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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 10:37:37 AM

Title: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 10:37:37 AM
Living in Barcelona, this is naturally a topic I'm following closely and living through on a daily basis. I'm curious if anyone else on the board is follow the situation closely, has any opinions on it etc.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on September 21, 2017, 10:40:06 AM
Living in Barcelona, this is naturally a topic I'm following closely and living through on a daily basis. I'm curious if anyone else on the board is follow the situation closely, has any opinions on it etc.

I'm not as I've no faith in the MSM reports coming out of Spain.
I'd love to know your thoughts?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 21, 2017, 11:04:50 AM
Spanish government playing into the hands of the Catalan nationalists, hopefully they overreact even further and push a few on the fence voters towards voting for separation. What happens if there is a vote for independence will be very interesting.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Denn Forever on September 21, 2017, 11:33:24 AM
Hasn't the Catalan region always been pushing indendence?  I suppose if they get separation, the Basque region will be pushing and be sorry they declared peace.

Was the Catalan region a Franko strong hold during the Spanish civil war?  Why has this push for seperation suddenly come to world attention?  Has there been a catalytic event?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 11:50:09 AM
First off, I'm a neutral observer. Long term, the independence question is unlikely to affect me.

There are a lot of forces at play here. General sentiment would be that the overall result would continue to be a No vote but they have aggressivley pushed ahead with it. Whilst the majority of the Catalan population might have voted No, undermining their autonomy  is a very dangerous move and could end up pushing a lot of No voters towards Yes

Madrid and Spain's constitutional court have declared the referendum to be illegal. Fair enough. Cracking down in the form of raiding printworks to seize ballot papers and leaflets, arresting politicians and threatening municipal employees with prosecuton is a completely over the top and draconian reaction.

The protests last night were absolutely enormous. There were a million on the streets of Barcelona for the "Diada" a few weeks ago, and Barcelona is frequently referred to as the least Catalan place in Catalunya. If there's such pro independence sentiment here, provoking it does not seem wise. The Spanish foreign minister yesterday, ironically drew parallels between the independence leaders and Franco and Hitler.

On the other hand, the pro independence movement is hardly without fault either. The separatists hold a majority of seats in the Generalitat but this didn't come from a majority of the popular vote, so their mandate to hold the referendum is questionable to begin with. I'm no expert on Spanish law, but the referendum does appear to be illegal based on the constitution. (Then again, Maggie Thathcher thought we were all as British as Finchley). Times change, constitutions change, or at least should change. There are reports of intimidation of local government officials in towns across Catalunya who have not agreed to stage the vote. There is propaganda everywhere -  a lot of it coming out of the Catalan public purse.

There really is the potential for things to kick off here. Catalunya and Barcelona have a long history of political action, revolution and anarchy. This might just be the next round of it. One way or another, October 1st is going to be absolutely monumental.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on September 21, 2017, 12:11:38 PM
Good luck to them I say. I hope they vote to be independent. And that the Basques also get their nation. The reaction of Madrid shows how desperate those in control can get when they see power and money slipping away.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: theyellowbus on September 21, 2017, 12:16:31 PM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on September 21, 2017, 12:18:13 PM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?


Cork?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 12:20:08 PM
Good luck to them I say. I hope they vote to be independent. And that the Basques also get their nation. The reaction of Madrid shows how desperate those in control can get when they see power and money slipping away.

Ridiculously simplistic take on it. Who to you refer to when you say "good luck to them"? The pro independence voters? What about the majority of the population that are anti independence?

Hasn't the Catalan region always been pushing indendence?  I suppose if they get separation, the Basque region will be pushing and be sorry they declared peace.

Was the Catalan region a Franko strong hold during the Spanish civil war?  Why has this push for seperation suddenly come to world attention?  Has there been a catalytic event?

Again, ridiculously simplistic. There has always been a Catalan independence movement. Recently, it has become increasingly popular. The regional government in Catalunya is staging (or at least intending to stage) what they say is a legally binding referendum on October 1st. This has been rejected by Madrid. That's why it's prominent at the minute.

No, it wasn't a Franco stronghold. It was part of the republic and at various times ruled by communists and anarchists.

Pro independence sentiment in the Basque country is nowhere near the levels of Catalunya. Different scenario altogether. The basque region didn't "declare peace". One armed group did.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: theyellowbus on September 21, 2017, 12:30:39 PM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?


Cork?

I actually thought about the Munster republic during the civil war when i was posting that.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Walter Cronc on September 21, 2017, 12:33:40 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on September 21, 2017, 12:34:37 PM




Again, ridiculously simplistic. There has always been a Catalan independence movement. Recently, it has become increasingly popular. The regional government in Catalunya is staging (or at least intending to stage) what they say is a legally binding referendum on October 1st. This has been rejected by Madrid. That's why it's prominent at the minute.

No, it wasn't a Franco stronghold. It was part of the republic and at various times ruled by communists and anarchists.

Pro independence sentiment in the Basque country is nowhere near the levels of Catalunya. Different scenario altogether. The basque region didn't "declare peace". One armed group did.

Is this in correlation with the growing Catalan economy?
Are the independence movement credited with the growing regional economy or is it seen as Spanish aided?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 12:41:39 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

People are perfectly entitled to their opinions. I'm perfectly entitled to ask where that opinion comes from or how they justify it.

The purpose was to start a discussion because the situation is a whole lot more complex than "big bad Madrid won't let the Catalans have their way." I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on September 21, 2017, 12:43:20 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Walter Cronc on September 21, 2017, 12:43:57 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

People are perfectly entitled to their opinions. I'm perfectly entitled to ask where that opinion comes from or how they justify it.

The purpose was to start a discussion because the situation is a whole lot more complex than "big bad Madrid won't let the Catalans have their way." I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.

 ;D

You can take the boy out of Belfast....
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on September 21, 2017, 12:46:43 PM
Quote
I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.


Cracker.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 12:48:00 PM
Is this in correlation with the growing Catalan economy?
Are the independence movement credited with the growing regional economy or is it seen as Spanish aided?

Catalunya has always been comparatively prosperous to the rest of the country, greater Madrid excluded. I wouldn't say the independence movement is particularly credited but there is obviously widespread disatisfaction (with perhaps some justification) with Catalans paying more than their fair share.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 12:49:01 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Feel free to actually engage on the points. Who do you hope gets their independence? Why?

Quote
I haven't criticised anyone. I'm playing devil's advocate you complete f**king numpty.


Cracker.

Congratulations, you get jokes.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: guy crouchback on September 21, 2017, 03:40:04 PM
if the EU could agree in advance processes to incorporate separatist areas from existing  EU states directly into the union, it could provide a simple road map for this.

sure the lager countries would not be too happy about it but if its the will of the people they cannot really object. plus the EU could agree a mechanisms to off set financial loss (oil or gas or wherever).

its not that long ago that Europe was more city states or small provinces then nations. especially in central Europe the notion of nationality is a reasonably new one.

its hard to see why separatist regions could not be seamlessly incorporated into the Eu if they already send representatives to the European Parliament.

this is off the top of my head stuff so there is a lot of holes in it but i cannot see any massive roadblocks to it.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 21, 2017, 05:12:54 PM
Czechoslovakia split in two so peacefully that many people didn't even notice. If Spain were to let go of its regions then I hope it does so peacefully, but right now the way the Spanish government is handling this looks a bit ominous. There are powerful forces they're dealing with. They'd be well advised to tread carefully.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: dec on September 21, 2017, 07:52:27 PM
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 21, 2017, 08:04:23 PM
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?

Almost certainly not. It's too lucrative for everyone involved.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: red hander on September 21, 2017, 08:25:52 PM
I know the Basques will be looking at this closely, but are there any other regions of Spain where this could impact. I'm thinking maybe of Galicia. I don't know that much, but I believe there's a strong Celtic influence in that region. I'm just interested as I did a bit of travelling in the interior (as opposed to the resorts) in my time, and always preferred Madrid and its vibe to Barcelona
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on September 21, 2017, 10:17:28 PM
If Catalonia becomes independent will FC Barcelona leave La Liga? Will that be the end of El Classico other than in Europe and Barcelona win the Catalan double every year?

We will always have the El Classic Midlands. Longford Town V Athlone Town
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: omaghjoe on September 21, 2017, 10:52:10 PM
Ive been following it sporadically and Im wondering what’s the difference with this and the last referendum a few years back that Madrid called as illegal but went ahead anyway?

Didn’t the pro independence Catalan MPs sign a pact that they would declare sovereignty if not allowed a legally binding referendum? Aren’t they in a majority? Are they likely to follow through with this?

Also I don’t understand…. if a million feel they need to take to the streets, you would reckon this would equate to having the numbers in a referendum? If they don’t have the numbers with so many on the streets then opinion must be super polarised. Is there a generational divide?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: trileacman on September 22, 2017, 12:21:25 AM
Good thread gallsman and great input.

I'd have been in the pro Catalan camp and thought this recent action by Francos blancos in Madrid particularly Dracoian but you make good points. Any referendum should be independent and run within the rule of law. Why should a pro-independence regional government be allowed to arrange and process their own inde ref? Is there not a serious chance of vote-rigging in such a scenario.

Again the EU would be best to actively discourage this type of secession. It is essentially a supra-national organistiaon  that promotes integration. This type of movement flys in the face of that.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on September 22, 2017, 12:54:37 AM
Political arrangements tend to break down when there is economic chaos . Belgium is shaky enough as well.
Spain is like a mini empire with lots of regional identities.  Franco must be very pissed off in hell this evening.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 22, 2017, 05:24:07 AM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: omaghjoe on September 22, 2017, 05:58:51 AM
I still think we are a long way of a federal EU yet were they can dictate who joins. They are still only as strong as each member state allows them to be and any undermining of their soverignity like this would obvoiusly be opposed. I would be quite sure that the federalist within the EU would be happy enough for the countries to fragment and come under the banner of the EU much like the Holy Roman Empire or Ottoman Empire but I think we are a long way from that happening as the soverign states are still were the power lies at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 22, 2017, 06:11:57 PM
Czechoslovakia split in two so peacefully that many people didn't even notice. If Spain were to let go of its regions then I hope it does so peacefully, but right now the way the Spanish government is handling this looks a bit ominous. There are powerful forces they're dealing with. They'd be well advised to tread carefully.

Funny I was having conversation on Cataluña today and the fella mentioned Czechoslovakia breakup (he was living in Bratislava for 4-5 years up until recently).

While pretty peaceful, apparently cross border trade froze almost to a standstill. Not sure why exactly but a similar outcome here would obviously be disastrous
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on September 22, 2017, 09:09:35 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 22, 2017, 10:08:41 PM
Lots out on the streets tonight.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Gold on September 23, 2017, 12:01:57 AM
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 23, 2017, 12:03:50 AM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 23, 2017, 12:42:29 AM
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on September 23, 2017, 07:52:56 AM


Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Yes, there is no right or wrong in this. The fallacy that democracy = just = good. It is our best model but the idea is different from the reality and it's too easy to hide behind the idea.


Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on September 23, 2017, 08:17:53 AM
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Well if the sample is big enough then those changing their mind or new voters joining the sample should reflect the breakdown. Doesnt always happen like that though as for example younger voters would be pro EU or pro Scottish independence etc. I'm also presuming a 50.0001% will result in a re-run. Like it or not 50%+1 is the only answer. Supermajorities sounds like a doomsday plan schemed up by the DUP along with repartition
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on September 23, 2017, 08:23:26 AM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit

It was only stupid because Cameron didn't actually bother to think brexit might happen. It wasn't a vote for a or b. People voted for whatever fantasy they were allowed to believe may happen - farce
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 23, 2017, 09:28:30 AM
http://www.ecfr.eu/article/commentary_three_myths_about_catalonias_independence_movement

Excellent article that anyone looking from the outside in would do well to read. In my view Cataluña has been hijacked by a handful of manipulative, populist politicians. Am no fan of Rajoy's but the Spanish constitution gives him no option but to do all he can to defend unity. The people riding roughshod over democratic process are guys like Puidgemont and Juncosa.

Eamonn when there was civil war on the streets, as a Catholic nationalist, I would have said 50%+1 fine. The argument can hardly be made that we are second class citizens now and a 50%+1 vote would see innocent Catholics die by the dozens in fairly short order I would think, so no, I wouldn't be in favour of it.

Maybe 2/3 is too much but Cataluña overwhelmingly supported reform of the constitution in 77. Look at the historic opinion polls over last 10-15 years (see the economist this week), and to me it is clear this is about economics more than anything else.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on September 23, 2017, 10:11:30 AM
Lots out on the streets tonight.

You for or against ?

I've no preference one way or the other as I'll likely be long gone before anything happens.

However, if I was forced to choose, I'd fall on the side of No. I've no cultural affiliation so would vote on the political and economic implications alone. Again though, that risks being to simplistic. The guy who sits next to me in work is born and raised in Barcelona. So were his wife and his parents. They speak Spanish at home (obviously can speak catalan too). He is both Catalan and Spanish, and proud to be both. He can't hang out a Spanish flag the way his neighbours hang out an independence flag without getting abuse from neighbors. His kids can't go to a school where they speak Spanish. The whole myth presented to the outside world is that too be Catalan is to be Pro independence.

Why? Why give a veto to a third of the voters? Would you be okay for a 2/3 majority requirement for people in Northern Ireland voting in a border poll?

Supermajorities are an established concept established to ensure that proposed changes have not just majority support but overwhelming majority support. If 50.001% of an electorate can change a constitution, what happens the day after, when a few of them change their mind? Or a few thousand new voters are eligible who would have voted the other way?

If you can't understand this, well...

Well if the sample is big enough then those changing their mind or new voters joining the sample should reflect the breakdown. Doesnt always happen like that though as for example younger voters would be pro EU or pro Scottish independence etc. I'm also presuming a 50.0001% will result in a re-run. Like it or not 50%+1 is the only answer. Supermajorities sounds like a doomsday plan schemed up by the DUP along with repartition
The thing about Brexit is the voters were not informed. Cameron thought it would be a piece of piss. the people were angry. they decided to protest.
the Tories hadn't planned anything. The country was thrown into a process that was not good for it.
Now maybe only 40% of people want Brexit.

NI is different. It is not economic. And it is polarised.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9UU8CiFEYw
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: StGallsGAA on September 23, 2017, 10:30:17 AM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?   
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 23, 2017, 10:35:34 AM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 23, 2017, 12:16:28 PM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluña goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 23, 2017, 12:40:17 PM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluña goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

If it goes, it sets constitutional and legislative precedent. Beyond that, the two independence movements are completely different.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: armaghniac on September 24, 2017, 10:07:58 AM
The different parts of Spain are the problem. Most Catalans would probably settle for devo max, but it is tricky when every part of Spain has a different level of autonomy.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 24, 2017, 10:56:01 AM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluña goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

The Basques get to keep their tax receipts and are generally content with being a highly autonomous region. If you go up into the mountains it's a different story but in the major towns and cities (along with pretty much all of Álava).
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 24, 2017, 01:15:36 PM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluña goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

The Basques get to keep their tax receipts and are generally content with being a highly autonomous region. If you go up into the mountains it's a different story but in the major towns and cities (along with pretty much all of Álava).

I'm aware (i'm married to a Basque) but the precedent set would still increase chances significantly. Wouldn't happen overnight but would happen before any other region, so I'd argue the answer to St Galls question would be "Yes, if anyone else leaves after Cataluña, the Basques would almost certainly be next"
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on September 24, 2017, 01:55:14 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
What's the required majority figure deemed enough to carry a border poll?  50.01% v49.99%?
I doubt if such a close race will come to pass in the  Catalan referendum
There is an overwhelming political and popular mandate for holding the independence  referendum and a confident prediction of a resounding yes vote.

Here's one of the many polls but one based on the intentions of  'definite' voters
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html (http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html)

Kosovo republic still hasn't received  full intl recognition yet, though it has acquired full football intl status.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 24, 2017, 04:58:19 PM
Presumably if Catalonia goes the Basques will be next?

No. Completely different independence question altogether.

Why? If Cataluña goes, the chances of basques going increases exponentially I would think

The Basques get to keep their tax receipts and are generally content with being a highly autonomous region. If you go up into the mountains it's a different story but in the major towns and cities (along with pretty much all of Álava).

I'm aware (i'm married to a Basque) but the precedent set would still increase chances significantly. Wouldn't happen overnight but would happen before any other region, so I'd argue the answer to St Galls question would be "Yes, if anyone else leaves after Cataluña, the Basques would almost certainly be next"

I'd agree that they'd be the next if Spain were to break up further but I don't think Catalan independence will prove to be a catalyst for the Basques to establish an independent state. I think it would have more of an effect in the rest of the Catalan countries (Valencia and the Balearics). But it's a matter of opinion really, I'm unsure if the vote will be able to go ahead in Catalunya anyway with the extra police and ballot papers stolen.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on September 24, 2017, 05:52:58 PM
It's a fiasco by this stage, Madrid delivering 100 Christmases at once to the separatists. Anything from this point on is inconsequential in terms of votes cast etc.. Longterm irreparable damage has been done and god knows how Madrid can get this situation back on an even keel.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 24, 2017, 06:00:55 PM
I'd agree that they'd be the next if Spain were to break up further but I don't think Catalan independence will prove to be a catalyst for the Basques to establish an independent state. I think it would have more of an effect in the rest of the Catalan countries (Valencia and the Balearics). But it's a matter of opinion really, I'm unsure if the vote will be able to go ahead in Catalunya anyway with the extra police and ballot papers stolen.

This is the point I was trying to make - I don't think Basque independence is any more or less likely because of this.

It's a fiasco by this stage, Madrid delivering 100 Christmases at once to the separatists. Anything from this point on is inconsequential in terms of votes cast etc.. Longterm irreparable damage has been done and god knows how Madrid can get this situation back on an even keel.

That is certainly true. Spanish politics at a local, regional and national level is very fragmented at the minute. Rajoy is in a very precarious position with a minority government.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 24, 2017, 10:33:05 PM
Not seen it yet but Puigdemont was apparently ripped to shreds by a Catalan journalist on his weekly Sunday evening show. Twitter saying the guy has done more damage to the independence movement in 1hr than the Government in 6 years.

Journalist is normally very good so looking forward to this immensely! Puigdemont is about as mediocre as they come. Some of those in Storming would make him look bad...
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 24, 2017, 10:39:46 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
What's the required majority figure deemed enough to carry a border poll?  50.01% v49.99%?
I doubt if such a close race will come to pass in the  Catalan referendum
There is an overwhelming political and popular mandate for holding the independence  referendum and a confident prediction of a resounding yes vote.

Here's one of the many polls but one based on the intentions of  'definite' voters
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html (http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html)

Kosovo republic still hasn't received  full intl recognition yet, though it has acquired full football intl status.

Overwhelming political mandate? They basically illegally forced through legislation to allow the referendum. Although the Catalan parliament had majority of seats in favour of independence (52 to 48, I think it was, hardly overwhelming), this did not represent a majority of the popular vote

The tragedy is that the "no" vote will be split between those not voting as don't want to legitimise the referendum and those that vote no, meaning there could easily be this unilateral declaration of independence after a yes vote despite the participation rates being extremely low.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 24, 2017, 10:46:19 PM
Those no voters refusing to turn up will have themselves to blame in those circumstances, as they've been clear from the start that Sí means Sí regardless of turnout.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 24, 2017, 11:08:00 PM
Those no voters refusing to turn up will have themselves to blame in those circumstances, as they've been clear from the start that Sí means Sí regardless of turnout.

That is one way of looking at it. Another is that the people who started disregarding due democratic process were the independentistas and the "referendum" has already been ruled illegal. In my view they are in no way deserving of sympathy.

Even if central government response has appeared heavy handed, this is exactly what independentistas wanted.

I just can't get over the surge in support for independence since "la crisis". To me it just smacks of callous economic opportunism and self-interest, wrapped up in this "different language and culture" bollocks. Far from the only country with more than one language, and the Catalan culture is more similar to culture in rest of Spain than it is to anywhere else, even if there are some differences.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 25, 2017, 12:15:07 AM
Those no voters refusing to turn up will have themselves to blame in those circumstances, as they've been clear from the start that Sí means Sí regardless of turnout.

Nah - it doesn't matter what Puigdemont says. The referendum is illegal and unconstitutional. The legislation brought through the Generalitat broke parliamentary rules so the "democracy in action" line is balls.

Why would no voters bother to turn up in such circumstances? All they'd do is lend legitimacy to the whole debacle.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 25, 2017, 08:19:32 AM
Those no voters refusing to turn up will have themselves to blame in those circumstances, as they've been clear from the start that Sí means Sí regardless of turnout.

Nah - it doesn't matter what Puigdemont says. The referendum is illegal and unconstitutional. The legislation brought through the Generalitat broke parliamentary rules so the "democracy in action" line is balls.

Why would no voters bother to turn up in such circumstances? All they'd do is lend legitimacy to the whole debacle.

It depends through which prism you view the situation. Consistently denying a region/country which sees itself as distinct the opportunity for self-determination legitimises anti-constitutional action in my opinion. AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue. It would be a bit like a Frenchman saying in 1917 or 1918 that Ireland shouldn't be able to vote on independence because in English law it says we can't (I now it's not an identical situation but you understand the point I'm trying to make).
This is what Madrid gets for centralising everything there and looking down their noses at the rest of the country. Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 25, 2017, 10:26:16 AM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on September 25, 2017, 11:01:16 AM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
What's the required majority figure deemed enough to carry a border poll?  50.01% v49.99%?
I doubt if such a close race will come to pass in the  Catalan referendum
There is an overwhelming political and popular mandate for holding the independence  referendum and a confident prediction of a resounding yes vote.

Here's one of the many polls but one based on the intentions of  'definite' voters
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html (http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html)

Kosovo republic still hasn't received  full intl recognition yet, though it has acquired full football intl status.

Overwhelming political mandate? They basically illegally forced through legislation to allow the referendum. Although the Catalan parliament had majority of seats in favour of independence (52 to 48, I think it was, hardly overwhelming), this did not represent a majority of the popular vote

Pro-sovereignty coalition has a majority of 20 or so in the Catalan parliament
The popular mandate for holding a referendum was overwhelming in favour of, some 75%  and that still continues.
Latest polls, despite the misleading headlines  and blatant spin in this article from El Pais, the polls still indicate an overwhelming yes vote
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/21/inenglish/1500633835_182589.html (https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/21/inenglish/1500633835_182589.html)
 "67.5% of people polled by the CEO said they will vote in the October 1 referendum if it goes ahead, with 62.4% of this group saying they would vote yes and 37.6% saying they would vote no"

Quote
The tragedy is that the "no" vote will be split between those not voting as don't want to legitimise the referendum and those that vote no, meaning there could easily be this unilateral declaration of independence after a yes vote despite the participation rates being extremely low.
You have some crystal ball there :D  Do you have any evidence?
The CEO opinion poll indicates that  68% of those polled, will vote.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 25, 2017, 11:57:29 AM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.

As regards the first one, see above about legitimising anti-constitutional action. Rajoy and Madrid shouldn't be able to stop self-determination for a nation/people/region (delete according to your viewpoint).

About the AVE, I stand corrected then.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 25, 2017, 12:14:38 PM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.

As regards the first one, see above about legitimising anti-constitutional action. Rajoy and Madrid shouldn't be able to stop self-determination for a nation/people/region (delete according to your viewpoint).

About the AVE, I stand corrected then.

Is it legitimised if it's not supported by a majority, even a simple majority, of the population?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 25, 2017, 12:20:58 PM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.

As regards the first one, see above about legitimising anti-constitutional action. Rajoy and Madrid shouldn't be able to stop self-determination for a nation/people/region (delete according to your viewpoint).

About the AVE, I stand corrected then.

Is it legitimised if it's not supported by a majority, even a simple majority, of the population?

In my opinion, yes. If not I couldn't recognise the 1916 leaders as anything other than terrorists. Besides, in Catalonia all they're doing is giving people a voice, and we'll see how big or small a minority/majority it is.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on September 25, 2017, 12:51:23 PM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.

As regards the first one, see above about legitimising anti-constitutional action. Rajoy and Madrid shouldn't be able to stop self-determination for a nation/people/region (delete according to your viewpoint).

About the AVE, I stand corrected then.

Is it legitimised if it's not supported by a majority, even a simple majority, of the population?

In my opinion, yes. If not I couldn't recognise the 1916 leaders as anything other than terrorists. Besides, in Catalonia all they're doing is giving people a voice, and we'll see how big or small a minority/majority it is.


Power is rarely ever given away peacefully. Madrid don't want to let go of the goose laying the golden eggs.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: OgraAnDun on September 25, 2017, 01:21:54 PM


In my opinion, yes. If not I couldn't recognise the 1916 leaders as anything other than terrorists. Besides, in Catalonia all they're doing is giving people a voice, and we'll see how big or small a minority/majority it is.


Power is rarely ever given away peacefully. Madrid don't want to let go of the goose laying the golden eggs.

I'd have to agree Seanie, if vote goes ahead, is in favour of independence and they proceed with a declaration of independence, there will be some very interesting times ahead.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 25, 2017, 01:31:36 PM
If any sort of vote goes ahead, of course it will be in favour of independence - only one section of the population will be taking part.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 25, 2017, 10:03:44 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.


Exactly.

Seamus, you are normally sensible but Gallsman is right.

Madrid's reaction has been unbelievably stupid in my view. They should allow a referendum with 2/3 majority required for independence. There wouldn't be a hope of that and issue could be put to bed. Unfortunately 50%+1 doesn't cut it.

While there has long been a longing among a fair part of the population for independence, Cataluña has never been independent. It's economic prosperity has also been built on the backbone of massive immigration from the rest of Spain, particularly from the 50s-70s.

Frankly I find it all very self interested and primarily based on financial interests i.e. They don't want to support those "lazy Andalusian" any more. Despite what I said above. It is no coincidence this has fired up not so long after La Crisis.

The leaders of the independence movement are a deceitful shower of c*nts, in the same way as the Brexit leadership. These guys have been lining their pockets for years in the same way politicians in the rest of the country have. Same lies about what a brave new economic world they will be in, yet Cataluña apparently exports more to Aragon than to whole of France.

And all this crap about remaining part of the EU. The EU has been very clear that they won't be. Probably a whole other debate about whether that is fair or not but the misinformation and spin is disheartening and dishonest.
50+1 is stupid. Just look at Brexit
What's the required majority figure deemed enough to carry a border poll?  50.01% v49.99%?
I doubt if such a close race will come to pass in the  Catalan referendum
There is an overwhelming political and popular mandate for holding the independence  referendum and a confident prediction of a resounding yes vote.

Here's one of the many polls but one based on the intentions of  'definite' voters
http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html (http://www.ara.cat/politica/Participacio-del-mes-avantatge_0_1871212940.html)

Kosovo republic still hasn't received  full intl recognition yet, though it has acquired full football intl status.

Overwhelming political mandate? They basically illegally forced through legislation to allow the referendum. Although the Catalan parliament had majority of seats in favour of independence (52 to 48, I think it was, hardly overwhelming), this did not represent a majority of the popular vote

Pro-sovereignty coalition has a majority of 20 or so in the Catalan parliament
The popular mandate for holding a referendum was overwhelming in favour of, some 75%  and that still continues.
Latest polls, despite the misleading headlines  and blatant spin in this article from El Pais, the polls still indicate an overwhelming yes vote
https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/21/inenglish/1500633835_182589.html (https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/07/21/inenglish/1500633835_182589.html)
 "67.5% of people polled by the CEO said they will vote in the October 1 referendum if it goes ahead, with 62.4% of this group saying they would vote yes and 37.6% saying they would vote no"

Quote
The tragedy is that the "no" vote will be split between those not voting as don't want to legitimise the referendum and those that vote no, meaning there could easily be this unilateral declaration of independence after a yes vote despite the participation rates being extremely low.
You have some crystal ball there :D  Do you have any evidence?
The CEO opinion poll indicates that  68% of those polled, will vote.

For holding a referendum yes, a legal one, as pointed out by Gallsman. It isn't just a question of semantics.
Yes as I mentioned, they won a majority of seats in the 2015 election. They did not win a majority of the votes. If it was Norn Iron in that case you would find many saying it was gerrymandering.

Regarding your poll, my math not as good as it used be and haven't gone into the article but not sure a crystal ball is needed. Unless I am reading something wrong, your supporting evidence actually backs up my assertion.

i) 67.5% is is not a high participation rate for a referendum on independence

ii) You can take it as given that virtually everybody inclined to vote yes would vote. By your poll, that means 0.62*0.67 = 42% would vote yes. Far from a majority, never mind an overwhelming majority

iii) If 38% of those voting are voting no (26% of the population), and the 32% of the population not voting, vote no (because those voting yes will vote), I would say that is pretty much the "no" vote being split.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: trileacman on September 25, 2017, 11:08:46 PM
AFAIK the majority of Catalans at least want the opportunity to vote on the issue.

Even all the AVE lines have to connect in Madrid rather than link other major cities independently, such as Barcelona-Valencia or Bilbao-Barcelona.

Good post but two key points here:

The majority of Catalans want to vote in a legal, democratic referendum on the issue, not this sham Puigdemont has put together.

There are firm plans in place for the full expansion and integration of the AVE network. The problem with it, as it has been for 10 years, is the cost. The Barcelona-Valencia line is already under construction.

As regards the first one, see above about legitimising anti-constitutional action. Rajoy and Madrid shouldn't be able to stop self-determination for a nation/people/region (delete according to your viewpoint).

About the AVE, I stand corrected then.

Is it legitimised if it's not supported by a majority, even a simple majority, of the population?

In my opinion, yes. If not I couldn't recognise the 1916 leaders as anything other than terrorists. Besides, in Catalonia all they're doing is giving people a voice, and we'll see how big or small a minority/majority it is.

That's a fraudulent analogy. You are free to recognise the 1916 leaders as you wish regardless of of what popular support says.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on September 26, 2017, 12:39:11 AM
Two leading UK betting company odds  from oddschecker

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence (https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence)

August 27   -   2/5  yes vote

Sept 21    -     1/16 yes vote

So much for the confidence in the alleged dwindling yes vote.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 26, 2017, 12:52:18 AM
Two leading UK betting company odds  from oddschecker

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence (https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence)

August 27   -   2/5  yes vote

Sept 21    -     1/16 yes vote

So much for the confidence in the alleged dwindling yes vote.

So what you're saying is that in a referendum where 99% of the voters will belong to one ideology, that ideology will prevail? Congratulations.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 26, 2017, 06:34:19 AM
Two leading UK betting company odds  from oddschecker

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence (https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence)

August 27   -   2/5  yes vote

Sept 21    -     1/16 yes vote

So much for the confidence in the alleged dwindling yes vote.

Did I read your original source wrong or are you now refuting my post with this new poll source? As Gallsman says, the likelihood of a yes vote is going to be very high if those who would vote no, don't vote.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on September 26, 2017, 07:55:12 AM
There was a great 3 part Documentary on BBC 4 about the history of Spain, after the death of Franco  King Juan Carlos played a very substantial role in trying to unify the country & bring a quick transition to democracy. Any sign of the Monarchy being wheeled out yet by Madrid? Felipe would hardly be as popular as KJC.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on September 26, 2017, 08:04:28 AM
Monarchy wouldn't be popular in Catalunya to begin with and given the corruption scandals surrounding it the last few years, wheeling them out would potentially be disastrous and reinforce the oppression angle.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: LCohen on September 26, 2017, 08:16:32 AM
I suppose if they get separation, the Basque region will be pushing and be sorry they declared peace

Unbelievable
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on September 28, 2017, 08:36:54 PM
Intetesting. 'Yes vote on 1st October could see the Euro drop 5%'

https://www.poundsterlinglive.com/eur/7639-pound-to-euro-exchange-rate-catalonia
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on September 29, 2017, 02:20:36 AM
Two leading UK betting company odds  from oddschecker

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence (https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence)

August 27   -   2/5  yes vote

Sept 21    -     1/16 yes vote

So much for the confidence in the alleged dwindling yes vote.

Did I read your original source wrong or are you now refuting my post with this new poll source? As Gallsman says, the likelihood of a yes vote is going to be very high if those who would vote no, don't vote.
It's not about you, I couldn't care less about what's going through your head or others for that matter.
It's just my habit to look for intelligent neutral sources for more accurate information.




Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on September 29, 2017, 07:44:10 AM
Two leading UK betting company odds  from oddschecker

https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence (https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/catalonia-referendum/winner/bet-history/yes-to-independence)

August 27   -   2/5  yes vote

Sept 21    -     1/16 yes vote

So much for the confidence in the alleged dwindling yes vote.

Did I read your original source wrong or are you now refuting my post with this new poll source? As Gallsman says, the likelihood of a yes vote is going to be very high if those who would vote no, don't vote.
It's not about you, I couldn't care less about what's going through your head or others for that matter.
It's just my habit to look for intelligent neutral sources for more accurate information.

I don't think it's about me for a second and I'm all for everyone reading from all sides. What I'm pointing out is that the numbers you're posting don't stack up. Ideally people would read and understand. It is all too easy for people from the outside looking in to think , "oh the poor oppressed Catalans" and I think particularly those of us who grew up in the North are almost predisposed to think that way.

Cataluña's biggest complaint is that they pay more in taxes than they get back. Supposedly 16bn according to Junqueras. I haven't seen anyone dispute that they contribute more but the pieces I have read put the figure closer to €1.5bn. This is same as Farage's £350mn quid a week lies for the NHS.

Now guess what. Madrid also contributes more and on a very similar level to Cataluña. Spain operates a progressive tax system which means that richer people pay more, and I believe that is the way it should be. The logical extension of this is that wealthier areas will pay more and be net contributors. Junqueras argument is like a millionaire saying he is loaded but shouldn't be means tested for any social aid etc.

There are several studies showing that Cataluña is far from the worst affected autonomous community in this regard, with at least Valencia and Murcia worse off.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on September 30, 2017, 07:51:35 AM
Things are really taking a bad turn.

Deploying Police from Madrid to stop the referendum taking place is going to lead to anarchy.
Regardless of what we want to believe the police have their own opinions and with this deployment the probably have the support of central Government.
A recipe for disaster. I read there's 49% of Catalans that want to stay with Spain. That silent majority is the way out of this. They should be used by central Government not the police.

If it all kicks off Spain will be bringing itself to a very long period of trouble.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: under the bar on October 01, 2017, 12:00:45 AM
Madrid making a big mistake bringing the police in to stop people voting. Why are police needed to prevent irrelevant voting that's unconstitutional? Just declare the result is unrecognised and let them vote.   The shame of Franco's oppressive regime is still in living memory for many!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 12:02:52 AM
The doing it to make a politically misguided statement. Also, it'll help them when they bring charges of sedition or at the very least misappropriation of public funds as referendums don't come cheap.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 10:15:05 AM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: under the bar on October 01, 2017, 12:08:29 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 12:10:17 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.

Fascism? Cop the f**k on. Lazy propaganda of the highest order. Cops wearing helmets isn't the exclusive preserve of fascism ffs.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: stew on October 01, 2017, 02:23:50 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.

Why not simply refuse to recognise these elections instead of this bully boy bullshit!

Arrogance and stupidity from the government here, they are acting like the brits and I hope it bites them in the hole!

c***ts!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: StGallsGAA on October 01, 2017, 02:33:42 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.

Fascism? Cop the f**k on. Lazy propaganda of the highest order. Cops wearing helmets isn't the exclusive preserve of fascism ffs.
What about firing rubber bullets at people for the crime of turning out to vote?? 
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 02:50:15 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.

Fascism? Cop the f**k on. Lazy propaganda of the highest order. Cops wearing helmets isn't the exclusive preserve of fascism ffs.
What about firing rubber bullets at people for the crime of turning out to vote??

Yeah it's a complete disgrace and completely disproportionate, regardless of the fact the referendum is illegal.

That doesn't make it fascist.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: tonto1888 on October 01, 2017, 02:53:10 PM
Those videos aren't good. Don't look good on the Spanish government and police
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: StGallsGAA on October 01, 2017, 03:29:35 PM
Skirmishes happening already. Rubber bullets fired apparently and some photos/videos of old women being dragged away.

The violent actions of the fascist scum are simply fuelling the Catalan cause.

Fascism? Cop the f**k on. Lazy propaganda of the highest order. Cops wearing helmets isn't the exclusive preserve of fascism ffs.
What about firing rubber bullets at people for the crime of turning out to vote??

Yeah it's a complete disgrace and completely disproportionate, regardless of the fact the referendum is illegal.

That doesn't make it fascist.
The chants from those being brutalized would suggest they don't share your view! 
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 03:52:02 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: StGallsGAA on October 01, 2017, 04:18:33 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.

So what's happening at present isn't the actions of an oppressive govt then?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: sid waddell on October 01, 2017, 05:45:51 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.
I think it's pretty obvious that the Spanish government are well aware that Catalans have both first hand memory (those who were alive at the time) and a strong folk memory (younger people) of Francoist oppression in Catalonia.

And yet they still went ahead with a violent crackdown on this vote.

So one has to presume that their actions are a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression in Catalans.

Why they'd do that, I have no idea, except to presume that that bullying, fascist mindset still stirs strongly within them.

Bullies tend to have an inner fascist and they tend not to have much emotional intelligence.

Mr. Rajoy demonstrated that years ago when he threw away a general election he was strongly fancied to win when he went along with the outgoing Prime Minister Aznar in blaming ETA for the Madrid bombings, when the dogs on the street in Ballyhaunis could have told you that Islamists were responsible.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 05:49:12 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.

So what's happening at present isn't the actions of an oppressive govt then?

That still doesn't make it fascist. Oppression comes in all shapes and forms.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: under the bar on October 01, 2017, 07:39:18 PM
I can chant all I want about something and that doesn't make it true.

Because of Spain's fascist past, it's very easy to label any sort of action from Madrid as such when in reality it's a deliberate ploy designed to effect the memory of Francoist oppression.

So what's happening at present isn't the actions of an oppressive govt then?

That still doesn't make it fascist. Oppression comes in all shapes and forms.

"Hola Senor protestor!   Pardon me while I cave your skull in with my democratic non-fascist baton round!  Solidarity mi hombre!".
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: stew on October 01, 2017, 07:54:05 PM
Gallsman why ask peoples opinion on it then criticise. Get off the high horse pal.

Dont do it Walter, I have him blocked but if you challenge gallbladder in any way you will be abused, he cannot take questions because he does not know the answers to the questions people pose, hence the abuse.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: thejuice on October 01, 2017, 09:38:58 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on October 01, 2017, 09:52:55 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: tonto1888 on October 01, 2017, 09:55:58 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.

perhaps if he allowed the vote to go ahead the no campaign would have mobilised its voters?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 10:02:27 PM
The referendum was illegal. The legislation that brought it about unconstitutional. There would have been no participation from the no side either way.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on October 01, 2017, 10:07:41 PM
I'm in Spain at the moment though a long way from Catalunya. But my wife is from Girona and as long as I've known her the Catalan independence movement went from a small fringe to what it is today because of ham fisted actions coming out of Madrid particularly when Rajoy got into power. If they let them have a referendum years ago it would have lost like in Scotland and none of this would have happened. Also giving a few small gestures to the autonomy of Catalunya would have gone a long way but it seems that's beyond PP.

So many Catalans I know went from not wanting independence to slowly going for it and events this week have increased that flow dramatically. Independent Catalunya is guaranteed at this stage. Rajoy is the best thing to happen to the independence movement it couldn't have happened without him and to be honest they should build a monument to him in Placa de Cataluña after this.

Ham fisted is right but not sure what choice Rajoy had in this. If he allows the vote to go ahead, with only one side campaigning, there is a guaranteed "yes" vote, at which point they had promised to proclaim independence with 48 hours.

Once that was done, what does he do? Send in the army rather than the police? I honestly think it was a damned if you do , damned if you don't situation for him (that he walked himself into over the years as you point out)

Unfortunately situation is now one of extreme polarization. If you aren't with those on the side of independence you are automatically against them and a fascist. The politicians there played their hand well but that doesn't stop them being a bunch of conniving corrupt, self-interested gobshites. You can be sure they won't be the ones suffering from an independent Cataluña but there will be plenty that will.

perhaps if he allowed the vote to go ahead the no campaign would have mobilised its voters?

He couldn't let it go ahead even if he wanted to due to the constitution. Also bear in mind that of the other major political parties on a national level, only Podemos supported the right to vote. If he had walked back I don't think he could have survived.

That said, as I mentioned, the situation is at least in part of his own making. He probably much earlier should have made moves to get cross party agreement for a referendum some time hence which would allow both sides to run organised campaigns, as opposed to Puidgemont et al. saying, "we're doing it now, whether you like it or not".
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: thejuice on October 01, 2017, 10:20:21 PM
That was my point. He should have done it years ago. He could have thrown those who were proud Catalans but not supporters of independence a few bones to respect their autonomy and identity and that would have quenched any fires.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 01, 2017, 11:51:28 PM
42% turnout, 90% yes.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: thejuice on October 02, 2017, 09:36:21 AM
The no vote abstaining hasn't helped the situation at all leading up to this as well. As for the constitution they've had no problem changing it on Merkels request so it's not that precious when it suits them.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on October 02, 2017, 09:40:37 AM
42% means polarisation
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: MoChara on October 02, 2017, 11:41:31 AM
I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 02, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.

Precisely. There is a completely misguided belief that this is some sort of socialist revolution. The shinners had boots on the ground offer there yesterday and are helping to propagate that myth in this part of the world at least.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: MoChara on October 02, 2017, 12:01:32 PM
I'm surprised at the facebook revolutionaries all weighing in carte blanche behind Catalan independence surely its pretty clear to see its Spanish nationalism versus Catalan Nationalism, there is no left wing revolution happening there, this is even before the peelers starting battering them off the street.

Precisely. There is a completely misguided belief that this is some sort of socialist revolution. The shinners had boots on the ground offer there yesterday and are helping to propagate that myth in this part of the world at least.

Even the IRPs have people over FFS
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on October 02, 2017, 01:23:20 PM
The referendum was illegal. The legislation that brought it about unconstitutional. There would have been no participation from the no side either way.


Lots of parallels with 1916. The overreaction of the occupying government has probably clinched it again.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 02, 2017, 02:04:20 PM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?

Many of the Breton separatists sides with the Nazis against the French Resistance. Happily many of these collaborators were rounded up and executed after D Day. Of course a few escaped to Ireland and were employed by the I.R.A.designing memorials
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Fat Angry Motorist on October 02, 2017, 03:47:09 PM
I've seen a lot of shite on FB, Twitter etc portraying this as some sort of left wing popular uprising.  If you read into, this it's more of a right wing popular uprising with two sets of conservatives fighting each other.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on October 02, 2017, 06:13:33 PM
I've seen a lot of shite on FB, Twitter etc portraying this as some sort of left wing popular uprising.  If you read into, this it's more of a right wing popular uprising with two sets of conservatives fighting each other.

Corrupt on both sides as well. The corruption line is often thrown out about the PP but CiU seem to have been as bad if not worse. The founding father of modern political Catalan nationalism somehow "inherited" hundreds of millions let's not forget and I have no doubt those leading the secession will line their pockets handsomely.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: under the bar on October 02, 2017, 08:40:58 PM
Will the International Brigade be reformed then?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on October 02, 2017, 11:32:28 PM
I've seen a lot of shite on FB, Twitter etc portraying this as some sort of left wing popular uprising.  If you read into, this it's more of a right wing popular uprising with two sets of conservatives fighting each other.
Yes, it's  vitally important to consider Twitter and Facebook opinions  ::)

This movement for independence runs much deeper than a brexit, right wing led, anti immigrant sentiment.

The ingredients for a movement for greater autonomy/independence should include a distinct culture and language, be a viable economic unit,  have perceived and genuine injustices (present and historical) and importantly have popular sentiment on their side.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: The Subbie on October 02, 2017, 11:41:44 PM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?

Many of the Breton separatists sides with the Nazis against the French Resistance. Happily many of these collaborators were rounded up and executed after D Day. Of course a few escaped to Ireland and were employed by the I.R.A.designing memorials

That last bit sounds a interesting, have you got any links that could provide further reading ?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Fat Angry Motorist on October 03, 2017, 09:00:41 AM
I've seen a lot of shite on FB, Twitter etc portraying this as some sort of left wing popular uprising.  If you read into, this it's more of a right wing popular uprising with two sets of conservatives fighting each other.
Yes, it's  vitally important to consider Twitter and Facebook opinions  ::)

This movement for independence runs much deeper than a brexit, right wing led, anti immigrant sentiment.

The ingredients for a movement for greater autonomy/independence should include a distinct culture and language, be a viable economic unit,  have perceived and genuine injustices (present and historical) and importantly have popular sentiment on their side.

Says the man/woman on an internet discussion board. ::)

In the 2015 Catalan Elections the "Together For Yes" coalition got less than 40% of the popular vote. Had Rajoy left well alone this would have gone somewhat under the radar in the rest of the world.  Though they might have more popular support now!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Rufus T Firefly on October 03, 2017, 09:49:50 PM
I don't know too much about this situation, but is there any sort of possibility that this situation could escalate into widespread violence, in light of the heavy handed response from the Spanish police?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 04, 2017, 04:42:35 AM
I don't know too much about this situation, but is there any sort of possibility that this situation could escalate into widespread violence, in light of the heavy handed response from the Spanish police?
Across Spain there is little support for the Catalan cause. Indeed within Catalonia there is no guarantee that a referendum would pass in favour of Independence.  The national government response of course has ignored lessons from history everywhere and have come out on the heavy side.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 04, 2017, 04:48:08 AM
Very interesting development on the horizon and how the Spanish government and the EU deal with any independence vote.
A yes vote isn't beyond the realms of possibility but what impact it will have on Spain's central government is the big question.
It will open a can of worms in relation to Basque if it is given any credence by the government.
We are entering a period of unstable governments across Europe in relation to many issues involving economics and reform including Brexit and the role of the EU in sovereign states.
Independence issues in places like Catalonia and Scotland will only be getting more frequent and if regions start to be granted independence where does that stop.
Brittany and Corsica in France next?What about closer to home and the North?Bavaria in Germany maybe?

Many of the Breton separatists sides with the Nazis against the French Resistance. Happily many of these collaborators were rounded up and executed after D Day. Of course a few escaped to Ireland and were employed by the I.R.A.designing memorials

That last bit sounds a interesting, have you got any links that could provide further reading ?

Check out Yann Renard Goulet designer of Ballyseedy memorial and collaborated with Nazis in occupied France
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Harold Disgracey on October 04, 2017, 11:09:04 AM
Goulet also designed the monument in Crossmaglen.

That wasn’t a very helpful intervention by the Spanish king.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Rossfan on October 04, 2017, 11:31:26 AM
Shades of Derry October 1968 and Easter 1916.
Do very right wingers ever read history?
I now hear on the News of Police chiefs being charged with "Sedition"!!!
Shades of Ireland 1917-21.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: stew on October 04, 2017, 12:45:30 PM
I've seen a lot of shite on FB, Twitter etc portraying this as some sort of left wing popular uprising.  If you read into, this it's more of a right wing popular uprising with two sets of conservatives fighting each other.

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 04, 2017, 01:28:08 PM
Shades of Derry October 1968 and Easter 1916.
Do very right wingers ever read history?
I now hear on the News of Police chiefs being charged with "Sedition"!!!
Shades of Ireland 1917-21.
No one learns from history.
The Catalan government can shit or get off the pot now. Spain won't give them independence and if they declare it the E.U. won't recognise them. There is a big Anti tourist movement in Barcelona so maybe it's time they can have their own state and see how that works out. The E.U.  can't recognise them without opening the door for Scotland or the North
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Wildweasel74 on October 04, 2017, 02:09:04 PM
Only one problem with the north u likely get a 65% no vote for a split from the uk
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: armaghniac on October 04, 2017, 05:58:02 PM
The Catalan government can shit or get off the pot now. Spain won't give them independence and if they declare it the E.U. won't recognise them. There is a big Anti tourist movement in Barcelona so maybe it's time they can have their own state and see how that works out. The E.U.  can't recognise them without opening the door for Scotland or the North

The EU has no particular problem with Scotland, other than encouraging Catalonia. As for the North a United Ireland will automatically be in the EU, there will not be  an independent NI.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: NetNitrate on October 04, 2017, 06:49:10 PM
Shades of Derry October 1968 and Easter 1916.
Do very right wingers ever read history?
I now hear on the News of Police chiefs being charged with "Sedition"!!!
Shades of Ireland 1917-21.

Depends from what side of history you view this from. Technically, the Catalan move for independence from Spain is closer to the 6 counties separation from the rest of Ireland.

On the otherhand, some view countries as natural, if not sacrosanct, boundaries - ie the island of Ireland is a country, and the creation of Northern Ireland was an artificial construct. That would be the Fhior Gael view.

However, all borders and countries are arbitrary including the borders of counties. America, the most famous in history, was created by a declaration of independence obviously backed by a successful war of independence. That said, they did invoke the "laws of nature and nature's God". However, that was bullshit. All borders are arbitrary creations, typically created by the majority within those borders, sometimes with the threat of force.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 08, 2017, 06:41:04 PM
350,000 March in an anti independence rally.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/08/world/europe/catalonia-independence-protest.html?smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=https://t.co/0ErRoccLIx

Read in a separate article that a lot of far right types were bussed in for the event.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: CiKe on October 08, 2017, 08:55:55 PM
The organisers themselves say it was a million. Haven't a clue what the figure would be but streets were choc a bloc from the photos.

Benny where did you read about the right-wingers bussed in? Genuinely curious, not seen anything on the news over here, but there seems to be a perception that independence movement is result of right-wing oppression. Most of Spain and majority of Cataluna are against independence, and that goes across the political spectrum
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 08, 2017, 09:52:51 PM
Twitter, (Ruptly) there's a fair bit on twitter in relation to it.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Capt Pat on October 09, 2017, 12:34:59 AM
The organisers themselves say it was a million. Haven't a clue what the figure would be but streets were choc a bloc from the photos.

Its a pity a milion Catalans didn't get out and vote that way if that is what they wanted.

The people have spoken in the referendum their democratic will should be respected.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 09, 2017, 12:37:15 AM
The organisers themselves say it was a million. Haven't a clue what the figure would be but streets were choc a bloc from the photos.

Its a pity a milion Catalans didn't get out and vote that way if that is what they wanted.

The people have spoken in the referendum their democratic will should be respected.

Why? Why would they go and vote in an illegal referendum? Why would the vote of a minority of the population in an illegal referendum be respected?

Complete bollocks.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: armaghniac on October 09, 2017, 12:46:04 AM
The votes of a minority in an illegal referendum should be respected to the extent of having a proper referendum.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Capt Pat on October 09, 2017, 12:48:15 AM
Illegal referendum or democracy at work? You would vote in it if you wanted your voice to be heard and your opinion taken into account.

Of course the Spanish government is going to say it is an illegal referendum and maybe has legislation that says so. It is the only way this mess is going to be sorted out I hope. An election or referendum is better than going to war over it.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 09, 2017, 01:03:26 AM
There was nothing democratic about it. Are you familiar with the background to it at all or just jumping on the bandwagon?

They broke their own parliamentary rules to railroad the legislation paving the way for the "referendum" in the first place. Their own polls showed 41% appetite for independence and they pushed ahead with
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 09, 2017, 08:02:51 AM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 09, 2017, 08:18:51 AM
I think it has to end with a promise of a constitutional Referendum, maybe in 2020 to give the dust time to settle.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: magpie seanie on October 09, 2017, 09:40:07 AM
Was chatting to a friend of mine from Madrid who was visiting us in Sligo at the weekend. He reckons the Spanish government are woefully inept and corrupt and are the main driver of the growth in support for Catalan Independence. He makes the point that this government oppresses all of Spain, not just Catalonia, with their ineptitude. He firmly believes if and when they're replaced, Catalan independence sentiment will melt away.

Apparently according to him also, there are lots of fake photos and videos doing the rounds. He maintains the violence did happen but has been greatly exaggerated. I'm surprised to hear that - has anyone else heard similar?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: naka on October 09, 2017, 12:21:21 PM
 
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging

 ;) ;)
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: AZOffaly on October 09, 2017, 01:02:51 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 09, 2017, 01:40:03 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: AZOffaly on October 09, 2017, 01:47:09 PM
I'm joking. I thought you were too!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 10, 2017, 06:56:50 PM
Independence declaration on hold.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 10, 2017, 07:17:22 PM
Fudge by Puigdemont. He who hesitates has lost. His Communist minority coalition partners supposedly not impressed.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: north_antrim_hound on October 10, 2017, 07:28:08 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on October 10, 2017, 08:10:15 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Until the GOI act came into being late 1920, there just one version of a 9 county planted ulster and anybody who knows anything about the WOI knows that guerilla warfare started in/with earnest, Monaghan feb 1920, providing the template for successful attacks on RIC barracks countrywide.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 10, 2017, 11:41:51 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Spoof all you like from your high stool but the facts tell otherwise.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 10, 2017, 11:46:03 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Until the GOI act came into being late 1920, there just one version of a 9 county planted ulster and anybody who knows anything about the WOI knows that guerilla warfare started in/with earnest, Monaghan feb 1920, providing the template for successful attacks on RIC barracks countrywide.

Compare the activity in the 26 counties against the number of engagements in the six counties. It is all on record. Monaghan did fine but the activity in big centres of population like Belfast and Derry was minimal compared to Dublin Waterford Cork Limerick etc.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 10, 2017, 11:49:15 PM
Fudge by Puigdemont. He who hesitates has lost. His Communist minority coalition partners supposedly not impressed.
Bottled it again
 Saw the way the wind was blowing with hundreds of thousands on the street against him and financial institutions leaving to maintain their place in the E.U.
Good idea after four or five bottles of red but then reality hit home like the Scottish.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: north_antrim_hound on October 11, 2017, 12:17:22 AM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Until the GOI act came into being late 1920, there just one version of a 9 county planted ulster and anybody who knows anything about the WOI knows that guerilla warfare started in/with earnest, Monaghan feb 1920, providing the template for successful attacks on RIC barracks countrywide.

Compare the activity in the 26 counties against the number of engagements in the six counties. It is all on record. Monaghan did fine but the activity in big centres of population like Belfast and Derry was minimal compared to Dublin Waterford Cork Limerick etc.

500 people died in Belfast from 1920 to 1922
260 of those where catholic civilians some at the hands of the RIC
Sorry if that wasn't enough for you
I never looked at the figures in the southern part of the country
Because only someone sick and demented would try and turn those horrific days into some sort of bragging contest now
You really are pathetic
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Rossfan on October 11, 2017, 01:19:56 AM
Be very hard to be active in the 6 Cos when anything up to 80% of the locals were supporting the "Security forces ".
In Roscommon the least active areas were adjacent to the well garrisoned towns of Athlone and Boyle.
But in fairness Cork and Tipp were savage.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: armaghniac on October 11, 2017, 01:22:42 PM
But in fairness Cork and Tipp were savage.

And still are.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 11, 2017, 01:56:25 PM
The Catalan leadership are backing off from a U.D.I.   now that their bluff has been called. The big financial groups want stability and are pulling out. Hundreds of thousands of Catalan have gone on the street demanding to stay with Spain. The Pro independence crowd will be happy with that as they now have an excuse to pull back and let the chip on their shoulder get bigger. Similar to the six counties which had the lowest level of military activity during the War of Independence and allowed the south to bear the brunt of the Black and Tans. Then spent the next 50 years whinging
Sure the war of independence was basically Cork and Tipp versus the UK.
That's not true at all Kerry Limerick Waterford Clare Dublin Roscommon all did their bit. Even the Offaly lads were well able to get stuck in
 But a study of the list of engagements with the enemy shows that there was minimal activity in the North. This allowed the British to concentrate their forces in Dublin and the south. The Northern lads mightnt like being told that but the figures speak for themselves

Typical unbalanced view by Ruth Dudleys sole brother
Over the British occupation which lasted 800 odd years the province of Ulster offered the most resistance

your from the pale yourself so I'll forgive you as you don't seem that well read on any subject ireland related
The war of independence didn't start in 1916
Until the GOI act came into being late 1920, there just one version of a 9 county planted ulster and anybody who knows anything about the WOI knows that guerilla warfare started in/with earnest, Monaghan feb 1920, providing the template for successful attacks on RIC barracks countrywide.

Compare the activity in the 26 counties against the number of engagements in the six counties. It is all on record. Monaghan did fine but the activity in big centres of population like Belfast and Derry was minimal compared to Dublin Waterford Cork Limerick etc.

500 people died in Belfast from 1920 to 1922
260 of those where catholic civilians some at the hands of the RIC
Sorry if that wasn't enough for you
I never looked at the figures in the southern part of the country
Because only someone sick and demented would try and turn those horrific days into some sort of bragging contest now
You really are pathetic

And what we're the local ira doing about it?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Avondhu star on October 11, 2017, 01:58:14 PM
Be very hard to be active in the 6 Cos when anything up to 80% of the locals were supporting the "Security forces ".
In Roscommon the least active areas were adjacent to the well garrisoned towns of Athlone and Boyle.
But in fairness Cork and Tipp were savage.
Roscommon can hold its headl high despite the presence of army barracks and the flat countryside
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: omaghjoe on October 12, 2017, 08:20:49 PM
Any chance we could get back on topic?

Whats the latest with  this? Couldnt make head nor tail of this latest episode, is it they have signed the independence bill but just haven't announced it?

It seems like Madrid are equally confused.

It almost seems like the Catalans are trying to egg on the Spanish to do something stupid that would cause complete outrage, and strangely enough the Spanish seem to be complying.

Is there still a way back at this point or is the whole deteriorating towards a political impass?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: armaghniac on October 12, 2017, 10:39:34 PM
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: north_antrim_hound on October 13, 2017, 01:31:23 PM
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.

Exactly that's the crux of it

Sorry for going if topic but "Ruth Avondhu  Edwards " was deviateing to express his disdain for all things northern nationalist
A bigger bigot up here would be hard to find
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Clov on October 13, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
This is well worth a listen for anyone interested in where this is going.
https://www.talkingpoliticspodcast.com/blog/2017/63-catalonia
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on October 13, 2017, 04:42:28 PM
the Catalan referendum was a bit like Brexit, winning the referendum was the easy bit.

Exactly that's the crux of it

The problem with the Catalan referendum was that it was not a free and fair referendum. There was serious tampering with the election mechanism, whether by word (Spanish government) or by deed, the obstruction by the police and other agencies.
The mandate from the ballots cast, falls short and is not enough to empower a decl of independence.






Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: screenexile on October 27, 2017, 03:56:16 PM
Un Parlament fracturado declara la independencia!!!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Syferus on October 27, 2017, 05:10:44 PM
I really can’t believe how massively Spain fûcked this up. I’m sure if the Catalan government were being honest they’d say they expected this sabre-rattling to lead to talks and concessions from Madraid, but the central government seems intent on doing everything in its power to enflame the situation and harden the pro-Indepenance movement’s stance.

The last thing the EU needs at the moment is more instability in one of the major countries, they stemmed the right-wing tide somewhat earlier in the year only to walk into another set of crisises.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on October 27, 2017, 06:40:09 PM
The referendum was unconstitutional but the Spanish reaction is very heavy handed. This a battle for hearts and minds. Now Article 155 has been invoked. Direct rule. Will Catalan police follow orders?

We really need a new economic system.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 27, 2017, 07:31:39 PM
Spain is still dealing with the fall out from Franco

the regions and their cultures and languages were suppressed for decades and have been slowly gaining more prominence since the new state was formed
it was inevitable that these regions would move towards independence
the recent actions of the central government have hastened this
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: trileacman on October 27, 2017, 07:50:07 PM
I really can’t believe how massively Spain fûcked this up. I’m sure if the Catalan government were being honest they’d say they expected this sabre-rattling to lead to talks and concessions from Madraid, but the central government seems intent on doing everything in its power to enflame the situation and harden the pro-Indepenance movement’s stance.

The last thing the EU needs at the moment is more instability in one of the major countries, they stemmed the right-wing tide somewhat earlier in the year only to walk into another set of crisises.

This is not the eu’s problem and they will not and should not wade in on a domestic affair. If they did the populist cry would be “look at the unelected eu technocrats meddling in Catalonian independence”.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on October 27, 2017, 08:16:13 PM
I think Catalonia is also a Eurozone issue. Austerity has heightened the differences between prosperous and poorer regions. In northern  Italy , Veneto is looking for more autonomy. Rajoy has followed the ECB'S orders. Protecting the assets of the rich . Boosting polarisation. SFA growth. Where there is no growth, politics get very messy.
The Eurozone must be reformed to focus on people rather than debt.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: trileacman on October 27, 2017, 08:25:06 PM
Gallsman has probably long since abandoned this thread but if not I’d love an update of his views on the way this has progressed.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 27, 2017, 09:28:11 PM
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: give her dixie on October 28, 2017, 01:20:47 AM
Rebels in Solidarity: An Irish Hunger Striker and Catalonia, 1920
by PAULINE MURPHY

While watching the brutal way Spain suppressed the will of the Catalan people on the first day of October 2017 a quote came to my mind:

‘It is not those who inflict the most but those that endure the most that shall prevail.’

That apt observation came from the pen of Terence MacSwiney, an Irish revolutionary who died after 74 days on hunger strike in Brixton Prison in 1920. His death gave rise to widespread outrage, including in Catalonia.

MacSwiney had been serving as the Lord Mayor of Cork when in the Autumn of 1920 he was arrested by British authorities and started a hunger strike. MacSwiney continued his hunger strike when he was sent across the Irish sea to languish in a British prison and garnered support from many across the globe including in the northeastern part of Spain where a nation of people were longing for their own independence.

MacSwiney died on October 25th 1920 and his death was mourned by those in Catalonia who had been closely following the hunger strike of the rebel Lord Mayor. During MacSwiney’s hunger strike daily updates filled Catalan newspapers while masses were said for the Irishman and public demonstrations filled the streets. When news of MacSwiney’s death reached Catalonia a state of mourning kicked in. Women wore black, flags were flown at half mast and on October 27th grief turned into protest when up to 500 Catalans marched on the British Consulate in Barcelona.

Waving a tri-colour Irish flag, the crowd marched to the British consulate while chanting ‘Viva Irlanda, muera Inglaterra!’ ( long live Ireland, death to England!) The consulate had closed its doors as the consul general was not in and when the marchers reached the closed building they flung stones and broke all the windows. The angry protesters dispersed when the heavy handed guardia civil arrived on the scene. Days later the consul general wrote to London to divulge his utter disgust at how Catalans sided with the cause of Irish freedom. He informed London how the consulate in Barcelona was “now guarded by a strong force of police and guardia civil who shall remain until the local excitement over the so called martyrdom of MacSwiney has subsided.” But the ‘local excitement’ did not subside because just days later a mass rally in support of the martyred MacSwiney was held in Catalan capital.

On November 1st 1920, thousands attended a rally in Barcelona to show their support for Irish independence and their grief for MacSwiney.  It was organised by the trade union CADCI (Central Autonomista de Dependents del Comerc i la Industrial) and the guest of honour was Sinn Fein’s representative in Spain Maire ni Bhriain but, it was the recital of a poem that became the highlight of the day.

The Catalan playwright, poet and politician Ventura Gassol had been asked by the CADCI to compose a poem in honour of MacSwiney and he delivered ‘Germd Nostre’ (our brother) from a balcony draped in an Irish tri-colour flag in the main square in Barcelona. Gassol’s poem was based on an old Catalan folksong ‘La Preso de Lleida’ (Lleida Prison) and as he delivered it to the thousands assembled, a sustained applause broke out after each verse, such as the intense emotion. A report in the Catalan journal L’Accio described how “the poet Ventura Gassol gave a magnificent reading of a most beautiful original poem exalting the towering deed of the Lord Mayor of Cork, producing among those present a deep emotion.”

Before MacSwiney succumbed to his hunger strike, the CADCI had sent a letter to the British prime minister Loyld George  to vent their frustration with Britains brutal response to Irelands fight for freedom. Dated September 1st 1920 the letter from the CADCI informed the British PM  ‘our organisation, consisting of 8,000 members……….wishes to make its voice heard by you, in order, to express the concern of all Catalonia for the heroic, sublime and now tragic gesture of the Lord Mayor of Cork…..and his unbending will to sacrifice his life on behalf of his ideal of nationhood.’

In the aftermath of MacSwiney’s death, town council’s across Catalonia passed motions of condolence to MacSwiney’s family and expressions of support for the Irish Republican movement. The town council in Figueres passed a motion of ‘admiration of the glorious death of the Lord Mayor of Cork and other patriotic Irishmen who have died in English prison, that our adhesion to the liberty of people and the inviolable rules of justice may be proclaimed.’ The mayor of Villafranca del Panades sent a letter to 10 Downing Street condemning those there for the death of MacSwiney.  The British replied by requesting the Spanish government to punish local authorities across Catalonia who publicly support Irish Republicans.

Apart from letters to the British PM and public displays of support, Catalonia also sent condolences directly to the MacSwiney family in Cork. A letter of condolence was sent to MacSwiney’s widow from the Directive Council of Nostra Parla in Barcelona. The message of condolence dated December 1st 1920 to Mrs MacSwiney informed her that her husband’s ‘martyrdom will be an example for all people that, so as ours, feel a foreign domination.’ MacSwiney’s two year old daughter was also in the thoughts of Catalans and they sent her a doll which is now displayed at the public museum in Cork City.

The poem that Ventura Gassol wrote and recited with great emotion in Barcelona on All Saints day in 1920 highlighted the similarities between Ireland and Catalonia in their quest for self determination, a quest still not completed for many Catalans to this day. The following lines from Gassol’s poem describe how through death MacSwiney forced an opening through the prison walls and how his fight for freedom is inspiring to Catalans who are yet to find an escape from their imprisonment…..

Al cor ombros d’Irlanda
N’hi ha una gran preso:
que ja no hi queden presos,
que no n’hi queden, no.
MacSwiney, blanc de cara,
gelet encar de la suor de mort,
Ha obert un esvoranc a les muralles,
i cel amunt se’ls va enduent a tots….
Espirit de MacSwiney, germa nostre,
Oh, si tambe ens obrissiu la preso!
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on October 28, 2017, 08:31:28 AM
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.

This is no different than any independence movement.
It's only a problem after you win.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 28, 2017, 08:51:12 AM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be poisonous for all concerned.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on October 28, 2017, 08:58:34 AM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.


Most Irish Nationalists and Republicans want unity which is the opposite of independence. I don't hear anyone arguing fr Independence in Ireland.

It's a common misconception as is putting a slash between Nationalist and Republican as if they might be the same thing.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Rossfan on October 28, 2017, 09:25:39 AM
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on October 28, 2017, 09:56:26 AM
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?

Millions of British Nationalists including those in Ireland.

I don't want a Monarchy yet I'm not a Nationalist.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: manfromdelmonte on October 28, 2017, 10:15:51 AM
How many Nationalists want a Monarchy?

Millions of British Nationalists including those in Ireland.

I don't want a Monarchy yet I'm not a Nationalist.
are they not royalists?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: vallankumous on October 28, 2017, 10:19:23 AM


are they not royalists?

They are both but that does not make both things the same.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: sid waddell on October 28, 2017, 12:29:34 PM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: J70 on October 28, 2017, 12:36:20 PM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.


Most Irish Nationalists and Republicans want unity which is the opposite of independence. I don't hear anyone arguing fr Independence in Ireland.

It's a common misconception as is putting a slash between Nationalist and Republican as if they might be the same thing.

I think he is equating sympathy for Catalan independence with pre- and post-partition longing for independence from Britain. “Escape” from Spain being equivalent to escape from the UK. Irish unity, by necessity, requires independence of the remaining six counties given that rejoining the UK is not an option.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on October 28, 2017, 01:18:02 PM
Not really sure what to say. Puigdemont's move took me by surprise until this morning. Genuinely didn't think he'd do it. It's all still just posturing for now - what the invocation of 155 will actually mean in reality remains to be seen.

I presume Rajoy will push ahead and look to arrest Puigdemont and the likes of Junqueras and Forcadell. How that happens will be very interesting as I imagine they won't be going or be let go lightly. How the Mossos behave will be telling.

One thing for everyone to bear in mind is that the separatist collation in power in Catalunya is made up of several parties from various political slants with no reason to trust or align with one another apart from their Catalan nationalism. Given the various stresses and pressures they'll be under, depending on how direct role goes, that coalition could begin to fracture.

This is no different than any independence movement.
It's only a problem after you win.

Not really. Catalan nationalists haven't won anything yet. If Rajoy's planned elections go ahead, you could see the coalition fracturing somewhat as they all return to party politics.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 28, 2017, 03:47:32 PM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."
1916 was totally unwarranted and gained restrospective acceptance. Ireland had at least the denial of Home Rule as a contributing factor. Catalonia isn't in the same situation at all. I'm sure they're all wondering how they've arrived at the situation they find themselves in. Mayhem.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: sid waddell on October 28, 2017, 05:13:06 PM
The default position of many leftists and Nationalists / Republicans is to support those looking Independence for no other reason than we can identify with their cause. I can't see past the fact that the situation has been manufactured by dodgy actions on the Independenistas side and the ham fistedness of Madrid, it doesn't feel like a natural progression  to Independence. If Independence does eventually come from this  it will be posinious for all concerned.
One could quite easily argue that the situation which led to the creation of the Irish Free State was manufactured by much "dodgier" actions on the "Independistas" side than have occurred in Catalonia, as well as "ham-fistedness" on the British side.

"It didn't feel like a natural progression to independence."

"Independence was poisonous for all concerned."
1916 was totally unwarranted and gained restrospective acceptance. Ireland had at least the denial of Home Rule as a contributing factor. Catalonia isn't in the same situation at all. I'm sure they're all wondering how they've arrived at the situation they find themselves in. Mayhem.
Spain has denied Catalonia self-determination. The situations are actually very similar. The Quebec and Scotland referendums provide a model for how to deal with such a situation. Spain has point blank refused to consider such a referendum.

What happened in Ireland from 1912 to 1922 rather better fits the definition of the term "mayhem" than what is happening in Catalonia at the moment.

But the creation of the vast majority of nation states arose from upheaval and/or resulted in some form of upheaval. That's the nature of such things.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: bennydorano on October 29, 2017, 05:48:50 PM
It'll be interesting to see what happens if pro-Independence parties are returned in increased numbers in the December polls. The Independenistas should rally their supporters rather than snub the election, with an increased pro-independence vote the likelihood of an authorised Constitutional Referendum has to increase.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: omaghjoe on December 10, 2017, 07:16:12 AM
So whats the latest?

Puigdemont arrest warrant dropped

Elections still happening?

What are the Catalans thinking at the moment.... all blown over? More entrenched than ever? Opportunity missed? Lynch the f**ker?
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on December 10, 2017, 10:03:04 AM
Elections on the 21st.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: gallsman on December 22, 2017, 12:59:34 PM
Back to square one. The three independence parties have enough to form a coalition, if they can get themselves to it. Ciutadans, who are anti independence, are the largest party.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Main Street on December 23, 2017, 12:45:58 AM
Prime minister's Rajoy's party took a hammering, its worst ever result and lost most of their seats to the unionist Catalan centrists,  an obvious message in there of disapproval.
Most important outcome of this election is that there is still a comfortable majority of deputies elected that support a referendum, 78 out of 135 and  the slender majority of declared separatists still held firm.
Imo it's Rajoy's party who have been the catalyst for the surge in Catalan separatism with their strutting of extreme  Spanish nationalism and persistent sniping away at Catalan autonomy with their legal challenges.

Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: whitey on December 23, 2017, 04:21:37 AM
The Catalans are heros for seeking independence, yet the Brits are rascisst Islamophobes for wanting out of the EU

Please discuss
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: Rossfan on December 23, 2017, 10:45:52 AM
EU voluntary association iof Sovereign States.
Spain an Imperialist Unitary State from which no part is allowed to leave.
I think you very aptly described the British Brexiteers.
Title: Re: Catalan Independence Movement
Post by: seafoid on December 23, 2017, 11:05:55 AM
The Catalans are heros for seeking independence, yet the Brits are rascisst Islamophobes for wanting out of the EU

Please discuss
The Catalans might be better off. The Brits won't.