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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: deiseach on September 07, 2014, 11:36:16 AM

Title: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 07, 2014, 11:36:16 AM
Seeing as the only thread on this so far has been about the rivalry between a soccer club and its dead rivals, I thought I'd start one. Seems to be me that Alex Salmond's tactic of a long campaign has worked out as he would have hoped, i.e. to give the maximum opportunity for visibility of the more unpalatable sections of the Unionist camp, most obviously the Tories but also the Protestant supremacists who left Scotland centuries ago, thus driving the waverers into the Yes camp. Even if there is a small majority against independence, the wedge between Scotland and England has been driven ever deeper. Maith an fear, as they say in na h-Eileanan Siar.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: T Fearon on September 07, 2014, 12:17:04 PM
Yes indeed would that nationalist Ireland,North or South  produced such a visionary leader.I see Nigel Farage is also planning a big No Rally, that should further push the hitherto undecided into the Yes Camp in big numbers.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 07, 2014, 12:26:35 PM
Spot on about the limitations of Irish leaders. Now that the polls are moving against them perhaps the OO will have a few more marches.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: stew on September 07, 2014, 12:31:01 PM
The empire is dead.Long live the dead empire!!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Tony Baloney on September 07, 2014, 01:28:10 PM
Salmond is a pretty risible character so he would me think twice.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 07, 2014, 01:42:53 PM
"I don't like to see small islands partitioned" - George Galloway.

Discuss.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: easytiger95 on September 07, 2014, 01:53:20 PM
Scotland's independence maybe a good thing for Scots - but it could mean a permanent rightwing majority in Westminster as the Scottish labour party MPs were a huge bulwark against the Tories in the Commons. If Cameron didn't have to live with the disgrace of being the PM that lost Scotland, he'd be rubbing his hands at Labour's plight. It's no surprise Darling and Brown are so gung ho No. And it is also very interesting that Farage is spouting today that he was asked to meet Murdoch this week.

I take it that they stay in the Commonwealth, with Her Maj still head of state? Very interesting times indeed.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 07, 2014, 02:35:55 PM
Scotland's independence maybe a good thing for Scots - but it could mean a permanent rightwing majority in Westminster as the Scottish labour party MPs were a huge bulwark against the Tories in the Commons. If Cameron didn't have to live with the disgrace of being the PM that lost Scotland, he'd be rubbing his hands at Labour's plight. It's no surprise Darling and Brown are so gung ho No. And it is also very interesting that Farage is spouting today that he was asked to meet Murdoch this week.

I take it that they stay in the Commonwealth, with Her Maj still head of state? Very interesting times indeed.
Yes to Commonwealth and Head of State.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 07, 2014, 06:31:57 PM
Jesus, imagine how strange it will be if it does actually happen. The upheaval will be huge, the long-term implications nearly impossible to guess.

I still don't think it will be a Yes vote, Scottish Nationalism surely couldn't move from the relative periphery to deliver Independence in a few decades, I think when Scots realise it might actually happen they'll have second thoughts, but the panic has surely set in in Government.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 07, 2014, 06:48:47 PM
Scotland's independence maybe a good thing for Scots - but it could mean a permanent rightwing majority in Westminster as the Scottish labour party MPs were a huge bulwark against the Tories in the Commons. If Cameron didn't have to live with the disgrace of being the PM that lost Scotland, he'd be rubbing his hands at Labour's plight. It's no surprise Darling and Brown are so gung ho No. And it is also very interesting that Farage is spouting today that he was asked to meet Murdoch this week.

I take it that they stay in the Commonwealth, with Her Maj still head of state? Very interesting times indeed.
Yes to Commonwealth and Head of State.

I read yesterday that if independence (?) is granted they will campaign to have another referendum on whether or not to retain the monarchy.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: macdanger2 on September 07, 2014, 10:58:30 PM
It will be interesting to see how many people change their mind in the ballot box and take the safe option of voting No
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 07, 2014, 11:26:29 PM
It will be interesting to see how many people change their mind in the ballot box and take the safe option of voting No

The Québec example is often cited, where the "Yes" side was ahead of "No" by about 3%, but on the day the "No" side won by the narrowest of margins, as people chickened out in the polling station.

However, in Québec there was only a modest surge towards "Yes" at the end compared to Scotland.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on September 08, 2014, 01:28:04 AM
Scotland's independence maybe a good thing for Scots - but it could mean a permanent rightwing majority in Westminster as the Scottish labour party MPs were a huge bulwark against the Tories in the Commons. If Cameron didn't have to live with the disgrace of being the PM that lost Scotland, he'd be rubbing his hands at Labour's plight. It's no surprise Darling and Brown are so gung ho No. And it is also very interesting that Farage is spouting today that he was asked to meet Murdoch this week.

I take it that they stay in the Commonwealth, with Her Maj still head of state? Very interesting times indeed.
Yes to Commonwealth and Head of State.

I read yesterday that if independence (?) is granted they will campaign to have another referendum on whether or not to retain the monarchy.

Hmm... I have not heard that before and I've been following the run in fairly closely, sounds like scaremongering... source? Tabloid?

As Irish people we quite easily fall into the trap of looking at this through Irish lens. The English monarchy was imposed on us through warfare and as a result we are opposed to it. However in Scotland that was not the case. Scotland was a monarchy long before English rule and ended up with the same monarch through the laws of secession. As a result Scotland has no real reason to be hostile to the British crown who actually proclaim their Scottish heritage every bit as much as their English.

However if they choose independence in the years following they may decide to move towards a republic viewing a monarch as a nostalgic waste of time and money, or they may decide it is part of their tradition and heritage keep it
 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 08, 2014, 05:09:55 AM
It'd be interesting all right to see if they opt for a republic or stick with the monarchy. Alex Salmond for President!

My sneaking suspicion is that the soft yeses will chicken out on the day and vote no, but it's interesting to see the late surge of the Yes campaign. The likes of Farage are probably helping the Yes boys more than they realise.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 08, 2014, 06:14:19 AM
Return of the House of Stewart? Been watching History of Britain 're-runs on BBC4, interesting stuff.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Aerlik on September 08, 2014, 06:45:06 AM
And it's a Yes from me.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 08, 2014, 08:42:43 AM
Still don't think it'll actually happen as there are too many state agencies and spooks to manipulate things just enough behind the scenes to engineer a No vote. But... I really think I'd die laughing if it did happen. Alba gu bràth! as Mel Gibson would say.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 08, 2014, 09:31:54 AM
Looks like the No camp are crapping themselves.  Offering Scots a raft of (as yet undefined) powers in return for a No vote.  I think ultimately the Yes camp will suffer from the "Shy Tory" effect where people who say they will vote Yes now will vote No when they get to the ballot box.  But if the Yes vote is 40% or over I think it will make independence inevitable in the next 25-30 years.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 08, 2014, 09:33:33 AM
It'll go to the wire. Quebec looked like seceding in 1995 but the no vote won by a whisker.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hereiam on September 08, 2014, 09:39:53 AM
You will see some amount of rubbish printed in the media over the next week or so to scare people into voting no. I agree with Ulick, don't see it happening for the yes vote but it will make a few wealthy men in Scotland a bit more wealthier.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggysego on September 08, 2014, 10:38:08 AM
I can't see Scotland voting Yes on the 18th. Only a 2% lead in the poll and mostly from swinging undecided voters. They'll swing back to No on the day. However, Salmond says it's actually a 5% lead and Mumsnet say it's 4%.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 08, 2014, 10:45:34 AM

As Irish people we quite easily fall into the trap of looking at this through Irish lens. The English monarchy was imposed on us through warfare and as a result we are opposed to it. However in Scotland that was not the case. Scotland was a monarchy long before English rule and ended up with the same monarch through the laws of secession. As a result Scotland has no real reason to be hostile to the British crown who actually proclaim their Scottish heritage every bit as much as their English.

I suspect you mean SUCCESSION  ;)
Hope they vote YES.
Even if they don't anything over 40% is a success for Salmond and if Cameron gives them another load of Autonomy  he is in fact endorsing the Nationalists' argument......
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 08, 2014, 10:50:37 AM
I can't see Scotland voting Yes on the 18th. Only a 2% lead in the poll and mostly from swinging undecided voters. They'll swing back to No on the day. However, Salmond says it's actually a 5% lead and Mumsnet say it's 4%.

In an attempt to swing more votes to the No camp, the British government has bestowed more powers to the devolved Scottish Parliament so Salmond is already in a win-win situation.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 08, 2014, 10:56:11 AM
And in an attempt to make us totally helpless with convulsive laughter they keep on keeping on with the same mistake over and over that only they don't know they're making. For every toffee-nosed Tory they lead up to lecture the Jimmies they knock another percentage point or two off the vote they're trying to promote.

It's a cliché, I know, but they really do seem never to learn.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bcarrier on September 08, 2014, 10:58:06 AM
Rockall here we come.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bcarrier on September 08, 2014, 10:59:02 AM
And in an attempt to make us totally helpless with convulsive laughter they keep on keeping on with the same mistake over and over that only they don't know they're making. For every toffee-nosed Tory they lead up to lecture the Jimmies they knock another percentage point or two off the vote they're trying to promote.

It's a cliché, I know, but they really do seem never to learn.

That is so true.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 08, 2014, 10:59:28 AM
In an attempt to swing more votes to the No camp, the British government has bestowed more powers to the devolved Scottish Parliament so Salmond is already in a win-win situation.

Yes. But the "West Lothian problem" arises, more bits and pieces to Scotland while Westminster remains in its current form is unbalanced and not very stable. In something familiar to us in NI the unionists will concede something appropriate to the last debate, not this one, and then try to row back on it afterwards.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Lecale2 on September 08, 2014, 11:11:13 AM
This could add a couple of % to the YES total.

"THOUSANDS of Orange Order members and supporters from Northern Ireland will travel to Edinburgh next weekend to stand alongside their "Scottish brethren" at a controversial march in support of the Union, it has emerged."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/thousands-of-orange-order-members-to-stand-with-scottish-brethren-in-edinbu.25254357 (http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/thousands-of-orange-order-members-to-stand-with-scottish-brethren-in-edinbu.25254357)

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Bord na Mona man on September 08, 2014, 11:14:08 AM
I had assumed all along that the 'No' vote would win. And if the vote were today, I'd still expect them to shade it.
However the panic that has now set in within the 'No' camp could see them tying them up in knots in the next couple of weeks.
They'll be both begging and pleading and showering with love on one hand. While at the same time haranguing and lecturing - telling the Yes voters what narrow-minded bigots and idiots they are.

It'll be something like Fintan O'Toole telling the voters of North Tipp that they can't be seen as sophisticated, cosmopolitans while they keeping voting for Michael Lowry. And actually expecting them to listen to him!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: haranguerer on September 08, 2014, 12:18:35 PM
Kate and Wills doing their bit...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-29108010
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 08, 2014, 12:47:09 PM
Who gets the oil?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggysego on September 08, 2014, 12:50:28 PM
Who gets the oil?

Scotland, but Cameron is now telling them there is hardly any left, they'll soon run out of money and will crash.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 08, 2014, 01:16:57 PM
Who gets the oil?

Scotland, but Cameron is now telling them there is hardly any left, they'll soon run out of money and will crash.

Not really, all they need to do is reduce their corporate tax rates and the Banking Sector will up sticks to Edinburgh in a jiffy.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 08, 2014, 01:48:58 PM
Who gets the oil?

Scotland, but Cameron is now telling them there is hardly any left, they'll soon run out of money and will crash.


That being the case....I think Connacht should declare independence.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rois on September 08, 2014, 01:54:48 PM
Who gets the oil?

Scotland, but Cameron is now telling them there is hardly any left, they'll soon run out of money and will crash.

Not really, all they need to do is reduce their corporate tax rates and the Banking Sector will up sticks to Edinburgh in a jiffy.
If it's a No from Scotland, it'll significantly significantly enhance our chances here of getting corporation tax devolved.  The decision has been delayed until after this referendum and appears to be entirely dependent on the result in Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 08, 2014, 02:05:13 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/08/england-love-bombing-scotland-no-vote-westminster
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Lecale2 on September 08, 2014, 02:52:07 PM
Prince William has promised to call the baby Jock if the Scots vote no. Even if it's a girl.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 08, 2014, 05:28:02 PM
This should work. High Ulster Protestant culture - burgers, vomit, cider, Lambeg drums - will surely swing it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-orangemen-to-march-in-edinburgh-ahead-of-referendum-1.1921768

Orange Order members from Northern Ireland are set to march in Scotland to demonstrate their support for a No vote in the upcoming independence referendum.

A Belfast-based spokesman for the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland confirmed that Irish Grand Master Edward Stevenson would travel to Edinburgh with other senior Orangemen.


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 08, 2014, 05:33:13 PM
This should work. High Ulster Protestant culture - burgers, vomit, cider, Lambeg drums - will surely swing it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-orangemen-to-march-in-edinburgh-ahead-of-referendum-1.1921768

Orange Order members from Northern Ireland are set to march in Scotland to demonstrate their support for a No vote in the upcoming independence referendum.

A Belfast-based spokesman for the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland confirmed that Irish Grand Master Edward Stevenson would travel to Edinburgh with other senior Orangemen.

It's a definite YES then  ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 08, 2014, 05:42:11 PM
This should work. High Ulster Protestant culture - burgers, vomit, cider, Lambeg drums - will surely swing it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-orangemen-to-march-in-edinburgh-ahead-of-referendum-1.1921768

Orange Order members from Northern Ireland are set to march in Scotland to demonstrate their support for a No vote in the upcoming independence referendum.

A Belfast-based spokesman for the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland confirmed that Irish Grand Master Edward Stevenson would travel to Edinburgh with other senior Orangemen.

I take it the SNP are paying for this.  :D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 08, 2014, 09:08:11 PM
I can't see Scotland voting Yes on the 18th. Only a 2% lead in the poll and mostly from swinging undecided voters. They'll swing back to No on the day. However, Salmond says it's actually a 5% lead and Mumsnet say it's 4%.
Turnout will be a massive factor if the gap is likely to be less than 5%.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 08, 2014, 09:09:01 PM
What would it mean for NI? Would it have any direct implications IF the Scots vote yes. I can't see it happening myself, but just wondering would the Unionists shit themselves or put up more flegs?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 08, 2014, 09:09:46 PM
It will be interesting to see how many people change their mind in the ballot box and take the safe option of voting No

The Québec example is often cited, where the "Yes" side was ahead of "No" by about 3%, but on the day the "No" side won by the narrowest of margins, as people chickened out in the polling station.
Or maybe it was just within the margin of error?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 08, 2014, 09:56:43 PM
What would it mean for NI? Would it have any direct implications IF the Scots vote yes. I can't see it happening myself, but just wondering would the Unionists shit themselves or put up more flegs?
the former , I bet

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/df8e3328-34df-11e4-ba5d-00144feabdc0.html
Electoral outcomes are driven by fundamentals, and the cold truth about the union is that the fundamentals binding it were weakening before Mr Alexander was born 46 years ago. The British empire, existential threats from the continent, Protestantism, the armed forces – the first two of these great adhesives have gone, the last two are not quite what they were. The substance of the union has been thinning out since 1945
The UK is not an immutable fact of nature; it is a human design that can be undesigned when the circumstances that gave rise to it no longer obtain. The break-up of the union would be sad and a practical ordeal that would suck up years of work in both Westminster and Holyrood. But it would not be an aberration. Historical forces make it explicable.


Nigel Dodds and Donaldson are 2 of the greatest lickarses in politics, professing their undying loyalty in every Westminster speech and a Yes vote would take the ground from under them.   
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 08, 2014, 11:39:40 PM
This should work. High Ulster Protestant culture - burgers, vomit, cider, Lambeg drums - will surely swing it

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-orangemen-to-march-in-edinburgh-ahead-of-referendum-1.1921768

Orange Order members from Northern Ireland are set to march in Scotland to demonstrate their support for a No vote in the upcoming independence referendum.

A Belfast-based spokesman for the Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland confirmed that Irish Grand Master Edward Stevenson would travel to Edinburgh with other senior Orangemen.

Maybe they could bring over some of their old "Ulster says NO" banners





Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 09, 2014, 12:40:07 AM
Latest poll gives fractional majority for "no", but most of the don't knows tending "yes".
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/09/scottish-independence-tns-poll-1-per-cent-gap-yes-no

there is some suggestion that the don't knows are women and Labour catholic types, the latter should be encouraged by the OO on Saturday.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 09, 2014, 06:17:34 AM
What would it mean for NI? Would it have any direct implications IF the Scots vote yes. I can't see it happening myself, but just wondering would the Unionists shit themselves or put up more flegs?

I'd say you'll see an upsurge in loyalist violence. They've always been very effective at staying on message and framing their handiwork as being "in retaliation" for whatever the latest republican provocation was, but the truth is loyalist violence has usually surged at times when the union seemed threatened.  Times like Sunningdale, the Anglo Irish Agreement, etc..
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 09, 2014, 08:10:28 AM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Tony Baloney on September 09, 2014, 08:31:59 AM
A Scottish fella in work says while he is all for independence it isn't a straightforward "yes"as he doesn't believe the SNP, and Alex Salmond in particular, are the right people to lead the country.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 09, 2014, 10:53:32 AM
I'm sure they'd still have elections in an Independent Scotland so he could vote for others.
No doubt  with its goal achieved the SNP would have no real reason to exist and would begin to splinter.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Declan on September 09, 2014, 12:58:41 PM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 09, 2014, 02:10:06 PM
Interesting article by Irvine Welsh on the Bella Caledonia blog which probably reflects the outlooks of a fair amount of non-SNP 'yes' supporters.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/

Labour Pains, Labour of Love

Labour: Where Did It All Go Wrong?

by Irvine Welsh

When I think back to how the Scottish independence debate has evolved in terms of my personal journey, I can see it in three distinct phases. The first was best expressed by the bitter and ugly sentiment “it’s all the English’s fault.” This guff was fairly ubiquitously trumpeted when I was a kid, and largely sustained, I believe, by an infantile football mentality. I was always unmoved by this idiocy: nobody was going to tell me that my cousins in Wolverhampton or Aunt in West London were in any way culpable for our circumstances north of the border. In retrospect, the ban on the annual Scotland v England match was the best thing that ever happened to the debate, it helped folk think a little more clearly. When ‘politics’ is mixed up with football, the end result is invariably the ossification of cretinism. This phase left it’s psychological legacy; to this day I find it hard to support the Scottish national team, or, indeed, have any truck with the term ‘nationalism’.

    I’ve been greatly inspired by the post-devolution generation, and their pragmatic thinking on the issue of independence.

I came from a family of trade unionists, and in my youth I was a Labour Party supporter. My political hero was Tony Benn. I recall, with my dad, watching Neil Kinnock in a political broadcast, and, roused by the Welshman’s stirring oratory, I joined the party in my teens. I hated the SNP, regarding them as a divisive force of tartan Tories. I loved Brian Wilson’s attacks on them, in magazines like the West Highland Free Press and the short-lived Seven Days.

For most of my young adult life, I moved between Edinburgh and London. As the 1980’s wore on, I noted how things started to change in Scotland; there was a growing realisation that the problem wasn’t the English, it was our own stupid selves. Whatever our circumstances, they were only existent because we tolerated them. This was what I regard as ‘phase two’ on the evolutionary scale of the Scottish Independence debate. It was progress, for sure, but the downside of it was the self-hating element, which the character Renton identifies with in Trainspotting. Ultimately self-loathing is no more edifying than the scapegoating of others, but in order to make headway it’s probably essential to face up to your own shortcomings, no matter how painful. And this led us to stage three of the debate.

I’ve been greatly inspired by the post-devolution generation, and their pragmatic thinking on the issue of independence. I believe they have enabled an emotionally backward and immature country (as all countries, by definition must be, when they are governed from elsewhere) to grow up and move forward. It’s this generation who have given us phase three of the independence debate: beautiful, wonderful phase three, which says that it doesn’t matter who is to ‘blame’, the important thing is to fix it.

When I was recently back in both Scotland and England, it was instructive to see how generational the independence debate has become and how my own one has split on the issue. There is certainly far less unanimity between us than there is with the smart, educated young people I met in Edinburgh. Almost to a man and woman they were enthusiastically, if critically, on the ‘yes’ side of the discussion. Crucially, the few who demurred seemed very different from the depressed, resentful naysayers of my own generation, in that they were also highly ebullient about the ongoing discourse. This youth represents the new Scotland; they won’t be looking for safe a Labour seat in Westminster, or marching in sectarian parades with flute and pipe bands, and they are equally unexcited by the tartan army-esque see-you-Jimmy buffoonery of kitschy nationalism.

It’s a little painful to report that the representatives of this post-devolution generation were far more impressive than many of my old comrades. Of my motley crew, the ones excited and revitalised by the independence debate are all firmly ‘yes’ advocates. But my ‘no’ friends, all people I respect (and yes, love), were invariably annoyed, scared and even angry, that this debate, this democracy, this real discussion on their own futures was even taking place. When I asked why, what kept coming back was that we should be talking about something else. That they were almost all Labour Party supporters should come as no surprise, nor should it be a shock that the ‘something else’ was usually defined as ‘kicking the Tories out.’ To what end, I would enquire. To build a fairer society, was the invariable reply. So I wondered, sometimes out loud, sometimes not, how exactly they intended to do that. Through Trident? War in Iraq? NHS trusts? Deregulation of the City, with subsequent bailouts after they fucked it up? Through the House of Lords? Or the continuing negation of democracy, and siphonage of the country’s resources to a transnational elite?

It struck me that we, the post-war consensus generations from hippy to punk to post punk to house, have left them, the new breed, this youth engaged and politicised at grass roots level by the independence debate, with absolutely nothing. The trade unions have been debilitated, Labour rebranded as a centre-right conservative party, the welfare state and the NHS destroyed, and with this, a massive redistribution of wealth from everybody to the super rich. And all of this took place on our watch.

    So if the current youth of Scotland, with their free tuition fees and free medicines, have been ‘bought off’ by Salmond, it has been in exactly the same way that I was ‘bought off’ by Bevan.

The delusion by many on the left, that by trying to maintain the United Kingdom (the clue is in the name) they are fighting to preserve some sort of socialist internationalism, is an astonishingly persistent one, representing the ultimate triumph of hope over experience. The UK has always been an imperialist construct, set up to protect and further the interests of the rich. There was a brief period after the Second World War when it sought to be something more. The elites conned people into participating in the bloodbath of WW1 on the promise of ‘homes fit for heroes’ and the ‘patriots’ were rewarded with more slums, a depression, and hunger marches that met with only the indifference and hostility of the UK state. Then, the ordinary folks were shunted back into the line of fire to face the Nazi’s. Something fundamental did happen when we opened Hitler’s death camps at Auschwitz and Dachau, and our collective humanity was stirred. Moreover, people returned in the mood to fight for concessions, and the elites were pragmatically ready to concede them.  So we had the emergence of a post war consensus and the welfare state.

I was a benefactor of that consensus. I took evening classes at the local college for a pound, had my university fees paid, obtained a full student grant, and benefited from universal healthcare. For the social equivalent of me today, making this progress would be impossible without accruing a lifetime of debt and becoming no better than a slave – f**k that bullshit. So if the current youth of Scotland, with their free tuition fees and free medicines, have been ‘bought off’ by Salmond, it has been in exactly the same way that I was ‘bought off’ by Bevan.

All that has now gone, and the Labour Party will not be bringing it back. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were no aberrations; they were the natural progression of a movement that has ‘evolved’ from its radical roots into a centre-right focus group-driven party of power. Now, on a policy level, they chase middle England votes, while lecturing working class people on their ‘duty to vote’ (Labour), in order to ‘keep the Tories out’.

Gordon Brown’s recent book My Scotland, Our Britain on the case for the union, like his critique of Thatcherism, Where There Is Greed, would be highly impressive if this was still 1985, and he himself hadn’t been in power for so much of the time that has passed since it was. Yes, politics is the art of the possible, but the message from the Labour Party to the people, is that in the face of neo-liberalism, nothing is possible – but keep voting for us anyway. Why?  Because, goes the stock reply, ‘we care more than the Tories’. This is true of Labour voters and party members, but it hasn’t been true of the leadership for a long, long time. They don’t seem to care that much that it’s likely that UKIP, the right-wing of the Tory party and the Mail and Sun will set the agenda at the next election. A no vote is therefore a vote to preserve that poisonous dialogue of nationalist politics, with more unwanted racist policies on Europe, immigration and security, foisted onto Scotland.

Our Labour has gone; it probably died when it got rid of Clause Four, the ‘public ownership’ statement, which served as the radical conscience of the party.

An anti-independence argument, repeated in the discussions with my old Labour-supporting pals, is one I’ve consistently heard down the years. It contends that we have to ‘stand alongside our comrades in England.’ I agree wholeheartedly, but fail to get how ‘standing alongside’ somebody involves trudging to the polling booth every five years and sheepishly sending down a cluster of political class lobby-fodder careerists to Westminster, who then continue to preside over the transfer of resources from the rest of us to the super rich. The brutal truth is that we haven’t properly ‘stood alongside’ any English or Welsh comrades since the miners strike of 84-85, because we haven’t been able to – the UK state has made sure of that with its anti-union laws. Yes, the same ones the Labour Party has had plenty of chances to modify or repeal, and let people in their workplaces have a role in our democracy. I recall twelve years later, really ‘standing alongside’ comrades in Liverpool during the dockworkers dispute, to the complete indifference and embarrassment of the Labour Party, who would rather have had everybody just go home. Towards the end of the strike, I was sitting in a London hotel with Dockers leader Jimmy Nolan and the writer Jimmy McGovern, meeting American intellectual Noam Chomsky. Jimmy Nolan was telling our visitor that they had far more support from Larry Bower’s New York longshoremen than the UK Labour Party or senior Trade Union officials like Bill (Lord) Morris. Where was this ‘internationalism’ or ‘solidarity’ from the Labour leadership? By contrast there was significant support from the Labour rank and file. They deserved better then, and they deserve better now, than a leadership that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the Conservative Party against Scottish independence. Our Labour has gone; it probably died when it got rid of Clause Four, the ‘public ownership’ statement, which served as the radical conscience of the party. (I think of it as being the member of the band who kept it real. Nobody listened to him that much, because they knew that if he had his way they would never sell another record. But once he was kicked out, the band quickly lost its soul and now contests the ‘political’ version of Britain’s Got Talent every five years.)

Therefore I don’t designate what we’re currently doing as ‘standing alongside’ anybody; I call it endorsing a set-up that maintains our joint misery. Better to call time on that self-defeating nonsense and encourage and inspire others to do the same. This ‘internationalism’, so publically heralded by ‘No’ leftists, (but only in response to the Scottish independence threat –otherwise its generally forgotten about) has in reality been used as a Trojan horse for a corporate-led globalisation and imperialism, where this transfer of resources from the rest to the rich is aided and abetted by the UK state.

On a related note, as well as Scotland and England, I visited Ireland, where I lived for five years, in order to attend a wedding. I felt just as close to my friends there as I did to the ones in England and Scotland: we don’t need to have the same domestic governments to moan about in order to bond as human beings over common areas of concern. It’s called internationalism, and as tough a concept as it is for some people to grasp, that doesn’t stop or start at London. Independence isn’t divisive; gross inequality, as promoted by the UK state, now that is schismatic.

So perhaps the unionist apologists from my generation should consider that it isn’t just about them any more. A march towards democracy is a process, not a destination; it’s not solely about a ‘vote’ on September 18th, or any other vote. It’s not about politicians, including ‘Salmond’ (the bogey man who brought us free prescriptions, paid higher education fees, and protected the NHS from Labour and Conservative privatising trusts – that’s also the one who hasn’t led us into war in Iraq, deregulated the City, redistributed our wealth to the already stinking rich – we should choose our demons with a sense of perspective), for once, just this once, it simply isn’t their party.

What I think it is about, is this generation having something of their own, a project that inspires them. The rest of us should be cheering them on, not sneering, grumbling, or ‘standing alongside’ establishment reactionaries against them, fuelled by a petty strop because we so manifestly failed to deliver on our own dreams. For the new generation, social progress is about more than trying to vote in a right-wing Labour Party every five years.

So maybe its time to let those smart young Scots take the lead in building something different and inspirational, free from the whines of the browbeaten, gloomy naysayers and vested interests of the elitist no-can-dooers. And, while we’re at it, support the bright young people of England in getting on with creating a truly post-imperial, multi-ethnic civic identity and democratic society, based on ability, rather than cemented rank and privilege. Give them the chance to take the fight to the Tories, UKIP, EDL, BNP and other small minds, without being distracted by the Scottish agenda, which will not go away. As with the young Scots, I believe in their ability to do just that, without a cynical, moribund Labour Party leadership professing to enable the process, but in reality always standing in their way. Because it’s our great conceit that we’re currently ‘standing alongside’ people in England; in my opinion, we’re just getting in their road.

I looked at the smirking face of Tony Blair and thought: there is no f**king chance I can ever vote for this guy. I’ve felt massively liberated ever since.

I believe that our joint aim should be to make these islands the home of a batch of healthy, vibrant democracies, instead of a chess piece in the saddo G7/militaristic ‘sphere of influence’ games of the power brokers: those war-mongering (never war-fighting) cowards and their pathetic groupies in the privately owned media. Let this happen in Britain, in Europe, across the world. That’s internationalism, not preserving an elitist, reactionary, pomp-and-ceremony failed UK state, which has over the last thirty-five years systematically crushed every single gain that non-privileged people in this country have fought for.

Sept 18th is a very small but important step in that process. A ‘yes’ vote won’t deliver the kind of society people aspire to any more than a ‘no’ vote will derail the aspiration towards it, but it will be a setback to a reactionary UK state, that has promoted little but elitism, hierarchy and the transnational superrich, at the expense of democracy.

I’m still –even now- often asked; don’t I feel sad at abandoning the party of my parents and grandparents? I went through that dilemma years ago, when I looked at the smirking face of Tony Blair and thought: there is no f**king chance I can ever vote for this guy. I’ve felt massively liberated ever since. On the contrary, I feel very angry about the current Labour Party’s continual betrayals of everything those generations fought to achieve. Brian Wilson still attacks the SNP, but now from the right, and I can’t believe Jack McConnell signed up for all this to argue against food banks from the House of Lords. Neil Kinnock is now a Brussels commissioner who probably doesn’t even know there’s a referendum in Scotland, but in the Yes movement I feel the same kind of inspiration I did when I was seventeen, after hearing his moving and invigorating speech in that broadcast. I know that plenty others who joined the Labour Party had one of those big moments in their youth too, and that’s why I’m writing this piece.  Although I detest what it has become, with its detached political class leadership, and spineless, focus group opportunism, the voters and the rank and file members of Labour remain the salt of the earth. Underneath all the cynicism, defeatism and no-can-do-ism they’ve swallowed down the years, I believe they still want the same thing: a fair and democratic society. They’ve just been fighting rearguard actions for so long, to defend jobs and services, many have simply forgotten how to go on the offensive. For the first time in years the UK establishment are taking a kicking by the people, and it is on the issue of Scottish independence. Labour should be gleefully putting the boot in, not shielding our blows on their behalf. So we need real Labour people to be inspired again, as they were when they first joined the party, in order to help build new democracies in those islands. And if they try to tell us that they are getting that inspiration from either the UK state or the Labour leadership or the No campaign, we just know that they are faking it. Maybe some have merely grown old and tired. That happens to us all, but becoming a defacto Conservative and standing alongside the establishment, that still remains an optional part of the ageing process.

But after mouthing off about the Labour Party, it’s only fair that I make a personal declaration as to where my own politics lie today. Like most people, I’ve moved away from my tartan Tory perception of the SNP and accept it as a benign, bourgeois party of the centre-left. Yes, it’s nakedly opportunist, but that factor certainly doesn’t distinguish it in modern politics, and its fairly narrow goal of Scottish independence makes it harder for it to sell out. Nonetheless, its not my party, I’ve never voted for them and would find it hard to do so, for the same reasons I can no longer vote Labour and will obviously never vote Conservative – it’s not in my internationalist DNA. Having long given up on parties, I’m stuck with having my political aspirations for these islands placed squarely in the hands of a new, broadly-based, grass roots campaign led by a different generation, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m now a dedicated ‘phase three’ yes man: let’s get it sorted out. But I want as many of my old buddies, and as many real Labour people on that journey as possible, and for bigger reasons than to deliver a yes vote for social progress on the 18th. That, as I’ve said, is only part of the process. I want them onside, because the core values that they believe in; fairness, justice and democracy, are the only values that a new Scotland -and a new England- can be constructed on.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 09, 2014, 03:02:27 PM
Cracking article. Thanks for posting that up Ulick.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 09, 2014, 03:12:38 PM
I'll second that sentiment, seanie. Ticked an awful lot of boxes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 09, 2014, 06:09:34 PM
F*ck I wish I could articulate an argument like Welsh. Fantastic read.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Lecale2 on September 09, 2014, 09:19:29 PM
Good stuff.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: FL/MAYO on September 09, 2014, 10:15:20 PM
Great read.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: orangeman on September 09, 2014, 11:21:58 PM
Serious read alright.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 10, 2014, 12:01:38 AM
And for the other side of the argument.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100285695/to-save-the-union-we-have-to-say-it-out-loud-britain-is-the-greatest-country-in-the-world/

To save the Union, we have to say it out loud: Britain is the greatest country in the world

How do we explain that poll – the one that put the “yes” vote above the “no” vote in next week’s Scottish referendum? It’s partly down to Alex Salmond’s clever job of turning the election into “more misery under the Tories” vs “an independent socialist utopia with free kittens for all”. But the bigger problem is that the “no” campaign has relied far too much on negativism and what has sometimes sounded like economic blackmail: leave the Union and your economy will collapse. Little emotional case for Britishness has been made. The nationalists have been free to play the romance card without challenge and to sound like the more authentically Scottish voice in the campaign. The nationalist narrative has been helped by two factors:

1. Pro-Union Scots have taken it for granted for so long that Scottishness and Britishness are one-and-the-same that they’ve never felt the need even to think about it. Hence, they haven’t found the right words in the past few weeks to articulate it.

2. Westminster has failed to provide a single, charismatic, unifying British voice to head the pro-Union campaign and make the case for nation-as-family. Where is our generation’s Churchill? Or Hardie or Bevan? David Cameron has remained removed from the action out of fear of causing offence with his accent, while Ed Miliband has clumped around Scotland looking like a gap year student discovering a strange and exotic land. The Scottish referendum has horribly and embarrassingly exposed the metropolitanism of our political class – as well as its dearth of imagination.

All of which points to one inescapable conclusion: to win this thing for the Union, we have to start thinking and talking like Brits again. We have to remember what makes us who we are.

I don’t know why voters haven’t been reminded of this, but we are a Union that wins wars. We licked Napoleon, we licked the Kaiser, we licked Hitler and we licked Galtieri. And what did we fight for? For a nation bound by a common language – that of Thomas, Burns and Shakespeare. For traditions of free speech, religious tolerance, property, democracy and civil rights. For each other as neighbours and cousins (we were multi-cultural before the Left dreamed up the term). We’ve committed sins together such as slavery and imperialism. But we’ve atoned for them together, too: abolishing the former and ending the latter with remarkable courtesy. We fought overseas for a better way of life here, for a welfare state that has its flaws but is rooted in a commonly held Christian decency. And, most of all, we’ve fought for what is our home. The gardens of England. The wild valleys of Wales. The rugged, gorgeous coast of Northern Ireland. The calm, frosty waters of the mysterious lochs. Britishness is defined by its soil – by the fertile earth that kept us all for centuries. The land may be temporarily governed by Tories, socialists or even treacherous Lib Dems. But don’t, as Alex Salmond does, mistake our government for our country. The former is always controversial, always hated by someone. The latter is immutable. The lark will continue to ascend long after this campaign is over. The bluebell will bloom every spring – nodding in the highland breeze as if silently concurring on an eternal truth.

We are not a political project that changes course from time to time. Rather, we are a nation. Nations are above Left and Right, and you stick with them even when they are wrong.

Everyone in Britain has the incredible fortune to be living in the greatest country on the Earth. Probably in history. Of course, every nationality thinks that about their nation – but what makes us unique (and maybe this is key to our greatness) is that we don’t like to talk about it. And although it’s admirable – call it “classy” – for us to value modesty above ugly chauvinism, remaining quiet about our virtues means that when times are tough then we may not be able to explain why patriotism should triumph over self-interest. If the Scots are edging towards leaving then it's partly because they think they can do better alone and are still waiting for a reason why they should put the endurance of the wider nation first. To save the Union we love, we have to talk more openly about why we love it. Why, in ages past, so many men have died for it.

So for the next few days, can we please stop being self-effacingly British and instead be obnoxiously, proudly British? Proud of the country that invented economics, the internet, the principle of trial by jury, and James Bond. Proud of our economy, our army, our communities and our role as a global power. Proud to be part of a country that millions of people overseas look at and admire as a beacon of wealth and human rights. A country we are, by the grace of God, fortunate to call “home”.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Puckoon on September 10, 2014, 01:05:34 AM
We may be a small country, but we're a great one, too. The country of Shakespeare, Churchill, the Beatles, Sean Connery, Harry Potter. David Beckham's right foot. David Beckham's left foot, come to that.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: weareros on September 10, 2014, 01:42:41 AM
Last  unionist blog post clearly not too familiar with poetry of Burns who wrote of the traitors who signed the Union in 1707.

O would, or I had seen the day

That Treason thus could sell us,

My auld grey head had lien in clay

Wi Bruce and loyal Wallace!

But pith and power, till my last hour

I'll mak this declaration

We're bought and sold for English gold -

Sic a parcel o rogues in a nation!

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggy90 on September 10, 2014, 06:53:03 AM
Interesting article by Irvine Welsh on the Bella Caledonia blog which probably reflects the outlooks of a fair amount of non-SNP 'yes' supporters.

http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2014/09/08/labour-pains-labour-of-love/

Labour Pains, Labour of Love

Labour: Where Did It All Go Wrong?

by Irvine Welsh

When I think back to how the Scottish independence debate has evolved in terms of my personal journey, I can see it in three distinct phases. The first was best expressed by the bitter and ugly sentiment “it’s all the English’s fault.” This guff was fairly ubiquitously trumpeted when I was a kid, and largely sustained, I believe, by an infantile football mentality. I was always unmoved by this idiocy: nobody was going to tell me that my cousins in Wolverhampton or Aunt in West London were in any way culpable for our circumstances north of the border. In retrospect, the ban on the annual Scotland v England match was the best thing that ever happened to the debate, it helped folk think a little more clearly. When ‘politics’ is mixed up with football, the end result is invariably the ossification of cretinism. This phase left it’s psychological legacy; to this day I find it hard to support the Scottish national team, or, indeed, have any truck with the term ‘nationalism’.

    I’ve been greatly inspired by the post-devolution generation, and their pragmatic thinking on the issue of independence.

I came from a family of trade unionists, and in my youth I was a Labour Party supporter. My political hero was Tony Benn. I recall, with my dad, watching Neil Kinnock in a political broadcast, and, roused by the Welshman’s stirring oratory, I joined the party in my teens. I hated the SNP, regarding them as a divisive force of tartan Tories. I loved Brian Wilson’s attacks on them, in magazines like the West Highland Free Press and the short-lived Seven Days.

For most of my young adult life, I moved between Edinburgh and London. As the 1980’s wore on, I noted how things started to change in Scotland; there was a growing realisation that the problem wasn’t the English, it was our own stupid selves. Whatever our circumstances, they were only existent because we tolerated them. This was what I regard as ‘phase two’ on the evolutionary scale of the Scottish Independence debate. It was progress, for sure, but the downside of it was the self-hating element, which the character Renton identifies with in Trainspotting. Ultimately self-loathing is no more edifying than the scapegoating of others, but in order to make headway it’s probably essential to face up to your own shortcomings, no matter how painful. And this led us to stage three of the debate.

I’ve been greatly inspired by the post-devolution generation, and their pragmatic thinking on the issue of independence. I believe they have enabled an emotionally backward and immature country (as all countries, by definition must be, when they are governed from elsewhere) to grow up and move forward. It’s this generation who have given us phase three of the independence debate: beautiful, wonderful phase three, which says that it doesn’t matter who is to ‘blame’, the important thing is to fix it.

When I was recently back in both Scotland and England, it was instructive to see how generational the independence debate has become and how my own one has split on the issue. There is certainly far less unanimity between us than there is with the smart, educated young people I met in Edinburgh. Almost to a man and woman they were enthusiastically, if critically, on the ‘yes’ side of the discussion. Crucially, the few who demurred seemed very different from the depressed, resentful naysayers of my own generation, in that they were also highly ebullient about the ongoing discourse. This youth represents the new Scotland; they won’t be looking for safe a Labour seat in Westminster, or marching in sectarian parades with flute and pipe bands, and they are equally unexcited by the tartan army-esque see-you-Jimmy buffoonery of kitschy nationalism.

It’s a little painful to report that the representatives of this post-devolution generation were far more impressive than many of my old comrades. Of my motley crew, the ones excited and revitalised by the independence debate are all firmly ‘yes’ advocates. But my ‘no’ friends, all people I respect (and yes, love), were invariably annoyed, scared and even angry, that this debate, this democracy, this real discussion on their own futures was even taking place. When I asked why, what kept coming back was that we should be talking about something else. That they were almost all Labour Party supporters should come as no surprise, nor should it be a shock that the ‘something else’ was usually defined as ‘kicking the Tories out.’ To what end, I would enquire. To build a fairer society, was the invariable reply. So I wondered, sometimes out loud, sometimes not, how exactly they intended to do that. Through Trident? War in Iraq? NHS trusts? Deregulation of the City, with subsequent bailouts after they fucked it up? Through the House of Lords? Or the continuing negation of democracy, and siphonage of the country’s resources to a transnational elite?

It struck me that we, the post-war consensus generations from hippy to punk to post punk to house, have left them, the new breed, this youth engaged and politicised at grass roots level by the independence debate, with absolutely nothing. The trade unions have been debilitated, Labour rebranded as a centre-right conservative party, the welfare state and the NHS destroyed, and with this, a massive redistribution of wealth from everybody to the super rich. And all of this took place on our watch.

    So if the current youth of Scotland, with their free tuition fees and free medicines, have been ‘bought off’ by Salmond, it has been in exactly the same way that I was ‘bought off’ by Bevan.

The delusion by many on the left, that by trying to maintain the United Kingdom (the clue is in the name) they are fighting to preserve some sort of socialist internationalism, is an astonishingly persistent one, representing the ultimate triumph of hope over experience. The UK has always been an imperialist construct, set up to protect and further the interests of the rich. There was a brief period after the Second World War when it sought to be something more. The elites conned people into participating in the bloodbath of WW1 on the promise of ‘homes fit for heroes’ and the ‘patriots’ were rewarded with more slums, a depression, and hunger marches that met with only the indifference and hostility of the UK state. Then, the ordinary folks were shunted back into the line of fire to face the Nazi’s. Something fundamental did happen when we opened Hitler’s death camps at Auschwitz and Dachau, and our collective humanity was stirred. Moreover, people returned in the mood to fight for concessions, and the elites were pragmatically ready to concede them.  So we had the emergence of a post war consensus and the welfare state.

I was a benefactor of that consensus. I took evening classes at the local college for a pound, had my university fees paid, obtained a full student grant, and benefited from universal healthcare. For the social equivalent of me today, making this progress would be impossible without accruing a lifetime of debt and becoming no better than a slave – f**k that bullshit. So if the current youth of Scotland, with their free tuition fees and free medicines, have been ‘bought off’ by Salmond, it has been in exactly the same way that I was ‘bought off’ by Bevan.

All that has now gone, and the Labour Party will not be bringing it back. Tony Blair and Gordon Brown were no aberrations; they were the natural progression of a movement that has ‘evolved’ from its radical roots into a centre-right focus group-driven party of power. Now, on a policy level, they chase middle England votes, while lecturing working class people on their ‘duty to vote’ (Labour), in order to ‘keep the Tories out’.

Gordon Brown’s recent book My Scotland, Our Britain on the case for the union, like his critique of Thatcherism, Where There Is Greed, would be highly impressive if this was still 1985, and he himself hadn’t been in power for so much of the time that has passed since it was. Yes, politics is the art of the possible, but the message from the Labour Party to the people, is that in the face of neo-liberalism, nothing is possible – but keep voting for us anyway. Why?  Because, goes the stock reply, ‘we care more than the Tories’. This is true of Labour voters and party members, but it hasn’t been true of the leadership for a long, long time. They don’t seem to care that much that it’s likely that UKIP, the right-wing of the Tory party and the Mail and Sun will set the agenda at the next election. A no vote is therefore a vote to preserve that poisonous dialogue of nationalist politics, with more unwanted racist policies on Europe, immigration and security, foisted onto Scotland.

Our Labour has gone; it probably died when it got rid of Clause Four, the ‘public ownership’ statement, which served as the radical conscience of the party.

An anti-independence argument, repeated in the discussions with my old Labour-supporting pals, is one I’ve consistently heard down the years. It contends that we have to ‘stand alongside our comrades in England.’ I agree wholeheartedly, but fail to get how ‘standing alongside’ somebody involves trudging to the polling booth every five years and sheepishly sending down a cluster of political class lobby-fodder careerists to Westminster, who then continue to preside over the transfer of resources from the rest of us to the super rich. The brutal truth is that we haven’t properly ‘stood alongside’ any English or Welsh comrades since the miners strike of 84-85, because we haven’t been able to – the UK state has made sure of that with its anti-union laws. Yes, the same ones the Labour Party has had plenty of chances to modify or repeal, and let people in their workplaces have a role in our democracy. I recall twelve years later, really ‘standing alongside’ comrades in Liverpool during the dockworkers dispute, to the complete indifference and embarrassment of the Labour Party, who would rather have had everybody just go home. Towards the end of the strike, I was sitting in a London hotel with Dockers leader Jimmy Nolan and the writer Jimmy McGovern, meeting American intellectual Noam Chomsky. Jimmy Nolan was telling our visitor that they had far more support from Larry Bower’s New York longshoremen than the UK Labour Party or senior Trade Union officials like Bill (Lord) Morris. Where was this ‘internationalism’ or ‘solidarity’ from the Labour leadership? By contrast there was significant support from the Labour rank and file. They deserved better then, and they deserve better now, than a leadership that stands shoulder-to-shoulder with the Conservative Party against Scottish independence. Our Labour has gone; it probably died when it got rid of Clause Four, the ‘public ownership’ statement, which served as the radical conscience of the party. (I think of it as being the member of the band who kept it real. Nobody listened to him that much, because they knew that if he had his way they would never sell another record. But once he was kicked out, the band quickly lost its soul and now contests the ‘political’ version of Britain’s Got Talent every five years.)

Therefore I don’t designate what we’re currently doing as ‘standing alongside’ anybody; I call it endorsing a set-up that maintains our joint misery. Better to call time on that self-defeating nonsense and encourage and inspire others to do the same. This ‘internationalism’, so publically heralded by ‘No’ leftists, (but only in response to the Scottish independence threat –otherwise its generally forgotten about) has in reality been used as a Trojan horse for a corporate-led globalisation and imperialism, where this transfer of resources from the rest to the rich is aided and abetted by the UK state.

On a related note, as well as Scotland and England, I visited Ireland, where I lived for five years, in order to attend a wedding. I felt just as close to my friends there as I did to the ones in England and Scotland: we don’t need to have the same domestic governments to moan about in order to bond as human beings over common areas of concern. It’s called internationalism, and as tough a concept as it is for some people to grasp, that doesn’t stop or start at London. Independence isn’t divisive; gross inequality, as promoted by the UK state, now that is schismatic.

So perhaps the unionist apologists from my generation should consider that it isn’t just about them any more. A march towards democracy is a process, not a destination; it’s not solely about a ‘vote’ on September 18th, or any other vote. It’s not about politicians, including ‘Salmond’ (the bogey man who brought us free prescriptions, paid higher education fees, and protected the NHS from Labour and Conservative privatising trusts – that’s also the one who hasn’t led us into war in Iraq, deregulated the City, redistributed our wealth to the already stinking rich – we should choose our demons with a sense of perspective), for once, just this once, it simply isn’t their party.

What I think it is about, is this generation having something of their own, a project that inspires them. The rest of us should be cheering them on, not sneering, grumbling, or ‘standing alongside’ establishment reactionaries against them, fuelled by a petty strop because we so manifestly failed to deliver on our own dreams. For the new generation, social progress is about more than trying to vote in a right-wing Labour Party every five years.

So maybe its time to let those smart young Scots take the lead in building something different and inspirational, free from the whines of the browbeaten, gloomy naysayers and vested interests of the elitist no-can-dooers. And, while we’re at it, support the bright young people of England in getting on with creating a truly post-imperial, multi-ethnic civic identity and democratic society, based on ability, rather than cemented rank and privilege. Give them the chance to take the fight to the Tories, UKIP, EDL, BNP and other small minds, without being distracted by the Scottish agenda, which will not go away. As with the young Scots, I believe in their ability to do just that, without a cynical, moribund Labour Party leadership professing to enable the process, but in reality always standing in their way. Because it’s our great conceit that we’re currently ‘standing alongside’ people in England; in my opinion, we’re just getting in their road.

I looked at the smirking face of Tony Blair and thought: there is no f**king chance I can ever vote for this guy. I’ve felt massively liberated ever since.

I believe that our joint aim should be to make these islands the home of a batch of healthy, vibrant democracies, instead of a chess piece in the saddo G7/militaristic ‘sphere of influence’ games of the power brokers: those war-mongering (never war-fighting) cowards and their pathetic groupies in the privately owned media. Let this happen in Britain, in Europe, across the world. That’s internationalism, not preserving an elitist, reactionary, pomp-and-ceremony failed UK state, which has over the last thirty-five years systematically crushed every single gain that non-privileged people in this country have fought for.

Sept 18th is a very small but important step in that process. A ‘yes’ vote won’t deliver the kind of society people aspire to any more than a ‘no’ vote will derail the aspiration towards it, but it will be a setback to a reactionary UK state, that has promoted little but elitism, hierarchy and the transnational superrich, at the expense of democracy.

I’m still –even now- often asked; don’t I feel sad at abandoning the party of my parents and grandparents? I went through that dilemma years ago, when I looked at the smirking face of Tony Blair and thought: there is no f**king chance I can ever vote for this guy. I’ve felt massively liberated ever since. On the contrary, I feel very angry about the current Labour Party’s continual betrayals of everything those generations fought to achieve. Brian Wilson still attacks the SNP, but now from the right, and I can’t believe Jack McConnell signed up for all this to argue against food banks from the House of Lords. Neil Kinnock is now a Brussels commissioner who probably doesn’t even know there’s a referendum in Scotland, but in the Yes movement I feel the same kind of inspiration I did when I was seventeen, after hearing his moving and invigorating speech in that broadcast. I know that plenty others who joined the Labour Party had one of those big moments in their youth too, and that’s why I’m writing this piece.  Although I detest what it has become, with its detached political class leadership, and spineless, focus group opportunism, the voters and the rank and file members of Labour remain the salt of the earth. Underneath all the cynicism, defeatism and no-can-do-ism they’ve swallowed down the years, I believe they still want the same thing: a fair and democratic society. They’ve just been fighting rearguard actions for so long, to defend jobs and services, many have simply forgotten how to go on the offensive. For the first time in years the UK establishment are taking a kicking by the people, and it is on the issue of Scottish independence. Labour should be gleefully putting the boot in, not shielding our blows on their behalf. So we need real Labour people to be inspired again, as they were when they first joined the party, in order to help build new democracies in those islands. And if they try to tell us that they are getting that inspiration from either the UK state or the Labour leadership or the No campaign, we just know that they are faking it. Maybe some have merely grown old and tired. That happens to us all, but becoming a defacto Conservative and standing alongside the establishment, that still remains an optional part of the ageing process.

But after mouthing off about the Labour Party, it’s only fair that I make a personal declaration as to where my own politics lie today. Like most people, I’ve moved away from my tartan Tory perception of the SNP and accept it as a benign, bourgeois party of the centre-left. Yes, it’s nakedly opportunist, but that factor certainly doesn’t distinguish it in modern politics, and its fairly narrow goal of Scottish independence makes it harder for it to sell out. Nonetheless, its not my party, I’ve never voted for them and would find it hard to do so, for the same reasons I can no longer vote Labour and will obviously never vote Conservative – it’s not in my internationalist DNA. Having long given up on parties, I’m stuck with having my political aspirations for these islands placed squarely in the hands of a new, broadly-based, grass roots campaign led by a different generation, and I wouldn’t want it any other way. I’m now a dedicated ‘phase three’ yes man: let’s get it sorted out. But I want as many of my old buddies, and as many real Labour people on that journey as possible, and for bigger reasons than to deliver a yes vote for social progress on the 18th. That, as I’ve said, is only part of the process. I want them onside, because the core values that they believe in; fairness, justice and democracy, are the only values that a new Scotland -and a new England- can be constructed on.
[/quote

Thanks for posting Ulick, great article. Welsh takes apart the class system as well as making sound case for Scottish independence. I just wish he'd stayed with the Labour Party and fought against the neo-Tories that control it now.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 10, 2014, 08:49:29 AM
I 'LOLed' at Dec's piece. :D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 10, 2014, 09:19:08 AM
And for the other side of the argument.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/timstanley/100285695/to-save-the-union-we-have-to-say-it-out-loud-britain-is-the-greatest-country-in-the-world/

To save the Union, we have to say it out loud: Britain is the greatest country in the world

How do we explain that poll – the one that put the “yes” vote above the “no” vote in next week’s Scottish referendum? It’s partly down to Alex Salmond’s clever job of turning the election into “more misery under the Tories” vs “an independent socialist utopia with free kittens for all”. But the bigger problem is that the “no” campaign has relied far too much on negativism and what has sometimes sounded like economic blackmail: leave the Union and your economy will collapse. Little emotional case for Britishness has been made. The nationalists have been free to play the romance card without challenge and to sound like the more authentically Scottish voice in the campaign. The nationalist narrative has been helped by two factors:

1. Pro-Union Scots have taken it for granted for so long that Scottishness and Britishness are one-and-the-same that they’ve never felt the need even to think about it. Hence, they haven’t found the right words in the past few weeks to articulate it.

2. Westminster has failed to provide a single, charismatic, unifying British voice to head the pro-Union campaign and make the case for nation-as-family. Where is our generation’s Churchill? Or Hardie or Bevan? David Cameron has remained removed from the action out of fear of causing offence with his accent, while Ed Miliband has clumped around Scotland looking like a gap year student discovering a strange and exotic land. The Scottish referendum has horribly and embarrassingly exposed the metropolitanism of our political class – as well as its dearth of imagination.

All of which points to one inescapable conclusion: to win this thing for the Union, we have to start thinking and talking like Brits again. We have to remember what makes us who we are.

I don’t know why voters haven’t been reminded of this, but we are a Union that wins wars. We licked Napoleon, we licked the Kaiser, we licked Hitler and we licked Galtieri. And what did we fight for? For a nation bound by a common language – that of Thomas, Burns and Shakespeare. For traditions of free speech, religious tolerance, property, democracy and civil rights. For each other as neighbours and cousins (we were multi-cultural before the Left dreamed up the term). We’ve committed sins together such as slavery and imperialism. But we’ve atoned for them together, too: abolishing the former and ending the latter with remarkable courtesy. We fought overseas for a better way of life here, for a welfare state that has its flaws but is rooted in a commonly held Christian decency. And, most of all, we’ve fought for what is our home. The gardens of England. The wild valleys of Wales. The rugged, gorgeous coast of Northern Ireland. The calm, frosty waters of the mysterious lochs. Britishness is defined by its soil – by the fertile earth that kept us all for centuries. The land may be temporarily governed by Tories, socialists or even treacherous Lib Dems. But don’t, as Alex Salmond does, mistake our government for our country. The former is always controversial, always hated by someone. The latter is immutable. The lark will continue to ascend long after this campaign is over. The bluebell will bloom every spring – nodding in the highland breeze as if silently concurring on an eternal truth.

We are not a political project that changes course from time to time. Rather, we are a nation. Nations are above Left and Right, and you stick with them even when they are wrong.

Everyone in Britain has the incredible fortune to be living in the greatest country on the Earth. Probably in history. Of course, every nationality thinks that about their nation – but what makes us unique (and maybe this is key to our greatness) is that we don’t like to talk about it. And although it’s admirable – call it “classy” – for us to value modesty above ugly chauvinism, remaining quiet about our virtues means that when times are tough then we may not be able to explain why patriotism should triumph over self-interest. If the Scots are edging towards leaving then it's partly because they think they can do better alone and are still waiting for a reason why they should put the endurance of the wider nation first. To save the Union we love, we have to talk more openly about why we love it. Why, in ages past, so many men have died for it.

So for the next few days, can we please stop being self-effacingly British and instead be obnoxiously, proudly British? Proud of the country that invented economics, the internet, the principle of trial by jury, and James Bond. Proud of our economy, our army, our communities and our role as a global power. Proud to be part of a country that millions of people overseas look at and admire as a beacon of wealth and human rights. A country we are, by the grace of God, fortunate to call “home”.

Hard to beat a bit of fluffy jingoism.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 10, 2014, 09:41:11 AM
Hard to beat a bit of fluffy jingoism.

I dare say it'd be very easy for Yes votes to resist that drivel.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 10, 2014, 09:48:08 AM
There's a much better case for voting No made here (http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/09/why-i-am-voting-no/). I haven't pasted it in because he does go on a bit. Having been acquainted with the writer in college, I'm not surprised that it is both reasonable and long-winded.

Edit: oh, and the manner in which the Unionists in comments go mental also suggests he is on to something.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 10, 2014, 09:51:03 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/scotland-referendum-britain-independence-vote

The paint was peeling, and chunks of ceiling seemed precariously balanced, as we sat in a derelict swimming pool in Govanhill community centre, in Glasgow. Inevitably, the surroundings provided many of the passionate speakers at the first Festival of Ideas with a handy metaphor for the union as they elaborated their project of “live as if in the early days of a better nation”. From where I was sitting, in the deep end, I saw there is a real danger that over the next 10 days we will profoundly miss the point.

Listening hard, it felt like entering an Alice in Wonderland world because many of the words we think we understand turn out to have radically different meanings in this exhilarating debate north of the border. Most importantly, for many people independence is not about nationalism at all, and certainly not ethnic nationalism (a mistake still being attributed to the yes voters).

But it’s not even about the revamped civic nationalism of the Scottish National party either. Many people are quite clear, they are voting yes because they want a new form of politics, better democracy and social justice. It’s a massive protest vote against the status quo.

There are varying degrees of idealism, self delusion and realism about the chances of Edinburgh delivering on this promised land, but the point is that increasing numbers think it’s worth a try. You can hear the echoes of Thomas Carlyle in the stirring rhetoric on the evils of materialism and neoliberalism. The dubious track record of Alex Salmond on this front is dismissed as irrelevant; post independence, new political parties will form in this brave new world.

There are two implications of this. Regardless of the referendum outcome, the campaign has proved a catastrophic failure for Labour. It is no longer an effective vehicle for democracy and social justice in one of its oldest heartlands. Its vote has collapsed. The word most commonly used in conjunction with Labour is ‘corrupt’.

A shrill hysteria has now crept into London-based government and media responses. Words such as foreign and amputation are being thrown about alongside talk of passports and borders. Britain is once again hailed as broken (I blame alliteration). But as the rubble of nationalism is cleared away, there is a second implication as another word is being reinvented: Britishness.

Repeatedly, Scottish yes voters insisted they would remain British. The Irish writer Fintan O’Toole agreed: Ireland was still British. The point made was that when Norway split from Sweden in 1905, Scandinavia emerged as a powerful common identity.

This definition of Britishness is about a shared history and language, and the common reference points of culture and ideas that provides. We are all part of the British Isles, and nothing is going to change that rich interdependency as we continue to fall in love, make babies, make friends, exchange ideas, trade, and visit each other.

As an Atlantic archipelago of islands on the edge of Europe, we have far more in common with each other than not, and do not necessarily need a political union to make that a reality. What we will need is new institutions of collaboration across the nations and regions of the isles.

It’s a dramatic redrafting of the story of Britain. In recent decades, it has been self-evident that the Britain of empire and monarchy, of army and church, is history. Britishness has historically been seen as an export, more about how to project ourselves on to the world than how we want to live together. Attempts to revitalise Britishness by claiming human values, such as fair play, rang hollow. The Better Together campaign has been dogged with the absence of any emotionally resonant vision of Britain to articulate as a defence of union.

This idea of Britain is already lost regardless of 18 September’s verdict. That much is commonplace. The point, then, is what you do about it. England will have to find its way to a new relationship, one among equals with the other nations that share these British islands.

Agreed, England’s impulse for much of the last millennium has been to dominate the cultures and nations of this archipelago, but there are plenty of long overdue reasons why its famed pragmatism could see the sense of recasting those relationships now, given our shared economic interests and environmental resources.

Not all relationships within the British Isles would be configured at Westminster, although England will, by virtue of its size, be a valued partner. Ireland is likely to play a midwife role in the event of an independent Scotland. Northern Ireland’s history and connections are more with Scotland than England, and O’Toole rightly suggested that Northern Ireland should be a priority for any independent Scotland.

Why choose the metaphor of divorce, with all its associations of bitterness, recrimination and pain? At a point of history such as this, metaphors are vitally important because they have a way of becoming self fulfilling.

Benedict Anderson famously said nations are “imagined communities”. Scotland is busily imagining itself; England is slowly stirring to the same task, and with plentiful resources of radicalism and diversity from which to draw. What we now have to do is use our shared geography. For decades, we have been transfixed by the white cliffs of Dover as a symbol of nation. But if we look west and north to those who share these islands, we can serve our common history and recognise all the unions – of families, cultures, friendships, environment and economy – that will continue as powerfully as ever after 18 September, whatever the vote.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: orangeman on September 10, 2014, 09:58:14 AM
Is there a wee chance that the SNP leaders are privately shiting themselves at the prospect of them winning the vote, that they never really thought that they'd get this close and that being the opposition was nice and easy compared to actually governing ?.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggysego on September 10, 2014, 11:47:11 AM
Is there a wee chance that the SNP leaders are privately shiting themselves at the prospect of them winning the vote, that they never really thought that they'd get this close and that being the opposition was nice and easy compared to actually governing ?.

If it is a Yes, it won't be until 2016 and there's be a fresh round of elections to elect new M(S)Ps. A sizeable amount of Yes voters said they aren't SNP voters and well, none of the No voters would be. Chances are, SNP won't be the largest party in the newly Independent Scotland and Alex probably expects this. Still, would there be any need for the SNP anymore?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 10, 2014, 02:06:04 PM
I 'LOLed' at Dec's piece. :D

It's comedy gold.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: maddog on September 10, 2014, 02:59:32 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/09/yes-vote-in-scotland-most-dangerous-thing-of-all-hope)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Agent Orange on September 10, 2014, 06:46:41 PM
53% No 47% Yes according to Ch4.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 10, 2014, 07:20:09 PM
53% No 47% Yes according to Ch4.

Well within the margin of terror.


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 10, 2014, 07:42:36 PM
Quote
53% No 47% Yes according to Ch4.

I'd say it will work out a bit like this in the end.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 10, 2014, 08:24:26 PM
So assuming Scotland does vote No, what 'extra powers' will be devolved to Edinburgh?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 10, 2014, 09:49:19 PM
Is there a wee chance that the SNP leaders are privately shiting themselves at the prospect of them winning the vote, that they never really thought that they'd get this close and that being the opposition was nice and easy compared to actually governing ?.

If it is a Yes, it won't be until 2016 and there's be a fresh round of elections to elect new M(S)Ps. A sizeable amount of Yes voters said they aren't SNP voters and well, none of the No voters would be. Chances are, SNP won't be the largest party in the newly Independent Scotland and Alex probably expects this. Still, would there be any need for the SNP anymore?
The SNP has 65 MSPs,  Labour follows with 37. It would take some swing for the SNP to be overtaken as the largest party next time around.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BarryBreensBandage on September 10, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
So assuming Scotland does vote No, what 'extra powers' will be devolved to Edinburgh?

None, according to William Hague:

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile/politics/referendum-news/hague-giving-scotland-more-powers-if-it-votes-no-is-not-government-policy.1410350878
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: T Fearon on September 10, 2014, 10:23:57 PM
On BBC radio ulster today Professor Tom Devine made a total arse out of Ruth Dudley Edwards,and in response to his aggressive attitude he explained that his tone softens according to the opposing intellect with whom he's debating ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyCake on September 10, 2014, 10:34:02 PM
More powers, me arse. Don't be fooled by fcukwit politicians. I'm always of the opinion that whatever a politician says, take the opposite meaning.

Unfortunately they'll do enough to make Scots fearful of independence and they'll vote no.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 10, 2014, 10:59:13 PM
On BBC radio ulster today Professor Tom Devine made a total arse out of Ruth Dudley Edwards,and in response to his aggressive attitude he explained that his tone softens according to the opposing intellect with whom he's debating ;D

Whatever happens, some good has been done.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: under the bar on September 10, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
Expect to see a red alert anytime re an Isis or Al Qaida plot to attack Edinburgh or Glasgow!   Of course it will be foiled in the nick of time due to Scotland Yard's union-enhanced intelligence-sharing with Strathclyde!!   
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyCake on September 10, 2014, 11:40:39 PM
Expect to see a red alert anytime re an Isis or Al Qaida plot to attack Edinburgh or Glasgow!   Of course it will be foiled in the nick of time due to Scotland Yard's union-enhanced intelligence-sharing with Strathclyde!!   

I'll take that bet (or something similar).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 11, 2014, 09:35:48 AM
With the announcements from Standard Life, RBS and Lloyds in the last 24 hours, you wonder what price Cameron has paid/will pay for this "support", or maybe he's calling in a few favours.

As for additional powers to Scotland...what power has Gordon Broon to make this happen?  As I understand it there is no commitment to do this, all waffle and empty promises.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 11, 2014, 09:37:06 AM
RBS, Standard Life all being lined up to say they'll move jobs out of Scotland to London, all the big shots are being fired now that its getting a bit too close for comfort for Cameron and Co.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: naka on September 11, 2014, 09:53:30 AM
actually think when the voting is counted too many are scared of the change
to go for yes
 
its like in the 6 counties ( a lot of my mates are nationalists with a small n ) when the voting comes for unity we will all be surprised at how many will vote for the status quo to remain
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 11, 2014, 09:54:40 AM
It just goes to show what happens when your getting too close to changing the status quo. As the saying goes ...feel the fear and do it anyway
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 11, 2014, 10:05:20 AM
I don't get this "fear" thing. It's not as if things are good at present!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 11, 2014, 10:13:03 AM
The element of the 'Devil you know' is strong. One thing this referendum has proven to me is that the 'patriotic' bonds holding the UK together have never been weaker. The Scots have always had a bit of an oxymoronic outook on their relationship with England especially. Even Flower of Scotland has elements of it

"Those Days are Past now, and in the past they must remain,
But we will still rise now, and be a nation again that stood against them,
Proud Edward's Army, and sent them homewards tae think again".

If the No vote wins, it will probably be out of 'fear' of being a standalone country. It won't be because the bonds of Britishness as so strong.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 11, 2014, 10:26:26 AM
If you propose change, it is easy for people to suggest all sorts of things will occur. In general, citizens understanding of the overall situation is limited, you only have to look at the trite sh|te spoken about in relation to Irish unity, and so they can't easily figure out the actual reality of the dire warnings, or indeed great promises.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 11, 2014, 10:30:35 AM
Oh, did anyone see the 'close to tears' David Cameron giving his heartfelt speech in Scotland yesterday.
The only way that man would have been in tears was if he was pulling his pubes out with the hand he'd jammed in his pocket...
Sure wouldn't the Tories be better off without Scotland, almost guaranteed house of Commons majority and no Scottish basket case to pump funds into it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 11, 2014, 10:32:58 AM
Oh, did anyone see the 'close to tears' David Cameron giving his heartfelt speech in Scotland yesterday.
The only way that man would have been in tears was if he was pulling his pubes out with the hand he'd jammed in his pocket...
Sure wouldn't the Tories be better off without Scotland, almost guaranteed house of Commons majority and no Scottish basket case to pump funds into it.

He'll come to regret that effin' Tories line.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bcarrier on September 11, 2014, 10:38:50 AM
The timing of the Invictus Games looks suspect.

Some nonsense being spouted by both sides now.

I dont think the Scots have though through what type of country they want to be after independence or maybe the SNP dont want to say it. Could they be better off without the oversized banking sector and its contingent liabilities.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 11, 2014, 10:57:59 AM
The timing of the Invictus Games looks suspect.

Some nonsense being spouted by both sides now.

I dont think the Scots have though through what type of country they want to be after independence or maybe the SNP dont want to say it. Could they be better off without the oversized banking sector and its contingent liabilities.


On the contrary I think the SNP have produced quite a detailed white paper on it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: andoireabu on September 11, 2014, 11:53:53 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buiXDbgnc4M)

short video on some of the nonsesne arguments being used for No
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: general_lee on September 11, 2014, 12:02:38 PM
RBS, Standard Life all being lined up to say they'll move jobs out of Scotland to London, all the big shots are being fired now that its getting a bit too close for comfort for Cameron and Co.
Moving registered head offices (RBS anyway) to London, operations to remain in Edinburgh, Greenock etc. More scaremongering.

The BT campaigners have been utterly pathetic but it seems their scare tactics will come out on top. Shame really!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bcarrier on September 11, 2014, 02:25:33 PM
FT

Mr Salmond can tug on the emotions of his fellow countrymen but he has given few credible answers about the challenges – economic, social and international – which would face Scotland. His Panglossian pitch is that the Scots can have the best of all possible worlds: independence, the monarchy and the pound, and that a Scotland which retreats into a narrower nationalist identity will somehow be better equipped to prosper in a world of globalisation.

His argument contains glaring inconsistencies. A currency union demands a political union. The eurozone’s travails show us as much. Mark Carney, governor of the Bank of England, made clear again this week that political independence is incompatible with maintaining sterling as the currency of choice. Mr Salmond insists the English establishment is bluffing. This is no bluff. The currency uncertainty will blight every aspect of the Scottish economy, from commercial lending to mortgages. Without total clarity, every Scottish citizen is left exposed.

Mr Salmond claims that separation is the best guarantee of future prosperity. His calculations are based on much wishful thinking covering vital matters such as the future oil price and how much of the UK’s debt would be assumed by the Scots. He presumes that it serves no one’s interest to be unreasonable about the terms of divorce, but he underestimates the psychological shock. No one can predict the consequences.

Nor is it obvious why Scotland will gain early and automatic entry into the EU. Other European states with their own separatist movements – notably Spain – have little incentive to agree to a quick deal. The only certainty is uncertainty, at a high cost to Scotland and the UK. The shift of deposits and money out of Scotland this week is a harbinger.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/b5c48254-376e-11e4-bd0a-00144feabdc0.html?segid=0100320#axzz3CwObyzTG
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 11, 2014, 02:37:27 PM
RBS, Standard Life all being lined up to say they'll move jobs out of Scotland to London, all the big shots are being fired now that its getting a bit too close for comfort for Cameron and Co.
RBS's main engine is Nat West which was 100% English before RBS bought it
Bank of Scotland bought Halifax aswell which had to be rescued by Lloyds - the Scottish banks went
 nuts during the boom years  , not unlike our own

And they are far too big for Scotland to manage in a meltdown
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Bensars on September 11, 2014, 02:55:51 PM
RBS, Standard Life all being lined up to say they'll move jobs out of Scotland to London, all the big shots are being fired now that its getting a bit too close for comfort for Cameron and Co.
RBS's main engine is Nat West which was 100% English before RBS bought it
Bank of Scotland bought Halifax aswell which had to be rescued by Lloyds - the Scottish banks went
 nuts during the boom years  , not unlike our own

And they are far too big for Scotland to manage in a meltdown


Plenty of dirty tricks happening. The closer to the referendum the more desperate the measures.

Quote
Salmond accuses Treasury of 'leak'

Posted at 10:39


First Minister Alex Salmond has accused the Treasury of leaking details of an RBS notice to markets in breach of financial regulations.

Mr Salmond is writing a letter of complaint to the head of the civil service and the prime minister.

RBS has confirmed it has contingency plans to relocate its registered headquarters to London in the event of a Yes vote next Thursday.

But in a letter to staff, the bank's chief executive said he had no intention of moving operations or staff.

Quote
'Market sensitive information'

Posted at 12:33


Alex Salmond, during his media conference address, told the BBC's Politicial Editor Nick Robinson that he hoped the BBC would "co-operate with the inevitable investigation" - into an alleged Treasury leak - of an RBS notice to relocate its registered headquarters to London in the event of a 'Yes' vote.

"Market sensitive information, and it's a basic rule, can't be released prior to the market announcement at 7 o'clock this morning," said Mr Salmond. "The RBS share price changed overnight. This is a matter of extraordinary gravity.

"I know the BBC will want to co-operate with the inevitable investigation by the Cabinet secretary into the briefing of this information, given that the briefing of information - even if we weren't in a campaign - the briefing of market sensitive information is as serious a matter as you can possibly get.

"Therefore, I know that the BBC, in its impartial role as public sector broadcaster, will give full co-operation to that investigation."


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 11, 2014, 03:18:41 PM
It's all a bit frantic at the moment - the No camp is throwing everything they've got to stop the momentum of the Yes camp carrying through into next week. You'd wonder if they can keep up this pace though or will the scaremongering backfire with the electorate before the vote. 

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 11, 2014, 03:34:37 PM
It's like Kerry-Mayo now, except no replay allowed. Fifteen minutes to go and the 'Kerry-NO' have installed three Donaghies on the edge of the square in the shape of RBS, Lloyds and Clydesdale and they've each buried it to take a narrow lead. But the difference in this game is that you can only score that goal once. Mayo-YES have fifteen minutes to spring something. What K-N don't know is that the plan is to do nothing. They can't stop their dodgy back line of Cameron, Clegg and Darling from conceding a bucketful of OGs in the last few minutes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hereiam on September 11, 2014, 03:35:47 PM
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea if the BBC were to show Braveheart next Wednesday night the hell of it.  ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 11, 2014, 03:48:32 PM
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea if the BBC were to show Braveheart next Wednesday night the hell of it.  ;D

You can be certain the BBC won't show it. Their coverage has been disgracefully one sided (not that I'm suggesting that Braveheart would add a bit of balance). Those of us in the North won't be surprised by this but regardless of the outcome it's opened a few eyes in Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 11, 2014, 03:54:57 PM
Does anyone else think it would be a good idea if the BBC were to show Braveheart next Wednesday night the hell of it.  ;D

You can be certain the BBC won't show it. Their coverage has been disgracefully one sided (not that I'm suggesting that Braveheart would add a bit of balance). Those of us in the North won't be surprised by this but regardless of the outcome it's opened a few eyes in Scotland.

Been like that pretty much from the beginning:

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-news/8598-broadcasters-favouring-no-campaign-according-to-new-academic-study
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 11, 2014, 04:01:33 PM
Fairness is such an alien concept to the British ruling elite that they can't even fake an attempt at it. Our buckos at least try to feign it but I guess they're only amateurs in comparison.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 11, 2014, 04:20:05 PM
Fairness is such an alien concept to the British ruling elite that they can't even fake an attempt at it. Our buckos at least try to feign it but I guess they're only amateurs in comparison.

correct, every time I hear some gobshite on TV talking about the British sense of fair play and all that, there's a little bit of sick in my mouth as my stomach wretches.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 11, 2014, 04:41:38 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiMXuEmqAHA&feature=youtu.be)

Labour's invasion today, from a non BBC perspective.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: haveaharp on September 11, 2014, 04:58:08 PM
Fairness is such an alien concept to the British ruling elite that they can't even fake an attempt at it. Our buckos at least try to feign it but I guess they're only amateurs in comparison.

correct, every time I hear some gobshite on TV talking about the British sense of fair play and all that, there's a little bit of sick in my mouth as my stomach wretches.

Didn't Big Ian himself say "i'd rather be British than be fair" or words to that effect
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Shamrock Shore on September 11, 2014, 05:05:11 PM
Can Scotland not be partitioned?

Worked so well in the past in other countries  :-\
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 11, 2014, 09:07:52 PM
Believe it or not there was an article in the Daily Telegraph (Sat week ago I think - bought it because of a Gary Neville interview with Dave Brailsford) about how the Shetlands (and/or Orkneys?) are very much in the No camp and the issue of these islands voting overwhelmingly No and the rest of Scotland (possibly) voting Yes could be a cause of considerable embarrassment for a newly Independent Scotland. Shitbag of a paper and all that it is, it was a good article about the Norse / Scandinavian influences.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 11, 2014, 09:16:55 PM
Somehow I couldn't see Cameron, Milliband and Clegg coming over here in a last ditch attempt if we were facing such a referendum. For Cameron in particular, I suppose there's the risk that his legacy could be the PM who lost Scotland.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 11, 2014, 09:37:19 PM
More BBC lies

http://wingsoverscotland.com/out-in-the-open/ (http://wingsoverscotland.com/out-in-the-open/)

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=enrdDaf3uss (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=enrdDaf3uss)

Nick Robinson claims Alex Salmond “didn’t answer” his question at a press conference earlier today. That is a brazen and quite spectacular lie. The First Minister gave a detailed and direct response which lasted for over three minutes BEFORE raising the matter of the Treasury link. You can see that response here.http://wingsoverscotland.com/handed-back-on-a-plate/ (http://wingsoverscotland.com/handed-back-on-a-plate/)

Robinson asked for a specific answer on RBS and a more general one on scaremongering by business chiefs. Salmond explained the RBS situation, referring to Corporation Tax and to the letter sent by RBS to employees assuring them that it had no intention of removing any operations or jobs. He dealt with the general scaremongering issue by pointing out that such warnings were repeats of ones made and responded to months ago.

So we’d rather like to know why Nick Robinson told viewers of the 6 O’Clock News that Salmond “didn’t answer”, when anyone can see for themselves that he answered both parts of Robinson’s question at considerable length. Robinson might not have LIKED the answers – we must assume he didn’t – but to claim that no answer was given is a mindboggling reversal of the plainly visible facts.

Robinson rudely harassed and heckled Salmond after his answer. He’s now lied about it on national television. The BBC’s open contempt for its legal duty of impartiality is no longer acceptable. It’s the people of Scotland who will now be demanding answers.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ONeill on September 11, 2014, 09:51:11 PM
Fairly confident it'll be a no vote. Some Yessers will crap them at the last minute.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: macdanger2 on September 11, 2014, 10:02:21 PM
Believe it or not there was an article in the Daily Telegraph (Sat week ago I think - bought it because of a Gary Neville interview with Dave Brailsford) about how the Shetlands (and/or Orkneys?) are very much in the No camp and the issue of these islands voting overwhelmingly No and the rest of Scotland (possibly) voting Yes could be a cause of considerable embarrassment for a newly Independent Scotland. Shitbag of a paper and all that it is, it was a good article about the Norse / Scandinavian influences.

I read somewhere that the islanders were actually hoping for more devolution to them from an independent Scotland
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: maddog on September 11, 2014, 10:07:27 PM
Believe it or not there was an article in the Daily Telegraph (Sat week ago I think - bought it because of a Gary Neville interview with Dave Brailsford) about how the Shetlands (and/or Orkneys?) are very much in the No camp and the issue of these islands voting overwhelmingly No and the rest of Scotland (possibly) voting Yes could be a cause of considerable embarrassment for a newly Independent Scotland. Shitbag of a paper and all that it is, it was a good article about the Norse / Scandinavian influences.

I read somewhere that the islanders were actually hoping for more devolution to them from an independent Scotland


From the few bits I have seen the islanders see centralisation in Edinburgh as not much different from London i.e a world apart from their lives. They will be looking for greater local powers for themselves but could only see them getting that with a "yes".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: mylestheslasher on September 11, 2014, 10:31:52 PM
What an opportunity for Scotland but I fear they are going to blow it and allow the English to peddle enough fear to make the difference. It seems that the westminister boys are looking for favours from the BBC and the usual media suspects to scare the Scots to vote No. I hope on the day they will vote with their hearts and tell the English where to stick their union.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: macdanger2 on September 11, 2014, 10:36:36 PM
It's gas hearing the yes side talking about the bond between England and Scotland......poor aul Wales is like the ugly sister
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 11, 2014, 11:28:21 PM
Somehow I couldn't see Cameron, Milliband and Clegg coming over here in a last ditch attempt if we were facing such a referendum. For Cameron in particular, I suppose there's the risk that his legacy could be the PM who lost Scotland.

Cameron, maybe. He's a Tory afterall.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hereiam on September 11, 2014, 11:36:07 PM
Heard ole Wuile on the radio earlier. Of course he blamed the ra for the yes camp gaining ground. I think they need to let this man speak more to the british public. What harm could it do.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: hardstation on September 11, 2014, 11:37:05 PM
If it's a no vote, the Yessers should start a Ra.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: orangeman on September 11, 2014, 11:39:39 PM
Latest poll no 52 yes 48 -about  2 dozen people have changed their mind.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on September 11, 2014, 11:53:48 PM
All elections are dirty wars, but the BBC are taking the biscuit. Their starting to give FOX news a run for their money.




Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 12, 2014, 01:08:13 AM
I must say that's very credible. I wouldn't pass any remarks about why it's unattributed.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 12, 2014, 02:18:19 AM
It's gas hearing the yes side talking about the bond between England and Scotland......poor aul Wales is like the ugly sister

What about Norn Iron ! We exist !!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 12, 2014, 08:53:39 AM
I think there is big danger for norn Irn in that no matter what way the Scottish vote goes there is going to be more of a focus on regionalism within the UK. London could start asking to keep more of the money it generates.  NI is not able to fund itself. Could get quite messy. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 12, 2014, 10:14:47 AM
It's gas hearing the yes side talking about the bond between England and Scotland......poor aul Wales is like the ugly sister

What about Norn Iron ! We exist !!

Wales is the ugly sister, quiet, but good at singing. NI is the mad sister in the attic.

Quote
I think there is big danger for norn Irn in that no matter what way the Scottish vote goes there is going to be more of a focus on regionalism within the UK. London could start asking to keep more of the money it generates.  NI is not able to fund itself. Could get quite messy.

More explicit accounting seems likely to result. Some of NIs accounts might not look well in daylight.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: haranguerer on September 12, 2014, 10:16:27 AM
If that situation were to arise (but I find it extremely unlikely), then the natural progression would be to seek support from wherever possible, that being Dublin.

The No campaign really aren't covering themselves in glory. They'll win comfortably enough in the end I imagine, but its been a shambolic campaign for them which has resulted in concessions far greater than probably would have been necessary if they had deigned to take the scots seriously from the start.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 12, 2014, 10:32:06 AM
I think there is big danger for norn Irn in that no matter what way the Scottish vote goes there is going to be more of a focus on regionalism within the UK. London could start asking to keep more of the money it generates.  NI is not able to fund itself. Could get quite messy.

They said that about Scotland once upon a time as well but hey ho when the figures were actually put under the spotlight it turned out to be untrue. Fact is we don't actually know the figures regarding the extent of the deficient in the northern economy. Yes we know how much it gets under Barnett but we don't know how much is raised in local taxes and sent to London.

Like everything else in 'Northern Ireland', the economy here is an artificial construct with almost everything skewed towards Britain at the expense of our natural hinterland in the 26 counties. This has happened for various historical reasons but there is no reason not to suppose than once the economy is rebalanced, the north couldn't in time regain it's former position as an economic power house of the country. The six counties has all the ingredients required for that to happen in terms of modern infrastructure and a young, educated and skilled workforce. Like the Scots the 6 counties have nothing to fear from standing on their own two feet in any new settlement cut from London's apron.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 12, 2014, 10:44:34 AM
Like everything else in 'Northern Ireland', the economy here is an artificial construct with almost everything skewed towards Britain at the expense of our natural hinterland in the 26 counties. This has happened for various historical reasons but there is no reason not to suppose than once the economy is rebalanced, the north couldn't in time regain it's former position as an economic power house of the country. The six counties has all the ingredients required for that to happen in terms of modern infrastructure and a young, educated and skilled workforce. Like the Scots the 6 counties have nothing to fear from standing on their own two feet in any new settlement cut from London's apron.

The problem, and Scotland's problem, is how do you get from here to there? Presently you have a skewed model which depresses production in NI in favour of Britain, which then sends some money. To improve the skew you have to cut the link, but people will not tolerate the loss of the handouts in the meantime.

The UK is like smoking. The smoking does the smoker no good in the long term, but in the short term stopping causes them to feel worse.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 12, 2014, 11:44:21 AM
It's gas hearing the yes side talking about the bond between England and Scotland......poor aul Wales is like the ugly sister

What about Norn Iron ! We exist !!

Wales is the ugly sister, quiet, but good at singing. NI is the mad sister in the attic.

Quote
I think there is big danger for norn Irn in that no matter what way the Scottish vote goes there is going to be more of a focus on regionalism within the UK. London could start asking to keep more of the money it generates.  NI is not able to fund itself. Could get quite messy.

More explicit accounting seems likely to result. Some of NIs accounts might not look well in daylight.
The other problem is that  the Queen, Protestantism and Armed forces/Somme ideology of the unionists is well past its sell by date and resonates with fewer and fewer people in Britain.  It is all over murals in the North but it is so out of touch. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ONeill on September 15, 2014, 12:32:10 AM
That was fun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmAKnchI3ek
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 15, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
One thing that has struck me about this whole issue is that the "establishment", "powers that be" and "vested interests" (which appear to include nearly all mainstream media outlets) appear to be shit scared, not that Scottish people will vote for independence per se, but that people in general will realise that you can change things through engagement in the political process.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 15, 2014, 09:53:25 AM
That was fun - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmAKnchI3ek
That is one magnificent Glasgae accent.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 15, 2014, 09:53:42 AM
Plus ça change...








Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 15, 2014, 07:24:17 PM
I wonder if the voters give the "wrong" answer will they be asked to vote again.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: screenexile on September 15, 2014, 07:48:55 PM
Will "themmuns" be allowed to put up Scottish flags around the 12th if they get a 'YES' vote? Surely they shouldn't be celebrating the Nation that turned its back on the Union. . .

From a total outsider I've taken a bit of a passing interest and it looks like the Yes campaign have picked up serious momentum this last few weeks. If the No campaign win I think it'll be by the skin of their teeth and it will be their own fault for not putting the resource behind their campaign. There was there probably little will among the majority to change the status quo until the apathy Westminster showed to the campaign until it was too late.

Allied to that the Yes campaign have had some very passionate spokespeople and canvassers who have really made it a point of highlighting what they think can be achieved with Independence. Not least your man above who's confidence about what will happen if Independence is gained is astounding.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out and hopefully they get their independence and everything goes well for them!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 15, 2014, 08:24:42 PM
I have a feeling the Yes campaign will sneak it. Bet Cameron's sorry he didn't let Salmond have Devo Max on the ballot paper... and Salmond delighted that he was denied this.

Some rumours that Murdoch will come out in support of Yes. Would be very interesting if that happened.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyCake on September 15, 2014, 08:52:52 PM
I said all along it would be No. This latest scaremongering confirms it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 15, 2014, 09:47:47 PM
I said all along it would be No. This latest scaremongering confirms it.

As much as the yes campaign have done a pretty decent job I still think most Scots with vote for the status quo and No will win out
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: keep her low this half on September 15, 2014, 10:26:45 PM
I think Yes will sneak it but it will be tight. If you look at the last Scottish elections the SNP were trailing until about 1 month before the election then surged to gain an outright majority that was meant to be impossible under the election system for the Scottish parliment. They seem to be timing their surge exactly once again. There strongest card is the NO camp who have a basic argument that Scots are too stupid to run an economy. If anything was guaranteed to annoy voters it is telling them they are stupid
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Kidder81 on September 15, 2014, 10:58:53 PM
It isn't a vote for SNP
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 15, 2014, 11:06:54 PM
I'd say no by a clear 4-5%. I put a few quid on this, but if I lose my money it will be worth it just to see the consternation!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 15, 2014, 11:09:11 PM
I have a feeling the Yes campaign will sneak it. Bet Cameron's sorry he didn't let Salmond have Devo Max on the ballot paper... and Salmond delighted that he was denied this.

Some rumours that Murdoch will come out in support of Yes. Would be very interesting if that happened.

I've been wondering about Murdoch myself. Seems to have been a bit quiet on this one.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: orangeman on September 16, 2014, 01:04:09 AM
No 1-4 yes 3-1

Bookies don't often get it wrong.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 16, 2014, 09:51:05 AM
Speculation was Murdoch would support it but after his 'tour' around Scotland he seems to have changed his mind - he's since been Tweeting stuff about SNP welfare giveaways, commies and Greens. Of course that could be a ploy as well as he maybe knows he could do Salmond more harm by supporting him than not.

My head still says No will eke it out in the end. As an anecdotal observer it seems that Yes gain most momentum at weekends but fall off again during the week as the daily papers and media hit them with a relentless stream of scaremongering. Yes would need to be clearly ahead by about 5% to counter that come Thursday as there'll be all sorts of doomsday predictions between now and then. I don't think they're that far ahead yet even though they're clearly on the side of the angels.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 16, 2014, 10:10:27 AM
I will say unfortunately NO will romp it, over 60%.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 16, 2014, 10:14:14 AM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 16, 2014, 10:20:37 AM
My head still says No will eke it out in the end. As an anecdotal observer it seems that Yes gain most momentum at weekends but fall off again during the week as the daily papers and media hit them with a relentless stream of scaremongering. Yes would need to be clearly ahead by about 5% to counter that come Thursday as there'll be all sorts of doomsday predictions between now and then. I don't think they're that far ahead yet even though they're clearly on the side of the angels.

In Quebec the "Oui" was 54% in the polls but couldn't make it in the end. In this case the polls are 50/50 at best.

As for "The Vow" that is worth less than the 55p it costs to buy the Daily Unionist Record,  the UK has no proper constitution and the government in London will do what it likes  Not that everything there isn't also some puff on the independence side, but the Scottish people can at least vote for what they want there.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 16, 2014, 10:43:24 AM
http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/12/backtrack-on-yes-vote-as-buckfast-threatens-to-pull-distributation-in-scotland/ (http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2014/09/12/backtrack-on-yes-vote-as-buckfast-threatens-to-pull-distributation-in-scotland/)




PRO-INDEPENDENCE voters were thrown into turmoil this morning after tonic wine makers, Buckfast, announced it would be pulling its Scottish distribution if there was a ‘yes vote’ majority in next week’s referendum.
Buckfast or Buckie, a fortified wine licensed from Buckfast Abbey in British ruled Devon, is one of the most sought after drinks in the highland state, with over 20 billion bottles sold every week.
A spokesperson for the company said it would discontinue its current distribution of the popular beverage due to financial reasons and a ‘conflict of interest’ with the British Parliament.
“We cannot see a future for Buckfast in an Independent Scotland,” said CEO Brent Traynor, who coincidentally met with David Cameron yesterday afternoon. “Scotland will not be able to afford our product if they vote yes, so we have no other option but to cease trading there”.
Since the devastating news, thousands of angry protesters have taken to the streets in every major Scottish town and city to voice their concerns over the move.
“I cannae vote yes if ders ne bucky,” voiced one man, who was wearing an unrecognisable Scottish football jersey. “You’d wanna be aff yer heid to vote after tha’ news. Ah dinnae how ye Irish bouys would feel about losing Guinness, but this is a huge blow for us ere and the aye vote”.
Meanwhile in Edinburgh, riot Police are currently dealing with hundreds of youths ‘panic looting’ local shops and warehouses for the tonic wine.
“This is the British government’s doing,” said first minister Alex Salmond. “David Cameron struck a deal with Buckfast knowing the implications it would cause. This is an act of war and we are going to respond accordingly”.
Following the first minister’s statement, Scottish band ‘The Proclaimers’ announced they would be cancelling their 2015 UK tour, with absolute no reaction whatsoever.

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 16, 2014, 11:11:58 AM
Free milk! Truly Thatcherism is dead. Vote NAE!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 16, 2014, 11:40:16 AM
My head still says No will eke it out in the end. As an anecdotal observer it seems that Yes gain most momentum at weekends but fall off again during the week as the daily papers and media hit them with a relentless stream of scaremongering. Yes would need to be clearly ahead by about 5% to counter that come Thursday as there'll be all sorts of doomsday predictions between now and then. I don't think they're that far ahead yet even though they're clearly on the side of the angels.

In Quebec the "Oui" was 54% in the polls but couldn't make it in the end. In this case the polls are 50/50 at best.

As for "The Vow" that is worth less than the 55p it costs to buy the Daily Unionist Record,  the UK has no proper constitution and the government in London will do what it likes  Not that everything there isn't also some puff on the independence side, but the Scottish people can at least vote for what they want there.

My head says the Scots will bottle it as well but the sheer panic in the No camp suggests that they're further ahead than the polls suggest. Rumours that Salmond's own polls are consistently 60% yes and the high number of new voter registrations are not being mainsteam polled. (calling electoral register and landlines only). Projections of a very high turnout would also point to change rather than status quo. Hope they do it but reckon they'll just fall short. Then again many stranger things have happened.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 16, 2014, 12:07:50 PM
Be great if they do it.
Cmon Scots - time to join the rest of the civilised world.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 16, 2014, 12:29:20 PM
If the vote is no, feel free to send this link to any of your scottish mates on friday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thejuice on September 16, 2014, 12:52:33 PM
I know a few 'Yes' men who are campaigning quite a bit.

The whole thing has taken a nasty tone lately especially after the whole nick Robinson thing. a bit of tit for tat vandalism has been going on and a bit of nasty verbals.

They are hopeful but my feeling the 'No' side will win. Too much of a perceived risk but you never know.

One way or another the UK will be a different place on Friday.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 16, 2014, 01:02:28 PM
Is it not incredible that Scotland got an independence referendum before Ireland?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Tony Baloney on September 16, 2014, 01:03:03 PM
My head still says No will eke it out in the end. As an anecdotal observer it seems that Yes gain most momentum at weekends but fall off again during the week as the daily papers and media hit them with a relentless stream of scaremongering. Yes would need to be clearly ahead by about 5% to counter that come Thursday as there'll be all sorts of doomsday predictions between now and then. I don't think they're that far ahead yet even though they're clearly on the side of the angels.

In Quebec the "Oui" was 54% in the polls but couldn't make it in the end. In this case the polls are 50/50 at best.

As for "The Vow" that is worth less than the 55p it costs to buy the Daily Unionist Record,  the UK has no proper constitution and the government in London will do what it likes  Not that everything there isn't also some puff on the independence side, but the Scottish people can at least vote for what they want there.

My head says the Scots will bottle it as well but the sheer panic in the No camp suggests that they're further ahead than the polls suggest. Rumours that Salmond's own polls are consistently 60% yes and the high number of new voter registrations are not being mainsteam polled. (calling electoral register and landlines only). Projections of a very high turnout would also point to change rather than status quo. Hope they do it but reckon they'll just fall short. Then again many stranger things have happened.
Would agree with you and Ulick. Those with a few quid in their pocket won't want to rock the boat and I think risk aversion is human nature for most people, therefore the "maybes" are likely to tick "naw".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 16, 2014, 01:14:23 PM
Is it not incredible that Scotland got an independence referendum before Ireland?

The SNP provide better leadership than any in Ireland.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omagh_gael on September 16, 2014, 02:57:00 PM
Listening to the radio this morning and they had an interesting debate on the wording on the referendum ballot paper. It will ask 'Do you want an independent Scotland?' The debate centered on the psychology of choosing 'yes.' Basically the 'Yes' camp have an advantage in that it is easier to convert people to say 'yes' as opposed to 'no.' People tend to choose the positive answer more often than thd negative and basically Cameron et al should have insisted the ballot paper said 'Do you want to remain apart of the United Kingdom?'
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 16, 2014, 02:59:15 PM
Listening to the radio this morning and they had an interesting debate on the wording on the referendum ballot paper. It will ask 'Do you want an independent Scotland?' The debate centered on the psychology of choosing 'yes.' Basically the 'Yes' camp have an advantage in that it is easier to convert people to say 'yes' as opposed to 'no.' People tend to choose the positive answer more often than thd negative and basically Cameron et al should have insisted the ballot paper said 'Do you want to remain apart of the United Kingdom?'

The No campaign have definitely missed a trick by not emphasising words like 'separatism' or 'secession'. 'Independence' has a much more noble ring to it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 16, 2014, 03:27:38 PM
Is it not incredible that Scotland got an independence referendum before Ireland?
As about 80% of Ireland is already Independent.....  answer  to your question is No.
The GFA covers the 6 Cos having a Referendum to either join in an Independent All Ireland or stay with the ( present) UK.
If the Scots jump ship ( please God they will) wonder what will the remnants of the "UK of GB and NI"  be called?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 16, 2014, 03:41:24 PM
PJ O'Rourke on Scottish independence

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/13/up-to-a-point-a-free-scotland-would-be-a-hilarious-disaster.html

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 16, 2014, 04:19:07 PM
Listening to the radio this morning and they had an interesting debate on the wording on the referendum ballot paper. It will ask 'Do you want an independent Scotland?' The debate centered on the psychology of choosing 'yes.' Basically the 'Yes' camp have an advantage in that it is easier to convert people to say 'yes' as opposed to 'no.' People tend to choose the positive answer more often than thd negative and basically Cameron et al should have insisted the ballot paper said 'Do you want to remain apart of the United Kingdom?'

Scottish government got to set the question wording, UK government got to ensure 'Devo Max' wasn't an option.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 16, 2014, 04:34:28 PM
It's maybe hard for we non-Scots to assess the emotional tug of allegiance either to Scotland or the UK but I have to say if I were an undecided voter I would have been concerned by the blind panic and sudden series of promises coming from the No camp at this late stage.  If Devo Max was a non-starter up until 2 weeks ago how come Devo Nearly Max is so easily thrown into the mix now.  Would you really trust any of them?  Self interest springs to mind...if Scotland votes "Yes" can Cameron really survive being the PM who presided over the break up of the UK and it would also confirm Miliband as being unelectable and the Labour party being in crisis...step forward Boris!?!?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: rrhf on September 16, 2014, 05:36:53 PM
How Cameron hasnt declared war on Somebody in the last month Ill never know.  Has the troops issue hasnt been capitalised on to any great extent. 
They needed business argument to win this one.  I expect them to do it because they have every corporation in the world bullying the sovereignty of the Scots.
People will vote with the economic uncertainty.  The Scots will pass up on their greatest chance because of multi national corporations and the thinly veiled threats.  The commonwealth games etc in Glasgow was very interesting this year.
If they vote to stay part of the union then they might as well join up in sports etc for once and for all.  Scotland as a nation will be a laughing stock. 
 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: tiempo on September 16, 2014, 06:14:14 PM
How Cameron hasnt declared war on Somebody in the last month Ill never know.  Has the troops issue hasnt been capitalised on to any great extent. 
They needed business argument to win this one.  I expect them to do it because they have every corporation in the world bullying the sovereignty of the Scots.
People will vote with the economic uncertainty.  The Scots will pass up on their greatest chance because of multi national corporations and the thinly veiled threats.  The commonwealth games etc in Glasgow was very interesting this year.
If they vote to stay part of the union then they might as well join up in sports etc for once and for all.  Scotland as a nation will be a laughing stock.

Her Majesty’s wars this last 10 years have been tenuous at best, in reality the Iraq invasion was illegal, the meddling in foreign affairs and the Whitehall position on Palestine are odious. Cameron can't afford to give the SNP the ammo of "your sending our boys off again to the frontlines" hence last week when Obama needed a few troops for his excursion into Iraq/Syria he had to defer to the Aussies.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 16, 2014, 06:18:06 PM
Listening to the radio this morning and they had an interesting debate on the wording on the referendum ballot paper. It will ask 'Do you want an independent Scotland?' The debate centered on the psychology of choosing 'yes.' Basically the 'Yes' camp have an advantage in that it is easier to convert people to say 'yes' as opposed to 'no.' People tend to choose the positive answer more often than thd negative and basically Cameron et al should have insisted the ballot paper said 'Do you want to remain apart of the United Kingdom?'

Have you ever met a unionist?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 16, 2014, 09:37:30 PM
Is it not incredible that Scotland got an independence referendum before Ireland?

The SNP provide better leadership than any in Ireland.
Less Sectarian shite to deal with.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 16, 2014, 09:43:01 PM
Jesus Salmond is a shrewd operator, so smooth after Gordon Brown mumbled his way through interview with Dimbleby (BBC1 now).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 16, 2014, 09:43:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be)

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ranch on September 16, 2014, 10:07:55 PM
Jesus Salmond is a shrewd operator, so smooth after Gordon Brown mumbled his way through interview with Dimbleby (BBC1 now).
Best politician on these islands by far.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LCohen on September 16, 2014, 10:14:01 PM
The meaning really is in the mind of the listener.

I thought Salmond was terrible there. He is good in front of a crowd but poor when faced with a serous interviewer. You could see Dimbleby holding back as he can't press too much (The bbc under of plenty of scutiny here).

The references to Adam Smith are becoming increasingly laughable
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 16, 2014, 10:35:48 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be)

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

Fixed the link. I saw it and it reminded me of . . . well, it reminded someone else too:


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 16, 2014, 10:38:21 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLAewTVmkAU&feature=youtu.be)

This is a real ad shown in Scotland from the 'No' campaign.

Fixed the link. I saw it and it reminded me of . . . well, it reminded someone else too:




Apologies, fixed it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 16, 2014, 10:43:59 PM
Baffled to see how you can possibly think that, especially in comparison to Brown - a fine orator himself, but the panic he (tonight) & the No camp in general are transmitting is palpable. Then again it is all about opinions & there's going to be some heated ones tomorrow.

I personally didn't really have a preference for Yes or No, I have been fascinated by the whole episode but would be coming down as a Yes voter if I had a vote (and that is setting aside the Irish Nationalists attitude that is probably a bit screw the UK, hope it implodes & NI might stumble into a similar position).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 07:29:14 AM
No 60%+ - no idea why the no camp is panicking!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 17, 2014, 07:56:16 AM
Eh? Simple majority required.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 07:58:52 AM
Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction.  ;)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 17, 2014, 08:53:35 AM
Monbiot is an "interesting" character.  I as often disagree as agree with him but this is a good piece on the role of the mainstream media in the IndyRef campaign:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/16/media-shafted-people-scotland-journalists

How the media shafted the people of Scotland

Perhaps the most arresting fact about the Scottish referendum is this: that there is no newspaper – local, regional or national, English or Scottish – that supports independence except the Sunday Herald. The Scots who will vote yes have been almost without representation in the media.

There is nothing unusual about this. Change in any direction, except further over the brink of market fundamentalism and planetary destruction, requires the defiance of almost the entire battery of salaried opinion. What distinguishes the independence campaign is that it has continued to prosper despite this assault.

In the coverage of the referendum we see most of the pathologies of the corporate media. Here, for instance, you will find the unfounded generalisations with which less enlightened souls are characterised. In the Spectator, Simon Heffer maintains that: “addicted to welfare ... Scots embraced the something for nothing society”, objecting to the poll tax “because many of them felt that paying taxes ought to be the responsibility of someone else”.

Here is the condescension with which the dominant classes have always treated those they regard as inferior: their serfs, the poor, the Irish, Africans, anyone with whom they disagree. “What spoilt, selfish, childlike fools those Scots are ... They simply don’t have a clue how lucky they are,” sneered Melanie Reid in the Times. Here is the chronic inability to distinguish between a cause and a person: the referendum is widely portrayed as a vote about Alex Salmond, who is then monstered beyond recognition (a Telegraph editorial compared him to Robert Mugabe).

The problem with the media is exemplified by Dominic Lawson’s column for the Daily Mail last week. He began with Scotland, comparing the “threat” of independence with that presented by Hitler (the article was helpfully illustrated with a picture of the Führer – unaccompanied, in this case, by the Mail’s former proprietor). Then he turned to the momentous issue of how he almost wrote something inaccurate about David Attenborough, which was narrowly averted because “as it happens, last weekend we had staying with us another of the BBC’s great figures, its world affairs editor John Simpson”, who happily corrected Lawson’s mistake. This was just as well because “the next day I went to the Royal Albert Hall as one of a small number of guests invited by the Proms director for that night’s performance. And who should I see as soon as I entered the little room set aside for our group’s pre-concert drinks? Sir David Attenborough.”

Those who are supposed to hold power to account live in a rarefied, self-referential world of power, circulating among people as exalted as themselves, the “small number of guests” who receive the most charming invitations. That a senior journalist at the BBC should be the house guest of a columnist for the Daily Mail surprises me not one iota.

In June the BBC’s economics editor, Robert Peston, complained that BBC news “is completely obsessed by the agenda set by newspapers … If we think the Mail and Telegraph will lead with this, we should. It’s part of the culture.” This might help to explain why the BBC has attracted so many complaints of bias in favour of the no campaign.

Living within their tiny circle of light, most senior journalists seem unable to comprehend a desire for change. If they notice it at all, they perceive it as a mortal threat, comparable perhaps to Hitler. They know as little of the lives of the 64 million inhabiting the outer darkness as they do of the Andaman islanders. Yet, lecturing the poor from under the wisteria, they claim to speak for the nation.

As John Harris reports in the Guardian, both north and south of the border “politics as usual suddenly seems so lost as to look completely absurd”. But to those within the circle, politics still begins and ends in Westminster. The opinions of no one beyond the gilded thousand with whom they associate is worthy of notice. Throughout the years I’ve spent working with protest movements and trying to bring neglected issues to light, one consistent theme has emerged: with a few notable exceptions, journalists are always among the last to twig that things have changed. It’s no wonder that the Scottish opinion polls took them by surprise.

One of the roles of the Guardian, which has no proprietor, is to represent the unrepresented – and it often does so to great effect. On Scottish independence I believe we have fallen short. Our leader on Saturday used the frames constructed by the rest of the press, inflating a couple of incidents into a “habit” by yes campaigners of “attacking the messenger and ignoring the message”, judging the long-term future of the nation by current SNP policy, confusing self-determination with nationalism.

If Westminster is locked into a paralysing neoliberal consensus it is partly because the corporate media, owned and staffed by its beneficiaries, demands it. Any party that challenges this worldview is ruthlessly disciplined. Any party that more noisily promotes corporate power is lauded and championed. Ukip, though it claims to be kicking against the establishment, owes much of its success to the corporate press.

For a moment, Rupert Murdoch appeared ready to offer one of his Faustian bargains to the Scottish National party: my papers for your soul. That offer now seems to have been withdrawn, as he has decided that Salmond’s SNP is “not talking about independence, but more welfarism, expensive greenery, etc and passing sovereignty to Brussels” and that it “must change course to prosper if he wins”. It’s not an observation, it’s a warning: if you win independence and pursue this agenda, my newspapers will destroy you.

Despite the rise of social media, the established media continues to define the scope of representative politics in Britain, to shape political demands and to punish and erase those who resist. It is one chamber of the corrupt heart of Britain, pumping fear, misinformation and hatred around the body politic.

That so many Scots, lambasted from all quarters as fools, frauds and ingrates, have refused to be bullied is itself a political triumph. If they vote for independence, they will do so in defiance not only of the Westminster consensus but also of its enforcers: the detached, complacent people who claim to speak on their behalf.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 17, 2014, 08:53:51 AM
Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction.  ;)

The higher the turnout the more chance yes has. More panic from the tools of No.



The Mirror of all papers.

There appears to a typo there, Fighting Dictators should say Clearing Highlands.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 17, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 17, 2014, 09:55:21 AM
Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?

Big Scot I work with who is firmly in the No camp reckons after talking to friends in Scotland over the weekend that the Yes vote is far bigger than some of the polls suggest and will possibly go through.

A lot of young Scots disenfranchised with their lot want change one way or the other he reckons!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 17, 2014, 10:05:22 AM
Apparently there's 300k new voters registered since the summer and Yes are planning all sorts of things to get the vote out in difficult (underprivileged) areas such as marches to polling stations with bagpipes and the like. Turnout in Scotland was around 50% at the last election so you'd have to think that if it's substantially more particularly in working class areas it would favour Yes?

That's why we have to take the polls with at least a small pinch of salt as the newly registered voters have not been polled and there could be a significant margin of error.  The Scots-Irish tend to be solid Labour voters and therefore in the "No" camp but it seems Scots-Asian voters favour a "Yes" outcome.

Interesting is that the raft of new powers proposed by the No camp have not been agreed by the the 3 parties and that Gordon Brown could not give a long term tax commitment on the BBC and also the director of the No campaign could not give a commitment that the Barnett formula could be writ in stone for Scotland on the radio this morning.  It seems to me that the "Westminster Elite" arriving in Scotland with a bag of new powers could reinforce in voters minds who really wields power in Scotland and where that power sits.  That has been a mainstay of the Yes campaign.

I still think No will win out in the region of 54%-46% but the divil inside me is hoping fro a Yes win just to see the almighty kerfuffle that would ensue over the weekend!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 17, 2014, 10:49:31 AM
Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction.  ;)

The higher the turnout the more chance yes has. More panic from the tools of No.



The Mirror of all papers.

There appears to a typo there, Fighting Dictators should say Clearing Highlands.

No mention of Culloden either
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 17, 2014, 11:04:09 AM
Eh? Simple majority required.

Good man benny - 60%+ No was my prediction.  ;)

The higher the turnout the more chance yes has. More panic from the tools of No.



The Mirror of all papers.

There appears to a typo there, Fighting Dictators should say Clearing Highlands.

No mention of Culloden either

Did they consider all meanings of the words 'We celebrate in this historic pullout'?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Denn Forever on September 17, 2014, 11:07:14 AM
What is the name of the stone that symbolised the power of The King of Scotland that was removed?  Would it be given back?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 17, 2014, 11:09:27 AM
What is the name of the stone that symbolised the power of The King of Scotland that was removed?  Would it be given back?

The Stone of Scone. It was returned to Scotland in 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_of_Scone#Return_to_Scotland).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 17, 2014, 12:10:30 PM
The guff about saving the NHS is really over the top giving the Tories are slowly flogging off big chunks of it to the private sector.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Bord na Mona man on September 17, 2014, 12:19:20 PM
What side of the voters are motivated to get out and vote?
I'd guess the Yes ones are the more driven ones and slightly more likely to vote, while the No are happier with the status quo and might be more apathetic.
It could be worth a couple of % points in the end.
Opinion polls supposedly put a weighting on the likelihood of the person being polled actually voting. But it can hardly be scientific.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 17, 2014, 01:01:14 PM
Spotted the saltire flying from a house in a nationalist area near an interface area.  ::)

As much as it tells a tale about how we goad with flags in this country....I couldn't help but smile
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: weareros on September 17, 2014, 01:12:34 PM
This quote from Bill Clinton highlights all the BS the Yes side have to put up with.

"Because the independence vote is a decision for the Scots alone to make, and because Scots are already legendary for their independence of mind, I have been reluctant to express my views on the matter. I hope my decision to do so will be received in the spirit of friendship with which it is offered," Clinton said in a statement released through the Better Together campaign.

Oh yeah, not interfering in a statement released through Better Together Campaign.

Add to this the bias of the BBC, the British media at large, world politicians (Obama, Barrosa etc), the portrayals of Scottish Nationalism = bad, British Nationalism = Unity.

Hopefully, the younger generation of Scots will prevail tomorrow. And if they do, watch them become a modern and prosperous Northern European country.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 17, 2014, 02:03:59 PM
Why would anyone expect the BBC to even be remotely neutral in this? They are the 'British' Broadcasting Corporation, and receive significant License Fees from Scotland. I know they should be objective and unbiased, as part of their broadcasting remit, but Jaysus I'd be shocked if these turkeys didn't try and vote Christmas out.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 17, 2014, 02:14:24 PM
In fairness Bill Clinton is a private citizen these days. His intervention is far more appropriate than that of Barack Obama or Tony Abbott. And the latter would have succeeded in driving people into the Yes camp with his croppy-lie-down comments (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28814936).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 02:18:42 PM
7am result will be known - some amount of Scots one way or the other pished by lunchtime on Friday.  ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 17, 2014, 02:23:33 PM
At the bookies, the continuation of the UK is less certain than the outcome of the Armagh Championship with 3 games to go. This is a good day on 2 counts.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 02:26:28 PM
Is that the Armagh championship for the next decade!!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 17, 2014, 03:15:05 PM
In fairness Bill Clinton is a private citizen these days. His intervention is far more appropriate than that of Barack Obama or Tony Abbott. And the latter would have succeeded in driving people into the Yes camp with his croppy-lie-down comments (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-28814936).

"Shadow international development secretary Jim Murphy played down Mr Abbott's remarks.
The Labour MP, who was campaigning for Better Together in Clydebank, told BBC Scotland that Australians were "famously outspoken and famously direct"

almost as bad as Dutch people but they kept their noses out of the debate
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 17, 2014, 03:35:30 PM
Thursday night, Friday morning in my gaff:




(Be grateful there's no such thing as Smell-o-Gif)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Armaghgeddon on September 17, 2014, 04:32:55 PM
It is obvious that all these big companies are scaremongering becuase if Scotland does go it alone the big companies are the ones that will lose out, they don't care about the people of Scotland they care about their profits.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Agent Orange on September 17, 2014, 04:35:20 PM
4 opinion polls in the last 24 hours:

Survation: Yes 48% No 52%
ICM: Yes 48% No 52%
Opinium: Yes 48% No 52%
Panelbase: Yes 48% No 52%
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 17, 2014, 04:38:31 PM
4 opinion polls in the last 24 hours:

Survation: Yes 48% No 52%
ICM: Yes 48% No 52%
Opinium: Yes 48% No 52%
Panelbase: Yes 48% No 52%

Margin of error, 4% no?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Agent Orange on September 17, 2014, 04:40:23 PM
4 opinion polls in the last 24 hours:

Survation: Yes 48% No 52%
ICM: Yes 48% No 52%
Opinium: Yes 48% No 52%
Panelbase: Yes 48% No 52%

Margin of error, 4% no?


Aye
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 17, 2014, 04:46:43 PM
There are still a lot of undecideds. All to play for in the final soundbytes - which is what will surely sway anyone who hasn't been able to decide until this stage.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 17, 2014, 04:52:49 PM
I'd imagine if you are undecided at this stage you're more likely to vote No.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Billys Boots on September 17, 2014, 04:53:08 PM
Quote
All to play for in the final soundbytes

Wow, that's depressing.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Armaghgeddon on September 17, 2014, 04:53:23 PM
An online bookmaker is so confident of a win for the No camp it has already started paying out to those who staked money on it. Betfair said it was paying out a ‘six-figure sum’ despite the polls narrowing. It said gambling patterns indicate a 79 per cent likelihood of a No vote.

- Vote yes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: general_lee on September 17, 2014, 05:11:41 PM
It's a crying shame that BT seem to be shading it.

I will be extremely surprised (and delighted) if the Yes camp makes a late surge and gets over the line. Unfortunately bookies tend to get these things right.

Either way, around half of Scots are going to get the exact opposite of what they want which is a tragedy in itself.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 17, 2014, 05:14:28 PM
Interesting times. In 20 years these Islands will be composed of Scotland (GDP er capita €33000, England (GDP per capita £27000, Wales (GDP per capita  €28000), Ireland (GDP per capita €45000) and Larnia (capital Newtownabbey, GDP per capita 150,000,000 Carsons = £15,000).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 17, 2014, 05:58:33 PM
Latest Ipsos/Mori commissioned by STV

Yes 49% No 51%
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: T Fearon on September 17, 2014, 08:36:09 PM
The odds on a Scottish No vote are not as short as  Dublin's were against Donegal.Anything can happen
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 17, 2014, 08:50:52 PM
An online bookmaker is so confident of a win for the No camp it has already started paying out to those who staked money on it. Betfair said it was paying out a ‘six-figure sum’ despite the polls narrowing. It said gambling patterns indicate a 79 per cent likelihood of a No vote.

- Vote yes.

Owned by a major Tory Donor. More favours being called in. Buttons paid out to try and change the momentum.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 17, 2014, 08:51:45 PM
An online bookmaker is so confident of a win for the No camp it has already started paying out to those who staked money on it. Betfair said it was paying out a ‘six-figure sum’ despite the polls narrowing. It said gambling patterns indicate a 79 per cent likelihood of a No vote.

- Vote yes.

Owned by a major Tory Donor. More favours being called in. Buttons paid out to try and change the momentum.

Did they push the odds of a Yes way out?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 17, 2014, 08:53:53 PM
Think the No vote will win narrowly but Jesus, Mary & Joseph I would love to see the reaction if Yes prevails.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 17, 2014, 09:15:39 PM
Yes campaigners on Twitter, particularly the socialists and greens, are very confident. Could be bluff and bluster but is odd not to show any doubt.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 17, 2014, 09:21:26 PM
Think the No vote will win narrowly but Jesus, Mary & Joseph I would love to see the reaction if Yes prevails.

89% here agree with you!  :D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 17, 2014, 09:28:05 PM
Salmond giving some speech live on BBC and Sky News at the moment.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 10:21:24 PM
Salmond giving some speech live on BBC and Sky News at the moment.

Salmond is a tool of tools but like Kenny said - I will love it if we beat them! Love it!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Minder on September 17, 2014, 10:22:33 PM
Salmond giving some speech live on BBC and Sky News at the moment.

Salmond is a tool of tools but like Kenny said - I will love it if we beat them! Love it!

Kenny Keegan ?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Windmill abu on September 17, 2014, 10:36:39 PM
I work with a staunch unionist, he is an absolute gentleman and has no problem discussing politics when the topic arises, without taking a  siege mentality position. I asked him today if the referendum went in favour of the yes vote, would he in the future align himself with the Scottish or English side of the split.

He said that he hoped that the vote would be no. But if it went the other way, then a lot of his ancestors came from Scotland and he would associate himself with them more than the English.

If his point of view was replicated across mainstream unionism, this would seriously weaken the GB & NI Union which currently exists.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: T Fearon on September 17, 2014, 10:40:28 PM
Does anyone think if there was a referendum in the six counties,Cameron,Clegg,Miliband et al would be over pleading for a No vote?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 17, 2014, 10:50:03 PM
I think whatever happens politics in TAFKA the UK will never be the same again. Big issues for Ulster Unionism coming down the tracks. New situation.

Cameron misjudged the mood when he defined the terms of the vote as well. There have been some very interesting insights during the last few week 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/aa365d5e-38e5-11e4-a53b-00144feabdc0.html

The charge sheet against Mr Cameron includes his decision that only “full independence” should be placed on the ballot paper, rather than an additional “devo max” option, and giving the vote to schoolchildren but not to Scots living beyond the country’s borders.
Lord Lester, a Liberal Democrat peer and barrister who was special adviser on constitutional reform to Gordon Brown when he was prime minister, said: “It was Cameron’s failure to allow that second question [on the ballot] – and Labour’s to press for it – that has led to this situation. There is only one question and it is not the right question – and it is an extremely dangerous question. If answered Yes, it is going to lead to the weakening of Scotland and the UK.”

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/01079330-377b-11e4-bd0a-00144feabdc0.html
“Everybody has been focusing on geopolitics, with issues in the Ukraine and the Middle East . . . but this is the one thing they were not looking at,” said Russ Koesterich, chief investment strategist at BlackRock, the largest global fund manager.
“Up until now this was not on the radar of many investors, certainly not in the US, and if it was people assumed this vote would not pass. If the Yes vote passes, then investors would have to accept a prolonged period of uncertainty for UK assets, from the currency to gilts to equities.”


http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/df8e3328-34df-11e4-ba5d-00144feabdc0.html

The UK is not an immutable fact of nature; it is a human design that can be undesigned when the circumstances that gave rise to it no longer obtain. The break-up of the union would be sad and a practical ordeal that would suck up years of work in both Westminster and Holyrood. But it would not be an aberration. Historical forces make it explicable.
The coward’s way out is to avoid dwelling on the underlying trends that have chipped away at the union for half a century, and to blame a few campaign chiefs instead. This is a lousy way of understanding what is happening in Scotland, and an even worse way of preparing for political movements to come.
Trends point to the rise of English nationalism – already here in the disguised form of the UK Independence party – and demands by London for more autonomy. Our obsession with the particular and the personal will blind us to these forces until they strike us in the face.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/scotland-referendum-britain-independence-vote
Regardless of the referendum outcome, the campaign has proved a catastrophic failure for Labour. It is no longer an effective vehicle for democracy and social justice in one of its oldest heartlands. Its vote has collapsed. The word most commonly used in conjunction with Labour is ‘corrupt’.
As an Atlantic archipelago of islands on the edge of Europe, we have far more in common with each other than not, and do not necessarily need a political union to make that a reality. What we will need is new institutions of collaboration across the nations and regions of the isles.
It’s a dramatic redrafting of the story of Britain. In recent decades, it has been self-evident that the Britain of empire and monarchy, of army and church, is history. Britishness has historically been seen as an export, more about how to project ourselves on to the world than how we want to live together. Attempts to revitalise Britishness by claiming human values, such as fair play, rang hollow. The Better Together campaign has been dogged with the absence of any emotionally resonant vision of Britain to articulate as a defence of union.
This idea of Britain is already lost regardless of 18 September’s verdict. That much is commonplace. The point, then, is what you do about it. England will have to find its way to a new relationship, one among equals with the other nations that share these British islands.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/10/scottish-independence-effing-tories-pariah-devolution
The deeper source of decline was when the Tory party role as a Protestant party of the Union and Empire waned in the early 1960s. It steadily lost the skilled Protestant working class, as Britishness and sectarianism lost their appeal, while its Clydeside industrial class leaders were replaced by anglicised lairds and aristocrats. As the Scottish middle classes abandoned the cities, Labour consolidated its hold on urban Scotland while retaining the loyalty of the Catholic working class.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/11/not-just-scotland-politics-as-usual-finished-falkirk-clacton-disaffected
In the broadcast media in particular, there is an implied assumption that “the Scotland moment” is something confined to that country. But the reality across the UK suggests something much deeper and wider, and a simple enough fact: that what is happening north of the border is the most spectacular manifestation of a phenomenon taking root all over – indeed, if the splintering of politics and the rise of new forces on both left and right across Europe are anything to go by, a set of developments not defined by specific national circumstances, but profound social and economic ruptures.  ....in such diverse places as Clacton-on-Sea, the Rhondda valley and the central Scottish industrial belt, I have recently heard exactly the same stuff: anguished talk of insecurity, the decline of people’s towns (a massively overlooked aspect of the public mood), their fears for their children’s futures, and the sense that cosseted politicians know nothing of their lives, nor ever will. Younger people tend to this last point as the natural state of things and either talk about the new alternatives, or admit to no interest in politics at all; older people voice their feelings with a profound sense of betrayal.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 17, 2014, 10:58:35 PM
Does anyone think if there was a referendum in the six counties,Cameron,Clegg,Miliband et al would be over pleading for a No vote?

Why would you care - sure the Vatican rules you.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ONeill on September 17, 2014, 11:02:08 PM
Prediction:

No 55
Yes 45
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: rrhf on September 17, 2014, 11:11:29 PM
I think the yes vote will fall slightly leaving a 60 40 or stronger split. An honourable defeat is the outcome.
Salmond to end up as a peer.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 17, 2014, 11:18:47 PM
So Scotland to get all these 'extra powers' - even though I wouldn't hold my breath, and to become more independent anyway if they vote no??
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Aaron Boone on September 17, 2014, 11:32:05 PM
I predict a draw 50:50, UK to remain intact.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: WT4E on September 17, 2014, 11:37:15 PM
Just tuned in to some news on this:

I was amazed by the two differing speeches brown was scaremongering and desperate; salmon appeared calm and reassured! Think could have an effect on fence sitters!

As I heard recently : why would anyone not want to govern themselves????
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Main Street on September 17, 2014, 11:38:58 PM
Molly Bloom says yes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: andoireabu on September 17, 2014, 11:41:57 PM
If it doesn't pass how long do they have to wait until they try again? If it's as close as the polls suggest I can't see the 'yes' side giving up and going away.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: macdanger2 on September 17, 2014, 11:45:18 PM
Heard on radio 1 earlier that there won't be a recount on this regardless of how close it is - seems strange. That wouldn't preclude a legal challenge requesting a recount though
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 17, 2014, 11:54:35 PM
I'll swing with Tommy Sheridan and predict independence for Scotland on 53%. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 12:01:18 AM
There are apparently more than 10% undecided. I think the waverers will swing to Yes. I think tonight's TV was overwhelmingly persuasive towards Yes. And the polls are not counting the newly registered, who will be massively Yes.

Narrow Yes is my prediction.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Shamrock Shore on September 18, 2014, 12:13:33 AM



If the referendum fails here's the GPO in Edinburgh if anyone's interested.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 12:38:14 AM
Whatever happens tomorrow, I can safely say that the No campaign has been the most pathetic, negative and downright incompetent political campaign I've ever seen, and that includes the Yes campaign in Lisbon I here and recent Republican campaigns in the US.

It would be fooking amazing to see them suffer the humiliating defeat they so richly deserve.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on September 18, 2014, 01:49:11 AM
Molly Bloom says yes.

But does she mean it?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Bud Wiser on September 18, 2014, 03:54:45 AM
http://youtu.be/DD9Qs6bXlmU

Hope over Fear. I think this is brilliant and its causing a bit of a stir on FB etc.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggy90 on September 18, 2014, 06:21:33 AM
Whatever happens tomorrow, I can safely say that the No campaign has been the most pathetic, negative and downright incompetent political campaign I've ever seen, and that includes the Yes campaign in Lisbon I here and recent Republican campaigns in the US.

It would be fooking amazing to see them suffer the humiliating defeat they so richly deserve.

Makes you wonder why?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2014, 07:08:04 AM
Some people are saying if Yes prevails, next on the agenda will be a united Ireland. I couldn't see it myself, too much of a mess to clean up in the north first and that job has barely begun. My money would be on Wales going next.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on September 18, 2014, 07:57:05 AM
It will be a no. When it comes to the crunch in the booth they will chicken out
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 18, 2014, 08:08:47 AM
The well paid higher tax bracket group will be critical. How many will vote ethically and how many will vote selfishly. A more fairer society relies on someone taking the hit.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: cicfada on September 18, 2014, 08:10:30 AM
Will be a no vote in the end all right, the scare tactics will make most of the undecideds stay with the "safe" option. A pity but when there's been nothing but a constant stream of threats and warnings from financial institutions, establishment politicians and 95% of the media in the last 2 weeks then what other outcome could be expected? I presume that there won't be another referendum on this matter in our lifetime anyway ? ( 50 years)??
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: HiMucker on September 18, 2014, 08:12:56 AM
That's what I thought the last few weeks.  But I dunno now!  The yes campaign have wiped the floor with the no in any debate, discussion, or light hearted panel show I have watched.  The audiences always seem more yes leaning.  I think I read that there will be 300k voters under 18 who the polls have largely ignored who will not chicken out and will vote resoundingly yes.  Watching the "the great British breakup" last night swayed me enough to put a wager on yes winning.   It's going to be very tight but I think the scots realise they are on the cusp of something great.  Will they take their chance?  I think they will.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 18, 2014, 08:16:17 AM
Heard on radio 1 earlier that there won't be a recount on this regardless of how close it is - seems strange. That wouldn't preclude a legal challenge requesting a recount though
Think I read somewhere each counting sector (which are Council areas - of which there are 32) has a right to one recount.

Agree with the patheticness of the No campaign, shambolic. Yes could sneak it, but it is more likely the undecideds are Nos because it's not as 'cool' & the genuine fear of intimidation.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 18, 2014, 08:21:15 AM
The well paid higher tax bracket group will be critical. How many will vote ethically and how many will vote selfishly. A more fairer society relies on someone taking the hit.
In a straight headcount they are no more important that a Dole claimant, who in this case would most certainly outnumber them. Plus the SNP have been known to be called the real Scottish Tories, so it should be their natural support base.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ludermor on September 18, 2014, 08:22:54 AM
Some people are saying if Yes prevails, next on the agenda will be a united Ireland. I couldn't see it myself, too much of a mess to clean up in the north first and that job has barely begun. My money would be on Wales going next.
Id say there is more hope of the Isle of Man breaking away, the Welsh seems quite content with there lot .
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 18, 2014, 08:31:44 AM
It will be a no. When it comes to the crunch in the booth they will chicken out
They don't have the same attitude as Irish people - or do they?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 08:39:57 AM
Some people are saying if Yes prevails, next on the agenda will be a united Ireland. I couldn't see it myself, too much of a mess to clean up in the north first and that job has barely begun. My money would be on Wales going next.
Id say there is more hope of the Isle of Man breaking away, the Welsh seems quite content with there lot .

Exactly. Wales seem quite content with their position as a part of Britain, albeit with strong cultural identity. They are the best of the Celts in terms of language, but the least inclined towards independence. They are a principality technically, I think, and seem quite happy with that.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 18, 2014, 08:42:23 AM
Does anyone think if there was a referendum in the six counties,Cameron,Clegg,Miliband et al would be over pleading for a No vote?

No, I'd think they'd be over pleading for a Yes vote!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 18, 2014, 08:47:59 AM
Prediction:

No 55
Yes 45

I think the no could be higher - as someone else alluded to the No's have been quiet probably because of fear of intimidation.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 18, 2014, 09:00:03 AM
Prediction:

No 55
Yes 45

I think the no could be higher - as someone else alluded to the No's have been quiet probably because of fear of intimidation.

I'm going for No to prevail in the region of 55%/45% +-2%.  I think a lot of "heart" Yes voters will crap themselves in the voting booth.  Though Andy Murray coming out for Yes might sway a few undecided tennis club members!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 18, 2014, 09:01:03 AM
http://andymurrayometer.com/ (http://andymurrayometer.com/)

This fella might need to update his page. Hopefully 100% swing.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/scottish-independence-andy-murray-backs-the-yes-campaign-in-eleventh-hour-decision-9739784.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/scottish-independence-andy-murray-backs-the-yes-campaign-in-eleventh-hour-decision-9739784.html)

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 18, 2014, 09:25:17 AM
Some people are saying if Yes prevails, next on the agenda will be a united Ireland. I couldn't see it myself, too much of a mess to clean up in the north first and that job has barely begun. My money would be on Wales going next.
Id say there is more hope of the Isle of Man breaking away, the Welsh seems quite content with there lot .

Point of order but the Isle of Man are not part of the UK so they've nothing to break away from. The UK represents it in foreign affairs but to all intents and purpose they are independent.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Bensars on September 18, 2014, 09:45:45 AM
I think the Yes could sneak this. After 10 days of operation "fear" and the support or to some degree bias of all the major media outlets, the scaremongering, the supermarkets, all daves political allies across the world etc etc  the latest polls are showing that the Yes vote could be within touching distance. 52% vs 48%.

Seen on twitter last night someone within conservative party ( cant remember who) stating  a week or more ago, that if the Yes vote were around high 40% mark come election day that you could say goodbye to the United Kingdom.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ulick on September 18, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
I know it's only anecdotal and everything by the #indyref tag on Twitter is something to behold. If it was representative it would be a landslide for Yes. People coming out crying after voting with the emotion of it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 18, 2014, 10:39:33 AM
Sign at Gretna


Voters queuing


Clegg's pledges

,

Scotland's Facebook Status

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ardtole on September 18, 2014, 10:42:41 AM
I would love to see a yes vote tomorrow morning. Il be sitting up tonight to see the voting patterns emerge, i see PP have moved the yes vote out to 7/2, I might have a small bet after work today. I can imagine the unionists in the North are sick in their stomachs with worry today, hopefully the scots will grasp this opportunity. Ive been following the campaign for the last two weeks and the yes supporters seem to me to have a real momentum with them. I was suprised their odds drifted out to 7/2 with Paddy Power they usually know whats going on but I hope they are wrong this time.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 18, 2014, 10:51:05 AM
https://twitter.com/ecruden/status/512495518644441089/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/ecruden/status/512495518644441089/photo/1)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 18, 2014, 10:56:11 AM
I think this is going to at least 47-53 for No. I'm not convinced by arguments that the polling is not sampling the right voters or that they have no reference point because there has been nothing like this before. The science of polling has come a long way since the 1992 general election in Britain and they've gotten the numbers consistently right since then. And that election contains a lesson - that a lot of people are reluctant to admit they are voting for the status quo. Oh, in public they moan about the Tories and how much they hate the establishment and someone needs to give them a good kick up the arse. But when it comes to the privacy of the polling booth, their courage will fail them. Hope I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:03:10 AM
I think a referendum like this would have to be well ahead in preliminary polls for it to be actually carried. It's a huge change, and would need a lot of residual support to get it through the last minute wavering and the cold feet.

I suspect 56-44 to the No side.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 11:20:41 AM
I heard some media analyst on Newstalk this morning saying that social media have been much closer to the actual outcome than the market research polls in the last referendum here and that based on volume of tweets, Twitter is predicting a Yes outcome.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:24:42 AM
Who tweets? Younger ones. Who would be more inclined to vote to keep the status quo? I'd guess older ones. We'll just have to see I suppose. Any exit polls or anything like that?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Feckitt on September 18, 2014, 11:26:24 AM
I heard some media analyst on Newstalk this morning saying that social media have been much closer to the actual outcome than the market research polls in the last referendum here and that based on volume of tweets, Twitter is predicting a Yes outcome.

The last few Irish referendums have had zero interest outside of Ireland, so you are looking at Irish tweets and FB messages only.  However the Scottish referendum has had huge interest outside of Scotland, and most Irish people for example would be urging a yes vote.  This could skew the social media figures.  I hope I'm wrong though and that Hardy's man is right!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:26:30 AM
Paddy Power has No at 5/1 on. Yes is 7/2.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Feckitt on September 18, 2014, 11:28:22 AM
What time tonight should the TV stations be able to call it one way or another.  They keep talking about the result being about 5 or 6 Friday morning but if I stay up, will i get a pretty clear idea by midnight?  1.00?  2am?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 11:28:37 AM
Who tweets? Younger ones. Who would be more inclined to vote to keep the status quo? I'd guess older ones. We'll just have to see I suppose. Any exit polls or anything like that?

Yeah - he went into all that and still came down on the Yes side.

I was wondering about exit polls. I don't think the media are allowed to publish exit polls until after voting. But what would stop RTÉ from publishing one? They're not subject to UK law.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:29:02 AM
Who tweets? Younger ones. Who would be more inclined to vote to keep the status quo? I'd guess older ones. We'll just have to see I suppose. Any exit polls or anything like that?

Yeah - he went into all that and still came down on the Yes side.

I was wondering about exit polls. I don't think the media are allowed to publish exit polls until after voting. But what would stop RTÉ from publishing one? They're not subject to UK law.

And sure maybe Scotland won't be either :)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 11:33:18 AM
What time tonight should the TV stations be able to call it one way or another.  They keep talking about the result being about 5 or 6 Friday morning but if I stay up, will i get a pretty clear idea by midnight?  1.00?  2am?

I think the issue here is that the "Yes" proportion might differ in different regions. Some of the areas with smaller population will declare first and these might be strong "Yes" areas. Glasgow will declare much later and Labour is strong there.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 18, 2014, 11:33:55 AM
Who tweets? Younger ones. Who would be more inclined to vote to keep the status quo? I'd guess older ones. We'll just have to see I suppose. Any exit polls or anything like that?

Yeah - he went into all that and still came down on the Yes side.

I was wondering about exit polls. I don't think the media are allowed to publish exit polls until after voting. But what would stop RTÉ from publishing one? They're not subject to UK law.

I'm inclined towards the Mandy Rice-Davies view of 'media analysts' and the power of Twitter. Then again, I hope he's right!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 18, 2014, 11:38:03 AM
What time tonight should the TV stations be able to call it one way or another.  They keep talking about the result being about 5 or 6 Friday morning but if I stay up, will i get a pretty clear idea by midnight?  1.00?  2am?

No.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 11:39:08 AM
What time tonight should the TV stations be able to call it one way or another.  They keep talking about the result being about 5 or 6 Friday morning but if I stay up, will i get a pretty clear idea by midnight?  1.00?  2am?

I think the issue here is that the "Yes" proportion might differ in different regions. Some of the areas with smaller population will declare first and these might be strong "Yes" areas. Glasgow will declare much later and Labour is strong there.
Labour has never been more out of touch with its traditional base. Glasgow will be a strong No, I'd imagine.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:40:12 AM
If it's a strong No, then it will align with the Labour leadership.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: haranguerer on September 18, 2014, 11:44:46 AM
What time tonight should the TV stations be able to call it one way or another.  They keep talking about the result being about 5 or 6 Friday morning but if I stay up, will i get a pretty clear idea by midnight?  1.00?  2am?

Go to bed, it'll be the same result in the morning
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 11:46:39 AM
Jaysus.  Lack of sleep. ???

Glasgow will be be a strong Yes, I meant, obviously.  ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 18, 2014, 11:54:36 AM
If it's a strong No, then it will align with the Labour leadership.

With thon Milliband lad, surely thats an oxymoron!

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 11:55:27 AM
Sorry, "Leadership".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Owenmoresider on September 18, 2014, 12:36:31 PM
Paddy Power has No at 5/1 on. Yes is 7/2.
Surprised PP hasn't done their usual publicity stunt of paying out early yet. Probably announce it straight at 10pm otherwise.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyCake on September 18, 2014, 12:47:08 PM
If it's a strong No, then it will align with the Labour leadership.

With thon Milliband lad, surely thats an oxymoron!

Which one? Steve or Glenn?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: passedit on September 18, 2014, 01:24:16 PM
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/independence-referendum-vicious-internet-troll-4280094 (http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/independence-referendum-vicious-internet-troll-4280094)


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 18, 2014, 01:35:23 PM
Will Harry 8 be spending a bit of time at Her Majesties pleasure for those comments?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 18, 2014, 01:43:47 PM
Those tweets have vanished (https://twitter.com/sportingharry). No doubt his account was hacked.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 18, 2014, 01:55:03 PM
Those tweets have vanished (https://twitter.com/sportingharry). No doubt his account was hacked.

They haven't, you need to click on the tweets and replies tab.

I stand corrected. Still expecting "my account was hacked" though.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ludermor on September 18, 2014, 01:55:23 PM
Those tweets have vanished (https://twitter.com/sportingharry). No doubt his account was hacked.
He is a classy guy based on his tweets of the 10th April...
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 18, 2014, 01:59:51 PM
Those tweets have vanished (https://twitter.com/sportingharry). No doubt his account was hacked.
He is a classy guy based on his tweets of the 10th April...

I'm beginning to wonder whether that's a meat puppet account I set up while sleep-walking to make my enemies look bad!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 02:17:16 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 18, 2014, 02:22:53 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?

This is true democracy at work, not those general elections where you get to vote for various parties who either have no say whatsoever in running the place or are just mirror images of one another.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hound on September 18, 2014, 02:26:52 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?
Anything over 80% would be extraordinary.

But not sure it helps the Yes.
All the bookies are still broadly in agreement. No 1/5, Yes 7/2.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: TF15 on September 18, 2014, 02:35:05 PM
It'll disappoint me when the Scots bottle it and a 'No Vote' wins. Media stoking it up closer than it is as it makes good TV.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 02:35:24 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?

You'd like to think that an issue like this would bring out the vote. At the end of the day they are voting for their status as a country. I'm not sure if it favours Yes. Surely No voters would be just as motivated, out of fear, to come out and protect the Union?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 02:35:35 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?
Anything over 80% would be extraordinary.

But not sure it helps the Yes.
All the bookies are still broadly in agreement. No 1/5, Yes 7/2.
Why wouldn't it help Yes? Turnout is usually lower in lower socio-economic areas. People in these areas are surely more likely to vote Yes if they do vote. If the turnout in these areas is high, and it looks like it is, it has to help the Yes vote.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 02:37:48 PM
If there was a vote in Northern Ireland only, where the proposal was to unite with the Republic of Ireland, would a high turnout be seen as good for the Yes campaign?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 02:45:51 PM
I haven't heard the possible effects of the huge turnout discussed. An amazing 90% is being predicted. I would have thought that would strongly favour Yes. Do we know if this is factored into the poll predictions?
Anything over 80% would be extraordinary.

But not sure it helps the Yes.
All the bookies are still broadly in agreement. No 1/5, Yes 7/2.
Why wouldn't it help Yes? Turnout is usually lower in lower socio-economic areas. People in these areas are surely more likely to vote Yes if they do vote. If the turnout in these areas is high, and it looks like it is, it has to help the Yes vote.

That's it - why I assumed a high turnout favours Yes.

If there was a vote in Northern Ireland only, where the proposal was to unite with the Republic of Ireland, would a high turnout be seen as good for the Yes campaign?

No. I'd think it would mean the opposite in that case, as there are probably more people who don't habitually use their franchise who would be on the No side in that one. That's my speculation anyway.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 02:49:52 PM
The Yes price is drifting slightly on Betfair since this morning 5.7 out to 5.9.

The bookies'/exchange prices, however, don't represent any prescience on the part of bookies, as in "the bookies are seldom wrong". It's a market. It reflects the opinions of the participants in the market, i.e. the weight of money on each side. In the case of an election/referendum, I'd guess that's influenced most by the published opinion polls, just as our speculation here is.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 02:50:32 PM
It'll disappoint me when the Scots bottle it and a 'No Vote' wins. Media stoking it up closer than it is as it makes good TV.

I think it is like the Mayo - Kerry game, the referee wasn't fair and there should be replay until the right result to obtained.

Quote
Quote from: AZOffaly on Today at 02:37:48 PM

    If there was a vote in Northern Ireland only, where the proposal was to unite with the Republic of Ireland, would a high turnout be seen as good for the Yes campaign?

No. I'd think it would mean the opposite in that case, as there are probably more people who don't habitually use their franchise who would be on the No side in that one. That's my speculation anyway.

leave Milltown out of it, Scotland is different.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2014, 05:28:05 PM
Aren't bookies already paying out on a No vote?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 07:00:51 PM
Still trading on Betfair if you want a punt, no is still 1.18.
The markets there suggest a Turnout prediction in the mid 80s.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ardtole on September 18, 2014, 07:23:33 PM
I stuck €20 on boylesports for a yes vote at 4/1. Hopefully cover the beer on Sunday.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ONeill on September 18, 2014, 07:42:54 PM
Changed my mind. Instead of 55% no I think closer to 60
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 18, 2014, 08:09:50 PM
Changed my mind. Instead of 55% no I think closer to 60

Ah'll no baither votin' then Wullie
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 18, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
I think Yes might sneak it. All depends on turnout.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 18, 2014, 08:26:46 PM
The Yes price is drifting slightly on Betfair since this morning 5.7 out to 5.9.

The bookies'/exchange prices, however, don't represent any prescience on the part of bookies, as in "the bookies are seldom wrong". It's a market. It reflects the opinions of the participants in the market, i.e. the weight of money on each side. In the case of an election/referendum, I'd guess that's influenced most by the published opinion polls, just as our speculation here is.

Still drifting - 6.2
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 18, 2014, 08:33:46 PM
No camp (and O'Neill) predicting 58 - 42 "win"
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 18, 2014, 09:08:24 PM
F*ck's sake, democracy is horrible - this is like trying to follow a Cup Final penalty shootout on a radio with a dodgy signal.

I have no idea what will happen, I'm swinging from hope and elation to despair and fear, as I see the various posts on Twitter and Facebook from folk who have voted.

It comes down to this, which side of the Scots psyche is stronger: "ach, f*ck it, let's dae this" or "we'll pay for this" ?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 09:27:52 PM
Quote
No camp (and O'Neill) predicting 58 - 42 "win"

The odds haven't swung much, so the "wisdom of crowds" does not suggest such a large margin. 
There are no tallymen, apparently, so hard to get a feel for things after 10pm. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Aaron Boone on September 18, 2014, 09:31:58 PM
If anyone's in Ballycastle, are you getting any vibe from across the water?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyHarp on September 18, 2014, 10:19:51 PM
Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 18, 2014, 10:21:56 PM
Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.
;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Minder on September 18, 2014, 10:25:27 PM
Looking like a comprehensive win for "No"
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: glens abu on September 18, 2014, 10:26:17 PM
Looking like a comprehensive win for "No"

What makes you say that?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: The Worker on September 18, 2014, 10:28:43 PM
No 53

Yes 47
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maurice Moss on September 18, 2014, 10:29:13 PM
It probably has already been asked and answered on here but ifthe result is a no result, when would be the next time an independence referendum could possibly take place?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Minder on September 18, 2014, 10:32:00 PM
Final YouGov poll -

No 56 Yes 44
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 18, 2014, 10:32:29 PM
First exit poll

YouGov @YouGov  ·  29s
YouGov #IndyRef prediction: YES 46%, NO 54% - http://y-g.co/1mjwlQz
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 10:34:29 PM
There must be some sort of exit poll, odds for "No" have dropped somewhat, with "Yes" now 7/1 or more. Close, perhaps, but no cigar.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Minder on September 18, 2014, 10:35:16 PM
There must be some sort of exit poll, odds for "No" have dropped somewhat, with "Yes" now 7/1 or more. Close, perhaps, but no cigar.

There is no exit poll
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 18, 2014, 10:36:11 PM
There must be some sort of exit poll, odds for "No" have dropped somewhat, with "Yes" now 7/1 or more. Close, perhaps, but no cigar.

There is no exit poll
Well there's the YouGov poll, contacting people after they've voted, which is as close as we'll get apparently.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 18, 2014, 10:37:07 PM
If that poll is correct, then I suppose the status quo remains.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ludermor on September 18, 2014, 10:39:08 PM
If that poll is correct, then I suppose the status quo remains.
with the new powers promised to Scotland it will be no status quo.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 18, 2014, 10:39:35 PM
If that poll is correct, then I suppose the status quo remains.
That's the kind of sharp insight we need around here!
 :P
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 18, 2014, 10:42:40 PM
If that poll is correct, then I suppose the status quo remains.
That's the kind of sharp insight we need around here!
 :P
Haha, I just thought to myself after I posted that, Jesus any hoor could come up with that statement! :D

If that poll is correct, then I suppose the status quo remains.
with the new powers promised to Scotland it will be no status quo.
Promised being the key word. They may not get any!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: dec on September 18, 2014, 10:54:29 PM
Latest Paddy Power odds

Against Independence (Fail)
1/16
   
For Independence (Pass)
13/2
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 18, 2014, 10:57:04 PM
I said 56-44. It may be more comfortable than that.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 11:09:07 PM
I propose Stockholm Syndrome be renamed "Scotland Syndrome".

Only for the men of '16 we'd have been subjected to those c***ts Bruton and Geldof telling the Irish we were "better together" over the last month. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on September 18, 2014, 11:09:49 PM
The poll has to be taken lightly in this race, so unique are the events. Im still going slight no, but like everyone, who knows?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 18, 2014, 11:20:34 PM
The poll has to be taken lightly in this race, so unique are the events. Im still going slight no, but like everyone, who knows?
Give it up. The writing is on Hadrian's Wall.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 18, 2014, 11:39:29 PM
The good guys have lost - we just weren't ready for the media onslaught in the last 2 weeks.  :-\
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 18, 2014, 11:41:34 PM
The poll has to be taken lightly in this race, so unique are the events. Im still going slight no, but like everyone, who knows?
Give it up. The writing is on Hadrian's Wall.

Hadrian's Wall is in England. This is what the thing is all about, getting instructions from England.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 12:07:43 AM
I wouldn't underestimate Plaid Cymru. Some clever people in there. Ever see Paxman thinking he was going to walk over a Welsh nationalist only to have his ass handed to him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gy7f8vP2QY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gy7f8vP2QY)

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 19, 2014, 01:25:31 AM
In a parallel world:

Former Prime Minister Lord Bruton of Boyneside and Sir Bob Geldof have made impassioned pleas for Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom ahead of Friday's referendum on whether Ireland should secede.

"We've fought two World Wars together, and we've been part of the greatest and most successful political union the world has ever seen. It would be tragic to throw away almost 850 years of shared history", said Lord Bruton, who served as Prime Minister from 1990 to 1997 and Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1982 to 1990, and is best remembered for his imposition of the infamous "poll tax" on Ireland, even after it had been dropped in the rest of the Union.

"Ireland is a feeling", said Geldof, in a speech at a rally at the John Redmond Cenotaph in Dublin's Sackville Street, which was also attended by Irish First Minister Enda Kenny and Prime Minister David Cameron.

Geldof has been joined by other famous names from the entertainment world, such as U2's Bono, BBC Ireland's Gay Byrne and Terry Wogan, and ITV Ireland's Ryan Tubridy in calling for a No vote.

Sporting stars such as England and Kilkenny county cricket legend Henry Shefflington, golfer Rory McIlroy, Ireland football star Roy Queen and rugby player Brian O'Driscoll have also been lining up to play their part in the "Better Together" campaign.

Meanwhile former US Open golf champion Graeme McDowell, Ireland cricket captain John Mooney and British Loins rugby captain Sean Cavanagh have been on the receiving end of a tirade of foul-mouthed abuse on Twitter after revealing that they favour independence.

Polls currently show the outcome to be too close to call, but it's thought that a strong Yes vote in areas such as Limerick, Wexford and West Dublin may be cancelled out by similarly strong No votes in Unionist strongholds such as Cork, Kilkenny and Fingal.

The referendum has been played out against a backdrop of controversial issues, such as the location of the UK's Trident Nuclear submarines off the west coast, and the No campaign arguing that revenues from the export of potatoes would be insufficient to run an independent economy. All major national newspapers have called for a No vote, however controversy flared at the weekend after Yes campaign leader Martin McGuinness was compared to Hitler by the Sunday Independent. Irish Times editor Eoghan Harris has said that "separating ourselves from the mainland would be a total disaster".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: weareros on September 19, 2014, 02:58:29 AM
Easy attack Bruton and Geldof but most recent poll shows more Catholics in NI back remaining in UK that joining a UI. And the opinion polls unfortunately look being accurate in the Scotland poll. It's clear people  put the their pennies before their patriotism.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 03:49:53 AM
The only chance for Yes now is Glasgow. Inverclyde is nearby and Yes got 49.92% there, the best result Yes has gotten so far from the 5 counties that have reported.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 03:57:59 AM
Good God Dundee just came in at 57.35% Yes! Yes overall is up to 49.09%! We're back in the game!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maurice Moss on September 19, 2014, 04:02:33 AM
Dundee just announced as first Yes win for Yes campaign, but I don't think it was a big enough win with 57%

Agreed Eamonnca1, the Yes campaign need a large majority win in Glasgow and it does not look likely having seen the Inverclyde results. Glasgow however, has had the lowest turn out from the 32 councils with 75%, but being the largest populated area only time will tell.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 04:56:25 AM
That's it now from Glasgow. Game over.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: DrinkingHarp on September 19, 2014, 05:17:47 AM
With a yes from Edinburgh and Fife that should be it right?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggy90 on September 19, 2014, 06:06:52 AM
F*ck's sake, democracy is horrible - this is like trying to follow a Cup Final penalty shootout on a radio with a dodgy signal.

I have no idea what will happen, I'm swinging from hope and elation to despair and fear, as I see the various posts on Twitter and Facebook from folk who have voted.

It comes down to this, which side of the Scots psyche is stronger: "ach, f*ck it, let's dae this" or "we'll pay for this" ?

Yep.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Never beat the deeler on September 19, 2014, 06:24:36 AM
Interesting to see what happens next:

Quote
2:58pm: From Nick Miller in Edinburgh:
British Prime Minister David Cameron is expected to give a speech in an hour. It's going to be crucial.
Tired Scots who voted Yes will hope for a clear sign their fight was not in vain - that they made enough headway to secure the promise of further devolved powers.
Tired Scots who voted No because of that promise will want to be reassured it will not be walked back or diluted.
But there is a whole lot of banked-up outrage from Conservatives who will ask why Scotland should be given anything more, given they voted to stay with Britain.
And regions such as London and the North will be asking: if Scotland gets more devolved powers, why not us?
Some are tipping this could be the start of a constitutional revolution, with Britain moving to more of a federal model.


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/live-scottish-independence-referendum-result-20140918-3g0tm.html#ixzz3DjhowgCL

From
http://www.smh.com.au/world/live-scottish-independence-referendum-result-20140918-3g0tm.html (http://www.smh.com.au/world/live-scottish-independence-referendum-result-20140918-3g0tm.html)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 19, 2014, 06:26:48 AM
I wouldn't underestimate Plaid Cymru. Some clever people in there. Ever see Paxman thinking he was going to walk over a Welsh nationalist only to have his ass handed to him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gy7f8vP2QY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gy7f8vP2QY)
That was good.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: BennyHarp on September 19, 2014, 07:02:19 AM
The independence supporters handled this all wrong. Alex Salmond should have went to Whitehall and negotiated independence for most of Scotland, perhaps leaving, let's say 6 of their counties under rule from London. I think that situation would have satisfied everyone and led to a lasting and viable future for all.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: rrhf on September 19, 2014, 07:25:43 AM
Take that butchers apron down. Scotland will be free tonight.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 07:45:40 AM
The beginning of a Constitutional revolution & UK politics has been reinvigorated - apart from the dreary steeples of this shithole obviously.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: lawnseed on September 19, 2014, 07:55:30 AM
Theyre "feart"
Afraid of everythimg. Truth is its the english taxpayer who needs to be asked in a referendum whether he/she wants to continue paying for basketcase regions while seeing cuts in services in england. Do the enjoy fleg waving orangies trashing this place every year while they pick up the bill? Is the 'united' "kingdom" more important than basic healthcare in birmingham?
Also if I was  a scot "yes" voter i'd be well pissed at commercial entities eg asda trying to influence voters. We had the same shite here from companies like intel wading into politcal questions during referendi. Its not their place and they should be told to mind their business especially as they enjoy the taxbreaks on offer while the taxpayer here struggles
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ballinaman on September 19, 2014, 07:59:57 AM
They shouldn't be allowed to sing flower of Scotland now...would sound a bit hollow!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: OakleafCounty on September 19, 2014, 08:00:03 AM
Well there you have it. The scaremongering and negativity of the 'Better Together' won. Ultimately I think the next time this comes around the Yes campaign will need to have a concrete plan in place in terms of currency. The ideal I think is that they will have their own currency but they will need to have savings in place to make up the deficit. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 19, 2014, 08:29:41 AM
Theyre "feart"
Afraid of everythimg. Truth is its the english taxpayer who needs to be asked in a referendum whether he/she wants to continue paying for basketcase regions while seeing cuts in services in england. Do the enjoy fleg waving orangies trashing this place every year while they pick up the bill? Is the 'united' "kingdom" more important than basic healthcare in birmingham?
Also if I was  a scot "yes" voter i'd be well pissed at commercial entities eg asda trying to influence voters. We had the same shite here from companies like intel wading into politcal questions during referendi. Its not their place and they should be told to mind their business especially as they enjoy the taxbreaks on offer while the taxpayer here struggles

That's the thing, Scotland isn't a basket case if you take into consideration the tax tax from the same region.
The lack of investment since Thatcher in the northern regions for a services based industry in the South East has caused the disparity seen now, so as much as the Torys complain about the burden from the regions it was very much their own doing.
We're just fecked, due to government subsidised industries used to keep the unionists sweet for all those years, not to mention an over weight civil service.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Tony Baloney on September 19, 2014, 08:40:36 AM
84.6% turnout so can't blame voter apathy. Didn't send them homewards to think again. :-[
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 08:41:49 AM
No vote never in doubt.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 19, 2014, 08:54:06 AM
Those 'Yes' screams...that moment in Braveheart when William Wallace realised he was shopped by his own :'(
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 08:57:33 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 08:58:25 AM
There was a lot of smarm from the No campaign in the build-up to the vote about how the Shetlands and the Orkneys would secede from an independent Scotland. Given the seriousness with which they treated this possibility, can we expect them to support a campaign for an independent Glasgow?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 09:02:35 AM
Subsidies to Northern Ireland will be fine. All part of the imperial dividend.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 09:06:20 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

While issues like recent conflict, national identity and history would be major players in a decision on the constitutional future of the North there are lessons here for those pushing for a "border poll".  In a  choice between Change and Status Quo or the Divil You Know v. the Divil You Don't, the Status Quo will always be difficult to shift even if people are unhappy with it.  That will apply here in the North too.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 09:09:16 AM
Even from a basic day to day economic perspective as it stands though. There seem to be a lot of parallels drawn to both situations but a lot of people seem to miss the fact there are a whole 26 counties that need to accept us too...
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 09:10:15 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

It's something like 1.8% of the Union!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Under Lights on September 19, 2014, 09:18:46 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

Exactly this.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Shamrock Shore on September 19, 2014, 09:21:58 AM
GPO it is so!

Anyone coming?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: OakleafCounty on September 19, 2014, 09:22:50 AM
Even from a basic day to day economic perspective as it stands though. There seem to be a lot of parallels drawn to both situations but a lot of people seem to miss the fact there are a whole 26 counties that need to accept us too...

We're a long way away from worrying about that. First we need nationalism/republicanism to be the dominant force in Stormont for a while before even having a vote in the north never mind the Republic.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 09:23:51 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

Exactly this.

I don't buy that. Perfect is the enemy of good. If the Scots are saying everything must be just right before they take the plunge, they're never going to take it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 09:32:50 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.

Exactly this.

I don't buy that. Perfect is the enemy of good. If the Scots are saying everything must be just right before they take the plunge, they're never going to take it.

+1 this was their opportunity and they inevitably bottled it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 09:40:52 AM
If you make a vote for something which will have a massive impact on your life - and that could be positive or negative - then you'd want to be sure that all the is were dotted and ts crossed. They fell a bit short of that. The pound debate illustrated that.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 09:45:07 AM
The no campaign could have sat at home with their feet up and they still would have won.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 09:47:11 AM
If you make a vote for something which will have a massive impact on your life - and that could be positive or negative - then you'd want to be sure that all the is were dotted and ts crossed. They fell a bit short of that. The pound debate illustrated that.

I don't see how that contradicts my point. For example, the SNP can't give cast-iron reassurances about oil revenues. They can't be sure how much is down there or what the price will be in the future. If you're of such a mind as to want all the i's dotted and the t's crossed, you'll always find a missing dot/cross.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: lynchbhoy on September 19, 2014, 09:57:18 AM
Those 'Yes' screams...that moment in Braveheart when William Wallace realised he was shopped by his own :'(
Scotland has always been a nation of backstabbers
various other films show glimpses of the historical betrayals - eg kidnapped, rob roy etc

nothing worse than being shopped by your own !!

what was it again
'never trust a lowlander or a McDonald' (or was it Campbell)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 09:57:51 AM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 10:02:20 AM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 19, 2014, 10:14:24 AM
Scotland has always been a nation of backstabbers
various other films show glimpses of the historical betrayals - eg kidnapped, rob roy etc

 ;D
I've never trusted cats since I first saw Tom & Jerry.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 10:17:02 AM
You should never trust 'media experts' on Newstalk either :)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 19, 2014, 10:20:56 AM
'Media consultant', please. And I didn't trust him. I just told yiz what he said.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 10:22:32 AM
'Media consultant', please. And I didn't trust him. I just told yiz what he said.


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 10:22:47 AM
If you make a vote for something which will have a massive impact on your life - and that could be positive or negative - then you'd want to be sure that all the is were dotted and ts crossed. They fell a bit short of that. The pound debate illustrated that.

I don't see how that contradicts my point. For example, the SNP can't give cast-iron reassurances about oil revenues. They can't be sure how much is down there or what the price will be in the future. If you're of such a mind as to want all the i's dotted and the t's crossed, you'll always find a missing dot/cross.

Well let's take an example of being a retired former government worker who's got a pension coming in from the government.

Said person asks local politician what in the event of a yes happens to his pension. Said local politician has no answer. It's things like that.

The SNP or the tories can give no assurances on oil revenues but that's the future. Yes or no can't control that. That's nothing to do with planning - that's a variable to anyone.

The question of will what I am entitled to currently still be available if we get a yes was not firmly answered in cases like what I say here.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 10:30:00 AM
Well let's take an example of being a retired former government worker who's got a pension coming in from the government.

Said person asks local politician what in the event of a yes happens to his pension. Said local politician has no answer. It's things like that.

The SNP or the tories can give no assurances on oil revenues but that's the future. Yes or no can't control that. That's nothing to do with planning - that's a variable to anyone.

The question of will what I am entitled to currently still be available if we get a yes was not firmly answered in cases like what I say here.

In your example, we have someone who might vote Yes if nothing changes. If this is typical of the mindset of your average Scot then they're never going to vote for independence, and no amount of legwork on the part of Alex Salmond et al is going to change that.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 10:39:53 AM
I don't agree. The very basic thing the guy needed to offer was parity with what people have got now. The fact that a lot of people had questions about things where parity wasn't guaranteed turned a lot of voters off.

A few years more legwork from Salmond et al would have changed that. I'm not talking 100% of absolutely every possible corner case scenario covered here.  The currency thing to me highlighted that they weren't ready.

The guy did a great job - don't get me wrong - and will probably change the face of a lot of things.  A couple of years more with a more fleshed out plan and he could have changed it even more.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 10:45:11 AM
I don't agree. The very basic thing the guy needed to offer was parity with what people have got now. The fact that a lot of people had questions about things where parity wasn't guaranteed turned a lot of voters off.

A few years more legwork from Salmond et al would have changed that. I'm not talking 100% of absolutely every possible corner case scenario covered here.  The currency thing to me highlighted that they weren't ready.

The guy did a great job - don't get me wrong - and will probably change the face of a lot of things.  A couple of years more with a more fleshed out plan and he could have changed it even more.

They've been at it for 18 months. Would three years have been enough? Maybe five years and there would have been 100% support for independence. If assurance of parity is the bottom line for your vote, logically you should vote No. That's the biggest assurance of parity.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Billys Boots on September 19, 2014, 10:46:26 AM
If they are to vote for change, then they have to accept, em, change. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 10:48:49 AM
Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2014, 10:52:16 AM
What a pity the Scots didn't have the courage to see it through.
We'll see now if CameronCleggMilliband can deliver on their promises when the English and Welsh MPs start to kick up a fuss.
If they don't I wonder how many no voters will be sorry.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 11:01:17 AM
I don't agree. The very basic thing the guy needed to offer was parity with what people have got now. The fact that a lot of people had questions about things where parity wasn't guaranteed turned a lot of voters off.

A few years more legwork from Salmond et al would have changed that. I'm not talking 100% of absolutely every possible corner case scenario covered here.  The currency thing to me highlighted that they weren't ready.

The guy did a great job - don't get me wrong - and will probably change the face of a lot of things.  A couple of years more with a more fleshed out plan and he could have changed it even more.

They've been at it for 18 months. Would three years have been enough? Maybe five years and there would have been 100% support for independence. If assurance of parity is the bottom line for your vote, logically you should vote No. That's the biggest assurance of parity.

Granted it's the biggest assurance of parity however ultimately people will vote for something which they think will make their lives better. If they can't guarantee parity then how can they have faith in them saying things will get better? To quite a few people who voted yes I think it was a case of things can't get any worse not things will get better.

Three years may not have been enough and it may have needed closer to ten but that's all pretty irrelevant now.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:05:26 AM
The thing about long campaigns is that things change - 'events, dear boy, events' as Harold Macmillan was supposed to have said. Had the SNP started their referendum campaign in 2007, they would have been full steam ahead to join the euro. By 2009, such a plan would have been their ruination. The Scots are not willing to take a chance on independence, and while there's nothing irrational about it you have to feel mildly exasperated at how many of them are justifying their decision using the rhetoric of fumbling in a greasy till. No doubt the same people who find inspiration in fireworks and gun salutes at Murrayfield. About the only foreseeable event that would cause them to change their mind at this point would be Britain dropping out of the EU in 2017. Maybe Alex Salmond should be encouraging his party to vote for Ukip!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Billys Boots on September 19, 2014, 11:08:01 AM
Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Well I hope they stop wittering about freedom etc. from now on. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:10:49 AM
Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Well I hope they stop wittering about freedom etc. from now on.

Indeed. I've never been particularly impressed by their Tartan Army schtick when the Sassenachs come to town for any sporting event. Now it needs to be called out for the plazzy patriotism that it is.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 19, 2014, 11:13:40 AM
The thing about long campaigns is that things change - 'events, dear boy, events' as Harold Macmillan was supposed to have said. Had the SNP started their referendum campaign in 2007, they would have been full steam ahead to join the euro. By 2009, such a plan would have been their ruination. The Scots are not willing to take a chance on independence, and while there's nothing irrational about it you have to feel mildly exasperated at how many of them are justifying their decision using the rhetoric of fumbling in a greasy till. No doubt the same people who find inspiration in fireworks and gun salutes at Murrayfield. About the only foreseeable event that would cause them to change their mind at this point would be Britain dropping out of the EU in 2017. Maybe Alex Salmond should be encouraging his party to vote for Ukip!

This referendum was at a poor time, the recession made cash issues more to the forefront of peoples minds, and there are international tensions of one sort and another. There is a Tyrone man on IrishEconomy.ie who reckons that the Irish economic growth figures announced yesterday had been suppressed in recent months so as not to scare the horses in Alban. Looking at the odds for the Scottish Referendum I was shocked to find that the odds for the UK leaving the EU were much more like even money. One wonders how that campaign would proceed with turnout etc, I imagine a lot of English people would just plump not to change when the time comes. But the campaign might expose substantial regional differences and stir things up.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 11:15:46 AM
The thing about long campaigns is that things change - 'events, dear boy, events' as Harold Macmillan was supposed to have said. Had the SNP started their referendum campaign in 2007, they would have been full steam ahead to join the euro. By 2009, such a plan would have been their ruination. The Scots are not willing to take a chance on independence, and while there's nothing irrational about it you have to feel mildly exasperated at how many of them are justifying their decision using the rhetoric of fumbling in a greasy till. No doubt the same people who find inspiration in fireworks and gun salutes at Murrayfield. About the only foreseeable event that would cause them to change their mind at this point would be Britain dropping out of the EU in 2017. Maybe Alex Salmond should be encouraging his party to vote for Ukip!

I agree with most of what you say however there are things you can't control and things you can control and they weren't fully on top of the things you can.

I don't fully buy the theory that they chickened out to be honest(not from you but in general). A massive amount of people voted for independence. Yes ~10% more voted against it however at the beginning of this no one could have envisaged.

When it boils down to it the majority of people just want to look after their own and their families welfare.  If it can't be guaranteed then it won't be for them.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 11:18:04 AM
Yes, but the question is 'What will change?'. And they've decided that the price of change, or the uncertainty over some elements, is not worth it.

Well I hope they stop wittering about freedom etc. from now on.

Indeed. I've never been particularly impressed by their Tartan Army schtick when the Sassenachs come to town for any sporting event. Now it needs to be called out for the plazzy patriotism that it is.

Well in fairness 45% of them, and with the turnout you can almost say that exactly which is unusual, voted for independence. Maybe they are the crew singing about bannockburn and sassenachs.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:21:54 AM
I agree with most of what you say however there are things you can't control and things you can control and they weren't fully on top of the things you can.

I don't fully buy the theory that they chickened out to be honest(not from you but in general). A massive amount of people voted for independence. Yes ~10% more voted against it however at the beginning of this no one could have envisaged.

When it boils down to it the majority of people just want to look after their own and their families welfare.  If it can't be guaranteed then it won't be for them.

You can accept that a person voted rationally for what they perceived to be their own interests and also believe they chickened out. It's pretty much the definition of chickening out. I would have more respect for someone who voted No because they wished to remain Scottish and British than someone who voted No because of potential pension ramifactions.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 11:27:47 AM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 19, 2014, 11:34:12 AM
Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.

CNN seems to think so too.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:35:38 AM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:35:57 AM
Adam Boulton just reckoned that there was over 100% turn out of voters in some areas. Either he's getting a bit carried away or Sinn Fein must have been orcastrating the voters.

CNN seems to think so too.



Giving it 110%!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 11:37:43 AM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 19, 2014, 11:41:09 AM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
Cant have their Dundee Cake and eat it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Billys Boots on September 19, 2014, 11:42:37 AM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a portion of their people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.

Ivor Cutler reckoned that the Scots got their brains from herring - I think he might have something there.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: tc_manchester on September 19, 2014, 11:44:22 AM
Irrespective of the no vote it still put the shits up Cameron. 45% is still a very large amount of people who want to leave "the union". It has to make them think.

Having talked to quite a few scots over the last while about this the general feeling was that it was too soon. The feeling was also that Salmond had pushed on with it because he wanted it to be his legacy and if he had waited out a few years and fleshed all the finer detail out it would have gone through.

You have to wonder would it impact the north. We are heavily subsidised and Scotland simply aren't. If questions start being asked then what would be done.
Regarding a border poll for the 6 counties Sinn Fein/SDLP need to be sure that the British Government will guarantee the block grant for 20 years. After all they have stated that they have no political or economic reason for being in Ireland. It's only because the majority of the population of the 6 counties wish to be aligned to Westminster. Therefore if a border poll is to be held and the British hold to the 'political and economic' line then they have to take the economic worry out of the question otherwise it will be a skewed poll between those who believe in a United Ireland and those who believe in the crown and the half crown.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Billys Boots on September 19, 2014, 11:45:30 AM
In case you didn't believe me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJT7HK4Mlc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJT7HK4Mlc)

Ivor Cutler - Life in a Scotch Sitting Room
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:46:54 AM
I think that's more accurate. After all, how many of the 55% would be pure British Scots, I'd imagine a fair few.  It's only the 'Yay Scotland' brigade that voted No that your comment applies to. People who voted Yes should be immune, as should those who would never position themselves that way in the first place.

That's fair enough.

I'm not in the humour to be fair this morning though >:(
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 19, 2014, 11:48:29 AM
This guy knows it, modern day William Wallace shopped face..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29274018
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 11:52:40 AM
Common sense prevails.

The yes campaign was a shambles; I would argue only Sinn Fein has less of an understanding on economics. They done nothing to convince the people with something to lose, they would not be worse off if they voted for independence.

It's easy to be patriotic when you have nothing to lose and fcuk all else to occupy yourself with. Calling the no campaign negative and scare mongering for pointing out uncertainties is just a way of detracting from the fact, the yes campaign was crap. They had 18 months to prepare answers to all the questions but still trotted out the same responses. Better to be ruled from Westminster and keep the status quo than ruled by a set of numpties.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 19, 2014, 11:55:50 AM
Common sense prevails.

The yes campaign was a shambles; I would argue only Sinn Fein has less of an understanding on economics. They done nothing to convince the people with something to lose, they would not be worse off if they voted for independence.

It's easy to be patriotic when you have nothing to lose and fcuk all else to occupy yourself with. Calling the no campaign negative and scare mongering for pointing out uncertainties is just a way of detracting from the fact, the yes campaign was crap. They had 18 months to prepare answers to all the questions but still trotted out the same responses. Better to be ruled from Westminster and keep the status quo than ruled by a set of numpties.

You mean better the numpty you know?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 19, 2014, 11:57:18 AM
I think the SNP generally  are far ahead of SF in their understanding of economics, which isn't hard. However, it is difficult to put forward concrete proposals when the British government and the EU are basically saying that we are not going to talk about it until after the referendum. This means that there are many things which remain unclear.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 11:57:55 AM
You mean better the numpty you know?

If I'm being fair, I would admit to sympathy with the hundreds of thousands of Scots who share a country with people who look at David Cameron and think "better the numpty we know"...


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 12:03:48 PM
Common sense prevails.

The yes campaign was a shambles; I would argue only Sinn Fein has less of an understanding on economics. They done nothing to convince the people with something to lose, they would not be worse off if they voted for independence.

It's easy to be patriotic when you have nothing to lose and fcuk all else to occupy yourself with. Calling the no campaign negative and scare mongering for pointing out uncertainties is just a way of detracting from the fact, the yes campaign was crap. They had 18 months to prepare answers to all the questions but still trotted out the same responses. Better to be ruled from Westminster and keep the status quo than ruled by a set of numpties.

You mean better the numpty you know?

Yes in a round about way  :P
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 12:12:31 PM
I think the SNP generally  are far ahead of SF in their understanding of economics, which isn't hard. However, it is difficult to put forward concrete proposals when the British government and the EU are basically saying that we are not going to talk about it until after the referendum. This means that there are many things which remain unclear.

There are school children far ahead of SF in their understanding of economics ffs.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 12:23:25 PM
I think the SNP generally  are far ahead of SF in their understanding of economics, which isn't hard. However, it is difficult to put forward concrete proposals when the British government and the EU are basically saying that we are not going to talk about it until after the referendum. This means that there are many things which remain unclear.

The British government categorically stated there would be no shared currency. The EU said they would not get automatic entry into the EU and no discussion until after the referendum (probably until independence). These are facts and not uncertainties which the yes campaign choose to ignore.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 12:32:33 PM
It was a bit like Atletico vs Real in the CL final. 1-0 with 5 minutes left. . Gordy Brown as Ronaldo. It went to extra time and everything.
Will be interesting to see the age split of nos. Could be a generational thing. Beidh aris ann.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 01:09:12 PM
The people spoke. Talk of chickening out etc.. is nonsense, everyone had their own decision to make & did so, reasons now are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: weareros on September 19, 2014, 01:10:25 PM
Thought the Yes campaign started to lose the momentum they were rapidly gaining when RBS and Lloyds said they'd relocate to London. That was a spectacular missed opportunity by Yes to say "These are banks that failed and then even squandered the bailouts from the taxpayers... let's not take economic advice from these crowd of ganststers." Can you imagine Anglo Irish Bank having that effect in Ireland? Instead they turned on the BBC and were portrayed as fanatics. Even though they were 100% right about the BBC. And their coverage in the early hours of the morning put me to sleep.

But bottom line, the Scots are a spineless lot. They need to dump the Tartan Army, proud Celt, Scotland the Brave lark. Scotland the Brave was ripped off from O'Donnell Abu anyway. They will forever more be just known as a little piece of England. Such a parcel of rogues as Robbie Burns would say.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 01:21:31 PM
The EU referendum further down the line has a greater potential to derail the Union. It will make clear the differences in the regions, to make generalisations - England likely to have a majority vote to leave, Scotland & Wales unlikely, NI is debatable & could fall on largely Sectarian clones as Unionism has no love for the EU (quelle surprise). The Cities of London & Birmingham clubbed together have the population of the other 3 countries of the union put together & could in theory cast enough votes to outvote 3 'pro-EU' countries and the whole of the UK has to go.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 01:22:42 PM
The people spoke. Talk of chickening out etc.. is nonsense, everyone had their own decision to make & did so, reasons now are irrelevant.

So once a vote is over,  there's no point discussing the reasons the people spoke because, uh, the people spoke?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 01:23:18 PM
Frankie Boyle:  "I should have expected this, for if you'd asked me to estimate how many cnuts there were in Scotland I'd have said about 2 million"
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on September 19, 2014, 01:28:00 PM
It's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 01:29:15 PM
The people spoke. Talk of chickening out etc.. is nonsense, everyone had their own decision to make & did so, reasons now are irrelevant.

So once a vote is over,  there's no point discussing the reasons the people spoke because, uh, the people spoke?

Pretty much so.  Private relief for the Queen on the news, she much have flipped one off when the result came in.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 01:29:45 PM
The people spoke. Talk of chickening out etc.. is nonsense, everyone had their own decision to make & did so, reasons now are irrelevant.

So once a vote is over,  there's no point discussing the reasons the people spoke because, uh, the people spoke?
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 01:38:03 PM
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.

No, but you say that talk of chickening out is 'nonsense' because people had their own decision to make. It strikes me as rather circular.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 01:38:57 PM
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.

No, but you say that talk of chickening out is 'nonsense' because people had their own decision to make. It strikes me as rather circular.

It strikes me of factual.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 01:39:53 PM
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.

No, but you say that talk of chickening out is 'nonsense' because people had their own decision to make. It strikes me as rather circular.

It strikes me of factual.

Water is wet. Now there's factual for you.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 01:54:04 PM
Circular how?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 19, 2014, 01:54:29 PM
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.

No, but you say that talk of chickening out is 'nonsense' because people had their own decision to make. It strikes me as rather circular.

It strikes me of factual.

Water is wet. Now there's factual for you.
Wet Wet  Wet on the other hand are dry hun bastards.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Zip Code on September 19, 2014, 02:01:27 PM
Did I stop the thread or something? Discuss away - as I have already since done.

No, but you say that talk of chickening out is 'nonsense' because people had their own decision to make. It strikes me as rather circular.

It strikes me of factual.

Water is wet. Now there's factual for you.

You sure.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 02:02:53 PM
Circular how?

Because it seems to be me that you are saying that because people have a decision to make, they can't be said to have chickened out. That could be applied to any choice. Golfer has 20-foot downhill putt to force a playoff in the Masters but opts to come up short to ensure he doesn't end up finishing third? Hey, don't say he chickened out, he had a decision to make! A lot of Scots will talk the talk about hating the English and wrapping themselves in the saltire and wearing kilts at weddings and sing laments about the cruel Sassenachs when filled with Glenfiddich. But when they went into the polling booth, they were suddenly overwhelmed with concern over not having a lender of last resort in the event of a run on banks. For me, that's you-know-what.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: screenexile on September 19, 2014, 02:05:07 PM
The bottom line is that the Yes campaign's success was more the fact that the No campaign were f**king awful! The truth is they were expecting people to take a huge leap into the unknown and they were campaigning on dreams rather than reality.

Had they a blueprint for what an Independent Scotland would look like in terms of economics and healthcare at the basic level they may well have gotten over the line. People by and large aren't going to gamble with their families futures especially when there were so many unknowns out there!!!!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
The pension ramifications is only one thing though. Things like that question confidence. People will ask if  this guy can't guarantee my pension then how can he guarantee my family's welfare, my health gets looked after etc etc. Things like that should not be unknowns. The fact that they are is (or was) a worry to a lot of people.

If a person really believed in scottish independence and voted no then they chickened out. If they had to be swayed by a political campaign then no they didn't chicken out. It's really a sweeping generalisation to suggest the whole nation chickened out.

There is such a thing as national characteristics. Shared history, myths, institutions, lingo, to name but a few. With that in mind, I think it is fair to note that the Scots have a shared love of antagonism towards the English. I can see it in ourselves. It's mostly benign, as is ours these days, but when set against the vote yesterday I think I'm entitled to look at the Scottish and see a people who want to run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.

You sure are. I'm also entitled to disagree but like you say the argument is circular so little point in it 8) I personally think it's a very sweeping generalisation but that's just IMO.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: imtommygunn on September 19, 2014, 02:06:54 PM
The bottom line is that the Yes campaign's success was more the fact that the No campaign were f**king awful! The truth is they were expecting people to take a huge leap into the unknown and they were campaigning on dreams rather than reality.

Had they a blueprint for what an Independent Scotland would look like in terms of economics and healthcare at the basic level they may well have gotten over the line. People by and large aren't going to gamble with their families futures especially when there were so many unknowns out there!!!!
Exactly
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 02:10:22 PM
You sure are. I'm also entitled to disagree but like you say the argument is circular so little point in it 8) I personally think it's a very sweeping generalisation but that's just IMO.

That's cool, I take your points.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on September 19, 2014, 02:14:36 PM
Talk of the Yes campaign's vision of the future being full of uncertainties is a nonsense - it's the future we're talking about, stupid, of course there are going to be uncertainties. What about highlighting similar uncertainties in the No blueprint? I'm thinking of the fact that Scotland could find itself being dragged out of Europe in the very near future by UKIP, the Tory right wing and all their fellow travellers. How's that for uncertainty. The currency union and use of the pound was not an uncertainty. As Salmond pointed out, Scotland is the 2nd biggest market for the rest of the UK after the US. There is simply no way that, post referendum, the British govt would put tariff barriers or exchange rate worries in the way of its own businesses. Enlightened self interest would have prevailed. Likewise, Europe could not be seen to offer a carrot to Scotland before the referendum, as this would have been viewed as encouraging the breakup of the UK. Once the vote had been won, though, Scotland would have been ushered in as quickly as possible. It's a stable, wealthy country - why wouldn't Europe want it on board?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: screenexile on September 19, 2014, 02:22:51 PM
Talk of the Yes campaign's vision of the future being full of uncertainties is a nonsense - it's the future we're talking about, stupid, of course there are going to be uncertainties. What about highlighting similar uncertainties in the No blueprint? I'm thinking of the fact that Scotland could find itself being dragged out of Europe in the very near future by UKIP, the Tory right wing and all their fellow travellers. How's that for uncertainty. The currency union and use of the pound was not an uncertainty. As Salmond pointed out, Scotland is the 2nd biggest market for the rest of the UK after the US. There is simply no way that, post referendum, the British govt would put tariff barriers or exchange rate worries in the way of its own businesses. Enlightened self interest would have prevailed. Likewise, Europe could not be seen to offer a carrot to Scotland before the referendum, as this would have been viewed as encouraging the breakup of the UK. Once the vote had been won, though, Scotland would have been ushered in as quickly as possible. It's a stable, wealthy country - why wouldn't Europe want it on board?

It's not nonsense because it's the way the No voters felt... I've spoken to quite a few Scots over the past week and all were in favour of Independence in theory but ultimately the Yes campaign did not convince them of the things you have pointed out above so they voted for the status quo.

People don't like to change too often and for many it was a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2014, 02:23:40 PM
Anybody have any idea or suggestions what will happen when the English outvote the rest to leave the EU?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on September 19, 2014, 02:28:31 PM


Quote
Quote from: AZOffaly on Today at 02:37:48 PM

    If there was a vote in Northern Ireland only, where the proposal was to unite with the Republic of Ireland, would a high turnout be seen as good for the Yes campaign?

No. I'd think it would mean the opposite in that case, as there are probably more people who don't habitually use their franchise who would be on the No side in that one. That's my speculation anyway.

leave Milltown out of it, Scotland is different.
[/quote]

Now now, the vote here would be a lot worse than the 55/45 Scottish vote. If it came to a vote here I'd have no problems voting yes. But the amount of people who'd change their minds when they arrive at the booth would be telling.

I'd say a large percentage of the no voters (in Scotland) would be people on benefits, how else would they survive in Scotland without their handouts
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 02:30:43 PM
Lads, I'm struggling to understand the anger and disappointment felt on our side of the Irish Sea. I understand, maybe, the potential ramifications for the wee 6 if the UK started to break up, but I don't think Scotland's situation would determine anything either way on that front. (Although I'm sure the P&F bands with their Orange flags and bowler hats are delighted with the result).

I think the criticism of Scotland, and the Scots of being 'cowardly' or 'spineless' is over the top. I also think this notion that we should never hear again any talk about William Wallace, Flower of Scotland etc etc is way over the top.

The way I see it is you essentially had 3 camps.

1 - The Scots Nationalists. (Not to be confused with the SNP). These people have a very Scottish sense of identity, and are hugely proud of that identity and the whole Scottish culture, including those items above. They would have voted YES yesterday, even if they were unsure of the future, as they would face it with hope, determination and pride in a new independent Scotland.

2 - The Scots-British. These would be analogous to our own Unionist brethern. They feel themselves as British as anyone in Middlesex, Essex or Surrey. Granted a lot of them would support Scotland in sporting events against England, but only in the same way a brother would want to beat another brother. These identify as British, and always would. I believe this cohort would have voted NO, regardless of any promises of a prosperous future as a commonwealth, but independent, nation.

3 - The Waverers. This is where the game was won and lost. On the assumption that the camps in 1&2 were fairly evenly matched, or even weighted more towards the #1s, this is the bunch that the campaign was really aimed at. Proud of being Scots, but having nothing against the remainder of the UK, and quite comfortable having a bulwark of a big brother to prop them up if the need arises. This bunch would have had to be swayed that independence was good for them and their children, sustainable, and prosperous. This is what has failed.


So I don't think you can call the 45% of the Scottish Population, 1.6 million voters, spineless or not real Scots. At the end of the day, they did everything they could do, and I'm sure that accounts for practically everyone in #1 above.

Likewise, I don't think you can call the group #2 any of those things, as they would be unashamedly British in any case, and voting NO had more to do with their identity than being scared to go alone. They see no reason on earth why they would forsake their identity. Again, parallels with our own Unionists. You might say you don't want this bunch supporting Scotland in any sporting event, or proclaiming their culture, but that's their point. This Scottishness is part of their Britishness.

So, if we are going to slate anyone, and I don't think we should, we should be slating that percentage (unknown) who fall into group 3. The group that isn't emotionally invested in Nationhood to a sufficient extent to risk a period of financial instability or the removal of a huge buffer in the form of the UK. Cowardice is one charge that can be thrown at them, but maybe that's not accurate either. Maybe it's the case that the advantages weren't well sold to them.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 02:32:42 PM
It's not nonsense because it's the way the No voters felt... I've spoken to quite a few Scots over the past week and all were in favour of Independence in theory but ultimately the Yes campaign did not convince them of the things you have pointed out above so they voted for the status quo.

People don't like to change too often and for many it was a case of better the devil you know than the devil you don't!

What was it about the theory of independence that they liked?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2014, 02:40:28 PM

The way I see it is you essentially had 3 camps.

1 - The Scots Nationalists. (Not to be confused with the SNP). These people have a very Scottish sense of identity, and are hugely proud of that identity and the whole Scottish culture, including those items above. They would have voted YES yesterday, even if they were unsure of the future, as they would face it with hope, determination and pride in a new independent Scotland.

2 - The Scots-British. These would be analogous to our own Unionist brethern. They feel themselves as British as anyone in Middlesex, Essex or Surrey. Granted a lot of them would support Scotland in sporting events against England, but only in the same way a brother would want to beat another brother. These identify as British, and always would. I believe this cohort would have voted NO, regardless of any promises of a prosperous future as a commonwealth, but independent, nation.

3 - The Waverers. This is where the game was won and lost. On the assumption that the camps in 1&2 were fairly evenly matched, or even weighted more towards the #1s, this is the bunch that the campaign was really aimed at. Proud of being Scots, but having nothing against the remainder of the UK, and quite comfortable having a bulwark of a big brother to prop them up if the need arises. This bunch would have had to be swayed that independence was good for them and their children, sustainable, and prosperous. This is what has failed.


1- 45%
2 and 3 - 25% + 30%.??

If/when we have a referendum in the 6 Cos are talking
30% yes to UI ( no matter what)
40%(at least) No ( no matter what)
and the other 30% decide the outcome on Economic/fear of the unknown grounds?

 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 19, 2014, 02:43:23 PM

The way I see it is you essentially had 3 camps.

1 - The Scots Nationalists. (Not to be confused with the SNP). These people have a very Scottish sense of identity, and are hugely proud of that identity and the whole Scottish culture, including those items above. They would have voted YES yesterday, even if they were unsure of the future, as they would face it with hope, determination and pride in a new independent Scotland.

2 - The Scots-British. These would be analogous to our own Unionist brethern. They feel themselves as British as anyone in Middlesex, Essex or Surrey. Granted a lot of them would support Scotland in sporting events against England, but only in the same way a brother would want to beat another brother. These identify as British, and always would. I believe this cohort would have voted NO, regardless of any promises of a prosperous future as a commonwealth, but independent, nation.

3 - The Waverers. This is where the game was won and lost. On the assumption that the camps in 1&2 were fairly evenly matched, or even weighted more towards the #1s, this is the bunch that the campaign was really aimed at. Proud of being Scots, but having nothing against the remainder of the UK, and quite comfortable having a bulwark of a big brother to prop them up if the need arises. This bunch would have had to be swayed that independence was good for them and their children, sustainable, and prosperous. This is what has failed.


1- 45%
2 and 3 - 25% + 30%.??

If/when we have a referendum in the 6 Cos are talking
30% yes to UI ( no matter what)
40%(at least) No ( no matter what)
and the other 30% decide the outcome on Economic/fear of the unknown grounds?

I'd imagine it would be along those lines, although it may be 35% versus 40% with 25% swing votes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 02:45:02 PM
Circular how?

Because it seems to be me that you are saying that because people have a decision to make, they can't be said to have chickened out. That could be applied to any choice. Golfer has 20-foot downhill putt to force a playoff in the Masters but opts to come up short to ensure he doesn't end up finishing third? Hey, don't say he chickened out, he had a decision to make! A lot of Scots will talk the talk about hating the English and wrapping themselves in the saltire and wearing kilts at weddings and sing laments about the cruel Sassenachs when filled with Glenfiddich. But when they went into the polling booth, they were suddenly overwhelmed with concern over not having a lender of last resort in the event of a run on banks. For me, that's you-know-what.
If that's your opinion, fine. It strikes me as disrespectful to the choices people have made. Maybe there's just more pro-union supporters than supporters of Independence as evidenced by yesterday's vote?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: haranguerer on September 19, 2014, 02:48:41 PM
Talk of the Yes campaign's vision of the future being full of uncertainties is a nonsense - it's the future we're talking about, stupid, of course there are going to be uncertainties. What about highlighting similar uncertainties in the No blueprint? I'm thinking of the fact that Scotland could find itself being dragged out of Europe in the very near future by UKIP, the Tory right wing and all their fellow travellers. How's that for uncertainty. The currency union and use of the pound was not an uncertainty. As Salmond pointed out, Scotland is the 2nd biggest market for the rest of the UK after the US. There is simply no way that, post referendum, the British govt would put tariff barriers or exchange rate worries in the way of its own businesses. Enlightened self interest would have prevailed. Likewise, Europe could not be seen to offer a carrot to Scotland before the referendum, as this would have been viewed as encouraging the breakup of the UK. Once the vote had been won, though, Scotland would have been ushered in as quickly as possible. It's a stable, wealthy country - why wouldn't Europe want it on board?

This is true
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Milltown Row2 on September 19, 2014, 02:50:33 PM

The way I see it is you essentially had 3 camps.

1 - The Scots Nationalists. (Not to be confused with the SNP). These people have a very Scottish sense of identity, and are hugely proud of that identity and the whole Scottish culture, including those items above. They would have voted YES yesterday, even if they were unsure of the future, as they would face it with hope, determination and pride in a new independent Scotland.

2 - The Scots-British. These would be analogous to our own Unionist brethern. They feel themselves as British as anyone in Middlesex, Essex or Surrey. Granted a lot of them would support Scotland in sporting events against England, but only in the same way a brother would want to beat another brother. These identify as British, and always would. I believe this cohort would have voted NO, regardless of any promises of a prosperous future as a commonwealth, but independent, nation.

3 - The Waverers. This is where the game was won and lost. On the assumption that the camps in 1&2 were fairly evenly matched, or even weighted more towards the #1s, this is the bunch that the campaign was really aimed at. Proud of being Scots, but having nothing against the remainder of the UK, and quite comfortable having a bulwark of a big brother to prop them up if the need arises. This bunch would have had to be swayed that independence was good for them and their children, sustainable, and prosperous. This is what has failed.


1- 45%
2 and 3 - 25% + 30%.??

If/when we have a referendum in the 6 Cos are talking
30% yes to UI ( no matter what)
40%(at least) No ( no matter what)
and the other 30% decide the outcome on Economic/fear of the unknown grounds?

I'd say there would only be around 20% undecided
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 02:54:56 PM
If that's your opinion, fine. It strikes me as disrespectful to the choices people have made. Maybe there's just more pro-union supporters than supporters of Independence as evidenced by yesterday's vote?

Sure, and I can respect someone who genuinely feels British and Scottish and doesn't wish the r(ump)UK to become a foreign country. I mentioned Alex Massie in a previous comment who has made a tremendous case for the emotional attachment of the Union. What I can't respect, and I have no doubt the number of people who fall into this category run into tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands, is the Braveheart-loving bullshitters who know the dates of Bannockburn and Culloden and think the former PM is called Tony Bliar, but when they went into the polling booth suddenly worried that their giro might bounce. I'm exaggerating the grotesque nature of these people - but not by much. And it was they who swung the vote.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 02:59:52 PM
Maybe they all did vote Yes, but were simply outvoted?

Get out of that one Rommel :D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 03:03:10 PM

The way I see it is you essentially had 3 camps.

1 - The Scots Nationalists. (Not to be confused with the SNP). These people have a very Scottish sense of identity, and are hugely proud of that identity and the whole Scottish culture, including those items above. They would have voted YES yesterday, even if they were unsure of the future, as they would face it with hope, determination and pride in a new independent Scotland.

2 - The Scots-British. These would be analogous to our own Unionist brethern. They feel themselves as British as anyone in Middlesex, Essex or Surrey. Granted a lot of them would support Scotland in sporting events against England, but only in the same way a brother would want to beat another brother. These identify as British, and always would. I believe this cohort would have voted NO, regardless of any promises of a prosperous future as a commonwealth, but independent, nation.

3 - The Waverers. This is where the game was won and lost. On the assumption that the camps in 1&2 were fairly evenly matched, or even weighted more towards the #1s, this is the bunch that the campaign was really aimed at. Proud of being Scots, but having nothing against the remainder of the UK, and quite comfortable having a bulwark of a big brother to prop them up if the need arises. This bunch would have had to be swayed that independence was good for them and their children, sustainable, and prosperous. This is what has failed.


1- 45%
2 and 3 - 25% + 30%.??

If/when we have a referendum in the 6 Cos are talking
30% yes to UI ( no matter what)
40%(at least) No ( no matter what)
and the other 30% decide the outcome on Economic/fear of the unknown grounds?

I'd imagine it would be along those lines, although it may be 35% versus 40% with 25% swing votes.

I think you're both over estimating the automatic Yes to a UI.  I'd see it as:

20% (on a good day) "Yes" no matter what - 10% Hate The English/Prods Bigots and 10% with an emotional attachment to a UI (like myself)

25% "No" no matter what (cos they're nasty, vicious bigots)

20% "No" because we're financially better off in the UK (even it it were shown in black and white that this wasn't the case) and it's really a fig leaf to disguise the fact that deep down they're nasty, vicious bigots too.

10% "No" - NI is a great wee country, why can't we all just get along, it's a minority spoiling it for everyone else?? - Alliance Party and Rory McIlroys

25% - The "Northern Irish" mostly Taigs but who gives a f**k what they think as we're already at 55% "NO!!"

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 03:06:40 PM
Maybe they all did vote Yes, but were simply outvoted?

Get out of that one Rommel :D

No, I'm certain that not ALL of the type I'm describing voted Yes. If they did, then the No campaign really did waste their time by appealing to them.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Syferus on September 19, 2014, 03:08:29 PM
The dance was nice while it lasted. A shift in the niteclub stalls was all it amounted to in the end.

It would have been an interesting case study to compare how an independent Celtic nation would be formed in the early 21st century as opposed to the early 20th century. Beyond riling up unionists it mattered little with regards the situation in the north.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 03:20:46 PM
Anybody have any idea or suggestions what will happen when the English outvote the rest to leave the EU?

All the "better together" arguments can be applied to the Tory/UKIP notion that leaving the EU will be better than my little pony.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 03:42:59 PM
It'll be some craic in the event of a border poll when both sides are called "Better Together"
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 19, 2014, 03:45:27 PM
In case you didn't believe me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJT7HK4Mlc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWJT7HK4Mlc)

Ivor Cutler - Life in a Scotch Sitting Room

Speaking of Scottish Poets ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ0vsjFFBxc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ0vsjFFBxc)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 03:55:03 PM
The dance was nice while it lasted. A shift in the niteclub stalls was all it amounted to in the end.

It would have been an interesting case study to compare how an independent Celtic nation would be formed in the early 21st century as opposed to the early 20th century. Beyond riling up unionists it mattered little with regards the situation in the north.
No. Scotland is in a process. It'll take more time but they'll go for it eventually.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 04:01:59 PM
One of the more noteworthy things about the vote was who voted no. Glasgow and hinterland were very strong.
Labour voters a lot of them. Loads of people not happy with the economic system. Middleclass Scots stayed union.

Politicians normally keep a lid  on working class energy but it's great to see it unleashed. The establishment really panicked last week.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-29152398
"That was one of the big moments for me, watching the blue-collar screening of the movie, The Spy Who Loved Me, and having the reaction of the crowd at the theatre when Jaws popped out of the ocean, survived and swam away. There were hoots and howling, applause. I couldn't believe it."
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 04:13:26 PM
Maybe they all did vote Yes, but were simply outvoted?

Get out of that one Rommel :D

No, I'm certain that not ALL of the type I'm describing voted Yes. If they did, then the No campaign really did waste their time by appealing to them.
They targeted the wrong stereotype?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 04:17:45 PM
Salmond to stand down as FM in November
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 04:18:04 PM
Maybe they all did vote Yes, but were simply outvoted?

Get out of that one Rommel :D

No, I'm certain that not ALL of the type I'm describing voted Yes. If they did, then the No campaign really did waste their time by appealing to them.
They targeted the wrong stereotype?

They targeted the right stereotype.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 04:19:25 PM
Salmond to stand down as FM in November
First minister says he will stand down in November when new SNP leader will be chosen, but adds 'for Scotland the campaign continues and dream shall never die'

channeling this , which was just before the moment when financialisation took over and Thatcher and Reagan implemented the programme that crashed in 2008 , which also led to the Scottish referendum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5cKYckTWEM
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 04:32:17 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AQMP on September 19, 2014, 04:35:40 PM
Salmond claims that in a phone call to Cameron today Cameron could not commit to enacting the promised wider powers for Scotland by March of next year as laid out by Gordon Brown.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: glens abu on September 19, 2014, 04:40:30 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.

It is
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 19, 2014, 05:09:31 PM
Alex Salmond - rude, aggressive, patronising, arrogant, opportunistic, ruthless and conniving.

God, I'll miss him.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: macdanger2 on September 19, 2014, 05:20:00 PM
I don't agree. The very basic thing the guy needed to offer was parity with what people have got now. The fact that a lot of people had questions about things where parity wasn't guaranteed turned a lot of voters off.

A few years more legwork from Salmond et al would have changed that. I'm not talking 100% of absolutely every possible corner case scenario covered here.  The currency thing to me highlighted that they weren't ready.

The guy did a great job - don't get me wrong - and will probably change the face of a lot of things.  A couple of years more with a more fleshed out plan and he could have changed it even more.

There is NO "currency" thing!! That was the biggest red herring of the campaign. There's nothing to stop any currency from pegging itself with any other
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 05:21:06 PM
I thought Cameron's speech today was interesting. He spoke about the 4 nations - Tans, Jocks, Welsh and Irish

I presume the unionists in TW6 were sickened to be classed as the Irish nation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dU8mGjrjJk
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 05:23:01 PM
Alex Salmond - rude, aggressive, patronising, arrogant, opportunistic, ruthless and conniving.

God, I'll miss him.
Great description of a political CV
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 05:26:20 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.

It is

You can try to convince yourself all you want but no it is not. It was entirely their own decision.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 19, 2014, 05:30:42 PM
I think Salmond did cracking work to get 45%, considering that everyone from the EU to barrack Obama was agin him.
He'd make a good option for Mayo manager.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: gawa316 on September 19, 2014, 05:44:16 PM
I thought Cameron's speech today was interesting. He spoke about the 4 nations - Tans, Jocks, Welsh and Irish

I presume the unionists in TW6 were sickened to be classed as the Irish nation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dU8mGjrjJk

There no doubt is but not everyone thinks like that. I am proud to be classed Irish.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: rossiewanderer on September 19, 2014, 06:45:59 PM
Scotland was the only part of the United Kingdom that had anything like a vaguely feasible hope
of making it alone as an Independent country and It wisely chose to stay in the UK.
Sammond is a bit of a dreamer and did remarkably well to engineer himself into this position,Many of the Yes campaign supporters came across as crass with a large dollop of hippy thrown in for good measure.
   The implications of this referendum could well have repercussions for the other Union Countries as the people of England are growing tired of the unbalanced nature of funds thrown towards devolution governments.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2014, 07:12:18 PM
May I respectfully point out to some people here that the United Kingdom State does NOT consist of FOUR COUNTRIES. ;)
It has 3 Countries plus two thirds of a Province of a fourth Country.
(Mind you I don't know if Cymru/Wales can be considered a Country but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).

I see the timetable for extra powers for Scotland seems to be gone off the rails already. Who'd ever think that (British) Politicians wouldn't keep promises. ::)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 19, 2014, 07:16:04 PM
George square could be interesting tonight as both sides are having a stand off. Being described as tense.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: red hander on September 19, 2014, 07:27:12 PM
Braveheart my hole ... more like chickenhearts. And Flower Of Scotland as their national anthem, that's a joke as well  >:(
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 19, 2014, 07:30:29 PM
May I respectfully point out to some people here that the United Kingdom State does NOT consist of FOUR COUNTRIES. ;)
It has 3 Countries plus two thirds of a Province of a fourth Country.
(Mind you I don't know if Cymru/Wales can be considered a Country but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).


Actually, the UK submission to the UN states that the UK consists of 2 countries, a principality and a province.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on September 19, 2014, 07:53:53 PM
Braveheart my hole ... more like chickenhearts. And Flower Of Scotland as their national anthem, that's a joke as well  >:(

Weeds of Scotland?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 08:18:32 PM
May I respectfully point out to some people here that the United Kingdom State does NOT consist of FOUR COUNTRIES. ;)
It has 3 Countries plus two thirds of a Province of a fourth Country.
(Mind you I don't know if Cymru/Wales can be considered a Country but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).

I see the timetable for extra powers for Scotland seems to be gone off the rails already. Who'd ever think that (British) Politicians wouldn't keep promises. ::)
He said 4 nations.
Same usage as rugby- it's not called the 6 countries ;)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on September 19, 2014, 08:24:47 PM
May I respectfully point out to some people here that the United Kingdom State does NOT consist of FOUR COUNTRIES. ;)
It has 3 Countries plus two thirds of a Province of a fourth Country.
(Mind you I don't know if Cymru/Wales can be considered a Country but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).


Actually, the UK submission to the UN states that the UK consists of 2 countries, a principality and a province.
It should be 6 counties of a province.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 19, 2014, 08:25:58 PM
Sorry to see Salmond go, an impressive politician, bit of a shyster, but that's hardly a drawback in the field. Sturgeon is a ringer for a woman I work with, going to be off-putting for a while.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: glens abu on September 19, 2014, 08:34:20 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.

It is

You can try to convince yourself all you want but no it is not. It was entirely their own decision.

I don't need to convince myself of anything,it's in black and white when the majority of those living in the 6 counties vote to leave the UK it shall happen?It will be their decision and theirs alone.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 08:37:09 PM
May I respectfully point out to some people here that the United Kingdom State does NOT consist of FOUR COUNTRIES. ;)
It has 3 Countries plus two thirds of a Province of a fourth Country.
(Mind you I don't know if Cymru/Wales can be considered a Country but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt).

I see the timetable for extra powers for Scotland seems to be gone off the rails already. Who'd ever think that (British) Politicians wouldn't keep promises. ::)
He said 4 nations.
Same usage as rugby- it's not called the 6 countries ;)
Here it is again

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/70acc06a-3fdd-11e4-936b-00144feabdc0.html
"Britain has held on to its most precious commodity, Britishness – an inclusive identity that had united four proud nations in shared endeavor"

NI isn't a nation or even a province. It's a state of dysfunction.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on September 19, 2014, 08:46:50 PM
 http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1ee0eb08-3f3d-11e4-a861-00144feabdc0.html

This is the start of a long constitutional wrangle for the UK

By Janan Ganesh
The union may have survived but in its present design it is possibly dead

The UK has survived, comfortably; the UK in its present design is dead, possibly. The outcome of the referendum on Scottish independence is as cloudy as that, even if its arithmetical result was decisive.
Scots affirmed the union by a margin of 55 per cent to 45 per cent. The rush of nationalism that showed in the polls at the turn of September was not enough; wavering voters cleaved to the status quo. A unionist campaign that was traduced by armchair strategists for subjugating romance to cold scepticism turned out to be effective enough. Pollsters say that unanswered questions about an independent Scotland’s economy – its pensions, its lure to business and above all its currency – were what ultimately told.

Yet the result is the start of a constitutional wrangle, not the end of it. That more than two in five Scots – and their biggest city Glasgow – have voted to leave the UK is no small matter. The separatist movement will have to be assuaged with new powers for the Edinburgh parliament. The most sanguine unionists used to expect barely 30 per cent to plump for secession. Had Alex Salmond managed expectations more deftly of late, the nationalist first minister of Scotland would now be written up as a man of pluck and derring-do who pushed a 307-year union to the edge of oblivion. Instead, he has resigned, a visibly dejected man.

He wants his eventual successor to press Westminster to honour its big but unspecific promise of another round of devolution to Scotland. Fleshing this promise out, getting it through the UK parliament and then balancing it with new powers of self-rule for England could be the work of years, not months. There is no clean answer to the governance of the UK, no rationalist blueprint that pleases every part of a multinational kingdom in which one nation, England, is so preponderant. Imagine if Bavaria accounted for 85 per cent of Germany’s population.

Still, the first few steps along this tortuous path can now be discerned. In a statement on Friday morning, David Cameron, radiant with relief, said he wanted English votes for English laws. This seems to mean that only MPs with constituencies in England can vote on legislation that affects only England: healthcare, education, aspects of welfare and possibly some fiscal policy. Because the Tories are the biggest party in England, the implications are heavy. It is possible that Ed Miliband will win next year’s general election for Labour but have no majority on some basic matters of government.

A referendum that could have done for the prime minister has ended up putting his opponents in an invidious position. There is no answer to the English question that does not compromise Labour. True, the party would have won in 1997, 2001 and 2005 without Scottish seats but that was under the leadership of Tony Blair, who had freakish political talent and a laser eye for the centre ground. How many Blairs do Labour have?

Yet to oppose constitutional redress for the English would be incendiary. Labour could lose England, especially the south east, for a generation, as voters there come to see it as a high-handed Celtic lobby. Labour MPs such as John Denham and Frank Field are counseling their party against an outright rejection of Mr Cameron’s proposal.

Of course, a proposal is just that. The prime minister must get it through parliament. But his hand is strong. Further devolution to Edinburgh has to happen because anything else would constitute a heinous breach of promises by all parties. And Tories will only approve this divestment of power in return for concomitant arrangements for England. The internal logic of the process is inescapable.

And if Labour scupper devolution to Scotland to avoid English self-rule, the political cost will not be borne by Mr Cameron. His party have little esteem to lose among Scots. Labour, by contrast, would risk evisceration at the hands of the Nationalists for failing to honour promises made by one of their own - Gordon Brown, the former prime minister - just last week. South of the border, meanwhile, the Tories would cast Labour as anti-democrats.

Those close to the prime minister say he is serious about English votes for English laws. Question his ability to deliver it and the reply is crisp: “He will. Don’t worry about that.” He has vigilant backbenchers to please and, in the UK Independence Party, a rival for the emerging English demos.

Mr Cameron is a conventional man who does unconventional things when he is cornered. His failure to win the last election outright led to the formation of Britain’s first coalition government since the second world war. This referendum was another brush with political mortality and it has summoned another intrepid gesture from him. At stake is his grip on his party, and his place in history.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: thebigfella on September 19, 2014, 09:06:17 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.

It is

You can try to convince yourself all you want but no it is not. It was entirely their own decision.

I don't need to convince myself of anything,it's in black and white when the majority of those living in the 6 counties vote to leave the UK it shall happen?It will be their decision and theirs alone.

Leaving the UK is up to the 6 counties. Removal of the border will be 32 county vote. 
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 19, 2014, 09:09:40 PM
WTF relevance is a border poll to the Scottish independence vote... It would only be relevant if the 6 counties of the North was running a referendum on independence, which would never happen as Thatcher would be better than those cnuts at Stormont.

The question on the United Ireland is completely different as it not just the decision of people in the 6 counties.

It is

You can try to convince yourself all you want but no it is not. It was entirely their own decision.

I don't need to convince myself of anything,it's in black and white when the majority of those living in the 6 counties vote to leave the UK it shall happen?It will be their decision and theirs alone.

Leaving the UK is up to the 6 counties. Removal of the border will be 32 county vote.
Indeed. For a valid marriage both partners have to say I do.

The 6Cos. a Nation now it seems   :o!!!!! Pleeeease..... :-[
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 09:27:47 PM
Scotland has always been a nation of backstabbers
various other films show glimpses of the historical betrayals - eg kidnapped, rob roy etc

 ;D
I've never trusted cats since I first saw Tom & Jerry.

Point of order: Rob Roy's a true story.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 09:30:30 PM
What a pity the Scots didn't have the courage to see it through.
We'll see now if CameronCleggMilliband can deliver on their promises when the English and Welsh MPs start to kick up a fuss.
If they don't I wonder how many no voters will be sorry.

Couldn't see it being a problem. Government whips will push it through, and it only needs more Labour supporters than there are backbench rebels on the government side.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 19, 2014, 10:17:20 PM
My post-mortem:

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hardy on September 19, 2014, 11:41:47 PM
Scotland has always been a nation of backstabbers
various other films show glimpses of the historical betrayals - eg kidnapped, rob roy etc

 ;D
I've never trusted cats since I first saw Tom & Jerry.

Point of order: Rob Roy's a true story.

Carry on.

Like the 'Carry on' series you invoke, the 'Rob Roy' to which he referred was a film - a work of fiction.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ONeill on September 20, 2014, 12:42:21 AM
I was surprised to see people blur logic with the heart in predicting this outcome.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: lynchbhoy on September 20, 2014, 12:52:21 AM
Scotland has always been a nation of backstabbers
various other films show glimpses of the historical betrayals - eg kidnapped, rob roy etc

 ;D
I've never trusted cats since I first saw Tom & Jerry.
Your point being ?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: lynchbhoy on September 20, 2014, 12:54:25 AM
I'm happy enough with a 'no' vote. It preserves our own economic recovery as well as stopping the scots steal new foreign investment /jobs through low corporation tax etc
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: foxcommander on September 20, 2014, 06:32:28 AM
Will the jocks now stop singing "Flower of Scotland" as their anthem for sports. Would kinda seem wrong now.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on September 20, 2014, 04:54:12 PM
I'm happy enough with a 'no' vote. It preserves our own economic recovery as well as stopping the scots steal new foreign investment /jobs through low corporation tax etc
That's a valid point. I think the Dublin govt wouldn't have welcomed the competition an independent Scotland would have provided.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 20, 2014, 05:17:32 PM
Will the North now get the lower Corporation tax MartyPeter were looking for?
Cameron put them on hold till after the Scottish Referendum.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on September 20, 2014, 06:21:46 PM
Will the North now get the lower Corporation tax MartyPeter were looking for?
Cameron put them on hold till after the Scottish Referendum.
They can't manage what they have already.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Lamh Dhearg Alba on September 20, 2014, 08:49:09 PM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 20, 2014, 08:54:44 PM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

The 'No' campaign made it clear that an independent Scotland would start life with 1 uncooperative neighbour to the south. The debate never moved to the question of what friends such an entity might have. Given that US investors will rush into places like Iraq, China, Georgia & Russia at the first hint of stability, an independent Scotland had little to worry about. Add to the obvious connections with Ireland and all of the EU and probably Canada and finance would not have been an issue. It was a complete red herring of an issue, even allowing for the national debt problem.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 20, 2014, 09:20:01 PM
There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on September 20, 2014, 09:29:31 PM
They can sing all God Save the Queen including the neglected verse


    Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
    May by thy mighty aid,
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    and like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush,
    God save The Queen.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on September 20, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

Do you think there are many people in Scotland staring into their pint, wall, distance thinking 'what the f##k have I done!?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on September 20, 2014, 09:44:24 PM
I don't get this thinking at all,Yes had a miniscule Poll lead in one Poll with a margin of error of 6/8% built in, the No camp were ahead everywhere bar this. The vote went as expected, there are more Union supporters than Independence supporters - end of. Nobody let anybody down/choked/chickened out - IMO.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: lawnseed on September 20, 2014, 11:57:09 PM
the local orangies had a nice party night last night. lambegs, pipes, and flutes and bonnies and fireworks. heeeey hooo our kingdom has been saved as they danced into the night round their bonfire.. any excuse
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: andoireabu on September 21, 2014, 04:31:23 AM
There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Lamh Dhearg Alba on September 21, 2014, 09:17:47 AM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

The 'No' campaign made it clear that an independent Scotland would start life with 1 uncooperative neighbour to the south. The debate never moved to the question of what friends such an entity might have. Given that US investors will rush into places like Iraq, China, Georgia & Russia at the first hint of stability, an independent Scotland had little to worry about. Add to the obvious connections with Ireland and all of the EU and probably Canada and finance would not have been an issue. It was a complete red herring of an issue, even allowing for the national debt problem.

You don't need to tell me that but the fact was that there was blanket media coverage of banks and major companies saying they would pull out of Scotland.  Orchestrated by Westminster,  just like the warnings from foreign leaders and the likes of Barroso.  The yes campaign did their best to forward the alternative but in the face of a hostile media they struggled.  Social media was huge for them and it's no coincidence that the group they got trounced in were the over 65's who are most unlikely to be across social media, and most likely to believe what the establishment tells them.

As for bennydorano, if it was never on the cards why did Cameron,  Miliband and Clegg rush north 2 weeks ago? Why did Brown take over?  They were shitting themselves.  That intervention and the full on project fear that followed swung it in their favour.  Until then all the momentum was with yes.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 21, 2014, 09:25:57 AM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.

The 'No' campaign made it clear that an independent Scotland would start life with 1 uncooperative neighbour to the south. The debate never moved to the question of what friends such an entity might have. Given that US investors will rush into places like Iraq, China, Georgia & Russia at the first hint of stability, an independent Scotland had little to worry about. Add to the obvious connections with Ireland and all of the EU and probably Canada and finance would not have been an issue. It was a complete red herring of an issue, even allowing for the national debt problem.

You don't need to tell me that but the fact was that there was blanket media coverage of banks and major companies saying they would pull out of Scotland.  Orchestrated by Westminster,  just like the warnings from foreign leaders and the likes of Barroso.  The yes campaign did their best to forward the alternative but in the face of a hostile media they struggled.  Social media was huge for them and it's no coincidence that the group they got trounced in were the over 65's who are most unlikely to be across social media, and most likely to believe what the establishment tells them.

As for bennydorano, if it was never on the cards why did Cameron,  Miliband and Clegg rush north 2 weeks ago? Why did Brown take over?  They were shitting themselves.  That intervention and the full on project fear that followed swung it in their favour.  Until then all the momentum was with yes.

They were absolutely shitting themselves that they would be the leaders which lost the Union. Especially Cameron.


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Myles Na G. on September 21, 2014, 09:30:11 AM
There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.
Yep, at least the Scots got the opportunity to cast a vote and have their democratic wishes respected. Ireland will never have that same chance, as the wishes of 20% of the population living in a handful of northern counties are given priority over the wishes of everyone else on the island. If Scotland had voted yes, but a majority in the Highlands and islands had voted to stay in the union, would they have been allowed to separate from the rest of Scotland? Not a chance. They'd have been told to respect the democratic decision and the integrity of the country as a unit would have been upheld. Only in Ireland are we expected to live with the injustice of a partitioned country and the perpetuation of a failed northern state founded and sustained against the will of a majority of people on the island.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 21, 2014, 11:25:32 AM
There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

O flower of Scotland
When will we see your like again
That fought and died for
Your wee bit hill and glen
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

The hills are bare now
And autumn leaves lie thick and still
O'er land that is lost now
Which those so dearly held
And stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

Those days are passed now
And in the past they must remain
But we can still rise now
And be the nation again
That stood against him
Proud Edward's army
And sent him homeward
Tae think again

why wouldnt any scottish yes voter sing this song after losing? When will they see another leader like salmond who got his party to the top and then got a referendum to choose there future and nearly won it. 6% isnt much to lose by in something this big. I wish we had someone here who cared enough about the country to actually try for it rather than taking a dig at each other nd carrying on with the nonsense. And they have definitely sent lilys army home to think again because there is no way the no campaign could win like that again and they have to try and win people over.

So the hills are bare now and they will be for a while but the want won't go away and those who dearly held it will speak again. Ireland had four home rule bills so why would scotland stop at one referendum? Sort out the shortfalls and then bring the arguements back to the table. There were a lot of undecided voters until the end so there are a lot of people who could be swayed and change the majority.

This referendum is passed now and in the past it must remain but they know how to win the next time where as lilys army have to think again about how to beat an idea that wont go away.

Fair play to scotland for even getting a vote for freedom and since it wasnt chosen it should be respected. But if the want is there again they should get votes until the want is gone. I wish I had the same chance for this place.
Yep, at least the Scots got the opportunity to cast a vote and have their democratic wishes respected. Ireland will never have that same chance, as the wishes of 20% of the population living in a handful of northern counties are given priority over the wishes of everyone else on the island. If Scotland had voted yes, but a majority in the Highlands and islands had voted to stay in the union, would they have been allowed to separate from the rest of Scotland? Not a chance. They'd have been told to respect the democratic decision and the integrity of the country as a unit would have been upheld. Only in Ireland are we expected to live with the injustice of a partitioned country and the perpetuation of a failed northern state founded and sustained against the will of a majority of people on the island.

Fair play Myles. Good post.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Sidney on September 21, 2014, 11:37:10 AM
In a parallel world:

Former Prime Minister Lord Bruton of Boyneside and Sir Bob Geldof have made impassioned pleas for Ireland to remain part of the United Kingdom ahead of Friday's referendum on whether Ireland should secede.

"We've fought two World Wars together, and we've been part of the greatest and most successful political union the world has ever seen. It would be tragic to throw away almost 850 years of shared history", said Lord Bruton, who served as Prime Minister from 1990 to 1997 and Chancellor of the Exchequer from 1982 to 1990, and is best remembered for his imposition of the infamous "poll tax" on Ireland, even after it had been dropped in the rest of the Union.

"Ireland is a feeling", said Geldof, in a speech at a rally at the John Redmond Cenotaph in Dublin's Sackville Street, which was also attended by Irish First Minister Enda Kenny and Prime Minister David Cameron.

Geldof has been joined by other famous names from the entertainment world, such as U2's Bono, BBC Ireland's Gay Byrne and Terry Wogan, and ITV Ireland's Ryan Tubridy in calling for a No vote.

Sporting stars such as England and Kilkenny county cricket legend Henry Shefflington, golfer Rory McIlroy, Ireland football star Roy Queen and rugby player Brian O'Driscoll have also been lining up to play their part in the "Better Together" campaign.

Meanwhile former US Open golf champion Graeme McDowell, Ireland cricket captain John Mooney and British Loins rugby captain Sean Cavanagh have been on the receiving end of a tirade of foul-mouthed abuse on Twitter after revealing that they favour independence.

Polls currently show the outcome to be too close to call, but it's thought that a strong Yes vote in areas such as Limerick, Wexford and West Dublin may be cancelled out by similarly strong No votes in Unionist strongholds such as Cork, Kilkenny and Fingal.

The referendum has been played out against a backdrop of controversial issues, such as the location of the UK's Trident Nuclear submarines off the west coast, and the No campaign arguing that revenues from the export of potatoes would be insufficient to run an independent economy. All major national newspapers have called for a No vote, however controversy flared at the weekend after Yes campaign leader Martin McGuinness was compared to Hitler by the Sunday Independent. Irish Times editor Eoghan Harris has said that "separating ourselves from the mainland would be a total disaster".

It's been some campaign and we should know the result some time this afternoon. Think the Nos will have it, myself.



As the polls opened within the last few hours, controversy abounds today over comments by BBC Ireland's Sir Gay Byrne on last night's final "Ireland Decides" debate on Channel 4. Byrne angrily said that "revenues from the export of potatoes are no basis on which to run an economy".

The Irish Dependent leads today with a large colour splash of what the national flag might look like without the cross of St. Patrick and the centre spread features a collage of photographs of memorable sporting successes that Irish athletes have been involved in as part of Team GB, such as Dame Katie Taylor's gold medal at London 2012.

The Independent's editorial says that "an independent Ireland is a pipe dream rooted in fantasy rather than reality. We must vote with our heads."

"You don't simply walk out on a marriage when you have an argument", writes Sir Anthony O'Reilly in the same paper. "This is without doubt a marriage that has stood the test of time and is worth saving."

---------------

McGuinness calls for commemoration of Irish terrorist leaders

Sunday Dependent
September 21st, 2014

Yes campaign leader Martin McGuinness has called for more recognition of historical Irish nationalist leaders. Under McGuinness's proposal, a statue of Charles Stewart Parnell would be erected at the junction of Sackville Street and John Redmond Square. "This is our forgotten war", said McGuinness. "The sacrifice of the rebels of 1798, and men like Wolfe Tone and Robert Emmett also needs to be recognised."

First Minister Enda Kenny and Prime Minister David Cameron have poured cold water on the suggestion, however. "I think it's highly inappropriate to bring something like this up at such a delicate stage in the campaign", said Kenny. Former Prime Minister Lord Boyneside has dismissed McGuinness as "a crank who ended up on the wrong side of history".

-----------

Sport

It's a big night in the Vauxhall Irish Premiership, and all roads lead to Dalymount Park for the Old Firm derby meeting of Bohemians and Shamrock Rovers. There will be a heavy police presence to separate supporters, especially given the tensions over today's referendum. Bohemians supporters have been vocal in their support for a No vote, while Shamrock Rovers supporters, led by the Thomas Davis Ultras (named in honour of the 19th century Irish nationalist agitator) have campaigned strongly for a Yes. "We're bracing ourselves for trouble", said an RIC spokesman.

A win will take Rovers back to the top of the league table, at least temporarily, as leaders Lnfield don't play until tomorrow afternoon, when they travel to bottom of the table Maryborough Town. BBC2 Ireland have live coverage of tonight's match, starting at 7:55pm, with commentary from Jackie Fullerton and Damien Richardson.

------------

Press release from Trans World Sport:

This week Trans World Sport focusses on the annual celebration of Ireland's native sporting pursuits, the Irish Country Games. Held annually over one weekend in Lowry's Field, Thurles, Co. Tipperary, since 1916, local teams compete in the traditional Irish games of cad and hurley.

While the sports have been largely dormant for most of the last century, they have enjoyed something of a revival in recent times. Last year 20 teams entered the cad competition, while 8 teams battled it out in the hurley festival.

Other traditional Irish rural activities such as dancing and music are also celebrated, and to add a touch of glamour, a beauty pageant entitled "The Queen of the Camán" (pronounced "Cayman") is contested by young women from the region. The winner gets to sit on a throne with the best player in the cad competition - The "King of Cad", at the closing ceremony.

The Games have been praised in Lonely Planet's Ireland guidebook as "a unique event - it's difficult for an outsider to tell what's going on most of the time, but the sense of fun surrounding the event is palpable."

The games open with a traditional banshee's cry, and close with a ceremonial burning of a huge paper mache model of the infamous Lough Derg Monster, lit by the man voted the best player in the hurley competition.

Nobody knows whether "Dergie", as he's more popularly known to tourists, really exists, but his annual burning is believed by locals to banish unwanted spirits - but the Irish being the Irish, the copious amounts of whiskey consumed all weekend are certainly not included in that category!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on September 21, 2014, 12:15:18 PM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.
45% was a massive achievement considering all the handicaps of biased media, EU and others ganging up and the rabbit from the hat of greater powers.
The one certainty is that the 45% were committed to the cause while the 555 is split between committed pro Unionists and fearful or dont knows who were swayed by the rabbit from the hat.
I suspect that whole rabbit will unravel as English MPs of all Parties kick up a fuss and hopefully  the new SNP leader plaus all the Yes folks who became politicised will come to the fore and keep up the pressure so that when the next Refernedum is held you will be the 55%.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 21, 2014, 03:25:47 PM
There'll be some banter at the next Calcutta cup game.

I very much doubt it.

There's

a) no banter at a Scottish Rugby ever - it's like being in a library
b) Scottish Rugby fans are drawn from Private School Edinburgh and Borders Farmtouns.  The two sections of the populace that were overwhelmingly pro-Union.


Now, the Scotland-England football match in celtic Park in November might be a little emotionally charged.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 21, 2014, 03:33:54 PM
A lot of very depressed people in Scotland after the result.  However,  given we were up against the Westminster establishment,  the media (only 1 paper supported independence) and the financial world then 45% was a good achievement. I felt 2 weeks ago that we were going to do it but the yes majority poll scared Westminster and we had 10 days of blanket fear coverage with banks and major companies threatening to leave.  That swung people who were moving to yes back to no.

3/4 of over 65's voted no. Give it a few years and we'll be back.
45% was a massive achievement considering all the handicaps of biased media, EU and others ganging up and the rabbit from the hat of greater powers.
The one certainty is that the 45% were committed to the cause while the 555 is split between committed pro Unionists and fearful or dont knows who were swayed by the rabbit from the hat.
I suspect that whole rabbit will unravel as English MPs of all Parties kick up a fuss and hopefully  the new SNP leader plaus all the Yes folks who became politicised will come to the fore and keep up the pressure so that when the next Refernedum is held you will be the 55%.

Here's hoping.

Over 9,000 people have joined the SNP since the referendum, and the membership of the Scottish Greens has doubled. 

The 55% were persuaded by the mainstream media, the 'normal' portion of society.  The 45% aren't going to go away, they were persuaded by social media, work on the street, town hall meetings etc, they're motivated, and they're now a lot better at organising a campaign from the bottom up.

Expect things to get interesting if Westminster don't deliver a new constitutional settlement soon, as the right wing media down here are pushing for a louder English voice to be heard too.

Cameron's 'vow' hasn't saved the Union, it's merely saved his job, and delayed the break-up into someone else's Premiership.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 21, 2014, 06:30:22 PM
Cameron's 'vow' hasn't saved the Union, it's merely saved his job, and delayed the break-up into someone else's Premiership.

I think I agree with that. It'll be interesting to see if the Scots can build on this momentum and get another referendum within the next 15 or 20 years. If the SNP take the Scottish Parliament in a landslide then you could see support for secession growing. I'm surprised only one newspaper supported the nationalists though. If more media outlets swing behind secession then that'll change things, but in the age of media consolidation it's getting harder for that to happen.

I'd hate to see the nationalist movement fizzling out like it seems to have done in Quebec. The Parti Quebecois seems to have a hard time connecting with younger voters and is facing dwindling support, something that cannot be said of the SNP.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 21, 2014, 08:05:59 PM
I'd hate to see the nationalist movement fizzling out like it seems to have done in Quebec. The Parti Quebecois seems to have a hard time connecting with younger voters and is facing dwindling support, something that cannot be said of the SNP.

The Yes Scotland movement was broader brush than just the SNP.  There's also the Greens, Radical Independence, SSP, Solidarity, National Collective, Independence for Women, Shinty for Yes, etc.

Even if the SNP fail to appeal to the youth voter, the more grass roots, informal, livelier elements won't.  e.g. National Collective are a non-party-political collection of pro-Indy artists.

The movement's lost a figurehead in Salmond, but in the face of the media disdain, Yes Scotland was always a street and social media based movement anyway - which is where the young voters are.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 21, 2014, 08:31:17 PM
Shinty for yes? Brilliant.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LondonCamanachd on September 21, 2014, 08:54:47 PM
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Shinty-for-Yes/

Not the biggest movement, but still representing those who wish to be identified as such.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 24, 2014, 07:21:28 PM
What a difference a week makes   :o


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 24, 2014, 08:29:58 PM
What a difference a week makes   :o

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-29342142)

Fixed it for you.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: theskull1 on September 24, 2014, 08:39:10 PM
Cheers
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on January 21, 2015, 10:40:08 PM
With more than half the vote and a first past the post system polls suggest that the SNP will win almost all of the Westminster seats in Scotland, reducing Labour  from 41 to four and the Lib Dems and Tories to zero. Labour has really lost ground because of the referendum.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seanf on January 21, 2015, 10:56:44 PM
The SNP could well win the popular vote but take hardly any extra seats
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on January 21, 2015, 11:05:18 PM
The SNP could well win the popular vote but take hardly any extra seats

Ehh? How'd ye figure that one out?

Considering they currently only have 5 seats out of 60 at the moment if they win the popular vote it would pretty much be impossible for them not to win a ton of extra seats.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on January 21, 2015, 11:09:40 PM
In the first past the post system once you get ahead you win big.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on January 21, 2015, 11:14:06 PM
In the first past the post system once you get ahead you win big.


Somethin like that musta happened tonight in the Athletic grounds ehh? ;)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Maguire01 on January 22, 2015, 09:54:05 PM
The SNP could well win the popular vote but take hardly any extra seats
Given that you don't need to be anywhere close to 50% to take a seat in a FPTP election, the reality is the very opposite of what you say. If they win the popular vote, they'll clean up, but could do so with a much smaller proportion.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on January 23, 2015, 08:49:09 AM
Given the rotten borough nature of Westminster constituencies - the smallest non-island constituency in Scotland has a population of 47,572, the largest a population of 82,473* - it is plausible that the SNP could be the largest party and not win the most seats. But it's unlikely they wouldn't win a lot of extra seats. And once you have a plurality it doesn't take many extra votes for you to go from 'a lot' to 'the lot'.

*stats culled from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_Parliament_constituencies)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on January 23, 2015, 09:30:15 AM
If the SNP vote was very geographically concentrated they might fail to get a full haul of seats, but they have now made progress in all areas.

On an aside, the SNP complained about not being on TV debates when UKIP were. The BBC made some plan for the SNP and now Robinson wants the DUP in on the act.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 11:29:23 PM
One year on and how the landscape has changed...

Almost all of Scotland's Westminster MPs are SNP, plus they took 50% of all votes cast.

Two recent polls finding a majority of Scots are now Pro Independence

Another Tory government was voted in to the loathe of the Scots

A looming Brexit

So..
Was the Indy ref that lit the fuse that is sending our closest neighbours on a unstoppable train toward secession?

Or did the Scots miss the boat?

Or is this all simply a trend that will likely fizzle away with the next political fashion?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: OakleafCounty on September 15, 2015, 07:46:02 AM
Inevitably not everyone will stick with the SNP if/when they don't deliver everything they aim for. If your talking around another 15 years before a referendum the unionist cause might find a way with engaging the public without the stupid scaremongering tactics they have been using.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ashman on September 15, 2015, 09:12:57 AM
Oil prices fooked!!!!!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: GJL on September 15, 2015, 11:49:29 AM
Oil prices fooked!!!!!

Oil is well down. Do you think it is down to stay?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on September 15, 2015, 11:52:24 AM
Oil prices fooked!!!!!

Oil is well down. Do you think it is down to stay?

Read that somewhere but for some reason the fuel prices started creeping up at the pump again, feckin bolloxes!
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 15, 2015, 12:09:22 PM
Is there a clamour in Norway to rejoin the union with Sweden, what with the fall in oil prices?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 15, 2015, 02:08:46 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AZOffaly on September 15, 2015, 02:27:33 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.

Whatever about it being sad, I think the rest is spot on. It seems they want a strong scottish voice in Westminster, but that's the key part of the sentence, 'in Westminster'.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: GJL on September 15, 2015, 03:05:28 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.

Whatever about it being sad, I think the rest is spot on. It seems they want a strong scottish voice in Westminster, but that's the key part of the sentence, 'in Westminster'.

I'm not so sure. They were not that far away the last time and only for a lot of promises made by the Brits they might have made it. Those promises have not been fully kept so next time around you never know.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ashman on September 15, 2015, 03:59:32 PM
Is there a clamour in Norway to rejoin the union with Sweden, what with the fall in oil prices?

The dilemma of the divorcee who got the snip and then ......
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on September 15, 2015, 04:11:08 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.

Whatever about it being sad, I think the rest is spot on. It seems they want a strong scottish voice in Westminster, but that's the key part of the sentence, 'in Westminster'.

I'm not so sure. They were not that far away the last time and only for a lot of promises made by the Brits they might have made it. Those promises have not been fully kept so next time around you never know.

To the previous two posts you're analysis is outdated. I know quite a few Scots and many were completely embarrassed about the result last year, their opinion has shifted from "maybe, suppose it would be nice" to "dam right we should"

And given that 45% voted for independence and 50% voted for the SNP at the recent elections, therefore at the most you are only talking about 5% of Scots who think the way of your conclusions.

As a comparison for reference, Sinn Fein only got 47% of the popular vote in 1918 which lead directly to independence.

There was a fundamental shift in how the Scots think during indieref. Independence in Scotland has all of a sudden become a very mainstream issue. Whether this fashion continues to grow, or fizzlesout before independence is achieved is the question.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on September 15, 2015, 04:22:50 PM
Is there a clamour in Norway to rejoin the union with Sweden, what with the fall in oil prices?

The dilemma of the divorcee who got the snip and then ......

That's a good way of putting it.  :D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: deiseach on September 15, 2015, 04:29:20 PM
Is there a clamour in Norway to rejoin the union with Sweden, what with the fall in oil prices?

The dilemma of the divorcee who got the snip and then ......


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on September 15, 2015, 04:36:27 PM
Is there a clamour in Norway to rejoin the union with Sweden, what with the fall in oil prices?

The dilemma of the divorcee who got the snip and then ......




Ran into a fella a few weeks back... 28yo with a 6 month old baby and he was gonna get it done.
 :o
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 15, 2015, 06:04:12 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.

Whatever about it being sad, I think the rest is spot on. It seems they want a strong scottish voice in Westminster, but that's the key part of the sentence, 'in Westminster'.

I'm not so sure. They were not that far away the last time and only for a lot of promises made by the Brits they might have made it. Those promises have not been fully kept so next time around you never know.

To the previous two posts you're analysis is outdated. I know quite a few Scots and many were completely embarrassed about the result last year, their opinion has shifted from "maybe, suppose it would be nice" to "dam right we should"

And given that 45% voted for independence and 50% voted for the SNP at the recent elections, therefore at the most you are only talking about 5% of Scots who think the way of your conclusions.

As a comparison for reference, Sinn Fein only got 47% of the popular vote in 1918 which lead directly to independence.

There was a fundamental shift in how the Scots think during indieref. Independence in Scotland has all of a sudden become a very mainstream issue. Whether this fashion continues to grow, or fizzlesout before independence is achieved is the question.


It's alright talking tough but when it comes to it they will bottle it again.....as they have always done throughout history. Singing an anthem about fighting and dying and they couldn't even mange to vote for the bloody thing. I'll believe it when I see it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: omaghjoe on September 15, 2015, 06:15:14 PM
I stiil think the Scots don't really want independence. They'll happily vote for the SNP in Westminster elections but independence is another step down the road. I don't think they have the belief in themselves that they can go it alone and they quite like giving out about the English. I find that sad to be honest.

Whatever about it being sad, I think the rest is spot on. It seems they want a strong scottish voice in Westminster, but that's the key part of the sentence, 'in Westminster'.

I'm not so sure. They were not that far away the last time and only for a lot of promises made by the Brits they might have made it. Those promises have not been fully kept so next time around you never know.

To the previous two posts you're analysis is outdated. I know quite a few Scots and many were completely embarrassed about the result last year, their opinion has shifted from "maybe, suppose it would be nice" to "dam right we should"

And given that 45% voted for independence and 50% voted for the SNP at the recent elections, therefore at the most you are only talking about 5% of Scots who think the way of your conclusions.

As a comparison for reference, Sinn Fein only got 47% of the popular vote in 1918 which lead directly to independence.

There was a fundamental shift in how the Scots think during indieref. Independence in Scotland has all of a sudden become a very mainstream issue. Whether this fashion continues to grow, or fizzlesout before independence is achieved is the question.


It's alright talking tough but when it comes to it they will bottle it again.....as they have always done throughout history. Singing an anthem about fighting and dying and they couldn't even mange to vote for the bloody thing. I'll believe it when I see it.

Actually the referendum result surpassed any fair or logical expectations for "Yes". There was a massive surge throughout the indieref campaign towards Yes and that's been maintained and continued since.

As for the fighting and dying... "Those days are past now, and in the past they must remain"
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: magpie seanie on September 16, 2015, 12:29:49 PM
We'll agree to disagree for now omaghjoe but I'll watch to see with interest if you are right. You're probably closer to things that I am so maybe my perception differs from the reality.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on June 26, 2016, 07:28:44 PM
This Brexit thing has moved a few from one side to the other on this matter.

A Panelbase survey for the Sunday Times indicated an almost direct reversal of the result of the 2014 referendum, with 52% in favour of independence, up seven points, and 48% against, down seven points.

The snapshot of 620 adults also found that 52% thought Scotland was likely to become independent within 10 years, rising from 30% when the same question was asked in April.

A poll for the Sunday Post that asked respondents how they would vote if a second referendum were held tomorrow, revealed 59% would vote yes to independence, 32% no and 9% undecided.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on June 26, 2016, 07:48:39 PM
Brexit changes everything . 100000 jobs could be lost in banking.
Splits the Tory party apart. Could see the UK break up
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: muppet on June 26, 2016, 08:24:58 PM
This Brexit thing has moved a few from one side to the other on this matter.

A Panelbase survey for the Sunday Times indicated an almost direct reversal of the result of the 2014 referendum, with 52% in favour of independence, up seven points, and 48% against, down seven points.

The snapshot of 620 adults also found that 52% thought Scotland was likely to become independent within 10 years, rising from 30% when the same question was asked in April.

A poll for the Sunday Post that asked respondents how they would vote if a second referendum were held tomorrow, revealed 59% would vote yes to independence, 32% no and 9% undecided.


If there is one thing that we learned from Brexit, it is that everyone grossly overestimates the accuracy of polls.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: No wides on June 27, 2016, 08:20:56 AM
Brexit could make the Union stronger - looks like Scotland has to leave with UK and if they get independence re-apply, which would mean them having to take the Euro.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on June 27, 2016, 09:37:53 AM
Who says Scotland would have to reapply?
They are already in it and no doubt arrangements to remain would be negotiated as part of the England/ Wales exit.
Who said they " will have to take the Euro"?
10 or 11 of the current members aren't in the €zone.

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Clov on June 27, 2016, 10:00:46 AM
They won't have to "take the euro" immediately to join the EU, but any new candidate countries have to make a commitment to adopting the single currency in time.

The currency issue is one of the biggest stumbling blocks for the Scot's independence movement. Adopting the Euro would most likely be very unpopular.

I wonder though is there a scenario where they force the abandonment of Brexit through the courts, and then exit the union (which would be damaged irreparably at that stage) while retaining some sort of status quo with the EU?
(Though Spain would probably block that last bit).
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on June 27, 2016, 10:04:17 AM
If the UK breaks up , Catalonia will go for independence.
Maybe the Brits could give Spain Gibraltar as compensation
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on June 27, 2016, 10:19:49 AM
If there is one thing that we learned from Brexit, it is that everyone grossly overestimates the accuracy of polls.

I don't know that we did learn this. The polls weren't that far off, as many showed a Leave majority in the last couple of weeks. What throws the polls off is the differential turnout.

If the Scottish poll with 59% out, 32% in and 9% undecided was in any way professionally conducted, then that suggests a majority.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Clov on June 27, 2016, 10:29:48 AM
The polls, bookmakers and markets were wrong at the death though as they all were pointing to a narrow remain vote.

One theory i heard was that a failure to take account of postal votes might have led to an overconfidence in the remain votes. Apparently 20% of the electorate were registered to vote by postal votes. As they were cast a couple of weeks in advance (significantly, before the murder of Jo Cox), their distribution may have reflected a different mood among voters that pertained then - they're also older voters and more likely to vote leave anyway. May be the pollsters et al accurately gauged the mood of the electorate on the day of the vote but that it was the postal voters "wot won it".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on March 09, 2017, 02:03:28 PM
Another Scottish poll showing 50/50 today and Nicola Sturgeon is on TV tonight apparently musing about a date for a referendum.
http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-independence-poll-says-indyref2-yes-vote-at-50-1-4387435

all of this could considerably affect the mood music in the 6 counties.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on March 13, 2017, 08:23:17 PM
Starting gun fired on Indyref#2

Scottish independence: Nicola Sturgeon to seek second referendum - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-39255181

Doomed to fail by a bigger margin than the first imo & quite possibly destroy the Independence movement for many years to come.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 13, 2017, 08:39:07 PM
Based on?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: bennydorano on March 13, 2017, 09:10:51 PM
Based on my opinion.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: LCohen on March 13, 2017, 09:12:56 PM
Based on?

I'm guessing opinion polls and economics.

Sturgeon wants Independence. She doesn't want a referendum. Not now. She wants concessions. She might get them. More Nissan than William Wallace
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on March 13, 2017, 09:19:02 PM
Based on?

I'm guessing opinion polls and economics.

Sturgeon wants Independence. She doesn't want a referendum. Not now. She wants concessions. She might get them. More Nissan than William Wallace

There is a lot of truth in this and she may do the rest of us some good also in that she may have taken wind out of the sails of the gung-ho hard Brexit lunatics.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 13, 2017, 09:35:32 PM
May mightn't allow it.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Olly on March 13, 2017, 10:26:30 PM
Would Scotland be a poor country then?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Ronnie on March 13, 2017, 11:01:15 PM
Depends what you mean by 'poor'.  Interesting times.  I laughed out loud when Theresa May said that "Politics is not a game" and I haven't lol-ed since I found out what lol meant.  Britain is a genuinely funny country.  Constitutionally it's always been all over the place.  In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein should be concentrating on collating the obvious anti-Brexit alliance rather than hanging the future of any Stormont government on who leads the DUP.  They would be surprised just how many small u unionists are out there.  It should also consider taking their few seats at Westminster.  I'd said NI will be used as a test case before any 2nd referendum.  If there's no special status for us then Scotland will definitely have to abide by the will of the entire British people.  No doubt there'll have to be some internal allowances made.  Voters see through out-dated dogma and it's usually counter-productive as Jeremy Corbyn is finding to his cost.  As May has said more the once "Brexit means Brexit".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 13, 2017, 11:20:56 PM
Would Scotland be a poor country then?
According to Scot Nats it's one of the richest countries in the world.
It has oil.
I suspect the SNP are angling for some special status type deal.
They've stolen Brexit's thunder as I believe the trigger isn't  being pulled tomorrow as planned.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on March 13, 2017, 11:41:00 PM
Would Scotland be a poor country then?

They'd never be generous with their expenditure.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 14, 2017, 08:02:49 AM
The 26 counties left the UK under circumstances similar to what we see now. Public opinion can change very quickly as in the 1918 election. In 2014 Cameron  and his campaign told the Jocks  that union was the only guarantee of access to the single market. ....
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 14, 2017, 11:27:03 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/14/five-charts-show-economically-risky-scottish-independence-would/
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Avondhu star on March 14, 2017, 11:36:33 AM
May mightn't allow it.
If the Scottish people vote for independence then what May allows or not allows shouldnt matter. What is she going to do? Send the Paras into Midlothian?
We will see how determined the Scottish are then.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 14, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/14/five-charts-show-economically-risky-scottish-independence-would/
The "Torygraph" ::)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Horse Box on March 14, 2017, 12:07:14 PM
May mightn't allow it.
If the Scottish people vote for independence then what May allows or not allows shouldnt matter. What is she going to do? Send the Paras into Midlothian?
We will see how determined the Scottish are then.

 :o , Midlothian and indeed Edinburgh voted roughly 60% No last time around . More likely the send the murderous b@stards into Dundee or the West of Scotland !
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Farrandeelin on March 14, 2017, 01:03:33 PM
May mightn't allow it.
If the Scottish people vote for independence then what May allows or not allows shouldnt matter. What is she going to do? Send the Paras into Midlothian?
We will see how determined the Scottish are then.
I meant she might not allow the referendum to be called. After all she's the leader of the Conservative and Unionist party.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggysego on March 14, 2017, 01:44:04 PM
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2017/03/14/five-charts-show-economically-risky-scottish-independence-would/

They also claimed there was very little oil left in Scotland, but miraculously more oil was found the day AFTER the referendum.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Hereiam on March 14, 2017, 02:27:04 PM
I would bet there is a shit load of oil under the north sea yet, at this very moment in time the British are currently shipping one of the largest oil rigs ever built from China to the north sea, not due to arrive until June.
Its like have a bag of sweets and telling your friends that they are nearly all gone because you know every bastard will want them.
As said before on here if Scotland do vote to leave do people really think that the British will just give up the oil.... no chance
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 14, 2017, 02:33:41 PM
Why do ye think the SNP want the vote before the Brexit happens?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: ziggysego on March 14, 2017, 02:43:37 PM
Why do ye think the SNP want the vote before the Brexit happens?

Harder to get into the European Union from the outside. If the Scottish vote Leave in the referendum, they have a better case to fight to remain in the EU outside of the UK.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 14, 2017, 02:54:16 PM
I would bet there is a shit load of oil under the north sea yet, at this very moment in time the British are currently shipping one of the largest oil rigs ever built from China to the north sea, not due to arrive until June.
Its like have a bag of sweets and telling your friends that they are nearly all gone because you know every b**tard will want them.
As said before on here if Scotland do vote to leave do people really think that the British will just give up the oil.... no chance

lol ... There's years & years of oil left in it via existing wells and there are new discoveries being made on a regular basis..
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: johnneycool on March 14, 2017, 10:20:42 PM
Why do ye think the SNP want the vote before the Brexit happens?

I'd say it's to see what sort of deal May can get on brexit and allow Scots to decide on independence/remain in the EU or remain part of the UK
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2017, 09:57:54 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: north_antrim_hound on March 15, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.

Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
Even if they didn't when you look at countries like Denmark who has an oil industry that is state owned and distributed for the good of its people instead of enhancing oil companies profits
Scotland is in a good place regardless
Why was Cameron and co up begging the Scottish electorate to stay in the U.K. When the opinion polls got hairy


Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 15, 2017, 01:00:29 PM
2014 is so long ago now

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/15/theresa-may-dragging-uk-under-scotland-must-cut-rope
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 02:52:27 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.

Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
Even if they didn't when you look at countries like Denmark who has an oil industry that is state owned and distributed for the good of its people instead of enhancing oil companies profits
Scotland is in a good place regardless
Why was Cameron and co up begging the Scottish electorate to stay in the U.K. When the opinion polls got hairy

The Norwegian Oil fund is the best example of how to really benefit from your natural resources .. They actually make more now from the fund than they do from the oil revenue.... Its the largest investment fund in the world.

 https://eiti.org/news/norway-revenue-from-oil-fund-now-exceeds-revenue-from-oil

Fantastic ..
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Main Street on March 15, 2017, 03:30:36 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.
]Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
A piece of pish that's for sure, of course Scotland's a nation and not a region looking for autonomy.  And what's left of the UK would also have to abide by the referendum and recognise Scotland a (real) nation once again.

 Scotland's Status as a Nation    By David Thomson
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/nation_status.htm (http://www.electricscotland.com/history/articles/nation_status.htm)

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: north_antrim_hound on March 15, 2017, 04:07:14 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.

Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
Even if they didn't when you look at countries like Denmark who has an oil industry that is state owned and distributed for the good of its people instead of enhancing oil companies profits
Scotland is in a good place regardless
Why was Cameron and co up begging the Scottish electorate to stay in the U.K. When the opinion polls got hairy

The Norwegian Oil fund is the best example of how to really benefit from your natural resources .. They actually make more now from the fund than they do from the oil revenue.... Its the largest investment fund in the world.

 https://eiti.org/news/norway-revenue-from-oil-fund-now-exceeds-revenue-from-oil

Fantastic ..

That's the lines I was thinking
I remember when the republic sold of its rights for all the natural gas of the west coast to shell ( I think ) for a pittence of what it was worth thinking what a load of tossers
Some clowns in office north and south
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 04:18:38 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.

Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
Even if they didn't when you look at countries like Denmark who has an oil industry that is state owned and distributed for the good of its people instead of enhancing oil companies profits
Scotland is in a good place regardless
Why was Cameron and co up begging the Scottish electorate to stay in the U.K. When the opinion polls got hairy

The Norwegian Oil fund is the best example of how to really benefit from your natural resources .. They actually make more now from the fund than they do from the oil revenue.... Its the largest investment fund in the world.

 https://eiti.org/news/norway-revenue-from-oil-fund-now-exceeds-revenue-from-oil

Fantastic ..

That's the lines I was thinking
I remember when the republic sold of its rights for all the natural gas of the west coast to shell ( I think ) for a pittence of what it was worth thinking what a load of t**sers
Some clowns in office north and south

Yeah, real strategic thinkers  ::) lol
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: foxcommander on March 15, 2017, 04:24:52 PM
https://www.ft.com/content/b6560b3e-ce54-3d04-a7e7-70b61e06b587

                     Once upon a time, wise British small-c conservatives and small-u unionists knew better than to meddle with constitutional matters. Even though, from time to time, constitutional changes were necessary, they were not to be entered into lightly. You never knew what would happen next.The folly of David Cameron’s un-conservative referendum on UK membership of the EU now has a fresh consequence: today, the Scottish first minister Nicola Sturgeon said there should be a new independence referendum once the UK’s terms of departure were obvious. The date for such a referendum will be between autumn 2018 and spring 2019. The union with Scotland is therefore at stake.

She has a point. There can be no serious argument that Brexit will not be a “significant and material” change in Scotland’s position within the UK. If a hard Brexit is not such a change, it is difficult to think what would be. The wording matters, as the first minister’s political party the SNP was elected as the largest party in the Scottish parliament with a manifesto that said there could be a further independence referendum in the event of a “significant and material” change.Ms Sturgeon says she is offering “clear and decisive” leadership. In the sense that she is showing a path to a new referendum, she is indeed doing so. But beyond the referendum, things are not clear. There is no guarantee that an independent Scotland would be able to join (or rejoin) the EU — or even the European Free Trade Association or the European Economic Area. There are reasons why member states such as Spain, with their own separatist movements, may not want to send any signal that separatism prospers.So, without a plan for what happens in the event of a yes vote, the first minister will join Mr Cameron in having sought a referendum without a clear path for what happens next in respect of relations with the EU — especially if Europe does not play along with what suits Scotland. The problems of a hard Brexit will be compounded if Scotland ends up outside both the EU and the UK. And that is a real possibility if there is no clear pathway to EU membership or a similar status.But Ms Sturgeon must be right to raise the independence issue and to do so at this stage. The UK is, explicitly, a union of kingdoms — and political unions can dissolve as well as be forged.

The history of Europe has seen many unions and federations come and go. Scotland kept its legal system after the union of 1707 (indeed Scots law has more in common with continental “civilian” legal systems than with English or Irish law). It also has long had its own established church and education system. Even before modern devolution it was a state in its own right. There is nothing inevitable about the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland just as there was nothing inevitable about the “ever closer union” of EU member states.Just as wise conservatives knew not to meddle lightly in constitutional matters, wise unionists realised that the marriage of the nations comprising the UK needed constant care and attention. Stability of both the constitution and the union with Scotland (and Northern Ireland) should not be taken for granted. The constitutional and legal bonds that keep the UK together are not tied for all time.

The knots can be undone, or cut. Or the bonds can snap.The political merits of Brexit and of Scottish independence are one thing — but politics takes place within a framework provided by constitutional arrangements. Brexit started with what Mr Cameron must have thought was a clever wheeze to gain political advantage: the calling of a EU referendum that he assumed he would win easily. The clever wheeze is now shaking the pillars of the UK state.Leaving the EU is being used as the pretext for an immense power-grab by Whitehall by means of a Great Repeal Bill with wider governmental discretion. The House of Lords and the courts are dismissed as little more than enemies of the people. The referendum — and its attendant “mandate of the people” — continues to disrupt the checks and balances of what was once a parliamentary democracy.It would be ironic if the constitutional integrity of the UK was destroyed because of the successive actions of two big-c Conservative prime ministers. The full name of the Tory party is the Conservative and Unionist party: but Brexit means it is neither conservative nor unionist in any meaningful way.The current Conservative government is taking Brexit seriously — of that there can be no doubt. But it no longer seems to be taking either the constitution or the union seriously.

And once there is no one left to defend the constitution and the union, there can be no surprise if executive disregard for settled checks and balances, and shifts towards independence, follow. Nothing is left to stop them.There seems to be a looming choice for the UK government: is a hard Brexit more important than the union with Scotland? Once upon a time, wise conservatives and unionists would have known the answer. Now, those calling themselves Conservatives and Unionists do little more than shrug.

Disagree with the part on the EU would be reluctant to exept Scotland if the referendum went to independence
Even if they didn't when you look at countries like Denmark who has an oil industry that is state owned and distributed for the good of its people instead of enhancing oil companies profits
Scotland is in a good place regardless
Why was Cameron and co up begging the Scottish electorate to stay in the U.K. When the opinion polls got hairy

The Norwegian Oil fund is the best example of how to really benefit from your natural resources .. They actually make more now from the fund than they do from the oil revenue.... Its the largest investment fund in the world.

 https://eiti.org/news/norway-revenue-from-oil-fund-now-exceeds-revenue-from-oil

Fantastic ..

That's the lines I was thinking
I remember when the republic sold of its rights for all the natural gas of the west coast to shell ( I think ) for a pittence of what it was worth thinking what a load of t**sers
Some clowns in office north and south

Thank you Ray Burke. Instead we get austerity.

http://www.shelltosea.com/content/gas-oil-robbery

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 05:10:44 PM
more of the same .....

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/how-black-gold-was-hijacked-north-sea-oil-and-the-betrayal-of-scotland-518697.html

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Real Talk on March 15, 2017, 05:18:02 PM
Who actually owns the North Sea ?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 05:40:32 PM
Who actually owns the North Sea ?

Most of the area where the big UK bucks were being (and still are) made are in Scottish waters, though I do remember reading somewhere where Tony Blairs government had somewhat surreptitiously moved the English rights further North ... Would need to look that up though ..
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 05:46:55 PM
Who actually owns the North Sea ?

Most of the area where the big bucks were being (and still are) made are in Scottish waters, though I do remember reading somewhere where Tony Blairs government had somewhat surreptitiously moved the English rights further North ... Would need to look that up though ..

Yep, found it ....

http://www.oilofscotland.org/scotlands_stolen_sea.html

http://newsnet.scot/archive/former-ambassador-reveals-labour-role-in-annexation-of-scottish-waters/
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: AhNowRef on March 15, 2017, 05:54:47 PM
Yeiks .. this explains it very well ... Feckin hell  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 16, 2017, 01:49:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RWsyN2jDPc
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on March 19, 2017, 01:51:31 AM

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Syferus on March 19, 2017, 03:27:14 AM
Lads. Scotland will never have the balls to go it alone.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: armaghniac on February 25, 2020, 12:08:06 AM
Float in German Karneval parade

Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2020, 04:20:29 PM
Alex Salmond cleared of all (trumped up??) charges.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 23, 2020, 07:48:31 PM
Alex Salmond cleared of all (trumped up??) charges.
Does look like he was stitched up.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 23, 2020, 08:04:18 PM
Oppose the Brit establishment...
Parnell, the "German plot", Stalker........
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Main Street on March 23, 2020, 09:37:21 PM
His defence was that he was cad and a bounder, who behaved badly towards women under his "command", but it wasn't criminal. ;D

His testimony in the most serious charge of assault with intent to rape,  that "he pinned her on a bed and forced his hands up her skirt"
Salmond answered in court that he and the woman had fallen onto the bed in a “sleepy cuddle” after drinking a potent Chinese spirit while they worked.  That charge was not proven. His account of the encounter is corny beyond belief but it happens to support his defence that he was cad and a bounder, who behaved badly to women under his "command".
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 24, 2020, 01:46:40 PM
Oppose the Brit establishment...
Parnell, the "German plot", Stalker........
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/03/24/alex-salmonds-trial-may-rifts-ripped-snp-apart-remain/
What the High Court witnessed was the culmination of a bitter internal war that had riven the SNP since it lost the independence referendum in 2014; a war between supporters of the present First Minister and those of Mr Salmond.
Battered and bruised by that 2014 loss, policy and personal differences in the SNP's higher ranks intensified to such an extent that for much of the last three years Scotland's governing party had become not one but two entities: one supporting Ms Sturgeon and the other backing Mr Salmond.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2020, 03:34:05 PM
That must be why they gained those 11 or 12 seats in the General Election ;D
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Minder on March 24, 2020, 07:40:31 PM
So did wee Jimmy Krankie set Salmond up ?
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 24, 2020, 08:28:14 PM
Telegraph.....enough said
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2020, 01:37:34 AM
Yeiks .. this explains it very well ... Feckin hell  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-braces-itself-fallout-after-21742371.amp
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Antrim Coaster on March 25, 2020, 11:17:42 AM
Yeiks .. this explains it very well ... Feckin hell  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-braces-itself-fallout-after-21742371.amp

You wouldn't take anything the Daily Record says seriously, especially after one of their succulent lamb sports journalists proudly proclaimed that a Motherwell born billionaire with wealth beyond the radar was going take over Rangers (1872) and fund a player recruitment drive to launch an assault on the Champions League which will leave Celtic trailing in their wake.

Tabloid rubbish at its best
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 25, 2020, 06:25:26 PM
Yeiks .. this explains it very well ... Feckin hell  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-braces-itself-fallout-after-21742371.amp

You wouldn't take anything the Daily Record says seriously, especially after one of their succulent lamb sports journalists proudly proclaimed that a Motherwell born billionaire with wealth beyond the radar was going take over Rangers (1872) and fund a player recruitment drive to launch an assault on the Champions League which will leave Celtic trailing in their wake.

Tabloid rubbish at its best
Tabloid political correspondents are usually on the ball
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Rossfan on March 25, 2020, 07:24:42 PM
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daily_Record_(Scotland)&ved=2ahUKEwijj968rLboAhUbQRUIHc5LBVcQFjASegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw2L_nWLDQ2z4J701jlb6XnU


Labour/Unionist ;)
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Main Street on March 25, 2020, 09:30:35 PM
Yeiks .. this explains it very well ... Feckin hell  :o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfbfldSrJ-0

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/snp-braces-itself-fallout-after-21742371.amp

You wouldn't take anything the Daily Record says seriously, especially after one of their succulent lamb sports journalists proudly proclaimed that a Motherwell born billionaire with wealth beyond the radar was going take over Rangers (1872) and fund a player recruitment drive to launch an assault on the Champions League which will leave Celtic trailing in their wake.

Tabloid rubbish at its best
Tabloid political correspondents are usually on the ball
That article from that tabloid political correspondent is very poor. Regardless of the Record's disreputable tabloid status, Salmond did indicate post verdict that there would be a civil war of sorts. Considering his age, his portly heart attack imminent demeanor, the evidence from 9 women (the court's verdict notwithstanding), I would have thought his political career is toast. Sturgeon has impressed as SNP party leader. Though I haven't a clue about the SNP's potential to self destruct with the party at an all time high.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: seafoid on March 27, 2020, 03:59:30 PM
3rd attempt

https://www.ft.com/content/0cafd93c-6d2a-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

Pressure from Salmond supporters will not be the only post-trial problem for Ms Sturgeon. Opposition parties are pushing for a full accounting of what the current first minister knew about allegations of misconduct against her predecessor and when she knew it.  The trial also raises questions for the civil service. Three male senior civil servants called as witnesses told the court that after the 2013 incident at Bute House, arrangements were changed to prevent female staff from being alone with the first minister, particularly in the evenings.  And Alex Bell, a former policy adviser to Mr Salmond, told the court that three years earlier there had been concerns then about him being alone with female colleagues.  The full political ramifications of Mr Salmond’s acquittal are likely to be delayed by the UK’s developing coronavirus crisis, however. The former first minister said he would not immediately share the information on the case because of the epidemic, telling journalists gathered at the court that it was not safe to be there and they should “go home”.  Opposition parties will also be cautious about focusing too much on the issue before coronavirus is tamed. Last week, Jackson Carlaw, leader of the Scottish Conservatives, gave Ms Sturgeon a fulsome endorsement, saying he had “every confidence in her to lead the country’s response to this crisis at this time”.  On Monday, Mr Carlaw said the “serious questions” Ms Sturgeon and the SNP faced would be deferred. “The court case may be over, but for them this is just the beginning,” he said.
Title: Re: Scottish independence referendum thread
Post by: Main Street on March 29, 2020, 08:27:17 PM
Salmond is smoked

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-52078493
Alex Salmond's accusers 'devastated' by court verdict

The women who made sexual assault allegations against Alex Salmond say they have been left "devastated" after he was cleared in court. A jury found the former first minister not guilty on 12 of the sexual assault charges facing him, while another was found not proven. A further charge of sexually assaulting a 10th woman had previously been dropped by prosecutors.
Mr Salmond maintained he was innocent throughout the two-week trial.
A legal representative of Mr Salmond has been contacted by the BBC but declined to comment on the women's statement.
The nine women insisted they would not let the former SNP leader being acquitted define them.
And they said that while the experience of taking the case to court had been "traumatic", it had been the "right thing to do".

They recalled that Mr Salmond's lawyer, Gordon Jackson QC, had quoted Woman H and said his client "should have been a better man". In her evidence to the court, Woman H had said: "I wish for my life the first minister was a better man and I was not here."

"Many of us did speak up at the time of our incidents but were faced with procedures that could not deal with complaints against such a powerful figure. Others were silenced by fear of repercussions.


Their full statement pulls no punches

“Some say that women’s fight for respect has gone ‘too far’. We argue it has far to go,” they added.

“For too long, behaviour which should be condemned has been accepted and excused. For too long perpetrators in positions of power have been shielded by their ability to influence and intimidate.  

“For too long women’s complaints have been dismissed or swept under the carpet.  And for too long, women have been let down by organisational structures which should exist to protect them, not put them in situations which endanger their welfare.

“This must end.”