they? There would be no games, just training.

If we registered the soccer players (for some nominal amount), would that work?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: From the Bunker on September 12, 2020, 08:01:17 PM
Is it a community Pitch?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 12, 2020, 08:13:49 PM
Is it a community Pitch?

No, it's not.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Bronco on September 12, 2020, 08:58:21 PM
I've known it to happen but not sure what the official rules are these days. Know of a few GAA clubs that share pitches with rugby teams and the like. Don't see the problem with it as long as there's no negative impact on the club.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 12, 2020, 09:08:55 PM
I've known it to happen but not sure what the official rules are these days. Know of a few GAA clubs that share pitches with rugby teams and the like. Don't see the problem with it as long as there's no negative impact on the club.

Office rule (5.1 (a) ) is pretty clean is saying it's not allowed. I'm unaware of an non-community pitch sharing with the GAA, but I'd love to hear about this.

These are 2 clubs with a good relationship (we have done joint fund-raisers before), so I'd love to find a way to make it happen, but I don't want the GAA club to risk fines/sanctions because of it.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Itchy on September 13, 2020, 12:05:39 PM
Its not allowed but f**k the rules, local clubs need to have good relations. Sign all the players up as gaa members, charge them a special 1 euro price. Let them train on your grounds as gaa members.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 13, 2020, 12:33:43 PM
Its not allowed but f**k the rules, local clubs need to have good relations. Sign all the players up as gaa members, charge them a special 1 euro price. Let them train on your grounds as gaa members.

Yeah, we were thinking of that, but there was some concerns/fears that the GAA insurance may not cover them in that situation?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Itchy on September 13, 2020, 08:03:53 PM
Its not allowed but f**k the rules, local clubs need to have good relations. Sign all the players up as gaa members, charge them a special 1 euro price. Let them train on your grounds as gaa members.

Yeah, we were thinking of that, but there was some concerns/fears that the GAA insurance may not cover them in that situation?

They should have their own insurance through their soccee club membership shouldn't they?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Rossfan on September 13, 2020, 08:39:57 PM
Soccer clubs having insurance..... :o
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 13, 2020, 09:36:01 PM
Soccer clubs having insurance..... :o

Yeah, they have their own insurance, and are happy to train under that cover.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: naka on September 14, 2020, 10:01:17 AM
its not allowed,
remember the owners of the land( the trustees, one of which is from county board and one from central council) have to sign up to the rules.
the rules simply don`t allow it.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Hound on September 14, 2020, 02:31:40 PM
its not allowed,
remember the owners of the land( the trustees, one of which is from county board and one from central council) have to sign up to the rules.
the rules simply don`t allow it.
The rules don't allow two hops either, but sometimes you get away with it. Or the penalty is not imposed.

There's an astroturf soccer pitch on the Parnells GAA campus. I'm not 100% sure this is fact, but I was told by a local that Parnells do own this soccer pitch and lease it to a soccer club. He said it was one of the grounds for planning permission that the council imposed, which is why the "rule" is not imposed.

In StephenC's case, if the GAA club want to help out for the short-term mentioned, then they should help out. I can't see any reasonable person taking them to task and risking the bad publicity
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 14, 2020, 02:48:38 PM
its not allowed,
remember the owners of the land( the trustees, one of which is from county board and one from central council) have to sign up to the rules.
the rules simply don`t allow it.
The rules don't allow two hops either, but sometimes you get away with it. Or the penalty is not imposed.

There's an astroturf soccer pitch on the Parnells GAA campus. I'm not 100% sure this is fact, but I was told by a local that Parnells do own this soccer pitch and lease it to a soccer club. He said it was one of the grounds for planning permission that the council imposed, which is why the "rule" is not imposed.

In StephenC's case, if the GAA club want to help out for the short-term mentioned, then they should help out. I can't see any reasonable person taking them to task and risking the bad publicity

The reason why we have a rule book is because ďany reasonable personĒ is only reasonable when he agrees with you.

Iíve genuine empathy for the situation. But the grounds are owned by the GAA. Public liability insurance to stand on the grounds is courtesy of the GAA. Pitch maintenance and improvements are made by GAA members and volunteers. Which means that if their committee approves soccer on their grounds, theyíre breaking GAA rules, ignoring their own constitution, leaving themselves open to insurance claims, and potentially pissing off a percentage of their membership who donít want to share facilities with another sport.

Itís got f**k all to do with being reasonable.

Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: five points on September 14, 2020, 02:52:11 PM
https://www.the42.ie/dromard-gaa-jamie-carragher-fine-2585772-Feb2016/
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Itchy on September 14, 2020, 05:20:03 PM
its not allowed,
remember the owners of the land( the trustees, one of which is from county board and one from central council) have to sign up to the rules.
the rules simply don`t allow it.
The rules don't allow two hops either, but sometimes you get away with it. Or the penalty is not imposed.

There's an astroturf soccer pitch on the Parnells GAA campus. I'm not 100% sure this is fact, but I was told by a local that Parnells do own this soccer pitch and lease it to a soccer club. He said it was one of the grounds for planning permission that the council imposed, which is why the "rule" is not imposed.

In StephenC's case, if the GAA club want to help out for the short-term mentioned, then they should help out. I can't see any reasonable person taking them to task and risking the bad publicity

The reason why we have a rule book is because ďany reasonable personĒ is only reasonable when he agrees with you.

Iíve genuine empathy for the situation. But the grounds are owned by the GAA. Public liability insurance to stand on the grounds is courtesy of the GAA. Pitch maintenance and improvements are made by GAA members and volunteers. Which means that if their committee approves soccer on their grounds, theyíre breaking GAA rules, ignoring their own constitution, leaving themselves open to insurance claims, and potentially pissing off a percentage of their membership who donít want to share facilities with another sport.

Itís got f**k all to do with being reasonable.

Aye, but when it suited the boys in Croke Park to rake in money from Rugby & Soccer the rules could be changed. How does Dromard get a rule change? And I was against opening Croke Park to other games, still am. But I am for small local clubs helping each other out so that kids get to play as many sports as they can when they are young. I am against small clubs competing with each other and damaging each other. I accept you are 100% right about the rules that are in place. I am saying the rules are bollix and I gave a work around to the OP.

Here is one, what if a GAA club were training and at the end of their session decided to have a bit of craic and play 5 a side soccer?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 14, 2020, 06:51:01 PM
Itchy the rules arenít always a bollocks.

Theyíre there to protect us from ourselves. Get a fly by night committee in and if they arenít held accountable to a constitution, then things could get get out of hand very quickly.

Plenty of our rules change every year, including some seismic ones, to reflect changes in our culture.

But I canít see that particular one ever being reversed. Our ancestors worked too hard to provide us the facilities we have now, to make GAA the cornerstone of every rural community in Ireland, to flippantly hand then over to everyone.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 14, 2020, 10:07:48 PM
The committee certainly want to help out, and I'm happy that the membership will support. There are good relationships in the area and several kids play with both the soccer and GAA teams. But the nervousness is about insurance. Based on the responses here I don't see how we can go ahead and still be confident that we are protecting the people involved in the event of a serious accident.

We'll be meeting with them again later in the week and we can talk through ideas. Thanks for the help folks.  :(
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Last Man on September 15, 2020, 10:33:45 AM
Could be wrong about the location but I have a memeory of there being a soccer pitch at the end of Borris Ileighs main pitch, that was close to 10 years ago mind.  It gave their lads something to do in the winter at that time.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 11:12:32 AM
The committee certainly want to help out, and I'm happy that the membership will support. There are good relationships in the area and several kids play with both the soccer and GAA teams. But the nervousness is about insurance. Based on the responses here I don't see how we can go ahead and still be confident that we are protecting the people involved in the event of a serious accident.

We'll be meeting with them again later in the week and we can talk through ideas. Thanks for the help folks.  :(

Honestly, if your committee are considering ignoring their own constitution, they shouldnít be in their roles.

Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Rossfan on September 15, 2020, 11:46:38 AM
Nothing like a hardline Nordie to set ye bucks straight. ::)
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 12:01:30 PM
Nothing like a hardline Nordie to set ye bucks straight. ::)

Nothing hard line about it.

If a committee isnít held accountable to its constitution, then things like this can happen:

- All soccer club members join GAA club.
- Soccer committee then stand for election at GAA AGM.
- A foothold is gained.
- Over the course of time (which might be days, months, years... or maybe never), this foothold is exploited regularly in soccerís favour.

Iím not telling you where this scenario ends up. But eventually the constitution is re-engaged, and there are clubs that have folded and split over lesser issues.

óó

Soccer is not the enemy. Personally I love the game. But it has extraordinary advantages over Gaelic Games due to its simplicity, itís worldwide appeal and media presence, the professional route, and in certain ways, just how easy it is to change clubs.

Gaelic Games has its own advantages. For example, itís a more appealing game for more physical people. But its single greatest advantage is that its grounds, games and culture are the cornerstone of almost every rural community in Ireland. This is because we own the land and we look after it specifically to maintain that advantage. This is something that shouldnít be eroded because a few lads out west like soccer a lot. Thatís not a good enough excuse in my book.

Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: mouview on September 15, 2020, 12:27:48 PM
Are you sure the club grounds are vested in the GAA. If not, then it has no jurisdiction over them. Then, insurance coverage may also be a factor.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Rossfan on September 15, 2020, 12:40:20 PM
Does Wobb want a ban on members of soccer clubs becoming members of the GAA??
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 15, 2020, 01:50:51 PM
Nothing like a hardline Nordie to set ye bucks straight. ::)

Nothing hard line about it.

If a committee isnít held accountable to its constitution, then things like this can happen:

- All soccer club members join GAA club.
- Soccer committee then stand for election at GAA AGM.
- A foothold is gained.
- Over the course of time (which might be days, months, years... or maybe never), this foothold is exploited regularly in soccerís favour.

Iím not telling you where this scenario ends up. But eventually the constitution is re-engaged, and there are clubs that have folded and split over lesser issues.

óó

Soccer is not the enemy. Personally I love the game. But it has extraordinary advantages over Gaelic Games due to its simplicity, itís worldwide appeal and media presence, the professional route, and in certain ways, just how easy it is to change clubs.

Gaelic Games has its own advantages. For example, itís a more appealing game for more physical people. But its single greatest advantage is that its grounds, games and culture are the cornerstone of almost every rural community in Ireland. This is because we own the land and we look after it specifically to maintain that advantage. This is something that shouldnít be eroded because a few lads out west like soccer a lot. Thatís not a good enough excuse in my book.

Not sure what type of committees and people you have been involved with, but it certainly differs to mine. The sort of multi-year, strategic takeover of a GAA club by a group of cunning soccer-types that you are describing is fun to think about, but not that I realistic I feel.

Anyway, right now it looks like we are stuck.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
I think youíre maybe missing my point.

Itís a scenario much less likely to unfold as long as committees are bound to a constitution.

If committees though can just do what they like, it creates opportunities for Non-GAA interests to be satisfied.

ó-

Ros thereís no need to twist my words and make me sound anti-soccer. My own club is full of members who are also members of soccer clubs, including my children, and not so long ago me. I would encourage any Gaelic Footballer to play soccer, and vice versa.

If you donít want to see the dangers in GAA clubs breaking their constitutions, thatís okay. Fire away. But donít make me out as something Iím not.


Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: StephenC on September 15, 2020, 02:13:14 PM
Are you sure the club grounds are vested in the GAA. If not, then it has no jurisdiction over them. Then, insurance coverage may also be a factor.

Yeah, it's a GAA ground.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Downtothewire on September 15, 2020, 04:08:06 PM
I think youíre maybe missing my point.

Itís a scenario much less likely to unfold as long as committees are bound to a constitution.

If committees though can just do what they like, it creates opportunities for Non-GAA interests to be satisfied.

ó-

Ros thereís no need to twist my words and make me sound anti-soccer. My own club is full of members who are also members of soccer clubs, including my children, and not so long ago me. I would encourage any Gaelic Footballer to play soccer, Hurling and vice versa.

If you donít want to see the dangers in GAA clubs breaking their constitutions, thatís okay. Fire away. But donít make me out as something Iím not.

Corrected that for you
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Itchy on September 15, 2020, 04:53:33 PM
My GAA club used to take a very negative view of soccer, a few dinosaurs on both sides didnt help. Recently the same people who are coaches and volunteers in GAA club are the same people in the soccer club. Relations are good now. We work around each others for training, we understand  the load on some kids better that play both sports. Earlier in the year when the GAA banned all training on their grounds, the soccer club (who were in their off season) offered us use of their ground for a few weeks and we paid them a rate. We've never been asked by them for our grounds but if we did I feel we would work something as almost every player on their team is also a member of the GAA club.

I asked a question earlier, I suppose Wobbler you have taken a hard line so maybe you could give your thoughts on it. If a GAA training session ends with the lads playing a game of soccer for a bit of craic are they still insured and has the constitution of the GAA been broken? I recall many moons ago that exact thing used to happen in GAA centric Cavan and there was no soccer club within 20 miles of us.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 06:40:50 PM
My GAA club used to take a very negative view of soccer, a few dinosaurs on both sides didnt help. Recently the same people who are coaches and volunteers in GAA club are the same people in the soccer club. Relations are good now. We work around each others for training, we understand  the load on some kids better that play both sports. Earlier in the year when the GAA banned all training on their grounds, the soccer club (who were in their off season) offered us use of their ground for a few weeks and we paid them a rate. We've never been asked by them for our grounds but if we did I feel we would work something as almost every player on their team is also a member of the GAA club.

I asked a question earlier, I suppose Wobbler you have taken a hard line so maybe you could give your thoughts on it. If a GAA training session ends with the lads playing a game of soccer for a bit of craic are they still insured and has the constitution of the GAA been broken? I recall many moons ago that exact thing used to happen in GAA centric Cavan and there was no soccer club within 20 miles of us.


Of course theyíre insured. Theyíre playing members of a GAA club, training for Gaelic Games.

Thatís why this isnít just about insurance Itchy, for your next question will be ďwell what if it was only the soccer club players who stayed behind?Ē quickly followed by ďand what if there just happened to be no actual GAA training or if it was called off at the last minute?Ē.

Itís about the Associationís rules and club constitution. You might find it acceptable to pay lip service to such things. But I guarantee you that even if the active members of your club have a healthy relationship with local soccer, that thereís dozens of your members would be vehemently against pitch sharing, and hundreds who would be worried about it. So if your committee were to go on a solo run on this one, without the blessing of members and trustees, itís the kind of action that could cause a chasm.

And then do you know what would happen? Your trustees would be called in, your  clubís constitution would be dug up, and soccer would be kindly told not to ask again.

This isnít rocket science. Constitutions largely exist to stop clubs eating themselves by accident.


Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: hardstation on September 15, 2020, 06:52:55 PM
Although clubs & committees make decisions that fly in the face of the GAAís rules & club constitutions all the time to the point where not only is it the norm, it is expected and even demanded. Paying people to manage teams.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Rossfan on September 15, 2020, 07:03:08 PM
Sure the GAA at top level broke its rules to allow 2 soccer teams to play a soccer match in PŠirc UŪ Chaoimh.
They just closed their eyes and called it a "Charity event".
There might be "dozens of members" objecting in 6 Co clubs but round here you might get 1 or 2.
Personally I cant abide soccer as it's 90 minutes of boredom but I can't see any problem letting them use a GAA club facility provided they pay (in advance) and cover insurance and doesn't interfere with Club activities.
Like they did when they were playing Internationals in Croke Park.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 08:25:08 PM
Although clubs & committees make decisions that fly in the face of the GAAís rules & club constitutions all the time to the point where not only is it the norm, it is expected and even demanded. Paying people to manage teams.

Your absolutely right. But even if the GAA were to crack down as hard as they could on this, a brown envelope between a sponsor and an overrated team of overpaid mercenaries from out of the county, is not something they could investigate.

Whereas just one photograph of a kitted our Local United FC on St Patrickís GAA turf is evidence enough for a clubís membership to get upset, and county boards to start an investigation.

ó-

Rossfan, this is has nothing to do with the wee six.

A few years ago I asked our own committee about soccer training and got laughed off. I called them dinosaurs then. But as I became more familiar with both internal club politics and GAA rules, it turned out they were right. Nowadays Iíd laugh at the same request.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: hardstation on September 15, 2020, 08:38:24 PM
Sorry, I thought you were taking the sole stance that GAA rules & club constitutions should not be ignored by club committees, and indeed that if they even considered it they should not be in their roles.

I thought it a noble stance - a man showing great regard for the founding ethos & principles of our association.

Ah well, itís hard to police - fcuk the constitution lads, who are we getting in this year?
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: delgany on September 15, 2020, 08:40:00 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2019/0508/1048162-naomh-colmcille-accept-punishment-for-hosting-soccer/

A charity event !
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: thewobbler on September 15, 2020, 08:43:35 PM
Sorry, I thought you were taking the sole stance that GAA rules & club constitutions should not be ignored by club committees, and indeed that if they even considered it they should not be in their roles.

I thought it a noble stance - a man showing great regard for the founding ethos & principles of our association.

Ah well, itís hard to police - fcuk the constitution lads, who are we getting in this year?

Iím sure you see my point all the same.

Btw, Iíd truly love to be smart enough to dream up a system to end paid managers. And should anyone ever do so, theyíll have my support.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: hardstation on September 15, 2020, 08:45:30 PM
Sorry, I thought you were taking the sole stance that GAA rules & club constitutions should not be ignored by club committees, and indeed that if they even considered it they should not be in their roles.

I thought it a noble stance - a man showing great regard for the founding ethos & principles of our association.

Ah well, itís hard to police - fcuk the constitution lads, who are we getting in this year?

Iím sure you see my point all the same.

Btw, Iíd truly love to be smart enough to dream up a system to end paid managers. And should anyone ever do so, theyíll have my support.
I absolutely do. However, club committees the length & breadth of the country play fast and loose with the rules & constitutions when it suits them.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on September 15, 2020, 09:11:04 PM
Sure the GAA at top level broke its rules to allow 2 soccer teams to play a soccer match in PŠirc UŪ Chaoimh.
They just closed their eyes and called it a "Charity event".
There might be "dozens of members" objecting in 6 Co clubs but round here you might get 1 or 2.
Personally I cant abide soccer as it's 90 minutes of boredom but I can't see any problem letting them use a GAA club facility provided they pay (in advance) and cover insurance and doesn't interfere with Club activities.
Like they did when they were playing Internationals in Croke Park.

PUC had signed an explicit agreement to waive rule 42 for funding. So not the case here.

Just rent them the pitch and hope nobody rats you out. Hundreds of clubs do it.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on September 15, 2020, 09:49:26 PM
The rule is pretty straightforward. No foreign games are to be played on GAA grounds.
Hope that answers your question.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on September 15, 2020, 10:16:45 PM
The rule is pretty straightforward. No foreign games are to be played on GAA grounds.
Hope that answers your question.

Except Croke Park. Or shared GAA grounds. Or GAA grounds on public parks.
Title: Re: Can we help out a local soccer club?
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on September 15, 2020, 10:22:14 PM
Sorry, I thought you were taking the sole stance that GAA rules & club constitutions should not be ignored by club committees, and indeed that if they even considered it they should not be in their roles.

I thought it a noble stance - a man showing great regard for the founding ethos & principles of our association.

Ah well, itís hard to police - fcuk the constitution lads, who are we getting in this year?

Do you source all your equipment and admin stuff in Ireland? Do you pay coaches? Do you operate in Irish? Does your club offer Irish dancing?

The point is its a silly rule that is ignored when it suits. Clubs are dying and can't monetise their assets that they maintain. The local committee are well capable of making the call as to the relationship with other sports. The GAA encouraged clubs to get astro pitches they cannot afford to maintain and they can't rent to the rest of the community.

This ehole thing should have been buried when the GAA were pilloried for refusing to allow that fundraiser in Omagh. Its archaic and no longer is required.