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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: BennyHarp on July 26, 2018, 10:14:33 PM

Title: Full time professional referees
Post by: BennyHarp on July 26, 2018, 10:14:33 PM
Iíve mentioned this on another thread but I just thought Iíd see what peopleís thoughts were. Before I start I know people will baulk straight away at the professional bit, but I think it is essential that refereeing standards across the game improves significantly and if that means spending a bit of money getting it right then maybe itís worth looking into.

Iíd suggest each county has a full time professional referee, either from within the county or allocated to it. This will provide a referees board of 32 officials who will officiate only at inter county matches. I would suggest that they meet each Monday to assess the performances in each of the games that weekend then a delegation will attend a follow up meeting with a steering committee of players representatives (maybe GPA) , past players and a GAA representative to report on what was discussed and the outcome of any controversial decisions. Referees are graded on their performances and allocated games accordingly.

Outside officiating the referees will spend their time training referees in their county, visiting club games at all levels giving feedback to referees on their performances and visiting clubs to advise and help with the application of the rule book. The referee committee will also form a voice in the changing of any rules of the game.

Hopefully, better consultation between inter county referees and closer connections between the county ref and the club refs will encourage a greater level of consistency across the board and give players and supporters a bit more confidence in their referees.

Downside - they are getting paid, human nature means they will still make mistakes, the pressure will be greater and they will probably get even more abuse.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: trileacman on July 26, 2018, 11:02:33 PM
Iíve mentioned this on another thread but I just thought Iíd see what peopleís thoughts were. Before I start I know people will baulk straight away at the professional bit, but I think it is essential that refereeing standards across the game improves significantly and if that means spending a bit of money getting it right then maybe itís worth looking into.

Iíd suggest each county has a full time professional referee, either from within the county or allocated to it. This will provide a referees board of 32 officials who will officiate only at inter county matches. I would suggest that they meet each Monday to assess the performances in each of the games that weekend then a delegation will attend a follow up meeting with a steering committee of players representatives (maybe GPA) , past players and a GAA representative to report on what was discussed and the outcome of any controversial decisions. Referees are graded on their performances and allocated games accordingly.

Outside officiating the referees will spend their time training referees in their county, visiting club games at all levels giving feedback to referees on their performances and visiting clubs to advise and help with the application of the rule book. The referee committee will also form a voice in the changing of any rules of the game.

Hopefully, better consultation between inter county referees and closer connections between the county ref and the club refs will encourage a greater level of consistency across the board and give players and supporters a bit more confidence in their referees.

Downside - they are getting paid, human nature means they will still make mistakes, the pressure will be greater and they will probably get even more abuse.

Biggest downside is that by compromising on paying referees it considerably weakens the arguments about the amateur status of everyone else. If the GAA is going to pay refs how can they still get their knickers in a twist about managers lifting dough on under the table.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Fear ůn Srath BŠn on July 26, 2018, 11:14:10 PM

Biggest downside is that by compromising on paying referees it considerably weakens the arguments about the amateur status of everyone else. If the GAA is going to pay refs how can they still get their knickers in a twist about managers lifting dough on under the table.

The Association's long since been compromised, it's not like there's no money in the 'amateur' system any more, and we only need to look at the involvement of Sky, the GPA, etc.

Something needs to be done, the standard of refereeing at times is shocking, truly.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: thewobbler on July 26, 2018, 11:15:38 PM
Two things.

1. That adds up to over a million a year in salaries, before administration costs, travel costs, and other overheads. To be honest with you, Iím sick to f**king death of the rising costs of competing in GAA for clubs and members, as a large part of these increases is simply to cover administrator salaries... and the first rule of being a paid administrator is you will want paid support to share the workload.

2. The biggest problems we face with the officiating of games is that a) the rules on tackling are open to interpretation, and b) there is a culture in our game whereby cheating isnít just acceptable, itís demanded by the fans. So a referee, unfortunately, rarely gets to referee a game, but instead heís a the pantomime villain. Paid referees canít fix these problems.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: BennyHarp on July 26, 2018, 11:15:50 PM
Iíve mentioned this on another thread but I just thought Iíd see what peopleís thoughts were. Before I start I know people will baulk straight away at the professional bit, but I think it is essential that refereeing standards across the game improves significantly and if that means spending a bit of money getting it right then maybe itís worth looking into.

Iíd suggest each county has a full time professional referee, either from within the county or allocated to it. This will provide a referees board of 32 officials who will officiate only at inter county matches. I would suggest that they meet each Monday to assess the performances in each of the games that weekend then a delegation will attend a follow up meeting with a steering committee of players representatives (maybe GPA) , past players and a GAA representative to report on what was discussed and the outcome of any controversial decisions. Referees are graded on their performances and allocated games accordingly.

Outside officiating the referees will spend their time training referees in their county, visiting club games at all levels giving feedback to referees on their performances and visiting clubs to advise and help with the application of the rule book. The referee committee will also form a voice in the changing of any rules of the game.

Hopefully, better consultation between inter county referees and closer connections between the county ref and the club refs will encourage a greater level of consistency across the board and give players and supporters a bit more confidence in their referees.

Downside - they are getting paid, human nature means they will still make mistakes, the pressure will be greater and they will probably get even more abuse.

Biggest downside is that by compromising on paying referees it considerably weakens the arguments about the amateur status of everyone else. If the GAA is going to pay refs how can they still get their knickers in a twist about managers lifting dough on under the table.

Yeah I get your point but my thoughts would be that if paid CDA can work within counties then why not paid officials?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: trileacman on July 26, 2018, 11:18:40 PM

Biggest downside is that by compromising on paying referees it considerably weakens the arguments about the amateur status of everyone else. If the GAA is going to pay refs how can they still get their knickers in a twist about managers lifting dough on under the table.

The Association's long since been compromised, it's not like there's no money in the 'amateur' system any more, and we only need to look at the involvement of Sky, the GPA, etc.

Something needs to be done, the standard of refereeing at times is shocking, truly.

Most of the time it isn't really though. The inconsistency generally isn't between one minute to the next it's between one ref to another. So the way Sean Hurson refs a match is much stricter than the way Gough or Coldrick will ref it. That's the shitty thing but when you've a tackle rule as loosely defined as the GAA tackle is sure anything is possible.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: trileacman on July 26, 2018, 11:20:28 PM
Two things.

1. That adds up to over a million a year in salaries, before administration costs, travel costs, and other overheads. To be honest with you, Iím sick to f**king death of the rising costs of competing in GAA for clubs and members, as a large part of these increases is simply to cover administrator salaries... and the first rule of being a paid administrator is you will want paid support to share the workload.

2. The biggest problems we face with the officiating of games is that a) the rules on tackling are open to interpretation, and b) there is a culture in our game whereby cheating isnít just acceptable, itís demanded by the fans. So a referee, unfortunately, rarely gets to referee a game, but instead heís a the pantomime villain. Paid referees canít fix these problems.

Agreed, the tackle rule in the GAA is that if you make it look like you deserved it, you'll get the free.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: BennyHarp on July 26, 2018, 11:21:00 PM
Two things.

1. That adds up to over a million a year in salaries, before administration costs, travel costs, and other overheads. To be honest with you, Iím sick to f**king death of the rising costs of competing in GAA for clubs and members, as a large part of these increases is simply to cover administrator salaries... and the first rule of being a paid administrator is you will want paid support to share the workload.

2. The biggest problems we face with the officiating of games is that a) the rules on tackling are open to interpretation, and b) there is a culture in our game whereby cheating isnít just acceptable, itís demanded by the fans. So a referee, unfortunately, rarely gets to referee a game, but instead heís a the pantomime villain. Paid referees canít fix these problems.

Iím sure a sponsor for the refs (Specsavers as in the Scottish prem) could be a possibility to cover some of the costs but a fully functioning, active and competent referees board could help apply the rules consistently which for me is one of the most frustrating aspects of following football.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: macdanger2 on July 26, 2018, 11:21:20 PM
Not a bad idea but say if ref ☓ becomes ref for a county, how long would he have the job for? If it's not a substantial amount of time, it's going to be hard to get anyone to give up a job to take it. Also, would he have a vested interest in not training up decent refs within his own county.

Overall I wouldn't be against the idea but the details would need to be worked out carefully
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 26, 2018, 11:45:42 PM
All refs will referee the game as they see it, be that down to their own involvement in the past as players or how they believe the game should be ref! Rightly or wrongly thatís how I see it and why we have so many inconsistencies.

technical or easy fouls and should be adhered to by everyone, for me the way to get it right is this, providing they are consistent on the tackle rule (as they see it)  then the players (if they are smart) will adapt to his own interpretation..

Paying a referee wonít change that. The team that generally loses, blames the ref, shocker! One or two incidents wonít be the reason a team generally loses, the players managers make far more mistakes in a game.

Bashing referees isnít the answer to a county or a club teams woes, improving your standards should be the focus
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Baile BrigŪn 2 on July 27, 2018, 12:35:06 AM
I dont think professional referees is a pathway to professional players. They would be direct GAA employees.

But how would they become better without day jobs? Soccer referees who are full time train amateur refs during the week. Is there a market for that?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: tonto1888 on July 27, 2018, 06:18:58 PM
Two things.

1. That adds up to over a million a year in salaries, before administration costs, travel costs, and other overheads. To be honest with you, Iím sick to f**king death of the rising costs of competing in GAA for clubs and members, as a large part of these increases is simply to cover administrator salaries... and the first rule of being a paid administrator is you will want paid support to share the workload.

2. The biggest problems we face with the officiating of games is that a) the rules on tackling are open to interpretation, and b) there is a culture in our game whereby cheating isnít just acceptable, itís demanded by the fans. So a referee, unfortunately, rarely gets to referee a game, but instead heís a the pantomime villain. Paid referees canít fix these problems.

Cheating is demanded by the fans? Care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: tonto1888 on July 27, 2018, 06:20:14 PM
I think getting consistency is key. Even within games there are frees given and then not given for the same thing. Very frustrating for fans before we even think about how it must be for the players
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: BennyHarp on July 27, 2018, 07:08:22 PM
The consistency thing is my point here. By having refs discuss and debate their decisions during the Monday meeting will ultimately, hopefully lead to a greater understanding of each otherís decision making process and encourage greater consistency over time.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2018, 07:32:43 PM
Professionalism has always crept into sport where it's economically viable, regardless of the rules of the sport's governing body. There's more of an incentive for players to go pro because of the impetus to win. More winning -> more visibility for sponsors -> More revenue this year and more sponsorship revenue the next year -> greater incentives to win. The more money your team brings in, the more you can spend on improving your game, so it becomes a bit of a cycle of more spending.

Professionalism (allegedly) arrived in the GAA years ago when US-based clubs (allegedly) started paying for big name players to come out from Ireland and help them win US championships. It's (allegedly) economically viable so it (allegedly) happens regardless of the rules.

There's less of an incentive for refs to go pro since they're under the control of the governing body, but it's not impossible. We already have some paid staff in Croke Park, as well as paid development officers all over the world.

My experience at GAA conventions has been club delegates berating a part-time volunteer board for failing to provide a full-time professional standard service. This kind of abuse can motivate boards to hire full time administrators, since if you want something done right you have to pay for it. Refs are on the receiving end of the abuse but aren't in much of a position to change the rules to allow paid refs, so the powers-that-be might be a little slower to act.

In principle I wouldn't have a problem with refs joining the ranks of paid GAA people, as long as a good funding source can be found (like SpecSavers as mentioned before) and their time can be filled with productive work. Doubling up as referee tutors is definitely worthwhile.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: dec on July 27, 2018, 07:51:03 PM
Referees already get lots of abuse from both players and spectators. This must discourage a lot of people from becoming referees or continuing as referees. Changing the culture around how refs are treated would probably go further in encouraging a bigger pool of refs and raise standards.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2018, 07:56:46 PM
Referees already get lots of abuse from both players and spectators. This must discourage a lot of people from becoming referees or continuing as referees. Changing the culture around how refs are treated would probably go further in encouraging a bigger pool of refs and raise standards.

Maybe, but how do you change a culture? It's all right printing jerseys with slogans on them like "give respect, get respect," but if a coach has spent his career screaming abuse from the sideline then I couldn't see him responding too much to anything short of a yellow card.

I once saw a ref moving the ball up for every bit of dissent he got from the players, but not all refs do that. A bit of consistency might help
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: dec on July 27, 2018, 08:37:23 PM
A few days ago there was an article in the New York Times about the abuse the referees in youth sports get. A soccer referee created a Facebook page where he posts videos of parents/coaches/spectators abusing refs in the hope that shaming might make people think twice

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/18/sports/referee-parents-abuse-videos.html

"The harassment has grown so rampant that more than 70 percent of new referees in all sports quit the job within three years, according to the National Association of Sports Officials. The chief cause for the attrition, based on a survey conducted by the association, was pervasive abuse from parents and coaches."

I don't know if 70% of new GAA refs quit within 3 years or if people just never bother being refs because they know what the abuse is like.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 27, 2018, 08:49:24 PM
When I was organizing college hurling matches I once had someone (a screamer from the sideline) give out to me by email about reffing. I replied and said if reffing standards are low, it's partly because of a limited number of people willing to do the job. The low number of people willing to do the job is because of the amount of abuse they get. If you scream abuse at the ref, then you're contributing to the problem.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Champion The Wonder Horse on July 27, 2018, 09:24:28 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2018, 09:59:09 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.

Think you heard wrong, referees get expenses.. they donít get paid to hear someone abuse them for 1 hour and then confront you as you head towards the changing room, they donít get paid to take abuse from players or management.. they donít get paid to then take further abuse from trolls on discussion boards who believe they know the rules better than the referees (at county level the pass mark is very high)

As for the 1k for a team of officials Iíd like to hear more on that? Is that for hotels, dinners and travel expenses? (From Spain) think youíre making that one up to suit your pathetic post
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Insane Bolt on July 28, 2018, 08:34:30 AM
They could stamp out the verbal abuse very easily by adopting the same rule as rugby......only the captain can question a decision. This is a very simple thing to do, but HQ are very slow/reluctant to evolve.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2018, 08:51:16 AM
They could stamp out the verbal abuse very easily by adopting the same rule as rugby......only the captain can question a decision. This is a very simple thing to do, but HQ are very slow/reluctant to evolve.

In football if a referee gets verbal abuse he can black card the player, itís up to the ref to use it, hell he can even red card him, I donít take abuse from a player, why should I ?

I make mistakes, no ref gets it right all the time, why supporters/players/managers think they should call all the things they want is beyond me
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: playwiththewind1st on July 28, 2018, 10:53:28 AM
Most of the idiots who sound off about referees wouldn't recognise a rulebook if it was put in front of their noses. They have never seen one before, but I guess that's  why they're  such "experts".
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Fear ůn Srath BŠn on July 28, 2018, 12:57:43 PM
You don't have to be any expert on the rules to see when a referee is totally out of shape, and incapable of keeping up with the play.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: playwiththewind1st on July 28, 2018, 01:01:24 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Fear ůn Srath BŠn on July 28, 2018, 01:14:36 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".

Wow! Is that not a (massive) part of the problem, right there?

I know that referees must do annual personal fitness tests, etc., but surely their respective abilities to keep up with the play, or not, must be critical aspect of match fitness?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2018, 02:14:29 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".

Wow! Is that not a (massive) part of the problem, right there?

I know that referees must do annual personal fitness tests, etc., but surely their respective abilities to keep up with the play, or not, must be critical aspect of match fitness?

Heís up with play better than the supporter hanging over the fence a further 60 yards from the referee but that guy calls it! You are whatís the problem is..

Funny enough today we had our rules tests, was chatting to the coordinator and he was asked to go to a club by a manager to talk about refereeing issues the players and managers had, some mentors and clubmen also, very positive talk and near the end couple lads started questioning about certain rules, the referee set down a few question papers multiple choice, so even the answer was there, yes no true or false and far easier than hours, 30 questions, the best score was 6
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Fear ůn Srath BŠn on July 28, 2018, 02:25:38 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".

Wow! Is that not a (massive) part of the problem, right there?

I know that referees must do annual personal fitness tests, etc., but surely their respective abilities to keep up with the play, or not, must be critical aspect of match fitness?

Heís up with play better than the supporter hanging over the fence a further 60 yards from the referee but that guy calls it! You are whatís the problem is..

No need to be so defensive, and what you're saying there is not necessarily true -- if I'm beside the sideline of the ground and the play is on the sideline, and the man-in-the-middle is, erm, in the middle, he's most definitely not better placed -- blind sided and clueless.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2018, 04:34:27 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".

Wow! Is that not a (massive) part of the problem, right there?

I know that referees must do annual personal fitness tests, etc., but surely their respective abilities to keep up with the play, or not, must be critical aspect of match fitness?

Heís up with play better than the supporter hanging over the fence a further 60 yards from the referee but that guy calls it! You are whatís the problem is..

No need to be so defensive, and what you're saying there is not necessarily true -- if I'm beside the sideline of the ground and the play is on the sideline, and the man-in-the-middle is, erm, in the middle, he's most definitely not better placed -- blind sided and clueless.

So if you are closer to the play and you see it better as you are there, then of course you are closer, that was not in my post!! I said if I'm 60 yards closer to the clampit on the sideline then I should see it better, no? In most of a game, I'll be closer to the play that a supporter who stays in the one place, agree?

You havent addressed my other point on the muppets who think thye know the rules and when questioned on them knew nothing really, a referee has to call that in seconds, he doesnt get to sit down and study a rule book there and then, he gets it wrong sometimes, just like the player who shoots when he should have passed, or teh manager who takes of a player in corner forward when the problem is in midfield

Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Fear ůn Srath BŠn on July 28, 2018, 05:41:20 PM
Believe it, or not, when you're out assessing refereeing performances, you are not permitted to refer to fitness levels in your report, nor to comment on a referee's ability to "keep up with the play".

Wow! Is that not a (massive) part of the problem, right there?

I know that referees must do annual personal fitness tests, etc., but surely their respective abilities to keep up with the play, or not, must be critical aspect of match fitness?

Heís up with play better than the supporter hanging over the fence a further 60 yards from the referee but that guy calls it! You are whatís the problem is..

No need to be so defensive, and what you're saying there is not necessarily true -- if I'm beside the sideline of the ground and the play is on the sideline, and the man-in-the-middle is, erm, in the middle, he's most definitely not better placed -- blind sided and clueless.

So if you are closer to the play and you see it better as you are there, then of course you are closer, that was not in my post!! I said if I'm 60 yards closer to the clampit on the sideline then I should see it better, no? In most of a game, I'll be closer to the play that a supporter who stays in the one place, agree?

You havent addressed my other point on the muppets who think thye know the rules and when questioned on them knew nothing really, a referee has to call that in seconds, he doesnt get to sit down and study a rule book there and then, he gets it wrong sometimes, just like the player who shoots when he should have passed, or teh manager who takes of a player in corner forward when the problem is in midfield

I was referring specifically about how crucial it is, generally, for the referee to be up with the play. Something that's glaringly obvious far too often, the lack of it.

Regarding ignorance of the rules on the sidelines, of course that's a curse. Though worse, is a referee who doesn't apply them with consistency, and again, which is all too prevalent.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 28, 2018, 05:53:47 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.

Think you heard wrong, referees get expenses.. they donít get paid to hear someone abuse them for 1 hour and then confront you as you head towards the changing room, they donít get paid to take abuse from players or management.. they donít get paid to then take further abuse from trolls on discussion boards who believe they know the rules better than the referees (at county level the pass mark is very high)

As for the 1k for a team of officials Iíd like to hear more on that? Is that for hotels, dinners and travel expenses? (From Spain) think youíre making that one up to suit your pathetic post
Milltown, this is not an attack on referees or you because I really couldnít care less about the refs getting a few quid but when you say referees donít get paid, they get expenses, that suggests that there is a calculation of how much the referee is out of pocket for refereeing the game. I got a ref for a game and he told me ďthe fee is £30Ē. It was a game played local to him and he was able to do it as he wasnít working. As I say, Iíve no issue with it but is the ďit is expensesĒ just a line to get around paying tax as the ref I got was simply ďpaidĒ £30 to do the game.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: David McKeown on July 28, 2018, 06:48:46 PM
Iíve said before Iíll say again. The game at the top level is too quick too big and too professional for one single amateur ref. I donít know if the answer is professional refs or maybe more officials but I do think something needs done.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2018, 09:54:15 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.

Think you heard wrong, referees get expenses.. they donít get paid to hear someone abuse them for 1 hour and then confront you as you head towards the changing room, they donít get paid to take abuse from players or management.. they donít get paid to then take further abuse from trolls on discussion boards who believe they know the rules better than the referees (at county level the pass mark is very high)

As for the 1k for a team of officials Iíd like to hear more on that? Is that for hotels, dinners and travel expenses? (From Spain) think youíre making that one up to suit your pathetic post
Milltown, this is not an attack on referees or you because I really couldnít care less about the refs getting a few quid but when you say referees donít get paid, they get expenses, that suggests that there is a calculation of how much the referee is out of pocket for refereeing the game. I got a ref for a game and he told me ďthe fee is £30Ē. It was a game played local to him and he was able to do it as he wasnít working. As I say, Iíve no issue with it but is the ďit is expensesĒ just a line to get around paying tax as the ref I got was simply ďpaidĒ £30 to do the game.

Thatís up to you, Iíve done challenge games for free, but most cases Iíve ended up with 20 quid, unless itís at Jordanstown itís not local..

If a referee is doing it for money then heís an odd person, IMO

I did refereeing for 2 years and never claimed.. I got into refereeing because of club needed people and I was fed up with referees at the time, wrongfully though
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 28, 2018, 10:03:01 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.

Think you heard wrong, referees get expenses.. they donít get paid to hear someone abuse them for 1 hour and then confront you as you head towards the changing room, they donít get paid to take abuse from players or management.. they donít get paid to then take further abuse from trolls on discussion boards who believe they know the rules better than the referees (at county level the pass mark is very high)

As for the 1k for a team of officials Iíd like to hear more on that? Is that for hotels, dinners and travel expenses? (From Spain) think youíre making that one up to suit your pathetic post
Milltown, this is not an attack on referees or you because I really couldnít care less about the refs getting a few quid but when you say referees donít get paid, they get expenses, that suggests that there is a calculation of how much the referee is out of pocket for refereeing the game. I got a ref for a game and he told me ďthe fee is £30Ē. It was a game played local to him and he was able to do it as he wasnít working. As I say, Iíve no issue with it but is the ďit is expensesĒ just a line to get around paying tax as the ref I got was simply ďpaidĒ £30 to do the game.

Thatís up to you, Iíve done challenge games for free, but most cases Iíve ended up with 20 quid, unless itís at Jordanstown itís not local..

If a referee is doing it for money then heís an odd person, IMO

I did refereeing for 2 years and never claimed.. I got into refereeing because of club needed people and I was fed up with referees at the time, wrongfully though
Fair enough and Iíd imagine that most (maybe all) refs take it up for the same reasons as you but after a while it could possibly become a money incentive for some, especially if circumstances are bleak. I think Champion could be right that there are refs out there who are effectively semi-professional and making a neat sum each week.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2018, 10:19:09 PM
Well if they are doing that Hardstation then they are doing it for the wrong reasons, Iíd be worried if that was the case then they would be possibly throwing games to gain financially if it was a game that you could place a bet on it!

Champions story of a grand for refereeing is bullshit, Iíve asked him about to explain it, hasnít bothered to get back to me...
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Champion The Wonder Horse on July 28, 2018, 11:01:06 PM
Only reason I didn't get back was that your original contribution was not worthy of a reply. Nor is you follow-up, but since you're not going to stop, I'll humour you.

My post was not a criticism of referees. I would have no problem paying £30 or £40 to a competent official and I have found myself in the same position as hardstation outlined re. fees. Nor do I have a problem with competent referees officiating every night of the week from April through to September; in fact I would encourage them to do so. It all adds up nicely.

Regarding the £1K fees, I should have said Ä1K for a ref and four umpires from a famously parsimonious part of the country. There are probably men in your own club who could verify the story.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: playwiththewind1st on July 28, 2018, 11:21:40 PM
When I was refereeing, it was £20 a game, as far as I remember, plus mileage. If I took a team of 4 umpires to a championship game & got them a couple of pints each afterwards, I was out of pocket. So anybody who comes on here & says refs are in it to make money haven't the first idea what they're talking about.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: ONeill on July 28, 2018, 11:26:47 PM
Many referees are semi-professional as it is. One could referee a game seven days a week and at least two on Saturdays and Sundays. Clearing the guts of £300 a week tax free. And that's at the very bottom rung of the ladder. Heard a story once about a referee looking £1K for himself and his team to officiate at a colleges' game.

Think you heard wrong, referees get expenses.. they donít get paid to hear someone abuse them for 1 hour and then confront you as you head towards the changing room, they donít get paid to take abuse from players or management.. they donít get paid to then take further abuse from trolls on discussion boards who believe they know the rules better than the referees (at county level the pass mark is very high)

As for the 1k for a team of officials Iíd like to hear more on that? Is that for hotels, dinners and travel expenses? (From Spain) think youíre making that one up to suit your pathetic post
Milltown, this is not an attack on referees or you because I really couldnít care less about the refs getting a few quid but when you say referees donít get paid, they get expenses, that suggests that there is a calculation of how much the referee is out of pocket for refereeing the game. I got a ref for a game and he told me ďthe fee is £30Ē. It was a game played local to him and he was able to do it as he wasnít working. As I say, Iíve no issue with it but is the ďit is expensesĒ just a line to get around paying tax as the ref I got was simply ďpaidĒ £30 to do the game.

Thatís up to you, Iíve done challenge games for free, but most cases Iíve ended up with 20 quid, unless itís at Jordanstown itís not local..

If a referee is doing it for money then heís an odd person, IMO

I did refereeing for 2 years and never claimed.. I got into refereeing because of club needed people and I was fed up with referees at the time, wrongfully though

You take the £20?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 28, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
Iíve said before Iíll say again. The game at the top level is too quick too big and too professional for one single amateur ref. I donít know if the answer is professional refs or maybe more officials but I do think something needs done.

It's definitely time for two referees in hurling. Milwaukee Hurling Club has used twin referees for years in their pub league. Works no bother. A lot of advantages to it beside the obvious. For one thing, off-the-ball incidents are unheard of because there's always one referee looking in their direction.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: playwiththewind1st on July 28, 2018, 11:32:13 PM
Why wouldn't you take the £20? You need petrol to get you to & from a match ffs. You give up enough of your time to officiate without being out of pocket too.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 29, 2018, 01:03:09 AM
When I was refereeing, it was £20 a game, as far as I remember, plus mileage. If I took a team of 4 umpires to a championship game & got them a couple of pints each afterwards, I was out of pocket. So anybody who comes on here & says refs are in it to make money haven't the first idea what they're talking about.
You donít make the dough on the official championship games ffs. The school games, challenge matches etc. No umpires. Set your own fee.

It is possible to make a few quid and I would imagine some do. Again, I donít really give a shite that they do.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: ONeill on July 29, 2018, 09:59:22 AM
Sure refs drive big fancy cars full of linesmen.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 29, 2018, 10:10:46 AM
When I was refereeing, it was £20 a game, as far as I remember, plus mileage. If I took a team of 4 umpires to a championship game & got them a couple of pints each afterwards, I was out of pocket. So anybody who comes on here & says refs are in it to make money haven't the first idea what they're talking about.
You donít make the dough on the official championship games ffs. The school games, challenge matches etc. No umpires. Set your own fee.

It is possible to make a few quid and I would imagine some do. Again, I donít really give a shite that they do.

If you were looking to get extra money from another job, being a referee wouldnít be my choice, taking abuse during a game for £20, Iíd rather go to work on a Saturday.. school matches are on during the day, so the person doing them would need a flexible job to allow him..

But in theory a referee could be out doing ladies football camogie juvenile senior in both codes 7 days a week, you donít get paid like a wage, two payments a year, so itís not a weekly income
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Orior on July 29, 2018, 02:42:50 PM
The standard of flag waving by umpires is poor. 

In a place the size of Croke Park, the umpires arm should be fully extended!
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: CornUladh02 on July 29, 2018, 11:00:38 PM
Not be hurling fanatic but watched cork limericks today. Is it time for 2 referees in hurling? The match was so fast. The ref had bother keeping up and then when he did keep up he had done difficult calls to make! Should be trialled in a pre season comp in coming years
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 29, 2018, 11:38:52 PM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 29, 2018, 11:41:26 PM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: CornUladh02 on July 29, 2018, 11:51:01 PM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Where have I criticised the referee me know it all? I admire any ref in a game as it's not an easy job at a game warm day 70 odd thousand there and some difficult calls to make like slot of games.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 12:02:03 AM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?

He has two linesmen, one refereed last years final (excellent too he was) who talk to him throughout the game, he has four personal friends doing umpire, whom heís talking to regularly..

Having another referee and people will still say the refs interpretation of the foul is wrong! Itís about opinions. Thatís mine.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 30, 2018, 12:06:00 AM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?

He has two linesmen, one refereed last years final (excellent too he was) who talk to him throughout the game, he has four personal friends doing umpire, whom heís talking to regularly..

Having another referee and people will still say the refs interpretation of the foul is wrong! Itís about opinions. Thatís mine.
Can they advise on fouls in general play? A referee can find himself far away or have his view blocked very easily.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: CornUladh02 on July 30, 2018, 12:07:22 AM
Does being personal friends with the referee make them more qualified for the job of umpire than me or you? Is there a training need for umpires in the GAA?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 12:11:47 AM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?

He has two linesmen, one refereed last years final (excellent too he was) who talk to him throughout the game, he has four personal friends doing umpire, whom heís talking to regularly..

Having another referee and people will still say the refs interpretation of the foul is wrong! Itís about opinions. Thatís mine.
Can they advise on fouls in general play? A referee can find himself far away or have his view blocked very easily.

Did a match last year, was linesman, rigged up to the ref, before the game we were told to bring everything to the refs attention, the referee ultimately has the call but if he believed you were in better position heíll call it, based on the linesmanís call. I donít know if that answers your question but I found it very good..

All umpires at that level go through a course on umpires Corn
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 12:14:14 AM
The worst thing about this thread is non referee posters not actually understanding refereeing but come on with absurd ideas
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: hardstation on July 30, 2018, 12:17:44 AM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?

He has two linesmen, one refereed last years final (excellent too he was) who talk to him throughout the game, he has four personal friends doing umpire, whom heís talking to regularly..

Having another referee and people will still say the refs interpretation of the foul is wrong! Itís about opinions. Thatís mine.
Can they advise on fouls in general play? A referee can find himself far away or have his view blocked very easily.

Did a match last year, was linesman, rigged up to the ref, before the game we were told to bring everything to the refs attention, the referee ultimately has the call but if he believed you were in better position heíll call it, based on the linesmanís call. I donít know if that answers your question but I found it very good..

All umpires at that level go through a course on umpires Corn
I suppose it kind of does. I would have thought that you (and any ref) would have been in support of a 2nd ref. I would have thought extra back up or support would have been greatly welcomed. Interesting that you donít seem too fussed.

Probably donít want to split the £20.  :)
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 12:33:51 AM
Iíd much prefer at all games umpires and linesmen... two refs is just more confusing. Sure the auld boy whoís struggling to walk and see is all you need on the line.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: trileacman on July 30, 2018, 12:34:54 AM
Is it just me then or do hurling refs interpret the rules just whatever way they want? Not that it takes away from the spectacle but Jesus theyíre very lax about steps, charging and throw balls, even more so than footballl refs.

If football refs were that slack about pulling for those 3 offences Iíd say theyíd get a bollixing on here.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 12:38:22 AM
Football is pure dung. Made up of people trying to con the ref. Old style were men men and got on with the game is lost now.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: BennyHarp on July 30, 2018, 01:00:27 AM
The worst thing about this thread is non referee posters not actually understanding refereeing but come on with absurd ideas

My original post wasn't meant to be a dig at referees. On the contrary it was just a suggestion to try and boost the profile and status of the referee and for the top referees to possibly be given responsible for developing a greater level of consistency amongst themselves whilst trying to develop the same amongst refs in their county. If that means throwing a bit of money at it, then fair enough.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 01:14:26 AM
The worst thing about this thread is non referee posters not actually understanding refereeing but come on with absurd ideas

My original post wasn't meant to be a dig at referees. On the contrary it was just a suggestion to try and boost the profile and status of the referee and for the top referees to possibly be given responsible for developing a greater level of consistency amongst themselves whilst trying to develop the same amongst refs in their county. If that means throwing a bit of money at it, then fair enough.

Itís part of the game, the ref has his job the players and manager had theirs.. if players perfected the tackle then weíd be grand, there are games and you just wonder, WTF! Blow the whistle all the time and youíre not letting the game flow, donít blow the whistle and heís losing control and the players are blaming you for their handbags!

The consistency is impossible, the games arenít consistent and players arenít consistent, not one referee gives a toss to who wins, lets make that abundantly clear. Heíll try his best and will make mistakes.. stop focusing in on the ref, Iíve noticed the amount of gurning now is desperate! But I suppose the ref is the easier target, how making them professional will improve that, I donít know, would need to be decent money though for a man to leave his job
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: David McKeown on July 30, 2018, 05:12:38 PM
Todayís ref got nearly all the right calls, you not being a hurling man, as you have said, know nothing about hurling. Any hurling man Iíve spoken to didnít once talk about the ref
Ref did well today. Though what do you make of his general suggestion of having 2 refs, milltown?

He has two linesmen, one refereed last years final (excellent too he was) who talk to him throughout the game, he has four personal friends doing umpire, whom heís talking to regularly..

Having another referee and people will still say the refs interpretation of the foul is wrong! Itís about opinions. Thatís mine.
Can they advise on fouls in general play? A referee can find himself far away or have his view blocked very easily.

Did a match last year, was linesman, rigged up to the ref, before the game we were told to bring everything to the refs attention, the referee ultimately has the call but if he believed you were in better position heíll call it, based on the linesmanís call. I donít know if that answers your question but I found it very good..

All umpires at that level go through a course on umpires Corn

All for this but is it permissible under the rules? My understanding is the rules only allow the other officials to bring aggressive fouls to the attention of the referee. Allowing more help for the referee may address many of the issues that currently exist.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 30, 2018, 06:50:19 PM
It happens, Iíve brought to the attention of the referee if scores or wides I believe, me being in better position than the umpires (sun in eyes, angle of shot, not enough distance behind nets to gauge flight) is incorrect, again the ref can overrule linesman and umpire

Itís in the rules, but the ruling is I may bring to the attention of the referee on an issue, itís up to the referee whether he goes with it,. I canít as a linesman stop play but I can inform him live, he can blow whistle if he wants. But trust me they are well informed. The good refs constantly talk
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Champion The Wonder Horse on July 30, 2018, 11:16:35 PM
It happens, Iíve brought to the attention of the referee if scores or wides I believe, me being in better position than the umpires (sun in eyes, angle of shot, not enough distance behind nets to gauge flight) is incorrect, again the ref can overrule linesman and umpire

Itís in the rules, but the ruling is I may bring to the attention of the referee on an issue, itís up to the referee whether he goes with it,. I canít as a linesman stop play but I can inform him live, he can blow whistle if he wants. But trust me they are well informed. The good refs constantly talk

Would you ever criticise a referee?
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: David McKeown on July 30, 2018, 11:30:58 PM
It happens, Iíve brought to the attention of the referee if scores or wides I believe, me being in better position than the umpires (sun in eyes, angle of shot, not enough distance behind nets to gauge flight) is incorrect, again the ref can overrule linesman and umpire

Itís in the rules, but the ruling is I may bring to the attention of the referee on an issue, itís up to the referee whether he goes with it,. I canít as a linesman stop play but I can inform him live, he can blow whistle if he wants. But trust me they are well informed. The good refs constantly talk

Oh I have no problem with it although i have never refereed in GAA matches I have in other sports and the more help that can be provided the better.  The point I am making is that I would maybe expand the remit of the linesmen to give even more assistance and hopefully cut down on the do yer job linesman shouts that are often heard at games.
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 31, 2018, 12:18:53 AM
It happens, Iíve brought to the attention of the referee if scores or wides I believe, me being in better position than the umpires (sun in eyes, angle of shot, not enough distance behind nets to gauge flight) is incorrect, again the ref can overrule linesman and umpire

Itís in the rules, but the ruling is I may bring to the attention of the referee on an issue, itís up to the referee whether he goes with it,. I canít as a linesman stop play but I can inform him live, he can blow whistle if he wants. But trust me they are well informed. The good refs constantly talk

Would you ever criticise a referee?

If Iím watching my club as a supporter and when I took my senior team (Iíd been refereeing 3 years at the time )I did it regularly, i tried my best not to be too critical but Iím a passionate clubman
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 31, 2018, 12:20:23 AM
It happens, Iíve brought to the attention of the referee if scores or wides I believe, me being in better position than the umpires (sun in eyes, angle of shot, not enough distance behind nets to gauge flight) is incorrect, again the ref can overrule linesman and umpire

Itís in the rules, but the ruling is I may bring to the attention of the referee on an issue, itís up to the referee whether he goes with it,. I canít as a linesman stop play but I can inform him live, he can blow whistle if he wants. But trust me they are well informed. The good refs constantly talk

Oh I have no problem with it although i have never refereed in GAA matches I have in other sports and the more help that can be provided the better.  The point I am making is that I would maybe expand the remit of the linesmen to give even more assistance and hopefully cut down on the do yer job linesman shouts that are often heard at games.

The above will happen when the technology is available, generally latter stages of the championship unfortunately
Title: Re: Full time professional referees
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2020, 03:16:23 PM
David Gough questions appropriateness of All-Ireland red card sanction

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/david-gough-questions-appropriateness-of-all-ireland-red-card-sanction-1.4138691

Meath referee gave wide-ranging address on rules at weekendís GAA coaching conference
about 10 hours ago

SeŠn Moran

 
All-Ireland football referee David Gough has questioned to what extent the sending-off of Jonny Cooper in last Septemberís drawn final was justified by the nature of his conduct.

In a wide-ranging assessment of the playing rules delivered at Saturdayís annual GAA Games Development Conference in Croke Park and expanded on with this newspaper, the Meath official explained how, under the current rules, the red card shown to the Dublin defender was correctly administered for three Ďtickingí or Ďnotingí offences but queried whether it was a proportionate response.

The remarks were initially made during Saturdayís presentation by Gough and David Hassan, chair of the standing committee on the playing rules.

Titled, ĎMaking playing rules easy to read, remember and apply,í it confirmed that significant proposals for change in how the GAA treats foul play are being drafted.

Hassan in his introduction, said that the rules committee (SCPR) was attempting to ďmake rules easier to understand and implementĒ and ďto create conditions in which it no longer pays to foulĒ.

He pointed out that the current playing rules were drafted 35 years ago and that they were overdue simplification or rationalising.

In his own words, the committee wasnít looking to ďrewriteĒ but ďeditĒ the playing rules of football and hurling along the lines of Ďclassificationí rather than Ďcategorisationí Ė which he accepted mightnít sound very different but that the latter would be a broader heading than the current regulatory framework.

During his presentation, Gough compared the red card issued to Kilkenny hurler Richie Hogan for a head-high challenge on Cathal Barrett Ė an infraction assessed as Ďdangerousí or Ďrecklessí play Ė with that given to Cooper for repeated fouling.

Asked on Monday was it not desirable that serial fouling needed to be deterred he agreed.

ďAbsolutely but it would be looking at a sinbin option [the recently-introduced punishment for a black card]. Iím sure that if three Ďnotingsí were punished by the sinbin, a player would have the opportunity to go off, calm down and think about what heís doing before coming back onto the field of play.


ďIf it happens again, obviously he goes off for good but Iím not sure the punishment was proportionate in Jonny Cooperís case in the same way as when Richie Hogan was sent off in the hurling final for a head-high challenge.Ē

Prescriptive language
He also supported Hassanís arguments to streamline the rule book and agreed with his distinction between classified and categorised fouls, outlining the benefit of the former approach compared with the current need to label all infractions by reference to 43 different rules.

ďThe advantage is that we donít have to think about the very prescriptive language of the rules on the field of play. We donít have to look at an incident anymore and see if it exactly fits the prescriptive language of the rule book.

ďFor example: Ďto body collide with an opponent for the purpose of taking him out of the field if playí Ė so you have to have a collision and you have to deem that itís taking the player out of a movement on the field of play.

ďIdeally we shouldnít be trying to fit incidents of foul play into one of 43 different rules. We just need to distinguish between rough, cynical and dangerous. A lot of fouls at the moment are cynical but donít fit into the current category.

ďA player plays the ball off and goes for a return pass when bearing down on goal. Heís held by the jersey so he canít get a scoring opportunity but we can only give that as a Ďnotingí offence because itís not a deliberate pull-down so itís not covered by the black card.

ďThereís any number of cynical fouls occurring at the moment but we canít give a black card because the language of the rules is so prescriptive.Ē

Speaking from a personal point of view, he advocated additional sanction for any cynical play that takes place within 20 metres of the goal and intended to prevent an attacking player from creating a goalscoring opportunity.


ďI may be the only one still banging on about this but I still have an issue with denying a team or player a scoring opportunity, particularly within the 30- or 20-metre line. Awarding a black card and free kick isnít adequate. The scoring opportunity should be given back; otherwise it still pays to foul.

Cynical fouling
ďIf you were to say that a black card within the 20-metre line results in being ordered off the field and a penalty, weíre not going to see as many incidents of deliberate pull-downs, deliberate trips or body collides intended to stop scoring opportunities. Weíre at a stage now in inter-county football that itís Ďwin at all costsí Ė doing whatever you need to do, regardless of rules, to ensure your team wins.

ďThe GAA needs to counter this by saying that we equally will do anything we need to do, through the rules, to make sure that it doesnít pay to foul.Ē

Also on the horizon are moves to deal with cynical play in hurling. When footballís black card was introduced six years ago, hurling was exempted from the sanction because the same problem was deemed not to exist.

On Saturday, David Hassan revealed that match research by the SCPR had indicated that the level of cynical fouling in hurling was at least as high as in football Ė if not higher, now that the deterrent of the black card had been introduced to the latter game.

Any proposals on the matter are not expected before this yearís annual congress in February but will have to be passed at some stage and there would be a high probability that any moves to extend the black card would meet resistance from hurling counties.