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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: smelmoth on August 27, 2017, 04:37:43 PM

Title: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: smelmoth on August 27, 2017, 04:37:43 PM
Should be banned outright
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: armaghniac on August 27, 2017, 05:58:59 PM
Prayer brings rewards, but not to sinners who do not repent of their evil ways.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 27, 2017, 06:03:51 PM
It depends which God is on call at the time. Allah doesn't mind the Rosary but Shiva hates it .
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 27, 2017, 06:29:41 PM
God called it wrong in the paper yesterday anyway
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: rosnarun on August 28, 2017, 03:18:32 PM
son of god seemed to do alright
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on August 28, 2017, 03:58:02 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them. 
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 04:16:13 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on August 28, 2017, 04:23:03 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.
He asked them to say a prayer from his chosen religion. That is certainly more than a method of focusing the mind. That's not to say there were any objections of course.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on August 28, 2017, 04:29:07 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on August 28, 2017, 04:37:28 PM
On a similar topic, does anyone know if it's G.A.A. policy to use the term ar dheis de go raibh a h-anam before a minute's silence for someone that's died?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 28, 2017, 05:30:12 PM
On a similar topic, does anyone know if it's G.A.A. policy to use the term ar dheis de go raibh a h-anam before a minute's silence for someone that's died?
It's not GAA policy but is the customary blessing/saying as Gaeilge. Dia duit as hello has the same religious terminology if looked at pedantically but unless you anglicise the language I'm not sure what you can do.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on August 28, 2017, 05:36:11 PM
On a similar topic, does anyone know if it's G.A.A. policy to use the term ar dheis de go raibh a h-anam before a minute's silence for someone that's died?
It's not GAA policy but is the customary blessing/saying as Gaeilge. Dia duit as hello has the same religious terminology if looked at pedantically but unless you anglicise the language I'm not sure what you can do.
Good point. Just seems odd if the person that died, or his/her family, isn't of that persuasion.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 28, 2017, 06:21:05 PM
I was looking at some old RTE news footage from the 80s recently on youtube and found a report saying Cardinal Daly issued a statement saying there was to be no more personal eulogies at funerals. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Is this really a thing in the catholic church? You're not allowed to talk about the deceased at their own bloody funeral?!
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: southtyronegael on August 28, 2017, 06:44:26 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.
focusing the mind on what? God? Religion? What about focusing on your opponent, seems that was lacking yesterday.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 06:47:59 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.

Ah sure it's some mess, I don't possibly know how they functioned as a panel. Or maybe it isn't all that big a deal and it was discussed before hand and most of the players bought into it and an arrangement was made for those that weren't comfortable with it.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Mayo4Sam on August 28, 2017, 10:43:33 PM
I was looking at some old RTE news footage from the 80s recently on youtube and found a report saying Cardinal Daly issued a statement saying there was to be no more personal eulogies at funerals. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Is this really a thing in the catholic church? You're not allowed to talk about the deceased at their own bloody funeral?!

It is a think, the priest can in the sermon but the eulogy at the end isn't allowed. Almost universally ignored
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Itchy on August 28, 2017, 11:29:37 PM
I was looking at some old RTE news footage from the 80s recently on youtube and found a report saying Cardinal Daly issued a statement saying there was to be no more personal eulogies at funerals. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Is this really a thing in the catholic church? You're not allowed to talk about the deceased at their own bloody funeral?!

It is a think, the priest can in the sermon but the eulogy at the end isn't allowed. Almost universally ignored

Good to hear the legendary cardinal was working on important stuff when Paedos were running rampant.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 29, 2017, 06:59:06 AM
I think I was minor when I decided that 2 laps of the pitch was plenty on a cawl February night without the ball and did a go slow or somethin stupid like that, the whole thing escalated, dropped, took the huff,..... no football for me that year.....

Dare say I would take the same attitude to sports psychology these days...
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 29, 2017, 03:16:31 PM
On a similar topic, does anyone know if it's G.A.A. policy to use the term ar dheis de go raibh a h-anam before a minute's silence for someone that's died?
It's not GAA policy but is the customary blessing/saying as Gaeilge. Dia duit as hello has the same religious terminology if looked at pedantically but unless you anglicise the language I'm not sure what you can do.
Good point. Just seems odd if the person that died, or his/her family, isn't of that persuasion.
I don't think anybody is ever too bothered just as long as the prayer/wish/blessing is offered in a positive way. Obviously if your religion has a problem with standing on God's right hand side rather than the left we have big trouble.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on August 29, 2017, 03:21:51 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.

Ah sure it's some mess, I don't possibly know how they functioned as a panel. Or maybe it isn't all that big a deal and it was discussed before hand and most of the players bought into it and an arrangement was made for those that weren't comfortable with it.

I'm sure they functioned fine, because most people in that situation will just go along with it. I'd be surprised if anyone said that they were uncomfortable, but the principal remains; the GAA is not an exclusively catholic organisation and we aspire to attract participants from all parts of society.  The fact that we are mostly catholic is an even greater reason not to bring religion into the dressing room.  What message does it give to outsiders?  If you want religion, go to the chapel / church and don't push it on anyone else; because that is effectively what he is doing, from a position of power.   

Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: rosnarun on August 29, 2017, 04:01:16 PM
yes that's whats wrong with tyrone . too much prayer. not that they have indulged a manager for about 3 years too long and are afraid to even seriously discussed moving him on even after his latest humiliation
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Tyrone Gaa on August 29, 2017, 04:09:38 PM
yes that's whats wrong with tyrone . too much prayer. not that they have indulged a manager for about 3 years too long and are afraid to even seriously discussed moving him on even after his latest humiliation

Maybe there will be a player revolt to get a new manager in or is that only done in Mayo??
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Owen Brannigan on August 29, 2017, 11:28:30 PM
yes that's whats wrong with tyrone . too much prayer. not that they have indulged a manager for about 3 years too long and are afraid to even seriously discussed moving him on even after his latest humiliation

Maybe there will be a player revolt to get a new manager in or is that only done in Mayo??

Seems to have worked OK for them as they head into another AI final, fourth in last 6 years,  maybe worth trying.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Itchy on August 29, 2017, 11:39:26 PM
On a serious note, am I the only one that found this practice wrong.  Is it fair to assume that everyone that plays county football for Tyrone is a catholic or a lapsed catholic who has no objection to saying the rosary.  Are players from other religions and none welcome in Mickey's changing room?  If he had a conscientious objector, how would he cater for them.

How do you know he didn't?

 It was a method of focusing the mind pre match. Nothing more, nothing less. Don't get too worked up about it.

Let's say Mickey suggested it and you weren't comfortable? Do you say something? Do you say nothing?

Let's say there was someone that wasn't comfortable with it and said so. What options does he give them? OK then, we won't bother saying the Rosary?  Do you want to stand outside during the Rosary?  Just stand there and say nothing?
What if someone new is invited onto the panel. Do I have to say the Rosary if I play for Tyrone? I'm not comfortable with that, Can I say something?

Then you think about what kind of message this sends out to non-catholics within the GAA and outside it. 

I'm sure if you wanted a method of focusing the mind pre-match you could find all kinds of techniques without drawing them from religion. 

Finally, to address your little patronising comment at the end; I'm not worked up about it.  I just find it wrong and disagree with it.

Ah sure it's some mess, I don't possibly know how they functioned as a panel. Or maybe it isn't all that big a deal and it was discussed before hand and most of the players bought into it and an arrangement was made for those that weren't comfortable with it.

I'm sure they functioned fine, because most people in that situation will just go along with it. I'd be surprised if anyone said that they were uncomfortable, but the principal remains; the GAA is not an exclusively catholic organisation and we aspire to attract participants from all parts of society.  The fact that we are mostly catholic is an even greater reason not to bring religion into the dressing room.  What message does it give to outsiders?  If you want religion, go to the chapel / church and don't push it on anyone else; because that is effectively what he is doing, from a position of power.

Well said.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: T Fearon on August 29, 2017, 11:49:15 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on August 30, 2017, 01:30:54 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 04:05:08 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 30, 2017, 04:08:03 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Mexican colonisation. Catholics were very arrogant.
Mother and baby homes. Tsk tsk
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 04:15:51 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Mexican colonisation. Catholics were very arrogant.
Mother and baby homes. Tsk tsk

Bot does not compute...

The point was that Jock Stein was arrogant a non Catholic

How do we get from Jock Stein sending his players to mass to the conquistadors?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 30, 2017, 04:42:14 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 05:43:43 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 30, 2017, 05:48:12 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Catholicism murdered more people than the Nazis

Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 05:58:34 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Catholicism murdered more people than the Nazis

You should somehow try and program in a red herring flag to your programming Seafoid.

Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on August 30, 2017, 08:10:01 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 08:43:15 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 30, 2017, 08:52:42 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Catholicism murdered more people than the Nazis

You should somehow try and program in a red herring flag to your programming Seafoid.

Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???

Joe go read some history. Local religions were all exterminated in Latin America and churches built on holy sites. The Church sided with fascists in the Spanish civil war 

Your argument could be rephrased to say the Nazi party didn't kill people. GunS don't kill people etc ad nauseum
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2017, 09:02:13 PM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Catholicism murdered more people than the Nazis

You should somehow try and program in a red herring flag to your programming Seafoid.

Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???

Joe go read some history. Local religions were all exterminated in Latin America and churches built on holy sites. The Church sided with fascists in the Spanish civil war 

Your argument could be rephrased to say the Nazi party didn't kill people. GunS don't kill people etc ad nauseum

For a bot your surprisingly lacking in logic.... I'll post again concentrate on thw words this time


Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on August 30, 2017, 09:19:07 PM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.


Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2017, 05:28:48 AM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: lenny on August 31, 2017, 07:10:10 AM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Totally agree. If you look at the stats for young people who are actually practicing catholics as opposed to being born catholic it would be a small enough percentage. Unless the tyrone group of players are completely exceptional you would expect a good few of the players to have no interest in praying or going to mass. They just blindly go to mass and say the rosary following micky's orders because they fear consequences, ie being dropped. It's the old catholic guilt thing which micky is completely taking advantage of and it shows he rules in an atmosphere of fear. It also shows a group of players who can't think for themselves and it's a reason why they were completely dismantled by dublin.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: sensethetone on August 31, 2017, 07:48:34 AM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Totally agree. If you look at the stats for young people who are actually practicing catholics as opposed to being born catholic it would be a small enough percentage. Unless the tyrone group of players are completely exceptional you would expect a good few of the players to have no interest in praying or going to mass. They just blindly go to mass and say the rosary following micky's orders because they fear consequences, ie being dropped. It's the old catholic guilt thing which micky is completely taking advantage of and it shows he rules in an atmosphere of fear. It also shows a group of players who can't think for themselves and it's a reason why they were completely dismantled by dublin.

So you don't bother with the Chapel then Lenny?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: lenny on August 31, 2017, 08:52:51 AM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.

Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Totally agree. If you look at the stats for young people who are actually practicing catholics as opposed to being born catholic it would be a small enough percentage. Unless the tyrone group of players are completely exceptional you would expect a good few of the players to have no interest in praying or going to mass. They just blindly go to mass and say the rosary following micky's orders because they fear consequences, ie being dropped. It's the old catholic guilt thing which micky is completely taking advantage of and it shows he rules in an atmosphere of fear. It also shows a group of players who can't think for themselves and it's a reason why they were completely dismantled by dublin.

So you don't bother with the Chapel then Lenny?

I go once or twice a month on average but I don't see too many lads in their 20s there. The numbers are dwindling but maybe in Tyrone they're all exceptionally holy.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on August 31, 2017, 09:18:08 AM
The thing about Catholic prayers is they only work if you believe them. That was genius .
If you were poor and your life was shit you would get an upgrade in the next life. Genius.

If you spout enough mildly related nonsense you eventually can stumble back on point, you really need to improve your algorithms  ;)

If Jock Stein's players were Catholic, its save to assume that they believe prayer works so going to mass would likely be beneficial to their performance.

Much like sports psycology

Still wondering about Cortez tho?
Catholicism murdered more people than the Nazis

You should somehow try and program in a red herring flag to your programming Seafoid.

Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???

Joe go read some history. Local religions were all exterminated in Latin America and churches built on holy sites. The Church sided with fascists in the Spanish civil war 

Your argument could be rephrased to say the Nazi party didn't kill people. GunS don't kill people etc ad nauseum

For a bot your surprisingly lacking in logic.... I'll post again concentrate on thw words this time


Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

What in the world has this all got to do with Jock Stein???

People have been murdered in the name of Catholicism.
What has jock stein got to do with Tyrone players saying the rosary?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on August 31, 2017, 09:32:29 AM
What about Jock Stein, a non catholic, who nonetheless made all his catholic players attend mass on Holidays of Obligation, if Celtic were away on European business.


Very arrogant and presumptuous of him.

Was a different time. He rightly would not get away with such nonsense these days.

How is it arrogant if someone is a Catholic?

Isn't Sports Psychology being even more presumptive and getting away with it these days?

Ok Joe, its NOT arrogant and presumptuous to force someone else to go to mass.

Christ lad, you'd argue black is white just for the craic! ;D

Whatever sports psychology (whether its Jim McGuinness or Enda McNulty or Eileen Drury or whatever) is or isn't is irrelevant to the fact that forcing a subordinate to attend a religious ceremony is inappropriate.

Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

If they were Catholic its entirely appropriate as he probably feels it would get them in the right place for performance.

Didn't say it was more or less inappropriate.

I said whatever the rights and wrongs of sports psychology, forcing people over whom you hold power to partake in religious ceremonies, just because they were raised catholic, is absolutely inappropriate and unjustifiable, especially in this day and age. You're arrogantly presuming that you know what is best, from a religious perspective, for an individual.

It may well be the case also for the use of sports psychology. Or it may not (I don't know enough about the field). I would hope that a player would be free to opt out of such sessions if they did not find them useful. And I would hope that any player would be free to tell Mickey Harte where to stick his rosary without fear of penalty or other repercussion.

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

You just made the point for me; someone in a position of power is thrusting his religion onto subordinates. 

I'll say it again: the GAA is not an exclusively catholic organisation and we aspire to attract participants from all parts of society.  The fact that we are mostly catholic is an even greater reason not to bring religion into the dressing room.  What message does it give to non-members who we claim to welcome. 


 
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Rossfan on August 31, 2017, 10:18:43 AM
Many protestants playing gaelic football in Tyrone?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Hardy on August 31, 2017, 10:39:50 AM
Many protestants playing gaelic football in Tyrone?

You all keep making APM's point.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: rosnarun on August 31, 2017, 10:45:46 AM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: The Iceman on August 31, 2017, 12:23:25 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on August 31, 2017, 01:12:38 PM

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on August 31, 2017, 01:13:59 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died

Well sure why don't you instruct us on how it should be done and where we are going wrong?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on August 31, 2017, 02:12:30 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
Your posts are a good indication of what's wrong with our education system. It's the first word of a sentence that has the capital letter, not the last.

Social media died because people on a forum argued with each other? Would that not be one reason as to why it thrives?

I see good arguments being made on both sides. Well played everyone.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on August 31, 2017, 02:19:02 PM
I would disassociate myself from the religion-bashing on here.  What religious beliefs I have are my own and I feel no need to express them here.  It is perfectly possible to be religious, but to understand that many people don't share your beliefs or would be annoyed if I took to insisting that we pray together.  Ask yourself how you would feel if you heard that the Ulster rugby coach insisted on holding hands and singing psalms together before games?   
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 31, 2017, 03:18:26 PM
You can't pray reality to do what you want. Ask Tyrone  . You cannot make people act coherently. But you can change the way you see things.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: thejuice on August 31, 2017, 03:34:28 PM
Next year Andy and the lads will be sacrificing a young bullock on the keystone at Newgrange during the summer solstice.

We'll probably be out of Leinster at that stage but it might get us through the backdoor if Lugh looks upon us favourably after that. He wasn't happy with Tayto crisps that's for sure.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: rosnarun on August 31, 2017, 03:36:46 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
Your posts are a good indication of what's wrong with our education system. It's the first word of a sentence that has the capital letter, not the last.

Social media died because people on a forum argued with each other? Would that not be one reason as to why it thrives?

I see good arguments being made on both sides. Well played everyone.


this is not argument this is people Gainsaying and bullying and belittling anyone who does not agree with them .
and your reduction of my point to one of misspelling just give me that warm glow of Confirmation Bias


Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Hardy on August 31, 2017, 04:14:41 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
Your posts are a good indication of what's wrong with our education system. It's the first word of a sentence that has the capital letter, not the last.

Social media died because people on a forum argued with each other? Would that not be one reason as to why it thrives?

I see good arguments being made on both sides. Well played everyone.


this is not argument this is people Gainsaying and bullying and belittling anyone who does not agree with them .
and your reduction of my point to one of misspelling just give me that warm glow of Confirmation Bias




In fairness, Mickey probably doesn't even think he's bullying them.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on August 31, 2017, 04:31:14 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
Your posts are a good indication of what's wrong with our education system. It's the first word of a sentence that has the capital letter, not the last.

Social media died because people on a forum argued with each other? Would that not be one reason as to why it thrives?

I see good arguments being made on both sides. Well played everyone.


this is not argument this is people Gainsaying and bullying and belittling anyone who does not agree with them .
and your reduction of my point to one of misspelling just give me that warm glow of Confirmation Bias
Funny, I feel all warm too.

Your point deserved to be reduced as it was a complete over-statement. The death of social media? And it wasn't misspelling you were guilty of.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on August 31, 2017, 04:46:11 PM
Next year Andy and the lads will be sacrificing a young bullock on the keystone at Newgrange during the summer solstice.

We'll probably be out of Leinster at that stage but it might get us through the backdoor if Lugh looks upon us favourably after that. He wasn't happy with Tayto crisps that's for sure.
The centre half back has to have sex with a horse according to Giraldus Cambrensis. He would have been an ancestor of Tommy Walsh.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: easytiger95 on August 31, 2017, 05:42:46 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Rossfan on August 31, 2017, 06:31:56 PM
Will the Tyrone players now stop saying the Rosary?
If so will it be because
A they felt it didn't help
B some people on GAAboard said it was wrong
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Whishtup on August 31, 2017, 07:56:08 PM
I don't know. Derrytresk had a special mass the night before the Dromid Pearse's game. That worked a treat.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2017, 08:43:45 PM

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2017, 09:00:50 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.

How is the discussion about Jock Stein a Red herring? The discussion was specifically about Jock Stein handling his Catholic players. Logic eh you inventing logic fallacies FFS.. that might be a new type of logical fallacy now that i think about it

Ive discussed this thing about logic and evidence with you a 1000 times. It seems your gathered your belief from faith in science as the whole truth which (whether you realise it of not) stems from dogma of empiricism and materialism. There is absolutely no reason to suppose that either of those are fully accurate. In fact since your mentioning logic I will have to invoke the most acceptably acclaimed work on logic......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Pure_Reason
Which is in direct opposition to empiricism and materialism.

So which do you choose ET?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: easytiger95 on August 31, 2017, 09:27:25 PM
No the discussion was about Mickey Harte forcing all his players to say the rosary pre-match.

I can prove this empirically. That's what it says on the thread title.

The Jock Stein comment was an aside from Tony Fearon. But you've never seen a point you didn't miss.

As for Kant, you should try Schopenhauer's later critque of his work. Very illuminating.

As for what side I'm on, tell you what, you pick one and I'll go the other. I'm fairly sure I can't go wrong with that.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Rossfan on August 31, 2017, 11:39:48 PM
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: thejuice on September 01, 2017, 12:07:21 AM
Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.

Humans are a funny sort and sometimes we need these unfathomable symbols and gestures to pull together either for good or ill sometimes.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 01, 2017, 12:36:29 AM

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.

I think it was arrogant and presumptuous of Stein, but perhaps more defensible given the time, as I've already conceded. Such an attitude of "knowing best" is of course appropriate and necessary when it comes to a lot of issues with running a team (or any organization), for reasons we've both outlined when it comes to standards and expectations necessary for performance. Its extension to the forced participation in a religious ceremony, at least in this day and age, is absolutely questionable and objectionable.

Given your dismissal of me as a "closed minded fundamentalist", would you think it appropriate for me to run the Donegal senior team and insist on them getting together before the match with some kind of "there is no god, only the glory we make for ourselves right here and now" type of chant? Or maybe some political chant? Or would it be more appropriate for me to leave my own feelings on the existence of gods or politics at home and find some other means to try to inspire the team to pull together? Would you be comfortable if you were based out in the middle east and everyone, if they were going to play for the team, was expected to get down, face east and praise Allah before heading out on the pitch? We are talking about sports teams here, remember, not religious organizations. Religion, as I've already said, is a highly contentious and personal issue. It has its place in society for those who want it, but a sports team that is supposed to be based purely on ability and dedication and is supposed to be open to all, regardless of race or creed, is not an appropriate outlet.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: APM on September 01, 2017, 12:37:10 AM
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

It doesn't matter if he asked them or not.  It tells reinforces the outsider view that GAA is for catholics and we wouldn't be welcome there.    What impression does it give to people that we aspire to welcome into the GAA?  Instead of having an argument about religion = bad or religion = good, surely  it is possible to understand that you don't have to be anti-religion (I'm not, but not a fan of evangelising) to understand how this is perceived outside the association and outside the team.  And it is also fair to ask whether the players would be able to say no if the man that picks the team asks them to say the rosary together. 

Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.


But religion is different particularly in the north. 
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 01, 2017, 12:51:16 AM
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants. I'd imagine at least some resented it, some were bored and endured it as a small price to pay for getting on the team, and others found value in it.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 01, 2017, 01:02:24 AM
Sure is it any different to doing the Hakka or writing "Work Like Dogs" on your wrist or whatever it was Portumna did. Is going to mass any different than proclaiming to be on the same team.

Humans are a funny sort and sometimes we need these unfathomable symbols and gestures to pull together either for good or ill sometimes.

Is the Haka or "work like god" catch phrase a potential source of division or exclusion?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 01, 2017, 06:38:28 AM

Your moving the goalposts to fit your antirelgious bias
Tony said it was the Catholic players not "raised Catholic" so our discussion is based on that.
If a player adheres to a believe system its entirely appropriate for the manager to ask them to fulful it as well as he can.
Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption not an arrogant one, whats different now than the 60s?

Sports Psychology would be considered the same as any other preparation technique whether that be diet, S&C or team training, if you decided you arent gonna  do it cos you dont believe it would be any use you would end up like me when I was a minor out on your hole.

There's not a manger in the country would stand for 2nd guessing his techniques on training psychology, team building, routines or anything else, sometimes players have to sacrifice part of themselves as individuals for the good of the team.

As for telling Mickey Harte to stick his rosary up his hole without recriminations catch yourself on FFS, any insult like that carrys consequences. Look at Kevin Cassidy / JMG incident, Cassidy did less than insult the manager and I thought JMG was wrong but you couldn't argue with the end result.

I would say that what is different now than in the 60s, to state the obvious, is that the position of religion as a foundational stone of society and well being is no longer a given. Whatever excuse Stein might have had back in the day when most people practiced their given faith and active participation far exceeded non-participation, could not be considered valid today. Unless you are going to tell me that the 25-30 lads who make up the Tyrone Senior Football squad and its management are some statistical anomaly in an era of plummeting catholic participation in Ireland, then it is obvious that Mickey Harte is arrogantly presuming that all these lads are either comfortable with being made say the rosary before game or doesn't give a shite if they're not (if that is what he is in fact doing and is making everyone take part).

We are not talking about standards of fitness, diet, staying off the drink, practicing your skills, learning the tactics, or even talking to a trained professional psychologist about your issues and life. Those are all part and parcel of sports management, no matter where in the world you are.

There are plenty of ways to foster team unity and identity without assuming that an issue as contentious and personal as religion is the medium through which to accomplish it.

And, honestly, its very short sighted. I wouldn't allow my kids to play for a man who made them take part in a religious ceremony as a condition of being on the squad. I wouldn't accede to it for myself. We looked into having my son join the US boy scouts last year, but the declarations they required in terms of belief in a god and so forth quickly dispelled any such notions. Their loss.

Im not really sure what has changed from the 60s if a player is a Catholic. Your saying society has changed but really and truly the relationship between a faith adherent who is a member of a professional sports team, the church and his manager remains the same. Wider society has very little to do with it...
Ill presume tho by ignoring the main point about Jock Stein tho that you conceding that he was not arrogant.

It appears that your logic for your position on this comes from a viewpoint that only things that are part of sports management worldwide should be acceptable?  :o Sure managers have always looked to new ways to get the most from their players, evoking religion is no different. Anyway hasn't religion always been part of sports?

Would say your closed minded fundamentalist stance is not a good your making things very narrow and depriving opportunities to learn, but that's your own choice. I don't think the scouts would give a shit whether your in or not. I vote for politician that I disagreed strongly with aspects of their manifesto but I thought it was worth compromising.  You should have a read of an Unsocial Socialist.

I think it was arrogant and presumptuous of Stein, but perhaps more defensible given the time, as I've already conceded. Such an attitude of "knowing best" is of course appropriate and necessary when it comes to a lot of issues with running a team (or any organization), for reasons we've both outlined when it comes to standards and expectations necessary for performance. Its extension to the forced participation in a religious ceremony, at least in this day and age, is absolutely questionable and objectionable.

Given your dismissal of me as a "closed minded fundamentalist", would you think it appropriate for me to run the Donegal senior team and insist on them getting together before the match with some kind of "there is no god, only the glory we make for ourselves right here and now" type of chant? Or maybe some political chant? Or would it be more appropriate for me to leave my own feelings on the existence of gods or politics at home and find some other means to try to inspire the team to pull together? Would you be comfortable if you were based out in the middle east and everyone, if they were going to play for the team, was expected to get down, face east and praise Allah before heading out on the pitch? We are talking about sports teams here, remember, not religious organizations. Religion, as I've already said, is a highly contentious and personal issue. It has its place in society for those who want it, but a sports team that is supposed to be based purely on ability and dedication and is supposed to be open to all, regardless of race or creed, is not an appropriate outlet.

Jock's results mean that his methods could hardly be called into question. People do sports for various reasons including religious belief so why would it be precluded besides in the interest of fairness you'd also have to get rid of other potential divisive issues like national anthems and advertising. In fact why stop there cos the most divisive thing in sports is the bloody teams themselves.....

Anyway my understanding was that Mickey Harte consulted with players and he got positive feedback.

If I was in the middle east I wouldn't play football cos id melt but seriously i wouldn't partake in another religous ritual, Id do my own simple as, if it was illegal like in Saudi Arabia or going to put my or my family in danger I wouldn't partake, but thats hardly a fair comparison.
Title: Locking the Tyrone getting hammered thread.
Post by: punt kick on September 01, 2017, 07:58:22 AM
Really made my day lads!


Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: rionach 4 on September 01, 2017, 08:58:33 AM
 Would have problems with the rosary on my dev.team. Three of my players are devout Muslims
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on September 01, 2017, 11:30:57 AM
Omaghjoe, (not going to quote your piece as half the page will be taken up) are you seriously saying, regardless of the broader discussion, that Stein's results justify his methods, i.e. the end justifies the means regardless of what they may be?

I'm not sure what you mean by people do sports for religious reasons but I agree that players shouldn't have to stand to attention for the national anthem and also shouldn't have to bear a sponsor on their jerseys if the see fit. This will be problematic but I suppose it should be stated to those concerned when the player enters then panel/squad.

I'd say the rosary evening if it meant me or a family member not being killed.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Rossfan on September 01, 2017, 11:49:03 AM
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants.
On last Sunday's evidence I'd say all the Tyrone players are true meek and mild non violent turn the other cheek Christians.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: lenny on September 01, 2017, 12:04:48 PM
Have we any proof that MH "forced" his players to say the Rosary?
Maybe they all agreed?
Maybe he just asked them?

Maybe he did. I don't know the man or the players involved personally. Would they feel free to say "ah no Mickey, I can see your faith means a lot to you, but I'll pass if you don't mind"?

The discussion is proceeding on the premise that it was forced or expected, whether in reality it was or not. I can't speak for others, but I've qualified my statements in those terms, that it is more about the principle than the actual reality which I am not personally privy to.

However, in this day and age, I'd be shocked if all of those people were enthusiastic participants. I'd imagine at least some resented it, some were bored and endured it as a small price to pay for getting on the team, and others found value in it.

Totally agree with this point. I'd imagine the players would have felt it was something they had to do and couldn't say no. Quite a few may have been enthusiastic but I'm pretty sure there would've been a number who completely resented it. A bit like the "rte ban" the players felt they couldn't think for themselves and defy micky.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 01, 2017, 12:08:57 PM
So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on September 01, 2017, 01:06:34 PM
So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.
I don't think it's fair. I was just agreeing with the right to object to it. I also disagree if Harte made some players pray or go to mass.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: sensethetone on September 01, 2017, 01:12:32 PM
So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.
I don't think it's fair. I was just agreeing with the right to object to it. I also disagree if Harte made some players pray or go to mass.

Has Harte forced anyone to pray or go to mass? certainly nobody should be forced.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Franko on September 01, 2017, 01:20:45 PM
So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I think you need to calm down and get a little perspective here.  None of the players have come out and said they were against it (opposite in fact) and people on this thread are running round creating whole "other world" hypothetical scenarios where Harte is going to kick boys off the panel for not doing it.  :-\ :-\

PS.  I really dislike Harte but if this is how he wants to manage the team that's his call.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: The Iceman on September 01, 2017, 01:22:09 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.
You open your argument with no room for compromise. I'm smart you are stupid. I live in a rational world you do not. I belief in evidence you do not.  Those are some major leaps and leave no room in your world for discussion.

That is what is wrong with the board.  It's the ongoing theme running through most threads. Digs at people here and there.  The attitude of superiority because we're rational and logic....Comments to get a rise from people. I rarely get involved because there is no point anymore. But despite all of your jumping up and down at my "stupidity", my faith remains strong....

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'd love to know if that really was the case in the Tyrone dressing room or if it's merely speculation.  I do know that at the underage level there are strong ties between the local parish, Catholicism and Gaelic sports. Who knows if the lads actually on the team wanted to go along with it. I'd love to hear from someone actually involved.  And if some didn't want to pray, what provision was made for them and what affect did it have on them or the team? All questions nobody here, so far, has been able to answer.

I don't know if you would talk to random people you met in a bar or in your work place the way you talk on here. I've rarely seen in real life what I've read on here.  People are very comfortable hiding behind the security of a screen and the anonymity of the internet. I will say that over the years many of the longer time posters have made an effort to get to know each other (even a little bit) through IM or on FB or in person and it makes such a difference.  We can still disagree afterwards and we still do in most cases but we disagree with civility and respect, not scorn and ridicule.

Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 01, 2017, 01:28:53 PM
So are we saying that saying the rosary is equivalent to standing for the national anthem or wearing the words "Abbey Hotel" or "Arnotts" or "insert real controversial company name here" on your shirt??

Colin Kaepernick has been effectively black listed in the NFL now as owners, in a league bereft of quarterback talent, don't want to deal with the publicity associated with his national anthem protests. Is that a fair fate for the Gaelic football player who raises his head above the parapet and tells his manager, justifiably, that the manager's and his own religious beliefs and practices are private, personal issues and should be left at home?

Anthems can be controversial. We all know that from the NI team and the Irish rugby team, but that controversy comes from issues of inclusiveness. Justifying the saying of the rosary with the fact that Neil Lennon had to stand for GSTQ is hardly a ringing endorsement.

I think you need to calm down and get a little perspective here.  None of the players have come out and said they were against it (opposite in fact) and people on this thread are running round creating whole "other world" hypothetical scenarios where Harte is going to kick boys off the panel for not doing it.  :-\ :-\

PS.  I really dislike Harte but if this is how he wants to manage the team that's his call.

First, I am very calm.

Second, I've already stated, several times, that I've no idea what the actual Tyrone-Harte situation is.

I'm not discussing that - I'm discussing the principle, the idea that players would be required to take part in religious rituals or prayers or other routines or ceremonies as a condition of membership of a squad.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 01, 2017, 02:41:12 PM
How true is it that Harte is making the players say the rosary? And by saying the rosary is he actually making each player individually say a couple of Hail Marys or is he happy for them to stand with their head bowed while he does a decade?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: easytiger95 on September 01, 2017, 03:15:27 PM
this thread is a good representative of all that is wrong with the internet,
it should be saved in a museum with the label how social media Died
the board is a joke these days. I really only read posts now and rarely contribute.  I lie the banter with the lads on the NFL fantasy football thread and read the local gaa news but it's hard to interact otherwise.
Theres a lot of lads with axes to grind and old arguments that were never settled that spill in to every thread.
The ongoing anti-religion theme running through everything is saddening.  A lot of ones arguing for the sake of it and commenting just to get a rise out of ones.
Everyone needs to take responsibility  - we're all part of the problem but we're all part of the solution too.

The divide on the board is not about the religious v anti religionists, it is about people who believe that rationalism and logic should supercede irrationalism, non-evidence based beliefs (which covers a huge swath of areas beside religion) and cultural/social/religious discrimination in human relationships and interactions.

The fact of the matter is, that there are plenty of people with religious faith who reside in the former category as well as atheists, whilst, unfortunately, the latter category is almost exclusively made up of members who claim a strong faith in God. Which makes it easy to frame an argument about rational choices as an attack on religion.

I do agree that the board has gone to hell (figuratively, not literally - I'm a card carrying agnostic). And men of goodwill should be able to frame an argument about the use of religion without disrespecting the concept of religion (which I believe happened here). Inversely, they should be able to accept that a desire for a fact based discussion is not an attack on faith.

The Jock Stein thing is a complete red herring - we live in a different (and I believe a better) world than 60s Glasgow. An elite athlete walking into a dressing room expects to see elements of sports psychology, whether they want to use it or not (and they should have a choice). However, the use of a specific religious prayer as part of a pre-match routine, is definitely not routine, is not inclusive, and should not be used in that context.

The only excuse for its use would be if the group itself thought it might aid them and suggested it to Harte. Others above have mentioned the unlikely odds of all members of the Tyrone panel being devout Catholics. Again, if you reside in a non-rational world, you will ignore this. You don't have to be religious to reside there.

I doubt it caused Tyrone to lose. That was definitely because God blessed Dublin with some super footballers.
You open your argument with no room for compromise. I'm smart you are stupid. I live in a rational world you do not. I belief in evidence you do not.  Those are some major leaps and leave no room in your world for discussion.

That is what is wrong with the board.  It's the ongoing theme running through most threads. Digs at people here and there.  The attitude of superiority because we're rational and logic....Comments to get a rise from people. I rarely get involved because there is no point anymore. But despite all of your jumping up and down at my "stupidity", my faith remains strong....

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'd love to know if that really was the case in the Tyrone dressing room or if it's merely speculation.  I do know that at the underage level there are strong ties between the local parish, Catholicism and Gaelic sports. Who knows if the lads actually on the team wanted to go along with it. I'd love to hear from someone actually involved.  And if some didn't want to pray, what provision was made for them and what affect did it have on them or the team? All questions nobody here, so far, has been able to answer.

I don't know if you would talk to random people you met in a bar or in your work place the way you talk on here. I've rarely seen in real life what I've read on here.  People are very comfortable hiding behind the security of a screen and the anonymity of the internet. I will say that over the years many of the longer time posters have made an effort to get to know each other (even a little bit) through IM or on FB or in person and it makes such a difference.  We can still disagree afterwards and we still do in most cases but we disagree with civility and respect, not scorn and ridicule.

Jesus Christ, talk about missing the point. If you read what I actually said, it was there is a divide on the board, between those who prefer evidence based arguments (about anything) and those who don't. The "those who don't" are mainly made up of people of faith, but that doesn't excuse disregarding rationalism. I also said there are plenty of people of faith who do embrace rationalism. I also made it clear that one of the main things that divides the board is people of faith(who are against evidence based arguments) claiming an argument from rationalism was an attack on their faith. No matter what the subject. As this subject clearly illustrates.

This topic is not an argument against faith. It is an argument against evangelising that faith in (what I believe to be) inappropriate cirumstances.
This is all about punching down - any member of the squad who did have reservations about saying the rosary, would find it difficult to raise those complaints, simply because MH is the boss essentially. It doesn't mean that he was doing it deliberately or maliciously or in a bigoted way - he just forgot that there might be others there who feel differently to him, and even if there wasn't, down the road there could be. So in effect, it is about respect for individuals, rather than those individuals religious feelings. At worst, inappropriate, but definitely worth having the discussion over.

You'll also have to point out where I called you "stupid" in the post quoted above, as I take it that your use of the word in inverted commas means that I have?

I started my post with my analysis of the "divide" that I agreed (with you) had opened up on the board. It was you who placed yourself on the side of the divide that you - you - have labelled "stupid". I was actually leaving space for you to argue, because I appreciated the tone of your post and I dislike anyone being attacked for reason of their faith, as anyone who has read my contributions over the years knows. Where I will argue is when the end result of that faith is to cause actions which have material damage on people or cultures. Otherwise you can worship who, when and where you please.

It might interest you to know that I have been posting on this board a long time before your appearance, usually in the same tone and about the same subjects, that I feel passionately about. The only two things that have changed since 2001 and now is that the Dubs win now and I have lost a lot of my sense of humour about these things. Because I really have seen this board go downhill, I really have seen people come on here, and use the same brash disregard for truth and rationalism that characterised the rise of buffoons like Johnson, Le Pen, Trump et al. (and right now my spidey sense is tingling that Omaghjoe is about to unleash another philosophically convoluted essay about what I should believe truth or rationalism to be, completely disregarding the simple premise that people should not be asked to participate in religious ceremonies as prerequisites to sporting activities - can't wait to read it).

It almost might interest you to know that I turned up at the one and only Gadderin' of the Board, back in the 2000s. I also have revealed my real name on this board, my occupation, and received help and advice from many of its members. I don't hide my face here and I don't hide my opinions.

As I pointed out above, I never used the word "stupid" with regard to you in my previous post. It would be churlish to point out, that given your misreading of my post, that I'm more than willing to do so now. So let me finish with this - whenever you're in Dublin, you're more than welcome to PM to meet and continue the conversation face to face. I might be funnier in person, you never know.

Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: AZOffaly on September 01, 2017, 03:23:16 PM
Most of lads on this board were dead sound when I met them. It's a bit sad the way it's gone here in the past few years. Argumentative for the sake of being argumentative. It's getting to be a tiring place. If it wasn't for the odd good chat, I doubt I'd bother any more.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: The Iceman on September 01, 2017, 03:49:31 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 01, 2017, 03:51:17 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: easytiger95 on September 01, 2017, 04:07:06 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

No problem Iceman, we've definitely had our differences but I would never doubt or disparage your faith. Invitation still stands.

It has gone very bad here. I used to try and make an effort to write the odd humorous piece, I just don't see the point of it anymore. But I think, in general, I think culture has definitely got more polarised.


Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 01, 2017, 08:59:49 PM
ALright I will give it a rest here obviously not going to gain anything more one this, and between weans and work I dont have the time these days any road.

But I will depart the subject by saying that I believe Harte is well within his rights to try whatever method he sees fit as long as he and is players see value in it, there should be no exclusion to anything legal.

I acknowledge that I post on faith matters quite a bit, funnily enuff I wouldnt classify myself as a real HolyJoe or anything but I do feel that alot of the antifaith posts on here are not thought out and the rationale not applied equally to other things that are taken for granted. So, I challenge those posts and while I get a lot of flack I dont care because logic trumps all and its perfectly apparent to me that many if not all anti religious posters on here do not apply their rationale equally, probably without realising it TBF.

I have to say I do get a bit tetchy with some posters. And i do enjoy these long discussions with opposing views, J70 and Esmerlda in particular (and actually Muppet too when he was about believe it or not) are good value. They at least appear open to the logic of the conversation even if they (J70 in particular! ;P) are never going to change his mind.
Alot of the other commenters are self righteous and prepared to oppose you on every sentence because you disagree or challenge their views. And then they start at the idiotic ad hominen which I used to ignore as its pretty stupid but we are susceptable to getting sucked into that trap.
But its tough luck for them, as logic is what it is and if you apply it to one thing then you have to apply it to the other.

BTW lads this is a anonymous discussion board. If you dont like that join a non-anonymous one or declare you name like Fearon, who cares FFS?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 01, 2017, 09:03:07 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 02, 2017, 08:10:53 AM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said not all scientists believe it exists
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: mrhardyannual on September 02, 2017, 06:48:02 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 03, 2017, 09:07:13 AM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: trileacman on September 03, 2017, 12:05:31 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: trileacman on September 03, 2017, 12:15:43 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 03, 2017, 01:13:34 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 01:54:03 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Given that science and knowledge are incomplete and always accumulating, I'm sure there will be some ideas which will be discarded. However, we are talking about an accumulation and refining of knowledge, filling in the gaps and making modifications, NOT wiping the blackboard clean and starting all over again every century.

There was little meat on the bones of the geocentrists' ideas, certainly nothing remotely comparable to the evidence used to support the various scientific theories and paradigms which currently prevail. Similarly ancient people thought lightning was some manifestation of the anger of the gods - are we supposed to hold out for a divine cause of a thunderstorm as opposed to the phenomena that are well understood by meteorologists?

Just WHAT ideas on which atheism is supposedly hung do you think the "pseudo-intellectuals" will be dismissing in 100 years? Just the big bang? Evolution? Tectonics? Or are we just talking the very small pieces of the puzzle?

As for "rationalization" of where the universe came from, just which creation myth do you think we should use when claiming that its as valid as scientific theorizing?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 02:00:25 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

Do you avail of medical care? Do you fly? Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 02:04:32 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 03, 2017, 02:36:18 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!

Not sure I get you mate. I believe in god. I sometimes find it hard to combine my faith with he knowledge I have learned from 📖 my science
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 03:18:10 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!

Not sure I get you mate. I believe in god. I sometimes find it hard to combine my faith with he knowledge I have learned from 📖 my science

Just saying that reconciling the two is not a problem for many people, including the Catholic Church. There are enough gaps in knowledge to squeeze a god in there, if you really believe in it.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 03, 2017, 03:30:20 PM
J70 your reverting to your age old assumption that the empirical universe is all there is and that universe follows laws.
And that a God can only fill in the gaps in the knowlegde
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the case.
 
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 03:37:23 PM
J70 your reverting to your age old assumption that the empirical universe is all there is and that universe follows laws.
And that a God can only fill in the gaps in the knowlegde
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the case.

I was specifically addressing Tonto's comment on his struggle reconciling science and religion.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 03, 2017, 03:48:04 PM
J70 your reverting to your age old assumption that the empirical universe is all there is and that universe follows laws.
And that a God can only fill in the gaps in the knowlegde
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the case.

I was specifically addressing Tonto's comment on his struggle reconciling science and religion.
Yes by attempting to corral him into God of the Gaps
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 03, 2017, 03:58:55 PM
J70 your reverting to your age old assumption that the empirical universe is all there is and that universe follows laws.
And that a God can only fill in the gaps in the knowlegde
There is absolutely no reason to assume that the case.

I was specifically addressing Tonto's comment on his struggle reconciling science and religion.
Yes by attempting to corral him into God of the Gaps

Feel free to advise him yourself Joe.

I saw someone commenting on how his science background has impacted on his religious outlook. I merely made a comment on the fact that even if science explains much that used to be attributed to religious sources, there is plenty of unknown stuff left on which one could hang one's hat with respect to religious belief. I see nothing controversial about that comment given that he is talking about science to begin with.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 03, 2017, 04:16:25 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!

Not sure I get you mate. I believe in god. I sometimes find it hard to combine my faith with he knowledge I have learned from 📖 my science

Just saying that reconciling the two is not a problem for many people, including the Catholic Church. There are enough gaps in knowledge to squeeze a god in there, if you really believe in it.

I don't really want to get into discussing my faith but I do more Jan just squeeze a god in there. I think I know what you're saying though
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 09:38:51 PM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 09:43:38 PM
Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

Sports psychology covers a multitude. Jury is out on a lot of it. The view of sensible people will be evidence lead. Stuff that doesn't work will be called out as horse shit.

The rosary will be subject to the same test. Stands to reason
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 09:52:27 PM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 10:15:16 PM
I believe Harte is well within his rights to try whatever method he sees fit as long as he and is players see value in it, there should be no exclusion to anything legal.

Is that the deal here? If it's legal then anything goes? What about morals/ethics? Have they any role in life, sport or indeed religion?

I'm not saying that the rosary is unethical. I would contend it's a waste of time but not unethical
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 10:20:10 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 03, 2017, 10:24:59 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!

Room for God?????

The gaps in knowledge leaves a opportunity for alternatives but for something to fill a gap it needs evidence. It can't just be that God fills the gap by default whilst the gap continues to exist
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 03, 2017, 10:50:01 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included

How do you figure that?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: trileacman on September 04, 2017, 12:15:16 AM
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

Do you avail of medical care? Do you fly? Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

No need to be so tetchy about this. There's a lot of questions there.

Quote
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Please rephrase. I don't understand that question.

Quote
Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

No I don't. I expect people to respect the beliefs of others and not sneer at them with a sense of glib superiority because they've seen a 10 minute video on youtube about the creation of the universe. The majority of people who believe in the big bang theory have only a passing knowledge of it and are oblivious to the numerous contradictions and inaccuracies it possesses. They believe it because it's a popular theory and people they perceive to be smarter than them espouse it. That's pretty much how the religions that they denigrate work.

Quote
Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

You see this is the atheism fervour I was referring to. Where did I say that religion is not to be written off as the creation of total strangers? Where did I say that people must rely on people personally known to us? If you can find examples of where I support "RELIGION" then point them out to me.

Quote
Do you avail of medical care?
Yes

Quote
Do you fly?
Yeah but it's shite.

Quote
Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

I trust others but there's a difference in trusting the knowledge of others and hijacking pieces of information to deride the beliefs of others. Beliefs instilled in them the same way as your beliefs where instilled in yourself.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 04, 2017, 08:22:01 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included

How do you figure that?

Anyone want to spell out their faith in Woden/Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, Pan, Krishna, Thor etc?

If they don't believe in them would they care to spell out the grounds for their atheism?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: tonto1888 on September 04, 2017, 09:05:02 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included

How do you figure that?

Anyone want to spell out their faith in Woden/Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, Pan, Krishna, Thor etc?

If they don't believe in them would they care to spell out the grounds for their atheism?

Sonny not believing in those gods they are atheist?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 04, 2017, 11:35:16 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included

How do you figure that?

Anyone want to spell out their faith in Woden/Odin, Zeus, Jupiter, Pan, Krishna, Thor etc?

If they don't believe in them would they care to spell out the grounds for their atheism?

Sonny not believing in those gods they are atheist?

It would make them as atheistic about those gods as I am about Yahweh
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 04, 2017, 12:59:56 PM
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

Do you avail of medical care? Do you fly? Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

No need to be so tetchy about this. There's a lot of questions there.

Quote
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Please rephrase. I don't understand that question.

Quote
Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

No I don't. I expect people to respect the beliefs of others and not sneer at them with a sense of glib superiority because they've seen a 10 minute video on youtube about the creation of the universe. The majority of people who believe in the big bang theory have only a passing knowledge of it and are oblivious to the numerous contradictions and inaccuracies it possesses. They believe it because it's a popular theory and people they perceive to be smarter than them espouse it. That's pretty much how the religions that they denigrate work.

Quote
Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

You see this is the atheism fervour I was referring to. Where did I say that religion is not to be written off as the creation of total strangers? Where did I say that people must rely on people personally known to us? If you can find examples of where I support "RELIGION" then point them out to me.

Quote
Do you avail of medical care?
Yes

Quote
Do you fly?
Yeah but it's shite.

Quote
Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

I trust others but there's a difference in trusting the knowledge of others and hijacking pieces of information to deride the beliefs of others. Beliefs instilled in them the same way as your beliefs where instilled in yourself.

Ok, so you don't like it when your friends sneer at the beliefs of others because your consider your friends' opinions as ill- considered as the opinions they're deriding.

As an aside, I would question why you are friends with such people if they anger you so?

But getting back, just who IS allowed to comment on religious belief then? Because religion makes claims about a lot of things, quite possibly everything at some point, and no one can be an expert in and counter all those areas.

And where do you draw the line?

Can we sneer at Ken Ham and his Noah's Ark museum in Kentucky and call it out for the anti-intellectual freak show that it is? Can we condemn anti-homosexual bigotry based, supposedly, on some biblical verses, possibly bolstered with unsupported or discredited psychological opinion? Or, as a declared agnostic, is it only god-existence/creation of the universe stuff, stuff where we're getting close to the limits of science, where the problem exists?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 04, 2017, 01:21:08 PM
sorry easytiger most of that wasnt directed at you - i took the opportunity to vent my frustrations and it wasn't directly pointed at you even though it was in reply to you initially

its difficult to be a believer on this board - because it is my life I can't stand idly by when people throw it in the gutter and spout lies about it. I am very logical and rational and I'm a Catholic. Some people don't believe those can co-exist and angrily go on the offense in unrelated threads.

I did agree in this instance that those who don't want to pray should not be forced to. If thats the case here it is wrong but I don't want to speculate. I am not in the tryone team and dont know anyone who would speak to it who is.

I echo AZs comments. It is harder and harder to stick around. When it's good its great but most of the time it's saddening

I know you are coming from. I've a degree in Astrophysics and am a catholic who has faith. Sometimes I find it hard to marry the two myself never mind others doing it

Laws of the universe?

....or are there actaully none at all... what the feck is dark Matter? Is it in us also? Why does it only noticeable with Gravity at macro levels...What the feck is gravity anyway?
Considering Spacetime what do you think of the Block Universe/Eternalisim?
IF you could start a new thread titled Cosmoslogy might be a good place to hear your thoughts on all this stuff?

I wouldn't say the laws of the universe as such.
Dark matter is matter which is believed to be there due to the effect it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said it all scientists believe it exists
God Is a being which is believed to be there due to the effects it has but hasn't been observed yet. That's a very basic definition. Has to be said that the vast majority of all people living and dead believe God exists.
The point of this is?

Not sure of his meaning but I would say the gist of it is that science is merely another form of religion to many folk. I've loads of friends who believe 100% in the Big Bang theory but wouldn't have the brains to fry an egg. They've wholeheartedly dispensed with the thought of Christianity but believe in something that a load of complete strangers have told them instead. Fair enough if you've a degree in Astrophysics and understand the concepts of the Big Bang theory but there's loads of gonshites out there with only enough mental capacity to open a Facebook account who take the Big Bang theory at face value.

I understand enough about the BBT and the evidence that backs it up to believe it is the most likely theory for the formation of the universe. That did I also believe in God which is the point I was making. I find it hard to marry the two. Don't really want to discuss my faith on a forum like this though

But surely there is always room for a god?

Plenty of gaps in our knowledge and explanations, and with the big bang, specifically about what was going on right before it.

I understand the problem of these gaps diminishing over time, of course!

Room for God?????

The gaps in knowledge leaves a opportunity for alternatives but for something to fill a gap it needs evidence. It can't just be that God fills the gap by default whilst the gap continues to exist

That would be my opinion, yes.

Not everyone's though.

Personally, I've no problem with that. They're not the people trying to get evolution and plate tectonics and climate change and an ancient universe out of public education in favour of Adam and Eve happily petting vegetarian tyrannosaurs and the downplaying of the treatment of blacks and natives in US history.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on September 04, 2017, 02:36:40 PM
People all over Galway were saying the rosary

https://youtu.be/fCVOusytfHw
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Avondhu star on September 04, 2017, 06:18:36 PM
People all over Galway were saying the rosary

https://youtu.be/fCVOusytfHw
Meanwhile below in Waterford they were sacrificing goats. I suppose they must pay penance for electing Halligan
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 10:25:56 PM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 10:49:34 PM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?


Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 10:53:28 PM
Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

Sports psychology covers a multitude. Jury is out on a lot of it. The view of sensible people will be evidence lead. Stuff that doesn't work will be called out as horse shit.

The rosary will be subject to the same test. Stands to reason

No it wont because we are not machine but individuals so different things work for different people, usually when you put your faith in them. 
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 10:54:23 PM
I believe Harte is well within his rights to try whatever method he sees fit as long as he and is players see value in it, there should be no exclusion to anything legal.

Is that the deal here? If it's legal then anything goes? What about morals/ethics? Have they any role in life, sport or indeed religion?

I'm not saying that the rosary is unethical. I would contend it's a waste of time but not unethical

Im sure in your own head you head a point there...
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 10:57:07 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: trileacman on September 04, 2017, 11:05:42 PM
Or, as a declared agnostic, is it only god-existence/creation of the universe stuff, stuff where we're getting close to the limits of science, where the problem exists?

Pretty much.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 04, 2017, 11:11:06 PM
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

Do you avail of medical care? Do you fly? Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

No need to be so tetchy about this. There's a lot of questions there.

Quote
What's with the "load of strangers" and "face value"?

Please rephrase. I don't understand that question.

Quote
Do you expect everyone to invent everything themselves from first principles?

No I don't. I expect people to respect the beliefs of others and not sneer at them with a sense of glib superiority because they've seen a 10 minute video on youtube about the creation of the universe. The majority of people who believe in the big bang theory have only a passing knowledge of it and are oblivious to the numerous contradictions and inaccuracies it possesses. They believe it because it's a popular theory and people they perceive to be smarter than them espouse it. That's pretty much how the religions that they denigrate work.

Quote
Or must we only rely on people personally known to us, such as the priests teaching us about religion? (Although why is RELIGION not written off as the creation of total strangers?)

You see this is the atheism fervour I was referring to. Where did I say that religion is not to be written off as the creation of total strangers? Where did I say that people must rely on people personally known to us? If you can find examples of where I support "RELIGION" then point them out to me.

Quote
Do you avail of medical care?
Yes

Quote
Do you fly?
Yeah but it's shite.

Quote
Do you first research, from the ground up, everything and anything that affects any aspect of you life, or do you put your trust in the accumulation of human knowledge and expertise, realizing that expertize must, by necessity, be spread across a multitude of disciplines and the people working on them?

I trust others but there's a difference in trusting the knowledge of others and hijacking pieces of information to deride the beliefs of others. Beliefs instilled in them the same way as your beliefs where instilled in yourself.

Ok, so you don't like it when your friends sneer at the beliefs of others because your consider your friends' opinions as ill- considered as the opinions they're deriding.

As an aside, I would question why you are friends with such people if they anger you so?

But getting back, just who IS allowed to comment on religious belief then? Because religion makes claims about a lot of things, quite possibly everything at some point, and no one can be an expert in and counter all those areas.

And where do you draw the line?

Can we sneer at Ken Ham and his Noah's Ark museum in Kentucky and call it out for the anti-intellectual freak show that it is? Can we condemn anti-homosexual bigotry based, supposedly, on some biblical verses, possibly bolstered with unsupported or discredited psychological opinion? Or, as a declared agnostic, is it only god-existence/creation of the universe stuff, stuff where we're getting close to the limits of science, where the problem exists?

Persisting with the God of the gaps things is a nonsense J70 especially when it is started off life as a derogatory term for people of weak faith. Its what drove you to reject faith in the first place as a youngster so I guess if I felt the same way I'd be clinging to it too.
Faith comes from within that all I can say.
Why do you believe that only the empirical realm exists, in fact what is your rationale for believing that it exists at all? instinct?
Why do you belief in a solely material and naturalistic cosmos esp when massive holes have been blown in it by quantum mechanics and relativity? Not to mention the existence of our good selves.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 05, 2017, 08:22:26 AM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 05, 2017, 08:22:58 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 05, 2017, 08:24:30 AM
Why is it any more inappropriate than a sports psychology session? How is the comparison irrelevant?

Sports psychology covers a multitude. Jury is out on a lot of it. The view of sensible people will be evidence lead. Stuff that doesn't work will be called out as horse shit.

The rosary will be subject to the same test. Stands to reason

No it wont because we are not machine but individuals so different things work for different people, usually when you put your faith in them.

If there was independent empirical evidence that saying the rosary did not work would you put your faith in it?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 05, 2017, 08:26:27 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: Esmarelda on September 05, 2017, 10:27:49 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

However, having accepted that, what I don't get is how this acceptance strengthens the argument for the existence of a creator. If I accept that there may be a God for these reasons, where do I go from here? To say that "it comes from within" is a bit vague and wishy-washy for me, and I don't mean that disrespectfully. If that approach was used in any other walk of life I don't expect it would be taken too seriously.

Ultimately, as these discussions tend to always go, it seems that it boils down to blind faith (again that's not meant to be disrespectful). In my experience, those that believe usually cite important points in their life where they feel that God got involved somehow and their faith stemmed or grew from that point; it seems to confirm their faith. I'm not sure how it confirms their belief in a specific faith but that's another day's work.

I consider myself an atheist but maybe I'm actually agnostic as I don't rule the possibility of a creator. However, I suspect that if I had a life-changing event as mentioned above that I would rank the intervention of God at the bottom of the list of "what just happened". Easy for me to say of course.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: J70 on September 05, 2017, 12:09:56 PM

Persisting with the God of the gaps things is a nonsense J70 especially when it is started off life as a derogatory term for people of weak faith. Its what drove you to reject faith in the first place as a youngster so I guess if I felt the same way I'd be clinging to it too.
Faith comes from within that all I can say.
Why do you believe that only the empirical realm exists, in fact what is your rationale for believing that it exists at all? instinct?
Why do you belief in a solely material and naturalistic cosmos esp when massive holes have been blown in it by quantum mechanics and relativity? Not to mention the existence of our good selves.

If "faith" comes from within, I'm clearly lacking something then Joe, aren't I? As are many other people.

And the god of the gaps issue clearly addresses the fact that various cultures over the millennia have attributed cause and effect for a multitude of stuff to whatever god(s) they believed were pulling the strings. Why do we dismiss the beliefs of the ancient Romans or Egyptians or, more recently, pre-christian Native Americans, or various modern day faiths other than our own, but draw the line when it comes to our own particular religion? Why is this ok, but questioning the actual existence of god(s) is so problematic? Is there a different set of judgement/assessment rules required for the latter?

On the general perception/reality stuff, we've discussed that a few times before. I do not have the time to get sucked into a week-long back and forth with you rehashing the same stuff. Its already there on the board for anyone who is interested.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 05, 2017, 02:36:41 PM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 04:07:38 AM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here

Yes I have. They committed religious genocide in the name of an ideology that held religious belief as the superstitious. Atheism was an intrinsic part of 20th century communism.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 04:09:42 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 04:26:11 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 04:49:53 AM

Persisting with the God of the gaps things is a nonsense J70 especially when it is started off life as a derogatory term for people of weak faith. Its what drove you to reject faith in the first place as a youngster so I guess if I felt the same way I'd be clinging to it too.
Faith comes from within that all I can say.
Why do you believe that only the empirical realm exists, in fact what is your rationale for believing that it exists at all? instinct?
Why do you belief in a solely material and naturalistic cosmos esp when massive holes have been blown in it by quantum mechanics and relativity? Not to mention the existence of our good selves.

If "faith" comes from within, I'm clearly lacking something then Joe, aren't I? As are many other people.

And the god of the gaps issue clearly addresses the fact that various cultures over the millennia have attributed cause and effect for a multitude of stuff to whatever god(s) they believed were pulling the strings. Why do we dismiss the beliefs of the ancient Romans or Egyptians or, more recently, pre-christian Native Americans, or various modern day faiths other than our own, but draw the line when it comes to our own particular religion? Why is this ok, but questioning the actual existence of god(s) is so problematic? Is there a different set of judgement/assessment rules required for the latter?

On the general perception/reality stuff, we've discussed that a few times before. I do not have the time to get sucked into a week-long back and forth with you rehashing the same stuff. Its already there on the board for anyone who is interested.

I dont want to tell you anything about yourself J70 but I believe everyone has faith inside them.
When you say you for example what are you talking about? your body, your brain?, your millions cells, your genome, your 1000s miles of DNA strings, the trillions of atoms, your quarks. Most of which (certainly all of the later two) are not the same ones as occupied the space where you imagine you to have occupied last year or probably even last month.
All of which have come about and behave in a way entirely controlled by nature after somehow all being set in motion at the big bang.
Or do you believe there is an independent you that thinks for himself and makes his own decisions, has relationships, cares for things, or even experiences things.. well just like God science has found no evidence of these things existing whatsoever even tho ironically enough its existance completely on the last one.

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 06, 2017, 05:11:30 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: seafoid on September 06, 2017, 08:58:52 AM
Jane Nic Ruaidhrí known as Jane William Phetey, was among the Irish speakers interviewed by Éamonn Ó Tuathail for his work Sgéalta Mhuintir Luinigh, published in 1933, and she was still on the spot almost twenty years later when another flurry of interest in Tyrone Irish broke out. At this period she met and assisted Michael J Murphy, Heinrich Wagner, and Proinsias Ó Conluain, among others. James participated to a lesser extent in these activities. Ó Conluain, working for Radio Éireann, made further sound recordings of Jane in 1951. Both Murphy and Ó Conluain describe the less than enthusiastic welcome they received from the Bodach, dressed up as the returned American sister, who did not see any merit in bothering with the Irish language. Stockman and Wagner described Jane herself as "a fluent speaker with a rich vocabulary. She never travelled except on one trip to Belfast where she was recorded by Ó Tuathail."

Years later Mickey Harte was trying to motivate the Tyrone footballers to beat the Harlem globetrotters aka the Dublin footballers. Mickey ransacked the local culture to find an appropriate meme around to which to build a team spirit .
Tyrone prayed the Rosary every night for 6 months.

The Rosary had no chance. Dublin had the match won after 15 minutes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Galway hurlers have a meme for 10 minutes into the second half after the Cailleach does the beat switch

Scaoil amach an bobailin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FkApmj8K1M
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 08:18:50 AM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here

Yes I have. They committed religious genocide in the name of an ideology that held religious belief as the superstitious. Atheism was an intrinsic part of 20th century communism.

There is little to be said in defence of Stalin, Mao etc. It's fairly clear that Stalin was an atheist (though well schooled in religion) but there is a strong argument that the only thing he cared about in terms of religion was destroying any power structure that might exist to rival or challenge his own.

After all he did very little to work out what people actually believed before persecuting them.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 08:20:06 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 08:21:30 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 08:34:46 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 07, 2017, 08:46:44 PM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here

Yes I have. They committed religious genocide in the name of an ideology that held religious belief as the superstitious. Atheism was an intrinsic part of 20th century communism.

There is little to be said in defence of Stalin, Mao etc. It's fairly clear that Stalin was an atheist (though well schooled in religion) but there is a strong argument that the only thing he cared about in terms of religion was destroying any power structure that might exist to rival or challenge his own.

After all he did very little to work out what people actually believed before persecuting them.

Despite it being part of their ideologies that religion was a superstitious distraction that needed to be eradicated?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 07, 2017, 08:56:13 PM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 07, 2017, 08:59:32 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 07, 2017, 09:01:13 PM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in equality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 10:14:51 PM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here

Yes I have. They committed religious genocide in the name of an ideology that held religious belief as the superstitious. Atheism was an intrinsic part of 20th century communism.

There is little to be said in defence of Stalin, Mao etc. It's fairly clear that Stalin was an atheist (though well schooled in religion) but there is a strong argument that the only thing he cared about in terms of religion was destroying any power structure that might exist to rival or challenge his own.

After all he did very little to work out what people actually believed before persecuting them.

Despite it being part of their ideologies that religion was a superstitious distraction that needed to be eradicated?

There was a fair amount in their supposed ideologies that they didn't actually believe.

On religion itself is there any evidence that they gave a shit about the private beliefs of anybody who was not publicly aligned with a rival power structure?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 10:21:03 PM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.

Who are you even arguing with here?

You are the one making the claims. You claim that saying the rosary would increase the likelihood of a player's head being in the right place, more likely to maximise performance and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. You discribe this a safe assumption. Your words. Your claims. You have been asked repeatedly for supporting evidence. It would be fair to describe your failure to provide any evidence as complete. So what evidence have you got?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 10:23:49 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.

Regrettably you are going to have to deal with my level of stupidity. You see I am asking you if you believe in Thor. On my level the answer to that is going to be yes you do believe in Thor or no you don't believe in Thor. So which is it?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 07, 2017, 10:30:02 PM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in equality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

The French and the Dutch seem to take some early steps to minimise the damage. Less human lives taken. Less human lives destroyed. Maybe you are going to argue that that is unimportant and we shouldn't care. Maybe you are going to argue that spiritualists have bigger things to worry about.

The rest of your drivel post is argument for arguments sake. Would you argue that discrimination against you on grounds of gender, race or consensual sexual orientation could represent progress? I think not.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 08, 2017, 03:57:27 AM
Catholicism is a religious belief system, it didn't murder anyone, and murder is the no.1 wrong within it. People who identify as Catholic of course did murder but then so did atheists.

Atheists certainly have murdered. But have any done so in the name of atheism?

Can the same be said of Christianity and its various sects?

And is Christianity not supposed to provide some moral guidance?

More or less Stalin and esp Mao were hell bend on squashing religious belief thorugh genocide, you could probably throw Pol Pot into that one too.
You seem to have no bother embracing Britishness into your life despite everything that has been done in the name of Britain.

You are not even contending that these people were atheists who murdered in the name of atheism. You have offered no argument here

Yes I have. They committed religious genocide in the name of an ideology that held religious belief as the superstitious. Atheism was an intrinsic part of 20th century communism.

There is little to be said in defence of Stalin, Mao etc. It's fairly clear that Stalin was an atheist (though well schooled in religion) but there is a strong argument that the only thing he cared about in terms of religion was destroying any power structure that might exist to rival or challenge his own.

After all he did very little to work out what people actually believed before persecuting them.

Despite it being part of their ideologies that religion was a superstitious distraction that needed to be eradicated?

There was a fair amount in their supposed ideologies that they didn't actually believe.

On religion itself is there any evidence that they gave a shit about the private beliefs of anybody who was not publicly aligned with a rival power structure?

What there is a fair amount of evidence of is...is that they did believe a fair bit of their ideologies with atheism as a cornerstone and they turned this into action by murdering those who didn't align with it.

Would genocide of religion
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 08, 2017, 04:07:36 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.

Who are you even arguing with here?

You are the one making the claims. You claim that saying the rosary would increase the likelihood of a player's head being in the right place, more likely to maximise performance and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. You discribe this a safe assumption. Your words. Your claims. You have been asked repeatedly for supporting evidence. It would be fair to describe your failure to provide any evidence as complete. So what evidence have you got?

The evidence is his results as a manager as I have already pointed out.
I said it was safe assumption, that' s called induction and its backed up by the evidence of his results as a manager.
Now I hate to break it to you but science uses a similar method to build paradigms and theories.

You started looking about direct causality which is impossible to pin down when you enter into determining the cause of human behavior now even assuming materialism and determinism (which you have alluded you adhere to) it would be subject to the most extreme chaos theory as there are far too many factors with differing levels of influence to determine any cause and affect. 
In much the same as our friend the Hurricane yesterday was skirting Miami and now appears to be directly in its cross hairs, because there are too many factors to predict accurately.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 08, 2017, 04:14:04 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.

Regrettably you are going to have to deal with my level of stupidity. You see I am asking you if you believe in Thor. On my level the answer to that is going to be yes you do believe in Thor or no you don't believe in Thor. So which is it?

Im saying that their understanding of what God is was different, sure my own is refining all the time, its a lot different now than it was when I was a child. Not dissimilar to how my understanding of scientific things changes.
Also you should also look up the either or fallacy, attempting to corral me into the answer you want to hear simply will not work
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 08, 2017, 04:37:08 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in inequality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

The French and the Dutch seem to take some early steps to minimise the damage. Less human lives taken. Less human lives destroyed. Maybe you are going to argue that that is unimportant and we shouldn't care. Maybe you are going to argue that spiritualists have bigger things to worry about.

The rest of your drivel post is argument for arguments sake. Would you argue that discrimination against you on grounds of gender, race or consensual sexual orientation could represent progress? I think not.

Apologies Typo in bold up there

No Im not saying you shouldn't care. I not opposing  your position I am asking what is the reason for it, is there evidence to support it?

And again Im not saying those things arent progress I am asking why you think they are progress? Whats the evidence?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 12, 2017, 07:18:25 PM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.

Who are you even arguing with here?

You are the one making the claims. You claim that saying the rosary would increase the likelihood of a player's head being in the right place, more likely to maximise performance and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. You discribe this a safe assumption. Your words. Your claims. You have been asked repeatedly for supporting evidence. It would be fair to describe your failure to provide any evidence as complete. So what evidence have you got?

The evidence is his results as a manager as I have already pointed out.
I said it was safe assumption, that' s called induction and its backed up by the evidence of his results as a manager.
Now I hate to break it to you but science uses a similar method to build paradigms and theories.

You started looking about direct causality which is impossible to pin down when you enter into determining the cause of human behavior now even assuming materialism and determinism (which you have alluded you adhere to) it would be subject to the most extreme chaos theory as there are far too many factors with differing levels of influence to determine any cause and affect. 
In much the same as our friend the Hurricane yesterday was skirting Miami and now appears to be directly in its cross hairs, because there are too many factors to predict accurately.

Which respected scientist are you talking about? The one that takes outputs that are the result of diverse inputs and uses that as evidence of the impact of a single input?

Let me know who they are and I will look them up.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 12, 2017, 07:20:31 PM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.

Regrettably you are going to have to deal with my level of stupidity. You see I am asking you if you believe in Thor. On my level the answer to that is going to be yes you do believe in Thor or no you don't believe in Thor. So which is it?

Im saying that their understanding of what God is was different, sure my own is refining all the time, its a lot different now than it was when I was a child. Not dissimilar to how my understanding of scientific things changes.
Also you should also look up the either or fallacy, attempting to corral me into the answer you want to hear simply will not work

Who is "their"? I'm not talking about anybody else's beliefs. It's yours that is being debated. Do you believe in Thor? If not, why not?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 12, 2017, 07:24:41 PM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in inequality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

The French and the Dutch seem to take some early steps to minimise the damage. Less human lives taken. Less human lives destroyed. Maybe you are going to argue that that is unimportant and we shouldn't care. Maybe you are going to argue that spiritualists have bigger things to worry about.

The rest of your drivel post is argument for arguments sake. Would you argue that discrimination against you on grounds of gender, race or consensual sexual orientation could represent progress? I think not.

Apologies Typo in bold up there

No Im not saying you shouldn't care. I not opposing  your position I am asking what is the reason for it, is there evidence to support it?

And again Im not saying those things arent progress I am asking why you think they are progress? Whats the evidence?

Evidence of inequality is fairly basic stuff. Evidence of the impact of inequality is also fairly basic. Do you wanted it listed?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 13, 2017, 03:56:34 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.

Who are you even arguing with here?

You are the one making the claims. You claim that saying the rosary would increase the likelihood of a player's head being in the right place, more likely to maximise performance and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. You discribe this a safe assumption. Your words. Your claims. You have been asked repeatedly for supporting evidence. It would be fair to describe your failure to provide any evidence as complete. So what evidence have you got?

The evidence is his results as a manager as I have already pointed out.
I said it was safe assumption, that' s called induction and its backed up by the evidence of his results as a manager.
Now I hate to break it to you but science uses a similar method to build paradigms and theories.

You started looking about direct causality which is impossible to pin down when you enter into determining the cause of human behavior now even assuming materialism and determinism (which you have alluded you adhere to) it would be subject to the most extreme chaos theory as there are far too many factors with differing levels of influence to determine any cause and affect. 
In much the same as our friend the Hurricane yesterday was skirting Miami and now appears to be directly in its cross hairs, because there are too many factors to predict accurately.

Which respected scientist are you talking about? The one that takes outputs that are the result of diverse inputs and uses that as evidence of the impact of a single input?

Let me know who they are and I will look them up.

Good glad we agree at last.

Check out how Einstein's deductive path from relativity to spacetime
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 13, 2017, 04:02:26 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.

Regrettably you are going to have to deal with my level of stupidity. You see I am asking you if you believe in Thor. On my level the answer to that is going to be yes you do believe in Thor or no you don't believe in Thor. So which is it?

Im saying that their understanding of what God is was different, sure my own is refining all the time, its a lot different now than it was when I was a child. Not dissimilar to how my understanding of scientific things changes.
Also you should also look up the either or fallacy, attempting to corral me into the answer you want to hear simply will not work

Who is "their"? I'm not talking about anybody else's beliefs. It's yours that is being debated. Do you believe in Thor? If not, why not?

"Their" would be followers of Thor or whoever, its explained above fairly explicitly above. Im sorry that it didn't include the answer you wanted but to fall for such a basic fallacy would be a crime against reason.
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: omaghjoe on September 13, 2017, 04:17:05 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in inequality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

The French and the Dutch seem to take some early steps to minimise the damage. Less human lives taken. Less human lives destroyed. Maybe you are going to argue that that is unimportant and we shouldn't care. Maybe you are going to argue that spiritualists have bigger things to worry about.

The rest of your drivel post is argument for arguments sake. Would you argue that discrimination against you on grounds of gender, race or consensual sexual orientation could represent progress? I think not.

Apologies Typo in bold up there

No Im not saying you shouldn't care. I not opposing  your position I am asking what is the reason for it, is there evidence to support it?

And again Im not saying those things arent progress I am asking why you think they are progress? Whats the evidence?

Evidence of inequality is fairly basic stuff. Evidence of the impact of inequality is also fairly basic. Do you wanted it listed?

A quick look at the history of anthropology can give us many pros and cons to perceived inequality in terms of the growth of a civilization. But is growth progress? If so why? If not why?and more importantly why do you care?
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 15, 2017, 09:51:07 AM

Doing so would more likely have a player who's head is in the right place, more likely to get maximum performance for the player and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. It a save assumption

Evidence?




So no evidence then?

A manager's methods are judged on his results what sort of evidence are you looking for?

Some actual causal link between the individual method and the outcome


Has there been a causal link established between psychology/emotions and neurology - human action
I think I read before that it had actually been proved there is no link, so we will also be doing away team talks, team building, motivation etc as there is no causal evidence? Come to think of it is there causal link between any training and results especially in a team skill sport like football?

I'll hardly be starting the bines agin due to a lack of casual link with lung cancer even tho I love them.

Who are you even arguing with here?

You are the one making the claims. You claim that saying the rosary would increase the likelihood of a player's head being in the right place, more likely to maximise performance and more likely to get maximum performance for the team. You discribe this a safe assumption. Your words. Your claims. You have been asked repeatedly for supporting evidence. It would be fair to describe your failure to provide any evidence as complete. So what evidence have you got?

The evidence is his results as a manager as I have already pointed out.
I said it was safe assumption, that' s called induction and its backed up by the evidence of his results as a manager.
Now I hate to break it to you but science uses a similar method to build paradigms and theories.

You started looking about direct causality which is impossible to pin down when you enter into determining the cause of human behavior now even assuming materialism and determinism (which you have alluded you adhere to) it would be subject to the most extreme chaos theory as there are far too many factors with differing levels of influence to determine any cause and affect. 
In much the same as our friend the Hurricane yesterday was skirting Miami and now appears to be directly in its cross hairs, because there are too many factors to predict accurately.

Which respected scientist are you talking about? The one that takes outputs that are the result of diverse inputs and uses that as evidence of the impact of a single input?

Let me know who they are and I will look them up.

Good glad we agree at last.

Check out how Einstein's deductive path from relativity to spacetime

I'm not a scientist so my view here might be influenced in whole or in part by my relative ignorance but your example looks like a bad one.

Its ok for a scientist to make assumptions in postulating a theory. Its only a theory. Its then out there as a contribution that acknowledges its assumptions and the scientific community of the time can test and explore and use subsequent evidence to prove, refine or disprove the theory.

That's not the same as ignoring all factors bar one and claiming this to be proof
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 15, 2017, 09:54:22 AM
As an aside I'm pretty agnostic but I've to laugh at the fervour in which vast swathes of pseudo-intellectuals imbrace atheism and science with a feeling of smug superiority over religious folk. It's evident daily on this board.

Religious attempts to rationalise the universe are just as valid your scientific attempts to do the same. 600 years ago the smartest people knew as an undeniable fact that the earth was the centre of the solar system and probably sneered at those with more antiquated notions. In 100 or 200 years there'll be another slew of pseudo-intellectuals who'll laugh at the ideas upon which many atheists today hang their existence on.

Who is moving knowledge on - science or religion?

Everyone on here is an atheist. Omaghjoe, Iceman and Fearon included
::) ::) ::)
Everyone on here is a person of faith otherwise you'd see the pointless futility of your own life

So do you believe in Thor etc? If not, why not?

Is my life futile? In what way does God the creator or god the overseer make my life not futile?

As I've mentioned before religion is a reflection of faith.

My retort was rhetorical and tongue in cheek but anyway..
Probably not futile as you place faith in your life in some sort of nonphysical entity relationships, emotions, even consciousness etc. There is no evidence that these things exist according to science but maybe you live your life to keep quarks whizzing and popping in and out of existence even tho they have only been known about for the last 50 years or so?

I missed the bit about whether you belief in Thor etc and if not, why not?

I wouldn't say that their inner faith is wrong as such either, it was just reflected outwardly in a different way. I must have said that 100 times on here, but the same people keep asking me that same question.

Regrettably you are going to have to deal with my level of stupidity. You see I am asking you if you believe in Thor. On my level the answer to that is going to be yes you do believe in Thor or no you don't believe in Thor. So which is it?

Im saying that their understanding of what God is was different, sure my own is refining all the time, its a lot different now than it was when I was a child. Not dissimilar to how my understanding of scientific things changes.
Also you should also look up the either or fallacy, attempting to corral me into the answer you want to hear simply will not work

Who is "their"? I'm not talking about anybody else's beliefs. It's yours that is being debated. Do you believe in Thor? If not, why not?

"Their" would be followers of Thor or whoever, its explained above fairly explicitly above. Im sorry that it didn't include the answer you wanted but to fall for such a basic fallacy would be a crime against reason.

The fact remains that you either a) do believe in Thor or b) don't believe in Thor. Either way you don't seem to be able to admit to it. There is no fallacy here. Just someone refusing to honestly engage in a debate and hiding behind a pretence
Title: Re: Saying the rosary doesn't work. Fact
Post by: LCohen on September 15, 2017, 09:56:42 AM
I completely get omaghjoe's view that everything in the universe shouldn't necessarily be viewed empirically. That's fine. The existence of God needn't necessarily be evidence-based.

So much of what was "explained" by gods has subsequently been proved empirically to have a rational scientific explanation. We should at the very least be deeply suspicious of any remaining matters that people attempt to "explain" by gods

The issue that I have with spiritualists is not that they believe, or that this belief is not rationally based or indeed that they choose to order their lives around these beliefs. The fact that all that guff originates within them and is not evidence based is amusing rather than harmful. The issue is when it crosses the line and becomes harmful. When these spiritual stirrings within in them manifest into declarations of how others should order their lives and matters of public policy then they have the habit of being harmful. There is then the sense of entitlement that faith, typically their personal faith should be afforded some special protections that other opinions should not. That is harmful to society as it stifles progress
To prove anything empirically you'd have to prove empirism logically empirism, deductive reasoning, and causality are flawed as a complete view of the cosmos.

Throughout history religion and faith have been the main driver of society in fact there is alot of evidence that would suggest its the reason civilisation began. So I'm wondering how they could stifle its progress.
But anyway if you can define exactly what progress in a society is so all we know what we're talking about and while your at it explain why you conform to a society or are interested in it as neither of those two things don't really exist scientifically.

I said that affording religious faith special protection special faith stifles progress. Look at the news this morning about the Caribbean storms. Was it faith in god and his mysterious ways that told us where that storm was and is headed? Will prayers to him influence its path or ferocity? Thankfully some people try to advance knowledge of the world to progress our lot.

We have issues of equality today. Some are standing in the way of progress without seemingly any need to produce evidence. They simply state that they believe something is wrong.

I can see that equality of gender, race and consensual sexual orientation would be progress. Maybe you cannot? I can see that those who simply object to this progress, claim that there is no evidential burden on them to substantiate their claims and demand what we give them this special exemption out of respect to their faith are blocking progress.

Why do you care where the storm is headed?
Why is equality for these things progress? How will it advance society? What evidence do you have to back this up? Historically Civilisations have thrived in inequality. Not to mention that human gravitate away from such societies as they also seek opportunity.

The French and the Dutch seem to take some early steps to minimise the damage. Less human lives taken. Less human lives destroyed. Maybe you are going to argue that that is unimportant and we shouldn't care. Maybe you are going to argue that spiritualists have bigger things to worry about.

The rest of your drivel post is argument for arguments sake. Would you argue that discrimination against you on grounds of gender, race or consensual sexual orientation could represent progress? I think not.

Apologies Typo in bold up there

No Im not saying you shouldn't care. I not opposing  your position I am asking what is the reason for it, is there evidence to support it?

And again Im not saying those things arent progress I am asking why you think they are progress? Whats the evidence?

Evidence of inequality is fairly basic stuff. Evidence of the impact of inequality is also fairly basic. Do you wanted it listed?

A quick look at the history of anthropology can give us many pros and cons to perceived inequality in terms of the growth of a civilization. But is growth progress? If so why? If not why?and more importantly why do you care?

Improving the lot of people is progress.

I care because I'm human and our brains have evolved to think that way