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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

Title: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
I honestly think it's time to give this another thought.  The reality is that the All-Ireland will probably be won by one of four teams.  For the rest of us it's just a matter of how far we can go.  It's not if but when we will be beaten.  I have to admit I was no big fan of the Tommy Murphy cup but I'm beginning to think that once division 3 and 4 teams are beaten, (before a certain date) they should play in a b championship with the winners and runners up rejoining the championship at the quarter final stages (or the runner up joining one stage earlier).  It's time for the combine harvesters to be racing against tractors or JCB's.
I know a lot of the managers are not a big fan of this but I think in time they might warm to it.  The chance to be competitive and win something could eventually swing the pendelum.
I put up a poll to see what the appetite is.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on June 26, 2017, 12:58:10 PM
I look at the complete mess that the Gaa has made of the tiered hurling championship and that makes me have to say no.
Look at the Christy Ring final this year.  The hurling secondary tier competition.
Was not covered live on any of the national TV stations.
Vey little coverage in the media.
And all finished up by the end of June.
A secondary football competition would be given lip service for a year or two and then would slowly be let fade away into insignificance.  That's what has happened time and time again with "b" championships. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 01:02:06 PM
RTE interviewed 10 'lower tier' managers about it, and only the Longford manager seemed strongly in favour of a B championship. The rest either didn't want it at all, or wanted it as a 'losers competition' for teams beaten early in the championship.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 26, 2017, 01:06:16 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Tubberman on June 26, 2017, 01:07:35 PM
If the secondary competition winner was awarded a 3rd or 4th round qualifier spot, I think there may be more of an appetite for it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 02:02:56 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:05:12 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on June 26, 2017, 02:09:55 PM
More to a cup competition than who can win it. The underdog stories like Down winning against the odds v Monaghan last Saturday or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on June 26, 2017, 02:11:48 PM
And I actually think this years championship has been decent so far. A couple of horror shows, but in general decent games and close and exciting.

Fair point but it does not hide the gap (at the moment) between the top 12 and the rest.
Would the winners and runners up of  "B" having a play in game to the Q/finals not be a better option. At least the teams in question would have three or four wins under their belt at that stage, rather than the one and done the majority of them face right now.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:13:33 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 26, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
I think a better way of looking a t it would be to have staged entry into the one competition depending on league standings.

so div 3& 4 enter at round 1, the winners play the div 2 teams in round 2, the winners of that play the div 1 teams in round 3 .

This would be similar to the way the FA cup is structured with the Premier league teams coming in at the 3rd round stage.

This would give every county in Ireland the opportunity to play in the Sam Maguire competition, and return us to the proper knockout format we used to have.

The main stumbling block will be the resistance to separate the all Ireland from the provincial competitions.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on June 26, 2017, 02:22:55 PM
I just feel a lot of the noise (not including people on here who have genuine long held beliefs about structures) about the Championship and tiers etc, is being made by pundits and media people who would much prefer to fill columns or minutes with chat about Kerry, Dublin, Tyrone, Mayo and whoever else happens to be riding the crest of a wave at that time. They just do not want to be talking about Sligo, Offaly, Westmeath, Carlow, Laois or anyone else even in the middle tier, never mind Waterford, Leitrim and London. At this moment in time, the grumbling is at a crescendo because they have to preview/review a game like last Sunday, and also qualifiers involving teams that they don't really care about.

Maybe I'm an auld cynic, but I think that if a tiered competition came in, the games would get the same coverage as the hurling tiered competitions do.

I was at the offaly V Cavan game last night and came away feeling bad for offaly . its very hard to build a  system with only a few games a years they have several excellent players but who knows how many of them will be there next summer and maybe even a new manager so they have no time to build they could definitely benefit from a secondary competition esp with a round robin element  . A not so super 8 if you like.
one incentive id like to see is a way back into the A system to keep every one interested.

Im sure TG4 would love to cover it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 26, 2017, 02:31:47 PM
There is little appetite for a B or C competition despite all of the logic in favour of it.  Counties want to have a go every year.

A better approach would be to seed the competition according to league position and give the lower division teams a chance to compete with each other and in their provinces before the higher divisions joins the competition.  The bottom 16 could be reduced to 4 teams. Teams would still get 2 meaningful knockout games as present.

This gives a knockout competition to lower division teams with the chance of those surviving the next rounds a chance to giant kill.  It would remove the qualifiers and have the provincial competitions as secondary to the AI competition with only winers making it through to a final 8 knockout competition.

Unfortunately, this will never fly with those wanting to milk the spectators with the super 8 games which show who the GAA management are really interested in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 02:34:24 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 26, 2017, 02:37:01 PM
Dublin and Kerry are the two teams who year after year waltz through their province virtually unchallenged.

Mayo looked like they were dominating Connacht for a while there but Galway and maybe Roscommon have ended that run again.
Donegal and Monaghan were controlling Ulster for a good while there but would have thought Down and Tyrone would contest this year's final.

Leinster is just awful to watch every year when the Dubs play anyone.
Maybe if the top 4 teams in Div 1 go through to the quarterfinals and opt out of their province it would make winning your province a lot more possible for many counties.

Leinster is actually decent to watch when the Dubs aren't playing :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 03:08:17 PM
I agree completely with AZ's penultimate post. The topic is primarily media-driven.

Having said that, I think the best chance of a change being made is to provide a route from any second or third division championship back into the race for the All-Ireland.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 26, 2017, 03:13:40 PM
I realise that many of the managers didn't actually state they wanted a B championship but the sentiment amongst many of them that there wasn't enough games.

Entry to round 4 qualifier or even a quarter final place for winners of such a competition should satisfy the needs of all counties taking part.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 03:27:12 PM
That's what I said AZ. People are saying we need a 2 or 3 tier championship but it's usually just games involving Kerry and Dublin in their provinces that are completely one sided. Mayo rarely hammer anyone in Connacht though Tyrone have wiped the floor with Derry and Donegal so far in Ulster.

Remove those teams from the provincials and all of a sudden it's quite interesting again.
Kildare, W-Meath or Meath would be rejuvenated if they won Leinster and went into the 1/4 finals with that win under their belt. Kildare in 2010 was the last time a Leinster team got to the semis besides the Dubs.

In the last 6 years Dublin and Mayo have been in the semis every year with Kerry missing out one year in 2012.
Tyrone and Donegal have usually been the 4th team though Tipperary took that prize last year.

2016 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tipp
2015 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2014 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2013 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Tyrone
2012 Cork,  Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
2011 Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: oneflewoverthecuckoonest on June 26, 2017, 04:00:39 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

if the panel of 25-30, that makes up each intercounty squad, existed in isolation to solely play for the county, then yes some sort of second or third tier competition, after an initial provincial defeat, may serve a purpose to fill the remainder of their summer. But these panellists are not the property of the intercounty scene, they also have their clubs to serve. Many clubs throughout the land and their inter county players, would probably place more masse in concentrating on winning the local club championship than seeing these players on county duty at 2nd or 3rd tier level deep into july or august, playing in games attracting poor attendances and given lip service by the media, with possibly 1 or 2 minutes of highlights(if any on RTE).

The only way for the weak to build is through a decent league campaign and then look forward to championship scalp, the dream of the scalp fosters the reason for  the hard work during the winter months.....take away the dream and the application is likely to be diluted.

for example, Antrim are rated the poorest outfit in Ulster. Once every ten years or so, they do pop up and beat a perceived superior rival in the Ulster championship. I am sure the vast majority associated with Antrim would prefer the crack at a shock in ulster each year in preference to a first round 3rd tier game against say Waterford in front of 200 people in Dungarvan.


Clubs are entitled to their players from July onwards, and the GAA was set up in an original way whereby most counties were finished the intercounty scene by the end of July bar the all Ireland semi finalists.  Creating 2nd and 3rd tier levels will make a dogs ear of the club championship scene in many counties.

straight knockout was and remains the best option for intercounty GAA....it is not returning because Croke Park now needs to maximise gate receipts to pay for a raft of full time officials(including secretaries in counties)..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness.

in truth, introducing 2nd and 3rd tier competitions will sound a death knell to the competitiveness of many counties, as player interest and supporter interest in the system will gradually erode.

we have had the lower tier hurling competitions for a number of years, and not one of the minnows have made any shape of getting closer to the elite 8/9....in fact in truth, from an original competitive 12 or so, the likes of Offaly, Antrim and Laois are falling further away each season from the top 8/9, and nothing outside the top 9 will be competitive in that top bracket for the foreseeable future.

creating tiers 2 and 3 for football is the GAAs apartheid.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: PAULD123 on June 26, 2017, 04:07:51 PM
..........so all decisions on championship formats forthwith will be determined with finances in mind rather than competitiveness......

Enthusiasts on these forums try to solve sporting issues. The Sporting administrators are trying to solve financial issues.

Sad but all too true
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:11:55 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2017, 04:34:34 PM
I share your concerns around media coverage and that is something the gaa should address by ensuring games get broadcast.  The chance to re-enter the championship might reduce the lip service factor.  Fermanagh would have a good shot at winning a div3/4 competition next year.  I know I'd rather watch sligo v Fermanagh than Dublin v westmeath

Re-entering the championship in the present year is complete nonsense.

The idea that weak counties necessarily have great club championships because their county teams are out early is also a bit suspect, is the Carlow club championship better than that of Dublin or Kerry?

And as for straight knockout, the extra games  not only serve to raise money but serve to raise the profile of the GAA which brings in many of the people who are in these clubs.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Taylor on June 26, 2017, 04:41:22 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.

If it was done properly there is no reason why it wouldnt succeed on a National level.

Main issue would been apathy towards anything other than the big one. Marketing would be key here in making it attractive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 26, 2017, 04:50:17 PM
the main issue here is the Dubs.
and the imbalance of them getting most games in Croke Park.

there isn't as big a gap between all the other counties playing in provinical venues
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 04:54:28 PM
Junior, Intermediate &Senior c'ships work really well in counties.


Exactly and that's my favourite with promition/relegation as in Club championships across the Country.
I would still retain the Provincials with all in and then 3 AI Championships.
Make the TV deal so that for every Senior game the TV company would have to do an Inter and Junior game too.

A 2 tier thingy will do nothing for the 6 or 8 weakest teams and if it's not part of a promotion relegation structure then the B is only a tournament for a shiny cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 04:55:52 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 04:59:42 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:08:33 PM
Open draw. 32 teams. End of story. Close the thread.

Would be certainly worth a try for a 3 year period.
It does my nut in watching Dublin and Kerry play challenge games up until the semifinal stage most years.
I'd nearly rather lose an Ulster final just to meet them in the quarters. Maybe we will.

Yup. But a good draw for a Fermanagh, Carlow, Sligo etc would do wonders for football in those counties. A run to a semi would do more in a season than years in a B competition.

Open draw, first round 2 legs. Everyone gets a home game. And everyone plays for Sam.
Copyright @ BennyCake
So Dublin get Wicklow and beat them by 30 points in each leg. I'd say Wicklow would be happier with one hammering and a chance at a more favourable draw in the back door.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 26, 2017, 05:11:35 PM
No matter who Dublin get unless another top 3 team, they will most likely win by 20+ points.
Dublin away to Donegal, Monaghan or Tyrone would be an exciting game.
I don't agree two leg though. Straight knockout 1 game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:16:33 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:17:46 PM
2 legs first round only. From the last 16, it's knock out.

Big guns need a shake up. Kerry Dublin need to gear up for a battle in June like the rest of us.
What does two legs achieve though?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:26:45 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blue Island on June 26, 2017, 05:28:17 PM
This old argument comes up every year and I think it is media driven. This is a matter solely for those Counties who are struggling and for no one else. I would imagine they would have no truck with some form of B or C tier competition. There would be zero interest and one only has to look at the second tier hurling competitions to see how that would end up.

Even if Croke Park did throw a load of money and resources at it (unlikely), they can't force RTE, the print media to follow suit and give the games the attention they might deserve.

The real issue is the amateur ethos of our games and the primary rule that you play for the County you were born in. If we had a professional game where you could transfer between Counties, it might be reasonable to have a two, or three tier system, where better/more ambitious players could transfer.  Not that I am advocating that.

It is not justified to say to players in Leitrim or Antrim, you are now playing in a secondary competition by dint of your birth and you will suck it up.

I would draw a comparison with nations qualifying for the Euros and the World cup. Yes, the tournament itself is for qualifiers only, akin to the All Ireland quarter finals, but every nation starts with the same chance.  France will play San Marino etc, because there is an acceptance that every nation is sovereign and treated with equal status and an acknowledgement that players can only play for the Country they were born it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 05:30:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 05:34:27 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:12:32 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on June 26, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
If you favour a second tier, you'd have to have Down in it. Longford beat them in the qualifiers this weekend last year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 26, 2017, 06:30:58 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

Kerry Kildare, 21 points win. Dublin Monaghan 22 points win. And that's with teams in same division. There will always be dead rubbers. With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. Outside the top 4, there's a big drop out because players are thinking, what's the point?
They're not dead rubbers. Dead rubbers, as I understand them, are games that don't matter for whatever reason. If the first leg is a 20 point victory then I think you could call the second leg a dead rubber. Multiply that by about four or five ties (likely).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 26, 2017, 06:32:07 PM
Gives each team a home match and a chance to host a big gun
Fair enough, but with all the shouts of "dead rubber" aimed at the Super 8 I'm surprised you didn't think of that before you copyrighted the idea :)

With an open draw there's more chance of lots of teams progressing. O

Eh?
16 GONE after Round 1
24 GONE after Round 2.

Well, Carlow could draw Leitrim then Antrim and get to a QF. Mayo could face Dublin, winners meeting Kerry. So you could have Carlow in a QF, with Dublin and Kerry gone.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 06:35:59 PM
I could win the lotto.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Stall the Bailer on June 26, 2017, 11:32:15 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 26, 2017, 11:38:19 PM
in all gaa sports, at the end of a championship, there will be only one winner. to date in intercounty since the introduction of the backdoor, we have not had one "new" winner in either hurling or football, and the possibility of such an event arising weakens with each passing year.

Armagh 02 Tyrone 03. Both after introduction of the back door
Previous new winners Derry 93, Donegal 92, Offaly 71,Down 61. Meath 49.
Not much sign of any new County making a breakthrough in the next 5 or 6 years at least.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:32:38 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:02:14 AM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:04:59 AM
A second tier would give the GAA an excuse to hide away the useless teams just like they hide them away during the league.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Zulu on June 27, 2017, 01:06:55 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 27, 2017, 05:58:41 AM
After I investigated the Kerry Senior Championship Ive become a great fan, I genuinally think its the reason that they are so sucessful as players from small clubs have a chance to play on an equal footing with the big clubs and it also means the standard of the championship is higher

Anyway could we apply this model to the SFC??

I was thinkin  have the 2nd Tier championship minus the top 8 or 10 and replace the lower leagues with that championship. Obiviously it would still be some sorta league format as losing R1 teams end up with 1 game
Then have the provincials as usual.
Then pool the 2nd Tier teams into regional sides to give them a crack at the SFC agin the top teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on June 27, 2017, 06:46:24 AM
I've a real bee in my bonnet when it comes to people saying things like how "it would need to be marketed properly..."

All across Ireland and the world there are sports that don't get bums on seats, and they all perceive that a lack of marketing is the issue. League of Ireland? Check. Ladies football? Check. Christy Ring? Check.

It's all very well to say that two days ago, there was a gap there, and that RTE could have showed a lower tier game. But what about the previous week? Would the armchair pundits, up to and including a lot of people on here, been happy that either Donegal vs Tyrone or Cork vs Waterford went untelevised so that a game like the Christy Ring final could be shown instead?

Christ the same Joe Brolly thinks it's a disgrace that there are GAA games on Sky, even though there's 40-odd games on terrestrial TV over the summer now. But think about it. Is it a real surprise that TV pundits, who depend on TV punditry for gigs, want a system where there are more big games between the big counties, so more games that "need" to be televised, and thus more punditry gigs on the go?


Moreover, you don't have to go far in Kerry or Dublin to find an ex-player who thinks a B championship is the answer. However I'll start to believe that it's the way to go when a player who would be playing in it comes out and says that he'd have an extra spring in his step if they went that road. If a lad I know to be a solid, committed player who loves his county - I'll give the example of Brian Darby for Offaly, who some of ye will know from TG4's seo spóirt - if he comes out and says that he'd prefer to represent Offaly in a competition like that, I'll listen. If some ould lads from Kerry tell him that's where he should be locked away into, that's not going to twist my arm. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 07:15:44 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: The Boy Wonder on June 27, 2017, 08:09:41 AM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Better still...
Dublin NE - Ulster
Dublin NW - Connacht
Dublin SW - Munster
Dublin SE - Leinster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 08:18:21 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs.
Roscommon 2-23 Leitrim 1-9.

How many Qualifier games have Leitrim won?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owen Brannigan on June 27, 2017, 11:14:50 AM
The only team handing out drubbings are the the dubs. They're the elephant in the room and we need to stop pumping money into them and develop the weaker counties. Those w**ks in the gaa and media are only interested in hanging the weaker counties out to dry and letting the dubs away with their unfair advantage. Tyrone were shite enough 2-3 years ago and are now the 3rd best team in the land. Donegal came from being Ulster whipping boys to serial contenders in the modern era.

Dublin are the problem and leaving the championship uncompetitive. Tie them up  and Kerry Tyrone Donegal and mayo are f**k all ahead of the chasing pack.

Part of the issue is that the Dubs continue to have home advantage.  they weren't just as hot when taken out of Dublin to play Carlow.  Surely Westmeath deserved an opportunity to play Dublin in the semi final in a major ground in Leinster but not Croke Park that should be reserved for provincial finals and AI quarter finals onwards?

In a smaller stadium with the home crowd closer to the play, it would at least create some levelling for other Leinster teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 11:28:10 AM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 12:15:40 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be.  Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trileacman on June 27, 2017, 12:20:01 PM
That'd be the Dubs, beaten by Kerry in the league final and one point winners after a replay against Mayo in last year's All Ireland? You really think the GAA want a dominant Dublin and to hinder weaker teams?

Yeah that'd be the same Dublin who are back to back ai champions having won 4 of the last 6 all Irelands and who've won 12 of the last 13 leinsters, currently on 7 in a row. Take the blinkers off lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 27, 2017, 12:27:53 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Maroon Manc on June 27, 2017, 12:35:06 PM
I'd like to know what the counties who tend to occupy division 4 county boards think.  Do the likes of Leitrim, Carlow, Antrim, Waterford & Wicklow want the extra games?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Fuzzman on June 27, 2017, 12:59:49 PM
I think what we all learned from RTE's interview with 10 managers shown on Sunday night was that non of them want to be viewed as second rate teams and want to be in with a chance of playing against the big boys at some stage.

However, I think most of us (even the Dubs) enjoy the season when we get a decent run of games where we win a few and have excitement, hope, joy, fear, incident and out for a few jars and a meal to discuss the day. Many of us know we're not gonna win Sam but we can still enjoy the summer and that happens mainly when we play teams around the same level as us.
Whilst it's nice to win your province, I love the idea of going to an away venue for a Sat night game and staying the night and meeting up with old friends etc.

The loyalty to the provincials is a huge stumbling block for most people as they feel they are breaking tradition if they walk away from that set up.

The most simpliest solutuon would seem to be that the top 2 divisions play off against each other and the bottom 2 divisions do the same. It would mean teams from lower divisions still have a chance to get to the 1/4 finals (super 8s) whilst playing competive games with teams at similar levels. As we saw at the weekend Carlow v London was a good game as were a few others qualifiers.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:06:51 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 27, 2017, 01:19:33 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 27, 2017, 01:23:03 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.
Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hereiam on June 27, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 01:34:04 PM
As the capital, Dublin should not be fixed in Leinster. Creates too much of an imbalance in what is already the largest province. Rotate them among all four provinces.

Why should the Dubs get the chance to win every Province? Stupid idea! You are just adding to making Dublin an even more specially treated county. I know the sun shines out of yer arses these days but don't think the rest of us mere mortal are here to accommodate your growing  boredom.
We are special. We are the capital. In 2016, there would have been maybe 8 counties with a realistic chance of winning Leinster if Dublin had not been it. Instead it was just a foregone conclusion from the start. While your post stinks of morbid fear of never winning another Connacht title, it would only be once every 4 years we'd be in Connacht.
Anyway, are you not the one always moaning that you'd love to get the Dubs in Castlebar for a championship match?

Yes, if we meet in the Super 8 I'd expect Dublin to be asked to play us in Castlebar. Fat chance of that happening! It would be horsed up to Croker to keep the Corporate Boxes full and the Big wigs happy. Same would happen with your idea of playing in Connacht. The final would end up in Croker!  Do you get the general idea of how it works now!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:35:01 PM
The GAA don't want to do that. I'm personally not in favour of removing any county from the All Ireland but we do need to do something about our competitions.
Remember, nobody is being removed from the Championship. What I said was if a div 3 or 4 team is beaten in the championship before a certain date, then they would simply go through a backdoor system that only includes other div 3 and 4 teams, with the winners and runners up rejoining the other competition at the quarter final stage.

Change comes slow to the gaa, I remember people up in arms when the back door was introduced. I'm simply proposing that the back door should be based on divisional status - this imo achieves 3 things.
1) more competitive back door games for both tiers
2) easier passage to the later rounds for 2 weaker teams
3) a fair chance to win some silverware in a competition
I assume under your proposal that losing Division 1 and 2 teams would enter another back door system? You're going to run into the issue of odd numbers of teams in each section. Also, a lowly Division 2 team will wonder why they have a harder route through the back door than a competitive Division 3 team.
Yes I am proposing that Div 1 and 2 teams have a seperate back door system and yes it would be tougher for them and so it should be. Div 1 and 2 are the best teams (in theory) and should play the best teams.  Take your point about uneven teams but that's an easy fix with giving teams a bye etc..
I don't see this proposal prolonging the championship, just improving it by having more competitive games.
Why should the bottom team in Division 2 be guaranteed to play a team better than them whilst the top team in Division 3 be guaranteed the opposite?

Your idea isn't bad on the surface so I don't mean to be critical. Just pointing out potential flaws that would be brought up.

Point taken but you have to draw a line somewhere, the bottom team in div 2 would have a better chance of beating a div 1 team than the bottom team in Div 3 or 4

Don't draw a totally arbitrary line to begin with.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 27, 2017, 01:54:30 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: vallankumous on June 27, 2017, 02:26:24 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 27, 2017, 02:34:08 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2017, 02:49:42 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on June 27, 2017, 03:34:55 PM
Give this another thought? Has it been far away from many GAA fans for the last couple of years?

The question, in my opinion, is too simplistic. Is two tiers enough? Is there much point putting London in the same competition as Armagh?

It's funny to hear Brolly saying that it work if enough respect and attention was given to it. He's the very fella that wouldn't give it two minutes of his time.

I think it would probably fail because most stakeholders would have an apathetic view on it. Maybe with time that would change but at the minute I think (guess) that the majority of GAA people would prefer that their own county remains in the hunt for Sam. The media and the neutral TV viewer are the only groups that would differ, in my opinion.

Keep Sam for the second tier. Sell the naming rights of the top tier.

Absolutely brilliant idea. The top tier competition would end up being called the All Ireland AIG Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 12:59:25 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 02:14:33 PM
From 2010 to this year (including the games played this year) Division 4 teams have played 155 games in the championship and only beaten non-Division 4 opposition 15 times.

The breakdown of those 15 wins

Division 3 - 10 wins

Division 2 - 4 wins

Division 1 - 1 win
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 02:41:58 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 28, 2017, 02:55:08 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Nope.

But more people in this poll voted no to separate championships (or did I misunderstand the question?).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 28, 2017, 03:01:17 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Or maybe they just don't have the playing population.
Exactly.
The smallest 11 Counties
Leitrim 0 All Irelands 0 Final appearances
Longford ditto
Fermanagh ditto
Carlow ditto
Ros 2/5/1980
Sligo 0/0
Westmeath 0/0
Offaly 3/6/1982
Laois 0/1/1936?
Monaghan 0/?/?
Cavan 5/ 8 or 9?/1952.
So that's 10 AIs on 120 years - and only Offaly in the last 65 years.

Then there are the 6 hurling Counties - Wexford, Tipperary Kilkenny Waterford Limerick Clare.
Above 17 won 9 Provincial SFCs out of 100 played in the last 25 years.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 05:37:56 PM
Twas 10 actually, not 9.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 28, 2017, 06:16:01 PM
If you take out the counties that are in div 1 or 2 (Roscommon, Cavan and Monaghan ) how many provincials are you left with???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 07:36:50 PM
Leitrim 1
Sligo 1
Laois 1
Westmeath 1
Clare 1
Offaly 1
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:19:01 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 28, 2017, 08:22:51 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.
The decline of pubs and the growth of drinking at home are also Sean Boylan's fault
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on June 28, 2017, 08:24:35 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on June 28, 2017, 08:38:40 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: omaghjoe on June 28, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

Also, Tyrone's rise as a football superpower.

Remarkable that we now have such influence in a competition we don't participate in
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 28, 2017, 09:09:00 PM
The numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 28, 2017, 10:34:07 PM
The attendance at the Leinster final in 2015 and 2016 between Dublin and Westmeath was around the 48,000 mark ; I know the game on Sunday was a semi-final but the attendance was down to 33,370.

Anyone care to guess what the attendance would be like if Dublin play Westmeath next year ?

The average attendance at championship football games has gone from 18,670 in 2001 (the first year of the qualifiers) to 13,146 in 2016.
The total attendance has gone from 1,082,876 in 2001 to 788,746 in 2016. That's a decline of 294,130.
During the same period the population has increased by almost 850,000.

I'd love to know if anyone in the GAA been looking at this decline in detail and seeing what the actual data throws up?

You don't need to be a genius to see there is a definite correlation with Meath's decline as a football superpower.

I think it's related to the increase in ticket prices.

I don't think GAA ticket prices have gone up that much, compared to other sports (rugby, LOI) or other entertainment - cinema and concerts.
This is only my own feeling though.
Anyone have any data?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 29, 2017, 10:11:52 AM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on June 29, 2017, 02:50:47 PM
Comparing now to 2001 the differences could be down to :

Worse economic situation for punters
Emigration of people in their 20s/30s
Rural depopulation
Football is a less attractive product now

Yeah that's a straight comparison between 2001 and 2016 but the thing is the attendances have been steadily trending downward year-on-year, all while the population has been booming.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 29, 2017, 02:52:21 PM
Interesting to see that based on the polling so far a second tier competition is favored  by almost half the respondents.

Are you listening Croke park ?????????

Which means it is not favoured by just over half who expressed a preference.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on June 29, 2017, 02:59:26 PM
The All Ireland series doesn't need a second tier, what needs to happen is that the GAA need to set up a task group to find out what is going wrong in the weaker counties and fix it from the ground up.
I can bet you 9 of 10 counties will have poor youth structures in place which is why they are lagging behind.

Agree 100%. You could try a hundred different competition formats but they won't do a thing for standards. It's like opening and closing the windows in a car in an effort to make it go faster

When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: SCFC on June 29, 2017, 08:45:39 PM
I think it has to be done before long.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Scarlet on June 29, 2017, 10:27:49 PM
There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level.

I am playing in my head the scenes at the county board meetings with that being discussed up and down the country. Anyone here who has ever been to one close their eyes and you can imagine the people going red in the face talking about this.
As I said no county will agree to it no matter what the facts will say.
I for one voted undecided as I honestly don't know until there is more definite parameters. I think dumping all Div 3 and 4 teams down is the cleanest method and would mean the league would be given even more attention but is a nuclear option vefore we even really go for more restructuring within the current system.

If things stay as they are then the suits in Croke Park will be blamed but the grassroots are the ones who will shout loudest against an A and B option.
As I say there is no real logic to it. You have lads from Junior clubs who are playing county and they look around their dressing room back home and accept that is their level. In their hearts they must look around the county dressing room and realise that coming up against certain teams they just are not able to compete.
But for the club it is OK and if they won a county junior title it would be a source of pride. But trying to bring that into intercounty seems to be just a case of not swallowing pride.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 29, 2017, 11:21:33 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 29, 2017, 11:59:34 PM
"There is no way a county board or the county team will have the stomach to take the drop, even if every shred of logic tells them that they are not able to compete at this level."


There is no drop in my proposal, you still play in the provincial championship and you get an opportunity to re-enter ar a later stage if you make it to the final of the second tier competition.  For many teams it means more games and a chance at winning some silverware.

Sligo have won one connacht championship since 1975 which is 42 years, surely players would like a chance at winning something in the championship.....

Dust off the trophy cabinet lads, Tommy Murphy Mark II is on the way!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on June 30, 2017, 12:07:10 AM
Everybody's done very well, really.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 12:18:39 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 01:00:22 AM



When in reality some counties have a V8 engine and others have a 1 litre petrol and no matter how that 1 litre is souped up will always come a distant second.
We'll put.
Honda 50s v Harley Davidsons in the same race.
Wonder who'll win?

The one with enough diesel.

Too many here trying to reducing this to a cute little one line methapor. It will never fit.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:23:04 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 09:31:54 AM
17 Counties - 10% of Provincial titles in 25 years.
20 if you add in the non achievers with big populations ( Antrim Louth Wicklow)
So 35% of Counties win 90% of the Provincials.

Now Syfīn there's 4 lines for you.
But is that dissimilar to other sports?
Premier Leauge - 25 odd years and six winners. Two of whom have won it once each.
Scottish Premier League - Two winners in about 30 years
Spanish League - Three winners - Four winners in 17 years, with Atletico winning it once and Valenica twice, the last of which is 13 years ago.

I know I've only quoted soccer, as it's all I otherwise follow, but I think you know that there's more to entering than winning.

Horses with no chance of winning the Grand National enter every year. At every Olympics you see athletes and swimmers finishing double digit seconds behind the winners of the heats.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 09:46:58 AM
We need a competition that everybody wins in turn. Or maybe everybody could get a wee cup and some medals every year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 09:48:13 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:37:58 AM
Full time Professional sports where all the best players move to the top teams and get very well paid for playing endless series of games.

I know Ballinameen will never win the Ros Co Championship.
They play in the Junior which they have a chance of winning.
Some Inter Clubs have a chance of winning, others fight to preserve their Inter status.
Same at Senior.
Indeed in Roscommon we have 2 "tiers" in both Senior and Inter.

Leitrim will never win the Senior AI.
16 other Counties won't either for population or hurley reasons.
Then there's Louth Antrim Wicklow ( + what do we do with Kildare and the Rhubarbs😁).
The supporters of these teams keep attending the games though and I don't think the type of Olympians I mentioned climb much of a ladder.

My point is that there is more to sport that winning and I think that, regardless of your view on this topic, that it's very clear that this is the case in the inter-county scene.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 10:54:19 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 10:57:02 AM
Only one team can win in any competition but putting Honda 50s racing Harley Davidsons......
Even the Hurling crowd don't do that - they have in effect 5 tiers.
But you seem to be ignoring the point I'm making.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:20:59 AM
A 32 team professional sport = NFL.

Last 20 years.

Packers
Broncos
Rams
Ravens
Patriots
Buccaneers
Steelers
Colts
Giants
Saints
Seahawks

And beaten finalists
Falcons
Titans
Raiders
Panthers
Eagles
Bears
Cardinals
49ers

So out of 32 teams, in the last 20 years there have been 19 different teams in the Superbowl. Obviously some powerhouses like the Patriots appear more than once, but nonetheless that's quite a competitive spread.

Of course the NFL is professional, and thus has movement of players which we do not want. However they have twigged that they need to enforce financial constraints (salary cap) and player welfare considerations thrashed out in the CBA to minimise length of season, off season training etc.

They do a lot wrong in the NFL, but they realise that allowing the big teams free rein in terms of financial power leads to lopsided competition structures, so they've tried to reduce that.

Interestingly, you could say they have a two phased Championship. Everyone plays 16 games, and then the top 6 in both provinces, I mean conferences, play a straight knockout playoffs for the Superbowl.

We can't lift and shift the NFL structure onto Gaelic football, but we can consider their approach to shared revenue and salary caps in a bid to level the playing field. This from the most capitalistic sport in the most capitalistic country in the world.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 11:26:08 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.

Is it the case that lesser numbers are going to matches now because supporters think they have no chance of winning?
I wouldn't agree with that.
Ourselves and Leitrim had no chance of winning an all ireland in 2009/10/11 either so the fall off in attendance is not due to us and Leitrim all of a sudden becoming uncompetitive (in fact, you could argue that we are more competitive now because we are in div 1/2 of the league vs Divs 3/4 in those years).

I'm not convinced that putting us and Leitrim in an inter/junior comp will automatically result in crowds increasing.

Is it possible to get league attendance figures from the last few years? An interesting test would be to check attendances at games between the same teams in different divisions of the league. For example, Ros V Cavan in Div1, Div2 and Div3. or Ros V Mon in Div1 against Div 3 a few years ago. I know there are other factors at play (e.g. different venues etc.) but I would guess that attendances were higher when teams meet in Div 1 rather than the lower division even though the teams would have better chances of winning the lower division. I could be proved wrong, but it'd be interesting to see the stats.
Other teams off the top of my head that would have meet in different divisions, RosVDown, TyroneVCavan, CorkVDown, WestmeathVKildare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: manfromdelmonte on June 30, 2017, 11:26:58 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
Is it that people still go to games?
Lesser numbers though as people are pointing out in earlier posts.
2009/10/11 Ros played Leitrim 3 years in a row. Each game drew around 13k.
Last 3 meetings we're talking 8.5k.
No, that the main stakeholders, i.e. players, management, spectators, don't necessarily see the ability to win Sam as the main factor for remaining in the race to win it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on June 30, 2017, 11:37:23 AM
all sports in the USA are run on a very communist style organisation designed to keep things very competitive and ensure fairness in terms of budget, player rosters etc

NBA
NFL
NHL
MLB
NCAA

NCAA is not. It's the most lopsided of all even though it is amateur. Granted some TV rights and the like are shared between conferences, but there's nothing to stop big colleges paying massive coaching salaries, or in the biggest schools recruiting the best players because they have the best facilities or the big name.

MLB doesn't have a salary cap I believe, and therefore you have massive wage bills and free agent signings. When the Yankees are involved, they usually get who they want, or at least they did up until about 5 years ago. They have introduced a luxury tax alright, which penalises those high salaries, but it's not stopping them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 11:56:48 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 12:28:21 PM
Should more counties go down the "Jack Charlton route"?

Maybe all minor and U21 teams from Dublin, Cork, Kerry, (etc?) ... should be made list where their parents are from, e.g:

Sean Og O hAilpin - mother from Fiji, father from Fermanagh

So if he hadn't made the breakthrough into the Cork senior team, Fermanagh (or Fiji!) could have tried to persuade him to play with them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Estimator on June 30, 2017, 12:31:14 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

There was only 5 different winners in those years (sharing 22 titles)
Kerry 10 titles
Dublin 4 titles
Offaly 3 titles
Cork 3 titles
Meath 2 titles

And a number of those finals were non-events as it was so one-sided.

I'm sure teams still want the opportunity to play for the top prize, it doesn't matter it they are rank outsiders, they still want the chance to take on a big team, a chance of Provincial/ All Ireland glory etc.

A local club example would be Glenullin, they were relegated from the top division in 2015, which meant that they would play in the Intermediate C'ship in 2016 (League and C'ship is linked in Derry).  Instead they applied to play in the Senior C'ship, which was granted to them.  This meant a rejig of the draw and a Premlim fixture had to be played. Glenullin were beaten by 6pts by Loup in the first round.

Glenullin, won the Intermediate league at a canter.  They probably would have won the Intermediate C'ship easily, and could possibly have won Ulster and All-Ireland titles.  But they wanted the opportunity to play in the Senior Championship.  They would probably make the same decision again if it happened.

The promises of similar coverage, and big days in Croke Park for Intermediate and Junior teams playing in the Paidi Cup, or whatever they would be called, are ridiculous. Look at the coverage the finals of the Ring, Rackard, Meagher had this year.  The finals were held on a random Saturday in June. It was only being streamed on the TG4 website.  Its not something that you accidentally find when you are scrolling through the channels.  You had to know where to go to find the 2nd, 3rd and 4th tier hurling finals.  Exactly the same thing would happen in the football.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 30, 2017, 12:34:37 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on June 30, 2017, 02:11:20 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?
[/b]
No idea and no idea why you're asking me in response to my point.

It might be that if a tiered championship was introduced that it would be the best thing that the GAA ever did. However, as it stands, there will be huge resistance to it for many reasons. Not agreeing with the logic doesn't mean they don't exist regardless of what you try to compare it to.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hound on June 30, 2017, 02:59:39 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 03:21:07 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 30, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.


Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

Ok I see your point.

But if you split the groups based on league placing (for example) Leitrim will never play Ros while Ros are in Div 2 and Leitrim in Div 4. Do you think that Leitrim V Carlow/Waterford/Limerick will ever attract a crowd of 8 thousand for a first round championship game?
Local rivarly adds a lot to the attendance IMO.
I am in favour of keeping the Provincials with all teams taking part.
It's just the A.I.s  should be Senior/Inter/Junior.

Aka Tommy Murph lite.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Keyser soze on June 30, 2017, 03:25:28 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 30, 2017, 03:25:46 PM
Between Down's All Ireland victory in 1968 and their next one in 1991, only two Ulster teams made it to the AI Final - Armagh 1977 (Beat by 12 points) and Tyrone 1986 (Beat by 8 pts). In the same time frame, Connacht teams reached the final 6 times (Galway 4, Roscommon 1, Mayo 1). They were beaten on all 6 occasions.  Were there any calls for Ulster and Connacht teams to play in a separate Championship as they had little or no chance of winning Sam?

Yeah, there was an 18 year period (between Galway beating Down in the AI semi final of 1973 and Down beating Kerry in the semi final of 1991) where the Connacht/Ulster champions lost to the Munster/Leinster champions every time they played in semi finals/finals. There were 2 draws in 1985, but not too many others
87 also had a draw between Cork and Galway
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 30, 2017, 04:35:41 PM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 01, 2017, 05:11:08 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 01, 2017, 09:12:56 AM
I think it is self evident that the introduction of the Qualifiers has led to a greater disparity between the elite counties and the rest, the super 8 will serve only to widen this disparity and the introduction of a tiered championship will be the death knell for county football in many weaker counties.

The tiered championships in hurling has led to the almost complete demise of hurling as a competitive sport in Ulster as far as I can see.
Yes indeed them Ulster boys sure were able to put Cork, Tipp Kilkenny etc in their boxes from 1884 till the Ring Rackard etc came in.

Nice one rossfan 
Hardly. Nobody said the Ulster boys did anything. The point, right or wrong, was that the weaker hurling counties had gotten weaker.

Rossfan is not at his usual best on this thread, in my opinion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 01, 2017, 09:55:25 AM
Good points by AZ about the Yanks of all people levelling the playing field as it were.
Westbound the main reason the LM/ Ros games had bigger crowds in 9/10/11 was that LM had a hope of beating us then ( we were D3 and D4 then).
Last 3 years we had gone beyond having any possibility of close and exciting games with them and 5k people were giving the game a miss.

Esmarelda - would the Rackard, Meagher and weaker Ring hurlers like to be thrown into a 35 Co McCarthy cup race?

There was fûck all chance of Leitrim giving us a game and us Connacht champions in 2011.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 01, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
I would support  a second tier featuring Dublin and Kerry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:22:00 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:27:36 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 07:34:04 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 01, 2017, 07:52:30 PM
People over reacted last week on the back of Dublin hammering Westmeath.
The Sunday game had a part of the show dedicated to it.
You really think lads would play with that drive for a 2nd tier game ?
Not a chance.
If it was a proper competition with decent rewards then yes absolutely. Hurlers don't have a problem playing in the Nicky rackard and Christy ring competitions. Teams of similar standards playing against each other with promotion and relegation based on performance. A lot of sports have been using this simple basis for their competitions for centuries!!!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: FermGael on July 01, 2017, 08:02:35 PM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on July 01, 2017, 08:03:23 PM
Derry gave Mayo a serious scare and Longford seemed to have troubled Donegal .
Leave things alone

If either had one they would still likely have been well beaten in their next game. Neither team would have any chance of winning the All Ireland. Surely it would be better to put them in a competition they would have a chance to win.

More to cup competitions than just winning them. Upsets like Down last week or competitive performance from the underdogs like Derry,Longford  today draws plenty of interest. Down,Kildare,Roscommon,Cork all underdogs in the upcoming provinal finals would all take a provincial title over some 2nd tier Championship title.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: giveballaghback on July 01, 2017, 08:09:24 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 01, 2017, 08:20:02 PM
What will we call the competition? The half all-ireland championship ::)

We have that Already it's called Hurling!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: ONeill on July 01, 2017, 08:27:11 PM
The weird thing is that a lot of the two-tiered county vocalists are supposedly avid club men.

If that's the case, who gives a fook how many tiers there are at county level. The sooner your club men are out the better.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnneycool on July 03, 2017, 10:28:16 AM
If you look at the hurling model it's been a diaster.
The secondary competitions are all over by mid June.
None of the finals were on national TV.
The gap between the top tier and in the rest is getting bigger and bigger.

It wasn't always that way.
The finals used to be played before the AI semi-finals in August then we'd "hurling" men in Nicky Brennan and Christy Cooney coming in and changing it so that the minors were back in before those games.

Can't argue with your last point though although Westmeath, Carlow and Laois would be a bit yoyo from CR to AI series.

Ulster hurling is on its uppers and is poorly served by the Ulster Football Council.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 02:37:41 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 13, 2017, 03:05:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:21:29 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 03:27:59 PM
They'd have a nice shiny cup plus medals to display.
A home game in the last 12 for the Tier 2 winners.

You're actively turning people against the idea of a second tier with stuff like that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 03:44:25 PM
How exactly?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 13, 2017, 03:50:10 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!
He's not wrong as I assume nobody suggested to him anything about being able to re-enter the AI series.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 13, 2017, 04:13:30 PM
First of all we would need to know how many teams are in the second tier? 16, 12, 8? Secondly how would we rank them? Would it be based solely on league rankings every year? Would it create more emphasis on the league? Or should I say would year 1 be based on league rankings and the rest as up down relegation/promotion in the new championship format itself?

I have another question, why just because you won the second tier championship should you automatically be re-entered into the top tier 'last whatever number' as FtB says? Should that not be for the top tier counties only? People cite the junior, intermediate and senior model, but I have never known an intermediate winner to automatically be guaranteed a senior quarter final place?

I'm not trying to be awkward, just stating some questions that I'm sure individual county boards might ask if they were asked to vote on it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 13, 2017, 04:16:53 PM
With all this talk of re-entry, can someone give an example of a county where the Intermediate champions are then allowed in the Senior championship semi finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 13, 2017, 04:35:16 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 04:37:48 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 04:38:02 PM
I totally favour the 3 tier Senior Inter Junior model as per Club Championships.
However I doubt I'll live to see it so we're talking what might pass Congress and what would the weak/ Hurling Counties go for.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 13, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
I think first the calender should be sorted out for clubs and county A compact season for both) , all counties get at least say four championship games at a minimum along with 7 league games and some sort of central pot for coaching and development is organised with the weakest teams being funded from this the most per head of population (ala draft position in American Football) , trial this for a decade , then if intercounty is as divided as it is now then go for a tiered championship!!

I just think not much really has been tried to even the playing field at all apart from the qualifiers but if weaker counties got a genuine chance to develop I think they could have success but we are always going to have bad counties and one sided games no matter what system is in place!! More games less training and a proper calender will give counties with a good plan a chance for succes in my opinion!!

( see I am asking for feck all change really ;D ;D ;D)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 05:34:33 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:30:35 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 13, 2017, 06:35:28 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??

You don't need to be a top four team to be a vibrant part of the championship..
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 13, 2017, 06:40:18 PM
What's a "vibrant part of the Championship"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:48:14 PM
How exactly?

Trophies and medals have value because of the glory involved in winning them - collecting pointless trophies no one cares about would be like crowing about FBD titles. And R4 of the Quailifiers is hardly a carrot.
What about  Hurling League Champions, Football League Semi finalists ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 13, 2017, 06:49:00 PM
So if Leitrim get more money per head than Dublin they'll become a top 4 team??
They would have to stop sending top players to Meath as well
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LCohen on July 13, 2017, 07:12:31 PM
I would be in favour of equal funding for all counties first. With zero drug/supplement bullshit.
If that doesn't work try tiering.

There are 3 options for a tiered championship.

Straight forward tiered system where everyone starts and ends the champions in tier 1 or 2. Promotion for the winners and some sort fight in the colosseum to identify who replaces them.

A champions league style group that determines your position in the tiered knock out competitions. Tiered competitions running in parallel.

Lower tier played out first with entry into the upper tier for the winner.

Option 3 is a scheduling nightmare.

No doubt serious drug testing with serious consequences for cheating is a must.

A serious look at funding is also required
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 14, 2017, 01:49:47 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 03:05:26 AM
A lot of counties can go a long time without shooting the lights out  and doing a good run in the qualifiers  a la Carlow this year.  Football has a structural problem in that Sam tends to be shared amongst a small group of counties unless something special  comes out of Ulster.

While there have been decent provincial and qualifier runs over recent years by teams such as Tipp, Clare, Sligo, London, Antrim, Longford, Fermanagh and Meath, it has usually been against enormous odds and hard to replicate. And for every D3/D4 team that does it there are at least 10 that are out of contention by mid June. Would a 2 Tier system lift the overall standard and make an all Ireland by an untouchable county more likely? Maybe it would, if combined with financial reform. Would the counties support such a proposal that might shake up the system? No. Counties and players love their chains. They are still loyal to that  one in 40 year thing. To win just once 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 11:43:32 AM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: magpie seanie on July 14, 2017, 11:50:42 AM
Have you been drinking?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 12:00:21 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 12:34:12 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
I like the inept category
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 01:22:23 PM
Now to upset some people -
Counties fall into a number of categories
Natural Senior (population/recent success) -
Donegal, Tyrone, Down, Galway, Mayowestros, Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Meath Kildare. 10.
Natural Inter (pop 60-100k) -
 Monaghan, Cavan, Ros, Sligo,Westmeath, Laois and Offaly. 7.
Natural Junior -
Fermanagh, Leitrim, Longford, Carlow and London 5.
Hurley Counties -
Wexford, Kilkenny, Waterford, Tipp, Clare and Limerick. 6.
Inept (big populations uncompetitive) -
Louth, Antrim and Wicklow. 3.
Protestant Counties -

 Armagh and Derry. 2.
Of the last 50 All Irelands 45 were won by Senior Counties, 3 by 1 Inter County which is at a very low ebb now and 2 by Prod Counties who have slipped somewhat.
Who'd have thought that a collection of counties "with recent success" would dominate a list of the last 50 AI winners?

;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 01:38:32 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Crete Boom on July 14, 2017, 02:11:41 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????


I think Ross the Gaa should instigate an independent review of these counties and major urban areas (especially since they have a sucessful urban area in Dublin to go off) and put it to these counties to come up with a viable plan to improve. Money should only be committed on the basis of a workable long term plan i.e not just building a big concrete stand or hiring a big name manager!!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 02:44:15 PM
Recent success = Tyrone.
Don't drink (much) any more Seànie. - just still a bit excited since Sunday ;D.
Serious question - should special funding be directed towards the "inept" to make them competitive rather than to Dublin?
How about trying to improve participation in Gaelic games in West Belfast Derry City Dundalk Drogheda Athlone Sligo town????
They all have soccer cultures

I think Wicklow should be colonised by motivated club players from the west coast . The local Irish in places like Baltinglass could function as backup
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 02:46:47 PM
Agreed but would they need a Croke Park full time official to wore with them in devising the right plan and overseeong/driving it.
The point I was making in my light hearted categories piece (lost on some I'd think) is that the AI SFC is the preserve of the few, that population, hurling, 6 Cos demographics and ineptiness rules out up to 20 Counties from future competing seriously for Sam.
So do we 20 odd keep hoping we might draw a few weak teams like Carlow did, get the odd oul Provincial or get to the Quarters via the Qualifier now and then or pray that a load of Kerry men will marry in and breed better players?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 03:24:50 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 04:02:38 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

Great post and the sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland as you have highlighted here the better but unfortunately i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want.
To date, I think they have listened. They've acknowledge that there is an appetite to retain the provincials and that there's not an appetite to bring in a tiered-championship among inter-county players.

Supporters may be split on this but the campaign is mostly coming from elements of the media. The GAA get a lost of abuse for the decisions they make but we can only hope that they don't let such campaigns guide them.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:18:45 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 04:29:26 PM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


Fair play to him talking sense there.

I'd say he speaks for most players from so called weaker counties there. A b championship will never work in football. It was tried a few years ago and failed miserably. A couple of wins and a decent draw can lead any well trained team to still be playing championship football in mid July. To see Carlow as one of the last 14 teams left is amazing for me. A home game v Monaghan live on tv, in front of a massive Carlow crowd on Saturday evening. This beats any stupid B championship competition, where the final is played before 50 uninterested people.

sooner some realize that there is more to All Ireland championship than just winning the All Ireland .....the better
Moysider Farrandeelin Creteen Lar etc please note!!!

And you who won't be that bothered if Roscommon are placed into Intermediate/B section competition!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2017, 04:44:56 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?


 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 14, 2017, 04:47:32 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

I'm still laughing at the idea best Connacht final victory in at least 37 years makes the year a 5/10. I'll get back to you when I stop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on July 14, 2017, 05:04:38 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on July 14, 2017, 05:43:22 PM
i feel some stupid B championship will be brought in by the men in suits at congress whom won't listen to what the majority of players and supporters want. 

With all the negativity, more people have voted for a two tier competition than have voted against it.  Granted a small sample but the suggestion is obviously favored by quite a few followers on this board.  I would only be in favor if the prize was re-entry to the championship at the latter stages
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on July 14, 2017, 05:46:41 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2017, 06:05:55 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 14, 2017, 11:04:19 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?
Absolutely. But as it stands, it seems that the players agree.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 14, 2017, 11:57:42 PM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 12:22:26 AM
Carlow captain Darragh Foley says a second tier championship does not appeal to him.

A championship for lower-ranked counties has been mooted again this year but Foley feels it would be of no benefit to the Barrowsiders, whom face Monaghan at home this weekend in round three of the All-Ireland SFC qualifiers.

"It wouldn't appeal to me. If you're playing in a 'B' championship you're seen as a lesser player,” Foley told the Irish Independent.

"We'd never get a chance in a 'B' championship like we're getting on Saturday - playing a Division 1 team in a Round 3 qualifier at home before Sky TV cameras. That's where you want to be."


You see that's where he is wrong! If there was a last 12 or quarter final place for the second tier winners there would be a chance of playing a Division 1 team before Sky cameras. And they would have had a couple of games in the Championship and Silverware!

Sure what would he know about it.

So he goes into a last 12 or last 8. So lets say 16 in top tier, 16 in bottom. How do we go about this craic where the winner of bottom tier all of a sudden landing into the last 12 of the top tier. This means the bottom tier will have to be wrapped up before the top tier even attempts to take of properly.



Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 01:11:07 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 01:24:12 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2017, 05:47:54 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

I don't think you understand how rugby is structured very well.
I don't know if you understand how money works
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: criostlinn on July 15, 2017, 09:59:44 AM
If we're not good enough for Senior.......
We are this year though 8)
So "just winning the AI" is just a nuisance thing?
Sure why have competition at all? Why keep scores? Why does the team who scores most go on to another round? Why have cups and medals?

The underdog stories like Down,Roscommon winning against the odds v Monaghan,Galway this summer or Tipp reaching AI semi final last year is what is makes this competition a bit special. Look at any cup competitions across the world, the top teams more often or not will win them but its the underdog stories that will last a lifetime e.g non or lower league team in England causing a few upsets in the FA Cup.

Exactly and the memories Tipp players and supporters got from winning last years All Ireland quarter final is something they will never forget while in comparison winning a B competition will be quickly forgotten.
That is a value judgement.
Is winning the Pro 12 a joke ?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBALg4xBWXQ
Or would it be better to lose valiantly in the pool group of TAFKA Heineken cup?

I don't know what your point is. The pro 12 is not a B competition.
It effectively is. How many English and French clubs does it have ?

Ok you have me totally lost. Why would English and French teams be in a competition for teams from Ireland, Scotland Wales and Italy. Does this make the English Premiership or French Super 12 also B competitions. Where does it stop. Are you suggesting in Soccer the  Premiership or La Liga are B competitions because they don't have all the top sides from Europe.

If you're looking at it like that then we already have B championships. The Connacht or Ulster Championship doesn't involve Kerry or Dublin.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 11:09:52 AM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on July 15, 2017, 01:25:44 PM
Play the provincials and Sam in the winter, league in the summer.  Everyone enters Sam; provincials with local rivalries remain.  Everyone knows how long their summer season is, and more games between teams of similar levels in summer.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2017, 02:42:00 PM
We'll have 5 B Championships next year
Connacht, Ulster, Leinster, Munster, Qualifiers
All feed into the A Championship a.k.a "Super 8" or top 8 or Big 8.
Some Counties ( small,inept, hurling) will be finished around the 1st week of June.
Very hard to develop a team if you have a 4 month season.
Four? What teams start out in the first week of February?

And think of the benefits to the club scene in those counties having the whole summer to play games. Please some of the people and all that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2017, 03:00:51 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 15, 2017, 03:32:39 PM
Will the June/July semi pro American circus be abolished?

Do you think that's going to stop college lads going on J1s? Daft buck.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2017, 04:41:10 PM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 06:44:05 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: macdanger2 on July 16, 2017, 09:30:19 AM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 16, 2017, 11:08:15 AM
No wish to stop people going on J1s and it is good that they play GAA, but each US team should only be allowed play one or two imports.

No they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 16, 2017, 12:22:05 PM
After all the huffing and puffing there is only one Division 3 team in the last 12,  namely Armagh . And Armagh is hardly a disadvantaged county football-wise.
The qualifiers favour the bigger teams.
It is great to see Carlow getting a run but for every Carlow there are maybe 10 counties who did nothing. Such as Laois.

The top table is a closed shop. Outside of Ulster nobody has broken into it since Offaly 50 years ago. It is not easy to see how to fix it, especially given that everyone wants to be in the same competition.

No amount of championship restructuring is going to improve standards, investment in coaching and team preparation is all that will do that.
Fair funding and support for high standard coaching would be required for that. The qualifiers are pretty useless in terms of developing weaker counties.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on July 16, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
The super 8 will create a second tier so there is no need to worry about it. It's already here in another guise. There is now a first tier and the rest can just go whistle. Sky are happy, Dublin football will be happy, the coffers in headquarters in Croker will be happy.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 18, 2017, 10:51:36 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: dublin7 on July 18, 2017, 11:09:34 PM
No way, nothing can beat the feeling of still being part of the main championship deep into July. Last Saturday night even for me was unforgettable, never mind all the young kids who filled Dr Cullen Park at half time in their Carlow & Monaghan jerseys to play their games.
We got a home game, live on tv against a Div 1 side. All week in Carlow there was flags everywhere, out of cars, it was all that people were talking about. Thousands came to support Carlow, instead of the usual 150 of us!

We gave it a good go, and even led with 10 mins left, but sadly the energy and their stronger bench won the day. But by jesus we had them very worried. It was even after the game on the pitch with the players that said it all, they were in bits, felt they had it there for the taking. One of the guys who missed a great goal chance was hardly able to talk.
Most of the players were signing autographs, getting selfies...the teenagers and kids look up to them as heroes now. All those youngsters want to be Brendan Murphy, Sean Gannon, Paul Broderick, Sean Murphy etc.....
It's great  for the future of Carlow football. The Cul camps are sold out for 1st time ever.

If we were stuck in some B championship nobody would care less. A B championship would kill off a county like us.

Carlow got that far by beating teams of their own standard. If teams get 4/5 games every summer it would lead to increased interest and improvements in standards. The "B" championship was poorly organised and treated as a joke by croke park. This insistence on calling it a potential "B" championship doesn't help. If a new trophy was commissioned and called Kevin Heffernan cup for example, finals played in croke park together with All Ireland semi final and earlier rounds televised and marketed I think it would be a success
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 12:52:20 AM
Sadly that just won't happen. It'll end up like the hurling Christy Ring...1st year out it was live on before an AI semi final...then it fell away and ended up 1 year played on a saturday night in tullamore, with 3 mins highlights on Sunday game.
Different levels are needed in hurling, as the gaps in standard all along the way are massive. So that is necessary but needs to be worked on.

In Football it's not the same at all, there's the top 3/4 after that then maybe another few that might compete with them on a good day. But we have proven that even one of the worst teams in Div 4 can be level with Monaghan with 5 mins to go, and we held Dublin to 4 points with 20 mins to go, until we lost our best player to a red card. This year we have proved that any team with a decent structure and intelligent gameplan plus obviously a good committed group of players can compete with even the best.
They are already planning to give it a go again next year, hoping to avoid Dublin in the draw and looking at potential Leinster final.

A B championship in any name will always be a lesser tournament and players won't commit, fans won't go. Nobody will care, no matter what it's called. I'd rather have an occasion like we had on Saturday ahead of winning any made up stupid Kevin Heffernan Cup by beating Leitrim or someone in the final in front of about 100 people.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on July 19, 2017, 02:02:32 AM
The Carlow manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: stevecw on July 19, 2017, 03:00:01 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.

In what way? I'd try to explain all that he has done to improve Carlow, but trying to get yourself to try and talk sense is probably hard to do when you can't even spell Carlow at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on July 19, 2017, 03:02:02 AM
I think Turlough O Brien is very impressive
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on July 19, 2017, 10:02:00 AM
The Caroiw manager comes across as some chancer in fairness. I thought Carew was a bluff machine but he's taken the biscuit this year.
Carew is surely a bluff machine. At least O'Brien has given Carlow supporters something to remember, Carew gave us national humiliation and stagnation otherwise. And self-serving guff in the Champion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 10, 2017, 01:01:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 01:39:40 PM
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=274218

Interesting article in Hoganstand.  Very valid and disturbing point about the margin of victories in the quarter finals....

Sure that's bollox. If you're taking the quarter finals as proof that we need tiered championships, Tier one would basically be the 4 semi finalists. I made this point months ago when this was raised. If we are trying to avoid heavy beatings, then the only solution is to separate the top 3 or 4 teams in Tier one, and you could have 5 or 6 tiers by the time you finished.

A tiered championship is mostly championed by media as far as I can see, and it's to avoid covering Carlow and the likes as they have the temerity to take a weekend in the summer away from the big guns facing each other. The problem, the real problem, is that the big guns are separating from the pack, in a very small and exclusive bunch, and no amount of restructuring fixtures will change that.

The Super 8s will go some way towards giving the media what they want, as you will theoretically have the top 8 playing each other in 12 matches. However, if the formline from last weekend held, and you had 2 or 3 blowouts in each group, and a dead rubber or two, you'll see support for that fading away as well.

Helping, and enabling, all counties to make the most of their resources, without quite deliberately making it harder for them to improve by disproportionate financial support to other counties, is the best way of improving standards, and competitiveness. Making monsters, and then wondering why they are eating everyone, is daft.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 10, 2017, 02:33:52 PM
Beautifully put AZ.

Was Fitzsimons thinking this after the Mayo v Roscommon draw but decided to hold on to get a full hand of hammerings.

If he's thinking it for a year and a half why didn't he say it when Tipp reached the SF last year.

More of the same from a different mouth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 10, 2017, 02:46:11 PM
Two 16 team championships. Straight knock out. No back door.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (senior) play off. Bottom 4 drop to the second tier the next year.
4 Semi-finalists in the second tier move up to Senior the following year.
8 teams beaten in round 1 (2nd tier) play off for a 3rd tier trophy if there is a need to ensure everyone gets a minimum of 2 games.

No seeding, no links to the league. Win 2 games and you play with the big boys the following year. Lose 2 and you go back down.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 10, 2017, 03:24:48 PM
No Provincials?
No point to second tier Semis and Final
How do you decide top 16?
What's in it for Leitrim?
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx.
Home and away or Neutral venues?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 10, 2017, 05:56:26 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: AZOffaly on August 10, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 11, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
No Provincials? Correct, they are part of the current imbalance.
No point to second tier Semis and Final. When you have played and won two why not go on try to win 2 more to get some silverware, even if it is only an intermediate championship?
How do you decide top 16? League for the first initial line in the san. Then purely previous championship performance.
What's in it for Leitrim? About as much as they get now. There is a chance that once every 60 years they might make an all-Ireland intermediate final.
34 Championship games instead if 60 approx. More time for club football.
Home and away or Neutral venues? Neutral after the first round.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 11, 2017, 03:46:49 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on August 12, 2017, 07:39:02 PM
Yet another individual involved in the day-in-day-out business of being a bottom-tier footballing county team calling for change.

Yet another? As far as I'm aware there was a survey there recently of div 4 type managers and all of them mentioned change but i believe only one of them called for tiers. It actually may have been this lad.

Exactly. There's been no shortage of media heads, and pundits from Dublin, Kerry or Mayo calling for tiers, but I haven't heard anyone who actually would be cut adrift actually looking for this sort of a system. Fitzsimons' comments are pretty much the first ones that I would take seriously, because he's speaking on behalf of a county that would be cut off into the reincarnated Tommy Murphy cup.

Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 12, 2017, 10:01:54 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 12, 2017, 10:19:13 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 12, 2017, 11:37:07 PM
So why aren't all clubs playing in just a single County Championship?
Why can't Ballinameen players pit themselves against St.Brigids??
Can you imagine the poor Donegal or Leitrim hurlers pitting themselves against Galway, Cork or Waterford?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on August 12, 2017, 11:40:15 PM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: From the Bunker on August 13, 2017, 12:17:18 AM
No team will have an interest in a second tier competition if it is a fall back after being beaten in the primary competition.
For a second tier to work it has to be the only show in town for those teams.

True! and the only way out is to win it!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 12:40:03 AM
Senior Inter and Junior All Irelands.
Provincials open to all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Lone Shark on August 13, 2017, 01:31:31 AM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 10:36:34 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 13, 2017, 11:23:09 AM
Make an announcement that the new All Irelands will begin in 2021. They will be based on league positions. There will be three of them.
Senior will have all division 1 plus top 4 of division 2
Intermediate will have bottom 4 of division 2 plus top 6 of division 3
Junior will have the remainder

Or go for this one.
A staggered way to join one competition but all knock out
All div 4 and 3 teams and New York play in round 1 of Sam with a prelim in it.
That will leave 8 of them for round 2 to play the div 2 teams
That will leave 8 for round 3 to play div 1 teams
That will leave 8 altogether
Now play the provincials
If a county that isn't in the 8 wins a provincial, add it in
That brings us to the q finals with prelim or two possibly to play
Then s finals then final

Don't get the point of the second one. It just makes it easier for division 1 teams to get to a semi final. That's not what's needed.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 13, 2017, 11:47:10 AM
Division 1 teams usually make up the Semi Finalists anyway.
Tipp were the exception last year but they did beat 2 "big" teams to get there - Cork and the Connacht Champions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Hardy on August 13, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
Waterford manager Tom McGlinchey and London manager Ciaran Deely from earlier on in the year.

http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/ (http://www.the42.ie/tom-mcglinchey-waterford-2-3407747-May2017/)

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/ (https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0530/879042-london-boss-deely-wants-a-second-tier-competition/)

Firstly - I like Tom McGlinchey, and I think he's done a decent job with Waterford - but he is a Cork man. He was brought up thinking that in footballing terms, Waterford are second tier by their nature, and while I've no doubt that he's put his heart and soul into his job, it is just that to him - a job. It's not the same as somebody asking for their own county to be relegated; the county they grew up supporting, playing for, committed to.

Maybe I'm being unfair, but to me, that's a Cork man suggesting a second tier - and until he's also suggesting that Cork should be in it, I'm not taking that the same as I would the comments of someone like Frank Fitzsimons. Now if an experienced player, someone like Paul Whyte or Thomas O'Gorman came out and asked for it, that would be different. Tom McGlinchey asking for it is the same as when Pat Flanagan went on the Sunday game and suggested that Westmeath should be in an All Ireland B competition. Yet funnily enough, he never asked for that when in charge of his native county.
 
London is a bit of a special case too. They don't have a special rivalry with their neighbours that they want to keep alive, and they will always be very different from the county sides from the island of Ireland. Again, very few players grow up with a deeply held love of County London, in the same way that 99% of the readers of this board grew up loving their own county. They don't have a bank of memories of provincial games that they treasure, and they don't have those one-off days to aspire to in the same way.

Neither Offaly nor Westmeath were at anything in this year's Leinster championship, but for two days in June, that was all that mattered. That was our All Ireland, and winning or losing it meant far more than any Junior competition. London don't have that, so of course their view will be different.


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.   

In addition, it's the players who don't want to be second tier. Nobody is surprised that (especially blow-in) managers want to compete in a competition in which they have a chance of success and consequently a better prospect of keeping their jobs appointments and expenses.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on August 13, 2017, 02:04:52 PM
Do the fans want a continuation of the status quo?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 02:50:20 PM
The players want to compete at club level and they have tiered leagues and Championships. They can do the same at county level and get used to it
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: mrhardyannual on August 13, 2017, 05:08:05 PM
You can devise as many tiered championships as you like but if the concept fails to engage the players from the counties destined for the lower tiers  it's not going to be a runner. Leagues are designed to allow teams to make gradual progress. Championships are about pitting yourself against the best even if the odds are hopeless. No championship is going to equalise Carlow and Meath, let alone the "Top 4".

That is why hurling lets all counties enter the Liam McCarthy is it?
No. The reason that hurling counties are tiered is that so few counties entered the All Ireland Senior Championship before the tiering was introduced. Antrim in Ulster and Galway in Connacht were the only representatives of their provinces. In Leinster, Louth & Longford never took part and Westmeath and Carlow were occasionally there. That gave you 16 counties that were delighted to get an alternative  competition.
In football , only Kilkenny have been absentees. My point was that change will only come if the counties affected at the bottom level vote for it and at the moment it doesn't appear that they will.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 13, 2017, 11:13:06 PM
Counties in the bottom levels will not vote for tiers because it would add to the pressure to win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on August 14, 2017, 11:01:20 AM
I'm curious to know if there were calls for a tiered championship in the 50s and 60s. We're Carlow, Wicklow, Fermanagh et al at a similar standard of all the teams?  Was every game close?  Or what about when Kerry hammered Clare in Miltown Malbay? Was everyone clamouring for a tiered championship then? Is it just to make weak counties to feel good about themselves that this has come about, or the fact all these hidings are televised?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Captain Obvious on August 14, 2017, 11:09:33 AM


To me, this argument is the same as people who think that there should be better public transport. Some people want it because they themselves would happily take a bus or a light rail to work, even if it involved some additional inconvenience. More people just want it because they think it'll get more cars off the road and thus make their own drive to work a bit more pleasant.
Well put. The has v the has nots. Just look at one of the recent comments. Just bring it in and those that doesn't want it can "get used to it"  ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Dub000737 on August 16, 2017, 11:43:19 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RedHand88 on August 16, 2017, 11:45:59 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on August 17, 2017, 12:09:18 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on August 17, 2017, 12:42:53 AM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.

You can fix that without having a tiered championship though.
If you make the Provincials stand alone and then AI Championship(s) separate?
By the way When Galway lost a game before  getting to the AI QF by winning 2 games. ;)

And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Dublin have not had to play a single competive game of football to reach this AISF, by the way.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on August 17, 2017, 04:22:39 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on August 17, 2017, 04:28:20 PM
Most of the NOTS are the same people who see nothing wrong with Galway and Kerry having to win two games to reach the AI QFs while Tyrone and Dublin had to win 3. Head up a** time.
How do you know who the "NOTS" are? How many is most? 51% of them?

If Sligo won Connacht by beating Galway and Mayo, do most of the NOTS think that to be easier or harder than Dublin beating Carlow, Wicklow and Wexfod?

Most importantly, what do the minority of NOTS think?


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on August 17, 2017, 10:34:26 PM
And Connacht was far stronger than Ulster back then too. I think it was 2000 when all four league semi-finalists were Connacht teams. But I suppose football was invented in 2002 so I wouldn't expect them to know that.

Odd that you say that as the 2000 Connacht Championship was one of the worst ever in modern times. Sligo beat Mayo and then got tanked by Galway, trailing 14 points to nil at half time. Roscommon imploded against Leitrim who themselves imploded against Galway in a cakewalk Connacht final.
It was 2001 when Connacht had all four league semi finalists. The Championship had Mayo edging us out in Castlebar by a point courtesy of Tom Nallen and his 26 steps goal, Galway were then turfed out by Ros in Tuam before the Rossies beat Mayo in the final with a last gasp goal. That general era from the late 90's through to 2003/4 was a great one for Connacht in the sense of having four quite competitive, if not perhaps very consistent, teams and all operating at the higher echelons, ourselves and Ros were in D1 for most of that time, Mayo had their near misses for the big one and won their only national title since 1970 in that time, and Galway of course carried home Sam twice and but for Savage being selfish late on v Kerry in 2000 might have had a third title too.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on August 18, 2017, 12:37:35 PM
Good time indeed owenmoresider.  However, with the exception of Galway, no Connacht team has won an all-ireland since 1951 which is 66 years.
Maybe we should allow mayo into the second tier also.....

Interesting to see that there are more votes in favour than against.  I stress again that the winners and runners-up would re-enter the championship under my suggestion.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on June 25, 2018, 01:00:07 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:13:40 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 01:18:09 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Such as?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 01:34:01 PM
3 Tiered All Irelands senior Junior and Inter with promotion and relegation.
Keep the Provincials with all Countues taking part with some perks for the winners.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Jinxy on June 25, 2018, 01:48:27 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 01:51:03 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 02:42:30 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.
Upsets in May/June don't count
The Qualifiers restore the natural order- look at Longford and Carlow
An upset in July/August  would be something
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 02:52:36 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:23:08 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:40:31 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

Quote
There have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on June 25, 2018, 03:41:12 PM
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2018/0625/973011-gaa-president-horan-ill-look-at-a-tier-2-championship/

Who could blame him after the series of one sided games this weekend.  I stopped watching both the Munster and Leinster final and should have followed suit for the ulster borefest...

There have been so many upsets this year that still pushing the idea of a second tier takes some seriously blinkered vision.

Various different bald men fighting over a comb does not constitute an upset.

Carlow wouldn’t even have had a chance to hammer Kildare under a two tier system this year. It makes a nonsense of the idea that the gap exsists between 10-32. It’s the top one or two teams and the rest where the meaningful difference exists.

So one then?

???

You said

Quote
There have been so many upsets this year

But the only example you can provide is one game in Leinster

The only other one that springs to mind is Fermanagh V Monaghan, but in a two tier championship based on next years league positions, they both would be top 16  teams

Wow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 03:45:28 PM
Great argument.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 03:53:59 PM
On Sunday, one of Horan's predecessors Sean Kelly aired his desire to address the huge imbalance within the provinces in the wake of final cakewalks for Kerry and Dublin against Cork and Laois respectively.
"Cause for serious worry about the hammerings too many @officialgaa football teams are getting at all inter-county championship levels," Kelly tweeted.
"Grading according to ability, with more than one tier essential.
"Otherwise there will be serious fall off in participation and attendances. Urgent!"
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:13:35 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:22:53 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: blewuporstuffed on June 25, 2018, 04:26:43 PM
3 of the provincial finals were between teams would would all be in the top 16 in a tiered championship (Based on current year league finishing positions). Yet 2 of those finals ended in very one sided results (munster & Ulster).

How will a tiered championship stop those hidings?

I wont eliminate all one sided games, you will always get them occasionally no matter what.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Bord na Mona man on June 25, 2018, 04:27:27 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.
Top tier of 6.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 04:36:56 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on June 25, 2018, 04:46:31 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: westbound on June 25, 2018, 05:01:18 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties

I'm not sure Ross fan, but if people tierred championships to avoid teams getting hammered, it's not going to work.

I can understand the argument that the provincials are unfair, but that's a different argument to the one about setting up tiers.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: trailer on June 25, 2018, 05:02:02 PM
Have 3 tiers as I've said.

would Kerry Cork not be in the same tier?

My argument is we should be trying to improve the counties who are falling behind. Not putting a system in place where the likely outcome is that the gap between top and bottom will bigger.

How do you improve Leitrim or Fermanagh? Honest question. Coaches? Transfer players? Money?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on June 25, 2018, 05:09:54 PM
1 -How do you improve "the counties who are falling behind"?

2 -Do you start with Cork who won 10 Munster U21s in the last 15 years and can't get a decent Senior team out of it
Or do you start with Leitrim who have 30,000 people
Or do you start with Fermanagh, Carlow , Longford who have done reasonably well recently?
Or do you try and make football better in the Hurling Counties
I don't think the hurling counties are the issue. Limerick, Waterford, Wexford don't really care
Galway and Cork are dual and have always had ups and downs
Tipp know thy have work to do

The system doesn't work for Laois and Clare
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on September 19, 2018, 12:45:25 PM
http://www.the42.ie/all-ireland-football-two-tier-championship-john-horan-4242334-Sep2018/

Looks like this idea might be making a comeback.  If they don't change the rules to increase the enjoyment factor for players and spectators it won't make a difference as people won't go to watch the crap that football has become especially if it's for a second tier competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 12:58:45 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/Páidi  O Sé or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: johnnycool on September 19, 2018, 01:05:01 PM
Few neutrals go to games any more anyways so it will only be followers of the 2 Counties playing  anyway.
Putting a tiered 2 Final along with the Senior Final will mean that only a small number of people from the 2 Counties will be able to attend.
Not much fun for Leitrim or Carlow etc - Wonderful to get to the All Ireland Final but only 2,500 ofor them can see it.
For utm_source to have any hope as a stand alone competition it will need to be officially called "All Ireland Senior B or 2 Football Championship" and be held early enough to allow the winners into the last 12 of the main Championship.
Calling it officially the Dermot Earley/Páidi  O Sé or whoever Cup will nearly guarantee it will be a flop.

Tiering works for Camogie and ladies football as the finals are all played on the same showcase day.

I don't think that may be workable for hurling or Football AI finals, but I do think a second tier final could be before an AI semi-final.

Those that removed the CR and Nicy Rackard finals from the AI semi-final spots did hurling in weaker counties a huge disservice and should be ashamed of themselves. Hurling men my arse.

If the same was allowed to happen in a tiered football championship then Horan and Co need their holes booted the length and breadth of the country.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: snoopdog on September 19, 2018, 02:59:44 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:05:24 PM
Nobody ever attended hurling games played by the Louths,  Longfords or Cavans of this world.
I recall a Ros V London Hurling Championship game which took place after we played Cork in football back in 2003.
69 spectators stayed back to watch it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on September 19, 2018, 03:08:01 PM
Down are div 3 next year. So on that basis we would be in a 2nd tier comp. Personally id rather not compete at all. The GAA will run this like the dead rubber 2nd 3rd and 4th string hurling comps that no one attends.
2013 Monaghan were in Div 3 and this summer they managed to reached the last 4 and were inches away from reaching the AI final. Would they have made that type of progress if they played in a 2nd tier comp? i highly doubt it.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 03:19:44 PM
They won Ulster in 2013 didn't they so they'd have been in Tier 1 anyway.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: APM on September 19, 2018, 03:25:02 PM
How does the second tier resolve the shite that is the Leinster Championship?

The second-tier will just do away with mismatches in the qualifiers which aren't televised.  It doesn't do away with the televised mismatches in Leinster. 

Solution.  No Second Tier - stop televising so many games in the Leinster Championship.  And I'm not really joking.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2018, 03:29:08 PM
Football is a total mess. It needs fundamental reform with money the focus.
A second tier may or may not work. It depends on whether or not the GAA is arsed. I think the Feng shui in Croke Park is dreadful.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on September 19, 2018, 04:08:44 PM
In the last 9 years teams that played Division 4 have played 182 championship games.

They have won just 2 games against Division 1 opposition and 6 games against Division 2 opposition.

A second tier championship won't magically solve the problems of these lowest tier counties, but it could at least lead to a situation where they get an increased number of competitive games.

This year the margins in the 16 games that Division 4 teams lost were (in points) 27, 23, 18, 18, 14, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 10, 8, 7, 5

10 out of these 16 games were home games for the Division 4 teams - the rule about Division 3 and Division 4 teams getting home advantage in the qualifiers, didn't seem to have much of an affect in helping with the scoreline the margins in these 10 games were 27, 23, 18, 14, 14, 13, 10, 10, 5

Maybe teams and players in Division 4 are grand and content with the current situation but the current situation seems a long way from ideal to my mind.





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 05:10:41 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 PM
What's your alternative?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: RadioGAAGAA on September 19, 2018, 08:43:07 PM
Hows the Tommy Murphy cup doing again?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 19, 2018, 10:33:02 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sid waddell on September 19, 2018, 10:53:43 PM
Flogging a dead horse. County boundaries are not, and never have been, an appropriate way of sectioning players into teams. The County system is used in England for Cricket, but movement is allowed in and out of the county so that the County can be competitive. Not here. You're stuck with your population and player base and that closed door policy will ensure that the weak can never prosper. Basically, the county system is a complete sham, but ironically enough, the GAA use it as their USP.
Maybe you could have county amalgamations or franchises?

Galway and Mayo could merge to become "Galwayo".
Cork and Kerry could merge to become become "Cerry", or maybe "Kork", or maybe even "Corkerry".
Tyrone and Derry would merge to become "Tyrone". If the Derry people objected they could merge with London instead.

Then knock a load of drive through counties together to form the BMW Region. Would be a handy sponsorship tie in there and all.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on September 19, 2018, 11:06:48 PM
What's your alternative?

No point even discussing it. As a Roscommon native, you should be happy to take whatever Galway and Mayo don't want. Be grateful that you get the odd bite. I reached an all time low sitting in front of Dublin fans clapping our scores and being genuinely surprised that we had "one or two who could play a bit". Best to get us into a lower tier competition and stop cluttering up the place.

In a forum filled with weak attempts at trolling (that the posters appear to think are brilliantly constructed rouses) this has to be one of the more embarassing efforts.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: High Fielder on September 20, 2018, 08:30:12 AM
Trolling? Me? You have over 15,000 posts. This forum is your life
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on September 29, 2018, 10:38:50 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/possibility-of-success-needs-to-be-part-of-the-intercounty-contract-1.3644895?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 08:52:09 AM
Run off the league. 1st plays 32nd, 2nd plays 31st and so on.
If you lose you go into a secondary competition. If you win you continue in AI championship.
Once you lose for 2nd time you are out of either competition. Knock out all the way.

Every county gets at least two competitive games
More emphasis on league, especially later games.
Does away with meaningless inter provincial championships
There will be the odd scalp which will still give that bit of romance to the thing.

(apologies if this has already been suggested. Haven't read any previous posts)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyHarp on October 03, 2018, 09:07:53 AM
Run off the league. 1st plays 32nd, 2nd plays 31st and so on.
If you lose you go into a secondary competition. If you win you continue in AI championship.
Once you lose for 2nd time you are out of either competition. Knock out all the way.

Every county gets at least two competitive games
More emphasis on league, especially later games.
Does away with meaningless inter provincial championships
There will be the odd scalp which will still give that bit of romance to the thing.

(apologies if this has already been suggested. Haven't read any previous posts)

Can't wait for Dublin v London in round 1.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 09:26:49 AM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 01:20:26 PM
So be it.

Should have said - after round 1 its open draw  :)

This might have some support, I would modify by having top 8 automatically into tier 1 and bottom 8 into tier 2, the round 1 games would then be essentially div 2 v div 3 which should provide some close games...
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 03, 2018, 02:07:14 PM
All the Div 2 and Div3 teams would be playing each other in Rd1 anyway given their league positions.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: sligoman2 on October 03, 2018, 05:46:54 PM
Correct you just avoid the div 4 v div 1 which would not be entertaining at all
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 03, 2018, 06:22:28 PM
Limerick Manager in favour of 2nd Tier

Quote
“I know there are people who don’t agree with a two-tier championship but football is now the only sport under the Gaelic Games banner which doesn’t have a tiered system. There are tiers in hurling, camogie, and ladies football. It’s time football went that way too,” said Lee.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/limerick-boss-lee-supports-second-tier-championship-871449.html

Benji Whelan the new Waterford manager also said it was worth looking at.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/gaa/new-deise-boss-whelan-open-to-secondary-competition-872104.html

Ciaran Deely the London manager has spoken out in favour of it before.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BIGONE on October 04, 2018, 04:17:04 PM
May be a few dead rubber games in round 1 but no doubt an odd shock also. IMO the way forward ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 18, 2018, 04:06:11 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Owenmoresider on October 18, 2018, 04:43:36 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.
It's bad enough doing that as it is, but in a Tier 2 competition too? What would they call it like, the "Not-so-super 8's"?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 06:43:18 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/thats-the-one-that-mightnt-make-it-through-toms-s-thinks-one-new-football-rule-change-might-run-into-problems-37433713.html

Quote
Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship

Martin Breheny

October 18 2018 2:30 AM

Wicklow are leading a campaign for the introduction of a Tier 2 football championship for 16 counties, which would spell the end of the current format where all counties beaten in the provincial series re-enter the All-Ireland race via the qualifiers.

It comes following a discussion at Central Council last month where there was unanimous agreement that the Tier 2 option should be explored. Wicklow's plan proposes that Division 3 and 4 counties drop out of All-Ireland contention unless they reach their provincial final. Instead, they would play in a Tier 2 championship, with the semi-finals and final played in Croke Park as curtain-raisers to the Sam Maguire equivalents.

If Division 3 or 4 counties reach provincial finals - as Fermanagh and Laois did this year - they would continue in the All-Ireland race.

Wicklow are proposing that a 'Super 8s' system, which replaced the All-Ireland quarter-finals this year, also apply in Tier 2.

"Bringing in a Tier 2 championship would provide welcome light at the end of the tunnel for Division 3 and 4 counties. The new competition would give them something to aim at with a chance of winning and would also and give them a chance of playing in Croke Park on the biggest days," said Martin Coleman, Wicklow's Central Council representative.

"The important thing is that every county gets to play in their own provincial championship. There's no change there.

"The new competition would have to be promoted and marketed. There's no point running it unless it's sold as an important competition designed to give Division 3 and 4 counties something to aim at," said Coleman.

More talk of Tier 2.

This idea or some variation has to come in soon. Great idea from wicklow.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 18, 2018, 07:16:08 PM
Playing a Tier 2 Final with the main Final will mean the participants getting about 2,000 tickets each!!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Ball Hopper on October 18, 2018, 08:01:03 PM
Tier 2 final the night before the final, with tickets to the final for both panels.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 18, 2018, 08:17:35 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it’s no surprise to see that hasn’t changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 18, 2018, 09:43:40 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it’s no surprise to see that hasn’t changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,

Except for all the bits where it’s completely different.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 18, 2018, 09:44:56 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it’s no surprise to see that hasn’t changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their prospal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup,


Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 10:12:58 AM
I'm cool with it but if I'm totally honest with myself as a mayo supporter I wouldn't be as keen if we were to drop outside the top tier , so my conclusion is it's up to the counties that would be effected . The top eight counties should have no say
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 10:48:59 AM
Two headlines beside each other in yesterday's Indo

Wicklow lead drive for Tier 2 football championship
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-lead-drive-for-tier-2-football-championship-37432662.html

Wicklow champs could face two games in 24 hours
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/wicklow-champs-could-face-two-games-in-24-hours-37432660.html

I smell deflection.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: rosnarun on October 19, 2018, 11:13:51 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 11:34:35 AM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year

HQ are really going to bite for that money-spinning AISF everyone’s been waiting for, Kerry vs. Louth.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 11:44:59 AM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it’s no surprise to see that hasn’t changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 12:49:22 PM
wooly made a good point about a tier 2 competition in that it has to be their manin goal from the beginning of the year rather than something the are relegated to half way though the year.
If the winners could re enter the sam Maguire at sem final stage or something like it it could be a great incentive or bith dinalist promoted for the following year
Last 12 would be the best place for the winners and a place in the Tier 1 the following year no matter where they finish in the NFL. .
I would also suggest the 2 promoted teams from D3 play in the main competition.
Although seeing he/she who knows everything is against it -Congress will never dare to vote for a Tier 2 Championship ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Derry Optimist on October 19, 2018, 01:49:54 PM
 Brilliant suggestion from Wicklow for a well thought out structured second tier All Ireland Championship.One caveat however.It would be important that the poor presentation of a previous attempt at introducing a secondary competition- ie the Tommy Murphy Cup- should not be repeated.This new proposed competition should be played along side the latter  stages of the Sam Maguire  Cup competition and marketed accordingly.All of the 32 counties should be treated equally in terms of opportunity in playing in a meaningful competition with a realistic chance of silverware attained on the biggest stage and biggest occasion of all.The reason why the current league system is so good and so competitive is that all counties are playing at their own level.All Division Three and Division Four league teams deserve the same fair treatment at championship level.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 02:14:41 PM
Wicklow never gave a shît about football before so it’s no surprise to see that hasn’t changed.

How short are GAA attention spans? Their proposal is almost point for point a ressurection of the absolutely squalid failure that was the Tommy Murphy Cup.

You obviously never set foot in baltinglass or rathnew

Similar to how most of Wicklow haven’t darkened the doors at Aughrim, then.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 02:47:19 PM
.Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!
Not many from Fermanagh, Clare, Sligo or Longford wouldn't get to see it in the flesh.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 19, 2018, 03:01:11 PM
Would not it be great to see Fermanagh or Clare play Sligo or Longford  in the second tier final as a curtain raiser to Dublin v Kerry in the Sam Maguire Cup decider?!

The dogs on the street know that it wouldn't work out like that, and instead they'd be playing it in Carrick on Shannon or Mullingar on a Saturday afternoon.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 04:12:43 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 04:52:14 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 05:09:34 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show
Elphin still a noted common sense location ;D
Other possibility depending on scheduling -triple header Minor, U20 and the Tier 2 Finals?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: joemamas on October 19, 2018, 06:42:11 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
 If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 19, 2018, 06:57:04 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

+1

As a general statement I think the GAA does a sh*t job on the weekend of the football final. They could have way more activities two to three days prior to final.

Personally speaking, I have no interest in showing up at 1pm to watch a U17 game when the final itself begins at 3.30.
 If they don't want to have it the evening before (and distribute 5,000 free tickets to the counties involved) then have the U17 final at noon and the second tier final at 1.45 or 2.

U17 final at 12.00, Tier 2 final at 1.45 and senior final at 3.45. Great day out and great viewing on tv also. Win win.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 07:13:50 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 19, 2018, 07:23:25 PM
That's ye tould.
Sure no one will go against the Oracle.....
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: larryin89 on October 19, 2018, 07:29:52 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 19, 2018, 08:04:24 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads won’t turn up for a minor AI final that’s paid for on their ticket, there’s no chance f them coming up a day early or if they’re already up wasting more of their weekend on football than they’re already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isn’t going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 19, 2018, 08:31:04 PM
Well I for one if I was up for all Ireland weekend would definitely attend a B final minor final double header.

You wouldn't so that sums up the gulf in our love of the game
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 19, 2018, 08:51:29 PM
evening before the final along with the minors could be a good show

That's a good idea , you'd get a lot going to the Sunday game would go along .

Would you fûck.

Some of ye are properly in cloud cuckoo land.

Jeez do you have to be so damn righteous all the time .

All Ireland weekend , you meet up with people on a sat afternoon , grub, drinks , some head out to kilmacud for the sevens . Having a game to go to on the sat evening would definitely appeal to me . It would break up the day/night too

Lads won’t turn up for a minor AI final that’s paid for on their ticket, there’s no chance f them coming up a day early or if they’re already up wasting more of their weekend on football than they’re already.

Second rate football in a second rate completion isn’t going to ever be sellable to casual supporters.

Yup, very true.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 20, 2018, 10:58:17 PM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: tintin25 on October 21, 2018, 08:23:29 AM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these ‘middle of the road’ counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  It’s one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that I’ve already named...I’d be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a ‘B’ competition.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 21, 2018, 08:34:14 AM
This B competition. How on earth are the powers that be divide the middle of the road counties into the A and B competitions? Let's say that is what happens if this scenario comes to pass and Derry, lets say wins the B competition and are still in the bottom 2 divisions. Do they stay in the B competition or  go up to the A competition the season afterwards?

I used Derry as an example because surely they will be promoted to Division 3 next year.

This is pretty much the issue for me, when it comes to these ‘middle of the road’ counties who have flitted in/out of the top 16 in recent years but who traditionally would have in/around middle to top bracket.  Teams like Armagh, Derry, Meath, Fermanagh, Sligo etc....all major football counties where hurling plays second fiddle.  It’s one thing getting the likes of Wicklow ( always in lower bracket) to sign up and the likes of Waterford (again always in lower bracket and first love is Hurling), but the problem is selling it to counties similar to that I’ve already named...I’d be fairly certain that fans of same would have no interest in watching their county in a ‘B’ competition.

I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 11:07:54 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 11:22:48 AM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 11:48:52 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 21, 2018, 12:05:31 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:25:51 PM

This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

For some reason you deleted this part of my post. Why did you do that?

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
Leitrim should be winning All Irelands after 120 years of playing top teams in Connacht and big teams from other Provinces on the Qualifiers.
Or is it just money they need like the Dublin hurlers.

For the benefit of Northerners I'd better put in one of these ::)

We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 12:46:34 PM
I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

Or instead of killing Gaelic football in all these counties, why don't we look at the recent past when the football championship was competitive and what changed that.
The Leinster championship is a great example. In 2004 Westmeath won it, in 2003 Laois won it. In the decade before it was won by Kildare, Meath, Offaly and yes Dublin. It was open, competitive and exciting. Then Dublin had millions of euro pumped into them and the Leinster championship was destroyed, it's now dead.
The same thing is happening at All Ireland level. Dublin are murdering the competition and the only counties who can come anywhere close are those with money.
Why should all the 'weaker' counties be punished because of the financial doping of others? There's those who say something similar to 'why drag the best down, it's up to the others to catch up'. Well let me give you an analogy that explains this.
I'm going to use cycling. Lance Armstrong was at the top of that sport, 7 Tour De France titles. He was doped to the eyeballs, in order to try to catch him, others doped themselves to the gills also. That is where we're at in Gaelic football. Dublin are Lance Armstrong and there's a few counties trying to keep up but they don't have access to the best drugs.
In cycling they attempted to clean it up. The speed cyclists were going up mountains slowed, the standard got worse but it was a fair competition. That's what we have to do in Gaelic football. Try to rid us of the dopers and let us have a fair competition once more.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 12:49:56 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 01:18:12 PM
Ok so how much do you think Leitrim should get and how soon will they be winning Sam?

You forgot to answer these questions for some reason.

We better kick all counties with a small population out so. Monaghan only have 60,000 people. Time to ignore anything they've won recently and boot them into the losers league. What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 21, 2018, 02:27:00 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 21, 2018, 02:45:05 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

I've shortened the quote to make it easier for you:

What's the population limit? Everyone under 100,000 gets kicked out?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Syferus on October 21, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
No question there just you ranting about something that hadn't been proposed by anyone.
Now how much money do Leitrim need to win Sam?

Why are you trying your hardest to set up the strawman of winning an AI being the gauge of success in the championship?

Also giving the super-province team of Dublin exists you could easily replace Leitrim with Kerry or Mayo and it would apply just as well. Which ironically makes the case for fixing the finances first before any childish, attention deficit induced attempts at format change are attempted.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:13:19 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.

If Longford or Carlow have to play in a b c'ship because they can't compete with the likes of dublin , what's the purpose of playing in Leinster where they have to meet same.

I was actually thinking about the Leinster turkey shoot whilst I was typing. Maybe trying to find some middle ground initially and not going for a seismic shift.

The provincials have been seriously devalued since 2001.  If there was a tiered system the provincials would become utterly meaningless. Playing them would become a token gesture.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 21, 2018, 04:18:36 PM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.


This kind of thinking is prevalent and short sighted, and then you say counties need to learn and work harder?? La La land. The vast majority of counties haven't a snowballs chance in hell of winning Sam regardless of how hard they work or how much they learn. Keep the provencials and also have a tiered championship which will allow the minnows a snowballs chance

Why keep provincials though.


The real reason for keeping the provincial championship is because once you get rid of them, then the need for the provincial councils pretty much disappears.
Far too many GAA committee men would be out of a job if the provincial councils were done away with.
Instead the provincial councils will remain until the sun burns out.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: BennyCake on October 21, 2018, 04:27:46 PM
There's more to a provincial council than the senior county c'ship. It's the cash cow but it's only 5 or 6 matches a year
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:46:13 AM
I totally disagree. At this moment in time a B competition is exactly where derry belong. I’d much rather see us playing in a B semifinal and final than being stuffed by tyrone, monaghan and donegal who are way better than us at the moment. There’s no fun in going into games knowing a 10 point plus defeat is the inevitable outcome.

This is the kind of thinking that is prevalent in many discussions currently on our games. It's extremely short sighted and will have major effects on the strength of Gaelic Games in many counties. Yes Derry are struggling right now but it wasn't that long ago when they were at a much higher level. Throwing them into a b competition will not make it any easier to make a recovery. It will make it far harder!
Unless counties make a quick escape from the losers league, they will get trapped in mediocrity with no chance of breaking free. How do teams or individuals get better? They push themselves against superior opposition, learn from it, work harder and try to reach that superior level. In the losers league, that's going to be impossible. The counties in the A competition will push further ahead.
Added to this, the interest in the losers league will be minimal. Supporters won't attend these matches, players will drop off county panels, it will kill Gaelic Football in the counties who've been deemed an inconvenience to the elites.

We know from looking at hurling that this strategy will not work. We also know what will work from looking at hurling! Dublin were minnows in the Leinster hurling championship, never mind at All Ireland level. Huge investment went into that county and they went on to win a provincial championship, a national league and become contenders for an All Ireland. This is what works. You invest in counties with a strategic plan and officers in place to oversee it.
This is what the 'weaker' counties should be pushing for. Stand together and fight for equal funding and fairness in our association. Not meakly surrender to their wishes of having an elite game without the riff raff.
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 04:43:57 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 22, 2018, 04:55:03 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?

Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 06:18:31 PM
Would be an improvement on the 1 team championship we currently have

Your solution is to boot counties into the losers league and magically those left will make the top tier competitive? Absolute nonsense.

Here's a snippet of the plan that will save Gaelic Games:

1. Split Dublin into 4
2. Employ Strategic Development officers for all counties
3. Draw up development plans needed to improve Gaelic football and hurling in all counties
4. Employ full time coaches and other development officers to implement the plan for each county
5. Finance each county with the resources needed to implement these plans
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 07:45:12 PM
Does your County not have an Intermediate or Junior championship then?
Do you lump all clubs into the Senior championship?
Every club in Division 1, no losers leagues!

Am, there is a junior championship at inter county level. I'm a bit embarrassed for you.

Are people just happy to throw counties out of the top tier? Are they an inconvenience? How do you think they will ever recover playing teams at a lower standard year on year? Will you be happy when this inevitably leads to a 6 team top tier championship?
No need to be embarrassed, you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
The Inter County one, which has been done away with on Ulster was for players from non-senior clubs to get a chance to play at a higher level. It is not the best team from that County competing at a suitable level.
 At club level teams are graded to give them a chance to play teams at a similar level. I would say there were not too many teams which lifted Intermediate or Junior championship s yesterday who thought they were competing in a losers league. They worked hard and saw it as a reward for their hard work and a chance to step up and test themselves at the next level.

You got to walk before you can run. If a County can’t walk they should be leaving to do that first.

I wouldn’t expect Tyrone to compete for the Liam McCarthy nor Tattyreagh to compete for the Andy Merrigan.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 09:54:22 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.

Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 22, 2018, 10:02:38 PM
Actually that's even more embarrassing, the irony completely passed you by.

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being “ironic” when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 22, 2018, 11:17:54 PM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being “ironic” when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 07:31:22 AM
You may explain it to me Allanis.

Were you being “ironic” when you used InterCounty junior football as your response to my point about how grading works in every other level of football and hurling?

I even quoted the irony for you:

you are comparing Apples and Oranges.
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 05:59:43 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 06:38:22 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: themac_23 on October 23, 2018, 06:58:38 PM
if keeping the Provincial championships is so important, do away with the likes of McKenna cup, start the leagues earlier and then have the Provincial championships as a stand alone competition. Run it off over a few weeks, ie no more of the no overlapping games, no reason why for example, in ulster the 4 quarter finals cant be played over one weekend, week break then semis week break then final. all run off in a few condensed weeks then the Stand alone All Irelands can start.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 23, 2018, 08:23:35 PM
http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format/
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: LeoMc on October 23, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 23, 2018, 08:35:08 PM
Ah I get you, you think IC football is special, different from every other competition including hurling. Differing levels is OK for everything else, makes for good competition and gives teams a pathway to improve but it would ruin IC football?

You've already embarrassed yourself by forgetting about the inter county junior championship, now you're forgetting the Tommy Murphy Cup and various other B championships which have been tried and failed.
No one wants it and everyone wants more teams competing in hurling! Basically you're talking nonsense. It's already been shown in hurling that these loser league competitions don't work, counties will just stay at their level. There's no recovery, it's just guaranteeing these counties will never reach the top tier.
Added to the fact that they are treated like joke competitions. How many Joe McDonagh Cup games did you see this year on the Sunday Game? They got no coverage. It would be the same for the losers league in football. So it will have no exposure, no crowds, players will drop away, young players from these counties would play other sports. A complete disaster basically.
Anyone advocating the 2 tier competition is either an elitist from one of the big counties who're inconvenienced by the 'minnows' or a complete idiot. Either way, they should be told to cop themselves on.
The solution is there, it's time to get on with it, fund each county fairly.

Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people weren’t even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:20:58 PM
And the following 4 All Irelands will be won by Carlow, Fermanagh, Longford and Leitrim.....just like it used to be in the good old days ::).

Nothing was said about All Ireland's. Carlow getting to a Leinster semi final this year meant something to them. Any match in the losers league would be meaningless.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:22:20 PM
You are a wile man for feeling embarrassed. No need. It is an anonymous forum. Neither the Junior nor the Tommy Murphy are true B competitions.The Tommy Murphy was a secondary competition for teams beaten in the primary competition.
A proper 2 tier championship would have teams competing in the appropriate grade only, just like championships up and down the Country.

I've already blasted the losers league out of the water. It would have disastrous results for the counties thrown into it.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: priceyreilly on October 23, 2018, 10:48:55 PM
Have any of the hurling teams from the lower tiers ever been competitive at a higher level? Have they ever had large crowds at their games or had games shown on tv? They have a lot more more coverage now on tv, radio and in the papers than those counties had 20 or 30 years ago when most people weren’t even aware they had hurling teams. Also I know for a fact that the players from many of the lower tier hurling counties are absolutely delighted with the new structures because it gives them a chance/hopeto play in a big game in croke park. I know one lad from donegal who cherishes his all ireland medal and to him it means as much as a liam mccarthy medal. Football has to go the same way in terms of tiers (at least 2), otherwise more than half the counties will continue to lose interest.

That's all the Donegal's etc have in hurling, why do you want football to become a minority sport in many counties? That's what will happen. Hurling needs more teams to become competitive, there's people actually advocating that we make more counties uncompetitive in football. There'd be no returning from that.

Let me repeat what works and what will actually improve the state of Gaelic Football. Antrim, Laois, Westmeath and Dublin were all around the same level in hurling in the early 2000's. Antrim, Laois and Westmeath continued on as normal. Entering the provincial championships, hopping around various league formats and championship formats including these magical tiered championships. They have never been able to reach the top tier, in fact, it could be said that they've gone backwards, especially Antrim and Laois.
The other county I mentioned was Dublin. They lost to Laois by 4 goals in 2005, they lost to Westmeath in 2006, they were generally getting whippings of teams like Offaly around this time, they were getting a couple of hundred people attending their matches. They were minnows in the same way that many counties in football are now.
As has been well documented by now, Bertie and co granted Dublin GAA millions and their standards completely changed. It obviously started with underage improvements and success and then it grew into senior success. They are now a top tier team. They are competitive. Investing in their structures has transformed them.
Financing counties is the only route that we can take. It's the only hope of making them competitive. It works. The template is there.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 24, 2018, 03:51:45 PM

Quote
Emlyn Mulligan hoping for new Championship format
Saturday 20 October 2018
 
By Cian O'Connell

Leitrim footballer Emlyn Mulligan is hopeful a Second Tier Championship will be introduced soon.

Even though Leitrim featured in four matches this summer Mulligan believes a new format would aid developing counties significantly.

"Yeah, it would definitely appeal to me," Mulligan says. "We're sitting idle a long time now since June.

"I did a few media gigs at the Super 8s and it was great watching on at the games but at the same time, regardless of the level I'd love to be out there playing again in some sort of a competition. Because we're not improving. In the last three years we've drawn Roscommon in the draw.

"Them lads were playing in the Super 8s regardless of whether they were getting hammered or not they're still getting games against massive teams. Whereas we can see the progression we got even by beating Louth, we put it up to Monaghan for periods of the game. If you had another two or three games in a different competition it's going to bring you on naturally.

"There's players there from bigger counties, the likes of Dublin, that have probably played more Championship games in a year than even myself has played throughout my career. When you're looking back on that basis, games are the only way you're going to improve. The more games the better is the way I look at it."

Does Mulligan feel that a different format is imminent? "You'd hope it is," Mulligan responds. "In fairness, you say it's a big chance and it is surely.

"The Super 8s came around and you're looking at them enforcing these new rules. It doesn't take them that long to make some changes. This is one of the biggest problems at the minute - players sitting idle since the start of June and watching on as other counties are playing in different competitions and now the Super 8s are there. I just believe there should be another system, whether they change the structure of the Championship I don't know.

"Be it that there's three groups of eight or whatever it maybe, and they're ran alongside each other and there's a final in Croke Park. That's what lads dream of. I've never played in Croke Park, but that's what you aspire to do to get there.

"Regardless of what way you get there at this stage, I just want to be up there and you want to be there in the middle of August still playing county football."

Mulligan doesn't think that a lot of players and other counties are against trialling a fresh approach. "I know you have a man across there from Carlow (Paul Broderick), they've a totally different opinion on it and you can understand," Mulligan accepts.

"I think the likes of their wins last year or even ours against Louth, I just personally think they're covering the cracks to be honest. If you go through other counties and how many hammerings they've got throughout their time. It's covering over cracks. "You've one great success story and you've 10 behind it and it's just covering up for the GAA. It's easy for Turlough O'Brien or even our own managers coming out and saying, 'It's great.' But you have to be realistic.

"In the Connacht championship I've only one victory ever in my 11 years playing if you take London and New York out of it. That's against Sligo in 2011. You're playing that long you'd have hoped you would have had a bit more playing teams at your own level.

"But we're in Connacht with three teams that are competing in Division 1, it's very hard for us to up our game three divisions come Championship day. "You'll be talking about it for a long time but you just hope someone maybe can just say, 'Right this has to be done' and people get in behind it to get good support from county managers more so than anyone else."

A decade on the inter-county beat with Leitrim Mulligan still thoroughly enjoys the game. "I love it," Mulligan admits. "I do love it. I suppose I've been lucky enough to get gigs like this to come up to. I've got a lot out of the game. I've always played for Leitrim trying to make them a better team and trying to push them on for younger lads that want to play for Leitrim. I always think people look down on us.

"My biggest pet hate is reading articles where they compare Dublin to Leitrim and it's always Leitrim. That really annoys me. I'm like, why not compare it to Wicklow? Why not compare it to Carlow? We're actually fine in Leitrim. We've money, we're happy out, we're well looked after, we don't want for anything, we know no better. But it's always 'poor Leitrim.'

"I always give off the perception that we need to change this. It's a mentality outside of Leitrim where young lads are going to college up in UCD or DCU and I can guarantee to go to a Sigerson trial and are asked where they're from. They say Leitrim and they won't look at you as eagerly as a lad that's playing with St Vincent's in Dublin.

"But it's up to us to change that. You see the perspective now of Carlow, it's changed completely. That's what we're trying to aim for and strive for. "But again, we just need to have our best players there and unfortunately year in year out, it's a struggle to get them all to commit.

"But hopefully Terry (Hyland) will be the man in the middle that can get them all to pull together for the year ahead."

The arrival of former Cavan manager Terry Hyland is a boost according to Mulligan. "I've been speaking to him a few times, he seems to have gotten a decent backroom team into place," Mulligan states.

"Jason Reilly is in as coach by all accounts, chatting to Cavan people he seems to be very good and he was a great footballer himself.

"There's a few other strong candidates in there that'll give him a boost. Chatting to a few of the lads, a lot of them are excited about going back. The biggest thing for us is keeping 99% of players we had last year and bring in a couple extra that maybe walked away last year or the year before.

"There's confidence around the county. As I said, Division Four is our target and hopefully Terry will bring in that experience he's had. He brought Cavan from, I think, Division Three to Division One so he knows the ins and outs of how it's done. Looking forward to getting at it again. Hard to believe it's come back around already at this stage of the year.

"I'm sure Terry will be getting us to put the head down over the next couple of weeks and trying to put a system in place to get us ready for the National League at the end of January."

http://www.gaa.ie/search/crawl/news/emlyn-mulligan-hoping-for-new-championship-format
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2018, 11:16:18 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 25, 2018, 05:34:06 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Quote
Interestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 25, 2018, 05:53:48 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote
Also the April club month looks like a total failure
As was ever going to be the case.
Quote
leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.
It's clubs and their delegates who make the decisions in each county.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 25, 2018, 07:54:36 PM


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.

Quote

Lol, I’m sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 09:31:24 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/paul-flynn-most-players-would-support-move-to-tiered-football-championship-1.3674502?mode=amp

The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Quote
Interestingly, almost 60 per cent of football members surveyed told us they would support a change to a tiered football championship.

Also the April club month looks like a total failure - leaving it up to the county boards to do the right thing on their own was daft in the extreme.

Very interesting indeed, I wonder what the % would have been even 2 years ago?? Alot less I'd say




The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Listen up Leitrim and Wicklow etc etc etc etc , get the fingers out and train a bit harder ffs
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 11:57:22 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/secondtier-championship-set-for-2020-introduction-37460412.html
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: five points on October 26, 2018, 12:01:33 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, I’m sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps. 
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 26, 2018, 12:29:51 PM
Quote
Quote


The big stat from that piece is the number of intercounty players in favour of a tiered football championship.

Of course they are. Lots of lads shy away from hard work.


Quote

Lol, I’m sure antrim and waterford would have a great chance of beating dublin and kerry if they just worked a bit harder. Hilarious.

Two years ago, you'd have included Carlow in that. Now they're dead set against a tiered championship because they've got off their arses in the meantime and taken several notable scalps.

Of course a manager is gonna come out as being against it and beat his chest after a couple of championship wins and it's fresh in the memory. It's a message to his players that they can compete. In reality, history shows they can't and don't. In a 2nd tier, who knows
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Orchard park on October 26, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:20:21 PM
And only knock out games!!
I'd say 10 would have folded at this stage.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: lenny on October 26, 2018, 01:23:51 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is

Ah but they just need to get off their arses and work harder. I can just see Ardmore taking on slaughtneil in Derry.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Blowitupref on October 26, 2018, 01:50:02 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.

Wasn't that easy for them lets be fair.

Only 4 years ago they finished last in Div 4 and when you are that low you aren't expected to take any scalps.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Esmarelda on October 26, 2018, 04:33:43 PM
So it looks like a B Championship. I've always thought that the players from the lower tier's opinion is the most important so so be it.

I find it very strange that two of the worst teams in the country are looking forward to a championship where (presumably) they'll be up against teams from the top half of Division 3. But let's wait and see what's put forward.
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
If they only took my proposal of Senior, Intermediate and Junior........
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed ‘60pc of football members now supporting a change’, Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

“If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no,” he told the Irish Independent. “But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

“No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

“It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway.”
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: JoG2 on October 31, 2018, 03:46:22 PM
Pete McGrath


“Obviously I’d need to see the blueprint whenever it comes out. They have to be smart about this.

“We all know there’d be a stigma attached to teams who are able to play only in a second or third tier.

“If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

“Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn’t win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic.”

Having departed Fermanagh after expressions of dressing room unrest, McGrath knows that keeping the players happy is key to any success:

“There would still be players who, whenever their county drops out of the main competition, would say ‘I’m not committing to anything else, I’ve more to do with my time’.

“I don’t know what the reaction would be, but we all know that mind-set is there. I was surprised to read that figure of 60 per cent [in favour of a change] because prior to that any players asked had said ‘no’.

“Even those from smaller counties were adamant that they don’t want to play in anything that’s regarded as ‘second tier’ or however it’s described.

“That also means 40 per cent weren’t keen on change, and you have to look at that too.”
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Rossfan on October 31, 2018, 04:21:14 PM
Pete McGrath




“If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

“Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn’t win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic.”



They already had that Pete  - Tommy Murphy Cup ;)
Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: twohands!!! on October 31, 2018, 10:37:51 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed ‘60pc of football members now supporting a change’, Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

“If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no,” he told the Irish Independent. “But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

“No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

“It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway.”

With respect I think Broderick is probably  placing a bit too much emphasis on Carlow's results in 2018 in terms of the wins over Louth and Kildare.
It's worth remembering that Louth played 10 games between league and championship and won 1 - against London; while Kildare played 15 and won 4 - Derry, Longford, Mayo and Fermanagh)
So while they had two wins against top 16 opposition, both of those teams had poor (if not miserable) seasons, with a combined record of played 25 won 5.
These stats are even a bit deceptive in that the loss to Carlow was a nadir for Kildare and they won their 4 games after this and Louth won their 1 game after this, so the record of the two teams Carlow beat was played 14 lost 14 for the year when Carlow played them.

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.

Teams Carlow have beaten in the championship from 2009 onwards (2008 was the last year of the Tommy Murphy Cup)
2018   Louth - relegated from Division 2
2018   Kildare - relegated from Division 1
2017   Wexford - promoted from Division 4
2017   London - bottom of Division 4
2017   Leitrim - 5th in Division 4
2016   Wicklow - 5th in Division 4
2014   Waterford - 5th in Division 4
2011   Louth - promoted from Division 3

Teams Carlow have lost to in the championship from 2009 onwards
2018   Laois
2018   Tyrone
2017   Dublin
2017   Monaghan
2016   Louth
2016   Cavan
2015   Laois
2015   Longford
2014   Meath
2014   Clare
2013   Westmeath
2013   Laois
2012   Meath
2012   Laois
2011   Wexford
2011   Antrim
2010   Wicklow
2010   Derry
2009   Louth
2009   Donegal





Title: Re: Would you be in favour of a second tier?
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 11:00:27 PM

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.
Lost convincingly in the end but you shouldn't forget what happened during those games which was competitive displays and a few Div 2 teams haven't managed to do that against those teams.

Dublin 0-10 Carlow 0-6 after 50mins then Brendan Murphy was sent off
Carlow 1-6 Monaghan 0-10 after 65 mins then a goal from Fintan Kelly



The point Broderick was making is he and his team mates would prefer to test themselves against top sides where the interest and enthusiasm from the public is high than playing in a 2nd tier championship.