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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM

Title: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on October 29, 2019, 02:24:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 29, 2019, 02:29:40 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

Probably no nationalist representation again in any institution in which they have a vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:35:37 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on October 29, 2019, 02:44:18 PM
Would love to see the loyalist gunrunning terrorist's bike of a daughter out on her ear, that would be nice.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on October 29, 2019, 02:49:08 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 02:56:34 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed

It'll hardly make any difference - they'll say Save the Union Vote DUP anyway and they'll return 9 or 10.

Key point is whether, they'll be needed after the election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on October 29, 2019, 03:19:17 PM
Hopefully the DUP will lose their influence in Parliament no matter what, I'd rather see a Tory majority than a repeat of the last couple of years.

UK wide it should be very interesting, bound to be near impossible for Pollsters to predict with so many unknowns. It's not long ago they were talking about giving a unity remainer candidate a clear run in the PM's constituency of Uxbridge!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 29, 2019, 03:44:12 PM
Hopefully the DUP will lose their influence in Parliament no matter what, I'd rather see a Tory majority than a repeat of the last couple of years.

UK wide it should be very interesting, bound to be near impossible for Pollsters to predict with so many unknowns. It's not long ago they were talking about giving a unity remainer candidate a clear run in the PM's constituency of Uxbridge!

Here in NI I suspect it will be same old same old.
Expect the next few weeks to be a barrage of 'themmuns' and saving the union. Mindnumbing.

Across the water I seriously hope Johnston gets fucked out on his ear.

The amount of shite he has said and been involved might make Trump blush but nothing is sticking unfortunately or more likely the media/papers are failing to report it sufficiently which means the masses are none the wiser
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on October 29, 2019, 04:02:56 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2019, 04:15:23 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Remain has been polling well ahead of Leave for the last 3 years
Johnson is taking a huge risk

Ashcroft polled people in NI on Brexit back in September

97% of nationalists and 12% of Huns said it was important for the UK to Remain.

But that was before Boris Johnson shafted the DUP and put the customs border in between Ballymena and Birmingham.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 04:33:27 PM
This is the bit I don't get.

A Unionist pact is to strengthen the union but a Nationalist pact is just turning the election into a sectarian headcount.

Has the Remain ship sailed in the HOC?

It's either BoJo's deal or no Deal as far as I can see.
Remain has been polling well ahead of Leave for the last 3 years
Johnson is taking a huge risk

Ashcroft polled people in NI on Brexit back in September

97% of nationalists and 12% of Huns said it was important for the UK to Remain.

But that was before Boris Johnson shafted the DUP and put the customs border in between Ballymena and Birmingham.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/

Which is the bit I dont really get, makes me think that they have something up their sleeve?
in saying that BoJo will have a thirst for elections as he thinks he can campaign well and he has always done well at the polls. The Tories are the leading party at the polls, they are going up against a divided bunch on the remain side, while only the Brexit party can hurt them on Brexit... or maybe the DUP will be running those ads again
Also Cummings will be leading the campaign no doubt so he will have thought about the scenarios and have the manipulative tricks ready to go
There is a difference this time in that they are the incumbents and poll leader so they will have to win from the front. Also their opponents  know all about them and should be ready... tho wouldn't count on it.

On a serious note tho will BoJo be running in Ruislip seems like a risky enough seat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: lurganblue on October 29, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
MPs to vote for an amendment giving 16 and 17-year olds and EU nationals the vote... cant see that passing. If it does there'll be no election for ages.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Caitlin on October 29, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
The way I see it;

SDLP will run candidates in all constituencies but not put much effort in to the seats currently held by SF, North Belfast, East Belfast or the clear cut DUP seats.
SF will run in all constituencies.
UUP will run in all seats but more effort in where they have a chance- South Antrim and Upper Bann.
DUP will run in all constituencies.
Alliance and the Greens may do some trading to allow Alliance free run in East Belfast - and possibly allow Danny Kinahan and Sylvia Hermon free runs in South Antrim and North Down.

The greatest chance of a change to current position is in;
South Belfast- Claire Hanna is an excellent candidate for SDLP and if SF have any sense they will run a light campaign- the only challenge to this will be O'Muilleor's ego, which is considerable.
North Belfast-John Finucane is also an excellent candidate but won't take his seat so may not attract so much support across the board
Foyle- Colum Eastwood must be in with a chance
East Belfast- Naomi Long is an excellent candidate and has a strong chance
South Antrim- Danny Kinahan has a strong chance
North Down - Sylvia Hermon is an excellent candidate but will be under pressure
South Down- Chris Hazard will be too strong for whoever SDLP put up- pity SF don't take their seats.

In an ideal world-
DUP lose 4 seats cutting their representation to 6
SF retain all seats bar Foyle , pick up N Belfast and take their seats- total of 7 allows them to claim they're the biggest party.
SDLP claim back Foyle and South Belfast - total of 2
UUP claim back South Antrim- 1
Alliance pick up East Belfast- 1
Sylvia holds North Down- 1

Belfast has no unionist MPs
Boris has no majority
Labour do well enough but gets rid of Corbyn and elect a decent leader who understands Ireland- Conor McGinn would be good!
Lib Dems do well
Brexit party disappears
UK parliament votes to have a second referendum which ends up 70% for remain

I can but dream

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 29, 2019, 06:21:21 PM
MPs to vote for an amendment giving 16 and 17-year olds and EU nationals the vote... cant see that passing. If it does there'll be no election for ages.

Bojo said he will pull bill if this is passed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 29, 2019, 06:34:50 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

Expected in November - so any day now unless DUP/UDA get it delayed

It'll hardly make any difference - they'll say Save the Union Vote DUP anyway and they'll return 9 or 10.

Key point is whether, they'll be needed after the election.

And so will the weather.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on October 29, 2019, 06:53:18 PM
Would love to see the loyalist gunrunning terrorist's bike of a daughter out on her ear, that would be nice.

The problem is that you potentially have the likes of Hanna, Bradshaw, Bailey O'Muilleoir all lining up. If they all enter the field, then Little will probably get in again. I haven't voted in years but, if they get an agreed candidate out of that lot, I would vote for anyone, just to get thon bitter twisted bitch out on her arse & picking up the dole.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on October 29, 2019, 07:47:31 PM
Upper Bann could be interesting, if Doug Beattie can make inroads into Dodgy Davy Simpson there is a slight possibility John O’Dowd could take it especially if the stoops didn’t run.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 29, 2019, 07:50:13 PM
This is from 2017 but has held up well

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/francesca-martinez/how-to-vote-general-election_b_16960884.html
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on October 29, 2019, 07:54:04 PM
Like a dog returning to its own vomit, voters in the North look set to go to the polls for a third time this year.

As things currently stand the DUP hold 10 seats, SF 7 and Independent Unionist 1.

What changes, if any, can we expect to see after yet another election. Will the SDLP step aside in north Belfast and give Finucane a clear run? Can the current loyalist weapons dump withstand the tidal wave of support for Naomi Long in south Belfast. What other changes are possible throughout the six counties between now and Election Day?

When is the RHI report out?

In the time honoured "Yes, Minister" way, will it now be well after the election's over?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 07:56:42 PM
The way I see it;

SDLP will run candidates in all constituencies but not put much effort in to the seats currently held by SF, North Belfast, East Belfast or the clear cut DUP seats.
SF will run in all constituencies.
UUP will run in all seats but more effort in where they have a chance- South Antrim and Upper Bann.
DUP will run in all constituencies.
Alliance and the Greens may do some trading to allow Alliance free run in East Belfast - and possibly allow Danny Kinahan and Sylvia Hermon free runs in South Antrim and North Down.

The greatest chance of a change to current position is in;
South Belfast- Claire Hanna is an excellent candidate for SDLP and if SF have any sense they will run a light campaign- the only challenge to this will be O'Muilleor's ego, which is considerable.
North Belfast-John Finucane is also an excellent candidate but won't take his seat so may not attract so much support across the board
Foyle- Colum Eastwood must be in with a chance
East Belfast- Naomi Long is an excellent candidate and has a strong chance
South Antrim- Danny Kinahan has a strong chance
North Down - Sylvia Hermon is an excellent candidate but will be under pressure
South Down- Chris Hazard will be too strong for whoever SDLP put up- pity SF don't take their seats.

In an ideal world-
DUP lose 4 seats cutting their representation to 6
SF retain all seats bar Foyle , pick up N Belfast and take their seats- total of 7 allows them to claim they're the biggest party.
SDLP claim back Foyle and South Belfast - total of 2
UUP claim back South Antrim- 1
Alliance pick up East Belfast- 1
Sylvia holds North Down- 1

Belfast has no unionist MPs
Boris has no majority
Labour do well enough but gets rid of Corbyn and elect a decent leader who understands Ireland- Conor McGinn would be good!
Lib Dems do well
Brexit party disappears
UK parliament votes to have a second referendum which ends up 70% for remain

I can but dream
[/quote

Could this not be turned into a Ref. on Brexit if the SDLP, Alliance, SF and Greens get their act together or is there too many egoes in the room?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 08:28:01 PM
It’s doing my nut in already some Tory **** on talking about their message of “getting Brexit done, an extra 20,000 policemen and more funding for the NHS and Education”

As if it wasn’t the Tories austerity that culled the police numbers and defunded the NHS and education  in the first place... also they’ve had a majority for 3 years and couldn’t deliver Brexit how is it possible these horrible b**tards are going to be returned with a majority??!!

We get destroyed for saying people who voted for Brexit are stupid well they’re not exactly helping their case!!

I think Boris will get in too!!  :'(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on October 29, 2019, 08:48:23 PM
It’s doing my nut in already some Tory **** on talking about their message of “getting Brexit done, an extra 20,000 policemen and more funding for the NHS and Education”

As if it wasn’t the Tories austerity that culled the police numbers and defunded the NHS and education  in the first place... also they’ve had a majority for 3 years and couldn’t deliver Brexit how is it possible these horrible b**tards are going to be returned with a majority??!!

We get destroyed for saying people who voted for Brexit are stupid well they’re not exactly helping their case!!

I think Boris will get in too!!  :'(
Seen a post today that the 20,000 extra police won’t even cover those that will retire. The Tories are absolute vile and how anyone could vote for them is beyond me, but similar to the DUP here they’ll throw out the usual crap about the other side and idiots will still vote for them, even though they are a pack of self serving fools who couldn’t give a toss about the average Joe Bloggs. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 09:06:50 PM
More voting cards to light the fire with.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: uimhr ocht on October 29, 2019, 09:08:34 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on October 29, 2019, 09:21:51 PM
If SF and SDLP don’t get a pact going, feck the lot of them, I won’t be voting ... and I’ve been voting SF for ever and a day .... but not anymore unless they and the SDLP get their act together and ensure some of the DUP/UDA lose their seats.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 29, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 29, 2019, 09:34:52 PM
2 of the previous 3 Nationalist posters not voting.
That'll only help DUPUDA  >:(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:28:56 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don’t get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 29, 2019, 10:49:04 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don’t get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
A united Ireland means abortion and SSM
What's the big issue with those

They only affect you if you're pregnant or gay
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
Need RHI report published in November and plenty of DUP brexit party,right wing ERG loving comments,they would loved a hardest of hard borders in Ireland if they have got away with it,pengelly,dodds,robinson,could be ousted if managed properly.

Most important thing is that nationalists come out and vote - I get a sense already that unionists have/are getting people on the register and I think that every election from here on in will mean that unionists  will be voting in huge numbers I think.

Pro EU parties need to sort their act out over next week and give people an option: a Pro EU candidate or the DUP.

Simple as that.

Back to sectarian voting again to get SF in. Are people expected to forget about their pro-abortion and pro-SSM stance, as long as it means themmuns don’t get in?

No thank you. SF can go f**k themselves.
A united Ireland means abortion and SSM
What's the big issue with those

They only affect you if you're pregnant or gay

No it doesn’t. They’ve been brought in, and there’s still no sign of a United Ireland.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:04:06 PM
f**k SF same auld shite anyone who comes to my door looking a vote for Westminster will be getting short shrift.

To me it’s still the most bizarre situation. I can see voting for them locally and for Europe but there is literally no other reason to vote for them in Westminster than to make sure themmuns don’t get in.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 29, 2019, 11:05:48 PM
f**king Lib Dem’s talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: The Trap on October 29, 2019, 11:06:54 PM
Elisha on spotlight would make you vote SF  :'(
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 11:07:26 PM
f**k SF same auld shite anyone who comes to my door looking a vote for Westminster will be getting short shrift.

To me it’s still the most bizarre situation. I can see voting for them locally and for Europe but there is literally no other reason to vote for them in Westminster than to make sure themmuns don’t get in.

Add in the fact that a large chunk of those who vote for them dont even want to be seen to be associated with them because of the ex-parliamentary connection and the thickness their candidates exhibit
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 29, 2019, 11:18:38 PM
IMO if you feel none of the candidates in your area are worth voting for, at least go to the polling station, get your ballot paper, spoil it so that it is impossible for any candidate to claim that it is a vote for them, and just politely place it in the box. You rarely see it over here, but most candidates and election officials will be alarmed at an unusually high percentage of spoiled ballot papers as it is deemed an active form of protest against the candidates, and more effective than just not bothering to vote.

Indeed, unless there is no way you're able to on the day and a postal vote isn't an option, anyone whom refuses to go out to a polling station to vote for any candidate or at least spoil the paper loses any right to complain about those whom are elected as a result.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on October 29, 2019, 11:46:54 PM
f**king Lib Dem’s talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!

Sometimes I wonder is there any sense left
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 29, 2019, 11:49:01 PM
IMO if you feel none of the candidates in your area are worth voting for, at least go to the polling station, get your ballot paper, spoil it so that it is impossible for any candidate to claim that it is a vote for them, and just politely place it in the box. You rarely see it over here, but most candidates and election officials will be alarmed at an unusually high percentage of spoiled ballot papers as it is deemed an active form of protest against the candidates, and more effective than just not bothering to vote.

Indeed, unless there is no way you're able to on the day and a postal vote isn't an option, anyone whom refuses to go out to a polling station to vote for any candidate or at least spoil the paper loses any right to complain about those whom are elected as a result.

And at least those of us who don’t vote, can’t be held responsible for the shitshow that unfolds in front of our eyes. Those who voted are guilty of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 30, 2019, 01:13:45 AM
This place has been a shambles right from the plantation. It got worse with the formation of the Orange Order at the start of the 19th century. Every English man in charge has scratched head to try and solve the issue. They actually thought that partition fixed it with the guaranteed majority and gerrymandering. But alas, even that does not work any more.

Therefore I urge you to vote and vote nationalist. Imagine what we could do if we put fighting behind us and everyone pulled in the same direction.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 30, 2019, 01:21:49 AM
IMO if you feel none of the candidates in your area are worth voting for, at least go to the polling station, get your ballot paper, spoil it so that it is impossible for any candidate to claim that it is a vote for them, and just politely place it in the box. You rarely see it over here, but most candidates and election officials will be alarmed at an unusually high percentage of spoiled ballot papers as it is deemed an active form of protest against the candidates, and more effective than just not bothering to vote.

Indeed, unless there is no way you're able to on the day and a postal vote isn't an option, anyone whom refuses to go out to a polling station to vote for any candidate or at least spoil the paper loses any right to complain about those whom are elected as a result.

And at least those of us who don’t vote, can’t be held responsible for the shitshow that unfolds in front of our eyes. Those who voted are guilty of it.

Not doing something doesn't mean that you abdicate your responsibility - you're just letting others do it for you, at best.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 01:26:47 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: hardstation on October 30, 2019, 08:20:47 AM
f**k SF same auld shite anyone who comes to my door looking a vote for Westminster will be getting short shrift.

To me it’s still the most bizarre situation. I can see voting for them locally and for Europe but there is literally no other reason to vote for them in Westminster than to make sure themmuns don’t get in.
Lots of people really don’t want themmuns in.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on October 30, 2019, 08:22:21 AM
f**king Lib Dem’s talking about gaining a majority or Jo Swinson leading a minority government... Jesus wept!!!

Woman's head is up her hole, I hope they get wiped out.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 09:45:12 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 10:17:30 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on October 30, 2019, 10:42:02 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

If they did take their seats can you imagine the abuse they would get within parliament. Every time they'd try to speak you'd get all kinds of jeers and cheap shots thrown at them. People know when they vote for Sinn Fein in Westminster elections that they will not be taking their seat. It hardly comes are any suprise or great shock. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.

 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 10:45:30 AM
I understand all that but then what is the point??

A protest vote? Sinn Fein should not be running anywhere there is a marginal seat for the DUP and should leave it to SDLP/Alliance
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 30, 2019, 11:16:26 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 11:17:58 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.

Sounds like Tories might leave the Brexit party alone in the Labour/Leave seats in the North . . .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 11:21:53 AM
I understand all that but then what is the point??

A protest vote? Sinn Fein should not be running anywhere there is a marginal seat for the DUP and should leave it to SDLP/Alliance

I would say the way it works is - whoever is currently in that seat should be first choice.  That'd only be fair.

Otherwise then share them out on a pro-rata basis.  Parties, and the 'MPs' are very egotistical and won't back down, therefore unless, pro EU parties have a pact, the DUP will take the seats.

E.g. Let Alliance stand in EB with no SDLP/SF candidates and advise their voters accordingly.

Time for real leadership!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 11:52:23 AM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It’s already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don’t take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 11:59:57 AM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don’t deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 30, 2019, 12:12:19 PM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don’t deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.

Remaining isn't extreme. . . it's the status quo!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Chief on October 30, 2019, 12:17:44 PM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It’s already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don’t take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I’m no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of “traditional” republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF’s “ridiculous” position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can’t demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn’t even show up, then they don’t deserve to be elected.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 30, 2019, 12:26:51 PM
The idea that O'Connell and Parnell should have sat on their arses at home 150-200 years ago rather than go to the House of Commons and achieve real and lasting results for the Irish people is beyond parody.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It’s already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don’t take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I’m no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of “traditional” republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF’s “ridiculous” position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can’t demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn’t even show up, then they don’t deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can’t vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you’re going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: hardstation on October 30, 2019, 12:37:18 PM
I thought people were laughing at the DUP in Westminster. Who can we vote for that will nullify the DUP in Westminster? What is there to nullify?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 12:47:13 PM
I thought people were laughing at the DUP in Westminster. Who can we vote for that will nullify the DUP in Westminster? What is there to nullify?

Their voting, for a start.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 30, 2019, 01:15:03 PM
With respect to the election in Britain, the Lib Dem argument is a strange one. Clearly they are trying to go for the extreme on the remain side, with the one issue revoke message, which may pick up a few seats for them which could put them in a powerful position of holding the sway of power. But if they end up in a coalition and don’t deliver revoke then its university fees all over again for them and their credibility is gone again with those that voted for them.

Remaining isn't extreme. . . it's the status quo!!!

Remaining isn’t extreme, revoking without a referendum is.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on October 30, 2019, 01:44:55 PM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It’s already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don’t take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I’m no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of “traditional” republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF’s “ridiculous” position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can’t demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn’t even show up, then they don’t deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can’t vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you’re going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.

One point I agree with SF is no matter if it was 100% vote against Brexit in the north, it'd have made no difference at all.

Irish lives do not matter to London and their government.
The DUP were used , then turfed under the bus.  Anybody who think London care for Irish people and businesses etc, then more fool them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on October 30, 2019, 01:47:22 PM
The idea that O'Connell and Parnell should have sat on their arses at home 150-200 years ago rather than go to the House of Commons and achieve real and lasting results for the Irish people is beyond parody.

The english didn't want catholic emancipation. That battle was fought on two fronts - in westminster and with violence at home (ribbon men, white boys etc etc)

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2019, 02:09:05 PM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?
Scotland is a case of what seats if any the SNP don't get.
England -will the Remiam people all vote LibDem?
Wales -hopefully Plaid increase their votes and seats.
People talking about a hung Parliament again.

If it's a majority made up of Labour/Lib Dem/SNP thery can legislate for a second referendum
If the Tories lose Brexit is goosed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on October 30, 2019, 02:17:12 PM
They probably won't lose though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 30, 2019, 02:30:56 PM
They probably won't lose though.
They are going to lose 8 at least in Scotland
10 of the rebels have been readmitted/21 Some are retiring . Say 5 lost
The Libdems should pick up a few in SW England
A lot of women hate Boris Johnson.
#SeniorHurling
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 30, 2019, 06:23:21 PM
The Bennys of the World are responsible for sending 10 of them 17th Century yojkes to Westminster.

SF voters are responsible for sending no northern voice to Westminster.

Everybody knows that before they vote - they'd get some abuse if they took their seats in London.  It'd be a farce.

Anybody idea of what way the votes will stack up in England, Scotland and Wales re: seats for each party or is it going to be too hard to guage?

It’s already a farce. They go to the bother of running for election, then don’t take their seats.

Do SF sound any more ridiculous spouting their shite outside Westminster than they would, in it?

I’m no lover of SF but your point is tiresome. Abstentionism from Westminster has been a basic principle of “traditional” republicanism for nearly 100 years now, therefore the electorate know exactly what they are doing & what they are getting when they cast their vote for an abstentionist party. The Brexit context does not change this.

If SF’s “ridiculous” position of abstentionism appeals to voters more than every other party who actually want to take their seat, then the fault lies with all the other parties, not SF.

Of course SF will take every electoral opportunity to illustrate their mandate.

If other parties can’t demonstrate why they would be more effective than a party that doesn’t even show up, then they don’t deserve to be elected.

Yes, but you can’t vote for SF, then bitch and moan because the DUP are behaving like a bunch of tits in Westminster.

If you’re going to vote, then vote for someone who will at least nullify the DUP in Westminster.

One point I agree with SF is no matter if it was 100% vote against Brexit in the north, it'd have made no difference at all.

Irish lives do not matter to London and their government.
The DUP were used , then turfed under the bus.  Anybody who think London care for Irish people and businesses etc, then more fool them.

English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish people do not matter to London.

There is no Irish voice in Westminster (unionists are British). There are Brexit issues here, legacy, economy etc. Why don’t SF pull out, and get behind SDLP, who will sit in Westminster? At least there will be an Irish nationalist voice fighting for people. God knows what families of legacy issues, in particular, think of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 12:36:16 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 31, 2019, 12:51:29 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

I see your point about it being the first steps to a UI which would be the end goal but my immediate concern would be the short term pain you speak about.
Its ok to sit back and say that when it wont duly affect you - NI will be a complete mess, economically speaking, with many Brexit outcomes (hard or not).

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on October 31, 2019, 12:55:31 PM
If I was a voting in a area where the seat was up for grabs id be changing my vote from SF to SDLP this time.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on October 31, 2019, 01:10:45 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

The fact that Brexit was a a back door to a UI dawned on the nationalist population of the 6 counties a very long time ago. Before the referendum.  Believe me, we are all acutely aware of it.  The problem is the a border poll and a UI is essentially in the gift of the British gov't and people are not prepared to be pauperised for decade(s) until they finally accede to the the demands for it.

Are people like you aware of the demographic trends in the 6 counties?  If so, you should be aware of what most nationalists here are - a UI is very much achievable in the medium term - without decimating the (already poor) economy.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on October 31, 2019, 01:15:05 PM
If I was a voting in a area where the seat was up for grabs id be changing my vote from SF to SDLP this time.
I'm in North Belfast where the SDLP has no hope, so switching my vote to SF is the only way to have a chance of unseating Dodds.  If it was Alliance in strong second, I'd switch to them instead.  As it is, I'd rather have no one than Dodds. 
Extraordinary times, extraordinary measures. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 01:18:34 PM
Taylor and Frank.....what you are saying, I completely understand...I trade with companies in the north and travel frequently up there, so I am no stranger to reality.
However, your suggestion, that the short term pain would be hard to stomach, rings alarms bells with me......and those alarms are in the event of a border poll, just as we saw play out in Scotland, a percentage of Northern Caths/Nationalists, especially civil servants, may fear jumping from a safe job environment into the unknown of a UI and the leakage of the 5 to 7% could be the difference between the Union staying or a UI....in other words too many are selfish voters and are happy to ignore the bigger picture.

The smart arses in the DUP have walked into their own Brexit trap and it would be a dreadful irony if the nationalist votes(anti Brexit) proved to be the release mechanism for the DUPers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on October 31, 2019, 01:26:56 PM
Taylor and Frank.....what you are saying, I completely understand...I trade with companies in the north and travel frequently up there, so I am no stranger to reality.
However, your suggestion, that the short term pain would be hard to stomach, rings alarms bells with me......and those alarms are in the event of a border poll, just as we saw play out in Scotland, a percentage of Northern Caths/Nationalists, especially civil servants, may fear jumping from a safe job environment into the unknown of a UI and the leakage of the 5 to 7% could be the difference between the Union staying or a UI....in other words too many are selfish voters and are happy to ignore the bigger picture.

The smart arses in the DUP have walked into their own Brexit trap and it would be a dreadful irony if the nationalist votes(anti Brexit) proved to be the release mechanism for the DUPers.

There is nothing I hate more than the DUP but consider this..........

Brexit happens and the NI economy is decimated - you say this will be short term pain. Fair enough.

Say 5/10/15 years of an economy going down the shitter - is that worth the pain to get a UI?
Tough question for some considering during those 5/10/15 years many will struggle to put bread on the table.
A romantic view of a UI is great but the reality will be different for many families in order to get there.

Secondly, if a UI is on the cards and is going to happen one can only imagine the amount of innocent catholics that will suffer at the hands of 'themmuns' in NI.

Its not inevitable but it is a distinct possibility that the troubles or at least a version of them will return as we move towards a UI
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on October 31, 2019, 01:50:13 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

This promised land is in your head.

First, the Brits have to agree to a border poll. And when will they admit there’s sufficient support for a UI? They’ll just keep putting it off again and again.

If a UI arrives, do you think it’ll be all plain sailing? Economy, jobs, wages, healthcare etc... all tricky issues. Plus, you’ll have loyalist violence to deal with, you can be certain of that. Then you have the flag/anthem issues, and of course the Dublin government bending over backwards for the unionists (who I think will be very well treated in a UI. Probably more so than in the UK).
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on October 31, 2019, 03:06:27 PM
lads the idea of a UI may be pie in the sky, nonetheless, one must start examining likely outcomes in the event materialising.

firstly, you must acknowledge that for Unionists, the loyal Union is everything in their life, the DNA profile is all Union, and nothing, socially or economically trumps the Union loyalty.  Yes, the Unionists are the descendants of planters from 250 odd years ago, unfortunately they are now here in NI for 6,7 or 8 family generations and bedded in and in most cases, they may have lost contact with their Scottish origins. In other words, they have no where to go for comfort.

If a Border Poll was conducted, one would fancy that the Irish Government would engineer a position in which both the EU & the USA were vested parties/safeguarders of the result. 
If that poll resulted in a decision in favour of a UI, then as suggested by Benny, there would be loyalist outrage and violence and plenty of innocent victims.
I would expect that the UK parliament would respect the result, and what could well happen is that either the EU(who will shortly have an EU army) or the US would step in as a peace keeping force to stem the violence....the irony here, being that the Brit army of the 70s gets replaced by a green leaning army.
What happens on the unionist front? so they all relocate and concentrate in North Down, Lisburn, Ballymena, and we end up with a kind of Cyprus arrangement?...in that like the Turks in Cyprus, they would never accept a Dublin government, yet refuse to leave their loyalist ghettos.

In the "you got to break eggs to make an omelette", when geographic territory changes, there are winners and losers in the process....Yugoslavia disintegrated quickly, yet Croatia and Slovenia rapidly got on their feet.  If a UI emerged, I would fancy on the economic front, the EU & Us lend significant support to help and that aspect may quell teething troubles.

You may not agree with the above airy fairy forecast, if you don't, perhaps you might lay out your vision for how the UI unfolds if a positive votes results from a poll, warts and all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2019, 03:13:09 PM
The new Anthem and new Flag of the New State ( a Confederation with 2 Home Rule areas -6 and 26 Cos) will be the easiest problem to sort out.
The day Scotland leaves the vile Union will be the first step.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2019, 03:30:14 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.
The NI economy is goosed so the longer it goes on the more likely a UI is. Throw in demographics. NI is doomed.

After the British government’s partition of Ireland in 1920-21, the areas in and around Belfast in the north produced about 80 per cent of the whole island’s industrial output. Now the Republic’s output is 10 times greater than Northern Ireland’s.

https://www.esri.ie/system/files/publications/OPEA173.pdf

 page 6

Munster and Leinster GDP per head is about twice that of NI and Border, Midlands,  West
 
Table 1: Per capita GDP in US dollars, constant 2010 prices, constant PPP 2000 2014

RoI: Southern & Eastern        55,991
UK: Northern Ireland             28,159
RoI: Border, Midlands West    27,369

 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on October 31, 2019, 04:21:42 PM
reading the various hopes and predictions of our friends based in ulster, what staggers me is that most of you are blind to the bigger picture.
as a southerner, who does hope for a United Ireland in my lifetime, Brexit, by accident, is the best chance of that happening.

There may be short term pain with Brexit, but if Boris manages to scramble a win in this election and get his deal through, then unless you are brain dead, what then happens is that Scotland with close to 85% of MPs from the SNP will be gagging for another independence referendum and overtime as is becoming evident, the little Englanders could not care less about NI, and that will open the door to the Border Poll.

Has it not dawned on Northern Nationalists, that in the past week, it has finally dawned on the DUPers and loyalists that Brexit could spell the end of the union, and now as we have seen this week, especially the guy on the Spotlight Special the other night, spouting the narrative that the "Union is more important than Brexit".

If you want a status quo of the north for another 50 years, then continue to pray for some mechanism that overturns Brexit.

If you wish see to the promised land of a United Ireland, then pray that Boris wins enough seats to force through the deal, which in turn sets in train the disintegration of the union.

Hard to beat being patronised to by a “southerner”.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:07:26 PM
There's a to-do list, and it needs to be completed in roughly this order:

1 - Resolve the parades issue. Get the residents and the Orange Order to sit down and agree on the terms under which Orange parades could be made welcome in catholic areas, because re-routing parades and avoiding each other like a divorced couple still living in the same house is not a long term solution. (OO to drop the sectarianism, drop the paranoia about 'popery,' drop the political activism, ban paramilitary bands from events, get involved in cross-community outreach, and reposition parades as historical commemorations rather than triumphalist celebrations. In return, residents won't object to the OO still being open to Protestants only, and won't object to a single union jack carried on a pole with a bit of dignity. For previously contentious parades, perform a ceremony in the middle of it where a protestant clergyman leading the parade shakes hands with a waiting catholic priest, exchanges gifts, or makes some sort of gesture of friendship. For the Apprentice Boys in the Lower Ormeau, lay a wreath at the Sean Graham bookies.)

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?

4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.

5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.

6 - Come up with some realistic and detailed proposals for how a UI would look. Will a state called NI continue to exist as a Special Administrative Region like Hong Kong and Macau after the handover to China? Could Stormont be retained in its present form with its convoluted power-sharing checks and balances to reassure unionists that they won't get a taste of their own "catholics need not apply" medicine?

7 - When everyone has calmed down, and it looks like reunification can be achieved peacefully and with a decent consensus in favour of it, only then have a border poll.

The shinners, on the other hand, seem to want to do it this way:

1 - Sit on your asses and allow the UK to crash out of the EU

2 - Have a border poll amid all the chaos of Brexit

If we do it the shinner way, it'd be a recipe for an entirely preventable civil war. A border poll at this stage, with the north in its current state, would unleash forces that nobody can control regardless of the outcome. The Brexit disaster has shown us that big constitutional shocks are not to be taken lightly. The drawing of national borders is a delicate matter. We should be a lot more careful about it than the Brits were in the 1920s.

SF are a pro-united Ireland party. But when it comes to the mechanics of achieving unity, they're not very sophisticated in the way they think about it. A lot of them still seem to be stuck in the 1980s mindset of moaning about how unfairly treated they are by the evil Brits, and not much thought is given to the unionists. They still don't seem to have gotten it into their heads that persuading the moderate end of unionism is the key to Irish unity, and the Brits are just bystanders who would be happy to let go of the place. It's like Peter Brooke's "selfish strategic or economic interest" speech never happened. SF seems to think that if they moan loudly enough about how mean the Brits are, and if we "demand" it loudly enough, the Brits will give the north back. They need to grow up.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:17:57 PM

2 - Desegregate the education system. Catholic church wants to control schools? Fine. Let them pay for it from the church collection basket, but taxpayer funding for the CCMS needs to be phased out. "Faith formation" (or indoctrination/brainwashing to give it a more accurate title) can be done on the church's own time and at their own expense. Sure the pews are half empty these days. One more generation will wrap it up.
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Quote

3 - Desegregate housing. For "interface" areas where there are currently high walls and fences, is there some way the area could be re-architected with commercial development that's accessible to both sides? Replace walls with a space in which prods and taigs can mingle safely?
The phenomenon of "Catholic" and "Protestant" rural towns and villages is worse and more intractable than in the cities. At least city dwellers living in heterogenous zones get to meet and share facilities with "the other side" in city centres. That happens a lot less in the sticks.

Quote
4 - Reform the southern state so that the catholic church is booted out of the education and health systems. If vital public services are being provided by churches and voluntary organizations it's a sign of a weak state. Strengthen the state.
Its actually voluntary committees, not groups of priests and bishops, who run hospitals and schools here. Kick them out and you'll be left with the same politicians who have run our public services into the ground.

Quote
5 - Give it a few years for desegregation in the north to take effect, for some heat to be taken out of the environment, and for the current generation of bigoted unionist politicians to retire and hopefully be replaced by more reasonable youngsters.
No mention of bigoted republican politicians. The idea that all these on both sides will disappear in a few years is laughable.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:24:36 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:25:51 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:10 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 05:27:43 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on October 31, 2019, 05:36:59 PM
Many Unionists would probably get on with a lot of middle class Dubs. The differences are not necessarily as big as people think.
Not so sure about wee Loyalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on October 31, 2019, 05:39:25 PM
Trump going on Farage's show to slate Corbyn and tell everyone how great Boris is . . . I'm pretty sure this is playing right into Corbyn's hands!!!

Trump doesn't have the same pull in the UK as he has in the midwest.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 05:58:33 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 06:19:31 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: delgany on October 31, 2019, 06:26:23 PM
The NI public finances are bust already. Building a whole new set of schools would be ruinous.

Decrease funding to the CCMS, increase funding to the integrated sector. Same amount of money.

And buy or confiscate the existing building stock?

The significant majority of catholic maintained (CCMS) schools are over 60 years old , falling apart , in desperate need of modernisation , so not worth buying or confiscating ( of the church ,who technical own the land and buildings)

They were subject to years of neglect by the Education Authorities at all levels.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 31, 2019, 06:39:15 PM
Trump going on Farage's show to slate Corbyn and tell everyone how great Boris is . . . I'm pretty sure this is playing right into Corbyn's hands!!!

Trump doesn't have the same pull in the UK as he has in the midwest.

I though you were taking the piss for a moment... apparently not!

Corbyn (and probably the Lib Dems & SNP) couldn't buy such publicity.

And to think that those supporting "Leave" were prior to the referendum going apeshit over Barack Obama's "back of the queue" comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 31, 2019, 06:41:37 PM
No mention of bigoted republican politicians.

Such as...?

That a serious question?

Yes. Go right ahead. Name one bigoted Republican politician from a major political party ...

I will in my nelly expose myself to the libel laws. You can do your own research. It ain't hard.

Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on October 31, 2019, 09:54:16 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 03:47:49 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 01, 2019, 08:31:40 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.

Not for you I most definitely won't.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1
Ha! Good excuse with the libel thing, terrible follow-up by asking me to back up your argument for you.

I accept your concession of the point. Unionist politicians are far more bigoted than republicans/nationalists.

So you accept there are bigoted republican politicians. Which means your barb about my exposure to the libel laws is moot.

Name one.

Anderson
Flanagan
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 10:05:12 AM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 10:50:27 AM
It will be interesting to see how the SDLP get on. SF's abstentionism may be fine for business as usual but there is too much important stuff happening now to justify it.
Say the Tories win the election. There is going to be a customs border between NI and GB. That will increase grocery prices in Andersonstown.
Austerity has hammered Creggan. Brexit will mean even more austerity.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: snoopdog on November 01, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
Its time for both communities to go back to the  more moderate . The nationalist community as stated above now need a voice in westminister . And the unionists need a more moderate party who actually want to get involved in govt. The need for SDLP the UUP and Alliance has never been greater.  The Sdlp have some good people like  Hanna, Mallon and Eastwood. Who actually care about people.  Sinn Fein i believe would be delighted with a no deal brexit as it would bring a UI closer but people would be crippled for years in the north. And Sinn Fein in a united Ireland would be irrelevant as a party.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 01, 2019, 12:25:18 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 01, 2019, 12:28:40 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 01, 2019, 12:33:29 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Would it not be possible to mobilise the Holylands if we got them sobered up??? There are lots of nationalist voters there and cant imagine it be too hard for them to change their address if they living there during the week?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 01, 2019, 12:33:59 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 01, 2019, 12:37:28 PM
Its time for both communities to go back to the  more moderate . The nationalist community as stated above now need a voice in westminister . And the unionists need a more moderate party who actually want to get involved in govt. The need for SDLP the UUP and Alliance has never been greater.  The Sdlp have some good people like  Hanna, Mallon and Eastwood. Who actually care about people.  Sinn Fein i believe would be delighted with a no deal brexit as it would bring a UI closer but people would be crippled for years in the north. And Sinn Fein in a united Ireland would be irrelevant as a party.

UUP had a big chance recently on a number of fronts and seem to lack serious balls... They could have been the unionist party who stood up for business & agri with the back stop but they decided to take the DUP line.

Also Aitken was probably taking a risk but one I think worth taking by saying they will run in every constituency which my have been a way back into politics for them but seems to have shit himself judging by what he said on the view last night... Election hasn't even started yet and hes fcuked it right up to save poor crying wee Nigel!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 01, 2019, 12:42:50 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Trump continually sticking his oar in is no help to him. Also, if no Brexit party pact, then it's bound to split at least some of the Tory vote. Either way, I do think it's heading for another coalition, this time without the DUP hopefully.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 12:44:00 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 12:56:13 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Would it not be possible to mobilise the Holylands if we got them sobered up??? There are lots of nationalist voters there and cant imagine it be too hard for them to change their address if they living there during the week?

When do students finish up for Christmas? Will a lot of them be doing exams this day or the next?
So they'll not probably home so need to get postal or proxy etc. or a vote wasted.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:09:04 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 01, 2019, 01:16:35 PM
Will there be a Unionist pact in Fermanagh South Tyrone?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Will there be a Unionist pact in Fermanagh South Tyrone?

No need for one, DUP won't stand here anyway and it's a straight shoot out between SF & UUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 01:29:09 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.     
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 01, 2019, 01:30:11 PM
Obvious thing to do in Sth and Nth Belfast is whichever Nationalist party got the highest vote to stand and the other step aside.
Of course historically SF, the Irish Government etc should have insisted on PR being used in ALL 6 Co Elections ach sin scéal eile...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 01, 2019, 01:34:55 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.

I don't get why so many want to see the end of Corbyn.
Looking at the leaders of all the main parties, he's the only one who seems to be genuine when it comes to the NHS, the poor, the students and workers.
Forgetting about Brexit for a second, these are things that actually affect people currently and will continue to do so in the future.
I see lots of comments about anyone being better than Corbyn so they are voting Tory to keep him out but from my perspective, anyone is better than any Tory. I personally like Corbyn's politics.

I think Boris and Farage will do a deal and it could well still be as drastic as being a no-deal Brexit being the arrangement.
This could give the Tories a majority. Without that deal, I think it will only ever be a hung parliament.
I think Lib Dems will increase their share of the vote with the Remain promise, Labour will win in some areas and lose to UKIP/Tories in others with their promise of a people's vote.
I wonder would LibDems and Labour team up to form a coalition in the case of a hung parliament?

I terms of the local MPs, I'd like to see almost any opportunity taken to reduce the DUP representation in Westminster.
They are toxic.
To the point, that in the absence of any official pact with Alliance/SDLP I'd hope SF will decide not to run a candidate in certain constituencies to ensure a remain candidate is returned.
Their abstentionist policy wont change, so there is a need to look at the bigger picture on how they can influence proceedings in Westminster. Personally, I think Alliance have some excellent options and for SDLP I think Hanna is very good. I think they could represent the majority of the people here in terms of Brexit opinion.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 01, 2019, 01:45:13 PM
Corbyn isn't a fan of Zionists and various other high powered people who are up to no good. These people have power enough to ruin someone like that unfortunately. The anit semitism thing is in my view a smear campaign.

Agreed anything can be done to get the DUP out is what people should be after. In my constituency Pengelly is in and should never be. Hopefully Hanna will get in instead of her but the nationalist vote is very split whereas the unionist vote isn't at all which causes the problem.

Some reckon the DUP will go from 10 to 6. I'd love to see it but I think it may just be wishful thinking.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 01:48:15 PM
Obvious thing to do in Sth and Nth Belfast is whichever Nationalist party got the highest vote to stand and the other step aside.
Of course historically SF, the Irish Government etc should have insisted on PR being used in ALL 6 Co Elections ach sin scéal eile...
They are used in elections in NI for Assembly and councils, but this is a UK wide election so you can hardly run it in the North on a completely different form to how it operates in Britain. They had the chance to remove FPTP in 2011 but it was rejected, so that's that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 01:49:17 PM
Corbyn isn't a fan of Zionists and various other high powered people who are up to no good. These people have power enough to ruin someone like that unfortunately. The anit semitism thing is in my view a smear campaign.

Agreed anything can be done to get the DUP out is what people should be after. In my constituency Pengelly is in and should never be. Hopefully Hanna will get in instead of her but the nationalist vote is very split whereas the unionist vote isn't at all which causes the problem.

Some reckon the DUP will go from 10 to 6. I'd love to see it but I think it may just be wishful thinking.
There is a 3 way civil war in the UK

The Tories have a neo victorian economic policy that will drive down incomes and mitigate it with cheaper food like chlorinated chicken
The Lib Dems are neoliberal so want more austerity
Labout are socialist and want to reform the economy so it works for ordinary people

The hatred of Corbyn comes from people who benefit from the status quo. That includes Zionists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 01:51:29 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.
 
Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 02:09:16 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.
 
Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days.

It all depends on how many votes Anne McCloskey takes from SF and SDLP. Far bigger factor than the dubious "unionists voting for SDLP" factor. I have worked with a lot of unionists from Waterside and not one considered voting SDLP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Stall the Bailer on November 01, 2019, 03:15:28 PM




The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties -

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   
Strabane is in West Tyrone and not Foyle
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 01, 2019, 03:38:20 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 03:59:36 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

This
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 01, 2019, 04:10:10 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Ourselves alone indeed.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 04:28:45 PM
Betting odds:

No overall majority: 10/11
Tory majority: 6/5
Labour majority: 35/2
Any other party majority: 80/1

If the remain parties get their shit together and get the right pacts in place, I don't see the Tories getting a majority. My money would be on a hung parliament with Tories getting a plurality of seats, but remainer parties having a majority. Rainbow coalition government of Labour, Lib Dems, and SNP + others on the cards. LibDems will campaign on a Revoke Article 50 ticket, but will insist on second referendum as a compromise as a condition of coalition support. SNP will insist on Indyref II. Labour might reluctantly agree to it while hoping that if Brexit is cancelled then Scotland will vote to remain in the UK.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 01, 2019, 04:41:45 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Ourselves alone indeed.

They were encouraging their voters to vote Alliance in locals to keep SDLP out
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.

Unionism is inherently homophobic, xenophobic, sectarian, and makes a point of blocking expressions of Irish culture at every turn.

Nationalism does not behave in that way. I don't buy this false equivalence.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 05:49:34 PM
There are bigots on both sides. It's very blinkered, and naive,  to think otherwise.

Unionism is inherently homophobic, xenophobic, sectarian, and makes a point of blocking expressions of Irish culture at every turn.

Nationalism does not behave in that way. I don't buy this false equivalence.
Unionism is paranoid. The settler fear of the natives. Goes all the way back to 1641 and beyond. The symbols and the institutions.  They have no other proofs that they belong. Israel and the US are the same. Irish people don’t have the same emptiness.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 06:13:56 PM
Key Battleground of South Belfast:

Brexit Referendum 2016:
Total electorate: 66,664
Turnout: 44,583 (66.9%), 3/18.
Votes to REMAIN: 30,960 (69.5%);
Votes to LEAVE: 13,596 (30.5%).
Third highest REMAIN vote share in Northern Ireland

Westminster Election 2017:
Emma Little Pengelly (DUP) 13,299 (30.4%)
Alasdair McDonnell (SDLP) 11,303 (25.9%)
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance) 7,946 (18.2%)
Máirtín Ó Muilleoir (SF) 7,143 (16.3%)
Clare Bailey (Green) 2,241 (5.1%)
Michael Henderson (UUP) 1,527 (3.5%)
Clare Salier (Con) 246 (0.6%)

Surely the Pro-Remain parties must do a election pack here, but if they do who gets the free run? It either have to be Claire Hanna (SDLP) or Paula Bradshaw (Alliance). Views Folks??

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Let Hanna have a free run there - the solicitor a free run in NB and Alliance a free run in East Belfast.

SF and SDLP can fight it out in Derry but it's a win for SDLP as unionists will vote for Eastwood. Personally zI think Eastwood is poor.  Every election, he's in there, always about him and his profile.  Another mess by the SDLP in regards their 'leader' in Westminister - they can't make their mind up can they/can they not have their leader in London.  They change their mind - speaking about that what's the bet Stevie renages on his statement of standing Ulster unionists in every area?

I'd love to get Dodds get the boot in Nth. Belfast so all effort should go into that.

The problem is, as usual, there doesn't seem to be agreement in the Remain parties - SF/SDLP/Alliance and Greens etc. and it would be a serious balls up if the DUP, as Brexiteers, take the majority of the seats.  It would send out a bad statement.

That would make sense but it means remain parties setting aside their own narrow ambitions for the greater good and I'm not sure whether that will happen although they have fought a fairly united battle on Brexit related issues so we can hope.

Can't see too many unionists voting for Eastwood since he will take his seat in Westminster and might have some influence as a remainer however minor that is. Think it will be tight between SF and SDLP in Derry & Strabane. Finucane has to find 2,000 votes on Dodds and you would have to think that this will only be possible if SDLP step aside. An agreement for SF to step aside in South Belfast to allow Hanna get in and for SDLP to do likewise in north Belfast to give Finucane a chance would make sense.   

You're right - seems there's too many egos on the Remain side to sort out a pact.
 
Unlike the unionists!!! From now on, every election will be for the DUP.  It'll be a DUP headcount and we can see that now with the pressure being put on their new leader.  UU could be wiped out this time.

Re: Derry. I think Unionists will vote tactically to keep Mc A out. Simple as that.  They know their votes matters in a tight count.

We all know this is the simole solution for the pro EU parties regarding NB, SB and EB but it'll be interesting to see over next few days.

It all depends on how many votes Anne McCloskey takes from SF and SDLP. Far bigger factor than the dubious "unionists voting for SDLP" factor. I have worked with a lot of unionists from Waterside and not one considered voting SDLP.

Well, they're not going to tell you I'd say.  It's all about tactics now - they'll want Mc Callion out and as not chance of DUP/UUP winning, it's their only option.

Same as WB a few years ago - Shankhill votes got Joe Hendron elected.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 01, 2019, 06:19:31 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

The Pro EU sides need to get their act together and get a pact organised asap. 

They then need to tell the electorate that this is about Brexit - votes are either for or against. 

Give the voters a choice - DUP or anti-Brexit party (whoever that may be pact wise)

Sending mixed messages will be hopeless.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 01, 2019, 06:36:02 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 01, 2019, 07:07:22 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.

Aye, and what do they do with their voice? They may as well shout down a well, for all the good they do.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: take_yer_points on November 01, 2019, 07:27:29 PM
Looking at the figures Boris will win this election by a very large margin.

Way too early to tell that!! Also he's had a bad couple of days on the campaign trail so far this thing will close and it'll be a hung parliament!

I am worried this may be the outcome.

If it is then it's the end of Corbyn so basically it's the end of Corbyn or the end of Johnson I expect. I would rather see Johnson finished than Corbyn but I think it is a matter of time and the right circumstances before Corbyn is ousted anyway. I think this could be them.

I don't get why so many want to see the end of Corbyn.
Looking at the leaders of all the main parties, he's the only one who seems to be genuine when it comes to the NHS, the poor, the students and workers.
Forgetting about Brexit for a second, these are things that actually affect people currently and will continue to do so in the future.
I see lots of comments about anyone being better than Corbyn so they are voting Tory to keep him out but from my perspective, anyone is better than any Tory. I personally like Corbyn's politics.

I think Boris and Farage will do a deal and it could well still be as drastic as being a no-deal Brexit being the arrangement.
This could give the Tories a majority. Without that deal, I think it will only ever be a hung parliament.
I think Lib Dems will increase their share of the vote with the Remain promise, Labour will win in some areas and lose to UKIP/Tories in others with their promise of a people's vote.
I wonder would LibDems and Labour team up to form a coalition in the case of a hung parliament?

I terms of the local MPs, I'd like to see almost any opportunity taken to reduce the DUP representation in Westminster.
They are toxic.
To the point, that in the absence of any official pact with Alliance/SDLP I'd hope SF will decide not to run a candidate in certain constituencies to ensure a remain candidate is returned.
Their abstentionist policy wont change, so there is a need to look at the bigger picture on how they can influence proceedings in Westminster. Personally, I think Alliance have some excellent options and for SDLP I think Hanna is very good. I think they could represent the majority of the people here in terms of Brexit opinion.

If Boris and Farage do a deal with no deal as the arrangement, would Boris not lose a portion of his vote who want to leave with a deal?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 01, 2019, 07:48:22 PM
The combination of the Assembly shutdown and the SF clean sweep last time meant that the only person standing up for Remainers was Sylvia Hermon. SF need a good kick up the arse this time around.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:11:40 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: naka on November 01, 2019, 08:39:46 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Jim Bob on November 01, 2019, 08:49:21 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

Such a stupid statement.  1980s Provo mentality
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: hardstation on November 01, 2019, 08:52:52 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Err obviously ...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 08:54:10 PM
The chuckies seem to be more outspoken in their quest for an immediate border poll than they are in any opposition to Brexit. In fact they don't seem to be opposed to Brexit at all. It's like they see Brexit as an opportunity to come up with some novel arrangement for the North staying in the EU while Britain leaves.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 01, 2019, 08:59:04 PM
UUP staff now receiving threats after their refusal to enter a pact with the DUP. Is this what democracy looks like in 2019, bully boy tactics to influence election results.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: hardstation on November 01, 2019, 09:12:34 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 01, 2019, 09:35:31 PM
UUP staff now receiving threats after their refusal to enter a pact with the DUP. Is this what democracy looks like in 2019, bully boy tactics to influence election results.

Jamie Bryson will be on the Nolan show first thing on Monday morning, blaming it on the IRA, probably.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 01, 2019, 10:12:58 PM
Boris has rejected a pact with Farage!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 08:48:49 AM
http://www.sdlp.ie/news/2016/eastwood-poll-lays-out-challenge-for-nationalism/

The results of the BBC IPSOS MORI poll set out the clear challenge for nationalism. We now need to put in the hard yards to develop a credible and detailed path to Irish unity. Only a comprehensive national debate with detailed proposals can move the discussion beyond the predetermined and into the practical. Scottish Independence activists compiled a 670-page document outlining the road to independent nationhood. That saw support from independence rise from 28% in 2013 to 45% in 2014.

“I firmly believe that the people of Northern Ireland will judge that their interests are best served in a united Ireland, in the same way that they astutely judged our interests were best served in a strong, united Europe. The challenge now is for civic nationalism to articulate how unity can provide better public services, forge a vibrant new economy and create a better quality of life for everyone on the island. The SDLP is up for that challenge and we’ll join with others across this island to make that case.”
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 02, 2019, 08:54:15 AM
The chuckies seem to be more outspoken in their quest for an immediate border poll than they are in any opposition to Brexit. In fact they don't seem to be opposed to Brexit at all. It's like they see Brexit as an opportunity to come up with some novel arrangement for the North staying in the EU while Britain leaves.

Indeed. All that comes out of any Shinner mouth is border poll this, border poll that it seems.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 02, 2019, 09:01:40 AM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: snoopdog on November 02, 2019, 09:12:55 AM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: hardstation on November 02, 2019, 09:45:37 AM
Hardly a childish comment. It is 100% true. Over the last 20 years, the SDLP’s relevance has plummeted to the point where they are on life support. The only thing they have managed to keep a firm hold of is their pomposity.

I am not a Sinn Féin supporter and will not be voting for them in the upcoming election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: charlieTully on November 02, 2019, 10:03:37 AM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .


They aren't really moderate nationalists in that case. They aren't nationalist at all. Just unionists with an interest in Irish culture. The SDLP in other words.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 10:05:04 AM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.
Awful statement
But it sums up shinner thinking
this board has gone down hill in the 20 years I have been on it
So has the SDLP funny enough.
A very childish statement. Yes the sdlp have struggled since the days of Hume and Mallon. But are sinn fein really interested in whats best for the nationalist people? They havent shown it this last few years  .they have poor leadership compared to what gerry and Martin offerred. Border poll this and border poll that. A border poll without proper dialogue would be a disaster. Alot of moderate nationalists currently have no interest in a united ireland .

Is that not a contradiction in terms?
Or does it betray the mentality of a lot of SDLP voters who actually are voting on sectarian lines as opposed to national unity. The SDLP have had some real heroes such as Hume and Durkin who put peaceful solutions to the conflict above all else including their own political careers. More recently unfortunately some in the SDLP are putting their own rivalry with SF above all else. In reality Alliance are more honest by stating they are neutral on unity. Many in the SDLP are either neutral or disinterested in Unity , yet still avail of the nationalist headcount.
We need a Hume like figure from moderate nationalism to chart a path to a solution across these islands into the future. This must include respecting and indeed fostering the British identity of ~1 million unionists within a 32 county context that also respects the Irish identity of ~1million nationalists( NI has had a 100 years of opportunities to respect this Irish identity but has failed miserably) . I think SF emphasis on a border poll at this time is unhelpful and will only serve to rally the unionist cause. The GFA was successfully forged on the basis of reconciliation , respect and equality. Sadly those principles ( which would meet agreement from ~1.5million ) have not retained primacy, thus we haven’t moved forward . the anti-Irish bigotry of a shrinking number of unionists remains the main stumbling block to progress. Amazingly these bigots still are influencing decisions at the highest level, because their opponents are cutting lumps out of each other. What I would like to see in the upcoming elections is an unwritten pact between those that are opposed to brexit to maximise the remain vote to send a clear message to Westminster . Formal pacts would be counterproductive but a positive remain campaign and isolation of the DUP is paramount .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 02, 2019, 10:19:45 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 02, 2019, 10:25:50 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.

Bradshaw not needed in SB. If SF don't stand then Hanna walks it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 10:39:02 AM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate.
What is the SF plan for day 2 of a United Ireland ?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 11:00:53 AM
Out for a walk this morning & Bradshaw has her posters up. No pact in South Belfast, by the looks of it & thon DUP piece of shit will keep her seat, unfortunately.

Currently SDLP and Alliance are rival parties, therefore a pact is a dangerous path to follow as it can have unintended consequences . For example if MOM stepped aside in SB , DUP will cry that Claire Hanna is linking up with SF/IRA and stir up their troops. Similarly if SDLP stepped aside to give Naomi Long a clear run it would expose that there is little difference between the two parties and one party tends to lose out in long term ( cf UUP pacts with DUP)
Carlsberg pact: abstentionist SF withdraw candidates as a once-off , pro-remain gesture to maximise the remain votes in Westminster. Agreed remain candidates in all constituencies, maximising remain vote and MPs, therefore inflicting a long overdue hammer blow on the DUP.   

But unfortunately that won’t happen.
A pact between Alliance  and SDLP isn’t going to happen in the short term, and a long term merger might actually be more realistic .

In the short time we have , there must be unwritten cooperation between remain parties eg low key canvassing & focus on trying to get best placed remain candidates through ( this includes  JF in North Belfast and Sylvia Hermon in North Down) . If SDLP were to get over the line in Derry to put a pro-remain MP in Westminster, they might be happy to have John Finucane get thru in NB, to knockout Dodds from Parliament.  The one thing that could unite the vast majority of people in the North, is delivering a hammer blow to the DUP at the polls. If for the first time DUP got kicked at the polls, it would for once put them on the back foot and they may then feel compelled to cooperate with others
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 02, 2019, 04:03:57 PM

Sinn Fein need to get out of here and let Hanna have a run at it ... it's a done deal if they do sure McDonnell was useless and nearly ousted Pengelly last time!

Sinn Fein have no interest in the SDLP being successful. They would rather get to the situation where they are the only voice for nationalism in the north.
Looks like the situation at the minute anyway.... sdlp=unionists dressed as nationalists.

How do you work that out?

Probably because they don't shout tiocfaidh ar la, and want to engage in political institutions to serve their electorate.
What is the SF plan for day 2 of a United Ireland ?

Protest that people have to pay for x, y and z.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 04:51:38 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 02, 2019, 06:42:18 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 06:49:11 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 02, 2019, 07:14:22 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.

I've said it before:

1. Sort Pro EU candidates for election pact.
2. Simple message - Your choice: DUP or Pro EU.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 02, 2019, 08:03:43 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Edit: Tom Elliott, whom Arlene endorsed in a tweet today, has said he has not yet even expressed an interest in running.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 02, 2019, 08:11:51 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
The DUP crashed and burned with Brexit so there will be some kind of price to pay
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 02, 2019, 08:16:02 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST

The DUP are running scared , they are getting in early re FST as they are happy that Tom Elliott is one of their own anyway ,but hoping UUP will continue to stand aside in NB particularly ,?as Dodds is under serious pressure. A low key SDLP campaign in NB could ensure John Finucane gets over the line, moving Dodds off the stage with his tail between his legs, which would send a clear message to DUP. For a purely pro-remain return A Clare Hanna victory in SB, Naomi long in EB and Colm Eastwood In Foyle and SDLP win in South Down, is the best scenario to optimise Pro-remain voting strength in Westminster . Will remainers vote tactically in this election and give a sobering message to DUP. I sense many will put party political loyalty to one side to hammer the DUP and move us out of the nonsense we continue to endure from them.
The DUP crashed and burned with Brexit so there will be some kind of price to pay

Unionists will vote for the DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Clinker on November 02, 2019, 08:40:24 PM
Major psychological win for Unionism in the Athletic Grounds tonight.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 02, 2019, 08:47:52 PM
The DUP will not be running a candidate in FST
No different from 2017 and SF still won the seat.
Edit: Tom Elliott, whom Arlene endorsed in a tweet today, has said he has not yet even expressed an interest in running.

It’s time for moderate unionists to step up. Arlene has basically endorsed Tom who hasn’t even been selected yet. It’s a transparent attempt by the patronising DUP to tell UUP what to do. UUP have bowed to this pressure over the years and even watched the DUP poach some of their most eminent politicians , they have been ridiculed by DUP over several years. Is Aitken the man to finally stand up for moderate unionism against the selfish, backward and corrupt DUP?

Much as I would like agreed non abstentionist MPs returned in all possible constituencies to fight against brexit in parliament, an election pact on the remain side won’t happen for some of these reasons:
1. Too late for it to happen
2. Not the best way of maximising the pro-remain vote across the North
3. Not possible for SDLP because of pressure from FF, Alliance because they have spent nearly 50 years ”non-aligned” and won’t want to be branded as nationalist now , and SF voters won’t like standing aside for SDLP who have been openly antagonist to them for years .
4. Will motivate some moderate unionists who will vote against a “pan nationalist front” -DUP will be happy to exploit that
5. A desire for parties to engage in real politics and give voters choice
6. Fear of it backfiring and causing the demise of weaker parties.

The best option for all in the North is for parties to decide where they are going to stand with pro remain choices in all constituencies. In marginal seats the hope is that remainers and the 75% of the population who despise the DUP , vote tactically. This will give a massive pro remain headcount , potentially unseat 3 DUP MPs and potentially send 4 fresh remainers to Westminster.
Are pro-remain parties mature enough and unselfish enough to drive the boot into the DUP for the benefit of all , or will they continue to drive the boot into each other ,to the benefit of the DUP.
The GFA happened as a result of the likes of Hume putting the electorate before his party’s interest, and it successfully put an end to bloodshed , by isolating unreasonable unionism . The same needs to happen again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 03, 2019, 03:03:12 PM
UUP have pulled out of North Belfast. Good to see UDA intimidation still works FFS. Aiken and the UUP are an absolute joke and are finished now if anyone was in any doubt
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 03, 2019, 03:28:21 PM
UUP have pulled out of North Belfast. Good to see UDA intimidation still works FFS. Aiken and the UUP are an absolute joke and are finished now if anyone was in any doubt

No surprise there.  Everybody saw that coming.

Unionists will have 1 party to vote for from now on - the DUP.

Very disappointing that Pro EU parties won't get their act together but not unexpected - too many big egoes.

Nationalists have turned soft I think - too many softies amongst the ranks.  Look at how many nationalist s James McClean excluded, don't wear a poppy on tv? Too worried about their career!  As I say - softies.


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 03, 2019, 04:14:12 PM
Ulster Unionist general election 2019, thus far.
"Of course we will be running 18 candidates".
"I'm not saying whether or not we are running 18 candidates".
"We aren't running in North Belfast".
Welcome to the exciting world of Submarine Steve. He will not even last the current average of roughly a couple of years per UU leader, if he keeps this up (and he isn't even in post yet). The stupider the UU leadership manages to be, it probably convinces the average PUL dupe that Snarlene is wonderful, by comparison.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 03, 2019, 06:45:59 PM
They should do the dacent thing and disband.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 03, 2019, 06:47:21 PM
John Finucane must have the potential to lead SF in the future

https://twitter.com/johnfinucane/status/1189659594420822018
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 03, 2019, 06:56:05 PM
Same as FST and the DUP, the UUP haven’t run in North Belfast in at least the last two general elections. So it doesn’t extend Dodds’s lead.
Still waiting to hear from SDLP, whose constituency meeting in N Belfast was yesterday morning.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 03, 2019, 07:01:35 PM
Predictable but saddening couple of days in NI politics.

Aiken isn’t a bad lad but let’s face it he has caved in here. Political outright unionism definitely has no place for anyone who is pro EU or pro a civilised settlement in NI. No gain for Alliance in FST or in North Belfast but they must be rubbing their hands for other constituencies namely East and possibly South Belfast this time and more generally across NI in future PR elections
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 03, 2019, 07:06:10 PM
It's not Aiken that I am worried about.  Believe me, his better half already has delusions that she's the queen of Sheba & she will be completely insufferable when he becomes leader & she thinks she's Mrs. Leader.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 03, 2019, 07:13:00 PM
Steve 'Yellow Submarine' Aiken. Leadership a complete and utter failure before it's even begun. Final nail in coffin of party that led apartheid regime here from 1921 to 1972.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 03, 2019, 08:33:41 PM
Steve 'Yellow Submarine' Aiken. Leadership a complete and utter failure before it's even begun. Final nail in coffin of party that led apartheid regime here from 1921 to 1972.

In fairness, who is surprised by this cave in?

I, for one, am not.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:53:48 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 04, 2019, 01:07:36 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 04, 2019, 01:12:11 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:42:06 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.

No harm to you , but lazily categorising anti-DUP as being against themmums is insulting. I’m anti-sectarian but strongly anti DUP.
I have no issue with “themmums“ if you mean Protestants, British, unionists. I actually like, admire and respect many with those ideals and I share many of their concerns. However the DUP as a party have consistently shown themselves to be ungenerous, bigoted , triumphalist, discriminatory and corrupt. In Ian paisley and Peter Robinson they had leaders so greedy for power that they reluctantly engaged to power share and bit their tongue for the glory of the first minister accolade. Arlene is so anti-Irish she can’t even do that. The DUP need hammered and exposed . Hopefully other unionists will emerge to argue a very worthy cause, but that won’t be easy given the apparent UDA threat when UUP muted challenging the DUP in NB. Perhaps a leader will emerge from
The middle ground to unite the population here and Tbf Naomi Long looks well placed. We’ve all had to endure this nonsense for too long, going right back to Paisley’s sectarian role in stoking the conflict .  Let’s move these dinosaurs aside and finally move towards a normal society .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 04, 2019, 04:32:41 AM
This will defo make things interesting in NB there every possibility Finucane could unseat Dodds. There will be a fierce scrap to get the voters out there. As a gesture to remain voters he could say he will take his seat for Brexit votes and debates tho prob unlikely the cult would allow that. 
Also not sure if they will reciprocate in SB, they may well which should make it wee buns for Hannah.
EB is a different kettle of fish tho. I think Naomi only got in cos the DUP couldn't get the vote out but they have consistently now for a few elections so think its unlikely she'd make it
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 04, 2019, 06:20:21 AM
For additional pantomime, JF should dress up as Daniel O’Connell and enter the Houses of Parliament. That’s after he wins obvs
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 06:52:37 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
Absolutely not. A build-up of anti DUP sentiment doesn’t just cover GFA or Brexit, but also their attempts to deny equal rights, plus their involvement in numerous scandals. Having read the book on RHI, the workings of that party have utterly disgusted me further.
If Sylvia Hermon was Dodds’s closest competitor in NB, she’d get my vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 04, 2019, 08:26:20 AM
Anti-DUP sounds a bit like themmuns. Pro GFA would be a stronger suit.
The themmuns modes means failure is tolerated . The DUP made a horse's arse of Brexit and the customs border will increase costs for both sens of muns. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 09:15:20 AM
Cue the SF/IRA , pan nationalist front rhetoric from DUP and throwing Alliance in the mix as SDLP stepped aside for them and SF (cf the vitriol and violence against Alliance when they had the cheek to remain neutral re flags.)
Decent people on all sides need to stand up to the self-interested DUP .
I genuinely feel sorry for the Protestant working class who have been shafted by the DUP for years, massive job losses, educational underachievement , poor health outcomes, whilst DUP politicians going back to Paisley and Robinson are coining it. A unionist friend of mine enlightened me on the fact that the DUP have been viewed as corrupt for years but Were  lucky in being positioned as the leaders of unionism and therefore secure many voters , who don’t like them but feel they are in the best position to maintain the union. If nationalists can reassure those decent unionists that any new arrangements will be economically sound and respect their Britishness , they’ll turn on the DUP dinosaurs as well
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 09:17:06 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 10:10:51 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 04, 2019, 10:14:24 AM
The defeat of the pontificating Dodds and consigning him to the dustbin of history would be some achievement.
If SF don't reciprocate I think it'll will do them some harm in NB as those SDLP voters that they should pick up, might just stay at home.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: sensethetone on November 04, 2019, 10:19:37 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

Imagine Nolan/Talk-Back dropping Nelson McCausland as "commentator" because they can have Nigel Dodds.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 10:21:26 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?

Yes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 11:00:35 AM
It's getting nasty in North Belfast it's going to be a crazy few weeks there I imagine!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 11:05:19 AM
SDLP not standing in N Belfast, not in East or North Down. Smart decision, SF likely to reciprocate in South Belfast. SF need to play a smart campaign in NB now and go full on anti-DUP.

Are they?

Yes.

It would be great to see the back of that witch Pengelly. An out and out bigot who should have never been near a seat.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 11:17:00 AM
Farage not having the balls to stand in a constituency himself speaks volumes that the Brexit Party may have run it's race.

But we'll have to wait and see where they can do damage to someone else as they're not likely to get one MP in a FPTP election it seems.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 04, 2019, 11:24:13 AM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:10:45 PM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 04, 2019, 12:19:49 PM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!

Still standing against Dobbs in North Belfast, but stepping down in North Down. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
Sorry you're right they're stepping aside in N Down/E Belfast/S Belfast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 12:23:47 PM
Fair play to Nicola Mallon - that's leadership.  They've made this decision unilaterally i.e. no contact with other parties.

Be interesting to see how the numbers stack up.

I take it no 'dissidents' will be voting!

Ahem, Nicola said on the radio this morning that Michelle was on the phone a week or so ago but nothing was agreed formally and no "pacts" were in place.

I think its sensible politics from the SDLP and if Eastwood does take a seat in Foyle then no harm done IMO.
Shinners need to reciprocate.

Getting shot of Pengelly, Dodds and even Robinson would be some going.

I believe this will happen! Be great

Sinn Fein are stepping down in all 3 seats!!

Still standing against Dobbs in North Belfast, but stepping down in North Down.

Well with the SDLP also standing down in North Belfast, you'd like to think the Shinners would have the decency to give it a good rattle.

The DUP/UDA vote will certainly be energised by these pacts so it's really up to the nationalists to get the finger out and vote.

Shít, I might even have to vote for my old neighbour in Kelly (McGrattan) Armstrong even if she hasn't a snowball's chance in hell of getting rid of Jim the Pig Shannon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 04, 2019, 12:29:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 04, 2019, 12:32:18 PM
Could do with Alliance stepping down/not really trying in North Down then you would think Lady Sylvia will get through handy enough based on the Leave/Remain statistics.

North Belfast is going to be a straight shootout between SF and DUP.

S Belfast similar to North Down you would think Claire Hanna will win that handy enough especially with No SF.

East Belfast has very little chance of voting in Naomi I don't think based on last general election and the Leave/Remain figures I can't see it happening.

A 3 seat drop for DUP would be bad are there any others in play?? I know SF/SDLP will have a close contest in Foyle but is there anywhere else that's vulnerable for anyone?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 12:35:42 PM
They really are the DUP/UDA now too. Nailed their colours to the mast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 04, 2019, 12:38:55 PM
I was ahead of the times as usual ;D
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JohnDenver on November 04, 2019, 12:39:41 PM
Will Alliance put a hard push on canvassing in NB and SB especially? Or will it be a token effort, to allow them to justify their claim of not entering into pacts and running in every constituency.

I think Naomi Long alluded on twitter to the electorate being intelligent enough to vote for themselves, so hopefully this is the case and the DUP can be wiped from those two seats.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 04, 2019, 12:43:40 PM
5 most marginal seats last time were Foyle, FST, North Down, North Belfast and South Belfast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 12:45:27 PM
Sinn Féin will not contest South Belfast, East Belfast or North Down constituencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 04, 2019, 12:46:00 PM
Will Alliance put a hard push on canvassing in NB and SB especially? Or will it be a token effort, to allow them to justify their claim of not entering into pacts and running in every constituency.

I think Naomi Long alluded on twitter to the electorate being intelligent enough to vote for themselves, so hopefully this is the case and the DUP can be wiped from those two seats.

I think it is better the Alliance remaining in both NB and SB as they will mop up moderate Unionist votes that would not go green.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 12:48:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 12:50:20 PM
Just saw a thing on twitter about a banner on the shankill re Finucane and his family. It wasn't exactly very tasteful. This is going to get nasty.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 04, 2019, 12:53:10 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse.

You'll not getting an argument from me on that front.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 04, 2019, 01:05:30 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 04, 2019, 01:08:03 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 04, 2019, 01:09:15 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 04, 2019, 01:11:48 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.

There is nothing sectarian about my dislike of the DUP
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 01:27:03 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23

SF might get some 23 'soft' Alliance votes and it'll be a draw.

Free kicks or penalties then????
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:40:52 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23


I doubt the majority of SDLP voters will switch to the shinners.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 04, 2019, 01:43:56 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

Even if SF had got all the SDLP votes they would have still lost by 23


I doubt the majority of SDLP voters will switch to the shinners.

2 things here:

1. Pro EU candidate.
2. Give Dodds his P45

By the way, you could switch the 1 and 2 around.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 01:47:09 PM
3.  Sinn Féin is utterly useless and doesn't represent anyone but their own self interests.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:49:53 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.

There is nothing sectarian about my dislike of the DUP

This is an absolutely crucial message , voting for Finucane is an anti-sectarian vote . He has proved himself as intelligent and likeable  , trying hard to break down barriers. DOdds and the DUP never show any generosity and the u-turn by alleged remainer  Aiken under pressure from the UDA betrays yet again , that some unionists still just can’t countenance having a “fenian about the place”.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 04, 2019, 01:56:04 PM
3.  Sinn Féin is utterly useless and doesn't represent anyone but their own self interests.

Criticise SF all you like, but no matter how “useless” they are, the most pragmatic approach  to ensure having less Brexit votes in Westminster is crucial . Handing Dodds and his band of bigots their P45 is an opportunity not to be missed. And that’s a strongly anti-sectarian viewpoint . All nationalists and anyone else who has been on the receiving end of these dinosaurs ( ie most of the population) , May never get a better opportunity to drive that anti-sectarian message home.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 04, 2019, 01:58:11 PM
What was the numbers at the last election in NB?

21240 Dodds
19159 Finucane

There were 2k SDLP votes last time which are now up for grabs . It's very much in play.

It just comes down to a good old sectarian head count.
I don’t see it that way. The fact that both nationalist parties are stepping aside in North Down and East Belfast means it can’t be viewed as that. Also the fact that both will contest Fermanagh and South Tyrone also means that unlike the DUP/UUP arrangement this isn’t a sectarian head count
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: uimhr ocht on November 04, 2019, 02:16:15 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 02:23:52 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 04, 2019, 02:24:38 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?
Approx 7k in South Belfast. Other 2 a couple of hundred
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2019, 02:50:01 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?

You're as bad as Syferus was.

Good move by the 2 nationalist parties. I imagine N Belfast will be very, very ugly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 04, 2019, 02:57:58 PM
It's already started. I would say Finucane would need to step up his security arrangements.There is a lot of bad blood already. (Well done DUP)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 04, 2019, 03:33:17 PM
How many votes did sinn fein get in last election in south,east,belfast and in north down?

You are on the internet and you can't look that up?

You're as bad as Syferus was.

Good move by the 2 nationalist parties. I imagine N Belfast will be very, very ugly.

Why because someone can't be arsed looking something up, hardly rocket science, he made the effort to post here - go mental and google the information.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 04, 2019, 03:48:02 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Main Street on November 04, 2019, 08:17:01 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.
Johnson is a babtised catholic, allegedly free from original sin.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 07:10:57 AM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LooseCannon on November 05, 2019, 07:46:29 AM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 09:23:14 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Main Street on November 05, 2019, 09:24:20 AM
There were no laws prohibiting a catholic from being UK pm, at least not in the 20c. Blair did not convert while in offfice for obvious reasons, not for some mysterious legal obstacle. Those reasons probably more to do with the publicity / prejudice around such a high profile conversion would be a distraction and dark forces such as the NI  unionists would seek to make political capital out of it.
Johnson is a catholic, why is that being ignored here?
Strange as it may seem  considering England was the source of Imperialism with its institutionalized racism and sadistic cruelty, I don't think religion is an issue in political life in England.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 09:31:26 AM
 Well the Labour Party is in a right fix about the Jewish question, so maybe there is an issue in political life in England surrounding religion.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 09:58:02 AM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 05, 2019, 09:58:50 AM
Well the Labour Party is in a right fix about the Jewish question, so maybe there is an issue in political life in England surrounding religion.

Or is that the Israeli question?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 05, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!

Great stuff good riddance to ELP
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 05, 2019, 11:00:23 AM

Johnson is a catholic, why is that being ignored here?

Is he? He was baptized one but confirmed as Anglican.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:09:55 AM
Greens stepping aside in South Belfast too. . . Based on the last election Hannah should walk it without SF and the Greens there!!

Great stuff good riddance to ELP

Excellent news - 1 less DUP bigot.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 11:58:43 AM
Hopefully but not going to get too carried away until it actually happens.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 12:21:25 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: mouview on November 05, 2019, 12:34:18 PM
JRM is very (too) influential and IDS was Tory leader for a number of years, so could have led the country.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 05, 2019, 12:47:48 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 05, 2019, 01:03:46 PM
That "Duchess" had to renounce any claim to the Monarchy even though she was about 40th in line for it.
ReesMogg and Duncan Smith are some examples of English Catholics!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 05, 2019, 01:39:03 PM
That "Duchess" had to renounce any claim to the Monarchy even though she was about 40th in line for it.
ReesMogg and Duncan Smith are some examples of English Catholics!!

I don't have much time for religion anymore but my impression is your average English anglican is to a Catholic what a pig is to a swine, feck all difference. They are a different breed to the fundamentalist crew we were saddled with up in the North.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 01:44:05 PM
The path is now clear for Clare Hanna in South Belfast and I think Pengelly is toast there now. If Alliance had stepped down in North Belfast I think Dodds would have been under some pressure there also. I wonder though might the UDA throwing their might behind the Dodds campaign backfire slightly on them. There will be soft unionists and middle of the road voters who would not countenance a vote for a candidate who has had a paramilitary organisation help ward off rival candidates from standing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 02:42:42 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 05, 2019, 03:09:29 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 03:25:42 PM
One thing about this GE is it will give a good indication of where we are at for a border poll.

Unionists on an aggressive get out the vote campaign so should be interesting to see the results with them probably maximising their turnout!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 03:44:18 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?

Well, it was the case. They might have tweaked that law, but still, Blair didn’t convert until after he was British PM, so obviously there is still an issue with it.

The Q is head of the COE, and all things parliament has to be approved by her. Plus, no input from any but Protestant clerics in House of Lords says everything.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 05, 2019, 03:53:51 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 04:57:23 PM
Think Alliance are contesting all seats except possible North Down but they haven't made a call on that yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 05, 2019, 04:58:53 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rois on November 05, 2019, 05:44:16 PM
Alliance definitely not pulling out.

SDLP running a relative unknown in FST and in South Down.  Playing a very realistic and sensible campaign. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 05:49:11 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 05:58:18 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 06:13:36 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.

After this election, do you reckon there'll be another election next year?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 05, 2019, 06:30:53 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won’t change.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:39:54 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic’s eligibility to be PM?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:41:19 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

What law was changed?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:46:36 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Who are “they”?

And are there broad similarities between their backsides and their mid arm joints?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 06:51:10 PM
Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Bunkum. Most people in Britain take nothing to do with religion and wouldn't know a prod from a taig, which is one reason why they find the Troubles so hard to understand. The COE might be the official established church, but there are cults with a bigger following.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:53:43 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic’s eligibility to be PM?

I didn’t make it up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:54:12 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

So you can't be a Catholic and PM. Is that what you are saying?

Well, it was the case. They might have tweaked that law, but still, Blair didn’t convert until after he was British PM, so obviously there is still an issue with it.

The Q is head of the COE, and all things parliament has to be approved by her. Plus, no input from any but Protestant clerics in House of Lords says everything.

When was it the case?
What was the law?
How was it tweaked?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 06:54:20 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won’t change.

I agree. Upper Bann is a safe DUP seat. Arlene could blow millions on a half baked heating scheme and the DUP wouldn't lose a single vote. The unionists have more in common with free staters than they care to admit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:55:49 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:58:03 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

I can google alright. My question to bennycake still stands?
My question to you is what is this law that you are referencing about a catholic’s eligibility to be PM?

I didn’t make it up

So hit me with the specifics. What is this law you are talking about or should I say around?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 05, 2019, 06:58:19 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street

Do you work for the Belfast Telegraph? Shit stirrer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 06:59:52 PM
Armstrong is a complete ignoramus. Just cos she's the Alliance Chief Whip at Stormont, she thinks she owns the place. Completely up her own arse - a vindictive & nasty piece of work altogether.

Remember on Nolan once she was talking absolute shite about how the Republic still had a lot to do to become as liberal and progressive as the UK, funny I dont remember when the UK had a PM who was openly gay and non-white. Sure even Tony Blair didnt become a catholic until he was out of office for fear of the shit storm it would cause. Nope I cant stand her and I once voted Alliance but they seem to be annoying me more and more

Blair converting might have something to do with Catholics not allowed to be the British PM.

When and where did you make that one up?

A quick google should tell you that although the law is not fully explicit for PM there is something to it....

The law was only changed in the last couple of years methinks. Was the same for the line of succession to the throne (or whatever it’s called) until around the same time.

They say it was changed recently. Maybe the anti-catholic stance has diminished (on the surface) in Britain, but the House of Lords has COE leaders only in it. No influence from Catholicism. The idea is that having Catholics around the place advising the government and royalty and pushing their Vatican dogma, we’ll we couldn’t have that, could we?

Anyway, I wouldn’t be fooled by the removal of the Catholic monarch/PM thing. Britain from the top, is as still sectarian as anything you’d have seen at the time of Henry 8 or the setup of Guy Fawkes.

Duchess of Kent was received into the Catholic church in 1994. Both Jacob Rees Mogg and Ian Duncan Smith are Catholics.

None of them are PM or monarch though.

This is nonsense

Britain is a Protestant country from the top down. Nothing nonsense about it.

Tell the average man on the street outside NI and Scotland that they are a Protestant and they are likely to politely smile and move to the sane side of the street

Do you work for the Belfast Telegraph? Shit stirrer.

No to the first bit and ????? To the second. You get on with answering them questions
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 07:00:07 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I don’t think the DUP will lose much in terms of vote in percentage terms. They may even gain votes since I wouldn’t underestimate the fear and paranoia that exists within a large part of unionism. They have already begun to frame the election away from Brexit, RHI and their own record in Parliament. It’s all about SF bogeymen, pan nationalist alliances, threats to the union and warding off any border poll. They’ve got the paramilitaries backing but they have simply battened down the hatches and are so inward looking that they are yet again putting short term thinking ahead of everything else.

By a quirke of fate they had a disproportionate influence after the last Westminster election. No matter the outcome for the DUP after the next election in terms of MPs, it is very likely that they will go back to being a minor party in Parliament in terms of having any real influence on Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 07:07:57 PM
Is Paula Bradshaw not standing in south Belfast?

Posters are up anyway...

Looks like Hanna is the go to & she will unseat that bitter piece of shit that we currently have for an MP. Naomi Long ought to have had some guts the other day, rather than waffling.  If Alliance had pulled Bradshaw, they could have put all their resources into flooding East Belfast & getting in there again.

After this election, do you reckon there'll be another election next year?

Yes - latest current date in legislation to call an Assembly election is 13 January 2020. They should have had 2 for price of 1 on 12 December.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 07:10:40 PM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won’t change.

Not a chance - they'll have a big vote again. Parnonia is huge at the minute.

Some lad on Talkback I think yesterday, said his name was on that letter to Submarine Stevie- he said he was against Brexit and when the interviewer asked his who was he voting for next month....he said the DUP.

I nearly crashed the car.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 05, 2019, 07:18:40 PM
Is there any chance of the RHI inquiry report being published on a totally random date of say, for example, just off the top of the head, Wednesday 11th December, just for a bit of crack???
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 05, 2019, 07:33:36 PM
Tories have made a right pigs ear of today after Boris started well with his letter to Corbyn about his Brexit position.

Rees Mog and then Bridgen both showing they’re stupid f**ks!! I doubt we’ll see much of either of them again the next few weeks!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 08:47:44 PM
Tories have made a right pigs ear of today after Boris started well with his letter to Corbyn about his Brexit position.

Rees Mog and then Bridgen both showing they’re stupid f**ks!! I doubt we’ll see much of either of them again the next few weeks!!!

I think you will see Labour making ground on the Tories again in this election. Corbyn is a very good campaigner and the Tories have so many MPs in positions of power who simply cannot be trusted that there are bound to be more of these gaffes. I also expect Johnson to get exposed later on in the campaign when he does the debates. When you are a charlatan with no real conviction about anything other than your own personal ambition then you will eventually get found out when scrutinised properly. I don’t expect Labour to win the election but it wouldn’t surprise me if they have the numbers to form a coalition.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 08:49:26 PM
The path is now clear for Clare Hanna in South Belfast and I think Pengelly is toast there now. If Alliance had stepped down in North Belfast I think Dodds would have been under some pressure there also. I wonder though might the UDA throwing their might behind the Dodds campaign backfire slightly on them. There will be soft unionists and middle of the road voters who would not countenance a vote for a candidate who has had a paramilitary organisation help ward off rival candidates from standing.

I actually think for Finucane & Sinn Fein, Alliance having a candidate in North Belfast will do them no real harm...

1. The number of nominal Alliance voters that would be willing to vote for a Sinn Fein candidate would realistically be very low - if they pulled out of North Belfast a large majority of their voters would likely just stay at home, or...

2. Having Alliance on the ballot provides a release valve for voters whom would ordinarily describe as Unionist, but would like to think that they can vote for someone or something other than the DUP & Dodds when voting for a Sinn Fein candidate is something they can't swallow doing. If there was no Alliance candidate, a small minority of them might end up being swayed into voting for Dodds instead.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 05, 2019, 09:07:09 PM
I think that's a fair point. Think they'll do the SDLP damage in both South Belfast, although I think Clare Hanna should win, and Foyle.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 05, 2019, 09:12:22 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 09:29:10 PM
Thanks Fionn. Seems like the only seats in play are East Belfast, South Belfast, North Belfast, South Down, Foyle, FST, South Antrim, and the rest are wrapped up. DUP are a dead cert in 6 seats, SF onto a winner in 4.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 09:59:43 PM
So based on odds and excluding North Down its 8 x DUP, 6 SF & 2 X SDLP. North Down is a straight shoot out between DUP & Sylvia Hermon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ardtole on November 05, 2019, 10:07:59 PM
If sf win north belfast then its dup 7 sf 7. I was reading somewhere today that south antrim is a close call between dup & uup as well.

Not much between dup and alliance in east belfast either, Naomi Long will definitely run Robinson close.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 05, 2019, 10:15:09 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 05, 2019, 10:17:15 PM
The big unknown is how much damage the DUP’s Brexit failure will cost them.
Voters are already pissed off after 9 years of austerity .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 05, 2019, 10:26:30 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people “vermin”. By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn’t standing again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 05, 2019, 10:41:06 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people “vermin”. By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn’t standing again

Was mildly surprised to see Colum Eastwood favourite against Elisha McCallion, perhaps Eastwoods higher profile might work in his favour and the fact that he will also take up his seat. Still expect that one to be very close though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:52:43 PM
It’s a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won’t represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
It’s a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won’t represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: thewobbler on November 05, 2019, 10:55:45 PM
It’s a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won’t represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 05, 2019, 11:18:53 PM
It’s a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won’t represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.



If it was 4-5 multi-member constituencies elected by single transferable vote then it wouldn't be quite the same SF/DUP carve up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 05, 2019, 11:23:31 PM
Paddy Power's odds on whom will win each Westminster constituency in NI...


East Belfast

8/13 DUP
5/4 Alliance
33/1 Greens
50/1 UUP
66/1 NI Conservatives

West Belfast

1/200 Sinn Fein
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 DUP

South Belfast

2/9 SDLP
7/2 Alliance
6/1 DUP
66/1 Greens
125/1 NI Conservatives
125/1 UUP

North Belfast

4/6 DUP
Evens Sinn Fein
50/1 Greens
66/1 Alliance

East Derry

1/100 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 NI Conservatives

Strangford

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 Sinn Fein
100/1 UUP
100/1 SDLP

South Down

1/4 Sinn Fein
23/10 SDLP
66/1 DUP
100/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

West Tyrone

1/200 Sinn Fein
50/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
66/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance

North Antrim

1/200 DUP
50/1 UUP
50/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Upper Bann

1/100 DUP
33/1 Sinn Fein
50/1 UUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP

Newry & Armagh

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 UUP

East Antrim

1/200 DUP
33/1 Alliance
66/1 Sinn Fein
66/1 UUP
66/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 Greens

Foyle

4/6 SDLP
11/10 Sinn Fein
100/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

8/15 Sinn Fein
11/8 UUP
100/1 Greens
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Alliance

South Antrim

4/7 DUP
13/5 UUP
3/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 Sinn Fein

Mid-Ulster

1/100 Sinn Fein
33/1 DUP
100/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 UUP

Lagan Valley

1/200 DUP
20/1 Alliance
100/1 SDLP
100/1 NI Conservatives
100/1 UUP
100/1 Sinn Fein

North Down

No odds yet published
Best case is
East Belfast Alliance
West Belfast SF
North Belfast SF
South Belfast SDLP
Foyle SF
Newry/Armagh SF
FST SF
North Down Independent
Mid Ulster SF
Lagan Valley DUP
South Antrim DUP
East Antrim DUP
Upper Bann DUP
South Down SF
East Derry DUP
West Tyrone SF
Strangford DUP
Upper Bann DUP

Giving
SF 8
Alliance 1
SDLP 1
Independents 1
And the other vermin 7.

We can but dream.

Do you regularly call people “vermin”. By all means hold DUP to account for their many failings but have a word with yourself.

Are you sure about Foyle there? How is Elisha doing? Pity Durkan isn’t standing again

Was mildly surprised to see Colum Eastwood favourite against Elisha McCallion, perhaps Eastwoods higher profile might work in his favour and the fact that he will also take up his seat. Still expect that one to be very close though.
[/quote

It will be close but Elisha is not rated too much down these parts
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 05, 2019, 11:47:12 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 05, 2019, 11:59:31 PM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 12:27:20 AM
It’s a rather revolting indictment of the 6 counties that 80% of seats are completely and utterly locked up for either the party that would destroy NI through its own greed, and the party who won’t represent anyone who votes for it.

We deserve to sink into the sea folks.

I see it as an indictment of the first-past-the-post system.

It would be the same political party breakdown regardless of how the election is configured.

If it was PR I don’t think it would, certainly not to the same extent. There would be less need for pacts and there would be less tactical voting as people would be more inclined to vote for the candidates that they want rather than against the ones who they don’t want.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 06, 2019, 12:50:53 AM
Just for reference is the the Shankill split between NB and WB?
Also does the motorway form the boundary for SB and WB?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 06, 2019, 12:55:39 AM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.

Is that the sum total of Shinners with a conscience? No surprise there I suppose
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: RedHand88 on November 06, 2019, 05:44:23 AM
Just for reference is the the Shankill split between NB and WB?
Also does the motorway form the boundary for SB and WB?

Yep
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 09:57:41 AM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?
Dr Anne McCloskey standing in Foyle. Current sitting councillor
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Owenmoresider on November 06, 2019, 10:14:01 AM
Is Aontú standing in this election or have they folded?

I doubt if both members of that party had the capacity to run an election campaign.
::)

They're running in Foyle and West Belfast fwiw.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Keyser soze on November 06, 2019, 10:17:15 AM
David Simpson not standing in Upper Bann, unlikely it will end up as anything other than a DUP return regardless.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: cornerback on November 06, 2019, 10:24:33 AM
Any word of reciprocal moves from Alliance in South Belfast/ North Down, couldn't see them doing it in NB TBF.

Would have thought the Green's would withdraw in North Down and East Belfast also.

Could Upper Bann be in play at all for a pact?

Or even South Antrim to help out UU they prob burnt that bridge by withdrawing from NB?

Couldn't see it. Results from 2017 general election:

DUP 43.5%
SF 27.9%
UUP 15.4%
SDLP 8.6%
Alliance 4.5%

The DUP Brexit result is atrocious. I wouldn't rule out a backlash

I would. Areas like this and north Antrim won’t change.

I agree. Upper Bann is a safe DUP seat. Arlene could blow millions on a half baked heating scheme and the DUP wouldn't lose a single vote. The unionists have more in common with free staters than they care to admit.

Will the news of David Simpson standing down have any affect in Upper Bann?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 10:34:44 AM
David Simpson not standing in Upper Bann, unlikely it will end up as anything other than a DUP return regardless.
Shagger
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:05:17 AM
Is there any chance Beattie could make inroads there??

Anything is better then the DUP to be fair.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:13:59 AM
Is there any chance Beattie could make inroads there??

Anything is better then the DUP to be fair.
Not really
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 06, 2019, 11:31:40 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 06, 2019, 11:51:58 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
Yeah and she will wind. An improvement on Simpson in that she is less likely to pester your wife. Probably not an improvement in any wider sense.

Maybe there should be a coordinated spoiled paper campaign in some constituencies??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: naka on November 06, 2019, 11:52:20 AM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:53:21 AM
Who will the dup put up? Lockhart?
probably
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 06, 2019, 11:54:03 AM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
No. Girvan big man on the ground in this area and will have little or no problem
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 12:03:36 PM
Diane Dodds lives in the constituency and will be out of a job soon, so another possibility.

It would have been interesting if Shagger had have run to see if Doug Beattie would have made any inroads into his vote. O’Dowd would have been well placed if the unionist vote was evenly split, Do£ores Ke££y standing will lessen the chances of this happening.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 12:24:10 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 06, 2019, 01:09:27 PM
Any chance kinahan will unseat girvan in south Antrim
No. Girvan big man on the ground in this area and will have little or no problem

Alliance seem to in contention there too, thought hard to see them pull it off.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 01:13:50 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!


You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 06, 2019, 01:22:21 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 01:42:48 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

I always thought the likes of Matt Hancock was a total liability in front of the camera but it seems the Tories have more than their fair share of them.

Andrew Bridgen doubling down on the Rees Mogg Grenfell blunder and then James Cleverley trying to justify doctoring the Kier Stammer interview with Piers Morgan and then failing to turn up for a Sky interview as he was double booked and him the Tory Party Chairman.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 02:12:24 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

Labour have flown out of the traps again. Corbyn is at his most comfortable campaigning around the country meeting with ordinary people on bread and butter issues and we are seeing that again. The Tories have had a disastrous start because they live sheltered lives and simply aren’t in touch with what is happening outside their own bubble.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 06, 2019, 02:20:32 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

With all the half moderate / sensible Conservatives like Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, even Phillip Hammond etc now gone, the ultra lunatics are in charge and they are finding that exposure to the full public glare is a different kettle of fish from shouting from the back benches. These guys are being shown up for what they are and they are floundering. Hopefully they will get the kicking they deserve from the electorate. Unfortunately, I doubt that they will.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 02:23:06 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?

With all the half moderate / sensible Conservatives like Nicky Morgan, Amber Rudd, Rory Stewart, Ken Clarke, even Phillip Hammond etc now gone, the ultra lunatics are in charge and they are finding that exposure to the full public glare is a different kettle of fish from shouting from the back benches. These guys are being shown up for what they are and they are floundering. Hopefully they will get the kicking they deserve from the electorate. Unfortunately, I doubt that they will.

That's just it -  you only have to peruse some right wing rags and their comment sections to see that Conservative do or die voters are akin to DUP voters, no matter what they say or do folk will vote for them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 02:23:55 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!


You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 06, 2019, 02:32:28 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on November 06, 2019, 02:43:24 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
His interview or the Tory edit of it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 06, 2019, 02:49:04 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!


You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.


The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

Have your say https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/ (https://labour.org.uk/manifesto-2019/)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:52:58 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!


You haven't been paying enough attention or you're reading the wrong "newspapers" if you think that's the case.

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!


There have been several Labour rallies and the Tories have had none. I accept Labout aren't near in full swing and probably mistook the tone of your initial post.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:05 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

Labour have flown out of the traps again. Corbyn is at his most comfortable campaigning around the country meeting with ordinary people on bread and butter issues and we are seeing that again. The Tories have had a disastrous start because they live sheltered lives and simply aren’t in touch with what is happening outside their own bubble.


Nail on the head here.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 06, 2019, 02:54:52 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?


Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 06, 2019, 02:58:46 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?


Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D

Surprised I haven't seen "Make Britain Great Again",
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 06, 2019, 03:01:45 PM

The campaign is only started and they haven't even released their manifesto or chosen their candidates yet.

They haven't done a whole lot so far but they haven't had to with the Conservatives shooting themselves in the foot so much!

There's two of them at it.

Nightmare interviews yesterday and today for Keir Starmer and Laura Pidcock.
His interview or the Tory edit of it?

Fake news from the Tory party.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 03:18:11 PM
Diane Dodds lives in the constituency and will be out of a job soon, so another possibility.

It would have been interesting if Shagger had have run to see if Doug Beattie would have made any inroads into his vote. O’Dowd would have been well placed if the unionist vote was evenly split, Do£ores Ke££y standing will lessen the chances of this happening.
Doddsy might be in Strasbourg for a good while yet
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 04:03:59 PM
What's the Alliances latest tweet about?

Someone throwing some personal mud about!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 04:07:00 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 04:13:05 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 06, 2019, 04:34:41 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009ylz (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0009ylz)

About 11 minutes in.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 05:08:19 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.

They will team up with the UDA/UVF if it is expedient for them to do so. That's fine but they can't then claim some high principled moral stance over paramilitarism links which is what they are doing in the case of Sean Kelly and SDLP. It is fairly clear already that Finucane will be the subject of a continual smear campaign in North Belfast which is just indicative of how much pressure that Dodds is under to hold that seat. I think Finucane is too clever to get involved in the mud slinging of personal attacks and needs to keep it about Brexit and Dodds record over the last 2-3 years as an arch Brexiteer/ERG apologist.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 05:17:58 PM
They can because that is what they do though. The party of RHI, red sky, petitions of concern, links with loyalist paramilitaries. They are the epitome of irony.

Yes I hope Finucane goes nowhere near it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 06, 2019, 06:02:14 PM
Jeffrey Donaldson and Colum Eastwood had a fairly heated exchange earlier on Talkback over a letter that Jeffrey wrote into today's Newsletter asking whether Sean Kelly would be campaigning for Claire Hanna in South Belfast. Eastwood spoke very well and got Donaldson completely flustered and I think that by the end of the interview that he may have realised that the letter may have backfired on him. Looked like a complete stunt from Jeffrey to try and make it about the IRA again and deflect from any Brexit related issues.

The fact is that the DUP have embraced loyalist paramilitaries more than ever before and have done nothing to try and distance themselves from platform sharing and having meetings with the UDA and UVF. I think its borne out of fear and paranoia in realising that the union is under threat but in doing so they just become even more inward looking and continue to isolate themselves. They just continue to dig themselves ever deeper into their bunkers and I think they might soon have to change their party name to 'ourselves alone'.

Sean Kelly is campaigning for Clare Hanna??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 06:23:24 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 06:27:11 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!

For feck sake.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 06, 2019, 06:27:57 PM
Has a political campaign ever shot itself in the foot as badly as the Conservatives have the last few days??

Labour haven't even done anything the Tories are just losing the plot!

If said it on here in the past. Corbyn wiped the floor with the conservatives in 17. I'm beginning to think the conservatives have learnt nothing. Is "get brexit done" the new "strong and stable"?


Don't forget "Britain deserves better"!!!!!!  ;D
Yeah much better than the past 10 years of Tory cuts.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Armagh18 on November 06, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Lady Sylvia not standing!!! f**k that!!
UDA must have told her not too.... any chance of Alliance getting a sniff in her seat if they got support of other remain parties?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 06, 2019, 06:40:46 PM
Potentially a DUP/UDA gain, going on result last time out?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 06, 2019, 06:49:36 PM
Sylvia Hermon's spent 18+ years as an MP in North Down, her decision not to stand for reelection is somewhat out of the blue but also understandable with the reasons she gave.

The only hope for North Down not to fall into DUP hands I reckon would be for most of Hermon's voting base switching to Alliance, with the Greens also stepping aside - but North Down has for a long time been the odd kid out in Westminster elections in the North, so it might not be clear just yet.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 06, 2019, 06:52:09 PM
Could she not have held on until January ffs?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:03:35 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Harold Disgracey on November 06, 2019, 07:08:38 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: LeoMc on November 06, 2019, 07:14:30 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
UUP didn’t stand against her so they may have a chance if they have any decent candidates. How did they do in the other elections there?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 07:21:46 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.

31,000 unionist votes out of 38,000 highly unlikely alliance could win it I would have thought, possibly UUP depending on the candidates involved. If both UUP and Alliance stand then it plays into DUP's hands.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 07:22:18 PM
That's a seat now likely going to a pro Brexit DUP voter so will negate any loss that DUP will suffer in South Belfast or elsewhere.

General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.
The DUP made an arse of Brexit. £60 customs charges
for consignments going between NI and GB and vice versa. This will hurt them
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 06, 2019, 07:23:48 PM
The UDA/UVF probably have a reasonable say in who "working class" loyalists vote for in certain areas at least. If they don't appease them then they will lose voters.

That being said the last time they paired up was round the time of their "graduated response" around parades which still hasn't happened.

They will team up with the UDA/UVF if it is expedient for them to do so. That's fine but they can't then claim some high principled moral stance over paramilitarism links which is what they are doing in the case of Sean Kelly and SDLP. It is fairly clear already that Finucane will be the subject of a continual smear campaign in North Belfast which is just indicative of how much pressure that Dodds is under to hold that seat. I think Finucane is too clever to get involved in the mud slinging of personal attacks and needs to keep it about Brexit and Dodds record over the last 2-3 years as an arch Brexiteer/ERG apologist.

True, softly spoken and will do well with pulling in a few SDLP/Alluance and Green voters who are against Brexit - just to get Dodds out.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 06, 2019, 07:25:26 PM


General election 2017: North Down Party    Candidate    Votes    

   Independent..........Sylvia Hermon..........16,148    
   DUP.........................Alex Easton..............14,940    
   Alliance...................Andrew Muir..............  3,639    
   Green (NI)..............Steven Agnew.............2,549    
   NI Conservatives....Frank Shivers.............    941    
   Sinn Féin.................Thérèse McCartney........531    
   SDLP........................Caoímhe McNeill.............400    
   Independent...........Gavan Reynolds.................3

Looks nailed on for a DUP candidate now.

Will Gavan Reynolds be standing again?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 06, 2019, 07:30:23 PM
Alliance did very well in the most recent council elections in North Down and Ards so they would have a decent chance.

Maybe more of a chance in north Down than east Belfast?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 06, 2019, 07:30:42 PM
North Down is the wealthiest constituency in NI afaik
They are not going to elect a DUP hard Brexit goon. The UDA vote wouldn’t
be strong enough to swing it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 06, 2019, 08:51:01 PM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 06, 2019, 09:14:38 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-50316764

The DUP's David Simpson is standing down as MP for Upper Bann after a reported affair with a party colleague. He first won the seat in 2005 and has been a member of the party for decades. In a statement, he said: "In recent times it has been well publicised that I made a mistake that brought hurt to my wife and family as well as bringing heartache to another family." Mr Simpson said he was sorry for his "mistakes" and that his family had given him a "precious second chance".

"These were my mistakes and for them I am truly sorry," he said. "I have learned from my failings and my wife and children have given me a precious second chance and together we intend to look to the future together." Before becoming an MP, Mr Simpson was a member of the Stormont assembly and had also been a councillor for the party.
Image caption Mr Simpson was a member of the Stormont assembly before becoming an MP. He said the time was right to "pass the baton on".

DUP leader Arlene Foster thanked Mr Simpson for his years of consistent public service to voters and the party. "His service has been characterised by dedication to the people who elected him and his business skills and experience were used to the benefit of Upper Bann," she said. "I wish him well as he takes a new direction in life and I know that he will continue to use his many talents to the benefit of the party and the wider Northern Ireland cause."

It was a dramatic result in 2005, when he first snatched the Upper Bann seat from the then-Ulster Unionist leader David Trimble. It proved to be a landmark victory that showed how the DUP had eclipsed the UUP. Before becoming a politician, Mr Simpson had worked in his own meat business but came to prominence as the mayor of Craigavon and later an MLA. Away from the political world, he was a keen preacher and gospel singer.

In Parliament, he was not regarded as one of the party's high-flyers but was a regular contributor in the Commons and a member of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee. He was opposed to same-sex marriage, but in 2013 during a debate in Parliament on legalising it, he said: "In the Garden of Eden it was Adam and Steve" before correcting himself to "Adam and Eve". In 2017, he claimed in election literature that he had visited soldiers in Afghanistan in 2010, but it later emerged this had not happened because he could not fit into a flak jacket.

It is not clear who the party will select to replace him to stand as a candidate for Upper Bann in the 12 December general election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 06, 2019, 09:14:52 PM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.

Exactly. What might seem irrational to normal voters does not apply to DUP Brexit voters who want to play the Uber Brit. The only way I can see the DUP challenged in this constituency is if the UUP put in a strong high profile pro remain candidate and even then it would be difficult to see how they could out poll Sylvia Hermon or get close to her level of popular support.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2019, 09:47:17 PM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.

Exactly. What might seem irrational to normal voters does not apply to DUP Brexit voters who want to play the Uber Brit. The only way I can see the DUP challenged in this constituency is if the UUP put in a strong high profile pro remain candidate and even then it would be difficult to see how they could out poll Sylvia Hermon or get close to her level of popular support.

Which the UUP are not going to do. They could tack to the left (or less orange side) of the DUP and try to reclaim the center, but they always seem to try to out-DUP the DUP instead.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 06, 2019, 10:45:03 PM
Tom Watson steps down
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 06, 2019, 11:04:16 PM
Maitlis annihilating Brokenshire on Newsnight... great to see!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 07, 2019, 12:02:40 AM
On radio today, they mentioned Arlene standing in Upper Bann - was a solicitor there in bygone days!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2019, 12:58:24 AM
On radio today, they mentioned Arlene standing in Upper Bann - was a solicitor there in bygone days!!

If her workwomenship was like that of leading the DUP there will be people there that don't really own their houses or aren't really divorced.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 07, 2019, 05:39:44 AM
Firstly, best wishes to Sylvia Hermon really sad to see her stepping down. North Down now looks a complete banker for DUP. I heard rumours few weeks ago that Diane Dodds was going to run for that seat, however her name has popped up to run for Upper Bann.

Brexit Referendum 2016
Total electorate: 65,660
Turnout: 44,211 (67.3%)
Votes to REMAIN: 23,131 (52.4%)
Votes to LEAVE: 21,046 (47.6%).

NI Assembly Election 2017
DUP 14,152 (37.5%) 2 seats
UUP 8,115 (21.5%) 1 seat
Alliance 7,014 (18.6%) 1 seat
Green 5,178 (13.7%) 1 seat
Ind 1,369 (3.6%)
SDLP 679 (1.8%)
Con 641 (1.7%)
SF 591 (1.6%)

Westminster Election 2017
Sylvia Hermon (Ind) 16,148 (41.2%)
Alex Easton (DUP) 14,940 (38.1%)
Andrew Muir (Alliance) 3.639 (9.3%)
Steven Agnew (Green) 2,549 (6.5%)
Frank Shivers (Con) 941 (2.4%)
Therese McCartney (SF) 531 (1.4%)
Caoimhe McNeill (SDLP) 400 (1.0%)
Gavan Reynolds (Ind) 37 (0.1%)

After closing analysing the figures for this there is still hope for DUP to be defeated here. Could the Pro-Remain side run a independent candidate?? Does the UUP believe they can gain back this consistency? Finally does Alliance have a chance?? Views folks
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 06:27:28 AM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We’ll see what the voters think of the DUP’s Brexit efforts shortly.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 07, 2019, 07:55:35 AM
Maitlis annihilating Brokenshire on Newsnight... great to see!!!

She really did make him squirm. He had no answers at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 08:20:28 AM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We’ll see what the voters think of the DUP’s Brexit efforts shortly.

Yes we will.the “union” is the big spelling point of this election. Project fear and don’t vote themmums already started. Just look at the Hanna comments.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ardtole on November 07, 2019, 08:40:14 AM
Rumours this morning of Ian Paisley Jr standing as an ind unionist in North Antrim. Speculation at present but no smoke without fire, definitely not a united camp at present
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2019, 08:43:10 AM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We’ll see what the voters think of the DUP’s Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Pearse Blue on November 07, 2019, 08:53:12 AM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We’ll see what the voters think of the DUP’s Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.
Their Brexit efforts have obviously been a bismal, they are continually looking to be like the Torys and they are too blinded to see the british government don't really give a shit about them bar when they are trying to buy their seats. Arlene and co. are money bandits
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 09:41:16 AM
Sf I don’t think you understand the no electorate. Economics not that big a concern.
At some point the UUP and Alliance will start taking Westminster seats off the DUP. The DUP
would need to be weakened for this to happen. We’ll see what the voters think of the DUP’s Brexit efforts shortly.

The uup will do nothing.

yeah. Only hope Alliance.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:43:35 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it’s great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he’ll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Dougal Maguire on November 07, 2019, 09:46:32 AM
Re Upper Bann:I’d be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She’s hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 07, 2019, 09:47:52 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it’s great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he’ll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster

Dimmest DUP MP, nowadays some of the Conservatives would give them a run for their money on that front.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 09:59:25 AM
Re Upper Bann:I’d be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She’s hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie

Has she not been on maternity leave fairly recently? She might not be interested, as a result.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: lurganblue on November 07, 2019, 10:07:00 AM
Re Upper Bann:I’d be shocked if Carla Lockhart does win the DUP nomination. She’s hard working and popular in the area. I assume UUP will run Doug Beattie

Aye hard working getting her family members onto the RHI scheme. Popular in some areas of upper bann no doubt.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 10:17:14 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 10:21:29 AM
Re North Down, if Greens and UUP step aside and Alliance put up Stephen Farray he could give DUP a good run for their money, otherwise it’s great news for Paul Girvan because once Alex Easton gets elected he’ll then take the title of the dimmest MP in Westminster

Dimmest DUP MP, nowadays some of the Conservatives would give them a run for their money on that front.

If those two DUP lads are dimmer that Jim "expenses" Shannon then they're really in a bad way.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2019, 10:26:55 AM
It doesn't matter as the Tribe will rally to the "fleg".
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 10:33:26 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Strange one alright with Ian O'g.

He's crowd funding it seems under the leave.EU banner. Is that funded by Aaron Banks as well?

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1192042168803827714 (https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1192042168803827714)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: ziggysego on November 07, 2019, 10:34:35 AM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 10:51:50 AM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 12:09:50 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: sensethetone on November 07, 2019, 12:15:45 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 07, 2019, 12:39:12 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

That's Michelle back in, then.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: WT4E on November 07, 2019, 12:58:51 PM
When do the candidates be finalised? Assuming posters will have to be printed up soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 01:29:12 PM
When do the candidates be finalised? Assuming posters will have to be printed up soon.

Today week 4 pm.

Most posters I have seen so far have been recycled.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: GJL on November 07, 2019, 01:29:29 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 07, 2019, 01:43:57 PM
Green Party not standing in any of the Belfast constituencies
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 07, 2019, 01:46:22 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bogball88 on November 07, 2019, 01:48:18 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)


Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.
He's just after saying he hopes Martin O'Neill stays as manager of NI
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 07, 2019, 02:12:45 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)

Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

Behave! lol
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: dec on November 07, 2019, 02:13:19 PM
Apparently Kate Hoey is thinking of standing as a single Unionist candidate in Fermanagh and South Tyrone. Ugh

https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/ (https://www.impartialreporter.com/news/18018969.retiring-labour-mp-contest-fermanagh-south-tyrone-seat/)


Good. Bring her on. Looking forward to meeting her at my door.

I wouldn't pay much heed to the Lord John Taylor, he posts a lot of paranoid rubbish on Twitter, littered with racism and poor spelling. I'd say the only place Hoey would be effective in FST is in a farmer's field to keep the crows away.
He's just after saying he hopes Martin O'Neill stays as manager of NI

No he didn't, stop making stuff up.

Oh Wait

https://twitter.com/KilclooneyJohn/status/1192431366144757760
Lord John Kilclooney
@KilclooneyJohn
I hope Martin O’Neill remains Manager of Nirthern Ureland but understandably terms do matter!
8:19 AM · Nov 7, 2019
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 02:56:43 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
But that is absurd
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 07, 2019, 03:06:48 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2019, 03:24:54 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.

There's a fine line between being a troll, and being a c*nt.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 07, 2019, 03:31:12 PM
Irish Times

"Dodds joined a panel of unionist and loyalist representatives to condemn a deal the DUP is directly responsible for causing."

DUP know how to run with fox and hunt will the hounds..
But that is absurd

It's only absurd if you've a certain level of intelligence.

Lets just say the audience won't be bothering mensa anytime soon.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 03:41:11 PM
Look at their show on the shankill. People lapping it up. Needing to defend the union etc etc. If you believe it needs defending then you should realise on the past 6 months evidence it needs defending from the DUP lol.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 07, 2019, 03:52:06 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.

 :-[  :-\
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 05:22:23 PM
Taylor's trolling is legendary. I'm amazed people are still falling for his yarns.

There's a fine line between being a troll, and being a c*nt.

It's not every day that you come across such an erudite quote on this board. But today is that day.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 06:59:28 PM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.

https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1192360578595131392?s=12
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 07, 2019, 07:10:02 PM
Sounds like Mike TV and Stephen Farry. . . they'd be better off doing a Remain Alliance there in North Down because if Alliance and UUP both stand the DUP walk it.

Paisley Jnr could be a very interesting one are they bucking him out??

Very damaging last few hours for Corbyn with Watson resigning and Austin absolutely destroying Corbyn on Radio 4 this morning. It's going to be a long battle ahead with peaks and troughs for both Conservatives and Labour. Hopefully with the economic plans announced today they can start bringing a bit of positivity to their campaigns rather than shooting themselves in the foot!!

Where or what have you have heard about Paisley being bucked out??

Hoey is a horrendous individual.

https://twitter.com/dup_online/status/1192360578595131392?s=12

Jaysus only 100 pound raised in his Crowdfunder campaign so far. Wouldn't even cover a night in a cheap hotel in Sri Lanka.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 07:21:38 PM
Maybe his wee bestie Emma could lend him some of that big lump sum pay off she got, when she stepped down as a DUP SPAD.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 07, 2019, 07:47:35 PM
I can see a Tory majority of 30-50 happening quite easily, Johnson charlatan and all that is, has a bit of charm & charisma and that will be important among all the lies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 07, 2019, 08:16:56 PM
Either him or Corbyn finished. Most likely Corbyn.

Interesting regarding paisley. Believe it when I see it though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 07, 2019, 09:01:53 PM
The Tories didn’t get off to a good start. Portsmouth South is an example of the threat from Farage.
Latest polling has them on 27k with Brexit party on 9k but Lib Dems on 30k
They can’t afford to lose seats because of Farage
The Tories have no allies so need a majority
 Labour don’t. They can go into coalition with LD and SNP.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 07, 2019, 09:11:34 PM
Except, that is, for their DUP confidence & supply buddies!!!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 07, 2019, 09:22:28 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 07, 2019, 09:33:43 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

Labour need to get rid of Corbyn so Labour can get back to being a serious party not a cult run by loons
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Tony Baloney on November 07, 2019, 09:42:32 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.
If Labour had someone centre left running the party the GE would be a penalty kick.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 07, 2019, 09:51:35 PM
I think we will see a split in at least one of the Tory and Labour Party after this election. Tories have moved to the far right and Labour remain on the far left. It will change the whole landscape of British politics and whatever the outcome, Brexit will linger on without closure.

In the absence of a deal between the Tories and the Brexit Party, I think it will be another hung parliament and it depends on what deals can be done with other parties as to who out of Corbyn or Johnson will end up as prime minister. Whichever leader is defeated will be toast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 07, 2019, 10:06:18 PM
Stephen Farry has been selected to run for Alliance in North Down.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 07, 2019, 11:01:37 PM
I enjoy Naomi, Carruthers trying to tie her up but not succeeding.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 07, 2019, 11:34:03 PM
I enjoy Naomi, Carruthers trying to tie her up but not succeeding.

Dont know what you are talking about. He is asking her reasonable questions and she is giving deluded answers. Eg Alliance will Not win NB and will get 4000 votes max. She is getting herself in knots. On one hand we dont know the results as the electorate will decide sp Alliance may win anywhere but on the other hand DUP defo wont get 10 seats because of the political analysis. How the feck did Mark let her away with that contrast all in one sentence.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 07, 2019, 11:37:59 PM
She is also just lying about the south belfast votes. Alliance are clinging onto the rather dodgy last lucid talk poll. For example if they get 32% of the vote in South Antrim ill eat my hat
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 09:04:42 AM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 09:16:45 AM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Robert Shrimsley in the FT 

"Beyond Brexit, Labour has a coherent narrative. The last three years have been no advert for Tory efficiency and the last nine have not left most people feeling better off. Labour has a raft of policies with appeal to core groups. It has baubles for young and old, tenants and workers. It will not be outbid on public services. And while Mr Johnson’s spending promises play well, voters’ current experiences are of austerity and cuts. Labour can, for example, note that Mr Johnson’s promised 20,000 extra police will only restore numbers to their 2010 level. Its message of a rigged society plays strongly, not least with many of those who voted Leave. This taps into a key point. Many of those who backed Brexit did so not out of a Faragist obsession with the EU, but out of a sense that the country had stopped working for them. "
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 08, 2019, 09:19:29 AM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Robert Shrimsley in the FT 

"Beyond Brexit, Labour has a coherent narrative. The last three years have been no advert for Tory efficiency and the last nine have not left most people feeling better off. Labour has a raft of policies with appeal to core groups. It has baubles for young and old, tenants and workers. It will not be outbid on public services. And while Mr Johnson’s spending promises play well, voters’ current experiences are of austerity and cuts. Labour can, for example, note that Mr Johnson’s promised 20,000 extra police will only restore numbers to their 2010 level. Its message of a rigged society plays strongly, not least with many of those who voted Leave. This taps into a key point. Many of those who backed Brexit did so not out of a Faragist obsession with the EU, but out of a sense that the country had stopped working for them. "

Thanks for that Jeremy
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 08, 2019, 09:32:29 AM
In 2016, when SF held a commemoration in Westminster for the 100th Anniversary of 1916, up steps Corbyn to read the Proclamation.  Total respect 😊
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:06:56 AM
In 2016, when SF held a commemoration in Westminster for the 100th Anniversary of 1916, up steps Corbyn to read the Proclamation.  Total respect 😊

Sweet, give him the keys to the NHS and the education system because of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 10:10:02 AM
Could be a tough response on the doors for SF with Nurses now due to go on strike in NI. MON was the last health minister before SF collapsed Stormont and obviously didn't increase pay levels when they had the chance. Their "solidarity with Nurses" line rings a bit hollow.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 08, 2019, 10:34:17 AM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

What about "protect workers rights", "protect the nhs", protect the poor in society rather than demonise them....I think that gets you a bit further too.
For your quote above, I genuinely don't know where this opinion comes from. I hear similar things in the press or the panel shows from some people, but I have yet to hear what exact policy/policies this is based on. I'm not having a go, it's a genuine question....why do you have this opinion.
On the face of it I think Corbyn speaks a lot of sense and if I'm missing something about what he has/hasn't done I'd like to be educated!
Question Time last night, one of the panellists said that this Labour opposition have defeated the government more than any other opposition in history. I'm not sure if that's true, but if it is, surely that demonstrates that they are capable?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: marty34 on November 08, 2019, 10:40:24 AM
Could be a tough response on the doors for SF with Nurses now due to go on strike in NI. MON was the last health minister before SF collapsed Stormont and obviously didn't increase pay levels when they had the chance. Their "solidarity with Nurses" line rings a bit hollow.

NHS is a mess - whoever has it.  Slugger was on radio this morning.  In south he said, they call the Health brief Angola, as there's mindfields everywhere you turn.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:00:18 AM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.
They are going to invest in the UK and get growth going again.
No more austerity. those are solutions
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 11:05:21 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 11:12:32 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:22:41 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?

Alliance best hope is in the east. I think they have a chance. I don't think the UUP have any chance at all.

Jury is our on whether north down will move to alliance. I don't think so though.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:23:45 AM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

He doesn't help himself at times and needs to come down harder on gobshites within his own party like Ian Byrne who needs booted out.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 08, 2019, 11:36:46 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 11:43:12 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.

If anything he will be a loss to Labour as allegedly it was he that pushed hard on the second referendum policy with Corbyn against it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 11:53:17 AM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.



Are you mad? His promotion of the fantasist paedophile Carl Beech and his disgusting lies about innocent people was outright criminal. If there's any justice, he'll do porridge for it.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 11:58:12 AM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?

Alliance best hope is in the east. I think they have a chance. I don't think the UUP have any chance at all.

Jury is our on whether north down will move to alliance. I don't think so though.

I'd say ND is a safe DUP gain. The reason LSH held onto it for so long was because she abandoned the incompetent UUP long ago.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 08, 2019, 12:06:25 PM
The likes of that boy who quit the other day should have been long gone. Tom Watson was it?

Watson was his own man and had differing opinions to Corbyn but I don't think he was ever controversial in a disgusting manner like Mogg and the likes.



Are you mad? His promotion of the fantasist paedophile Carl Beech and his disgusting lies about innocent people was outright criminal. If there's any justice, he'll do porridge for it.

Whilst you've a point, I think there's plenty in the Met Police and Scotland Yard who'll also do time for the Carl Beech episode.
Using parliamentary privilege to name people without hard evidence is hardly a new thing, just ask the Paisleys.

No doubt Watson will regret his involvement in that.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:43:22 PM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 08, 2019, 12:45:33 PM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.

As opposed to Daily Mail, Express and Sun?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 12:48:16 PM
They're not solutions. They're aspirations.
There is enough money in the UK to kickstart growth.

BBC viewers seem to have a very negative view of Corbyn for some reason.

Yeah, everyone should get their news from Pravda instead.

As opposed to Daily Mail, Express and Sun?

The previous post explicitly references the BBC.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 01:09:51 PM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 08, 2019, 01:12:01 PM
Corbyn is incompetent and un-electable. Pandering to the unions and marxist left isn't what we need in a government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 08, 2019, 01:17:35 PM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

I'd prefer to have a border poll first.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2019, 01:31:12 PM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 08, 2019, 01:38:44 PM
Corbyn is incompetent and un-electable. Pandering to the unions and marxist left isn't what we need in a government.
Capital v Labour works like that

The UK economy is close to collapse. Another dose of the Tories would tip it into terminal crisis .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 02:01:32 PM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt you’ll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  It’s clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than ‘Get Brexit Done’.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering that’s your prerogative.  I just don’t see any basis for doing so.  Maybe you’d point out for us what it is that you’re basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I don’t see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that I’d disagree with him on.  But it’s a two horse race and he’s an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 08, 2019, 02:22:24 PM
The problem is that Corbyn's gang don't actually have any solutions to anything. They can just criticise. I think we can all agree "Protect the NHS" is a great idea. The most important question is "how?". You only have to look at examples of Abbott and Corbyn himself bumbling around the place unable to work their calculators to demonstrate how much spoofing they actually do.

Defeats the UK government have suffered have been down to the bungling incompetence of the Tories and the fact the UK has absolutely no idea what it wants out of Brexit, not because of some political mastery from Corbyn. Look at the way he and Labour have flip flopped all over the place with regards to the election as an example. Look at his absolute inability to stop the party fracturing. "Hey lads, let's all agree to zero tolerance on racism and sectarianism" shouldn't be a difficult concept for a Labour leader to pull together.

And don't ever forget that he's a Brexiteer himself.

The UK is absolutely fucked. If it's a choice between Johnson or Corbyn, the best option would be to pack the bags and move abroad.

Unfortunately, back in the real world, that's not really an option for most.  It is indeed a choice between Johnson or Corbyn.  So it's Corbyn every day of the week.

I've been critical of him recently, mostly due to his (lack of) stance on Brexit.  But Labour now have a clear policy on this which I feel could be supported, which is about time.

Regarding his unfitness for office due his fiscal competency, I'm not sure if you've been reading too much of the Sun or whatever but I think it's wildly overblown.  Mentioning Abbott means I suspect that you've succumbed to the Tory propaganda massage that emanated from her failure to perform correct mental arithmetic on live TV.  Saying that they don't have solutions for anything is frankly, a bit lazy.

I haven't succumbed to Tory propaganda whatsoever, you don't have to. Herself and Corbyn have repeatedly exposed an inability to either be financially competent, or articulate said financial competency. Both, unfortunately, are necessary.

As for Labour having a clear stance on Brexit, do they really? Or is it simply electioneering?

No doubt you’ll be fit to throw up a few examples of these repeated instances?

And yes.  It’s clear and simple and has a lot more of a practical ring to it than ‘Get Brexit Done’.  If you want to dismiss it as electioneering that’s your prerogative.  I just don’t see any basis for doing so.  Maybe you’d point out for us what it is that you’re basing that on?

PS. Just to be clear.  I don’t see Corbyn as some sort of saviour.  There are MANY things that I’d disagree with him on.  But it’s a two horse race and he’s an order of magnitude better than the alternative on pretty much every pertinent issue.

I'd agree with this.

Politicians are not accountants (perhaps some are) and so wont necessarily have the financial expertise to work out figures in their head or indeed on a spreadsheet. What they do need is the ability to understand the bigger financial picture based on the detail supplied and explained by the experts and subsequently make the big decisions when armed with the information.
In the same way that I'm sure the defence secretary, doesn't know how to drive a tank, fight a war or shoot a gun, they instead take a high level view with the minute detail managed by the experts.
For that reason, I don't know how opinions on Corbyn's or Abbot's financial capability are any more relevant that Boris Johnson's ability to act a foreign secretary. To me, that is all propaganda and not founded on anything close to evidence.

I think you have to base opinions on what the policies are and on the ability of the politician's to adjust their policy or view when evidence or opinion of the party or electorate change. You wouldn't be much of a politician/leader if you pick a policy or agenda then stick with it no matter what new information comes to light. A-la May and Brexit means Brexit, or Boris and leave no matter what.
This is the same argument for a 2nd referendum I suppose, but opinion changes and circumstances change so I think it's only right that policy should change or at least allow for change.

I think Labour got caught in the middle of that dilemma of there being no clear majority in favour of Leave/Remain, election/no-election, Left/Centre Left from within the party or the electorate. So they have taken time and formulated what they believe to be a policy, regarding Brexit, which would appeal to a majority. It is never going to satisfy everyone.

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.

I know which I would prefer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 08, 2019, 02:34:23 PM

The question to ask yourself is regardless of views on Brexit, would life be better in a Boris led Tory government or a Corbyn led Labour government.


We all know what happened the last time Britain had an economically left-wing government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 03:15:32 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 08, 2019, 03:19:21 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 08, 2019, 04:06:19 PM
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 08, 2019, 04:44:30 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

Says a poster ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.

Everyone is ruled over by a bunch of corrupt gombeen men.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Franko on November 08, 2019, 04:44:44 PM
Ye poor Nordies have no say in who the next "UK" (In reality English) Government will be  :-\.

It’s true.

I don’t know what’s worse though.  Not having a say, or using your say to vote into power the very party responsible for leaving your fellow countrymen in such a predicament.

And some of them aren’t even ashamed of it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 08, 2019, 05:11:33 PM
That's a matter of opinion but we can and did  vote for them.
I wont mention RHI, smugglers, intimidation blah blah.

& don't we know it....bloody DUP at their usual antics yet again
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 08, 2019, 08:24:51 PM
Very interested to hear the further thoughts of those unhappy with the Labour proposal on Brexit.

For me the GB parties are putting forward the following 5 options:

1. No deal. Apparently this is not economic catastrophe and the mandate from a plebiscite that promised A and B is to deliver C.
2. A negotiated deal that does not place customs checks between NI and GB if you believe the PM but does if you believe the Brexit secretary or the NI secretary or if you have read the document. A deal that does commit UK to alignment with EU food standards, environment standards and employment rights but can override any of these if the Secretary of State makes a statement to the House of Commons (so not passing a piece of legislation, not passing a vote, just standing and reading out a statement). Those pushing this are not ruling out No Deal as the alternative.
3. Revoke Article 50 with no second referendum and no negotiations with the EU under any circumstances. This is proposed on the basis that it will provide certainty and resolve the issue for good. Those that voted Leave will just give up.
4. Second referendum with Undefined Leave vs Remain. This is proposed on the basis that it will deliver Remain as the electorate are not stupid enough to vote Leave (despite the fact that they already have) and the Leave Campaign(s) are not cunning enough to exploit the opportunity to use an undefined Leave option to promise everything to everyone (despite the fact they already have).
5. Second referendum with a defined Leave option run off against Remain. This will require a period of negotiation to see if any of the 3 deals that EU have offered to date can be improved upon.

Anyone who wants to remain needs to pick option 5. Anyone who wants the default to Remain to be something sensible (or as sensible as Leave can be) needs to pick option 5.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 08:56:00 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories aren’t exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

I’d say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 09, 2019, 10:11:09 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

Modern political campaigns tend to depend on avoiding meeting ordinary voters wherever possible.

Incidents like Gordon Brown's 'bigoted woman' have seen to that.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 11:07:16 AM
Will the famous campaigner and man of the people Boris be meeting any actual voters during this campaign?

The befuddled mess he presented in Tandragee was the closest he came to an actual voter and the Tories aren’t exactly competing for seats in NI.

I hear there was a tiny turnout for the official campaign launch so the had to huddle the attendees in one corner and reposition the cameras to make it look like a full house.

I’d say in the TV debates the other party leaders will push him on specifics. He seems all over the place on things like detail, facts and truth. The fact checkers will be on standby and the other leaders just have to herd him in that general direction

Completely agree. It's crazy how an incompetent charlatan has ended up in this position. I hear some political commentators say that it is all an act and that he is actually a very intelligent man. If that is the case then he is a hell of an actor. I can see it getting a lot worse for him as the campaign goes on because whilst Corbyn gets in among the people and draws vast crowds to rallys, Johnson looks as though he is way out of his comfort zone in having to meet people on the frontline who are living in the real world. His friends in large parts of the media will do their best to make him appear credible but the influence of newspapers is beginning to wane in terms of effecting popular opinion. By the time this election is over I think he will be severely weakened.

When it comes to the public debates all that his rivals will have to do is attack him on these details/facts and he will be left floundering. I think he will try and steer away from as much public scrutiny as possible for fear of being exposed even more.   
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 09, 2019, 11:18:34 AM
Surely a vote for Sinn Fein is a wasted vote?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 01:05:58 PM
Corbyn is up against a pathetic, hateful government, but the public don't seem to trust him and see Boris as best of them.

That's because Corbyn and his goons are about as useful as a fart in spacesuit.

Screaming "tax the rich!" or "nationalise everything!" endlessly with zero substance behind it only gets you so far.

Do you genuinely believe the dung you post??

Has he said (or to use your fanciful language, “screamed”) nationalise everything?? If he hasn’t why do you lie about it?

Nationalisation does feature in the announcements to date. Of the services mentioned to date which do you disagree with? And on what grounds?

What part of the tax strategy announced to date do you disagree with?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 01:07:46 PM
There is a debate Johnson will be in. Hopefully they go for the jugular.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 01:19:46 PM
I presume 8 DUPUDA shoe ins, hopefully they lose both North and South Belfast but will possibly gain North Down.
Presumably 5 SF shoe ins plus hopefully North Belfast and Fermanagh/Tyrone.
SDLP hopefully South Belfast and possibly "Foyle".
Have Alliance or the cowardly UUP any chance of a seat?
Alliance have no shoe ins. They do have 2 chances in East Belfast and North Down. The dynamics in those 2 are very different.

In East Belfast they have the party leader with the profile and recognition that comes with it. They have won the seat before and they have polled strongly there this year. DUP view the seat as there own. They will do what it takes to retain. The constituency has a mix and this includes pockets ruled by paramilitaries. To win the seat back from Alliance the DUP focused on getting turnout up in those wards. They will do the same. Alliance have to focus on getting the unionist Remain vote out for them.

North Down is harder predict. When an independent incumbent drops out its harder to predict where the vote moves on. You would think Alliance is the natural home and Farry the superior candidate
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on November 09, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.


Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 09, 2019, 01:57:37 PM
So would you rather have Bojo and that right wing loonies in power.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2019, 02:12:37 PM
Another right wing racist on the loose it seems.
Muslins
Mainland

Enough said!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:22:17 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 09, 2019, 02:33:52 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

What is that list adout?
It's not a list of candidates in any one constituency. It's not even a list of party leaders.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 02:35:11 PM
Is it meps?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:40:45 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

What is that list adout?
It's not a list of candidates in any one constituency. It's not even a list of party leaders.

Lol. thats how much i know, got that from BBC.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 09, 2019, 02:43:55 PM
Where do you find the list of candidates?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 02:52:17 PM
It’s the list of candidates for a different parliament (European) on a different system on a different day that happens to have already past
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 02:54:20 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.
I working on the presumption that you are trolling for a response. You are probably not the deranged loon that this post portrays you to be.

Feel free to post something intelligible and I’ll respond
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 09, 2019, 03:00:09 PM
It’s the list of candidates for a different parliament (European) on a different system on a different day that happens to have already past

Apart from that, Mrs. Lincoln............
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 09, 2019, 06:13:00 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025)
Will this not impede all the borrowing pledges.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 09, 2019, 06:16:50 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50361025)
Will this not impede all the borrowing pledges.

Probably not. The cost of borrowing is the key. It may or may not  change by an amount that makes a difference
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 08:39:26 PM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

It’s not for anybody else to tell you how to vote, everyone will have their own priorities. Personally I’d vote candidate before party.

I think there will be a huge turnout this election if the DUPs antics in Westminster over the last 2/3 years isn’t enough to bring people out then I don’t know what will.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 09, 2019, 09:04:29 PM
alliance will win no seats. the dupers have a lock on east Belfast and robinson will hold easily. in north down the dupers were almost on terms with her ladyship and they will easily swap aside alliance.

only a pure mug would want labour to win in the mainland, the party, once the dominant force in Scotland, may be lucky to win one seat up there.  unless you are blind, deaf or dumb, the only tactic and policy for this election that labour has, is to lock in all the muslins via postal votes, and just like in the recent  bye election in peterboro, hope to steal tight marginals with these locks.  labour is now the party of islam.

Alliance won a Euro seat. Lots of middle class Protestants abandoned the DUP
Labour will beat the Tories.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 09, 2019, 09:19:33 PM
I hope you’re right but I think you are wrong.

Only twice have alliance got east Belfast. This election is different. The union depends on it. (Or alternatively the pricks who are supposed to be trying to preserve “the union” are advancing the cause of a United ireland by about a generation are stoking up tensions and claiming it’s crucial to vote for them or the union will be in trouble).
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 09, 2019, 10:03:16 PM
I hope you’re right but I think you are wrong.

Only twice have alliance got east Belfast. This election is different. The union depends on it. (Or alternatively the pricks who are supposed to be trying to preserve “the union” are advancing the cause of a United ireland by about a generation are stoking up tensions and claiming it’s crucial to vote for them or the union will be in trouble).

Correct. The DUP and loyalists have built this election into being about the future of the union and have reduced it to orange v green as with every election. Thankfully the SDLP and SF have thus far largely focussed on Brexit no point in getting sucked into their sectarian game of us v them since that will only play into their hands. It’s probably not surprising given the DUPs handling of Brexit that they want to focus on ‘saving the union’ but if they lose a lot of votes snd seats then they can’t argue if there are renewed calls for an immediate border poll in the aftermath. You can’t have it both ways.

The fact that the DUP have given prominent loyalists more prominence in this campaign indicate how scared they are of losing seats in dome constituencies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 12:32:49 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it’s that shower.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: under the bar on November 10, 2019, 01:03:34 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it’s that shower.

Look on the bright side.  Every DUPed Brexit MP returned is another nail in the coffin of the Union.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 10, 2019, 01:31:07 AM
Alliance Party
Naomi Long

Conservative
Amandeep Bhogal

Democratic Unionist Party
Diane Dodds

Green Party
Clare Bailey

Sinn Féin
Martina Anderson

Social Democratic & Labour Party
Colum Eastwood

Traditional Unionist Voice
Jim Allister

Ulster Unionist Party
Danny Kennedy

UKIP
Robert Hill

Independent
Neil McCann
Jane Morrice

Right guys got the above list from bbc website...is that the lot? I'm not into my politics at all...TBh i hate the lot of them and when i see them on the news i turn it over. I haven't voted for a while for the reason just stated as I believe they're all useless.
Having said all that I believe this election is just too important to ignore this time and i'm not faced with the problem of who do i vote for? Obviously from a Nationalist background I can rule out DUP and UUP but who else is worthy of my vote and if the truth be told is it even worth my while? I used to vote Sinn Fein all the time in my younger days but now I'm not to impressed, SDLP what is the craic with them? Alliance is being considered but is there any point in voting for a party that won't get elected? So then does it all boil down to SF? everytime i see them on TV with DUP it turns into a shouting match and then the remote control gets a new channel to change to.

I'm not taking the pi55 here folks...genuinely haven't a clue about politics

That's the candidates for the NI seats in the European Parliament back in May!

As the deadline for nominations is not until this coming Thursday (14th November), there isn't any official list of candidates for each constituency yet for the UK General Election on 12th December. Will be Friday at least, if not the Monday after (the Electoral Office will need to check that all nominations received are valid) that candidates are officially announced.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: balladmaker on November 10, 2019, 01:40:32 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it’s that shower.

Look on the bright side.  Every DUPed Brexit MP returned is another nail in the coffin of the Union.

Very true.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 09:13:02 AM
Unbelievably there has been up until point a group of people who would deny that there is a broad base of right wing newspapers that do the Tories bidding. I assume we can draw a line under that debate given the concerted plan on the front of the usual suspect papers this morning
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 11:47:50 AM
The nightmare scenario is if the DUP were to make a gain in ND, and even with losing SB, return with 10 ... that would be sickening.  If ever a party deserved to take an electoral kicking, it’s that shower.
Back in May Diane Dodds campaigned on a platform of DUP for Brexit and a stronger Union.

That worldview has collapsed. Now it’s either Brexit OR the Union . What it really means is that the DUP cannot escape the GFA. The DUP’s failure is massive. How middle class Protestants vote will depend on what they think of this.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 12:42:35 PM
Sf I still don’t think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren’t Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 10, 2019, 02:33:05 PM
Sf I still don’t think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren’t Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.

They will still do ok in certain areas but Brexit will hurt them. We just don’t know yet.
Nigel Dodds was demonstrating against a Brexit deal that the DUP did so much to support. That shows the state they are in.
 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 03:39:55 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 04:07:05 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:28:20 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!

Who you voting for? I assume it's not SF given their long history of arse sitting on the fence whilst important decisions are taken at Westminster without them.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trileacman on November 10, 2019, 05:33:05 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

Vote for someone who you think will bring a positive change to NI politics or society. Voting for the Shinners because you don't like the DUP is like watching rugby for the sole reason being that you don't like soccer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 05:48:01 PM
There are some people on here who seem to watch rugby because they don’t like rugby ;D

Yes vote for who you think will benefit you and if you think none of them then vote for the least worst...
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 10, 2019, 05:53:35 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

As long as he's inoffensive, that's fine. Good old Alliance....let's not upset anybody & we will take a hit for team NI, when our arses get too sore, from sitting on the fence. No pacts here!

Who you voting for? I assume it's not SF given their long history of arse sitting on the fence whilst important decisions are taken at Westminster without them.

I haven't voted since the referendum on the GFA, because of the woeful state of politics here - believe me, I see them all in action close up every day & it's, shall we say, pretty unedifying. However, since I have given off so much about the antics of the gun runner's daughter, I will be voting Claire Hanna on 12 December. Hopefully that's your question answered.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 10, 2019, 06:00:32 PM
As it's an undemocratic 1st past the post election -  in Nationalist majority constituencies vote for the Nationalist candidate with the best chance of taking the seat.
In others vote for whoever has a chance of unseating the DUPUDA candidate.
Depressing maybe but in the circumstances what else can ye do?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 10, 2019, 06:01:48 PM
Well like i said yesterday, I know nothing about politics only that the DUP are bigoted and corrupt as they come, I always used to vote SF but haven't voted the last few elections but this one def is as important as they'll ever be. I know it's my decision who i vote for but it just seems like i'm voting just for the sake of it and that no party deserves it, just cycling home this morning and seen election posters up around Craigavon from Alliance and i swear some young fella's face is on the poster and he looks about 17 ffs. Assuming he's older than that what the hell is that young fella going to know about it... ::)

Vote for someone who you think will bring a positive change to NI politics or society. Voting for the Shinners because you don't like the DUP is like watching rugby for the sole reason being that you don't like soccer.

In the opinion of Colum Eastwood, no
Less- Voting for someone because you don’t  like the DUP, is a perfectly reasonable position to take. I think a lot of “moderate” unionists and nationalists need to take a long look at themselves. The DUP have a 50 year unrepentant history ( in positions of power and influence) of lining their pockets, shafting others, discrimination, links with paramilitarism . There’s now an opportunity to stand up to them and knock them off some of their positions of influence . Only ~20% of the population vote for them but that’s enough to put them in positions of power to perpetuate  their dinosaur stance. Of that 20% , several softer unionists vote for them simply because they are the largest unionist party and are viewed as the best way of maintaining the union( understandable but over simplistic analysis). The reality is that probably <10% of the population here hold staunch DUP Views but we continue to allow them the upper hand. What really annoys me is the insulting analysis that being anti-DUP is being sectarian when in actual fact it is  the exact opposite
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: 6th sam on November 10, 2019, 06:13:57 PM
As it's an undemocratic 1st past the post election -  in Nationalist majority constituencies vote for the Nationalist candidate with the best chance of taking the seat.
In others vote for whoever has a chance of unseating the DUPUDA candidate.
Depressing maybe but in the circumstances what else can ye do?

In a nutshell , if you’re a genuine “nationalist” that’s the only position that makes sense . However many are “Nationalist” in name only and instead will stick to their historic party political loyalties.
The Alliance stance in this election has disappointed me, I can accept the rationale behind standing in all constituencies but whereas before the campaign they were clearly positively engaging with anti brexit parties , now they are putting party political gain before brexit and getting the boot into the SDLP rather than the DUP.

I fear this may be an election or two too early to completely crush the DUP, but we certainly have an opportunity to strike a significant blow on them. I hope the electorate are intelligent and motivated enough to take this opportunity .
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 06:56:15 PM
On the DUP they are the incumbent in 10 seats. The chances of them losing any of East Derry, North Antrim, East Antrim, Lagan Valley, Upper Bann or Strangford is Zero. So for a start they are not going to get chinned in this election. Talk of this being 1 election too early doesn’t address the fact that these seats are not under threat in the foreseeable. Disheartening though that is. For DUP to be under challenge in these constituencies you need at least 1 of the following to happen:
1. Political unionism to get its shit together and provide an alternative. Does anybody see any signs of this?
2. The sensible unionists move to Alliance in sufficient numbers. Possible.
3. A significant number of unionists move beyond constitutional based voting in a way that a majority of nationalists on this site say that they are not prepared to do. Anybody expecting this to happen?

In South Antrim and East Belfast a lot has to go right for DUP to be ousted. North and South Belfast are on a knife edge and North Down is a potential gain for DUP and their preferred candidate could well win FST. We get the politicians we deserve boys and girls.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 10, 2019, 07:07:30 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 07:28:34 PM
South belfast isnt on a knife edge. Even without the UUP pengelly is toast. Upper bann could be in play for SF in a cycle or 2. In SA people should vote for Kinahan a liberal remainer. The talk of Alliance taking this seat from nowhere is horse shit
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 07:56:01 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:30:21 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 10, 2019, 09:33:18 PM
Sf I still don’t think you understand the voting demographic in ni. In at least five or six constituencies the dup can do whatever they want. They can do anything. They aren’t Sinn Fein. That is all it takes.

They will still do ok in certain areas but Brexit will hurt them. We just don’t know yet.
Nigel Dodds was demonstrating against a Brexit deal that the DUP did so much to support. That shows the state they are in.

It’s irrelevant. They can do whatever they want and will win at least 6 seats at a canter. Look at the odds.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: illdecide on November 10, 2019, 09:40:32 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?

Upper Bann
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 10, 2019, 09:43:28 PM
Having posted here and starting to take an interest I had a conversation there in my sisters house and the census there was "you're wasting your time voting anyway as we don't matter a shite"(referring to the overall English vote etc). Maybe that's true to a point but the DUP done enough a few weeks ago to have a say on Boris...

On the issue of who i vote for...some of the comments/advice have made me more indecisive than ever. Of course i want the DUP out but as i see it it's like this...the people in this Country that come from the big massive housing estates that don't know any better and have probably never ventured far from their own doors will vote SF/DUP depending on the estate which leaves me with..."I really want to change this place but we're pissing into the wind"

Which constituency are you in?

Upper Bann

Well it should be a safe DUP seat. You never know though if Beatie can get some votes back or if there is a differential turnout then ODowd may have a chance but as I said earlier it's a long shot
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ed Ricketts on November 10, 2019, 11:37:48 PM
It's important to vote, even if you know your candidate has little chance of success. Voting isn't always about instant gratification - it can take two, three, four attempts before your man or women gets over the line. Very often when a constituency flips you can track the momentum of new representative through several earlier elections - but that momentum needs people to get out and vote.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 09:28:51 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 09:36:20 AM
It's important to vote, even if you know your candidate has little chance of success. Voting isn't always about instant gratification - it can take two, three, four attempts before your man or women gets over the line. Very often when a constituency flips you can track the momentum of new representative through several earlier elections - but that momentum needs people to get out and vote.

Exactly. The only way this place will ever change - and it really really needs to - is the apathetic voters get out there and make some difference and stop it being dominated by the bitter entrenched people.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 11, 2019, 10:18:36 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans

There are a good few veterans whose trials are long overdue. Some of them still in high public office.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 10:27:24 AM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 11, 2019, 11:35:16 AM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

Mickey Brady has been the MP for Newry/Armagh for God knows how long and I have never heard the man speak. He's never on TV or Radio.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 11:53:34 AM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/11/northern-ireland-veterans-get-new-protections-tories-announce/

Conservatives in general election manifesto pledge to end 'unfair trials' for Northern Ireland veterans

Tories playing to the gallery on Remembrance Day. This proposal is unwelcome but also doesn’t do the things the headlines pretend it does.

No impact on ongoing criminal trials
No impact on ongoing inquiries that the judiciary have instructed
No impact on future inquiries/legal cases where there has been no prior investigation
No impact on cases where new evidence has emerged

There is a lot of grey areas there on what constitutes new evidence and what constitutes a prior investigation. Grey areas that will be interpreted by the judiciary rather than politicians
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 11:54:11 AM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 12:06:11 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 11, 2019, 12:22:42 PM
Farage has fucked it then!!!! All hail king Boris!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:23:33 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:24:53 PM
He was always going to. A coward who thinks he's important and is no more than a stain on society.

Boris is clearly going to win this election. I would be very happy to be wrong but I doubt I am going to be.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 12:31:09 PM
He was always going to. A coward who thinks he's important and is no more than a stain on society.

Boris is clearly going to win this election. I would be very happy to be wrong but I doubt I am going to be.

It looks very much like it now. I think the thought of Corbyn in 10 Downing Street (he had started the campaign off well) helped make this his decision for him. Surely even Johnson can't fcuk it up from here. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 12:33:35 PM
I wonder would there be any chance of impeaching Boris at any stage. He'd definitely be a candidate for it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 12:36:03 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.

A big help to BoJo in fending off Labour and specifically LD. Not much help to him in the seats he wants to win to get a majority and or offset any he loses. Makes it easier for Labour to to say if you can’t stomach voting Tory don’t vote Brexit- they are one and the same.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Ambrose on November 11, 2019, 12:36:44 PM
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.

Anti-republican, anti hunger striker, typical modern day Shinner. Lifelong member of the Workers Party and senior member of the 'Officials' in Newry.
Ran a successful welfare advice centre in Newry and managed to increase the SF vote at the last Westminster election.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: bennydorano on November 11, 2019, 01:06:11 PM
Farage just announced that he is stepping down candidates in Tory constituencies, big boost to Boris Johnson and all Brexiteers.

A big help to BoJo in fending off Labour and specifically LD. Not much help to him in the seats he wants to win to get a majority and or offset any he loses. Makes it easier for Labour to to say if you can’t stomach voting Tory don’t vote Brexit- they are one and the same.
It's game over.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 01:21:20 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 01:48:56 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Your first sentence is simply not true. These MPs are useless. Most sit in seats that anybody no matter how useless would win under the SF brand. Others sit in constituencies that run off a useless “usun” against a useless “themun”. We have 2 electorally successful parties that run this system and hoover up the votes. What do they deliver?? We know the answer to that. SF and DUP know the answer as well.

A simple ask would be the 2 parties to publish the achievements of their candidates and where their candidate is the incumbent specifically what they have done with that office for their constituents and the people of NI.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 02:45:57 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Vote early, vote often, don't go to London too often -  that is how democracy really works. Or don't go to Stormont too often either, even though you're being paid a travel allowance to do so.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 11, 2019, 02:56:01 PM
I wonder would there be any chance of impeaching Boris at any stage. He'd definitely be a candidate for it.

Desperation.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 03:02:37 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

I think you may be correct, Farage's decision has just changed the whole election landscape.

Worse still, the Tories will fall just short of a majority and rely on the Brexit Party to form a government. I suppose it couldn't be any worse than a Tory/DUP government.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: outinfront on November 11, 2019, 03:04:55 PM
Get rid of the DUP they can sacrifice NI for an English Nationalist Brexit.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 11, 2019, 03:06:41 PM
This Brexit thing has made two of the most odious "leaders" in the history of politics (Farage and Foster) go from complete insignificance to a feeling of importance very quickly. It really hasn't been enjoyable at all.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 03:07:13 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

This is a concern.

The only hope in this election is Labour keeping a share of the Leave vote. The key to that is keeping the agenda wide and focussing on Non Brexit issues specifically some of the concerns that wrongheadedly got people talked into Leave in the first place
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 11, 2019, 03:07:31 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

At best this is naive, at worse you actually believe this.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on November 11, 2019, 03:09:08 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 11, 2019, 03:24:08 PM
With the Brexit party not standing in any seats the Torys are running in think they will now get a majority as I can see them taking a few seats off Labour

I think you may be correct, Farage's decision has just changed the whole election landscape.

Worse still, the Tories will fall just short of a majority and rely on the Brexit Party to form a government. I suppose it couldn't be any worse than a Tory/DUP government.

The Brexit party probably won't win any seats in a FPTP election but they just might take enough Leave votes from Labour to allow a Tory candidate in and that's where they've a hand to play.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 03:57:41 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/brexit-is-pushing-the-more-liberal-unionists-down-a-different-path-1.4055430

"Moderate, wealthier unionists could be turned off by hard-core Brexit rhetoric. Overlooking Shore Road is Fortwilliam Golf Club. Like a lot of the residents of this more comfortable part of north Belfast, honorary secretary Michael Graham is a Catholic and a moderate nationalist. He sees his unionist friends, however, becoming increasingly uncertain over the DUP’s Brexit strategy, which in turn is changing long-held political views.
“One of the things I’m finding about Brexit is it’s pushing the more liberal unionists down a different path than perhaps they were on before,” he says. Now, over pints, his Protestant friends discuss and debate what a ‘new Ireland’ would look like – not an extension of the Republic, but a new constitutional and political entity. “This is my Protestant friends talking to me in a language they have never used before,” he says. “To them, it’s unfathomable that the DUP should take that line of action to maintain their precious union,” he says.
However, DUP figures disagree. Philip Brett, a DUP councillor in the area who works with Dodds and was in Westminster during the dramatic hours after the deal was announced on Thursday, says: “This is one of the few issues that unites unionists from all perspectives.”
Nonetheless, Prof Duncan Morrow of Ulster University says the DUP could be vulnerable. “At the moment, part of the problem is they put all their eggs in the one basket, which has failed and come under huge criticism from the other unionist parties,” he says."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 11, 2019, 05:14:12 PM
Surely to get “Brexit done” the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as some think
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 11, 2019, 05:19:33 PM
Surely to get “Brexit done” the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as some think

They will take enough hard brexit labour voters to allow conservatives to win.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 11, 2019, 05:24:08 PM
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.

Anti-republican, anti hunger striker, typical modern day Shinner. Lifelong member of the Workers Party and senior member of the 'Officials' in Newry.
Ran a successful welfare advice centre in Newry and managed to increase the SF vote at the last Westminster election.

Must avoid Armagh like the plague, or TV for that matter.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Square Ball on November 11, 2019, 05:52:40 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 06:06:31 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

"Precious union"....me feckin hole.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 11, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

I'm just surprised that 51% do actually care, they mustn't realise that it is costing them £11 billion a year just to run the place more than what it costs them to stay in the EU p.a.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 06:42:27 PM
They don't care, really, it's just that they've never heard of the place.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 06:53:28 PM
As thought, no one gives a fook about NI

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/11/four-ten-mainland-britons-dont-care-about-northern

I'm just surprised that 51% do actually care, they mustn't realise that it is costing them £11 billion a year just to run the place more than what it costs them to stay in the EU p.a.

The £11bn is not a huge issue. Never features in debate. At less than £170 per head it’s unlikely to get traction even if a party picked it up
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 11, 2019, 07:01:06 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 11, 2019, 07:05:03 PM
Very little, cos the Free Presbyterians collect the tithe off the PUL.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 07:07:15 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

Not sure but the £11bn is net after collection of tax. So yeah a family of say 5 it’s €12.5k for public services that you wouldn’t actually receive. I just can’t see that flying with the RoI electorate

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 11, 2019, 07:26:34 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

expenditure is around £24bn, so tax is around 13Bn.
However, some argue that some tax is not clearly allocated, e.g. big companies based in Britain with substantial operations in NI.
One consequence of the new arrangements is that the sales of Tesco etc in NI will be clearer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Windmill abu on November 11, 2019, 07:57:52 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here

I am simply pointing out how democracy works.

The result of the election may not suit you as an individual, but unless you go against the will of the majority of the people in any constituency and try to impose someone else to represent them, then democracy must be observed.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 08:02:42 PM
In SinnFeins party political broadcast will they be setting out the achievements of Mickey Brady, Órfhlaith Begley (she is the MP for West Tyrone), Francine Molloy (also an MP apparently), Paul Maskey (you might know his brother Alex), Michelle Gildernew, Chris Hazzard or Elisha McCallion?

When you read this it really hits home how useless SF are

Only good thing is that it should in theory be a very short broadcast.

 ;D
Micky Brady, honestly I cant even get a picture of him in my head, and I am not saying that for effect.
Begley, mmm naw I really don't rate her or know of anything she has done. Seems nice, but robot talk all the time.
Francie, I thought he had retired. Expect him to be down the local in the corner talking shite.
Maskey, he is bald I think.
Gildernew. I like her.
Hazzard-he is on twitter now talking about Bolivia, the new Maduro feck up fro SF. Anything to appear lefty
Elisha Dolittle-Clean useless. Great that she managed to brave the rain this week. What a hero. I could stick the knife into her in so many ways but I think most people in Derry know it all already, voter fraud the latest

If all the above are as poor as you think, then no one will vote for them.

If the majority in their constituencies prefer them to the other candidates then they will elect them.

That is how democracy works.

Surely you are taking the piss here

I am simply pointing out how democracy works.

The result of the election may not suit you as an individual, but unless you go against the will of the majority of the people in any constituency and try to impose someone else to represent them, then democracy must be observed.

Not one person has argued that this is not how democracy works or that democracy should not be observed. The point was how useless the elected MPs are
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 11, 2019, 08:02:59 PM
Surely to get “Brexit done” the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as some think
Me neither
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 11, 2019, 08:05:34 PM
It would be about €2,500 per hear if we were asked to pick up that tab on re unification.
Or around €5,500 per worker......

How much tax does Westminster collect from the 6 Cos?

expenditure is around £24bn, so tax is around 13Bn.
However, some argue that some tax is not clearly allocated, e.g. big companies based in Britain with substantial operations in NI.
One consequence of the new arrangements is that the sales of Tesco etc in NI will be clearer.

Not sure that the Tesco data will be of much use. Tesco can report their UK profit however they see fit. Nothing in BoJos deal will change that. Likewise NI companies with GB operations
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: GJL on November 11, 2019, 09:09:33 PM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Orior on November 11, 2019, 09:36:00 PM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!

Oh dear. Border down the Irish sea. The DUP will find this rather upsetting.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: drillsergeant on November 12, 2019, 01:15:29 AM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!

Oh dear. Border down the Irish sea. The DUP will find this rather upsetting.

Oh won’t they just, another Conservative government selling the Ulster men out lol! It just be like 1985 Anglo Irish Agreement all over again. Arlene,Dodds,Wilson,Campbell an co. will take to streets again. What’s chances of another NEVER NEVER NEVER speech - Ulster says no campaign be on the cards.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 12, 2019, 01:24:04 AM
Conservative majority now at 4/7. No overall majority at 13/8 with Labour majority at 20/1.

As they say, bookies rarely get it wrong!

A week before the EU referendum in 2016, "Remain" was still being offered odds of winning at 1/8.

The results of the 2015 & 2017 UK GEs also went against the favourite outcome of all the major bookmakers.

And worth remembering that back in the 2017 General Election, Theresa May & the Tories were, at the same stage before election day (1 month) as we are now, riding high in opinion polls, a Conservative majority was on unbackable odds, and they were expected to have a 100+ seat majority. In the end, they spectacularly fecked that up to somehow end up in a worse position than when the House of Commons was dissolved!

Still a lot of shit to fall down between now and 12/12.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 08:44:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Hound on November 12, 2019, 09:00:00 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.
So a better deal would be a border and checks between north and south?? Because it has to be one or the other.

I think you're overstating the "terribleness" of this deal. Once the teething problems are sorted out, I think it'll be fine. Once everything is up and running goods moving from NI to GB and vice versa will be seamless with no/minimal red tape. For goods that are moving to or coming from the EU, there will certainly be additional red tape, but just the same as goods moving directly to/from NI to/from mainland EU.

I think people forget that all types of Brexit will lead to red tape for NI. Even if the border was in Ireland and there was none in the Irish sea, there would still be red tape for goods going from NI to GB, where the ultimate destination of the goods is Europe.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 09:03:25 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-what-if-corbyn-offered-sinn-f%C3%A9in-a-border-poll-1.4079555

"The question is obvious and voters in Northern Ireland have a right to an answer before they go to the polls on December 12th. What will Sinn Féin do if the election results in a hung parliament? More specifically, what will it do if its votes could make Jeremy Corbyn prime minister and he makes the party an offer it surely can’t refuse?
The offer is this: take your seats to vote me into office and support me on any confidence motions, and in return I will give you a Border poll. Does Sinn Féin really rule out such a deal? And if not, it surely needs to be honest with voters and prepare them in advance for the possibility that the policy of abstentionism is not as absolute as party dogma has always claimed it to be.


An important consideration here is that Sinn Féin has already in effect shifted its position on abstentionism. Last week the party announced it would not stand in South Belfast, East Belfast and North Down and urged its voters in those constituencies to support Remain candidates instead."
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: imtommygunn on November 12, 2019, 09:10:21 AM
How have they shifted it??
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 12, 2019, 10:31:18 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

The only "good deal" is the status quo, i.e. remain in the EU.

yes, were all going to suffer due to the right wing nut jobs in the Tory party and their mates in the DUVF (stole that from someone else).
A UI and return to the EU can't come quick enough.



Surely to get “Brexit done” the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as some think
Me neither

Read somewhere that in the European elections that for every 3 votes the Brexit party got, two were from the Tories and one from Labour.

If that ratio persists in the forthcoming General election then Labour may hold more seats than they're expected to lose them.
European elections were almost like a protest vote and parties that did well aren't inclined to do as well in a GE.


Tories are going to lose out in Scotland so they need to make up that shortfall elsewhere and then some to have a majority.

It's looking like another hung parliament.  :o
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 10:48:27 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.
So a better deal would be a border and checks between north and south?? Because it has to be one or the other.

I think you're overstating the "terribleness" of this deal. Once the teething problems are sorted out, I think it'll be fine. Once everything is up and running goods moving from NI to GB and vice versa will be seamless with no/minimal red tape. For goods that are moving to or coming from the EU, there will certainly be additional red tape, but just the same as goods moving directly to/from NI to/from mainland EU.

I think people forget that all types of Brexit will lead to red tape for NI. Even if the border was in Ireland and there was none in the Irish sea, there would still be red tape for goods going from NI to GB, where the ultimate destination of the goods is Europe.

That red tape already exists. Cross-boirder VAT is already a nightmare for small businesses. It takes 6-8 weeks minimum now to get an ROI VAT number, so scared are the Revenue of scammers.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 11:33:13 AM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

Anything resulting from Brexit was going to be worse, if the English are acting the maggot then it was always going to be substantially worse. The best you can say about the deal is that there are worse outcomes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 12, 2019, 11:47:52 AM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tbrick18 on November 12, 2019, 12:22:46 PM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

+1
Very well put, I couldn't agree more
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: maddog on November 12, 2019, 12:28:50 PM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

That's bang on Seanie.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 12:30:20 PM
Ok I get that this might be a slightly better deal than N/S checks or a border in Ireland. My point is more to do with people thinking it's funny that the DUP have been ditched. As if the consequences are completely localised to the DUP and their voters. It's such a naive view. This deal (which is awful) will have an economic impact on NI for years. So it must be opposed and in my view, we need to elect MPs who will go to Westminster and vote against it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: tyrone08 on November 12, 2019, 12:50:44 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 12, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.



Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Minder on November 12, 2019, 12:57:59 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: weareros on November 12, 2019, 01:04:13 PM
Ok I get that this might be a slightly better deal than N/S checks or a border in Ireland. My point is more to do with people thinking it's funny that the DUP have been ditched. As if the consequences are completely localised to the DUP and their voters. It's such a naive view. This deal (which is awful) will have an economic impact on NI for years. So it must be opposed and in my view, we need to elect MPs who will go to Westminster and vote against it.

The danger there is that many who would oppose it - like the DUP - would prefer a Hard Brexit; indeed they have voted for a Hard Brexit. That is a thousand times worse than the Boris deal. At this stage, the Boris deal is the lesser of two economic evils.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 01:19:30 PM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

Corbyn might be admired for consistency in his political principles. However, the problem is that he is perceived to be more interested in principle than actual achievements. Actual achievement sometimes requires pragmatism, and the perception is that Corbyn and his allies will not show such pragmatism. In creating this perception they have done Britain a huge disservice, as they have not really opposed the Tories effectively, allowing them carry on with damaging policies.

Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

Exactly. All sorts of lies circulate, for instance the idea that Ireland sends most of its exports to Britain, which could be checked in 10 seconds on Google. But people can't be bothered with the truth
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:20:03 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

The Irish are no brighter, except we've only had a socialist education system since the 90s. They've had one since the 60s.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on November 12, 2019, 01:20:07 PM
What is wrong with Alliance party at the minute. They seemed to have lost the plot recently.
They recently had the dodgy leaflet about how they were 1% behind DUP in SA and now for their latest bullshit

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10159216665739741&id=10642639740&anchor_composer=false

They have taken the rather dubious August lucid talk poll which seems to have gone to their head and they now have magically allocated the SF votes. I noticed they havent even the wit to allocate the Green vote who also have steeped aside
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:22:00 PM
Exactly. All sorts of lies circulate, for instance the idea that Ireland sends most of its exports to Britain, which could be checked in 10 seconds on Google. But people can't be bothered with the truth

Most of our 'real economy' ie non-tech exports are to Britain. You'll only see a handful of Irish products on the average French or German supermarket shelf.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 01:31:30 PM
Guys look I know it's great to gloat that the DUP have been fucked over and "border down the Irish sea" but this is a really shit deal for NI. While yes the DUP have been fucked over unfortunately we're all going to be pushed under that bus.
This is a shit deal that involves loads of more paperwork and red tape. It puts barriers on trade between East/West. In short it's terrible but it's terrible for everyone not just DUP voters.

The only "good deal" is the status quo, i.e. remain in the EU.

yes, were all going to suffer due to the right wing nut jobs in the Tory party and their mates in the DUVF (stole that from someone else).
A UI and return to the EU can't come quick enough.



Surely to get “Brexit done” the Tories will need a majority, and to do that gain current Labour seats. Brexit party will surely cut into Tory vote in some Labour seats. I don’t think it’s as straightforward as some think
Me neither

Read somewhere that in the European elections that for every 3 votes the Brexit party got, two were from the Tories and one from Labour.

If that ratio persists in the forthcoming General election then Labour may hold more seats than they're expected to lose them.
European elections were almost like a protest vote and parties that did well aren't inclined to do as well in a GE.


Tories are going to lose out in Scotland so they need to make up that shortfall elsewhere and then some to have a majority.

It's looking like another hung parliament.  :o

Depends on where the Leave voters live. There is some analysis that says Leave wins a GE by a landslide due to the distribution of votes.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 01:33:47 PM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

I’m there
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 12, 2019, 01:38:57 PM
The Tories entire electoral strategy is based on the assumption that most or enough people are thick. So thick they'll swallow the contionuos and unrelenting smears from 95% of the British media and distill it down to ridiculous assertions like "nationalise everything" as we saw earlier in this thread. Their strategy is underpinned by a horribly unequal education system so it's a solid bet unfortunately.

However, the way to beat this is not taking it on. It's to have a consistent and solid ground game and engage people on a more close and personal basis. Labour is doing this and will fight an incredible fight in this regard. Despite the horrific things he has been smeared with, the general consensus of those who've met him is that Corbyn is an absolute gentleman, full of empathy and respect and dignity. His consistency in his political viewpoints is undeniable. If wanting good healthcare, good education and equality are communism well then I guess I'm a communist too! The reality is that these fanciful labels like "communist", "Stalinist" and "socialist" are trotted out by the rich and powerful because they're afraid. Not just afraid of having to pay more taxes. They're afraid that everyone will get a chance in life similar to what their families and friends have had for generations.

It just amazes me that Corbyn is seen as a "threat". There is no bigger threat to Britain & Ireland, Europe than the Tories. With the Tories you're guaranteed a no-deal or bad deal Brexit and the economic carnage that will ensue. Who do you think they'll prioritise when the shit hits the fan? Labour offers the prospect of remain or a less damaging Brexit. And a fair chance for everyone. Properly funded public services.

Very well put.

Corbyn is genuine and somebody I could relate to. I wouldn't necessarily agree with all of his policies but his intentions are real in looking for a fairer society where the wealthy contribute more in tax for a better education system and health care for all. Those ERG upper class privately educated Tories are totally removed from the real world, theirs is a life of privilege. A bunch of me feiners. The majority of the print & broadcast media are Tory leaning and this can have an influence on voters perceptions particularly for those who don't delve into the details. There is a real fear of a Corbyn led government within large sections of UK media and political circles and I expect that the continuous smears will heighten as the election gets closer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 01:44:52 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Denn Forever on November 12, 2019, 01:55:25 PM
Wasn't it something he wouldn't sign?  A particular phrase?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 01:56:45 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Crete Boom on November 12, 2019, 02:42:03 PM
Spot on but you underestimate how thick the normal brit is. All you see on the news is smearing of labour and JC. It's ironic that given the age of smart phones we now have the ability to check or disprove any claim within a few minutes on Google. Unfortunately it seems the vast majority can't be bothered to do so.

The Irish are no brighter, except we've only had a socialist education system since the 90s. They've had one since the 60s.

What the f**k are you on about? I went to school in the 90's and it was a bog standard shitbox cold all boys catholic secondary school. It was only socialist in that teachers and students were both subject to the same freezing cold dump buildings with f**k all resources!!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 02:50:30 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 02:50:47 PM
Corbyn doesn't help himself with his latest tweet in support of McDonalds staff wanting £15 an hour. Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

For the many, not the Jews
Nobody mentioned antisemitism in Labour until 2015 when Corbyn became leader. Israel runs apartheid in Gaza and the West Bank and young people have turned against it because of the human rights abuses. This was a huge shock to the Zionist elite in the UK who thought that UK support for whatever Israel did was guaranteed. All of the major Zionists orgs in the UK went after Corbyn.
Sanders in the US has equated antisemitism to the oppression of the Palestinians. Things are changing and Zionists don't like it.

There is no apartheid in Gaza or the West Bank. Israel doesn't even run Gaza, with its luxury hotels (check Booking.com), shopping, apartments and world class beach. Your "zionist elite" and "zionists don't like it" barbs fall within the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism.

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 03:18:17 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 03:43:17 PM
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/11/12/brexit-party-haemorrhaging-support-nigel-farage-hand/

Mr Farage did not deny rumours of a rapprochement brokered by US President Donald Trump, who is close to both the Brexit Party leader and Boris Johnson. 
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:47:40 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:48:34 PM


What the f**k are you on about? I went to school in the 90's and it was a bog standard shitbox cold all boys catholic secondary school. It was only socialist in that teachers and students were both subject to the same freezing cold dump buildings with f**k all resources!!

You were lucky to get through it before the Labour crowd started messing with the curriculum.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 03:50:48 PM
There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks.

No. There are rich and poor everywhere but apartheid is not everywhere.
If "Israel runs the population register in Gaza" why do Hamas refuse to hold elections?
Undue singling out of "zionism" is the essence of modern anti-semitism.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 03:53:37 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 12, 2019, 03:59:09 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

But you probably get free grub in McDonalds also!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 04:01:20 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA

Ok you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "luxury".
It's got a 3.4 review and it looks like a an absolute kip. It's last review was 6 months ago and when I tried to book a room it said contract the property which makes me think that this "luxury hotel" may now be a pile of rubble.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 04:29:11 PM

I checked booking.com and there are no luxury hotels on the Gaza strip.

Quite correct. They're no longer listed there, but google still has a few

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIq8Gc4smQ_ZngARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAHoECAoQIA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA
https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Gaza%20Strip/entity/CgsIg9rKj76t092ZARAB?g2lb=2502405%2C2502548%2C4208993%2C4254308%2C4258168%2C4260007%2C4270442%2C4274032%2C4285990%2C4288513%2C4289525%2C4291318%2C4296668%2C4301054%2C4302823%2C4305595%2C4308216%2C4313006%2C4315873%2C4317816%2C4322168%2C4329287%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517%2C4292955%2C4316256&hl=en&gl=ie&un=1&q=gaza%20hotel&rp=EKvBnOLJkP2Z4AEQg9rKj76t092ZATgBQABIAg&ictx=1&ved=2ahUKEwiJ0c-sguXlAhV-TxUIHRX1B3QQvS4wAXoECAoQKA&hrf=KhYKBwjjDxAMGAcSBwjjDxAMGAgYASgAkgECIAE&tcfs=EhoaGAoKMjAxOS0xMi0wNxIKMjAxOS0xMi0wOFIA

Ok you don't seem to understand the meaning of the word "luxury".
It's got a 3.4 review and it looks like a an absolute kip. It's last review was 6 months ago and when I tried to book a room it said contract the property which makes me think that this "luxury hotel" may now be a pile of rubble.

There's more than 1 place linked.

Pretty luxurious for what's supposed to be an 'open air prison'  ::)
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 05:00:03 PM
There sure is apartheid. Jews in Israel/Palestine earn 10-15 times what Palestinians do.
That's apartheid.
Israel runs the population register in Gaza and remains the occupier. 
The IHRA definition counts anti Zionism as hatred of Jews.
It's bollocks.

No. There are rich and poor everywhere but apartheid is not everywhere.
If "Israel runs the population register in Gaza" why do Hamas refuse to hold elections?
Undue singling out of "zionism" is the essence of modern anti-semitism.

Zionism is racist and has SFA to do with Judaism, which emphasises justice.

Jews are systematically better off than Palestinians living in the same political space.

Israel                 GDP per head USD 41,644
West Bank          GDP per head USD 1924
Gaza                  GDP per head USD 876

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: omaghjoe on November 12, 2019, 05:23:28 PM
A key feature of apartheid was that blacks would have a homeland, which were run by the inhabitants and not by the South Afrian regime. Tho I think they had massive subsidies and controlled migration to and from. There were a dozen or so of these homelands operating inside SA during apartheid.

The parallels with the modern  Holy Land are extraordinary  and interestingly as regards this current discussion there was many elite resorts such as sun city that were run inside these homelands.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 05:49:40 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 12, 2019, 06:31:26 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

Seafoid is basically an online Jeremy Corbyn so hardly surprising
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 06:41:37 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don’t.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:45:04 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don’t.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.

You mentioned separate roads. I debunked it in seconds. You could have reseached it before you wrote it but instead you lied. You lose.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 06:48:44 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn’s constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I’m not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it’s an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 06:55:42 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn’s constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I’m not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it’s an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

I'd guess that most of the people who work at entry-level grades in your average McDonalds are students or other young people who live at home and don't have to put roofs over their heads.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 12, 2019, 07:25:27 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html
Have you ever been to the West Bank?

Jews and Palestinians have separate number plate systems. Jews are subject to Israeli civil law. Palestinians are subject to Israeli military law. Jews have enforceable property rights. Palestinians don’t.

The politics are changing now. Sanders opposes the occupation. So do most young people.

You mentioned separate roads. I debunked it in seconds. You could have reseached it before you wrote it but instead you lied. You lose.
Adam Levick is a Zionist spin merchant. Israelis have no answer to the charge of apartheid so they deny it.

Israel runs checkpoints on Palestinian roads. There are none in the Jewish road system. The article is bollocks.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 07:26:44 PM

Adam Levick is a Zionist spin merchant. Israelis have no answer to the charge of apartheid so they deny it.

Israel runs checkpoints on Palestinian roads. There are none in the Jewish road system. The article is bollocks.

No checkpoints? I'm going!
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:28:45 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn’s constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I’m not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it’s an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

I'd guess that most of the people who work at entry-level grades in your average McDonalds are students or other young people who live at home and don't have to put roofs over their heads.
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 12, 2019, 08:45:50 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:47:05 PM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 12, 2019, 08:52:51 PM

So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

How do you know they don't?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 08:56:23 PM

So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

How do you know they don't?

I never said that they don’t. I’m teasing out the point made by others. See the post by 5 points that you deleted in order to quote me
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 12, 2019, 09:29:53 PM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn’s constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I’m not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it’s an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere. But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative. It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs. Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 12, 2019, 10:54:50 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn’t say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It’s just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that


It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven’t heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I’m willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don’t pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I’m unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 07:04:05 AM
Minimum wage is £8.21 an hour for someone aged 25 and over.

Time for real change

I'm up for helping people but £15ph for this sort of work is not realistic. I run my own business and if the minimum wage was £15ph I'd be out of business pretty quick. Don't forget you have NI contributions and employers tax to pay on top of that.
It's these sort of crazy economics from Labour that scare people who create businesses and jobs.

Talk me through this. On £8.21 in Corbyn’s constituency how long would your working week need to be to achieve non poverty levels of accommodation, food, clothing and heat. At this stage I’m not even getting into things like a pint or a tv or a movie?

At £15.00 how would it improve?? What is the propensity to spend by people earning £15.00 per hour.

Particularly interested in the bits of this you describe as crazy?

They might not get £15 it’s an opening salvo but £8.21 is obscene

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere. But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative. It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs. Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.
That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

That’s a standard business as usual view of minimum wage. But UK wages post inflation are 15% lower than in 2007. This is not business as usual. Unemployment is very low yet the tax take has not improved. This is very strange. Most of the new jobs are low pay. Plus the UK has a current account deficit. It all builds into a very challenging picture a long way from business as usual.
It’s a different model that requires different thinking.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 07:35:16 AM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?

You hardly need me to explain how working in McDonald's is a shit job.

Shit company, shit product, shit atmosphere, shit HR policies.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 08:59:34 AM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn’t say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It’s just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that


It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven’t heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I’m willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don’t pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I’m unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures

I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: t_mac on November 13, 2019, 09:04:29 AM
Poor Trailer - Bless - called out and going run away.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 13, 2019, 09:29:30 AM
£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 09:49:50 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:02:47 AM
So why do people with homes and families and responsibilities and families not work there?

Because it's shit?

In what way?

You hardly need me to explain how working in McDonald's is a shit job.

Shit company, shit product, shit atmosphere, shit HR policies.

I have no idea if mcDonalds is a shit company to work for.
I don’t suppose staff really care about the product

Wages and conditions tend to be people’s main concern and viable alternatives they have
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:05:05 AM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn’t say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It’s just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that


It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven’t heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I’m willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don’t pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I’m unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I’m happy to engage
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 10:10:22 AM
£15 / hour is about the same as £30k per year!! For working in McDonalds! **

What does that mean then for a supervisor's salary; for a manager's salary!!
Workers will want to maintain their wage differentials relative to other workers.  Teachers should be paid more than classroom assistants and will want to maintain their salary differentials. 

A minimum salary of £15/hour would have a major impact on wage-driven inflation - in a short period of time you would find that £15/hr wouldn't be enough to get by on either? 

Those in the lowest skilled, zero qualifications required jobs, that can be done part-time by 16 year old students, will always find themselves on the lowest wages and struggling to make ends meet.  There is income support in the form of working tax credits for these people.  Perhaps there needs to be more support, to ensure that these people are not falling between the cracks into a benefit trap. 

There is no doubt that inequality has increased.  As a percentage (and certainly in absolute terms), I suspect that there is a widening gap between Doctors and Nurses, Senior Executives and Administrators etc. That ought to be addressed, but you don't address it with fantasy economics, pretending that someone working in McDonalds can have the lifestyle of someone currently working at £30k p/a because that is simply not realistic or sustainable! 

** Edit - I realise that the poster above didn't say £15/hour.

“These people”. Probably just a slip of the keyboard

Wage differential isn’t the resolution here. They exist and will persist. The point is people on the lowest rung have to live and a civilised society needs to address what sort of living they can afford. Current system is cracked.

I can’t sit down and tell someone below the poverty line and in full time work that they can’t have a decent wage because others would have to get a pay ride as well
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 10:43:10 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: TheOptimist on November 13, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 11:01:21 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

They still are a shit company. They even treat their executives like shit. https://www.thejournal.ie/mcdonalds-ceo-departure-steve-easterbrook-4877995-Nov2019/ We shouldn't be basing our key macroeconomic policies on the practices of shit companies.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 13, 2019, 11:03:28 AM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?

The McDonalds corporation made more because they are taking a bigger slice from franchise owners as well as increased revenue

The current profit margin of 4%-6% for restaurant owners would be closer to 1%-2% if they were paying staff £15hr.

Salary is paid by the restaurant owners so McDonalds themselves dont dictate salary
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 13, 2019, 11:04:45 AM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.
 
According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 12:10:55 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn’t say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It’s just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that


It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven’t heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I’m willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don’t pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I’m unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I’m happy to engage

I didn't tell any lies
I'm not huffing, I'm calling you out for being a cheeky, ill mannered cnut.
You're grand, I'll make my point without engaging with you.

So having said that

£15ph for flipping burgers or doing any sort of low skilled job is crazy economics.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 13, 2019, 12:22:24 PM
There are alway going to be people in low skill, low paid jobs due to having no or limited qualifications. The reasons for that are a totally separate and more complex debate but paying someone £15 an hour to work in McDonalds isn’t sensible. I’m sure Jeremy Corbyn knows this but it’s election time so we are going to hear all sorts of nonsense that will never happen.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 12:29:44 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 12:44:41 PM
Median US wages are more or less the same as in 1975. Wages have been suppressed in favour of capital growth. This is the system.
If Labour win the system will change and those at the bottom will get preferential treatment. This is how capital versus labour works.
The billionaires have a lot of fat.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on November 13, 2019, 12:55:59 PM
The problems are not wholly related to wage. They are as much related to cost of living.

What proportion of a wage was spent on funding the roof over your head in the 1950s? 1970s? 1990s? Now?

I would expect it has risen for 99% of people.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 01:04:40 PM
The problems are not wholly related to wage. They are as much related to cost of living.

What proportion of a wage was spent on funding the roof over your head in the 1950s? 1970s? 1990s? Now?

I would expect it has risen for 99% of people.
in 1980 50% of housing in London was social housing.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 01:59:11 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.

Context.
Quote
However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians.

* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can’t guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas.

Sauce for the goose & gander doesn't exactly connote apartheid.

If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?


Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:07:05 PM

You see , you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere

Why are you resorting to lies?
I didn’t say this. You have invented it.
It cannot possibly help your argument. It’s just a lie. Your lie

But how much does a trades person then get an hour? What about other skilled people? It's all relative.
Wages are relative. I think most people get that


It push wages up everywhere, which in turn pushes up costs.
The educational value of this site grows

Who has to stump up? The consumer. Businesses don't absorb these costs. In real terms, probably no one is better off.

Society already stumps up. Housing allowance?? In work benefits?? Food banks??

Is the market working well enough for you for us to leave it well alone??

That's why this is crazy economics.

I get that it is difficult to make ends meet on £8.21 ph, but it's a multi faceted solution. Working families have always struggled to make ends meet going right back over this past 100 or 200 years. It's not a new problem and just simply paying people more isn't the answer.

I haven’t heard any of your multi-faceted solution but I’m willing to listen.

The fact that poor people are poor is no reason to leave them poor.

Again don’t pretend that anybody claimed that paying people more was a magic bullet or a single solution . The attack was on Corbyn. Has he not put forward a fully costed package of measures in 2017 and is expected to do the same this weekend? I’m unaware of anyone in Labour who has argued that addressing low wages was anything other than a part of an overall suite of measures


I tried to have a grown up discussion with you, but you've resorted to being a cheeky cnut.

How did telling lies fit into your grown up discussion.

You were found out and called out and are now huffing.

If you would like to revert to the substantive points I’m happy to engage

I didn't tell any lies
I'm not huffing, I'm calling you out for being a cheeky, ill mannered cnut.
You're grand, I'll make my point without engaging with you.

So having said that

£15ph for flipping burgers or doing any sort of low skilled job is crazy economics.

Crikey

Lets start with the lie.

Firstly you posted this about me.
you see £15 per hour for minimum wage and think that solves all problems everywhere.
Deny this if you will but lets face it I am going to find it pretty easy to prove that you did in fact post it.

Secondly it isn't true and is therefore a lie. Deny it if you will but at least have the decency to post the proof that you are  relying upon.

While I'm at it I not sure how you are substantiating the accusation of me being wither ill-mannered or cheeky. I am however guilty as charged of being a cnut so I'll that one pass.

Anyway I'm sure all that is dullx3 for anyone else to read

So the substantive issues. Currently we have a significant number of people in full time work living below the poverty line. If we excluded public support (housing allowance, in work benefits etc) the number would be a lot higher. Is this good? Should we leave well alone? If not what should we do? Happy to consider multi-faceted responses
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 02:07:18 PM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2019/new-uup-chief-steve-aiken-looks-to-unseat-dup-stalwart-sammy-wilson-38685615.html
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: magpie seanie on November 13, 2019, 02:11:33 PM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.
 
According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.


There's a lot in that that strays from the central argument. Firstly, I don't believe that what's being sought here is an increase for every worker. So the 60000 FTE's getting a pay rise isn't realistic. Personally I'd feel that running McDonald's in the UK wouldn't be as difficult a job as PM so getting £783k (only one person I know but I'm sure there are several very well paid executives and managers) seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd suggest savings could be made on the higher end salaries. Or perhaps if pay increases are a no-no then the company could use some of their massive profits to provide other benefits for staff....to make it less of a "shit" place to work. Of course that's not their economic model. They don't want people to stay long term. They want to pay as little as possible in wages and don't mind high staff turnover.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 02:13:14 PM

Israel runs 2 legal systems and has separate roads for Jews and non Jews.
It's pure apartheid.

At least one dirty lie there and probably two.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/yourview/dispelling-the-myth-of-jews-only-roads-in-the-west-bank-856339.html

That  article makes clear that  there are  some roads  where Palestinians are banned. It also makes clear that people have different number plates, which is in itself a form of apartheid.

Context.
Quote
However, for security reasons, a very small percentage of West Bank roads around Israeli settlements (about 40 km in total according to the Israeli human rights organisation B’tselem) are prohibited to Palestinian traffic. But, even these 40 km of restricted roads are open to Israeli citizens of all faiths (including Muslims), east Jerusalem Palestinians (most of whom are Muslim), and foreign visitors of all faiths – Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians.

* Moreover, even the 40 km of restricted roads in Israeli controlled sections of the West Bank (Area C) should be placed in context. Israelis, for instance, are not permitted to drive on roads in the Palestinian controlled West Bank (Area A). This is because PA security personnel (and the IDF) can’t guarantee the safety of drivers with Israeli license plates travelling in Palestinian areas.

Sauce for the goose & gander doesn't exactly connote apartheid.

If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.
West Bank Palestinians aren't allowed into occupied East Jerusalem to pray. West Bank Jewish settlers are. That's apartheid.
Every time Israel has an election Palestinians in the West Bank are locked down. The real sign is in incomes. Israeli GDP per head is $41k. Gaza is $876
Jim Crow in Alabama was the same. A money racket. 

Israel could end up destroying Judaism. Drops out rates amongst young US Jews are very high.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 02:16:50 PM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?


Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Taylor on November 13, 2019, 02:32:24 PM
Note what I said about inequality - particularly the salaries of top execs.  I don't think it is defensible.
 
According to McDonald's website, they employ 120,000 people in the UK**.  Let's assume that relates to 60,000 Full Time Equivalent. 
If McDonald's paid an extra £2.50 per hour for 60,000 employees,  and didn't pass the extra cost onto their customers, it would wipe a profit of £341m out entirely.  That's OK if you don't want profit taking. But profits can a good thing.  It provide's a return for shareholders (often pension funds), an incentive for investment and retained profit can provide the means for reinvestment.  If you wipe out McDonald's profits by giving an extra £2.50/hour to the workers, does that make the business more or less sustainable for the self-same workers and McDonald's suppliers.  It's also worth asking, what level of profit is acceptable - £300m?, £200m? £10m?. 

Whether people like it or not, there is a market for labour and successive governments have correctly intervened in the market to first provide for a minimum wage and then provide a living wage.  There are working tax credits (again maybe these should be increased) to provide a minimum basic income for workers.  However, it is not sustainable for people to go from earning £8/hour to £15/hour overnight, because all that will happen is that will happen is that  the cost of doing business and the cost of living will rise accordingly and the lowest skilled jobs will still end up being the lowest salaries in real terms. 

** Just seen the point above about the franchise owners and I'll admit that I don't know much about their model.


There's a lot in that that strays from the central argument. Firstly, I don't believe that what's being sought here is an increase for every worker. So the 60000 FTE's getting a pay rise isn't realistic. Personally I'd feel that running McDonald's in the UK wouldn't be as difficult a job as PM so getting £783k (only one person I know but I'm sure there are several very well paid executives and managers) seems absolutely ridiculous so I'd suggest savings could be made on the higher end salaries. Or perhaps if pay increases are a no-no then the company could use some of their massive profits to provide other benefits for staff....to make it less of a "shit" place to work. Of course that's not their economic model. They don't want people to stay long term. They want to pay as little as possible in wages and don't mind high staff turnover.

It doesnt matter how much money you take off the executives Seany - this cannot filter to the staff.

McD franchise model means the % they take off the restaurant owner is set for up to 20 years. Thats in a legal document.

It is the restaurant owner that exclusively pays the salary to the staff - nothing to do with McD as a corporation.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 02:56:21 PM

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Yes, I'm happy to say that - while also saying that McDonalds is a shit company. Because when governments get into the business of shutting down shit companies, it never ends well for anyone, least of all those who depend on low-grade employment to put food on the table.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:05:13 PM

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Yes, I'm happy to say that - while also saying that McDonalds is a shit company. Because when governments get into the business of shutting down shit companies, it never ends well for anyone, least of all those who depend on low-grade employment to put food on the table.

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?

If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 13, 2019, 03:12:56 PM
If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Likely in a West Bank settlement.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:22 PM

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?
I honestly can't remember, it was 20 years ago. I've read and seen in practice a lot of economics since though.

Quote
If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?

McDonalds will never shut down though, least of all in response to higher staff costs. They'll just continue to automate and their "restaurants" will employ fewer and fewer staff.
Title: Re: UK General Election December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:13:56 PM
If security-related road access restrictions and different number plates for different territories really mean apartheid, I grew up in an apartheid zone.

Likely in a West Bank settlement.

West bank of the Erne more like it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: johnnycool on November 13, 2019, 03:28:27 PM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?


Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
For context - McDonald's in the UK made profits of £341 million last year with one Director being paid £783k.


Sorry - was in a rush when I typed this and meant to say that was a 19% increase in profits. This is a big company making big profits and paying top Executives handsomely. I don't think £15/hr should be the minimum wage but certainly McDonald's can afford to pay that and should.

The economic model in place in Britain (and a lot of Western Europe and the US and perhaps elsewhere) presently is grossly unfair and is only going to go one way. Major changes are needed.

A minimum wage of £30k per year would put alot of businesses out of business.

I used to work in McDonalds as a student. Hated it, couldn't wait to work myself up to something better. Maybe McDonalds staff should do that if they want to earn more?


Maybe read what I posted again because you've stated something that I clearly agreed with in such a way as to make it appear I disagreed.

As for the comments on what other people should do with their lives - how do you feel when people tell YOU how to live your life? Do people not deserve to get an adequate wage for work they perform? If in this case the answer is no then clearly the business is not viable. Or addtitional profits are being made on the backs of underpayment of workers. Whichever it is I don't think it's good and it's becoming less and less sustainable as an economic model.

Before I go on I not hugely interested in McDonalds as a corporation nor am I adamant that I attach any significance to the £15.00 per hour figure.

But as they are the matters in the spotlight I'll run with the example.

If McDonalds paid a living wage (relative to the location) to their lowest skilled staff the 1 or more of the following 3 happen:
1) McDonalds dont pass on the wages increase and its cut into McDonald's profits.
2) McDonalds pass on the wage increase to consumers who accept it as the see it it as value.
3) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it. Business ceases to be viable.
4) McDonalds try to pass on the wage increases to consumers who don't wear it Business then agrees to absorb the costs and reduce share dividend and reduce Directors and executives salaries accordingly

Which 1 of the 3 are we scared of? Or are we saying that its socially necessary that McDonald's exist and the lowest skilled workers are the ones that have to take the squeeze to make it happen?

Added in a point 4 that no one seems to talk about.
4 is a variant of 1.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 03:43:45 PM

Did you see the original introduction of the NMW, its subsequent increases or rebranding as a NLW as the government "shutting down shit companies"?
I honestly can't remember, it was 20 years ago. I've read and seen in practice a lot of economics since though.

Quote
If McDonalds did shut down what would happen to the money spent in it - would it evaporate from the economy? What would happen the meals served in McDonalds - would those people just not eat?

McDonalds will never shut down though, least of all in response to higher staff costs. They'll just continue to automate and their "restaurants" will employ fewer and fewer staff.

Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,

Your automation point is completely valid. I get that. That is one of the reasons why the minimum wage can only work as an element of an overall suite of policies.

A future where business operating on line attach a separate tax structure to those paying property rates is likely to be not far away. the use of technology to displace labour on the high street is a similar challenge. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 03:47:21 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2019, 03:56:28 PM
I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that. They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph. When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 13, 2019, 03:57:25 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 04:05:03 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.
Ultimately GBP 15 per hour is like homelessness, poverty in Yorkshire and the alcoholism of ex army people- it's political.

£15 per hour for middle-class students and youngsters definitely is political.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:17:11 PM
Business can fail. Not being to able charge enough for your product to pay your wages would be one of the reasons. Its not a reasons for telling a section of society that they have to accept a wage that you cannot life of though,


There's no compelling reason why students and youngsters living with mum and dad should of right be entitled to £15 an hour though.

On the other hand, if you need a decent job that will feed, clothe and shelter you and your family, you won't bother looking at the likes of McDonalds.

As I said before i'm not focusing on McDonalds per se. We have a wider  issue of wages, especially for low skilled workers and for terms and conditions of labour. I would not be flippant about the availability of real jobs for low skilled labour. By real I mean jobs that not only offer a living wage but worker protections regarding working hours, annual leave, breaks, sick pay and working conditions.

There has been a slew of claims by politicians and some commentators in the media regarding UK employment figures that fall very far short of real jobs. The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable. Its something that needs to eb engaged with   
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 04:26:10 PM
I have no problem with "Executives" being paid 500k, 600k or £1m+ per year. If they generate profits and grow businesses that then employ more people directly or indirectly then I'm ok with that.
I agree with that in as far as it goes. I would go further though. Not every effort that generates profits and creates employment is equally ok. Obviously one that created employment that paid a living wage would be better than one that didn't. An important distinction.

They of course should pay their fair share of tax.
Couldn't disagree

Some people think that those in charge should be on minimum wage and those on minimum wage should be on 15ph.
Name one person that thinks that?

When you clock out at McDonalds (or any other low skilled job) you get to go home and not think about anything to do with work until your next shift. When you're accountable to other management, investors, and have to worry about numerous financial commitments the business has then you don't have that luxury.
Remember if it was easy everyone would be doing it.

So the low paid live a low stress life?

I am not saying the following to be a troll but you do sound a wee bit like Jacob Rees Mogg or that intellectual and humanitarian Dominic Rabb
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 05:01:40 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 13, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 05:16:50 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Kidder81 on November 13, 2019, 05:51:58 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

I assume most will be on some sort of state support such as Universal Credit or tax credits
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:11:42 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:14:02 PM
The movement towards gig economy style labour markets is neither benign nor inevitable.

I think the gig economy thing is a fad that will burn itself out, if it hasn't already started to do so. I know quite a few people who went in to things like couriering as self-employed and none of them stick it too long.

https://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/search/video?fr=mcafee&p=sorry+we+missed+you+trailer#id=1&vid=9aed69e9d77ace08a154f5455fad3cc6&action=click

You would hope that the truth is not stranger than fiction but this is possibly the most thoroughly researched script yet

I find Ken Loach insufferable tbh. Each one to their own but to me he's a propagandist.

Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:18:17 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:21:32 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It’s a freedom i’ll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:26:24 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It’s a freedom i’ll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?

Not interested in explaining. As I said I find him insufferable and sometimes hypocritical. But its not something I deeply care about.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:29:05 PM
Do you think the scenarios he projects are untrue?

Probably half- and quarter-truths more than blatant untruths. (That's what propaganda tends to do.)  It's a personal opinion. You are free to disagree.

It’s a freedom i’ll gladly exercise.

Talk of half and quarter truths is evasive tending towards extremely evasive. What is he saying that is not true?

Not interested in explaining. As I said I find him insufferable and sometimes hypocritical. But its not something I deeply care about.

So no evasion there then
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:32:35 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: smelmoth on November 13, 2019, 06:53:23 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.

Not trying to win anybody over. You say he is a propagandist and deals in half truths. You offer nothing to back that up.

This forum descends into chaos if posters can throw anything out there offer no evidence to support it and run away when challenged. You could claim anything on here if people are going to engage in that sort of intellectual dishonesty
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: five points on November 13, 2019, 06:57:40 PM
So no evasion there then

So what if there is. If you feel you can win me over to him, the stage is yours. But I couldn't give a toss.

Not trying to win anybody over. You say he is a propagandist and deals in half truths. You offer nothing to back that up.

This forum descends into chaos if posters can throw anything out there offer no evidence to support it and run away when challenged. You could claim anything on here if people are going to engage in that sort of intellectual dishonesty

It's a personal opinion, not an argument, so talk of evidence or intellectual dishonesty ;D is moot. I'm neither interested in arguing about him nor in somehow convincing you that my opinion is justified or that you should share it. Get over it.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 13, 2019, 07:09:54 PM
Has the election been & gone already, since nobody on this thread has mentioned it for weeks? What was the result?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on November 13, 2019, 07:45:11 PM
Has the election been & gone already, since nobody on this thread has mentioned it for weeks? What was the result?
Well surely its a done deal with this brilliant sell here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=97zPDojMWiQ&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Eamonnca1 on November 13, 2019, 09:02:03 PM
Jesus wept. How embarrassing!
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Jim Bob on November 13, 2019, 09:21:28 PM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 13, 2019, 09:36:07 PM
Former Labour MP Kate Hoey says she will vote DUP in General Election

Wish to feck she would just stay in Vauxhall & mind her own business.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 14, 2019, 09:52:03 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this. 
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: HiMucker on November 14, 2019, 10:08:32 AM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
That will certainly put off a lot of upper class tories ;D
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 10:20:01 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2019, 10:31:20 AM
80% pay rises, 32 hour working weeks, Brexit will be great.....Tooth fairy,.....
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: blewuporstuffed on November 14, 2019, 10:38:06 AM
Drinks his tea with the teabag still in it
Thats the worst cup of tea ever
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: APM on November 14, 2019, 10:55:08 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

I don't disagree with any of that.  But it doesn't take away from the point that I'm making that this kind of stuff is for the fairies.  There might be immediate gratification for anyone on the min wage getting a 80% pay rise with a short honeymoon period.  But it won't last because whatever about the salary in pounds and pence, a wage - price spiral will erode it away and leave them back where they started, except potentially with more debt and a lot of frustration. 

To me the answer lies in a fairer tax system.  The large companies should be paying their corporation tax and high private sector earners should be taxed appropriately. 

However, everyone should be paying their taxes and there are many working in the black economy and lots of self-employed, paying only some of the tax they should be paying.  These people may be living very comfortable lifestyles, while their neighbours may be working full time on PAYE and wondering why it is that they are the only one in the neighbourhood who can't afford two holidays in the year and an SUV.  In many cases, people's incomes don't reflect their aspirations (and its good for people to have high aspirations) and that is a problem in today's society.  Keeping up with the Jones' is a bit of an affliction. 

Everyone should be paying their fair share of tax! Those of modest means and the wealthy.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 11:05:29 AM

The bit that no-one is talking about here is what happens to wages in the broader economy, when unskilled workers in McDonalds get a 80% pay rise in 2019.   

Firstly, supervisors and managers in McDonalds, will not tolerate earning less than an unskilled colleague. Management recognise this and maintain existing wage differentials with corresponding pay rises for workers in all parts of the business.  And if I'm on £15 per hour as a manager, and I see unskilled colleagues now getting the same wage, I also want an 80% uplift to maintain the differential that was previously there.  So I'll be looking for an extra £12.40 / hour. 

Then companies in the same sector have to start competing aggressively on wages to ensure that all of their staff don't leave to go to McDonalds.  In a short space of time, the standard hourly wage for unskilled workers in the catering and hospitality sector is £15.

The catering sector will become more attractive for a time, as people working in other low / semi-skilled jobs, decide to move into that sector, meaning that other industry sectors (retail, manufacturing etc) start to up their game.  Wages start to rise across the board. 

Lower-skilled workers on £15/hour start to think about taking out loans and mortgages to get a good car, buy a house.  House prices rise. 

Meanwhile, retailers, foodservice, manufacturers start to increase prices as a result of higher costs, but also due to the fact that there is increased demand in the economy due to the extra spending power. 

Inflation starts to rise quite fast

Bank of England puts up interest rates

Inflation has eroded away the increased wages

Higher interest rates mean that borrowers are now struggling to pay back loans on variable rates

Minimum wage workers are back where they started, only saddled with debt. 

Is anyone better off? Is there anything sustainable about this.

Higher interest rates are guaranteed
So is a property crash
Longer term most people will be better off if the rich are taxed for the benefit of the wider society.

I don't disagree with any of that.  But it doesn't take away from the point that I'm making that this kind of stuff is for the fairies.  There might be immediate gratification for anyone on the min wage getting a 80% pay rise with a short honeymoon period.  But it won't last because whatever about the salary in pounds and pence, a wage - price spiral will erode it away and leave them back where they started, except potentially with more debt and a lot of frustration. 

To me the answer lies in a fairer tax system.  The large companies should be paying their corporation tax and high private sector earners should be taxed appropriately. 

However, everyone should be paying their taxes and there are many working in the black economy and lots of self-employed, paying only some of the tax they should be paying.  These people may be living very comfortable lifestyles, while their neighbours may be working full time on PAYE and wondering why it is that they are the only one in the neighbourhood who can't afford two holidays in the year and an SUV.  In many cases, people's incomes don't reflect their aspirations and that is a problem in today's society.  Keeping up with the Jones' is a bit of an affliction. 

Everyone should be paying their fair share of tax! Those of modest means and the wealthy.
They should but this is much bigger than tax collection.
There is going to be massive change and certain people are going to lose out.
The early 1980s were the same
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: general_lee on November 14, 2019, 12:35:09 PM
If McDonalds raise their wages. What makes you think they’ll start employing more staff?
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyCake on November 14, 2019, 01:25:07 PM
Anyone who can pay less tax, will. Dont the government get enough off ordinary people? There are ways around it, just like there are for big companies. So if they don t pay, why should ordinary folk? Look after yourself, I say.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: trailer on November 14, 2019, 04:00:03 PM
One issue is the amount of tax that the government waste. My tax bill between corporation, employers and my own tax liability is off the scale and then you hear about the sick leave in the civil service or some project that got the go ahead ate up a couple of million and then was abandoned. And yet our public services are an absolute mess.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Maroon Manc on November 14, 2019, 04:56:25 PM
2 million people in the UK employed on the minimum wage, don't know how many of those are on full time hours though.

I assume most will be on some sort of state support such as Universal Credit or tax credits

Hard to know without having more access to figures, I'm assuming that includes a lot of part time workers who don't work the required 30 hours a week or are under 25 which you need to claim. If you work a full 37.5 hours week on minimum wage you'd clear £1200 a month which even in a city like Manchester would allow you to live a decent standard of living albeit not a great one if you're a single person; Obviously for anyone with kids thats a completely different matter.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: seafoid on November 14, 2019, 06:55:55 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1193618506975236096
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: BennyHarp on November 14, 2019, 08:36:39 PM
The full list of candidates standing in the 2019 General Election has been announced. There are 102 candidates, which is down from 109 standing in the 2017 General Election.

The candidates are arranged in alphabetical order, by surname

Belfast East
Naomi Long (Alliance)
Carl McClean (UUP)
Gavin Robinson (DUP)

Belfast North
Nigel Dodds (DUP)
John Finucane (Sinn Féin)
Nuala McAllister (Alliance)

Belfast South
Paula Bradshaw (Alliance)
Claire Hanna (SDLP)
Michael Henderson (UUP)
Emma Little-Pengelly (DUP)
Chris McHugh (Aontú)

Belfast West
Gerry Carroll (People Before Profit)
Monica Digney (Aontú)
Paul Doherty (SDLP)
Donnamarie Higgins (Alliance)
Paul Maskey (Sinn Féin)
Frank McCoubrey (DUP)

East Antrim
Steve Aiken (UUP)
Danny Donnelly (Alliance)
Oliver McMullan (Sinn Féin)
Angela Mulholland (SDLP)
Philip Randle (Green Party)
Aaron Rankin (NI Conservative Party)
Sammy Wilson (DUP)

East Londonderry
Gregory Campbell (DUP)
Richard Holmes (UUP)
Cara Hunter (SDLP)
Chris McCaw (Alliance)
Seán McNicholl (Aontú)
Dermot Nicholl (Sinn Féin)

Fermanagh and South Tyrone
Matthew Beaumont (Alliance)
Tom Elliott (UUP)
Adam Gannon (SDLP)
Michelle Gildernew (Sinn Féin)
Caroline Wheeler (Independent Labour)

Foyle
Colum Eastwood (SDLP)
Rachael Ferguson (Alliance)
Darren Guy (UUP)
Shaun Harkin (People Before Profit)
Elisha McCallion (Sinn Féin)
Anne McCloskey (Aontú)
Gary Middleton (DUP)

Lagan Valley
Robbie Butler (UUP)
Jeffrey Donaldson (DUP)
Sorcha Eastwood (Alliance)
Ally Haydock (SDLP)
Gary Hynds (NI Conservative Party)
Alan Love (UKIP)
Gary McCleave (Sinn Féin)

Mid Ulster
Mel Boyle (Alliance)
Keith Buchanan (DUP)
Denise Johnston (SDLP)
Francie Molloy (Sinn Féin)
Conor Rafferty (Independent)
Neil Richardson (UUP)

Newry and Armagh
Mickey Brady (Sinn Féin)
Pete Byrne (SDLP)
Jackie Coade (Alliance)
William Irvin (DUP)
Martin Kelly (Aontú)
Sam Nicholson (UUP)

North Antrim
Margaret McKillop (SDLP)
Cara McShane (Sinn Féin)
Patricia O'Lynn (Alliance)
Ian Paisley (DUP)
Stephen Palmer (Independent)
Robin Swann (UUP)

North Down
Alan Chambers (UUP)
Alex Easton (DUP)
Stephen Farry (Alliance)
Matthew Robinson (NI Conservative Party)

South Antrim
John Blair (Alliance)
Paul Girvan (DUP)
Declan Kearney (Sinn Féin)
Danny Kinahan (UUP)
Roisin Lynch (SDLP)

South Down
Paul Brady (Aontú)
Patrick Brown (Alliance)
Glyn Hanna (DUP)
Chris Hazzard (Sinn Féin)
Jill McAuley (UUP)
Michael Savage (SDLP)

Strangford
Grant Abraham (NI Conservative Party)
Kellie Armstrong (Alliance)
Joe Boyle (SDLP)
Ryan Carlin (Sinn Féin)
Maurice McCartney (Green Party)
Jim Shannon (DUP)
Philip Geoffrey (UUP)
Robert Stephenson (UKIP)

Upper Bann
Doug Beattie (UUP)
Delores Kelly (SDLP)
Carla Lockhart (DUP)
John O'Dowd (Sinn Féin)
Eóin Tennyson (Alliance)

West Tyrone
Órfhlaith Begley (Sinn Féin)
Thomas Buchanan (DUP)
Stephen Donnelly (Alliance)
Susan Glass (Green Party)
James Hope (Aontú)
Daniel McCrossan (SDLP)
Andy McKane (UUP)
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: screenexile on November 14, 2019, 08:57:52 PM
Foyle and S Belfast to SDLP
N Down to DUP

I think fear is being whipped up all over by Unionists and they’ll come out in droves to secure N and E Belfast to leave the DUP at the same amount of seats and Sinn Fein to lose one in Foyle.

Yeah they’ll lose S Belfast but that was only a bonus from last time they’ll never win it again.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: playwiththewind1st on November 14, 2019, 09:14:31 PM
Aye....DUP win North Down & then they parachute their South Belfast loser back into Stormont, where she will be near her beloved husband.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: armaghniac on November 14, 2019, 09:34:19 PM
Poll, taken before Hermon withdrew. With perhaps one-third of her vote going to Alliance, unionists are only at about 40% in total even if they do turn out. 

Alliance Party    15%
DUP    26%
Green Party    1%
I prefer not to say    0%
None - I plan not to vote/I will spoil my vote    2%
"Other eg Independents, NI Cons, Workers Party etc. "   3%
People Before Profit (PBP)    1%
SDLP    13%
Sinn Fein    22%
Sylvia Hermon - Independent (North Down only)    3%
TUV    1%
Undecided - But plan to vote/Prefer not to say    5%
UUP    8%
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: yellowcard on November 14, 2019, 11:29:55 PM
Foyle and S Belfast to SDLP
N Down to DUP

I think fear is being whipped up all over by Unionists and they’ll come out in droves to secure N and E Belfast to leave the DUP at the same amount of seats and Sinn Fein to lose one in Foyle.

Yeah they’ll lose S Belfast but that was only a bonus from last time they’ll never win it again.

Think North Belfast will be really close, too close to call in fact. Dodds started out as favourite but Finucane has played a wily game so far by largely staying out of the green v orange and making it about the DUPs record on Brexit. The DUP in the other hand have beat the Lambeg drum and played to a loyalist base.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: red hander on November 14, 2019, 11:48:57 PM
Aye....DUP win North Down & then they parachute their South Belfast loser back into Stormont, where she will be near her beloved husband.

Doesn't matter, Stormont is finished, and so is the DUP bike. Paisley will have to find somebody else to hang out of in Westminster. Pity Kate Hoey is gone, she'd have been right up his street, the odious crone.
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 15, 2019, 02:00:04 AM
Candidates confirmed for all nordie seats on 12/12. Candidate name in italics is incumbent seeking re-election...

North Belfast

Alliance - Nuala McAllister
DUP - Nigel Dodds
Sinn Fein - John Finucane

East Belfast

Alliance - Naomi Long
DUP - Gavin Robinson
UUP - Carl McClean

South Belfast

Alliance - Paula Bradshaw
Aontú - Chris McHugh
DUP - Emma Little-Pengelly
SDLP - Claire Hanna
UUP - Michael Henderson

West Belfast

Alliance - Donnamarie Higgins
Aontú - Monica Digney
DUP - Frank McCoubrey
PBP - Gerry Carroll
SDLP - Paul Doherty
Sinn Fein - Paul Maskey

East Antrim

Alliance - Danny Donnelly
Conservatives (NI) - Aaron Rankin
DUP - Sammy Wilson
Greens (NI) - Philip Randle
SDLP - Angela Mulhollan
Sinn Fein - Oliver McMullan
UUP - Steve Aiken

East Derry

Alliance - Chris McCaw
Aontú - Sean McNicholl
DUP - Gregory Campbell
SDLP - Cara Hunter
Sinn Fein - Dermot Nicholl
UUP - Richard Holmes

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

Alliance - Matthew Beaumont
SDLP - Adam Gannon
Sinn Fein - Michelle Gildernew
UUP - Tom Elliott
Independent - Caroline Wheeler

Foyle

Alliance - Rachael Ferguson
Aontú - Anne McCloskey
DUP - Gary Middleton
PBP - Shaun Harkin
SDLP - Colum Eastwood
Sinn Fein - Elisha McCallion
UUP - Darren Guy

Lagan Valley

Alliance - Sorcha Eastwood
Conservatives (NI) - Gary Hynds
DUP - Jeffrey Donaldson
SDLP - Ally Haydock
Sinn Fein - Gary McCleave
UKIP - Alan Love
UUP - Robbie Butler

Mid Ulster

Alliance - Mel Boyle
DUP - Keith Buchanan
SDLP - Denise Johnson
Sinn Fein - Francie Molloy
UUP - Neil Richardson
Independent - Conor Rafferty

Newry & Armagh

Alliance - Jackie Coade
Aontú - Martin Kelly
DUP - William Irwin
SDLP - Peter Byrne
Sinn Fein - Mickey Brady
UUP - Sam Nicholson

North Antrim

Alliance - Patricia O'Lynn
DUP - Ian Paisley
SDLP - Margaret Anne McKillop
Sinn Fein - Cara McShane
UUP - Robin Swann
Independent - Stephen Palmer

North Down

Alliance - Stephen Farry
Conservatives (NI) - Matthew Robinson
DUP - Alex Easton
UUP - Alan Chambers

South Antrim

Alliance - John Blair
DUP - Paul Girvan
SDLP - Roisin Lynch
Sinn Fein - Declan Kearney
UUP - Danny Kinahan

South Down

Alliance - Patrick Brown
Aontú - Paul Brady
DUP - Glyn Hanna
SDLP - Michael Savage
Sinn Fein - Chris Hazzard
UUP - Jill Macauley

Strangford

Alliance - Kellie Armstrong
Conservatives (NI) - Grant Abraham
DUP - Jim Shannon
Greens (NI) - Martin Macartney
SDLP - Joe Boyle
Sinn Fein - Ryan Carlin
UKIP - Robert Stephenson
UUP - Philip Smith

Upper Bann

Alliance - Eóin Tennyson
DUP - Carla Lockhart
SDLP - Dolores Kelly
Sinn Fein - John O'Dowd
UUP - Doug Beattie

West Tyrone

Alliance - Stephen Donnelly
Aontú - James Hope
DUP - Thomas Buchanan
Greens (NI) - Susan Glass
SDLP - Daniel McCrossan
Sinn Fein - Órfhlaith Begley
UUP - Andy McKane
Title: Re: Westminster Election 12th December 2019
Post by: Fionntamhnach on November 15, 2019, 02:58:01 AM
Latest odds by constituency from Paddy Power, updated from 5th November, correct at time of this post.

* Latest odds are the rightmost published next to party & candidate
* Favourite has their odds listed in bold
* Any previous odds for a party & candidate are in light grey
* Odds for a party & candidate not yet published by PP are simply blanked ( --- ) for now
* Odds given by PP for a party in a constituency where they are not standing a candidate has been scrubbed from this list

North Belfast

Alliance - Nuala McAllister
DUP - Nigel Dodds
Sinn Fein - John Finucane
66/1
4/6 4/5
Eve 5/6

East Belfast

Alliance - Naomi Long
DUP - Gavin Robinson
UUP - Carl McClean
5/4
8/13 4/9
50/1

South Belfast

Alliance - Paula Bradshaw
Aontú - Chris McHugh
DUP - Emma Little-Pengelly
SDLP - Claire Hanna
UUP - Michael Henderson
7/2
---
6/1 5/1
2/9
125/1

West Belfast

Alliance - Donnamarie Higgins
Aontú - Monica Digney
DUP - Frank McCoubrey
PBP - Gerry Carroll
SDLP - Paul Doherty
Sinn Fein - Paul Maskey
100/1
---
100/1
---
100/1
1/200

East Antrim

Alliance - Danny Donnelly
Conservatives (NI) - Aaron Rankin
DUP - Sammy Wilson
Greens (NI) - Philip Randle
SDLP - Angela Mulhollan
Sinn Fein - Oliver McMullan
UUP - Steve Aiken
33/1
100/1
1/200
100/1
66/1
66/1
66/1

East Derry (aka East Londonderry)

Alliance - Chris McCaw
Aontú - Sean McNicholl
DUP - Gregory Campbell
SDLP - Cara Hunter
Sinn Fein - Dermot Nicholl
UUP - Richard Holmes
100/1
---
1/100
66/1
66/1
100/1

Fermanagh & South Tyrone

Alliance - Matthew Beaumont
SDLP - Adam Gannon
Sinn Fein - Michelle Gildernew
UUP - Tom Elliott
Independent - Caroline Wheeler
100/1
100/1
8/15 1/4
11/8 5/2
---

Foyle

Alliance - Rachael Ferguson
Aontú - Anne McCloskey
DUP - Gary Middleton
PBP - Shaun Harkin
SDLP - Colum Eastwood
Sinn Fein - Elisha McCallion
UUP - Darren Guy
100/1
---
100/1
---
4/6 1/4
11/10 5/2
---

Lagan Valley

Alliance - Sorcha Eastwood
Conservatives (NI) - Gary Hynds
DUP - Jeffrey Donaldson
SDLP - Ally Haydock
Sinn Fein - Gary McCleave
UKIP - Alan Love
UUP - Robbie Butler
20/1
100/1
1/200
100/1
100/1
---
100/1 50/1

Mid Ulster

Alliance - Mel Boyle
DUP - Keith Buchanan
SDLP - Denise Johnson
Sinn Fein - Francie Molloy
UUP - Neil Richardson
Independent - Conor Rafferty
100/1
33/1
100/1
1/100
100/1
---

Newry & Armagh

Alliance - Jackie Coade
Aontú - Martin Kelly
DUP - William Irwin
SDLP - Peter Byrne
Sinn Fein - Mickey Brady
UUP - Sam Nicholson
100/1
---
33/1
66/1
1/100
100/1

North Antrim

Alliance - Patricia O'Lynn
DUP - Ian Paisley
SDLP - Margaret Anne McKillop
Sinn Fein - Cara McShane
UUP - Robin Swann
Independent - Stephen Palmer
66/1
1/200
100/1
50/1
50/1 33/1
---

North Down

Alliance - Stephen Farry
Conservatives (NI) - Matthew Robinson
DUP - Alex Easton
UUP - Alan Chambers
9/4
100/1
4/9
7/1

South Antrim

Alliance - John Blair
DUP - Paul Girvan
SDLP - Roisin Lynch
Sinn Fein - Declan Kearney
UUP - Danny Kinahan
3/1 4/1
4/7 4/6
100/1
100/1
13/5 7/4

South Down

Alliance - Patrick Brown
Aontú -