gaaboard.com

GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:38:52 AM

Title: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:38:52 AM
Wrote a blog about this with the first few paragraphs below. You can read the rest here; https://t.co/AVIRD7wxVP?amp=1


 
I crunched some numbers on the composition of the Gaelic Football all star teams between 2000-2019. Breaking that 20 year period into 4 lots of 5 years I found the following: Between 2000-2004 eighteen counties were represented across those five years. Between 2004-2009 it dropped to thirteen counties. Between 2010-2014 it dropped to eleven. For the past five years it dropped to eight.
The next five years look almost certain for Dublin to take up where they left off and Kerry will be their only serious rival. Another drop in county representation on the all star teams by the end of 2024 looks likely.

Since 1887 the GAA have administered over intercounty all Ireland finals every year. In terms of titles won; Kerry ran away with it (28% of All Irelands have been won by Kerry). Dublin are closing in on them but still eight titles off from catching up. Everyone else either had their own era or eras or never quite made the grade. What exactly is the next five years going to prove if it turns out how it looks presently? What will we learn from another five years that Dublin dominated with the odd Kerry all Ireland thrown in? We already know from the past 132 years of All Irelands that Kerry and Dublin were historically the two most formidable sides. What does it prove to see them continue telling us what we already know?

The intercounty system seems to have told us all it can. It will have ran its course if the next decade is a Dublin and Kerry carve-up. Its history has told Kildare and Mayo that their huge enthusiasm outweighed their talent and ability to win. It told Cork and Galway that they can expect a great title winning team every twenty years or so. It told Donegal, Tyrone and Armagh that patience and dedication allied with skill can be rewarded. Every county found their rung on the ladder and there is no practical reason to keep with an outdated system of county boundaries that are centuries old.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 13, 2020, 03:55:15 PM
All well and good saying something doesn't work.

But if ye don't suggest an alternative with some information to back it up, then whats the point?

[I have an opinion, many will disagree with it, but I'm interested in hearing yours first.]
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 13, 2020, 04:05:40 PM
All well and good saying something doesn't work.

But if ye don't suggest an alternative with some information to back it up, then whats the point?

[I have an opinion, many will disagree with it, but I'm interested in hearing yours first.]

Did you read the entire blog or just the bit Iíve attacked above? Not a confrontational question, just it would be explained in that better.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 13, 2020, 05:19:13 PM
Nope, didn't have time. Maybe better just bullet pointing the suggestions here rather than require folks to go off to another website.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
Nope, didn't have time. Maybe better just bullet pointing the suggestions here rather than require folks to go off to another website.

Listen you might be right, itís two clicks away and I like to get accurate numbers on the amount of the visits the piece would get. Not trying to be awkward.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 13, 2020, 05:24:10 PM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 13, 2020, 05:34:43 PM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.

Itís honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where Iíll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 17, 2020, 11:00:58 AM
what is the alternative a professional  american franchise system of like 8 teams using a draft from club players each season you will have 8 teams based throughout the country teams like the Tyrone titans  dublin capitols and the kildare kings and the belfast shamrocks and  the cork chiefs.


It would destroy gaelic football and turn it into a cooperate enterprise (Maybe it that already)  i see inter county games as the same as international sports its the representative game.


it think maybe something should be done to promote the club game  maybe the radical idea of reducing all club counties to 8 or 10 teams and getting tv deals then the county champs of each county got into the club champions league.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 17, 2020, 11:06:38 AM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause  a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other  then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: StephenC on February 17, 2020, 11:29:07 AM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.

Itís honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where Iíll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.

Smells like clickbait.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 17, 2020, 11:54:41 AM
You started the thread-just outline your solutions.

Itís honestly best if you read the blog where all arguments are made rather than giving bullet points where Iíll end up arguing points already addressed in the blog.

Smells like clickbait.

Totally, no one should bite.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: rosnarun on February 17, 2020, 12:14:24 PM
one of the most important things to remember about the GAA is how  Parochial it is . interfere with the county set up and there is no way of know will the people follow not immediately anyway.
If you werr to put Mayo and sligo together as a team MB 'AT the moment' there may be 2 sligo lads on the Team  so Mayo people would not object much but I can see it being of much interest to Sligonians and if it ws was completely open im not such many would care at all.
Its just the nature of GAA and it can be compare to makey up teams like Connaught Rugby who now only have a smattering of connaught players and Munster/Ulster are going the same way
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: trailer on February 17, 2020, 12:39:28 PM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause  a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other  then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.

Ach would ye ever f**k away off with this stupid idea. Only someone with mental capacity of a goat would keep saying this.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 17, 2020, 01:19:19 PM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause  a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other  then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.

I agree with this bit.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 01:20:44 PM
It won't happen and even if it did the top teams would be seeded.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: rosnarun on February 17, 2020, 03:56:56 PM

I against any system whose purpose id to stop the best team from winning , which is what most of these plans seem to entail
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 17, 2020, 04:20:35 PM

I against any system whose purpose id to stop the best team from winning , which is what most of these plans seem to entail

Ok so Dublin are the best team. Why bother even playing the championship?  ::)
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 05:20:57 PM
Someone had to finish 2nd ;)
Or else ban Dublin for being too good.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 17, 2020, 06:34:57 PM
Someone had to finish 2nd ;)
Or else ban Dublin for being too good.

HQ canít see the bigger picture. The inter county game is already on life support. Tiered championships will totally finish it off, and thereís no way back from it.

The money men have decimated the game in 2 decades.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 06:49:28 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on February 17, 2020, 07:16:29 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: From the Bunker on February 17, 2020, 08:51:14 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 17, 2020, 09:29:25 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

Imagine if Ros do get relegated (unlikely) and Mayo manage to beat them. Would many more players opt out from the Roscommon setup? Or would they be delighted to win the damn thing they didn't set out to win at the beginning of the year?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 17, 2020, 09:59:05 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.

The relentless trashings by Dublin Kerry etc in tier 1 will only last so long before players from the likes of Cavan Armagh Clare Fermanagh Westmeath etc, say f**k this!

The exodus of players and fans from the tier 2 teams will increase year on year, with 25 people at tier 2 games, and a few dozen at the tier 2 final. Probably played in the arsehole of nowhere.

Meanwhile, HQ will peddle the ďeverything is greatĒ mantra, and Louth Leitrim Waterford etc are only stuck in tier 2 for the last 10 years because theyíre a pack of lazy bollixs who wonít get off their arses. Nothing to do with funding, nothing at all.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Sandy Hill on February 17, 2020, 10:37:18 PM
An open draw like the fa cup would help smaller teams cause  a lucky draw and you could easily get to a quarter final and gives smaller country fans hope if dublin drew against kerry in the first round that is one of them out you could even do a double chance where the teams that lose in the 1st round play each other and losers are eliminated the winners play each other  then the losers meet the winners like in the down championship you have round 2a and round 2b only its done with 32 teams.

Please someone, send this man a few full stops!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 17, 2020, 11:16:29 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

Imagine if Ros do get relegated (unlikely) and Mayo manage to beat them. Would many more players opt out from the Roscommon setup? Or would they be delighted to win the damn thing they didn't set out to win at the beginning of the year?
And if Cork don't get promoted (even more unlikely) we could end up playing them in the B  Final a year after playing then in the Qtr Finals. 8)
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 08:31:33 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 18, 2020, 09:44:04 AM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.

Is that not a description of the super 8s!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: dublin7 on February 18, 2020, 10:57:46 AM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

The tiered championship will be good for tier 1 Counties. They will make more money. Tier 2 will get token mentions here and there and save the Association a lot of money as they won't invest in it as there won't be anything worth investing in.

The relentless trashings by Dublin Kerry etc in tier 1 will only last so long before players from the likes of Cavan Armagh Clare Fermanagh Westmeath etc, say f**k this!

The exodus of players and fans from the tier 2 teams will increase year on year, with 25 people at tier 2 games, and a few dozen at the tier 2 final. Probably played in the arsehole of nowhere.

Meanwhile, HQ will peddle the ďeverything is greatĒ mantra, and Louth Leitrim Waterford etc are only stuck in tier 2 for the last 10 years because theyíre a pack of lazy bollixs who wonít get off their arses. Nothing to do with funding, nothing at all.

Where is all the publicity & coverage on tv/radio that the likes of waterford/leitrim/louth/wexford footballers get every year in the championship or are these counties worried they'll lose their 30 secs of highlights from sunday game if they enter a Tier 2 competition?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2020, 11:42:49 AM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 11:58:29 AM
The 90ís were probably the most exciting for both codes. 8 different winners in football, 6 in hurling. Clare came from nowhere to win the hurling, Wexford too. Down Donegal and Derry likewise in football. Did it harm the inter county game that these teams were winning all Irelandís? Or Leitrim Clare Kildare won provincials? No, it gave more counties the belief that we can achieve too.

The GAA didnít collapse. Crowds were big. AI finals full house. If Sligo played Cavan Iím the AI final, it would still be sold out. You donít need Dublin Kerry finals to sell it out.

Dublin7, you mention publicity for lower counties. Theyíre not going to get much in tier 2. Look at how Clare hurlers became household names all over Ireland in the 90ís, Donegal footballers etc. That can happen for Waterford Carlow, Antrim, Limerick etc. A championship run for any county will create a buzz and get kids playing the games. Thatís what the GAA is all about. Itís not about the best team winning every year. A run in the championship will do more for any county than coaches, facilities or winning the Mike Murphy cup. HQ canít see this.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 18, 2020, 01:04:58 PM
How many years do you give tier 2 before being scrapped.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2020, 01:06:42 PM
Wasnt much football excitement in most of the 1980s.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 18, 2020, 01:18:23 PM
ten team league with 6 qualifying for top two get byes to semis you can have a mid summer break aswell or alternate between football and hurling.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:19:56 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Captain Obvious on February 18, 2020, 01:24:12 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

We have that already. It's called the national football league..
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 18, 2020, 01:24:59 PM
ten team league with 6 qualifying for top two get byes to semis you can have a mid summer break aswell or alternate between football and hurling.

And if you're county was in and around Division 2 would you be advocating such a scenario, why not let the top 10 turn fully pro and work away, you I know you can have a hell of a season and win nothing, no one is going win Sam anytime soon bar Dublin.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 01:58:28 PM
I'd agree GAA does seem to be at a crossroads at the minute. It's amateur in name only. There's huge money involved now and the money men of course want extra games between the bigger teams to bring in more revenue. They are not particularly interested in lessening the gap between the weaker and stronger counties.
 Super 8's is the perfect example. With the backdoor the mantra was extra games improves teams so it would help the weaker counties. But they're not even trying to pretend anymore. Super 8's flies in the face of their philosophy of improving the weaker teams. It will improve the stronger teams only. It's all about the money.
 Personally this is how I would like to see things go but it will never happen. Keep provincials, local derbies are a huge part of championship football. Straight knockout. Provincial champions straight to AI semis like old. 2nd Tier competition for all teams up to losing provincial semi finalists (could potentially have some big names in there).
 That's it. Set up the 2nd tier as open draw straight knockout and run it off in the free weekends of the main AI championship. Finish both competitions in good time for the club competitions.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 02:32:50 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 02:46:45 PM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.

Is that not a description of the super 8s!

Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.

There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 02:53:59 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 18, 2020, 03:17:55 PM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.

Is that not a description of the super 8s!

Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.

There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.

You seem fixated on all counties playing again equal opposition, its sport and within GAA it is a unique sport, you play for the county you are from, this means talent comes and goes and teams change for the better or the worse. Why should a county be excluded from ever having the opportunity to play one of the current top 8 teams.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2020, 03:25:06 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?
They are in the Provincials. Not too many turning up to watch in Leinster or Munster in recent years.
Any County let all its Clubs play in a single tier Championship???
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 03:50:11 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 04:13:40 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones. 
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: five points on February 18, 2020, 04:16:16 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.

Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2020, 04:18:18 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: jb81 on February 18, 2020, 04:51:29 PM
The only long term solution I can see is that the League must become the main competition, with promotion and relegation. All teams playing similar standard teams week in and week out. Everyone same amount of games and a double weekend in August September for the four finals ( 2 Sat and 2 Sun ). The knockout can be run off outside of that or before it if wanted as a side comp. Provincials have to go, not relevant any more in the whole scheme of things, even though they are still very important to a lot of counties, possible pre-season competition.

Its the only way I can see things improving. Its not adding any games to the intercounty calendar.  The thought of Tyrone playing Dublin one week, Donegal the next, Kerry next etc.  in the middle of the summer on good pitches sounds good to me.

Is that not a description of the super 8s!

Well no its not, and you know it.
Its an eight team league x 4 divisions ( or even 3 divisions if more games wanted for each team and provincials are not played ), rather than 2 x 4 team leagues which are played after the bigger teams have steamrolled the poorer teams in the provinces.
Everyone gets at least 7 games v teams of close to equal quality.
It cuts our the dross of like Dublin v Carlow in Leinster for example and most games should be somewhat competitive.

There have been some great games over the last few weeks, in awful conditions, I would love to see these played over the summer week after week. Can't see why anyone wouldn't want their county doing same, against equal opposition.

You seem fixated on all counties playing again equal opposition, its sport and within GAA it is a unique sport, you play for the county you are from, this means talent comes and goes and teams change for the better or the worse. Why should a county be excluded from ever having the opportunity to play one of the current top 8 teams.

Talent comes and goes, absolutely, and when your county gets a good crop of players and improve then there aim would be promotion and play 'bigger' counties on the way up through the leagues.
There is absolutely no benefit in teams getting hammered by Dublin and Kerry, and I have no doubt the players do not enjoy it. Just for the 'opportunity to play them'.
A good crop of players a promotion, interest grows in the county, maybe even a second promotion and a squad from Fermanagh/Tipp/Wicklow could be playing division two against the Corks, Meaths, Monaghans, even Tyrone if they got relegated from a competitive division one. And fancying there chances of maybe staying up, pulling of an upset.
Instead of 20 point hammering from Dublin and out the next week in the back door and lose on the day to a team in same league division as them. That helps no one within that county, players or supporters enthusiasm to go watch them.
As I said play the knockout tournament as well, straight knockout draw. Then all teams will still have an opportunity to meet one of the bigger teams.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 18, 2020, 04:54:00 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!

Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2020, 05:10:02 PM
How will "tiered championships totally finish it"???

'cos no one will give two f**ks about the lower tiers.

Hows the Tommy Murphy cup going these days?


Why on earth do people keep repeating the same stuff and somehow expecting a different result?

In the current non tiered system no one gave a f**k. Who in the name of God wants to watch Dublin hammer Carlow or Tyrone destroy Derry? Problem with the new system is there is isn't enough tiers. We need 3 if not 4.

Why does it matter if a county gets hammered, it's a supposedly amateur sport, why cant teams get the opportunity to play the best and why cant their supporters be afforded the opportunity to watch?

They still are. And in case you hadn't noticed their "fans" aren't turning up. Tyrone V Antrim USFC in Athletic grounds last year about 47 people from Antrim turned up. But yeah weaker counties deserve to play the stronger ones and they should be all ticket matches because the demand is off the scale.
Those against tiers need to wake up. Nobody is turning up to watch these turkey shoots!

Antrim is an anomaly for support, they also give a decent account of themselves and I am sure the players enjoyed going toe to toe with a top 8 team.

It was 1-16 to 0-5 at HT. They were well beaten by 14 points after Tyrone made a host of changes. 2-23 to 2-9


 
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 05:48:25 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:04:37 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:08:21 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isnít it?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:09:42 PM
You could even have a nice monetary sum for winner of Tier 2 competition. Say half a million to a million. I know it's a dangerous precedent to set but money is a big issue for development and a sum this size would catch the attention of a lot of counties, never mind the weaker ones.

Jesus wept. Is this what we're reduced to now?
Why the dramatics? To develop the game in the lesser counties money is needed. Pumping money in Dublin GAA has improved them. If by winning the Tier 2 your team costs were covered for the year would this not be a big carrot for teams and massive boost to development in the county to win it both financially and lifting the profile of the team?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:11:21 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isnít it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 18, 2020, 06:19:23 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isnít it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.

Yes, and even they didnít take it seriously!

Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams wonít be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams wonít.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 18, 2020, 06:29:38 PM
Agree with the first part of that.

You seriously think the likes of Mayo Tyrone or Donegal will go all out to win tier 2, if they lose in the provincials?
It's only my preference and I did say it would never happen but to answer your question.
 I couldn't give a damn what they'd do. I follow Cavan when they're playing. If Cavan were in Tier 2 I'd follow them and hope they'd progress. When they're out I love the club championship and try to go to as many neutral games as possible. Wouldn't miss a game involving my club.
 I used to love the big games on TV as a neutral and wouldn't miss them if I could but TBH I've never watched a Super 8 game live. Even the AI semi-finals are losing their sheen depending on the match ups. Still look forward to AI final.

Fans will care what they do. Sponsors too, TV stations, newspapers etc.

Imagine the scenario where Donegal in tier 2 have to field without Murphy, Brennan, McHugh, McBrearty, McGee, Gallagher, Langan etc. Lots of fans wonít turn up, TV wonít show it, sponsors donít get noticed, newspapers wonít get sold, jersies wonít sell, hotels, restaurants, cafes suffers. Kids donít see their idols up close and lose interest. The interest might not return.

Thatís what will happen in tier 2.
Yes they will so with proper incentives for the competition why would footballers from serious football counties walk away? Not exactly endearing to management or fans.
And there's still the main competition to draw the hordes and get sponsorship.
Personally I have zero interest in Super 8s. It might work short term for a revenue point of view but I think they need to be careful they don't push too far and kill the goose.

Arenít you forgetting that loads of players (and fans) walked away from the Vinny Murphy cup? And these were players from the likes of Sligo Antrim Limerick Longford etc. And you think Mayo Donegal Tyrone players would stick around for the same competition???
But it's not the same competition, is it?

Isnít it?
No. TM was a Div 4 competition for most of its existence.

Yes, and even they didnít take it seriously!

Your original idea of tier 2 is still a secondary competition. The lower teams wonít be going all out to win it, so you can be sure the top teams wonít.
Don't really want to get into a big discussion over it Benny. I f*****g hate the Super 8s and the whole concept. Not gone on backdoor either in a championship so was just stating what I'd like to see. I understand the money men in the GAA would let it happen only over their dead bodies.
 But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: five points on February 18, 2020, 08:07:30 PM
.
 But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2020, 08:29:03 PM
The criteria used to change nearly every year.
I recall Ros losing a TM Cup game to Cyaaaavan in Breffni...possibly 2006.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 01:19:25 AM
.
 But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: rosnarun on February 19, 2020, 10:47:28 AM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire   the following year . if not this would be a real incentive.

I know if Mayo ever played tier 2 they would do their damnedest to win it
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:10:45 AM
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about ďTiersĒ.

The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty  Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: five points on February 19, 2020, 11:21:04 AM
.
 But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition

It was only a Div 4 competition for the final 2 years of its 5-year existence.
Full year-by-year record here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Tommy_Murphy_Cup
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 19, 2020, 11:23:51 AM
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about ďTiersĒ.

The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty  Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?

Sure why go on living, death is just going win in the end!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:27:45 AM
People free to discuss whatever they want but disappointing that this discussion is now about ďTiersĒ.

The question that is far more interesting is that if Kerry and Dublin jointly won intercounty  Gaelic Football and look to go on winning it for the next 10 years then why go on playing it?
There's still the Ulster and Connaught championships. Progress through the divisions in the league. Club football. Sure why play any sport if you're not the best at it?
 Tier 2 probably rears its head because it's something realistic lesser teams can hope to win. I get the resistance to it and the natural inclination to compare it to TM cup. But football has changed a lot since the TM cup. The romance of the championship is not what it was and I think it's beginning to dawn on smaller counties that the gap to the big boys has become so big that even a once off brilliant crop of young lads coming through will not close it much.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:35:02 AM
We are not bound to the intercounty system.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
.
 But just on the TM cup and Tier 2 comparison, they are not the same. TM originally had the feel of a leper colony about it and to let the Div 4 teams f**k off and play with their own ball. It got peoples' backs up from the start. If it was open to everyone i.e once your bet you're in it, it's a completely different concept. If you want to argue motivations of the competing teams after this fair enough, it's just a case of opinions, but to say it has been tried already is wrong IMO.
Cavan played several years in the Tommy Murphy Cup and we were never in Division 4.
I thought it was just the once. They changed the format a bit but it was mostly a Div 4 competition

It was only a Div 4 competition for the final 2 years of its 5-year existence.
Full year-by-year record here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Tommy_Murphy_Cup
How did you qualify for it. I remember us playing in it once when they tried to expand it. Apart from that my recollection of it was for Division 4 teams or teams who had recently been in Division 4.
And was it not ruling out the back door for some teams that pissed a lot off?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: five points on February 19, 2020, 11:46:10 AM
How did you qualify for it. I remember us playing in it once when they tried to expand it. Apart from that my recollection of it was for Division 4 teams or teams who had recently been in Division 4.
And was it not ruling out the back door for some teams that pissed a lot off?

I can't remember it all but wikipedia says it was in the early years open to everyone that was beaten in the early rounds of the qualifiers. Clare beat Sligo in the 2004 final and both were strong enough at the time. Only 4 teams entered in 2004.  Ruling out the back door for Div 4 definitely killed it in the end and will do the same only worse for the new competitions.

Any ambitious Div 3 team will fancy their chances of progressing in the qualifiers. I know if Cavan get relegated this year, I'll be bitterly disappointed if they're denied that opportunity.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 19, 2020, 11:48:51 AM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire   the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..

If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 01:42:15 PM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire   the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..

If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?

10-12 regional professional teams
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 03:29:39 PM
if you win the tier2 cup are you guaranteed Sam mcguire   the following year .
Yes if I recall correctly..

If we are to abolish County due to differences in population etc etc what do we put in its place?

10-12 regional professional teams
Personally I'd have no interest in supporting a team like this. I'm sure there's plenty like me. We've grown up used to the county system and affiliated to the players representing us.
 For a proper professional system to work I'd imagine there would also have to be free movement of players so you could have a team of players representing a region not from the region. Maybe you could have a quota that a certain amount have to be local but you'd have to get the percentage right.
 Who knows what will happen in the future. It would certainly be a terrific lifestyle for anyone good enough to make a living from it but it would take some work to get to the stage where it would be financially viable. Next generations would have to buy into it big time.
 How it would effect the club game would be another gamble. It would certainly alleviate fixtures congestion but funding would be a problem. Ireland is a small country and there is a limit to how big the pie can get. If you pay Paul you rob Peter.
 
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:39:42 PM
There no reason why cork and galway can not be challengers
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Eire90 on February 19, 2020, 03:41:11 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 05:20:10 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 19, 2020, 06:49:46 PM
And will you have professional hurling teams too?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 07:38:59 PM
And will you have professional hurling teams too?

I wouldnít argue for or against it. Iíd wait and see.



Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: From the Bunker on February 19, 2020, 07:47:15 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 08:03:24 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: AFM on February 19, 2020, 08:31:04 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?

It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 10:32:47 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?

It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.

Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 19, 2020, 11:48:59 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?

It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.

Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 19, 2020, 11:54:01 PM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?

It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.

Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.

Your assumptions about no fan base and no stadia are baseless.

When rugby went pro did england move from Twickenham, did ireland move from Lansdowne and so on and so on.

Did fans stop attending? No theyíve attended like never before since the game went pro.

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: BennyCake on February 20, 2020, 12:11:42 AM
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.

So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? Iím gonna give him a slap next time I see him.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: square_ball on February 20, 2020, 09:25:27 AM
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.

So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? Iím gonna give him a slap next time I see him.

Surely thatís through one of those ticketing websites? I remember getting tickets through Dungannon rugby club a few years ago and they certainly were nowhere near that price.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 10:53:05 AM
so are we talking about the american franchise system

We are talking about the elite level of GAA being professional like the way elite sport works in every country on earth. You can follow a model or build your own model to suit. Thereís no requirement to copy the US franchise model.

You have one big problem that is necessary to have a Professional sport in a country. Population!

The intercounty game generated 73 million in revenue last year and thatís in an era where we see a team thatís practically unbeatable.

How much revenue would you need to see the GAA able to have before thinking it could have a viable professional league?

It's revenue would collapse if it went professional.

Baseless scaremongering IMO.
Hardly baseless. Without a fanbase no revenue. Plus there'd be a lot of sorting out who owns what before a pro game could be established. What stadia would be used. Who owns them. County boards would be out the door in a pro era so would hardly just hand over massive capital assets. New builds wouldn't be an option. Donor money drives a lot of the economy in the GAA too (both on and off books). This would dry up. There's no guarantee there'd be any traction for this new setup.

Your assumptions about no fan base and no stadia are baseless.

When rugby went pro did england move from Twickenham, did ireland move from Lansdowne and so on and so on.

Did fans stop attending? No theyíve attended like never before since the game went pro.
I didn't make any assumptions. I pointed out facts that a professional team needs a home stadium and a fan base neither of which obviously exist at the minute. It's a big assumption to think fans will automatically start following completely new "franchises" in large viable numbers country wide and that these franchises will handily get access to stadia currently controlled by county boards or local clubs.
 I don't get your reference to Twickenham or Lansdowne or what international rugby has to do with what would be a completely indigenous professional sport unique only to Ireland.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on February 20, 2020, 11:01:03 AM
I think his point that a Leitrim on expenses, a semi pro Louth or a fully pro Dublin won't see fans boycotting.

However once money is involved, contracts are involved and we have a transfer system.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 11:06:19 AM
But if you have West Ulster, West Dublin, Midlands.......
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on February 20, 2020, 11:15:39 AM
But if you have West Ulster, West Dublin, Midlands.......

At least with rugby the provinces were a thing beforehand. And two of them still wobbled financially. Does West Ulster have an identity people will ditch Donegsl for? Because one thing rugby showed was the club game was brutally murdered. Why would the county game not go the same way?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 11:25:05 AM
I think his point that a Leitrim on expenses, a semi pro Louth or a fully pro Dublin won't see fans boycotting.

However once money is involved, contracts are involved and we have a transfer system.
But he's talking about moving away from the inter county system and having 10-12 new franchises as the new pro competition.
 People quite rightly are having a little difficulty trying to grasp where the revenue would come from to make this work.
 If Gaelic games were hugely popular sports in UK, France, Italy. If UK could supply approx 20 pro teams, France approx 15, Italy another 2, then comparisons to rugby would be valid and there would be a huge market to get your revenue stream from. But this is not the case. 
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: JoG2 on February 20, 2020, 11:28:46 AM
Speaking of rugby numbers. Spoke to someone who goes to the odd game. I asked how much, and was told about £200 a ticket. f**k off I says. I thought they were taking the piss.

So I priced a ticket v Italy in March. Sure enough, cheapest £190. Sweet mother of divine Christ! What the f**k is wrong with people?? Iím gonna give him a slap next time I see him.

eh? I've been to the 2 previous Italy games and paid no more than £48 for my ticket
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 11:38:47 AM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 12:18:51 PM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
 Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=Ä30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.




Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 12:25:25 PM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
 Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=Ä30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.

Why is it a tangent? Someone said the GAA/County boards wonít allow pro teams and players in their ground. I showed via the current financial realities that if the GAA and county boards canít fill their grounds they become financially endangered. Not a tangent at all.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 03:42:57 PM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?
Ah here look, we're going way off on a tangent now. I don't know what would happen there but for the IC players looking for money, to have any balance of power, they would have to have the full support of the ordinary club player and the paying customer that goes to games.
 Maybe if you could explain where you think the money would come from and the format.
So 10-12 teams?
League format=22 games per year(11 home)?
Squad size=35?
Management team=10?
Average Attendance=25,000?
Entry fee=Ä30?
TV/Sponsorship Revenue=?
Running costs/wage percentage?
I think I'm being extremely optimistic with the numbers there but that's where you would need to be at to be able to keep the show on the road.

Why is it a tangent? Someone said the GAA/County boards wonít allow pro teams and players in their ground. I showed via the current financial realities that if the GAA and county boards canít fill their grounds they become financially endangered. Not a tangent at all.
So a few elite players constitute for the majority of the Ä70m taken in by the GAA and if they walk away all fans would follow them so no more revenue for GAA? Is this what you're saying? Because you still haven't told me how the professional system would work.
 Here's a bit of reality for you. Some of our best players walked away from the panel this year. But we still have a full panel. We've won a few games already and we're out again playing Saturday. And people actually pay to see us.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 04:39:26 PM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?

It actually doesnít matter who you perceive as having the balance of power financially.

It really doesnít.

The GAA, by constitution, will not permit non-GAA games in its grounds (with some leeway for Croker). A breakaway professional organisation would not be part of the GAA.

So it would require a constitutional change with over 67% of votes, before any ground apart from Croke could be used. If this motion is rejected (which if would be, as no county board in its right mind would sanction something that could signal its own demise), it would be off the table for 3 years.

There might be bit of heartache and soul searching within the GAA in that 3 year period. But the GPAís new administrative body, without any semblance of a place to showcase its product, simply wouldnít survive it. No institution in Ireland would bankroll it to take on the GAA when the result is pre-ordained. And the international appeal simply doesnít exist for the GPA to grow wings beyond Ireland.

As far as Iím concerned, bring it on lads. This is not a battle the GPA can win.

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 05:06:12 PM
When did the GPA set up a breakaway body?
Must have missed that.
Or is it just some lad on this forum musing on what a professional Gaelic football set up might look like.
In the unlikely event of it happening it will be about 2080 when the population of all Ireland might reach 10m.
It would be an official GAA set up.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 05:08:12 PM
So suppose the players strike as they want to go pro. The county boards say go ahead but you canít use our grounds. An impasse occurs.

No repayments can be made by say cork for Pairc hi caiomh and Cork GAA goes bankrupt as itís uncome is decimated. No games in Croke Park. The GAAís financial burden escalates as the 70 million the county players bring in annually is gone.

You think itís the GAA and the county board who hold the balance of power in this impasse?

It actually doesnít matter who you perceive as having the balance of power financially.

It really doesnít.

The GAA, by constitution, will not permit non-GAA games in its grounds (with some leeway for Croker). A breakaway professional organisation would not be part of the GAA.

So it would require a constitutional change with over 67% of votes, before any ground apart from Croke could be used. If this motion is rejected (which if would be, as no county board in its right mind would sanction something that could signal its own demise), it would be off the table for 3 years.

There might be bit of heartache and soul searching within the GAA in that 3 year period. But the GPAís new administrative body, without any semblance of a place to showcase its product, simply wouldnít survive it. No institution in Ireland would bankroll it to take on the GAA when the result is pre-ordained. And the international appeal simply doesnít exist for the GPA to grow wings beyond Ireland.

As far as Iím concerned, bring it on lads. This is not a battle the GPA can win.
You are quite correct wobbler. An even if a highly advanced extra terrestrial civilization landed over night and in the morning there were 10-12 brand new stadia available for a new association free of charge, they would still have revenue issues and they would still need a talent pool to draw from.
 Talent scouting local club matches would not suffice. There would still need to be a high amateur level for the best amateurs to showcase their talents. So underage IC competitions and IC senior competitions would be the most obvious. County boards would not necessarily go the way of the dodo. And county football would still have a big draw of support. So I still cannot see where the pro game would get the foot fall from.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:18:34 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:18:39 PM
When did the GPA set up a breakaway body?
Must have missed that.
Or is it just some lad on this forum musing on what a professional Gaelic football set up might look like.
In the unlikely event of it happening it will be about 2080 when the population of all Ireland might reach 10m.
It would be an official GAA set up.

If their demands finally arrive at semi-professionalism (or professionalism) there are only two ways for this demand to be met.

1. Constitutional change in the GAA.
2. A breakaway organisation, which would probably die anyway without constitutional change in the GAA.

Neither is happening.

The GPA has much, much less sway than it thinks.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:22:22 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:24:12 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because itís stadiums are empty?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:25:09 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.

So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because itís stadiums are empty?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2020, 05:28:18 PM
What us the GAA "constitution"?
An Treůir Oifigiķil?
60% required to change things in the TO.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 05:39:54 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.

So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because itís stadiums are empty?

The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.

That is something very, very different to ďstanding back and watching while their organisation goes to ruinĒ.

By the way I donít know want planet youíre from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I donít want to visit that planet. Itís far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 05:42:47 PM
Caprea. You came on here asking people to read your blog and give their opinions. Many have done so to the subject asked, very reasonable replies IMO, but you haven't shown the courtesy to answer one straight simple question put to you many times on how this setup would work or where the revenue would come from. You now seem to have gotten you back up and keep harping on about some Ä70m figure as if it would go up in a puff of smoke if a few IC players refused to don the boots. I don't believe it's possible to have a reasonable discussion with you. So for that reason I'm out.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:46:48 PM
Caprea. You came on here asking people to read your blog and give their opinions. Many have done so to the subject asked, very reasonable replies IMO, but you haven't shown the courtesy to answer one straight simple question put to you many times on how this setup would work or where the revenue would come from. You now seem to have gotten you back up and keep harping on about some Ä70m figure as if it would go up in a puff of smoke if a few IC players refused to don the boots. I don't believe it's possible to have a reasonable discussion with you. So for that reason I'm out.

Ok, I think youíre being a thin skinned. You posted something that I argued against and then When I did that you said I was going on a tangent (for replying to your argument). Just found that a bit baffling..

Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 05:54:01 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.

So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because itís stadiums are empty?

The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.

That is something very, very different to ďstanding back and watching while their organisation goes to ruinĒ.

By the way I donít know want planet youíre from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I donít want to visit that planet. Itís far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.

So the GAAís members will not bow to the wishes of the elite players and hence will go into ruin/ become financially insolvent because their 60-70 million revenue from the county game will be gone?

We canít really move on with the argument until you address this.

Your reply above is rhetoric but it doesnít address how the GAA would meet things like their repayments on Pairc Ui caoimh without the money from the county game, the sponsorship of the county game, the TV deals of the county game.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 06:05:05 PM
It was actually a tongue in cheek reply but no harm.
And the "rhetoric" Wobbler posted I actually found very funny and on the money.
No worries. But I think the only one having an issue moving on to a proper discussion is you.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 20, 2020, 06:10:03 PM
So a body that reports 70 million revenue in the current climate where Dublin are virtually unbeatable and most countiesí fans donít go to games in numbers anymore canít support a professional game? Ireland is too small?

And the GAA wonít open up grounds to the pro game? They would rather go bankrupt and in ruin because they can no longer service their debts due to have a annual hole in their accounts of 60-70 million?

Yes is basically your answer to both those questions?

The answer is in the constitution.

Whether you like it or not, it was devised to protect the interests of our members. Iím sure there are umpteen times central council would have love to rail against parts of it over the past 130 years, but that simply proves its purpose.

You can make up fantasy doomsday scenarios to your heartís content. But first you have to get past the constitution.

So Yes is your answer, members will stand by while their organisation goes into ruin because itís stadiums are empty?

The constitution is designed to prevent knee jerk decisions, and designed to prevent a minority of members changing the direction of the organisation for their own needs.

That is something very, very different to ďstanding back and watching while their organisation goes to ruinĒ.

By the way I donít know want planet youíre from. But it seems to be a planet in which one day Paul Flynn leads a strike, and the next day the GAA, with its hundreds of thousand of members, and thousands of clubs, is burning to the ground. I donít want to visit that planet. Itís far too swift, volatile and conclusive to be anything like here on Earth.

So the GAAís members will not bow to the wishes of the elite players and hence will go into ruin/ become financially insolvent because their 60-70 million revenue from the county game will be gone?

We canít really move on with the argument until you address this.

Your reply above is rhetoric but it doesnít address how the GAA would meet things like their repayments on Pairc Ui caoimh without the money from the county game, the sponsorship of the county game, the TV deals of the county game.

The elite players will be replaced by people who want to play the intercounty game for the love of it. The GAA may loss some revenue due to some stars not being involved in the short term but will continue in the same vain and soon the elite will realise they don't have the power. Most will come back again, some won't, but will be replaced. This is more likely than giving into the elite player demands. And the way I would want it to go.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 06:10:17 PM
Oh ffs caprea would you please try to apply some logic and fact instead of continually emptying out the same abysmal and ungrounded fantasy doomsday notion as your stock reply?

Itís like talking to a robot who has been programmed not to analyse, but only to repeat.

óó

Gate receipts were Ä36m last year. Thatís from over 200 games in hurling and football. Take out the all Ireland finals and the football replay, and itís going to be closer to £20m revenue from 200 games. REVENUE not profit. About Ä100k a game on average REVENUE from a loyal support based upon county lines and birthrights.

If you think that this loss of turnover would be absolutely destructive to the GAA, but at the same time, believe that this level of turnover, less costs, could support upwards on 400 professionals, then put simply you are absolutely f**king nuts.



Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 06:24:52 PM
Oh ffs caprea would you please try to apply some logic and fact instead of continually emptying out the same abysmal and ungrounded fantasy doomsday notion as your stock reply?

Itís like talking to a robot who has been programmed not to analyse, but only to repeat.

óó

Gate receipts were Ä36m last year. Thatís from over 200 games in hurling and football. Take out the all Ireland finals and the football replay, and itís going to be closer to £20m revenue from 200 games. REVENUE not profit. About Ä100k a game on average REVENUE from a loyal support based upon county lines and birthrights.

If you think that this loss of turnover would be absolutely destructive to the GAA, but at the same time, believe that this level of turnover, less costs, could support upwards on 400 professionals, then put simply you are absolutely f**king nuts.

Youíre angry because you know you didnít have a satisfactory answer for the question of would the GAA vote themselves into financially insolvency.

Anyway, costing wise to cover 35 players and 10 staff For 12 teams youíd need to find about 35 million assuming an average salary of 70k a year For players and 40k for coaches. Thatís fairly generous.

You immediately find 6 million of that easily because the Annual grant of 6 million from GAA to GPA is gone so 29 million for the ďtalentĒ. Agreed?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 06:33:01 PM
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect Ä29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?

Youíre really not getting these numbers at all.

I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 06:50:18 PM
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect Ä29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?

Youíre really not getting these numbers at all.

I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.
Peter Jones would be scratching his head!!!!
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: caprea on February 20, 2020, 06:53:12 PM
And with a reduced number of games, all of which would incur a stadium rental fee, you expect Ä29m of clear profit (not revenue) to appear, to cover direct salaries alone?

Youíre really not getting these numbers at all.

I might as well talk Chinese to a fish.

Ok so you agree with my figure of 29 million I take it? I donít get the stadium rental fee youíre talking about. Who are they going to be renting off?

But moving on, So Dublin GAAís accounts show last year that theyíve an income of 5.24 million, https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-gaas-annual-commercial-income-breaks-through-the-2m-barrier-38779148.html . Dublin are a great example of a professional outfit because unlike any other county they do almost no fundraising. Fundraising would not exist in the pro era, so as I say Dublin are a great example for seeing how the game could go pro.

So letís look at their income of 5.24 million and the new system is budgeted for 12 teams that are comparable in size to Dublin. So letís say they each have a income far under 5 million. Say 3 million. 3 million by 12 teams equals 36 million. Now of course Dublin have expenditure as well which we will come to as well.

Are you with me so far?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 07:09:53 PM
STADIUM RENTAL 101
Who is going to prepare the pitch?
Who is going to clean and prep the stadium?
Who has operational control before before, during and after the match?
Who does ticketing?
Who does stewarding?
Who does catering?
Who cleans up afterwards?
Who installs and removes the marketing signage for the pro league?

How would insurance work for spectators?
How would medical care work for spectators?
Where does pro-team-Dublin set up its shop to sell gear?

óó-

Surely you donít expect any of this to come free?
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: thewobbler on February 20, 2020, 07:14:56 PM
Iím also at a complete f**king loss, a complete f**king loss as to why you keep talking about potential income as though itís accrued without expenses.


If youíre now going to tell me that pro-GAA would be able to secure a better tv rights deal than the current GAA deal (which guarantees TV two of its biggest paydays per year, and half a dozen very good ones), then Iím done with you completely.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: Look-Up! on February 20, 2020, 07:27:32 PM
I reckon each team would need 10M per year to fund themselves. That's 120M for the pro game. The amateur game would still need revenue and to be run separate from this figure. So you're talking trebling the current GAA market cap.
Then you would need to have 35% for wages and somehow run everything else off the remainder and hope to not go broke. New/rented stadia and training facilities would most certainly have to be factored in to the 65%.
 You'd need average attendance of about 25000 for a 22 game season plus TV monies/sponsorship to get to 120M charging punters Ä30 entry.
 This is assuming everything run to absolute maximum efficiency.
So yeah, no worries. Build it. Sure someone might come.
Title: Re: Has the intercounty system in football told us all itís ever going to tell us?
Post by: From the Bunker on February 20, 2020, 08:12:12 PM
Many look to Rugby as a template for having a professional GAA in this country.

Rugby have 4 professional Clubs. It in turn piggybacks on Clubs from Scotland, Wales and Italy for a domestic League. Rugby have Scotland, Wales, Italy, France and England for a European Cup competition. They also have a International options the six Nations, winter tests and the World Cup every 4 years. With all of these Irish Rugby can generate revenue from fans outside of Ireland. All of GAA revenue has to be generated from within Ireland and we just don't have the population on our own to sustain a professional game.