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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: APM on October 02, 2018, 04:43:21 PM

Title: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: APM on October 02, 2018, 04:43:21 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/restrictions-on-handpasses-sinbin-gaa-standing-committee-on-playing-rules-proposes-five-changes-for-gaelic-football-37377081.html

Doubtless there will be much complaining by people that would prefer to watch paint dry!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on October 02, 2018, 05:02:49 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/restrictions-on-handpasses-sinbin-gaa-standing-committee-on-playing-rules-proposes-five-changes-for-gaelic-football-37377081.html

Doubtless there will be much complaining by people that would prefer to watch paint dry!

IMO, Proposals 1 & 2 will reward (and encourage) defensive teams/strategies. I don't think they are good proposals at all.

Proposal 3 could be interesting, but again it may encourage teams to double/triple team big attackers to ensure that there are no clean catches in that area. The obvious criticism is that it'll make the game more like aussie rules. But I think this proposal is definitely worth looking at (and in conjunction with proposal 5 it could strongly encourage long fast ball into the forwards)

Proposal 4: I'm not really sure what the sin bin is trying to solve? A fella sin binned for 10 minutes for an incorrect black card offence could be worse than a fella replaced by black card sub? I'm not against the sin bin, but this rule certainly is not going to make the game a better spectacle. (It won't make it any worse either)

Proposal 5: This one definintely is worth looking at. It could open up the game a little bit but I'm not sure that 'forcing' goalkeepers to kick the 45 is a)fair or b) required. If teams are required to set up zonally then the kickouts will become lower risk to be kicked long. But this type of rule is certainly worth trialling.

Just my opinions lads!  ;)

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: APM on October 02, 2018, 05:08:02 PM
I could do a big long post, but haven't time.  Sin Bin was a great invention and should have been implemented years ago were it not for a few managers who threw the toys out of the pram.  Black card is a toothless penalty - particularly in the last five minutes of a tight game. 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trileacman on October 02, 2018, 05:11:50 PM
I could do a big long post, but haven't time.  Sin Bin was a great invention and should have been implemented years ago were it not for a few managers who threw the toys out of the pram.  Black card is a toothless penalty - particularly in the last five minutes of a tight game.

To be fair a sin bin will still be a toothless penalty in the last 5 mins of a game too. If your gonna savecthe team from losing it’ll be a very if deterrent that puts you off.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 02, 2018, 05:16:37 PM
Not convinced on the sin bin.
Who'll keep the times in a low level club League  match where the Ref is the only neutral?
More restrictions on hand throwing the better.
Will it be possible to kick the ball past the 45 if you're facing a strong gale or are u 14 or in Salthill?
As well as sidelines all place kicks should have to go forward I think.
The forward mark....have to think about that one.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on October 02, 2018, 05:23:07 PM
So they've introduced a 5 yard kick pass or if needs be kick it back 30 yards to hold possession. Just put your quickest player in mf for kickout and let him run on to it. If steps rule was enforced and 2 man tackle outlawed most problems in game would be addressed.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2018, 05:29:42 PM
The kick-out one is interesting. On the one hand you could have masses of players sitting just inside the 45s, then rushing towards the area where the ball is headed on the kick-outs. However, with a hard, relatively low kick, the keeper should be able to pick out a midfielder before the cavalry arrives. Get a mark and then get it into the forward quickly.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: APM on October 02, 2018, 05:49:34 PM
I could do a big long post, but haven't time.  Sin Bin was a great invention and should have been implemented years ago were it not for a few managers who threw the toys out of the pram.  Black card is a toothless penalty - particularly in the last five minutes of a tight game.

To be fair a sin bin will still be a toothless penalty in the last 5 mins of a game too. If your gonna savecthe team from losing it’ll be a very if deterrent that puts you off.

Take last years AIF, when David Clarke was kicking out the ball and players were being fouled left right and centre.  Black cards should have been issued.  Think about the same scenario now with a Sin Bin and team down to 14 men and a spare man knocking about for the kickout.  Same with someone taking one for the team in the last 5 minutes.  Playing out the last 5 minutes of a tight game with a man down is a major deterrent.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: magpie seanie on October 02, 2018, 05:52:14 PM
I've always been an advocate of implementing the current rules as being the starting point. As another poster mentioned the enforcement of the 4 step rule would eliminate a lot of problems and I'd add the handpass to that. Lads getting away with breaking that rule repeatedly too.

Proposal 1 - Difficult to know how this will work out. Possibly a little too conservative and hard to referee. Should maybe have gone for 2 or 1. Right idea though. Some seriously poor kickers of the O'Neill size 5 with multiple All Ireland medals.

Proposal 2 - A good idea and should actually be applied to all set plays.

Proposal 3 - Like this idea. The fascination with keeping possession might mitigate against it (can't understand why more teams don't actively exploit the new square ball rule for example) but it could work quite well. A lot of intercounty full backs will struggle here if good fielders are deployed in the scoring zone. 

Proposal 4 - seems sensible enough though now having to get 3 yellow cards might encourage more cynicism or card happy officials.

Proposal 5 - I see problems with it and to be honest after reading it several times don't fully understand it. Probably needs to be refined a little....should be quite easy for kicking team to retain possession on their own kickout.

The spirit of the proposals is good but I'd fear for refs....makes a tough job harder. Anything that makes it harder for a team to "control" the game like happens nowadays is to be welcomed though.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: delgany on October 02, 2018, 06:04:05 PM
How will these proposals impact on underage  for example
On a really windy day , could have an underage team conceding possession/ 45 frees   for an entire half ?
Can club referees keep hand pass count going ?

 

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on October 02, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
Corofin scored the goal of the year. A really quick move. 11 handpasses.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 02, 2018, 06:12:37 PM
Proposal 5 looks like bait that was included solely to fail at the consultation stage, so that some of the other proposals get through.

Dirty players everywhere will be delighted with the Sin Bin rule. Reducing the punishment for an individual who breaks the rules is definitely going to improve the game as a spectacle. >:(

There seems to be nothing much here in terms of discouraging defensive cynical play.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 02, 2018, 06:15:34 PM
How will these proposals impact on underage  for example
On a really windy day , could have an underage team conceding possession/ 45 frees   for an entire half ?
Can club referees keep hand pass count going ?

Not just underage - lots of clubs have pitches near the coast.
Winning the coin toss on a windy day could give a side a major advantage.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2018, 06:31:48 PM
Was proposal 5 not something that Brolly dreamed up a couple of years then never mentioned after it failed in a couple of trial games.
If the space between the 45's is empty bar 4 midfielders the game will become a series of uncontested kicks to the chest of a man running to the wings.  Keepers wont  need to be as accurate as Cluxton as they will have a larger clear area to pop the ball in to. Taken in conjunction with proposal 3 it means the traditional high fielders will be positioned on the edge of the square to recveive the pass from the mobile mid-fielder.

No issues with proposals 2 or 4 but fail to see what option 1 would add to the game.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on October 02, 2018, 06:34:36 PM
We could just add two more posts each end and an oval ball. Nearly there.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on October 02, 2018, 06:49:51 PM
How will these proposals impact on underage  for example
On a really windy day , could have an underage team conceding possession/ 45 frees   for an entire half ?
Can club referees keep hand pass count going ?

Not just underage - lots of clubs have pitches near the coast.
Winning the coin toss on a windy day could give a side a major advantage.
Rory Beggan would struggle to get the ball past the 45 meter line on a wet windy day in Connemara.

https://twitter.com/DrunkFootbaIIer/status/1034856259680436224
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Stall the Bailer on October 02, 2018, 07:40:19 PM
I think all kickouts should be taken on the 20m line. It would encourage the keepers to go long and be easier to implement, than some of the other suggestions. All players would need to be outside the D to be 13m from the ball.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 02, 2018, 07:48:27 PM
LGFA has been using the sin bin for years. Seems to work for them and it doesn't seem to be controversial.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 02, 2018, 07:53:02 PM
Quote
The Penalty on the day for a Black Card Infraction or two Yellow Card Infractions - an ordering off for ten minutes in a Sin Bin.

A subsequent Black Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Black Card followed by a Red Card.

A subsequent Yellow Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Yellow Card followed by a Red Card.

So if you get two yellow cards, do you get the sin bin or a red card?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on October 02, 2018, 07:59:07 PM
It seems to be 2 yellows = sin bin
A third yellow = red card

Isnt the problem with the black card the interpretation by referees of what is a black card offence? I dont see how changing the punishment for the same offences will change things?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 02, 2018, 08:16:56 PM
How will these proposals impact on underage  for example
On a really windy day , could have an underage team conceding possession/ 45 frees   for an entire half ?
Can club referees keep hand pass count going ?

Not just underage - lots of clubs have pitches near the coast.
Winning the coin toss on a windy day could give a side a major advantage.
Rory Beggan would struggle to get the ball past the 45 meter line on a wet windy day in Connemara.

https://twitter.com/DrunkFootbaIIer/status/1034856259680436224

I believe that is Eanna O'Connor back around Dromid/St. Finian's Bay in South Kerry during Storm Eleanor. 

Son of Jack and Kildare panel member.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on October 02, 2018, 08:42:55 PM
My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive




Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on October 02, 2018, 08:48:11 PM
1, happy enough to try it but quick handpassing is what creates a lot of goals, it's the ponderous handpassing that kills you

2, not sure it'll have a huge impact but can't see any negative from it

3, iffy enough about this but willing to give it a try. I'm not sure what "problem" it's trying to solve

4, would prefer a sin bin to just replace the black card instead of adding complexity to it

5, not a huge fan of this. Again, not sure what problem it's aimed at

One thing I'd like to see trialled is moving to 13 a side
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trileacman on October 02, 2018, 09:30:11 PM
I’d be very wary of any committee that delegates a forward kick pass from a sideline as a major improvement for the game. Backward kick passes from frees are much more unsightly and common in the game than the rather benign effect of a sideline ball being recycled backwards. I cant really understand the need to include it unless they consider full approval of their suggestions unlikely and this is a piecemeal proposal they view as likely to get passed. Added to the fact that a 22m sideline ball will pretty much a lost cause to most attacking teams unless they’ve Bomber Liston to aim at.

Most of all what really vexes me about these proposal is that referees who lost the ability in the last 5 years to count steps are all of a sudden entrusted with counting hand passes. Why the steps rules is so consistently overlooked is something I simply don’t understand. I don’t think the handpass rule is significant enough to counteract slow buildup play and the amount of it that it will negate will likely be equal to the emergence of a new blight, the farcical 3m kickpass.

The sin bin rule looks like an EU directive, ridiculously overcomplicated. If the black card rule was such a success why the need to change it? Again I’d be in favour of a sin bin rule but 10mins is far too long for me and simply a timeframe uprooted from rugby. Sinbinning needs to be a shorter time to make it more palatable and hence it could be much more commonly dished out to players. The problem with black cards is the penalty is so grievous that refs avoid handing them out.

I like the 45m rule, I think it’ll work great but be warned it’ll really hand advantage to the big conditioned teams. Kildare, Mayo, Dublin, Donegal will probably benefit hugely from it. Laois, Carlow, Fermanagh and the other underdogs will be fucked.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on October 02, 2018, 10:29:26 PM
I'm stuck for words on some of these. Kick the sideline ball backwards? Really?

As tippabu said, teams handpass the ball generally because the other team are hard to break down. What do we think is going to happen after the third hand pass in most situations? Kick pass back and start again. And as someone else said, some fantastic scores will be stopped if a player on the run has to kick it rather than lay off a hand pass.

The less said about Brolly's one the better. This would completely change the outlook of the game and they can't seriously believe it'll be voted in.

I'd be happy enough with the sin bin as a direct replacement for the black card. I'm not a fan of the mark in the forwards but I think it's actually the second best of this lot.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on October 02, 2018, 11:27:55 PM
Five changes are too many to make at once.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Mayo4Sam on October 03, 2018, 12:14:38 AM
1. Hand passing is a way to break through a blanket defence, prob the only, taking it out would literally ruin the game.
2. A nonsense rule
3. Great idea, if you can hit the man ur almost guaranteed a point. If they double team u there’s space elsewhere.
4. I like it but the prob with the black card is the reffing of it
5. Have any of these people ever played football? That’s 1/3 of the pitch to four players!! What happens if u attack from corner back do you have to wait at the 45 like ur waiting for a train before you can run back? Unenforceable nonsense
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: omaghjoe on October 03, 2018, 04:11:02 AM
1. Limiting handpasses is a bad idea. Hands the advantage to the defenders. They can stand off until it's time to kick and then they'll go for that man.

2. Pointless but let them work away if it makes them happy.

3. Might be interesting.....

4. Yawn... get consistent application of current rules first....but try it out

5. What's the goal of this exactly? Needs a massive amount of fleshing out but I think its just gonna favour the big teams... but perhaps not. Theres gonna be a lot of space out there so The defending team should have a lot of options for winning the ball. But the devil is in the detail. For example when can the defending team cross the 45 is when the ball is kicked?

All going to be very hard to police also. And obviously only suitable for adult matches.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on October 03, 2018, 08:03:01 AM

Take last years AIF, when David Clarke was kicking out the ball and players were being fouled left right and centre.  Black cards should have been issued. Think about the same scenario now with a Sin Bin and team down to 14 men and a spare man knocking about for the kickout.  Same with someone taking one for the team in the last 5 minutes.  Playing out the last 5 minutes of a tight game with a man down is a major deterrent.

Wow! It's amazing how so many people (who presumably watched the game?) completely forgot what their own eyes saw and instead, like sheep, have their opinions changed to agree with some loudmouth in the media who hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

The incident you refer to happened deep into injury time. There were 6 minutes of injury time indicated by the ref and Rock took the previous free kick to put Dublin ahead at 76:02. The initial kickout went beyond the 45m where there were 2 Mayo men and 3 Dublin men waiting. The ball broke and one of the 3 Dubs, Cian O'Sullivan, was just about to pick it up when everyone realised the whistle had sounded. Before the whistle went the only two players on the ground were Kilkenny and Keegan. After the whistle went a number of other wrestling matches broke out.

Imagine if the ref had black-carded Ciaran Kilkenny and that Dublin had used all their subs so they were down to 14 men and if Mayo had an extra man knocking about for the kickout. Imagine if the ref ordered a re-take of the kickout. Imagine if the ref had added an additional minute and a half to injury time to deal with the time wasted in showing the card and having the kick re-taken. Imagine what Mayo would do with the extra man and extra minute
and a half to get an equalizer.

Maybe you should re-watch it to see exactly what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxVkVzXci6M
(Rock's freekick at 2:34:30)

The rules were there and implemented, and if Clarke had found a man the narrative would have been how cynicism was duly punished. There was no fouling for the actual final kickout.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: dublin7 on October 03, 2018, 08:32:43 AM

Take last years AIF, when David Clarke was kicking out the ball and players were being fouled left right and centre.  Black cards should have been issued. Think about the same scenario now with a Sin Bin and team down to 14 men and a spare man knocking about for the kickout.  Same with someone taking one for the team in the last 5 minutes.  Playing out the last 5 minutes of a tight game with a man down is a major deterrent.

Wow! It's amazing how so many people (who presumably watched the game?) completely forgot what their own eyes saw and instead, like sheep, have their opinions changed to agree with some loudmouth in the media who hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

The incident you refer to happened deep into injury time. There were 6 minutes of injury time indicated by the ref and Rock took the previous free kick to put Dublin ahead at 76:02. The initial kickout went beyond the 45m where there were 2 Mayo men and 3 Dublin men waiting. The ball broke and one of the 3 Dubs, Cian O'Sullivan, was just about to pick it up when everyone realised the whistle had sounded. Before the whistle went the only two players on the ground were Kilkenny and Keegan. After the whistle went a number of other wrestling matches broke out.

Imagine if the ref had black-carded Ciaran Kilkenny and that Dublin had used all their subs so they were down to 14 men and if Mayo had an extra man knocking about for the kickout. Imagine if the ref ordered a re-take of the kickout. Imagine if the ref had added an additional minute and a half to injury time to deal with the time wasted in showing the card and having the kick re-taken. Imagine what Mayo would do with the extra man and extra minute
and a half to get an equalizer.

Maybe you should re-watch it to see exactly what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxVkVzXci6M
(Rock's freekick at 2:34:30)

The rules were there and implemented, and if Clarke had found a man the narrative would have been how cynicism was duly punished. There was no fouling for the actual final kickout.

Your offering logic and facts to mayo posters. It was all big, bad dublin cheating that cost Mayo

I like the sin bin idea, although if a player gets 2 yellow cards that should still be a red card.

The 3 handpasses idea is a joke. Dublin have shown the way to beat the blanket defence is patience and waiting for your chance.  This rule basically negates this tactic and only encourages the blanket defence.  Some of the best goals have invovled quick handpass

I would have liked a rule that once past your own 45m with possession you cant go back past it. Makes it harder to play keep ball, but still have plenty of space to punish teams when they push up if they are good enough 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tonto1888 on October 03, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
Sideline rule is rand.
Handoass rule is daft
Sin bin might work as might the mark
Not really sure what to say about number 5. I can’t picture it in my head at the momen
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on October 03, 2018, 11:31:20 AM
Sideline rule is rand.
Handoass rule is daft
Sin bin might work as might the mark
Not really sure what to say about number 5. I can’t picture it in my head at the momen

Number 5 could be the old management technique of offering something ridiculous which they know people will object too, so they can push through the changes they want. Number 5 won't see the light of day so the others find their way into the rulebook.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: NotOurYear on October 03, 2018, 12:16:55 PM

I like the proposed rule changes and believe they should be given a chance to operate on a trial basis.
The first question i ask is if the game is in a good place currently and the answer for me is a resounding no. To do nothing would be to accept the way the game is being played now. I don’t ever want to a repeat of some of the games we saw in the summer; Kerry / Galway anyone???? Combating defensive systems and limiting ball retention lie at the heart of the rule changes and this is to be welcomed.

Rule 1: The limit on the hand-pass i can only presume is to promote kick passing. For me kick-passing is the primary skill in the game. Anything that positivity promotes it is to be encouraged. I am in favour of making it harder to engage in that horrible practice of ‘keep ball’ and would favour more contested possessions so this one gets the thumps up from me. A long accurate kick-pass to an inside forward followed by three hand-passes is enough to open a defense when done at pace. I also don’t buy the argument that it will be difficult to referee, it happens in the international rules with no issue and Pat McEneany (former referee chief) believes it would not be difficult to enforce.

Rule 2: Forward Sideline kick. I don’t believe this goes far enough. I would bring this in for all dead ball kicks, they all should have to go forward. I don’t see ball retention as a skill, rather i see it as a blight on the game. I want to see more contests for possession and ensuring a forward kick from restarts will encourage that. I would also limit teams from going back over the attacking 65 if they bring the ball into the attacking zone. Having teams move the ball backwards from the opposition 13m line back to the goalkeeper is depressing-to watch.

Rule 3: The Offensive Mark. What I believe this is trying to combat is the the dreaded blanket defense. Where team place up-to 10 players between the 45 & the 21 in the so called ‘scoring zone’. Attacking teams can’t get through and we have the wonderful vista of keep-ball around mid-field as witnessed in the Derry club game or Kerry / Galway league game in Tralee. With this rule teams can go over the blanket and be rewarded for accurate long kicks (as mentioned the primary skill in the game). So as a defensive team team do you still engage the blanket or do you move it back to cover the mark zone?Imagine the excitement of a long ball kicked into the square with a team down a point? This rule challenges defensive set-ups and will encourage kicking and high fielding so I am for this one as well.

Rule 4: The sin bin. Today yellow cards are handed out too easily. Football is just refereed differently to hurling. Games are no being negatively influenced by referees sending players off for two small yellow card infractions. I see the sin bin as an effort to redress this. However we will have a tick, first yellow card, second yellow card, black card & red card. Too much in my opinion. Keep the tick, yellow card = sin bin, black card = sin bin but must be replaced. Yellow + black or two yellows = red. The black card had no real effect in the closing stages of a game as players were happy to take the card. Now their team is down a man for the remainder of a game. This may lead to 15 vs 13 should two blacks be shown. More difficult for a team to just hang on and when taken in conjunction with the other rules changes should lead to more football being played at the end of games rather than the mess we see now. I believe this is worth a trial.

Rule 5: The kick-out. The most radical proposal and the one that appears designed to eradicate the defensive set-up of teams. So that reason I am in favour of trialing it. Take Tyrone as an example. When the ball is throw-in their two sweepers head to the D. Their forwards drop back to their 65 / 45 bar leaving 1 or 2 inside the opposition half. So in their structure you have 13 players inside their own half. They invite pressure and break at pace to exploit the space at the other side of the pitch. Except nowadays team realise this and play more defensive to mirror the Tyrone set-up leading to crap games (ala Kerry / Donegal 2014). This proposed rule change will make that structure impossible to maintain as it must be reset at every kick-out. The defending Tyrone forward players would need to sprint back to the opposition 45 prior to the kick-out and then back into position again. That is a lot of running for every kick-out. The rule wants players to adopt orthodox positions which may never fully happen again but I believe it could limit the ‘total blanket’ defensive systems that commit 13 to defense. Doing it from kickouts allows the ref to ensure all players are in the correct position. Its will be easy to see if players are in the correct positions as the ball is kicked. Additionally it will finally remove the great scourge of the modern game - the quick kick-out to the corner back....a welcome side effect. The one addendum i would make is for really bad weather, if the ref believes the goalkeeper made a genuine effort to get the ball out then i wouldn’t penalize him.

Overall: I feel the game is broken as it stands, change is needed. We in the GAA are always too quick to say ‘No’ to change. Lets embrace the rules on a trial basis, learn the lessons (good or bad) and then decide if the change should be made permanent. Rugby is a good example, in the mid naughties it was not great viewing; Indeed Argentina got to a world-cup Semi final with the one tactic of Garryowens. World rugby realised that the game needed changing and the altered the laws of the game, particularly around the tackle, to encourage running rugby. Game far more entertaining now as a result. As an association we need to be confident enough to take the positive elements from other field based, invasion games, and incorporate them into our games, it what happened with defensive systems but has just gone a little too far to the dark side. These proposed rule changes redress the balance I feel.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on October 03, 2018, 12:51:53 PM

We in the GAA are always too quick to say ‘No’ to change.

If only.  ::)

We have only recently dumped

the All Ireland Under-21 Championship
the All Ireland Minor Championship
the All Ireland Quarter Finals
September All Irelands
Minors playing adult club football and hurling.
 :-[

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thebackbar1 on October 03, 2018, 01:12:52 PM
Could some one post the list of names of the people on the committee that came up with these suggestions? I understand that some of the committee have never played gaelic football yet are on the committee.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: The Trap on October 03, 2018, 03:04:55 PM
1. Bad idea and the reasons have already been stated by lots on here. If they really want more kick passing just follow the mark rule out of Aussie Rules. Only thing that would work, not saying I want this by the way!
2. Don't think the sideline kick is a problem, it is after all a kick! What if it was a 'flat' pass? There would be some rows at times and needlessly so.
3. Just go to the Aussie mark again if that's what they want. Would also be hard to ref. Was he inside or outside the 45 when kicked? Was he inside or outside the 20 when caught?
4. Agree with someone else, just go with yellow and red and stick with it. Simple for refs and give them proper instruction on way to use them e.g. would we want the Sean Cavanagh to be a red card? My view yes as in the soccer phrase "stopping a goal opportunity by cynical play"
5. too messy. The last tweak to kick out rule was an improvement and kick outs are now one of the most enjoyable part of the game!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: GalwayBayBoy on October 03, 2018, 03:29:10 PM
Carlow manager Turlough O'Brien has told Sky Sports how he is "gobsmacked" by the proposed rule changes to Gaelic football.

The GAA confirmed on Tuesday that there are five rule changes on the table for Gaelic football, with a view for them to be trialed in the 2019 National League.

The confirmation was met with a mixed reaction and O'Brien told Sky Sports of his displeasure at the moves.

"I am gobsmacked by the new rules," he said. "I'm stunned at the number of rules they're putting forward for a start, and that some of them are so unrealistic, I can't understand why they've done it. They're saying, 'you've got to play a certain way, and the way is simple; 1940s, catch and kick, and wear your flat cap'.

"I think the game today, there are issues but none of these are dealing with it. I mean the biggest issue in the game for me is the tackle, and there's no mention of it anywhere. They haven't addressed it. As a result, we end up with all of these controversial black cards."

"We're going to go to sin bins, which I've no problem with. But the sin bin for two yellows now is extraordinary, considering it was a red card offence previous to this, and now you're going to reward these people by letting them back into the game. That seems like an anomaly straight away.

"I think it's restrictive, they want [us] to play a certain way. It's restricting the hand pass, sideline kicks, and this unbelievably bizarre idea to restrict the kick-outs to two vs two in the middle third of the field is just, I just don't know where they're coming from with that. I just don't know."

The Barrowsiders manager suggested that these rule changes are being brought in due to calls from a few vocal figures.

"I think they're responding to the very vocal criticism of a number of analysts, really. That's driving a lot of this in my opinion.

"I just think these are regressive. I think these people (making the rules), they're not involved in coaching the game, they're not involved in playing the game at the moment. And I think they're being influenced by two or three analysts. Every time you pick up a newspaper, there are two or three analysts who are criticising the game of football."

O'Brien went on to argue that the League is not an appropriate platform to trial these rules, given how important it can be to the likes of Carlow.

"I think the fact that they want to trial it in the National Football League is outrageous. We're working very hard to get to Division 3, and now we're going to be subjected to trial rules where players aren't familiar with it, and it could cost you relegation and promotion in the National Football League, the second major competition they have. I think it's mad.

"To treat it like this is going to disrespect the competition. It's going to infuriate. Some teams are going to suffer because these rules are being trialed in this major competition."

"They emailed a survey to be completed by managers and players. So it's important everyone does respond to that and let them know what they think of it."
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2018, 03:44:07 PM
Does that lad ever stop giving out?
Newspaper reports lists the names of the Committee. I suspect "notouryear " is one of them ;)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Dubhaltach on October 03, 2018, 05:50:47 PM

Take last years AIF, when David Clarke was kicking out the ball and players were being fouled left right and centre.  Black cards should have been issued. Think about the same scenario now with a Sin Bin and team down to 14 men and a spare man knocking about for the kickout.  Same with someone taking one for the team in the last 5 minutes.  Playing out the last 5 minutes of a tight game with a man down is a major deterrent.

Wow! It's amazing how so many people (who presumably watched the game?) completely forgot what their own eyes saw and instead, like sheep, have their opinions changed to agree with some loudmouth in the media who hasn't a clue what they're talking about.

The incident you refer to happened deep into injury time. There were 6 minutes of injury time indicated by the ref and Rock took the previous free kick to put Dublin ahead at 76:02. The initial kickout went beyond the 45m where there were 2 Mayo men and 3 Dublin men waiting. The ball broke and one of the 3 Dubs, Cian O'Sullivan, was just about to pick it up when everyone realised the whistle had sounded. Before the whistle went the only two players on the ground were Kilkenny and Keegan. After the whistle went a number of other wrestling matches broke out.

Imagine if the ref had black-carded Ciaran Kilkenny and that Dublin had used all their subs so they were down to 14 men and if Mayo had an extra man knocking about for the kickout. Imagine if the ref ordered a re-take of the kickout. Imagine if the ref had added an additional minute and a half to injury time to deal with the time wasted in showing the card and having the kick re-taken. Imagine what Mayo would do with the extra man and extra minute
and a half to get an equalizer.

Maybe you should re-watch it to see exactly what happened.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxVkVzXci6M
(Rock's freekick at 2:34:30)

The rules were there and implemented, and if Clarke had found a man the narrative would have been how cynicism was duly punished. There was no fouling for the actual final kickout.

You must be ripping the piss there lad. Why on earth would Mayo players go and start a 'wrestling match' when they're a point down with a minute to go in an All-Ireland final? Even the video you posted (which doesn't show all the players) shows Costello and McManamon running straight to there opponents and grabbing them before the kick-out was taken.

I agree with the second bit in bold, the rules were implemented (except for not issuing a couple of more yellows to Dublin forwards which would have been pointless anyway) and they had little negative consequence for Dublin's systematic fouling. Hence, the reason the rules need to be examined, although i'm not sure the current proposal is the answer.

If you seriously believe that Kilkenny's foul on Keegan was the only Dublin foul for that kick-out, you either

A) Weren't at the match
or
B) have fallen seriously hard for the Jim Gavin 'honest team' narrative/ Dubs persecution complex.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on October 03, 2018, 05:57:57 PM
Carlow manager Turlough O'Brien has told Sky Sports how he is "gobsmacked" by the proposed rule changes to Gaelic football.

The GAA confirmed on Tuesday that there are five rule changes on the table for Gaelic football, with a view for them to be trialed in the 2019 National League.

The confirmation was met with a mixed reaction and O'Brien told Sky Sports of his displeasure at the moves.

"I am gobsmacked by the new rules," he said. "I'm stunned at the number of rules they're putting forward for a start, and that some of them are so unrealistic, I can't understand why they've done it. They're saying, 'you've got to play a certain way, and the way is simple; 1940s, catch and kick, and wear your flat cap'.

"I think the game today, there are issues but none of these are dealing with it. I mean the biggest issue in the game for me is the tackle, and there's no mention of it anywhere. They haven't addressed it. As a result, we end up with all of these controversial black cards."

"We're going to go to sin bins, which I've no problem with. But the sin bin for two yellows now is extraordinary, considering it was a red card offence previous to this, and now you're going to reward these people by letting them back into the game. That seems like an anomaly straight away.

"I think it's restrictive, they want [us] to play a certain way. It's restricting the hand pass, sideline kicks, and this unbelievably bizarre idea to restrict the kick-outs to two vs two in the middle third of the field is just, I just don't know where they're coming from with that. I just don't know."

The Barrowsiders manager suggested that these rule changes are being brought in due to calls from a few vocal figures.

"I think they're responding to the very vocal criticism of a number of analysts, really. That's driving a lot of this in my opinion.

"I just think these are regressive. I think these people (making the rules), they're not involved in coaching the game, they're not involved in playing the game at the moment. And I think they're being influenced by two or three analysts. Every time you pick up a newspaper, there are two or three analysts who are criticising the game of football."

O'Brien went on to argue that the League is not an appropriate platform to trial these rules, given how important it can be to the likes of Carlow.

"I think the fact that they want to trial it in the National Football League is outrageous. We're working very hard to get to Division 3, and now we're going to be subjected to trial rules where players aren't familiar with it, and it could cost you relegation and promotion in the National Football League, the second major competition they have. I think it's mad.

"To treat it like this is going to disrespect the competition. It's going to infuriate. Some teams are going to suffer because these rules are being trialed in this major competition."

"They emailed a survey to be completed by managers and players. So it's important everyone does respond to that and let them know what they think of it."
Couldn't have put it any better. Agree 100% with him.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on October 03, 2018, 06:18:34 PM
I’m not sure where any of these rules are going.

Based on our black card experiences, the majority of referees will do what they can to avoid issuing this penalty, and those that do, will feel compelled (whether they mean to or not) to balance the score as quickly as possible.

But that’s the easy one.

——

People who equate handpassing with negative play, in my opinion, don’t understand game management. The blight on our game is not that players handpass, it’s that they will recycle the ball endlessly away from contact. Every team that has applied this strategy with any degree of success repeatedly has used lateral and backward kick passes to change the potential point of contact, therefore elongating the cycle.

——

As for trying to force teams away from possession restarts.

These only became popular when (scoring) kickouts were moved away from the 20m line.

Think about this.

Possession restarts are extraordinary easier to fulfil in your own half; as shorter distances to kick maximises their likelihood of success, plus it’s much more tiring for opponents to close down space when there’s a further 20x90m area to cover.

Before that rule change, every other kickout took place on the 20m line. It took even the most attuned keeper 10-15 seconds to get a ball, move through bodies to the 20m line, place the ball stationary, then strike.

So by the time they arrived, the short kickout was infinitely less likely - players had retreated back to fill gaps - and a mistake was punishable by a clear shot on goal from 25m, with the keeper marooned, and nobody behind him. Which by nature makes a territorial play much more appealing than a possession play.


Keeper distribution has improved tenfold in the intervening years, so a return to the full norm of before is unlikely.

But as a simple to understand, easy to implement rule change that can only help coerce the type of game we all wish to see, to me it’s a no-brainer.

Yet nobody apart from me seems to believe this. Why?




Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 03, 2018, 06:33:07 PM
Could some one post the list of names of the people on the committee that came up with these suggestions? I understand that some of the committee have never played gaelic football yet are on the committee.

Quote
The Standing Committee on Playing Rules is comprised of:

David Hassan (Chair), Tracy Bunyan (Sec), Pat Daly, Seamus Kenny, Brian Cuthbert, Michael Delaney, David Collins, Alex McQuillen, Frank Murphy.

A veritable who's that of football coaching knowledge.



Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on October 03, 2018, 06:44:00 PM
Could some one post the list of names of the people on the committee that came up with these suggestions? I understand that some of the committee have never played gaelic football yet are on the committee.

Quote
The Standing Committee on Playing Rules is comprised of:

David Hassan (Chair), Tracy Bunyan (Sec), Pat Daly, Seamus Kenny, Brian Cuthbert, Michael Delaney, David Collins, Alex McQuillen, Frank Murphy.

A veritable who's that of football coaching knowledge.

Not the Frank Murphy?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Walter White on October 03, 2018, 07:11:36 PM
As with any rule change, I'll have to see these in practice before making a call. I do feel for referees because a few of these just add to their complicated job, but my initial thoughts are:

I like the forward mark. I always thought a high catch should be followed by an advantage so I was supportive of the mark in midfield and now this will hopefully work as well.

I am not a fan of the side line ball rule, as a few have pointed out before, it's not a major issue and can now hinder teams who win a sideline inside their own 21 but outside their own 13.

Agree that the cards system is over complicated. I'm assuming the tick is replaced by the first yellow now i.e. yellows become even more common.

The kickout will not have a major effect imo (at adult level), other than to force a team playing 13 men behind the ball to 'reset'. A good keeper with good wing half backs will still be able to utilise the space for NFL-like kickouts, which I think could be a good skill. A good quick number 5 or 7 could eat up that spare space and make it a spectacle, so I'm remaining positive about that one. I would suggest that any kickouts below Senior/Reserve should be hit from the 21.

Finally, I am not a fan of the hand pass rule. Yes, we see too many hand passes, but I don't like the idea of punishing a team for keeping the ball when it is the obvious thing to do (i.e. up by 2pts and facing a 15man blanket). I also agree that some of the best scores in recent times have come from powerful running and quick hands ripping open defences.

I would prefer to see attacking incentivised instead of punishing teams who don't stupidly go into a packed defence. This is why a "shot clock" wouldn't work. I would prefer to see something that really rewards teams for going forward. One idea I had (and was laughed at before of course) was to give a team who scores the kickout i.e. maintaining possession. Teams don't want to squander possession these days so if we take the negative out of scoring (losing possession), teams can get on a role and keep going and it is for the other team to get a turn over and get their wave of attacks. This change would also force teams to go and get possession instead of waiting for their next kick out.Probably a radical change, but I'd rather see that than punishing smarter teams.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 03, 2018, 07:32:31 PM
My €0.02...

Quote
Handpass

To introduce a restriction of three consecutive passes of the ball with the fist or open hand by players of the team in possession.

The only way this might work is if after the third consecutive handpass, the player in possession wishing to make a further pass could only do so by kicking it in a forward direction travelling at least 20 metres (arbitrary distance). This would likely still give rise to problems to an attacking team that has reclaimed possession deep in their opponents defence that is working the ball out into a scoring position with several quick fist passes, as defenders will know if the third handpass recipient has more limited opportunities to play the ball. Otherwise as already mentioned by a couple of others here, players will simply use short kicks to reset the handpass count - the type of kicks most players should have left behind once they were too old to play at under 12.

Quote
Sideline Kick

That the ball shall be played in a forward direction from the kick.

Exception:

In the case of a side-line kick being taken by an attacking player on or inside the opponents’ 13m line, the ball may be kicked in any direction.

Not really sure what this is being put up for, but I see not much harm giving it a trial with one amendment. Namely in the exception it should be the opponents 20 metre line instead of 13 metre.

Quote
The Mark

To extend the application of the Mark to the clean catching of the ball on or inside the 20m line from a kick delivered on or beyond the 45m line without it touching the ground.

In the case of a Mark being awarded to an attacking player on or inside the 20m line, the free, if availed of, shall be taken from the point on the 20m line directly in line where the Mark is awarded.

In the case of a Mark being awarded to a defending player on or inside the 20m line, the free kick, if availed of, shall be taken from the point where the Mark is awarded.

The application of the Mark in the two areas of it arising (i.e. as in current Rule and in new Proposal) shall be standardised as follows:

* Up to 15 seconds shall be allowed for a free to be taken from a Mark.
* If the Referee determines that the player who makes the Mark has been injured in the process and unable to take the kick, the Referee shall direct the player’s nearest team mate to take the kick.
* A score may be made from a free awarded for a Mark.
* The normal Rules governing free-kicks shall apply (e.g. players being 13m from the ball before it is kicked).

Exception:

A free-kick from a Mark shall be taken from the hand(s) only.

If a player opts to ‘play on’ when awarded a Mark, he may be challenged i.e. provisions (b) (i) and (ii) of the current Mark Rule shall not apply during the experimentation.

I can see what they're trying to achieve here and the idea behind it is a positive one. Definitely worth trialling. The issues surrounding players being double or triple marked can be rebuffed by pointing out the spare player(s) that can mop up potential breaking balls. Two possible side effects are (a) teams having a player in a permanent "moocher" role that spends most of their time between his opponents end line and 20 metre line whose main role is to make marks, and (b) an increase in the number of balls hit in towards the corners away from a more crowded centre for the purpose of making clean marks which are then brought out to the 20 metre line for a clean strike - this would seem to be opposite to the spirit of the idea of rewarding fielding within the area around the goalmouth. There could also be wider issues of an attacker and wherever they should be awarded a mark having caught a ball within the boundary stated (including if the player jumps behind the 20 metre line with his back to goal, but lands in front of it. Nevertheless, worth giving it a go.

Quote
Sin-Bin

The Penalty on the day for a Black Card Infraction or two Yellow Card Infractions - an ordering off for ten minutes in a Sin Bin.

A subsequent Black Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Black Card followed by a Red Card.

A subsequent Yellow Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Yellow Card followed by a Red Card.

In either case there shall be no substitution allowed.

The maximum number of substitutions in normal time to return to five.

The Duties of a Referee and Sideline Official to be amended in accordance with this Proposal.

What kind of shite is this? This is a potential proposal that'll make the teams hatchet man have their eyes light up. The only bit in this that makes sense if reducing the amount of subs down to five. If they want to go for a sin-bin, approach it the same way it's done in womens football - yellow card, hello 10 minutes. Second yellow card? Goodbye! I can't think of any particular reason this can't work in the mens game, and if a referee for an under 14 girls club league game on a Monday evening travelling on their own can cope with the sin-bin timings, I'm sure the refs in the mens game can cope too. At the same time, scrap the black card and integrate the offences for getting one into being yellow carded.

Quote
Kick-Out/Zoning

For a kick-out, two players only from each team shall be positioned between the two 45m lines.

The goalkeeper and a maximum of six players from each team shall be behind the respective 45m lines, until the ball is kicked.

The ball from the kick-out shall travel beyond the 45m line before being played by a player of the defending team.

Other Rules relating to the kick-out to remain unchanged.

Penalties:

(1)  For another player on the team taking a kick-out to play the ball before it has travelled outside the 45m line or has been played by an opposing player.

Penalty:

(i)  Cancel kick-out

(ii)  Throw in the ball on defenders’ 20m line in front of the scoring space.

(2)  For a player to cross a 45m line before the ball is kicked for the kick-out.

(3)  For a player(s) to, in the opinion of the referee, deliberately seek to delay the kick-out by not retreating behind the 45m lines in a timely manner.

Penalty for the above Fouls:

A 45m free off the ground and in front of the scoring space shall be awarded to the opposing team.

(4)  For a player(s) of each team to simultaneously cross the 45m line(s) before the ball is kicked from the kick-out:

Penalty:

A throw-in ball shall be awarded on the centre of the 45m line involved or at the centre of the field (if infringements are made on both 45m lines).

This idea seems to have come up by someone or some group whom have been thinking too hard of issues concerning one level of the game to the neglect of others. Plenty has already been mentioned here from others of the flaws behind this idea from players waiting on the edge of the 45 'till the ball is kicked, that those behind the idea (Tyrone examples here) have never tried to kick a ball out against the wind when any breeze starts picking up in Greencastle, Brocagh, Derrylaughan or even Garvaghy (those wind turbines next door aren't for decoration), not to mention that many under 14 goalkeepers or defenders (and a few even older) might struggle to get their kick out to clear the 45 even on a calm day. Did someone say that Joe B**lly has put this forward in the past? If so then that explains a fúcking lot.

Extra...

When new rule changes are being proposed and then brought on to trial, using the NFL alone is simply not enough. As the trial rules if deemed successful will be likely introduced across the board then they should be trialled at club and underage levels too - for this, give counties and provinces an incentive to be a guinea pig at two adult club level competitions and two youth level competitions per province, e.g. within Ulster have the rules trialled at one club cup competition in a county, one reserve league or championship in another county, one underage competition at under 14 or under 16 in a third county, with the final trial being the Ulster MFL. Get feedback from all levels.

Would have like to have seen a proposal to give a bigger punishment for dissent beyond the 13 metres moved forward, I know the 30 metre proposal was defeated. Personally would have gone for 25/30 metres forward or up to the 45 metre line of the team making the infraction, whatever was closer to the goal.

Also whatever happened to the countdown clock trial? I remember it being passed at congress for trial a few years ago but it was never to my knowledge given an actual go.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 03, 2018, 09:13:54 PM
Carlow manager Turlough O'Brien has told Sky Sports how he is "gobsmacked" by the proposed rule changes to Gaelic football.

The GAA confirmed on Tuesday that there are five rule changes on the table for Gaelic football, with a view for them to be trialed in the 2019 National League.

The confirmation was met with a mixed reaction and O'Brien told Sky Sports of his displeasure at the moves.

"I am gobsmacked by the new rules," he said. "I'm stunned at the number of rules they're putting forward for a start, and that some of them are so unrealistic, I can't understand why they've done it. They're saying, 'you've got to play a certain way, and the way is simple; 1940s, catch and kick, and wear your flat cap'.

"I think the game today, there are issues but none of these are dealing with it. I mean the biggest issue in the game for me is the tackle, and there's no mention of it anywhere. They haven't addressed it. As a result, we end up with all of these controversial black cards."

"We're going to go to sin bins, which I've no problem with. But the sin bin for two yellows now is extraordinary, considering it was a red card offence previous to this, and now you're going to reward these people by letting them back into the game. That seems like an anomaly straight away.

"I think it's restrictive, they want [us] to play a certain way. It's restricting the hand pass, sideline kicks, and this unbelievably bizarre idea to restrict the kick-outs to two vs two in the middle third of the field is just, I just don't know where they're coming from with that. I just don't know."

The Barrowsiders manager suggested that these rule changes are being brought in due to calls from a few vocal figures.

"I think they're responding to the very vocal criticism of a number of analysts, really. That's driving a lot of this in my opinion.

"I just think these are regressive. I think these people (making the rules), they're not involved in coaching the game, they're not involved in playing the game at the moment. And I think they're being influenced by two or three analysts. Every time you pick up a newspaper, there are two or three analysts who are criticising the game of football."

O'Brien went on to argue that the League is not an appropriate platform to trial these rules, given how important it can be to the likes of Carlow.

"I think the fact that they want to trial it in the National Football League is outrageous. We're working very hard to get to Division 3, and now we're going to be subjected to trial rules where players aren't familiar with it, and it could cost you relegation and promotion in the National Football League, the second major competition they have. I think it's mad.

"To treat it like this is going to disrespect the competition. It's going to infuriate. Some teams are going to suffer because these rules are being trialed in this major competition."

"They emailed a survey to be completed by managers and players. So it's important everyone does respond to that and let them know what they think of it."
Couldn't have put it any better. Agree 100% with him.
+1
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 03, 2018, 09:33:37 PM
So everything is grand so??
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trileacman on October 03, 2018, 09:35:50 PM
So everything is grand so??

He gives the tackle as the clear example of where there is a problem.

It's disingenuous and a simple case of playing the man and not the ball by saying he's content with the status quo.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on October 03, 2018, 09:58:50 PM
So everything is grand so??
So any sort of sh1te rule changes are an improvement?
Beware unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cjx on October 03, 2018, 10:05:33 PM
What are the punishments for breaking these new rules? What I saw were bizarre. Kick-out stuff seriously mad

Imagine herding the lads up and down the pitch at U16 or Junior B

Wet night no lines, no flags, no umpires or lines persona Only crowd a bunch of mad parents and 2 hairy gorilla mentors.

Great craic and the match lasting longer than an American football match but no ads with young fellas/girls running up down and off the pitch leaving 4 static freezing in the middle with kick-outs going only 15m in the mud (now what do we do?). All booked better than Throne champo!

That's the way to encourage the 95% ordinary players young and old but sure aren't the rule committee going on RTE to explain it (Are any of them from Throne?)
Media rule KO virtual reality (is there an App for it? Written for Amstrads or Commodore 64s)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Dubhaltach on October 03, 2018, 10:06:40 PM
My €0.02...

Quote
Handpass

To introduce a restriction of three consecutive passes of the ball with the fist or open hand by players of the team in possession.

The only way this might work is if after the third consecutive handpass, the player in possession wishing to make a further pass could only do so by kicking it in a forward direction travelling at least 20 metres (arbitrary distance). This would likely still give rise to problems to an attacking team that has reclaimed possession deep in their opponents defence that is working the ball out into a scoring position with several quick fist passes, as defenders will know if the third handpass recipient has more limited opportunities to play the ball. Otherwise as already mentioned by a couple of others here, players will simply use short kicks to reset the handpass count - the type of kicks most players should have left behind once they were too old to play at under 12.

Quote
Sideline Kick

That the ball shall be played in a forward direction from the kick.

Exception:

In the case of a side-line kick being taken by an attacking player on or inside the opponents’ 13m line, the ball may be kicked in any direction.

Not really sure what this is being put up for, but I see not much harm giving it a trial with one amendment. Namely in the exception it should be the opponents 20 metre line instead of 13 metre.

Quote
The Mark

To extend the application of the Mark to the clean catching of the ball on or inside the 20m line from a kick delivered on or beyond the 45m line without it touching the ground.

In the case of a Mark being awarded to an attacking player on or inside the 20m line, the free, if availed of, shall be taken from the point on the 20m line directly in line where the Mark is awarded.

In the case of a Mark being awarded to a defending player on or inside the 20m line, the free kick, if availed of, shall be taken from the point where the Mark is awarded.

The application of the Mark in the two areas of it arising (i.e. as in current Rule and in new Proposal) shall be standardised as follows:

* Up to 15 seconds shall be allowed for a free to be taken from a Mark.
* If the Referee determines that the player who makes the Mark has been injured in the process and unable to take the kick, the Referee shall direct the player’s nearest team mate to take the kick.
* A score may be made from a free awarded for a Mark.
* The normal Rules governing free-kicks shall apply (e.g. players being 13m from the ball before it is kicked).

Exception:

A free-kick from a Mark shall be taken from the hand(s) only.

If a player opts to ‘play on’ when awarded a Mark, he may be challenged i.e. provisions (b) (i) and (ii) of the current Mark Rule shall not apply during the experimentation.

I can see what they're trying to achieve here and the idea behind it is a positive one. Definitely worth trialling. The issues surrounding players being double or triple marked can be rebuffed by pointing out the spare player(s) that can mop up potential breaking balls. Two possible side effects are (a) teams having a player in a permanent "moocher" role that spends most of their time between his opponents end line and 20 metre line whose main role is to make marks, and (b) an increase in the number of balls hit in towards the corners away from a more crowded centre for the purpose of making clean marks which are then brought out to the 20 metre line for a clean strike - this would seem to be opposite to the spirit of the idea of rewarding fielding within the area around the goalmouth. There could also be wider issues of an attacker and wherever they should be awarded a mark having caught a ball within the boundary stated (including if the player jumps behind the 20 metre line with his back to goal, but lands in front of it. Nevertheless, worth giving it a go.

Quote
Sin-Bin

The Penalty on the day for a Black Card Infraction or two Yellow Card Infractions - an ordering off for ten minutes in a Sin Bin.

A subsequent Black Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Black Card followed by a Red Card.

A subsequent Yellow Card Infraction shall be penalised by the showing of a Yellow Card followed by a Red Card.

In either case there shall be no substitution allowed.

The maximum number of substitutions in normal time to return to five.

The Duties of a Referee and Sideline Official to be amended in accordance with this Proposal.

What kind of shite is this? This is a potential proposal that'll make the teams hatchet man have their eyes light up. The only bit in this that makes sense if reducing the amount of subs down to five. If they want to go for a sin-bin, approach it the same way it's done in womens football - yellow card, hello 10 minutes. Second yellow card? Goodbye! I can't think of any particular reason this can't work in the mens game, and if a referee for an under 14 girls club league game on a Monday evening travelling on their own can cope with the sin-bin timings, I'm sure the refs in the mens game can cope too. At the same time, scrap the black card and integrate the offences for getting one into being yellow carded.

Quote
Kick-Out/Zoning

For a kick-out, two players only from each team shall be positioned between the two 45m lines.

The goalkeeper and a maximum of six players from each team shall be behind the respective 45m lines, until the ball is kicked.

The ball from the kick-out shall travel beyond the 45m line before being played by a player of the defending team.

Other Rules relating to the kick-out to remain unchanged.

Penalties:

(1)  For another player on the team taking a kick-out to play the ball before it has travelled outside the 45m line or has been played by an opposing player.

Penalty:

(i)  Cancel kick-out

(ii)  Throw in the ball on defenders’ 20m line in front of the scoring space.

(2)  For a player to cross a 45m line before the ball is kicked for the kick-out.

(3)  For a player(s) to, in the opinion of the referee, deliberately seek to delay the kick-out by not retreating behind the 45m lines in a timely manner.

Penalty for the above Fouls:

A 45m free off the ground and in front of the scoring space shall be awarded to the opposing team.

(4)  For a player(s) of each team to simultaneously cross the 45m line(s) before the ball is kicked from the kick-out:

Penalty:

A throw-in ball shall be awarded on the centre of the 45m line involved or at the centre of the field (if infringements are made on both 45m lines).

This idea seems to have come up by someone or some group whom have been thinking too hard of issues concerning one level of the game to the neglect of others. Plenty has already been mentioned here from others of the flaws behind this idea from players waiting on the edge of the 45 'till the ball is kicked, that those behind the idea (Tyrone examples here) have never tried to kick a ball out against the wind when any breeze starts picking up in Greencastle, Brocagh, Derrylaughan or even Garvaghy (those wind turbines next door aren't for decoration), not to mention that many under 14 goalkeepers or defenders (and a few even older) might struggle to get their kick out to clear the 45 even on a calm day. Did someone say that Joe B**lly has put this forward in the past? If so then that explains a fúcking lot.

Extra...

When new rule changes are being proposed and then brought on to trial, using the NFL alone is simply not enough. As the trial rules if deemed successful will be likely introduced across the board then they should be trialled at club and underage levels too - for this, give counties and provinces an incentive to be a guinea pig at two adult club level competitions and two youth level competitions per province, e.g. within Ulster have the rules trialled at one club cup competition in a county, one reserve league or championship in another county, one underage competition at under 14 or under 16 in a third county, with the final trial being the Ulster MFL. Get feedback from all levels.

Would have like to have seen a proposal to give a bigger punishment for dissent beyond the 13 metres moved forward, I know the 30 metre proposal was defeated. Personally would have gone for 25/30 metres forward or up to the 45 metre line of the team making the infraction, whatever was closer to the goal.

Also whatever happened to the countdown clock trial? I remember it being passed at congress for trial a few years ago but it was never to my knowledge given an actual go.

It would have meant less replays so the loss in revenue wasn't too appealing for the GAA. In their infinite wisdom, they obviously think the sideline kick is a more pressing matter  ::)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: highorlow on October 04, 2018, 10:19:15 AM
Lets just ban the kick out altogether and re-start the game from a hop ball in midfield.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on October 04, 2018, 11:34:09 AM
I really fear for the future of Gaelic football. Some of the rules being proposed are very scary. The Kickout rule being a particular highlight. Some people who are championing these changes are supposed to be intelligent. There's an excuse for someone with a certain lack proposing ludicrous changes but others really should have a little more cop on. Some very scary ideas out there and some very scary people promoting them.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2018, 11:41:11 AM
Scary!!!!!
Calm down gasún -it's not Putin or Netanyahu building a nuclear plant in the middle of Ireland.
It's only a set of proposals for a ball game for discussion over the next month.
 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: From the Bunker on October 04, 2018, 11:48:49 AM
Gaelic football is going to become like a game of Chess yet!

All pieces (players) in the game can only do certain movements or are restricted by certain rules.

At this rate we not only will be counting steps taken with the ball and hops (which is abused already). We'll be counting Yellow Cards, We'll be counting hand passes, we'll be counting how many players are in a half.

We'll need an Accountant not a Referee to control the game!

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on October 04, 2018, 11:54:07 AM
Netanyahu
::)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: The Trap on October 04, 2018, 11:58:01 AM
HOW ABOUT A COMMITTEE SORTING OUT THE FOLLOWING FIRST:
1. THE FIXTURES PROBLEM AND DISPARITY BETWEEN CLUB AND COUNTY
2. THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS (LACK OF RESPECT FOR OFFICIALS FROM PLAYERS AND COUNTY BOARDS)
3. COUNTY TRAINING TAKING UP TOO MUCH TIME AND TOO MUCH MONEY
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: highorlow on October 04, 2018, 12:29:02 PM
Quote
HOW ABOUT A COMMITTEE SORTING OUT THE FOLLOWING FIRST:
1. THE FIXTURES PROBLEM AND DISPARITY BETWEEN CLUB AND COUNTY
2. THE DISCIPLINARY PROCESS (LACK OF RESPECT FOR OFFICIALS FROM PLAYERS AND COUNTY BOARDS)
3. COUNTY TRAINING TAKING UP TOO MUCH TIME AND TOO MUCH MONEY

GOOD POINTS
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: timmyot501 on October 04, 2018, 12:30:43 PM
The tackle is a major issue in matches at all levels

A forward gets the ball, swamped upon by 3 (or more) defenders, can't get out so free against.  How many times in the same game would the same happen at the other end of the field and it's a free in.  This frustrates players, management and supporters and the thing escalates from there.  I think limiting the number of tacklers to 2 at least gives the forward a chance.  Third man in and its a free in.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sligoman2 on October 04, 2018, 01:03:17 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on October 04, 2018, 03:48:28 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 04, 2018, 05:44:09 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: From the Bunker on October 04, 2018, 05:50:00 PM
Some of the ideas being put on here is like a reading a Monty Python sketch.

Next we'll be introducing Dodge Ball rules!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2018, 05:53:31 PM
Mark out 14 areas of the pitch.
2 opponents must at all times stay in each area.
Ball can only be kicked from one square to another.
Each player to wear a big number on his jersey to correspond to his designated area.
(Better put a  ;D for the Northern bucks.)

Isnt that where we started apart from the 14 marked areas......
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: delgany on October 04, 2018, 06:36:49 PM
D for  donkey ...
F  FOR F S....CATCH A GRIP
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 04, 2018, 06:40:36 PM
The tackle is a major issue in matches at all levels

A forward gets the ball, swamped upon by 3 (or more) defenders, can't get out so free against.  How many times in the same game would the same happen at the other end of the field and it's a free in.  This frustrates players, management and supporters and the thing escalates from there.  I think limiting the number of tacklers to 2 at least gives the forward a chance.  Third man in and its a free in.

I think this is a great idea - it gives more of an advantage to the player in possession and it makes the blanket defence less effective.

Under the current rules, all the defenders have to do to force a turn-over is surround a player and as long as they don't commit a foul, the player in possession will be blown for over-carrying unless they can somehow get a pass away through the gaps - the proposed 3 hand pass rule will make it even easier for defenders/harder for the player in possession as there will be occasions where the player in possession won't have the option of using a hand-pass and will have to try and somehow kick-pass it.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: omaghjoe on October 04, 2018, 06:58:09 PM
The tackle is a major issue in matches at all levels

A forward gets the ball, swamped upon by 3 (or more) defenders, can't get out so free against.  How many times in the same game would the same happen at the other end of the field and it's a free in.  This frustrates players, management and supporters and the thing escalates from there.  I think limiting the number of tacklers to 2 at least gives the forward a chance.  Third man in and its a free in.

I think this is a great idea - it gives more of an advantage to the player in possession and it makes the blanket defence less effective.

Under the current rules, all the defenders have to do to force a turn-over is surround a player and as long as they don't commit a foul, the player in possession will be blown for over-carrying unless they can somehow get a pass away through the gaps - the proposed 3 hand pass rule will make it even easier for defenders/harder for the player in possession as there will be occasions where the player in possession won't have the option of using a hand-pass and will have to try and somehow kick-pass it.

I agree to an extent esp regarding limiting the hand-passes

But how do you limit the number of "tacklers?" Would there be an exclusion zone around a player of a yard or something?

Also what if the possession player moves towards defender should he then get out of the way?

What would happen close to goals? Should it only be applicable outside the D?

All gets very complicated putting officials under pressure but would be worth an experiment to see what happens

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on October 04, 2018, 07:02:29 PM
The idea of four players in own half only creates more work for officials. Reduce teams to 11 a side and you'll have the same numbers back in defence (even if all players are back). Those extra four players will be easy to keep track of by officials, as they'll be on the bench!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 04, 2018, 07:21:11 PM
The idea of four players in own half only creates more work for officials. Reduce teams to 11 a side and you'll have the same numbers back in defence (even if all players are back). Those extra four players will be easy to keep track of by officials, as they'll be on the bench!

11 a side and nobody allowed to handle the ball bar the keeper. Oh and shorten the pitch by 50yards.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: dec on October 04, 2018, 07:29:22 PM
The idea of four players in own half only creates more work for officials. Reduce teams to 11 a side and you'll have the same numbers back in defence (even if all players are back). Those extra four players will be easy to keep track of by officials, as they'll be on the bench!

11 a side and nobody allowed to handle the ball bar the keeper. Oh and shorten the pitch by 50yards.

And get rid of those stupid bits that stick out the top of the goals
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on October 04, 2018, 07:36:59 PM
Aye soccer. Such a predicable reply   ::)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: redzone on October 04, 2018, 07:49:07 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

The more you read it the more funny it is. Talk about being daft. Christ
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on October 04, 2018, 08:26:07 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

The more you read it the more funny it is. Talk about being daft. Christ

Classic Lennyism. He’s the funniest poster on here by a country mile.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 04, 2018, 08:57:04 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

The more you read it the more funny it is. Talk about being daft. Christ

Classic Lennyism. He’s the funniest poster on here by a country mile.

I’ll wait to see what other counties supporters think. I know tyrone fans won’t be happy that they can’t get all 15 players back within 40 yards of their own goals. Having to keep 4 players up the pitch might just liberate tyrone though and make them watchable.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on October 04, 2018, 09:25:55 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

The more you read it the more funny it is. Talk about being daft. Christ

Classic Lennyism. He’s the funniest poster on here by a country mile.

I’ll wait to see what other counties supporters think. I know tyrone fans won’t be happy that they can’t get all 15 players back within 40 yards of their own goals. Having to keep 4 players up the pitch might just liberate tyrone though and make them watchable.

Did you watch Tyrone this year???? Their tactics weren't even close to this. But the same narrative. I'm not from Tyrone.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on October 04, 2018, 09:28:16 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.
It is better than the “only midfielders between the 45s” proposal as it cuts down the space to keep some element of competition at kick outs.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on October 04, 2018, 10:13:33 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Over the Bar on October 05, 2018, 12:13:27 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

Have you been smoking crack cocaine for long then?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 05, 2018, 09:29:35 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: themac_23 on October 05, 2018, 09:42:17 AM
Leave things as they are, look at other sports, take soccer for example in the premier league. Everyone bemoaned that soccer was dying with the likes of Mourinho and his park the bus tactics, few years on and the magic formula now is outscore your opponent with attacking football like Liverpool, City and Chelsea. Even watching West Ham last week thats how they tried to play.

What im saying is, these things go in cycles, we will get back to attacking football and more enjoyable games, every time we dont like something about the game we cant just change the rules to suit a narrative, as others have pointed out, no matter the rules some coach/ manager will find a negative way to stop it and then back to square one. Let it play out and let the game come out the other end for the better
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyboard Warrior on October 05, 2018, 09:49:10 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Or coloured armbands. If you want to switch someone from backs to forwards do a swap on the sideline.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on October 05, 2018, 09:53:53 AM
I'm against all the change but softened the last few days.

Sin bin, I think theirs a better solution but happy to trial it.

Attacking mark, reservations but happy to trial it.

Kick out rule has so many flaws it's unreal, fully against it, same with lifeline which is ridiculous changing something that needs no change.

The 3 hand pass I'd like to see an amendment, 3 hand passes and then you must kick as far as the opposition 45, you can hand pass inside the opposition 45 as much as you want but if you enter the 45 and come back out of it running or passing the next play must be a kick. The only problem where hand passing is at its worst is around midfield and outside the scoring zone, not in attacks where teams are running through a mass defence. I've never heard anyone giving out about good quick hand passing in attempts to scores. For example a hand pass to a centre forward, quick pop pass to half back running at pace, he hand passes it to the full forward and he lays off another hand pass and clear through for a goal....is this sort of play seen as a problem with too many hand passing?

One rule I would love to see trialled at sigerson/preseason competitions is 13 a side, feel it could sort alot of things. Also helps smaller counties with smaller panels because you've a stronger team starting and better players coming off the bench
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on October 05, 2018, 10:11:54 AM
Tippabu: yes, less players is the key. It needs doing. No other change needed. I'd go further and reduce to 11x11.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 10:17:32 AM
And seeing that possession is the problem abolish handling the ball........
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on October 05, 2018, 10:17:45 AM
Tippabu: yes, less players is the key. It needs doing. No other change needed. I'd go further and reduce to 11x11.

11 a side would be too extreme, a game where there's not a glove layed on anyone would be worse than what we have now. It would be some 7s or all star games. 13 I think is perfect to still play an effective defense while still increasing the space for teams attacking
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on October 05, 2018, 10:25:07 AM
Ok so let's try 13. But it's rarely talked of seriously as a rule change. When it's an obvious solution.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on October 05, 2018, 10:27:52 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Crazy. There's a whole host of reasons as to why this won't work (and is a laughable idea). The fact that you can't see any of them is scary.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 05, 2018, 10:31:05 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Crazy. There's a whole host of reasons as to why this won't work (and is a laughable idea). The fact that you can't see any of them is scary.

Go ahead, hit me with a few
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 05, 2018, 04:30:35 PM
The tackle is a major issue in matches at all levels

A forward gets the ball, swamped upon by 3 (or more) defenders, can't get out so free against.  How many times in the same game would the same happen at the other end of the field and it's a free in.  This frustrates players, management and supporters and the thing escalates from there.  I think limiting the number of tacklers to 2 at least gives the forward a chance.  Third man in and its a free in.

I think this is a great idea - it gives more of an advantage to the player in possession and it makes the blanket defence less effective.

Under the current rules, all the defenders have to do to force a turn-over is surround a player and as long as they don't commit a foul, the player in possession will be blown for over-carrying unless they can somehow get a pass away through the gaps - the proposed 3 hand pass rule will make it even easier for defenders/harder for the player in possession as there will be occasions where the player in possession won't have the option of using a hand-pass and will have to try and somehow kick-pass it.

I agree to an extent esp regarding limiting the hand-passes

But how do you limit the number of "tacklers?" Would there be an exclusion zone around a player of a yard or something?

Also what if the possession player moves towards defender should he then get out of the way?

What would happen close to goals? Should it only be applicable outside the D?

All gets very complicated putting officials under pressure but would be worth an experiment to see what happens

The tackle is already defined as
Quote
The tackle is a skill by which one or more players may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play.
A tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. A tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact such as punching, slapping,
arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact allowed is that in the course of
a Fair Charge one player only with at least one foot on the ground , makes a shoulder to shoulder charge on the player in possession.

Basically if more than 2 players are in the act of tackling a player at the same time it's a foul and a free to the player in possession.
I don't think that a player in possession moving towards a defender would have any real influence on this rule - the current rules would still apply i.e charging.
I don't think that any player in possession is going to be able to manage to manufacture a situation where he has more than 2 players tackling him at the same time by simply moving towards an additional defender.

As for what happens near goal, initially I think this would fall under the category of a technical foul as opposed to an aggressive fouls so it would be a free-kick as opposed to a penalty.
If it were seen that defending teams were deliberately triple-tackling near goal to stop goal chances, the punishment could be upgraded to a penalty kick.

I don't really think this would be all that complicated for refs to enforce.

It's not a rule that is going to magically fix all the game's ills but it would be a move in the right direction - currently it's far too easy for sides who are defending to win back possession simply by the act of getting bodies around a player.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on October 05, 2018, 06:12:38 PM
The tackle is already defined as
Quote

    The tackle is a skill by which one or more players may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play.
    A tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. A tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact such as punching, slapping,
    arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact allowed is that in the course of
    a Fair Charge one player only with at least one foot on the ground , makes a shoulder to shoulder charge on the player in possession.


Basically if more than 2 players are in the act of tackling a player at the same time it's a foul and a free to the player in possession.

Twohands, I don't understand how you draw this conclusion from the rule as stated.  15 guys could be tackling the one player, and so long as they only played the ball and no more than one shouldered him, it's no foul, as per the quoted rule.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on October 05, 2018, 07:08:32 PM
The tackle is already defined as
Quote

    The tackle is a skill by which one or more players may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play.
    A tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. A tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact such as punching, slapping,
    arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact allowed is that in the course of
    a Fair Charge one player only with at least one foot on the ground , makes a shoulder to shoulder charge on the player in possession.


Basically if more than 2 players are in the act of tackling a player at the same time it's a foul and a free to the player in possession.

Twohands, I don't understand how you draw this conclusion from the rule as stated.  15 guys could be tackling the one player, and so long as they only played the ball and no more than one shouldered him, it's no foul, as per the quoted rule.

Sorry for the confusion - someone earlier in the thread was talking about adjusting the rules to make it that if more than 2 players were tackling a player it would be a foul.
Then someone else say it would be difficult for refs.
I was saying that I didn't think it would be that hard for the refs if a limit of 2 tackles was brought in. Could/should possibly have made it clearer.

You're quite correct when you say "15 guys could be tackling the one player, and so long as they only played the ball and no more than one shouldered him, it's no foul, as per the quoted rule."
The fact that this is legit under the current rules further strengthens the case for amending the rule.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 05, 2018, 07:25:16 PM
If someone is wandering about with ball in their hands they deserve to be tackled by as many as possible.
When we have less possession and more moving of the ball we'll have a better spectacle.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 05, 2018, 07:53:04 PM
If someone is wandering about with ball in their hands they deserve to be tackled by as many as possible.
When we have less possession and more moving if the ball we'll have a better spectacle.

Enforce the 4 steps rule properly.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on October 06, 2018, 10:10:04 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/they-re-trying-to-put-football-in-a-straitjacket-1.3652949
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 06, 2018, 01:58:15 PM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/managers-cannot-be-allowed-to-scupper-new-rules-package-for-gaelic-football-37389956.html
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: befair on October 07, 2018, 03:03:40 PM
Was at a 13-side minor game last night; brilliant, free-flowing, plenty of space. Might not be reflected in senior game of course, but easier to administer than the various rule-changes proposed. Would also help weaker clubs/counties to compete.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Armagh Cúchulainns on October 08, 2018, 10:23:55 AM
Was at a 13-side minor game last night; brilliant, free-flowing, plenty of space. Might not be reflected in senior game of course, but easier to administer than the various rule-changes proposed. Would also help weaker clubs/counties to compete.

13 aside is the first thing I would be looking at when it comes to a rule change.
Forget this nonsense of counting handpasses and kicking forward from sidelines etc.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on October 08, 2018, 10:47:30 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Crazy. There's a whole host of reasons as to why this won't work (and is a laughable idea). The fact that you can't see any of them is scary.

Go ahead, hit me with a few

So a player with an 'A' on his Jersey is trying to tackle a player who is free to move over the field. He runs past the 45 or whatever line in the field and the player with an 'A' must stop tackling or chasing him? That player then gets a free run? This is your solution? Scary beyond belief.

If you ever get into a position of responsibility for rule changes in the GAA, do let me know, as clearly the lunatics will have taken over. 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on October 08, 2018, 11:09:39 AM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Crazy. There's a whole host of reasons as to why this won't work (and is a laughable idea). The fact that you can't see any of them is scary.

Go ahead, hit me with a few

So a player with an 'A' on his Jersey is trying to tackle a player who is free to move over the field. He runs past the 45 or whatever line in the field and the player with an 'A' must stop tackling or chasing him? That player then gets a free run? This is your solution? Scary beyond belief.

If you ever get into a position of responsibility for rule changes in the GAA, do let me know, as clearly the lunatics will have taken over.

Exactly, the funny thing is I wouldn't be surprised if "those who know best" came up with something similar in their next attempts to revolutionise the game. I see where people are coming from and it would be a much more enjoyable game if players held more to their traditional positions but you just can't put restrictions on players to make them do that.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 08, 2018, 12:01:36 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.
I think you have just summed up just about all that is wrong with the GAA at every level from senior intercounty down to underage football at club level.
The ethos is on winning- full stop.
In a manner of speaking, fans are trying to have their cake and eat it at the same time.
After all. Gaelic foootball is an amatuer game and yet the psychologists, physios, s&c coaches and god knows who else are employed to push players to the limits of their abilities. To hell with their  academic or business careers or their health or general welfare.
We may  talk about players burnout and then tell them we want a win at all costs.
Sure, football at the moment is a pain to watch and I’m sure every player who puts on a jersey at any level would agree with that.
So at the intercounty level, county boards emphasise to  managers that it’s a case of Newbridge or nowhere or feck any idea of entertainment for anyone, just win by fair means or foul. Players are instructed to hold possession at all costs until a chance to score allows them to have a shot.
They know they will be horsed out of it by managers, colleagues and fans if they surrender possession to the other side.
It’s a vicious cycle and I can’t see any way out of it.
No amount of tinkering about with the rules of the game will make much difference as every ma
manager worth his expenses will then go about coming up with ways to circumvent them.
“The more things change, the more the more they stay the same.”
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: lenny on October 08, 2018, 09:12:55 PM
I like the fact that the GAA realizes that change is needed and that they are trying to cut out some of the strategies that have poisoned the game recently.  I am looking forward to see how this works out, feel however they missed 2 more significant proposals namely:

1). No passing the ball back past the half way line when inside opponents half - this is sickening to watch.

2). Limiting the number of defenders in your own half, I have suggested that each team must have a minimum of 4 Players (ex goalies) in both halves of the field at all times...  This would hopefully reduce the blanket defense borefest that many games have become.

This is the first year that I have lost interest in football and it's not because of Dublin's domination, it's because of the lack of entertainment on display - it's win at all costs and more managers have been drinking Hartes "we're not here to entertain the fans" magic elixir.

Something has to be done, sports psychologists, specialized coaches and s&c coaches have produced better athletes which ironically has let to less enjoyment.

This!

I think one rule like this would solve a lot of the other 'problems' in the game. No need for 5 rule changes just one good rule change would solve a lot.

I'm not saying that sligoman's rule is the utopian proposal but it is certainly a better draft proposal than a lot of others.

The difficulty with this type of rule is actually enforcing it (i.e. who is going to be watching to ensure that 4 players staying in the opposing 45 when the game is at the far of the pitch?).

As an alternative, I suggest the following:
At kick-outs, the 6 forwards on both teams must be inside the 45 (i.e. in their respective attacking 45). All other players can go whenever they like.
The punishment would be as follows:
- if the team taking the kick out does not have it's 6 forwards in place then the ball is thrown up on the 20metre line (same punishment as currently in place for the goal-keeper taking too long on a kickout)
- if the team defending the kick out doens't have it's 6 players in place when the kick out is taken, the attacking team get a free from where the ball lands (or can play on if more advantageous).

The Pros:
- Keeper (or at least his team) can still dictate the pace of the kickout (i.e. don't have to wait for 30 players to take up positions)
- Should encourage long kick outs to midfield as the 6 forwards will be pushed up on the defenders (probably)
- Whoever gains possession in midfield will have a max of 8 defenders between them and the goal, which should hopefully encourage fast ball into the forwards
- Relatively straightforward to police as the referee just needs to glance around to check there are 6 guys in opposition 45. It's much easier to police than something similar during open play.

The Cons:
- Could lead to a situation where there are 2/3 players lined up on each 45 to run towards their own defence as soon as the kick out is kicked. I.e. teams might still be willing to give up the kick out to get bodies back to pack the defense. However, a good long kick-out, then a mark and another long kick forward would have the ball into the forwards long before the extra defenders get back.
- Possible issue towards the end of a game where a team is chasing a game and are willing to take a risk by putting extra men forward and leaving the 6 forwards unmarked inside the 45. If the team chasing the game wins possession they would immediately have a 14 V 9 overlap. [I think this is the biggest flaw with the proposal] Whilst this is possible to occur at any time during the game I don't think it would ever happen except when a team is chasing a game in the last couple of minutes because the risk is too great (i.e. leaving 6 forwards unmarked inside your 45).
- it doesn't stop teams from getting 15 men behind the ball during open play [However, I believe it encourages teams to keep players up the field]

I'm sure people will ridicule my proposal but think about it before doing so.

Nobody needs to count the 4 players who need to stay in their own half. Each team has 4 designated forwards who must stay in the attacking half of the pitch and 4 defenders who must stay in the defensive half. Those players have a large F for forward or D for defender on the front and back of the jerseys so the ref can see when they cros the halfway. No counting required and easy to referee at all levels of the game. This would transform the game as no team could have more than 10 outfield players in their own half. The other players can go anywhere on the pitch.

This is proper scary. You think this is a viable idea. Wow.

Yes I do. It opens I the game and means teams can’t put 15 inside their own 45. If it’s the letters on the jersey that people have a problem with it could be just players numbered 2-5 must stay in the defensive half of the pitch and players numbered 12-15 must stay as forwards. Easy to ref at all levels.

Crazy. There's a whole host of reasons as to why this won't work (and is a laughable idea). The fact that you can't see any of them is scary.

Go ahead, hit me with a few

So a player with an 'A' on his Jersey is trying to tackle a player who is free to move over the field. He runs past the 45 or whatever line in the field and the player with an 'A' must stop tackling or chasing him? That player then gets a free run? This is your solution? Scary beyond belief.

If you ever get into a position of responsibility for rule changes in the GAA, do let me know, as clearly the lunatics will have taken over.

That’s your only issue. You’re very easily scared if yo think that’s scary. Both teams have the same number of transition players. If this was brought in the game would go back to how it used to be with players marking each other and not marking in zones in their own 45. The players chosen exclusively as forwards could chase back all the way to halfway but each transition player should have a direct opponent who should be marking him.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on October 10, 2018, 09:28:07 PM
When is the decision on which of these rules will be implemented due to be made?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on October 13, 2018, 12:03:21 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/the-data-behind-the-proposed-rule-changes-in-gaelic-football-1.3660503?mode=amp

Tipp I believe the November CC Meeting.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cjx on October 13, 2018, 09:49:47 PM
If someone is wandering about with ball in their hands they deserve to be tackled by as many as possible.
When we have less possession and more moving of the ball we'll have a better spectacle.
This is crucial
Making the ball available (ie. not held in someone's stomach) is key to a good game. So yes enforce steps/ time of poscession rule but also encourage kicking and don't make short passing so easy or open to throwing. Easy solution ban the handpass so back to closed fistpass (not so reliable or easy to to be accurate) That alone would encourage kicking and with fistpass mistakes make the ball more easily available/ tranferred to other team thus answer issue raised by Clerkin article in Irish Times today. Soccer is boring shite because of tip tapping around and Gaelic Football is getting as bad with the word  'patience' being used to excuse the severely decreasing number possession changes per match. So make it less easy to retain possession via hard enforcement of 4 step rule and ban handpass entirely.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on November 07, 2018, 11:33:38 AM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2018, 11:44:36 AM
They looked at it and have revised it based on difficulties.
Very sensible and decisions to be made on 24th November.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: shawshank on November 07, 2018, 11:55:17 AM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/

I can see it now. The ball has to be kicked beyond the 45, no shorts. I can see 5 of the forwards retreating beyond the 45 to deny space and keep their defence tight etc  :o
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on November 07, 2018, 12:25:43 PM
They looked at it and have revised it based on difficulties.
Very sensible and decisions to be made on 24th November.

Sensible would have been not suggesting the proposal in the first place!

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on November 07, 2018, 12:37:30 PM
They looked at it and have revised it based on difficulties.
Very sensible and decisions to be made on 24th November.

Sensible would have been not suggesting the proposal in the first place!

No stupid is not doing trying anything at all. I think this makes sense now and is worth a try. The hand pass one too I think will be a struggle to players.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 07, 2018, 12:51:29 PM
The four most dangerous words in the English language: "Something must be done!"
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 07, 2018, 01:10:36 PM
Or how about
5 -
"Leave things as they are"
Or 3
"Everything is fine"
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Cunny Funt on November 07, 2018, 01:19:08 PM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/



Could RTE not quote another source than that scummy red top newspaper?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thejuice on November 07, 2018, 01:23:47 PM
How about when you kick the ball over the bar you get as many points as the amount of your own players inside the oppositions 21yard line.  ;)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on November 07, 2018, 02:12:09 PM
How about when you kick the ball over the bar you get as many points as the amount of your own players inside the oppositions 21yard line.  ;)

Well, it's certainly a novel idea!  ;)

Rossfan I never suggested that nothing should be done.

Itchy, I think this amended proposal doesn't make sense at all. Forcing the keeper to kick long will mean that anyone who stands inside the 45 for a kickout is immediatey taken out of the game. With no restriction on where players can stand for the kick out and knowing that the ball will land somewhere between 45-80 metres, all/most of the forwards will drop back into that area to clog up the space. Anytime the ball breaks (which will be more likely to happen now due to the increased number of players in the middle sector), It'll be a real scramble with several players around the ball/man in possession. Is that what people want to see?

Kicking the ball long is what we'd all like to see, but forcing it to happen is silly (Especially without a restriction on where players can be). One of the main reasons forwards stay up the field for kick outs at the moment is to try to cut off the short kick-out. That won't be necessary now, so forwards are unlikely to stay up the field.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on November 07, 2018, 04:52:35 PM
How about when you kick the ball over the bar you get as many points as the amount of your own players inside the oppositions 21yard line.  ;)

Well, it's certainly a novel idea!  ;)

Rossfan I never suggested that nothing should be done.

Itchy, I think this amended proposal doesn't make sense at all. Forcing the keeper to kick long will mean that anyone who stands inside the 45 for a kickout is immediatey taken out of the game. With no restriction on where players can stand for the kick out and knowing that the ball will land somewhere between 45-80 metres, all/most of the forwards will drop back into that area to clog up the space. Anytime the ball breaks (which will be more likely to happen now due to the increased number of players in the middle sector), It'll be a real scramble with several players around the ball/man in possession. Is that what people want to see?

Kicking the ball long is what we'd all like to see, but forcing it to happen is silly (Especially without a restriction on where players can be). One of the main reasons forwards stay up the field for kick outs at the moment is to try to cut off the short kick-out. That won't be necessary now, so forwards are unlikely to stay up the field.

Not everyone wants to see the kickout going long. I like to see teams who have some imagination and worked on a strategy. Football is continuously evolving like my own club who played the goalkeeper as an extra outfielder Sunday when we reduced to 14 in Ulster.
I'd question those coming up with rules if they didn't see problems with this one.
Also they've introduced a five yard kick pass. The sideline going forward actually punishes the team taking it as they have one less player forward as they are taking it.
Having watched my club evolve their style of play this year to become an attacking team was down to coaching and Declan Bonner is right when he said it is the fault of coaches and systems. No club teams in Cavan play defensive and we had the highest attended club football final as a result.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 07, 2018, 07:55:26 PM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/

I can see it now. The ball has to be kicked beyond the 45, no shorts. I can see 5 of the forwards retreating beyond the 45 to deny space and keep their defence tight etc  :o

100% this....why would you leave players inside the 45 if you knew the ball had to travel beyond it
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on November 07, 2018, 09:23:30 PM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/

I can see it now. The ball has to be kicked beyond the 45, no shorts. I can see 5 of the forwards retreating beyond the 45 to deny space and keep their defence tight etc  :o

100% this....why would you leave players inside the 45 if you knew the ball had to travel beyond it

So the rule has gone from having only 4 players between the two 45s for a kickout to a situation where it will probably be something like a minimum of 12 players and could be anything of up to 20 players between the two 45s for kickouts.

You would seriously have to question the intelligence of whoever proposed this.

It will take this committee another few weeks to trial this in games and see that the team who don't have the kickout, pulling 13/14 outside the oppositions 45 to defend/congest the central area as much as possible, before they have to abandon this too.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 07, 2018, 10:38:55 PM
So about a month after announcing proposed rule changes they are already considering changing the proposals!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1107/1009213-gaa-to-scrap-player-limits-in-new-kick-out-rule/

I can see it now. The ball has to be kicked beyond the 45, no shorts. I can see 5 of the forwards retreating beyond the 45 to deny space and keep their defence tight etc  :o

100% this....why would you leave players inside the 45 if you knew the ball had to travel beyond it

So the rule has gone from having only 4 players between the two 45s for a kickout to a situation where it will probably be something like a minimum of 12 players and could be anything of up to 20 players between the two 45s for kickouts.

You would seriously have to question the intelligence of whoever proposed this.

It will take this committee another few weeks to trial this in games and see that the team who don't have the kickout, pulling 13/14 outside the oppositions 45 to defend/congest the central area as much as possible, before they have to abandon this too.

I just dont understand the thought process from the people in charge of these.....they come up with these ideas and its like they say "this will be a positive because....." and pat themselves on the back and say well done...Within 5 mins of the rules coming out i saw what i believed were potentially  massive problems, went through everything already in the thread. Im someone who is in no way heavily involved but I realise that when making any changes to the rules the negatives are every bit as important than the positives and you have to put yourself into the worst possible outcome before deciding on whether to propose something.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cjx on November 08, 2018, 05:54:29 PM
Will this rule still apply at U12?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 09, 2018, 09:59:13 AM
The people who proposed this probably got their ideas from one of the regular threads on here pontificating that we need to "DO SOMETHING".

Most of their proposals have been proposed on here at some stage, and many of them in multple threads.

Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 09, 2018, 10:08:18 AM
The people who proposed this probably got their ideas from one of the regular threads on here pontificating that we need to "DO SOMETHING".

Most of their proposals have been proposed on here at some stage, and many of them in multple threads.

Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?

Too many football moaners in the media, too many people listening to them and too many sheep following.

Whereas in the hurling all you hear is about how great it is.

You have an absolutely dreadful standard in the All Ireland hurling final. 40 feckin wides. Forty! Nobody could even keep count of the number of turnovers through bad passes. Limerick didn't put the ball over the bar for a 30 minute spell in the second half, and still managed to win because Galway were absolute shite, up until taking their fingers out of their holes in injury time.

But all we got was hurling is brilliant. 


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 09, 2018, 10:24:34 AM
The 3 handpass rule and the kickout having to go by the 45 both encourages teams to filter lots of people back.

It's mindboggling, given that what "most people" give out about is caused by the blanket defences. And again, the media seem to ignore all the exciting games and highlight the bad ones.

Personally, I've no problem with teams lining up in whatever manner they want. The ultra defensive systems simply don't work (or very rarely work) when you play a decent team that is playing with brains.

The offensive mark is very interesting. And definitely will be bad for the Dubs given we've no full back and just play corner backs who are good tacklers/defenders without being strong fielders.  Could be a game changer.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 09, 2018, 10:34:39 AM
The people who proposed this probably got their ideas from one of the regular threads on here pontificating that we need to "DO SOMETHING".

Most of their proposals have been proposed on here at some stage, and many of them in multple threads.

Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?

Too many football moaners in the media, too many people listening to them and too many sheep following.

Whereas in the hurling all you hear is about how great it is.

You have an absolutely dreadful standard in the All Ireland hurling final. 40 feckin wides. Forty! Nobody could even keep count of the number of turnovers through bad passes. Limerick didn't put the ball over the bar for a 30 minute spell in the second half, and still managed to win because Galway were absolute shite, up until taking their fingers out of their holes in injury time.

But all we got was hurling is brilliant.

Well said. One of the worst finals in a long time.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2018, 11:53:52 AM


Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?
The AFL are concerned about some aspects of their game especially possession and bunching.
They are looking at some changes too to alleviate these.
The fact that people here and HQ are suggesting changes is a sure indication all is not well with the game at present.

As for the proposed changes I hear some " tidying" of the Sin bin will take place before CC considers the changes.
One change I'd love to see is an end to "throw points" >:(
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 09, 2018, 12:35:46 PM


Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?
The AFL are concerned about some aspects of their game especially possession and bunching.
They are looking at some changes too to alleviate these.
The fact that people here and HQ are suggesting changes is a sure indication all is not well with the game at present.

As for the proposed changes I hear some " tidying" of the Sin bin will take place before CC considers the changes.
One change I'd love to see is an end to "throw points" >:(

To be honest, I don't think it's a case of some people don't want changes, I think it's a case of some of these ideas are stupid and have been thought up by a couple of people down the pub, scribbled on the back of a fag packet and are now within a whisker of being seriously considered.

I'm up for a sensible discussion over a period of time with any changes robustly trialled and tested. Golf for example has undertaken this process and is introducing changes in 2019.
I'm not up for stupid ideas like, numbers of players in certain areas or shot clocks. These are the ideas of people who are confused and have no understanding of field sports or indeed Gaelic football.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sligoman2 on November 09, 2018, 12:41:40 PM
The people who proposed this probably got their ideas from one of the regular threads on here pontificating that we need to "DO SOMETHING".

Most of their proposals have been proposed on here at some stage, and many of them in multple threads.

Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?

Too many football moaners in the media, too many people listening to them and too many sheep following.

Whereas in the hurling all you hear is about how great it is.

You have an absolutely dreadful standard in the All Ireland hurling final. 40 feckin wides. Forty! Nobody could even keep count of the number of turnovers through bad passes. Limerick didn't put the ball over the bar for a 30 minute spell in the second half, and still managed to win because Galway were absolute shite, up until taking their fingers out of their holes in injury time.

But all we got was hurling is brilliant.


When people like me turn off the tv at half time because I can’t watch it anymore then I know there is something wrong.  Football has been overtaken by strategy, analysis and planning.  I understand why managers do this because if you don’t you lose but the sport has become almost unwatchable.  So you can bury your head in the sand and say all is well or you can try to address the issues that are turning people like me away from the game.
I think Kildare v Mayo was the only game I really enjoyed last year..
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2018, 12:49:57 PM
For the first time ever I left the house to attend to other matters 15 minutes into the 2nd half of this years All Ireland.
I seldom watch live games now till into the 2nd half -if they're close I'll watch the remainder.
I've paid in as a neutral to about 3 County games in the last 4 years.
One time I'd go to 4 or 5 in one year.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on November 09, 2018, 01:05:31 PM
The people who proposed this probably got their ideas from one of the regular threads on here pontificating that we need to "DO SOMETHING".

Most of their proposals have been proposed on here at some stage, and many of them in multple threads.

Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?

Too many football moaners in the media, too many people listening to them and too many sheep following.

Whereas in the hurling all you hear is about how great it is.

You have an absolutely dreadful standard in the All Ireland hurling final. 40 feckin wides. Forty! Nobody could even keep count of the number of turnovers through bad passes. Limerick didn't put the ball over the bar for a 30 minute spell in the second half, and still managed to win because Galway were absolute shite, up until taking their fingers out of their holes in injury time.

But all we got was hurling is brilliant.


When people like me turn off the tv at half time because I can’t watch it anymore then I know there is something wrong.  Football has been overtaken by strategy, analysis and planning.  I understand why managers do this because if you don’t you lose but the sport has become almost unwatchable.  So you can bury your head in the sand and say all is well or you can try to address the issues that are turning people like me away from the game.
I think Kildare v Mayo was the only game I really enjoyed last year..

Did you watch any of

Kildare v Galway
Roscommon v Armagh
Monaghan v Kerry
Donegal v Tyrone
Monaghan v Tyrone

As i thought all those games along with Kildare v Mayo was enjoyable games to watch.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 09, 2018, 01:21:21 PM


Is there any other sport that introduces as many rule changes and trials as Gaelic football?
The AFL are concerned about some aspects of their game especially possession and bunching.
They are looking at some changes too to alleviate these.
The fact that people here and HQ are suggesting changes is a sure indication all is not well with the game at present.

As for the proposed changes I hear some " tidying" of the Sin bin will take place before CC considers the changes.
One change I'd love to see is an end to "throw points" >:(

Sure, I know that every sport tweaks its rules, formats etc on an ongoing basis, but for as long as I can remember there has been a constant barrage of tinkering with formats, playing rules etc in GAA. It is a never ending process of change change change and where has it got us??

It appears from the media, and indeed this board, that we are at the to the stage where people are talking about the demise of Gaelic football despite there being an constant stream of changes to playing rules over the past 25+ years.

There is a constant clamour for change ... change this... change that .. change the other... and everyone has an opinion and a suggestion about what needs to be done to make the game perfect. I don't think I have ever seen a poster or pundit who has made a suggestion to amend rules who has given a single line of consideration to the down side of the changes they might propose, everyone only sees the merit in their own proposal. Maybe they need to re examine some of the changes already made which have contributed to the situation we are in now instead of mooting further changes to alleviate problems caused by previously introduced rules.

The latest proposals from this working group could have been formulated by any schoolboy reading this forum for a couple of weeks. And these are the people who are supposed to the Brains Trust of our organisation.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2018, 03:07:08 PM
Jases Keyzer you've some paranoia about change ;D
Anyway anyone with half a brain would want something done about the abomination that is throwball.
That and the non stop possession borefest are the main (interlinked) problems.
We want more contests for possession and the ball in play more.
Will the current proposals give us this though?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 09, 2018, 03:15:37 PM
Jases Keyzer you've some paranoia about change ;D
Anyway anyone with half a brain would want something done about the abomination that is throwball.
That and the non stop possession borefest are the main (interlinked) problems.
We want more contests for possession and the ball in play more.
Will the current proposals give us this though?

Are you out to get me  ;D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on November 09, 2018, 03:43:32 PM
If only there was someone with "half a brain".

Some people like players driving the ball long, one on on battles, high fielding and loads of shooting. Others aren't as put off by a possession-based game as the first group and are happy to let the game evolve. I find myself in the latter group.

The defensive teams are beginning to realise that it's a futile exercise unless they are admitting defeat and want to keep the score down.

I'm not against change but some of these are beyond belief. I thought with time and conversation I'd see the point of some of them, but alas no.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 09, 2018, 04:32:45 PM
The GAA is now a confederation of meddlers, and unfortunately a civil service mentality has now taken a grip at all levels, from clubs to counties to Croke Park. No surprise really that people are getting disillusioned and are walking away.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 09, 2018, 04:51:43 PM
Could that rant be translated to English or Gaeilge le do thoil?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 09, 2018, 05:33:16 PM
Could that rant be translated to English or Gaeilge le do thoil?

Rossie English? No.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 09, 2018, 06:24:45 PM
Ironically the best change they could make would be to tier the Championship. The weaker teams play these keep ball systems in order to frustrate the more talented teams. But that would be too much sense. Better to make players kick the ball and if they don't kick it we'll take the ball off them and let the other team kick it back to them until someone kicks it over the bar.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 13, 2018, 11:23:06 AM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1113/1010564-sin-bin-only-for-black-card-under-rejigged-rules/
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on November 13, 2018, 12:17:55 PM
Thats an improvement
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 13, 2018, 12:31:06 PM
Ironically the best change they could make would be to tier the Championship. The weaker teams play these keep ball systems in order to frustrate the more talented teams. But that would be too much sense. Better to make players kick the ball and if they don't kick it we'll take the ball off them and let the other team kick it back to them until someone kicks it over the bar.

Trailer, as a proponent of Tiering can you think of any negatives that may arise from a tiered championship?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 13, 2018, 12:33:04 PM
Leitrim won't win the All Ireland?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 13, 2018, 01:12:20 PM
Ironically the best change they could make would be to tier the Championship. The weaker teams play these keep ball systems in order to frustrate the more talented teams. But that would be too much sense. Better to make players kick the ball and if they don't kick it we'll take the ball off them and let the other team kick it back to them until someone kicks it over the bar.

Trailer, as a proponent of Tiering can you think of any negatives that may arise from a tiered championship?

I can think of no downside.

Teams get to compete at their level.
Opportunity for more teams to realistically win something.
More competitive, better quality games.
Teams will take the field with a view to beating their opponents rather than an attitude of avoiding a tanking. Resulting in more positive play.
More regular games.
More meaningful games.
If done right, a condensed county season should also come out of an overall fixtures plan that will benefit club and county player alike.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 13, 2018, 01:41:57 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1113/1010564-sin-bin-only-for-black-card-under-rejigged-rules/

So let’s say an influential player like Conor McManus or Michael Murphy gets sin binned. If Rory Beggan takes 5 minutes tying his lace or A Donegal player lies down for 5 minutes, do those wasted 5 minutes count as part of the 10 minutes for the sin binned players?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 13, 2018, 04:11:39 PM
Good question.
I rubby ball the Ref is continually stopping the clock so the full playing time is served but in our more fluid game the opportunities for time wasting are many.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: timmyot501 on November 13, 2018, 05:51:57 PM
How many watches will a referee need in a club game if he black cards more than one player and he has no 4th official to assist??
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 14, 2018, 10:49:28 AM
Ironically the best change they could make would be to tier the Championship. The weaker teams play these keep ball systems in order to frustrate the more talented teams. But that would be too much sense. Better to make players kick the ball and if they don't kick it we'll take the ball off them and let the other team kick it back to them until someone kicks it over the bar.

Trailer, as a proponent of Tiering can you think of any negatives that may arise from a tiered championship?

I can think of no downside.

Teams get to compete at their level.
Opportunity for more teams to realistically win something.
More competitive, better quality games.
Teams will take the field with a view to beating their opponents rather than an attitude of avoiding a tanking. Resulting in more positive play.
More regular games.
More meaningful games.
If done right, a condensed county season should also come out of an overall fixtures plan that will benefit club and county player alike.

In future all threads on this subject, and indeed committees designed to change the rules should be named 'I can think of no downside'.

The above is a great example of something I said in an earlier post. This debate is characterised by great ideas about how to solve all the ills of our sport, usually shamelessly plagiarised from another poster, media outlet, or indeed another sport altogether.

The proposal is usually accompanied by a point blank refusal to contemplate that there dearly held beliefs might have some unintended consequences that don't make the game the magnificent spectacle they had been planning on.

All sport has good and bad games, all sport has periods when there is a level playing field between a number of teams that makes for a great competition, all sport has periods when there are defensive systems in place that make for a dour spectacle, all sport has turgid games.

It appears to me though that Gaelic football has a larger proportion of followers and commentators who are continually self flagellating about the ills of the game and proposing how to fix it than does most other sports, including hurling. And it also appears that this clamour to 'do something' is getting louder and more widespread.

And it also appears that the determination to avoid any contemplation of doing harm to the Association by the constant and unremitting criticism of our games and the demands to make changes is getting more strident also.   
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2018, 11:09:58 AM
Back to 21 aside and point posts!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 14, 2018, 11:13:03 AM
Back to 21 aside and point posts!

That just typifies the attitude.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 14, 2018, 11:17:33 AM

And it also appears that the determination to avoid any contemplation of doing harm to the Association by the constant and unremitting criticism of our games and the demands to make changes is getting more strident also.

Well said.

Beyond obvious that there are too many GAA power-brokers and committees trying to justify their existence by meddling in things they don't fully understand.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2018, 11:27:24 AM
I believe the " offensive mark" now being proposed for inside the 45.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Cunny Funt on November 14, 2018, 02:51:37 PM
Ironically the best change they could make would be to tier the Championship. The weaker teams play these keep ball systems in order to frustrate the more talented teams. But that would be too much sense. Better to make players kick the ball and if they don't kick it we'll take the ball off them and let the other team kick it back to them until someone kicks it over the bar.

Trailer, as a proponent of Tiering can you think of any negatives that may arise from a tiered championship?

I can think of no downside.

Teams get to compete at their level.
Opportunity for more teams to realistically win something.
More competitive, better quality games.
Teams will take the field with a view to beating their opponents rather than an attitude of avoiding a tanking. Resulting in more positive play.
More regular games.
More meaningful games.
If done right, a condensed county season should also come out of an overall fixtures plan that will benefit club and county player alike.

In future all threads on this subject, and indeed committees designed to change the rules should be named 'I can think of no downside'.

The above is a great example of something I said in an earlier post. This debate is characterised by great ideas about how to solve all the ills of our sport, usually shamelessly plagiarised from another poster, media outlet, or indeed another sport altogether.

The proposal is usually accompanied by a point blank refusal to contemplate that there dearly held beliefs might have some unintended consequences that don't make the game the magnificent spectacle they had been planning on.

All sport has good and bad games, all sport has periods when there is a level playing field between a number of teams that makes for a great competition, all sport has periods when there are defensive systems in place that make for a dour spectacle, all sport has turgid games.

It appears to me though that Gaelic football has a larger proportion of followers and commentators who are continually self flagellating about the ills of the game and proposing how to fix it than does most other sports, including hurling. And it also appears that this clamour to 'do something' is getting louder and more widespread.

And it also appears that the determination to avoid any contemplation of doing harm to the Association by the constant and unremitting criticism of our games and the demands to make changes is getting more strident also.

The way to go for some is to bring in tiers to the championship, that would end the hammerings then. Make county like the club championship they say.... but at the weekend just gone we had the champions of Cork,Meath and Roscommon hammered out the gate proving that hammerings happen no matter the format or amount of changes that are made.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: rosnarun on November 14, 2018, 05:05:40 PM
tiers are a good idea bit as Parkinson says your tier must be your aim from the beginning of the year and not a consolation prize . if you win it you then go up .
I would  not like to see more than 3 tiers .  one for the vey weak counties Kilkenny limerick wicklow roscommon  and the like . one for the top 8 to 10  and the rest in the middle . they don't all have to be of equal size .
like a peoper super 98 with every one playing every one or home and away games too increase familiarity
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2018, 05:26:07 PM
I'd say we'd have a good chance against Kilkenny alright ya bx  >:(
My favoures scenario is to replicate the club scene by having 3 All Irelands - Senior/Inter/Junior with Promotion and relegation.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 14, 2018, 06:19:12 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2018, 06:33:53 PM
Going by last year's attendances people are already getting sick of things.......
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 14, 2018, 06:59:27 PM
Going by last year's attendances people are already getting sick of things.......

Money and more matches played a part too.

This last 8 or 9 years, it’s been semis and finals involving Dublin Kerry Tyrone Mayo Donegal etc, and although a few Dublin Mayo games have been good, the constant repeat games does get very tedious.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 14, 2018, 07:26:18 PM
The hurley crowd have the same teams playing each other several times a year yet doesn't get tedious😉.
Anyway let's stick to the topic -will these new proposals do anything to improve football as a spectacle or remove the tedious boring nature of the game?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 14, 2018, 08:02:52 PM
The hurley crowd have the same teams playing each other several times a year yet doesn't get tedious😉.

It certainly did - in spades - when Kilkenny were dominating.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on November 14, 2018, 10:14:02 PM
The hurley crowd have the same teams playing each other several times a year yet doesn't get tedious😉.
Anyway let's stick to the topic -will these new proposals do anything to improve football as a spectacle or remove the tedious boring nature of the game?
It'd be like the rugby. A few good teams playing each other all the time. Everyone loves rugby.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 14, 2018, 10:27:20 PM
The hurley crowd have the same teams playing each other several times a year yet doesn't get tedious😉.
Anyway let's stick to the topic -will these new proposals do anything to improve football as a spectacle or remove the tedious boring nature of the game?
It'd be like the rugby. A few good teams playing each other all the time. Everyone loves rugby.

Speak for yourself!  >:(
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 15, 2018, 12:32:31 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.

The coverage argument is one I don't get at all. The Tier 1 teams already get the vast majority of the coverage. Hurling dominated the early weeks/months of the TV coverage this summer and then the Super 8 kicked in, so I would say the "Tier 2" counties got the lowest coverage ever this year. 2019 will be the same.

Coverage of the Tier 2 teams is about as low as it can go, so the introduction of an actual Tier 2 competition can't makes things worse! In fact, a new Tier 2 would give the opportunity for the next TV deal to include a minimum number of Tier 2 games that must be covered.

If the new Tier 2 is a loser's competition, it'll be a disaster again. There has to be a complete split, and the only way a Tier 2 county can get into Tier 1 is by winning Tier 2. Then it'd be worth winning, and also needs to have "All Ireland" in the title, not somebody's name.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 15, 2018, 02:07:55 PM
I'd say we'd have a good chance against Kilkenny alright ya bx  >:(
My favoures scenario is to replicate the club scene by having 3 All Irelands - Senior/Inter/Junior with Promotion and relegation.

Sounds good, but will it end up like hurling with the promoted side going down again? I would bet any money the McDonagh cup winners will go down. Offaly more than likely will come up, and down again.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 15, 2018, 03:17:57 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.

The coverage argument is one I don't get at all. The Tier 1 teams already get the vast majority of the coverage. Hurling dominated the early weeks/months of the TV coverage this summer and then the Super 8 kicked in, so I would say the "Tier 2" counties got the lowest coverage ever this year. 2019 will be the same.

Coverage of the Tier 2 teams is about as low as it can go, so the introduction of an actual Tier 2 competition can't makes things worse! In fact, a new Tier 2 would give the opportunity for the next TV deal to include a minimum number of Tier 2 games that must be covered.

If the new Tier 2 is a loser's competition, it'll be a disaster again. There has to be a complete split, and the only way a Tier 2 county can get into Tier 1 is by winning Tier 2. Then it'd be worth winning, and also needs to have "All Ireland" in the title, not somebody's name.
I hear there are 2 suggestions by CCCC to Central Council -
1 - All D3 and D4 teams play in the new tier 2.
2- All D3 and D 4 team enter the Qualifiers. Those that lose in Rounds 1 and 2 go into the new competition

2 is the Tommy Murphy Cup all over again while 1 isn't much better as there's no tangible reward for winning (like a place in the main Championship or promotion to Tier 1)
As for coverage - anyone have an idea how many D3 or 4 teams were covered in say last 3 years?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Taylor on November 15, 2018, 03:37:53 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.

The coverage argument is one I don't get at all. The Tier 1 teams already get the vast majority of the coverage. Hurling dominated the early weeks/months of the TV coverage this summer and then the Super 8 kicked in, so I would say the "Tier 2" counties got the lowest coverage ever this year. 2019 will be the same.

Coverage of the Tier 2 teams is about as low as it can go, so the introduction of an actual Tier 2 competition can't makes things worse! In fact, a new Tier 2 would give the opportunity for the next TV deal to include a minimum number of Tier 2 games that must be covered.

If the new Tier 2 is a loser's competition, it'll be a disaster again. There has to be a complete split, and the only way a Tier 2 county can get into Tier 1 is by winning Tier 2. Then it'd be worth winning, and also needs to have "All Ireland" in the title, not somebody's name.
I hear there are 2 suggestions by CCCC to Central Council -
1 - All D3 and D4 teams play in the new tier 2.
2- All D3 and D 4 team enter the Qualifiers. Those that lose in Rounds 1 and 2 go into the new competition

2 is the Tommy Murphy Cup all over again while 1 isn't much better as there's no tangible reward for winning (like a place in the main Championship or promotion to Tier 1)
As for coverage - anyone have an idea how many D3 or 4 teams were covered in say last 3 years?

1 with the winners automatically going up to Div 2 and going into Sam irrespective of where they finish
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Farrandeelin on November 16, 2018, 12:34:03 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.

The coverage argument is one I don't get at all. The Tier 1 teams already get the vast majority of the coverage. Hurling dominated the early weeks/months of the TV coverage this summer and then the Super 8 kicked in, so I would say the "Tier 2" counties got the lowest coverage ever this year. 2019 will be the same.

Coverage of the Tier 2 teams is about as low as it can go, so the introduction of an actual Tier 2 competition can't makes things worse! In fact, a new Tier 2 would give the opportunity for the next TV deal to include a minimum number of Tier 2 games that must be covered.

If the new Tier 2 is a loser's competition, it'll be a disaster again. There has to be a complete split, and the only way a Tier 2 county can get into Tier 1 is by winning Tier 2. Then it'd be worth winning, and also needs to have "All Ireland" in the title, not somebody's name.
I hear there are 2 suggestions by CCCC to Central Council -
1 - All D3 and D4 teams play in the new tier 2.
2- All D3 and D 4 team enter the Qualifiers. Those that lose in Rounds 1 and 2 go into the new competition

2 is the Tommy Murphy Cup all over again while 1 isn't much better as there's no tangible reward for winning (like a place in the main Championship or promotion to Tier 1)
As for coverage - anyone have an idea how many D3 or 4 teams were covered in say last 3 years?

1 with the winners automatically going up to Div 2 and going into Sam irrespective of where they finish

Meaning 2 or 3 relegation places from Division 2 depending on what happens Or?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 16, 2018, 12:43:38 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 16, 2018, 12:53:30 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined

Who has been constantly gaslighting you about this?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 16, 2018, 01:32:20 PM
Gaslighting? ??
Most of the information in the daily papers so I presume you're a 6 Cos resident?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 16, 2018, 01:54:33 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined

Or maybe they realise or are weary like myself that the negatives of these rules and how they encourage the blanket defence to a greater extent will far outweigh the positives especially when you give these rules real thought instead of just deciding based on headlines
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 16, 2018, 02:09:56 PM
Gaslighting? ??
Most of the information in the daily papers so I presume you're a 6 Cos resident?

You and other clambering for rule changes need to let it go. You lot sound like Nigel Farage and Jacob Rees-Mogg constantly talking about EU.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 16, 2018, 02:41:34 PM
?????
Just take your tablets.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Taylor on November 16, 2018, 03:14:56 PM
If you had tiers, tier 1 would get the vast majority of the coverage. Token coverage of semis and finals of tier 2 and 3.

We’d be saturated with matches and more matches of Dublin v Tyrone, Kerry v Dublin, Dublin v Mayo, Mayo v Kerry. And to be honest, even fans from those counties would get sick of the sight of it all.

The coverage argument is one I don't get at all. The Tier 1 teams already get the vast majority of the coverage. Hurling dominated the early weeks/months of the TV coverage this summer and then the Super 8 kicked in, so I would say the "Tier 2" counties got the lowest coverage ever this year. 2019 will be the same.

Coverage of the Tier 2 teams is about as low as it can go, so the introduction of an actual Tier 2 competition can't makes things worse! In fact, a new Tier 2 would give the opportunity for the next TV deal to include a minimum number of Tier 2 games that must be covered.

If the new Tier 2 is a loser's competition, it'll be a disaster again. There has to be a complete split, and the only way a Tier 2 county can get into Tier 1 is by winning Tier 2. Then it'd be worth winning, and also needs to have "All Ireland" in the title, not somebody's name.
I hear there are 2 suggestions by CCCC to Central Council -
1 - All D3 and D4 teams play in the new tier 2.
2- All D3 and D 4 team enter the Qualifiers. Those that lose in Rounds 1 and 2 go into the new competition

2 is the Tommy Murphy Cup all over again while 1 isn't much better as there's no tangible reward for winning (like a place in the main Championship or promotion to Tier 1)
As for coverage - anyone have an idea how many D3 or 4 teams were covered in say last 3 years?

1 with the winners automatically going up to Div 2 and going into Sam irrespective of where they finish

Meaning 2 or 3 relegation places from Division 2 depending on what happens Or?

Yes.
Leagues would be infinitely more competitive as well
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 17, 2018, 11:36:52 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/running-the-rule-over-the-gaa-s-new-football-rules-1.3700044?mode=amp

Will be hard work determining if the ball travelled more than 20 metres for a mark!!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Orchard park on November 17, 2018, 02:09:31 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/running-the-rule-over-the-gaa-s-new-football-rules-1.3700044?mode=amp

Will be hard work determining if the ball travelled more than 20 metres for a mark!!

Imagine Seamus prior or the Duffys on that rule
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 21, 2018, 01:24:29 PM
All at Saturdays CC meeting.
I believe the favoured proposal for a "Tier 2" is for D3/4 teams who lose in Rounds 1 and 2 of the Qualifiers. In other words Tommy Murphy a dó and adding a possible 15 extra County games.
Meanwhile the CPA want tier 2 put on hold pending a total blank sheet review of the whole Calendar. Our Tommy Kenoy has a blank sheet motion for the County Convention.
Also we'll see how the proposed rule change recommendations get on.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on November 21, 2018, 03:39:02 PM
All at Saturdays CC meeting.
I believe the favoured proposal for a "Tier 2" is for D3/4 teams who lose in Rounds 1 and 2 of the Qualifiers. In other words Tommy Murphy a dó and adding a possible 15 extra County games.
Meanwhile the CPA want tier 2 put on hold pending a total blank sheet review of the whole Calendar. Our Tommy Kenoy has a blank sheet motion for the County Convention.
Also we'll see how the proposed rule change recommendations get on.

Tier 2 cannot be a losers competition. Some Counties even struggle to go again for the back door.
For tier 2 to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams entered in it.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 23, 2018, 04:22:31 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/d-day-for-proposed-rule-changes/

Busy day for the CC folks.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on November 23, 2018, 05:17:25 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined

What a horrible idea, having to kick the ball every now and again.

One impact of all this hand passing is that it has allowed some real chanchers  to be Gaelic football managers.
Think about it, keep handpassing and get 13 or 14 behind the ball, as opposed to having to train players to kick it thirty or forty yards. I know what I would like to watch and also know why I have watched less of over the past few years.

Comical how the GPA are so tone deaf, how can they be against this.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 23, 2018, 05:32:19 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined

What a horrible idea, having to kick the ball every now and again.

One impact of all this hand passing is that it has allowed some real chanchers  to be Gaelic football managers.
Think about it, keep handpassing and get 13 or 14 behind the ball, as opposed to having to train players to kick it thirty or forty yards. I know what I would like to watch and also know why I have watched less of over the past few years.

Comical how the GPA are so tone deaf, how can they be against this.

Keep handpassing because teams have 13/14 behind the ball and you can't kick it 30/40 yards and this will encourage and reward 13/14 behind the ball even more....it's crazy some people don't look at the bigger picture and actually give some proper thought to the potential impact of some of these rules
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on November 23, 2018, 05:52:43 PM
Inter County players opposed to handpass restriction, kicking sidelines forward and the kick out proposals.
I suppose it's a bit much to expect the top players in a football code to be kicking the ball or to kick it forward or for 25metres ::)

Decades of throwball has them ruined

What a horrible idea, having to kick the ball every now and again.

One impact of all this hand passing is that it has allowed some real chanchers  to be Gaelic football managers.
Think about it, keep handpassing and get 13 or 14 behind the ball, as opposed to having to train players to kick it thirty or forty yards. I know what I would like to watch and also know why I have watched less of over the past few years.

Comical how the GPA are so tone deaf, how can they be against this.

Keep handpassing because teams have 13/14 behind the ball and you can't kick it 30/40 yards and this will encourage and reward 13/14 behind the ball even more....it's crazy some people don't look at the bigger picture and actually give some proper thought to the potential impact of some of these rules
Thank you tippabu for bringing some sense to matters. "It's a bit much to expect top players to kicking the ball" and "What a horrible idea, having to kick the ball every now and again". Is this was passes for debate now?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 23, 2018, 06:37:15 PM
So the solution is total throwball?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 23, 2018, 07:00:26 PM
So the solution is total throwball?

Honestly I don't know. Making a certain number of players stay forward in the opposition's half is a complete non runner.

Limiting handpasssing I think will encourage the blanket defence and could end up with now instead of being patient and handpasssing the ball after 3 handpasses now it will be kicked back and start again. There are countless goals where brilliant, quick hand passing are the major factor and best way to undo a packed defence.

.............

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 23, 2018, 07:36:52 PM
It's one possibility alright Tipp.
The way things are going and exacerbated by one team being miles ahead of the rest there will be  small crowds watching Inter County Senior football in a few years.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on November 24, 2018, 03:57:41 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Quote
Experimental Football Playing Rules

The proposals relating to the restricted use of the hand-pass, the sideline kick, the introduction of the ‘sin bin’ and the advanced mark were all sanctioned by the meeting.

An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

The experimental period will cover the pre-season competitions run by the provincial councils and the Allianz Football Leagues.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Lunatics in charge of the asylum.  :o  :o   :o

The league is going to be a write-off.

I'll be shocked if there isn't a major backlash.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Captain Obvious on November 24, 2018, 04:12:21 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Quote
Experimental Football Playing Rules

The proposals relating to the restricted use of the hand-pass, the sideline kick, the introduction of the ‘sin bin’ and the advanced mark were all sanctioned by the meeting.

An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

The experimental period will cover the pre-season competitions run by the provincial councils and the Allianz Football Leagues.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Lunatics in charge of the asylum.  :o  :o   :o

The league is going to be a write-off.

I'll be shocked if there isn't a major backlash.
Experimenting during the league goes to show what the powers to be make of the league  ::) When will those at the top realise that the NFL is the best format they have and should making it more important than using this competition to experiment new rules in?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 24, 2018, 04:49:56 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Quote
Experimental Football Playing Rules

The proposals relating to the restricted use of the hand-pass, the sideline kick, the introduction of the ‘sin bin’ and the advanced mark were all sanctioned by the meeting.

An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

The experimental period will cover the pre-season competitions run by the provincial councils and the Allianz Football Leagues.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Lunatics in charge of the asylum.  :o  :o   :o

The league is going to be a write-off.

I'll be shocked if there isn't a major backlash.

i am in shock. thought maybe sin bin and offensive mark would go through and the rest had no hope due to the unbelievably obvious negative effects they will have
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Cunny Funt on November 24, 2018, 05:38:56 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Quote
Experimental Football Playing Rules

The proposals relating to the restricted use of the hand-pass, the sideline kick, the introduction of the ‘sin bin’ and the advanced mark were all sanctioned by the meeting.

An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

The experimental period will cover the pre-season competitions run by the provincial councils and the Allianz Football Leagues.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Lunatics in charge of the asylum.  :o  :o   :o

The league is going to be a write-off.

I'll be shocked if there isn't a major backlash.

i am in shock. thought maybe sin bin and offensive mark would go through and the rest had no hope due to the unbelievably obvious negative effects they will have

Not one bit shocked or surprised. Modern day HQ GAA for you, Change for the sake of change and the common Joe's are told everything will be grand once the latest changes are made.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 24, 2018, 07:10:39 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Quote
Experimental Football Playing Rules

The proposals relating to the restricted use of the hand-pass, the sideline kick, the introduction of the ‘sin bin’ and the advanced mark were all sanctioned by the meeting.

An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

The experimental period will cover the pre-season competitions run by the provincial councils and the Allianz Football Leagues.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

Lunatics in charge of the asylum.  :o  :o   :o

The league is going to be a write-off.

I'll be shocked if there isn't a major backlash.

i am in shock. thought maybe sin bin and offensive mark would go through and the rest had no hope due to the unbelievably obvious negative effects they will have

Not one bit shocked or surprised. Modern day HQ GAA for you, Change for the sake of change and the common Joe's are told everything will be grand once the latest changes are made.

Yeah, GAA HQ are behaving very like the DUP.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on November 24, 2018, 07:50:21 PM
From grassroots-gaa.com




Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 24, 2018, 08:11:42 PM
From grassroots-gaa.com




the 1st day these rules came out and some people were jumping for joy that handpassing was being tackled i put up here that this was exactly what i thought would happen
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cjx on November 24, 2018, 10:21:36 PM
No surprise the sheep said baa to all 5 rules No brains involved Just do what the politburo tells you
Farce will result with 2 hand pass kick back til your in your own square and panic kick or a wrestling 🤼‍♀️  match develops 20 m mark is far to short Remember the philosophers football match in Monty Python that is what we'll get now. Slow and boring
So what to do? I say
1. Ban the handpass fist pass only (less reliable so encourages kicking)
2. Kick-out from small square no possession until over 20m line (scare the keepers into long kicks)
3. 30m (approx)Mark from all kickout outs (over 45m line) frees and sidelines ( not open play - clearer easy to ref distance wise etc.) and
4. 2 minute shot clock in 2nd half and any further time ( maybe 1 min in final added and extra time)

We want people to try to score quicker and release the ball more often surely?

 The currently proposed rules will have the opposite effect with slower games, more confusion, more frustration, more rows fights and time wasting.

 Talk about handing the game over to rugby and soccer (with soccer also able to deal honestly with gratuitous violence).

 GAA is writing its own death warrant.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 25, 2018, 12:34:05 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 25, 2018, 12:41:38 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: hardstation on November 25, 2018, 01:38:32 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.
Exactly. Another bullshit exercise.
Nostalgia is another problem.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 25, 2018, 01:45:16 PM
Increase the value of a point outside a 30m zone from goal.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: TheGreatest on November 26, 2018, 08:51:00 AM
Its going to be lowest scoring league of the modern era, and the dullest.

A bad bad call to proceed with this rule.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 26, 2018, 08:58:59 AM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.

The only way to bring it “back” is to make territory more appealing than possession.

The simplest way to do this is to bring in the Aussie Rules tackle.

It could also be achieved by preventing teams from passing backwards over the 45s and 65s, in that endless possession becomes more difficult to sustain in a decreasing space, and therefore a less attractive ploy; by nature it encourages more direct football.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 26, 2018, 10:04:38 AM
This is going to be a huge shit show. Some of these rules are absolutely ridiculous, other downright stupid.

Perhaps a very clever move by the GAA. By showcasing how bad these rules will be, they may quieten the constant claims for rule changes for a generation.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on November 26, 2018, 10:13:30 AM
Summary here

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/gaa-faced-a-no-win-task-in-implementing-rule-changes-1.3710157

Of the five rule changes that will come into play, two are straightforward.

Sideline balls can only be kicked forward rather than laterally or towards a team’s own goal. The argument against this is that it encourages the defending team to drop back in order to limit the options for the player taking the sideline ball. Whether it works or not won’t have a significant impact on the overall shape of the game.

The introduction of the sin-bin, where a black card will mean a 10- minute absence for the offending player, is a straightforward attempt to deal with the issue of persistent and cynical fouling.

Kicking game

The big change revolves around the rule restricting the team in possession to three consecutive handpasses. It was, David Hassan, the committee chairman acknowledged in October, devised to try and combat the “chain of handpassing” that has come to dominate the game. It will, he predicated, “require that players and coaches change the way they use the handpass”.





















































































The hope is that it will encourage teams towards a more direct kicking game. The fear is that the opposite will occur. Coaches and players see the handpass as the safest –and most accurate – way to transfer the ball from one to another at close quarters. Frequent, swift, handpass interplay has been developed by teams as the only way to play through the deep, zonal defensive set-ups that opposition teams employ to thwart offensive play.

The trend in recent seasons, of teams patiently and endlessly recycling the ball just beyond the zone of defensive pressure won’t change because they team in possession must kick pass the ball after every third pass. But once that team does try to beat a mass defence, the players will have to be conscious of the sequence of passes involved in a move that is taking place in real time.

While it is true that coaches will come up with drills to try and facilitate this, it is also true that defensively coaches will train their teams to try exploit the obligation on the team in possession to use the kick pass: that they will jump or trap the player at the end of the chain of three hand passes and force either a turnover or a wild kick pass.

Free kick

However, the implementation of the advanced mark, which will allow a player the option of a free kick – or shot at goal – for a ball caught cleanly from a pass kicked from inside the attacking team’s 45 – will represent the biggest fundamental change throughout the league.

The hope is that it will encourage a return to the more direct long-range kicking game that commentators fear is disappearing. The fear is that it will instigate an even more cautious defensive approach from managers fearful of leaving marksmen with a free shot at goal.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Christmas Lights on November 26, 2018, 02:27:03 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.

The only way to bring it “back” is to make territory more appealing than possession.

The simplest way to do this is to bring in the Aussie Rules tackle.

It could also be achieved by preventing teams from passing backwards over the 45s and 65s, in that endless possession becomes more difficult to sustain in a decreasing space, and therefore a less attractive ploy; by nature it encourages more direct football.



If you could stop posting, that would be wonderful.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 26, 2018, 04:03:51 PM
If I apologise, would it be okay for me to kee posting?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 26, 2018, 05:53:35 PM
Teams will prevent quick sidelines by booting the ball out into the terrace
So that they can get 15 behind the ball to flood the space
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on November 26, 2018, 06:52:17 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.



The only way to bring it “back” is to make territory more appealing than possession.

The simplest way to do this is to bring in the Aussie Rules tackle.

It could also be achieved by preventing teams from passing backwards over the 45s and 65s, in that endless possession becomes more difficult to sustain in a decreasing space, and therefore a less attractive ploy; by nature it encourages more direct football.
If teams cannot pass back over the 45 or 65 they will be more reluctant to cross it in the first place at least until they had sufficient men forward so you would be penalising fast attacking play.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on November 26, 2018, 07:10:25 PM
Teams will prevent quick sidelines by booting the ball out into the terrace
So that they can get 15 behind the ball to flood the space

Awful hoors
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 26, 2018, 07:40:26 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.



The only way to bring it “back” is to make territory more appealing than possession.

The simplest way to do this is to bring in the Aussie Rules tackle.

It could also be achieved by preventing teams from passing backwards over the 45s and 65s, in that endless possession becomes more difficult to sustain in a decreasing space, and therefore a less attractive ploy; by nature it encourages more direct football.
If teams cannot pass back over the 45 or 65 they will be more reluctant to cross it in the first place at least until they had sufficient men forward so you would be penalising fast attacking play.

I see it the opposite way. If a defending team know they can contain the opposition in a smaller space, there would be a genuine incentive to push up and force / cajole them into that smaller space. So, initially at least, there should be more room in the opposition half to attack.

Of course this measure would be detrimental to possession based football. But possession football should require skill, and moving the ball endlessly around in your own half isn’t skilful. Most of the time it’s just clock killing. Which is not something the rules of any game should openly permit.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 26, 2018, 07:44:54 PM
Don't understand the constant need to tweet the rules

No amount of tweaking will bring the game back to the catch and kick/high fielding/man to man game. Modern coaches are ruining the game as a spectacle, but they will always find a way around a new rule. All these changes annually is just like a dog chasing it’s tail.



The only way to bring it “back” is to make territory more appealing than possession.

The simplest way to do this is to bring in the Aussie Rules tackle.

It could also be achieved by preventing teams from passing backwards over the 45s and 65s, in that endless possession becomes more difficult to sustain in a decreasing space, and therefore a less attractive ploy; by nature it encourages more direct football.
If teams cannot pass back over the 45 or 65 they will be more reluctant to cross it in the first place at least until they had sufficient men forward so you would be penalising fast attacking play.

I see it the opposite way. If a defending team know they can contain the opposition in a smaller space, there would be a genuine incentive to push up and force / cajole them into that smaller space. So, initially at least, there should be more room in the opposition half to attack.

Of course this measure would be detrimental to possession based football. But possession football should require skill, and moving the ball endlessly around in your own half isn’t skilful. Most of the time it’s just clock killing. Which is not something the rules of any game should openly permit.
There aren't many field sports which have rules like that
Basketball, NFL
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on November 26, 2018, 08:53:39 PM
If you wanted evidence that this committee were making things up as they went along, it's clear from the fact that the kickout rule has been revised twice already and they haven't even published the current version of the rule.

Initially the new rule was

Quote
Proposal (5)
Kick-Out/Zoning

For a kick-out, two players only from each team shall be positioned between the two 45m lines.

The goalkeeper and a maximum of six players from each team shall be behind the respective 45m lines, until the ball is kicked.

The ball from the kick-out shall travel beyond the 45m line before being played by a player of the defending team.

Other Rules relating to the kick-out to remain unchanged.

Penalties:

(1)  For another player on the team taking a kick-out to play the ball before it has travelled outside the 45m line or has been played by an opposing player.

Penalty:

(i)  Cancel kick-out

(ii)  Throw in the ball on defenders’ 20m line in front of the scoring space.

(2)  For a player to cross a 45m line before the ball is kicked for the kick-out.

(3)  For a player(s) to, in the opinion of the referee, deliberately seek to delay the kick-out by not retreating behind the 45m lines in a timely manner.

Penalty for the above Fouls:

A 45m free off the ground and in front of the scoring space shall be awarded to the opposing team.

(4)  For a player(s) of each team to simultaneously cross the 45m line(s) before the ball is kicked from the kick-out:

Penalty:

A throw-in ball shall be awarded on the centre of the 45m line involved or at the centre of the field (if infringements are made on both 45m lines).

Lots of people pointed to countless issues with this rule immediately on reading it.

Then when the first trials happened, this proposed rule was such an utter disaster that it was abandoned part-way through the trial.

The committee then came up with a revised proposal

Quote
Proposal 5: Kick-Out

Proposal for Experimentation (Kick-Out): The kick-out shall be taken off the ground from a point on the part of the 20 m line that forms the semi-circular arc.

The ball shall not be played by a defending player until the ball has crossed the 45m line (nearest the kick-out point) or is played by an opposing player.

All players, other than the Goalkeeper (and another player if the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out) shall be outside the 20m line, outside the arc and 13m from the ball until it has been kicked.

Penalties:

For another player on the team taking a kick-out to play the ball before it has crossed the 45m line (nearest the kick-out point) or has been played by an opposing player.

Penalty:

(i) Cancel kick-out

(ii) Throw in the ball on defenders’ 20m line in front of the scoring space.

For an opposing player not being outside the 20m line, outside the arc and 13m from the ball when it is kicked.

Penalty:

Free kick 13m more advantageous than place of original kick-out.

For another player on the team taking a kick-out not being outside the 20m line, outside the arc and 13m from the ball until it has been kicked.

Penalty:

(i) Cancel kick-out

(ii) Throw-in the ball on defenders’ 20m line in front of the scoring space

Now according to reports a third modified version of the rule has passed.

The only thing on the GAA website I could find related to his 3rd version of the rule is

Quote
An amended version of the kick-out proposal was also passed that will see all kick-outs take place from the 20m line without having to pass the 45m line.

http://www.gaa.ie/news/second-tier-championship-format-to-be-discussed-in-january/

So it would appear that the GAA has not even bothered to properly announce version 3 of the new kick-out rule.

According to media reports the bit about having to pass the 45 metre line was abandoned due to concerns about underage goalkeepers not being able to kick that far.

However it's not clear what the current proposed rule says about
1) does it have to be the goalkeeper taking the kickout?
2) do the players have to be 13 metres back from ball when it is kicked
3) does the ball have to travel 13 metres (can a player who is 13 metres away when the ball is kicked run towards the ball and catch it less than 13 metres from where it was kicked)

It's clear that the whole process of coming up with and trialling these new rules has a very strong whiff of throwing enough shit at a wall and seeing what sticks.

At the moment it looks like all this kickout rule will do different is that the kickout will now be taken from the 20 metre line as opposed to the 13 metre line.

The only positive thing I have read is that there will be a final review after the pre-season competitions, prior to the league, so I'd be hopeful that sense will be seen and they play the league under the current rules, get rid of the current gobdaws on the rules committee and start from the beginning and set up a proper system for coming up with and tweaking the rules and having a proper trial and review system in place whereby the lads on the committee have to actually attend the trials in person and take direct feedback from players and managers involved in the trials.

For reference the current rule relating to the kickout is as follows.

Quote
2.7 (a) When the ball is played over the endline by the Team attacking that end, or after a score  is made, play is restarted by a kick-out off the ground from the 13m line and within the large rectangle.

If the goalkeeper is not taking the kick-out, he shall stay in the small rectangle, and all other  players, except the player taking the kick-out, shall be outside the 20m line and 13m from the
ball, until it has been kicked.

The player taking a kick-out may kick the ball more than once before any other player touches it but may not take the ball into his hands.

The ball shall travel not less than 13m and outside the 20m line before being played by another player of the defending team.

(b) The Player taking the kick-out after the ball goes wide or a score shall have the option of using a standard tee as approved by Central Council.


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: shawshank on November 26, 2018, 09:18:43 PM
Not a fan of the new rules...period. On the kick out, with it being taken from the 20m, it does condense the space to kick to?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 26, 2018, 09:27:18 PM
110 metres instead of 117?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on November 26, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 27, 2018, 07:38:47 AM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?

I am not a fan of the shot clock because I just feel teams without possession will go much more into a contain defence and focus purely on preventing teams getting to shooting opportunities rather than focusing on turning the ball over. also, think it would be far too hard to implement. Like i said i see alot of potentially big advantages to 13 a side, the offensive mark might be good but could also have its flaws in how teams defend it, we will wait and see.....after that i really cant think of anything sensible that will improve the game in any way
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 27, 2018, 09:07:47 AM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?
Do you honestly think what we have currently is so dreadful.

Over the last 5 years, how many great spectacles have Mayo been involved?
How many awful specatacles have they been involved in?

I would have thought the former outweighs the latter by a long long way.

No need for shot clocks, no need for 13 a side.

Though I am glad the offensive mark wasn't in over recent years. Given the number of times AOS caught a clean catch in the full forward line against us, but was swamped by defenders and almost inevitable conceded a free. The offensive mark will encourage kicking, none of the other nonsense needed. Almost all the other rules, esp limiting handpassing and no backwards sidelines encourage teams to pile men back. Exactly the opposite of what's needed.

As I said on another thread, it went almost unnoticed that Kilmacud and Portlaoise produced a great game in horrible November. If that had been a 0-6 to 0-4 borefest, it would have gotten far more media coverage. Imagine if soccer lads criticised the game everytime there was a boring 0-0 or 1-0, when a teams goes ahead and shuts up shop!

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 09:22:01 AM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?
Do you honestly think what we have currently is so dreadful.

Over the last 5 years, how many great spectacles have Mayo been involved?
How many awful specatacles have they been involved in?

I would have thought the former outweighs the latter by a long long way.

No need for shot clocks, no need for 13 a side.

Though I am glad the offensive mark wasn't in over recent years. Given the number of times AOS caught a clean catch in the full forward line against us, but was swamped by defenders and almost inevitable conceded a free. The offensive mark will encourage kicking, none of the other nonsense needed. Almost all the other rules, esp limiting handpassing and no backwards sidelines encourage teams to pile men back. Exactly the opposite of what's needed.

As I said on another thread, it went almost unnoticed that Kilmacud and Portlaoise produced a great game in horrible November. If that had been a 0-6 to 0-4 borefest, it would have gotten far more media coverage. Imagine if soccer lads criticised the game everytime there was a boring 0-0 or 1-0, when a teams goes ahead and shuts up shop!
Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 27, 2018, 09:35:31 AM

Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.

Attendances aren't actually falling. Some are up, some are down. We're certainly below peak, but well up on the "glory years" of 70s and 80s when everything was great.

Hurling had most of those issues when Kilkenny were dominating.
The standard in hurling has gone back in recent years. This year was very mediocre, but benefitted from the fact there a lot of teams at the same level, so matches were exciting. If Cody's best team was around, nobody would have got within 10 points of them.

The 2018 All Ireland hurling final was among the worst in the last 20 yerars. Horrible standard. In the second half both teams completely bottled it, trying their best to give it away to each other and hitting over 40 wides in the process.   

There are certainly more hurling teams than football teams who have problems in getting people to commit to training etc. Why are Offaly and Antrim hurling so far behind where they were when they peaked? Why does nobody care? Laois hurling is further away from winning Leinster hurling than Leinster football, and they're a long way from the latter.  Galway don't even have a provincial championship they can play in at home in hurling. Yeah, hurling is in an awesome place. If only football was so competitive.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on November 27, 2018, 09:55:38 AM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?
Do you honestly think what we have currently is so dreadful.

Over the last 5 years, how many great spectacles have Mayo been involved?
How many awful specatacles have they been involved in?

I would have thought the former outweighs the latter by a long long way.

No need for shot clocks, no need for 13 a side.

Though I am glad the offensive mark wasn't in over recent years. Given the number of times AOS caught a clean catch in the full forward line against us, but was swamped by defenders and almost inevitable conceded a free. The offensive mark will encourage kicking, none of the other nonsense needed. Almost all the other rules, esp limiting handpassing and no backwards sidelines encourage teams to pile men back. Exactly the opposite of what's needed.

As I said on another thread, it went almost unnoticed that Kilmacud and Portlaoise produced a great game in horrible November. If that had been a 0-6 to 0-4 borefest, it would have gotten far more media coverage. Imagine if soccer lads criticised the game everytime there was a boring 0-0 or 1-0, when a teams goes ahead and shuts up shop!
Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.
What does this have to do with the new rules?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 10:04:14 AM

Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.

Attendances aren't actually falling. Some are up, some are down. We're certainly below peak, but well up on the "glory years" of 70s and 80s when everything was great.

Hurling had most of those issues when Kilkenny were dominating.
The standard in hurling has gone back in recent years. This year was very mediocre, but benefitted from the fact there a lot of teams at the same level, so matches were exciting. If Cody's best team was around, nobody would have got within 10 points of them.

The 2018 All Ireland hurling final was among the worst in the last 20 yerars. Horrible standard. In the second half both teams completely bottled it, trying their best to give it away to each other and hitting over 40 wides in the process.   

There are certainly more hurling teams than football teams who have problems in getting people to commit to training etc. Why are Offaly and Antrim hurling so far behind where they were when they peaked? Why does nobody care? Laois hurling is further away from winning Leinster hurling than Leinster football, and they're a long way from the latter.  Galway don't even have a provincial championship they can play in at home in hurling. Yeah, hurling is in an awesome place. If only football was so competitive.

Football is a mess, Hound.

Oddschecker odds for 2019
Football

Top 4  1/2 to 14/1
Number of counties 10/1 to 1/10-  2

Hurling

Top 4
7/2 to 5/1
Number of counties  10/1 to 1/10 - 6

Even if the success was evenly spread around the game is a poor spectacle.
The game has mutated into a technical borefest suited to the teams with the most money
Attendances have been falling since 2001
How many exciting matches in July and August did football have this year ?


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 27, 2018, 10:40:38 AM
Seafood, yes a technical borefest. But this possession-based, sidewards/backwards bollix of a keep-ball game isn’t going away, no matter what rules are brought in. Sadly, what we see now is here to stay.

God help us all.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 27, 2018, 10:54:45 AM
Seafood, yes a technical borefest. But this possession-based, sidewards/backwards bollix of a keep-ball game isn’t going away, no matter what rules are brought in. Sadly, what we see now is here to stay.

God help us all.

Have a look at the history section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_clock


Coaches and players have been ruining sport for as long as we’ve had sport. It can be fixed.

Not necessarily with a shot clock by the way. Just some form of strong disincentive for not attacking.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: TheGreatest on November 27, 2018, 11:44:14 AM
Sorry it this was posted before, but GPA survey with players, 96% appose the new hand pass rule.

Its going to ruin the game.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 11:45:38 AM
Sorry it this was posted before, but GPA survey with players, 96% appose the new hand pass rule.

Its going to ruin the game.
Hospital pass or hail mary pass ?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:52:29 AM
Fkn handpass has ruined the game.
John Horan reported as saying over the weekend we now have Gaelic Handball instead of Gaelic Football.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: general_lee on November 27, 2018, 11:57:24 AM
I think what the purists want is catch and kick. No structure or tactics other than catch the ball and kick the f**king thing as far and as hard and as high as you can for some mutant in full forward to catch and presumably score. Because apparently the best aspect of Gaelic football is the art of high fielding. How is the game going to be attractive to anyone if you keep changing the f**king rules?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: TheGreatest on November 27, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
Not according to the players who actually play the game.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/gpa-want-talks-gaa-over-15470754

In terms of most disruptive rule changes, the GPA recently carried out a survey from which it emerged that 96% of those polled were against the restriction on the handpass, with 54% in favour of the mark.

And it is also my belief, for all the Dublin haters out there etc, this rule will only strengthen Dublin as they are probably the best kick passing team in the country. They will figure it out.



Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 27, 2018, 12:21:48 PM
Not according to the players who actually play the game.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/gpa-want-talks-gaa-over-15470754

In terms of most disruptive rule changes, the GPA recently carried out a survey from which it emerged that 96% of those polled were against the restriction on the handpass, with 54% in favour of the mark.

And it also my believe, for all the Dublin haters out there etc, this rule will only strengthen Dublin as they are probably the best kick passing team in the country. They will figure it out.

They’re the most ruthless counter-attacking side in the country, and by a mile. So they should in theory have the least adjustment to make.

But they’ve been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won’t be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 27, 2018, 12:32:35 PM
People pointing out the differences in hurling and football as a spectacle could maybe take into account the fact that football has been emasculated to the point where it is acceptable for players in contact to be 'entitled to go down', something you would rarely, if ever, see in hurling.

The massive divergence that has developed in the physicality of the 2 games due to the way in which they are refereed is the major influence in the unattractiveness of football as opposed to hurling IMO.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 27, 2018, 03:55:38 PM

But they’ve been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won’t be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.

Last year v Donegal (when winning well but Donegal still having everyone back) was the only part of a game where Dublin could rightfully be accused of "endlessly recycling". 

The new rules won't change that one iota. There was lots of sideways and backways kickpassing in that 10 minutes of boredom and there is nothing in the new rules that would force Donegal to come out and try and win the ball. When people cop on that the new handpass rule is totally ineffective in stopping this, then some genius will come up with the idea of no kick backpass allowed, thus encouraging more counties to adopt the mass defence.

The new handpass rule will curtail the effectiveness of the Jack McCaffreys, Lee Keegans, Tiernan McCanns, Ryan McHughs making storming runs up the field, having 1-2s with others as they go.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on November 27, 2018, 04:11:21 PM

But they’ve been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won’t be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.

Last year v Donegal (when winning well but Donegal still having everyone back) was the only part of a game where Dublin could rightfully be accused of "endlessly recycling". 

The new rules won't change that one iota. There was lots of sideways and backways kickpassing in that 10 minutes of boredom and there is nothing in the new rules that would force Donegal to come out and try and win the ball. When people cop on that the new handpass rule is totally ineffective in stopping this, then some genius will come up with the idea of no kick backpass allowed, thus encouraging more counties to adopt the mass defence.

The new handpass rule will curtail the effectiveness of the Jack McCaffreys, Lee Keegans, Tiernan McCanns, Ryan McHughs making storming runs up the field, having 1-2s with others as they go.

This.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: imtommygunn on November 27, 2018, 04:13:45 PM
I was watching tg4 highlights last night and thinking that the clare team would be completely buggered by this rule change. They did a lot of short handpassing, in the highlights anyway, which was all good stuff and very positive at times. That wouldn't have been allowed with the new rules. The three hand pass thing is a nonsense and should be binned.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2018, 05:11:15 PM
The best soccer teams press the ball high up the pitch.
Poor teams retreat to defend the space

There's a lesson in that for GAA teams. You really cannot carry a few forwards not willing to work hard
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: shark on November 27, 2018, 05:15:31 PM
I was watching tg4 highlights last night and thinking that the clare team would be completely buggered by this rule change. They did a lot of short handpassing, in the highlights anyway, which was all good stuff and very positive at times. That wouldn't have been allowed with the new rules. The three hand pass thing is a nonsense and should be binned.

Agree. skip to 16:50 on the clip below. Is this goal an affront to how football should be played? 6 hand passes in a row.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWAln129mOw
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: five points on November 28, 2018, 10:53:21 AM
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Maybe we need a smaller ball?  :-\
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on November 28, 2018, 01:11:02 PM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Are you seriously suggesting this? This is a valid solution? Seriously?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 28, 2018, 01:12:53 PM
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Maybe we need a smaller ball?  :-\

Maybe we need two balls?

Now there’s a game worth watching!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sligoman2 on November 28, 2018, 01:15:54 PM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Can't see the shot clock for second half only, think of the possibilities if there is a gale force wind blowing?  For me the change that definitely should have occurred is mandating a minimum of 4 outfield players in both halves of the field.  The biggest issue is mass defenses which leads to back passing, hand passing and that issue has not been addresses imo.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on November 28, 2018, 01:54:11 PM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Can't see the shot clock for second half only, think of the possibilities if there is a gale force wind blowing?  For me the change that definitely should have occurred is mandating a minimum of 4 outfield players in both halves of the field.  The biggest issue is mass defenses which leads to back passing, hand passing and that issue has not been addresses imo.
This!

Mass defences is the problem.  Most of the other problems (ball retention, endless handpassing, back passing, lack of long direct kick passes) are symptoms of the packed defences. 
Any solutions should be aimed at reducing the numbers teams have in defence. Ideally, it wouldn't be a rule to force that, but if that's what it takes then so be it.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on November 28, 2018, 02:43:02 PM
The best soccer teams press the ball high up the pitch.
Poor teams retreat to defend the space

There's a lesson in that for GAA teams. You really cannot carry a few forwards not willing to work hard
Parkinson made an interesting comment on the 3 hand pass rule that throws another angle on it.

As well as limiting the ability of attacking half backs to maraude forward, I was thinking the rule would encourage defending teams to pull everyone back in defence, so the attacking team would be left with no option but to kick balls in to forwards who are double marked when their 3 handpasses are up (or else just keep kicking it backwards).

However, Parkinson made the point that if a team with 13-15 men back win possession, and the other team maintains a high press, the defensive team would have no way of getting the ball out within 3 handpasses. They'd end up kicking it straight back and would be lucky to get the ball over half way. So it would be a ridiculous tactic and impossible to win with. Therefore, you would have to leave a decent number of men up to make sure you are able to get forward when you do win a turnover.

Now of course a team could still do 13-15 men back if they wanted to make the game a farce, but they'd look very stupid and would still end up getting a tanking, so in reality it would be hard to see any decent coach advocating it.

I think that's an interesting point by Parkinson. So I'm thinking it's maybe worth waiting to see how it plays out before dismissing it.   
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: FermGael on November 28, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
GPA has flexed its muscle
http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2018/11/28/news/breaking-gaa-agrees-to-review-rule-changes-after-pre-season-competitions-following-meeting-with-gpa-1496428  (http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2018/11/28/news/breaking-gaa-agrees-to-review-rule-changes-after-pre-season-competitions-following-meeting-with-gpa-1496428)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on November 28, 2018, 06:46:52 PM
GPA has flexed its muscle
http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2018/11/28/news/breaking-gaa-agrees-to-review-rule-changes-after-pre-season-competitions-following-meeting-with-gpa-1496428  (http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2018/11/28/news/breaking-gaa-agrees-to-review-rule-changes-after-pre-season-competitions-following-meeting-with-gpa-1496428)

its a complete joke....these are fairly major changes and will take alot of work from coaches, so now do they coach these rules, they will have to really but it might end up a big waste of time and effort if there are changes again. if they are gotten rid of youve just over a week to revert to the old ones
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on November 28, 2018, 07:00:47 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/new-hand-pass-rule-is-doomed-to-failure-888035.html?&session=8MCU/hPirektZCmukhstqo1O6RoYSv2m80JhwsoPsAE=


JOHN FOGARTY: New hand-pass rule is doomed to failure


Whataboutery is usually an exercise best avoided but, bear with us: in this instance, it is worth indulging. We’re trying to imagine the game of Gaelic football without more than three consecutive hand-passes, which will be the situation in a couple of weeks.
We could discuss how counterproductive the limit will be. We could mention how teams, as reports from recent trial matches among colleges sides have claimed, kick the ball back as soon as they hit three to restart the process for fear they might lose possession with a kick forward.


We could suggest the best inter-county teams are so savvy that they — like hurlers bounce the ball to themselves to break a possession and therefore catch the ball more than twice — will purposely break the chain of hand-passes with something like a deliberate hand-pass to ground in front of their intended target, a spilled solo or a ground kick, that the referee has to recount.
We could also argue it’s better to incentivise using the foot than attempting to punish a lesser skill. But for now we will consider how poorer an already dismal 2018 Championship would have been without teams being able to put together more than three straight hand-passes.
James McCarthy’s fine goal against Tyrone in Omagh? It would have been ruled out as soon as he received the ball through a fourth consecutive hand-pass from Con O’Callaghan.

Donegal’s first goal in the Ulster final? Void. While you’re at it, cancel out their fine second goal too as Paul Brennan fed the goalscorer Ryan McHugh. And Hugh McFadden’s against Derry.
And Leon McLoone’s against Down. Yes, Donegal appear to be the team that have most to lose from this purge on the hand-pass, although Harry Loughran’s goal against them in Ballybofey would have been ruled out for the same reason.
But there’s more. Vinny Corey’s against Tyrone in Omagh, Ciarán Murtagh’s against Galway, Gearóid McKiernan’s against Down, Paul Geaney’s second against Cork, Enda Smith’s first goal against Armagh (six hand-passes preceded that swift move from defence) and Neil Flynn’s against Kerry.
While we’re at it, and bearing in mind the ban on the backward sideline kick, Damien Comer’s goal against Dublin in the All-Ireland semi-final would not have stood as Ian Burke initiated the move for the goal by reversing a sideline ball to Ciarán Duggan.
Traceback from this year’s Championship and the impact of the hand-pass limit can truly be gauged. Voted the greatest GAA moment in an RTÉ poll in 2005, Seán Óg de Paor’s point in the 1998 All-Ireland final would never have happened once Michael Donnellan laid off the ball to Derek Savage.
And don’t even begin to discuss Michael Farragher’s magical goal for Corofin in this year’s All-Ireland club final, all 16 of the passes in the breathtaking build-up coming from the hand.
Cillian O’Connor’s additional time equaliser in the drawn 2016 All-Ireland final? Afraid not since four hand-passes were strung together before he let fly. Ten years earlier, Ciarán McDonald’s point to beat Dublin in that year’s semi-final would also have been culled.
Kevin Foley’s famous goal in 1991? Five hand-passes on the trot. Peter Canavan’s late point against Kerry in 2005 would have been dismissed for one hand-pass too many.

Few can disagree that the playing rules committee’s heart is in the right place. Only formed this year, they have proved extremely productive. They rightly highlight that the hand-pass has become too prevalent but there is little consideration given to the fact a transfer from hand to hand, be it the second or 14th in a row, can be a positive possession.
It hasn’t helped their credibility that their original kick-out proposal has twice been amended, firstly by themselves on the back of feedback from those at the coalface and then by Central Council on Saturday.
To their credit, the committee said they wanted their proposals to be multilateral but a second change at the weekend so kick-outs now need not pass the 45-metre line, damages their hopes to further the promotion of high fielding.
As an aside, all kick-outs still must be a minimum of 13m in length so might that prompt a redrawing of the field such as creating a 13m radius from the middle of the 20m line? It would make referees’ lives easier anyway.
Starting next month and continuing into January, there will be outrage about rationing a play that footballers have been so accustomed to exercising and coaches preaching. It won’t help that this experiment comes at a time of the year when the conditions accentuate the virtue of keeping the ball in hand.
The GAA might reason that as a mitigating reason for the forthcoming uproar but it’s not going to be enough for them to ride it.
As Stephen O’Meara, the performance analyst for Galway's senior footballers who also assists Corofin's analysis team, points out, the hand-pass is the effect, not the cause of why Gaelic football has become more difficult to enjoy. Much like GAA president John Horan says only attitudes, not rules, can enshrine the GAA’s amateur ethos. Gaelic football’s future lies solely in the hands of those that coach and play it.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on November 28, 2018, 07:27:04 PM
Seen that in some of the games that it was trialled in they were incredibly low scoring. In most after two hand passes they kicked it  backwards in order to keep possession and not risk having no option on third handpass.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on November 28, 2018, 07:42:43 PM
Regarding the hand passing rule. The new rule is obviously to encourage more kick passing. But teams are all about possession now. Teams won’t kick a 50/50 ball. They will just recycle until space opens up.

Aussie Rules has a lot more kicking. More 50/50 balls. That’s probably because there’s more space and you’d be a long time fisting the ball the length of that pitch.

If the GAA want to encourage kicking, they should either make the pitch bigger (not feasible) or reduce the number of players (doable).
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Stall the Bailer on November 28, 2018, 09:27:36 PM
Thought this was an interesting take on the changes. https://www.grassroots-gaa.com/the-one-rule-change-to-change-football-over-night/
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on November 28, 2018, 10:25:52 PM
The best soccer teams press the ball high up the pitch.
Poor teams retreat to defend the space

There's a lesson in that for GAA teams. You really cannot carry a few forwards not willing to work hard
Parkinson made an interesting comment on the 3 hand pass rule that throws another angle on it.

As well as limiting the ability of attacking half backs to maraude forward, I was thinking the rule would encourage defending teams to pull everyone back in defence, so the attacking team would be left with no option but to kick balls in to forwards who are double marked when their 3 handpasses are up (or else just keep kicking it backwards).

However, Parkinson made the point that if a team with 13-15 men back win possession, and the other team maintains a high press, the defensive team would have no way of getting the ball out within 3 handpasses. They'd end up kicking it straight back and would be lucky to get the ball over half way. So it would be a ridiculous tactic and impossible to win with. Therefore, you would have to leave a decent number of men up to make sure you are able to get forward when you do win a turnover.

Now of course a team could still do 13-15 men back if they wanted to make the game a farce, but they'd look very stupid and would still end up getting a tanking, so in reality it would be hard to see any decent coach advocating it.

I think that's an interesting point by Parkinson. So I'm thinking it's maybe worth waiting to see how it plays out before dismissing it.

Interesting take on it tbf, my guess though is that most teams will take the low risk option of flooding back immediately, only the better teams will try the high press
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sid waddell on November 29, 2018, 01:16:14 AM
Thought this was an interesting take on the changes. https://www.grassroots-gaa.com/the-one-rule-change-to-change-football-over-night/

Stephen's solution there had been suggested already...



Simple. Ban backpasses to the goalkeeper.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: intoDwest on November 29, 2018, 09:54:17 AM
Thought this was an interesting take on the changes. https://www.grassroots-gaa.com/the-one-rule-change-to-change-football-over-night/

Stephen's solution there had been suggested already...



Simple. Ban backpasses to the goalkeeper.

What's the downside to this change....it seems too obvious.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on November 29, 2018, 11:38:21 AM
Thought this was an interesting take on the changes. https://www.grassroots-gaa.com/the-one-rule-change-to-change-football-over-night/

Stephen's solution there had been suggested already...



Simple. Ban backpasses to the goalkeeper.

What's the downside to this change....it seems too obvious.

I agree with all the points made in the article but not with his solution. Or maybe his solution needs greater clarification.

In soccer, a keeper is always an active option for a pass, but the key difference being he cannot pick the ball up and either clock kill or throw it over an opponent’s head. So the role of a keeper has evolved with this rule.

Unless I’m reading it wrong, he’s suggesting any pass to a keeper becomes outlawed (95 times out of 100), a keeper will be behind the play.

In effect it would make the role of a keeper a horrible job; he’s basically marooning them to the small square. They are no longer a footballer. Just a keeper.

Perhaps he meant this: outlaw playing a return pass to a keeper i.e if a keeper passes the back to you, then if pass it immediately back to him, it’s a free. This would put an unfortunate end to the rampaging runs of the Laois keeper, but by and large would achieve the result he’s aiming for, which would be a positive.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sid waddell on November 29, 2018, 06:38:54 PM
The rationale for banning backpasses is simple. The goalkeeper is the "extra man" that allows teams to "keep ball" at the back. Take the goalkeeper out of the equation and "keep ball" becomes much more difficult.

How about this: A goalkeeper can receive a pass (either a kick pass or a hand pass) from a team mate, ie. take it into their hands, but can only receive such outside the 20 metre line.

Any pass they receive inside the 20 metre line, they cannot handle, but can kick without handling, as happens in association football.

It would be easy to police and I can't think of any negative unintended consequences.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Paudi Meehan on November 30, 2018, 10:44:32 AM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1129/1014263-future-of-football/

Different perspective
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Keyser soze on November 30, 2018, 11:24:46 AM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1129/1014263-future-of-football/

Different perspective

A lot of that makes a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on November 30, 2018, 12:23:25 PM
His comment on the four step rule sums up the root cause of a lot of the problems.
I like the bit about getting a load of extra steps "for the indignity if being tackled"
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: shawshank on November 30, 2018, 12:30:49 PM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1129/1014263-future-of-football/

Different perspective

excellent piece, not for the first time Aidan is on the money, high quality analysis.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: From the Bunker on November 30, 2018, 09:32:02 PM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/1129/1014263-future-of-football/

Different perspective

excellent piece, not for the first time Aidan is on the money, high quality analysis.


One of the best pieces of Analysis I've read on the state of the game.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on November 30, 2018, 10:52:02 PM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: From the Bunker on November 30, 2018, 11:08:18 PM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.

Of course we do! But them days are gone! And no amount of rules are going to make this happen unless we ban the hand pass completely!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on November 30, 2018, 11:56:14 PM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.

Of course we do! But them days are gone! And no amount of rules are going to make this happen unless we ban the hand pass completely!

Well we will have to see because the way it's going no one will turn up to watch the rubbish being played
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 01, 2018, 11:48:17 AM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.

Of course we do! .....unless we ban the hand pass completely!
Ah sure we'd only have FOOTball then and seemingly that can't be allowed to hspoen
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 04, 2018, 05:26:11 PM
Brolly on the new handpass rule. He's agen it.

Quote
Joe Brolly: 'A world where Derry never won the All-Ireland is a world I want no part of' (https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/joe-brolly-a-world-where-derry-never-won-the-allireland-is-a-world-i-want-no-part-of-37585440.html)

It is perhaps the most famous goal in the history of Gaelic football. It is July 6, 1991. The third replay of the Leinster Championship match between Meath and Dublin is in injury-time, there are 90 seconds to go, and Meath are trailing by three points, 0-15 to 1-9. The roar from the crowd, transfixed after three epic draws in the previous month, is deafening.

David Beggy wins the ball out near the middle of the field on the left touchline. "It's still possible," says Ger Canning, as Beggy handpasses it to Kevin Foley, racing through from wing-back. (Handpass number 1.)

"Foley to Gillick," says Canning. (Handpass number 2.)

"Gillick to Tommy Dowd." (Handpass number 3.) "A lot of poor marking by Dublin," says Canning as Tommy Dowd tears towards the 21 and the decibel level ratchets up. Dowd gives it to Colm O'Rourke (handpass number 4), changes direction slightly and takes the return pass from O'Rourke. (Handpass number 5.)

Dowd races along the 14-yard line, wrong-footing the Dublin defenders, and handpasses it to Foley who had continued his support run and is now only a few yards from goal. (Handpass number 6). Kevin Foley has never before this moment scored a goal in his long Meath career. He hits the net. The stadium seems to jump, or maybe it is the camera man. Ger Canning's voice breaks and ends in a high-pitched squeal as he roars (long before Victor Meldrew had ever thought of it), "I don't believe it." Meath win the kick-out, and David Beggy puts it over the bar. The referee blows the whistle. Meath have won. The Dubs sink to their knees, not quite believing what has happened.

As of January, when the three handpass rule comes in, that goal would be disallowed. That Meath crew was one of the great long-kicking teams. I played against them for Trinity once in a not-so-friendly friendly and we were like dogs chasing aeroplanes as the ball was skimmed from box to box with great accuracy. But like all great teams, handpassing was part of their armoury. With Dublin swamping the scoring area and only 90 seconds to go, they would never have created this brilliant goal otherwise.

Or what about arguably the greatest goal ever scored in a club championship game? You remember it: Corofin's second goal against Nemo Rangers in last year's All-Ireland club final was perhaps the most sublime goal ever seen at HQ.

With little or no space to work in, and no opportunity for a foot pass, a bewildering sequence of six perfect handpasses sucked in the Nemo defenders and like a great conjuror's trick, Martin Farragher was suddenly clean through on goal, picking his spot in the traditional Corofin manner and ending the game.

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––


Corofin are another superb kicking team. Against Ballintubber in the Connacht final last Sunday, they gave an overwhelming exhibition of attacking football in the third quarter, scoring 1-8 from 11 shots, and overall, ending with a typical spread of different scorers (nine). Their philosophy as a club is that every player ought to be two-footed by the age of 16. Yet when it comes to it, they can use the handpass to engineer great scores. Crucially, when they encounter a team playing a blanket defence (Ballintubber for example dropped very deep and played with two sweepers in the scoring zone), their high skill levels allow them to adapt.

The handpass rule comes about after a sort of aul lads' discussion about the state of the game in the pub.

"It's handpassing that is ruining the game lads."

"You're dead right, it should be called hand-ball."

"Sure the Dubs are the worst offenders."

"These boys can't even kick the ball any more" etc etc.

The problem is that the problem has been wrongly diagnosed. As a frustrated member of the rules committee said to me last week: "They have diagnosed the symptom, not the illness."

The illness is of course the zonal defence/blanket defence/sweeper system. Robbed of the capability to break through the defensive zone with clever handpassing, carefully timed runs, and expert shooting, the rule has the perverse effect of making it even easier for the blanket defending team.

Let us take Monaghan's breakthrough goal against Tyrone in this year's Ulster Championship: Tyrone have 13 men inside their own '45. Vinny Corey streaks down the left flank of the Tyrone zone, takes a handpass and gives a handpass. Monaghan's movement is superb. After five handpasses the zone is penetrated, Corey is put through on goal and finishes expertly to the bottom corner. Sorry lads. That's a free out. Oh well, as Mickey Harte is fond of reminding us, senior inter-county football is not about entertainment.

What about Donegal's superb opening goal against Fermanagh's ultra-defensive system in this year's Ulster final? Sorry chaps. Five handpasses. Free out to the team that has no interest in playing the game.

Let's run through another practical scenario: Dublin win possession. Carlow retreat into their 14-man zone just inside their own 45-metre line. Dublin come forward. Coming through the middle third they can either foot-pass or handpass, but they do not have the option of kick-passing to a forward inside the scoring zone so it must be short passing, whether by the hand or foot. Now they reach the defensive cordon. Instead of several handpasses and clever movement designed to open up that zone and create a scoring opportunity that must be taken quickly before the pack descends, they must now kick-pass sideways and backwards. After three handpasses, they will be forced to kick it either back or laterally since even if a team-mate has broken through in a good position, the ball can only be kicked to him and that is just not possible. Will we be even more bored? Will we be howling in frustration?

Say the fourth handpass would put the forward in on goal? Tough. His team-mate will have to turn, kick-pass it back and start all over again. The new rule (which is doomed to failure) will encourage the blanket defence and make goalscoring virtually impossible.

John McEntee - Armagh's greatest player ever and six-time All-Ireland club winner with the club team that causes the aul' lads on the Rules Committee to weep with nostalgia - thinks the proposal is ridiculous, because it severely limits the attacking team's ability to score goals. That's coming from the greatest player in the greatest kicking team the game has seen.

The philosophy behind the rule is confusing. If it is to return us to the glory days of Gaelic football, then let's pick the Kerry/Dublin golden years as a starting point. We loved that era. Couldn't get enough of it. Yet not only was intricate handpassing at the heart of almost every goal, they could even handpass the ball to the net. When the great Down team of the early '90s put Meath to the sword in the '91 final, they mixed it up beautifully, but the killer goal came after four handpasses. Without that goal, there would have been no Ulster breakthrough.

In the end, the problem with the rule is that it creates a very artificial situation, prevents imaginative interplay and works against the attacking team. If a team is three behind with five minutes to go, how are they going to break through a 14-man zone?

The most important score in the history of Derry football was Johnny McGurk's immortal point to beat the Dubs with the last kick of the game in the 1993 semi-final. That point would have been disallowed (four handpasses in the lead-up), and a free out awarded. A world where Derry never won an All-Ireland is a world I want no part of.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 04, 2018, 08:29:15 PM
I'm going to watch a few of those old goals again...
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on December 05, 2018, 09:04:01 AM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.

Of course we do! .....unless we ban the hand pass completely!
Ah sure we'd only have FOOTball then and seemingly that can't be allowed to hspoen
Handball, rubby,  hurley stuff, mayowestros. Give it a rest.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 05, 2018, 09:14:38 AM
Another lúlá with a humour by pass (hazard a guess from 6 Cos)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 06, 2018, 09:46:21 PM
This is an excellent initiative by the GAA.

Anyone who wants to watch the current game permeated by 75% hand-passes should sign up for Olympic Handball.

We have to try something . The only people against the current rules are

1- Ulster GAA ( they are typically against anything anyway)
2- Inter-county managers of crap team who can pack defences and don't have any players capable of kicking the ball accurately
3- GPA- Never happy about anything unless they instigate the change
4- Sadists

If this doesn't work we need to try something else. Because the current game is only shite to watch
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 06, 2018, 11:01:28 PM
The etymology of "football" has nothing to do with using your foot to kick a ball. It's descended from games that were played by working people "on foot" as opposed to games that were played by nobles on horseback. There are about seven versions of games called football and only one of them predominantly uses the foot to deliver the ball. There's not a whole lot of kicking in Rugby football or American football.

A commonly-held myth about the origin of a word is a strange criterion to be using for designing the rules of a sport. If we were all speaking Irish and referring to the game as "Peile" I doubt if we'd be having this discussion.

In any case I don't see what people have against the handpass. As long as there's a crisp striking action it looks just fine and keeps the game moving. Why do people compare it to Basketball or Handball as if that's a pejorative? Are those sports inferior? Are they boring to watch?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 06, 2018, 11:03:03 PM
Read the first two paragraphs again. Think of football and tbink of hurling and why we are having exciting hurling and bite fests in football. Then like me you might think aidan is talking shite. Yes people do want high fielding and man to man contests in my opinion.

Of course we do! But them days are gone! And no amount of rules are going to make this happen unless we ban the hand pass completely!

Award the mark from a kickout, that'd bring back high fielding.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 07, 2018, 12:23:54 AM
The etymology of "football" has nothing to do with using your foot to kick a ball. It's descended from games that were played by working people "on foot" as opposed to games that were played by nobles on horseback. There are about seven versions of games called football and only one of them predominantly uses the foot to deliver the ball. There's not a whole lot of kicking in Rugby football or American football.

A commonly-held myth about the origin of a word is a strange criterion to be using for designing the rules of a sport. If we were all speaking Irish and referring to the game as "Peile" I doubt if we'd be having this discussion.

In any case I don't see what people have against the handpass. As long as there's a crisp striking action it looks just fine and keeps the game moving. Why do people compare it to Basketball or Handball as if that's a pejorative? Are those sports inferior? Are they boring to watch?

Because Gaelic Football was founded on the transferring of the ball with the foot.

Handball was founded on the transfer of the ball by hand.

The hand-pass in it's current guise has allowed dreadful county teams and equally poor club sides to somehow call themselves football teams by getting  a fitness level , a system , a tackle count and good hand-passing skills. Thus ignoring the fact that neither there club nor their county coaches were ever able to teach their players the basic skill of kicking the ball accurately

I don't want to watch teams like Carlow for example playing Gaelic Football and masquerading themselves as a semi good team playing one forward up front even against teams of their own level like Laois.

How is that what the game was ever meant to be? 75% hand-passing at inter county level was never what the game was envisaged to be .And at club level watching the sort of "Gaelic Football" the Derry championship produced this year wouldn't pass as entertainment even to the parents of the club sides involved.

The game is in crisis. Not every team wants to play like Crossmaglen or Dublin.

But the rules should favour the sides that want to score

Not the other way around.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 07, 2018, 07:23:13 AM
The etymology of "football" has nothing to do with using your foot to kick a ball. It's descended from games that were played by working people "on foot" as opposed to games that were played by nobles on horseback. There are about seven versions of games called football and only one of them predominantly uses the foot to deliver the ball. There's not a whole lot of kicking in Rugby football or American football.

A commonly-held myth about the origin of a word is a strange criterion to be using for designing the rules of a sport. If we were all speaking Irish and referring to the game as "Peile" I doubt if we'd be having this discussion.

In any case I don't see what people have against the handpass. As long as there's a crisp striking action it looks just fine and keeps the game moving. Why do people compare it to Basketball or Handball as if that's a pejorative? Are those sports inferior? Are they boring to watch?

Because Gaelic Football was founded on the transferring of the ball with the foot.

Handball was founded on the transfer of the ball by hand.

The hand-pass in it's current guise has allowed dreadful county teams and equally poor club sides to somehow call themselves football teams by getting  a fitness level , a system , a tackle count and good hand-passing skills. Thus ignoring the fact that neither there club nor their county coaches were ever able to teach their players the basic skill of kicking the ball accurately

I don't want to watch teams like Carlow for example playing Gaelic Football and masquerading themselves as a semi good team playing one forward up front even against teams of their own level like Laois.

How is that what the game was ever meant to be? 75% hand-passing at inter county level was never what the game was envisaged to be .And at club level watching the sort of "Gaelic Football" the Derry championship produced this year wouldn't pass as entertainment even to the parents of the club sides involved.

The game is in crisis. Not every team wants to play like Crossmaglen or Dublin.

But the rules should favour the sides that want to score

Not the other way around.
How many trophies have Carlow won with their football/handball style?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: johnnycool on December 07, 2018, 12:44:37 PM
Did they ban the fisted point yet?

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 07, 2018, 02:18:38 PM
I have to say, while I initially thought the rules were stupid I have changed my tune a bit. Firstly the game is in crisis. It is horrible to watch in 90% of games. The defensive handpassing muck is being transferred from county to every club in the country. My big issue is that like it or not we are in competition for the hearts and minds of kids. Soccer is all razzmatazz of the premier league which is often entertaining. Rugby that our kids see is exciting stuff with Ireland winning big friendlies against big teams. Football is turgid horrible stuff at the moment in most counties. Also, I think our creative skillful players would rather be at home milking the cows rather than play in these boring systems that are being rolled out by coaches.

So we have to try something and we have every right to try something.

The handpass rule is an interesting one. I was thinking about what would I do if I were a coach. Well for one I know that a close in kick pass is not as accurate as a close in hand pass so I would personally push up an extra player or two and try and turn teams over higher up the pitch. The net effect of this would be to leave space in my defence so if a long ball did get out of the opponents defence, there would be a good chance for my opponent to get a score. I can see this rule helping to make football a better spectacle. It may need tweaking but why not try it.

What would sicken a mans hole is to listen to all these people right out objecting to it, as if football is a great sport altogether and we should leave as is. That is real madness.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on December 07, 2018, 03:36:38 PM
I have to say, while I initially thought the rules were stupid I have changed my tune a bit. Firstly the game is in crisis. It is horrible to watch in 90% of games. The defensive handpassing muck is being transferred from county to every club in the country. My big issue is that like it or not we are in competition for the hearts and minds of kids. Soccer is all razzmatazz of the premier league which is often entertaining. Rugby that our kids see is exciting stuff with Ireland winning big friendlies against big teams. Football is turgid horrible stuff at the moment in most counties. Also, I think our creative skillful players would rather be at home milking the cows rather than play in these boring systems that are being rolled out by coaches.

So we have to try something and we have every right to try something.

The handpass rule is an interesting one. I was thinking about what would I do if I were a coach. Well for one I know that a close in kick pass is not as accurate as a close in hand pass so I would personally push up an extra player or two and try and turn teams over higher up the pitch. The net effect of this would be to leave space in my defence so if a long ball did get out of the opponents defence, there would be a good chance for my opponent to get a score. I can see this rule helping to make football a better spectacle. It may need tweaking but why not try it.

What would sicken a mans hole is to listen to all these people right out objecting to it, as if football is a great sport altogether and we should leave as is. That is real madness.

Agree 100% on all your points, and this is coming from someone who ten years ago would get enjoyment out of watching a random game of Gaelic football, over last five years, I truly have gotten so frustrated watching this bullshit hand passing spectacle where players are programmed not to kick the ball, that my personal viewing of gaelic games has dropped off measurably.

lets see how the proposed changes work, cannot believe the negativity before they are even tried.
one thing it hopefully will do is get rid of the "chancer" managers, who sole strategy if to keep possession at all costs, and get a few results to justify their expenses.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on December 10, 2018, 12:22:26 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 10, 2018, 01:25:28 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 10, 2018, 03:12:42 PM
If the first response to anything is "we'll pack our defences".....
How the Hell are we ever to change that mindset?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 11, 2018, 01:33:58 AM
If the first response to anything is "we'll pack our defences".....
How the Hell are we ever to change that mindset?

I don't think there's anything wrong with packing defences, but if we want that to stop, then surely a rule that disallows that, whatever it might look like, is the starting point? 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on December 11, 2018, 07:34:34 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

The thing is, it may lead to a few high scoring games in the league and the GAA PR machine will hail it a success, even though there will probably be as many turgid affairs as before. Even if we do have a temporary boost in scoring or excitement or whatever the feck it is we are after, if the rules become permanent then because we have gaping inequality in the whole system between counties, managers will still try to find a way to make their teams competitive. Ultimately that will be by trying to restrict what the opposition score. These rule changes, alongside no attempt whatsoever to address the fixtures, structures and funding issues, are utterly pointless and amount to nothing more than shifting the chair around on the Titanic.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 11, 2018, 10:44:20 AM
Whatever we want or don't want or would like to see - the new proposals are what  they are.
Let's see what happens in practice and what happens at the CC meeting on January.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 12, 2018, 02:45:38 PM
Was speaking to a few refs the other night at a schools game, and they aint refereeing when the rules change cause they will get torured even more during the games! Will be crazy for a few games thats for sure
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on December 12, 2018, 06:21:04 PM
Was speaking to a few refs the other night at a schools game, and they aint refereeing when the rules change cause they will get torured even more during the games! Will be crazy for a few games thats for sure
Marty Duffy might make a comeback
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 18, 2018, 10:25:39 AM
Are the new rules being implemented in McKenna cup, o Byrne cup and so on? If so how are people finding them early on?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2018, 11:24:44 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/niall-moyna-sounds-the-death-knell-for-gaelic-football-1.3736080?mode=amp
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: rosnarun on December 20, 2018, 12:45:24 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/niall-moyna-sounds-the-death-knell-for-gaelic-football-1.3736080?mode=amp

funny that that story comes out the day Gaelic games over took soccer as numb 1 sport,
those number just don't add up and , and from what ive seen of moyna hes genuine  not just trying to be controversial and sell a book or something
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 21, 2018, 01:36:59 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 21, 2018, 11:06:40 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 21, 2018, 11:54:38 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2018, 12:30:16 PM
I read some reports recently the Kildare are exploiting the new attacking mark by kicking everything to a flying Jimmy Hyland who's marking and kicking points for fun.
Mightn't find it so easy in Summer though.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 21, 2018, 03:02:11 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

In a perfect world but do you really see intercounty mentality changing....I still think at the end of the day, most teams will still go defensive, contain and prevent to opposition from scoring over high press and leaving yourself vulnerable to a break at the back if you fail to turn over
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 21, 2018, 03:04:21 PM
I read some reports recently the Kildare are exploiting the new attacking mark by kicking everything to a flying Jimmy Hyland who's marking and kicking points for fun.
Mightn't find it so easy in Summer though.

Heard from a few games the mark is effective but it's almost too effective in that its too much a game of frees now where people are happier to try a free kick that keeping the ball moving and game flowing. I've not seen a game with the new rules yet so can't fully comment but that's what I've heard.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: twohands!!! on December 21, 2018, 04:41:46 PM
I read some reports recently the Kildare are exploiting the new attacking mark by kicking everything to a flying Jimmy Hyland who's marking and kicking points for fun.
Mightn't find it so easy in Summer though.

Heard from a few games the mark is effective but it's almost too effective in that its too much a game of frees now where people are happier to try a free kick that keeping the ball moving and game flowing. I've not seen a game with the new rules yet so can't fully comment but that's what I've heard.

Just had a quick look at the scores from the 2018 O'Bryne Cup group stages compared to 2019 O'Bryne Cup group stages.

Under the old rules a total of 33-322 was scored in 14 games -  a total of 431 points for an average of 30.78 ppg

In the 8 group games played so far for 2019, a total of 12-163 was scored - a total of 199 for an average of 24.875 ppg

It's not the biggest sample size but 6 points less per game mean that at this stage the rules look to be headed towards failure.




Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Cunny Funt on December 21, 2018, 06:04:39 PM
I read some reports recently the Kildare are exploiting the new attacking mark by kicking everything to a flying Jimmy Hyland who's marking and kicking points for fun.
Mightn't find it so easy in Summer though.

Heard from a few games the mark is effective but it's almost too effective in that its too much a game of frees now where people are happier to try a free kick that keeping the ball moving and game flowing. I've not seen a game with the new rules yet so can't fully comment but that's what I've heard.

Just had a quick look at the scores from the 2018 O'Bryne Cup group stages compared to 2019 O'Bryne Cup group stages.

Under the old rules a total of 33-322 was scored in 14 games -  a total of 431 points for an average of 30.78 ppg

In the 8 group games played so far for 2019, a total of 12-163 was scored - a total of 199 for an average of 24.875 ppg

It's not the biggest sample size but 6 points less per game mean that at this stage the rules look to be headed towards failure.

Any chance of the experimental hand pass rule getting scrapped before the commencement of the NFL?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 22, 2018, 12:24:41 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 22, 2018, 12:40:26 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on December 22, 2018, 12:58:22 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

Only 4 years ago Carlow finished last in Div 4 so the progress they have made shouldn't be underestimated now. If they manage to stay up in Div 3 next year they will see that as further progress and i'd agree county amalgamations is a total non runner.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 22, 2018, 01:33:44 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on December 22, 2018, 12:20:34 PM
It appears that increasingly the argument seems to be that, as Jim puts it, "nobody wants to watch this crap", even though that's not the case.

But for those that don't want to watch the game as it is currently (however that is, as each game differs), what is it that you want to see? And who in the GAA decided what it is that we all want to see.

These new rules could be a major breakthrough and the game could changed beyond all expectations for the better. My own view is that they're a terrible attempt and I don't agree that we "needed to do something" if this is the something. I'd much prefer the game how it is now compared to how I perceive it will be under the new rules.

I think the sin bin should've been in when the black card was first tried and find it amusing that they must be now reluctantly adopting it. In the absence of the clock being stopped though, it will lose its effectiveness.

I was open-minded on the mark but having read Paul Broderick's assessment of it my initial fears might be right; a whole lot of low balls in towards the 20m followed by loads of close range frees. A good blanket will stop that.

The sideline ball is too irrelevant to even discuss and the handpass one, although it could have any amount of unintended consequences, I don't see any that ultimately will be positive.

Looking forward to the championship though ;D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on December 22, 2018, 01:07:44 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 22, 2018, 03:19:27 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 23, 2018, 09:26:15 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then

Fantastic comment. You really showed me. If only I knew as much about football as you, I can only dream.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 23, 2018, 09:45:05 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then

Fantastic comment. You really showed me. If only I knew as much about football as you, I can only dream.

I gave a reply on the last page why I think it won't happen as you hope for the vast majority of teams....it's similar to Dublins brilliant, effective tactic of keep ball at the end of games, it look horrible but even last 5 mins losing teams who needed to get the ball back were afraid to push up and lose structure...I can't see that changing and structure will still outweigh the opportunity of a turnover.....I think anyway
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 23, 2018, 10:32:00 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then

Fantastic comment. You really showed me. If only I knew as much about football as you, I can only dream.

I gave a reply on the last page why I think it won't happen as you hope for the vast majority of teams....it's similar to Dublins brilliant, effective tactic of keep ball at the end of games, it look horrible but even last 5 mins losing teams who needed to get the ball back were afraid to push up and lose structure...I can't see that changing and structure will still outweigh the opportunity of a turnover.....I think anyway

I disagree. It's relatively easy to maintain possession using handpasses even when under pressure. A kick pass under pressure is more likely to go astray in my opinion so I think some coaches will opt to push up harder, dispossesing the opposition close to their own goals. The big problem is the coach guru who try make football sound more complicated than it really is. They don't like change. In fact have you ever seen a sport where change is resisted so much.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on December 25, 2018, 11:58:49 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.

You're entitled to your view but 13 a side is a cop out to defensive gurus

There is no need to reduce the numbers whatsoever with a proper rules structure that rewards teams that want to go forward with the ball as oppose to backwards.

There is no game more resistant to rule changes then Gaelic Football.

As it's permeated by defensive gurus who have made careers in turning the game into the shite it resembles now
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 26, 2018, 12:21:02 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.

You're entitled to your view but 13 a side is a cop out to defensive gurus

There is no need to reduce the numbers whatsoever with a proper rules structure that rewards teams that want to go forward with the ball as oppose to backwards.

There is no game more resistant to rule changes then Gaelic Football.

As it's permeated by defensive gurus who have made careers in turning the game into the shite it resembles now

agreed but from my very little lack of involvement but major interest and spectating ive thought long and hard and im yet to come up with a way to counter the blanket defense and yes i think in the chicken or the egg argument the blanket defense came first and the handpassing problem is a product of this and i am worried we arent tackling the right thing. Like everyone, i would much rather a much more open and free flowing game
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on December 26, 2018, 03:17:27 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.

You're entitled to your view but 13 a side is a cop out to defensive gurus

There is no need to reduce the numbers whatsoever with a proper rules structure that rewards teams that want to go forward with the ball as oppose to backwards.

There is no game more resistant to rule changes then Gaelic Football.

As it's permeated by defensive gurus who have made careers in turning the game into the shite it resembles now

Totally agree, you could even substitute "chancers" for defensive gurus
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: sligoman2 on December 27, 2018, 05:57:55 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.

You're entitled to your view but 13 a side is a cop out to defensive gurus

There is no need to reduce the numbers whatsoever with a proper rules structure that rewards teams that want to go forward with the ball as oppose to backwards.

There is no game more resistant to rule changes then Gaelic Football.

As it's permeated by defensive gurus who have made careers in turning the game into the shite it resembles now

Totally agree, you could even substitute "chancers" for defensive gurus

The last post must have been the longest in history - now I have the record😴😴😴😴😴😴.
Happy new year in advance to all.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on December 29, 2018, 02:27:57 AM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.



It's crazy, I can confirm I'm not from Ulster, a saddist, manager or whoever else is against it apparently. It's funny to see some of these sweeping statements when it's clear no thought to the concequesnces of these. I've put out there multiple times in detail why I think these won't work so won't again. Like you I feel this will only encourage and reward the mass defence mentality and tactic. One of the worst things though, this is being trialed in the league and we've no idea how it will go, league is too important to try these out in.

If these turn out to be a huge success and we get great games I will be the 1st to hold my hands up and say I was wrong

Well at least they are trying . Unfortunately up North they don;t want to try anything that might improve the game as a spectacle.

This conversation is required as the game has become redundant as a spectator sport.

This may not be the answer but at least we are having the debate.

For me a rule should be brought in that you must have 6 players in the opposition half of the field at all times. People say it's not enforceable . It is as the linesmen are perfectly placed to see it and do largely f*** all anyway except run up the line

Bring it at county level first where the manpower is . Club football largely apes the county game anyway

Trying yes but my fear is they only looked at this in a way that is positive and failed to consider the negative impacts and it's the negative impacts I think will make these rules a massive failure.

On keeping 6 in each half of the pitch, it's not enforcement I would be against, it's the stopping of the attacking wingbacks being allowed come forward and stopping of defenders joining the attack. It would I'm sure make for a more open game but I still feel the likes of carlow, fermanagh etc who have had recent success based on a solid defensive structure I would like to see these teams still be able implement these

I've put forward all of my opinions on why I would love to see 13 a side trialled (And not in a competition as important as the league) so I won't go through it all again

I respect your opinion but 13 a side is insane. Anything that reduces the numbers starting  a game will only reduce the participation numbers which is pointless in my opinion .

Carlow played one forward and got lucky in one game. They in my opinion are not something that should be held up as a reason for teams playing 13 behind the ball .

They were muck to watch. It was like watching a herd of cows rolling in  a field somewhere.

The bottom line is they played a Division 4 team in Croke Park using 13 men behind the ball and were beaten comfortably by a team beaten by 20 points in a Leinster Final by Dublin

If that's progress then I'm all for these new rules

It's time for amalgamations at county level and an emphasis on getting people to watch the game again.

did you read my earlier posts on why i believe 13 a side should be trialed? to call 13 a side insane and then say your all for these new rules i think shows theres not much talking with you.  Carlow got promoted, had some great results by their traditional standards, we cannot compare them to dublin or the other top teams. most teams now league is priority and championship is bonus. and as for amalgamations please god no, i would despise supporting a tipp/waterford/kilkenny/wexford south east team.....i want to support tipperary and tipperary alone for better or worse, the same with all the splitting dublin in half, i would hate to see it

You're only interested in your own opinion. The fact that it's a fundamentally flawed opinion is besides the point.

Carlow are not anything to be copied or applauded for in my opinion. They played a rancid style of football and got lucky in one game against a team that kicked a huge amount of wides

Bar one team they beat teams at their own level. Which is why a tiered championship is required. 

Nobody wants to watch this crap - you do realise that don't you? 13 a side is only a cop out to the defensive gurus who rule the game now

I'm only interested in my opinion? Yes I have an opinion and I voice it in as fair a manner as I can and I think most people on here would see me as a fair and balanced contributor. You are new to the board, one of your 1st posts you make a big sweeping statement that anyone who disagrees with these rules are from Ulster, defensive intercounty manager, gpa or sadist. I have said numerous times I will hold my hands up and admit I am wrong and will be happy if the game improves.

On carlow, I agree with you and said it here myself that until kildare they beat no-one of note and kildare was a freak result where they scored from 100% of their attempts. But still them and fermanagh without being disrespectful have had great relative success, both earned promotion and fermanagh a place in the Ulster final, I despise the style of football but I fully respect it and for me the new rules will most likely only encourage and reward this style of play. I will apologise to everyone now for recycling my old posts but I will put them up again on the rules and 13 a side....and yeah these are only my opinions just like how everyone has an opinion here

............

This was posted a couple of hours after the announcement and something's have changed



My view on each one of these is that you have to look at the most negative aspects of each proposal over the positive. Im not saying these will happen but there is the chance and you can be sure given time to see things in action managers will be coming up for specific ways of playing them. These are my thoughts anyway, may have picked up some wrong things, may have contradicted myself in some of what im saying and most importantly i might be wrong in my thoughts. Every situation needs to be fully thought through before making any radical changes


3 handpasses

Will this turn into a game of rugby league where one team gets so far turns, kicks it back and start over again. Remember we are where we are because teams are overly cautious and dont want to concede possession so i dont think because we limit the handpass teams will all of a sudden start a long range expansive kicking style. Also Dublin who are far and away ahead of everyone, it wouldnt be long before they use this in a way to create turnover, when the ball is in the defending teams half stand off for couple of passes then a huge push on the kickpass.

Sidelines must go forward

Is this really a huge problem? nearly all sideline go back to secure possession and start an attack from there. I can just see this being more of an advantage to the team conceding the sideline than the team who has won it. The defending team will carry on as they do nowdays and attempt to cut out any forward ball and can leave anyone behind the sideline free (reason most sidelines do go back is because this is where the free player is). Also if i was a defender id be trilled to knock a ball out for a sideline around the 21 as a way of defense, gives you time to get organised and you know there is a very small area of the pitch which can be used or youd have a player attempting shots from sidelines which youd take all day long.

Mark inside the 20

Good in theory but will it just lead to inside forwards being double marked and opposition players coming up with a way to combat the threat? This one could work but its one I would like to see in action and see if it is positive or not

Sin Bin

Personal opinion on this, do we really need black cards, sin bins etc? For me leave it at yellow and red cards. A yellow card would suffice for many of the black cards dished out these days, the likes of the infamous sean cavanagh against monaghan rugby tackle, allow a ref to deem that a red card and not be tied down to having to give a yellow due to the rules. If something is gamechanging cynicism then allow a red for it, the likes of checking a run should be a yellow for me.

2 players each only between the 45s for kickouts

Does there need to be two players designated? At what phase of the kickout do these players need to be identified? If you manage to isolate someone who is really quick on your own kickout with a big slower midfielder with all that space it would be as effective as a short kickout, pull your two players to one sideline middle of the field will have to be open, keeper kicks it there and youd back your players to get there 9 times out of 10. Gone would be the days of quick kickouts and the game would be alot more broken up, take fermangh for example, play a very defensive way, each kickout youd have to wait for everyone who was back sweeping to throd up the pitch and back into the opposition half before the ball is kicked, I can see the merit in this because at each restart you are facing into 6 defenders and not a mass defense but dublin against carlow, carlow would get annihilated with how athletic and physical they are, carlow kick out the ball, dublin win it and its 1 v 1 all in the carlow half, most teams would get eaten alive

....................

And my post on 13 a side

I've said it before and I stress I'm not saying I am right but 13 a side. Trialled at sigerson, preseason before thinking about bringing it into league and championship. Positives I think there are are

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players.

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp and is imagine your own roscommons starting teams would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench.

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

Honestly I can't think of many negatives but like I said it would need to be trialled and see how games do play out and if anything springs up then.

You're entitled to your view but 13 a side is a cop out to defensive gurus

There is no need to reduce the numbers whatsoever with a proper rules structure that rewards teams that want to go forward with the ball as oppose to backwards.

There is no game more resistant to rule changes then Gaelic Football.

As it's permeated by defensive gurus who have made careers in turning the game into the shite it resembles now

Totally agree, you could even substitute "chancers" for defensive gurus

The last post must have been the longest in history - now I have the record😴😴😴😴😴😴.
Happy new year in advance to all.

No you don’t 😁
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Catch and Kick on December 29, 2018, 06:47:06 PM
Westmeath and Offaly played out a 0-10 each draw today.
If football was considered to be in a bad place before these rules, it is in a ten times worse place now.

Both teams guilty of ridiculous turn overs, both teams engaging is 5 metres kick passes, at least 2 35 metre kick passes back to goal keepers.

Both teams flooding back on sideline kicks.

Both teams counting others hand passes and calling 3 when on 2 to influence referee into making a wrong call.

Still baffled that the 'tackle' is as vague as ever. Some times the player in possession blown for over carrying when being tackled by 3 players 'hammering him..other times free for him, and yet many more times where frees are given for incidental contact........

This is mad stuff.............
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on December 30, 2018, 05:19:57 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2018, 07:19:15 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.

They def need tweaking. I think when you enter oppositions 45 there shouldn't  be a limit on hand passes. Unfortunately Down sat back in ultra defensive formation even when cavan had a man sin binned. It might take time for these idiot coaches to see the error of their ways. The sideline kick forward is really dumb and should be scrapped. I think the ref forgot about the offensive Mark in 1st half!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 30, 2018, 08:37:29 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.

They def need tweaking. I think when you enter oppositions 45 there should begin limit on hand passes. Unfortunately Down sat back in ultra defensive formation even when cavan had a man sin binned. It might take time for these idiot coaches to see the error of their ways. The sideline kick forward is really dumb and should be scrapped. I think the ref forgot about the offensive Mark in 1st half!

I am the complete opposite, i think inside the opposition 45 the limit should begin, this is where handpassing is effective in breaking down a defense, outside the 45 going side to side is where it should be limited for me
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on December 30, 2018, 08:39:00 PM
Also Cavan had a player in sin bin for 13 minutes.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2018, 08:47:47 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.

They def need tweaking. I think when you enter oppositions 45 there should begin limit on hand passes. Unfortunately Down sat back in ultra defensive formation even when cavan had a man sin binned. It might take time for these idiot coaches to see the error of their ways. The sideline kick forward is really dumb and should be scrapped. I think the ref forgot about the offensive Mark in 1st half!

I am the complete opposite, i think inside the opposition 45 the limit should begin, this is where handpassing is effective in breaking down a defense, outside the 45 going side to side is where it should be limited for me

Sorry, bloody predictive text. I was trying to say the same as you.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on December 30, 2018, 10:13:02 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.

They def need tweaking. I think when you enter oppositions 45 there should begin limit on hand passes. Unfortunately Down sat back in ultra defensive formation even when cavan had a man sin binned. It might take time for these idiot coaches to see the error of their ways. The sideline kick forward is really dumb and should be scrapped. I think the ref forgot about the offensive Mark in 1st half!

I am the complete opposite, i think inside the opposition 45 the limit should begin, this is where handpassing is effective in breaking down a defense, outside the 45 going side to side is where it should be limited for me

Sorry, bloody predictive text. I was trying to say the same as you.

haha i have no idea what we think, i made a bollix of my reply 1st.....anyway, i think no limit in opposition 45 and a limit outside the 45 and back. I still havent seen the rules 1st hand so i am still speculating
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 30, 2018, 10:46:14 PM
Having seeing rules first hand today you're denying goal chances and benefiting the full back line.

They def need tweaking. I think when you enter oppositions 45 there should begin limit on hand passes. Unfortunately Down sat back in ultra defensive formation even when cavan had a man sin binned. It might take time for these idiot coaches to see the error of their ways. The sideline kick forward is really dumb and should be scrapped. I think the ref forgot about the offensive Mark in 1st half!

I am the complete opposite, i think inside the opposition 45 the limit should begin, this is where handpassing is effective in breaking down a defense, outside the 45 going side to side is where it should be limited for me

Sorry, bloody predictive text. I was trying to say the same as you.

haha i have no idea what we think, i made a bollix of my reply 1st.....anyway, i think no limit in opposition 45 and a limit outside the 45 and back. I still havent seen the rules 1st hand so i am still speculating

That's it!!

All fouls today in Cavan v down were in the attacking half of the field.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on December 31, 2018, 02:05:41 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then

Fantastic comment. You really showed me. If only I knew as much about football as you, I can only dream.

What do you think now Brains?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on December 31, 2018, 02:44:15 PM

Is it not apparent to everyone that none of these proposals - least of all the handpass restriction - are going to discourage packing defences? Quite the opposite.

Nope. I think 3 handpass rule, while a bit crude, will encourage teams to push up on the opposition and force them into a mistake.

You haven't a clue then

Fantastic comment. You really showed me. If only I knew as much about football as you, I can only dream.

What do you think now Brains?

Well I wrote what I thought above blindboy. However I won't be doing a 180 degree based on one McKenna cup game
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 06, 2019, 03:46:50 PM
All the talk on these new rules, one i would love to see come in happened in the mayo leitrim game today and that for the game to be decided on penalties. 45s and 65s seemed very anticlimactic last year when used, penalties at least add alot more drama to things and give a chance for a keeper to be the hero instead of player taking a 45 to be the villain
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Cunny Funt on January 06, 2019, 03:59:25 PM
All the talk on these new rules, one i would love to see come in happened in the mayo leitrim game today and that for the game to be decided on penalties. 45s and 65s seemed very anticlimactic last year when used, penalties at least add alot more drama to things and give a chance for a keeper to be the hero instead of player taking a 45 to be the villain

Would it not be better to have extra time before penalties though?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 06, 2019, 04:06:15 PM
All the talk on these new rules, one i would love to see come in happened in the mayo leitrim game today and that for the game to be decided on penalties. 45s and 65s seemed very anticlimactic last year when used, penalties at least add alot more drama to things and give a chance for a keeper to be the hero instead of player taking a 45 to be the villain

Would it not be better to have extra time before penalties though?

yes.....i just am comparing 45s to penalties as a form of getting a result on the day. Yeah, 2 periods of 10 mins extra time for me, get rid of the 2nd 5 min periods they have
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on January 06, 2019, 05:46:08 PM
I have to say I like Brolly's ideas

- no pass back into your own half
- Goalkeeper cannot be used in open play
- the idea of an exclusion zone ( very difficult to implement at club level)
- kickouts past the 45metre  line

Worth a trial in my view
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 06, 2019, 06:11:45 PM
So when did a penalty shoot out get added to the rules? I thoight it free taking competition?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LooseCannon on January 06, 2019, 06:19:53 PM
I have to say I like Brolly's ideas

- no pass back into your own half
- Goalkeeper cannot be used in open play
- the idea of an exclusion zone ( very difficult to implement at club level)
- kickouts past the 45metre  line

Worth a trial in my view
I have to say, I love your username.







Not really
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 06, 2019, 07:11:46 PM
So when did a penalty shoot out get added to the rules? I thoight it free taking competition?
Ye Cyaavan bucks need to keep up to date😉
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: themac_23 on January 06, 2019, 07:28:17 PM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 06, 2019, 07:45:55 PM
People need to see sense and abandon this shit show that are these new rules. Brought in to appease the out of touch yesterday men on RTÉ. The GAA should not be bowing down to the media elites and their anti football agenda.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Joe Mc Nallys Ballsack on January 06, 2019, 07:48:33 PM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 06, 2019, 07:58:46 PM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

I'd look to tweak hand pass rule, only applies inside your own half. Side line make no difference, in or out. The offensive Mark I'd leave in.

Too many of these so called coaches whinging as their robotic training is under threat. Football is in a mess and action is needed.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 06, 2019, 08:11:39 PM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.

Have you figures handy?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on January 07, 2019, 08:43:41 AM
I have to say I like Brolly's ideas

- no pass back into your own half
- Goalkeeper cannot be used in open play
- the idea of an exclusion zone ( very difficult to implement at club level)
- kickouts past the 45metre  line

Worth a trial in my view
No 1 could work, it would be worth a trial.
No 2 similar but it would eliminate the Rory Beggans of the world going forward to support the attack as they could not receive a return pass.
No 3 could not work at club level and I am not sure it would work at any level. If a defender slips or pulls a hamstring does his man get a free run at goal?
No 4 Joe proposed before and after a bit of fanfare and a challenge game in Monaghan quietly dropped it. Allowing only 4 men between the 45s will not lead to 1960s style high fielding contests. It will lead to keepers chipping the ball out into the chest of running mid-fielders. No 50:50 contests just guaranteed possession for the kicking team.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 10:29:59 AM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.

Which of the new rules actually improve the game?

You are happy enough to follow the opinion of TV pundits to change the playing rules , but not that of managers involved in the game??
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 10:44:09 AM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.

Which of the new rules actually improve the game?

You are happy enough to follow the opinion of TV pundits to change the playing rules , but not that of managers involved in the game??

You don't think many managers have a vested interest in resisting change? Harte for example has opposed every single rule change for years. How to you account for this? Also, which TV pundits were on the rule change committee? On Brollys last article he claimed one of the people on the committee told him that his ideas would have been better coming from someone other than Joe himself, is that then not the opposite of what you are saying.

Bonner is crying about them as his game plan is to sit deep and break at high speed and restricting hand passes curtails him doing this - thats good! I contend a lot of this complaining is fear of the unknown and maybe an insecurity of their own abilities as coaches to be innovative to the new rules. I am not saying the rules are perfect, I see a few flaws in them already myself but I work of the principle of change and then adjust instead of talking and talking and talking about what should and could be done because you know what you will never get agreement from Mickey Harte and Poacher and all these "gurus" to any change.

People need to relax and give it a bloody chance.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 10:46:54 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: themac_23 on January 07, 2019, 10:53:55 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

Exactly, it doesn’t, it actively encourages it, as you know if you mark the space that at some stage they’re gonna have to kick the ball therefore giving a chance for an interception. Surely that’s quite obvious, the hand pass rule 100% favours the defending team.

Was listening to talk sport this morning and big Sam was on and he made a good point regards soccer at the minute, he said everyone thinks there’s only one way to play and that’s the Man City Liverpool way.he said it was dangerous in that you need to play to your strengths, the problem with Gaelic football is that everyone took the Jim mcguiness Donegal model which took at the time an unfancied team to all Ireland. I think it takes different styles, like soccer it’ll go full circle, we can’t just change rules because we want football played a certain way, managers will always set their game plan to utilise their players to the rules
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 07, 2019, 10:59:49 AM
I have to say I like Brolly's ideas

- no pass back into your own half
- Goalkeeper cannot be used in open play
- the idea of an exclusion zone ( very difficult to implement at club level)
- kickouts past the 45metre  line

Worth a trial in my view
No 1 could work, it would be worth a trial.
No 2 similar but it would eliminate the Rory Beggans of the world going forward to support the attack as they could not receive a return pass.
No 3 could not work at club level and I am not sure it would work at any level. If a defender slips or pulls a hamstring does his man get a free run at goal?
No 4 Joe proposed before and after a bit of fanfare and a challenge game in Monaghan quietly dropped it. Allowing only 4 men between the 45s will not lead to 1960s style high fielding contests. It will lead to keepers chipping the ball out into the chest of running mid-fielders. No 50:50 contests just guaranteed possession for the kicking team.

The kicking past the 45 what's not in place now or a different variation?

I honestly don't see any problem with the keeper getting a ball in open play...look at the laois keeper last year and how many touches in open play do keepers actually have, I never saw it as a negative tactic, just a safe one.

The no backwards passing in your own half, please no....too Many marginal call on sideways passes to be made and i don't see possession in your own half as a problem, teams don't mess around with the ball in their own half, they try work space and try create an opportunity to get up the pitch... it's when you cross the halfway line and meet the blanket defence it gets bad to watch.

Exclusion zone, not sure what this entails but I don't like restrictions being put on players
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:04:21 AM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?
Exactly
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:10:25 AM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.

Which of the new rules actually improve the game?

You are happy enough to follow the opinion of TV pundits to change the playing rules , but not that of managers involved in the game??

You don't think many managers have a vested interest in resisting change? Harte for example has opposed every single rule change for years. How to you account for this? Also, which TV pundits were on the rule change committee? On Brollys last article he claimed one of the people on the committee told him that his ideas would have been better coming from someone other than Joe himself, is that then not the opposite of what you are saying.

Bonner is crying about them as his game plan is to sit deep and break at high speed and restricting hand passes curtails him doing this - thats good! I contend a lot of this complaining is fear of the unknown and maybe an insecurity of their own abilities as coaches to be innovative to the new rules. I am not saying the rules are perfect, I see a few flaws in them already myself but I work of the principle of change and then adjust instead of talking and talking and talking about what should and could be done because you know what you will never get agreement from Mickey Harte and Poacher and all these "gurus" to any change.

People need to relax and give it a bloody chance.

If you think that players and managers that are currently involved in the game shouldnt be consulted on rule changes , then i really don't know  :-[

It was glaringly obvious from the start that the restricted handpass rule was never going to work and cause more issues than it solves.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 07, 2019, 11:10:31 AM
surely these rules will get canned before the league, no way can they plough on with them

It' too easy for the naysayers to shoot down every proposal then so

The current state of the game has seriously reduced attendances .

Crap teams put 13 men behind the ball . Win  a few games and then call themselves football teams. Of course they don't want to change.

Some of the players on these teams might have to try to kick the ball sometime

These may not be the answer but at least it's a start to moving towards some rules that actually improve the game

there is no point in using the opinion of current intercounty managers to change the game .... that's just hilarious.

Which of the new rules actually improve the game?

You are happy enough to follow the opinion of TV pundits to change the playing rules , but not that of managers involved in the game??

You don't think many managers have a vested interest in resisting change? Harte for example has opposed every single rule change for years. How to you account for this? Also, which TV pundits were on the rule change committee? On Brollys last article he claimed one of the people on the committee told him that his ideas would have been better coming from someone other than Joe himself, is that then not the opposite of what you are saying.

Bonner is crying about them as his game plan is to sit deep and break at high speed and restricting hand passes curtails him doing this - thats good! I contend a lot of this complaining is fear of the unknown and maybe an insecurity of their own abilities as coaches to be innovative to the new rules. I am not saying the rules are perfect, I see a few flaws in them already myself but I work of the principle of change and then adjust instead of talking and talking and talking about what should and could be done because you know what you will never get agreement from Mickey Harte and Poacher and all these "gurus" to any change.

People need to relax and give it a bloody chance.

I think we need to split the rules into 2.
1. The 3 handpass rule
2. The rest

For me, having seen 2 games, the handpass rule is a complete non-runner . From a defensive point of view the game hasn't changed. For  periods of the Fermanagh Derry game yesterday, teams had all men back. The only difference is men are kicking the ball 5/10/15 yards when they would have handpassed the ball prior to this trial period. From a spectator's point of view, instead of watching the game and seeing the play build, watching runners etc, you're spending the entire game counting fecking handpasses. You can hear the crowd, 1, 2, 3.....KICK IT! You've players who are running into position, breaking away from their marker and not knowing what number of handpasses have been played, didn't hear the shout and makes the 4th handpass. Opposition players screaming 4 passes. In both games to date, excellent link play between forwards and link players is being blown up as they break through due to the 4th handpass. It's an absolute balls


No amount of relaxing and giving it a bloody chance will change this imo. It's just too much of a seismic change in the game for me

The rest: I'd like to see more of the offensive mark and I'd back the sinbin 100%
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on January 07, 2019, 11:19:40 AM
OK I have updated my opinion, 1 of 4 of Brollys suggestions would have no negative impact on the game.

I have to say I like Brolly's ideas

- no pass back into your own half
- Goalkeeper cannot be used in open play
- the idea of an exclusion zone ( very difficult to implement at club level)
- kickouts past the 45metre  line

Worth a trial in my view
No 1 could work, it would be worth a trial.
No 2 similar but it would eliminate the Rory Beggans of the world going forward to support the attack as they could not receive a return pass.
No 3 could not work at club level and I am not sure it would work at any level. If a defender slips or pulls a hamstring does his man get a free run at goal?
No 4 Joe proposed before and after a bit of fanfare and a challenge game in Monaghan quietly dropped it. Allowing only 4 men between the 45s will not lead to 1960s style high fielding contests. It will lead to keepers chipping the ball out into the chest of running mid-fielders. No 50:50 contests just guaranteed possession for the kicking team.

The kicking past the 45 what's not in place now or a different variation?  Brolly wanted everyone outside the 45's except the 4 mid-fielders.

I honestly don't see any problem with the keeper getting a ball in open play...look at the laois keeper last year and how many touches in open play do keepers actually have, I never saw it as a negative tactic, just a safe one. It is a negative step in terms of the development of the keepers role but it could potentially reduce the extra man teams would have to hold possession.

The no backwards passing in your own half, please no....too Many marginal call on sideways passes to be made and i don't see possession in your own half as a problem, teams don't mess around with the ball in their own half, they try work space and try create an opportunity to get up the pitch... it's when you cross the halfway line and meet the blanket defence it gets bad to watch. I have thought some more about this. IT would actually be worse than what we have (should have known with Joe's in depth analysis). The defensive team would know that any players sitting back were out of the game and it would make it easier to saturate their own defensicve area. There would be no incentive to keep players forward to put pressure on the free man or keeper at the back.

Exclusion zone, not sure what this entails but I don't like restrictions being put on players. Again more Joe bollixology.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:22:42 AM
Im not a fan of the offensive mark, but happy to see it trailed and see how it works in reality.
The black card has bee a disaster since introduced, so happy to see the sin bin  change to it and see how that plays out.
I agree about the restricted handpass. A complete non runner from the start.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 11:55:54 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on January 07, 2019, 11:57:47 AM
Am I correct in saying that brolly's idea of no pass back into your own half is the same rule as basketball? If so, it's one of the worst rule change proposals I've heard of. Teams would just defend from the halfway and then swarm the player as he crosses the halfway line.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on January 07, 2019, 11:58:29 AM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Enforcing the steps rule would be a great starting point tbf
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: bigpackiechestout on January 07, 2019, 12:01:34 PM
After watching the Tyrone v Ulster University game yesterday my thoughts on the handpass rule are as follows. The intention behind the rule is presumably to discourage the slow build up play and to encourage teams to leave more forwards in position. Yesterday we saw that this did not happen. Instead both teams set out as they otherwise would have, except that when building the play up around the 45s they kicked more shorter passes where they would previously have handpassed, in order to save their handpasses for when they were needed. You also had instances of lads turning around and kicking backwards or sideways when an attack was building nicely, simply because the 3 handpass limit was reached, the opposition had extra men behind the ball so no kickpass was on, and the player in possession was afraid of being caught.

Therefore the rule has resulted in more inconsequential kicking around the middle third in order to meet the requirements of the rule, but hasn't encouraged teams to launch more ball into the full forward line (why would they) or keep more men up the pitch, as per the spirit of the rule.

This could have been easily predicted before the rule was ever trialed. I have no qualms about writing this rule off at this early stage and hope the trial does not continue into the League.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 07, 2019, 12:08:12 PM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.

Agree with you in regards to this being a possible solution and spoke a number of times why I feel there are multiple positive outcomes from it. Most rules being proposed here and officially are trying to encourage kicking but doing nothing to tackle the bigger problem of no space for attackers and packed defences....I don't want to see kicking for pickings sake, a return to get the ball and kick it as long and blindly as posible will make for a truly awful spectacle in my opinion. More space should equal more quality kicking I feel
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:17:26 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 12:23:49 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 07, 2019, 12:40:39 PM
Will all the whining and whinging by managers make delegates more determined to press ahead with the proposed changes? :-\
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trueblue1234 on January 07, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.

Are the managers not allowed to voice their opinion on the rules the same as everyone else? If they think they are sh!te, surely they are entitled to say that. Doesn't mean they have to be listened to but I wouldn't expect them to lie about what they thought of them either.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 01:42:45 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.

Are the managers not allowed to voice their opinion on the rules the same as everyone else? If they think they are sh!te, surely they are entitled to say that. Doesn't mean they have to be listened to but I wouldn't expect them to lie about what they thought of them either.

They are I suppose but would it not be nice to hear them say "I dont think they will work but I will work with them and lets see how it pans out" Instead we have them lining up to moan after 1 or 2 games having made no attempt in most cases to innovate within those rules.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 07, 2019, 01:46:30 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.

It's Bonner and Harte's game as much as it is anyone elses. I've yet to speak to a single person during a game or not who agrees it's a good idea. Fair enough, against the vast majority you've went rogue, but you're sailing in a fairly small ship. BTW, have you seen Donegal play of late?   
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:46:58 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 01:51:48 PM
I also think Bonner and Harte etc would rather moan and whinge about the rules, get them thrown out now instead of actually sitting down and seeing how they would make them work for their team. Of all teams I think Donegal could do really well if they pushed up hard on the opposition.

Are the managers not allowed to voice their opinion on the rules the same as everyone else? If they think they are sh!te, surely they are entitled to say that. Doesn't mean they have to be listened to but I wouldn't expect them to lie about what they thought of them either.

They are I suppose but would it not be nice to hear them say "I dont think they will work but I will work with them and lets see how it pans out" Instead we have them lining up to moan after 1 or 2 games having made no attempt in most cases to innovate within those rules.

The handpass rule is a brain dead experiment that obviously wouldn't pass the simplest examination as a prospective improvement on the aesthetics of the game. People have said that from the outset and are not likely to change their mind seeing it in all it's practical glory. Managers are interviewed regularly and reporters ask them direct questions - should they tell lies to not hurt the feelings of the amadans that came up with it?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 02:11:59 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 02:24:56 PM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they’ll be dropping out anyway. They’ll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they’ll go to a sport where they’re getting more enjoyment.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 07, 2019, 02:29:50 PM
Asking managers about rule changes... I remember harte’s column where all rules that would have a detrimental affect on how his team played were poo-pooed weekly in the Irish news. Managers are only out for themselves, obviously. I wouldn’t ask any of them.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 07, 2019, 02:31:44 PM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they’ll be dropping out anyway. They’ll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they’ll go to a sport where they’re getting more enjoyment.

The majority of players are dropping out due to the commitment levels required these days, even in junior. Don't think I've met a man who's left the sport due to swarmed defences. And for what it's worth, I'd be an advocate of the 13 aside game (trialled of course)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JP on January 07, 2019, 02:36:19 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

He was explaining why we won't see teams push up. They are crowding their own attacking space making it difficult for them to score while also leaving their defenders vulnerable in one on one situations. A team pushing up would have to work harder for their scores compared to the counter attacking team.

The rule promotes conversative play from both teams.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 07, 2019, 02:37:02 PM
Possession football is boring. Ball retention, no risk strategies, sideways/backwards football are boring the shite out of us all. More kicking into forwards is needed. More skilful forwards is needed. Players won’t kick ball to forwards as there’s no room. What we need is more room.

The solution, as I’ve said many times = less players.

It’s a no brainer.
I agree with you there, it just needs addressed the right way.
My big reservation about reducing team size is that the negative affect it would have in participation, particularly at youth level.

For me, you have to consider why so many managers bring extra defenders back, and the reason is that a 1v1 battle has become next to impossible to win for a defender.
black/yellow/red cards are now so easy to come by, that the defenders also take a now risk strategy when it comes to making a tackle or trying to win the ball. We then have players getting away regularly with 7/8 )( and sometimes more) steps, that making a clean challenge becomes very very difficult.
By gradually leaning the rules towards the forwards over the last number of years in an attempt to promote attacking high scoring football, what we have done is the complete opposite.
Managers now feel like they cant depend on a man marker, so bring additional men back, leading to the type of game we now see.

Yes but unless we give players more space to thrive, particularly the skilful forwards/playmakers, they’ll be dropping out anyway. They’ll go to a sport where their skills/playmaking is able to flourish. Not only that, but they’ll go to a sport where they’re getting more enjoyment.

The majority of players are dropping out due to the commitment levels required these days, even in junior. Don't think I've met a man who's left the sport due to swarmed defences. And for what it's worth, I'd be an advocate of the 13 aside game (trialled of course)
I'm certainly not against trailing it, and it may actually help with clubs fielding teams at underage/ reserve level where they struggle for numbers.
I'm not convinced its the silver bullet for all the games ills, but its a lot better proposal than restricting the fecking hand pass and most of the other nonsense proposed.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: outinfront on January 07, 2019, 02:52:41 PM
What team sports aren't about ball retention?  I can't think of a game that I have played from primary school upwards where the focus hasn't been on keeping the ball away from the opposition.  Maybe dodgeball is the exception! Teams in all sports drop back as a unit to defend and press forward having turned ball over. Barcelona, Man City and the likes pass backwards/sidewards/forwards and strike when the time is right!  They also play out from the back on most occasions.  They aren't boring imo. I know it's a different sport but the goal is ultimately the same.  Win by scoring more (and conceding less).

There is so much tinkering with the rules and lots of it doesn't work.

I like the sin bin ideas for black cards.
I'm not opposed to this idea of not passing back into your own half (basketball style)
Offensive marks I'm not sure on
Hand pass rule is a load of crap.

Just my thoughts.
If you can dodge a wrench...
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 07, 2019, 03:06:39 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

 ;D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 03:49:33 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

He was explaining why we won't see teams push up. They are crowding their own attacking space making it difficult for them to score while also leaving their defenders vulnerable in one on one situations. A team pushing up would have to work harder for their scores compared to the counter attacking team.

The rule promotes conversative play from both teams.

I think after 2 McKenna cup games it is hard to say whether the rule would entice teams to push up. Its about risk vrs reward, and whether you believe putting the kick into the handpass mix will reduce your risk of pressing higher. My guess is that it will. I see Cavan are trying to push up anyway. I think if the rules are kept for league then more teams will go that road. Most teams right now are only getting going so have not probably spent a lot of time on deciding how they will play. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: LeoMc on January 07, 2019, 04:35:04 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 07, 2019, 04:46:33 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Yes, you leave your defense more vulnerable but it is risk versus reward, if you are successful you might score a lot too and the game might be better to watch.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 07, 2019, 05:35:58 PM
47 goals last year in first two rounds of McKenna cup. 24 this year and that includes 6 for Armagh v Marys.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 07, 2019, 05:46:19 PM
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 07, 2019, 06:06:46 PM

Okay, one step at a time I guess... explain how the handpass rule discourages Donegal from "sitting deep"?

It does not discourage teams from sitting back but it should encourage teams to push up on the opposition which i suppose is the same thing. This is only my opinion and coincidentally, in the Cavan McKenna cup game yesterday it came to pass. Cavan decided to aggressively push up on Queens when they came out, when you throw a kick into the mix it forced queens to kick the ball under pressure and with a kick over say 20 meters being inherently less accurate than a 2 yard handpass, Cavan were able to turn over possession higher up he field and get a number of easier scores. Cavan did try the same against Down but had less success but I put that down to the team developing this style of play and not being particularly efficient in it. In short Cavans new manager is innovating while Down manager in particular is stuck in a rut trying to mimic Jim McGuinness's winning formula from a decade ago.

Now I have stated that I have seen a lot of teams foul the ball when in an attacking position which i think is wrong, so I would tweak the rule to say once you enter the opposition half or 45 (whichever makes more sense) there is no counting of handpasses.

2nd example. If a player gets a mark for catching the ball clean in the oppositions 45, surely it makes sense to push up and put pressure on the kicker as well as to mark tight and put pressure on the receiver?

I'd really love to see that tweak to the hand pass rule implemented before the league, especially to stop eejits showing videos of "great" goals that would be disallowed in todays game.

What is it about the experimental rules that you think make it advantageous to "push up" (Pep style)? If your answer is that a 4th handpass in a row being a foul will put players under pressure* you are even further discredited in this discussion (if that's possible).
If teams press up into their forward line to win the ball back (which is not a new concept) they are leaving man on man scenarios in their own half of the field and crowding their own attacking space.
* If you think teams will be under pressure because of the handpass restriction you obviously haven't been to any games yet - they just turn and kick it back to the keeper then start again.

1st bold - I've already answered this question
2nd bold - Exactly.

Glad to have helped you understand.

So you think teams will push up to leave their own defence vulnerable?

Although I'm not in favour of restricting the hand pass as I don't think it's the best way to address the ills of the game I'm with Itchy in giving it time to evolve. As he said, you won't see massive changes in the first 2 or 3 pre-season games teams play, especially when they don't know if they'll ever play under those rules again. However, I do see how the three hand pass restriction can encourage less packed defences which is the real problem.


If you drop everyone back inside your 45 and turnover the opposition on the top of the D but have only three hand passes before needing to kick teams may decide it's not worth getting everyone back. If my team got turned over on the oppositions D I could well see how we would look to push up on the opposition knowing that they can't run the ball out as easily as they could now.


I see no reason why pushing up would expose your own defence. If your opponents just left one or two players up you can easily mark them from in front as long as the defenders are fairly quick, which all counties and most clubs would have.



The current experimental rules may not be the best way forward but I haven't heard any suggestion that doesn't have flaws so why not give these time? Mind you, I think experimental rules should never be used in league or championship until they've been trialled for at least two years at other levels. Rule changes will not be given time at senior IC level to full demonstrate whether they work or not.
 

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: hardstation on January 07, 2019, 06:59:21 PM
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 07, 2019, 07:31:11 PM
They should be banned for life and tattooed with Union Jacks.
It could be the end of the GAA as we know it.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Esmarelda on January 07, 2019, 07:36:34 PM
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Franko on January 08, 2019, 08:06:45 AM
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on January 08, 2019, 09:28:10 AM
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?

I think the 3 handpass rule could suit Dublin and Mayo.
When opposition are on second/third handpass, they'll be vulnerable, high press, force turnover, then swarm forward. Might leave some gaps at the back if there's another turnover, but Dubs and Mayo have confidence in their backs to deal with opposition 1 v 1.  Although frankly, its unlikely most opposition would leave enough men forward to make it 1 v 1.

It won't instantly help negate mass defence tactics, and it might get worse before it gets better, but hopefully it won't belong before most teams realise they have to be more attacking to get results
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 08, 2019, 10:44:33 AM
On the whole pushing up to force the opposition to kick after three hand passes, what do people foresee will happen next? If the team on the ball kick the ball away after being panicked to do so, would it not be the case that they (the team that just gave up possession) would have plenty back and the team who just won possession would have a blanket in front of them?

If they won it back close to goal to get a quick score, is that idea? Dispossess them close to their own goal and quickly score? Is it entertainment or high scores that some think will come from this scenario? I can see why a team wanting to win would do so, but as a spectator, would that be entertaining?

I think the 3 handpass rule could suit Dublin and Mayo.
When opposition are on second/third handpass, they'll be vulnerable, high press, force turnover, then swarm forward. Might leave some gaps at the back if there's another turnover, but Dubs and Mayo have confidence in their backs to deal with opposition 1 v 1.  Although frankly, its unlikely most opposition would leave enough men forward to make it 1 v 1.

It won't instantly help negate mass defence tactics, and it might get worse before it gets better, but hopefully it won't belong before most teams realise they have to be more attacking to get results

That's exactly how I see it, might take time for some coaches to realise it as they are so ingrained in copy catting the Jim McGuinness template. That said, they will probably succeed in getting the whole thing binned and we will be back to square 1.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 08, 2019, 11:24:55 AM
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.
I agree 100%
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Dubhaltach on January 08, 2019, 06:25:19 PM
I haven't read a lot the last few pages but anted to pop in and say that anyone; A) Advocating for these rule changes, or B) Advocating for any other rule changes, are the Enemy of GAA, Gaelic Football and Irish past times in general. They are the anti christ.
+1
Making a dogs dinner of the whole thing.

Agreed.  Said it before but I'll repeat.  I think this is pretty simple.

1.Enforce the 4 steps rule properly
2.Don't blow a free for every bit of incidental contact with the ball carrier

Encourages people to tackle the ball carrier and makes it more difficult to hold possession.  Watch the game open up.
I agree 100%

So true. How the powers that be can't see this is beyond me. As long as refs consistently give the benefit of the doubt to the man in possession, we will continue to see blanket defences. No amount of flawed handpass rules will change this.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 09, 2019, 08:15:13 AM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 09, 2019, 09:52:21 AM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2019, 10:02:11 AM
Telling that the rule most complain about is the anti throwball one.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trueblue1234 on January 09, 2019, 10:16:52 AM
Telling that the rule most complain about is the anti throwball one.

True, The person who came up with it should be shot with a ball of their own sh!te.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 09, 2019, 10:25:23 AM
Telling that the rule most complain about is the anti throwball one.

And maybe that's because from 99% of people who've seen these in action say the game as a spectacle is far worse because of this rule. Some people think handpasssing is the problem and anything no matter how bad will be better and that handpasssing is only a product of the major problem and not the problem itself
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2019, 11:31:27 AM
Maybe kicking the ball is the problem so and needs to be fully eradicated 😀.
Anyway none of the trial rules do anything to restore the contests for possession that makes hurling such an exciting spectacle.
Maybe if "marks" had to be an overhead catch instead of a kick to a lads chest?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 09, 2019, 11:39:57 AM
Maybe kicking the ball is the problem so and needs to be fully eradicated 😀.
Anyway none of the trial rules do anything to restore the contests for possession that makes hurling such an exciting spectacle.
Maybe if "marks" had to be an overhead catch instead of a kick to a lads chest?

could you crouch, kneel, or even lay down on your back (head tilted up like your 15% into a sit up) with hands up over your head ?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 09, 2019, 12:08:17 PM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules

No thats not the point, the point is that maybe not all managers are against them. I still don't think it should be their decision as they have a vested interest.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 09, 2019, 12:25:56 PM
Why is it in other sports there isnt anywhere near this much resistance to rule change. I remember when soccer changed the offside rule (not interfering with play), one which was a huge change in the game there was no where near this amount of complaining. What is it with GAA that means every change is resisted and constant negatives thrown out instead of just getting on with it?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 09, 2019, 12:36:04 PM
Maybe kicking the ball is the problem so and needs to be fully eradicated 😀.
Anyway none of the trial rules do anything to restore the contests for possession that makes hurling such an exciting spectacle.
Maybe if "marks" had to be an overhead catch instead of a kick to a lads chest?

could you crouch, kneel, or even lay down on your back (head tilted up like your 15% into a sit up) with hands up over your head ?
???
When I was younger I could jump and catch a high ball over me headeen.
Mind you I couldn't do much with it after that ;D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 09, 2019, 01:13:01 PM
Why is it in other sports there isnt anywhere near this much resistance to rule change. I remember when soccer changed the offside rule (not interfering with play), one which was a huge change in the game there was no where near this amount of complaining. What is it with GAA that means every change is resisted and constant negatives thrown out instead of just getting on with it?

Because they take a sensible approach. They know what they're doing. In the GAA they are bowing to media pressure, media types who only goal is to enhance their profile and do not have any interest in the betterment of the game. The hand pass rule being a good example of this ill thought out attempt at attempting to placate the media mob. 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on January 09, 2019, 01:26:39 PM
I’m thinking it might worth the GAA’s while creating an endowment scheme with one of our leading football universities.

In return for say €100k per annum, the university would host 6-8 evenings during the winter, where players would be briefed and drilled in potential rule changes, then play full games with one or more potential rule changes implemented, then players and coaches and assessors would complete research pieces about their feelings afterwards.

Each rule trial would enjoy its own short paper which ultimately outlines if the rule change would be considered a) unwelcome and unsuccessful, b) unwelcome but successful, c) welcome but unsuccessful, d) welcome and successful.

Anything in category a) is then ruled out for at least 3 years. Anything in category b) would need to improve to either c) or a d) within 2 further trials, or face a similar fate.


And no longer our county game the guinea pig.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 09, 2019, 01:51:31 PM
Why is it in other sports there isnt anywhere near this much resistance to rule change. I remember when soccer changed the offside rule (not interfering with play), one which was a huge change in the game there was no where near this amount of complaining. What is it with GAA that means every change is resisted and constant negatives thrown out instead of just getting on with it?

Because they take a sensible approach. They know what they're doing. In the GAA they are bowing to media pressure, media types who only goal is to enhance their profile and do not have any interest in the betterment of the game. The hand pass rule being a good example of this ill thought out attempt at attempting to placate the media mob.

And you know that do you?

Have you ever said a positive thing in your life trailer, I dont recall reading one on here.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 09, 2019, 02:47:26 PM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules

No thats not the point, the point is that maybe not all managers are against them. I still don't think it should be their decision as they have a vested interest.

Surely we all have a vested interest in our sport?

To just discount managers opinions is completely ridiculous.
Certainly they have to be balanced alongside players / supporters etc, but they have a valuable input to give.
They will be the ones devising game plans to fully exploit or nullify the effects of any rule change so their views are key in getting something workable
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 09, 2019, 03:30:01 PM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules

No thats not the point, the point is that maybe not all managers are against them. I still don't think it should be their decision as they have a vested interest.

Surely we all have a vested interest in our sport?

To just discount managers opinions is completely ridiculous.
Certainly they have to be balanced alongside players / supporters etc, but they have a valuable input to give.
They will be the ones devising game plans to fully exploit or nullify the effects of any rule change so their views are key in getting something workable

I am not getting paid for results in the GAA while managers are. The majority of them are concerned that the new rules will put their game plans back and are not overly concerned with the state of the game for the supporter. Thats what I think and god help me Martin Brehony agrees with me...

Beware of the propaganda war
We are being openly bombarded by claims that limiting the handpass to three as part of the experimental rules is reducing goal chances.

Tales of flowing moves taking players into goal-scoring areas, only to be thwarted by not being allowed a fourth or fifth handpass are being peddled so loudly that those of a suspicious disposition might get the whiff of collusion.

After all, if the new rules can be portrayed as evil goal-killers, it will greatly strengthen the case for those who want them scrapped before the start of the Allianz League.

Hopefully, the transparent stunt will be seen for what it really is: an attempt to spark a panic reaction based on a small number of games with below-strength teams.

If the handpass experiment is to be meaningful, it must be retained for the 116-match league programme, after which a fully informed  analysis of its impact can be made. This is no time to bow to managers and their vested interests.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 09, 2019, 03:47:51 PM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules

No thats not the point, the point is that maybe not all managers are against them. I still don't think it should be their decision as they have a vested interest.

Surely we all have a vested interest in our sport?

To just discount managers opinions is completely ridiculous.
Certainly they have to be balanced alongside players / supporters etc, but they have a valuable input to give.
They will be the ones devising game plans to fully exploit or nullify the effects of any rule change so their views are key in getting something workable

I am not getting paid for results in the GAA while managers are. The majority of them are concerned that the new rules will put their game plans back and are not overly concerned with the state of the game for the supporter. Thats what I think and god help me Martin Brehony agrees with me...

Beware of the propaganda war
We are being openly bombarded by claims that limiting the handpass to three as part of the experimental rules is reducing goal chances.

Tales of flowing moves taking players into goal-scoring areas, only to be thwarted by not being allowed a fourth or fifth handpass are being peddled so loudly that those of a suspicious disposition might get the whiff of collusion.

After all, if the new rules can be portrayed as evil goal-killers, it will greatly strengthen the case for those who want them scrapped before the start of the Allianz League.

Hopefully, the transparent stunt will be seen for what it really is: an attempt to spark a panic reaction based on a small number of games with below-strength teams.

If the handpass experiment is to be meaningful, it must be retained for the 116-match league programme, after which a fully informed  analysis of its impact can be made. This is no time to bow to managers and their vested interests.

Eh?! The media, propaganda, inter county managers ! The bit in bold, it's the ordinary everyday supporter on here making up his or her mind on what they have seen to date, you know thinking for themselves. The 3 handpass rule is a complete an utter hames. There is not a hope in hell of it being retained for the league.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 09, 2019, 05:04:02 PM
Why is it in other sports there isnt anywhere near this much resistance to rule change. I remember when soccer changed the offside rule (not interfering with play), one which was a huge change in the game there was no where near this amount of complaining. What is it with GAA that means every change is resisted and constant negatives thrown out instead of just getting on with it?

Because they take a sensible approach. They know what they're doing. In the GAA they are bowing to media pressure, media types who only goal is to enhance their profile and do not have any interest in the betterment of the game. The hand pass rule being a good example of this ill thought out attempt at attempting to placate the media mob.

And you know that do you?

Have you ever said a positive thing in your life trailer, I dont recall reading one on here.

I'm positive that anyone who thinks these rules are a good idea is the f**king anti christ.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: themac_23 on January 09, 2019, 05:56:31 PM
Not every manager is shouting against trying the new rules..

https://hoganstand.com/Article/Index/294047

Limerick football manager Billy Lee believes the proposed rule changes “deserve a chance”.

While most other managers seem to be slamming the latest collection of experimental rules, Lee offered some support following his side’s McGrath Cup semi-final defeat to Cork:

“I think they are worth looking at. I know a lot of people are anti these experimental rules, but it depends on the style of football your team play. If you play a running game, you are going to be against them,” he told The Irish Examiner.

“Against Cork, we didn’t see any black cards. The kick-out is only being taken seven metres further out and how many sideline kicks would you normally have in a game? The three-handpass rule, I’ve no problem with that.

“These rules deserve a chance. At least we are trying to improve the quality of the product. Every manager is going to worry about his own county and that’s absolutely right. I haven’t heard the referees giving out about anything and yet I see a lot of people talking about referees. Let’s see how the rules unfold over a period of time.”

Managers opinions shouldn't be considered*


*except those that agree with the new rules

No thats not the point, the point is that maybe not all managers are against them. I still don't think it should be their decision as they have a vested interest.

Surely we all have a vested interest in our sport?

To just discount managers opinions is completely ridiculous.
Certainly they have to be balanced alongside players / supporters etc, but they have a valuable input to give.
They will be the ones devising game plans to fully exploit or nullify the effects of any rule change so their views are key in getting something workable

I am not getting paid for results in the GAA while managers are. The majority of them are concerned that the new rules will put their game plans back and are not overly concerned with the state of the game for the supporter. Thats what I think and god help me Martin Brehony agrees with me...

Beware of the propaganda war
We are being openly bombarded by claims that limiting the handpass to three as part of the experimental rules is reducing goal chances.

Tales of flowing moves taking players into goal-scoring areas, only to be thwarted by not being allowed a fourth or fifth handpass are being peddled so loudly that those of a suspicious disposition might get the whiff of collusion.

After all, if the new rules can be portrayed as evil goal-killers, it will greatly strengthen the case for those who want them scrapped before the start of the Allianz League.

Hopefully, the transparent stunt will be seen for what it really is: an attempt to spark a panic reaction based on a small number of games with below-strength teams.

If the handpass experiment is to be meaningful, it must be retained for the 116-match league programme, after which a fully informed  analysis of its impact can be made. This is no time to bow to managers and their vested interests.

Eh?! The media, propaganda, inter county managers ! The bit in bold, it's the ordinary everyday supporter on here making up his or her mind on what they have seen to date, you know thinking for themselves. The 3 handpass rule is a complete an utter hames. There is not a hope in hell of it being retained for the league.

we hope thats the case, the way things are going i wouldnt be surprised
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: criostlinn on January 09, 2019, 09:36:44 PM
I find find it gas that managers like Rory Gallagher, Paddy Tally and Stephen Poacher are the ones so vocal about this,  and what is there complaint, wait for it. It is cutting out goal chances. Ya couldn't make this shit up. Managers who spend all preseason devising systems which results in all players behind the ball with the basic instruction to try and stop the other team scoring are complaining because a new rule stops the opposition team scoring.  Something don't add up. What is it they say. Doth protest too much
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Throw ball on January 09, 2019, 11:33:33 PM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on January 09, 2019, 11:41:34 PM
I find find it gas that managers like Rory Gallagher, Paddy Tally and Stephen Poacher are the ones so vocal about this,  and what is there complaint, wait for it. It is cutting out goal chances. Ya couldn't make this shit up. Managers who spend all preseason devising systems which results in all players behind the ball with the basic instruction to try and stop the other team scoring are complaining because a new rule stops the opposition team scoring.  Something don't add up. What is it they say. Doth protest too much

James Horan has been vocal also. Has called the new rules 'crazy'
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 10, 2019, 08:23:56 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 10, 2019, 09:05:03 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.
 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 10, 2019, 09:21:34 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 10, 2019, 10:08:19 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

is this not what alot of people what to bring us back to?
Sure at least there is no sweepers
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 10, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

The Amish have beards, not no moustaches  :P
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 10, 2019, 11:04:15 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

The Amish have beards, not no moustaches  :P

You are right, there was a motion to bring in mustaches last year and it was defeated as Mickey Harte and Rory Gallagher hate them.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 10, 2019, 11:54:10 AM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

The Amish have beards, not no moustaches  :P

You are right, there was a motion to bring in mustaches last year and it was defeated as Mickey Harte and Rory Gallagher hate them.
That probably explains this then.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/tyrone/mickey-harte-loses-two-of-tyrone-backroom-lieutenants-30489204.html
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: johnnycool on January 10, 2019, 01:01:08 PM
Playing rules aside I think that the sin bin has to be a given and even do away with the black card altogether as it was only ever a sop to gurning managers when the sin bin was first mooted.

Yellow card offence, off you pop there big lad.

Losing a lad for 10 minutes is a much bigger punishment on the team than having to replace someone for the rest of the game.

The attacking mark won't have the necessary effect until teams furnish themselves with big target men and there's only a handful of them about with fast, mobile players the preference these last number of years.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 10, 2019, 01:35:24 PM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

The Amish have beards, not no moustaches  :P

You are right, there was a motion to bring in mustaches last year and it was defeated as Mickey Harte and Rory Gallagher hate them.
That probably explains this then.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/tyrone/mickey-harte-loses-two-of-tyrone-backroom-lieutenants-30489204.html

QED
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on January 10, 2019, 02:02:28 PM
Had my first look at the new rules in a properly competitive match tonight in Armagh. The kick out and sideline didn't seem much different and I don't think there was an offensive mark. The sin bin may be easier on the player black carded but the team does suffer a bigger punishment. Sadly I am going to have to go with majority and say if the 3 hand pass rule makes it into a championship match in future referees lives are going to get even tougher. Cassidy missed a couple of 4 hand passes and on one of these Armagh scored a point - and they only won by a point. Imagine the controversy if that happened in a big championship game.

Like I said earlier, I would support the dropping of counting handpasses in the opposition half which would stop a lot of the controversy on scores.

If a 4th hand pass is made backwards from the opposition half into your half does that count?
I just think its unworkable. Furthermore the GAA know it is unworkable. What they have done (rather cleverly) is to trial this rule to show up the lack of intelligence of people calling for this and other rule changes, thereby hopefully silencing this vocal minuscule minority of part time, bandwagon fans for a generation.

There is a community in the US known as the Amish. They too are stuck in the past and resist change at all costs. You should check it out and see if you can join. I believe they are playing 30 a side GAA matches which run across multiple meadows in the different parishes. They also use the game for a bit of faction fighting which is the main attraction in truth. There are never more than 3 scores in a game. The ball weighs 3 stone and everybody has a mustache and a cap.

The Amish have beards, not no moustaches  :P

You are right, there was a motion to bring in mustaches last year and it was defeated as Mickey Harte and Rory Gallagher hate them.

don't they all wear Black and white, it would be like watching Sligo play every weekend.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: dec on January 11, 2019, 02:14:57 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/we-wont-tell-central-council-how-to-vote-insists-rules-chief-37701338.html

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Ringfort on January 13, 2019, 10:08:58 PM
I was extremely sceptical about the new rules but based on the Ros Sligo game today I feel they might be worth persevering with. The main rule out of them all is the 3 hand passes. It is actually forcing a fundamental change away from the possession/recycling style that's evolved over the last few years. You could see lads today consciously avoiding making that second and third hand pass in case it landed your teammate in trouble. There was much more foot passing on display, admittedly much of it short and safe but I'd prefer that to the looping around the 45 popping hand passes x infinity we've become accustomed to. There were plenty of turnovers and I felt it exciting to watch that if 2 hand passes were made you were acutely aware that the next pass choice was critical - putting a man in possession after 3 hand passes puts him in dodgy territory, thus there was more ambitious balls kicked inside and definitely more lads taking riskier shots rather than fisting it out again to "hold possession".

Even the maligned sideline kick forward might be a positive. Sligo got one in near the 21. They had no option but to go for the point, it landed in around the small square and there was a bit of a scramble to get it clear. That's better for both teams and sets of spectators than a kick back to the 45 and another round of looping runs and fist passes across in front of the blanket.

I'd be inclined to give all this a chance based on,admittedly , only one viewing.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: giveballaghback on January 13, 2019, 11:22:55 PM
I was extremely sceptical about the new rules but based on the Ros Sligo game today I feel they might be worth persevering with. The main rule out of them all is the 3 hand passes. It is actually forcing a fundamental change away from the possession/recycling style that's evolved over the last few years. You could see lads today consciously avoiding making that second and third hand pass in case it landed your teammate in trouble. There was much more foot passing on display, admittedly much of it short and safe but I'd prefer that to the looping around the 45 popping hand passes x infinity we've become accustomed to. There were plenty of turnovers and I felt it exciting to watch that if 2 hand passes were made you were acutely aware that the next pass choice was critical - putting a man in possession after 3 hand passes puts him in dodgy territory, thus there was more ambitious balls kicked inside and definitely more lads taking riskier shots rather than fisting it out again to "hold possession".

Even the maligned sideline kick forward might be a positive. Sligo got one in near the 21. They had no option but to go for the point, it landed in around the small square and there was a bit of a scramble to get it clear. That's better for both teams and sets of spectators than a kick back to the 45 and another round of looping runs and fist passes across in front of the blanket.

I'd be inclined to give all this a chance based on,admittedly , only one viewing.
Agree with all of that ringfort plus the forward mark gives options for some long deliveries, managers against it are the ones who have systems in place and im sure these changes will change the way the game is currently being played. Yes there will be mistakes made by officials while they are being bedded in but I think they will improve the game and maybe skilful footballers may get a chance to play a bit again.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cornerback on January 14, 2019, 10:36:22 AM
https://twitter.com/BMG_11/status/1084734505070534656

Derry blown up for 1 handpass in a row!! Is that even a thing!!??  And also, 2 handpasses in a row.

Tyrone twice got away with 4 handpasses in a row - both resulting in scores.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2019, 10:52:52 AM
Agree with ringfort and Ballagh.
Positive sort of experience yesterday - except we have no midfield.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Redhand Santa on January 14, 2019, 11:04:30 AM
I don't know how anyone thinks the 3 handpass rule will improve the game. It penalises the attacking team trying to break down the blanket defence. It makes it even more rewarding to have loads of men back as you know after the third pass you can bottle the player up. And even if the player gets the kick pass away it inevitably goes backwards outside the 50 to where someone is free. I could see some merit in the rule out the pitch but handpasses are one of the few ways you can work your way through a blanket defence. Teams are also trying to do the kickpassing out the pitch and are only doing safe passes so it's not exactly encouraging the long ball in.

I've seen numerous good attacking plays broken down because of the 4th pass being blown up when a kick wasn't on. It's also an added pressure on referees who will make mistakes try to count so many things.

The other rules I would be less concerned with. Particularly the kick out one which I think should be trialled.

 I do worry there will be controversy over whether the ball has travelled the right distance for an attacking mark. It will also lead to more men back trying to avoid teams getting easy scores from them.

Personally if you want to open up the game a bit I think the only way is to go 13 a side and have a rule about having to keep so many players up the pitch. It might still be hard to police at club level but none of the other rules are easy either. It would create a lot more space and open the game up a bit.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on January 14, 2019, 11:22:29 AM
I think the 3 hand pass rule will have to go because it is too hard to enforce for referees.  Having seen my first game under the new rules yesterday it's nearly impossible for a ref to keep track of it.

regardless of whether it is a good idea in theory or not, I think it'll have to go.

The other 4 rules had minimal effect yesterday, but I think the attacking mark will actually lead to more teams dropping men back to play in front of the big target men.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: oakleaflad on January 14, 2019, 12:08:16 PM
https://twitter.com/BMG_11/status/1084734505070534656

Derry blown up for 1 handpass in a row!! Is that even a thing!!??  And also, 2 handpasses in a row.

Tyrone twice got away with 4 handpasses in a row - both resulting in scores.
Clear evidence as to why that rule should be done away with and asap at that. Makes the refs job even harder and if county refs had bother with it then i'm sure club refs would have the same issues.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 14, 2019, 12:17:47 PM
If there are people who see a net long term positive effect on either the aesthetics or playing enjoyment of limiting the chained number of handpasses then, for me, they should be disqualified from meaningful discussion about how we actually take a serious look at evolving the game. Essentially those that came up with it and those who support it should be patted on the head and told to sit in the stand.

Similarly the forward sideline contributes nothing positive but there are more and more people saying sure what harm just to say something conciliatory against a morbid handpass discussion backdrop.

The kick out experiment really changes nothing but it highlights the lack of foresight of the Rules crew. They had a "radical" vision for the kick out, were told to wise up and came back with two separate versions before simply moving where keepers kick the ball from to save face in maintaining the facade that they still had a kick out rule experiment. Alarm bells should have been ringing early based on this alone.

Personally i'd be happy that the Sin bin is a better solution to BC offenses (which need reviewed) and that there is a version of the offensive mark that can help the game. Carefully reviewed versions of these and the kick out position change should be trialed during Higher Education and Colleges leagues in the autumn.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Ringfort on January 14, 2019, 01:35:35 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 14, 2019, 01:40:40 PM
If there are people who see a net long term positive effect on either the aesthetics or playing enjoyment of limiting the chained number of handpasses then, for me, they should be disqualified from meaningful discussion about how we actually take a serious look at evolving the game. Essentially those that came up with it and those who support it should be patted on the head and told to sit in the stand.

Similarly the forward sideline contributes nothing positive but there are more and more people saying sure what harm just to say something conciliatory against a morbid handpass discussion backdrop.

The kick out experiment really changes nothing but it highlights the lack of foresight of the Rules crew. They had a "radical" vision for the kick out, were told to wise up and came back with two separate versions before simply moving where keepers kick the ball from to save face in maintaining the facade that they still had a kick out rule experiment. Alarm bells should have been ringing early based on this alone.

Personally i'd be happy that the Sin bin is a better solution to BC offenses (which need reviewed) and that there is a version of the offensive mark that can help the game. Carefully reviewed versions of these and the kick out position change should be trialed during Higher Education and Colleges leagues in the autumn.

Great idea, disqualify anyone from discussion who doesn't agree with you.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 14, 2019, 01:52:26 PM

Just extrapolating your position that anyone who coaches or manages should be disqualified - more logical to remove those certifiably unable to think logically. For the good of the game of course.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 14, 2019, 01:52:46 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜

Now...are we talking 9 counties or 6 counties here?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: oakleaflad on January 14, 2019, 02:27:58 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜

Now...are we talking 9 counties or 6 counties here?
Talking out their arse is what they're doing
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 14, 2019, 02:38:50 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xonkqJt19dM

If you go to 39:07 you will hear John O'Mahony talking about the Mick O'Dwyer managed Kildare team playing a blanket defense in 1998.  Bit ironic that most people assume Pat Spillane invented the term in 2003 when giving out about northern teams.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2019, 04:18:38 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜
Hear hear!!!
Wonderful game of Connacht football in the Hyde yesterday.
The Ulster stuff could be called "NO!ball"😁
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 14, 2019, 06:01:46 PM
As opinionated and outspoken as I've been about the new rules I've yet to see them in the flesh.

On the advanced mark, how is it determined if it's a mark or advantage and attacker plays on? If an attacker catches the ball on the 22 in front of goal and a defender tackles him almost instantly can the attacker just stop and say it's a mark? For kickouts the game pauses and you are not allowed touch the person who takes the mark, that obviously can't happen for the offensive one.

Finding it hard to put down here but it's just a few scenarios I can picture where I'm not sure how it will work out and basically asking so far how it's been reffed in regards to when is it a mark, when is it play on, I presume it's purely down to the player to call a mark and basically has there been any issues and how is this playing out.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 14, 2019, 06:27:41 PM
One positive change I'd like to see is a traditional Irish split in the GAA. Let the Ulster teams who favour the current set up carry on as they are, giving primacy to tactical massed defence, running with the ball through "blankets", passing through the hands, further development of the game into a sort of basketball/rugby hybrid, coming up with new ways to spoil the spectacle etc etc and let the more naive, purist counties from Connacht , Munster and Leinster get on with developing their game back into something it should resemble i.e. FOOTball 😜
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xonkqJt19dM

If you go to 39:07 you will hear John O'Mahony talking about the Mick O'Dwyer managed Kildare team playing a blanket defense in 1998.  Bit ironic that most people assume Pat Spillane invented the term in 2003 when giving out about northern teams.

At that time Tyrone used a high press on whoever was in possession. Not even remotely defensive. The exact same thing Kerry did in 1997 except Tyrone were more systematic in their application.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 14, 2019, 10:18:14 PM
Offensive mark has to go.
If it's caught and you don't tackle the forward, the forward has a free run.
If you do then are you tackling a player after the free is awarded, were the punishment can be moving the ball forward.
You can't make the forward take the free if wants to play on.
Shite rule, ill thought out. Should be binned immediately.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 14, 2019, 11:15:00 PM
Another Ulster noballer ;D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 14, 2019, 11:53:51 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 07:45:42 AM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

No, too hard to enforce on marginal calls and some of the best plays are small pop handpasses back to a forward or halfback coming at full pace onto the ball and driving through the defence
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2019, 09:56:46 AM
Seeing as we think Refs can't count handpasses and already have proved they can't count steps let's make it easy for them.
Allow unlimited running with the ball, allow straightforward throwing with no limits.
Sure we'd have great craic.
All you'd need then is an oval ball and allow Joe Sheridan "goals".
Then the Ref could become simply a score keeper and the Ulster crowd would get their wish to have kicking eradicated from the game.

Better put one of these in for some :D
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 15, 2019, 10:00:55 AM
Seeing as we think Refs can't count handpasses and already have proved they can't count steps let's make it easy for them.
Allow unlimited running with the ball, allow straightforward throwing with no limits.
Sure we'd have great craic.
All you'd need then is an oval ball and allow Joe Sheridan "goals".
Then the Ref could become simply a score keeper and the Ulster crowd would get their wish to have kicking eradicated from the game.

Better put one of these in for some :D

What is this rambling?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 15, 2019, 10:02:18 AM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 10:21:00 AM
Seeing as we think Refs can't count handpasses and already have proved they can't count steps let's make it easy for them.
Allow unlimited running with the ball, allow straightforward throwing with no limits.
Sure we'd have great craic.
All you'd need then is an oval ball and allow Joe Sheridan "goals".
Then the Ref could become simply a score keeper and the Ulster crowd would get their wish to have kicking eradicated from the game.

Better put one of these in for some :D

What is this rambling?

Himself, who I always had time for, seems to be completely dazzled by the headlines of less handpasses and completely ignores the fine print of all of the awful knock on effects that this rule has. It doesn't seem to matter if the game is 10 times worse, as long as we limit the use of handpasssing that is the only thing that matters
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 15, 2019, 11:35:34 AM
Jasus I'd expect a Tipp man to have some sense of humour :-\
Just light hearted comments on one of the reasons mentioned  for opposing the handpass -that Refs can't count to 3.

Didn't see many negatives for the trial rules in the Hyde last Sunday -except for Hughes getting a few marks as our defence watched on.
But then it was the purer football as practised in Connacht to start with.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Hound on January 15, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: bigpackiechestout on January 15, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

This is it in a nutshell. Similar to the way sports the world over are played when there is a mismatch, ie. see Manchester City playing some of the cannon fodder in the Premier League. Except in these sports it is accepted that not every game is going to be a free flowing shoot out.

That being said, I do think there is an inbalance at the moment towards defensive teams however I think a small tweak like outlawing the backpass to the keeper will significantly help. Again it will not eradicate defensive football and nor should this be it's intention. However it will encourage teams to press up on the opposition as the team in possession does not have the easy out of passing to the unmarked keeper, thus leaving more room at the opposite end of the pitch.

This rule would be at the expense of roaming keepers like Rory Beggan but IMO it is a sacrifice worth making, or at least trialing.

We need to be very wary of making overly prescriptive changes without properly considering the full consequences. IMO this was the issue with the black card, it is now the issue with the handpass restriction and it would also be the case with some other proposed changes such as Brolly's idea to ban the sweeper. We've got to remember that the game should be as free flowing as possible and not have the feel of a training game with artificial rules
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 15, 2019, 04:49:47 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

This is it in a nutshell. Similar to the way sports the world over are played when there is a mismatch, ie. see Manchester City playing some of the cannon fodder in the Premier League. Except in these sports it is accepted that not every game is going to be a free flowing shoot out.

That being said, I do think there is an inbalance at the moment towards defensive teams however I think a small tweak like outlawing the backpass to the keeper will significantly help. Again it will not eradicate defensive football and nor should this be it's intention. However it will encourage teams to press up on the opposition as the team in possession does not have the easy out of passing to the unmarked keeper, thus leaving more room at the opposite end of the pitch.

This rule would be at the expense of roaming keepers like Rory Beggan but IMO it is a sacrifice worth making, or at least trialing.

We need to be very wary of making overly prescriptive changes without properly considering the full consequences. IMO this was the issue with the black card, it is now the issue with the handpass restriction and it would also be the case with some other proposed changes such as Brolly's idea to ban the sweeper. We've got to remember that the game should be as free flowing as possible and not have the feel of a training game with artificial rules

Good to see the penny drop. Fix the fixtures, tier the competitions and you'll see a better standard of games. Div 3 and 4 teams shouldn't be allowed to compete for Sam. They're not good enough.
More evenly matched teams will equal better games. Rule changes only play to the mob of unintelligent, bandwagon supporters.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: bigpackiechestout on January 15, 2019, 05:06:33 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

This is it in a nutshell. Similar to the way sports the world over are played when there is a mismatch, ie. see Manchester City playing some of the cannon fodder in the Premier League. Except in these sports it is accepted that not every game is going to be a free flowing shoot out.

That being said, I do think there is an inbalance at the moment towards defensive teams however I think a small tweak like outlawing the backpass to the keeper will significantly help. Again it will not eradicate defensive football and nor should this be it's intention. However it will encourage teams to press up on the opposition as the team in possession does not have the easy out of passing to the unmarked keeper, thus leaving more room at the opposite end of the pitch.

This rule would be at the expense of roaming keepers like Rory Beggan but IMO it is a sacrifice worth making, or at least trialing.

We need to be very wary of making overly prescriptive changes without properly considering the full consequences. IMO this was the issue with the black card, it is now the issue with the handpass restriction and it would also be the case with some other proposed changes such as Brolly's idea to ban the sweeper. We've got to remember that the game should be as free flowing as possible and not have the feel of a training game with artificial rules

Good to see the penny drop. Fix the fixtures, tier the competitions and you'll see a better standard of games. Div 3 and 4 teams shouldn't be allowed to compete for Sam. They're not good enough.
More evenly matched teams will equal better games. Rule changes only play to the mob of unintelligent, bandwagon supporters.

I would add to this, make the referees properly enforce the current rules (ie. 4 steps) and properly define the tackle,
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 15, 2019, 06:18:37 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

Without repeating myself, surely less players would negate that. More space, and even if teams use a blanket, there’s still room available. Less players able to get back into a blanket might make managers realise, blankets are no good, let’s just attack and score more than them

Every argument or proposal mentioned, there are ways around them or too hard to enforce. Less players is the way to go.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 06:37:10 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

Without repeating myself, surely less players would negate that. More space, and even if teams use a blanket, there’s still room available. Less players able to get back into a blanket might make managers realise, blankets are no good, let’s just attack and score more than them

Every argument or proposal mentioned, there are ways around them or too hard to enforce. Less players is the way to go.

I agree with you and have laid out the case for it a number of times here. I think its by far the best option to trial for a more open and exciting game while still not going too far down the side of being ultra attacking. Nearly every rule proposed here or officially i dont really like and find negatives in and ive put out my reasoning for these, im not just a naysayer who hates change.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: thewobbler on January 15, 2019, 06:39:56 PM
Gaelic Life this week.

Cavan man suggests trialling no fisting backwards.

Could work.

What you think?

would that encourage you to kick the ball long?
Up to a man, that if he wins it, can't pop it back to a supporting player?
I thought about the no backwards handpasses too and I don't think it's a bad idea.
Would have to be an exception if you're inside your opponents 21

Although as for many of the proposed changes, got to consider if you're punishing the attacking team rather than the defending team. The main reason a team has multiple backpasses going nowhere is because the opposition won't come out and tackle.

Without repeating myself, surely less players would negate that. More space, and even if teams use a blanket, there’s still room available. Less players able to get back into a blanket might make managers realise, blankets are no good, let’s just attack and score more than them

Every argument or proposal mentioned, there are ways around them or too hard to enforce. Less players is the way to go.

Fewer players is absolutely the one rule change I would be against.

Gaelic football is already a game obsessed with fitness. The fitness levels required are an actual deterrent to player retention in anything below senior club level.

13 a side sees about a 15% increase in available room on a pitch. It would do nothing to improve footballing intelligence. It would do less again for the need for basic skills. It would mitigate the importance of physical strength. But anyone prepared to work night and day on their running ability would have a field day.

Meanwhile, across the country, intermediate, junior and b players quit the game because those who happily sign up to this culture have such an extraordinary advantage over those who will not. And while they are off to play soccer and rugby at those levels - where skill, strength and smarts are still valued - their home clubs struggle to field.

That’s the final outcome of this idea folks. Football has to be enjoyable to play or people will quit. Be careful what you wish for.

Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 06:44:08 PM
Jasus I'd expect a Tipp man to have some sense of humour :-\
Just light hearted comments on one of the reasons mentioned  for opposing the handpass -that Refs can't count to 3.

Didn't see many negatives for the trial rules in the Hyde last Sunday -except for Hughes getting a few marks as our defence watched on.
But then it was the purer football as practised in Connacht to start with.

Always found you a decent poster and always found the other rossie (syfrus prob spelt wrong) to be the wind up one. not trying to have a pop at you, i have just noticed over the course of this thread you seem very adamant that handpassing it the major problem in gaa when i feel mass defences are the route cause and limiting handpassing only incentives it more. Alot of the responses have been you calling it "throwball" and i just feel you are dead set on this rule being a huge improvement despite 99% of people who have been involved or attended games would say the game is an awful lot worse for it. Anyway apologies if i offended you, its something i try to avoid on here
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 15, 2019, 07:35:29 PM
Don't really see how going to 13 a side would make much of a difference. If you want to drop players back then the two players you lose would probably come from your forwards or one forward and one 'defender' that defends the 45m area.

The problem is we have seen how getting players back makes it more difficult to score. We have also now figured out how we can get them back and still transition pretty quickly when we turnover the opposition. We have now figured out that playing in front of the massed defence and probing is the most effective way of countering the massed defence. So unless we can figure out a way of preventing teams dropping players back and forcing opponents to play a probing kind of attack we are stuck with the pretty shit fare we get in many games.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 15, 2019, 08:22:08 PM
This thread definitely confirms the maxim opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one (and each 1 is different). 

I might as well add if we want to stop 'blanket defences' then I think we should have 1 explicit rule I.e. there has to be 3/4 players stay in own 1/2. Any 4 and the 4 can change. If the ref sees team has more than 11 players back give a 21 metre free.  Other team has to keep 3/4 players in defense as well to ensure they don't overrun the opposition who can't get numbers back to defend.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 15, 2019, 08:38:10 PM
This thread definitely confirms the maxim opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one (and each 1 is different). 

I might as well add if we want to stop 'blanket defences' then I think we should have 1 explicit rule I.e. there has to be 3/4 players stay in own 1/2. Any 4 and the 4 can change. If the ref sees team has more than 11 players back give a 21 metre free.  Other team has to keep 3/4 players in defense as well to ensure they don't overrun the opposition who can't get numbers back to defend.

Our poor old refs are struggling with the 1-2-3 handpass fiasco, never mind 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11..ball gets hoofed up the pitch, 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11-12 *whistle*. 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-11.......
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 08:45:58 PM
This thread definitely confirms the maxim opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one (and each 1 is different). 

I might as well add if we want to stop 'blanket defences' then I think we should have 1 explicit rule I.e. there has to be 3/4 players stay in own 1/2. Any 4 and the 4 can change. If the ref sees team has more than 11 players back give a 21 metre free.  Other team has to keep 3/4 players in defense as well to ensure they don't overrun the opposition who can't get numbers back to defend.

i presume you mean 3/4 stay in oppositions half (stay forward) as opposed to stay in own half.....i just think these are way to complicated and hard to enforce....its like if a defender is coming out with the ball and a forward is chasing him and tackling him then he has to put on the breaks and give up if crossing the line resulting in a free. I would absolutely love 15 on 15, open space, attractive football.....i am not trying to pick any holes so the game can stay shite and boring like alot of them are now
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 15, 2019, 08:55:30 PM
Don't really see how going to 13 a side would make much of a difference. If you want to drop players back then the two players you lose would probably come from your forwards or one forward and one 'defender' that defends the 45m area.

The problem is we have seen how getting players back makes it more difficult to score. We have also now figured out how we can get them back and still transition pretty quickly when we turnover the opposition. We have now figured out that playing in front of the massed defence and probing is the most effective way of countering the massed defence. So unless we can figure out a way of preventing teams dropping players back and forcing opponents to play a probing kind of attack we are stuck with the pretty shit fare we get in many games.

But would you be open to trialing it and seeing how it panned out. Youve stated your reasons why you think it mightnt work i feel it would be very much worth looking at because.......

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players. Even in this years all ireland at times dublin had 15 players in their own half, so taking 2 out can only free up space that is being occupied

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp starting team would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench. The last few years we had a strong starting 15 with 3/4 players who you would be happy to come on and do a good job and be effective....dublin bring on 6 all stars off the bench so with 13 a side it should only strengthen the full compliment of players every team uses in a game

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyCake on January 15, 2019, 09:12:28 PM
This thread definitely confirms the maxim opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one (and each 1 is different). 

I might as well add if we want to stop 'blanket defences' then I think we should have 1 explicit rule I.e. there has to be 3/4 players stay in own 1/2. Any 4 and the 4 can change. If the ref sees team has more than 11 players back give a 21 metre free.  Other team has to keep 3/4 players in defense as well to ensure they don't overrun the opposition who can't get numbers back to defend.

i presume you mean 3/4 stay in oppositions half (stay forward) as opposed to stay in own half.....i just think these are way to complicated and hard to enforce....its like if a defender is coming out with the ball and a forward is chasing him and tackling him then he has to put on the breaks and give up if crossing the line resulting in a free. I would absolutely love 15 on 15, open space, attractive football.....i am not trying to pick any holes so the game can stay shite and boring like alot of them are now

Yeah I agree. Refs have enough to do without counting players behind a line. You’d need bleepers fitted to all players or something.

I think with 11/12 players, teams might be more likely to go man to man. As a free man could really do damage. So there’s an incentive to defend, and an incentive to attack.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 15, 2019, 10:04:51 PM
This thread definitely confirms the maxim opinions are like a**holes, everyone's got one (and each 1 is different). 

I might as well add if we want to stop 'blanket defences' then I think we should have 1 explicit rule I.e. there has to be 3/4 players stay in own 1/2. Any 4 and the 4 can change. If the ref sees team has more than 11 players back give a 21 metre free.  Other team has to keep 3/4 players in defense as well to ensure they don't overrun the opposition who can't get numbers back to defend.

i presume you mean 3/4 stay in oppositions half (stay forward) as opposed to stay in own half.....i just think these are way to complicated and hard to enforce....its like if a defender is coming out with the ball and a forward is chasing him and tackling him then he has to put on the breaks and give up if crossing the line resulting in a free. I would absolutely love 15 on 15, open space, attractive football.....i am not trying to pick any holes so the game can stay shite and boring like alot of them are now
But 15 vs 15 is like wishing they would bring back Cagney & Lacey 1 it's not going to happen and 2 it probably wasn't as good as you remember.

Coaching always evolves and the coaches at county level haven't got the job winning it in a raffle. They have more than likely had some success in the first place playing the way they do. If there was a coach out there that was winning everything 15 vs 15 there would be a queue to hire them.  I personally don't like 6 forwards standing in conventional position. It stops the long ball in to full forward if the chf forward is standing in the road 10 meters directly in front of him.

I agree with you on problem of if guy coming out with call he might rightly realise that there will only be 3 back if he crosses 1/2 way line. As long as 1 of 1/2 forwards also realise the back is making a run out of defence he can back into his 1/2. I'm definitely making it sound complicated but don't know if it would be.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: macdanger2 on January 15, 2019, 10:19:54 PM
Don't really see how going to 13 a side would make much of a difference. If you want to drop players back then the two players you lose would probably come from your forwards or one forward and one 'defender' that defends the 45m area.

The problem is we have seen how getting players back makes it more difficult to score. We have also now figured out how we can get them back and still transition pretty quickly when we turnover the opposition. We have now figured out that playing in front of the massed defence and probing is the most effective way of countering the massed defence. So unless we can figure out a way of preventing teams dropping players back and forcing opponents to play a probing kind of attack we are stuck with the pretty shit fare we get in many games.

But would you be open to trialing it and seeing how it panned out. Youve stated your reasons why you think it mightnt work i feel it would be very much worth looking at because.......

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players. Even in this years all ireland at times dublin had 15 players in their own half, so taking 2 out can only free up space that is being occupied

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp starting team would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench. The last few years we had a strong starting 15 with 3/4 players who you would be happy to come on and do a good job and be effective....dublin bring on 6 all stars off the bench so with 13 a side it should only strengthen the full compliment of players every team uses in a game

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

I'd be in favour of trialling it for the above reasons plus the simplicity of it, it adds no extra pressure on the ref and it doesn't fundamentally change the game. Wobbler's point about it favouring fitness over skill at lower levels (at higher levels, incredible fitness is already a pre requisite) may be one downside to consider
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 15, 2019, 10:39:39 PM
Don't really see how going to 13 a side would make much of a difference. If you want to drop players back then the two players you lose would probably come from your forwards or one forward and one 'defender' that defends the 45m area.

The problem is we have seen how getting players back makes it more difficult to score. We have also now figured out how we can get them back and still transition pretty quickly when we turnover the opposition. We have now figured out that playing in front of the massed defence and probing is the most effective way of countering the massed defence. So unless we can figure out a way of preventing teams dropping players back and forcing opponents to play a probing kind of attack we are stuck with the pretty shit fare we get in many games.

But would you be open to trialing it and seeing how it panned out. Youve stated your reasons why you think it mightnt work i feel it would be very much worth looking at because.......

1. Less players means more space, I fully believe there should be allowance for a defensive set up, carlow and fermanagh for instance I don't think would have had the success of last year without it and with 13 a side you could still implement this but there should be more room to operate and space to find for attacking players. Even in this years all ireland at times dublin had 15 players in their own half, so taking 2 out can only free up space that is being occupied

2. Players are fitter than they have ever been, should be no issue in this regards with less players.

3. It should help counties with a smaller/less talented pick than the bigger counties....I know in tipp starting team would be stronger starting 13 and much better quality of player to be able call off the bench. The last few years we had a strong starting 15 with 3/4 players who you would be happy to come on and do a good job and be effective....dublin bring on 6 all stars off the bench so with 13 a side it should only strengthen the full compliment of players every team uses in a game

4. It would make a huge difference to rural clubs who struggle for numbers.

I'd certainly have no issue with trialling it. I don't think the three hand pass rule is the right answer either but I'm in favour of it getting a longer trial than many here are willing to give it. The bottom line is nobody knows what will change the game for the better and I think any rule change needs to be trialled in at least 100 games to see how it changes the game. The game isn't a good spectacle at the moment so we need to get serious about how to address that. Trialling changes at senior IC level is not the way to go.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: seafoid on January 16, 2019, 11:28:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/central-council-must-take-their-chance-to-change-the-game-1.3759248

"That the handpass proposal has been advanced reflects the deep unease within the game that kicking the ball has become a skill, the practice of which is in accelerated decline. This concern was also expressed by the report of the 2012 Football Review Committee report but it was decided that as hand-passing had shown signs of abating no moves would be made to curb the practice.
That ‘trend’ proved illusory, as can be seen by combining the statistical findings of the FRC and the current Standing Committee on the Playing Rules.
In the 1970s the ratio of hand-pass to kicked pass was 1.1:1. By 2000, this had risen to 1.8:1. Ten years later, it was 2.3:1. The recent SCPR recommendations reported the 2018 figure as 3.4:1.

Time to act

If the GAA wants to do something about this it is clearly time to act. There are those who say that there is nothing wrong with football but the transition to a possession-based game makes it less exciting on the simple objective grounds that the ball is in contest for a far smaller amount of time.
That is the basis of the most damning comparison with hurling where possession is contested several times a minute.
Given the strength of feeling on the quality of football at present, which is a factor, along with others, such as competitive imbalance, in its waning popularity – evident in both match attendances and television audiences – a review was bound to take place."

This could explain at lot


Down would be  operating at a ratio of 1.6 : 1 which was the 1994 level
Meath would be operating at 1.8 :1 or the 2001 level
Tyrone and Kerry  must be at 2.3 :1 or the 2010 level


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 16, 2019, 11:41:44 AM
Tippabu  you haven't insulted or upset me at all.
No harm in a bit of debate at all.
I strongly feel incessant handpassing has ruined football and when you combine that with ball carriers being let do what they want while getting frees if touched.....
The latter left defenders fearful of tackling at all which led us to blanket defences and turning the game into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is still loose enough that a tackler has some chance of getting it.
If we continue to let football be a possession game then we need to bring in a tackle on the man ala Aussie Rules or dare I say rubby ::)
Anyway over to Central Council this weekend
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 16, 2019, 01:32:57 PM
http://pca.st/0Xj8

off the ball podcast, 40 odd mins in Brian Cuthbert, Cork manager, chats about the rules. He was on the standing committee that introduced them. For those who are rubbishing the rules I strongly suggest you at least listen to him. Then ask yourself why only 12 of the 32 managers surveyed bothered to reply.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 16, 2019, 02:14:45 PM

So some managers and coaches should be listened to? Could you supply two lists so that we know how navigate the discussion?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 16, 2019, 02:32:39 PM
Well I'd listen to the 12 that replied. Should we listen to those who didn't bother replying but will rubbish other people's suggestions on the national airwaves?

The game needs help, very few people disagree with that. I coach teams and when you're on the line you tend not to notice if the game is good or bad so it's fair to say most IC set ups are not focused on whether the game is good to watch. However, I think every sport should be concerned whether it's entertaining to the general sporting public.

I'll coach a team to play around outside a massed defence and probe for chances but not force score attempts. I won't pay €10 - €50 to watch other teams do it too often though. It should concern any genuine football fan when many genuine football people aren't bothered about watching the game anymore.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 16, 2019, 02:42:49 PM

So some managers and coaches should be listened to? Could you supply two lists so that we know how navigate the discussion?

 I feel like I'm a teacher in baby infants with you., If all these managers today are universally against the rule why did the vast majority of them not get involved when invited to in the formative period when rules were being developed? Some rules were tweaked in the early stages. Now same managers just expect them to be dumped and Declan Bonner for example heaped insult on those who came up with the rules. That is the point I'm asking the likes of you to comment on.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on January 16, 2019, 04:07:51 PM
Well I'd listen to the 12 that replied. Should we listen to those who didn't bother replying but will rubbish other people's suggestions on the national airwaves?

The game needs help, very few people disagree with that. I coach teams and when you're on the line you tend not to notice if the game is good or bad so it's fair to say most IC set ups are not focused on whether the game is good to watch. However, I think every sport should be concerned whether it's entertaining to the general sporting public.

I'll coach a team to play around outside a massed defence and probe for chances but not force score attempts. I won't pay €10 - €50 to watch other teams do it too often though. It should concern any genuine football fan when many genuine football people aren't bothered about watching the game anymore.

100% correct. Entertainment value has declined dramatically. But Managers are getting "expenses" so for the most part they don't give a shite about quality.

As for Declan Bonner, did he not manage a Donegal minor team and a good few of them have graduated to the senior ranks, maybe he realizes that it will be very difficult to change stripes.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 16, 2019, 09:31:41 PM
And we know the county managers who are complaining now aren't among the 12 original respondents?

Without exception, everyone I know involved with the game in any practical way acknowledge the game needs help as a spectacle. However, any of those whose opinion i'd give any credence were able to discern the effect of the handpass limit on the game and recognised immediately that it was a mistake. The games to date bear that out but anyone who supported it immediately - not least the Rules crew - won't admit they were wrong and seem intent on hanging in and damaging possible future attempts to make a credible impact through rule changes.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 16, 2019, 09:40:15 PM
Anyone with any level of understanding of the game know these playing rules are hindering not helping the game.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 16, 2019, 10:57:20 PM
And we know the county managers who are complaining now aren't among the 12 original respondents?

Without exception, everyone I know involved with the game in any practical way acknowledge the game needs help as a spectacle. However, any of those whose opinion i'd give any credence were able to discern the effect of the handpass limit on the game and recognised immediately that it was a mistake. The games to date bear that out but anyone who supported it immediately - not least the Rules crew - won't admit they were wrong and seem intent on hanging in and damaging possible future attempts to make a credible impact through rule changes.

In fairness, we can all have opinions but until we give things a chance none of us can be sure and I certainly wouldn't agree that the experimental rules have been given enough time to see if they will have a positive impact or not. With the exception of the sin bin, I wouldn't have proposed any of the experimental rules but I haven't heard a single suggestion that I think wold definitely impact the game positively from the get go.

I'm be willing to give the rules time to have an impact. The 3 hand pass rule for example, won't have an discernible impact until coaches and teams start to prepare and develop tactically using the rule. It might turn out to have n o positive effect but with nothing else on the table and a game which is in a bad place I think we need to give it a go. My only issue is why the GAA don't trial things at lower levels, even run special competitions under experimental rules before throwing them under the spotlight.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: bucko on January 16, 2019, 11:47:11 PM
Anyone with any level of understanding of the game know these playing rules are hindering not helping the game.
Because the starting point for the rule changes was “ How do we reduce the amount of handpassing in the game” and too much focus was put on that. In typical GAA fashion a set of rules were created that appear to compound the problem rather than alleviate it. The thought process needed to start with “What rule changes would benefit the team who puts the emphasis on attack”. Then we might start moving in a better direction. Not this trial situation which over complicates the game and heaps more on already overloaded referees.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 17, 2019, 12:04:36 AM
As a player, coach and referee I just don't see how the handpsss rule will work

The rules are fine.
If players were more highly skilled and their managers allowed them to take more risks in kicking the ball forward, then it would solve a lot

I'd actually make the goalie take goal kicks from either side of the goal from the small rectangle.
It would stretch out the pitch, the defending team has to cover more ground and would leave more room
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: cornetto on January 17, 2019, 09:26:28 AM
Shane Walsh of Galway gave his views on the new rules talking to rte
 "The hand pass rule seems just a bit daft with three. You’ve gone from a record number of hand passes in a game to three hand passes consecutively. I think that’s a bit of an extreme jump.

"If the ball can be moved forward quickly, move it forward quickly It's not a case of we have to count this hand-pass and use the three and then kick. Just play the game as you see it.

"If the attacking mark goes through, you will look to play to players’ strengths.

"You’re probably going to see a few big lads you’ve never seen before play football inside in the full-forward line. I think it brings a bit of excitement – you’re showing the art of catching and kicking, which is a huge part of what Gaelic football  is about.

"So I think that would be huge if they implement that one. But does it slow up the game? Will teams use the time advantage to kill off games? It’s 15 seconds, that’s probably something that trial and error will work out. I don’t know. For us, having the likes of Damo [Comer] inside, it would be something you’d like to use." :)
I notice he didn't mention the sin bin this has to be a must one of the more positive proposals"


.
I too would be a supporter of the forward mark,Michael Murphy,Aidan o shea in around the forward line,soaring for high ball.it did not work too well for Jason Doherty's in the fbd last Sunday, he caught a high ball was in on goal but was called back for a mark.it can be tweaked though.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: blewuporstuffed on January 17, 2019, 10:45:54 AM
Anyone with any level of understanding of the game know these playing rules are hindering not helping the game.
Because the starting point for the rule changes was “ How do we reduce the amount of handpassing in the game” and too much focus was put on that. In typical GAA fashion a set of rules were created that appear to compound the problem rather than alleviate it. The thought process needed to start with “What rule changes would benefit the team who puts the emphasis on attack”. Then we might start moving in a better direction. Not this trial situation which over complicates the game and heaps more on already overloaded referees.

I think this is a key point when looking at any rule change.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on January 17, 2019, 01:57:47 PM
As a player, coach and referee I just don't see how the handpsss rule will work

The rules are fine.
If players were more highly skilled and their managers allowed them to take more risks in kicking the ball forward, then it would solve a lot

I'd actually make the goalie take goal kicks from either side of the goal from the small rectangle.
It would stretch out the pitch, the defending team has to cover more ground and would leave more room

This seems to be the biggest issue, a lot of "managers/chancers", the latter more at club level, are coaching teams to handpass, handpass handpass, and do not kick the ball forward 25 or 30 yards.
it is really entertaining stuff to watch  ::)

By all accounts, it goes so far that if a young fella (God forbids kicks the ball into a 50/50 situation, his coach will rip him a new one, and more that likely yell "keep possession, don't kick it in".

I don't have all the answers, but like a lot of others agree on the problem.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: rosnarun on January 17, 2019, 02:00:27 PM
Shane Walsh of Galway gave his views on the new rules talking to rte
 "The hand pass rule seems just a bit daft with three. You’ve gone from a record number of hand passes in a game to three hand passes consecutively. I think that’s a bit of an extreme jump.

"If the ball can be moved forward quickly, move it forward quickly It's not a case of we have to count this hand-pass and use the three and then kick. Just play the game as you see it.

"If the attacking mark goes through, you will look to play to players’ strengths.

"You’re probably going to see a few big lads you’ve never seen before play football inside in the full-forward line. I think it brings a bit of excitement – you’re showing the art of catching and kicking, which is a huge part of what Gaelic football  is about.

"So I think that would be huge if they implement that one. But does it slow up the game? Will teams use the time advantage to kill off games? It’s 15 seconds, that’s probably something that trial and error will work out. I don’t know. For us, having the likes of Damo [Comer] inside, it would be something you’d like to use." :)
I notice he didn't mention the sin bin this has to be a must one of the more positive proposals"


.
I too would be a supporter of the forward mark,Michael Murphy,Aidan o shea in around the forward line,soaring for high ball.it did not work too well for Jason Doherty's in the fbd last Sunday, he caught a high ball was in on goal but was called back for a mark.it can be tweaked though.
Shane Walsh of Galway gave his views on the new rules talking to rte
 "The hand pass rule seems just a bit daft with three. You’ve gone from a record number of hand passes in a game to three hand passes consecutively. I think that’s a bit of an extreme jump.

"If the ball can be moved forward quickly, move it forward quickly It's not a case of we have to count this hand-pass and use the three and then kick. Just play the game as you see it.

"If the attacking mark goes through, you will look to play to players’ strengths.

"You’re probably going to see a few big lads you’ve never seen before play football inside in the full-forward line. I think it brings a bit of excitement – you’re showing the art of catching and kicking, which is a huge part of what Gaelic football  is about.

"So I think that would be huge if they implement that one. But does it slow up the game? Will teams use the time advantage to kill off games? It’s 15 seconds, that’s probably something that trial and error will work out. I don’t know. For us, having the likes of Damo [Comer] inside, it would be something you’d like to use." :)
I notice he didn't mention the sin bin this has to be a must one of the more positive proposals"


.
I too would be a supporter of the forward mark,Michael Murphy,Aidan o shea in around the forward line,soaring for high ball.it did not work too well for Jason Doherty's in the fbd last Sunday, he caught a high ball was in on goal but was called back for a mark.it can be tweaked though.

so is the mark compulsory if the ball I scaught or is there an option to play on?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 17, 2019, 02:02:50 PM
Shane Walsh of Galway gave his views on the new rules talking to rte
 "The hand pass rule seems just a bit daft with three. You’ve gone from a record number of hand passes in a game to three hand passes consecutively. I think that’s a bit of an extreme jump.

"If the ball can be moved forward quickly, move it forward quickly It's not a case of we have to count this hand-pass and use the three and then kick. Just play the game as you see it.

"If the attacking mark goes through, you will look to play to players’ strengths.

"You’re probably going to see a few big lads you’ve never seen before play football inside in the full-forward line. I think it brings a bit of excitement – you’re showing the art of catching and kicking, which is a huge part of what Gaelic football  is about.

"So I think that would be huge if they implement that one. But does it slow up the game? Will teams use the time advantage to kill off games? It’s 15 seconds, that’s probably something that trial and error will work out. I don’t know. For us, having the likes of Damo [Comer] inside, it would be something you’d like to use." :)
I notice he didn't mention the sin bin this has to be a must one of the more positive proposals"


.
I too would be a supporter of the forward mark,Michael Murphy,Aidan o shea in around the forward line,soaring for high ball.it did not work too well for Jason Doherty's in the fbd last Sunday, he caught a high ball was in on goal but was called back for a mark.it can be tweaked though.
Shane Walsh of Galway gave his views on the new rules talking to rte
 "The hand pass rule seems just a bit daft with three. You’ve gone from a record number of hand passes in a game to three hand passes consecutively. I think that’s a bit of an extreme jump.

"If the ball can be moved forward quickly, move it forward quickly It's not a case of we have to count this hand-pass and use the three and then kick. Just play the game as you see it.

"If the attacking mark goes through, you will look to play to players’ strengths.

"You’re probably going to see a few big lads you’ve never seen before play football inside in the full-forward line. I think it brings a bit of excitement – you’re showing the art of catching and kicking, which is a huge part of what Gaelic football  is about.

"So I think that would be huge if they implement that one. But does it slow up the game? Will teams use the time advantage to kill off games? It’s 15 seconds, that’s probably something that trial and error will work out. I don’t know. For us, having the likes of Damo [Comer] inside, it would be something you’d like to use." :)
I notice he didn't mention the sin bin this has to be a must one of the more positive proposals"


.
I too would be a supporter of the forward mark,Michael Murphy,Aidan o shea in around the forward line,soaring for high ball.it did not work too well for Jason Doherty's in the fbd last Sunday, he caught a high ball was in on goal but was called back for a mark.it can be tweaked though.

so is the mark compulsory if the ball I scaught or is there an option to play on?

You can play on
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 17, 2019, 02:03:45 PM
I'd have thought it's the same as the midfield one - Ref blows for the mark but player can stop or go??
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 17, 2019, 02:16:52 PM
I'd have thought it's the same as the midfield one - Ref blows for the mark but player can stop or go??

does the catcher have the 4 steps without being tackled advantage if they decide to lay on immediately? Would be quite the advantage in the scoring zone
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: giveballaghback on January 17, 2019, 07:57:12 PM
I have attended 2 games so far under these rules and I agree with all the rules except the sideline kicked forward, the handpass rule is very positive imo and you could clearly see that players were reluctant to give the 3rd handpass so they looked to kick at all times, there were no rugby league situations that have spoiled our game. The forward mark is great and when teams cop on to using it will change the game big time. We need to have patience and allow the refs some time to get used to the changes and maybe the linesmen could do the counting on the 3 handpass rule as they are all miked now anyway for inter county games. Those shouting loudest against this are managers who will have to reshuffle the deck if these rules come in
but imo these rules are a step towards making our games watchable again   
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: ONeill on January 18, 2019, 12:06:37 AM
the handpass rule is very positive imo and you could clearly see that players were reluctant to give the 3rd handpass so they looked to kick at all times,

What???

There was a moment last week when Tyrone broke brilliantly from their own 45. 2 handpasses and Harte had three runners steaming ahead of him. So he kicked a hand pass. 3 yards. Why?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 18, 2019, 12:18:54 AM
Kicked a handpass????
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: stephenite on January 18, 2019, 01:10:19 AM
the handpass rule is very positive imo and you could clearly see that players were reluctant to give the 3rd handpass so they looked to kick at all times,

What???

There was a moment last week when Tyrone broke brilliantly from their own 45. 2 handpasses and Harte had three runners steaming ahead of him. So he kicked a hand pass. 3 yards. Why?

New rules stymie those whose styles they were bought in to counter.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 18, 2019, 11:48:17 AM
the handpass rule is very positive imo and you could clearly see that players were reluctant to give the 3rd handpass so they looked to kick at all times,

What???

There was a moment last week when Tyrone broke brilliantly from their own 45. 2 handpasses and Harte had three runners steaming ahead of him. So he kicked a hand pass. 3 yards. Why?

Why? Because Tyrone had everyone behind the ball to start with. Maybe if they didnt they might have been able to attack from one end of the field to t he other without 10 handpasses. This is the problem. Tyrone and Fermanagh were 2 point each at Half time few weeks ago as both of them were set up like this. In my opinion the rules are trying  to incentivise teams to stop setting up like that. It will take time for coaches completely set in their ways to start thinking "how do I need to set up my team to maximise performance with these rules". At the moment coaches are thinking "how do I get rid of these rules as it will work against everything I've been doing for the past years"

In addition, just this morning I was talking to a referree who is one of the top ones in the country, I asked him genuinely what he thought from a ref perspective. He felt it wasnt that bad to referee and that he was in favour of trying it for the league. I havent heard any grumbling from referees yet but ironically plenty of grumbling on their behalf from "concerned" managers.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 18, 2019, 12:05:28 PM
I think all the new stats that the managers are using and presenting to players might be making players more reluctant to pass the ball long.  Who wants to be the player with the 60% pass success rate when you lose by a point when everyone else is in the 90s.

But stats can be misinterpreted as well.  e.g.  Player X has a 60% pass completion rate by trying to pick out the full forward and player Y can have a 95% pass completion rate by passing the ball side ways 3 yards.  But really player Y pass has gone nowhere and if player Y with this 95% pass success rate hand passed it 10 times he will have 40% chance that 1 of them will go astray (0.95)^10 = 59.9.  His overall 3 yard pass success rate will still be 95% though he hasn't really benefited the team really.

You hear it all the time in sports stats e.g.  snooker.  Player X has a 100% long ball pot success rate and player B has 60%.  and the 100% is supposed to be great even though they are losing.

I could go for 1 pot get it and never try another 1 and get whipped 10 nil but my long pot success says 100%.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 18, 2019, 12:55:11 PM
That's exactly it Maiden1. The game has become a percentages game, why kick it 10 times when you might lose it 50% of the time as opposed to hand passing it 30 times and maybe losing it once or twice? Game management is what we call it I think.

Winning football is now invariably boring football because teams get bodies back and are organised enough that they can get the extra bodies where they need them most of the time. The handpass rule may just encourage teams to start leaving players up so that they have someone to kick to and the game may open up again.


I was willing to give the game the room to evolve naturally but I just don't see us naturally moving back to a more kick orientated game anymore and if the game is to be a good spectacle we need to do that IMO.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Ringfort on January 18, 2019, 01:43:58 PM
Yes, the handpass rule is there to make the blanket less attractive. When a ball is turnedover near your own goal and you only have three fist passes to get out of danger you damn well better have men up the field or out wide to kick it to. The only teams who would continue to play blankets are minnows looking to avoid tankings. The rest of the games would open up as the skills of accurate kicking, catching, getting out in front, winning duels etc would come to the fore. As is natural the best and most gifted players would thrive, the best teams usually would win. Not the best coaching systems and fittest players who are just carriers of the ball as is now the case. It would see a move away from possession based football towards one with more "turnovers" or contested possessions as the ball will have to be released more frequently. A bit like the way it is in hurling, where the battles one on one and play shifting this way and that make it an exciting spectacle for the crowd and exciting to participate it in for the player. Those teams persisting under the new hand pass rule with mass defence would soon be found out as teams realise that when a forward ball is lost or turned over you press and harry the hell out of the defence as there are only 3 fist passes until they have to kick it and with hardly any forwards up the mass defence team is going to be camped in for quite a while!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on January 18, 2019, 02:18:53 PM
the handpass rule is very positive imo and you could clearly see that players were reluctant to give the 3rd handpass so they looked to kick at all times,

What???

There was a moment last week when Tyrone broke brilliantly from their own 45. 2 handpasses and Harte had three runners steaming ahead of him. So he kicked a hand pass. 3 yards. Why?

Why? Because Tyrone had everyone behind the ball to start with. Maybe if they didnt they might have been able to attack from one end of the field to t he other without 10 handpasses. This is the problem. Tyrone and Fermanagh were 2 point each at Half time few weeks ago as both of them were set up like this. In my opinion the rules are trying  to incentivise teams to stop setting up like that. It will take time for coaches completely set in their ways to start thinking "how do I need to set up my team to maximise performance with these rules". At the moment coaches are thinking "how do I get rid of these rules as it will work against everything I've been doing for the past years"

In addition, just this morning I was talking to a referree who is one of the top ones in the country, I asked him genuinely what he thought from a ref perspective. He felt it wasnt that bad to referee and that he was in favour of trying it for the league. I havent heard any grumbling from referees yet but ironically plenty of grumbling on their behalf from "concerned" managers.

The points you made that I underlined;

A) sum up the reason why it should be given a chance.
B) why a lot of current manager are totally against it. (That is until they are fired or leave and then become pundits, at which point the will bemoan the quality of Gaelic football as a spectacle).
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: johnnycool on January 18, 2019, 02:53:17 PM
I think all the new stats that the managers are using and presenting to players might be making players more reluctant to pass the ball long.  Who wants to be the player with the 60% pass success rate when you lose by a point when everyone else is in the 90s.

But stats can be misinterpreted as well.  e.g.  Player X has a 60% pass completion rate by trying to pick out the full forward and player Y can have a 95% pass completion rate by passing the ball side ways 3 yards.  But really player Y pass has gone nowhere and if player Y with this 95% pass success rate hand passed it 10 times he will have 40% chance that 1 of them will go astray (0.95)^10 = 59.9.  His overall 3 yard pass success rate will still be 95% though he hasn't really benefited the team really.

You hear it all the time in sports stats e.g.  snooker.  Player X has a 100% long ball pot success rate and player B has 60%.  and the 100% is supposed to be great even though they are losing.

I could go for 1 pot get it and never try another 1 and get whipped 10 nil but my long pot success says 100%.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

You'd like to think that these backroom teams are prepared to be more nuanced in so far that one pass doesn't necessarily equate to the same value as another pass with greater risk involved but may result in a score.

A Trevor Giles or a Ciaran McDonald type player may have had poor success rates but when they were successful a scoring chance more often than not was created unlike the worker bees playing safe in a system we see now.


Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Maiden1 on January 18, 2019, 03:00:47 PM
I think all the new stats that the managers are using and presenting to players might be making players more reluctant to pass the ball long.  Who wants to be the player with the 60% pass success rate when you lose by a point when everyone else is in the 90s.

But stats can be misinterpreted as well.  e.g.  Player X has a 60% pass completion rate by trying to pick out the full forward and player Y can have a 95% pass completion rate by passing the ball side ways 3 yards.  But really player Y pass has gone nowhere and if player Y with this 95% pass success rate hand passed it 10 times he will have 40% chance that 1 of them will go astray (0.95)^10 = 59.9.  His overall 3 yard pass success rate will still be 95% though he hasn't really benefited the team really.

You hear it all the time in sports stats e.g.  snooker.  Player X has a 100% long ball pot success rate and player B has 60%.  and the 100% is supposed to be great even though they are losing.

I could go for 1 pot get it and never try another 1 and get whipped 10 nil but my long pot success says 100%.

Lies, damned lies and statistics.

You'd like to think that these backroom teams are prepared to be more nuanced in so far that one pass doesn't necessarily equate to the same value as another pass with greater risk involved but may result in a score.

A Trevor Giles or a Ciaran McDonald type player may have had poor success rates but when they were successful a scoring chance more often than not was created unlike the worker bees playing safe in a system we see now.

I hope and presume they are more nuanced.  But a manager who maybe never used a stats sheet in his life suddenly gets presented with all this information and also a player getting emailed their numbers for the match, are they all realising that maybe it's ok to have a 60% pass success rate depending on what you trying to do.  Trevor Giles, Ciaran McDonald, Marty Clarke I bet they all have sh1te pass completion rates compared to the average now.  My fear is that every time a player takes a chance and it doesn't come off they are more likely to go for the safe option the next time.  The same thing with shooting.  In theory you might think 100% shooting success rate was great but it might  mean your team needs to start shooting more.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on January 18, 2019, 04:42:20 PM
When is the official word coming out if these new rules are staying in place for the NFL or not? A bit daft having teams currently training to adjust to the new rules when they might not be used in the weeks ahead.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 18, 2019, 06:01:38 PM
C C meeting tomorrow.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 06:57:31 PM
Well we will all see in the o Byrne cup on tg4 tonight the rules live on tv.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:13:16 PM
Ok....1 thing....are the new rule applied for o Byrne cup and if so has the kick out rule been modified? I thought the ball had to pass the 45?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Blowitupref on January 18, 2019, 08:15:10 PM
Well we will all see in the o Byrne cup on tg4 tonight the rules live on tv.

13 mins gone  1 score, not sure are the new rules to blame for such a low quality and error ridden game so far?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:16:45 PM
Well we will all see in the o Byrne cup on tg4 tonight the rules live on tv.

13 mins gone  1 score, not sure are the new rules to blame for such a low quality and error ridden game so far?

No....tbf, new rules have had no effect in a negative way as of yet
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:17:47 PM
Sideline going backwards just now....but that's an awful rule for me and never used in a negative way....Dublin were going back to go forward
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:32:29 PM
Can someone explain to me please the new kick out rule? I missed the revised one. I thought the ball needed to pass the 45.....is it now just that every kick out is from the 21?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 18, 2019, 08:45:10 PM
After a few rethinks it's from the 20 and presumably must travel 13m.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:50:40 PM
After a few rethinks it's from the 20 and presumably must travel 13m.

Spot on....didn't realise that.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Sportacus on January 18, 2019, 08:51:17 PM
I’m finding myself completely distracted by counting the handpasses, but you can nearly see the panic in players when they have to kick, which is sad to see.  I’m all for giving the hand pass rule a chance despite all the whinging.  The awkward truth is that the way football has been coached by many managers has ruined it as a spectacle (with the odd exception) and a whole generation of players believe conservative/negative/possession/percentage football is the only way. When I go to a game now I often have no idea why players run into certain positions, they have become programmed to systems rather than playing on their instincts. 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 18, 2019, 08:52:37 PM
I’m finding myself completely distracted by counting the handpasses, but you can nearly see the panic in players when they have to kick, which is sad to see.  I’m all for giving the hand pass rule a chance despite all the whinging.  The awkward truth is that the way football has been coached by many managers has ruined it as a spectacle (with the odd exception) and a whole generation of players believe conservative/negative/possession/percentage football is the only way. When I go to a game now I often have no idea why players run into certain positions, they have become programmed to systems rather than playing on their instincts.

I'm the exact same.....I've never counted 1....2.... as much in my life.....I'm praying for a foul on it to see if it's picked up and how if affects the game
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 18, 2019, 09:54:21 PM
No need to be counting. Close 1 finger on pass 1, 2nd finger on pass 2.........
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Ringfort on January 18, 2019, 10:22:29 PM
I think that tonight was a good advert for the 3 hand pass rule. A tight low scoring game but still fairly entertaining to watch. Teams can still set up with a strong emphasis on defence, like WH did, recycle the ball across the back and middle, but they must have a few outlets up top.  The best thing I reckon is that due to the nature of creating an emphasis on foot passing the ball is regularly played forward in riskier scenarios than it has been in recent times, there are more duels and turnovers and it creates a more exciting and skilful spectacle than lads endlessly turning back and throwing a safe hand pass rather than risk a ball off the foot and a bollocking from his manager.

In one fell swoop unending periods of recycled possession and cautious probing have been eradicated. Give it a chance lads!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 18, 2019, 10:25:25 PM
I’m finding myself completely distracted by counting the handpasses, but you can nearly see the panic in players when they have to kick, which is sad to see.  I’m all for giving the hand pass rule a chance despite all the whinging.  The awkward truth is that the way football has been coached by many managers has ruined it as a spectacle (with the odd exception) and a whole generation of players believe conservative/negative/possession/percentage football is the only way. When I go to a game now I often have no idea why players run into certain positions, they have become programmed to systems rather than playing on their instincts.

And that's the point. The ref has to count them too and also count hops and steps at same time. At same time they have to look out for for a jersey pull etc... maybe forty yards away. Also with mark being up to speed to see where kick pass was from and judge distance travelled. Impossible.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 18, 2019, 10:38:45 PM
Count hops? Refs did everything you mentioned bar the hand passes already and seem to be getting on ok. Let’s give it a chance, rather than declaring something is impossible why not give it a good test run and see if you’re right?

Declan Bonner said on OFTB that he’s not doing anything in training to adjust to the new rules yet claims they’re a failure. This is the type of nonsense we shouldn’t be listening to.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 18, 2019, 10:45:28 PM
Count hops? Refs did everything you mentioned bar the hand passes already and seem to be getting on ok. Let’s give it a chance, rather than declaring something is impossible why not give it a good test run and see if you’re right?

Declan Bonner said on OFTB that he’s not doing anything in training to adjust to the new rules yet claims they’re a failure. This is the type of nonsense we shouldn’t be listening to.

Are you saying referees always get steps right and hops? Steps are a joke at this stage. In most games I've seen double hops, referees don't call them because they nearly assume they don't happen. I watched a club game recently where the same player hopped the ball twice and no whistle.

I always like the way Tyrone and Donegal criticised so much for hand passing. Tyrone kicked it a lot in All Ireland final, more so tham Dublin and Donegal scored two iconic goals in All Ireland final from kick and catch.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 18, 2019, 10:51:47 PM
Of course refs get things wrong but I wouldn’t say that they miss double hops too often and the steps are a bit of grey area with refs seeming to allow lads more steps if the deem they are being fouled. Steps are nowhere near as big an issue in football as hurling and it’s not mentioned there at all.

The bottom line is we need to address how football is being played as it’s become a very poor spectacle and these rules need more time before anyone can say with any degree of certainty if they’re good or not.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 18, 2019, 11:00:17 PM
I'd like to see players stopped from throwing the ball into the goal. Some teams seem to be experts at it
This allows teams to handpsss the ball to death
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 18, 2019, 11:10:14 PM
Of course refs get things wrong but I wouldn’t say that they miss double hops too often and the steps are a bit of grey area with refs seeming to allow lads more steps if the deem they are being fouled. Steps are nowhere near as big an issue in football as hurling and it’s not mentioned there at all.

The bottom line is we need to address how football is being played as it’s become a very poor spectacle and these rules need more time before anyone can say with any degree of certainty if they’re good or not.

Once we allowed players take 10 steps we've made turnovers more difficult. The rule is 4. Enforce it or change it. If turnovers are more difficult then teams adjust and blanket defence is result. And double hops are a rarity because players since the age of eight solo then hop. But the next time you see it happen there will be no foul because referees are not switched on to it. I remember the two man tackle that if more than one player tackled a player it was a foul. Now it's a free every time to the defending team and usually gets a roar from the crowd on a par with a point.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 18, 2019, 11:40:06 PM
Of course refs get things wrong but I wouldn’t say that they miss double hops too often and the steps are a bit of grey area with refs seeming to allow lads more steps if the deem they are being fouled. Steps are nowhere near as big an issue in football as hurling and it’s not mentioned there at all.

The bottom line is we need to address how football is being played as it’s become a very poor spectacle and these rules need more time before anyone can say with any degree of certainty if they’re good or not.

Once we allowed players take 10 steps we've made turnovers more difficult. The rule is 4. Enforce it or change it. If turnovers are more difficult then teams adjust and blanket defence is result. And double hops are a rarity because players since the age of eight solo then hop. But the next time you see it happen there will be no foul because referees are not switched on to it. I remember the two man tackle that if more than one player tackled a player it was a foul. Now it's a free every time to the defending team and usually gets a roar from the crowd on a par with a point.

But that's a different discussion. These are the rules that are being tested, you've said they are impossible for refs yet are arguing they can't ref steps or double hops, so do we get rid of hops and let players take 10 steps?

All I'm saying is these are the rules that are in place, maybe they are not going to do anything positive for the game but at least lets give managers, players, refs and supporters time to watch and adjust to them before saying they don't work. The game is in a bad place and I'm willing to use, at least, one year of league games to see if they work or not. I don't think we should be using the league for this but as it's the only show in town I'm willing to see what happens.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: rodney trotter on January 19, 2019, 01:27:37 PM
The 3 hand pass rule not going ahead for the League. The 4 other rules to go ahead.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 19, 2019, 01:41:28 PM
The 3 hand pass rule not going ahead for the League. The 4 other rules to go ahead.

I see absolutely no sense in the sideline rule. Happy the handpass is gone.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tonto1888 on January 19, 2019, 02:29:35 PM
The 3 hand pass rule not going ahead for the League. The 4 other rules to go ahead.

Attacking mark, sideline, sin bin and???
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: themac_23 on January 19, 2019, 02:36:45 PM
what is the benefit if the attacking mark?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: tippabu on January 19, 2019, 02:41:57 PM
The 3 hand pass rule not going ahead for the League. The 4 other rules to go ahead.

Attacking mark, sideline, sin bin and???

Kick Out
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2019, 03:27:50 PM
Limit to throwball defeated by a slender margin I hear.
Price increases for Leagues and Championships passed.

I presume crowds will be up all over the place ::)
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 19, 2019, 04:05:18 PM
Limit to throwball defeated by a slender margin I hear.
Price increases for Leagues and Championships passed.

I presume crowds will be up all over the place ::)
PUC debt has to be paid off

Thank you Mr Frank Murphy
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2019, 05:17:43 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2019, 05:46:51 PM
Hand pass rule removed for McKenna cup final this evening.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2019, 05:54:32 PM
Will there be any kick in open play in it at all?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2019, 05:58:32 PM
Will there be any kick in open play in it at all?

Expecting a very high scoring game now that this rule has been removed.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Zulu on January 19, 2019, 07:09:13 PM
The one rule that definitely needed the extra games to see its effect was dropped. Still we are where we are so we'll see how it goes. I think the offensive mark and the three hand pass rule might have worked well together to change how the game is played.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: joemamas on January 19, 2019, 08:00:49 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.


Biggest winners of handpass defeat;

Teams that play and teach negative Gaelic football, I.e don’t kick the ball
Managers like Declan Bonner etc, who could not even try it out for more than a few BS games
Tha FAI
The IRFU
Anyone who dislikes Gaelic Football

Biggest losers;

Supporters,
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: JoG2 on January 19, 2019, 08:17:20 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.


Biggest winners of handpass defeat;

Teams that play and teach negative Gaelic football, I.e don’t kick the ball
Managers like Declan Bonner etc, who could not even try it out for more than a few BS games
Tha FAI
The IRFU
Anyone who dislikes Gaelic Football

Biggest losers;

Supporters,

A conservative estimate would be 98% of supporters wanted the 3 handpass rule binned
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2019, 08:23:15 PM
I spoke to about 20 people who were at Ros v Sligo and nobody not one of them said the handpass rule should be binned.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Nanderson on January 19, 2019, 09:13:55 PM
I'm wild confused about some of the rules that were on show in the mckenna cup. Frees blown for catching the ball between the 40 and 21 when its meant to be inside the 21. Also, James Morgan got 2 yellows which should have been a sin bin but instead was shown a red card??
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 19, 2019, 09:38:40 PM
I'm wild confused about some of the rules that were on show in the mckenna cup. Frees blown for catching the ball between the 40 and 21 when its meant to be inside the 21. Also, James Morgan got 2 yellows which should have been a sin bin but instead was shown a red card??

Them rules were amended.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: trailer on January 19, 2019, 10:02:54 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.


Biggest winners of handpass defeat;

Teams that play and teach negative Gaelic football, I.e don’t kick the ball
Managers like Declan Bonner etc, who could not even try it out for more than a few BS games
Tha FAI
The IRFU
Anyone who dislikes Gaelic Football

Biggest losers;

Supporters,

Retarded supporters, with learning difficulties.

Anyone who supported the hand pass rule was the enemy of Gaelic football, the GAA and Ireland in general.

 
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: mrdeeds on January 19, 2019, 10:41:32 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.


Biggest winners of handpass defeat;

Teams that play and teach negative Gaelic football, I.e don’t kick the ball
Managers like Declan Bonner etc, who could not even try it out for more than a few BS games
Tha FAI
The IRFU
Anyone who dislikes Gaelic Football

Biggest losers;

Supporters,

Retarded supporters, with learning difficulties.

Anyone who supported the hand pass rule was the enemy of Gaelic football, the GAA and Ireland in general.

Agree with the sentiment but not the description of them.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Give and Go on January 19, 2019, 11:31:36 PM
I spoke to about 20 people who were at Ros v Sligo and nobody not one of them said the handpass rule should be binned.
Are you serious? Saw a number of plays pulled up early on less than 4 hand passes, saw a pull down which should be a black card not given. Lots of people around me wanted it gone
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 19, 2019, 11:37:59 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.


Biggest winners of handpass defeat;

Teams that play and teach negative Gaelic football, I.e don’t kick the ball
Managers like Declan Bonner etc, who could not even try it out for more than a few BS games
Tha FAI
The IRFU
Anyone who dislikes Gaelic Football

Biggest losers;

Supporters,

Retarded supporters, with learning difficulties.

Anyone who supported the hand pass rule was the enemy of Gaelic football, the GAA and Ireland in general.

Your not a very nice person lad. Take a look at yourself in the mirror. Do you speak like that in the real world or is it just your online persona
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 19, 2019, 11:57:56 PM
I spoke to about 20 people who were at Ros v Sligo and nobody not one of them said the handpass rule should be binned.
Are you serious? Saw a number of plays pulled up early on less than 4 hand passes, saw a pull down which should be a black card not given. Lots of people around me wanted it gone
I can only speak for those I had contact with :-\
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on January 20, 2019, 09:19:33 AM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.

Pandering is how these rules came into being in the first place. It appears to be the GAAs preffered  method of policy / rule making these days. At least in this instance they are pandering to players, managers and the vast percentage of supporters and not a select few in the media.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Rossfan on January 20, 2019, 09:29:36 AM
How many of he "vast percentage of supporters" actually saw any of the trial rules games?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: BennyHarp on January 20, 2019, 09:31:23 AM
How many of he "vast percentage of supporters" actually saw any of the trial rules games?

Probably more than the 20 you spoke to.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Itchy on January 20, 2019, 12:07:54 PM
GAA will never get a meaningful change in the way it panders to vested interests. Football as a spectacle will continue to die a slow ugly death.

Pandering is how these rules came into being in the first place. It appears to be the GAAs preffered  method of policy / rule making these days. At least in this instance they are pandering to players, managers and the vast percentage of supporters and not a select few in the media.

See that's just untrue. A committee was set up and they came up with these ideas and sought feed back on them and ran a few trial games. The committee had fotball people and sports scientists on it. It was not a bunch of croke park suits. Did you listen to Cuthbert on offtheball,  if not you should. You are just repeating the county manager rubbish and passing it off as fact when it's not.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Sportacus on January 20, 2019, 02:17:04 PM
Watching Armagh last night confirms for me the 13 man game needs a proper look at.  Armagh have traditional forwards who I would pay to see: Jamie Clarke, Rian O’Neill, John Campbell.  But they haven’t an inch to work in, so we don’t see the best of them.  Tyrone have been in the gym big time and the modern defensive unit can close down space too easily.  Bring back the excitement,give forwards the edge - 13 aside please, and don’t chicken out of a trial after 5 minutes like we did with the handpass rule.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: DuffleKing on January 20, 2019, 06:38:33 PM
We have packed defences because forwards have been given every edge going for 20 years. There is no application of the steps rule under pressure and you are simply not allowed to tackle at speed - as you are in Hurling for example.

Biggest cheer of the night in the AG last night was pre throw in for the announcement that the handpass restriction abomination wasn't to be used in the match.

As an ardent believer in the place of and importance to our game of kicking I am at this stage embarrassed for those who thought that restricting the number of handpasses in this way was going to make a positive impact.

The game needs help if some of the traditional values are to return to the fore but anyone who thought this trial - however well intentioned - was going to help are simpletons.
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: manfromdelmonte on January 20, 2019, 08:47:27 PM
We have packed defences because forwards have been given every edge going for 20 years. There is no application of the steps rule under pressure and you are simply not allowed to tackle at speed - as you are in Hurling for example.

Biggest cheer of the night in the AG last night was pre throw in for the announcement that the handpass restriction abomination wasn't to be used in the match.

As an ardent believer in the place of and importance to our game of kicking I am at this stage embarrassed for those who thought that restricting the number of handpasses in this way was going to make a positive impact.

The game needs help if some of the traditional values are to return to the fore but anyone who thought this trial - however well intentioned - was going to help are simpletons.
this
its impossible to defend as forwards are allowed now take 3/4 steps while just bouncing the ball!!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: westbound on January 21, 2019, 02:03:04 PM
Having seen the sin-bin in operation in the Galway V Ros match yesterday, on a practical level, how will club referees manage?

yesterday the first galway black card was after 20 minutes. So you'd expect him back on at 30 minutes. Except in the next few minutes there was a couple of injuries and a 'melee' which all added time. So It was after 30 minutes before sin bin no.1 was over.

In addition, there was a second sin binning for galway after about 32 minutes (galway were down to 13 for a period). But with all the injury time played at the end of the first half, most of the second sin binning period was actually in the first half (even though he was sin binned about 3 minutes before the 35 minutes were due to be up!).

It's going to be very hard for the refs in club matches (where it's hard enough to get an upmire, let alone a linesman as well!) to deal with all this.
I've no problem with the sin bin in theory (and in intercounty matches where there are plenty of officials), but how well will it work in the club game?
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Tubberman on January 21, 2019, 02:08:04 PM
Having seen the sin-bin in operation in the Galway V Ros match yesterday, on a practical level, how will club referees manage?

yesterday the first galway black card was after 20 minutes. So you'd expect him back on at 30 minutes. Except in the next few minutes there was a couple of injuries and a 'melee' which all added time. So It was after 30 minutes before sin bin no.1 was over.

In addition, there was a second sin binning for galway after about 32 minutes (galway were down to 13 for a period). But with all the injury time played at the end of the first half, most of the second sin binning period was actually in the first half (even though he was sin binned about 3 minutes before the 35 minutes were due to be up!).

It's going to be very hard for the refs in club matches (where it's hard enough to get an upmire, let alone a linesman as well!) to deal with all this.
I've no problem with the sin bin in theory (and in intercounty matches where there are plenty of officials), but how well will it work in the club game?

I read somewhere yesterday that unlike rugby, the sin bin clock doesn't stop when the ball is out of play.
So in theory, if a player got a black card and another player was injured at the time and there was a break in play for 10 mins, the black carded player would be back on the field for the resumption of play, not having missed anything!
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: delgany on January 21, 2019, 02:15:11 PM
The sin bin and the three other changes only applies for inter county games not club games in 2019
Title: Re: Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football
Post by: Taylor on January 21, 2019, 02:37:16 PM
Having seen the sin-bin in operation in the Galway V Ros match yesterday, on a practical level, how will club referees manage?

yesterday the first galway black card was after 20 minutes. So you'd expect him back on at 30 minutes. Except in the next few minutes there was a couple of injuries and a 'melee' which all added time. So It was after 30 minutes before sin bin no.1 was over.

In addition, there was a second sin binning for galway after about 32 minutes (galway were down to 13 for a period). But with all the injury time played at the end of the first half, most o