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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Denn Forever on January 11, 2020, 11:43:57 AM

Title: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Denn Forever on January 11, 2020, 11:43:57 AM
The government's back.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-51071827

how about, I'm just spit ballin here, the First and Deputy first ministers come from the parties that came 3rd and 4th?  Couldn't be any worse (I know they could) and they wouldn't be so big that there members would not be forcing red lines on them.

Hold a minute I have feed my Unicorn.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2020, 12:59:08 PM
I love the bit where the fkn Orange Order says it has "serious concerns about the Irish language provisions and it cant support the deal".

Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 02:01:34 PM
Is gaire cabhair Boris nŠ an doras.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 04:57:20 PM
Michelle O'Neill has no problem with the Gaeilge

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/new-executive-appointed-as-stormont-returns-after-three-years-of-stalemate-38852879.html
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: trailer on January 11, 2020, 05:47:06 PM
It's great to see them all back. Now the actual work begins.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 11, 2020, 10:14:34 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 11, 2020, 10:45:32 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.

As long as they sort out Casement, flyover at the M2 westlink, education, and more importantly the health services. Then they can f**k off
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: BennyCake on January 11, 2020, 10:51:04 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.

Iíll give it 6 weeks.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 12, 2020, 12:23:35 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.

As long as they sort out Casement, flyover at the M2 westlink, education, and more importantly the health services. Then they can f**k off

Itís slightly incredible that a man who, only a few short months ago, wanted to spend the traditional "more time with the family", suddenly performs an about turn & takes on the Health Department - possibly the worst job of them all. That doesn't quite stack up. Plus, it doesn't look like you need to have been in Stormont at all to become a Minister nowadays. Two of the new Ministers have been at Stormont I'd say for at least a week. Do you get the impression now that the RHI report has been watered down in the interim & that Foster thinks she won't be getting her P45?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 12, 2020, 12:55:26 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.

As long as they sort out Casement, flyover at the M2 westlink, education, and more importantly the health services. Then they can f**k off

Itís slightly incredible that a man who, only a few short months ago, wanted to spend the traditional "more time with the family", suddenly performs an about turn & takes on the Health Department - possibly the worst job of them all. That doesn't quite stack up. Plus, it doesn't look like you need to have been in Stormont at all to become a Minister nowadays. Two of the new Ministers have been at Stormont I'd say for at least a week. Do you get the impression now that the RHI report has been watered down in the interim & that Foster thinks she won't be getting her P45?

It will be well watered down and both DUP/SF will be in cahoots on that
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: smelmoth on January 12, 2020, 02:11:53 PM
No doubt MR2 and Playwiththewind1st will inform us what the report said before it was watered down and why the independent investigators will have changed their report?

The evidence was held in public so there isnít going to be any big surprises. Anybody expecting a smoking gun would do well to pinpoint the smoking gun in the public evidence that they are relying on.

Basically we have to anticipate a milder version of McBrideís book. After all McBride has all the same evidence but is a (damn good) journalist with a book to sell rather than a judge.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 12, 2020, 02:24:23 PM
No doubt MR2 and Playwiththewind1st will inform us what the report said before it was watered down and why the independent investigators will have changed their report?

The evidence was held in public so there isnít going to be any big surprises. Anybody expecting a smoking gun would do well to pinpoint the smoking gun in the public evidence that they are relying on.

Basically we have to anticipate a milder version of McBrideís book. After all McBride has all the same evidence but is a (damn good) journalist with a book to sell rather than a judge.

It's no secret that the report was shown to certain people, quite a while back & they had the opportunity to ahem 'comment' on the proposed contents.  I believe it was Robert Maxwell kicked this all off years ago, with a legal challenge.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: smelmoth on January 12, 2020, 02:29:01 PM
I would give it 6 months, tops.

Iíll give it 6 weeks.

Who knows.

SF and DUP can do this with the other 3 parties or possibly as a duopoly if they can agree on the Justice portfolio.

Neither wants an election. Impossible to conceive of any election not resulting in both parties getting a reduced number of seats.

It is finally dawned on some within DUP that their electoral success is built upon a coalition of extreme bigots (which TUV aside will always vote and always vote DUP) and pragmatic unionists who vote for the likely winning unionist ticket (who wonít keep voting for the current shambles). The latter group only have to drift from DUP by the amount of the seat winning margins. Seat winning margins have got a lot smaller as the centre have rallied around Alliance - especially younger voters.

SF have had to wake up to 4 key issues;
1. Running away from government in NI doesnít help you convince the RoI electorate that you are a viable alternative.
2. Power sharing in NI has to work for a UI to be a possibility. The RoI referendum on a UI isnít going to vote in favour of taking on a problem.
3. Power sharing has to work beyond a UI. You donít want to set the precedent and blueprint for fecking about with power sharing for truculent unionists to follow.
4. Right here and now the nationalist electorate wonít keep voting for SF to do nothing.

SF and DUP have probably finally worked out that politics isnít just about elections and salaries
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: smelmoth on January 12, 2020, 02:33:00 PM
No doubt MR2 and Playwiththewind1st will inform us what the report said before it was watered down and why the independent investigators will have changed their report?

The evidence was held in public so there isnít going to be any big surprises. Anybody expecting a smoking gun would do well to pinpoint the smoking gun in the public evidence that they are relying on.

Basically we have to anticipate a milder version of McBrideís book. After all McBride has all the same evidence but is a (damn good) journalist with a book to sell rather than a judge.

It's no secret that the report was shown to certain people, quite a while back & they had the opportunity to ahem 'comment' on the proposed contents.  I believe it was Robert Maxwell kicked this all off years ago, with a legal challenge.

By ďcertain peopleĒ you no doubt mean everyone criticised in the report. Standard practice in any inquiry.

By ďcommentĒ you no doubt mean be given the opportunity to mount a legal challenge to the criticism via judicial review prior to publication. Again standard practice.

Are you inferring that something untoward is at play??
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 12, 2020, 03:28:53 PM
Well Snarlene is certainly looking fairly chipper & somewhat more smug than she has any right to be, given her trials & tribulations.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: smelmoth on January 12, 2020, 04:14:36 PM
Well Snarlene is certainly looking fairly chipper & somewhat more smug than she has any right to be, given her trials & tribulations.

You are not seriously claiming that from that you concluded that the report is being watered down??
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: GJL on January 12, 2020, 04:30:58 PM
Well Snarlene is certainly looking fairly chipper & somewhat more smug than she has any right to be, given her trials & tribulations.

You are not seriously claiming that from that you concluded that the report is being watered down??

Maybe there are other reasons why she is feeling satisfied? 🤔
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2020, 05:46:42 AM
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/01/12/the-orange-orders-complex-relationship-with-the-irish-language/
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: johnnycool on January 13, 2020, 11:31:34 AM
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/01/12/the-orange-orders-complex-relationship-with-the-irish-language/

If that's written by Mick Fealty then at some point it's the Shinners fault.

Interesting to hear Farmer Poots rowing back slightly on the Irish language act this morning with fat boy Nolan in that it was indeed the Presbyterians who were at the forefront to reviving it back in the day.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Pub Bore on January 13, 2020, 11:51:35 AM
Interesting that the SDLP avoided Health and the reason given TV yesterday was that the extra money for the Health Service here wasn't guaranteed for the long term.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: armaghniac on January 13, 2020, 12:12:11 PM
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/01/12/the-orange-orders-complex-relationship-with-the-irish-language/

If that's written by Mick Fealty then at some point it's the Shinners fault.

Mick isn't responsible for this one. He does have it in for the Shinners, which is often deserved, although in recent times they've been well behind Arlene's gang.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Orior on January 13, 2020, 12:34:44 PM
https://sluggerotoole.com/2020/01/12/the-orange-orders-complex-relationship-with-the-irish-language/

If that's written by Mick Fealty then at some point it's the Shinners fault.

Interesting to hear Farmer Poots rowing back slightly on the Irish language act this morning with fat boy Nolan in that it was indeed the Presbyterians who were at the forefront to reviving it back in the day.

Are you Squinter? lol
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: GetOverTheBar on January 13, 2020, 12:39:26 PM
Colum Eastwood been blindsided by SF already. Good start to cooperation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-51089376
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: trailer on January 13, 2020, 05:06:04 PM
Colum Eastwood been blindsided by SF already. Good start to cooperation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-51089376

Is anyone surprised. The carve up continues.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2020, 09:16:46 AM
Colum Eastwood been blindsided by SF already. Good start to cooperation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-51089376

Is anyone surprised. The carve up continues.

Carve up? Isn't the concept of the biggest parties having the biggest representation not the whole idea of democracy?

If Colum was so interested in the 'top jobs', why did his party (once again) refuse to take on the Health Ministry, having based their entire campaign around the issue of health?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2020, 09:25:49 AM
Is the Alliance party so devoid of talent that they have to put Naomi in for any and every position they have available? She was made party leader, then became their European election candidate, their East Belfast candidate in the GE and now has taken on their sole Ministerial position.

You have to wonder does she just not trust anybody else? Or is she believing her own hype a bit too much? Or does she or the rest of her party deep down believe they have no other capable representatives beyond her? Or could she be just trying to get into every well paid position she can?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Eire90 on January 14, 2020, 09:46:09 AM
Its just a big show its all theatre.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 14, 2020, 10:34:18 AM
Is the Alliance party so devoid of talent that they have to put Naomi in for any and every position they have available? She was made party leader, then became their European election candidate, their East Belfast candidate in the GE and now has taken on their sole Ministerial position.

You have to wonder does she just not trust anybody else? Or is she believing her own hype a bit too much? Or does she or the rest of her party deep down believe they have no other capable representatives beyond her? Or could she be just trying to get into every well paid position she can?

They have an MP, they won the Strangford seat, she is from East Belfast (Mersey Street) and won the seat of Robinson way back so only natural she went for that seat again, was Lord Mayor and natural candidate to take over the leadership of the party, she speaks very well and comes across as a nice person, how that works in politics is a different matter.

Well paid, what does a Justice minister get these days?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: johnnycool on January 14, 2020, 10:38:37 AM
Is the Alliance party so devoid of talent that they have to put Naomi in for any and every position they have available? She was made party leader, then became their European election candidate, their East Belfast candidate in the GE and now has taken on their sole Ministerial position.

You have to wonder does she just not trust anybody else? Or is she believing her own hype a bit too much? Or does she or the rest of her party deep down believe they have no other capable representatives beyond her? Or could she be just trying to get into every well paid position she can?

They have an MP, they won the Strangford seat, she is from East Belfast (Mersey Street) and won the seat of Robinson way back so only natural she went for that seat again, was Lord Mayor and natural candidate to take over the leadership of the party, she speaks very well and comes across as a nice person, how that works in politics is a different matter.

Well paid, what does a Justice minister get these days?

North Down, I presume you ment.

Alliance's hand was forced in North Down when Sylvia unexpectedly stood down as they weren't going to field a candidate there and at that point Naomi was their only real candidate.

Farry is a capable enough individual, but where do they go after that to fill roles?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 10:46:15 AM
Well Nordies, Bozo breezed in for the photo shoot, patted MichelleArlene on the heads, says there'll be lots of money and everything will be fine.
Then breezed off without signing any cheques.
I'm sure ye all feel so much better now.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: GetOverTheBar on January 14, 2020, 11:05:57 AM
Well Nordies, Bozo breezed in for the photo shoot, patted MichelleArlene on the heads, says there'll be lots of money and everything will be fine.
Then breezed off without signing any cheques.
I'm sure ye all feel so much better now.

What is the exact point you are making with this type of post?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 11:06:00 AM
Well paid, what does a Justice minister get these days?

The hourly rate of the last one was through the f**king roof.

It was tending toward infinity at one point there...
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Snapchap on January 14, 2020, 11:39:10 AM
Is the Alliance party so devoid of talent that they have to put Naomi in for any and every position they have available? She was made party leader, then became their European election candidate, their East Belfast candidate in the GE and now has taken on their sole Ministerial position.

You have to wonder does she just not trust anybody else? Or is she believing her own hype a bit too much? Or does she or the rest of her party deep down believe they have no other capable representatives beyond her? Or could she be just trying to get into every well paid position she can?

They have an MP, they won the Strangford seat, she is from East Belfast (Mersey Street) and won the seat of Robinson way back so only natural she went for that seat again, was Lord Mayor and natural candidate to take over the leadership of the party, she speaks very well and comes across as a nice person, how that works in politics is a different matter.

Well paid, what does a Justice minister get these days?

Fair enough for her to be standing as MP in her own area, and no qualms about her becoming party leader when she is clearly their most popular/capable rep. It just strikes me as poor for the optics when she is the only one to be given the big roles. I actually forgot about Belfast Mayor role too.

At a time when her party is on the crest of a wave, it seems odd that she is content to appear as the only one in the party that can be trusted to take all of on the big roles.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 03:12:06 PM
At a time when her party is on the crest of a wave, it seems odd that she is content to appear as the only one in the party that can be trusted to take all of on the big roles.

Yeah, they are not exactly doing much to grow the profile of other party members.

Like it or not - the electorate are more comfortable with someone they recognise over a significant time period - despite how good or bad that person is - case in point - Bozo.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: trailer on January 15, 2020, 10:46:06 AM
At a time when her party is on the crest of a wave, it seems odd that she is content to appear as the only one in the party that can be trusted to take all of on the big roles.

Yeah, they are not exactly doing much to grow the profile of other party members.

Like it or not - the electorate are more comfortable with someone they recognise over a significant time period - despite how good or bad that person is - case in point - Bozo.

It appears to be the Naomi show.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Sportacus on January 15, 2020, 01:00:14 PM
The elephant in the room is that we have thousands of civil servants in safe jobs pushing paper around and not doing anything particularly productive.  Anyone working in frontline education can verify that.  Plus, sadly many families expectations are a life on welfare and many people are actively trying to get disability diagnosis to secure benefits.  Harsh truth which no one dare speak publicly of.  Therefore the North will continue to be riddled by self-inflicted financial waste of taxpayers money, with absolutely no prospect of the parties having the desire or balls to challenge it.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Keyser soze on January 15, 2020, 01:10:26 PM
It is a massive vote winner for political parties to advise and assist people to get and obtain the maximum amount of benefits. They employ many people in each constituency office to process social welfare claims all paid for by the public purse which quite frankly is not their job and should not be publicly funded.

It is depressing to see parents actively and vociferously advocating disability diagnosis and a life of dossing for their offspring when they should be inspiring them to reach for the stars. 
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 15, 2020, 01:11:20 PM
The elephant in the room is that we have thousands tens of thousands of civil servants in safe jobs pushing paper around and not doing anything particularly productive.  Anyone working in frontline education can verify that.  Plus, sadly many families expectations are a life on welfare and many people are actively trying to get disability diagnosis to secure benefits.  Harsh truth which no one dare speak publicly of.  Therefore the North will continue to be riddled by self-inflicted financial waste of taxpayers money, with absolutely no prospect of the parties having the desire or balls to challenge it.

Fixed that for ye.

Absolutely right. The civil service needs cleared out and completely reformed - their "working" practices are embarassingly shite.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: trailer on January 15, 2020, 03:44:37 PM
The civil service is full of people who wouldn't get jobs in the private sector. Incompetence, laziness and chaos reigns.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: whitey on January 15, 2020, 04:04:28 PM
https://www.joeofarrellblog.com/blog/2020/1/6/getting-to-the-truth?fbclid=IwAR2k-_wuwgRF6QkXW4o90Bsb9pgrIQp6l2e5LxXMopC4Tmp1_KQWhOMd9BI


Interesting reading
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: BennyCake on January 15, 2020, 04:04:56 PM
Has Casement been built yet?
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: J70 on January 15, 2020, 05:27:49 PM
https://www.joeofarrellblog.com/blog/2020/1/6/getting-to-the-truth?fbclid=IwAR2k-_wuwgRF6QkXW4o90Bsb9pgrIQp6l2e5LxXMopC4Tmp1_KQWhOMd9BI


Interesting reading

 ;D
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: marty34 on January 15, 2020, 07:10:26 PM
At a time when her party is on the crest of a wave, it seems odd that she is content to appear as the only one in the party that can be trusted to take all of on the big roles.

Yeah, they are not exactly doing much to grow the profile of other party members.

Like it or not - the electorate are more comfortable with someone they recognise over a significant time period - despite how good or bad that person is - case in point - Bozo.

It appears to be the Naomi show.

Similar to the Eastwood show - I see him here, I see him there...I see him everywhere!!!
He was the one crying about the need for a 'local' SDLP to be leading from Stormont now he's in London, he thinks it's ok for the London leader to run things in Stormont.

He must be back in Belfast after he stopped Brexit but I wonder when he'll tell us all that he stopped Brexit.  I await the announcement.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 15, 2020, 08:50:31 PM
Has Casement been built yet?

Nope but seen another minister at Casement with letís get it built poster! Where have you been ffs! Itís another photo opportunity and hey we still vote them in!
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Sportacus on January 15, 2020, 09:09:27 PM
Two Ministers no less. 
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Fionntamhnach on January 15, 2020, 09:59:31 PM
The elephant in the room is that we have thousands of civil servants in safe jobs pushing paper around and not doing anything particularly productive.  Anyone working in frontline education can verify that.  Plus, sadly many families expectations are a life on welfare and many people are actively trying to get disability diagnosis to secure benefits.  Harsh truth which no one dare speak publicly of.  Therefore the North will continue to be riddled by self-inflicted financial waste of taxpayers money, with absolutely no prospect of the parties having the desire or balls to challenge it.

I obtained a disability diagnosis nearly a decade ago (well into adulthood) not with the main idea of being able to obtain benefits, but rather to (a) help give myself protection and aid when it came to employment matters, and (b) to have a formal medical result for my bigger picture physically, mentally and emotionally - this is hard to describe how much it means. The main problem is that my diagnosed disability has no obvious physical signs, so far too many idiots think there's nothing wrong with me at all.  >:(

Also as regards to the "harsh truth", persons applying for PIP are entitled to benefits wherever they are working or not. You can be working 40 hour weeks and still get the high rate of both components of PIP - this should not be confused with ESA or its replacement within the scope of Universal Credit, which all ESA claimants in NI are expected to be transferred across to within the next 2-3 years. ESA is means tested for those applying via income support.

As to the public sector in the north, I've mentioned this several times before - whilst the percentage of the workforce in NI employed in the public sector in higher than down south, or across in Scotland, England or Wales, the general amount of people that are considered employed in the public sector per head of population in NI is only marginally higher the UK average. Granted, the last figures I have at hand were for the beginning of the last decade, but it's only within the last 3 to 4 years that the NICS has went on an administration recruitment drive after a freeze in 2008 and in that time, some governmental departments that had their own NI based service have been merged with their GB counterparts, the main one being the DVA, while the reduction of councils from 26 to 11 has seen the redundancy of some overlapping roles in local government. Indeed, the % of the NI workforce employed in the public sector has been steadily going down (it might now be <30%, which would be in terms of percentages less than that for Norway, for example) over the last three decades. What makes the NI economy appear public-sector dominated overall is not so much that it is massively bloated compared to its neighbours, but that the private sector is consistently weak, with few large businesses that are either  native & strongly export-led, or are major multinational bases, both of whom tend to be the big economic drivers in todays world - there are plenty of SME's but in terms of their value productivity they don't have, worker for worker, the same economic impact. Also, I've worked in the NICS before (and in the private sector as well as self-employed), and in my experience some element of reform is needed but it is an utterly lazy generalisation that everyone's a paper pusher or a dosser - there's certainly a few "swinging the led" but in my experience, aside from a very small amount that take the piss and seem untouchable, it's no worse than many large private-sector businesses of similar employment sizes in terms of some workers not pulling their weight with the rest having to pull them along. The smaller the business, the less easy it becomes to hide your flaws or laziness to your employer or fellow employees and thus easier to be told to buck up or lose out.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Tony Baloney on January 15, 2020, 10:27:15 PM
Fionn you are right that people swing the lead in many organisations but in my company (several thousand people) if you were at the shite I hear about in the silly service you'd be out the door. Difference we have is no unions defending the indefensible.
Title: Re: There's an elephant in the room.
Post by: Fionntamhnach on January 15, 2020, 10:42:49 PM
Fionn you are right that people swing the lead in many organisations but in my company (several thousand people) if you were at the shite I hear about in the silly service you'd be out the door. Difference we have is no unions defending the indefensible.
There are some large businesses that tend to be good at spotting dossers reasonably fast and dealing with them - they tend to have a lot of delegation amongst its management levels, and micromanagement is usually unheard of. Others though, not so much. Similarly a few Civil Service & local government departments are quite adept at weeding out workers not bucking up or else, but there is unfortunately a culture elsewhere where it is let pass - resistance to moving towards online services being a notable one. Overall, there's good an bad in private, public & "third" sectors in my experience.