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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Snapchap on January 09, 2020, 06:52:51 PM

Title: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 09, 2020, 06:52:51 PM
Sounds like it will be imminent. Which I find surprising as I'd have thought Leo would want to afford himself as long a period as possible between the Black and Tans/RIC controversy and having to face the electorate.

Some burning questions though. Will this controversy affect their chances? Will their record on health and homelessness come back to bite them? Will the equally objectionable partitionist Micheal Martin be the first FF leader to never become Taoiseach? Will SF's slide continue or is their recent decent showing in the by-elections a sign of an up turn in fortunes?

Thoughts?

(Poll above - lets see how smart we are with our predictions)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2020, 07:23:15 PM
Greens probably get 10 seats.
FF will find it difficult to complain about the Government's record as they backed/facilitated them all the way
FF 55
FG 40
Shinners 16
Labiur 11
Greens 10
Loonielefties7
Independents of all sorts, Healy Raes, Denisheen Naughten etcetc 29
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2020, 07:30:34 AM
Greens probably get 10 seats.
FF will find it difficult to complain about the Government's record as they backed/facilitated them all the way
FF 55
FG 40
Shinners 16
Labiur 11
Greens 10
Loonielefties7
Independents of all sorts, Healy Raes, Denisheen Naughten etcetc 29
FF hard to know. It’s only a decade since the bailout
Independents and Labour could do well
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 09:22:55 AM
I threw FF in big for the craic but them and FG will likely get around 90 between them.
How those 90 split will decide who leads the next Government which could be a right hotch potch again.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:24:44 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: shark on January 10, 2020, 09:56:55 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 10:49:15 AM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.


Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 10, 2020, 10:56:17 AM
The electorate has been very volatile since the crash.
They dumped FF.  They may give FG a kick up the arse- it's all very uncertain.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 12:24:30 PM
The choices aren't exactly great..
Flanagan, Madigan, Regina etc
Willie O'Dea, Barry Cowan.....
Howlin
Maryloo
Sourpussed loonylefties
Donnelly who's been through a few Parties and is always right about everything
Healy Raes, Mattie McGrath, Grealish...
Greens.
FF will probably come up with a super duper housing plan to try and grab the younger voters (and look after builders of course).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 10, 2020, 01:48:03 PM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.


Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland’s Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland’s current strategy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 02:57:58 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2020, 03:13:16 PM
If the election was held at the present time, I can’t see anything other than a hung Dáil, much the same as we have now.
The election is Fianna Fail’s to win but there is no sign that they will attract enough votes to become the largest party in the new Dail, never mind winning an overall majority.Martin just doesn’t have the mass appeal needed to demolish Varadker in a head-to-head and in this media-centred age, their TV confrontations will have more influence on proceedings than any amount of spoof about policy differences.  Manifestoes  won’t matter a whole lot as both major parties break their election assurances once they get into power.
Martin is a hangover from the days of Bertie and Brian Cowan and, until he and Willie O’Dea and anybody else who held ministerial office back then has stepped down, Fianna Fail won’t have the mass appeal needed to return to government. The electorate seems to have long memories in this regard.
At least, that’s what I find when talking to those around me and that’s my personal feeling also.
Sinn Fein didn’t do well at the European election; I think it’s fair to say Mary Lou isn’t performing well since she replaced Gerry Adams. She has gone backwards in the popularity stakes. A loss of only 3 or 4 would be a good result for the Shinners.
The Greens stand to pick up at the very least five seats- with the complexity of our PR system, it’s difficult to predict the outcome in most constituencies with any confidence. The last seat , or maybe two, in a large number of them will be decided by a handful of votes. But the Greta Thunberg factor and the greater awareness of environmental issues could see the Greens coming back with double figures.
Labour will be lucky to hold what they have. Brendan Howlin hasn’t been a success as a party leader and all of their main spokespersons are largely anonymous. We are going to wind up with a proliferation of mini parties and loony lefties, much the same as at present.
I’ll go with:
FF 58
FG 48
Shinners 16
Labour 12
Greens 15
The Rest 19
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 10, 2020, 04:36:51 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?
SFA
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 04:47:41 PM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.


Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland’s Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland’s current strategy.


And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 10, 2020, 05:14:33 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 10, 2020, 05:19:20 PM
What percentage in the BMW I wonder?

We’d be crippled in the West without those investments. AbbVie, Allergan, Abbott and Coke are all investing massive money in the north west. Boston Scientific in Galway are expanding, Amgen in Limerick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 05:55:26 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.


Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 10, 2020, 06:01:17 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.


Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.

If you really think taxes are low (one word: USC) and regulation is light (go into your local cornershop and count the compulsory signs) in this country, I think we're going to be wasting our time if we start talking about the climate "emergency".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 07:05:09 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.

The only alternative to dependence on the multinationals is to rely on SMEs, which are currently being smothered by high tax rates and unsustainable regulation. If the government response is to sacrifice rural businesses including agriculture and food production on the altar of a bogus 'climate emergency', we'll be more reliant on the multinationals than ever before. But maybe that's their plan.


Amazing. You couldn't be more wrong if you tried.

You don't seem to realise SME's are subject to the same (extremely low) tax rates and regulation (same as all EU States) as multinationals in this country. The same laws. Absolutely incredible to suggest otherwise.

The climate emergency is a scientific fact. It's not an opinion or a theory - it is a fact. It is happening and will have to addressed or the children of today will likely be the last to see old age on this planet. You denying these facts won't change this. People like you only make it harder to tackle this existential problem. I don't want it to be true but it is.

The decline of rural Ireland started a long time ago. It has nothing to do with climate change or an approach to tackling climate change. Rural Ireland has a huge amount to gain if tackling climate change is done is properly but there is no plan. Changes have to be made in virtually all areas but that doesn't mean "sacrifice....on the altar..." as you hysterically put it.

If you really think taxes are low (one word: USC) and regulation is light (go into your local cornershop and count the compulsory signs) in this country, I think we're going to be wasting our time if we start talking about the climate "emergency".


There's no point....
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 10, 2020, 08:39:29 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 10, 2020, 08:56:14 PM
You can't rip up the health service and start again because that would need every hospital and facility to close for a week or 2.
The only people I've heard complaining about the Sláintecare plan were Consultants because they'd lose their perk of a Private practice in public hospitals.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: larryin89 on January 10, 2020, 09:38:08 PM
“Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.”

Doubt that’s true but anyway let’s try another angle .

Where does one live in Dublin as a lower paid worker ?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 10, 2020, 09:48:35 PM
I said "working people", not the working class.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on January 10, 2020, 10:39:43 PM
its a load of nonsense nothing will change
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 10, 2020, 11:38:47 PM
Speaking of his experiences as Minister for Health, Brendan Howlin once said it was clear that departmental policy was to make, and keep, the public health operating at such an inefficient and unacceptable level of inefficiency that the greatest number of those who could afford the cost would opt to take private insurance policies. Ministers are transient, whereas senior bureaucrats are permanent so ministers have minimal influence on policies.
(I can't recall his exact words but that's the gist of what he had to say on the matter.)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 11, 2020, 12:49:15 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they’d romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on January 11, 2020, 01:45:31 AM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?
What a load of absolute tripe. Ireland has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, corporate tax rates around, and if the government had a set of balls that would be their first port of call, massively increasing the corporate tax rate for large multinationals to tackle the the housing and health crisis. But no, you as a clear West Brit, for some random reason unrelated to this matter wanting Scotland to remain attached to the UK, says it all. The fact of the matter is that these entrepreneurs are not taxed enough, and taxing them properly, never mind anything unrelated with Scotland, would go a long way to solving simple deficit issues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2020, 10:58:05 AM
Speaking of his experiences as Minister for Health, Brendan Howlin once said it was clear that departmental policy was to make, and keep, the public health operating at such an inefficient and unacceptable level of inefficiency that the greatest number of those who could afford the cost would opt to take private insurance policies. Ministers are transient, whereas senior bureaucrats are permanent so ministers have minimal influence on policies.
(I can't recall his exact words but that's the gist of what he had to say on the matter.)
It appears that way alright.
Mind you in practice if the Service did improve a lot of people would drop health insurance meaning the Service would have to expand again to cope!!
Why do we need a HSE, can the Dept of Health not run the Service for a population of 5m??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:16:55 AM
I said "working people", not the working class.
But still didn't answer the question.

How are working people (in a country with pretty much full employment) being screwed over by FG and how would Lab/SD/Greens/you do better?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 11:17:16 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they’d romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
You could say the same about corporate welfare.
The economic model is very open and very volatile when the global economy gets into trouble. The economy contracted over 12% from 2008 to 2010.
Social welfare can’t get that sort of effect.

5% of people own 40% of everything. There is enough money there to fund the health system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 11:21:32 AM
I said "working people", not the working class.
But still didn't answer the question.

How are working people (in a country with pretty much full employment) being screwed over by FG and how would Lab/SD/Greens/you do better?

Full employment doesn’t mean what it used to
with 10k homeless. Full employment doesn’t mean payrises or affordable housing.  FG are business as usual and a lot of things are broken

Income taxes are higher than elsewhere because of the last crash. Decisions made a decade ago.
.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:23:12 AM
If any of the parties were willing to tackle the welfare state they’d romp home in an election

A social welfare card would be start, a limit to what one person can take home

Put a stop the absolute sense of entitlement that people who have added nothing to the state have
They wouldn't romp home in the slightest. Our media are very liberal/left wing. Anyone who publicly suggests there are people gaming the welfare system are hung out to dry in the media.

We have to look after the lads sitting at home scratching themselves when they get a moment to spare between playing X-Box and watching Netflix.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 11, 2020, 11:31:26 AM

What a load of absolute tripe. Ireland has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, corporate tax rates around, and if the government had a set of balls that would be their first port of call, massively increasing the corporate tax rate for large multinationals to tackle the the housing and health crisis. But no, you as a clear West Brit, for some random reason unrelated to this matter wanting Scotland to remain attached to the UK, says it all. The fact of the matter is that these entrepreneurs are not taxed enough, and taxing them properly, never mind anything unrelated with Scotland, would go a long way to solving simple deficit issues.

Good man.
Increasing the CT rate from 12.5% would be the policy of a complete moron. Even Sinn Fein copped on to that 5 or 6 years ago.

If Scotland got independence they would immediately reduce their corporation tax rate to similar to Ireland's and they'd rejoin the EU, because they know that would help attract foreign investment. They would instantly become a significant obstacle to us continuing to be so successful in attracting new MNCs to Ireland.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 11, 2020, 02:00:06 PM
The tax model ended up generating 2 economies - Multinational and local- because the benefits aren’t spread around and there is a limit to what tax redistribution can do to compensate. BMW gdp per head is about half of Leinster/Munster. Within those 2 the split between MNC/local is probably close to 2/1.

Running asset bubbles in the absence of a lender of last resort is insane.

There will probably be a lot of reform after the next crash.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fionntamhnach on January 11, 2020, 02:44:14 PM
What a load of absolute tripe. Ireland has one of the lowest, if not the lowest, corporate tax rates around, <snip>

Ireland, Republic of: 12.5% on trading income, otherwise 25%

Bulgaria: 10%
Canary Islands: 4%, as opposed to 25% in the rest of Spain
Croatia: 18%, with a special 12% rate for small businesses
Cyprus: 12.5%
Hungary: 9%
Lithuania: 15%, with a special 5% rate for small businesses
Poland: 19%, with a special 9% rate for small businesses
UK: 17%, from 2020

Outside of the EU but still within Europe...

Bosnia & Herzegovina: 10%
Isle of Man: 0%
Liechtenstein: 12.5%
North Macedonia: 10%
Montenegro: 9%
Switzerland: 16.55%

All of the above is massively simplified, and may not take into account special breaks etc. and needs to be made in context with other governmental taxation e.g. VAT, property, dividends, income and so on. But in general, Ireland would have one of the lower rates of corporation tax in Western Europe (west of the old Iron Curtain) with it only being notably lower in "havens" like the Isle of Man & Andorra, the majority of countries are in the 20's.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fionntamhnach on January 11, 2020, 03:31:13 PM
Our media are very liberal/left wing.

The "mainstream" media in Ireland rather appears to look left wing or Liberal in comparison to the same platforms in the UK or USA, which would be the most accessible for Irish people to engage in for consuming foreign media thanks to culture & language. But compared to most of the rest of the EU it is very MOR, somewhat the same as Canada and New Zealand too. The most notable difference between the main Irish and British media outlets is that the Irish media doesn't delve into major hysteria anywhere near as often as their British counterparts. Even the Irish versions of the British tabloids aren't near the same level of awful as their counterparts across the Irish Sea.

(It would also be needed to define what "Liberal" and "left-wing" mean in context - historically Ireland has never really had a liberal political tradition in that of the European mould outside of the Whigs of the 19th century that was linked to the rest of the UK at the time, and this nearly all labelling of "liberal" or "liberalism" in Ireland is derived from its bastardisation in the USA that has crept over the Atlantic in the last few decades.)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 11, 2020, 04:01:56 PM
Yanks describe anything not extremely right wing as "left wing" and "liberal", the latter seems to be their ultimate insult.
Always sad when you see Irish people buying into that sirt if sh1te .
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 11, 2020, 04:29:17 PM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.


Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland’s Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland’s current strategy.

21,844 jobs created in FDI companies.  that's the gross figure, (in Ruud Gullit parlance) the net gain figure after job losses are deducted  is  13,867
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 11, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
Clearly the Greens should do well, based on their Euro elections showing. Can see FF gaining a few seats and FG losing a few. Not sure how we'd see a big improvement for Labour. Social Democrats will be hampered by their small organisation - if they could get enough candidates and structures I think they could eat Labour up. To me SF are going to struggle to rise above their current seat level. Even though I wouldn't blame them for it, the NI Assembly stand off hasn't done them any favours. PbP, solidarity etc will do well in their working class strongholds but to because really serious players they need to develop their message to attract left leaning middle class voters.

I'm hoping for a government with a strong left and Green agenda. We cannot continue the mistakes of the past - it's time for us to get real about the challenges our society at home and around the world face.

Can’t see an improvement for Labour either. They will be down one seat immediately with Willy Penrose retiring, and no hope of Alan Mangan (of Westmeath 2004 Leinster winning team) holding that seat.


Labour need new, young leadership that can put them back to being what a proper Labour Party is. Pushing a social democratic agenda. Looking out for everyone, not just big business.

Those nasty big businesses, creating all those jobs.

Latest from IDA this week:

Wednesday, January 8th 2020 – Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Heather Humphreys and IDA Ireland, the Irish Government agency responsible for attracting foreign direct investment (FDI) to Ireland, today announced that employment levels in its client companies have now reached 245,096 -  the highest ever number employed in the multinational sector, exceeding targets set by Government contained in IDA Ireland’s Strategy – Winning: Foreign Direct Investment 2015-2019. The results announced today show another strong performance in 2019, which saw 250 investments made with 21,844 jobs created in FDI companies in the final year of IDA Ireland’s current strategy.

21,844 jobs created in FDI companies.  that's the gross figure, (in Ruud Gullit parlance) the net gain figure after job losses are deducted  is  13,867
And probably 90% around Dublin
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 12, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can’t force companies to locate in particular counties. There’s no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

“54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren’t being provided by the private sector.”

Some great work being done and some great successes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 01:22:33 PM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can’t force companies to locate in particular counties. There’s no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

“54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren’t being provided by the private sector.”

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 12, 2020, 06:14:14 PM
You haven’t got the first clue what that question even means!

The response is in my previous post. If you’ve any more questions, try putting them in your own words.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 12, 2020, 06:30:26 PM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can’t force companies to locate in particular counties. There’s no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

“54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren’t being provided by the private sector.”

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?

GDP in the Irish context is grossly inflated, the real difference is less.
What do you suggest, lowering the GDP in the East and South, or increasing it in the BMW? How would you do this?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 12, 2020, 06:38:14 PM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can’t force companies to locate in particular counties. There’s no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

“54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren’t being provided by the private sector.”

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
I don't think he is necessarily saying that it's a success- or a failure either for that matter! The IDA says it set out to achieve a 30% uplift in investments in a number of regions over a five year period and investments in the Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.
That has to be considered a success by any rationale but since since investment in the region was very low to begin with, the improvement is relative- the region still lags behind all others.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 12, 2020, 06:56:45 PM
No not 90% in Dublin, 60% actually. Still higher than ideal, but the main thing is there is jobs growth outside Dublin and unfortunately you can’t force companies to locate in particular counties. There’s no question that IDA does their best to showcase regional locations and offers incentives for the regions.

Here is what IDA have just released re regional investment by MNCs:

“54,868 jobs were created outside of Dublin over the past five years leading to 33,118 additional direct jobs (net) on the ground in regions at the end of this strategy. 110 investments were won for regions in 2019 with 5,368 net jobs created.

Every region hit the five-year strategy targets of a 30% uplift in investment we set out to achieve and three regions - the Mid West, Mid East and South East exceeded 40% of targets. Investments in The Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.

This is clear evidence that our deliberate and focused strategy of targeting investment for regions is paying off. That includes our Regional Property Programme which has delivered seven of 11 planned advance building solutions – technological or office buildings – to offer investors attractive turnkey building solutions in regional locations.

All seven of the buildings completed are now occupied by businesses, demonstrating the success of this strategy of stepping into the market where we see opportunity and can secure clients when the necessary properties aren’t being provided by the private sector.”

Some great work being done and some great successes.

Hound, GDP per head in the BMW region is half of that elsewhere.
How can that be considered a success ?
I don't think he is necessarily saying that it's a success- or a failure either for that matter! The IDA says it set out to achieve a 30% uplift in investments in a number of regions over a five year period and investments in the Border region increased threefold since the outset of the strategy.
That has to be considered a success by any rationale but since since investment in the region was very low to begin with, the improvement is relative- the region still lags behind all others.
The IDA is a Government Agency.
Regional inequality is driving people to Dublin and exacerbating the problems there.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 12, 2020, 07:01:01 PM
How do we reverse or equalise things between the BMW and the East/South/Southeast?
Google, Apple or Intel arent going to set up or move to Elphin or Ballyjamesduff.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mayo4Sam on January 13, 2020, 08:38:37 AM
How do we reverse or equalise things between the BMW and the East/South/Southeast?
Google, Apple or Intel arent going to set up or move to Elphin or Ballyjamesduff.

Well one of them would have been in Ballinasloe but for planning

I know it was only a data centre but it helps


We do have a lot of pharma and manufacturing in the west. Much better companies to have as they give a good mixture of high and low skilled labour and they provide secondary employment, lots of local companies that provide niche products to these.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 13, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
And when the EU come for our Corporation Tax rate/regime, which they will, then what? Those companies are not here out of the goodness of their hearts. They don't pay a fair share of tax and in a country where we can't run a health service, can't house people, can't provide clean water or fix busted pipes, can't provide a proper transport system I'd say it's high time we started looking at another, more sustainable way of developing our country. How many of those jobs will be there in 10-20-30 years time? How are we going to cope with income/wealth distribution when there are very few jobs that aren't done by machines? What is our approach to the climate emergency apart from taxing carbon and trying to not upset farmers?

Foreign Direct Investment has played an important role in Ireland's development but the time to plan for alternatives is long overdue. We've no plan. We lurch from crisis to crisis - some day we'll hit one we can't overcome by screwing working people.
I understand your sentiments completely, albeit I think some of it is a bit misguided, and I'd love to hear what your alternative to MNCs is!

Apple are here 40 years. There are scores of tech and pharma companies who are here now 20 years. I don't know exactly how many are here over 10 years, but it's well over 100, providing tens of thousands of long term well paid jobs.

Barring the Apple case which is debatable (they have a different structure to all the other tech cos, which I can explain if anyone is bored enough to want to know), every company pays their fair share of Irish tax on Irish profits. 12.5%.
The 2.5% you hear about sometimes from negligent media is absolute nonsense.

Whatever you want to say about FF, their tax policies to attract MNCs was brilliant and really successful. Whatever you want to say about FG, their tax policies have been better again. Our offering to companies looking to move away from havens has been spectacularly successful. And its driven by substance. Ireland does not work from a tax perspective, unless the MNCs bring substance and people. Jobs.

The tax take from corporation tax last year was phenomenal. A one-off many are saying. But this year will blow that out of the water as will the following year. 2021 will be the high point, as EU /OECD rules will push some of the tax elsewhere, but we'll still end up with a good share. There'll be no EU country with a better tax system, albeit we do need to monitor Eastern Europe (and hope that Scotland doesn't gain independence!).

It will be key that we don't blow the 2020/2021 windfalls. Whatever chance we have of FF or FG not spending everything, would you really trust Labour/SD/Greens not to spend it all?

I do think we tax our entrepreneurs too highly. These people also provide hugely valuable employment. While their companies are also taxed at 12.5%, when they take out money themselves, they are being taxed at 53%-55% on their marginal income. It's not a great encouragement for people to work harder when more than half of anything extra they earn goes in tax.

Why do you say working class are being screwed over? Lower paid workers in Ireland pay the lowest tax in the EU.

Health service is 100% a mess. My own mother had a horrific experience this year where she was sent home because a young doctor in Beaumont's primary objective seemed to be not to give her a bed, and it was a miracle it didn't cause her catastrophic injury. Back into A&E where she suffered utter humiliation for 48 hours, before being operated on by a master/genius to give her some chance of a normal life going forward.

Health service isn't a mess because FF and FG haven't thrown buckets of money at it. Some ministers have gone at it with the absolute best intentions but realised they were pishing into the wind. It's a not mess due to our doctors and nurses, who are generally very good. What it needs is a complete rip it up and start again approach. But that would mean lots of admin staff in the health service losing their job or being routed elsewhere. This can't and won't be let happen. Because of union power.
Would that improve under Lab/SD/Greens?


Apologies for the delay in replying, was busy with a few things over the weekend. I got halfway through one reply and had to go and lost the post.

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Working people are screwed over because they DO pay their fair share of taxes and can't avoid it. They pay relatively high rates of tax on income which is deducted at source. If you have kids you know that "free" education is not a reality. Heath system a mess means most feel they have to have Medical Insurance to ensure they get treated on time. Illegal VRT on cars, high VAT rates - I could go on. Those on higher rates of income pay the same marginal rate of tax which is crazy. Tax rates are graduated for a reason and then it stops. Unlike many who are conditioned to think otherwise, the numbers of people of State benefits doesn't bother me. The money spent on this pales into insignificance when you compare it to tax evasion/avoidance. That's where our primary focus should be. It's not surprise to me that in an era where tax rates are under scrutiny we amazingly have higher tax revenues despite not the best economic conditions.

On to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 11:28:58 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dublin7 on January 14, 2020, 11:45:40 AM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 14, 2020, 12:03:49 PM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??
He might as well, get to see a few mauls before he himself is mauled the next day.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 14, 2020, 12:13:17 PM
So, what are the predictions seats-wise?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 12:14:08 PM
My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

The alternative may not be one thing, but a number of different things. Work is needed to develop multiple measures, each of which can make a contribution.

Quote
12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.


There is no particular logic for corporation tax at all, tax should come when human beings receive the money. However, given that corporation tax exists,  then the Irish model of a lowish rate with few exemptions is a reasonable one. It may be the case that big companies are more lightly taxed than the local business, and this cannot be justified.

Quote
Working people are screwed over because they DO pay their fair share of taxes and can't avoid it. They pay relatively high rates of tax on income which is deducted at source. If you have kids you know that "free" education is not a reality. Heath system a mess means most feel they have to have Medical Insurance to ensure they get treated on time. Illegal VRT on cars, high VAT rates - I could go on. Those on higher rates of income pay the same marginal rate of tax which is crazy. Tax rates are graduated for a reason and then it stops. Unlike many who are conditioned to think otherwise, the numbers of people of State benefits doesn't bother me. The money spent on this pales into insignificance when you compare it to tax evasion/avoidance. That's where our primary focus should be. It's not surprise to me that in an era where tax rates are under scrutiny we amazingly have higher tax revenues despite not the best economic conditions.

Many people do not pay tax or receive more than they pay. This is appropriate in a social democratic society, but it also leads to a lot of votes from people not really interested in reforming the system.

Quote
On to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).

Unions are blamed, but the real problem is a  lack of clarity of thought at management level. In general, there are efficient parts of the public service and less  efficient parts and they have much the same union agreements. But there is never any discussion of efficiency and no real reward for improving it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Shamrock Shore on January 14, 2020, 12:27:58 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 12:38:52 PM
And a FF/ SF/ Green Government Sham?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 14, 2020, 01:30:16 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19
FF 57
FG 48
SF 18
GRN 9
LAB 7
PBP/LEFT 3
SD's 2
Others 16
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 14, 2020, 01:53:33 PM
I don't know a lot(embarrassed to say) about ROI politics, what is the most likely make up of the government?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 14, 2020, 02:37:15 PM

All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon.

On to the Health Service. What you've conveniently avoided in all of this is the two tier system and the private aspect of the health system. These have been encouraged and facilitated at every turn by FF, FG, the PD's and (shamefully) Labour over decades. Money has been thrown at the issue but with no strategy which is reckless and irresponsible. The administrative inefficiencies in the Health system are mind boggling. These problems are known for a long time and nothing has been done to address them. Maybe it's difficult with existing contracts and resources but every day we put off the transition makes it harder. Unions aren't as powerful as they once were but they must be part of the solution. I believe if a serious, honest effort at reform was on the table Unions and their members wouldn't be found wanting. The people who work in the HSE are by and large good people, highly qualified and dedicated and they want things to be better. Our governments have done nothing to help them bar right and check and tell them sort it our yourselves (but don't change X, Y or Z). Blaming the Unions is just a total red herring. What solutions have they blocked? I don't know if Lab/Soc Dems/Greens will improve it but I believe to people in SD/Greens are genuine in their aspirations to make people's lives better (Labour need to prove it but I hope they've learned their lessons).
I’m far from an expert on the health service and can only go on my experiences.
The story I told above was about a person who has had private health insurance for the last 40 years. No help whatsoever when you’re lying incapacitated on a trolley in Beaumont A&E! 

But I was involved in the financial side of a private hospital for a while. Extremely well run and profitable. Could pay front line staff well, could fire under-performers, didn’t have reams of middle management clogging up resources and adding no value. Unions willing to engage in a process that would see dead wood removed? I'm not so sure.

Tax hamonisation
- Rate harmonisation is not happening. Ever.

- There was a proposal doing the rounds for the last few years called CCCTB. Basically a tool where taxable profits would have nothing to do with the accounts of a company and they’d come up with a formula based on where customers of companies live. You could have a situation where the Irish company has 70% of the group’s European profits and another 30 countries have 1% each. CCCTB would disregard and give Ireland say 5% and divvy up the 95% among everyone else. Ireland would still tax at 12.5% but on a much small base. Turns out Germany would be a net loser if CCTB would be implemented, so it’ll never be implemented with them not supporting it.

- Digital Services Tax (DST) is where it’s really at in terms of seeking more tax on big MNCs. A straight 2 or 3% tax on revenues earned from customers in specific countries. It was supposed to be brought in on a worldwide or even European basis but some countries have jumped the gun. France, Italy, UK, Austria and Turkey have already brought it in or are about to bring it in. This will hit the MNCs hard, but whether it will impact Ireland’s tax take is hard to say. As I said before we'll have gangbusters CT take in 2020 and 2021, then it will decrease a bit. But I still think it'll be very strong and won't go below 2018 levels, perhaps even 2019 levels might be sustainable. I don’t think DST will have a significant impact on Ireland’s competitiveness, but it does bring uncertainty and we’ll need to see how it plays out.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 03:08:48 PM
- There was a proposal doing the rounds for the last few years called CCCTB. Basically a tool where taxable profits would have nothing to do with the accounts of a company and they’d come up with a formula based on where customers of companies live. You could have a situation where the Irish company has 70% of the group’s European profits and another 30 countries have 1% each. CCCTB would disregard and give Ireland say 5% and divvy up the 95% among everyone else. Ireland would still tax at 12.5% but on a much small base. Turns out Germany would be a net loser if CCTB would be implemented, so it’ll never be implemented with them not supporting it.

The point is that countries are quick to talk about Google, but this concept does not only apply to Google. If Irish people buy a Mercedes car or Chanel perfume, and they have bought more of these luxury goods as the country has become richer, then the profit from those products lies in France or Germany and they don't think that is a problem.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on January 14, 2020, 03:10:23 PM
Seems the Election will be on SATURDAY!!! 8th February.
Leo's hand forced as it was rumoured Maria of the swings Bailey wouldn't vote if there was a No Confidence motion on Harris.
Will be great fun as the new Register dirsnt come into force till 14th Feb.

He new FG wouldn't win the no confidence vote so called the election to avoid the embarrassment of defeat.

Why would he call it for a Saturday? Friday was an ideal day as you had the weekend for the bloodsports of watching all the election results coming in.

Election is on the same day as Ireland v Wales in 6 nations in Dublin, but I doubt Leo was aware of that. I wonder will our wonderful sports minister go to the Aviva for the game??

To avoid the scenario where parents have to take a day off work or scramble to arrange alternative childcare because the schools are closed for polling day.
Thinking of the working people, the people who get up early ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 14, 2020, 03:15:22 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. “Huge Irish tax breaks” are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound’s brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it’s a disgrace!

That’s exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it’s a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here’s IDA’s latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 03:34:47 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 14, 2020, 03:54:51 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. “Huge Irish tax breaks” are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound’s brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it’s a disgrace!

That’s exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it’s a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here’s IDA’s latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs


I would wager that half of those wouldve happened without any IDA intervention. The company work for hired 100 people last year, nothing to do with the IDA, all to do with increased sales.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on January 14, 2020, 03:56:22 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile

Really, the safest bet would be a FG/FF coalition if both could hold their noses and do it. Any other combination is leaving us at the mercy of a cabal of lefties/republicans/greens and other head-the-balls, none of whom would provide us with the political stability we need for the turbulent few years ahead. FG still the safest bet anyway, no matter what you might think.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:15:26 PM

My alternative to MNC's - I don't really know at the moment. All I'm saying is we'd need to get one quickly because the EU will impose Tax harmonisation and probably soon. I think there are areas we could and should be exploring so we can develop indigenous industries that can be sustainable into the future. I think there's scope in renewable energies like wind, wave and biomass for example but I'm no expert. My point is basically - we need to wean ourselves off the junkie like dependence on MNC's attracted by immorally low CT regimes.

12.5% of profits is absolutely not a fair rate of tax - let's be honest about it. Especially when you factor in the huge tax breaks inherent in our system and look at effective tax rates. We have this regime to attract these companies. As I've said before it's unsustainable and from a moral standpoint in my view it's not defensible in a country with so many homeless, a creaking two tier health system and an ever widening wealth gap. "Entrepreneurs" come in many shapes and sizes and their marginal tax rate on profits they draw from their companies is essentially the same as a PAYE worker once PRSI & USC (remember when FG were going to abolish this.....long time ago) is factored in. Every extra € I make in my job the government take more than half of it off me also. These "entrepreneurs" as you call them employ people so they can make more money. That's the bottom line. They are not Robin Hood.

Sorry for splitting in two.

Agree completely re encouraging indigenous business and sustainable renewable energy. But that can be done alongside continuing to attract MNCs. Enterprise Ireland has some great supports for Irish businesses.

MNCs pay 12.5% tax on their Irish profits. “Huge Irish tax breaks” are a complete myth.

Imagine a newspaper report saying Hound earns 100k and pays 50k tax in Ireland. Hound’s brother lives in the Cayman Islands earns 900k and pays no tax. So the Hound brothers have an effective tax rate of 5% and it’s a disgrace!

That’s exactly what the media do with the Googles and Facebooks. They combine their Irish resident company which pays 12.5% tax and their Bermudan or Cayman resident companies that pay no tax, and say overall it’s a 2% effective tax rate. Yes, they use havens to the biggest extent possible, and absolutely fair enough to have a go at that, but to call it an Irish tax break is just the height of nonsense.

These companies employ thousands, pay millions in tax and do lots of business with small Irish businesses. They are fantastic for Ireland. IDA has said in their recent press release that one third of MNCs in Ireland have been here for over 20 years.

Here’s IDA’s latest release on new Ireland wins:

Adesto Technologies Corporation, semiconductors/IOT, have announced plans to partner with the European Space Agency which will see the creation of senior engineering roles in its Cork and Dublin offices.

ARTeSYN, biopharma, plans to expand its operations in Waterford by adding 50 new roles in Production, Engineering, Customer Service and Research & Development

EJ, access solutions, new production facility in Birr, Co. Offaly

Elavon, card payment solutions, has invested in its office, making Arklow, Co. Wicklow a mini Fintech hub in Ireland

Eurofins, life sciences, new Software Engineering Centre in Leopardstown, creation of 150 high-tech jobs

Fort Wayne Metals, medical devices manufacturer, new €10m manufacturing facility in Castlebar leading to the creation of 80 new jobs, doubling their current workforce

FundRock, investment fund manager, new office in Limerick employing 30 people with plans to expand this in the future

Huawei, ICT, new Dublin office which will create 100 jobs

Janssen Sciences, part of J&J, expansion of its manufacturing building in Co. Cork which will create 200 new jobs

Liberty Insurance, plans to create over 120 new roles, expanding its operations in Co. Cavan

Otterbox Products, a smartphone cases, Cork new office, up to 100 employees

Overstock, an online retail shopping site, new European base in the IDA business park in Sligo, plans to recruit 20 employees this year

Panasonic Avionics, in-flight entertainment, new repair shop in Dundalk

Patreon, payment platform, new European Headquarters in Dublin, will create 30 new jobs

PublicRelay, analytics firm, to open an office in Cavan which is expected to create 20 new jobs

Travelport, technology company in travel industry, 22 new jobs in their Dublin operations

WuXi Vaccines, biologics technology, plans to build a $240m vaccine production facility in Dundalk which will see the creation of 200 new jobs


The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

 “The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse. 
 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 04:19:21 PM
Prediction

Ok.

FG 55
FF 48
Lab 5
SF 20
Green 7
Looney Left 4
Inds 19

FG 45
FF 43
Lab 12
SF 15
Green 17
Lefties 4
Indies  rest

The country is trína chéile

Really, the safest bet would be a FG/FF coalition if both could hold their noses and do it. Any other combination is leaving us at the mercy of a cabal of lefties/republicans/greens and other head-the-balls, none of whom would provide us with the political stability we need for the turbulent few years ahead. FG still the safest bet anyway, no matter what you might think.

Safety is relative, Mo.
They are all groupthinkers. 
They have no idea what is coming down the tracks.

Even the idea that it is safe to have an election because Brexit is sorted out is debatable
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

 “The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse.

I don't follow the logic.

>> If you aren't exporting then you are f**ked long term. Would you have the ROI become an economic basket case like NI?
>> Having a diverse multinational industry base is more resilient than packing your eggs into relatively few local baskets. Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"* - unless you mean 'cos its shite in the "good times" its just a bit more shite in the bad times?
>> The economy here contracted so much due the finance industry. That was a problem made of our own greed and cute hoors being too cute for their own good.

*and explain what that even means.


I agree entirely that a multinational selling something to someone in Ireland should pay no less tax than a local shop/factory for selling that same thing. Beyond that, I've no issue with the multinationals as long as they aren't in the business of exploitation elsewhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 05:14:56 PM
The sun doesn't shine out of their arses, Hound. They bring benefits but at the expense of the rest of the economy.
The Irish economy is fine when things are calm and then falls into crisis. An economy more focused on local needs might be more resilient. 

 “The high relative openness of the Irish economy does, however, leave it more exposed to changes and shocks in global demand"

Between 08 and 2011 the economy contracted by 12%
Unemployment went to 15% in 2011
Net emigration restarted.

Next time will be even worse.

I don't follow the logic.

>> If you aren't exporting then you are f**ked long term. Would you have the ROI become an economic basket case like NI?
>> Having a diverse multinational industry base is more resilient than packing your eggs into relatively few local baskets. Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"* - unless you mean 'cos its shite in the "good times" its just a bit more shite in the bad times?
>> The economy here contracted so much due the finance industry. That was a problem made of our own greed and cute hoors being too cute for their own good.

*and explain what that even means.


I agree entirely that a multinational selling something to someone in Ireland should pay no less tax than a local shop/factory for selling that same thing. Beyond that, I've no issue with the multinationals as long as they aren't in the business of exploitation elsewhere.

The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.
Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?
Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 05:19:23 PM
Love it hate the Multis at least they kept an economy going from 2008 to 2014 during the collapse of  the FF/PD neoliberal unreal economy of lending each other money to buy houses from each other to rent to the Polush lads building the houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 14, 2020, 05:27:25 PM
The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.
Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?
Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?

Too small a country, not enough wealth in it, and too much tax on new wealth creation, especially when you consider the risk of losing everything if it goes haywire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 14, 2020, 05:33:20 PM
The whole economic model is the problem. There is too much downside risk and not enough investment in strengthening the local economy.

Your dodging my main question.

Again - 'Explain how an economy "more focused on local needs might be more resilient"*

*and explain what that even means.'


Very few Irish companies develop scale. They tend to be sold off. Why ?

Many reasons:
- no desire for the stress of expanding
- happy with their lot
- unsure of challenge of expanding
- don't have sufficient cash to expand in the means necessary and maintain security


Why do we keep on coming back to property bubbles ?

'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 14, 2020, 05:45:42 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(

It’d be an ideal location for Apple, with the Orchard there and all....!






Provided the gobshites in Wicklow stay quiet.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 14, 2020, 06:39:27 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tyrone08 on January 14, 2020, 06:58:51 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.

See a report on housing the other day which showed rental prices in Dublin were roughly 200 euro higher than in 2008. I assume its true but that is crazy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 07:36:20 PM
'cos people are stupid and banks are greedy. Once again, Dublin is prime for a collapse in the market. However this time, the prices across the country are likely to be much more resilient as they haven't bounced back to the crazy heights.

Dublin prices haven't bounced back either, being 30% below 2007. That is 30% less that they are likely to fall.
Banks maybe greedy, but the Central Bank does not allow them throw money at you nowadays.

It’s another property bubble driven by ultra low interest rates

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-rppi/residentialpropertypriceindexoctober2019/

« Dublin residential property prices are 21.3% lower than their February 2007 peak, »

Rates will go up when banks crash again.
Banks are strictly regulated but shadow banks are not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2020, 07:59:48 PM
Elphin loses out again >:(

It’d be an ideal location for Apple, with the Orchard there and all....!






Provided the gobshites in Wicklow stay quiet.

😆😆😆

Th'oul windmill would never be able to power it!
Anyway it's full speed ahead on the media with hours of nonstop waffle.
Godhelpus only 25 more days of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 12:42:34 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 01:27:22 AM
A xenophobic Gobsh1te.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 05:29:36 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/kathy-sheridan-election-will-expose-fault-lines-in-irish-democracy-1.4139648

« As we go into election mode, this country is more fragile than we imagined.

Good luck to all the decent ones who dream of something better. »
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 09:50:14 AM
This from a now defunct blog called comharsdc.ie written in 2010

"Support politicians who are willing to read, to understand complexity, and the tradeoffs involved, and to communicate choices and decisions effectively.
There is a tendency in all democracies to disparage the ‘political class’ and to deride all politicians as being simultaneously venal, incompetent and dishonest."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 09:57:17 AM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.


You need to grow up and take a look at yourself if you think this is an issue or even real. Seriously.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 15, 2020, 10:35:50 AM
EOH spot on here, for a change.


https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/news-analysis/eilis-ohanlon-spare-me-the-sanctimony-of-the-south-ric-commemoration-controversy-shows-theyre-as-tribal-as-northern-ireland-38862544.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 10:46:19 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 11:29:13 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.


People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 15, 2020, 11:53:03 AM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.


People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

Not sure why that is a negative Seanie. He forced Boris into a border in the Irish Sea, and the closest the island has come to economic integration in our lifetime. Boris got elected, cast DUP adrift, and quickly copperfastened the deal.. That to me was one of the best performances by a Taoiseach on the international stage. It should not be forgotten that the health and housing crisis have their origins in the last FF government, or have we forgotten. FG have made a very poor fist at fixing but not easy fix Martin’s creation no matter what money you throw at.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Climate change always happens. The current panic will attract votes for the Greens from gullible youngsters who haven't seen it all before, along with disaffected leftwingers attracted by their watermelon politics.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 12:17:21 PM

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.


I expect both Eoghan Murphy and Regina Doherty to lose.

Murphy's constituency (the old Dublin South East) has form in kicking out underperforming Ministers.

Helen McEntee is losing a big part of her catchment area to Cavan-Monaghan and should in theory be in bother but the McEntee brand is strong in Meath and that will I think squeeze Doherty.

I know nothing about Charlie Flanagan's chances but he did lose his seat before and Laois and Offaly have a seat less this time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 01:41:13 PM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.


People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 01:46:33 PM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:14:59 PM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.


People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.


Can you work out why they'd be against it?

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 02:15:59 PM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.


You clearly can't read.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:17:37 PM
Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

The idea that Varadkar won Johnson a landslide 80-seats majority is funny.


You clearly can't read.
I can. The idea that Johnson, with a groundswell of support behind him across the country, ever needed a 'lifeline' is funny too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:20:43 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2020, 02:29:25 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 02:35:46 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

I've been here almost as long as you sunshine.

England, and Wales. 2 countries.  8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on January 15, 2020, 03:09:54 PM
Five points there is no point debating with most of the posters here...they are all globalists of the Labour London brand. Their poster boy in the upcoming election is Amadan O Riordain, naturally the last person I want to see win a seat.

On the Green Party....they do have genuine environmental issues....alas most of the global issues stem from shoddy practices in the likes of China and Asian countries where they have the sweat shops and pollute freely to produce goods for Western consumers.
However if you scratch under the surface of the Greens you find too many anomalies.
The Greens have pushed successfully with their bed fellows, An Taisce, to  get the peat powered stations closed in the midlands.  These stations were a lifeline to rural midlands communities providing solid jobs. The 12-15% of power these stations supplied to the national grid is lost....and what is it being replaced by? power from France, and that power is nuclear produced.  So the Greens want Peat stations closed and they will take the replacement from elsewhere and like real NIMBY's as long as the nuclear is not Irish, they will accept it.

The second big flaw in the Green case is attached to population and demographics. Obviously if you have a world population booming to record levels, especially rising to unprecedented levels in third world countries, then the extra bodies need more resources to be produced to fuel them and there is then extra demands on the environment. Now much of the population growth indirectly can be blamed on the advance in science, because medical advancement now translates to child/infant mortality rates reduced significantly and hence populations figures mushrooming.  Many of these poorer countries cannot sustain the level of population growth....in a cold way, one could reason the populations need to be capped......what is the Greens answer to this taxing issue?...not a dickie  bird about the record demographics, instead we have the Greens in the EU advancing their Globalist theory, that wealthy European countries should help out these poorer African/Asian nations and take in the excess, and with birth rates within European countries of the natives very low, the big game in town with the Greens is the great replacement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 15, 2020, 03:12:38 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

That sounds like Fianna Fail in 2007. 
Climate change is already happening
Even the Murdoch family get it.

https://www.ft.com/content/e2311db0-36f6-11ea-a6d3-9a26f8c3cba4
James Murdoch has criticised his father’s news outlets for promoting false scepticism about climate change as deadly bushfires tear across Australia, the original home of Rupert Murdoch’s news empire. In a pointed joint statement aiming to highlight their deep unhappiness with the coverage, James and his wife Kathryn took aim at conservative News Corp outlets in Australia for their “ongoing denial” of global warming.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 03:18:47 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

That sounds like Fianna Fail in 2007. 

Fianna Fáil in 2007 pushed the climate scam for all that it was worth. That's why the Greens joined them in government. It didn't end well.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:39:16 PM

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

Most predictions of global environmental catastrophe never come to pass. The next actual catastrophe will probably be an Ice Age. Hopefully it won't happen until we're all long gone.

Perhaps you refer to the damage to the ozone layer that was repaired by the Montreal Protocol which phased out CFCs. Hardly an argument against concerted global action to save the environment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:42:07 PM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.

Is Foxxkkk back?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 15, 2020, 04:43:21 PM

Perhaps you refer to the damage to the ozone layer that was repaired by the Montreal Protocol which phased out CFCs. Hardly an argument against concerted global action to save the environment.

Millenarianism has been around a lot longer than the 1980s.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 04:52:46 PM
And...?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 15, 2020, 04:54:36 PM
There's no point arguing with climate crisis deniers and racists. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: J70 on January 15, 2020, 05:05:36 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn’t come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 15, 2020, 07:15:52 PM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn’t come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.

We'll see if he develops an obsession with me. That'll be a give-away.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: LooseCannon on January 15, 2020, 08:49:51 PM
to save you the drama, and you can take this to paddypower and earn from it.

ff a minimum of 50
fg a maximum of 42....will be savaged in rural seats.
independents will surprise again, 25+

sf about 18/19
labour may return with 7...lose a couple and gain elsewhere
aontu 1...peadar retains.
greens a max of 10.

big name casualties....eoghan murphy(nap...one of the two fgs in DBS will lose and kate o Connell could be more transfer friendly), Regina Doherty,  and in my own heartland, Charlie Tanagan is in trouble as FG might only take 1 of the 5 and the territorial make up of Laois/Offaly does not favour him.

on the gaa front, the new chairman of Louth, Peter Fitz could prove a surprise packet and return again as an independent and confound the pundits who are dismissing him.


and in case Seafoid is asking, the above prediction is neutral because no party in Ireland represent my politics, the governing PIS party in Poland is my currency. My vote will therefore be going to a GAA man and Offaly Indo John Leahy, a man with the balls to question the new plantation of Ireland.


Leahy, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

Ask any of the hurlers from the glory days what they think of him. It’d say a lot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 15, 2020, 09:21:28 PM
Climate change is happening so I would expect a lot of younger people to vote for the Greens.
I really wonder if enough voters are prepared to forgive FF for 2008 and the bank guarantee.


People should be voting Green as they're the only one who seem to get the climate crisis.

I suspect there are a lot of ex-FF supporters who will be emboldened to return to FF after Leo and co's shenanigans - homelessness and the health service being at all time lows when "the economy has never been better". Never mind the recent commemoration fiasco. Must also be remembered, Varadkar facilitated Johnson's re-election. He allowed him a lifeline when he was "dead in a ditch" by agreeing to a new deal. This has been lost on many people but it should be noted. Varadkar is pretty much a Tory.

I fundamentally disagree with this point. Foe example, the quickest way to reduce emissions in Nuclear but will the greens even consider that? No. So they have their own little ideology and I think that they will be the last people to make a real change. Look at the balls they made out of car tax (emissions vrs engine size vre 2008), what sort of f**k acting was that.


Can you work out why they'd be against it?

"their own little ideology" - this is scientific fact. If you don't accept science that's your prerogative but in my opinion it's not a very tenable position. I for one do not want to leave my kids in a world that is irretrievably damaged which is what will happen if we don't act now. Ignorance is no defense. The facts are out there.

I never denied the science, I stated my opinion that greens have their own little ideology which includes refusing to switch to a clean proven technology like nuclear. It's not about being green, it's about being green their way. In addition they are totally city centric and have no clue of the reality of life outside the cities.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 05:01:52 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-parties-react-to-injury-of-homeless-man-in-dublin-1.4140360


Another confident prediction. Odran Flynn, psephologist (numbers nerd to me and you) has been on Pat Kenny's show on Newstalk predicting the Greens will win a seat in every Dublin constituency with the exception of Dublin North West. That would more or less tally with my own prediction. I have them winning seats in all Dublin constituencies, bar Dublin North West and Dublin Mid West. Former Green Paul Gogarty, now an Independent, has acted as a barrier there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 16, 2020, 09:52:51 AM
This election will be very interesting in terms of what it tells us about Irish society. FG's record on issue's such as health, housing and crime has been woeful and they are probably the most right wing Irish government that I can remember. Also more PR bull and spin doctoring than I care to remember. I hope that people vote with their conscience to correct the ills in society as a whole rather than simply thinking about their own pockets.

The alternative is FF who have their own recent history of overseeing the financial crash and running the economy into the ground. They have never really recovered from that and I think Micheal Martin is a particularly poor leader and it would be a huge leap of faith to put them back into government.

It looks like Hobsons choice in terms of which is the ruling party in government.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2020, 10:38:28 AM
Exactly, the next Government will be led by either FF or FG (as had been in effect since 1922).
A higher proportion of well heeled and comfortable people vote. Those people will have Health insurance and their only interactions with the Public Health system will be if a family member needs to go to A&E.
So the health issue wont sway them.
Those who are parents of 20 somethings and live in cities/commuter belts will see the effects of the housing crisis and could be tempted to vote left of centre -if only we had a decent left of centre party.
The Greens probably see themselves as that Party but how many houses would they get built as they tilt at Climate windmills.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eire90 on January 16, 2020, 11:07:47 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 11:12:38 AM
"Fivepoints" seems to be the new Syferus with his nonsense.
What Country had Johnson a groundswell of support in?

Syferus didn’t come out with the type of mindless, right wing nonsense five points does.

More likely to be foxcommander. Similar style and all. Just needs the anti-black posts to cement it.

We'll see if he develops an obsession with me. That'll be a give-away.

I've been here longer than you and I've managed to more or less totally ignore your ramblings for almost a decade now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 11:14:53 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
FF and FG have no answers to healthcare, house prices or homelessness.
Business as usual doesn’t work at the moment.
5% of people own 40% of everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 11:20:33 AM
People will vote for ff fg again and the shinners are a bunch of rats too.
FF and FG have no answers to healthcare, house prices or homelessness.
Business as usual doesn’t work at the moment.
5% of people own 40% of everything.

The political class including Labour, SF and the Greens and independents broadly agree with FF and FG on healthcare and the housing/homelessness disaster. That's why none will propose mass admin redundancies in the HSE for example or a huge private building programme to restore the housing stock relative to population that we had a decade ago.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2020, 11:52:02 AM
Private building is done by private builders who charge as much as they can get away with (naturally enough).
What's needed is a Public building programme (tendered to builders) on Public/NAMA lands of houses for sale at cost plus admin fee  and/or Tenant purchase scheme with rents set to cover the cost over 30 years.
Credit Unions have about €4 Bn lying around which theyd love to lend to the Stare/NAMA for 18 months to get the houses built.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 12:25:41 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:27:09 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 12:34:14 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

The old kulak fallacy. A young tech graduate with big borrowings and no arse in his trousers has a current and lifetime earnings capacity that dwarfs his country uncle living on a 100 acre farm with a paper value of a million euro. When he gets to 60, he'll own the uncle's farm, it'll still be worth a million on paper and won't be able to turn a cent in actual income.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 16, 2020, 01:36:36 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.

Who will build them? That is the question. What people forget is that after the last economic collapse (courtesy of FF and Greens and Irish banks), the building business died and many of the tradesmen if not most had to emigrate. As a country we also became anti-builder (thanks to many of the cowboys who were in the business, the poor planning by councillors and banks that would give a dog a mortgage if he walked in asking for one). We also are of course anti-landlord (which is a word with negative connotations in Ireland to begin with, but we talk of modern day landlords as if they are the English gentry with their foot on the neck of tenants). Contrast with a city like New York where builders/developers are minor celebrities, indeed one of them is President. They can be gobshites too. But they don't have to put up with the negativity that attaches to them in Ireland and both luxury and low income housing is developed at a rapid scale - throughout the whole country. If you want to solve the housing crisis - you actually got to be nice to the "creators." We are not but we expect buildings and housing to spring up in the same way some husbands expect clean socks to magically appear in his sock drawer every morning.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 01:48:58 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 01:54:05 PM
At an optimistic unit cost of €250k per unit, 4 billion would build 16,000 houses, a drop in the ocean.

We need to get back to building at least 50,000 units a year.  I don't care who builds them, and no matter who does tradesmen, engineers and managers are going to charge top dollar anyway. Either way if the State takes on to do it, it is going to struggle to borrow the sort of money that is needed. That's why I suggest a private building programme.

Who will build them? That is the question. What people forget is that after the last economic collapse (courtesy of FF and Greens and Irish banks), the building business died and many of the tradesmen if not most had to emigrate. As a country we also became anti-builder (thanks to many of the cowboys who were in the business, the poor planning by councillors and banks that would give a dog a mortgage if he walked in asking for one). We also are of course anti-landlord (which is a word with negative connotations in Ireland to begin with, but we talk of modern day landlords as if they are the English gentry with their foot on the neck of tenants). Contrast with a city like New York where builders/developers are minor celebrities, indeed one of them is President. They can be gobshites too. But they don't have to put up with the negativity that attaches to them in Ireland and both luxury and low income housing is developed at a rapid scale - throughout the whole country. If you want to solve the housing crisis - you actually got to be nice to the "creators." We are not but we expect buildings and housing to spring up in the same way some husbands expect clean socks to magically appear in his sock drawer every morning.

You are of course correct. We are in a hole of our own making.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 16, 2020, 03:59:02 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

The statistics are misleading.

The CSO figures state that 21% of the Irish population in 2018 was under 14 years old. They own nothing. Another 12% was between 15 and 24. Very few of them own anything.

So already 33% own nothing and the remaining 67% own everything.

Only 38% of Irish people are aged over 44. Most people don't have their mortgages paid off by age 44. That's 62% of the population.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 16, 2020, 03:59:59 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

Its actually quite a large difference.

In the US, 5% of people own ~65% of everything.

Unless you think that ~25% wealth difference for that 4%of people in Ireland is insignificant?


Now, is it fair? Nope.
Does it need better distribution? Yep.
Are executives paid too much given their abilities? Absolutely.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2020, 06:05:18 PM
5% of people own 40% of everything.

If that is true, that is relatively progressive compared to some other places!

For contrast, in the USA, 1% of people own 40% of everything.
95% of people own 60% of everything VS 99% OF people own 60% of everything. Not much of  difference
It's all going to collapse.

Its actually quite a large difference.

In the US, 5% of people own ~65% of everything.

Unless you think that ~25% wealth difference for that 4%of people in Ireland is insignificant?


Now, is it fair? Nope.
Does it need better distribution? Yep.
Are executives paid too much given their abilities? Absolutely.
It’s one of the reasons RTÉ is in trouble
Demand is about the 100%
It’s just not sustainable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: thejuice on January 18, 2020, 09:15:02 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I’ve lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I’ve read but I’m sure you used to be able to do this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tatler Jack on January 18, 2020, 09:22:54 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I’ve lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I’ve read but I’m sure you used to be able to do this.

No. Irish people abroad cannot vote in elections unless they are registered to vote in Ireland and return to vote. There is no provision for postal voting.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on January 18, 2020, 11:41:07 PM
Anyone know if Irish citizens abroad can do a postal vote. I’ve lived in England since 2003. Not entirely clear on the websites I’ve read but I’m sure you used to be able to do this.

No. Irish people abroad cannot vote in elections unless they are registered to vote in Ireland and return to vote. There is no provision for postal voting.

Most voters have to vote in person at an official voting centre. However, you may be eligible for a postal vote if you are:

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 19, 2020, 09:12:00 AM
Anyone know any company’s who could erect a tent at the Galway races for hospitality purposes?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:30:57 AM
My picture from the outside looking in is that Leo is generally good on EU, has got NI up and running again and has a logical view on how we move towards unity, and the economy is growing strongly, so tell me, what is at the heart of the election: homelessness; inequality; public services?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 11:39:13 AM
My picture from the outside looking in is that Leo is generally good on EU, has got NI up and running again and has a logical view on how we move towards unity, and the economy is growing strongly, so tell me, what is at the heart of the election: homelessness; inequality; public services?
Housing
Health
Childcare costs
Insurance costs
Jobs outside Dublin
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:44:45 AM
Thanks
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Sportacus on January 19, 2020, 11:53:23 AM
And gangs?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 01:08:37 PM
And gangs?
Yeah. Has really come into focus this week.
All fueled by citizens putting white stuff up their noses
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 01:27:03 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point. 

 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 02:04:14 PM
I think that poll was done before the GE was called around the time of the RIC nonsense.
Hard to see the Shinners getting that percentage in a real election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 19, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point.

What's the difference between FF/FG - same side of the same coin in terms of policies.

Homelessness - FG/FF mess.
Health- FG/FF mess.
Gangland warfare - FG/FF mess.
No policy on the environment - FG/FG mess.

Can't get any worse...oh, let's commemorate the Black & Tans!!!

Keep adding to the list.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 19, 2020, 02:57:45 PM
I think that poll was done before the GE was called around the time of the RIC nonsense.
Hard to see the Shinners getting that percentage in a real election.

Well if that is the case then it's hard to see how FG will have clawed back any support since then, one faux pas after another. Leo does not look comfortable out meeting the general public unless it is a stage managed event with his own supporters present. If FG manage to lose this election then I reckon Simon Coveney will be waiting in the wings to take over. If FF lose it then Micheal Martin has to go, so the stakes are high. Don't think SF will poll at 19% either, the other parties will have plenty of ammunition on them which will be unleashed as the campaign goes on and things get dirtier.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2020, 04:17:02 PM
Latest poll which is the first carried out since December:

FF....................32%................+5
FG...................20%.................-7
SF...................19%..................-1
Green.............7%...................+1
Labour............4%...................-2
Ind Alliance.....3%...................+1
Other...............15%..................+3

That is some drop off for FG in the space of a month, their campaign has got off to a disastrous start. The Black and Tans episode, the homeless man getting hit by a forklift in a tent and the Drogheda feud will all have played a part. This particular government have relied a lot on spin doctoring and PR but people are starting to see through the bull and are judging them on their actual record on health, homelessness and crime which is brutal. I'm not surprised that FF are ahead in the polls but I am surprised at just how far because it is not down to Micheal Martin's leadership or direction but simply because FG have shot themselves in the foot and FF are seen as the only other viable alternative. Are people ready for another FF led government, it would be some form of redemption long before many people would have anticipated it a few years back. 

Both parties have already ruled out government with SF so really SF are just playing for how many seats they can gain whilst the continued decline of the Labour party is the other big talking point.

Agree Michael Martin is one of the most spineless politicians I've ever come across and is not a leader by any stretch of the imagination. I dont agree on SF just going to win seats as coalition is ruled out - that will never be known until we see how the cards fall after the election.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 19, 2020, 05:56:24 PM
On that poll Fianna Fáil will easily lead next government. But I would not trust if it was done over phone or in-person as during height of Tans controversy, people would be downright embarrassed about saying they were supporting Fine Gael, but the same people who had record money to spend over Christmas in the privacy of polling booth will be mé fein. That is how American pollsters had Hilary so far ahead and got shock of lives when Trump got elected. Would still expect FG to fare badly but it is hard to see people give such a resounding victory to FF. Poor reflection on Mary Lou that they can’t make hay of anti government sentiment.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 06:08:30 PM
Poor reflection on Mary Lou that they can’t make hay of anti government sentiment.

SF only aim to attract votes from people with the chip on their shoulder, who think that the government is someone else doing something to them. For all their "republicanism" they haven't really bought into the idea that everyone has to contribute to the Republic as well as expecting something from it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2020, 08:50:04 PM
Mary Lou is not liked by most floating voters down here
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 19, 2020, 09:07:16 PM
If you want to vote left wing in ireland just vote Labour. Why vote for SF? A party of thugs and loonies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2020, 09:18:18 PM
If you want to vote left wing in ireland just vote Labour. Why vote for SF? A party of thugs and loonies.

Labour left wing. You know nothing if you think that lsd.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 19, 2020, 10:38:38 PM
From my own vox pop, Fine Gael are in trouble. They were elected back in 2011 on the specific premise that they would tidy up the mess left by Fianna Fail and bring probity etc. back into government again.
They have failed miserably and many people have long memories.
Remember the water rates fiasco back in 2014. (I think it was 2014.)
A tsunami pf shite would submerge the country if we didn’t all, like honest citizens, pony up and make Denis Desmond an ever richer man than he already was.
The ferocity of the popular backlash made them back off and , surprise, surprise, we have heard nothing since then about the urgent need for reform of our water supply and wastewater disposal. I am surprised at the number of people who feel sore about this attempted scam.
The €2.2 bn overrun in building the children's’ hospital and the fact that nothing was done to find out who was guilty of this hasn’t gone down well either.
Health, housing, homelessness and Harris were brought up by many I spoke to and the three Murphys came in for a lot of abuse also. If all that wasn’t enough, the way Flanagan and Varadker tried to arrange a commemoration for the RIC was the last straw.
Personally speaking, I won’t be voting FG but I haven’t forgiven FF for what they did to the country either.
Martin is about as capable as Varadker and if he becomes Taoiseah, it will only be because he is slightly the lesser of two eejits.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2020, 11:08:42 PM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 19, 2020, 11:53:07 PM
the ferocity of the popular backlash made them back off and , surprise, surprise, we have heard nothing since then about the urgent need for reform of our water supply and wastewater disposal. I am surprised at the number of people who feel sore about this attempted scam.

The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Quote
The €2.2 bn overrun in building the children's’ hospital and the fact that nothing was done to find out who was guilty of this hasn’t gone down well either.

Nobody is ever responsible in such cases.

Health, housing, homelessness and Harris were brought up by many I spoke to and the three Murphys came in for a lot of abuse also.

The 3 Murphys sounds like a comedy act, which is appropriate.

Quote
Personally speaking, I won’t be voting FG but I haven’t forgiven FF for what they did to the country either.
Martin is about as capable as Varadker and if he becomes Taoiseah, it will only be because he is slightly the lesser of two eejits.

I've come the conclusion that these people only try a bit at the start so all you can do is switch them around. It is a bit like house insurance, if you switch insurer from time to time then they give you better quotes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 20, 2020, 08:58:23 AM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.


Sadly a depressing truth. As a nation we're institutionalised and addicted  to the FF/FG Punch and Judy show. Long past time we woke up and tried something different. It mightn't work either but you never know - it just might be better.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
My thinking on FF and FG is this

1) Varadker is a way more intelligent and astute politician than Martin. At least he says what he thinks even if i so not agree with many things he says. Martin has no opinion on anything and just wants to check which way the wind blows before deciding. He is ball-less.

2) Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than their Fianna Fail counterparts.

3) I do not like FG idelogy at all and while I dont like FF much either, i would be closer to them than FG.

So basically, I will vote SF No 1 and I am really struggling after that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:10:19 PM
1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

2) The likes of Eoghan Murphy, Simon Harris, Richard Bruton and Regina Doherty are poor ads for the theory that Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than anyone else.

3) Neither FG nor FF have any real ideology. See 1).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:11:48 PM
It'll be interesting to see how the odds move in the run-up to election day. At the moment, next Taoiseach is:

Martin 1/5
Varadker 3/1

Next government (need to have a Cabinet Minister to be part of the government, for the purposes of these odds:)

Fianna Fail/Green 6/1

FF/SD/Lab/Green 6/1

Fianna Fail/Independents 8/1

FG/Lab/SD/Green 10/1

FF/Green/Independents 10/1

FF/Lab/Green/Independents 11/1

FF/Lab/Green 12/1

Fine Gael/Fianna Fail 12/1

Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein 12/1

Fine Gael/Green 12/1

Fianna Fail Minority 14/1

FG/Green/Independents 14/1

Fine Gael/Independents 16/1

Fine Gael/Sinn Fein 18/1

Fianna Fail Majority 20/1

Fine Gael Minority 20/1

Fianna Fail/Labour 20/1

FG/Lab/Green/Independents 22/1

FG/Lab/Green 22/1

FF/Lab/Independents 22/1

Fine Gael/Labour 25/1



If I was to put a bet on where I think there's some value, I'd go with FG/Green or FG/Green/Independents
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 20, 2020, 01:20:53 PM
The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Yep. Of course, the Greens were one of the strongest supporters of water charges.
Interesting that some of the strongest anti-water charge brigade feel the Greens are the best.
But they may change their mind again when the Greens bring in their new taxes. But as you call them, "the pay nothing brigade" always seem to assume that someone else should pay it for them.


1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

Never heard that before.
Can you provide a link to substantiate (presumably you didn't just fabricate it) ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 01:28:00 PM
Never heard that before.
Can you provide a link to substantiate (presumably you didn't just fabricate it) ?

Really? Both are well known. Why you'd suggest that I might fabricate this is beyond me.

“I consider myself to be pro-life in that I accept that the unborn child is a human life with rights. I cannot, therefore, accept the view that it is a simple matter of choice. There are two lives involved in any pregnancy. For that reason, like most people in the country, I do not support abortion on request or on demand.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/leo-varadkar-s-shifting-view-on-abortion-will-be-key-to-campaign-1.3351288

“The question of adoption is ignored in this Bill because it is contentious. Sooner or later, it will have to be addressed. Every child has a father and a mother. Two men or two women cannot have a child together. A single person cannot have a child on their own unless they procure the pre-products of conception from an alternative source. This is an undeniable fact. [412] Unfortunately, sometimes in children’s lives one of the parents is not interested in them or dies. Where a child is an orphan, the State should replace their mother and father. Every child has the right to a mother and father and, as much as is possible, the State should vindicate that right. That is a much more important right than that of two men or women having a family. That is the principle that should underline our laws regarding children and adoption. I am also uncomfortable about adoption by single people regardless of their sexual orientation. I do not believe I as a single man should adopt a child. The child should go to parents, a mother and father, to replace what the child had before."

https://ionainstitute.ie/what-leo-varadkar-said-about-the-right-to-a-mother-and-a-father-in-full/

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 20, 2020, 01:28:02 PM
Either Leo or Micheál will be the next Taoiseach.
About the only question is will it be a Coalition or a Confidence/Supply thingy.


Sadly a depressing truth. As a nation we're institutionalised and addicted  to the FF/FG Punch and Judy show. Long past time we woke up and tried something different. It mightn't work either but you never know - it just might be better.
I'd love to think so too, Seanie, but I can't see it ever happening. This is a democracy so the TDs are elected by the people. Voters tend to vote for those who best mirror their own interests and opinions, if you know what I mean.
TDs reflect the values of those who elect them in simple English. So, if you don't have an electorate that is, in the main, opposed to the use of brown envelopes and underhand horsetrading, it's highly unlikely that that these they elect will prove to be any more honest or diligent.
It's hard to accept it but FF/FG rule the proverbial roost because they are the preferred choice of a huge swathe of the general public.
Ironically, probably 95% of the electorate would feel offended if you pointed out this obvious truth to them!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2020, 01:58:19 PM
1) Varadkar opposed gay marriage and abortion when it was popular and profitable to do so. He is no better or worse than Micheal Martin.

2) The likes of Eoghan Murphy, Simon Harris, Richard Bruton and Regina Doherty are poor ads for the theory that Fine Gael politicians are on average more competent than anyone else.

3) Neither FG nor FF have any real ideology. See 1).

You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. All I say is that I dislike both men and parties - but I have to decide where my No 2, 3, 4 go and thats what I was alluding to.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 20, 2020, 02:52:58 PM
You are entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. All I say is that I dislike both men and parties - but I have to decide where my No 2, 3, 4 go and thats what I was alluding to.

Exactly. And that's why I haven't questioned your choice of where your vote goes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 20, 2020, 10:21:05 PM
The water and wastewater still needs investment, but the pay nothing brigade reckon water falls for free so investing in it has not been a priority.
Yep. Of course, the Greens were one of the strongest supporters of water charges.
Interesting that some of the strongest anti-water charge brigade feel the Greens are the best.
But they may change their mind again when the Greens bring in their new taxes. But as you call them, "the pay nothing brigade" always seem to assume that someone else should pay it for them.

any sane person could see that water charges are necessary!! there are idiots out wasting water every day of the week
the greens were in favour of full state ownership, proper water allowances, water storage tanks for all new one off builds (quite sensible if you ask me) whereas FG wanted the private sector to get their slice.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 20, 2020, 10:44:55 PM
Latest Poll out tonight:

Fianna Fáil 25 (~)
Fine Gael 23 (-6)
Sinn Fein 21 (+7)
Green Party 8 (~)
Labour 5 (-1)
Ind/Other 18 (~)

Polls are rarely accurate but two in a row now show a significant surge for SF. When the latest poll shows just four 8 points separating the top 3 parties, and a 13 point gap between the top 3 and the best of the rest, it makes the decisions by RTÉ and Virgin to exclude SF from their first debates all the more ridiculous and hard to justify.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2020, 11:02:38 PM
Presumably the decision is based on the small percentage of the vote they got in the Locals and Euros real elections plus Maryloo is not going to be the next Taoiseach.
Then again a SF/Green/SDP/Labour Coalition might just be what the State needs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 20, 2020, 11:33:19 PM
They'll always come up with ways to justify their decision but when two polls indicate that three parties are closely tied, then the decision to exclude one of them will appear to many people to be another example of the state funded, public service broadcaster, breaching it's own rules on impartiality. It isn't for RTÉ to decide who will be the next taoiseach, but they leave themselves wide open to the charge of trying to unduly influence who it will be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 08:58:58 AM
In the real World i.e Local and Euro elections 2019 Shinners got 9.5% and 11.7% of the 1st Preference Vote.
Did half them stay at home or what?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 09:47:38 AM
This is the real world. And I've already stayed that polls are rarely accurate, but when two polls show a tight contest between three parties that are far and away ahead of the rest, then rightly or wrongly, RTÉ leave themselves wide open to the charge facing them by excluding one of them.

I personally don't agree with debates that exclude any party leaders by a broadcaster that claims to impose a rule of strict impartiality upon itself, but if they are going to have such debates, and the latest research shows three parties are way ahead of the rest, then they should surely reflect that.

As I say, it's not RTÉ's job to decide who will be the next Taoiseach, but there will only ever be a choice of two when the main media outlets persist in embedding the notion in peoples head that that is the reality.

Yesterday I listened to a podcast from Today FM from the day the election was called. Their political correspondent outlined that peoples choices were FF or FG, and to use his exact words "or then you have this weird grouping of centre left parties, the Social Democrats, the Greens, Labour". Not a single mention of SF at any stage in the discussion, and the other parties outside of FF/FG  described as "weird". Thats the message that is being subliminally/overtly delivered to people; 'Your choice is FF or FG. Don't be thinking of anything else.'

The fact that FF and FG have been in bed together for the past four years I suspect means more people are now accepting that policy wise, you couldn't get a cigarette paper between them, and a real and useful and democratic debate cannot happen when SF as the next biggest party, are barred from participation.

Interestingly, a former head of TV at RTÉ tweeted last night "As a former Director of TV at RTÉ, I would expect, given the party’s showing in these 2 polls, that Sinn Féin would be added to the Leaders’ Debates." And followed it up by saying "I believe that a party with a 20% poll should be included. Let them all be questioned on a public platform together. Fair."

It's hardly a big ask and more importantly, hardly an undemocratic one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 21, 2020, 10:10:44 AM
The irony is that if SF were included in the debate then it would probably damage them in the election, since both the main parties have plenty of ammunition to attack them on. There may be a certain element of Official Ireland protecting it's own self interest by excluding them and making it a duel between FG/FF but it also suits the SF narrative being a party of protest to be able to cry foul.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 10:24:35 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 10:43:50 AM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.


Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 10:51:21 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 21, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 21, 2020, 11:23:33 AM
It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.

The anti-Brit rhetoric over Brexit is set to bite FG & FF in the ass. As is the extra fiver a week every year to OAPs, which is necessitating the rise in the OAP pension age. SF have made hay on both.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 21, 2020, 11:43:38 AM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue

Not much good when action is required as proven when they controlled Dublin City Council. The O’Devanney Gardens fiasco originally signed off by SF shows the nonsense of signing off on social/affordable housing without any clue how it was going to be funded. SF do need to be on debate so these types of issues can be raised, instead of getting a free ride as hurlers on the ditch.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 12:22:19 PM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue, while Pearse Doherty has impressed on the insurance rip off. His campaigning on pension ages seems to be striking a chord too. There are crises in housing and homelessness that people are angry about, and on top of that, for the first time FG and FG have been jointly responsible for this as partners in power and there is an anger there. So as you say, if people vote again for FF or FG, maybe they do deserve what they get.

I am just relaying what a lot of "experts" are saying, if the gains are for genuine political reasons fair enough, the 2 lads you have mentioned are the best SF have, but the talent isn't there after that to push any real political or economic change.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 12:24:11 PM
The RTE decesion is playing into SF hands.

Let them on, they will crumble the more exposure they get. The RIC scandal was a joke, and a disgrace to even suggest it, but if SF gain based on this and the RTE debate rather than policy well people deserve what they get

It's silly to suggest that the RIC debacle is the only explanation for SFs high polling figures. Éoin Ó'Broin has been outstanding on the housing issue

Not much good when action is required as proven when they controlled Dublin City Council. The O’Devanney Gardens fiasco originally signed off by SF shows the nonsense of signing off on social/affordable housing without any clue how it was going to be funded. SF do need to be on debate so these types of issues can be raised, instead of getting a free ride as hurlers on the ditch.

SF are bleeding the North dry along with DUP due to total economic ineptitude.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:04:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 21, 2020, 02:18:51 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Agreed. But a UI isnt a SF idea. It is aspired to by all nationalist parties on the island, its their view of timing that is different
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 21, 2020, 02:22:36 PM
Okay I agree with you on that - probably wasn't clear but I also agree this is not a SF only thing and would be a failure if it was.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 21, 2020, 02:25:18 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 21, 2020, 02:25:22 PM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.


Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on January 21, 2020, 03:05:07 PM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.


Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?
Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%
Leitrim 17.2%
Donegal 19.4%
Cavan 12.4%
Monaghan 34.4%
Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%
Laois 11.1%
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 21, 2020, 07:27:04 PM
I wonder where those opinion polls were carried out.
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.


Really?

2016 election - SF First Pref %
Roscommon/Galway - 6.7%;
Donegal - 26.7%;
Sligo/Leitrim - 17.8%;
Mayo - 10.1%;
Galway West - 8.9%;
Galway East - 5.9%;
Longford/Westmeath - 9.5%;
Cavan/Monaghan - 27.1%
Laois - 21.2%;
Offaly - 10.9%.
Would you have the more recent and relevant...2019 figures?


How about breaking the habit of a lifetime and admitting you were wrong for once? 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:30:02 AM
How about reading your fellow Sligoman's post.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 22, 2020, 03:05:39 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

The bank guarantee was not the EU's bright idea.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 22, 2020, 03:08:01 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Agreed. But a UI isnt a SF idea. It is aspired to by all nationalist parties on the island, its their view of timing that is different

Indeed. To listen to some Shinners, you'd think that anyone who wants anything short of a UI by midnight tonight is some sort of west-brit, bootlicking, pope-kicking unionist.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: WT4E on January 22, 2020, 11:00:59 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 12:00:22 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You’ve used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 22, 2020, 12:02:03 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

The bank guarantee was not the EU's bright idea.

Apples and oranges.

The bank guarantee guaranteed deposits.

The EU insisted we pay bondholders and interbank debt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 22, 2020, 12:04:35 PM
I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project.

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-slashes-funding-for-bosnia/
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 12:47:07 PM
How about reading your fellow Sligoman's post.


I did read it. Clearly you didn't or you don't understand what you typed yourself.

Quote
Doubtful if Shinners would get 5% here or in most Western or Midland constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 01:06:05 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 01:16:54 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.


It's not hair splitting. Your statement was 100%, clearly incorrect. SF got 13% across Midlands-North West last year in the Euro election. That's actually closer to 20% than your completely laughable less than 5%.

Admit you fcuked up.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 01:20:42 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.

The problem there is that "the 20% being bandied about" (or to reword that for you: the 20-21% findings from the two most recent opinion polls), was a 26 county figure and not a figure restricted to "Western or Midland constituencies" as you were basing your remarks on. You said they would struggle to reach 5% in in "most of" those western & midland constituencies.

The evidence posted directly and comprehensively discredits your claim. That isn't a matter of discussion or debate. The figures are there. When you're wrong and the evidence to show it is presented for everyone to see, ffs have it in you to admit it lol
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 02:15:43 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You’ve used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 02:51:49 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.

And what if there was an actual 2 party coalition, the independents would be useless in that instance.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 03:49:25 PM
Looks like I'll be voting Fitzmaurice and Naughten 1 and 2.
After that I don't know as I swore never to vote FF again after 2007, FG have been awful on the 2 main crises affecting people (Housing and Health), and apart from a Green candidate I'd be wasting my vote on the rest. Mind you voting Green round here would also be a waste.
FG have someone I never heard of from Galway while FF have hopped Orla Leyden in for gender balance and presumably to dump Eugene Murphy.
Be great if we could get 3 Independents in.

And what if there was an actual 2 party coalition, the independents would be useless in that instance.
I'm all for voting for Independents, where I think they are good, in local and European elections. They can certainly make a difference at local level and they can contribute as much as anyone at EU level (which isn't a whole heap for any Irish MEP, but that's a different thread..)

But Independents are largely useless when it comes to running the country, and when needed for a government often hold the country to ransom based on local/single issues.

If what they stand for is truly worthy of support based on national issues, surely there should be enough of like-mind to form a party, or at least a grouping, and bring about an actual alternative.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:04:31 PM
Any more hairs to split?
Still a long way off the 20% being bandied about from opinion polls.


It's not hair splitting. Your statement was 100%, clearly incorrect. SF got 13% across Midlands-North West last year in the Euro election. That's actually closer to 20% than your completely laughable less than 5%.

Admit you fcuked up.
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:23:10 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)

Wow. That's some mental gymnastics! So basically you were right so long as everyone else accepts that:

1. Donegal (a county on the west coast) is not in the west, so must be excluded
2. Cavan and Monaghan (both landlocked counties) are not midland counties, so must be excluded
3. Leitrim & Laois can be excluded solely because SF's results there are far higher than suits your argument

Any other straws you can clutch to or is that it?


I said MOST Western and Midlands.

Indeed you did. And even if we indulged your staggering mental gymnastics above and removed all the constituencies you asked us to remove, then most of the rest STILL had SF at over 5% going by the 2019 figures:

Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%

Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%


Wouldn't it just be easier to say, 'ok fair enough, I was wrong'?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:28:28 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: johnnycool on January 22, 2020, 04:30:54 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Again?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You’ve used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

Plenty of people work their bollocks off for significanly less than €80k.

You sound like a Tatcherite.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 22, 2020, 04:35:38 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You’ve used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

I'm not a Shinner, but the UK will be paying their way in regards to reunification. That's not even up for discussion. They will obligations that they will simply have to meet. But if Unionists have a long road to travel many those comments show many Republicans and Nationalists have an even longer one.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 04:42:17 PM
I said MOST Western and Midlands.
Donegal, Cavan, Monaghan are not West or Midlands.
Including Leitrim and Laois gives you around 7%.
Excluding those 2 double figures percentages gives you around 6%.
We Connacht people usually speak in broad indicative terms and leave the narrow literal interpretations to Northerners and Solicitors ;)

Wow. That's some mental gymnastics! So basically you were right so long as everyone else accepts that:

1. Donegal (a county on the west coast) is not in the west, so must be excluded
2. Cavan and Monaghan (both landlocked counties) are not midland counties, so must be excluded
3. Leitrim & Laois can be excluded solely because SF's results there are far higher than suits your argument

Any other straws you can clutch to or is that it?


I said MOST Western and Midlands.

Indeed you did. And even if we indulged you staggering mental gymnastics above, and removed all the constituencies you asked up to remove), then most of the rest STILL had SF at over 5% going by the 2019 figures:

Roscommon 7.4%
Galway Co 4.8%
Galway City 5.4%
Mayo 7.4%
Sligo 8.2%

Longford 4.6%
Westmeath 5.8%
Offaly 4.6%


Wouldn't it just be easier to say, 'ok fair enough, I was wrong'?


It would have been.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 22, 2020, 04:49:47 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 04:51:12 PM
Galway County, Offaly, Longford..
"Doubtful if SF would get more than 5% in most Western or Midland Constituencies"
My conditional prediction may or may not prove accurate as time will tell.
Antway if we're to have a Left leaning Government SF need to do the improbable and get nearly all their 40 or 41 candidates elected and need 39/40 left leaning TDs to support them.
A long long shot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 05:22:47 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2020, 06:10:54 PM
An FF/FG/FFS grand coalition is looking likely.
A bit more formal than the existing confidence and supply arrangement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 06:48:41 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 22, 2020, 06:50:59 PM
Opinion poll a few days ago (Irish Times) gave progressive parties 38% (SF 21, Green 8, Lab 5, SD 2, AAA-PBP 2), Conservatives 48% (FF 25 FG 23). Independents 14%. That's a comparative that shouldn't be ignored.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 22, 2020, 07:37:33 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you but the "some possible economic downside" bit is worrying. It took the south 40 years from independence to even make a dent in this downside. The EU sunk us to save the French and German banks in 2010, they haven't a notion of funding us for a decade, let alone 40 years and nor will the UK.

British leaving the 26 can't be compared to this scenario in my opinion. UK want out of the North and will pay for the privilege when the day comes I think. I anticipate the EU will help fund as a reunification/peace project. The North has an established economy that will function better under a one island model.

Even if it did take 10 years to sort it would be to the benefit of future generations and morale in general of the whole island (Blue Shirt Black & Tan supporters would eventually enjoy it)

You’ve used a beloved Irish economic theory there: sure someone else will pay for it.
Yep, a typical Shinner.

Like the populist move to bring the pension age back to 65.
Who'd pay for that???

Beware if you've worked your bollix off in school, college and the workplace and are now earning €80k or more. SF will come to get you.

Plenty of people work their bollocks off for significanly less than €80k.

You sound like a Tatcherite.

Where did I say otherwise?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 22, 2020, 08:36:18 PM
Opinion poll a few days ago (Irish Times) gave progressive parties 38% (SF 21, Green 8, Lab 5, SD 2, AAA-PBP 2), Conservatives 48% (FF 25 FG 23). Independents 14%. That's a comparative that shouldn't be ignored.
That seems about right and you can be sure the spin doctors in both of the big parties are fully aware of this as well. However, in all likelihood, polls like this one tend to underestimate the support FF/FG will get at the ballot box and, conversely, the minnows are likely to get less.
THe big two have a degree of organisation in every constituency in the land that no other party can match. THey have more canvassers to knock on doors, handout flyers and hang posters. ON election day, they will have cars to bring elderly/infirm voters to the centres.
Apart from all that, only the big two will have someone standing in every constituency in the country. The minnows and this includes SF have nowhere near as many candidates standing so their % vote can be misleading.
For instance the Greens in the above poll register 8%.
But 8% is their countrywide average and they won’t be fielding candidates in every constituency so what they get in Dun Laoghaire/Rathdown or Dublin South or wherever, will need to be considerably more than 8% if they are to win a seat.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 08:42:31 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 08:56:09 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.

Maybe if someone such as Ó Cuiv was FF leader that would be possible. Cannot see FF/SF coalition under Martin. Also,SF would be betraying their own voters if that happened too in my opinion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 22, 2020, 09:23:07 PM
SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best.

So basically it's a waste of time voting for anyone other than the main two parties, because it amounts to "just a protest vote"?

An interesting, if a tad ironic, theory to hear coming from an SDLP fanboy.

If FG get a kicking from the electorate (as opinion polls would appear to suggest), they will go into opposition. Then FF and SF will likely be left with the responsibility of forming a government. Will they accept that responsibility. If I recall correctly, no one was too keen to form a government after last election, other than Enda Kenny, despite FG also losing a lot of seats.
Be under no illusion, FF and FG will not coalesce with the Shinners under any circumstances. That's nothing to do with ideology and all to do with popularity. The two major players in Irish politics won't accept  another will do everything they can to prevent SF becoming a threat to them both.
If FF becomes the majority party, FG will do a confidence & supply deal with them and if, somehow, FG is the one with the most seats, things will continue as before.
In a nutshell, FF and FG may dislike each other but both fear SF and don't want to give them a look in of any sort.

If they both do okish they will continue the confidence and supply. But if Fine Gael take a bad beating, they will go into opposition to lick their wounds (as they should, and would be the smarter move for them). In which case, FF and SF will come under pressure to form a government, especially if they are the two parties with the momentum.

Maybe if someone such as Ó Cuiv was FF leader that would be possible. Cannot see FF/SF coalition under Martin. Also,SF would be betraying their own voters if that happened too in my opinion.

But unlike last time, they have announced they are prepared to go into coalition. Granted Mary Lou has moved the goalposts slightly in that she has demanded a border poll as part of going into coalition. But that can only be granted by UK Secretary of State, so I can't see what Martin could do about that other than meekly ask. I think the outcome of this election will force parties into making decisions on whether they put party or country first. It will be interesting.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 10:13:07 PM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!

Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 10:46:47 PM
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

FF are absolutely reprehensible and Martin makes my skin crawl.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 22, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 22, 2020, 11:12:12 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

Is that a 'tender' then...lol.  Slippery FF/FG lecturing anybody on economics is quite ironic.  They decimated rural Ireland by their cost cutting - post offices closed all over the place.  Rural crime rampant and what do they do....they close more garda stations.

Approx 8 years to try and solve the housing and health issues and no inroads has been make on it.

Time to go - time for change!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 22, 2020, 11:27:38 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 22, 2020, 11:30:43 PM
Irish Free State was abolished in 1937.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 22, 2020, 11:32:58 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

+1. Probably voting SF after that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 23, 2020, 12:06:48 AM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 23, 2020, 08:55:01 AM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?

That's the establishment for you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 09:40:26 AM
The absolute hypocrisy of Vardaker and Martin in relation to a SF coalition is breathtaking, almost a quarter of a century since the cease fire and they are still peddling this partitionist nonsense that is insulting to the vast majority of nationalists in the North and a good slice of the southern electorate. SF may well have men in dark rooms dictating policy but FF and FG have also unelected developers, bankers and businesses exerting similar influence. I would not agree with all SF's economic policies but their broad thrust on housing and social justice could lead to a fairer society. The SDLP if they had any balls would call out this partitionist bullshit, but given that their only policy starts with a but SF... that's unlikely.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 10:11:45 AM
The absolute hypocrisy of Vardaker and Martin in relation to a SF coalition is breathtaking, almost a quarter of a century since the cease fire and they are still peddling this partitionist nonsense that is insulting to the vast majority of nationalists in the North and a good slice of the southern electorate. SF may well have men in dark rooms dictating policy but FF and FG have also unelected developers, bankers and businesses exerting similar influence. I would not agree with all SF's economic policies but their broad thrust on housing and social justice could lead to a fairer society. The SDLP if they had any balls would call out this partitionist bullshit, but given that their only policy starts with a but SF... that's unlikely.


It's a perfect storm for SF I think. They exposed their rank hypocrisy and Mary Lou didn't have to be there to defend SF.

I'd have a few concerns about SF myself but my hope is for a left alliance of SF/Green/Lab/SD/PbP so we can get on with addressing the really pressing issues of climate, income inequality, housing, healthcare and the jobs timebomb approaching before it's too late. FF and FG will not address any of these issues. They'll keep serving the wealthy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 23, 2020, 10:23:11 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 10:24:36 AM
Why not?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 12:00:48 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that’s an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O’Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That’s a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 23, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that’s an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O’Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That’s a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 23, 2020, 12:08:17 PM
I'd give Leo the nod for his performance last night but only because he was there for the taking. Michéal had his past as a FF minister to to defend so he was going ltg to get some flak over this but he was out of office for eight years and Leo's failings are in here here and now so I felt he'd be more vulnerable to accusations of incompetence than Martin before the gig began.
Varadker survived and I'd mark that down as a plus.
I think the FG spin doctors had done a better job of batin' a bit of gravitas and pseudo sincerity and humility into their man than their counterparts did with their man.
I think Martin hadn't expected Leo to stand up to him and thought that by highlighting the government's failings, Leo would be there for the taking.
In the event, Leo survived albeit with a few proverbial kicks up the ass. He can feel slightly more relieved by his performance than Michéal can with his.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 12:16:03 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 12:27:45 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that’s an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O’Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That’s a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.
Until there's enough supply to meet demand, developers will fleece people wherever they can. The fact that there's damn all housebuilding outside the larger cities, and not enough within them, suggests it's not that attractive a proposition in most cases.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 12:53:21 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that’s an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O’Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That’s a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.


If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up. Unlike say rolling out broadband everywhere costing billions and not actually owning it after that. Just because it's not free market economics doesn't mean it doesn't add up or make sense. We need to look at countries where solutions are working - Finland a great example. The only country in the EU where homelessness is decreasing and in fact it's almost eliminated. They come up with solutions based on needs because they're capable of independent thought. We're very much at the "four legs good, two legs bad" level of analysis unfortunately.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 12:57:36 PM
If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up.

The experience to date in this country and elsewhere is that the rent the State receives from social housing is rarely if ever enough to meet the cost of maintaining them long-term. Forget altogether about repaying the original investment.

That's why council estates across the land are riddled with empty derelict properties and others heading in the same direction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 01:03:19 PM
If you build those social houses you'll generate rent from those who take them up.

The experience to date in this country and elsewhere is that the rent the State received from social housing is rarely if ever enough to meet the cost of maintaining them long-term. Forget altogether about repaying the original investment.

That's why council estates across the land are riddled with empty derelict properties and others heading in the same direction.


Why is this though? Is it because those living in them were unemployed or not paid enough for the work they did? At least we have a minimum, if not a living wage now. I'd also suggest a good % of social houses should be rent to buy to give people that chance to own their home one day. The "experience to date" in this country is a pretty poor foundation for any economic discussion I'd suggest also though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: TheOptimist on January 23, 2020, 01:12:36 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

This one often amuses me. Not saying you, but there is sometimes an attitude, SF policies sound like FF policies that failed so people should vote for FF instead!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 01:19:03 PM
Why is this though? Is it because those living in them were unemployed or not paid enough for the work they did? At least we have a minimum, if not a living wage now. I'd also suggest a good % of social houses should be rent to buy to give people that chance to own their home one day. The "experience to date" in this country is a pretty poor foundation for any economic discussion I'd suggest also though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.

Why weren't the properties maintained?

Pick your answer:

1. their owners (the councils) couldn't afford to.
or
2. they didn't bother to.

though I wouldn't be so sure you're assertion is correct.
Which assertion?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: andoireabu on January 23, 2020, 01:29:21 PM
Sinn Fein need to be on these debates so they can be asked about their populist policies. I specifically want to know how they will fund these 100,000 social houses. At say 100 grand a house, that’s an astronomical cost to taxpayer. They signed off on the social housing for O’Devanney Gardens without any plan for how they would be funded and then washed their hands of the fiasco when this emerged. We have seen enough Fianna Fáil populist policies bankrupt the country to go down that road again. The solution to housing for young people is staring us in face. Young people want to live in urban areas, near culture and city life. That’s a worldwide trend. We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units, with a law requiring x amount be for families on lower income at lower prices. Let private developers build, let them make money. Government has no business being property developers, building shit, and fleecing the taxpayer, the minority paying for everything.
Problem is developers are back fleecing people on the housing market. Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

How much does a developer make per house or a site they develop?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 01:55:09 PM

How much does a developer make per house or a site they develop?

As much as they can after paying everyone.

20 years ago it was a lucrative trade and we had houses built everywhere. Around here there hasn't been one built anywhere for 10 or 12 years and you'd pay an arm and a leg to rent a place if you can find one. Something's gone haywire.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.

This one often amuses me. Not saying you, but there is sometimes an attitude, SF policies sound like FF policies that failed so people should vote for FF instead!

That's how the Irish people operate. Austerity usually has to be carried out by a coalition of FG and Labour, and much needed social legislation (divorce, abortion). This ends up alienating a huge amount of people. FF swoop in with their populist policies and people forget the recession they caused in the 1980s that caused 250,000 to emigrate with high unemployment, and similar a decade ago. The previous party get little thanks. Ruari Quinn in last rainbow coalition brought in the corp tax that revolutionised employment in this country yet Labour are still being punished for trying to clean up the mess FF created after inheriting a great economy from that coalition. SF are now out there with the populist policies. Pension age 65 is typical. Every developed country is going to need to raise this age. People are living longer and funding an aging population will be one of the biggest challenges of our time. These are facts that we need to embrace but gets turned into hysteria.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:18:40 PM
That's how the Irish people operate. Austerity usually has to be carried out by a coalition of FG and Labour, and much needed social legislation (divorce, abortion). This ends up alienating a huge amount of people. FF swoop in with their populist policies and people forget the recession they caused in the 1980s that caused 250,000 to emigrate with high unemployment, and similar a decade ago. The previous party get little thanks.

It was Charlie Haughey's FF who implemented austerity in 1987 after FG/Labour had sat in government for 5 years and refused to tackle a big public spending deficit problem (which admittedly had been caused originally by Jack Lynch and worsened by Haughey).
 
Ruari Quinn in last rainbow coalition brought in the corp tax that revolutionised employment in this country yet Labour are still being punished for trying to clean up the mess FF created after inheriting a great economy from that coalition
Quinn merely updated Corporation Tax that was previously 10% for manufacturing companies and widened it to all companies. Quinn also introduced the Seaside Resorts tax incentive, the first of the big tax incentives that fuelled the bubble, but he's much too shy to claim credit for that.


SF are now out there with the populist policies. Pension age 65 is typical. Every developed country is going to need to raise this age. People are living longer and funding an aging population will be one of the biggest challenges of our time. These are facts that we need to embrace but gets turned into hysteria.

On this we are agreed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:22:18 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)

Our economic model is a total mess. We should be looking at decreasing inequality still further with our taxation regmie, not making it worse.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.


Language is so important here. FF's manifesto didn't cause the worldwide recession. The policies they implemented left the country badly exposed to this recession. Typically in this country we spend "when we have it" and cut when we don't - the exact opposite of what public policy should be.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 02:42:01 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.


You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on January 23, 2020, 02:42:48 PM
Martin is going to be on a sticky wicket attacking the Government on their record since 2016 .
He had the Government in the palm of his hand and could have forced them to take action on anything he or FF were "concerned" about.
SF sound like the infamous FF manifesto of 1977 which gave us the massive 1980s recession- increase spending and reduce taxes.


Language is so important here. FF's manifesto didn't cause the worldwide recession. The policies they implemented left the country badly exposed to this recession. Typically in this country we spend "when we have it" and cut when we don't - the exact opposite of what public policy should be.

Replace "we" with "Fianna Fail" and you're about right.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.


You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.

Any better retort than ad hominem insult? Thought not.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dec on January 23, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
but my hope is for a left alliance of SF/Green/Lab/SD/PbP

The only way you will ever get that is if the left parties refuse to go into coalition with FG or FF
However I think if FG or FF get close to a majority then either Labour or the Greens (or both) will end up in coalition.

Force a FG/FF coalition and then run as a proper left alternative against them next time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dec on January 23, 2020, 02:47:50 PM
We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units,

Is there a law or regulation that prevents that at the moment?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 02:59:15 PM
We have to be like New York and start allowing high rise rental units,

Is there a law or regulation that prevents that at the moment?

There's height limitations in Dublin, also concerns about the impact on the skyline.
As a country too we also have an obsession with home ownership - which is old, legacy thinking.
https://www.economist.com/leaders/2020/01/16/home-ownership-is-the-wests-biggest-economic-policy-mistake
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 23, 2020, 03:07:37 PM
[Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

They did tender for it, only one company remained in the tender process.
Mind you, what they were trying to do was bollix.

Quote
It's bad when Varadkar is more republican than Martin.

Martin is a bit slithery, but you know rightly that he would love  to the FF leader who united  the country.

He is the most repulsive snake of free state partitionism.

Do they still call themselves the Republican Party? Micheal Martin is more partitionist than most in FG and that takes some doing.

Is it not a bit obscene that Pat Kenny provided both Leo and Micheal with an opportunity to tear into Sinn Féin when SF weren't allowed to be there to defend themselves? Surely this is fundamentally wrong?
It probably is but the tv heads decided to have a presidential style head to head between Martin and Varadker because one of them is going to be the next Taoiseach.
I imagine FF and FG would both like to have Mary Lou on the program as they’d both tear into her and her policies.
That’s one thing  they would agree on without a doubt. While they may dislike each other, they both fear the Shinners.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 23, 2020, 04:27:55 PM
http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp (http://www.msn.com/en-ie/money/news/taxes-stem-irelands-rising-inequality-claims-esri/ar-BBZeLCm?ocid=ientp)



Twenty-something leftie civil servant in "no tax cuts for coping families!" shocker.


You're a gas ticket! So naive and clueless.

Any better retort than ad hominem insult? Thought not.


Don't be getting on your high horse when you made ridiculous inaccurate assumptions about me initially.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 23, 2020, 04:30:38 PM
Don't be getting on your high horse when you made ridiculous inaccurate assumptions about me initially.

Bitterness is not an argument.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 05:03:02 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 23, 2020, 05:55:42 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 05:59:58 PM
If there is publicly owned land available for 100,000 houses why not use 3 quarters of it for affordable houses for sale at cost prices. Have clawbacks etc by all means.
Now if put to tender how much would it cost per house for say 100 no frills houses on e.g an 8 acre site? No VAT as purchaser will be paying that on the finished product.
The other quarter can be used for social and/or tenant purchase houses.

One way or the other the new Government has to seriously and in workable practical manner address the housing issue instead of hiding behind an ideology.
Most young people who get up early in the morning or indeed work all sorts of unsocial hours cannot afford to buy a house, cannot afford to rent a flat or house, cannot get the deposit required together, or can't get a high enough mortgage to afford housing where the jobs are.
The FG "average income" of 80k per person can but most young people are lucky to be earning half that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 23, 2020, 06:54:47 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 07:04:58 PM
well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

That's the whole point, isn't it, after that time you have somewhere to live!

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 23, 2020, 07:11:19 PM
Looks like Shinners to take Pringle's seat i nDún na nGall de réir pobal breith déanta ag TG4.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2020, 07:13:09 PM
Looks like Shinners to take Pringle's seat i nDún na nGall de réir pobal breith déanta ag TG4.

I note to that Peter Casey gets feck all, which has to be good thing on balance.


Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 23, 2020, 07:48:34 PM
Is there a massive demand for housing outside of Dublin (and its commuter towns)?

Surely the questions should be along the lines of:

1. Is the population of Ireland rising so quickly that there is a shortage of space?
   1.(a) If not, is it that external investors are pricing the indigenous people out of houses?
      1.(a)(i) If so, then introduce laws that make foreign holding of rental property in Ireland prohibitively expensive for the prospective landlord.
      1.(a)(ii) If not, then goto Q2
   1.(b) If yes, housing density within the cities needs to increase.

2. Is the demand rising uniformly across the country or is it concentrated in certain areas (i.e. Dublin)?
   2.(a)If uniform, then the number of new builds need to increase
   2.(b)If concentrated, then what can be done to more evenly spread demand around the country? Tax incentives? Better infrastructure? Education campuses?


Its not the "price of rent" or "price of housing" you need to tackle with some bullsh|t simpleton law that limits the price of X or Y - its the reasons behind the change.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 23, 2020, 11:25:23 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

The European model of renting for life is okay so long as pensions are geared to allow people to afford to pay rent when they finish working. Currently, that's not possible for most pensioners in Ireland
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 24, 2020, 12:30:05 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Applesisapples on January 24, 2020, 08:46:23 AM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.
No you are not, affordable housing has to be built to a different spec/finish the cost only goes on to the developer (if there is any) the remaining houses are sold at what the market dictates. If you don't do this then people on lower incomes will never be able to afford housing. Good to see BCC is going this way. It is a policy very successfully deployed in GB.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 24, 2020, 09:43:41 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.

Is he?

Who's running SF now? Ted Howell?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on January 24, 2020, 10:10:26 AM
Reunification is coming (even if Leo and FG don't like it) - SF will be central to that along with others - they deserve their place on the debate.

The Island will prosper in the long run - sure there will be some possible economic downside in the short term - however EU and UK money could offset some of this. So anyone with children - if you want the best for them and their children reunification is what that looks like and with that goes accepting the fact that SF are a main political party north and south.

SF nothing more than a protest vote. Fringe party at best. Left wing communists who if we're let anywhere near the fiscal leavers would bankrupt the country for years.

Who's the SDLP canvassing for this election?

Eastwood's Fine Failure or Durkan's Fine Gael?  Both are two sides of the same coin!!


Ironic people talking about the economy and running the country when the children's hospital will be approx. £200 million, maybe more when completed, after what was the original cost - someone fill that figure in for me.

Oh yeah, they are great at economics alright.

Don't get me started on rolling out the broadband across the country - sure best way would be to tender for it.  Oh no, we'll just offer it to one company for a bankload of money...no tendering required.  Great economic sense alright.

No lectures please on the economic ability of the big two.

Whatever. At least you can guarantee it will be electable and accountable politicians taking decisions. Not a bundle of provisionals in the Felons club.
SF don't operate like any normal political party. Those who are elected in SF aren't allowed to take decisions. That's not democracy.

No answer to who the SDLP is backing this election then?

Is it F Failure's Durkan of FF's Michael 'sit on the fence' Martin?

By the way, how's Colum getting on with Brexit? - has he stopped it yet? I'm tired waiting on the update.

He's running Stormont from London after giving out to previous leaders that this shouldn't be the case.

Is he?

Who's running SF now? Ted Howell?

All joking aside, Trailer. Who do you vote for in the six counties, since you believe that voting for anyone other than the 'big two' parties in an election is just a waste and "a protest vote"?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 10:23:07 AM
well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.

When owning over a lifetime, you pay the cost of your accommodation including its maintenance, and a premium to the mortgage financier in the form of bank interest, the latter which declines over time as the mortgage is repaid.

When renting over a lifetime, you pay the cost of your accommodation including its maintenance, plus a risk premium to the owner, plus their mortgage costs, plus the income tax that the State will levy on them in respect of the rents you pay to them.

This tax wedge makes renting a far more expensive option in the long run.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 10:31:43 AM
Is there a massive demand for housing outside of Dublin (and its commuter towns)?

Surely the questions should be along the lines of:

1. Is the population of Ireland rising so quickly that there is a shortage of space?
   1.(a) If not, is it that external investors are pricing the indigenous people out of houses?
      1.(a)(i) If so, then introduce laws that make foreign holding of rental property in Ireland prohibitively expensive for the prospective landlord.
      1.(a)(ii) If not, then goto Q2
   1.(b) If yes, housing density within the cities needs to increase.

2. Is the demand rising uniformly across the country or is it concentrated in certain areas (i.e. Dublin)?
   2.(a)If uniform, then the number of new builds need to increase
   2.(b)If concentrated, then what can be done to more evenly spread demand around the country? Tax incentives? Better infrastructure? Education campuses?


Its not the "price of rent" or "price of housing" you need to tackle with some bullsh|t simpleton law that limits the price of X or Y - its the reasons behind the change.

Good questions well put.

Here's what I see.

- The population has increased reasonably dramatically.

- At the same time, the quality of some of the older housing stock (much of it built more than 40/50 years ago) has deteriorated beyond usefulness. For example the old Ballymun flats were uninhabitable and had to be knocked, so their replacement didn't add to the housing stock.

- There has been nearly no building in the last decade.

So the overall stock of housing per capita has plummeted.

And the regional development has been concentrated in the large urban areas. For example in the West, nobody wants to go to college in Belmullet or Ballina so Galway ends up with both a university and an IT. And the large employers will set up in Galway because that's where the graduates are. How to address this without doing harm is a big question.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don’t know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in ‘91, I’d still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don’t think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 10:57:57 AM
Certainly does in Ireland anyway plus renters have no security of tenure unless in Council housing.
That Ir£30k Lar - what multiple of your annual pay was that?
In those Continental Countries where renting is the norm what would the average rent per month be?
What sort of tenure have the renters?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on January 24, 2020, 11:33:39 AM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don’t know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in ‘91, I’d still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don’t think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 24, 2020, 12:12:27 PM
And the regional development has been concentrated in the large urban areas. For example in the West, nobody wants to go to college in Belmullet or Ballina so Galway ends up with both a university and an IT. And the large employers will set up in Galway because that's where the graduates are. How to address this without doing harm is a big question.

Yeah, its a tricky problem. Students will want the social life, so need a population centre - thats pretty much set in stone.

Businesses all need good access to workers - not all businesses need good (physical) access to customers (i.e. IT).
I suppose the questions then could become:
- do the workers need to live on the doorstep of work?
- do workers move to where work is located?
- what is acceptable commute time?
- does it change between car*, train, tram & walk? (*quality of road?)
- do the offices need to be big & few, or can they be small and many (distributed)?
- can workers work remotely?
- can workers for multiple end-employers share a common office space?


Using Galway as an example case - incentives to set up offices in the likes of Ennis or Athenry - or at least along the M6 or M18 corridors might help. But that might be too simple.

The govt maybe should look at a corporation tax scheme (for non manufacturing operations) that is a function of headcount (above a threshold - say 50 employees) and the density of that headcount per county (that the business has offices in). The more distributed you are below a concentration threshold, the lower your CT. The higher your concentration of employees per county above the threshold, the higher your CT.

Wouldn't be too difficult to administer as the headcount of organisations is relatively easy to keep track of - spot checks of offices can be done to ensure that people are working where the companies say they are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 12:13:27 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don’t know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in ‘91, I’d still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don’t think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.

But you don't get a lifetime of debt, you get 20 or 25 years of debt. Then you own the house outright.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 12:21:54 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 12:27:38 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Debate away but, barring a major SF breakthrough, they're unlikely to have 40 seats between them. We are where we are.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 12:41:33 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

That coalition only had 41 seats by the end of the last Dáil. 80 is needed for a majority. FF & FG currently have 92 between them and there's ~20 independents so FF / FG combined tally would need to fall to ~60 to make such a coalition viable. There'd need to be a pre-election left voting pact to make any real inroads there
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on January 24, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Feck the left. Nothing to offer. Bad and all as Brexit/BoJo in the UK was, the electorate still chose them over Labour.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 01:12:23 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 01:25:27 PM
Way to approach this is by making planning consents conditional on 20% affordable housing.

Absolutely not, this is the kind of wrong thinking that has country the way it is.
If you have this kind of 20% condition then you are putting the cost of that housing on the other 80% who are people not much different than the lucky few who get the affordable housing.

If public housing is desireable then every taxpayer should contribute to it, not just those buying their first house who are less well able to fund it.

While I understand that view, in the case of cities like Dublin you need the artists, the wait staff, those who provide various services, to be able to live there otherwise you force on them a poor quality of life and the city loses too. I think if we can build more rental high rises (and sales), it’s for the better of society if you allocate a certain percentage to low income and means test the applications. I think rent freeze is a terrible and populist idea by Sinn Fein and instead what should be done is a certain amount of rent stabilised apartments like they do in New York. As I said in previous posts we need to partner better with good property developers to solve this. Ged rid of obsession with owning. Put the bitteen of money in some index funds and you will get a far better return instead of the Mammy Philosophy of you need to own a home.

well said, people are obsessed with getting a mortgage. all that does is make you a slave to the bank for 30 years, liable for all the bills, maintenance, upkeep, etc. After that time you will be lucky to break even with all the interest paid, but you still need somewhere to live. Pay rent monthly and grow your money smartly in other areas, pay into your pension etc. Plus if you rent you can move anywhere quickly if you want to for work, family etc. A house/ apt is a noose that strangles young people and makes solicitors, estate agents and property funds rich.
Based on personal experience, I disagree completely.
I bought a modest enough 3 bed semi in Dublin 5 back in 1991. It cost 30,000 punts and was just about at the top end of my budget. However, being in Dublin 5, it was centrally located and I knew it would prove a worthwhile investment. It was ideal as a small family unit with plenty of space front and back and kids could run around without imposing on neighbours to any great extent.
It was an average house in an average residential area but today the asking price for houses in this part of Dublin is between €450,000 and €500,000 and the likelihood is that prices will keep rising.
I own the house, lock, stock and barrel. (Whatever that means!)
We had a temporary glitch in the increase of house prices during the last recession but the trend is inexorably upwards. Prices are rising again. With the debatable exception of gold, I don’t know of any other commodity that can increase in value as quickly.
If I had opted for rented accommodation back in ‘91, I’d still be paying rent, dead money, to some third party. I don’t think one needs a degree in rocket science to figure that the rental costs since then would far exceed the amount of mortgage repayments I paid over 20 years. My mortgage repayments ended after 20 years whereas rental payments last for as long as I would be a resident in a rented property.
By any metric you care to mention, home ownership trumps rented accommodation.

30 years ago this was a very different market, it is only one example, are you telling me that if i bought your house now for 450k, in 30 years it will be worth 7 million, complete nonsense. There are many stories of people getting lucky in the market, that's all it is, luck. The majority now are being sucked in by the banks to a lifetime of debt, the sad thing is that we do this willingly.
True, we had a different market back in ‘91 but my case was not an isolated instance. It was pretty much the norm and, in any event, the comparison then and now is perfectly valid.
The money one pays over the lifetime of a mortgage will represent money well spent when compared to a lifetime paying rent to make somebody else rich.
You don’t appear to grasp that there is a double whammy involved when you pay rent vs owning your own home. In general terms, the price of property keeps rising and so does the rent- at least in keeping with inflation. The tenant doesn’t benefit in either event but the landlord has the best of both worlds. I may have paid a mortgage but I had the steady increase in assets to balance this.
Today, I have €500.000 in reserve and my home is mine to live in or dispose of as I set fit.
If I rented living accommodation I would have neither now.
In any event, if my house should ever be worth 7 million, what do you think the rent for something similar would be or do you think rental prices exist in a time warp?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 24, 2020, 01:46:32 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 02:49:32 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
;D ;D
Extremely well put!
We  don't have a left here. At least a left that have evolved practical strategies and that lives in the real world. In common or garden English, I cannot ever recall a manifesto from any leftie party that was taken seriously by the business world.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 03:04:36 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."

Tbf, they didn't have the numbers to go into govt. SF were ruled out by both FG and FF

I think the left needs to give the country a proposal for a non-FG/FF govt pre-election if they are ever to stand a chance of breaking the traditional setup.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 24, 2020, 03:12:19 PM
I think the left needs to give the country a proposal for a non-FG/FF govt pre-election if they are ever to stand a chance of breaking the traditional setup.

They have no interest in doing that. They prefer to split into a lot of small parties, each claiming separate party funding allowances from the State. The political equivalent of the farmers' dole.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 24, 2020, 03:20:59 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto? How many of those parties want to be in government. When FG and Labour got a shellacking from the electorate in last election - who showed leadership and tried to form an alternative government? Instead they let FG form a minority gov and complained at FF for keeping them in power... without ever facing the fact that no one tried to form an alternative and put the country before party. The problem with a lot of those parties is that they are the political equivalent of "howld me back lads before I kill the bollocks."
;D ;D
Extremely well put!
We  don't have a left here. At least a left that have evolved practical strategies and that lives in the real world. In common or garden English, I cannot ever recall a manifesto from any leftie party that was taken seriously by the business world.


Clearly confirming our country is run for the business world. Exactly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 04:33:19 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.

You seem to have a bit of tunnel vision here, FF/FG promise the sun, moon and stars and have a proven track record in not only failing to deliver on those promises but plunging the state into crisis after crisis with their policies and decision making. It's beyond bizarre to have a bee in your bonnet about SF not delivering when the establishment parties never have and have actually reneged on many of their election promises.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 04:45:27 PM
The options in this thread are depressing, and echo the media spin. Why does the government have to involve one of FFG? If you take the 'left' as SF, Greens, Labour, SD, PBP,  I4C and Solidarity, thats a higher poll than FFG. Heaven forbid that a leftist coalition be considered or debated.

Why don't the left show leadership, and go to the country with a joint manifesto?
Where is FFG's joint manifesto?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 05:25:59 PM
Another glossy but of fiction?
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/six-key-policy-areas-in-fine-gaels-election-manifesto-38892247.html

Wonder they didn't start a few of those things while they were in power  ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 06:30:49 PM
Dont think SF has issued a manifesto* yet but their candidate in Roscommon(most of)/Galway says they'll hire 2,500 Nurses/midwives, open 1,500 new beds, hire an additional 1,000 doctors/consultants and provide 12 million extra home help hours over 5 years.
That would be lovely but she didn't mention how it will be paid for or who will pay for it, especially as they are against the USC and Property tax.

* As no party will form a Government on their own those things are meaningless shiny booklets.

You seem to have a bit of tunnel vision here, FF/FG promise the sun, moon and stars and have a proven track record in not only failing to deliver on those promises but plunging the state into crisis after crisis with their policies and decision making. It's beyond bizarre to have a bee in your bonnet about SF not delivering when the establishment parties never have and have actually reneged on many of their election promises.

And tbe outrage when I suggest there is a plan b
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:36:37 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 24, 2020, 07:52:02 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 07:53:27 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on January 24, 2020, 08:22:14 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.

The reason parties practise auction politics is because is works, people are willing to believe things that are literally unbelievable
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 24, 2020, 10:09:30 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 24, 2020, 10:28:26 PM
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new

The issue is not what whose polices were in the past, but what they are now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 24, 2020, 10:31:56 PM
The whole thing has turned into an auction, free money for this, free money for that. Zero interest in fixing the source of the problems. Did we learn nothing from the past?

The fact FF are on the verge of seizing powe again is an emphatic no to that question.

Other parties are just as keen on the auction as FF, the latter may well have learned something from the past.

The reason parties practise auction politics is because is works, people are willing to believe things that are literally unbelievable
There's nowt as queer as folks, as they say  in Yorkshire.
Politicians by and large are elected by the people and therefore they mirror the interests of those who elect them.  If they didn't they would never get re-elected.. That's a harsh, unpalatable fact but it is undeniable and illogical as well.
I don't know what the mass herd instinct is but people who may be rational, balanced individuals on most matters that concern them tend to leave reality behind when they head for the polling booths.
FF are back again, re-packaged and re-branded and seem likely to return to power again after banjaxing the economy less than a decade ago. FG, on the other hand, seem hell bent on proving the are just as inept and inefficient as FF ever was and have spent the last 8 years trying to hammer this home and still has a realistic chance of being given the opportunity to continue making a complete and utter bills of the country’s finances and few, if any, of the general public seem to notice never mind object.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 24, 2020, 11:51:36 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2020, 01:58:36 PM
But FF destroyed the country doing it. Nobody wants them back in, but the other arse cheek have to go. Yet as we see on here, nobody willing to take a plunge on something new

The issue is not what whose polices were in the past, but what they are now.
The issue is which party understands what is going on now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Billys Boots on January 27, 2020, 09:00:51 AM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

In a nutshell.  Post of the month.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 27, 2020, 09:31:11 AM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

In a nutshell.  Post of the month.


Paddy's clearly an idiot so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 27, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 27, 2020, 05:19:54 PM
Indeed Lar.
Paddy wants Scandinavian public services and Cayman Island taxes and since 1977 has voted for Politicians who say we can have both.

One of the most insightful things I've read in a long time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on January 27, 2020, 05:21:55 PM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?

It would probably fly if the public were better informed about how things work. They should be teaching basic economics and civics in school from a young age, you'd probably see better governments getting elected.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 27, 2020, 08:18:40 PM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 27, 2020, 08:45:54 PM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

The usual magic money tree, tax someone else.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: magpie seanie on January 27, 2020, 09:38:53 PM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?


Depends how credible you and your plans are. I think most people would be happy to pay their taxes if we got the public services we require/deserve.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 27, 2020, 10:09:56 PM
How many votes would you get if you said " No Tax Cuts" and everyone to pay 5% of their income to provide a comprehensive public health system with no waiting lists?
Ask the Soc Dems and PBP
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 08:05:27 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2020, 08:25:56 AM
We need to collect a bit of corporation tax off a few multi billion dollar companies and banks who are located within the state

The usual magic money tree, tax someone else.
5% of people own 40% of everything
Tax land hoarding
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 08:57:20 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Captain Scarlet on January 28, 2020, 09:24:29 AM
Alan Dillon shot some of his ad on GAA property...
https://twitter.com/Alan_Dillon/status/1222073097135775745?s=19

That's not allowed I thought?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: highorlow on January 28, 2020, 10:06:36 AM
Old footage is probably allowed. Likely recorded before he became a candidate.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 10:07:06 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett
Does that mean they will  now be Taoiseach and Tánaiste?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 10:12:39 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Also, given SF's surge and Mary Lou doing well last night, watch now from a crank up from the media to discredit SF. Already we had the times putting out some nonsense yesterday and today Peadar Tobin (a terrorist apologiser to the Indo 4 years ago) is now front page news attacking them. I hope voters see this for what it is.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 28, 2020, 10:13:35 AM
Old footage is probably allowed. Likely recorded before he became a candidate.

It's clearly current. He's been a candidate for more than a year now.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 28, 2020, 10:15:20 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Agree on all counts. Shortall was out of her depth. She's no more a party leader than Michael Healy Rae. Howlin's hour is long gone.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 28, 2020, 10:25:30 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 28, 2020, 10:35:35 AM
Who "won" last night's debate?

Mary Lou and Richard Boyd Barrett

Agreed.

For me Varadkar boxed clever and may not have won but didnt really do himself any damage. Martin was poor I thought, he is not Taoiseach material. Was disappointed with Shortall, seemed almost disinterested. Howlin tried hard but I think labour lack credibility with the left at the moment.

Also, given SF's surge and Mary Lou doing well last night, watch now from a crank up from the media to discredit SF. Already we had the times putting out some nonsense yesterday and today Peadar Tobin (a terrorist apologiser to the Indo 4 years ago) is now front page news attacking them. I hope voters see this for what it is.

Hopefully he will retain his seat in the face of the exclusion afforded to him, be tough though, SF are shipping in minibuses  from all over to Meath to ensure he is silenced forever.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 11:04:40 AM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Good old Indo, embarrassing themselves yet again. How anyone could listen to Martin and think he won and/or would make a good Taoiseach - well basically you would just have to be die hard Finna Failer.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:07:43 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How’s that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I’m sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 12:13:19 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How’s that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I’m sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 28, 2020, 12:49:45 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How’s that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I’m sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Was referring to SF calling other party leaders posh boys when one is the son of a bus driver and the other immigrants? Education nothing to do with it so long as you don’t typecast others when you yourself are well heeled. And less of the personal insults. The relation between IRA, some members of Sinn Fein and some drug gangs in Ireland is public domain if you do some research. People have a right to be concerned that people who cheered the killers of Garda at Ard Dheis are making decisions for government that could be in charge of Gardai and future of SCC.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 12:59:19 PM
Arra Ros sure doesn't everyone, except you, know that Sinn Féin are always right about everything all the time.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 28, 2020, 01:07:54 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How’s that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I’m sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Well to a degree it has when Ógra Shinn Féin put out on their official Twitter last night "Good on ML putting the manner on the posh boys". Also  SF cant cry about their treatment and not expect the Toibin story to get coverage. Mary Lou did not perform well last night for a leader in opposition she should have all the aces, put flattered to deceive, no concrete answers, just "well what about this and that" . She talks about problems wit no real solutions. Anyone can say lets build 100k houses

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 28, 2020, 01:10:51 PM
All shite. Private school educated Mary Lou acting all working class always good for a laugh. Howlin interrupts and saves her from the hard questions on SCC. How’s that ex councilor who was big buddies with Hutch gang doing these days? I’m sure the AC will have their backs given they supplied them with the weapons.

Whats where she got educated with got to do with her empathy or dedication for the working class? Check your history if you think that's a barrier.

Hard questions on SCC? That is the greatest load of shite I ever heard coming from a national paper and was clearly a set up with FF & FG, just like RTE trying to get SF out of the debates, just like the Indo wheeling out Tobin. You can dislike SF and their policies as is your right but if you cannot see through what is happening in the media palling up to the two big cash cow parties then you are simply stupid.

Was referring to SF calling other party leaders posh boys when one is the son of a bus driver and the other immigrants? Education nothing to do with it so long as you don’t typecast others when you yourself are well heeled. And less of the personal insults. The relation between IRA, some members of Sinn Fein and some drug gangs in Ireland is public domain if you do some research. People have a right to be concerned that people who cheered the killers of Garda at Ard Dheis are making decisions for government that could be in charge of Gardai and future of SCC.

What are SF as a party links to the drug gangs. If you are talking about 1 bad apple in a party then that is hardly a reflection on the whole party. For balance I would like to understand the links between FF and FG to big business, lobby groups, groups that avoid tax, media groups etc. Where are our gallant independent media to remind us of those - you know the white collar crime that no one gets held accountable for?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 03:10:44 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 28, 2020, 03:34:26 PM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Good old Indo, embarrassing themselves yet again. How anyone could listen to Martin and think he won and/or would make a good Taoiseach - well basically you would just have to be die hard Finna Failer.
The Indo have yet to publish a poll. I hear a rumour that they don't like the polls but the polling company wont jigger it to be more indo friendly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on January 28, 2020, 03:42:05 PM
According to the Indo this morning, Martiin was the clear winner, (7/10) followed by Mary Lou. (6/10)
Leo (5/10) comes next with Howlin and Boyd Barrett both on 4/10, Ryan on 3/10 and Shortall on 2/10.

Honestly don't know how anybody could claim that Micheal Martin was the winner. His strength is normally his debating skills but he definitely didn't give a good performance last night. I thought Boyd Barrett was much better than 4/10. Mary Lou produced plenty of bluster but no real substance and I'm not sure she outlined any credible plan to solve the housing crisis. Bizarre that the debate barely covered the crisis in health. Overall, I don't really see how the debate would sway your opinion to vote in any manner. I think there will be a clear establishment (FG/FF) v anti establishment (others) split in the voting patterns. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 04:25:10 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2020, 04:55:05 PM
It is once again clear that SF have zero interest in a United Ireland. In the debate, Varadkar noted that SF had voted for he pension age in NI should be 66 while advocating reducing it to 65 in the 26 counties.
Unification has now become an economic issue as much as anything, yet SF keep cranking up public expenditure in a way that makes unification unaffordable.

As for Martin, he didn't do great but he only had to ensure that he didn't trip up. People believe that FF will build more houses than FG without taxing the bejaysus out of everyone and that alone will improve their position.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 05:04:08 PM
How are FF and FG, now that they've suddenly lurched to the left, going to pay for the 50k/60k Social Houses (€10Bn/€12Bn)?
How many did the build since May 2016 when they started their Governing arrangement together?
Meanwhile the Shinners are going to build 100,000 houses for €6.5Bn . That's €65k per house by my maths.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 28, 2020, 05:44:16 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.

That's what you're telling us but it's easy to see what's behind the veil and that's an establishment shill who will vote for some self serving FF/FG regardless of ideology/policy/reform.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 28, 2020, 05:48:21 PM
How are FF and FG, now that they've suddenly lurched to the left, going to pay for the 50k/60k Social Houses (€10Bn/€12Bn)?
How many did the build since May 2016 when they started their Governing arrangement together?
Meanwhile the Shinners are going to build 100,000 houses for €6.5Bn . That's €65k per house by my maths.

All of these plans rely on using "state owned land" and assigning it no value. Some of these houses will be sold to favoured people for construction cost only.
The problem with this is you end up with no land and no real solution to the general problem. This may be justified in the short term but it does not put the housing market on a long term basis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 28, 2020, 05:54:14 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.

Varadkar did well playing the quiet card alright.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 28, 2020, 05:56:06 PM
Didn't think Mary Lou was great last night, few big speeches but little in the way of policy which let her down. She did land a few knockout blows to Martin though who had a car crash night.

Thought Varadkar was the real winner, Boyd Barrett did well too.

Rossfan is one of those lads who is a silent FF/FG voter. He will tell everyone he doesn't vote for them but will be ticking their box as soon as he gets into the voting hall. Bizarrely he only seems to criticise SF when the establishment parties have utterly decimated his own state with their greed and self-interest.

You'd have to be some simpleton to vote FF.
Listen buck you have no idea who I'm going to vote for so less of the immature stereotyping.
I'll be giving Greens 1, Fitzmaurice 2, Naughten 3, SDP 4 and the rest can take a running jump at themselves.

That's what you're telling us but it's easy to see what's behind the veil and that's an establishment shill who will vote for some self serving FF/FG regardless of ideology/policy/reform.
Will you stop making a bigger clown of yourself than you already have been doing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 29, 2020, 12:43:19 AM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

All too easy to blame FF, it is always someone else's fault. FF did precipitate a boom, egged on by the other parties, and this  collapsed. During the boom, they increased expenditure, but things like dole and non-contributory pensions increased more than public pay. Where FF caused harm was in not clearly linking the pay to that required for the job, so clerks got generous increases and specialists even then fell behind the private sector. The pay was reduced, FG did not chose to restore it based on the job market but rather on political gameplaying, so we now do not have enough doctors and teachers because it was not restored when the rest of the economy and rents etc are much higher than 12 years ago.  FG did even remotely attempt a public pay policy, other than what seemed expedient.

Quote
Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

I wouldn't blame them for the cervical thing especially, but the other two were needless. But apart from that they sold property to vulture funds who put people out and so on the housing list, when the government could just have turned the property into a council house in the first place. They singularly failed to plan for anything, only acting when the crisis arose. So they wait until trains are a health and safety problem and then order some carriages, which take 2 years to arrive. You have patients staying hospital beds because the doctors can't get them a MRI scan.

Quote
It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.

FF fell victim to hubris, now FG has, all you can do is swap them to remind them that they have  to actually do their job.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:55:29 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trailer on January 29, 2020, 07:23:56 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 10:42:48 AM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.

You missed quite a few bars. Irish Water, Garda corruption, running down the military, the retirement age ballsup, swing gate, the RIC debacle, rural broadband, vote gate and so on.

You cant say pension liabilities restrict capital spending when they are building the 6th most expensive building ever, and by a significant distance the worlds most expensive public building.

Yes, FF handed them a bag of shite, but they spilled it everywhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 11:32:21 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 11:34:27 AM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying

They first 3 did in 1987, and undid a 10-year recession that at the time seemed like a depression.

The economic system isn't dying either.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 29, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Has standards of living of posters from the 26 counties not improved during the time FG has been in power? Mine certainly has. I think Ireland is a great place to live and offers great opportunities.

My kids are in a Deis school, but they work hard and the teachers work hard to help them. They have a great opportunity to go to third level and ultimately give themselves the best chance to have good careers. It's up to them as to what they can achieve, as it should be.

Health system is the biggest worry, but FG are committed to Slaintecare and that looks to me to be the best alternative.

Putting our economic strategy in the hands of SF could be catastrophic. The economy is being well managed. We need to get more growth outside of Dublin, and that is happening to a degree and there are thriving towns up and down the country. But more to do to widen the spread.

My biggest problem with my vote is I don't care for either of the FG candidates in my constituency. But I am confident Varadker and Coveney are the best two people around to lead our country.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 12:00:31 PM
FF followed the 'if I have money I'll spend it' philosophy of McCreevy and used boom receipts to pay for general Govt spending. That model collapsed in 2008 and FF looked really stupid plus the losses inflicted on the public via the cuts necessary to get things back to a state of equilibrium were not forgiven.

FG are surfing the waves of another boom that will also collapse. If they are in Government when it happens they will be fucked.
We need a new economic system.

Quite possibly. Or just personal responsibility and accountability.

Personal responsibility
Accountability
Budgeting
Getting up early
Mowing the lawn
Being romantic
2 hands on the hurl
Checking the fuel gauge

These are all a great bunch of lads but they won't fix the country when the economic system is dying

They first 3 did in 1987, and undid a 10-year recession that at the time seemed like a depression.

The economic system isn't dying either.

The gold price and interest rates say that it is
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 29, 2020, 12:04:11 PM
Leo and Simon look the part when compared to Mícheál Martin and whoever FF's Deputy Leader might be.
The Sláintecare programme needs lots of €€€€s to implement and I havent seen any serious proposal as to where this will come from (apart from the fairytale manifestos issued over the last week or so).
Regional development urgently required in the BMW and again I'm not hearing any serious proposals for this.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 29, 2020, 03:05:17 PM
I think it's a fallacy that FG have destroyed the state. If you look at the two biggest issues it's housing and health both of which are direct hangovers from the FF administration of the 00's. FF precipitated a property bubble and subsequent economic collapse, they also doled out unsustainable contracts to the public sector and in pensions which have saddled the state with a public expenditure bill that saps necessary investment in capital projects.

Bar the children's hospital and broadband plan I can't think of many more complete balls-up they've directly caused. I'll give them a bit of a pass on cervical check as 1) it was a yank lab that was missing most of the samples and 2) the running of cervical check was really up to the HSE and it was an screening program put in place before their time in office.

It's ironic FF are sticking the boot into FG for not cleaning up the messes caused by FF and by doing so are likely to return to power and f**k up more stuff for FG to clean up the next time they're in office.
I could well go along with what you are saying but, as always, the devil is in the detail. All elections between ‘97 and 2011 were characterised by lavish promises from all parties as each tried to outdo the others in trying to get their snouts into the gravy trough and, in this regard, FG stood man to man with FF.
FG’s manifesto was just as profligate as FF’s in 2007 and as one prominent FG character confided to me, he often woke up sweating when he was dreaming about what might have happened if his side had actually won that one.
Good luck and a few thousand votes saved FG from Armageddon.
As I look at the manifestos of the big two, I can see history repeating itself.
I see hope for the future as the electorate, by and large, appears to be sick of the auction politicking of the main parties but I am worried because there appears to be no viable alternative.
And while I’m at it, another hoary old lie needs to be put to highlighted. FG would love to be regarded as the guardians of the public good, always ready to answer the call of duty and prepared to step in and clean up the mess caused by the profligacy of successive FF administrations.
If that was indeed the case, the Irish electorate must have always been a truly ungrateful shower of hoors because every FG/Lab coalition got tossed out first chance they got with the exception of 2016  where Enda became the first Blue Shirt to serve two successive terms as Taoiseach.
I can’t see Leo becoming the second one but I can’t help feeling that Coveney is more of a statesman than  anyone else in FG, FF or indeed any other party.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 29, 2020, 03:28:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 29, 2020, 04:04:46 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There’s no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don’t realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it’s ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we’ve ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won’t see much difference between that lot).
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 04:09:58 PM
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/election-2020/ff-and-fg-attack-dangerous-sinn-fein-pledges-on-economy-38905911.html

"FF attack dangerous pledges on economy" is a bit rich
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 04:11:07 PM
Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future.

Both are a waste of money. The broadband will be to internet connectivity what CIE is to public transport. The children's hospital will deliver a dozen or two extra beds at astronomical cost.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 04:16:38 PM
Has standards of living of posters from the 26 counties not improved during the time FG has been in power? Mine certainly has. I think Ireland is a great place to live and offers great opportunities.

My kids are in a Deis school, but they work hard and the teachers work hard to help them. They have a great opportunity to go to third level and ultimately give themselves the best chance to have good careers. It's up to them as to what they can achieve, as it should be.

Health system is the biggest worry, but FG are committed to Slaintecare and that looks to me to be the best alternative.

Putting our economic strategy in the hands of SF could be catastrophic. The economy is being well managed. We need to get more growth outside of Dublin, and that is happening to a degree and there are thriving towns up and down the country. But more to do to widen the spread.

My biggest problem with my vote is I don't care for either of the FG candidates in my constituency. But I am confident Varadker and Coveney are the best two people around to lead our country.

So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

The economic strategy is already catastrophic, the banks and large corporations are the guys who call the shots, the most damning indictment of FF/FG is the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems. How much state money is being received by private landlords and vulture funds each year in rent? They have let the rental market spiral out of control, the economy going well makes no impact as young couples and families with decent jobs cannot afford a roof over their head, it makes no difference to sick people who are dying as they can't get a hospital bed or are misdiagnosed by a health service not fit for purpose.

The policies of FF/FG have always been to benefit the elite in society, there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis. They simply don't want to solve the housing crisis, the longer the housing crisis exists then the more it benefits the wealthy landlords and homeowners and the property developers. There are plenty of simple policies that could have tackled an out of control rental market and a shortage of supply in the last few years that weren't taken.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:01:08 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities and state bodies (one of which has made a shambles of the building of the children's hospital) are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year, and cant afford to anyway, so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests (including the staff) who have done well out of it.

there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 05:04:29 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:08:54 PM
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.

Not really, once you're in work, you're spending and sustaining further prosperity and employment. The 2009 recession here exposed that sharply.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 29, 2020, 05:27:08 PM
60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

How on earth do you work that out?!?!

Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:39:07 PM
Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.

Do you want an answer or do you not? I can answer you easily if you wish but if you've made up your mind already, I'd be only wasting my time.

Your call.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:40:06 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages.
It’s not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland’s  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.



 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 05:49:42 PM
It’s not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland’s  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.



Tasc is funded by Chuck Feeney's left-wing Atlantic Philanthropies, the EU, and the trade unions. Its reports will naturally blame employers and excuse featherbedding in the HSE and elsewhere.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 05:54:33 PM
It’s not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland’s  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.


Tasc is funded by Chuck Feeney's left-wing Atlantic Philanthropies, the EU, and the trade unions. Its reports will naturally blame employers and excuse featherbedding in the HSE and elsewhere.
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:01:12 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 06:21:42 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests including the staff, who have done well out of it.

there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.
Wages are a more important indicator of economic wellbeing than numbers in unemployment.
The UK has low unemployment but a high number of workers earning poor wages.
It’s not wages per se but purchasing capacity which is a more accurate indicator of economic well being and both FG and FF have similar weak effect on Ireland’s  inequality status, low trade union membership  and low levels of collective bargaining.
According to the very well researched tasc.ie annual report Inequality in Ireland  (Robert Sweeney), the labour market institutions are employer friendly. Though unemployment levels are reasonably low, Ireland has high levels of low pay, poverty and deprivation.



 
It is the same problem across the OECD. Corporate profits have increased at the expense of worker incomes. This has been going on for 40 years .
It can’t go on for much longer.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on January 29, 2020, 06:34:17 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on January 29, 2020, 06:49:10 PM



So what about the economy? What good is a booming economy when it is only the well healed that prosper from it.

With respect, when the numbers in employment are at an all time high, it's nonsense to say that only the well heeled are doing well from it.
the state of the housing and health sectors - privatise, privatise, privatise - they have created these problems.
The opposite is true. Housing and health are each in a shambles because the State in its wisdom has relied far too heavily on a dysfunctional public sector.

On housing, the FF/Green combo brought in measures a decade ago to basically stop private investment in the building of houses and apartments. The local authorities and state bodies (one of which has made a shambles of the building of the children's hospital) are both incapable of building the tens of thousands of homes that are needed each year, and cant afford to anyway, so hey presto we've a housing crisis that is now 8 years old and at the current rate of going will last another 20 years.

On health, the HSE has been a catastrophic failure from the day it was formed, 16 years ago and both the politicians and the management are afraid to take on the big vested interests (including the staff) who have done well out of it.

there are over 60 sitting FF/FG landlord TDs in the Dail who have vested interests when it comes to solving the housing crisis.

60 is not half enough. We need more people to invest in property, and I'm talking ordinary individual investors, not the conglomerates who are taking up the slack by buying up properties by the shedload. But government policy for the past decade has been all in the other direction.

That's just complete and utter nonsense. Employment might be thriving but there's a homelessness crisis, young people in good jobs with good wages simply cannot afford to buy houses and are being completely and utterly fleeced by a private rental market that has been brought about by government policy by FG/FF that shows no interest whatsoever in controlling the rental market.

Local authrorities are state bodies, who act under the policies implemented by government - if it is a case of them failing to meet the targets, then it's a failure of the government.

FF wrecked the state by selling off council houses into private ownership, it's the FF/FG way - privatise, privatise, privatise valuable resources to big business and vulture funds. Look at they utterly destroyed the health service, their policies have priced out the young people of home ownership and destroyed the health service.

The last part just proves you are on the wind up. The problem is the rental market, the problem is that people cannot afford to buy or rent in the current climate, it's to do with weak policy on rent control, it's to do with the stripping of state owned housing by the FF market. FF/FG are all about privitisation to the wealthy businessmen and vulture funds. Services such as housing and health should have been auctioned off to the private sector.


Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in Europe when it comes to healthcare access and a healthcare crisis exists exacerbates this
Dublin has the third highest residential rents in Europe, mortgage interest rates in Ireland are way above those in Europe and a homelessnes crisis exists due to this.

When these situations exist, and not only to they exist but they continue to get worse, a good economy is merely a sideshow. Wealthy inequality is growing under the policies of FF/FG and that's the aim of their policies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 06:50:36 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?

I have an issue with Tasc's bias and agenda (for example the supposition that inequality is an issue at all in this country). My earlier challenge stands.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 29, 2020, 06:51:59 PM
This report is very well researched and evidenced based.  The stats are unimpeachable.

But not biased? Show me a Tasc report anywhere that concludes that wages in any sector are too high.
Eh, is that a retort?   The report is about inequality in Ireland. Does the report have conclusions  based on its research? yes it does. They are evidenced based conclusions, well supported by indepth research done in other countries. Is there some particular conclusion you have an issue with?
It doesn't agree with his neo liberal right wing mind.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 07:03:59 PM
Employment might be thriving but there's a homelessness crisis, young people in good jobs with good wages simply cannot afford to buy houses and are being completely and utterly fleeced by a private rental market that has been brought about by government policy by FG/FF that shows no interest whatsoever in controlling the rental market.

No its been brought about by government and opposition consensus since 2009 that we no longer need any new houses or apartments to be built, even though the population was rising.  ::)

Local authrorities are state bodies, who act under the policies implemented by government - if it is a case of them failing to meet the targets, then it's a failure of the government.
Exactly, the government is incapable of building a children's hospital. How can it be trusted to build 50,000 houses or apartments every year?

FF wrecked the state by selling off council houses into private ownership, it's the FF/FG way - privatise, privatise, privatise valuable resources to big business and vulture funds.
The council houses were sold to their occupiers, mainly because the councils could no longer afford the considerable cost of maintaining and renewing them. There were no big property conglomerates in this country a decade ago.

Quote
Look at they utterly destroyed the health service, their policies have priced out the young people of home ownership and destroyed the health service.
Agreed, more failures of the State. The State that you want to take on even more responsibilities.

Quote
The last part just proves you are on the wind up.
It does not. You mightn't like what I am saying but I most certainly am not an any windup.
Quote
The problem is the rental market, the problem is that people cannot afford to buy or rent in the current climate, it's to do with weak policy on rent control, it's to do with the stripping of state owned housing by the FF market. FF/FG are all about privitisation to the wealthy businessmen and vulture funds.

Yada yada yada. Build 100,000 extra houses or apartments in the next 2 years and the rent ripoffs will disappear like snow off a rope. 10 years ago rents were a lot cheaper as tenants had plenty of availability and could pick and choose and shop around. The squeeze on availability created a cartel who could charge what they liked. Once you restore that availability, you kill the cartel, and the problem will solve itself.
Quote
Ireland is one of the most unequal countries in Europe when it comes to healthcare access and a healthcare crisis exists exacerbates this
Fix the HSE and you fix this. But this will involve letting go a lot of staff, streamlining admin and reorganising the way things are done. I can't see the State managing this even if they want to. Can you?

Quote
Dublin has the third highest residential rents in Europe, mortgage interest rates in Ireland are way above those in Europe and a homelessnes crisis exists due to this.
See above.
Quote
When these situations exist, and not only to they exist but they continue to get worse, a good economy is merely a sideshow. Wealthy inequality is growing under the policies of FF/FG and that's the aim of their policies.
The problem is much deeper than wealth inequality. Unless you're advocating full communism, a surgeon will always earn a multiple of a dustman's pay.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 29, 2020, 07:04:29 PM
It doesn't agree with his neo liberal right wing mind.
8)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:00:10 AM
Please don't come back with some pseudo economics bullshit.


Simple supply and demand. If there were not investors buying houses to let, then house prices would drop - and since there are pretty much as many homes as there are folks looking homes - they'd drop to a level where people (who are right now priced out of the market) could actually afford to buy.

Worst is - its only getting harder and harder as investors accumulate more purchasing power off the rent paid by those who are already struggling to save deposits to compete with their landlords in the housing market.

Do you want an answer or do you not? I can answer you easily if you wish but if you've made up your mind already, I'd be only wasting my time.

Your call.

You don't have an answer that isn't grounded in the waffle and shite of your pseudo-economics. Simply because there is no answer.


The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

For those that cannot afford a deposit, the price of housing will be such that social housing could easily be acquired by govt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:22:57 AM

You don't have an answer that isn't grounded in the waffle and shite of your pseudo-economics. Simply because there is no answer.

Really? I have explained my reasoning at length in this thread. Your resort to insult suggests you're not particularly interested anyway.

Quote
The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

Demand is already a function of population headcount. Had our population declined in the past decade we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. 

In addition, the available housing stock will always diminish unless older homes that are falling into dereliction or disrepair are either renovated or replaced by new housing. There has been little new building or renovation in recent times.

As our population has increased and the net stock of homes has fallen, so prices have risen in response to demand, even as many landlords have exited the market. This basic supply/demand equation will apply regardless of who owns the houses.

You can temporarily fix the prices of homes and their rents but doing so means that you kill any incentive for older homes to be renovated back into use or new ones to be built from scratch. So, as demand continues to increase, more people end up sleeping on other people's couches, in hostels and B&Bs or on the streets, along canals or under bridges.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 30, 2020, 11:58:56 AM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
While the East and parts of the South are concerned about quality of life issues like traffic jams, commuters, childcare, school places , house prices we in the BMW have the same concerns as we've had for decades-jobs and now the gradual withdrawal of facilities in villages and small towns.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 12:02:56 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There’s no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don’t realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it’s ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we’ve ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won’t see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 12:04:25 PM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
While the East and parts of the South are concerned about quality of life issues like traffic jams, commuters, childcare, school places , house prices we in the BMW have the same concerns as we've had for decades-jobs and now the gradual withdrawal of facilities in villages and small towns.

All very true. A friend who is a genuine political insider although tied to no party thinks Varadkar will beat the odds and win. I can't see it but maybe FF's weak leadership (not just Martin) will hurt them. Either way the people's concerns, east and west, will be forgotten for another 4 or 5 years.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Taylor on January 30, 2020, 12:13:10 PM
Without having any great insight into politics in the 26 are people going to end up voting for the same party who have shafted them over the years?

Much like Boris and the conservatives.

The alternatives are worse than what is currently in power?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 30, 2020, 01:18:58 PM
Without having any great insight into politics in the 26 are people going to end up voting for the same party who have shafted them over the years?

Much like Boris and the conservatives.

The alternatives are worse than what is currently in power?

But what a party did in the distant past isn't relevant to what they'll do next. It's the current people in the party that need to be judged, not the former members.
In my opinion, it was Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan who made the unforgiveable mistakes. They're both gone, so I *could* vote for FF again. 
Of course, fair enough, if people think that it's still too early and there are still important members of the party who were around during Cowen's time and should share the blame.
But I think if you want to have a pop at Micheal Martin, have a pop at him for what he's doing or not doing - not for what previous party members did.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on January 30, 2020, 01:31:31 PM
Well lads and ladies now that we're down to the last 8 or 9 days before the vote and we've heard loads of waffle and fairytales - how do ye think it will end up?
Most think FF will be the largest party, FG to drop seats, SF despite their poor show last May to do pretty well and Greens to take up to 10 seats.
Updated odds from the bookies (left column is current odds, right was the odds on January 20th)

Next Taoiseach:

1/7 Martin 1/5
4/1 Varadker 3/1
20/1 Mary Lou 25/1

Next government (need to have a Cabinet Minister to be part of the government, for the purposes of these odds:)

6/1 Fianna Fail/Green 6/1

14/1 FF/SD/Lab/Green 6/1

12/1 Fianna Fail/Independents 8/1

20/1 FG/Lab/SD/Green 10/1

6/1 FF/Green/Independents 10/1

12/1 FF/Lab/Green/Independents 11/1

12/1 FF/Lab/Green 12/1

16/1 Fine Gael/Fianna Fail 12/1

7/1 Fianna Fail/Sinn Fein 12/1

12/1 FF/SF/Independents

16/1 Fine Gael/Green 12/1

16/1 Fianna Fail Minority 14/1

33/1 FG/Green/Independents 14/1

20/1 Fine Gael/Independents 16/1

20/1 Fine Gael/Sinn Fein 18/1

20/1 Fianna Fail Majority 20/1

25/1 Fine Gael Minority 20/1

16/1 Fianna Fail/Labour 20/1

40/1 FG/Lab/Green/Independents 22/1

40/1 FG/Lab/Green 22/1

20/1 FF/Lab/Independents 22/1

33/1 Fine Gael/Labour 25/1

50/1 SF/SD/Lab/Green/PBP
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 30, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There’s no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don’t realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it’s ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we’ve ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won’t see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don’t see why those types of speed can’t be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
Over a long time period, investment in infrastructure is usually always money well spent.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 02:18:16 PM

Quote
The market always has a fundamental basis in supply and demand. Removing landlords from the equation suddenly fixes demand as a direct function of population headcount. Which then means prices will drop significantly unless a rake of houses are demolished.

Demand is already a function of population headcount. Had our population declined in the past decade we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. 

Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.


In addition, the available housing stock will always diminish unless older homes that are falling into dereliction or disrepair are either renovated or replaced by new housing. There has been little new building or renovation in recent times.

As our population has increased and the net stock of homes has fallen, so prices have risen in response to demand, even as many landlords have exited the market. This basic supply/demand equation will apply regardless of who owns the houses.

There are ~20k new houses built every year in the ROI. Population growth is around 60k/year. Averaging 3 people per house would indicate increased stock is not too disproportionate to demand.

How does a family that is paying a mortgage compete when looking to buy with someone who has the income off the rent of 3 or 4 other houses?

https://www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/investing/ireland-retains-top-position-as-europes-buy-to-let-hotspot/

So Real Estate Investment Trusts have been buying up houses that Irish men and women want, but now cannot afford.

You can temporarily fix the prices of homes and their rents but doing so means that you kill any incentive for older homes to be renovated back into use or new ones to be built from scratch. So, as demand continues to increase, more people end up sleeping on other people's couches, in hostels and B&Bs or on the streets, along canals or under bridges.

No one sensible, certainly not me (despite my daftness) is proposing "fixing price or rent", indeed, I posted to the exact opposite a few pages back.

Focusing on the reasons for the price rise rather than the price rise itself is the way to solve the problem.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 02:33:32 PM
Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.

I have no idea what your point is here. The relationship between price and demand is one of the cornerstones of economics. A landlord who owns 5 or 500 houses doesn't live in all of them. The numbers of people accommodated in them should be more or less the same regardless of how the property is owned. In fact, due to houseshares, its probably arguable that more people per unit are accommodated in an average rental property than in an owner-occupied one. But the difference is neither here nor there.
Quote

There are ~20k new houses built every year in the ROI. Population growth is around 60k/year. Averaging 3 people per house would indicate increased stock is not too disproportionate to demand.

There is also a serious deficit in the housing stock arising from the first half the decade. Only 8,488 dwellings were completed in 2012. https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-mip/measuringirelandsprogress2012/economy/economy-housing/

Quote
How does a family that is paying a mortgage compete when looking to buy with someone who has the income off the rent of 3 or 4 other houses?

https://www.worldfirst.com/uk/blog/your-money/investing/ireland-retains-top-position-as-europes-buy-to-let-hotspot/

So Real Estate Investment Trusts have been buying up houses that Irish men and women want, but now cannot afford.

That's all a direct consequence of high rents caused by demand caused by shortage of properties..
Quote

No one sensible, certainly not me (despite my daftness) is proposing "fixing price or rent", indeed, I posted to the exact opposite a few pages back.

Focusing on the reasons for the price rise rather than the price rise itself is the way to solve the problem.

Fair enough.

I don't think we're actually that far off each other in our perspectives here. But there's no way that getting rid of the landlords is going to solve anything. The limited trend in that direction in the past decade has already been catastrophic. There is huge demand for rental accommodation. What happens when all these people have nowhere to go?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on January 30, 2020, 02:41:14 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There’s no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don’t realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it’s ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we’ve ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won’t see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don’t see why those types of speed can’t be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.

I am not arguing against the need for a childrens hospital.

The argument is the fact its the 6th most expensive building ever built and easily three times more expensive than the second most expensive hospital, which was a full campus.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on January 30, 2020, 03:20:47 PM
He is tight that FF simply aren't credible and want us to forget history. But the notion that FG made no mistakes is mindnumbingly stupid

Plenty of mistakes although some like water charges were unpopular choices. We do need in my opinion to pay for water, and many do down the country (farmers and those in rural water schemes). But the free stuff brigade are loud. Yes broadband and children’s hospital are astronomical cost but will be essential to our future. There’s no inexpensive way to do rural broadband and those talking about 5G don’t realise how much that will cost and requires transmitters every 500 feet. Good luck with that. They left the economy in far better shape than they found it and it’s ironic that Boris got a landslide for his poor Brexit deal that sliced off North and Leo and Coveney who achieved what is essentially the closest we’ve ever come to an all-island economy will be sent packing to the cheers of the British right and the Irish left (and look underneath and you won’t see much difference between that lot).

This shit spin is why Leo will be P45d in 2 weeks

Not spin - as a parent with a child who needed specialised care, this hospital is worth any money for future Irish parents who will need it. The future of work will see many working from home so broadband will be essential. I can still get 15mbps in rural Roscommon so don’t see why those types of speed can’t be given to rest of rural Ireland. There was lots of things in the past that were seen as a great waste of money that are now seen as good decisions. Knock Airport for example.

I am not arguing against the need for a childrens hospital.

The argument is the fact its the 6th most expensive building ever built and easily three times more expensive than the second most expensive hospital, which was a full campus.

And I’m saying it and broadband will be money well spent despite the final costs because there’s a value there that will serve future generations. I wish we overspent on our rail service back in the day instead of being cheap and pulling up lines and closing stations. Such investments pay off in long term.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 03:37:13 PM
And I’m saying it and broadband will be money well spent despite the final costs because there’s a value there that will serve future generations. I wish we overspent on our rail service back in the day instead of being cheap and pulling up lines and closing stations. Such investments pay off in long term.

My fear about the broadband is that they'll end up spending a lot of public money on marginal upgrades in areas that already have decent broadband while continuing to ignore blackspots. Local FG guy told me on Facebook when it was launched that my area would be near the top of the list, but our broadband is actually good enough and has recently enough been upgraded.

And we did overspend, ridiculously, on the railways back in the day. Most of that money was lost. The decision to shut them all down came over a half a century later when ordinary people started buying cars.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 07:28:47 PM
Demand (in Dublin) is currently largely decoupled from price by the existence of landlords (and I obviously include REITs in that).

Remove landlords and price will be much more directly a function of population headcount.

I have no idea what your point is here. The relationship between price and demand is one of the cornerstones of economics. A landlord who owns 5 or 500 houses doesn't live in all of them. The numbers of people accommodated in them should be more or less the same regardless of how the property is owned. In fact, due to houseshares, its probably arguable that more people per unit are accommodated in an average rental property than in an owner-occupied one. But the difference is neither here nor there.

Landlords have greater purchasing power than renters looking to save for a house.

It is landlords competing with each other to buy more property that is pushing prices up.

Its fairly simple.

Demand for a house due to the need for shelter is not the same as demand for a house due to a want for an investment.

It is the latter that is doing (or has done) much of the damage for prices.


How can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices? Because those renting simply cannot save enough to buy! The landlords have their property "portfolio" and are pulling the ladder up swiftly behind them.


That's all a direct consequence of high rents caused by demand caused by shortage of properties..

No indeed it is not.

If you have a house on the market, and several investors are interested in it as well as several buy-to-live in; which do you think has the most purchasing power to buy it?


Yes, the govt needs to dramatically increase the number of apartments/houses available - but they also need to kick buy-to-let firmly into the bin. Be they foreign or indigenous investors - the cost of owning and renting a house should be utterly obscene in order to force folks to sell up. So what if it causes a bit of a collapse back in house prices - the longer term benefits far outweigh the transients.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on January 30, 2020, 07:30:57 PM
Quote
How can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on January 30, 2020, 08:02:54 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:45:39 PM
Quote
How can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?

Because people can't afford the mortgage deposit.

Otherwise they'd buy that very house they are renting and pay off the mortgage on it instead.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 30, 2020, 10:46:41 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

Indeed. There needs to be a bit of a rinsing unfortunately - but it'd be better for everyone in the long run.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:50:11 PM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

Indeed. There needs to be a bit of a rinsing unfortunately - but it'd be better for everyone in the long run.
Be careful what you wish for. "Rinsings" rarely end well, least of all those at the bottom of the heap.  The 2008 one for example.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on January 30, 2020, 10:51:52 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 30, 2020, 10:55:33 PM
Quote
How can rent prices be significantly higher than mortgage prices?

Because there are not enough landlords renting houses?

Because people can't afford the mortgage deposit.

Otherwise they'd buy that very house they are renting and pay off the mortgage on it instead.

The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on January 30, 2020, 11:06:36 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on January 30, 2020, 11:13:07 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Ivan Yates ruined the debate from the start - all about him.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:30:12 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Ivan Yates ruined the debate from the start - all about him.

How does an ex FG TD get to host a debate and then shouts at everyone for an hour. A joke.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 30, 2020, 11:33:05 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on January 31, 2020, 08:59:39 AM
It's a problem caused by the moratorium on social housing,  ultra low interest rates and the free for all enjoyed by property speculators. It's a structural problem and it won't be fixed in a pleasant way for property owners.

It's not a moratorium. State social housing is a thing of the past. It worked fine when a council could build for £20k a unit and slip a tradesman a few bob in cash to do the snag list. Now at €250k a pop and with all bells and whistles of regulation, it's beyond unaffordable.

I wish it were otherwise and like you I'll gladly support the deregulation of the building industry to make social housing happen again, but I'm afraid the clocks aren't turning back anytime soon. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: ardtole on January 31, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 10:27:07 AM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on January 31, 2020, 11:53:58 AM
Get used to it folks.
The new All Ireland entity will have lots  of special provisions for the people currently described as Unionists.
Meanwhile the outcome of this election will likely cause months of negotiations like 2016 before a Government is put together.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 12:28:51 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on January 31, 2020, 01:28:16 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 01:39:16 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on January 31, 2020, 01:41:16 PM
The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.

Yes... because every one of them would rather pay twice the mortgage amount in rent instead.

Would you ever listen to yourself ffs.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 02:16:49 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.

I am a republican but I have to admit that 50% +1 will not be a good foundation for a peaceful, prosperous or harmonious united ireland. SF are wrong on this and they tore strips off Eastwood for saying it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on January 31, 2020, 02:20:33 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition

People will not decide with their hearts. They will decide with logic if an UI is feasible. The black and tans thing will be forgotten, just the same way people have quickly forgotten SF's support to similar projects in the North
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on January 31, 2020, 02:44:32 PM
Mary Lou saying very little tonight and so wins the debate for me.

And when she does speak, she wins hands down.

Even the TV3 panel afterwards begrudgingly said as much. The more I look at Michael Martin I want to grab everyone and Ireland and scream "NO", as bad as Leo is that guy is just a useless w**ker. Talking about border counties he never set foot in for more than 30 minutes, last week saying "people coming down here...." referring to Ulstermen. No plan for a border poll. Some republican he is.

I heard Martin on the last word, a few days ago. He was quizzed by Matt Cooper on his hope's for a united Ireland, I was taken aback by how opposed he is to the thought of a united Ireland. A united people was his hope for the future, he was more concerned about unionists feelings and even if there was a narrow majority in favour of a united Ireland in a border poll, he didnt necessarily feel that would be sufficient grounds either. Sounds more like a unionist than a Republican to me.

This is also Sinn Féins new approach

Not true, Sinn Feins position is a united people but also a 50%+1 is enough.
BTW, isn't there a need for a referendum in the republic also?

Yes there is. Given how the black and tan commeration went that is now cancelled (not Leo said cancelled last night, not postponed) I doubt any of tha main parties would be canvassing for partition

People will not decide with their hearts. They will decide with logic if an UI is feasible. The black and tans thing will be forgotten, just the same way people have quickly forgotten SF's support to similar projects in the North

People will decide with whatever they want to decide, whether it be heart or head.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 01, 2020, 11:35:16 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 12:27:07 AM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 03:40:34 AM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 02, 2020, 04:33:01 AM
Sorry if I've posted this already but David McWilliams posted an interesting podcast (all of his stuff is interesting IMHO) about the differences not so much between FF and FG, but between the people who support them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEG8UncZ6VY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEG8UncZ6VY)

The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

So it's a bit like saying GAA types would be likely to vote FF, and rugby types would be likely to vote FG.

I find McWilliams is very good at spotting different 'types' of people around the country and the different ways they think, the way they spend their money and so on.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 02, 2020, 07:10:38 AM
Great podcast! Very interesting viewpoint..always thought of FG as med to large farmers, elite professionals, protestants and journalists, while FF as the peasants, working class and business owners. But he takes it to another level with this old english thing. Tho in saying that it should be pointed out the Norman's are more likely to be at the hurling than rugby
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:42:32 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 02, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
The high number of twenty-something foreign-born workers renting apartments in the Dublin docklands have no interest in buying homes in Dublin. Nor have thousands of young Irish workers of the same age group.Getting rid of landlords means getting rid of these people.

Yes... because every one of them would rather pay twice the mortgage amount in rent instead.

Would you ever listen to yourself ffs.

Will you ever stop with the personal insults?

You really think that every single Irish twenty-something living the dream for a few years in Australia wants to lumber themselves with a huge mortgage for a house or apartment that they probably won't want in 5 years time?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 10:31:47 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 02, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 02, 2020, 12:39:39 PM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Bullshit. Dev was fond of a bung, he trousered Republicsn bonds and raised the Irish Press for personal gain. Taca was shaking down property developers in the 60s.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 12:43:17 PM
Haughey led FF off the right road. There remains a pre Haughey DNA in FF, which may have other shortcomings but it is not corrupt.
Bullshit. Dev was fond of a bung, he trousered Republicsn bonds and raised the Irish Press for personal gain. Taca was shaking down property developers in the 60s.

Absolutely.

Dev was the arguably the biggest snake of the lot.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 02, 2020, 01:23:11 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Outside the FF & FG  traditional base of voters i'd say the public perception of any differences have  significantly diminished during the propped up government era and now both parties comically simulating ideological clashes and throwing snowballs at each other.
FF are peddling a subsidy of sorts for new house buyers which in the end just benefits their support base, the builders and property inflation.
The perception of an Ireland having done well under FG and a dormant FF is not finding traction with hard pressed middle income groups never mind the lower incomes. This could be an interesting election.




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 02, 2020, 01:34:12 PM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 02, 2020, 01:42:34 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.
Outside the FF & FG  traditional base of voters i'd say the public perception of any differences have  significantly diminished during the propped up government era and now both parties comically simulating ideological clashes and throwing snowballs at each other.
FF are peddling a subsidy of sorts for new house buyers which in the end just benefits their support base, the builders and property inflation.
The perception of an Ireland having done well under FG and a dormant FF is not finding traction with hard pressed middle income groups never mind the lower incomes. This could be an interesting election.

Yeah, both sides of the same coin this past few years so very hard for voters to tell what is the difference between them these days.  Is there any? 

Even in the general to-ing and fro-ing of this general election campaign, there doesn't seem to be any major animosity between them.  Their focus seems to be a joint effort to rebuke SF at every opportunity.

Best case is FG's ad of No to SF in government ad with all their big players saying a resounding no.  But they never thought it through as SF, Labour and the Greens have altered it to stuff like - Will FG build more houses if re-elected or will FG implement more environmentally friendly policies etc. to which all the hit hitters of FG say No, not a chance etc.  The PR king who never thought that ad campaign through won't be getting a bonus I'd say.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 02, 2020, 02:24:58 PM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 02, 2020, 02:36:41 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2020, 02:06:33 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Well this is the first I've heard of it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: omaghjoe on February 03, 2020, 04:47:03 AM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 10:30:21 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Well this is the first I've heard of it.

That's exactly how he operates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 03, 2020, 11:45:35 AM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 03, 2020, 01:09:00 PM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 01:14:45 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: MayoBuck on February 03, 2020, 01:20:23 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

They've a chance of getting the last seat in Mayo.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 01:22:59 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

Paddy Power thinks SF will get 2 in Cavan/Monaghan.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 01:24:25 PM
Assuming the SF wind continues where will they get seats?
Donegal 2
Sligo/Leitrim/North Ros/South Donegal 1
Cavan/Monaghan 1
Louth 2
Laois/Offaly 1.
Dublin 8
Cork 3
Kerry 1
Limerick 1
After that...???

I'd expect 2 to be returned in Cavan/Monaghan, should be in with a shout of a couple in Meath.

They currently also have TDs in  Waterford, Carlow-Kilkenny and Wicklow.

I'd expect they will hit 30 seats.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 01:57:56 PM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide

You asked, I am telling you it is no more complicated than that. I estimate around 30% will vote along family lines and  they have no idea where those family decisions came from. That 30% drops every year as the newest generations are starting to think for themselves. There is no major policy differences between FF and FG, that is just a fact.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 02:09:41 PM
You asked, I am telling you it is no more complicated than that. I estimate around 30% will vote along family lines and  they have no idea where those family decisions came from. That 30% drops every year as the newest generations are starting to think for themselves. There is no major policy differences between FF and FG, that is just a fact.

The 1997 election was probably the last one when a large number of people voted along family lines. FG were decimated in 2002 and FF eventually in 2011.

The idea that younger voters "think for themselves" is highly debatable.  People tend these days to vote by instinct.

And there are major differences between FF and FG. For example, FF would never have let a housing crisis develop without having the builders build houses to fix it. When FF does this in government, the FG opposition will lacerate them for daring to solve their mess. All depressingly predictable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 02:10:28 PM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 02:21:43 PM
Quote
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.

Maybe I've a bad memory but I can't recall even a hint that Albert Reynolds was ever corrupt or took money from anyone?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:21:57 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 06:24:28 PM
Car sites! Damn the spell checker..I mean candidates.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 06:31:06 PM
The short version is, FF people mostly have their roots in Gaelic Ireland. FG supporters mostly trace their roots to the Norman invasion.

Typical McWilliams, finding an old wisdom that was on the go 40 years ago (it was always said to be the difference between Charlie Haughey and Garret Fitzgerald) and dressing it up as his own.

Tbf, Haughey was also a corrupt politician who created the brown envelope culture that endured in FF for 30 odd years. The history of corruption in FF is the reason I won't be voting for them although MM doesn't seem to have been involved in it himself

MM wasn't involved? Really?

It's amazing how the media have let this story slide away over the years without it properly being addressed.

Amazing.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/we-need-to-talk-about-money-miche%C3%A1l-1.560262

Wasn't aware of that, like you say it doesn't get much media attention. I guess anyone who was in FF during that period was probably in on it to a greater or lesser extent

When is the period where FF weren't bent?

Not sure tbh but the Charlie to Bertie era was particularly bad
You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!

Odd that Lord Bruton admired Collins and Lemass as both were terrorists by his logic and he hated militant resistance.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 06:37:18 PM
Election postponed in Tipperary as one of the candidates has died.
The whole nomination process has to be gone through again with voting taking place near the end of February.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 03, 2020, 06:49:47 PM

You need to go back a bit but John Bruton used to have a portrait of the three statesmen/politicians he admired most hanging in his Taoiseach's office. One was Michael Collins, another was W.T. Cosgrave and the third was Sean Lemass.
Being FG himself. you could expect the first two but a former FF Taoiseach?
Bruton reckoned Lemass was the founder of modern Ireland, who put the good of the country above party politics and his word was his deed, as the old saying puts it.
I'd imagine Jack Lynch was honest;incompetent maybe and unable to keep Haughey, Boland  % Co. under control but personally straightforward.
After that, Haughey, Reynolds, Ahern belong in a rogues' gallery.
Mick  Martin? Personally okay but suspicious of a few others in the party. FG? Don't believe the bull poo about them  always dedicated to the public good and always ready to do their duty and step in to clean up the mess left by FF.
Fact is, everytime they took over, they got effed out again at the very next election until Enda barely managed to get re-elected in 2016.
Obviously, the electorate was never too happy with their attempts to serve the public good!!

Reynolds? I thought of him as a bit of an anomaly in FF. He was an outsider, coming from the world of business rather than politics. He purged the Haugheyites from the cabinet as soon as he got in. An underrated Taoiseach IMHO. It was a slip-up that took his government down. I'm not sure if I'd count him as one of the rogues.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 06:59:50 PM
He was a Ros native who brought peace to Ireland.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:10:31 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:14:49 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

 The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:18:01 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Lar Naparka on February 03, 2020, 07:21:48 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

 The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
There were serious allegations that the passports were in return for investment in C and D foods for one
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:24:21 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:32:02 PM
My memory is a bit hazy but I can think of of a few that made the news. Do you remember the contraversy over the shipment of Irish beef to Iraq? Larry Goodman got dept of trade cover where no insurance company would take the risk. Albert was accused if insisting that Goodman got the go ahead in spite if the dept's reservations. Then Harry Wheeler (?) the AG, and a pal of Albert was appointed a High Court judge but was less qualified than other car sites. Harry took the job, heard one case and then resigned. Then there was the scandal over Arab businessmen getting Irish passports after they invested in Albert's pet food company. I can think of a few more serious ones but they were passed on to me by some of Bertie's henchmen so I don't think it fair to say they were true.*


(But they are. :D)

None of those suggest, even now, that Reynolds was corrupt or ever took money off anyone.

There was never any suggestion that the Goodman shenanigans ever financially benefitted Reynolds.

 The passports thing was probably a conflict of interest but there was no suggestion of corruption.

The controversial Harry Whelehan appointment had nothing to do with money and was anyway only a bottle of smoke with a few barristers annoyed that their Buggins Turn appointment had fallen through.
There were serious allegations that the passports were in return for investment in C and D foods for one

Allegations of conflict of interest. None of corruption.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:33:04 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 07:37:23 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 03, 2020, 07:43:57 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.

A Shinner lectures on defending the indefensible. My sides.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 08:03:41 PM
Voting in the general election in the Tipperary constituency will be postponed after Independent candidate Marese Skehan from Thurles was found dead at her home on Monday.

Independent Mattie McGrath is seeking legal advice in a bid to avoid postponement of General Election vote in Tipperary. If that’s not possible he says he would go to the courts to seek to delay the election in all constituencies.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Capt Pat on February 03, 2020, 08:23:21 PM
I don't see why they have to postpone the election in Tipperary. It seems a bit pointless to postpone it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 08:32:52 PM
Legislation dealing with such a scenario, when a candidate dies before polling commences, outlines how the returning officer must cancel the poll.


http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1992/act/23/section/62/enacted/en/html#sec62
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 03, 2020, 08:50:16 PM
I don't see why they have to postpone the election in Tipperary. It seems a bit pointless to postpone it.
Its the Law ;)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 03, 2020, 09:16:21 PM
Gas seeing all the FF sympathisers trying to rewrite history.

The party of the brown envelope, wink and nor culture. They're all tainted.

If you mean me, I'm not an FF sympathiser. But Reynolds was unjustly screwed, by an FF element up to their balls in real corruption.

All the same, your sanctimony is funny, given the record of the shower you've been plugging here recently.

I think you protest too much.

You would, wouldn't you.

You're defending the indefensible. I'd say you're a firm believer in happy coincidences.

A Shinner lectures on defending the indefensible. My sides.

Given that the free state turned their back on northern nationalists and let them defenceless in a sectarian statelet then I'm sure you'll appreciate that there's a large dose of irony to Michael Martin pontificating to SF about defending their communities.

There seems to be a lot of chaps like you on here who can't state their own political allegiances yet consistently run down SF. Like you they deny voting for FF/FG, the shame of it all is too much for them when they get up on their soap box.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on February 03, 2020, 09:39:27 PM
Latest Irish Times poll of 1200 people over last weekend.

Sinn Féin 25
Fianna Fáíl 23
Fine Gael 20
Greens 8
Labour 4
Social Democrats 2
Sol- People Before Profit 2
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 09:41:13 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone’s guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 09:55:53 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone’s guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.

It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 03, 2020, 10:10:23 PM
Latest poll has SF in the lead which is a major surprise but just shows the disillusionment with the 2 main parties. How this plays out in terms of the formation of the next government is anyone’s guess. If FF/FG continue to rule out SF in government it could be a rainbow coalition or another C & S arrangement.

It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

It’s certainly not out of the question if the polls translate into election results and might provide a route to forming a stable coalition. However there would still be a major rump of discontentment among the population were that to actually materialise.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Ambrose on February 03, 2020, 10:19:00 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 03, 2020, 10:47:36 PM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?

Fair ppint
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 10:36:45 AM
FF and FG are a rare bunch....spent the last few days talking about who is the most anti Sinn Fein, peculiar election strategy esp since they are polling at such a large chunk of 1st preference votes youd think they'd be looking for their transfers.

Anyway I kind of have my own ideas on it but do any of our southern voters care to share what they think is the difference between FF and FG and why they'd vote for one over the other?

There is no difference really, martin is a slightly bigger dick than Leo in my mind. Policies are pretty much the same.

Yeah we all know  that they are the same but there must be some perceived differences. To me FG always came across as a bit snobby and intellectual whereas FF are more like cowboys for the common man.

It's like I support man utd, you support liverpool. Its handed down from the civil war. All around there are FF families and FG families. It's no more complicated than that.

I think it is a wee bit more complicated than that.... as there is an obivious difference in the perceptions of the two and definitely a difference in who their core support is. So yes FF & FG were born out of the civil war but who fell on what side of the line and why really gets to the route of the divide
Of course there are two distinct paths in history for FF and FG, but over time their policies have merged politically in the Dail as to make no difference, this perception was reinforced by one propping up the other.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Boycey on February 04, 2020, 11:08:15 AM
Mary Lou will have to perform like never before tonight because I'm sure the boys will gang up on her...

Conor Murphy/Paul Quinn
Ard Comhairle
Tax policies

Its doubtful though whether they can land a knockout blow on SF at this late stage. I was looking at the projections this morning we're very near the point where others would be the biggest group

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:12:44 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:20:12 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 04, 2020, 11:32:57 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.

Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 04, 2020, 11:44:10 AM
Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?

Something wrong if it doesn't.

You gotta laugh at Varadkar. This was his cunning plan to exploit his fake "down with the kids" persona.  ;D
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:45:37 AM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.

Will a Saturday vote bring a bigger youth turnout on polling day?

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Owenmoresider on February 04, 2020, 11:49:05 AM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
They haven't, but when the likes of you treat supporting SF like it was your football team that's the sort of shite that will be spouted.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:52:05 AM
It might force tweddle dumb and tweddle dee to amalgamate which would be a good thing.

Haven't FFG already amalgamated?
They haven't, but when the likes of you treat supporting SF like it was your football team that's the sort of shite that will be spouted.

Well one propped the other up for the term of this government and there are hardly any differences between their politics so I am not sure what you are getting annoyed about. Whats the difference between Eamonn Scanlon and Thomas Walsh and John Perry in Sligo, sweet FA I would say.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 11:52:20 AM
Mary Lou will have to perform like never before tonight because I'm sure the boys will gang up on her...

Conor Murphy/Paul Quinn
Ard Comhairle
Tax policies

Its doubtful though whether they can land a knockout blow on SF at this late stage. I was looking at the projections this morning we're very near the point where others would be the biggest group

The impact of these debates are often overstated and unless anyone of them drops a clanger I really don't see it changing much in terms of swaying peoples opinions. The media love to hype them up however and if they pick up on something they can set the news agenda for a period afterwards.

In a PR election, transfers will be just as important as first preference votes and the fact that FF & FG combined have less than 50% of the vote based on polls could make it really difficult when forming a government. It will likely be FF and some other combination but the numbers may well leave them with little option but to consider a coalition with either FG or SF. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 04, 2020, 12:35:07 PM

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)

I'd say Leo regrets not calling the election in Oct/Nov when public sentiment was that he'd done a very good job on Brexit. Now that it's all done and dusted, it's old news.

The Greens got off to a great start, because anyone with sense knows the environment's a huge issue. Unfortunately, the Greens acknowledged that we'll all have to sacrifice, even if it's only a little bit. Whereas SF are saying someone else is going to be pay for everything!

There might well be near enough full employment, and you're able to go on holidays every year, you're able pay for Netflix every month and you've got your X-Box, but there's a fooker around the corner with a bigger house and a bigger car. He can pay for it! Up the Shinners, what's not to love?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 12:42:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 12:55:43 PM

Its possible, I bet if Leo had his time over again he wouldnt have chosen a Saturday! In fairness I think turnout is a big unknown, how pissed off are the young people and how willing are they to put down their mobiles and go out and vote? One very interesting thing was that the Greens only scored 7% I think in the youngest group polled yesterday, SF I think were in the 30s which is incredible (going by memory here as cant find it online)

I'd say Leo regrets not calling the election in Oct/Nov when public sentiment was that he'd done a very good job on Brexit. Now that it's all done and dusted, it's old news.

The Greens got off to a great start, because anyone with sense knows the environment's a huge issue. Unfortunately, the Greens acknowledged that we'll all have to sacrifice, even if it's only a little bit. Whereas SF are saying someone else is going to be pay for everything!

There might well be near enough full employment, and you're able to go on holidays every year, you're able pay for Netflix every month and you've got your X-Box, but there's a fooker around the corner with a bigger house and a bigger car. He can pay for it! Up the Shinners, what's not to love?

They probably thought there was no chance that they would be in government prior to their manifesto being drawn up so they could say what they wanted. Most people simply don't look into the details as we have seen in recent elections elsewhere. Now there is an outside chance that they could be part of a coalition government with FF or FG. In which case they can hide behind the bigger parties policies. However if that came to pass I think they would suffer a similar fate to the Labour party as a minority partner.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 01:34:02 PM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

No lad, we have never been here where SF is polling ahead of all other parties. It is true that their support is larger in young people than old and that young people are less likely to turn out. I see the Indo is doing its patriotic duty but throwing IRA into the mix again, pathetic rag. Unfortunately for them the people voting for SF dont buy newspapers anymore.

SF never match their polling numbers. Why will Saturday be different?

But I agree operation scare the shite out of them is up and running. But thats not really aimed at SF core.
SF gained 9 seats in 2012 and another 9 in 2016.
It is a party which is progressively building a solid base, not just a so called vote of discontent. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 04, 2020, 01:37:55 PM
We have been here before. SF poll well but on the day it doesn't materialise.

Not entirely true, it would seem. On Newstalk the other day, an analyst of some description was on talking about previous elections, and noted that Sinn Féin only finish well below early campaign polls, but that the most accurate polls tend to be those done in the final week of an election, and that in the last few elections, the 'final week' polls were very close to getting SF's actual % correct, with the party typically only ending up around 1% below the predictions.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Harold Disgracey on February 04, 2020, 02:29:51 PM
De réir phobalbhreith TG4 / Ipsos MRBI, tá baol ann go gcaillfidh Danny Healy Rae a shuíochán

Danny Healy Rae in trouble according to a poll to be released on TG4 this evening!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
That's what he gets for not wearing a cap!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 04, 2020, 04:12:46 PM
Never underestimate SF; their's is a long-term strategy.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 04:21:13 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-tipperary-vote-postponed-after-candidate-dies-1.4160576
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 04, 2020, 04:25:11 PM
Off-shore islands used vote a couple of days ahead of mainland constituencies, but only have their ballot papers counted along with the rest at the main count, presumably in case their votes would give biased direction to other voters (?). In light of that, would it not seem proper to delay the main count until the reconstituted Tipp voting has taken place? Is there a precedent for this? It's different from a by-election after all.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 04:33:24 PM
Happened in Council elections in Roscommon in 2004 in the Ros Town electoral area.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 04:54:03 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mouview on February 04, 2020, 05:01:44 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Homelessness is a (greater) issue in many western/EU countries. As are health services. Children's hospital is a bad look alright. FG inherited a lot of FF-made problems and have made a fair fist of righting them. Do you think SF would have been able to do likewise? Do you really think SF, under control by 'shadowy forces', would have the nous, freedom or capability to run an economy? Don't trust them or give into silly opinion-poll propaganda. Vote with the house, it's safest.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 05:18:09 PM
People want change but until a Government is elected with a mandate to take on the vested interests who control the country there will only be tweaks.

« No matter how well written or delivered, a speech cannot divert whole societies from a well established course of action. Policies in motion tend to stay in motion ; to change the trajectory of a deeply embedded set of initiatives requires the application of political forces of equal motion » Steve Walt

Gilmore  said "Frankfurt's way or Labour's way" in 2011 and look what happened to them after they signed off on austerity.

Changing Ireland is going to mean a serious drop in house prices, higher interest rates, reforming the Civil Service, the health Service etc plus big taxes on wealth.
If I were Mary Lou I wouldn't go into Government now. There is a crash in the works and whoever is in power will own it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 04, 2020, 05:35:06 PM
Jases Seafóid are you George Lee? :D :'(
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2020, 06:00:00 PM
Jases Seafóid are you George Lee? :D :'(

I'm just interested in the big picture. It's a system like any other with its own rules.
https://monthlyreview.org/2011/03/01/structural-crisis-in-the-world-system/

BTW Roscommon might have a better chance of winning an all Ireland under the next economic system.
Cavan , Mayo and Ros all won their Sams in one 20 year period - 1933 to 1952 - where Dublin was neglected.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 04, 2020, 06:37:40 PM
Think the boyos need to forget attacking Mary Lou on IRA past. It's not a vote loser for Sinn Fein anymore. But they should come under scrutiny for their anti-European past. They have campaigned I believe against every major treaty including joining EEC. You could replace all their quotes with Nigel Farage and you would not know the difference. They are actually no different than the anti-EU populism that has been rising, except they are left wing. By a stroke of luck, the DUP backed Brexit, completely taking the focus off Sinn Fein's anti-EU history. But in no way would they have been able to manage Brexit the way FG did, in particular because FG are members of the same party as all those who supported us in the negotiations. Eg Donald Tusk, etc. Brexit is not a vote getter, but I would put down to Irish people taking it for granted. Still has the potential to completely unravel the economy and don't be surprised if under new gov, we take our eye off the ball, and that customs border comes back. Boris and his tricks have not gone away
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:28:07 PM
Anybody hazard a guess on turn out on Saturday?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:35:35 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Totally agree Itchy - you'd swear the FG/FF were the most prudent advisors of all things on the economy this past 15 years.

What a mess they made of this country.

Nobody should be taking economical lectures from them.  What about the broadband roll out? - Mmmmm, one tender will do grand.  Give them a bucket of money sure, it'll be grand.  Sure we don't need the money.  No waiting lists, nobody on trollies and everybody has a house....oh, wait!!!
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: marty34 on February 04, 2020, 07:37:14 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

Homelessness is a (greater) issue in many western/EU countries. As are health services. Children's hospital is a bad look alright. FG inherited a lot of FF-made problems and have made a fair fist of righting them. Do you think SF would have been able to do likewise? Do you really think SF, under control by 'shadowy forces', would have the nous, freedom or capability to run an economy? Don't trust them or give into silly opinion-poll propaganda. Vote with the house, it's safest.

Do you write for the Indo or work for RTÉ?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Art Mc Crory’s Sofa on February 04, 2020, 08:01:33 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:01:40 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 09:32:53 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

People need to keep a sense of proportion. The economy has grown by a quarter in the last Dáil term and there were a quarter of a million more  jobs. Almost any other country in the developed world would have given their left arm to have that. Hospital services have shortcomings, but talk of their being third world is bollix.
I think there should be a change of government, as spending control was not competent, but you have to look at this as they are, not some myth.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 09:39:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 09:44:20 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

I can only agree that it is an absolute disgrace and it has in fact got worse under this government. It isn't the totality of the health service though.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 04, 2020, 10:06:27 PM
Anybody hazard a guess on turn out on Saturday?

67%.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:13:06 PM
Why is the sister of an incoming FF minister being allowed chair an election debate on the state broadcaster with the 3 main party leaders a few days before an election?

It reminds me of this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTXxjQpEYqM
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 10:54:35 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 10:58:01 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:18:03 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:24:43 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 04, 2020, 11:28:55 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".

Thanks,
I'll pass that on and tell him hes lucky to be alive and should suck it up when younger people are seen to first. Sure he will be dead soon anyway.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:31:25 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 04, 2020, 11:32:14 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.



Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically? Why does it exist?

Now, to ask the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trileacman on February 04, 2020, 11:35:04 PM
Leaving an 85 year old man with chronic heart disease on a trolley in a corridor in A&E for 24 hrs as happened to my wife's uncle last week is 3rd world like in my opinion. Hasn't improved one iota in the lifetime of this government

Given that the sub-saharan life expectancy is 61.2 I'd say your proffering an opinion that's plainly wrong.

The health service/state has done a good job of getting your uncle in law to the age of 85 especially considering that he has a major chronic illness. No being disrespectful but it's 85 year olds with chronic illness least in need of urgent care. The health service prioritises, as it should, younger patients with more serious and acute conditions where medical intervention can have the greatest effect.

Whilst it may seem inhumane that the elderly should have to wait in trolleys it's a simple fact that there's very little that hospitals can do for them, they're at the limit of what is medically possible especially those with chronic disease.

I think it was Hardy who said "people in the Western world suffer from Joe Duffyitis, that is, the belief no money should be spent on anything else but the health service until people stop dying".

Thanks,
I'll pass that on and tell him hes lucky to be alive and should suck it up when younger people are seen to first. Sure he will be dead soon anyway.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 04, 2020, 11:40:57 PM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?

They already have a plan to deal with funding pensions, which has been agreed for years. FG failed to properly regulate private companies laying people off at 65, but that can be changed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Main Street on February 04, 2020, 11:47:39 PM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

People need to keep a sense of proportion. The economy has grown by a quarter in the last Dáil term and there were a quarter of a million more  jobs. Almost any other country in the developed world would have given their left arm to have that. Hospital services have shortcomings, but talk of their being third world is bollix.
I think there should be a change of government, as spending control was not competent, but you have to look at this as they are, not some myth.




Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 04, 2020, 11:50:49 PM
Said it beforehand but SF would have been better served if Mary Lou has been excluded from the debate tonight. The main winners tonight were the parties who weren’t there. Same tired rhetoric from FF and FG and some of SF policies don’t really stand up under scrutiny. It was always likely that RTE would bring up a bogeyman from the past in terms of the Paul Quinn death and whilst they do have skeletons as a party, Mary Lou does get a hard time from the media in comparison to others who were actually involved in some of the atrocities. For a party still in a semi transition phase, it could take a few more terms before they become electable.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 12:04:10 AM
So SF will sort the pension crisis and people living longer by having the birthrate rise!! This from the party promoting abortion.

Would you trust the two parties who created the pension crisis to sort it?

The two parties did not create the pensions crisis, except by improving the health service so that people live longer or perhaps by legalising contraception and reducing the birthrate.
The government should only provide a pension for 20 odd years, if life expectancy increases then the pension age should go up. If people want to retire earlier they can save more and retire themselves.

Eh. Of course they created it. Did you think it happened magically?

Now, to answer the question again, do you think the two parties who created the pension crisis are the ones to solve it?

They already have a plan to deal with funding pensions, which has been agreed for years. FG failed to properly regulate private companies laying people off at 65, but that can be changed.

You said FF and FG didn't create the pension crisis. There's no getting around the fact they did create it, I'm asking you if you trust the two parties who created a pension crisis to solve it?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 01:14:32 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 08:54:51 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:05:41 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Hound on February 05, 2020, 09:07:35 AM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:15:56 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.



Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:22:11 AM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

The health service is the toilet and the homeless crisis continues to spiral out of control.

But hey, there's a booming economy as wealth inequality sores.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 09:24:24 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:36:01 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:43:21 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 09:47:53 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 09:50:57 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 09:51:31 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???



FFS. People still listen to that tripe?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:55:02 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Tubberman on February 05, 2020, 09:57:09 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.

How are they a side issue!? They're asking people to vote for them, so people are entitled to ask how are they going to fix the issue.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 10:06:13 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.





I don't disagree that public pensions are way too generous for those who retired before the crash. But the larger demographic point is the bigger issue coming down the road.
How does SF policy of giving the pension to everyone at 65 (and no indication of increasing that age in years to come) resolve the issue in any way??

Well SF is a side issue to what is being denied at the minute.

FF/FG are the cause of the pension crisis, so why on earth would anyone trust them to sort it?

As regards how to solve it, the issue is not necessarily the pension age that is the issue - it's the level of pensions and associated benefits alone being hoovered up by high ranking retired public and civil servants and even the ones at the lower level. That's a creation of FF and FG, for many years these bloated pensions were UNFUNDED. Enda Kenny has retired now and gets a pot of €2m and a and an annual pension of €126k, it would cost €5m of contributions in the private sector. For years and years and years, FF and FG were asleep at the wheel regarding this.

A huge pension deficit was created that FF and FG did not put in place contributions to fund it, it's a making entirely of their policies and complete incompetence.

How are they a side issue!? They're asking people to vote for them, so people are entitled to ask how are they going to fix the issue.

It's a side issue as FF/FG created the the crisis.

It's not your standard private sector worker who retires at 65 who has paid their taxes all their lives and will take home about 12k a year in a pension that is the issue. A person retires at 65, lives on average we'll say 17 years, that's an outlay of 200k for his pensions entitlements.

Now you look at the private sector, take a high ranking civil servant who on retirement will take a lump sump of 150k, will get an annual pension of 75k. That civil servants lives 17 years and costs the tax payer €1.45m including their lump sump. This public sector pension schemes were by and large unfunded.

A pension crisis exists because of mismanagement by FF/FG. There's also plenty of taxation avenues of large multi nationals and the banking sector that neither FF or FG want to touch.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Snapchap on February 05, 2020, 10:06:38 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.

Except that Sinn Féin were not involved in Paul Quinn's murder. That's the sort of 'shady' obfuscation that people cynically abusing his name are trying to engage in. The issue was that Conor Murphy stated Paul was involved in criminality. Incidentally, Bertie made the exact same claim in the Dáil, saying his murder "was not paramilitary but pertained to feuds about criminality that were taking place".
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 10:11:27 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???



FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.   
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 10:11:59 AM
The amount of people defending SF's stance on the Paul Quinn case is really disgusting. Brainwashed.

The amount of people using him for political point scoring is disgusting. And it's typically from people who neither know about, nor want to know about the victims of the conflict unless there's an election campaign happening. Then they'll always pick a useful one. And when the campaign is over, there won't be a word about Paul from the same people. Because that's how much they really care about him and his case. People who a fortnight ago probably never heard of Paul Quinn, but weirdly are taking an interest these days. Nothing like digging up the IRA or things that happened 15 years ago to distract simpletons from the homelessness & health crises that are the real clear & present danger to people today.

You might be right that for most of the time they're not highlighting the Paul Quinn case.
But the reason they're highlighting it now is to remind the electorate of the shady dealings SF are involved in, that these people are still involved in SF today at high office and this issue occurred after the GFA, so cases like this can hardly be described as "victims of the conflict" as you put it.
Murder is still a lot more serious than vote-gate or swing-gate, and rightly so.

Shady dealings are not unique to SF.

Maybe take a look at the decades of corruption and cosy relationships with disreputable businessmen and white collar criminals FF and FG have been involved.

Michael Martin didn't get asked about dodgy property developers to his then taoiseach and lodging money from those dodgy property developers into his bank account last night.

FF and FG don't get asked about their backroom dealings with shadowy figures like Denis O'Brien.

There's never been any justice for the victims of the Dublin/Monaghan bombings or the victims of the Stardust fire and the government has never shown any appetite for it either, atrocities and negligent deaths committed in their own state.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: dublin7 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:44 AM
I don't vote SF but there is clearly an agenda against them in the media. The Irish Independent for example uses any chance it can to have a go at the party and/or it members.

FF & FG have had their opportunities at governing the country and alot of people are looking for something different which SF are now taking advantage of. Irish politics is a murky world. FG happy to business with Michael Lowry, who frankly should be in jail for getting Denis O'Brien the mobile licence.  Haughey living a life of a king on tax payers money, Bertie getting money from "betting on the horses"

I don't remember the Irish governments doing anything when Irish catholics were being burned out of the homes in the north. If they'd stepped in when they were needed SF wouldn't exist today.

 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: tbrick18 on February 05, 2020, 10:38:53 AM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 10:48:22 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on February 05, 2020, 10:54:10 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Odious man
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:03:21 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Cavan19 on February 05, 2020, 11:07:03 AM
Quote
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Because not everyone who is homeless lives on the street.  A 30 year old living with their parents can be classed as homeless. Britney who is fond of a length and has 3 kids with 3 different men and living with mammy and daddy is classified as homeless along with her kids.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: mrdeeds on February 05, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:14 AM
Especially as we'll all be living in €65,000 houses, will have no tax to pay, everything will be free.......
Why didnt someone think of all this before?
Who said 1977?

Lad, what slightly irritates me is this snobbery around SF's lack of financial know how. I mean when you consider the mess the country is in today, homelessness, a childrens hospital out of control and hospital services that are almost 3rd world (to name a few) brought to you by the financial experts in FF and FG. Who are they or their supporters to throw stones. They have royally fucked the country. For christ sake FF ran it to bankruptcy and had the IMF in and their leader was a minister in that government!

You’ve never been to a 3rd world if you think the health service, level of homelessness and what is being spent on a children’s hospital are 3rd world.

Read what I wrote again,  slowly
Health service will only get worse under SF, because they will damage the economy. Anti-European, anti-business, anti-entrepreneur = anti-jobs.
We've full employment, tax takes are booming. Tax rates are extremely low for the low paid and progressive (high) for the well paid. Minimum wage is second highest in Europe.
Health service is a long way short, but Slaintecare is the best plan we've had. Throwing money at it on it's own won't work, but finally we've a thought-out plan that should improve things considerably.

Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Not enough houses are being built, specially social and affordable housing. So rents go up. This means that those with money get first dibs and everyone below them settles for a level below what they used to, meaning eventually working families pop out the bottom.

This situation suits FG as landlords make like bandits and those impacted can't vote them out as they are homeless
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:14:41 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:16:48 AM
Briege Quinn on the Stephen Nolan show this morning calling on Conor Murphy to quit and Doug Beattie and Jim Allister on now doing the same. The story has now grown legs since last night and Conor Murphy could now be under serious pressure.

Jim Allister is on the Nolan Show???



FFS. People still listen to that tripe?

Whether it is opportunistic or not it does show how the media set the news agenda. They can dictate what and how news is reported. The Paul Quinn case has lay dormant for 13 years but has been resurrected a few days out from an election and I am sure there are others that could have been brought up. SF were always going to have to deal with the remnants of the troubles for a generation or more and will probably now suffer at the polling booths as a result which was always the intention. Paul Quinn's death has effectively been used as a political football for those who aren't really genuinely bothered about his family's plight for the rest of the time.
The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I’ll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that’s the disgusting thing about it all.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:19:23 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.

The problem is the rental market. Private landlords are making an absolute killing out of it, young people who are working in decent jobs are paying extortionate rents and unable to get access to mortgages to afford a house of their own so they will continue to be drained by the rental market. FF/FG policy has incentivised wealthy people and vulture funds to hoard residential property as investments as they can hugely profit out of a crazy rental market.

What policy have government brought in to regulate and control this rental market? Very little and the little they have has been full of loopholes as the rental market continues to rise and landlords continue to find ways to increase the rental prices.

There is also the little commented about fact that there are over 60 sitting FF/FG TDs who are residential landlords and who stand to benefit from an out of control rental market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:20:03 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:21:06 AM

The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I’ll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that’s the disgusting thing about it all.

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:22:24 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: north_antrim_hound on February 05, 2020, 11:23:09 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won’t give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:25:23 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.

As have the Labour party in the past.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: macdanger2 on February 05, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.

I don't think anyone is pulling SF up on the pensions issue other than saying that not increasing the pension age isn't a solution. It would seem from what you posted above that the changes made in 2013 have at least improved the situation
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: trueblue1234 on February 05, 2020, 11:28:34 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

Perhaps economics wasn't your strongest subject. The people in the good jobs outbid people in the less well paid jobs for the available accommodation. Employment has risen quickly in recent years and wages have risen, the amount of accommodation couldn't increase as quickly.

The problem is the rental market. Private landlords are making an absolute killing out of it, young people who are working in decent jobs are paying extortionate rents and unable to get access to mortgages to afford a house of their own so they will continue to be drained by the rental market. FF/FG policy has incentivised wealthy people and vulture funds to hoard residential property as investments as they can hugely profit out of a crazy rental market.

What policy have government brought in to regulate and control this rental market? Very little and the little they have has been full of loopholes as the rental market continues to rise and landlords continue to find ways to increase the rental prices.

There is also the little commented about fact that there are over 60 sitting FF/FG TDs who are residential landlords and who stand to benefit from an out of control rental market.
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?     
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:30:34 AM
How exactly did FF and FG "create the pension crisis"?
By not legalising Euthanasia?
By not making Euthanasia compulsory?

Jases Angelo you're shinnerbotism at its worst ::)

Well first of all, I'd like to draw attention to the idiocy of this post.

You seem to be alluding to the fact that the pension crisis was a magical creation that happened out of thin air? The contradiction here is that you are ashamed to admit your FF/FG allegiance, yet you are one of their most ardent apologists here, consistently out here defending the indefensible for them.

The pensions crisis arose from gross mismanagement by both FF/FG. You obviously seem to be under the delusion that government makes no policy on pension contributions and entitlements, that government takes no role in fiscal management and that government and that government takes no responsibility for forward planning and contingencies when it comes to meeting those entitlements. A government in your eyes does not take any accountability for the gross incompetence and abuse of power that FF/FG have had throughout their control on the state.

The real roots of the pension issue are the bloated public sector pensions that the two establishment parties introduced and failed to address before it was too late and a pension crisis ensued.

Wink wink, nudge nudge politics that FF and FG engage in is the type of government that will bring you from one scandal into the next and I guess they're chuffed to know they'll still have a few village idiots like yourself to put a tick beside them in the ballot box.

The fact you're spouting on about euthanasia shows the level of intelligence of your average FF/FG hick.

It's a global issue largely related to demographic changes i.e. people living longer and having fewer children, therefore more pensioners with less working people to support them.
It is not an Irish or FF/FG specific issue.
The SF "solution" that "demographics will look after it" is laughable! The demographic changes are what has caused the problem! Mary-Lou reckons having SF in office will mean we'll suddenly revert to having 5 kids per household.

That's not true though, it's a bloated public service pension that is a crux of the matter and neither FF or FG took any steps to tackle the system until it was too late.

The old scheme, which applies to those hired before 2013, offers those on full 40-year service a pension equal to 50 per cent of final salary, index linked to future public pay increases and with a tax-free lump sum of 1½ times annual salary on retirement.

So someone on around €66,000 with full service would get a tax-free lump sum of around €100,000 on departure, and then a generous pension entitlement. This has generally been an unfunded pay-as-you scheme, though some groups, including teachers, have paid contributions. It is, on any calculation, an extraordinary perk.


First, a new scheme was created, the so-called single scheme, which pared back the entitlements for those joining after January 1st, 2013. Pensions for newer entrants are based on career average earnings, and are index-linked based on inflation rather than tied to public sector wage rises.

Second, a pension-related deduction was introduced for public servants as one of the crisis measures, and this was subsequently transformed – in slightly less onerous form – into an ongoing additional contribution to their pension (the so-called ACS).

This has left pre-2013 public servants with a sweet deal despite the fact they are paying a bit more. The civil service pension scheme website, for example, calculates that to buy the benefits available to a higher executive officer on retirement would require someone in the private sector to have a pension pot of €690,000, while for a principal officer the sum rises to €1.34 million.


Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

I don't disagree with you on the pensions but is any party willing to address it?

I don't know.

But I think pulling up SF on it when ignoring the parties that caused it the first place is as blinkered as it gets.

I don't think anyone is pulling SF up on the pensions issue other than saying that not increasing the pension age isn't a solution. It would seem from what you posted above that the changes made in 2013 have at least improved the situation

The poster I initially pulled up on was, the crux of the matter is a badly managed, overinflated and unfunded public service pension is the cause of this issue brought to you by FF and FG. Should people who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes be punitively punished in order to pay for the big pensions of those who benefit from the mismanagement of FG and FF?

They haven't improved the situation, the crisis is there and it was caused by mismanagement by FF/FG.

Closing the gate after the horse has bolted comes to mind.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 05, 2020, 11:31:12 AM

The use of the killing of Paul Quinn is opportunistic to say the least. As you say no one iota of concern have people got for poor Briege Quinn nor do they actually know the facts. I need to be careful what I say but in terms of what was said by Murphy all I’ll say is that not everything is black and white. The Quinn family are being used and that’s the disgusting thing about it all.

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That’s the disgusting thing.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:32:40 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.

The government is a going concern, it doesn't make sense for them to put aside large amounts of money, which would probably have to be borrowed, to pay pensions in the future. They just put a proportion of expenditure each year towards pay and a proportion for pensions, the only issue here was that people were living longer. That said, the FF government did have a pension fund to address these issues which was then given to private sector speculators in  the crash.

Quote
The poster I initially pulled up on was, the crux of the matter is a badly managed, overinflated and unfunded public service pension is the cause of this issue brought to you by FF and FG. Should people who have worked hard all their lives and paid their taxes be punitively punished in order to pay for the big pensions of those who benefit from the mismanagement of FG and FF?

They haven't improved the situation, the crisis is there and it was caused by mismanagement by FF/FG.

Closing the gate after the horse has bolted comes to mind.

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:33:41 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That’s the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:36:20 AM

Those public sector pension levels are obscene compared to the rest of Europe.

The Irish public sector pension scheme is fairly typical of Europe and less generous than many places, e.g. Germany. The salaries in Ireland may be higher in some cases and of course politicians did get ridiculous pensions. 
The problem in Ireland is not public service pensions, but that so many in the private sector do not have pensions and the general pension is not properly pay related.

The problem is that for decades the 26 had bloated public sector pension entitlements that were completely unfunded by public sector workers. That is absolute incompetence of the highest order from the two establishment parties and the reason for the current crisis.

The government is a going concern, it doesn't make sense for them to put aside large amounts of money, which would probably have to be borrowed, to pay pensions in the future. They just put a proportion of expenditure each year towards pay and a proportion for pensions, the only issue here was that people were living longer. That said, the FF government did have a pension fund to address these issues which was then given to private sector speculators in  the crash.

That is absolute insanity.

When you offer overinflated pensions to public sector workers and you allow for it to be completely unfunded by then you give rise to a pension crisis. You are defending the indefensible here. The fact that FF then pissed away the rest of any pension fund bailing out gamblers tells you all need to know about the cause of the pension crisis.

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:37:08 AM
Will the victims of The Stardust fire or the Dublin/Monaghan bombings ever get justice and accountability?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:37:48 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

Of course, all these measures increase rent further.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:38:14 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won’t give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Its senior hurling now
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on February 05, 2020, 11:39:31 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:42:28 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:43:28 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.

Precisely.

60 FF/FG landlords in power, why would they have any interest in solving an out of control rental market?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Rossfan on February 05, 2020, 11:44:09 AM
SF should make "Angelo" their finance spokesman.
He or she is pure comedy gold.
Who do I apply to for one of the €65,000 houses?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 11:44:20 AM
Sinn Fein are running a candidate in Cavan Monaghan who married a Garda killer while he was in jail. To say the modern Sinn Fein are not really connected with violence would be wrong.

I'm sure she has learned a lesson onr that one considering he almost killed her in a domestic violence incident. You dont have to vote for Pauline Tully but I remember her as an excellent county councilor many years ago. Judging her on who she married isnt right either.

I was wondering though, how long has this connection with violence to be dorment? At what point do we forget about FF link to the old IRA and FG link to fascists, labours link to the Official IRA? 10 years, 20 years??? Why is it ok to be critical that SF werent in government in the north or dont take their seats in London but to have a major issue with them in government in the south?
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:44:36 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

Correct. It was grossly mismanaged and one of the big contributors to our public finances collapse in 2008-10.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:45:18 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:46:12 AM
SF should make "Angelo" their finance spokesman.
He or she is pure comedy gold.
Who do I apply to for one of the €65,000 houses?

Maybe FF/FG can get you to contribute more glib remarks about euthanasia and 65k houses.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 11:47:10 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That’s the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.

Conor Murphy is the current Minister for Finance in the Stormont assembly and has stood for countless elections since the Paul Quinn tragedy. Yet only now are we hearing of calls for him to resign. Why now? This isn't politicians 'striking when the iron is hot'. This is politicians using a horrible tragedy for their own political capital. The cynic in me tells me that it is a carefully orchestrated media campaign after a series of poll results showing a surge in support for SF. It is aimed at stemming the tide and might well succeed. Where have the same people calling for accountability for the Paul Quinn murder now been for the last 13 years?     
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:49:59 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where individual new investors are excluded and a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Evil Genius on February 05, 2020, 11:50:49 AM
Except that Sinn Féin were not involved in Paul Quinn's murder. That's the sort of 'shady' obfuscation that people cynically abusing his name are trying to engage in. The issue was that Conor Murphy stated Paul was involved in criminality.
By trying to deny the ineluctable link between SF and the IRA, it is you who is obfuscating.

All throughout the Troubles, SF was subordinate to the IRA Army Council, taking its instructions from them. And many leading figures were members of both, whether they acknowledged it or not. All that is known and undeniable.

Of course, now that the Troubles are over, it suits SF to pretend that there is no longer an IRA, even at the same time as their leader is pointing out that "they [IRA] haven't gone away, you know". This despite the clear evidence of continuing IRA activity after the ceasefire (eg Northern Bank robbery). Which in turn prompts the question, if the IRA were in charge of SF pre-ceasefire, aren't they still likely to be in charge post-ceasefire? After all, most of the most prominent members of SF were also known to be in the IRA.

Which brings us right back to Paul Quinn. He was murdered, without even a semblance of a "trial", in the most brutal and cruel way by the IRA. After the murder and the outrage it provoked, they tried to deny involvement, whilst tarnishing Quinn's name.

Which is where Conor Murphy comes in. He was a member of the IRA, having been found in possession of explosives and convicted of that and IRA membership, incidentally after a trial of the sort denied to Quinn. And he, in his capacity as a leading member of SF, was part of the campaign to blacken Quinn's name, in order to "exonerate" his old pals in the IRA.

All of which might be just about understandable, if not acceptable, if Murphy were no longer prominent in SF and/or if he had expressed any sort of regret or made any genuine attempt at reconciling his past with his present and future.

But as eg the relatively recent case of his sectarian appointment of Sean Hogan to  to be Head of Northern Ireland Water* demonstrated, by any standards such a person should never be permitted to be anywhere near any normal democratic political party, never mind be entrusted to a very senior position. And until or unless the Party clearly distances itself from that sort of representative and those sorts of practices, it must call into serious question exactly how they should be entrusted with ordinary peoples' votes.

Which, whether "opportunistic" or not, is at the very heart of the other parties' drawing attention to SF's actions in the aftermath of the murder of Paul Quinn.


* - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303)
* - http://www.irishnews.com/news/employment-tribunal-criticises-ex-sinn-fein-minister-murphy-1168267 (http://www.irishnews.com/news/employment-tribunal-criticises-ex-sinn-fein-minister-murphy-1168267)
* - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20451694 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20451694)
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Itchy on February 05, 2020, 11:50:57 AM
shock horror, the establishment and there national media lapdogs are trying to smear the new kid in the playground. The Quinn family will feel justified to bring it up now when opinion suggests SF are on the cusp but as snap says the West Brit control freaks won’t give a toss for the Quinn case in a weeks time. Lost a lot of respect for Miriam O Callaghan last night, seem intent on badgering Mc Donald at every turn and constantly talking over her. Hope the southern electorate see all this for what it is and vote accordingly.
Its senior hurling now

Why would you have any respect for Miriam?

Now, last night was a set up. 1) Miriam is a FF'er, well known. 2) Leo and Michael didnt do a lot of shouting at Mary Lou because they know it looks bad men shouting down at women 3) So instead Miriam attacked her, woman on woman. That is ok you see. Notice how the other fella said damn all to Mary Lou. It is an inside job. No point moaning about it, RTE, Sindo etc are part of an establishment that are afraid of their lives of real change. Mary Lou needs to accept that and fight them all.

In addition the TV3 debate was headed by two total blueshirts, Ivan Yates (former FG TD) and Matt Cooper (Denis O Brein pet). You will find no fair play here so dont even get worried about it.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: five points on February 05, 2020, 11:51:47 AM

Briege Quinn has been blue in the face for years calling for political accountability for the torture and murder of her son.

Yes she has and where have FF and FG been for the last 13 years?  This is a dogs on the street situation but the police cannot convict anyone with that type of evidence. The dogs on the street know what happened and the dogs on the street know why it happened. Not one fcuk was given about her till she became a political weapon. That’s the disgusting thing.

In politics, you strike while the iron is hot. If Briege Quinn wants accountability now, then good luck to her if she gets it.

Conor Murphy is the current Minister for Finance in the Stormont assembly and has stood for countless elections since the Paul Quinn tragedy. Yet only now are we hearing of calls for him to resign. Why now? This isn't politicians 'striking when the iron is hot'. This is politicians using a horrible tragedy for their own political capital. The cynic in me tells me that it is a carefully orchestrated media campaign after a series of poll results showing a surge in support for SF. It is aimed at stemming the tide and might well succeed. Where have the same people calling for accountability for the Paul Quinn murder now been for the last 13 years?     

You'd prefer Briege Quinn to be silenced, wouldn't you? Water under the bridge and all that.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: weareros on February 05, 2020, 11:52:42 AM
Genuinely not having a go, as I'm not particularly up-to-speed on Irish politics and affairs, but how can there be full employment with rising levels of homelessness?
Something doesn't add up there.

A shortage of housing means that rents have gone through the roof so that even people with jobs may not be able to afford rent / may have f*ck all leftover after paying rent. Increasing the supply of housing (increased supply to meet demand will reduce rent) is basically the only way to resolve this but that takes time
They have had 8 years. The housing market works exactly as designed.

8 years would never solve it given we required an 80 billion bailout to cover the costs of bad mortgages - ie Irish people who took out property loans they could not afford, and Irish developers who borrowed money up to their arse to build property that the said mortgage holders could not pay back, nor could they. On top of that, many of those in the trade headed to Australia, Canada and US, and never came back.

One also only has to look at life in some of those ghost estates like in parts of Roscommon (low income families in shitty housing) to know it’s a very bad idea to lump 100,000 low income all together in public land in shitty housing. It’s no way to raise a family. We need to allow x percentage of new developments be affordable so low income can have pride of home instead of sentencing them to slums. But I don’t know how anyone thinks this could have been solved following the collapse of our economy over property craziness and it’s amazing our economy has itself recovered so quickly. But as a country we do amnesia well, except the old joke: we never forget our grudges.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: Angelo on February 05, 2020, 11:54:01 AM
There has been changes in the north over the last number of years with regards to how much of your rental income can be offset against the finance (Mortgage) which has made buy to let much less appealing. In the South can you still offset the full mortgage against the rental income? Surely some changes along those lines will have an impact?   

That was tried in 2009, when only 75% of the mortgage interest was allowed against tax. It backfired as it scared off new investors. A few years later we had a housing shortage which through neglect has morphed into a full blown disaster.

Scared off investors? The rental market continues to spiral out of control. Vulture funds and investors continue to hover up property and profit from that rental market.

Yes, it has scared off investors and the result is a cartel where a small number of conglomerates are hoovering up properties and putting themselves into a position where they can control the market. These groups lobbied for rent controls and hoodwinked idiot "housing charities" to support them.

The problem is that investors are interested in properties as a commodity and to generate wealth from those. there should be legislation that prohibits residential property being acquired by people who aren't going to occupy that residence but that doesn't suit the wealthy and the landlords as they can cream the current rental crisis.
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: armaghniac on February 05, 2020, 11:57:13 AM

The public service pension was not mismanaged and  is neither here nor there in this discussion.

Not mismanaged? It was overly generous to public sector workers and completely unfunded by them. How on earth can you say it was not mismanaged when there's now complete pay inequality in the public sector and the next generation are the ones who pay the price to fund these overinflated pensions?

People get half their pay as a pension, this seems a reasonable and proper thing, rather than overly generous. Other proper pensions should also provide this and many did.
The pay inequality in the public sector is not justified now that the economy has recovered. 
Title: Re: 26 County General Election 2020
Post by: yellowcard on February 05, 2020, 12:03:38 PM