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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM

Title: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: screenexile on October 14, 2019, 03:46:17 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Windmill abu on October 14, 2019, 04:46:47 PM
Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 14, 2019, 05:38:38 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: bennydorano on October 14, 2019, 05:53:43 PM
I've been thinking about post Brexit possibilities and what actually is it that makes you an Irish Citizen - say my kids (or me for that matter) want to live in the EU (Continent) at some point in the future - they all have Irish Passports but have no Irish Social Security / National Insurance number etc... Will Passport only cut it???
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Blowitupref on October 14, 2019, 07:01:57 PM
I always thought Britain was Wales, England, Scotland. Add in Northern Ireland and you have the United Kingdom?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Main Street on October 14, 2019, 11:15:01 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: omaghjoe on October 14, 2019, 11:56:29 PM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Surprisingly I agree with this to an extent...

I've come to view passports and citizenship for what they are, that is a document that entitles you access and protection to the laws of a sovereign state and allows you to enter other sovereign states.
Even tho sovereign states especially European ones frequently project themselves as nation states and equate citizenship to cultural and ethnic identity, it certainly has no right to include or exclude anyone cultural identity, because they are feck all to do your cultural identity, in fact they are really just a parasite of cultural identity that uses it for their own uses.

Bottom line is....an Irish passport doesn't make me feel more or less Irish and a British passport certainly doesn't make me feel British

If something else was desired from the Good Friday agreement it should have been more explicit because the way it is worded means nothing, the Brits prob saw a weak negotiating team on the nationalist side that didn't really fully understand things from a legal viewpoint.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 01:46:01 AM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729)

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Surprisingly I agree with this to an extent...

I've come to view passports and citizenship for what they are, that is a document that entitles you access and protection to the laws of a sovereign state and allows you to enter other sovereign states.
Even tho sovereign states especially European ones frequently project themselves as nation states and equate citizenship to cultural and ethnic identity, it certainly has no right to include or exclude anyone cultural identity, because they are feck all to do your cultural identity, in fact they are really just a parasite of cultural identity that uses it for their own uses.

Bottom line is....an Irish passport doesn't make me feel more or less Irish and a British passport certainly doesn't make me feel British

If something else was desired from the Good Friday agreement it should have been more explicit because the way it is worded means nothing, the Brits prob saw a weak negotiating team on the nationalist side that didn't really fully understand things from a legal viewpoint.

Again, I'd largely concur. The international ways and means of how one is determined to be a citizen, how it can be obtained and how it can be passed on through blood lineage etc. is enormously complex and varies by country and diplomatic recognition. However in today's world there are some basic principles - that nation states are the ultimate arbitrator as to whom they recognise as being one of their citizens, that they have the right to determine how someone legally becomes a citizen of theirs, that those whom hold multiple citizenship don't (in general) be allowed to avail of diplomatic help of another country they're a citizen of if they are already in a country which recognises them as a citizen of theirs, and that other countries don't make demands on how others determine citizenship.

Obligatory "I am not a lawyer" disclaimer.

The De Souza case is reconciling the application of British Citizenship through numerous Acts of Parliament, and the right of persons in Northern Ireland to identify as British, Irish or both. The problem I see here is with the word "identity" - this is largely ambiguous as to its interpretation as anyone can potentially identify themselves as anything they want to be. But identifying as something on its own does not necessarily hold up in law. Had the Good Friday Agreement said "Citizen(ship)" or "Nationality" rather than "Identity" then much less ambiguity would likely result which would have demanded binding legislation.

British Nationality law presently determines whom automatically derives what category of British citizenship via birth. In this sense, anyone qualifying for British citizenship is subject to the same rules in NI as they are in Britain, any other nationality notwithstanding. Emma De Souza says that she is not a British citizen because she has never recognised herself as having a British identity, but as I understand it this holds no legal weight. Again, as an international diplomatic principle one cannot passively renounce a citizenship bestowed on to them, it has to be actively done via due process and most countries will not allow someone to actively renounce their citizenship lest they become stateless (the USA is a notable exception) but as Emma De Souza holds Irish citizenship, that last point is not valid here. Emma herself may not recognise her British citizenship, but the UK does, and under various laws and treaties will only be formally unrecognised by a due process to renounce it.

This is not as uncommon situation as it sounds. For example, if your bloodline goes back to a parent/grandparent etc. whom was born in the USA, it's likely that they consider you to be a citizen of theirs even if you have never stepped foot in the country under the jus sanguinis principle. This has ramifications if you ever intend to visit the USA, as American citizens are supposed to only enter and leave the country with an American passport if they hold dual/multiple citizenship, as well as taxation implications as American citizens have to file tax returns on their worldwide income even if they don't live in the country (AFAIK only Eritrea has a similar law requiring citizens to report their taxable income no matter where in the world they're located, along with the USA). It also comes up in cases for countries which have compulsory military service, whereby those whom are expected to serve can include those whose citizenship was derived by bloodline having been born outside of the country. For example there have been several cases of young men in their later teens and early adult years visiting their parents homeland who have been detained by local authorities even though they don't hold a passport for said country and entered it with a passport of their country of birth. South Korea and Singapore are two notable countries where these incidents occur of such persons being forcibly enlisted as they consider them as being a citizen of theirs. And in those situations, the "home" country is often reluctant to get involved because of the principle of not interfering in a country where a national of theirs holds multiple citizenships and is in the country of one they hold.

Going back closer to home, it's suspected that the UK Home Office has been taking a more recent hard line of the principle of British citizenship as a matter of political expediency regarding immigration and residential status, and that this case is a fall out from it - but I'd guess that changes to British Nationality law to technically allow say someone born in NI not to be automatically deemed a British Citizen at birth would be a political and legal nightmare, especially as Irish citizenship does not in itself be automatically granted at birth for anyone born in NI who would otherwise be automatically granted it were they born in the 26. Instead they have the legal right to such but have to actively claim it by themselves or through their parents/guardians.

I'd say the De Souza's will keep on fighting their case until they either decisively win or they exhaust it. It could go all the way to the ECHR, though if it does it might have wider ramifications than just that concerning the GFA. 
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 07:51:49 AM
The starting part on any form of treaty or statutory interpretation is you give meaning to all words unless to do so would result in an absurdity and that youíve to try and give effect to the intent of the legislature.

The GFA as itís been interpreted conveys no special position under UK law for any Irish citizen yet the position of Irish citizens is particularly catered for and mentioned to the exclusion of all other nationalities in the GFA. That to me makes me feel it was the intention that some form of special status over and above what say Americans or the French born in the UK would have was to be created.

From the way the Belfast agreement is worded I can understand why this decision is as it was. My only argument is that wasnít the intended outcome of at least some of those negotiating the agreement. If not what was the point of specifically including the reference to Irish citizens within the GFA
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 08:00:08 AM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Thatís not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you canít action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Armagh18 on October 15, 2019, 08:05:40 AM
Does this mean that when Britain leaves the EU, Northern Ireland will have to leave as well?
If it does it might cause problems with the border between the North & the South.
Somebody needs to check this out before any hasty decisions are made.
Never thought of that, good point??
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Armagh18 on October 15, 2019, 08:06:37 AM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.
Allegedly youíd lose your right to vote in a border poll then?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: under the bar on October 15, 2019, 08:51:31 AM
Rohhhl 'owt the barrel...
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: screenexile on October 15, 2019, 09:30:23 AM
If you're born in the North you're a Brit... deal with it!!


Quote
People born in Northern Ireland remain British citizens according to the law, even if they identify as Irish, tribunal judges have determined.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50041729

Indeed even if you hold an Irish passport you remain British until you pay a fee and renounce your Britishness. Really makes you question why itís even referenced in the Belfast Agreement as those born in NI purporting to be Irish are in the same position as pretty much any other nationality in the world under British law.
A person born in the 6 counties is automatically a dual national at birth, Irish and British. All the GFA references is identity, that a nordie has the right to identify as Irish only. To identify as Irish only does not mean that the person is not a British national. If Nordies were really serious they would go through the process and give up their British nationality, it would not affect their legal status in NI nor bring into disrepute their dedicated loyalty to the British subvention.

Thatís not what the judgement says though. It says anyone born to a British parent is British. If they acquire Irish citizenship through the laws of Ireland then they become both until such times as they fill out the form and pay the fee to renounce their British citizenship. What does identify as Irish even mean on a practical level if you canít action it. Does the clause really only mean you can think what ever way you want but it has no legal significance?  Do you need a clause for that?

I always thought having a passport for a particular country gave you access to that countries rights?? I have 3 passports and wouldn't be keen on renouncing any of them!
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: red hander on October 15, 2019, 09:59:59 AM
I'd say it's not the end of this yet as regards the courts. As an oul bigoted ballix from Ballymena famously said: Never, Never, Never!!!!!!
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: seafoid on October 15, 2019, 10:12:45 AM
The law with its black and white can never resolve something as nuanced as NI identity. That is the whole point of the GFA.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Rossfan on October 15, 2019, 10:16:21 AM
I'm sure the Brits could amend their Nationality Act to take the GFA clause into account.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 10:24:02 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: tiempo on October 15, 2019, 10:25:10 AM
Britain - Union between England and Wales
Great Britain - Union between England Wales and Scotland
UK - GB & 6 counties
Free State - demilitrised zone for quislings
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2019, 10:30:44 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: marty34 on October 15, 2019, 10:34:04 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect

I think every party on the nationalist side were in 'negotiating'.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Keyser soze on October 15, 2019, 10:50:38 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect

Was it not the SDLP that did the heavy lifting for the GFA on the nationalist side?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: screenexile on October 15, 2019, 11:07:35 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: johnnycool on October 15, 2019, 11:57:17 AM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect

I think every party on the nationalist side were in 'negotiating'.

British diplomacy in a nutshell it seems.

You think they're giving something away but really they're not.

Hence the reason the EU is big into legally binding text and Boris and Co want well meaning documents which means SFA.

If you pay the £380 odd quid to renounce your british citizenship, do you also need some other Government to offer you their citizenship in parallel as you can't be countryless so to speak (unless you are a jihadi bride) ?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: north_antrim_hound on October 15, 2019, 12:10:34 PM
I think if British courts are going to churn out decisions like this and bringing into question the integrity of the GFA then it will speed up a UI referendum, well thatís how I feel about this BS.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 12:14:11 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

Well, there were a few ceasefires before that, so it was leading towards peace. The paramilitaries  and Brits couldnít and didnít want to continue. The game was up. The GFA looked after those in politics connected to the armed struggle, and their cronies. They needed a safety net if they were eventually linked to murders/activity. The GFA guaranteed them that, as did their entry to politics/Stormont.

The De Souza case has shown up the worthlessness of this Irish identity thing in the North. It clearly means nothing. It was a ruse to let people think they are important and their rights/culture etc are being looked after.

The GFA has also help divide this place even more, as people grabbed onto the Irish/British thing, Ulster Scots etc. Itís not as if nationalists woke up after the GFA, and thought... I think Iíll identify myself as Irish now because the GFA said I could.

On the border poll thing too - I donít believe it will ever happen. Itís basically at the Britsí discretion if and when to call for a border poll. If someone or group say, hey Britain itís time for a poll... theyíll just say, nah itís not. Thereís not adequate support for it. Well, how do you know unless you have a poll??? Itíll never happen. Then, if SF call for a border poll at any time, itíll be answered with ďoh here we go again!Ē. And the more they ask for it, the less the Brits will listen and it will have no value in asking for one.

As I said, duped.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 12:21:10 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect

I think every party on the nationalist side were in 'negotiating'.

British diplomacy in a nutshell it seems.

You think they're giving something away but really they're not.

Hence the reason the EU is big into legally binding text and Boris and Co want well meaning documents which means SFA.

If you pay the £380 odd quid to renounce your british citizenship, do you also need some other Government to offer you their citizenship in parallel as you can't be countryless so to speak (unless you are a jihadi bride) ?

If you apply to renounce your British citizenship you either have to have citizenship from another state or must acquire same within 6 months otherwise your application is rescinded.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: seafoid on October 15, 2019, 01:09:31 PM
I think the long term behaviour of the DUP indicates that NI as a political confection  is doomed.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on October 15, 2019, 01:18:11 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Well Jesus SF were in there negotiating so hardly surprising, they would not be  known for their high end intellect

I think every party on the nationalist side were in 'negotiating'.

Aye, but SF watered down the IQ count
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: TheOptimist on October 15, 2019, 01:30:03 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 01:57:18 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

That wording suggests that all born in NI have the right to positively identify as Irish and/or British, but not the right to negatively identify. And again it comes down to "identify". BIB is where De Souza's argument lies in that it should be possible for the application of her husband to settle in NI for her to list herself as Irish. UK Home Office is of the opinion that anyone whom in a British Citizen must prioritise themselves as such in this regard. European Court of Human Rights, here we come, I reckon.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: johnnycool on October 15, 2019, 02:00:41 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: screenexile on October 15, 2019, 02:17:28 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?

No... De Souza is trying to say that she only has Irish Citizenship when this is not the case.

According too the law being born in the North means you're automatically a British citizen until you denounce it!

Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 02:40:11 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 03:03:46 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o

I think thatís exactly the point. The GFA made zero impact on the UKís views regarding those born in Northern Ireland and wishing to identify as Irish. That in turn begs the question if that is the case then why was it included in the GFA in the first place? If we assume that all parties intend to give effect to all parts of the treaties they sign up to (basic rules of statutory interpretation) then to me it would appear that the UK are breach of their international obligations under the GFA as they failed to do anything in domestic law to give effect to what they signed up for.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: omaghjoe on October 15, 2019, 03:26:33 PM
Britain - Union between England and Wales
Great Britain - Union between England Wales and Scotland

UK - GB & 6 counties
Free State - demilitrised zone for quislings

This is typical of the general public's rationale to understand the terminology of the jurisdiction of these islands
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 15, 2019, 05:37:48 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html)

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o

I think thatís exactly the point. The GFA made zero impact on the UKís views regarding those born in Northern Ireland and wishing to identify as Irish. That in turn begs the question if that is the case then why was it included in the GFA in the first place? If we assume that all parties intend to give effect to all parts of the treaties they sign up to (basic rules of statutory interpretation) then to me it would appear that the UK are breach of their international obligations under the GFA as they failed to do anything in domestic law to give effect to what they signed up for.

From the point of view you're presenting, the problem is that to solve that issue is not that simple. As I've already mentioned, most whom are born in NI are automatically granted UK citizenship and like pretty much every such country that does the same, you cannot passively renounce it. If UK nationality law was changed in NI to where being born there no longer granted automatic British citizenship at birth, but gave formal rights when actively applied for as is the case presently regarding Irish citizenship for those born in NI, this leaves us with a situation where most babies in NI are born stateless due to a lack of jus soli. That in itself throws up a fair few potential problems especially if there are questions concerning parentage, a baby born in NI to non-Irish or UK citizens whose parents own citizenship either doesn't allow or restricts jus sanguinis, parents refusing or just not bothering to formally apply for any nationality the child can receive etc. Even then, some born in NI may be entitled to automatic citizenship (though not Irish or British) of a country that doesn't recognise multiple citizenship and that trying to register British citizenship whilst already holding citizenship of another country has additional stringent checks in place that does not apply when citizenship is already granted at birth.

It's also worth remembering that since the GFA came into effect, Ireland itself has changed its rights to acquiring citizenship through jos soli after several incidents came to light of certain women deliberately coming to NI to give birth so their child could acquire an EU citizenship meaning both of them would be far harder to deport out of another EU country, as well as foreign nationals holding no Irish citizenship giving birth in the state and later being able to prevent themselves being deported, referencing a Supreme Court ruling from 1989 that forbade the deporting of a parent of an Irish citizen. This right was originally enshrined in the passing of the 19th amendment to the constitution that was tied to the rights of Irish citizenship stated in the GFA, and was later changed with the 27th amendment. Like it or not, immigration concerns are what drove the 27th amendment to pass after the loopholes of the idealism of the 19th amendment were being taken advantage of.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 15, 2019, 07:41:50 PM
This case reaffirms to me that we were all duped by the GFA.

Yes the last 25 years of peace have really fucked me off!!  ::) ::)

And if the GFA or anything similar to it never existed, Mrs. De Souza would still be regarded as a full British Citizen by the UK anyway, so it's a moot point here. I'm also seeing some historical revision - I don't recall any mention by anyone at wishing to have negative identity legally enshrined back in 1997/98 when discussions were ongoing, or when the agreement was signed, or when it was being put to a referendum to be ratified. Positive identity most certainly, but not negative. But sure, it's easy to blame the Brits or the Shinners etc. of the time.

Just to add, although I'm sure they're well aware of this but if the De Souza's have any children together in future they will automatically acquire US citizenship through their father. Obviously the GFA doesn't come into this, but the US Government will regard them as US citizens even if neither the child or both their parents chose to identify themselves as such. In that sense, they would be legally required to enter or leave the USA with an American passport while as adults they are also subject to US taxation laws etc. as I mentioned earlier. They can renounce it, but it's not that easy (or cheap) to do...

https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html (https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/legal/travel-legal-considerations/us-citizenship/Renunciation-US-Nationality-Abroad.html)

Essentially, you can only give your renunciation in person at a US Embassy or Consulate, signing your renunciation is irrevocable and once confirmed and approved essentially means that to visit the USA in the future, you'll be treated as any other foreigner whom never held US citizenship in the first place - but that does not stop you from (in their eyes) fulfilling your tax, financial or military obligations under US law. Also, there is a fee for renouncing your American citizenship. I don't have a figure for 2019, but the most recent fee I've seen is an eye-watering US$2350! And you thought the fee to renounce British citizenship was bad.  :o

I think thatís exactly the point. The GFA made zero impact on the UKís views regarding those born in Northern Ireland and wishing to identify as Irish. That in turn begs the question if that is the case then why was it included in the GFA in the first place? If we assume that all parties intend to give effect to all parts of the treaties they sign up to (basic rules of statutory interpretation) then to me it would appear that the UK are breach of their international obligations under the GFA as they failed to do anything in domestic law to give effect to what they signed up for.

From the point of view you're presenting, the problem is that to solve that issue is not that simple. As I've already mentioned, most whom are born in NI are automatically granted UK citizenship and like pretty much every such country that does the same, you cannot passively renounce it. If UK nationality law was changed in NI to where being born there no longer granted automatic British citizenship at birth, but gave formal rights when actively applied for as is the case presently regarding Irish citizenship for those born in NI, this leaves us with a situation where most babies in NI are born stateless due to a lack of jus soli. That in itself throws up a fair few potential problems especially if there are questions concerning parentage, a baby born in NI to non-Irish or UK citizens whose parents own citizenship either doesn't allow or restricts jus sanguinis, parents refusing or just not bothering to formally apply for any nationality the child can receive etc. Even then, some born in NI may be entitled to automatic citizenship (though not Irish or British) of a country that doesn't recognise multiple citizenship and that trying to register British citizenship whilst already holding citizenship of another country has additional stringent checks in place that does not apply when citizenship is already granted at birth.

It's also worth remembering that since the GFA came into effect, Ireland itself has changed its rights to acquiring citizenship through jos soli after several incidents came to light of certain women deliberately coming to NI to give birth so their child could acquire an EU citizenship meaning both of them would be far harder to deport out of another EU country, as well as foreign nationals holding no Irish citizenship giving birth in the state and later being able to prevent themselves being deported, referencing a Supreme Court ruling from 1989 that forbade the deporting of a parent of an Irish citizen. This right was originally enshrined in the passing of the 19th amendment to the constitution that was tied to the rights of Irish citizenship stated in the GFA, and was later changed with the 27th amendment. Like it or not, immigration concerns are what drove the 27th amendment to pass after the loopholes of the idealism of the 19th amendment were being taken advantage of.

Iím not in agreement with you here for a few reasons. Firstly what the problem be in simply considering anyone born in NI as both a British and Irish citizen until such time as they confirm their preference?  That gets round the issue of statelessness although as shall be seen below I think thatís a misnomer anyway.

Secondly the example you gave is an interesting one because a person born in NI is not automatically British unless one of their parents is British or is settled in the UK so in your example the child is arguably stateless until they are 10 or their parent becomes settled. So there is already a subset of persons born here who the UK can not and do not know what their citizenship is. So the idea of not knowing what someone is until they assert a citizenship right is not the major issue itís suggested to be.

Thirdly British law provides no extra support for those wishing to establish Irish citizenship and as you have mentioned Irish citizenship is now far harder to get than it was pre GFA partially because of the GFA.

All in all I am failing to see what the impact of the relevant clauses of the GFA are to Britain. I then come back to my original point which is why If there was no point to them are they contained within the GFA. What was the intent of including them?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: BennyCake on October 15, 2019, 07:58:50 PM
Another thing...

If Irish citizenship of those in the north isnít technically recognised, should James McClean not be playing for Norn Iron?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Milltown Row2 on October 15, 2019, 10:04:55 PM
Another thing...

If Irish citizenship of those in the north isnít technically recognised, should James McClean not be playing for Norn Iron?


f**k! If big Cas can be Irish then James should be also  ;)
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 16, 2019, 12:37:53 AM
Iím not in agreement with you here for a few reasons. Firstly what the problem be in simply considering anyone born in NI as both a British and Irish citizen until such time as they confirm their preference?  That gets round the issue of statelessness although as shall be seen below I think thatís a misnomer anyway.

Secondly the example you gave is an interesting one because a person born in NI is not automatically British unless one of their parents is British or is settled in the UK so in your example the child is arguably stateless until they are 10 or their parent becomes settled. So there is already a subset of persons born here who the UK can not and do not know what their citizenship is. So the idea of not knowing what someone is until they assert a citizenship right is not the major issue itís suggested to be.

Thirdly British law provides no extra support for those wishing to establish Irish citizenship and as you have mentioned Irish citizenship is now far harder to get than it was pre GFA partially because of the GFA.

All in all I am failing to see what the impact of the relevant clauses of the GFA are to Britain. I then come back to my original point which is why If there was no point to them are they contained within the GFA. What was the intent of including them?

Okay Dokey. On the first point, this could be achieved but it would require parallel laws to be passed in both Dublin & London to allow for that to happen. It could be largely be based on where some countries do not formally recognise dual citizenship (except in possibly exceptional circumstances), but make temporary exemptions for children born to those whom are entitled to another nations' citizenship, Japan being one example, whereby they allow for recognition for multiple citizenship up to the age of 22 which by that point you are liable to lose Japanese citizenship if you fail to formalise having only Japanese nationality (in the eyes of Japan) having been given one month notice from the government. But this does in turn ask, should such an age limit for ultimate declaration apply here? Would declaring before that age allow for a separate system of renouncing citizenship in either country ensure that there is minimal burden placed on the person whilst also be secure? Would "doing nothing" lead to that person continuing to be identified as a dual national by default? Also, this still wouldn't address those whom either passively renounce or never recognise such citizenship in the first place, as active renouncement would still be required.

Secondly - you're correct that someone born in NI is not automatically given UK citizenship irregardless - I let that slip whereas at other times I've mentioned that "most" born in NI automatically acquire UK citizenship.

On the issue of statelessness, both Ireland and the UK have signed and ratified the UN Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness and this means both countries undertake to give those born in their jurisdictions that would be otherwise stateless, citizenship of their country of birth. Neither country automatically grants this at birth, but either will provide for citizenship either having met residency conditions (i.e. in the UK, resident for the first five years since birth) or at the discretion of the relevant government minister in either state whom would nominally grant such a request after the presentation of relevant evidence. An idea I previously mentioned about most children potentially born in NI de facto stateless shouldn't be taken lightly, as such a position would find a person in a disadvantage where citizenship or nationality is required to be presented - not just for travel outside of the CTA (and even that can be hampered) but also to prove right of legibility concerning employment, education, renting a property, opening a bank account etc. Notable issues on this do occur in countries near enough to home - Estonian and Latvian nationality laws have arisen to problems of ethnic Russians in both countries that are not otherwise entitled to either local (full) citizenship, nor Russian citizenship.

In the other points, it is not as I understand any more difficult now for an NI born person post-2004 whom would be eligible to obtain an Irish passport any more than anyone born in the Republic that is equally eligible would be, and essentially no different in those circumstances from 1998 to 2004. Also, every Post Office in NI that keeps UK passport application forms also keep Irish passport forms as well, and they will forward on applications for either at the respective PO. The one difference is that the UK passport has a validity checking service in place to ensure that everything presented for application is kosher before they forward it on, while it isn't yet provided for Irish passport applications. One thing missing is an Irish passport office either based in NI or in a location closer to it than Dublin (e.g. Monaghan town, Letterkenny), and AFAIK the UK government has no objections to the Irish DFA opening such an office in NI should they wish to.

Everything else is a matter for the courts to decide.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 16, 2019, 05:25:36 AM
Fionntamhnach

I think the point I go back to is, I think it was clearly the intention of the GFA to require of the UK some form of legislative change to domestic UK law to either protect or enhance the rights of those born in NI to claim Irish citizenship (if legally entitled), British citizenship or to have both, certainly something more than anyone who have been entitled to dual citizenship of the UK and another country (not Ireland) would have. I donít believe that what that change was to be is prescribed by the GFA but I do think it is clearly the intention that something should be done to give a practical effect to the wording of the GFA. I further think that we can both agree that nothing has been done domestically. Which in turn means that as the law stands the De Souza decision was correct.

Iím not trying to suggest what that change should be I am just trying to suggest that the GFA imposes an obligation on the UK to do something and that a failure to so do leaves the UK in breach of an international obligation created by the GFA.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 16, 2019, 11:18:26 AM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 16, 2019, 11:38:10 AM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.

I think we are broadly in agreement then. Although I welcome Simon Conveys comments about raising the issue with the UK
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Franko on October 16, 2019, 02:02:19 PM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.

I think we are broadly in agreement then. Although I welcome Simon Conveys comments about raising the issue with the UK

It would seem that one of the chief participants in the negotiations would concur with your thoughts David.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-50067547
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 16, 2019, 06:28:49 PM
Fair 'nuff. My point is that trying to legislate on how to accommodate such aspiration or obligation in the spirit of the GFA throws up potential issues concerning international diplomacy and citizenship beyond Irish-British relations, with the 19th Amendment being an example. At best, successive British governments may have felt that amendments to nationality legislation within the UK wasn't needed to meet the aims mentioned in the GFA. At worst, they were being deliberately or even mendaciously neglegent. Given current political shenanigans in Westminster, it would take a brave MP to try and introduce such measures to remedy this at this time, as I can't see the current government and home secretary doing so.

I think we are broadly in agreement then. Although I welcome Simon Conveys comments about raising the issue with the UK

Speaking solely for myself, it's sad that it's somehow refreshing to have a civil, open & informative discussion on an issue like this where the technical and broader issues are also looked upon.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Main Street on October 17, 2019, 12:48:45 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?
It is puzzling that people thought the GFA changed anything re a NI person's birthright to be a dual citizen. This matter was discussed ad nauseum in the FIFA eligibility thread.
De Souza did not have even have a just legal basis for a challenge. The GFA did not change British or irish nationality law.

It is the Irish constitution (not British nationality law)  which gives most everybody born on the Island the automatic right to Irish  citizenship. It is the British nationality law which endows most everybody born in the 6 counties the right to be a british citizen. It is a legal babtism of British nationality. As long as a NI born resides in the UK,  that person resides as a British citizen by default unless the person resigns their Brit citizenship.  The GFA never attempted to change that basic legal concept of British nationality. I have commented many times that Nordie nationalist are British nationals  by default  and need to rinse themselves of that stain by following a due process. The GFA did not do that rinsing.

 
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: David McKeown on October 18, 2019, 04:56:40 PM
just for clarity, people on here seem to think the GFA stops at saying we can idientofy as British, Irish or both so here is the actual wording

Quote
recognise the birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to
identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they
may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both
British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would
not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland.

So, not only can you identify as Irish you are also entitled to Irish citizenship.

Is that not contrary to the De Souza outcomes yesterday?
It is puzzling that people thought the GFA changed anything re a NI person's birthright to be a dual citizen. This matter was discussed ad nauseum in the FIFA eligibility thread.
De Souza did not have even have a just legal basis for a challenge. The GFA did not change British or irish nationality law.

It is the Irish constitution (not British nationality law)  which gives most everybody born on the Island the automatic right to Irish  citizenship. It is the British nationality law which endows most everybody born in the 6 counties the right to be a british citizen. It is a legal babtism of British nationality. As long as a NI born resides in the UK,  that person resides as a British citizen by default unless the person resigns their Brit citizenship.  The GFA never attempted to change that basic legal concept of British nationality. I have commented many times that Nordie nationalist are British nationals  by default  and need to rinse themselves of that stain by following a due process. The GFA did not do that rinsing.

 

Indeed but it still begs the question what was the intention of it?  It was clearly intended to do something but what that is Iíve no idea.
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Main Street on May 14, 2020, 06:58:15 PM
Good news in that Emma de Souza has won a personal victory in her battle with the Bitish Gov,
https://www.thejournal.ie/emma-de-souza-northern-ireland-irish-british-immigration-5099038-May2020/

that British and Irish citizens born in the North will be treated as EU citizens for certain immigration purposes, meaning that the spouses of these people who are born outside the EU can apply for a residence permit to stay in the UK post-Brexit.
but there is a but.
 these changes are time-limited, from August 24th until the end of the UKís post-Brexit transition period.


Why the time restriction?
 I have said this before that the British nationality act only endows British nationality to NI born at birth.  British nationality is the default nationality at birth even if NI born also happen to be Irish citizens at birth, in effect dual nationals at birth.

From the British perspective, the GFA just recognises a right for a NI born to identify themselves as Irish only, but that personís default nationality is still British.
The GFA  does not say that the British state recognises all NI born to be dual nationals.
The British state is not compelled to uphold the rights that your irish citizenship endows.
as it has to  with your British nationality.

 The Dual nationaity at birth is important riight of course  but as long as a Nordie doesn't spend the GBP 140 to give up their british nationality, their primary de facto nationality in the UK is their British nationality.


In simple terms, a NI born footballers british nationality allows him/her to play for the IFA
The same footballers Irish nationality allows them to play for the FAI.


 
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: BennyCake on May 22, 2020, 07:16:14 PM
So what happens when Brexit is sorted? Does Emma go back to being a Brit?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on May 23, 2020, 01:05:52 AM
She did a media thing with Jim Wells, who during the week said if she wants to be Irish she can move south, and he said

  "There's no point quoting the Belfast Agreement to me, we've never accepted it".

Its 20focking20
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: BennyCake on May 23, 2020, 09:30:22 AM
And if there was a United Ireland in the morning, would Wells be an Irish citizen whether he liked it or not?
Title: Re: You're All British in the North Now!!
Post by: Rossfan on May 23, 2020, 11:48:19 AM
He'd be entitled to be just as he is now.
He's some bigoted c**t though.