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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

Title: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:10:58 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a b**tard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 14, 2012, 06:14:53 PM
That right to bear arms was back in the day when the wild west wasn't even discovered yet. How it still around 200yrs later when the west is wild no more, beats me. Its abit like a Orange man round here bleating on about his right to walks the queens highway cause he always done it. Way of life got to change with the times
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 14, 2012, 06:20:41 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 06:52:29 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"

You are so right, the only neandertals are republican voters! ::)

Gun sales are not through the roof, that is bullshit.

Obama is toothless when it comes to gun control, this will test his leadership and we will see if he has it in him to attack the NRA, somebody needs to have the stones to do so, I fear none will.

I am all for a family having a small calibre pistol or even a shotgun if they hunt, after that I am opposed to people having guns in any form, they are un-necessary and for people to have semi automatic and automatic weapons is madness and a recipe for disaster.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 06:54:13 PM
The gun business is booming. The question is, why?


BreBa | Getty Images
Smith & Wesson stock Friday was zooming, thanks to a stellar earnings report. The firearms maker also boosted its outlook for the rest of the year. Because of the strong business, its backlog of orders more than doubled from the same quarter last year, the company is concentrating on boosting production and building inventory.

“We are underserving the market at this moment, we all know that, and that's a great opportunity going forward for us,” CEO James Debney said in a conference call with analysts.

And another gun maker, Sturm, Ruger & Co., also hit a milestone of sorts in terms of meeting consumer demand. It produced its one-millionth gun of the year…well ahead of last year’s pace.

"It took us nearly all of 2011 to build one million firearms, but in 2012 we accomplished it on August 15th,” said Ruger President and CEO Mike Fifer in a statement.

What’s driving the demand that has gun makers cranking up production?

Speculation has focused on fears of a coming regulatory crackdown on gun ownership. Liberal administrations tend to be anti-gun and so, the thinking goes, an Obama re-election would set the stage for stricter gun purchasing requirements. Hence, people are buying now in anticipation of difficulty later.


Indeed, looking at background checks for gun sales (a metric commonly used to gauge general industry performance) 2009 showed a measureable increase that many attributed to Obama’s election.

Is it the same this year? Some anecdotal evidence tends to bear that out.

“I should put Obama’s picture on the wall up there,” said one New Jersey gun salesman, asking not to be identified. “I’d name him salesman of the month!”

But it’s not universal. Some suggest it may be less about regulatory worries and more about the immediate economy. (Related: Are You Better Off?)

“Sure, about a third of it is politics,” said a Maryland salesman, who also didn't want to be named. “But the majority are people concerned about safety. They are worried about crime and looking at the economy and no one having jobs. They want to be protected now. So they’re buying.”

"The biggest new group of buyers now are senior citizens," Larry Hyatt, owner of a North Carolina gun shop, said on CNBC's "Closing Bell." "Ten thousand Baby Boomers a day are turning 65; they can't run, they can't fight, they got to shoot."

The motivation behind the rush could be key to how long the gun makers enjoy the surge in business. Fears of overregulation could dissipate rapidly after the current election season is over, since there was no major change to gun regulations after Obama was elected the first time. Indeed, one analyst downgraded Smith & Wesson and Ruger stock last month, citing fears that their torrid sales pace this year is unsustainable.

Not all analysts agree, however.

"We think there is broader drivers, broader acceptance of the use of guns and more target shooting," said Cai Von Rumohr, an analyst with Cowen & Co., also appearing on CNBC. "So we think it's more than just safety and more than just fear of not being able to buy guns."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on December 14, 2012, 07:23:37 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a b**tard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.

How're you going to hunt with those? Background checks and having guns secured even in your own house would be good starts.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on December 14, 2012, 07:27:56 PM
If today's events don't wake them up then nothing will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 07:36:17 PM
If today's events don't wake them up then nothing will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 14, 2012, 08:46:20 PM
When are Americans going to learn to ban guns, how many people are going to be killed until someone stand up to the NRA, another terrible tragedy unfolding in America, Simple solution, the NRA charm offensive solution will be to buy more guns, hows that help defenseless school children you idiots.When will someone take the bull by the horns and seriously tackle gun control even if it would cost them 1 term in the white house

Listen to yourself, who the hell is going to give up a term in the white house????

The NRA are extremely powerful, this country beat the Brits with great aid given by militia's, gun culture is ingrained into their society and total gun control is never, and I repeat never going to happen in the USA.

Why any man needs a sub machine gun is beyond me, I coached a kid a few years back whose da is a multi millionaire seller of guns, he made the mistake of selling a gun to a b**tard who ended up kiling people on a University campus, he has been under fire for years and the feds are building  a case against him because all was not well with the sale, the NRA are backing him to the hilt with not a penny from his own pocket being spent on his own defence.

I dont think anyone should own more than a shotgun or a small caliber pistol, but the yanks will always be able to by widowmakers of al shapes and sizes as it is written into their constitution that they have the right to bear arms, good luck taking that away from them.

How're you going to hunt with those? Background checks and having guns secured even in your own house would be good starts.

All right, i forgot to add a hunting rifle.

If someone was breaking into your home you need to have the ability to get at your weapon (if you have one) quickly, I have a gun, albeit a small caliber weapon and I hav e a safety lock on it at all times, it is never loaded however the bullets are close at hand, ov er here you have to assume burgulars are armed, and if they come into our house they are going to get a gun pointed at their heads.

I am not going to take any chances with some fcuker breaking into our place, who knows what they would do once in there, i have three wemen in the house, their safety is paramount.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 14, 2012, 09:27:40 PM
would you believe this is actually a statistics problem?

The main issue here is that people are absolutely crap at processing probabilities. in general- and probabilities of things happening to them are processed even worse. And its just coincidence that the Gun lobby preys on your fears (AKA LIES) and your complete and utter lack of comprehension of statistics.

 see here for info http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=why-our-brains-do-not-intuitively-grasp-probabilities

so people buy guns, because in their opinion, rather than have an alarm in the house, they are safer with a gun. they have seen movies and tv shows where the home owner hears a noise, stirs, goes over to the locked gun cupboard unlocks it- goes to the separate ammunition storage unlocks it, arms and checks the weapon, and stealthily makes his way downstairs just in time to shoot( knock out the intruder with the butt of his gun depending on the target audience) and hence prevent the intruder from raping the pretty house guest, saving the day, and she marries him and they all live happily ever. They saw it on tv, therefore it must be true.

So the manufacturers of guns and the NRA promote the home safety angle- and self defense
(because -goodness me- someone could pull a gun on you at any time. but if you have your own gun well then after the other guy pulls a knife on you rather than shit yourself, you are the type of guy who in one smooth and assured move could reach down into your conveniently open jacket past your beer belly into the shoulder holster that you wear at all times and pull, remove the safety and aim at the baddie quicker than he can react and save him making off with the 70 bucks, the 100 dollar watch and two maxed out credit cards you have in your wallet. Not only that but you have the stones to live with the consequences of killing some poor b**tard who was at the end of his tether over 70 dollars and feel you did the right thing in taking his life and experience no depression or guilt.

Fortunately no one ever breaks into an unoccupied home and steals guns to use them in other crimes. Nor do children find and play with loaded guns left in dumb places by dumb people. Neither do drunk dumbasses pull out their self defence guns in a rage in a domestic dispute/ or disagreements over whether there was a realistic chance of a waking dead style zombie invasion  http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/li_man_shot_girlfriend_in_fight_iFYGRBVup4AJhCEOdD64EI)

"You cant take my slaves guns. It's my constitutional right to own as many slaves guns as I can afford. I take care of my slaves guns, I look after my slaves guns, nothing bad has ever happened to my slaves guns, or because of my slaves guns. If people have a problem with my slaves guns it is because they are un-American and un-patriotic. I will fight a civil war for my right to have slaves guns."

                          John Q Dumas 1861 2012
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 15, 2012, 01:03:07 AM
Brilliant post, heganboy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Niall Quinn on December 15, 2012, 01:54:38 AM
On the theme of statistics (certainly not intended in support of the NRA lobby), does the US gun control issue get undue international attention?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate):

2010 United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime - homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants

Worldwide - 6.9

US - 4.2
Canada - 1.6
Ireland - 1.2
Honduras - 91.6
Ivory Coast -56.9
Germany - 0.8

I don't mean to make light of today's horrific event in any way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on December 15, 2012, 02:07:26 AM
On the theme of statistics (certainly not intended in support of the NRA lobby), does the US gun control issue get undue international attention?
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate):

2010 United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime - homicide rate per year per 100,000 inhabitants

Worldwide - 6.9

US - 4.2
Canada - 1.6
Ireland - 1.2
Honduras - 91.6
Ivory Coast -56.9
Germany - 0.8

I don't mean to make light of today's horrific event in any way.

It's true that gun crime in the USA is at 20 year low. No reason to continue to make assault rifles available over the counter though.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 15, 2012, 02:11:31 AM
You would not believe the number of people who I had believed rational human beings whose response to this tragedy is to call for "conceal and carry" permits for teachers and principals...

Yep that's right, in their considered opinion, arming the teachers with concealed firearms would have prevented this...

Yep, I want to send my kids to a school with armed teachers, that sounds reasonable. I can't see anything wrong with the logic in that argument.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 15, 2012, 03:38:35 AM
That right to bear arms was back in the day when the wild west wasn't even discovered yet. How it still around 200yrs later when the west is wild no more, beats me. Its abit like a Orange man round here bleating on about his right to walks the queens highway cause he always done it. Way of life got to change with the times
I think it's the same thing. Ulster and America were both settled with extreme violence and it is not always easy for the modern society to lose  the history. The modern US has a problem with violence (although not generally for people who are comfortably off)

  http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/oct/11/prison-rape-obamas-program-stop-it/

I think a lot of suicides are because of the guns as well. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 15, 2012, 01:11:46 PM
It will never change. The NRA is too powerful and the issue so controversial that the Dems have given up on it. Sure even when Obama hasn't lifted a finger to do anything about guns, the right wing are frothing at the mouth about what they claim he WILL do, all to stir up the paranoid Neanderthals who form their base. Gun sales are through the roof because of what Obama is "going to do!"

You are so right, the only neandertals are republican voters! ::)

Didn't say that, but the right certainly has a preponderance of the knuckle-dragging element of US society. They're already coming out with the predictable "arm teachers" bullshit and calling Obama's tears fake and a cynical attempt to set the stage. We can discuss other issues if you like.

Gun sales are not through the roof, that is bullshit.

HB has already posted something about that.

I can dig up more if you like. Its been very widely covered in the media.

Obama is toothless when it comes to gun control, this will test his leadership and we will see if he has it in him to attack the NRA, somebody needs to have the stones to do so, I fear none will.

I am all for a family having a small calibre pistol or even a shotgun if they hunt, after that I am opposed to people having guns in any form, they are un-necessary and for people to have semi automatic and automatic weapons is madness and a recipe for disaster.

No argument with any of that!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on December 15, 2012, 02:12:40 PM
Excellent post Heganboy - borrowed
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:12:25 PM
Holy shit- the NRA are having a press conference saying that we need armed guards at our schools. By telling people that schools are gun free zones, that killers go there for maximum impact because they wont be stopped by armed people there.

I have never seen anything like this, they should have stayed out of it, this is the worst PR possible. Absolutely the worst press conference I have ever seen, worse than Gadaffi's guy saying the Americans are on the run...

Oh- and the media- their fault

and the video games industry their fault too- we (the NRA) found an online game called kindergarten killers, can you believe it- they are to blame...

We need more guns to make us safe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:15:08 PM
This press conference is unreal. This man is deluded and his fake concern is sickening.

Good to see another protester make it to the front of the stage
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:16:39 PM
holy shit

"the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good gun with a gun"

someone with a gun 1 minute away is better than someone on the 911 call 10 minutes away
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:23:03 PM
This keeps getting better.

"Every school needs an armed policeman before the kids go back to school in January"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 04:26:02 PM
The NRA "Eddie Eagle" gun safety video....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 21, 2012, 04:26:20 PM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 05:03:40 PM
holy shit

"the only way to stop a bad guy with a gun, is a good gun with a gun"

someone with a gun 1 minute away is better than someone on the 911 call 10 minutes away

The next step is to arm the kids because the teacher would obviously be just that bit further away. Family pets could carry remotely activated incendiary devices so Dad or Mom can blow up the bad guy from a meeting at work.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 05:32:53 PM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now

That is so stupid.- All they care about is protecting their cashflow and influence.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on December 21, 2012, 06:06:58 PM
The scary part in all of this for me anyway, is that through religion and politics, the NRA have successfully brainwashed so many people into believing that they are correct on all the above.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 21, 2012, 06:24:57 PM
Come to think of it, if all the teachers carried guns, indiscipline might become a thing of the past. There might be something in this.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 21, 2012, 06:27:24 PM
At least four people are reported dead after a shooter opened fire early Friday in Frankstown Township in Central Pennsylvania.

The Altoona Mirror reports that the gunman, whose name has not yet been released, was killed during the shooting. Blair County District Attorney Richard Consiglio confirms that additionally two other men and a woman are now dead.

According to the Tribune-Review, investigators believe the shooter may have opened fire on random people while riding in a vehicle. When he encountered law enforcement, a shootout began.

Two Pennsylvania State Troopers were injured during the shootout the Wheeling News-Register reports shortly after noon local time on Friday. A third officer was injured in a car crash during the ordeal.

http://rt.com/usa/news/four-dead-pennsylvania-injured-598/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2012, 06:52:51 PM
At least four people are reported dead after a shooter opened fire early Friday in Frankstown Township in Central Pennsylvania.

The Altoona Mirror reports that the gunman, whose name has not yet been released, was killed during the shooting. Blair County District Attorney Richard Consiglio confirms that additionally two other men and a woman are now dead.

According to the Tribune-Review, investigators believe the shooter may have opened fire on random people while riding in a vehicle. When he encountered law enforcement, a shootout began.

Two Pennsylvania State Troopers were injured during the shootout the Wheeling News-Register reports shortly after noon local time on Friday. A third officer was injured in a car crash during the ordeal.

http://rt.com/usa/news/four-dead-pennsylvania-injured-598/
Obviously if the local school principal had a drone operated out of Microsoft Word nobody would have died.
I wonder if the economic crisis is linked to all the recent killings. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on December 21, 2012, 09:11:23 PM
I think this maybe is the only topic that everybody on the board are in agreement with!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 22, 2012, 07:08:01 PM
Seen on twitter:

Q: How many NRA members does it take to screw in a lightbulb?













A: More guns!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 22, 2012, 09:27:58 PM
The NRA are a shower of useless hoors, who is going to pay for "armed Personnel" at every school?

Giving teachers guns sums up the NRA, they are like the tobacco companies of the 70's and 80's in that they promote a product that is detrimental to the health of many people and they only care about accumulating more wealth and spreading propaganda to a willing and naive citizenry.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 23, 2012, 08:56:54 AM
This is just my opinion, but I reckon that the culture of guns in the United States is not just down to historical stories of the likes of the expansion into the "Wild West", or the believed right in what is interpreted by the 2nd amendment of their constitution, but that it's also a question of vanity. It seems to me that there is tremendous pressure on many people to have the perfect image, the perfect lifestyle, the perfect partner, the perfect body, and most of all the need to be famous. Without them, you're not anything, there's no second prize. A nobody. And what ends up is that in terms of creating an image of yourself to get noticed and famous, one way to sure as heck do it is commit a notorious mass murder or massacre. And the more notorious the better. The massacre in CT, because it involved children of primary school age, takes the notorious meter up a notch or two from the levels seen at Virginia Tech or Columbine. It's dreading to think what might be next for someone unstable to think what might get them infamy - a nursery perhaps?

In the likes of Canada, Scandinavia or Switzerland, guns themselves still hold out as a notable symbol of a personal and social instrument - but in these countries they hold a view of such weapon that is a lot closer to most other Western countries and less to that of much of the USA, in that the likes of guns are treated as weapons of respect, the acknowledgement of their potential lethality, the acceptance that they should generally only be in the hands of those that are trained to properly use them and feel comfortable in handling them, and that there should be a reasonable reason to own one e.g. hunters in Scandinavia and Canada, the militia in Switzerland, armed forces and police across the world and so on. This doesn't mean that certain mass shootings doesn't happen in such places e.g. Dunblane, École Polytechnique, Jokela, Zug etc. but they happen to be far less numerous than what appears to happen in the USA. And when I mentioned about that vanity image in having a gun there, advertisements like the one below don't tend to dispel it.




As I see it, any attempt at gun controls in the USA, regardless of how remote that possibility seems, can only really work in parallel with a significant cultural change at the same time as to how guns are viewed in civil society.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 23, 2012, 10:42:53 AM
Very good post Fionn.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on December 24, 2012, 09:40:15 AM
"I call on congress to ensure there are armed police officers in every school in America when they return after the holidays"

"the NRA will as the pre-eminent trainer in the USA is standing by ready and willing to help with this effort"

the NRA will help with secure design of schools and design of the school shield program, and the former head of the DEA will run the program for the NRA

"if we cherish our kids more than our money, then we must give them the best protection possibly which is properly trained armed personnel in every school"

I am very f**king scared right now

That is so stupid.- All they care about is protecting their cashflow and influence.

I stumbled upon that NRA news briefing on the RTÉ news channel on friday afternoon and thought it was so surreal as to be unbelievable, but it was real.

I'm almost certain they suggested getting armed volunteers to patrol their local schools trained by the  NRA, my good god, unbelievable to anyone outside the states. Then it was suggested that the big bad federal government should pay for an armed police officer for each school,  why not tax the fúck out of gun purchases to compensate the parents affected by these murders?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2012, 06:18:56 PM
I see a couple of fire fighters have been shot while attending a fire early this morning, am sure the NRA response will be "If they had been armed".  I see orders for machine guns, bullets etc have went through he roof in the past two weeks. Americans, definitely a strange species.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on December 24, 2012, 06:23:02 PM
sorry my mistake, Brownell (bullet manufacturer) confirmed they have sold 3 and 1/2 yrs of magazines in 3 days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 29, 2012, 09:21:05 PM
Number of people killed by guns in US since Newtown Massacre: 303

Ooops, my mistake.  Guns don't kill people, bullets do.

Since I posted about half an hour ago, it's up to 306.

Now 321.  Wonder how high that'll be by New Year's Day.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: ziggysego on December 30, 2012, 11:26:03 AM
306!? That's crazy! Where'd you source this? The US truly is a sick nation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 30, 2012, 04:33:40 PM
Ziggy, I read it on Slate.  They've been posting updated tallies.  A fierce number, for sure.  The link is

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on December 31, 2012, 10:31:07 AM
Surely the fact that this guys mother had guns which didn't stop her son killing her voids any argument the pro-gun lobby have about guns being used to protect people. Didn't do her much good.

More importantly since when has the right to bear arms become more important than the right to life, especially the right to life for a child.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 02, 2013, 10:57:45 PM
Gun deaths in US since Newtown shooting is now apparently 393.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on January 03, 2013, 12:34:20 AM
Surely the fact that this guys mother had guns which didn't stop her son killing her voids any argument the pro-gun lobby have about guns being used to protect people. Didn't do her much good.

More importantly since when has the right to bear arms become more important than the right to life, especially the right to life for a child.

This isn't an argument. If it were there might be some hope.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 04, 2013, 09:11:43 PM
According to Slate, the gun death total in the US since the Newtown shooting is now apparently 427.  I am floored by this number, though I would like to know the circumstances of those deaths--suicides, home defenses, robberies, domestic disputes and so on.  Any way you look at it, though, that's an alarming number.  And with the fear that Obama might just enact more stringent gun control legislation, sales of high-powered weaponry is now soaring.  So, Happy New Year with this uplifting 1,000th post on my part.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on January 04, 2013, 11:23:24 PM
Here is an example of a friend of mine on FB - these are his typical posts on the subject - obviously he is NRA Pro Guns:
Quote
Remember it's the police we have to trust..... Just like New Orleans citizens trusted theirs when they took away law abiding citizens guns and then a few days later the police again forcibly raped, stole and took advantage of people that couldn't defend themselves!!

Quote
This is what happens when you take away guns from law abiding citizens. Doesn't solve the violent crime just makes it worse. Anyone that thinks that it will solve all our issues when it reality it makes them worse. Criminals will always break the law nothing will stop them. Just like making drugs illegal hasn't stopped people from using.

Quote
Just as an FYI also the gunman that killed all those people on Colorado a few months back did you know he went specifically to a theater that guns are not allowed. The theater owner by his right didn't want them in his theater which he has a right to do. The shooter had a theater that was right next to where he lived. That one allowed guns via concealed carry laws that Colorado has. The gunman didn't go there because it was a good change he wouldn't have gotten off one round. As for me if I was allowed to carry legally I would and you better believe if that shooter went into the theater next to his house that he wouldn't have killed so many. The issue isn't guns its what is making people so unhappy that they want to kill!! The issue is we have a rampant mental illness issue not be resolved with our citizens.

This is a normal lad I know from the parish.Good family man, God-fearing, down to earth do anything for you type of lad.

Theres no hope for the country I think.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on January 06, 2013, 09:37:02 AM
Four more shot dead in Aouroa. The same town as the cinema shootings.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on January 08, 2013, 01:31:11 PM
Hoping to “strike the fear of God in the gun-grabbing politicians on both sides of the aisle" and thus prove they're not about to just roll over and die (no pun intended) amidst all this silly fuss about those poor children at Sandy Hook being massacred because there wasn't enough firepower available at that  school which we all know would have stopped it all even though that's never worked before, a new coalition of gun advocates and conservatives have sensibly declared Jan. 19, right before Obama's inauguration, "Gun Appreciation Day," wherein supporters are called on to line up “around the block” at gun stores, gun counters, gun shows, and gun ranges to protest the inexcusable "post Sandy Hook assault on gun rights" by an Obama administration that "has shown that it is more than willing to trample the Constitution to impose its dictates upon the American people” by denying us our right to die a bloody, pointless death at the unregulated hands of unbalanced gun-owners, much like our right to die from lack of affordable health care, and besides, freedom and values and tyranny and. The same day, the NRA is hosting a tutorial for Nevada elected officials only on the wonders of semi-automatics. Same justifications. Sigh.



"If, as this president claims, the American people are at risk from murderous rampagers, the logical solution is to arm, not present a docile target.” - the enlightened folks organizing this event.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 10, 2013, 05:55:37 PM
728 people now dead from guns since Sandy Hook (as of 11/8/2013).  Should hit the 1000 mark pretty soon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on January 11, 2013, 08:28:29 AM
Another school attack in California yesterday, luckily only one student was shot and is in a critical condition. A teacher is said to have talked the gunman out of it..

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/11/uk-usa-shooting-california-idUKBRE90910T20130111 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/01/11/uk-usa-shooting-california-idUKBRE90910T20130111)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:31:07 AM
http://www.progressive.org/banning-semi-automatic-weapons-not-enough

America, the Violent: Banning Semi-Automatic Weapons Is Not Enough
 
By Matthew Rothschild, January 11, 2013

I’m all for Pres. Obama’s and Gov. Cuomo’s efforts to ban semi-automatic rifles and high-capacity magazines, but we shouldn’t kid ourselves that this is going to make much of a dent in the gruesome gun death toll in America.
Every year, about 31,000 people in the United States die from gun violence.
 
When you examine that shocking figure, a few surprising facts pop up.
 
First, almost two-thirds of those killed by guns are people who commit suicide. About 19,000 in total.

Then, of the 11,000 homicides, the vast majority of these are with handguns, not semi-automatic rifles.

And of the 600 fatal accidents with guns, semi-automatic rifles are not responsible for many of those, either.

As a result, much of the effort, following the horror at Sandy Hook and Aurora, won’t really get at the underlying problems of gun violence in America.
 
One of those problems is the illegal drug trade. If we legalized drugs, the gun violence in our cities would go way down.
 
Another problem is the lack of awareness of the warning signs about suicide. As the saying goes, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and the Surgeon General and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention should do a public education campaign to make us all more attuned to those warning signs.
 
And finally there’s the violence-soaked culture we live in—and I’m not taking the easy way out by blaming Hollywood or video games.
 
No, I’m talking about our blood-soaked history: the extermination of Native Americans, the imposing of slavery on African Americans, and the running of an empire that lives war to war and inures us to violence.
 
Starting with the war against the Philippines in 1898, when Pres. McKinley vowed to Christianize the Filipino people and killed 500,000 civilians in the process, the U.S. empire has stacked the corpses high. The multiple U.S. invasions of Latin America and the Caribbean, and the U.S. support for dictators there, cost hundreds of thousands of lives over the last century. The atomic bombing of Japan was a muscle-flex of empire, most recently demonstrated by Oliver Stone in his epic “Untold History of the United States.” During the Vietnam war, the United States killed between two and three million people in IndoChina. U.S. support for the dictatorship in Indonesia in the 1960s and 1970s cost close to a million lives. George W. Bush’s war on Iraq also killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. And Barack Obama’s escalation of the war in Afghanistan—and his all-out use of drones—has caused many innocent people to die, even as he bemoans gun violence.
 
Knowing somewhere deep down of the atrocities we are responsible for has corroded our collective conscience and helped make violence the American pastime. So yes, by all means, let’s ban semi-automatic weapons and high-capacity ammunition.
 
But let’s get to the bottom of America the violent, while we’re at it.
 
(Matthew Rothschild is the editor of The Progressive magazine. He is indebted to Kevin Alexander Gray for helping him think through this issue.)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: ballinaman on January 16, 2013, 10:32:57 PM
Piers Morgan and some absolute pro gun notjob.....jaw dropping stuff all the way through the interview...crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQPZ-taYBs
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on January 17, 2013, 11:21:05 PM
Wow, Ballnaman, I'm no Piers Morgan fan, but I admire his poise, equanimity and unwillingness to chase that jerk down every one of his rabbit holes.

It's a month since Sandy Hook, and 1,046 people have suffered gun deaths in the US.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyrone exile on January 18, 2013, 12:45:29 AM
I only thought the nolan show was bad last night, can you imagine if the american flag was took down from a city hall?
Its the same problem as here, People who are either not educated or very poorly educated are targeted with issues to stir up support for organisations, In America there told that there trying to take away the second amendment, just so the NRA can remain so wealthy and powerful. Here Unionists have used the flags issue to try to regain a seat which they were probably going to win back anyway. Its all fairly depressing that people can be pulled in by such sound bites!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on January 18, 2013, 03:33:48 PM
I couldnt believe the rants of that guy on the Piers Morgan show, thanks for posting. Piers was definitely shitting himself, that was one angry raving lunatic.
All bought up in the conspiracy theories and completely anti government. Couldn't believe his threats for the Republic to rise up if they tried to take their guns.... crazy stuff
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2013, 04:35:54 PM
Piers Morgan and some absolute pro gun notjob.....jaw dropping stuff all the way through the interview...crazy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQPZ-taYBs

Holy Moly! Crazy people on TV to explain why the crazy people have guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on January 18, 2013, 05:05:49 PM
Whoooo-hoooo!
http://www.tubechop.com/watch/854183 (http://www.tubechop.com/watch/854183)

The prophet in the window (and the neighbours' dog)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIP1wTLwuQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HIP1wTLwuQ)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on February 03, 2013, 01:06:37 PM
Whats the oul saying about swings and roundabouts...........


 former US Navy SEAL who wrote a best-selling book about his experiences as a sniper has been fatally shot along with another man on a Texas gun range.

‘American Sniper’ author Chris Kyle, 38, and a second man were found dead at Rough Creek Lodge's shooting range in Glen Rose, Erath County Sheriff Tommy Bryant said.

Witnesses said a gunman opened fire on the men, then fled in a pickup truck belonging to one of the victims, according to the Star-Telegram.

The newspapers said a 25-year-old man was later taken into custody in Lancaster, southeast of Dallas, and that charges were expected.

Glen Rose is about 80 miles (128 kilometers) southwest of Dallas.

Mr Kyle wrote the best-selling book, ‘American Sniper: The Autobiography of the Most Lethal Sniper in U.S. Military History,’ detailing his 150-plus kills of insurgents from 1999 to 2009.

Investigators did not immediately release the name of the second victim.

Mr Kyle was sued by former Minnesota Governer and ex-professional wrestler Jesse Ventura over a portion of the book that claims Kyle punched Ventura in a 2006 bar fight over unpatriotic remarks.

Mr Ventura says the punch never happened and that the claim by Kyle defamed him.

Mr Kyle had asked that Ventura's claims of invasion of privacy and "unjust enrichment" be dismissed, saying there was no legal basis for them.

However, a federal judge said the lawsuit should proceed. Both sides were told to be ready for trial by 1 August.

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Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on February 03, 2013, 01:15:53 PM
Efforts to free a five-year-old boy from a gu n ma n in an un d ergro u n d bu n ke r in rur al

A 'm e a n ma n'

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Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 02:41:18 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply “disappear” Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 02:55:39 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply “disappear” Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!

You have of course information demonstrating that President Obama has carried out secret executions of US citizens without a trial or even charges?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 03:27:13 PM
The looney left, in full flight, Obama has a case to answer on this one!!!!

Dont get me started on that cnut Pelosi, I absolutely hate that bitch as much as I did Thatcher back in the day!Pelosi Backs Obama on Secret Execution of Americans Without Trial

House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply “disappear” Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly.


I hope Pelosi disappears the hoor!!!

You have of course information demonstrating that President Obama has carried out secret executions of US citizens without a trial or even charges?

Eh the killings have not started yet, the disappearing of citizens has not begun as of yet, but the looney left will endorse this and the republicans will be happy to provide the training and weapons to make it happen! feck the lot of them!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:31:07 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:39:31 PM
I found it Stew. It's from a website called the 'New American', here's the full article.

Quote
House Democrat leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi of California is under fire from across the political spectrum after admitting in an interview, among a host of other controversial positions, that she was not opposed to President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges. She also claimed that, depending on the timing and situation, it was acceptable for the executive branch to simply “disappear” Americans and keep it secret — a wildly unconstitutional notion that even most Third World dictators would never dare support publicly. 

The Obama administration, of course, admits to believing it has the power to legitimately murder anyone, anywhere, anytime — no charges, trial, jury, or due process are needed. Americans have known about the murderous program for years, but more facts about it were exposed recently when an apparently leaked memo from the Justice Department “justifying” the murders hit the headlines earlier this month. The incredible document purporting to legalize extrajudicial assassinations shocked even the president’s most slavish supporters.

Speaking to the extremely Democrat-friendly Huffington Post, however, the former Speaker of the House said she was not even sure whether the Obama administration should tell the public when it lawlessly executes an American. "Maybe,” she told the liberal media outlet after being asked if the government ought to acknowledge murdering U.S. citizens with a drone strike after the deed is done. “It just depends." What it “depends” on was not immediately clear.

Rep. Pelosi, who infamously said the deeply unpopular ObamaCare would have to be passed so the American people could find out what was in it, cited public opinion as one reason that lawmakers have allowed the president to unconstitutionally become judge, jury, and executioner without much protest. "It's interesting how popular it is in the public," she claimed about Obama’s extrajudicial assassination program.

The administration’s lawless policy, as The New American’s Joe Wolverton has documented extensively, has already claimed the lives of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of innocent civilians in Pakistan, Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia, and other nations. Even an American teenager, 16-year-old Abdulrahman al-Awlaki, was assassinated by a drone strike under the administration’s program without ever being so much as charged with a crime.

Pelosi, though, despite her oath of office, apparently relies on public opinion rather than the Constitution she swore to uphold — at least if it is to support Obama and his radical agenda. "People just want to be protected,” she told the Huffington Post. “And I saw that when we were fighting them on surveillance, the domestic surveillance. People just want to be protected: 'You go out there and do it. I'll criticize you, but I want to be protected.'"

When former President George W. Bush was in office, Democrats rightfully condemned his lawless activities — spying on Americans without a warrant, torturing suspects, and even murdering people with drones. Under Obama, however, despite the fact that his administration has gone far beyond what even the Bush administration was doing, serious Democrat criticism of the rogue and unlawful executive-branch activities has all but ceased to exist.

The former House speaker, however, denied that she or her party were hypocritical. "Those opposed are pretty critical, and other people are just listening to see what this is and why this is necessary, because we're in a different world," Pelosi claimed, disputing the idea that Democrats are less critical of the mass-murder program than they would have been if a Republican were in the White House.

Apparently, then, the establishment wing of both parties agrees: Despite the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, the president now has the power to secretly murder or indefinitely detain anyone, including Americans, anywhere in the world at any time. They also seem to agree that no justification is necessary and that the public does not even have to be informed.

In terms of Obama secretly “disappearing” Americans, Rep. Pelosi, while apparently appearing “conflicted,” confirmed that she thought it was essentially alright. "It depends on the situation," she said. "Maybe it depends on the timing, because that's right — it's all about timing, imminence. What is it that could be in jeopardy if people know that happened at this time? I just don't know."   

The Huffington Post went on to cite a variety of polls claiming that a slim majority of Americans support the extrajudicial assassination of people “suspected” of being high-level members of al-Qaeda — an organization originally created, armed, and funded by the U.S. government that, in Libya and Syria at least, continues to receive support from the Obama administration. If the “suspect” is American, supposed public support for murder without charge or trial drops to about 43 percent, the survey showed.

Despite the polls, however, prominent anti-war Democrats are still speaking out. "Polls, schmolls,” said former Democrat Rep. Dennis Kucinich, who worked with ex-GOP Congressman Ron Paul in an effort to rein in the administration’s unlawful assassination schemes. “What if you asked the public, does the government have the right to summarily execute you if they think you have committed a crime? You take that poll and you see what kind of answer you get. The questions that are being asked are being asked to try to justify the policy."

Like former Rep. Paul, Kucinich recognized the fact that Obama’s murder program was wildly unconstitutional and a complete abuse of power. "It's morally abhorrent, it's objectionable and I don't care if it's politically popular or not," Kucinich was quoted as saying by the Post. "You can find a lot of things in the past that were politically popular that after further consideration the public decided [were] morally repugnant."

Outside the polls cited by the Huffington Post, which indeed seemed aimed at eliciting the impression of public support for Obama’s mass-murder program, other recent surveys have come up with starkly different findings. A recent poll by Rasmussen, for instance, found that barely 20 percent of Americans thought the president should have sole authority to order an execution. Only slightly over a third of the public, meanwhile, favored the use of drone strikes to murder U.S. citizens abroad — not that public opinion should matter when it comes to upholding the Constitution that Obama and every member of Congress took an oath to uphold.   

Establishment Republicans like Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), often blasted as a Republican in Name Only (RINO), and establishment Democrats such as Rep. Pelosi have spoken out to support the lawless reign of terror waged by Obama. However, there is also significant and growing opposition to the mass-murder program among prominent Democrats and major segments of the GOP. Even among Obama supporters, criticism of the lawlessness is growing; but among constitutionalists, the outrage is becoming increasingly fierce.

“Anytime the government willfully executes a citizen, regardless of the circumstances, it is a very serious issue,” Sen. Mike Lee (R-Utah) told the Washington Examiner. “As the body that oversees executive branch actions, at the very least, Congress should have a full accounting — even if it must sometimes be in a classified setting — of the specific considerations that went into the decision.”

According to Sen. Lee, in stark contrast to sentiments expressed by Pelosi and Obama, government should always err on the side of greater transparency. “Where there are limited and serious national security concerns about releasing certain details, the appropriate committees in Congress should have the opportunity to perform oversight,” he added, noting that in some instances where the administration released its “legal analysis,” the justifications have been “wrong.” 

“If you’re going to regard somebody as presenting an imminent threat of an attack on the U.S. simply because you have concluded that they are an ‘operational leader’ or they are involved in planning an attack in one way or another, you find yourself giving way to much discretion to the government,” Lee told the Examiner after the Justice Department memo purporting to justify extrajudicial assassinations was made public.

On the other side of the aisle, Sen. Ron Wyden (D-Ore.) also slammed the murderous program and the secrecy behind it. “Every American has the right to know when their government believes it’s allowed to kill them,” Wyden told the rabidly pro-Obama MSNBC during a recent interview. “I don’t think that, as one person said, that is too much to ask. And this idea that security and liberty are mutually exclusive, that you can only have one or the other, is something I reject.”

The Democrat Senator, like other members of Congress, plans to take action, too, even if it is tepid. “So we’re now going to have to begin the heavy lifting of the congressional oversight process by examining the legal underpinnings of this program and to make very clear I am going to push for more declassification of these key kinds of programs,” he continued. “And I think we can do that consistent with national security.”

Critics in the antiwar movement also attacked the controversial assassination program and especially the remarks made by the top House Democrat. “Pelosi is erring on the side of deference,” observed analyst John Glaser with the popular, liberty-minded AntiWar.com blog. “If Obama declares he will strip Americans of the Constitutional rights and that it needs to be secret because divulging such information could ‘harm national security,’ she grants him that prerogative because she is not an independent voice in the branch of government meant to serve as a check on the President’s power. Instead, she is an apparatchik; she’s a Party mouthpiece faced with the task of capitulating to the Party leadership.”

While Obama publicly claims to be fighting “al-Qaeda and associated forces” as part of a terror war, in Libya and Syria, the administration was caught providing arms, training, and support to self-described leaders of the terrorist organization. In reality — as documents from the Department of Homeland Security, the Justice Department, “fusion centers,” and even military think tanks make clear — the U.S. government considers veterans, pro-life activists, constitutionalists, gun owners, and other regular Americans to be the primary “terror” threat facing the “Homeland.”

If Congress and the American people allow the president to continue secretly assassinating and “disappearing” Americans at will without even charging them with a crime, lawmakers and analysts say it is only a matter of time before those usurped unconstitutional powers are turned on the citizenry. Opposition exists: More than a few critics have called for Obama to be impeached or even prosecuted for war crimes and treason. With support from Democrat leadership and much of the GOP establishment, however, it appears that Obama will be allowed to run roughshod over the Constitution and the unalienable rights of Americans — at least for the foreseeable future.     

Interesting also that the context of the discussion was about the drones that are being used in the 'War on Terror' as politics, Hollywood Style, has dubbed the mess in the Middle East. Also interesting that the subject of American Citizens is in the context of American Citizens being caught up in drone strikes across the world. It's not exactly taking someone out in Midtown Manhattan.

The drone strikes are shocking, and another symptom of failed American policy, but to present Pelosi's comments as anything other than a discussion about the problem in Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere is hugely disingenuous.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 03:45:42 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?

AZ that is the direct quote.

I got it from a friend who sent it to me via email, the source was said to be a democrat insider who has said they have "grave concerns about the direction the administration is heading"

I will try and find out more!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 03:46:55 PM
See above Stew, I found it online. I think the New American is putting 2+2 together, and insinuating something that wasn't said at all.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 03:48:52 PM
Stew, it's called spin! It's called one thing being said, or even alluded to - and it gets completely spun out of the context it was actually said in. The American media (all sides) are masters at this. Water down the koolaid they try and feed us and treat that kind of nonsense with the bushel of salt it deserves.

The direct quote itself is poorly written. It suggests (I'd say it states) that President Obama is already directly responsible for the secret executions of US citizens.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:00:35 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 04:04:08 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

Who was the last prez who couldnt be done for war crimes?

Some of these fcukers are ridiculous, Obama is fast becoming the worst of the lot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on February 22, 2013, 04:16:14 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

I made that post on the back of Stew's comment that the killings hadn't started yet. Then I looked at the full story and saw what the context actually was. I think that proves my very point about the ambiguity of the New American 'story'.

As for the 'War on Terror', as I've said, that looks like a Hollywood approach to the mess in the middle east. It's not a war on terror, it's the USA lashing out like a frightened child at figures lurking in the shadows.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 04:28:11 PM
Stew, it's called spin! It's called one thing being said, or even alluded to - and it gets completely spun out of the context it was actually said in. The American media (all sides) are masters at this. Water down the koolaid they try and feed us and treat that kind of nonsense with the bushel of salt it deserves.

The direct quote itself is poorly written. It suggests (I'd say it states) that President Obama is already directly responsible for the secret executions of US citizens.

Puck, that is lazy and inaccurate, this is being condemned on both sides of the house/senate and Pelosi said what she said, that is not spin, that is fact!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on February 22, 2013, 04:48:59 PM
The way it is phrased makes it looks like it's already happened. How can it be 'President Obama’s secret executions of U.S. citizens without a trial or even charges' if he has never done any such thing? Especially when you add that he has a case to answer on this one.

It would have been far more accurate, and less intentionally ambiguous if the report had said she WOULD NOT be opposed to ANY PRESIDENT having a policy of secret executions of US Citizens.

Even then, I'd like to see the direct quote.

What's the source for this extract stew?
Anwar al Awlaki was an American citizen who was murdered by drone in the "war" on "terror" (which looks more like keynesian military spending)
.     

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Aulaqi

What is the point of the "war" ?

I made that post on the back of Stew's comment that the killings hadn't started yet. Then I looked at the full story and saw what the context actually was. I think that proves my very point about the ambiguity of the New American 'story'.

As for the 'War on Terror', as I've said, that looks like a Hollywood approach to the mess in the middle east. It's not a war on terror, it's the USA lashing out like a frightened child at figures lurking in the shadows.
Why does the US spend so much on Afghanistan though ? The number of soldiers with PTSD is rocketing. Something like 1500 have had serious genital injuries. I just don't see the point of what they are doing in Afghanistan unless it has something to do with spending taxpayers' money to satisfy some lobby.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on February 22, 2013, 05:23:24 PM
The US was built on a tradition of killing people who weren't "as civilised as we are"  - e.g Native Americans.
Now they are keeping on that tradition with the latest "savages" being Ayrabs/Muslims and Afghanistan is the latest frontier.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 22, 2013, 06:41:47 PM
Maybe you're missing my point - but I am not being lazy or innaccurate in what I am trying to say. We have a source - at present from your friends email, or the new American Journal. If we want to talk about lazy journalism, particularly that which is sensationalized - lets read the article from the NAJ that AZ posted again.

You're telling me there's no spin? You're standing behind a poorly worded quote which is trying to state that President Obama has already secretly executed US citizens?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on February 22, 2013, 06:45:30 PM
Maybe you're missing my point - but I am not being lazy or innaccurate in what I am trying to say. We have a source - at present from your friends email, or the new American Journal. If we want to talk about lazy journalism, particularly that which is sensationalized - lets read the article from the NAJ that AZ posted again.

You're telling me there's no spin? You're standing behind a poorly worded quote which is trying to state that President Obama has already secretly executed US citizens?

It might explain the disappearance of Tyrone's Own.  :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on February 22, 2013, 10:58:02 PM
What about Pelosi's spin, where is the condemnation of her comments, ah fcuk it, just blame the republicans!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on February 23, 2013, 03:23:49 PM
On the contrary, I'm not blaming anybody!

Pelosi is a moron, and her comments need clarifying. If she's really suggesting that it's ok to secretly execute us citizens on a case by case basis, that's fucked up. Other than that it's a non story, in my view.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on March 28, 2013, 05:07:05 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 28, 2013, 05:52:50 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting

 
I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!

I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 28, 2013, 10:05:48 PM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting

 
I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!
I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!

So you are going to go out of your way to jepordize your friends livelihood because of a spat over gun control which you instigated ? That's a sc**bag thing to do. Not surprised though..you have form in this area.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 12:12:59 AM
Well, a hundred days have elapsed since Sandy Hook and, as expected, a fog of indifference has settled over the country.  Since then, over 3,000 people have suffered gun deaths in the US, and now we have long since passed any chance of outlawing high-powered army-style weaponry (BTW, in Sandy Hook, the shooter got off 155 bullets in less than five minutes); in fact, even implementing background checks is encountering strong opposition.

Since I came to this country, 1979, there have been about 300 victims of school shootings alone.

So dispiriting

 
I have lost 9 facebook friends over the whole gun control thing since sandy hook.

I find myself in need of a good mechanic after a mate of 17 years effed me off because I told him that neither he, nor anyone else needed assault rifles and that guns do, in fact kill people. I thought fair enough, no longer facebook friends, no big deal so I brought the yoke down for a servicing and he refused to take care of the care and told me I was no longer welcome at his garage.

I was floored, i told him to grow up and call me when he buys some perspective and went across the road and got taken care of, now here's the thing, in 01 I got him a huge contract with the Company I was working for servicing their 40 odd trucks in the area, up until May of 2013 he has done every scrap of work for the company, in June he will find that he is going to have to seriously look for new customers because his biggest one is not renewing with him!
I will never understand these NRA arseholes, they are great at putting their shit on facebook etc and act like they are John f**king Wayne but when someone offers a contrary opinion they go apeshit!

So you are going to go out of your way to jepordize your friends livelihood because of a spat over gun control which you instigated ? That's a sc**bag thing to do. Not surprised though..you have form in this area.


As a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike!  :-*
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on March 29, 2013, 11:21:01 AM
He wouldnt service my car he get the same thing, he mustnt need the business, so loosing a contract will lighten his workload.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 11:24:25 AM
Should have been pistols at dawn!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Mike Sheehy on March 29, 2013, 03:34:38 PM
Quote
As a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike! 


You have a gun in your house, you are obviously a bit of a republican nutjob and yet you want to lecture other people on gun control ? I'm with the mechanic on this one !
As for not fixing your car ?  who among us would not eventually crack if continually asked to fix cheap bangers plastered with Armagh stickers and smelling of buckfast.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 03:45:20 PM
Quote
As a matter of fact micky I had nothing to do with it, the company has sold off 20% of it's assets and they are downsizing drastically, they sold off the whole of Illinois and several other States, it's Wisconsin's turn next and he is simply one of many small time businessmen impacted by the decision, I hate that it is happening to him but it is what it is.

I instigated nothing mike, you might need to learn what that word means, you are ignorant of the facts (as usual) and in this instance you are the one acting the sc**bag mick, not me! I offered a differing opinion to a friend about a subject that I am passionate about, you see Mike, I hate, absolutely hate to see people die at the hands of guns, I have lived with that shite all my born days and if you cannot tell a friend he is wrong then who can you tell mick?

Hope this helps Mike! 


You have a gun in your house, you are obviously a bit of a republican nutjob and yet you want to lecture other people on gun control ? I'm with the mechanic on this one !
As for not fixing your car ?  who among us would not eventually crack if continually asked to fix cheap bangers plastered with Armagh stickers and smelling of buckfast.


So let me get this straight, I have a small handgun and that makes me a 'republican right wing nutjob'

I dont lecture anyone on anything Mike, I offered my opinion to a friend, you cant tell the difference between a .22 and a semi automatic so you best keep quiet and take another hit of whatever helps you get through the day.

Mike, that last line just about sums you up, a sad, ignorant wee man who is wrong on all fronts.

Have it in you Mike to say fair enough when it is obvious that, as usual, you are wrong, it's called humility, look it up brother! :)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 29, 2013, 07:10:50 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on March 29, 2013, 08:43:15 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: hardstation on March 29, 2013, 09:23:15 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

 ;D Fcukin hell!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on March 29, 2013, 09:47:58 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?
Not if you keep it under the floorboards.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on March 30, 2013, 03:13:12 PM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on March 30, 2013, 04:46:25 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on March 30, 2013, 05:03:16 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.

What about big Arnie??
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on April 17, 2013, 10:08:23 PM
And, of course, even the diluted measures proposing background checks for gun buyers at gun shows and on the internet have been filibustered to death in the Senate. Shameful.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 18, 2013, 12:27:51 AM
The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:20:39 AM
The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.

The republicans are moral cowards, bought and paid for by an insidious collective of neanderthals, they make me sick to my stomach and the blood of future gun victims will be on their hands.

No time for Obama, this issue was not part of his re-election campaign however he was willing to adopt it, tried to work with this shower of cowards, compromised to try and get them over the line and instead they take it up the arse from their NRA masters!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 03:22:55 AM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 03:44:26 AM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 18, 2013, 04:19:09 AM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children

Twas needed but you are wrong on the latter Count, the politicians, in particular the republican politicians sold out their constituents that wanted this law to go through, they sold their souls in fear and wallow in money for their next term.

Obama did all he could up until this point, I am sure they will pay for their sins which, on this issue, are going to come back to haunt them!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Count 10 on April 18, 2013, 10:39:12 AM
Do you have to renew your gun licence every year?

Google it newbie!

Thanks for the insight "Hero".
Seems any d**khead can get a gun 8)

I owe you an apology Count 10, there was supposed to be a wink after my post, sorry.  :-[

No apology needed.....sad day for USA when they care more about guns than their children

Twas needed but you are wrong on the latter Count, the politicians, in particular the republican politicians sold out their constituents that wanted this law to go through, they sold their souls in fear and wallow in money for their next term.

Obama did all he could up until this point, I am sure they will pay for their sins which, on this issue, are going to come back to haunt them!

Well they have the chance to vote them out at the next election, but politics as they are I wouldn't hold my breath. Never wanted a gun anywhere near me when I lived in the states.....but unfortunately was on the receiving end of one.
Life must go on.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 18, 2013, 03:29:36 PM
Note:
I'd like to point out the the **s added below are not mine- apparently the forum has decided my words may offend you...



The Republicans are filth. All but four wouldn't even vote for background checks for guns shows and advertised sales FFS. I suppose it goes with all the rest of their abhorrent views.


the problem here although it may look like it is a Republican vs Democrat issues, is really a selfish f**ker vs selfish f**ker issue.

Politicians are elected and we are the d**kheads that vote for these selfish f**kers who are willingly putting their own chances of re-election over the possibility of keeping some people out of harm's way.

If people either don't vote, or continue with existing voting patterns, then this will continue to be the case, and the only people to blame will be those people who have the right to vote.

apparently we are to believe that 90% of american people agree with background checks. Thats a lot of people, apparently the 10% successfully fundraised and lobbied to ensure that the senate couldn't pass the motion. And when I say fundraised and lobbied, I mean that they used money and bullying to tell those selfish f**kers who just managed to win their last election in a tight race that they would make it hard for them to win again. And then a bunch of scared selfish f**kers did what they were told instead of acting n the best interests of the people they are supposed to represent.

And as for the other selfish f**kers, they are the ones who make a lot of money from the sale of guns. And somewhat unbelievably they have managed to convince (the dumb gullible) 10% of the american population, about 40 million people that it is in their interest to have anyone with a mental illness or who has been convicted of a violent crime to have unrestricted access to guns. And I don't mean just a pistol/ handgun, this includes semi automatic weapons and sniper rifles. Because, you know, to restrict that access would be un-American.

Never mind how easy it is for government to stop you flying, or preventing you voting- thats all fine, because you may be dangerous if you do that,  but own a sub machine gun- that's your (selective) constitutional right.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 01:06:25 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 01:24:25 PM
A true hero doesn't need a gun.

What about big Arnie??
Big Arnie left California with a 27bn $ deficit.
It was Jerry Brown who terminated it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on April 19, 2013, 04:37:29 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Please note this is a Liberal media station Fox, looking forward to the condemnation from the usual suspects.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on April 19, 2013, 05:00:47 PM
It seems that the NRA used to be fairly middle of the road until Wayne la Pierre took over. He wouldn't be out of place in the UVF apparently. Not really much of a moderate.  Now everyone is afraid of the organisation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on April 19, 2013, 05:27:53 PM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"


Please note this is a Liberal media station Fox, looking forward to the condemnation from the usual suspects.

CNBC is not liberal. MSNBC  is.

CNBC is a Wall St business channel. One of their guys inspired the rise of the tea party FFS on a rant about bailouts for struggling home owners.

You've made this claim before.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on April 19, 2013, 06:16:01 PM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on May 04, 2013, 05:24:34 AM
Yep, a 5 year-old shot and killed his 2 year-old sister in Kentucky.

And now over 3,800 have died from guns since Sandy Hook, and we can't even get background checks despite the fact that 90% of the country favour them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on May 04, 2013, 05:37:47 AM
CNBC national tv just told people the people of Boston
"if you have a handgun get it ready and stand by the door, be better than a baseball bat"

What sickens me is the fact the Republicans will be loving this comment and comments like it from the left wing media!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on May 04, 2013, 05:43:25 AM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)

Hegan, CNBC is an enigma, liberal on some matters and to some people, republican to others and on some matters.

A five year old kills a two year old in f**king Kentucky of all places but hey, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Charlton Heston, deceased or not you were a f**king idiot!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 04, 2013, 01:21:00 PM
Yep, a 5 year-old shot and killed his 2 year-old sister in Kentucky.

And now over 3,800 have died from guns since Sandy Hook, and we can't even get background checks despite the fact that 90% of the country favour them.

Thank the process of gerrymandering. If you though the likes of the city of Derry was bad back in the day when the Unionists marked out their constituencies, you should check out maps for US congressional districts! All those deranged Republican congressman have safe seats through 2020, at least, no matter how debased their policies. The Democrats received 1.5 million votes more than the Republicans for House seats 2012, yet ended up losing the House by a substantial margin. Those Democratic voters who stayed home in 2010, allowing a significantly reduced electorate to sweep the Tea Party lunatics to power, have a lot to answer for and no right to complain.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on May 04, 2013, 01:23:28 PM
CNBC is wall street's go to business channel. And as such would definitely have a right wing bias, especially on tax government regulation i was surprised to hear them get into that today. And not only that-" in light of this dangerous foreign criminal forcing unarmed US citizens to be locked in their homes today, surely this is the context in which we should frame the gun and immigration debates this week"

also  a congressman called to have ball bearing purchases tracked  and registered (but not guns or pressure cookers)

Hegan, CNBC is an enigma, liberal on some matters and to some people, republican to others and on some matters.

A five year old kills a two year old in f**king Kentucky of all places but hey, guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Charlton Heston, deceased or not you were a f**king idiot!

Stew, CNBC is all business. Not sure who'd go to it for other reasons, other than to take an odd look at Maria Bartiromo!  :D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: All of a Sludden on May 12, 2013, 10:06:20 PM
Local tv in U.S. City of New Orleans reports at least a dozen people injured in a shooting during local neighbourhood Mother's Day parade.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on May 13, 2013, 04:03:20 AM
from CNN

Quote
Abdul Aziz believes he was standing right next to a shooter Sunday when gunmen opened fire at a Mother's Day parade in New Orleans, injuring 19 people.
"Everyone around me, except me, was shot," he said. "I was pretty fortunate to get away."
Aziz, 33, a photojournalist, was at the second-line parade when gunfire broke out at the corner of Frenchman Street and North Villere Street.
Second-line parades, which involve dancing and brass bands, are a New Orleans tradition. They happen most every Sunday, except during the hottest months in summer, according to Aziz.
"We turned off of a main thoroughfare to a smaller residential street, and that's when the shots rang out. I was standing, I believe, right next to the shooter. I saw muzzle flash, but unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see who the shooter was," he said.
People panicked and ran.
Aziz, who has worked in the Middle East, started taking pictures.
He sent those images to CNN iReport.
"It's a little jarring when you see these types of things on the home front," he said.
"I'm sad. I love this city. We're plagued by crime, and it's just not getting better no matter what we do."
According to police, 19 people were injured in the shooting, including two children. Ten men and seven women were among the victims.
The children suffered graze wounds. Other injuries ranged from minor to severe.
Shots were fired from different guns, and officers saw three suspects running from the scene, police said.
One of the suspects was described as an African-American male, approximately 18 to 22 years old, wearing a white T-shirt and blue jean shorts.
No one is in custody.
"This is an extremely unusual occurrence, and we're confident that we will make swift arrests," said Remi Braden, a police spokeswoman.
Police Superintendent Ronal Serpas told CNN affiliate WVUE that it appears "two or three people just, for a reason unknown to us, started shooting at, towards, or in the crowd."
He asked anyone with information to call authorities.
New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu echoed that request, challenging the community to get involved.
"It's important for us, as I have said, to change the culture of death on the streets of New Orleans to a culture of life, and it's going to take an all-hands-on-deck approach," he said.
"These kinds of incidents are not going to go unanswered. We're going to be very, very aggressive. There were hundreds of people out there today, so somebody knows who did this."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on May 14, 2013, 07:37:01 AM



A National Receipt from the 45 senators who blocked gun control, and who received $8,165,490 from the NRA and other gun-toting advocates
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on June 13, 2013, 11:56:03 PM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously oppose attempts to register gun buyers?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on June 14, 2013, 12:13:45 AM
Quote
How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously attempts to register gun buyers?

You have to realise that phones are dangerous
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1134838/Man-killed-mobile-phone-explodes-severing-artery-neck.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on June 14, 2013, 01:45:18 AM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously attempts to register gun buyers?

So well put, and just tonight Obama decides to "arm the rebels" in Syria based on findings that "100 to 150 people have died from detected chemical weapons attacks"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/13/syria-chemical-weapons-us-confirm
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on June 14, 2013, 02:33:14 PM
Six months since Sandy Hook.  5,045 shot dead since then.  How can the same people who applaud the governmen't scrutiny of telephone and internet use in the interest of security resist so strenuously oppose attempts to register gun buyers?

I dont think they do? The folks raging about data collection and the gun nuts are all one and the same in my world at a glance. They're all raging anti-Obamists too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on June 14, 2013, 06:30:17 PM
Yes, Puck, there is a whole group who oppose government intervention of any kind, any time, but there is also a broad swath of the population who seem to have no qualms about PRISM and telephone durveillance because of a perceived greater security/safety benefit. And while it may be true that some of that group are liberal (e.g. Al Franken), many are not.  My point is that how can the same conservative group so adamantly support the government's ability to perform, among other things, background checks in the interests of safety but at the same time resist with such conviction background checks on would-be gun owners when those checks are motivated also by a concern for safety, especially since over 5,000 people have died as a result of guns since Sandy Hook.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on July 08, 2013, 07:43:43 PM
Chicago reached its 200th homicide of the year on Saturday.  Over the July 4th holiday, 74 people were shot in Chicago, of whom 12 died.  Gives added meaning to "bombs bursting in air."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on July 08, 2013, 08:24:56 PM
Chicago reached its 200th homicide of the year on Saturday.  Over the July 4th holiday, 74 people were shot in Chicago, of whom 12 died.  Gives added meaning to "bombs bursting in air."

Jesus!! Just last week I was listening to a report about how better policing was getting the murder rate (relatively) under control, with the rate way down from last year. Hopefully this is just a "blip" and they get back on course.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on July 08, 2013, 08:39:12 PM
You are right, J70.  Chicago's homicide rate is down.  By this time last year, the total was 275.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on July 09, 2013, 04:54:24 PM
http://nocera.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/07/08/weekend-gun-report-july-4th-edition/

Thursday:

Jaden Donald, 5, was shot and critically wounded along with three others during a fireworks outing in Chicago’s Cooper Park on Thursday. The same day, Christian Lyles, 7, was shot twice in the neck in the Chatham neighborhood of Chicago. A teenage boy named Monquize Edwards was shot and killed after fireworks festivities in downtown Indianapolis, Ind., Thursday night. A shooting in Durham, N.C., left 17-year-old Dion Omari Williams dead late Wednesday.

Police say Omari Hoston was shot and wounded by his father, 59-year-old Alvis Dorsey, in Monroe, La., Thursday afternoon. Joshua J. Snapp, 17, was found shot and killed in the desert in Richland, Wash., early Thursday, and Joshua H. Hunt, 19, and John C. Young, 18, are accused of taking turns shooting him. Jamil Sarwar, 30, a New York Police Department officer, was shot while on foot patrol in the Cypress Hills section of Brooklyn, N.Y., late Thursday.

39-year-old Diallo Scott and his 34-year-old brother, Donald Scott, were found shot to death in a gang-related attack in Arcadia, Okla., Thursday afternoon. A man was shot in the leg near an intersection in the Ellwood Park/Monument neighborhood in East Baltimore, Md., early Thursday. A 17-year-old girl was accidentally shot in the arms when her grandfather was firing his handgun, which he believed contained blanks, at his house in northwest Baltimore, Md., Thursday night.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on November 14, 2013, 12:23:07 AM
Gone and, for the most part, forgotten or ignored.

Slate estimates the total number of gun deaths since Sandy Hook at 10,470, but acknowledges that that total is well shy of the actual number and accounts only for comtemporaneous reports by news organizations.  Suicides, for example, which comprise over 60% of gun deaths, go largely unreported.

Even more alarming is that yesterday the Center for Disease Control reported the number of deaths as 30.275.  Numbers that big cease to have meaning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on January 14, 2014, 07:03:42 PM
this murder has absolutely nothing to do with america's gun laws:

Quote
A retired Florida policeman has been charged with murder after allegedly shooting a man who texted during a film.

Authorities said Curtis Reeves, 71, and Chad Oulson, 43, got into an argument before the screening of the film Lone Survivor when Reeves asked Oulson to stop texting.

“Somebody throws popcorn. I’m not sure who threw the popcorn,” said witness Charles Cummings. “And then bang, he was shot.”

Oulson told Reeves he was texting his three-year-old daughter, Cummings said.

Pasco County sheriff’s officials said Reeves and his wife were sitting behind Oulson and his wife. Reeves has been charged with second-degree murder.

“It ended almost as quickly as it started,” said sheriff’s spokesman Doug Tobin. An off-duty deputy detained Reeves until police arrived.

Cummings, who had blood on his clothes, said the trailers before the film were still showing when the couples started arguing. The men started raising their voices and popcorn was thrown.

Authorities said Reeves took out a gun, Oulson’s wife put her hand over her husband and Reeves fired his weapon, striking Nichole Oulson in the hand and her husband in the chest.

“I can’t believe people would bring a pistol, a gun, to a movie,” Cummings said. “I can’t believe they would argue and fight and shoot one another over popcorn. Over a cellphone.”

Cummings said Oulson fell on to him and his son. Another man grabbed the gun, and the suspect did not attempt to get away, Cummings said.

Chad Oulson died in hospital. His wife’s injuries were not life-threatening.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/14/man-shot-dead-at-movies-for-texting

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on May 07, 2014, 09:05:58 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html)

Texas police shoot woman, 93
By Vivian Kuo, CNN

(CNN) -- Texas Rangers are investigating why police in a small central Texas town fatally shot a 93-year-old woman at her home.
Pearlie Golden, a longtime resident of Hearne, Texas, a town of approximately 4,600 people situated about 150 miles south of Dallas, was shot multiple times Tuesday.

"What I understand is (Hearne police) were called out because a woman was brandishing a firearm," Robertson County District Attorney Coty Siegert said.

"An officer asked her to put the handgun down, and when she would not, shots were fired."

Hearne City Attorney Bryan Russ Jr. said Officer Steven Stem told Golden to drop her weapon at least three times.

Stem fired three times, and Golden was hit at least twice, he said.

The Hearne Police Department placed Stem on administrative leave pending the inquiry.

"We're very saddened by this. Everybody in the city government is deeply disappointed that this lady was killed," Russ said. "Now, the investigation is out of our hands. It's under the Texas Rangers, which is where we want it to be."

Community members told CNN affiliate KBTX that Golden, known affectionately as "Ms. Sully," was a sweet woman.

"Even if she did have a gun, she is in her 90s," Lawanda Cooke told KBTX. "They could have shot in the air to scare her. Maybe she would have dropped it. I don't see her shooting anyone."

The case will eventually be presented to a grand jury, which is standard procedure when dealing with officer-involved incidents, Russ said.

In the meantime, Hearne City Council members will meet Saturday to discuss Stem's employment or whether any disciplinary action will be taken.

"I would expect people to be upset about this, a young police officer shooting a 93-year-old lady," Russ said. "I'm upset about it. Most of our citizens are upset but at the same time I don't believe all the facts have come to the surface yet."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on May 21, 2014, 08:55:24 PM
Interesting piece by Armagh man Sean O'Hagan, the pride of Drumarg.  The comment section afterwards is also enlightening:

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/apr/29/armed-to-the-milk-teeth-america-gun-toting-kids

On a related note, the Center for Disease Control puts the number of US gun deaths since Sandy Hook at roughly 49,000.
Title: Map of school/college shootings in the USA since Sandy Hook.
Post by: muppet on June 10, 2014, 08:04:29 PM

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on June 11, 2014, 06:44:23 PM
We moved to get away from the bullet and the bomb, my girls high school in Green Bay, Wisconsin was to be bombed by a few anti social left wing nuts but were thwarted at the last minute !

East High School in Green Bay was almost blown off the map when my two kids were there, the whole school was in lockdown and none of us knew the what the hell was going on, we did not panic given the overkill of the response of the local law enforcement but I would be lying if I said I was not a bit afraid of my kids being hurt by these arseholes!!!



America is a great country, full of wonderful, caring people, unfortunately it has more than its fair share of idiots hell bent on making a name for themselves and injuring and maiming the innocent!

Here's the rub, no matter were you go or were you hide, violence and evil can find you and you can never fully protect your progeny, it is impossible and it is sad
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 11, 2014, 10:12:38 PM

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on June 11, 2014, 11:07:14 PM
Estonia is an odd country to be on that list
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on June 11, 2014, 11:34:41 PM
I don't think it's right. Estonia's rate is 2.54 in 2010 according to http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/estonia
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on June 11, 2014, 11:58:57 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/07/us/texas-police-shoot-elderly-woman-93/index.html)

Texas police shoot woman, 93
By Vivian Kuo, CNN

(CNN) -- Texas Rangers are investigating why police in a small central Texas town fatally shot a 93-year-old woman at her home.
Pearlie Golden, a longtime resident of Hearne, Texas, a town of approximately 4,600 people situated about 150 miles south of Dallas, was shot multiple times Tuesday.

"What I understand is (Hearne police) were called out because a woman was brandishing a firearm," Robertson County District Attorney Coty Siegert said.

"An officer asked her to put the handgun down, and when she would not, shots were fired."

Hearne City Attorney Bryan Russ Jr. said Officer Steven Stem told Golden to drop her weapon at least three times.

Stem fired three times, and Golden was hit at least twice, he said.

The Hearne Police Department placed Stem on administrative leave pending the inquiry.

"We're very saddened by this. Everybody in the city government is deeply disappointed that this lady was killed," Russ said. "Now, the investigation is out of our hands. It's under the Texas Rangers, which is where we want it to be."

Community members told CNN affiliate KBTX that Golden, known affectionately as "Ms. Sully," was a sweet woman.

"Even if she did have a gun, she is in her 90s," Lawanda Cooke told KBTX. "They could have shot in the air to scare her. Maybe she would have dropped it. I don't see her shooting anyone."

The case will eventually be presented to a grand jury, which is standard procedure when dealing with officer-involved incidents, Russ said.

In the meantime, Hearne City Council members will meet Saturday to discuss Stem's employment or whether any disciplinary action will be taken.

"I would expect people to be upset about this, a young police officer shooting a 93-year-old lady," Russ said. "I'm upset about it. Most of our citizens are upset but at the same time I don't believe all the facts have come to the surface yet."


Guess she had it comin ;D

Sorry but seriously if I was living over there I d make sure I d be armed to the teeth. Regulating gun ownership is a splendid idea. But do you think Babyfaced Nelson and Machinegun Kelly got a cert for their guns? I can see where the gun lobby is coming from. The crims are going to have the weapons anyway and regulation for law abiding people would mean they would be reduced to spud guns. In a violent society that is like having your hands tied behind yer back and sent in against Mike Tyson. The USA has been carved by violence and to expect people to move on while it is still violent is not on.
 I own a couple of hunting guns ( never shot anybody and its years since I shot anything alive) but if I could I would own a handgun for protection. I was burgled once while I was in the house and the kids were very young. Not that I want to shoot anybody but I don t want to be destroyed and helpless either.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 12, 2014, 12:04:17 AM
The rest of the developed world seems able to keep guns under control. Fixing the problem in America is not a short term job, but it hasn't gotten anywhere because of the "not an inch" attitude of the NRA. Anything that even remotely smells like sensible gun reform, even if it's a modest reform, is blown up out of all proportion as a threat to personal liberty.  And that's part 2 of the problem, this insane belief in America that freedom is a product of guns rather than a product of democracy and the rule of law.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on June 12, 2014, 12:45:35 AM
The rest of the developed world seems able to keep guns under control. Fixing the problem in America is not a short term job, but it hasn't gotten anywhere because of the "not an inch" attitude of the NRA. Anything that even remotely smells like sensible gun reform, even if it's a modest reform, is blown up out of all proportion as a threat to personal liberty.  And that's part 2 of the problem, this insane belief in America that freedom is a product of guns rather than a product of democracy and the rule of law.

No they don t! And certainly not in Ireland anyway. Organised crime in Ireland have access to whatever they want?
American freedom was the product of guns and they went toe to toe again with themselves during the Civil War. Colts and Winchesters nearly killed as many Native Americansas cholera did. Bit of a pattern emerging there. Add to that you had National Guard using live rounds on strikers and students being blown away during Vietnem protests. Add in JFK, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy, John Lennon etc and you have a hell of a history of guns.

And you expect that 'normal' Americans are going to give up the right to carry the most effective gun they can afford/get. Will they f**k. They realise the people that they live in fear of will not be signing up to any regulation and will get any weapon he wants anyway.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on June 12, 2014, 01:35:16 AM
Quote
No they don t!

Yes they do. Gun crime in Ireland is nowhere near at US levels and well you know it. America is the only country in the developed world that has third world levels of gun crime.

Quote
American freedom was the product of guns and they went toe to toe again with themselves during the Civil War.

What's that got to do with the price of fish? This is 2014.

Ireland's (partial) independence was the product of guns, but nobody would say that's a reason to let any Tom Dick and Sally go out and buy a gun with no restrictions.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Syferus on June 12, 2014, 09:55:08 AM
Sure the best our lads could do would be throwing their notebooks at the mad ould lady. The fact rank-and-file police have to carry guns in the States is evidence enough of the difference.

When our lads go on a power trip you get four penalty points, when their cousins do people end up dead.

We don't give ourselves enough credit for just how good a country we are on the absolute scale. Weather and all, there's few places on Earth better.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 19, 2014, 12:05:10 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/17/police-guns-detroit-crime-race-cost-issues (http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/aug/17/police-guns-detroit-crime-race-cost-issues)

Police tell Detroiters to buy guns in city riven by race issues and crime
City police chief has encouraged residents to arm themselves as stark racial disparities in ‘shoot first’ laws become clear
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 19, 2014, 04:49:09 AM
I lived over here for a few years now and I have to say you gotta laugh at the attitude of some people. I seen a bumper sticker there the other day
"I'll keep my guns, money and freedom, you keep the change"

Of course he was a poor old white guy driving a wreck of a pickup, it was a scene that painted a thousand words about political demographics in America.

Crime in America is a complicated social issue and not quite as simple as availability of guns.

I still can't figure out what this freedom craic is they are raving about, and no one else that I ask seems to either, but i suppose it sounds good if you repeat it over and over again.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2014, 07:05:58 AM
Pretty much. They've gotten it into their heads that freedom is a product of guns, so they just repeat this mantra over and over again until they even believe it in their own minds.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: NAG1 on August 19, 2014, 11:54:28 AM
Pretty much. They've gotten it into their heads that freedom is a product of guns, so they just repeat this mantra over and over again until they even believe it in their own minds.

I think the US is in serious trouble internally, they have a whole raft of people who are disenfranchised and have no particular interest in the laws of the country. Incidents like this one will continue to occur and IMO will become more and more volatile and violent as the go on.

Obama is trying to bring them with him but I think for most it is too late and they see no other future than crime and living in the ghettos.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 09:48:39 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 27, 2014, 09:56:44 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old anyone need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: HiMucker on August 27, 2014, 10:13:33 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old anyone need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
True
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2014, 12:14:22 PM
If you want to freak yourself out, just watch American Guns on Discovery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Tony Baloney on August 27, 2014, 01:26:21 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness
The constitutional right trumps common sense.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2014, 02:45:48 PM
A few years ago in CT a similar incident occurred, but the kid shot himself in the head. (The father in that case was a doctor or surgeon, not some redneck toothless hick)

These fvcking people need to cop the,selves on
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 27, 2014, 06:05:21 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-28948946
FFS why does a 9 year old need to learn how to use an uzi??? Madness

Freedom!! And you never know when jack-booted thugs from the evil federal government will show up on your doorstep!

Oh... and... Freedom!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: No Soloing on August 27, 2014, 06:38:23 PM
This happened at a place called 'Burgers & Bullets' http://bulletsandburgers.com/. Book your birthday party on their website
'Our guests have the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons. You will choose the guns which you want to shoot ... To top it off, lunch is included inside the the World Famous Arizona Last Stop restaurant located onsite. You will be treated with the World Famous All American Hamburger, fresh cut french fries, and a drink.'

Ranked #1 attraction in Las Vegas on Tripadvisor (even with a few negative reviews today)
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g45963-d3697929-Reviews-Bullets_and_Burgers-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

wtf!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: dec on August 27, 2014, 08:17:20 PM



Bullets and Burgers (and Beer)

What could possibly go wrong?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on August 27, 2014, 11:30:51 PM
Seen the manager interviewed and he didn't know how it could have happened. Now I'm no expert but arming a nine year old with an uzi has the potential to cause issues. I hear they're increasing the age limit to 12 years of age now. Least that's sorted.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Linkbox on August 28, 2014, 06:51:05 AM
This happened at a place called 'Burgers & Bullets' http://bulletsandburgers.com/. Book your birthday party on their website
'Our guests have the opportunity to fire a wide range of fully automatic machine guns and specialty weapons. You will choose the guns which you want to shoot ... To top it off, lunch is included inside the the World Famous Arizona Last Stop restaurant located onsite. You will be treated with the World Famous All American Hamburger, fresh cut french fries, and a drink.'

Ranked #1 attraction in Las Vegas on Tripadvisor (even with a few negative reviews today)
http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/Attraction_Review-g45963-d3697929-Reviews-Bullets_and_Burgers-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

wtf!

Jesus Christ that website is an assault on the eyes.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 09:05:49 AM
Seen the manager interviewed and he didn't know how it could have happened. Now I'm no expert but arming a nine year old with an uzi has the potential to cause issues. I hear they're increasing the age limit to 12 years of age now. Least that's sorted.
He says here the minimum age is 8 for Uzis but 5 year olds can use rifles
https://gma.yahoo.com/9-old-girl-accidentally-kills-shooting-range-instructor-063706519--abc-news-topstories.html

in that famous question beloved of 5 year olds. Why ? Why ?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 28, 2014, 03:09:39 PM
Does that not trample all over the constitutional rights of 4 year olds?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 28, 2014, 03:11:10 PM
Does that not trample all over the constitutional rights of 4 year olds?

A perfect summation of the lunacy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 31, 2014, 10:56:01 PM
This is so sad

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/31/idaho-nuclear-scientist-shot-dead-son-walmart

"The woman who was accidentally shot dead by her two-year-old son in an Idaho Walmart is described by those who knew her as a gun lover, a motivated academic and a successful nuclear research scientist.
“She was a beautiful, young, loving mother who was taken much too soon,” Veronica Rutledge’s father-in-law, Terry Rutledge, told the Spokesman-Review. “She was out on what was supposed to be a fun-filled day with her son and nieces.”
Rutledge was shot at about 10.20am on Tuesday, in the electronics department of the Hayden, Idaho, Walmart. Kootenai County sheriffs said her son, sitting in the front of a shopping cart, reached into Rutledge’s purse, found her weapon and shot his mother.
“I mean, this is a pretty tragic incident right now that we’re dealing with,” Kootenai lieutenant Stu Miller told reporters on Tuesday. “When you have young children, small people, holiday season – it’s not a pleasant experience.” "

I remember when I was 7 going for a walk with my cowboy gun but I wouldn't bring it to the supermarket now.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 06, 2015, 10:35:08 AM
Terrible story: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0806/719450-detroit-shooting/

Quote
An 11-year-old boy has been charged with manslaughter over the fatal shooting of a toddler in Detroit.

The older boy allegedly shot the three-year-old boy in the face on Monday and he was pronounced dead on arrival at a hospital, The Detroit News and other media said.

According to CBS Detroit, police at the scene said the boys had been playing with the gun.

The Detroit News quoted Wayne County prosecutor Kym Worthy as saying that the older boy was visiting his father's house when he found a gun in a bedroom wardrobe.

He tossed it out of the bedroom window, Ms Worthy said, retrieved it outside and took it into a parked vehicle where the toddler joined him.

A short time later, Ms Worthy said, the 11-year-old shot the little boy dead.

"I cannot remember a time where we have charged someone so young with taking a life," she was quoted saying in a statement.

"Very unfortunately and very tragically, the alleged facts in this case demanded it.

"The charged respondent here will remain in the juvenile system, but the case remains under investigation.

"As a result of that, I will not say more at this time."

Neither boy has been named.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 06, 2015, 11:35:22 AM
Surely some mistake? I mean 'guns don't kill people'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 06, 2015, 01:58:22 PM
Surely some mistake? I mean 'guns don't kill people'.

Right, it's more the bullets that do that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 06, 2015, 02:19:12 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 06, 2015, 04:22:10 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

Surely the Dad who left the gun in the wardrobe is the one to charge?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on August 06, 2015, 04:24:32 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

They have deemed him as knowing fully as to what he was doing, no matter what happens he will be out when he is 18 and the record expunged, not much but it is something.

I think it disgraceful that this is happening but there are elections to be won and there is the public court of opinion to consider.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 09:11:10 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 06, 2015, 09:51:38 PM
How the f**k do you charge an 11 year old with manslaughter?

They have deemed him as knowing fully as to what he was doing, no matter what happens he will be out when he is 18 and the record expunged, not much but it is something.

I think it disgraceful that this is happening but there are elections to be won and there is the public court of opinion to consider.

But wtf sort of public wants to charge 11 year olds?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on August 06, 2015, 10:50:20 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theticklemister on August 06, 2015, 10:57:27 PM
I  mind my ma not letting me have a toy gun out on the streets As a wain in case the Brits thought it was real.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 06, 2015, 11:02:51 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.

About as well as this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ9_re7f1A
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on August 07, 2015, 06:29:29 PM
Funny video, 93-DY, but he's playing to a Boston audience.  Wonder how well he'd fare in the heart of Dixie playing to a Nascar audience.

About as well as this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePQ9_re7f1A

Lyrics to Kazakhstan National Anthem

Kazakhstan greatest country in the world
 all other countrys are run by little girls.
Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium!
Other countries have inferior potassium.

Kazakhstan home of the tinshein swimming pool
 it's length thirty metre ans width six metre.
Filtration system a marvel to behold
it removes 80 percent of human solid waste.
 
Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place,
from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.
 Kazakhstan, friend of all except Uzbekistan,
they very nosey people withe bone in theire brain.

Kazakhstan, industry best in the world,
we invented toffee and the trouser belt.
Kazakhstan, prostitutes cleanest in the region,
except of course for Turkmenistan's.

Kazakhstan,Kazakhstan, you very nice place,
from plains of tarashenk to northern fence of jewtown.
 Come grasp the mighty phenis of our leader,
from juction with testes to tip of its face.


In Kuwait, they played it by mistake at a swimming medal ceremony: ]http://wn.com/kazakhstan_national_anthem__borat_[with_lyrics] (http://wn.com/kazakhstan_national_anthem__borat_[with_lyrics)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 16, 2015, 12:22:10 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I

That link has been pulled. Here's another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZPxkRmmH4s

It's possibly the best marshalling of all the arguments against the gun culture I've seen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 16, 2015, 08:27:44 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before but can't be arsed going through all the pages. Jim Jeffries, Aussie comic, nails it here.

https://youtu.be/Jl--YVnni0I

That link has been pulled. Here's another one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZPxkRmmH4s

It's possibly the best marshalling of all the arguments against the gun culture I've seen.

 :D

Brilliant stuff!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 02:03:52 PM
This is all kinds of fucked up

Gunman murders reporter and cameraman live on TV this morning

http://gawker.com/gunman-fires-shots-at-virginia-news-crew-during-live-re-1726593659?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_twitter&utm_source=gawker_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 02:15:16 PM
Jesus Christ
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 26, 2015, 02:17:38 PM
That is horrible.... just absolutely horrible!!!

Have we had the "They should have been armed and they'd still be alive" nonsense appear yet? It just baffles me!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 26, 2015, 02:40:33 PM
That is horrible.... just absolutely horrible!!!

Have we had the "They should have been armed and they'd still be alive" nonsense appear yet? It just baffles me!!

It won't be long.

America is a sick society in so many ways.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: smort on August 26, 2015, 02:43:22 PM
Your right J70, sick is the only way to describe it. Cannot believe what I have just watched.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 26, 2015, 02:51:14 PM
but, but ,but it is their right......
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 02:54:05 PM
I wonder when Madison et al were framing the 2nd Amendment, ie

 "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

did they ever think anything like this would ever happen? I'd say the hero in that incident is as far removed from the ideals the 'founding fathers' had as is possible to be.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 26, 2015, 03:00:16 PM
I probably posted this in 2011 in another thread, but it works just as well today:


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 26, 2015, 03:21:41 PM
I wonder when Madison et al were framing the 2nd Amendment, ie

 "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

did they ever think anything like this would ever happen? I'd say the hero in that incident is as far removed from the ideals the 'founding fathers' had as is possible to be.

Alexander Hamilton thought the Bill of Rights was a terrible idea. He was surely thinking "I told ya so" as his life drained away after Aaron Burr shot him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 03:29:47 PM
The Virginia Governer has said the suspect, still at large, is a disgruntled station employee.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:01:07 PM

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 26, 2015, 04:17:48 PM



Is that no. of mass shootings Gab? Or no. of deaths from them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Must be number of mass shootings, otherwise 1 wouldn't appear.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:20:50 PM
The sick f**ker just tweeted a video of himself doing the shooting on Twitter  :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:24:21 PM
Only one way this is ending I'd say. An ex reporter that got fired a year ago. I'm listening to the Police Scanner there. They have no idea where he is. Searching for a Silver Chevy. the Scanner is not like Hill Street Blues anyway!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 26, 2015, 04:34:26 PM
The sick f**ker just tweeted a video of himself doing the shooting on Twitter  :o

You only thought the first video was mental... this looks like a real life Duke Nukem... horrifying!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:38:17 PM
On the scanner they just cancelled the BOLO for the Suspect and his Vehicle. Sounds like another PD got him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on August 26, 2015, 04:45:37 PM
On the scanner they just cancelled the BOLO for the Suspect and his Vehicle. Sounds like another PD got him.

He killed himself - the coward
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 26, 2015, 04:46:18 PM
That's what I was thinking would happen in my above post.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on August 26, 2015, 05:10:23 PM
He's not dead but sounds like he soon will be...

Heres a live feed from the station that the tv crew worked for, must be an absolute head-wreaker for the guys working there today. Fair play to them

http://www.wdbj7.com/video/livestreaming
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 26, 2015, 10:12:29 PM
Just waiting for the gun lobby to come out with their twisted logic and say if the two reporters had of been armed this wouldn't have happened. Will the US ever wise up to this scourge?

RIP to the two journalists. Pity the sick ba$tard who did this got his easy way out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2015, 12:28:29 AM
Just waiting for the gun lobby to come out with their twisted logic and say if the two reporters had of been armed this wouldn't have happened. Will the US ever wise up to this scourge?

RIP to the two journalists. Pity the sick ba$tard who did this got his easy way out.

For better or worse, law abiding citizens are guaranteed, under the constitution, the right to bear arms. That won't be changing anytime soon (if ever)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 27, 2015, 01:01:02 AM

It was a hand- gun and can t see how any reforms in American gun law could have prevented that. If somebody wants to kill people badly enough they ll find a way.

The scary thing is - from the footage- he could have done it with a knife, axe, machete.

Of course this only strengthens the gun lobby position. Laws are not heeded by people who rob banks and kill people. So gun laws only affect people who are law abiding. You are not allowed to have hand guns and assault rifles in this country but the people that want to get them and use them manage to get them. It doesn t seem to be that difficult if you wan t to.

I d say most Americans are very responsible gun owners. And I can understand why they would want to hold onto their guns when stuff like this happens. It's simple.  The crims and nutters will get guns illegally anyway so what's the point?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on August 27, 2015, 01:39:49 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 27, 2015, 02:21:38 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

 A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 08:21:19 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

 A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.


The problem is this culture has been allowed to develop. Anyone with the intent to kill someone will do it regardless but when getting your hands on a gun of any kind is so easy it's only going to make it easier for those that want to shoot someone to do it. It's impossible to prevent every last killing but tightening gun control can only reduce it.
 
Are we saying that there are more homicidal maniacs running around America that any other civilised country and they'd be killing people regardless of how hard it was to get their hands on a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 27, 2015, 08:54:37 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

 A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.

If gun laws were as tight in the USA as they are here there would be people alive today who are long dead..
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 27, 2015, 09:13:30 AM
The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway.

By that logic, should heroin and cocaine also be legal seeing as people can already get them anywhere.

Whatever about handguns or hunting guns being legal, there's no reason anybody should be able to buy a semi-automatic or other sophisticated guns (apart from the gun companies' need to sell them)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on August 27, 2015, 09:25:45 AM
The gun nuts are happy to live with these mass murders and the everyday background rate of murder as collateral damage of their right to own military - grade assault weapons to "protect" themselves against others with the same access. The rest just don't have the same motivation and basically gave up when Sandy Hook wouldn't even budge the nuts an inch. The lunatics won, and any of us who live in the states could be the victim of some deranged moron who had no problem buying a gun.

The deranged moron will have no problem buying a gun anyway, no matter how strict gun laws get - anywhere. Heroin and cocaine are illegal but can be got without too much difficulty. My point is that people that wan t to get a weapon and kill people, will anyway. Any weapon. Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.

Guns are freely available anyway - probably almost anywhere.

I betcha no candidate running for President will be silly enough to make this an issue. The USA  evolved because of Europeans using guns to get rid of natives (a genocide) and then protect their land.

 A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

It's always a problem when only the bad guys have access to the better weapons.

How many mass lollipop attacks are there every year? or even mass stabbings?
This is the sort of nonsense argument I cant get my head around.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:30:51 AM
Crazy argument.

Yes a seriously homicidal and deranged maniac is going to find a way to kill people if need be.

If guns become illegal I'm guaranteeing it will deter a lot of maniacs from taking that final step to getting a gun and actually killing people. The fact it is so easy to get a gun means that we are seeing a greater occurence of these massacres!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: theskull1 on August 27, 2015, 09:43:03 AM
Crazy that people are blind to that argument
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 27, 2015, 09:43:43 AM
A big development on the system that controlled Europe for hundreds of years where a minority of killer thugs (knights/barons/princes/earls) built castles and with the backing of holy men (monks) extorted the majority of the population for centuries. The reason they were able to do this was because they had the weapons and were prepared to use them and made sure the peasants had neither weapons or even the opportunity to hunt/fish for food.

Maybe I'm reading you wrong, but how is a situation where everyone has the capacity for lethal violence an improvement on one where the state, whether it be feudal lords, the church, or the modern day nation state, has a monopoly on lethal violence?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 10:04:49 AM
Crazy argument.

Yes a seriously homicidal and deranged maniac is going to find a way to kill people if need be.

If guns become illegal I'm guaranteeing it will deter a lot of maniacs from taking that final step to getting a gun and actually killing people. The fact it is so easy to get a gun means that we are seeing a greater occurence of these massacres!

Add in the factor that people who are not necessarily crazy deranged lunatics can get depressed, angry, scared or whatever and if they have a gun to hand, bad things happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 11:17:18 AM
Crazy that people are blind to that argument

+1

I really can't see how anyone could argue against the fact that controlling guns would greatly reduce the murder rate in the US. I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting that you can prevent every last murder but you can certainly take action to dramatically reduce it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2015, 12:48:53 PM
It is our 2nd Ammendment right to have guns,

An amendment is a formal or official change made to a law, contract, constitution, or other legal document. It is based on the verb to amend, which means to change. Amendments can add, remove, or update parts of these agreements. They are often used when it is better to change the document than to write a new one.[1]

So it's not set in stone.  I wonder do Americans know this?




Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on August 27, 2015, 12:54:19 PM
It's not set in stone, but the chances of getting an amendment to the 2nd Amendment at the moment are nil. Not almost nil. Nil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on August 27, 2015, 01:01:35 PM
Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.


Don't know about the gun laws in Israel but I'm guessing if they were freely available he would have gone with a gun rather than a knife and there would have been more than one person murdered.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 02:07:03 PM
Look at that Israeli nut that waded into a gay parade pride with a knife and a 16 yr old girl died. Just released from prison he was and continued on his merry way by attacking the next parade he came across. You d have to ban every possible potential weapon down to lollipop sticks to stop a demon like that. Or lock up every potential prospect.


Don't know about the gun laws in Israel but I'm guessing if they were freely available he would have gone with a gun rather than a knife and there would have been more than one person murdered.

These things can happen in any country and by any means. It's the level of regularity at which these murders take place in the US that sets it apart.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 02:58:14 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 27, 2015, 03:18:10 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 03:55:09 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
I don't disagree with any of that - but most of America does unfortunately
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:10:28 PM
we can all huff and puff about it as much as we want. The 2nd amendment isn't going to change in this generation or the next. 
people agree that reform is necessary but the reform would target law abiding citizens - not criminals (in their eyes)

It's a screwed up situation. And people die every day because of it

People were law abiding when slavery and segregation and lack of women's suffrage were in place. Society evolves moves on and people have to move with it
I don't disagree with any of that - but most of America does unfortunately

When it suits them they do. America has become one of the most PC countries in the world. But it's lobby groups, money and influence that shapes their society. So unless you can out lobby the gun lobby, you're fucked.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 04:15:27 PM
I get frustrated with it AZ.  We create this big stir in the media around the globe. The people are divided. Its coming in to election season now full swing but nothing changes.
Blue or red. They are all the same - controlled by big business and the gold coin.....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:21:04 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

Quote
Erich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 04:26:38 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

Quote
Erich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.

No mention of the fact that if the guy kicked out of the bar didn't have access to a shotgun there's a fair chance nobody would have been killed!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on August 27, 2015, 04:27:52 PM
Lads, should we laugh or cry?? He's well named anyway...

Quote
Erich Pratt is director of communications with Gun Owners of America. He told Newstalk Breakfast guns actually protect people from harm.

"Good guys with guns in this country stop mass shootings from occurring and it happens all the time" he said.

"Just recently in the state of Ohio a guy was kicked out of a bar, he got angry, went home, grabbed a shot gun (and) came back to the bar firing".

"But thankfully in our country we allow citizens to carry firearms - nobody was killed because somebody who works there in that bar pulled out his concealed firearms (and) shot and killed the guy" he added.

No mention of the fact that if the guy kicked out of the bar didn't have access to a shotgun there's a fair chance nobody would have been killed!!

Exactly. So much bollix in 3 sentences.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 04:48:19 PM
I heard that guy on Newstalk. He started off all sweetness and (twisted) logic but he gradually started losing it as the interviewer asked tougher questions. When he was asked if he thought there would be fewer mass killings if there were fewer guns available, he started ranting about the interviewer wanting to impose his standards and had to be reminded that the interviewer had only asked a question.

He finished off by saying that he and his organisation would not be in favour of background checks for gun buyers because, among other things, men aren't background checked for adultery before being given a marriage license. The interviewer didn't get to ask him how many people had been killed in mass marriages in the last year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on August 27, 2015, 05:20:32 PM
A little lite relief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTyQ4Q8z-D8
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 27, 2015, 05:33:52 PM
I heard that guy on Newstalk. He started off all sweetness and (twisted) logic but he gradually started losing it as the interviewer asked tougher questions. When he was asked if he thought there would be fewer mass killings if there were fewer guns available, he started ranting about the interviewer wanting to impose his standards and had to be reminded that the interviewer had only asked a question.

He finished off by saying that he and his organisation would not be in favour of background checks for gun buyers because, among other things, men aren't background checked for adultery before being given a marriage license. The interviewer didn't get to ask him how many people had been killed in mass marriages in the last year.

 ;D ;DWhat an eejit

Nearly as bad as comparing feigning injury to genocide, eh Hardy ;)

You gotta laugh tho at radio shows getting these eejits on for a bit of stupidity so that we can all have a good chuckle at them.

A majority of Americans like having guns, and like playing with them, legally and safely it must be said. But at the end of the day, thats what it all boils down to. The silly arguments that are spun for keeping them are just a justification of that fact.

They dont see it as worth the sacrifice to give them up, its as much to do with the rise of individualism as anything else. "Why should I do...x, y, z, just because he did....x,y,z"
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 27, 2015, 06:28:18 PM
http://www.gallup.com/poll/1645/guns.aspx

The stats revealed her make for interesting reading.

I have no problem with law abiding citizens owning guns, but more must be done to tighten background checks and keep guns out of the hnds of the mentally unstable.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on August 27, 2015, 08:12:24 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on August 27, 2015, 08:15:22 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.

But whats the answer? Give me a solution that can credibly work? An amnesty isn't going to happen. Background checks going forward wont solve the millions of guns on the street today.
I just don't see an answer that will work given the history of the country and knowing the people on the ground
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 08:31:22 PM
It is too easy to say that bad guys will always get guns. This may be true, but regular mad people don't generally have easy access to criminal circles. They may get a knife, but as stated above this might mean they kill one rather than many, a worthwhile gain.

But whats the answer? Give me a solution that can credibly work? An amnesty isn't going to happen. Background checks going forward wont solve the millions of guns on the street today.
I just don't see an answer that will work given the history of the country and knowing the people on the ground

Exactly. The situation is irretrievable. There's no going back from where America is now to where the rest of the civilised world stands on gun control. Mass killings and mad gun-toting rampages are here to stay in the USA.

Two things would worry you:
1) Given how American culture gradually colonises the rest of the English-speaking the world through its domination of global media and entertainment, there's a danger that, rather than America seeing sense and copying us on gun control, the American attitude to guns might get exported along with Hollywood, rap and America, f**k yeah.
2) The American attitude that a gun is the answer to so many problems goes all the way in their society - up to foreign policy level. Except they have more than guns at that level. A declining economic power with nuclear firepower and the proven willingness to use it is the international relations equivalent of a drunken cowboy in a saloon with a bazooka, who has just lost his year's wages at the poker table.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on August 27, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on August 27, 2015, 09:27:46 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

What a nut case. And your man on arguing the 2nd amendment is a pure nut job as well.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on August 27, 2015, 09:45:32 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

Jesus! That is mental. The guy is completely nuts. If anything he is showing exactly why there needs to be more gun control and checks on people's mental health before the get a gun. He has 50 of them! :o :o :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on August 27, 2015, 10:04:05 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

It's good to hear the crazy people telling us why the crazy people have guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stpauls on August 28, 2015, 02:34:28 PM
saw the video below the other day, mind blowing how many people have died at the hands of a gun which was bought for protection purposes!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAfWfF4TjM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nAfWfF4TjM)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 28, 2015, 11:17:28 PM
The Yank on Matt Cooper lost the plot this evening.

Started talking along the lines of  'this is our United States of America and guns are our freedom. People dying is the price you pay for freedom! You people don't understand and to be honest you shouldn't concern yourselves with what's going on in our Country!!'

I'm remember the guy Piers Morgan had on his show a few years ago... It was pretty ridiculous the guy basically wouldn't engage at all ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XZvMwcluEg

Jesus! That is mental. The guy is completely nuts. If anything he is showing exactly why there needs to be more gun control and checks on people's mental health before the get a gun. He has 50 of them! :o :o :o


Thats feckin hilarious, reminds me why the TV in our house only gets a run out of about 3 hrs a week, eejits like that are on all the time.

I was kind of impressed by yer man actually, he appeared to be quite articulate, was able to refer to a bunch of facts, and all the while appearing to be in a blind rage which he sustained for an incredible length of time. And he threw in a great impression at the end! Seem like he'd be quare craic in the pub, obviously you'd only pint with him in a place that had metal detectors on the door tho.

Serves Morgan right tho, in his arrogance he thought he was going to have a debate with yer man and instead got the full on hairdryer treatment. If every tabloid journalist got a touch of that every week the world would be a better place!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:19:18 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on August 29, 2015, 01:53:24 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns

You ve kinda raised issues here and answered them at the same time.

The bottom line is though that the U.S are not going to give up their guns. No Presidential candidate would touch that issue with a barge pole. Al Gore arguably lost crucial states because he made shapes about gun control. He probably would have president if he avoided the issue.
 Every time a 'nutter' goes nasty probably increases sales of firearms among regular people really when you think about it. There are so many weapons out there anyway those that want to go to town will have no problem getting them. I'm bemused by people reaction to my earlier posts. Restrictive gun laws only take guns away from people less likely to use them. We have restrictive gun laws here and when crims want to do a job they have no problem getting a banned weapon.

Also politically the US is complicated. They don t trust central government (remember Regan's quote 'government is the problem ')  and got their independence with a long drawn out revolution where the continental army went through great losses. We tried to copy them but we failed because we didn t have the guns among other reasons. The British general that surrendered to Washington at Yorktown, was the same man that Humbert surrendered to at Ballinamuck not too many years later.

 In their civil war Americans slaughtered each others in battles like Gettysburg and Bull Run I and II. Bull run II was up there in the casualty stakes with some of the 'celebrated WWI battles'. They are well used to coping with casualties since with WWI an II, Korea, Vietnam etc. A kid going nuts in a school or whatever is small beer in the big picture.

The idea that Americans will give up their weapons is a non runner
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on August 29, 2015, 02:35:34 AM
American really do come across as so stupid and cant see right from wrong. When did the 2nd amendment  come in 1791, in a world where they freely run slaves, where America was a new wild frontier, a country prior to the genocide of the Indian wars, (they still think they done nothing wrong there) so many of the states as yet did not even exist, the wild west was really that the wild west. a country which still had  a million bison before they were massacred for skins. So since that time, theres about 4000 bison left, the native American were eradicated and shipped out to reservations on the poorest land only got round to black people been equally 60yrs ago (some say they still treated unequal)

So for some dumb f**ks to use the 2nd amendment from 1791 (when a gun was a powder single shot rifle which could shoot 2 shots a minute to a  semi automatic which can fire up to 500 a minute).as there right  to use guns is a crock of shit, they claim to be the land of the free and all for democracy but are so short sighted that they don't even protect their citizens. Money talks and the gun industry is all about making money. makes you wonder how they voted to end slavery but are so stupid not to clamp down on guns

The only time an amendment was ever repealed in the US was the alcohol prohibition amendment, almost a century ago now.   Altering an amendment requires firstly 2/3 of congress and 2/3 of the senate to approve, and this then requires ratification by 2/3 of the individual state governments.  There is just no way that those figures could be attained for at least a generation or two.  Guns are here to stay.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Niall Quinn on August 29, 2015, 04:54:51 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 29, 2015, 05:36:56 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

I think your right there big Quinno. Far to much obsessing about it by the media of foreign countries when it has no affect on them whatsoever. Ultimately its no one else's business but Americans
 
The flip side of that is of course that thanks to American media and mass immigration from many different parts of the world we all know about America and think we understand it quite well. But then we actually don't, precisely for that reason that their are so many cultures and so many different starting points that people have came from to arrive at the present. Yet non-Americans have no problem casting judgement on those people looking at it purely from their own background, values and point of view. Indeed you could maybe even argue that is the problem in America itself, that people are more and more only focused on their own point of view and dismiss any1 differing from them as a total craicpot.

I've travelled a fair bit in vastly different cultures to Western, and something that I have to learn over and over again is to not to make judgement about other cultures based on my own values. You'll either go insane or get lynched! Americans (and a good deal of Irish too for that matter) love getting in a fuss over Saudi Arabia and their human rights. But few people have any understanding of Saudi culture, their way of life, values or history. Or perhaps more importantly, the fact that what happens in Saudi Arabia has virtually no affect on their own lives.  Yet, they have no problem in casting judgement on it as being the epitome of barbarism.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on August 29, 2015, 07:36:00 AM
Americans have no problem blowing about how superior they are to everyone else, some comment in the other direction will help balance things.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 29, 2015, 09:05:37 AM
Exactly, this nonsense about how it's nobody else's business and there are countries in worse positions completely overlooks the fact that America is the global superpower, "the land of the free", " the leader of the free world" etc

Brazil, Mexico, Honduras etc are not first world countries.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: macdanger2 on August 29, 2015, 09:37:20 AM
Is the attention given to American gun culture disproportionate?
From the most recent UN data (see below url), the U.S. is some 25% below the world average homicide per capita rate, and in 2012, Mexico had almost twice the number of total murders.
Should Brazil (50k murders in 2012) be the focus of the international community instead? Or Honduras, where you're 20 times more likely to be murdered than the U.S.?

I'm not intending in any way to undermine recent events, and my views on gun control are probably in line with the excellent Australian comedian Hardy posted a link to previously.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate)

I think your right there big Quinno. Far to much obsessing about it by the media of foreign countries when it has no affect on them whatsoever. Ultimately its no one else's business but Americans
 
The flip side of that is of course that thanks to American media and mass immigration from many different parts of the world we all know about America and think we understand it quite well. But then we actually don't, precisely for that reason that their are so many cultures and so many different starting points that people have came from to arrive at the present. Yet non-Americans have no problem casting judgement on those people looking at it purely from their own background, values and point of view. Indeed you could maybe even argue that is the problem in America itself, that people are more and more only focused on their own point of view and dismiss any1 differing from them as a total craicpot.

I've travelled a fair bit in vastly different cultures to Western, and something that I have to learn over and over again is to not to make judgement about other cultures based on my own values. You'll either go insane or get lynched! Americans (and a good deal of Irish too for that matter) love getting in a fuss over Saudi Arabia and their human rights. But few people have any understanding of Saudi culture, their way of life, values or history. Or perhaps more importantly, the fact that what happens in Saudi Arabia has virtually no affect on their own lives.  Yet, they have no problem in casting judgement on it as being the epitome of barbarism.

Kind of an isolationist viewpoint there joe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 12:01:22 PM
Nobody else business/ Hell if they kept to that ideology we wouldn't have the cluster f**k going on in Iraq and along the Syrian borders at the minute. The previous dictactor Saddam was  a heinous individual but 2 Iraq wars totalled for more Iraq's killed than the iran-iraq 7yrs war. i don't see Bush or Blair been brought to task for that. they are the main reason the middle east a  f**king mess. Its a pity they didn't mind they own business back round 1947-49 when Israel was palestine to the Americans butted in, that hasn't went too well since.

look at Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, the American have a habit of butting into things not their business, so i think we just butt into theirs
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 12:26:15 PM
Nobody else business/ Hell if they kept to that ideology we wouldn't have the cluster f**k going on in Iraq and along the Syrian borders at the minute. The previous dictactor Saddam was  a heinous individual but 2 Iraq wars totalled for more Iraq's killed than the iran-iraq 7yrs war. i don't see Bush or Blair been brought to task for that. they are the main reason the middle east a  f**king mess. Its a pity they didn't mind they own business back round 1947-49 when Israel was palestine to the Americans butted in, that hasn't went too well since.

look at Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, the American have a habit of butting into things not their business, so i think we just butt into theirs


Do they teach history where you went to school?  Google the "Cold War" and maybe you'll  figure out why they were "butting in". 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on August 29, 2015, 01:42:24 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 02:13:54 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: trileacman on August 29, 2015, 07:06:51 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 29, 2015, 08:36:57 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on August 29, 2015, 08:48:29 PM
don't forget the brit whitey- 4 of them got the Legion of Honor medal.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 30, 2015, 04:21:36 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on August 30, 2015, 07:36:15 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken. You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the status quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 30, 2015, 01:46:09 PM
don't forget the brit whitey- 4 of them got the Legion of Honor medal.

Jaysus Hegan, if I start praising Tans as well they'll lose the plot completely
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 06:52:45 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken.

If you dont that's fine but Armaghniac's post would appear to directly contradict that.

Quote
You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the Saturdays quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Why do I appear to be under that impression? I never said anything of the sort

Quote
Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.

No it doesnt amount to that, the guns issue is confronted over and over again and goes nowhere and there appears to be no clear route to dealing with it sanely. There are multiple reasons for violence in American society, the most weighting in my opinion would be wealth disparity, individualism and lack of community, all of which I would rate ahead of gun availability, but none of those have even been floated as a root cause in the mainstream debate.

BTW if you keep it on topic you'll probably be less embarrassed and feel less pathetic
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 07:12:16 AM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth

My Cold War history is a little sketchy Whitey.. Remind me... Was America intervening in countries to stop genocide taking place? Because I dont think they bothered with any of those ones you mentioned above, in fact the last one you mentioned, I believe they created the conditions for it.

Your also forgetting the French guy who decided to remain anonymous on that train in France
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: winghalfun on August 31, 2015, 12:25:53 PM
"Not till your 12 son" and this was back in 1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlA2hACf6G0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlA2hACf6G0)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on August 31, 2015, 01:35:42 PM
All the arguments need to be viewed in the context of the US historical record in military "intervention" -Here's a list of them http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html (http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html)

As George Carlin said - We like war, we are war like people. We like war, because we are good at it. You know why we are good at it? Because we did a lot of practice. This country is only 200 years old and already we have had 10 major wars. We average a major war every 20 years in this country, so we are good at it! And that is good thing we are, we are not very good in anything else anymore. Can't built a decent car, can't make a TV set or VCR where the f**k. Got no steel industry left, can't educate our young people can't get health care for our old people, but we can bomb the shit out of your country alright?!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on August 31, 2015, 02:05:16 PM
I fair say i know alot more about the cold war than you, Americas paranoid on communism is well documented. maybe if you didn't put Nuclear weapons sites in turkey leading to the Cuban missile crisis the cold war mightn't have kicked off. Am surprised you know, since most Americans seem stuck back in 1791, in a way alot like Northen Ireland half them are still stuck back with King Billy in 1690

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes


I'm sure the 80-100 M people who died under communist dictatorships would respectfully disagree with you
And the millions slaughtered under by U.S. Forces and capitalist banana republics would disagree with you ya f**king idiot.


LOL-Stalin, Mao , Pol Pot. US doesn't hold a candle to them. Someone must have stolen the history books out of your bag my friend.

FFS it took 3 yanks to stop the gunman on the train last week while the French train guards hid in their booth

My Cold War history is a little sketchy Whitey.. Remind me... Was America intervening in countries to stop genocide taking place? Because I dont think they bothered with any of those ones you mentioned above, in fact the last one you mentioned, I believe they created the conditions for it.

Your also forgetting the French guy who decided to remain anonymous on that train in France

Cold War was about limitimg spread of Communism and diminishing the influence of China and Soviet Union in SE Asia (among a humber of places)....thats where the roots of the Korean and Vietnamese war lie.  And if you think America was paranoid about the evil of Communism, do you think the 75-100 M killed the,selves
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on August 31, 2015, 03:58:45 PM
So it was to prevent the spread of Communism/Socialism/left wing governments, nothing to do with preventing genocides, dictatorships or supporting democracy then.

Glad we could clear that up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on September 01, 2015, 02:37:20 AM
Listen lads if you think its your business, or if your opinion (which you are completely entitled to BTW) makes any odds to Americans' opinions, or the laws their government creates, your sadly mistaken.

Whats more, if your opinion had any weight it would likely be viewed negatively and get people's back up even more.

The gun culture in America is nuts of course, but remember your looking at it from your own perspective.

I'll harp back again to the thing of individualism, its a lot stronger in America than it is in Ireland where people tend to look at their community and country as more of a collective. So in America, if you tell one guy with guns that is doing no harm to anyone, that you are gonna take his guns away because someone else done something bad, he will not understand it. He really literally wouldn't understand or get that it is for the greater good. Whereas in Ireland I think that there is be more of an acceptance of "takin one for the team" or whatever.

That of course only deals with individuals opinions tho, which despite the facade of democracy is actually irrelevant to the laws. The real reason there is no gun control in America is because the lobby groups have so many politicians in their pockets.

Anyway since getting rid of the guns unfortunately appears to be off the table, debating it to death is futile and only causes more division. A more productive approach might be to float some alternative solutions to America's societal problems.

If you think that any of us are under any impression that our opinions make any odds to the laws of the United States, then you are sadly mistaken. You appear to be under the impression that 99.9% of Americans support the Saturdays quo on guns and again, despite living there, you are sadly mistaken.

Your point about the futility on the debate of the issues is pathetic and amounts to "it's a difficult issue to confront, so let's not even bother". If more people thought like that blacks would still be picking cotton under slavery, women wouldn't be allowed vote, Catholics couldn't get jobs and Mandela would have died in prison. Embarrassing.

What is embarrassing is your use of the term blacks!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on September 01, 2015, 11:46:18 AM
Black is offensive? I thought it was just a colour! Is White Offensive?

I'd have thought coloured was way more offensive.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 03, 2015, 12:03:22 AM
I like the NRA.

I think everyone should carry a loaded gun, everywhere, at all times.

It would make both matches in Croker next weekend waaayyyyy more interesting. Also road rage, air rage and closing time would be much more entertaining. And imagine the Ulster Championship!

Cool......
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: deiseach on September 03, 2015, 09:10:57 AM
Black is offensive? I thought it was just a colour! Is White Offensive?

I'd have thought coloured was way more offensive.

I recall an episode of Scrubs - not an authority on these things, but the anecdote is as good as any - where a Boston Brahmin-type character used the term 'African-American' and was gently told that 'black' was the accepted term these days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: smort on September 14, 2015, 06:18:33 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/14/delta-state-university-active-shooter-on-campus/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 14, 2015, 07:01:37 PM
Everyone should have more guns, especially these people: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJVF-w0We8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPJVF-w0We8)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 08:45:15 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on September 14, 2015, 09:35:37 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on September 14, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?



Well, I was hopin for Muppet...but you'll do nicely J70

(Winding reel furisously)......GOTCHA! :D

Im about as serious as Muppet was! ;)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: mikehunt on September 14, 2015, 09:55:48 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

How dare you. The authority on all things moral and intellectual shall smite thee down with great anger and furious vengeance
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on September 15, 2015, 01:05:22 AM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Pistols at dawn.

You choose the venue.

I choose the calibre.  ;D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on September 15, 2015, 01:50:51 PM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Seriously?



Well, I was hopin for Muppet...but you'll do nicely J70

(Winding reel furisously)......GOTCHA! :D

Im about as serious as Muppet was! ;)

I thought so, but just checking anyway!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on October 01, 2015, 09:10:16 PM

I suppose this is back in the limelight now after the Oregon shooting this morning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 01, 2015, 09:41:00 PM

I suppose this is back in the limelight now after the Oregon shooting this morning.

For a few hours anyway...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on October 01, 2015, 09:47:09 PM
Again another massace, what is wrong with Americans anyway, Cant they see the easy access to guns makes the likelihood of numerous deaths to some nutjob very likely.

Why do we never see this things on a regular basis in the UK, i say we got our fair number of nutters too but  their access to an arsenal to cause harm is restricted over here. Michael Ryan at Hungerford and Dunblane are the 2 most serious incidents i recall but this is a 6 monthly event in the good ole USA
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 01, 2015, 10:24:47 PM
Quote
this is a 6 monthly event in the good ole USA

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/01/2015-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/10/01/2015-274-days-294-mass-shootings-hundreds-dead/)
2015: 274 days, 294 mass shootings, 45th school shooting this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 01, 2015, 10:42:39 PM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on October 02, 2015, 12:00:52 AM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is always a reason. Somebody does not do this for no reason. There is always a motive for these events, and the crazy thing is there is usually concerns about the perpetrators before these tragedies happen.

Of course the relatively easy access to deadly weapons is an issue. These events now are endemic in American culture unfortunately and it seems to be a way that damaged individuals choose to make a statement/mark. Usually their final statement.

On reflection I accept that guns being so freely available has helped drive what has become a 'fashion'. That's what it is. Somebody gets pissed off and go do what the Columbine kids did.

We can t afford to be complacent here either. Last year an armed intruder was tasered in a school but it was kept quiet. We re about the only country in the western world that has not had a major school incident. We re on borrowed time.  Most schools are insecure and anybody can walk/drive in and roam around unchallenged. It could be only a matter of time before something bad happens.

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 01:27:52 AM
Muppet, your last two posts on this thread have been completely disgraceful, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Wise up mate, he is not serious!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 01:30:05 AM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is, every single shooter was a fox network watchin, gun totin, redneck, trump supportin far right nutjob, just ask 99% of the liberals on here!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:37:31 AM
13 reported dead so far - fI can't wrap my head around why anyone would do it - just snuff out innocent lives like that  - there is no reason

There is, every single shooter was a fox network watchin, gun totin, redneck, trump supportin far right nutjob, just ask 99% of the liberals on here!

Don't think I've ever read anything close to that here.

The issue with the Fox News/NRA crowd is their complete and utter unwillingness to cede even a inch towards doing something about free, unchecked, access to guns by anyone and everyone.

The only chance of any action being taken would be if this shooter turned out to be a muslim.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on October 02, 2015, 03:35:20 AM
His name was Chris Harper Mercer - and for some reason seemed to have a thing for the IRA

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/umpqua-gunman-id-d-as-chris-harper-mercer.mobile.html
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 06:41:36 AM
His name was Chris Harper Mercer - and for some reason seemed to have a thing for the IRA

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/10/01/umpqua-gunman-id-d-as-chris-harper-mercer.mobile.html

 :o WTF!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 12:32:37 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:




Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 01:23:17 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:






Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 01:30:12 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:30:29 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:






Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

"We arrived to find multiple patients in multiple classrooms. Law enforcement was on scene and had the shooter neutralized," said Douglas County Fire Marshal Ray Shoufler.

They don't line people up in the car park, where a shooter could pick them off, while the shooting is still going on. The shooting was long over when the photos were taken. Also, if the argument for legalising guns, is that everyone should have a gun to save them from bad men, what exactly are the police searching for?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 01:34:49 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Last Man on October 02, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 02:45:14 PM
Muppet, you're mad to have a go at the cops. In this scenario, that's just standard practice. They have to make sure they see hands so there's no other shooters. No one is cuffed, or arrested, it's just standard safety practice at a shooting scene where you don't know if there was an accomplice or not.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 02, 2015, 02:51:39 PM
Of all the dumb shit that happens in America, and all the dumb shit that cops have done recently - there is no argument to be made criticizing the actions of the police in these pictures. I can imagine the faux incredulity that would be spewing forth if the cops just let everyone paddle on out and then a second shooter made mincemeat of a large bolus of people on a bus or parking lot. Unfortunately NOTHING seems to be outside the realm of possibility when it comes to gun violence and mass shootings in this f**king country, so what the f**k would make anyone complain about a little diligence - granted, diligence in the absence of any sort of f**king gun control at all.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 02:59:38 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?

Who is talking about guilt? It's about getting people out safely and making sure no one is carrying a weapon or has a chance to draw one. Just what would you have them do?

As for lining them up,  it depends on where they are doing the search, doesn't it? These mass murderers generally don't attack crowds filled with armed cops. They may already have killed him by then. But again,  what would you have them do.

This is about saving lives, not worrying about hurt feelings.

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 03:17:46 PM
I've been through active shooter drills and that is exactly how you are supposed to respond - walking out with hands up. In that situation the cops have no idea who is a threat and who isn't.

Guilty until proven innocent?

Also, are they not risking lining up civilian targets for a shooter?

Look at the body language of the cops in the first photo. Do they look like they believe they are in immediate danger from one of those in front of them?

Who is talking about guilt? It's about getting people out safely and making sure no one is carrying a weapon or has a chance to draw one. Just what would you have them do?

As for lining them up,  it depends on where they are doing the search, doesn't it? These mass murderers generally don't attack crowds filled with armed cops. They may already have killed him by then. But again,  what would you have them do.

This is about saving lives, not worrying about hurt feelings.

FFS! Isn't the whole problem that people are ALLOWED to carry guns. Why make sure no one is carrying a gun, AFTER a shooting?

As for what would I have them do? Either there is a threat or not. Get them as far away as possible, as quickly as possible, and thus to safety. If they believed there is a shooter, then they simply lined everyone up as cannon fodder. As Last Man said it is just for show.

AZ I am not 'mad to have a go at the cops'. My issue is with gun control and the complete lunacy of it. Everyone is allowed guns, until someone fires one, in which case every ordinary citizen is lined up, with their hands on their heads, until they prove they are not the (already dead) shooter. How do they prove this? By not having a gun? Think about this please instead of throwing 'you are mad to have a go..' at me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 03:47:04 PM

FFS! Isn't the whole problem that people are ALLOWED to carry guns. Why make sure no one is carrying a gun, AFTER a shooting?

Obviously to make sure the threat is gone or contained inside the building, no? And those who are carrying a piece will obviously have to tell the cop and produce their permit. One would assume that further investigation or interviews would be necessary to rule out any participation.


As for what would I have them do? Either there is a threat or not. Get them as far away as possible, as quickly as possible, and thus to safety. If they believed there is a shooter, then they simply lined everyone up as cannon fodder. As Last Man said it is just for show.

You don’t understand that in a real time situation that they might not know if there is still a threat? These mass shooters don’t always work alone.

And how do you know that they were not safe in whatever location these checks were taking place? Where is “safe” in your opinion? Where might they not be at risk to be cannon fodder? Are you just going have them run randomly in all directions just in case there is a sniper up in a tree somewhere? How would you control the situation to ensure that the gunman or gunmen did not escape to kill some more?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 03:51:55 PM
Muppet, in principle I agree with you, but you have a problem with the cops in the States, and are using a photo to have a go at them when they have done nothing wrong in this situation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 04:07:41 PM
Muppet, in principle I agree with you, but you have a problem with the cops in the States, and are using a photo to have a go at them when they have done nothing wrong in this situation.

I am old enough to remember the Dublin & Monaghan bombings. I happened to be in Dublin city centre once as a child when there was a bomb scare on O'Connell Street.

When there was a 'threat' the cops would evacuate the area. This was the appropriate and sensible course of action. Even though they knew there was a very real chance that there were terrorists in the crowd, they didn't line everyone up with their hands over their heads and start searching them.

Why?

In my view it was because the priority was genuinely the safety of ordinary citizens.

In the pictures above, it is my view that the priority is the media.

And that is not blaming the cops. They are simply following orders. The problem is much higher up than those in the photos.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 02, 2015, 04:29:33 PM
I think you are reading too much into it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 04:49:26 PM
I think you are reading too much into it.

Fair enough.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 04:57:51 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 04:59:30 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on October 02, 2015, 05:03:02 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

Thomas is a complete p***k. . . he's the quintessential Republican!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 05:59:13 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

These people are almost as dangerous to society as the shooters.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 02, 2015, 06:13:32 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.

Why the hell would anyone answer in the affirmative that they were Christian after seeing this psychopath mow down others?

Conviction me arse. Do what you have to to live and get back to your family and f**k that deranged judge and executioner.  Any concept of god that would supposedly hold that against someone is fucked up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Boycey on October 02, 2015, 06:19:27 PM
Anyone catch Cal Thomas and Matt Cooper sparring about the latest incident on Today FM there??

Cal was going down the line of "if the security guard had a gun none of this would have happened", got fairly hot and heavy.

These people are almost as dangerous to society as the shooters.

Agreed.

It's worth a listen, Matt really tore into him. It'll be on Today FM website on the listen back function, it took place in 4.30-5.00 segment..
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 06:23:35 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 06:37:07 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.

But what if the armed liberals, are merely forming their own militia, as is guaranteed under the constitution, to protect them from the other armed militia, who swear to protect the constitution from the liberals?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 06:47:06 PM
America is just bonkers, this is just the cops being seen to be mitigating against the risk of another shooter or accomplice, "don't worry people we have the situation under control, panic over". All for show. It astounds me as a sizeable and influential chunk of the population how the American police force are not kicking up merry hell in favour of gun control. Just listened to a local girl interviewed who was looking forward to her 21st birthday and her concealed firearm permit suggesting this wouldnt have happened if more people were carrying :o. Compulsory quick draw training in elementary school is probably the next move. What must life be like for Liberals living there, cheek by jowel with so many mad bastiches who would advocate that this is worth it.


f**k me, that is an ignorant rant, I know a ton of liberals who own weapons, I have a mate that is a top surgeon in Green Bay and we fight all the time about gun control, he is a screaming looney leftie but he owns over forty guns/rifles, love to hunt, trap shoot and let the bullets fly in indoor ranges.

You liberals are brave and fond of blaming conservatives for anything bad that happens, the fact is that gun owners of liberal leanings in the USA number in the tens of millions, probably not as many as conservatives but they are out there and to me they should be taken from the citizenry, the problem lies in the constitution and the peoples right to bear arms and the toothless leaders like Obama who do feck all when they have  the House/ White house/Congress.

But what if the armed liberals, are merely forming their own militia, as is guaranteed under the constitution, to protect them from the other armed militia, who swear to protect the constitution from the liberals?

Arent the "liberals" the ones who want guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 06:47:58 PM
http://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/9437187/obama-guns-terrorism-deaths (http://www.vox.com/2015/10/1/9437187/obama-guns-terrorism-deaths)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 02, 2015, 08:20:47 PM
Anyone hear that looney bin Cal Thomas on The Last Word this evening? The mind boggles
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 02, 2015, 10:24:39 PM
Still in shock about it all this morning. I was down through the area a few months back on a family road trip. I've thought a lot about the conviction of those who were shot and if I would be so bold and brave when asked if I was Christian knowing that a yes would mean execution. I pray for their strength.

Something needs to be done in this country. I think we're passed the point of no return though. There are just too many guns out there and too much access to them. Would a ban or an amnesty even make a difference?

We won't stay too many more years at this rate.

Why the hell would anyone answer in the affirmative that they were Christian after seeing this psychopath mow down others?

Conviction me arse. Do what you have to to live and get back to your family and f**k that deranged judge and executioner.  Any concept of god that would supposedly hold that against someone is fucked up.
You're hard on me now J70. Is thee anything you would go to war for? Any cause bigger than yourself or your own life?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: LeoMc on October 02, 2015, 10:28:16 PM
This is how the police treated those who survived the shooting:






Are you criticising how they handled this?
In the immediate aftermath they cannot be sure if it was a lone gunman or if he had an accomplice. If it later emerged that they had let the primary shooter out without securing the area they would be criticised.

"We arrived to find multiple patients in multiple classrooms. Law enforcement was on scene and had the shooter neutralized," said Douglas County Fire Marshal Ray Shoufler.

They don't line people up in the car park, where a shooter could pick them off, while the shooting is still going on. The shooting was long over when the photos were taken. Also, if the argument for legalising guns, is that everyone should have a gun to save them from bad men, what exactly are the police searching for?
I was not talking of a shooter lined up with a rifle, they are likely to be spotted. I was thinking more of a Dylan Klebold who decided suicide was not the way out and was trying to blend in and escape.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 02, 2015, 11:02:56 PM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 02, 2015, 11:25:52 PM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 02, 2015, 11:32:10 PM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.

Muppet, this is the way they have to handle things in cases like this, if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students, you cannot blame the peelers in any way on this!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 12:25:57 AM
I understand your point Leo, but if someone in the middle of one of those lines had a serious weapon on them, I dare say they would be more likely to try to use it than wait for the cops to find it. Those cops aren't even looking, so he would have a little time to pull it out.

Thus I suggest they are putting people at risk by their actions.

In addition, those poeple are very likely to be very highly stressed and a lethal misunderstanding could happen in an instant. Imagine someone with a low IQ doing something unwise in one of those lines?

IMHO the priority should be to safegaurd the innocent, not to find the guilty.

Muppet, this is the way they have to handle things in cases like this, if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students, you cannot blame the peelers in any way on this!

I am not blaming the peelers. They are just following orders. It is the logic behind the orders I have the problem with.

You said 'if you didnt they would have the shooters walking out with the escaping students'. I can understand this, but this is an argument to catch any potential accomplice, as the priority, even if it risks more deaths. That is what I have the problem with. Let them all escape safely and then track the scumbags down like they almost always do, e.g. Boston.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 03, 2015, 12:32:15 AM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet

You're a veritable bastion of knowledge yourself. We all eagerly await your response to easytiger on the other thread.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: hardstation on October 03, 2015, 12:35:26 AM
I don't follow your logic at all, muppet.

Surely it's better to have any suspect confined to the small space rather than letting them have a run up the local neighbourhood?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 12:48:50 AM
I don't follow your logic at all, muppet.

Surely it's better to have any suspect confined to the small space rather than letting them have a run up the local neighbourhood?

1) But there wasn't a suspect.

2) If there was, they were forcing his hand possibly leading to more loss of life.

3) Any terrified innocent person could have made a mistake that would lead a cop panicking and to one of those other tragedies we so often talk about on here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 03, 2015, 01:48:33 AM
I don't follow your logic at all, muppet.

Surely it's better to have any suspect confined to the small space rather than letting them have a run up the local neighbourhood?

1) But there wasn't a suspect.

2) If there was, they were forcing his hand possibly leading to more loss of life.

3) Any terrified innocent person could have made a mistake that would lead a cop panicking and to one of those other tragedies we so often talk about on here.

1. I'd assume they didn't know how many shooters there were at the time. They only knew they'd killed one.

2. As opposed to the loss of life if they'd let him go free to repeat his deeds?

3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 03, 2015, 08:05:05 AM
Policing seems to be yet another subject area you are an expert in knowing feck all about Muppet

You're a veritable bastion of knowledge yourself. We all eagerly await your response to easytiger on the other thread.
;D ;D
I'll let this one back out to swim, doesnt seem right
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on October 03, 2015, 10:42:16 AM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 03, 2015, 10:48:16 AM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 01:37:32 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 09:53:49 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 09:57:49 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:15:56 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 03, 2015, 10:19:07 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?

FFS! I have said numerous times on this thread that I don't blame them.

My problem is with their superiors. How many times do I have to post that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 03, 2015, 10:26:13 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

Apples and oranges, several things wrong with your analogy, no bombs were involved, second of all, The USA has a different way of handling cases than the Irish do and thirdly, you are only seeing a snapshot on the pictures, do you really think there were no sharpshooters covering the polices backs? That is not the way they do things here.

You are stretching and trying to be offended it seems! The cops were just doing their jobs the way they have been trained to do their jobs, end of.

Em..........

Never mind.

Bomb different to guns?

Same result, but never mind that either.

Treating the survivors like criminals?

Never mind that either.

Although in fairness I accept your point on the snapshot.

FFS catch yourself on, if you dont think there is a difference between a bomb and a gun you need your head examined muppet!

THEY WERE DOING AS THEY WERE TRAINED TO DO Hardly their fault now is it?

FFS! I have said numerous times on this thread that I don't blame them.

My problem is with their superiors. How many times do I have to post that.


"Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire".

See that reads to me like you are blaming the cops on the ground and are inferring that they have no reason to do what they were doing, I simply see cops doing what they do because they were trained to do it that way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 04, 2015, 07:30:57 AM

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 04, 2015, 02:38:20 PM



That chart is frightening.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 05, 2015, 08:48:04 AM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted. A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.  After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

You also ignored my second and third points.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 06, 2015, 07:42:38 AM
An 11-year-old boy in the US state of Tennessee has been held on suspicion of shooting dead an eight-year-old neighbour in a row over a puppy.
The boy has been charged with first-degree murder as a juvenile.
According to police, he shot the girl on Saturday evening with his father's shotgun after she refused to let him see her puppy.
The girl has been identified as McKayla Dyer. Her mother Latasha said that the two children went to the same school.
"He was making fun of her, calling her names, just being mean to her. He quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her," Ms Dyer told WATE-TV.
I want her back in my arms," she said.
McKayla Dyer's mother Latasha said that the boy had previously been bullying her daughter
Neighbour Chastity Arwood told WBIR News that she heard the shot ring out and saw McKayla lying on the grass.
"Trying to comfort her mama and her aunt and her grandma and her grandpa and her sister and her brother was the hardest thing I ever had to do," Ms Arwood said.
The boy is scheduled to appear in court again on 28 October.

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 08:48:06 AM

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.


WOW, im blown away by some of the stats im seeing (no pun intended), but that one just tops them all! 559 children under 11 killed or injured by guns THIS YEAR!! that school shooting the other day was the 142nd school shooting since 2012! 3 years!!! and that's JUST schools were talking about! I would say Syria doesn't even have numbers like that!
ANYONE defending the gun laws in America has (A) some neck!!! and (B) blood on their hands!!
stupid f**ks!

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: DrinkingHarp on October 06, 2015, 08:54:44 AM
Even Priest's are getting into the act!!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25325999/report-new-jersey-priest-allegedly-points-musket-at-8-year-old-cowboys-fan


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 06, 2015, 02:07:59 PM
An 11-year-old boy in the US state of Tennessee has been held on suspicion of shooting dead an eight-year-old neighbour in a row over a puppy.
The boy has been charged with first-degree murder as a juvenile.
According to police, he shot the girl on Saturday evening with his father's shotgun after she refused to let him see her puppy.
The girl has been identified as McKayla Dyer. Her mother Latasha said that the two children went to the same school.
"He was making fun of her, calling her names, just being mean to her. He quit for a while and then all of a sudden yesterday he shot her," Ms Dyer told WATE-TV.
I want her back in my arms," she said.
McKayla Dyer's mother Latasha said that the boy had previously been bullying her daughter
Neighbour Chastity Arwood told WBIR News that she heard the shot ring out and saw McKayla lying on the grass.
"Trying to comfort her mama and her aunt and her grandma and her grandpa and her sister and her brother was the hardest thing I ever had to do," Ms Arwood said.
The boy is scheduled to appear in court again on 28 October.

The Gun Violence Archive, a not-for-profit organisation that compiles data on gun violence in the US, says 559 children aged 11 or under have been killed or injured in the United States in gun violence so far this year.


You see, that child might not be dead if she had been carrying a firearm to protect herself. ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:17:30 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 06, 2015, 03:45:12 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.


But you can't see if there are other cops not in shot, monitoring the people coming out.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 03:51:15 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.


But you can't see if there are other cops not in shot, monitoring the people coming out.

I accept that.

I was responding to the 'you can't pretend to know ANY of that', 'and you know it'.  ;D

(For the avoidance of doubt, that was a joke)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 03:52:01 PM



I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 06, 2015, 03:55:57 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:01:29 PM
I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen. (http://I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.)

According to wiki they are 15th.

And the 14 ahead of them are mainly South or Central American counties. Only Swaziland and South Africa of those ahead of them are not from the Americas afaics.

The above is based on homicide data. For gun related suicides the US appears to be 3rd. But there are all sorts of caveats with the wiki data.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:04:52 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:07:47 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

It was a fb clip I saw on a mates page. I will check and get back you you.

Oh and Puck was right, 90 out of a hundred people own guns, fecking mind blowing stat ( pardon the pun)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:09:00 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 06, 2015, 04:11:21 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

It was a fb clip I saw on a mates page. I will check and get back you you.

Oh and Puck was right, 90 out of a hundred people own guns, fecking mind blowing stat ( pardon the pun)

Stew, I think its suggesting that people own multiple guns, to the point where there are 90 guns in the US for every 100 people. Not that 90 out of 100 people own guns. Maybe in Virginia city.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:12:13 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

https://www.facebook.com/colddeadhands
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 04:24:42 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)

i heard somewhere that the shooter was 20 years old and you can not legally own a gun in america until you are 21.
i stand to be corrected on that but he cant have had 6 of his own guns legally if this is the case. he might have had access alright, that's another issue altogether! as we seen yesterday with that 11 year old!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 06, 2015, 04:27:20 PM
actually i just read another report that said he was 26 so he could well have bought 13 guns for himself, which is ANOTHER issue!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 04:28:30 PM
90% of Americans own guns??

Sounds like bullshit to me.

What's the source Stew?

I think it is more accurately described as 90 guns for every 100 people. Can't be arsed pulling up the source, but I read that this morning.

The shooter last week had 'access' to 13 legally held weapons. All were purchased in the last 3 years. Apparently 6 of them were his own and were found on campus: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/02/oregon-college-shootings-witnesses-recall-horror-as-obama-calls-for-action)

i heard somewhere that the shooter was 20 years old and you can not legally own a gun in america until you are 21.
i stand to be corrected on that but he cant have had 6 of his own guns legally if this is the case. he might have had access alright, that's another issue altogether! as we seen yesterday with that 11 year old!

"All 13 weapons were purchased legally by the shooter or a family member in the last three years, Nunez said,"

The article quotes Nunez, of the of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). As an aside, anyone know why are firearms and explosives lumped in with Alcohol and Tobacco? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.

Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
Quote
3. Correct, hence they make them stand in a line with their hands above their heads and not run amok where they could startle a trigger happy copper.

This has to be the saddest thing really.

Sadder than the 9 students who died?  Think you're over-egging it a little.  I'm no fan of the cops in America but in that situation, where there may or not be a guy with a gun running around shooting people indiscriminately, I might be inclined to keep my hand on the holster too.

Look at the photo. None of them have their hands on the holster. None of them seem remotely concerned that anyone in front of them is a mass-killer about to open fire.

It is all for show. And what it shows is how highly they value innocent citizens who have just been through a massively traumatic event and may be relatives or friends of the deceased.

Could you imagine, after the Omagh bomb, if the Brits rounded up everyone within a 1 mile radius of the bomb and had them put their hands over their heads until they had all been searched? Would you consider that appropriate policing?

You can't pretend to know any of that from the photo you posted.

What?
I can see that their hands are not on their holsters.
I can see that they are not looking at the people they have lined up in front of them.
I can see that if a killer is standing right in from of them, and made a move, that they wouldn't see it immediately.

Quote
A bombing incident (like the ones you describe) are a totally different thing and you know it.

Ah the old 'and you know it' line. Randomly killing innocent people is obviously the common theme. The choice of weapon is hardly a major factor, and you know it!  :D

Quote
After a bombing it is highly unlikely that there is a second bomber running around with a device in their pocket ready to bomb people at random.  Your analogy is way off.

Really? After a shooting, going by most of the other shootings, it would also appear highly unlikely that there is a 2nd shooter etc, etc, as well. Way off my arse. Whether you kill innocent people with a gun or a bomb it hardly matters. In fact with a bombing it is probably more likely that there is more than one person involved, at the very least in the planning of the bomb.

My issue is with the way they treat the survivors. For me there is something hideous about surviving a mass-shooting and then being lined up with your hands over your head, because police bosses need to be seen to be in control.

Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 06, 2015, 04:48:13 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

I'd rather let intruders take the TV than have a gun battle in a confined space with the family about
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.

Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.

Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:42:51 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2015, 05:55:21 PM
Even Priest's are getting into the act!!

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25325999/report-new-jersey-priest-allegedly-points-musket-at-8-year-old-cowboys-fan (http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25325999/report-new-jersey-priest-allegedly-points-musket-at-8-year-old-cowboys-fan)

https://youtu.be/NAQy8v0d_qo
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?

On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents.  All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 06, 2015, 07:55:58 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 08:18:48 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?

Treat them as if they had just survived a mass shooting. Many of these people would need counselling, or to make contact with their loved ones to tell them they were fine, or to check on loved ones to see if they were ok. We can't tell too much from a couple of photos, I accept that, but to be all lined up with your hands on your head is adding insult to injury for me.

The narrative always seems to be about 'The Bad Guy'. The NRA always rant about 'the bad guy with a gun'. Even when he is already dead it seems they prioritise looking for another bad guy with a gun, rather than helping survivors. Even the examples of cops shooting unarmed men can arguably be put down to cops making poor decisions, under pressure, because of this constant fear of the bad guy with a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 06, 2015, 08:51:58 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 09:08:21 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.

All of that is fine and understandable from the schools point of view.

But where is the discourse on the killers and their weapons from the wider community? For example regarding weapons, you can have your deodorant confiscated in an airport, because of an attack 14 years ago, but you can own 6 guns and bring them on campus, because it is a civil right.

And then there are the killers. Are there any psychologists here (or similar) that can explain, even to a small degree, what possesses people to take a gun into a school and fire at random targets? Is there a profile that they usually confirm to, or is it just completely random?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 06, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 06, 2015, 11:21:05 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 07, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?

Well the problem is, you cant legislate for stupidity.  Who would give a gun (of any description) to someone suffering from mental problems? 

Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

The question is....where does someones RIGHT to own a gun end? 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 07, 2015, 07:03:55 AM

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.

Maybe 11th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:11:07 AM
Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

That's handy, if the gunman only injures you.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 07, 2015, 09:17:14 AM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 11:34:13 AM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Franko on October 07, 2015, 01:53:12 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that either of those first two lines are 'insults'.

The reason AZ didn't repeat it is because you basically agreed with him a couple of posts later.

I engaged with you initially by countering the three points you made initially (post #311) which you still haven't answered.  I don't understand how that can be seen as me not arguing the case?

As for your claim, you said that it was a completely pointless exercise and had they looked at other such events in the past, they would have realised this.  I took this to mean that if they had looked at past events, they would have seen that it was pointless, and may have handled the situation differently.  Did you mean something else?  I also asked you to point out these events, which you didn't do.

Anyway, this is going nowhere.  I think the police handled the situation fine. A few others pointed out that this is part of their training and part of protocols in the USA in the aftermath of this type of event (crazy that this is necessary).  You disagree.  That's fine.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 07, 2015, 02:49:59 PM

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.

Maybe 11th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Maybe 111th, we both used wiki so who knows.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 02:52:10 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.

"Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always."
"you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?"
"I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else."

I have my opinions, you have yours. You don't argue yours, you simply insult mine and call them prejudices. Anyone else who disagreed with me simply discussed the points. AZ suggested I was merely having a go at the cops. He hasn't mentioned it since. You haven't stopped mentioning it. There is a difference.

You also referred to a claim I am supposed to have made.

Where did I make that claim?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that either of those first two lines are 'insults'.

The reason AZ didn't repeat it is because you basically agreed with him a couple of posts later.

I engaged with you initially by countering the three points you made initially (post #311) which you still haven't answered.  I don't understand how that can be seen as me not arguing the case?

As for your claim, you said that it was a completely pointless exercise and had they looked at other such events in the past, they would have realised this.  I took this to mean that if they had looked at past events, they would have seen that it was pointless, and may have handled the situation differently.  Did you mean something else?  I also asked you to point out these events, which you didn't do.

Anyway, this is going nowhere.  I think the police handled the situation fine. A few others pointed out that this is part of their training and part of protocols in the USA in the aftermath of this type of event (crazy that this is necessary).  You disagree.  That's fine.

I can leave it there too.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 07, 2015, 03:04:05 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?

Well the problem is, you cant legislate for stupidity.  Who would give a gun (of any description) to someone suffering from mental problems? 

Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

The question is....where does someones RIGHT to own a gun end?

It used to end with assault weapons until the NRA-owned congress allowed the ban to lapse.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:03:11 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:24:08 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
No I'm saying that laws take time to be introduced. So in the waiting period, people will rush to buy guns to avoid any impending control laws.  Comparing the smoking ban to gun control shows little to know understanding of the american people. 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:32:11 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.
In fairness there are rules in America in different states. Out here in WA I just needed a drivers license to get a gun - I had a small bit of paperwork to fill out because I'm not a US Citizen but aside from that it was relatively easy. Back in NJ I had a much longer wait for a permit. But you're right none of the same checks there would be in the North of Ireland.  If they upped the restrictions in all the states it would solve some of the problems in the long term. But any hint of gun reform or gun control coming and everyone and their granny is out stocking up on guns.

Why is this? What is the mentality behind that?? If I read you right, you are saying that if gun control is introduced, there will be millions who deliberately and publicly break the law.

In Ireland we introduced the smoking ban in pubs and, despite predictions of widespread disobedience, it worked almost right away.
No I'm saying that laws take time to be introduced. So in the waiting period, people will rush to buy guns to avoid any impending control laws.  Comparing the smoking ban to gun control shows little to know understanding of the american people.

Ah ffs.

I was obviously asking you to clarify what you meant.

I will try again.

Presumably gun controls will limit the ability to buy and own guns?

Are you saying that people will deliberately ignore this?


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:41:34 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:46:15 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 05:49:16 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 05:53:53 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 06:01:50 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 06:13:01 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Amnesty yes. That would be the way to go, but I don't see enough Americans going for it.
Local Law Enforcement - Why not? If you don't register your weapons and are found to be in breach then you face prosecution. Shouldn't be a problem for decent citizens - which is the vast, vast majority.

'Would the take guns out of the hands of criminals?' - That isn't the problem though. The easy access to guns is the difference between 'crazy people' in the US and crazy people in many other countries. Remove the easy access to gun and they might simply remain crazy but otherwise harmless people.

Regarding Mercer, it was 13 guns in his house and 6 for himself.

If you think 6 guns in a house isn't a lot, then we are on different planets altogether. Why the arsenal? If every house in your city had that, I would guess that the odds that a 'crazy person' will have easy access shortens considerably.

And btw don't get me wrong about guns. I used to go to a firing range when in the West Coast and thoroughly enjoyed it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 07, 2015, 06:46:54 PM
An old friend of mine is a newly retired former ATF Special Agent in Charge. His last posts before retirement were Boston, NJ, and NYC, and he was heavily involved in the aftermath of the Newtown massacre. He told me last night that when things didn't change (in relation to gun control) after Newtown, that is when he lost hope that they would.

A start for me would be tidying up the second hand gun market. Currently there are numerous states where I can sell my gun to my buddy with no background check, no additional information required. I can't do that with a car - why can I do it with a gun?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 06:59:31 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on October 07, 2015, 07:03:20 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 07, 2015, 07:15:17 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

 ;D this is true i guess!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on October 07, 2015, 07:18:37 PM
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!

Opening a bank account is actually quite a pain nowadays, with id, proof of address etc, probably more so than getting a gun.

It might seem obvious that the thing to do is to impose more restrictions on buying a gun, of the type that go along with opening a bank account or buying a car, but the problem is that there is no constitutionally enshrined guarantee of car or bank account ownership.  That there is such a guarantee for gun ownership can only be changed with a retraction of a constitutional amendment (the second amendment), and there has only ever been one of those in the history of the US.   
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on October 07, 2015, 07:20:26 PM
I'm not sure how you prevent the mentally unstable from getting guns either, given their constitutional right.  After all, blind people can have guns too:

lhttp://www.cnn.com/2013/09/08/us/gun-permits-blind/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/08/us/gun-permits-blind/index.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 07:23:40 PM
No I am not. I am saying in the event gun control comes into force - people will stock up in advance. Much like if alcohol was going to be banned a month from now you would be stocking up.

There needs to be a smart action plan here that takes into account who you're dealing with.  There is no short term solution. The solution is one where any benefits will not be realized for at least a decade or two I believe

You are going to have to help me out here.

Do you think that gun controls will limit ownership or simply future sales of weapons?
Future sale of weapons. Based on the people on the ground, thats all it will do.  The results of which will not be realized for decades.

That isn't really gun control at all. Given the amount of guns currently in circulation. It is more like a compromise that gun-owners would agree to. But as you say, it wouldn't be remotely effective for decades.

Gun control, for me, would have to introduce limits on ownership as well. Did Mercer's family need 13 guns? Did Mercer really need 6? Does anyone need 6 guns? What good would gun control be if it doesn't address these questions?

That is why I was asking would people stock up, knowing they were breaking the (hypothetical) new gun control laws?

Are you proposing then that people hand over guns in some kind of amnesty? Or that people have to register their guns and have local law enforcement enforce that with home checks etc..? Would either of those really work? Would they take the guns out of the hands of criminals? Crazy people?
I don't believe they would - knowing what it's actually like here.

6 guns in a household of 4 people isn't a lot. Right now I have two rifles a hand gun, a cross bow and a compound bow. My kids are not old enough to hunt yet but when they are I will allow them air rifles to start. How do you put a limit on that?

Like I said early on -we're passed the point of no return with guns in america. there are too many. the people are too far gone. it is what it is unfortunately.

Iceman, i openly admit, i know F all about guns and dont hunt. however, the 'gun-totin' americans are allowed go in and buy machine guns and god knows what else (as i said my knowledge of guns is poor!) that are not really hunting guns!!

there are laws that can come into effect and restrict who can buy,and what they can buy, and how guns are stored. that would make things a bit safer almost straight away, the part of all this that is NOT a quick fix is the mentality of a lot of americans.
this thing of, "oh come on in and ill show you my collection of guns, ive got 37 guns, from antiques to top of the range almost military issue guns, and everything in between!",  basically its a pissing contest to see who has the most spectacular gun or who has the most lethal gun or the most amount of guns. its also this mentality of "oh if i have a gun in the house i am immediately safer." which is obviously not the case!! even the police are gun crazy! if a "bad guy" runs or disobeys etc, they would be pulling their guns and in some cases, shooting people dead!
it makes me feel proud that our police force here dont carry guns, apart from detectives etc. i hope it never has to change.
but the mentality issue is the biggest one. i think the best hope for changing that is a good education on the issue from a young age.
have many of you seen Michael Moores documentary about guns in america 'Bowling for Columbine'?? its very good.
1 of the first scenes in it is where Michael takes a bank up on an offer they are running, "open an account with us today and receive a free shotgun"!!  ::) worth a watch!
I don't know a lot about guns. I know enough to be dangerous (pardon the pun). I enjoy shooting, I enjoy hunting. I have gone to the range and shot off a whole host of different fully automatic and semi automatic assault rifles (he is a SWAT team chief and has unlimited ammo and lots of weapons). It was a real blast (pardon the pun again). 
You are right about the mentality - it can be a pissing contest. But a lot of Americans believe they need to protect themselves and their family from either the criminal or from a corrupt government.  In the case of the criminal I know a man here who has a concealed carry permit and will openly tell you he is carrying 2-3 guns all the time. Getting into the why he does that might require a whole thread.  In the case of protecting themselves against a corrupt government this falls under the category of doomsday prepp'ers, old colonial America and conspiracy theory heaven.

@ Muppet - hunting ans shooting is an activity. A household of 6 mad in to hurling would hardly only have 6 hurls about the place? I understand hurling isn't intended to kill but just trying to draw an analogy.  I know lots of people in the North who legally hold 4-6 guns and I'm talking 2 person families and only the husband shoots.

Finbar is right though - the problem is the mentality.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 08:34:04 PM
Guns for hunting I can empathise with.
Guns in a club or a firing range I have no problem with at all.

Guns for self-defence is madness though. I don't have figures for the US (anyone?) but I suspect that most criminals tend to shoot mainly other criminals. Certainly that is the case in Ireland. It is undesirable, but let's face it, one dead criminal is one less criminal.

Innocent deaths are obviously a different thing altogether. The two kids, shot by other kids, in the US in the last few days alone shows the dangers of having guns easily available. It is difficult to see how guns for self-defence, which by definition must have quick access (who knows when you will need it right?) can also be safely put out of reach of kids and other who might mis-use them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 08:45:12 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on October 07, 2015, 08:47:43 PM
Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 07, 2015, 08:50:38 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

I have a hurl. That is about it.

There are those who would say I have absolutely no idea how to use it.  :D
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:04:58 PM
Iceman, what sort of a crew did you run with?
i fell in with a few bad crowds in my time ha all gentlemen of the highest
South Derry was my stomping ground for a long time - Draperstown and Maghera mostly. And I worked in a few notorious bars in my home town
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 07, 2015, 09:07:15 PM
bedside access fingerprint locker that only opens for me or the mrs

do you not have any weapons at all mupper? a hurl in the boot of the car? a cosh? a tire knocker? most of the lads I knew around home would have something handy always close by...

Jez Ice your starting to develope an american culture, guns in a bedside locker is it that dangerous.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:11:39 PM
what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Bazil Douglas on October 07, 2015, 09:27:31 PM
what good would it be in a cupboard downstairs or in a safe in the garage...hold on there mr home invader while I run downstairs and get the gun

Yeah that's what I mean is it that dangerous. couldnt be any worse than south Derry, some of those Maghera boys were a bad crew. LOL
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 09:28:57 PM
Just out of curiosity, and this isn't a loaded question, but have you ever been robbed?

How many run of the mill, gun carrying thugs are going to persist in attempting to rob homes with good solid locks on the doors and windows and an alarm system?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 09:54:16 PM
Just out of curiosity, and this isn't a loaded question, but have you ever been robbed?

How many run of the mill, gun carrying thugs are going to persist in attempting to rob homes with good solid locks on the doors and windows and an alarm system?
I haven't no - but I have a wife and 4 kids and live in a fairly remote area where nut jobs with a gun may or may not decide to burglarize some day.
Given the same facts would you take the chance or have something there and be ready should anyone come in to your house?
I store it correctly and safely. I'm trained on how to use it tactically. I've never needed to even reach for it. I take it out for the range and if the kids ask to see it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 07, 2015, 10:16:31 PM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on October 07, 2015, 10:19:13 PM
if your that paranoid about getting robbed and the need for a number of guns round the house, maybe its time to come home or set up in a safer country where they not gun mad.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 07, 2015, 11:19:44 PM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?

I've been taught by a couple different people to address the kids curiosity. By hiding it, locking it away and making a treasure of it and never showing it them or explaining its nature it becomes even more appealing.  If they try some way or other to get to it themselves and are for some crazy reason successful then God knows what happens. This way they know what it is, how it looks, how it feels and what its for. I agree it is the safer approach.

Again I don't have an arsenal of guns here. A couple of rifles for hunting and a hand gun for home defense. I thankfully may never need it but you never know. There was more rifles about the home place when I lived in Ireland. I live in a realtively safe and quiet area where there has not been any crime for a long time. But i see no harm in being ready.
I continue to train in MMA, not because I have to compete or want to pick a fight but I enjoy it and if anything happens then I'll be better equipped to handle it than not. Does that make sense?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 06:31:07 AM
It does but I don't necessarily agree with it. On one hand you say you live in quite a remote area, presumably implying a sense of exposure and vulnerability. On the other you live in a safe area with no crime and keep your gun "just in case".

It's that "just in case" mentality I can't really come to grips with.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM
On the one hand I get what Iceman is talking about, there is alot of crazies in America, alot of down and outs, drug addiction, wealth disparity, gangs etc. All living side by side with super wealthy in a country where your status (way more so than anywhere else I've been to) is measured by your wealth. Robberies and burglaries are gonna happen and alot of those crazies I mentioned above have guns.

On the other hand I dont think I would ever have a gun about the house, certainly not a handgun, just dont think it would be that useful in that scenario, and i dont want the constant worry of kids finding one. But perhaps more to the point I want to believe that I live in a place that is civilised enough that I dont need to protect my family with a lethal weapon.

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have. Another thing is people in Ireland probably dont understand how remote you can be in America when living in the countryside, add on to that, that people who tend to go out to the woods want to live pretty solitary lives (in the West at least) so community is not the same as Ireland in the country, that community is a vital safety barrier against crime.

All in all, the guns are a major problem and should be sorted out, but unlikely to be for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: tyssam5 on October 08, 2015, 09:13:12 AM
I honestly don't know how I'd prepare in the same circumstances but I imagine I'd avoid guns altogether. Security lights, an alarm system and good quality windows and doors *should* be enough to deter any petty criminals out on the hunt for a TV or whatever else they can get from what would likely be a suburban, middle class home.

Is the fear mindset a massive factor more so in the States then other countries? If someone is looking to burgle me, they're highly unlikely to opportunistically help themselves to a few murders while they're at it. If I was to encounter armed burglars, the last thing I think I'd want to do with family in the house is start a firefight.

I'm perturbed particularly by your last comment. Surely the mere presence of the guns in the house is a source of fascination for the kids? Again, not loading the question, but when they ask to see the guns, why oblige rather than tell them something along the lines of "no, that's only for Daddy"?

I live in the next state down and I hardly ever even lock the door of the house.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: imtommygunn on October 08, 2015, 09:18:55 AM
if your that paranoid about getting robbed and the need for a number of guns round the house, maybe its time to come home or set up in a safer country where they not gun mad.

Precisely. It's an illustration that everything has gone too far. Everyone needs a gun because everyone else might have a gun. I don't know how they could ever go back from that situation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 09:26:21 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

Point of order, the said oxygen thieves are Dubs, they came down the motorway to rob in South Tipperary.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 09:42:22 AM
You'd love to be given ten minutes in an interrogation room without any cameras with every one of that shower. Utter scum.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet. 



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 10:19:12 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

Point of order, the said oxygen thieves are Dubs, they came down the motorway to rob in South Tipperary.

FYI i meant no offence to Tipp folk, just that it took place in Tipp!  :)


Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet. 




by "Icemans position", i meant, if you have a gun and someone broke in. i kind of agree, no guns in the house is better but, if you are a keen hunter and you have guns and have them stored properly then, no problem, happy hunting!
i was just referring to a comment about the police reacting faster than anything Iceman could do.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:09:26 PM
I'm not vehemently anti guns. I'm vehemently anyone else owning one :)

Nah, I lived over there, never wanted one, nor went about getting one. And this was Arizona!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:18:51 PM
At the centre of this debate we seem to have, among others, two key arguments:

1) Guns at home risk shootings at home, e.g. young children find the gun.

2) I need a gun because of the threat of burglary or intruders.

Iceman has shown that he has taken serious measures to safeguard against 1) above that probably go well beyond what most people in the US do, which is fair enough.

But can you successfully argue that you can drastically reduce the risk of 1) but not be able to reduce the risk of 2)? The gun is surely a last resort against intruders, but why do many Americans feel the need to jump to the last resort on 2), without apparently considering the last resort on 1) - which for me is getting rid of the gun at home?

Is it that the risk of the guns falling into the wrong hands or used inappropriately is underestimated, while the risk of intruders causing serious harm is overestimated? Location also probably has a role to play in weighing up this dilemma.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:37:21 PM
The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?

Good question. In this case pulling a gun and not using it could be disastrous. If the 'bad guy' has a gun he will almost definitely shoot and if he doesn't, he will simply take yours.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 03:43:14 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:53:37 PM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 08, 2015, 03:56:06 PM
This is why I was asking about the fear element. Previously you spoke of burglary, now you talk of someone coming for your family.

How much crime is people opportunistically breaking into houses in search of potential victims to rape or murder? Very, very little I imagine.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on October 08, 2015, 03:59:01 PM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?

That's where I struggle. . . what have you done on someone that they're going to kidnap your family? Sick people exist throughout the world but I don't have a constant fear of someone coming for my wife or daughter. Is it NRA/FOX NEWS propaganda that puts this fear into people in America?

I'm not having a go Iceman but if you have the guns locked away in a bedside cabinet how are you quickly going to get to that when a burglar jumps through the window?!

Hunting fair enough not that I agree with it but you need a gun for it and that's fair enough, the 'protection' thing I don't get unless you have some serious cash around the place I can't see this being a real reason to own a gun. None of this explains the assault rifles/ak's all over the country!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:04:31 PM
Add in the fact that 99% of us would be complete novices in a shootout.

Even well-trained cops can make a poor decision under extreme duress. What hope would we have of getting any crucial decisions right in that scenario?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

Interesting parallel though. If the father had a gun, and started shooting or trying to threaten to shoot, I wonder would the outcome have been much more tragic?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:12:45 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

They did nothing, according to the article the scumbags had duff info.

However if the family had pulled a gun, either some of the criminals, or some of the family would be now dead. It would be hard to calculate the odds either way, but arguably the family members would have been in more danger with a gun present.

Shooting the 'bad 'guy' seem to be a massively powerful narrative in the US, but at what risk to loved ones?

Edit: Just saw Az's post which made much the same point.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:14:59 PM
i stand to be corrected but i think the father would have been within his rights to blow the heads off these f**kers.
the family would probably end up being even more traumatized from that though...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 04:15:05 PM
The self defence plank is central to the gun rights argument - here's a couple of articles

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjABahUKEwjrpbu6krPIAhXIVRQKHQHhAGU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fbw%2Farticles%2F2012-12-27%2Fhow-often-do-we-use-guns-in-self-defense&usg=AFQjCNFLHQcokNf-9cpZNDGcUFkcaRDJWg

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

Myself, I think that statistically someone like Iceman is far less likely than he thinks to actually encounter violent crime within his home - however, paradoxically, the availability and usage of firearms makes the statistically unusual occurrences of such crimes more lethal than they would be in other nations - thus giving guys like Iceman plenty to worry about it.

Just on another point about amnesty not working - they certainly didn't think it was going to work in Australia, but is succeeded beyond their most optimistic estimations.

This is still the funniest take I've seen on a very grim subject

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk5MW28lgaNa7L

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 04:17:14 PM
i stand to be corrected but i think the father would have been within his rights to blow the heads off these f**kers.
the family would probably end up being even more traumatized from that though...

He would have, and I'd have no sympathy, but if they had guns too, or managed to wrestle it off him (there were 7 of them I think), what are the chances there'd have been at least some of the family killed?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 04:18:08 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/ (http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/01/us/kentucky-accidential-shooting/)

2 years ago but still horrific.

The shooting that took the life of Caroline Sparks in southern Kentucky has been ruled an accident, Kentucky State Police Trooper Billy Gregory said.

A Kentucky mother stepped outside of her home just for a few minutes, but it was long enough for her 5-year-old son to accidentally shoot and kill his 2-year-old sister with the .22-caliber rifle he got for his birthday, state officials said.

"It's just one of those nightmares," he said, "a quick thing that happens when you turn your back."

Young children in the area are often introduced to guns at an early age, Gregory said.

"In this part of the country, it's not uncommon for a 5-year-old to have a gun or for a parent to pass one down to their kid," he said.

Her family kept the Crickett rifle in what they considered to be a safe spot, Cumberland County Coroner Gary White told the CNN affiliate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 04:33:01 PM
I've been through some crazy times in America, brought on by natural disasters. Hurricane Irene and hurricane Sandy, 1 mile from the water in NJ. We had no power, there was no food deliveries in to the shops, there was hardly any petrol. I've seen with my eyes what becomes of people when this happens. Lining up for petrol at the petrol station there were a few fist fights, after a week one man was shot.  People get desperate. No food, no petrol for transport or power for a generator, everything runs off of electricity. People go mad. These said mad people have guns.  That's the extreme end of the equation I know.
The other side is the burglary. I have secured windows and doors downstairs. There is no way to get to the upstairs windows unless they are ninjas. By the time someone gets in to the house I will have time to grab the gun - it's literally a 5 second grab and already loaded.  Again I see the chances of any of this happening to be very slim - but you never know.

I agree and take responsibility that I add to the statistics and in some way may increase the chance of accidents but I try hard to secure the weapon, make sure my kids understand what it is and I know how to use it properly.  My Mrs' Dad is a retired federal sergeant, her brother is a sergeant and SWAT team chief.  I've spent enough time with both of them to weigh up the risks.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 05:00:01 PM
I've been through some crazy times in America, brought on by natural disasters. Hurricane Irene and hurricane Sandy, 1 mile from the water in NJ. We had no power, there was no food deliveries in to the shops, there was hardly any petrol. I've seen with my eyes what becomes of people when this happens. Lining up for petrol at the petrol station there were a few fist fights, after a week one man was shot.  People get desperate. No food, no petrol for transport or power for a generator, everything runs off of electricity. People go mad. These said mad people have guns.  That's the extreme end of the equation I know.
The other side is the burglary. I have secured windows and doors downstairs. There is no way to get to the upstairs windows unless they are ninjas. By the time someone gets in to the house I will have time to grab the gun - it's literally a 5 second grab and already loaded.  Again I see the chances of any of this happening to be very slim - but you never know.

I agree and take responsibility that I add to the statistics and in some way may increase the chance of accidents but I try hard to secure the weapon, make sure my kids understand what it is and I know how to use it properly.  My Mrs' Dad is a retired federal sergeant, her brother is a sergeant and SWAT team chief.  I've spent enough time with both of them to weigh up the risks.

Would taking the guns off them not make sense then?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 05:23:31 PM
of course it would - but like I said we are passed the point of no return over here. How do you get the guns off them?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 05:45:02 PM
i think the first move you make is to put an amnesty in place, i honestly think that you'd be surprised by the results. Remember that public opinion is consistently ahead of political parties on this issue, so I think whoever is doing the reforming needs to speak directly to the citizens.

It has to be one step at a time, a process of normalization. Pick the low hanging fruit first - background checks excluding convicted felons, people with a history of mental illness, domestic abusers. Then mandatory waiting periods, tighten up the second hand gun market and regulate gun fairs. I don't think the much trumpeted "law abiding gun owner" could have much of a problem with any of the above.

Above all, keep it out of the national political arena - as long as the NRA can fan fears of a possible 2nd Amendment repeal, then the Republicans will vote en bloc to stymie any gun control. Obama needs to exhaust the executive actions he can take, make sure that all existing federal laws are rigorously enforced, and then engage on a state by state basis, especially with Republican governors in states where mass shootings have occurred.

Saying that it won't change precludes all possibility of change. I don't think the Australian model is going to work for the US - the question is figuring out a US model that will.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 08, 2015, 06:22:58 PM
i think the first move you make is to put an amnesty in place, i honestly think that you'd be surprised by the results. Remember that public opinion is consistently ahead of political parties on this issue, so I think whoever is doing the reforming needs to speak directly to the citizens.

It has to be one step at a time, a process of normalization. Pick the low hanging fruit first - background checks excluding convicted felons, people with a history of mental illness, domestic abusers. Then mandatory waiting periods, tighten up the second hand gun market and regulate gun fairs. I don't think the much trumpeted "law abiding gun owner" could have much of a problem with any of the above.

Above all, keep it out of the national political arena - as long as the NRA can fan fears of a possible 2nd Amendment repeal, then the Republicans will vote en bloc to stymie any gun control. Obama needs to exhaust the executive actions he can take, make sure that all existing federal laws are rigorously enforced, and then engage on a state by state basis, especially with Republican governors in states where mass shootings have occurred.

Saying that it won't change precludes all possibility of change. I don't think the Australian model is going to work for the US - the question is figuring out a US model that will.

The NRA are one of the strongest organizations on the planet, they have tremendous support across the country and they own the Politicans.

Guns will never be taken off the people, they wouldn't let it happen.

Amnesty sounds good but I know a fair few gun owners and they are never for letting their weapons go and site the constitution etc.

I have to laugh at that Dog Clinton, she say's she is going to get the guns off the streets but has no clue as how to go about it, she is as bad a Trump!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 06:39:17 PM
the same sentiments were articulated in Australia Stew, but they were very surprised with the response. I don't think the two countries are directly comparable, but you'll never know until you try.

Perhaps the most depressing part of this for outsiders looking in is the almost nihilistic view of all participants - "cold dead hands" from the NRA et al and "they'll never give them up" from anyone else. That cycle has to be broken - it suits only the NRA and it completely ignores the fact that the general public are in favour of reform.

The first thing you could do is stress the point of an amnesty - it is voluntary. Steer all rhetoric away from repeal or any mention of seizures, small steps at first. I don't think an Australian"Big Bang" all at once approach will work.

BTW "that Dog Clinton??!!" What's that all about?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 08, 2015, 06:40:56 PM
As for for Clinton's gun credentials, her husband did pass the last major reform of the gun laws - The Brady Bill - though is has since lapsed, as far as I know?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 08, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
Ben Carson: "I never saw a body with bullet holes that was more devastating than taking the right to arm ourselves away."

Mike Huckabee: "We have not so much a gun problem; we have a problem with sin and evil. This is an evil thing, when people kill another person."

Bobby Jindal: "This killer's father is now lecturing us on the need for gun control and he says he has no idea how or where his son got the guns… You know why he doesn't know? Because he is not, and has never been in his son's life. He's a complete failure as a father, he should be embarrassed to even show his face in public. He's the problem here."

Jeb Bush: "We're in a difficult time in our country, and I don't think more government is necessarily the answer to this. I think we need to re-connect ourselves with everybody else."

John Kasich: "You can strip all the guns away but the people who are going to commit crimes or have problems are always going to have the guns and more and more people feel like I'd like to be able to protect myself."

Hillary Clinton: "What is wrong with us, that we can't stand up to the NRA and the gun lobby, and the gun manufacturers they represent? You know, this is not just tragic. We don't just need to pray for people. We need to act, and we need to build a movement.

Bernie Sanders: "I don't know that anybody knows what the magic solution is. What we do know is the current solution is not tenable, it is clearly not working… You got a whole lot of states in this country where people want virtually no gun control at all. And if we are going to have some success, we are going to have to start talking to each other."

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JimStynes on October 08, 2015, 08:33:09 PM
Not reading back through the thread so can someone summarise it. Do people generally agree that America should have tighter gun controls or are there some people playing the 'We need more guns to protect ourselves' card?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 09, 2015, 12:48:08 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)






Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Puckoon on October 09, 2015, 12:55:12 AM
http://smartgunlaws.org/massachusetts-state-law-summary/ (http://smartgunlaws.org/massachusetts-state-law-summary/)

http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-private-sales-of-guns/page/2/ (http://smartgunlaws.org/category/state-private-sales-of-guns/page/2/)

MA has some of the more stringent gun laws (CA aside) in the USA, which makes it unsurprising at its lower levels of homocides (for white people  :o ).
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 09, 2015, 01:08:48 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)

Remember Children, Mass is a very liberal State, card carrying republicans they are not!
 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 09, 2015, 01:23:10 AM
http://www.mass.gov/eohhs/docs/dph/injury-surveillance/violentdeaths/homicide-bulletin-2009.pdf


Theres are huge disparities in the homicide rate depending on Race, Geography and Economics.

In Massachusetts the homicide rate for a white person was 1.1 per 100,000.  (2005-2009)

Ireland homicide rate for calendar year 2012 was actually higher 1.2 per 100,000

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/rate-of-homicide-among-highest-in-europe-265006.html


Currently in Massachusetts there are 355,000 people who are legally permitted to own a firearm

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2015/04/20/gun-laws-tightened-mass-number-permits-spiked/KDbdE52Cvdf4xNfIL4r0hN/story.html

So the law abiding "gun mad yanks" in Massachusetts actually have a lower homicide rate than in Ireland where guns are effectively prohibited

(Most murders in the Africann American community occur in inner city no go areas where white people would and should never set foot in. So while tragic, these murders really have little bearing on the day to day danger faced by the greater population)

Remember Children, Mass is a very liberal State, card carrying republicans they are not!

I'd hazard a guess that the majority of permit holders are Republicans....at least most of the permit holders I know are.

And last November MA elected a Republican governor.....so while still overwhelmingly Blue.....there are tons of Republicans and Independents here

http://ivn.us/2014/10/30/how-mass-republican-charlie-baker-is-winning-with-independent-voters/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 09, 2015, 07:57:50 AM
Not reading back through the thread so can someone summarise it. Do people generally agree that America should have tighter gun controls or are there some people playing the 'We need more guns to protect ourselves' card?

Everyone pretty much agrees that there is too many guns but how to get them off the streets is the discussion.

Iceman keeps one under the pillow, used to run with a dodgy crowd and would hand you yer arse in the Octagon.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:09:39 AM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.


A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: magpie seanie on October 09, 2015, 10:13:11 AM
I like the amnesty idea. I'd propose the following:

Amnesty period where any/all guns must be registered. Unregistered guns found after amnesty = minimum 20 years in jail. If you don't register your gun you are basically admitting you're up to no good so jail them before they kill someone.

Then I'd try to cut off the supply.

Guns have no place in society, especially when they make people like me think mental thoughts like I've mentioned above.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 09, 2015, 10:40:34 AM
I find this concept of defending the right to an arsenal, because of the risk of corrupt government, to be complete insanity.

One man's corruption is another man's living. That is not to defend corruption, just to point out that it is rarely easily defined or absolute.

No matter how bad the politicians in the US might be, they can be voted out, unlike for example Putin. Part of democracy is the stupidity of the electorate. But they have a right right to be stupid and vote as they wish. Allowing these people the right to stock up on weapons just in case they are unhappy with their politicians, is madness in my opinion.

Another aspect that got me thinking was the plethora of brilliant, but violent ,TV series we all watch from the US. For us in Ireland they are fantasy. But if you watched, for example, The Killing and lived in Seattle, or Dexter and lived in Miami, or Breaking Bad and lived in Albuquerque, the violence might look far more real, as in closer to home and affect the more impressionable. Is this a possible cause of 'the fear' that others have referred to above?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 03:32:52 PM
what if you watched Love/hate and lived in Dublin?

I think the Amnesty to register guns is a great idea. Harsh penalties would help too.  The thing to consider though is local law enforcement on a state by state basis. Some would choose not to enforce.
Like in California they very lenient towards illegal immigrants. Any illegals who are arrested on petty crimes or misdemeanors should be deported, but they are not, the CA police choose not to enforce it.  I wonder how they would get the state by state police to enforce such laws. I know a lot of cops and they have a load of guns themselves - probably one they should never have.

Muppet you are right - the whole corrupt government thing is crazy. But these are the cards you have to deal with. Pointing out they are shit doesn't win the hand.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 09, 2015, 03:49:48 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 09, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.


A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

no need to be a smart hole

Yes I have kids and wouldn't entertain the notion of having a gun, either here or anywhere for that matter. You say you are anti-guns, why would you have one if you lived state side?  Makes zero sense to me
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 09, 2015, 03:54:46 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.


A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

Surely that's even more reason not to have a gun in the house?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: JoG2 on October 09, 2015, 03:58:23 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.


A whole year? Wow.

Do you have kids? My thoughts might seem extreme but when it comes to my kids I tend to err very much on the side of caution and make no apologies for it.

Surely that's even more reason not to have a gun in the house?

this is what I cannot get my head around. Someone breaks into my house the last thing I'd want to do is start a gun fight in a confined space with the children about.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: The Iceman on October 09, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:10:19 PM
what if you watched Love/hate and lived in Dublin?

I think the Amnesty to register guns is a great idea. Harsh penalties would help too.  The thing to consider though is local law enforcement on a state by state basis. Some would choose not to enforce.
Like in California they very lenient towards illegal immigrants. Any illegals who are arrested on petty crimes or misdemeanors should be deported, but they are not, the CA police choose not to enforce it.  I wonder how they would get the state by state police to enforce such laws. I know a lot of cops and they have a load of guns themselves - probably one they should never have.

Muppet you are right - the whole corrupt government thing is crazy. But these are the cards you have to deal with. Pointing out they are shit doesn't win the hand.

Yes that might be the start of something in Ireland. But it was just one programme. It would be impossible to put a figure on who might be affected by that type of programme, but if there were more programmes, based say in Belfast, Cork, Galway etc, it would reinforce the impression, especially for the impressionable.

I spent 5/6 weeks in a small city in the US years ago. It was a bit of a backwater, but the people were nice and it seemed very quiet. That was my impression, until I decided to pick up a local paper and discovered it was then the murder capital of the USA, at least according to the paper. It changed my perception of the place dramatically, but how do I reconcile that with not having seen anything remotely threatening? I was better off in ignorance.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 11, 2015, 02:50:17 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 11, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 04:35:02 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 05:15:04 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:19:36 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 07:25:34 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 12, 2015, 07:32:09 PM

Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

the problem with that is the next vigilante that comes in to shoot up the bad guy might not be a 4 year veteran!!!!

anyway, you fellas are going off on a big tangent. as mentioned above, the NRA own most of the politicians and pump in a lot of money. there will be no amnesty, but they CAN do SOMETHING!! the problem is they are doing f**k all!!
america is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. money will always come first, before school kids, before soldiers before everything.
but they need to do something!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 07:35:31 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?

Let me get this right, after a shooting, and the shooter is dead, you line up all the survivors, search them for weapons and treat them as suspects. But when the shooting is going on, you grab the first person that has a gun, you know absolutely nothing about the guy, his past, his criminal record, his sanity, and tell him to go in to the school and start shooting!

Ya you got me alright.

Completely bonkers.

As for the planes 'hypocrisy in government', do I have this right? Are you for arming all the passengers on every flight? Or are you against ordinary people carrying guns everywhere? I don't understand your point on that one.

As for your analogy. It will never happen. I will never be in public carrying a gun, far less be 200 years from a school with a deadly weapon. I am different to you, in that I don't actually believe I am an undiscovered John Wayne.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 08:28:34 PM
An amnesty will never happen, it is ingrained in them the right to bear arms, if the Govt tried this in any form they would be out on the streets protesting with fecking uzi's and all sorts of auto and semi automatic weaponry.

The NRA is too strong, they are b**tards but they are incredibly well funded and own the politicians.

I am anti gun btw, I just never see anything like this being allowed to happen.

He wasn't suggesting a hand your guns in amnesty - more a register your guns amnesty - a period of time to do it for free maybe? quick and easy.  If you don't register weapons and are found to be in possession of weapons they you get jail time or a huge fine.. I think it would work on a level...

It wont work sadly, these boys will refuse to register the majority of them will, they are that adamant in their constitutional rights, you cant put them all in jail for failing to register and the NRA will never let that happen, it will be shot down (Pardon the pun)

Grand. A school shooting every couple of months it is then.

Don't shoot the messenger muppet, I did not say I agreed with it!

Below is a quote at the school were 9 innocent people died recently.



The college interim president said she would not support armed security because the campus was a place of beauty, serenity and love. Where the f#ck do these assholes come from?

There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus, the NRA are using this liberal kind of shite to make their argument and I can understand why.

One last thing, if I lived in London I would vote labor, I despise the NRA and in no way endorse the use of guns, in this case, I would have given yer man the green light to go kill the athiest asshole who destroyed 9 people.

If 'yer man' had shot kids accidentally while trying to 'kill the atheist asshole', would you take responsibility if you were a staff member?

This type of NRA discourse is complete lunacy. LOOK OVER THERE! A GOOD GUY WITH A GUN. WE NEED HIM TO KILL THE BAD GUY WITH A GUN.

Guns are the problem, as are the people who insist on inserting them into as many facets of society as possible. I agree with the college interim president. More gun-toting nut jobs is not the solution.

Here is a question for you Stew. Considering what happened on 911, why doesn't the USA allow every passenger and crew member to pack heat on board every flight? Y'know, so there will be more good guys with guns than bad guys with guns?

Well muppet I think they should have thrown f**king flowers at him as he shot innocent kids dead! :-X

You seem fine with the way it was handled, well except for the terrible and inhumane the police dealt with the crisis!


I will make this easier for you muppet, it is perfectly legal to kill  stone dead a **** that is shooting children with your legally held, concealed weapon.

What is not ok is to sit on your hands and do f**k all!


Of course I would want him to kill the f**ker with his gun, the man was a 4 year veteran and knows how to use his gun, I seriously doubt he would have taken down a student.

I got ya muppet, when he starts a shootin you can ask him to please stop, that the school is an area of peace, serenity and love, yep, that will get the job done, the mind boggles!


As for your question about guns on planes, therin lies the hypocrisy in government.

I have one for you, so you are at the school and the **** starts asking who the Christians are, then starts shooting people, and you are two hundreds yards away with a legally held gun, do you go take him down or would you be sipping tea with the stupid bitch that  you agree with that the campus is an area of peace, serenity and lurve?

Let me get this right, after a shooting, and the shooter is dead, you line up all the survivors, search them for weapons and treat them as suspects. But when the shooting is going on, you grab the first person that has a gun, you know absolutely nothing about the guy, his past, his criminal record, his sanity, and tell him to go in to the school and start shooting!

Ya you got me alright.

Completely bonkers.

As for the planes 'hypocrisy in government', do I have this right? Are you for arming all the passengers on every flight? Or are you against ordinary people carrying guns everywhere? I don't understand your point on that one.

As for your analogy. It will never happen. I will never be in public carrying a gun, far less be 200 years from a school with a deadly weapon. I am different to you, in that I don't actually believe I am an undiscovered John Wayne.

I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass shootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 08:46:43 PM
I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass sootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!

Are you serious? Anyone remotely sane person would call the police. You seem to have different ideas.

Then you accuse me of not reading something or other, of course you didn't provide a link.

So I went looking. I found links to right wing lunatic sites with their version of the story. But if you have a proper respectable source please post it.

Now this is the interesting bit. Apparently this Vet was in a GUN FREE ZONE, with a gun. He was on campus, in a zone where guns are prohibited, and you wanted to send him in shooting?

This was your hero?

Scrap John Wayne, we are now into Dirty Harry territory, a man who plays by his own rules, kinda like the killer doncha think?


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on October 12, 2015, 08:50:11 PM
I don't think relying on members of the public with concealed arms are the way forward. The guy in question may well have been a veteran, but I don't think that qualifies him to help in a situation like this - it's very much in the balance whether he could have a. killed the perp b. got himself killed or c. got a student/s killed.

That said, a lot of the police tactics that are used now are a result of the Columbine shooting. There the police followed the handbook, set a perimeter and did not enter the school until after Harris and Klebold had finished their spree. Interestingly (well morbidly interesting) a lot of the damage is done in the initial exchanges - if a killer is unchallenged, he tends to fall into a lull himself, which happened in Columbine.

Now the police are trained not to set a perimeter, to confront the shooter as soon as possible, even at the expense of evacuating or rescuing victims.

But they are the police, they are trained specifically and I'm sure they wouldn't want another guy with a gun added to the situation.

Seems to me the only solution is to reduce access to guns, especially automatics and semi automatics, because no matter how many "good guys with guns" - most stupid f%$king phrase ever, btw - a pyscho could have wiped out an entire class in seconds.

As for peace, serenity and love, that is a fine aspiration to have for a place of learning. What is the point of being free, when you have to live and work in a prison? It's an amazing country when the freedom to carry a gun is considered to be more important than the freedom to not have a gun pointed at you on a regular basis.

If a pyschopath has any aims beyond his own gratification, then guaranteeing their immortality through destroying a system might be one. Militarizing schools and teachers is a far more bizarre response than wishing that you worked in a place of serenity and love - and it is exactly the fearful response a pyschopath craves.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 12, 2015, 09:25:53 PM
you don't take the time to read what was written

Lol.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 12, 2015, 10:04:07 PM
I don't make the rules, neither do the cops muppet, they are trained to handle mass sootings this way after they take the hoor down, not their fault, blame the bureaucrats!

I don't think I am an undiscovered John Wayne? I want nothing to do with guns but I have you figured out, you don't take the time to read what was written, your man with the gun wanted to go help but the faculty members would not let him, he was licensed to carry the weapon and he may well have saved lives! He knew the faculty members so they were hardly strangers.muppet,

Answer me this muppet, if you heard shots going off in a school who would you call, who would come to the scene and who would take care of the situation?

You method of doing nothing solves nothing, it just leads to more deaths and heartbroken families, but you, you know, keep talking about peace, serenity and lurve! I am sure the madman will simply give up and say sorry!!! Fcuk sake!

Are you serious? Anyone remotely sane person would call the police. You seem to have different ideas.

Then you accuse me of not reading something or other, of course you didn't provide a link.

So I went looking. I found links to right wing lunatic sites with their version of the story. But if you have a proper respectable source please post it.

Now this is the interesting bit. Apparently this Vet was in a GUN FREE ZONE, with a gun. He was on campus, in a zone where guns are prohibited, and you wanted to send him in shooting?

This was your hero?

Scrap John Wayne, we are now into Dirty Harry territory, a man who plays by his own rules, kinda like the killer doncha think?

No I don't think muppet, you seem to be star struck, do you love Hollywood stars muppet?

You are a hypocrite muppet, out of one corner of your mouth you say you would call the cops, out of the other corner of your mouth you denounce the very cops you would call on the way they do their jobs! Hypocritical but typical.

I did not say I would send him in? Where did I say I would send him in and who the fack am I to send anyone in shooting anywhere?

I would not have had a problem if he had went in and shot the **** dead, better him trying at least to kill the f**ker than waiting for the peelers to come after nine lie dead don't you think?

It is a moot point as he did feck all and if he broke the law pertaining to the area being a gun free zone he should have to face charges.

As for you, you have yourself backed into a corner on the issue of the cops and you don't have it in you to admit you are wrong! If you cannot get it through your skull that they are doing what they are taught to do in these situations no one can help you.

I know, you and that interim lady should retrain the police and really, really make sure they know that all they need to do their jobs are peace, love and serenity! ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2015, 11:36:44 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 13, 2015, 08:05:23 AM
When May I Shoot a Student?

By GREG HAMPIKIANFEB. 27, 2014
 
BOISE, Idaho — TO the chief counsel of the Idaho State Legislature:

In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days, I have a matter of practical concern that I hope you can help with: When may I shoot a student?

I am a biology professor, not a lawyer, and I had never considered bringing a gun to work until now. But since many of my students are likely to be armed, I thought it would be a good idea to even the playing field.
 
I have had encounters with disgruntled students over the years, some of whom seemed quite upset, but I always assumed that when they reached into their backpacks they were going for a pencil. Since I carry a pen to lecture, I did not feel outgunned; and because there are no working sharpeners in the lecture hall, the most they could get off is a single point. But now that we’ll all be packing heat, I would like legal instruction in the rules of classroom engagement.

At present, the harshest penalty available here at Boise State is expulsion, used only for the most heinous crimes, like cheating on Scantron exams. But now that lethal force is an option, I need to know which infractions may be treated as de facto capital crimes.

I assume that if a student shoots first, I am allowed to empty my clip; but given the velocity of firearms, and my aging reflexes, I’d like to be proactive. For example, if I am working out a long equation on the board and several students try to correct me using their laser sights, am I allowed to fire a warning shot?

If two armed students are arguing over who should be served next at the coffee bar and I sense escalating hostility, should I aim for the legs and remind them of the campus Shared-Values Statement (which reads, in part, “Boise State strives to provide a culture of civility and success where all feel safe and free from discrimination, harassment, threats or intimidation”)?
 
While our city police chief has expressed grave concerns about allowing guns on campus, I would point out that he already has one. I’m glad that you were not intimidated by him, and did not allow him to speak at the public hearing on the bill (though I really enjoyed the 40 minutes you gave to the National Rifle Association spokesman).

Knee-jerk reactions from law enforcement officials and university presidents are best set aside. Ignore, for example, the lame argument that some drunken frat boys will fire their weapons in violation of best practices. This view is based on stereotypical depictions of drunken frat boys, a group whose dignity no one seems willing to defend.
 
The problem, of course, is not that drunken frat boys will be armed; it is that they are drunken frat boys. Arming them is clearly not the issue. They would cause damage with or without guns. I would point out that urinating against a building or firing a few rounds into a sorority house are both violations of the same honor code.

In terms of the campus murder rate — zero at present — I think that we can all agree that guns don’t kill people, people with guns do. Which is why encouraging guns on campus makes so much sense. Bad guys go where there are no guns, so by adding guns to campus more bad guys will spend their year abroad in London. Britain has incredibly restrictive laws — their cops don’t even have guns! — and gun deaths there are a tiny fraction of what they are in America. It’s a perfect place for bad guys.
 
Some of my colleagues are concerned that you are encouraging firearms within a densely packed concentration of young people who are away from home for the first time, and are coincidentally the age associated with alcohol and drug experimentation, and the commission of felonies.

Once again, this reflects outdated thinking about students. My current students have grown up learning responsible weapon use through virtual training available on the Xbox and PlayStation. Far from being enamored of violence, many studies have shown, they are numb to it. These creative young minds will certainly be stimulated by access to more technology at the university, items like autoloaders, silencers and hollow points. I am sure that it has not escaped your attention that the library would make an excellent shooting range, and the bookstore could do with fewer books and more ammo choices.

I want to applaud the Legislature’s courage. On a final note: I hope its members will consider my amendment for bulletproof office windows and faculty body armor in Boise State blue and orange.

Greg Hampikian is a professor of biology and criminal justice at Boise State University and a co-author of “Exit to Freedom.”
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 09:11:23 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: johnneycool on October 13, 2015, 09:40:05 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

f**k that, every tourist, illegal immigrant and whoever should be handed a gun at the airports or border crossings in case they run into a madman at Disney or a six flags!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 10:17:15 AM
This really is a return to The Wild West: "In light of the bill permitting guns on our state’s college and university campuses, which is likely to be approved by the state House of Representatives in the coming days".

Will the guns be allowed in the Churches, Chapels and Mosques? If they are on campus I guess people will now have a RIGHT to bring their guns into the various religious houses.

The nut jobs won't even have to plan getting their weapons past any security anymore.

f**k that, every tourist, illegal immigrant and whoever should be handed a gun at the airports or border crossings in case they run into a madman at Disney or a six flags!

I think everyone that sets foot in every legislature, especially Capitol Hill, should be heavily armed. All tourists, politicians, lobbyists, cranks and protestors. Just in case.

Everyone at mass should be checked and banned from entry, unless they are carrying. Instead of 'peace be with you', people should be head to say, 'I'm carrying a piece' or maybe 'go ahead, make my day'.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 10:19:57 AM
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34507760 (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-34507760)

Texas students are planning to hang sex toys from their bags in protest at a law allowing people to carry concealed weapons on university campuses.
"You're carrying a gun to class? Yeah well I'm carrying a HUGE DILDO," Jessica Jin, organiser of Campus (DILDO) Carry, wrote on Facebook.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 01:23:03 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 01:48:02 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?

Stew you have gone completely off the rails. Your 2nd sentence doesn't make any sense. I don't use the word 'peelers'. That is from the mid 19th century in the UK.

You came on here claiming the guy had been denied his chance of being a hero. You never provided a link. Now we know why. Your story was inaccurate. Whether it was NBC, FOX NEWS or out of the NRA's hole, the guy himself said 'luckily, we made the choice not to get involved'. He was denied nothing.

Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
Stew here is our man being interviewed: http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings (http://mic.com/articles/126203/this-armed-vet-at-umpqua-nails-why-eliminating-gun-free-zones-won-t-stop-mass-shootings)

Here is the interview on NBC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=1&v=7mOJf9HW2Zo)

"Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved," he told MSNBC. "We were quite a distance away from the actual building where it was happening, which could have opened us up to being potential targets ourselves. And, you know, not knowing where SWAT was on their response time, they wouldn't know who we were, and if we had our guns ready to shoot, they'd think we were the bad guys."

There is some debate regarding his own weapon. He was breaking college rules. He cites the constitution and Oregon Law to defend himself. I'll have to leave that to the locals to see how far over the line he was. I'd suggest that going after him would be counter-productive as the NRA would make a martyr of him. And an anti-Christ of the campus staff and their bosses.

But that isn't the point.

He said: "Luckily, we made the choice not to get involved".

And you accuse me of not bothering to read the story that you didn't bother to provide a link to?

Now back to the cops. Again and again I have pointed out that my issue is with the strategy, as directed by the bosses. The cops on the ground just follow orders. Again and again you ignore that. But then looking at the videos above, you cherry pick what you like and disregard the rest. So you probably aren't reading this bit anyway and I bet you started typing you reply before you got past the videos. Did you know that all of the Armagh team and management have come out of the closet? And Fearon as well?

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.

You call the peelers when it suits you and you condemn the way they would handle  your issue, hypocritical.

Good for them and Tony! Who cares?

Stew you have gone completely off the rails. Your 2nd sentence doesn't make any sense. I don't use the word 'peelers'. That is from the mid 19th century in the UK.

You came on here claiming the guy had been denied his chance of being a hero. You never provided a link. Now we know why. Your story was inaccurate. Whether it was NBC, FOX NEWS or out of the NRA's hole, the guy himself said 'luckily, we made the choice not to get involved'. He was denied nothing.

Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie.


I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

By the way, more hypocrisy from the left in the article below.

Liberal ‘Daily Show’ Host Insults Ben Carson… But Then Said Something Stunning When Cameras Were Off
Retired neurosurgeon and presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson took quite a bit of heat recently from the liberal media after he stated that more people should attempt to rush and overpower mass shooters.

In Carson’s take, doing so could possibly prevent the criminals and psychopaths from killing so many innocent people.

One member of the liberal media who piled on Carson’s comments was the new host of Comedy Central’s “Daily Show,” Trevor Noah, who skewered Carson during one of his monologues last week.

Noah said, “Rushing a gunman? It seems crazy… It’s weird that Ben Carson would think a zombie strategy would be the way to go. Unless… wait a second. Slow, languid pace. Dead eyes. Loves brains. Oh my God, this explains everything, Ben Carson is a zombie!”

However, during a political convention this weekend, Noah sang a different tune while speaking with political commentator and liberal strategist James Carville.

Noah seemingly walked back his initial criticism of Carson’s statements and admitted that rushing a gunman is actually a good idea, though he still insulted Carson, to an extent.

“Everyone rushed (to Carson) and said, ‘You’re crazy, you crazy man.’ And the first thing I say is, ‘Rush the gunman? Oh, he’s right. He’s actually right. If people rush the gunman, there is a chance that the person would be able to kill less people.’”

Noah added, “But he’s callous. And he’s not considering the fact that you’re talking about humans, and not soldiers… But I don’t come from a place where he’s wrong because I stand on the opposite side of him.”

Trevor Noah and Ben Carson are quite different ideologically speaking, but at least Noah was willing to admit that, at least in this case, Carson has the right idea.

Perhaps Noah should look at some of Carson’s other stances on various issues with an open mind, as he may find he agrees with the doctor on some of them as well.

And maybe the next time Noah admits that a target of his criticism was actually right.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 04:46:58 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 13, 2015, 04:51:16 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 05:08:54 PM
Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 13, 2015, 07:03:01 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:09:50 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:32:42 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 07:36:24 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:39:41 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?

More so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:41:16 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

I cant see it no mo, it was on the Conservative Tribune I saw it.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 07:46:19 PM

MSNBC LOLOLOLOL, Far left looney snotrag of a tv station.


Stew, are you saying they doctored the interview with the guy, or that they scripted it?

No, I am saying that station is the single most biased station of them all, well, they are tied with Fox news on that score, they are out there.

Do you seriously believe  that they are far left as Fox as far right?

Who is their Hannity?

I cant watch it anymore, I tried and I cannot do it, shit I can hardly watch Fox but you have to as it stands alone as a conservative platform and it does have Megyn Kelly on there, I would love a rattle at that woman, she is some article!  :)

I primarily watch CBS and CNBC to get some semblance of normalcy.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2015, 08:14:23 PM
You have to watch Fox?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 08:36:56 PM
You have to watch Fox?

Yes I do, I like to watch them all to get different perspective on the same issues, what I cant do is watch msnbc, I would end up putting my foot through my flat screen, communist arsehole the lot of them.

Why would you not watch Fox, you would be able to pick their lies apart surely muppet?

I would prefer to glean information from many outlets but hey, you keep drinking the leftist kool aid and stick to your left is right mantra!

Jesus wept!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 13, 2015, 08:39:24 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 08:41:51 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets

Thank you whitey, he accused me the fecking muppet!  :P
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 09:50:39 PM
Yet you still can't post the source. "It was on the conservative tribune" is all you can muster.

Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?

Probably. Then again, wiki is at least edited to some extent. The worst bit is that even after some posters offered to correct your awful attempt at maths and suggest that what you meant to claim was (as is often cited) that there are 90 guns for every 100 Americans (in case you still don't get it, which I imagine you don't, this is vastly different from 90% of Americans owning guns), you didn't even appreciate the get out of jail free card you were being offered and continued to ramble on illogically and incoherently about liberals, loony lefties, communists etc.

Yet you call me a numpty. Interesting. I've always joked about how easy it must be to make it America but Christ you prove the theory.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on October 13, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?
[/quote]

No, no I don't. You forgotten where you come from or something? You generally don't know or remember much, so it wouldn't surprise me.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 13, 2015, 11:27:35 PM
What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?

No, no I don't. You forgotten where you come from or something? You generally don't know or remember much, so it wouldn't surprise me.
[/quote]

In fairness I do suffer from epilepsy and had to learn to read and write again back in the day after being hit by a drunk driver so you might be right!

Maths!  :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 14, 2015, 06:53:20 AM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: blewuporstuffed on October 14, 2015, 09:34:04 AM
Yet you still can't post the source. "It was on the conservative tribune" is all you can muster.

Careful now. Last week he posted a Facebook page as evidence that 90% of Americans own guns. This one was probably on Justin Bieber's Twitter.

You ever quoted from wiki you numpty?

I do not have to, it has been verified ya **** ya!


Probably. Then again, wiki is at least edited to some extent. The worst bit is that even sheet some posters offered to correct your awful attempt at maths and suggest that what you meant to claim was (as is often cited) that there are 90 guns for every 100 Americans (in case you still don't get it, which I imagine you don't, this is vastly different from 90% of Americans owning guns), you didn't even appreciate the get out of jail free card you being offered and continued to ramble on illogically and incoherently about liberals, loony lefties, communists etc.

Yet you call me a numpty. Interesting. I've always joked about how easy it must be to make it America but Christ you prove the theory.

What is maths? Do you mean math you illiterate piece of shite?

You would know nothing about making it, I would so f**k off  and die you absolute piece of shite!
Stay classy Stew
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 12:52:43 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That b**tard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!


Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 14, 2015, 07:40:12 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That b**tard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!

Ah go on Stew.  :D

Please post where I said I'd support Hillary.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 14, 2015, 09:46:14 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

This coming from a man who would support HC as president! That b**tard would not know the truth if it jumped up and bit her on her arse!

Ah go on Stew.  :D

Please post where I said I'd support Hillary.

If she got the Dems vote to run for President and you had a vote who would you vote for?

Hmmm, Carson? Nah, Trump? Hell Nah, How about ANY Republican? Nah. That would leave Hillary and I would never believe you if you said you would vote for any conservative, the next good word you say about any of them will be the first.

I also do not believe you would not vote, you lot cant help yourselves.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 14, 2015, 10:27:13 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 15, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 15, 2015, 01:10:31 AM
Very interesting decision today in a landmark legal case in the US. Its going to go to a few appeals I would imagine,

source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/10/14/the-multimillion-dollar-wisconsin-gun-store-verdict-that-could-reverberate-in-the-gun-debate/

Quote
The multimillion dollar Wisconsin gun store verdict that could reverberate in the gun debate

 
In an unusual case, a jury in Wisconsin declared Tuesday that a gun store had to pay millions of dollars to Milwaukee police officers who were shot by a firearm bought at the store.

The case offered an attention-grabbing combination of factors, including a rare loss for the firearms industry, a verdict awarding more than $5 million in damages, injured police officers and a contested gun sale. And it also arrived as the country discusses gun violence in the wake of another mass shooting, an ongoing conversation that has led to presidential candidates debating a federal law that protects gun sellers and manufacturers from liability.

Experts say the Wisconsin verdict’s long-term impact could be significant if it prompts a surge in new lawsuits aimed at the firearms industry and at the federal law’s exemptions, though they caution that the case is far from over, as the lawyer for the gun store says he plans to appeal.

“We may be at the threshold of something, but you can’t predict it right now,” said Marshall S. Shapo, a law professor at Northwestern University and an expert in product liability. “When you get a blip like this, it may signal that there’s a target of opportunity but you have a long way to go.”


The case centered on a gun that was sold to one person, given to another and then used not long after to shoot two police officers.

In 2009, two Milwaukee police officers named Bryan Norberg and Graham Kunisch were attempting to stop an 18-year-old named Julius Burton for riding his bicycle on a sidewalk. Burton opened fire at the officers, hitting both of them. Norberg was shot in the face, shoulder and knee, while Knusch was shot in the face, hand, shoulder and neck, according to the Wisconsin Supreme Court’s account of the case.

Burton was found guilty in 2010 and sentenced to 80 years. He pleaded guilty and later tried to withdraw these pleas, but the state Supreme Court denied that request. Jacob Collins, who bought the gun, was convicted of violating federal gun laws and sentenced to two years in prison.


Norberg and Kunisch both survived and filed a civil lawsuit against Badger Guns, the store that sold the gun Burton later used to shoot them. They argued in the lawsuit that the store knew or should have known that Collins was buying the firearm for Burton, who was too young to buy the gun.

Jurors on Tuesday deliberated for about nine hours before coming to a decision that Milwaukee County Circuit Judge John DiMotto read from the bench. Among other things, DiMotto said that the jury had found the sale to be negligent and that this was responsible for the injuries to both officers.

James B. Vogts, the attorney for Badger Guns, said in an e-mailed statement late Tuesday that he and his clients expected it to wind up in the appellate courts.

“Significant legal issues were decided in the case that impacted the evidence the jury was permitted to consider and the legal standards they were told to apply,” Vogts said. “We will appeal.”

The same night the verdict was read, Democratic presidential candidates participating in a debate in Las Vegas sparred over gun violence and the federal law that provides rare protection for companies that sell or make firearms.

This shield law — known as the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act — has been praised by the firearms industry and decried by supporters of gun-control. The law was passed in 2005 following a wave of lawsuits from victims of gun violence and cities. More than 30 states also enacted similar statutes, according to the Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.

The federal measure also offers some exceptions that allow for civil lawsuits, including when someone knows a firearm will be used for violence, when a sale could violate a law or when the seller is negligent. The civil complaint filed by Norberg and Kunisch highlighted some of the exceptions in the federal law.

This liability protection has drawn new coverage recently as Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, who voted against the 2005 law as a senator, said she would push to repeal the federal law if elected president.

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.), who voted for the bill while he was in the House, has come under fire for his stance on guns.

During the Democratic debate in Las Vegas, Sanders said he did not support shielding gun companies from lawsuits, but he did say action was needed to stop manufacturers for knowingly allowing criminals to get guns.

Sanders also said the country had to deal with the straw purchasing issue at work in the Wisconsin case. (A “straw purchase” is when one person who can legally buy a gun purchases it for someone who cannot or will not.)

Attorneys for victims of mass shootings have been critical of the federal law for limiting their ability to file lawsuits after such violence, but the gun industry contends that it is necessary. The National Rifle Association, which pushed for the law, says the shield protects the industry from lawsuits it describes as unfair.

The law is needed to protect companies from being blamed for the “criminal misuse of lawfully sold, non-defective firearms,” said Lawrence G. Keane, general counsel for the National Shooting Sports Foundation, the the firearms industry’s trade association. Since 2000, the foundation has run a campaign aimed at stopping straw purchases, he said.

Keane said the federal law was never intended to offer blanket immunity, and said that the jury verdict in Wisconsin shows that the law is functioning as it should.

“The Badger Guns case makes the case that the statute works exactly as Congress intended,” Keane said. “If a law pertaining to the sale of firearms has been violated, they can be sued. There’s no need to repeal the statute, it works exactly as intended.”

Keane said that his group would fight any effort to repeal the law. “Even Bernie Sanders has said it’s wrong to sue a manufacturer,” he said. “You wouldn’t sue Budweiser for a drunk driving accident.”

The Wisconsin verdict was believed to be the first such jury verdict since the 2005 shield law was passed. In June, jurors in Alaska cleared a gun shop owner accused of illegally selling a gun later used to kill a man.

“Lawsuits against gun stores and manufacturers really died down to a trickle after the immunity bill was passed in 2005,” said Timothy D. Lytton, a law professor at Georgia State University College of Law in Atlanta.


Lytton said that some suits were still filed, but nothing liked the dozens of cases that had been filed in the years before the law. This verdict “may actually encourage plaintiffs’ attorneys to bring lawsuits” under these exceptions.

“This looks like a possible resurgence,” he said.

Lytton said that in the wake of high-profile shootings like the violent rampages at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Conn., and Umpqua Community College shooting in Oregon earlier this month, the public does not expect new legislation pushing for gun control.

“Given that you’re not likely to have legislative responses, where are you going to get pressure?” he said. “The answer is civil liability. It provides incentive to gun stores to follow these sorts of guidelines and for an industry to try and police them.”

Keane said the Wisconsin verdict is “absolutely an outlier” and said that he expected gun control groups to push for more lawsuits in the future, even though he did not expect a wave of verdicts ruling against gun stores.

“Whether this sort of opens the proverbial floodgates, that is unlikely because it’s very, very rare that you would find this sort of set of facts that they appear to have, that the jury found in the Badger Guns case,” he said. “The vast, overwhelming majority of dealers are law-abiding.”

The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, which has sharply criticized the 2005 federal law, also said that most gun dealers were not breaking the law, adding that it hoped the verdict would be a cautionary tale for any other gun sellers who may try to skirt the law.

“Most gun dealers are decent, responsible business people who already do what they can to keep guns out of the hands of criminals,” Jonathan Lowy, director of the Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence’s Legal Action Project, said in a statement.

He continued: “But to those dealers who choose to irresponsibly supply and profit from the criminal market, the message from Milwaukee is clear: protect people over profits, or you will have to pay the consequences to your victims.”
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:23:49 AM
Unbelievably I coached the store owners son in the football, they have a mansion in Howard, a few mile from where I lived.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Declan on October 15, 2015, 07:56:36 AM
Scary figures here

http://uk.businessinsider.com/guns-have-killed-more-preschoolers-than-police-officers-2015-10?utm_content=buffer811b9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer?r=US&IR=T (http://uk.businessinsider.com/guns-have-killed-more-preschoolers-than-police-officers-2015-10?utm_content=buffer811b9&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer?r=US&IR=T)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: AZOffaly on October 15, 2015, 10:27:33 AM
Why would Police Officers kill pre-schoolers? (sorry bad taste, but I couldn't help it when I saw the URL)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 01:53:32 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:14:32 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:24:58 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 15, 2015, 02:36:23 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.

Tell us stew, what should Obama have done regarding spending when he took over in 2009?

How are the Dems attacking capitalism?

Walker was recalled via the voters. In case you missed it, the GOP got Arnie elected in CA the same way. Democracy in action. No anti-intellectualism or conspiracism.

Bush dished out as much as he ever got.  He dragged the country into Iraq under cooked intelligence, used 9-11 to bully opposition and oversaw the Swift boat campaign against Kerry, about as disgraceful a campaign as has ever been.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 02:48:08 PM
I've voted Republican in NYC elections.

In a national election, not a hope in hell, at least until the national GOP sheds the lunatic element which has seized control of their party.

There seems to be no middle ground anymore, both parties are getting more extreme and they simply will  not work together for the good of the people, they can give themselves nice raises however.

If anyone is clever enough to move to the middle and actually work with the other side on the issues, grave issues like  the fact that the national debt has doubled in the past 7 years, households have, according to some consumer reports, $2,000 a year less disposable income and there are 2 million more homeless people living in the country today than 7 years ago.

I do not blame all of this on Obama, the republicans, like the democrats have severely retarded the growth of the economy because they can see eye to eye on nothing, in short they are collectively hurting the American people and change is needed by both sides to affect change, sadly I do not see it happening because the next president whether blue or red will have the noose of current history hanging around their necks with people disrespecting the new president from pillar to post, in short I think the Presidency has lost a lot of it's lustre and I seriously doubt it will ever return.

The Dems are pretty much as they have always been. The GOP is the one embracing the crazies. It wasn't a Democratic governor legitimizing the Jade Helm insanity in Texas. It wasn't the Dems who spent years legitimizing the birthers and "Obama is a muslim" bullshit.  It's not the Dems who are denying science or trying to hold back gay marriage and embracing a false narrative about white Christian persecution. It's not the Dems who refuse to budge an inch on even the most common sense measures of gun control like background checks. It's not Dems who want to deny kids who grew up in the States residency because through no fault of theirs their parents were illegal  immigrants. I could go on....


Are they f**k, they are attacking capitalism, spending trillions of dollars and devastating this country from the inside out, this President has  amassed more debt than every single president before him combined and at some point that is going to have to be addressed.

Party politics is repugnant, it was the dems who tried to have Walker kicked out of office even though he was elected by the people, it was the dems that absolutely abused president bush at every farts turn, what the fook did you think was going to happen?

The republicans are a disgrace as are the democrats, this batch of entrenched political animals might just be the weakest political entity this country has ever seen, both sides, but spare me the rhetoric that just highlights the republicans foibles, the dems are every bit as bad, both a disgrace.

Tell us stew, what should Obama have done regarding spending when he took over in 2009?

Certainly should not have given handouts to banks and absolve them of their debt. probably should not have bailed out seemingly everyone bar ford in the Auto indudtry, and yeah, he might not have wanted to have the top men receiving massive bonus checks under his watch as their companies went into the toilet. You speak like this president is FDR esque, far from it, he is as big a bumbler as Bush ever was, and oh yeah, he probably didnt need to double the national debt in eight years, which is is more than going to do!
How are the Dems attacking capitalism?

Walker was recalled via the voters. In case you missed it, the GOP got Arnie elected in CA the same way. Democracy in action. No anti-intellectualism or conspiracism.

Walker beat the dems, beat the shit out of them, they ran to Illinois the cowards rather than try and work with him, not the GOP, the Democrats! True story. )

Bush dished out as much as he ever got.  He dragged the country into Iraq under cooked intelligence, used 9-11 to bully opposition and oversaw the Swift boat campaign against Kerry, about as disgraceful a campaign as has ever been.

I blame Chad for that myself, Kerry is a balloon, he is a mealy mouthed diplomat who needs to go away.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 15, 2015, 03:13:41 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book

To prove I called someone a liar, you provide a post from someone else? This even after I put up the relevant post.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please, keep it up, I need a good laugh.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on October 15, 2015, 04:56:42 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.

"Stood down" may be a stretch but that's how it was actually reported, so Stew is not making this up. He Was directed by school authorities not to intervene as no one quite knew where the shooter was. The shooter was 200 yards away in another building, so he was not directly engaged with him.

The armed vet did say in another interview, that if the shooter had entered his location, he would have taken action to protect those around him

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UwL4_KDDuhg

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=b2I93N6H_eM

This is what he said: "There was a veteran who had a legal weapon, concealed carry permit 200 yards away, he wanted to go help but was told to stay put by staff members on campus".

'He wanted to go help', is different to 'we made the choice not to get involved'.

And a good decision it was too, Parker said himself it was likely that the SWAT team might think he was the shooter and blow him to bits.

You accused anther poster of lying when he said he either read or saw a report where the Vet was ordered to stand down. He wasn't lying.....it was widely reported as such in several media outlets


You need to read the thread again, as usual.

Here is exactly what I said: "Now either you lied to us, or you made a mistake and believed someone else who lied. But it is not NBC's lie."

What is it with Republican supports and their difficult relationship with the truth?

Quote from: stew on October 13, 2015, 02:03:09 PM
I didn't lie, I never said you used the term peelers and I saw an interview where he tells a different tale.

Post it.


By demanding he post it (which you did on numerous occasions) you are calling him a liar in my book

To prove I called someone a liar, you provide a post from someone else? This even after I put up the relevant post.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Please, keep it up, I need a good laugh.

Semantics gentlemen, time to move on.

I did see him interviewed and he had something completely different to saw than what muppet posted, I wish I could find it but I am not good with computers, I will retract my statement that he should have been allowed to go in because he is a bullshitter who panders to whomever is talking to him.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on October 19, 2015, 01:18:31 PM
http://news.sky.com/story/1571864/boy-3-shot-dead-during-cops-and-robbers-game   ::)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on October 19, 2015, 02:16:31 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on October 19, 2015, 03:57:13 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on October 19, 2015, 06:19:39 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on October 21, 2015, 04:43:26 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

Exactly. But isn't that gun control?


This figure quoted by the judge James Brown is jaw-dropping: " That’s why we’ve had 2,300 people shot in Chicago so far this year."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on October 22, 2015, 07:30:08 AM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

Exactly. But isn't that gun control?


This figure quoted by the judge James Brown is jaw-dropping: " That’s why we’ve had 2,300 people shot in Chicago so far this year."

I noticed that myself and was gobsmacked, but a quick bit of googling and its not a homicide figure, that was 432 last year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Kursk on November 01, 2015, 03:01:58 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.

Indeed. You hit the nail on the head.

One thing that people don't seem to realize , and its staring them in the face, is the connection between gun control and US foreign policy. The same mentality reigns.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Wildweasel74 on November 17, 2015, 06:30:09 PM
Donald Trump, nothing but a p***k, taking advantage of the horror in paris to preach no need for gun control to americans. What a pathetic example of a human being.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on November 17, 2015, 10:29:44 PM
Does he with the orange bird's nest on his head know that, according to Slate.com, over 80,000 Americans have died from guns since Sandy Hook.  So, does he want even more French to die, that ass.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on November 17, 2015, 10:41:04 PM
Same story, family tragedy

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/10/19/boy-6-fatally-shoots-toddler-brother-while-playing-cops-and-robbers-dad-arrested/

What a fvckin idiot.  An illegal gun, wrapped in a pair of old pajamas and the left on top of a fridge. Then he shows the 6 year old where it is......

Trace all these guns back to source and prosecute anyone (as accessories to murder) along the line who violated protocol

The NRA and Republicans are the ones standing in the way of such common sense traceability.

Indeed. You hit the nail on the head.

One thing that people don't seem to realize , and its staring them in the face, is the connection between gun control and US foreign policy. The same mentality reigns.

Im intrigued by your comment......what exactly is the connection between US foreign policy and gun control?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 02, 2015, 07:59:07 PM
Another tragic shooting in California.

Police are attending a shooting in California, with reports of 20 victims.

The San Bernardino Fire Department tweeted that it was responding to a "20 victim shooting incident" and it was working to clear the scene.

It is still a "very active scene" and police are trying to secure the building, said a spokeswoman from the San Bernardino Police Department.

There may be up to three gunmen she said, and the shooters were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armour.

She did not confirm the number of victims.

A local reporter tweeted that people are being evacuated from the Inland Regional Center, a non-profit medical and health organisation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34987697?SThisFB
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 08:16:01 PM
One report saying 15 dead and 25 injured. Still going on. Up to 3 shooters in a building in San Bernadino.

Why is there this never ending supply of crackpots who want to become infamous?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 02, 2015, 08:45:00 PM
When will that stupid Country cop itself on?
And to think people are bombing ISIS.....
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 08:50:17 PM
I have no idea who the shooters are, or the victims, but this is a terrible way to go.

RIP.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 02, 2015, 08:56:50 PM
Reports saying it was a disgruntled county worker.

The building he opened fire on was a centre for people with learning disabilities.

As this news came through on the internet, I was in the middle of watching the debate ongoing in Parliament on going to war
in Syria against ISIS. Passionate speeches for going to war, no matter what the cost, human or financially.

Yet in the US, thousands are been killed in shootings every year, and the country is awash with guns.

Sadly, the NRA hold too much power in Washington, and too many US citizens are against gun control.

Until both sides change, this thread will; go on and on for years with news stories just like this and the ones before.

May those killed rest in peace
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:00:34 PM
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/california-shooting-scene/index.html (http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/us/california-shooting-scene/index.html)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:08:15 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:11:21 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Aaron Boone on December 02, 2015, 09:14:27 PM
Obama issued strongly worded statement after last week's Colorado shooting. There's not much more for him to say after this one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 09:16:22 PM

Multiple shooters in 'tactical gear'. Police detonated some device as well apparently.
Doesn t sound like the usual local nut job.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 02, 2015, 09:16:37 PM
Are people in the media required to think before they put up a tweet from their news station?

KWWLVerified account ‏@KWWL  4m4 minutes ago
Watch the California mass shooting live on KWWL http://bit.ly/1HGMtXg?utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter_kwwl …
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:50:30 PM
Obama issued strongly worded statement after last week's Colorado shooting. There's not much more for him to say after this one.


A lot of people could give 2 fvcks about what he thinks on the matter (even though he is right to a point)

Black Friday saw an unprecedented number of guns sold

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/12/01/black-friday-breaks-record-185k-gun-background-checks/76624604/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 02, 2015, 09:51:58 PM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 10:02:17 PM

14 confirmed dead at this stage. Expect this to rise.

There could be an Act II as well when these guys are tracked down.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 02, 2015, 10:41:53 PM
I work in this field and have worked with Inland Regional Center in the past.

Absolutely devastating news, thoughts and prayers go out to everyone affected by these shootings
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 02, 2015, 11:03:39 PM

This is strange. Shooters get way. Multiple suspects.

Not the usual nutjob scenario where the perpetrator kills himself or gets killed in situ.

No obvious motive. Looks like terrorism is a runner here. God knows what the implications of that scenario  would be.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 02, 2015, 11:29:44 PM
God curse these scummy b**tards!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 12:27:19 AM
Reports saying 2 suspects down, one may be at large
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 12:40:00 AM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?

No idea.

I was referring to the reliability of twitter.

Releasing the name on twitter could be very dangerous to people of the same or a similar name.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 03, 2015, 12:48:02 AM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Is this in the jurisdiction of that sheriff we were discussing earlier this week?

No idea.

I was referring to the reliability of twitter.

Releasing the name on twitter could be very dangerous to people of the same or a similar name.

No, this is San Bernardino county, that guy was in Kern County, but this is SanB Police Dpt not the sheriffs dpt.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 01:11:53 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:01:06 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.

One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

Also just reported that one of deceased shooters is a woman

FBI guy just said they hadnt ruled out a terrorist connection, but had no evidence that that was the case either
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 02:16:27 AM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Your buddy Sayid Farook now being named as suspect
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 02:17:40 AM
This is hard to fathom. A disgruntled worker would have found it hard to get two heavily armed individuals to join him. Even ISIS wouldn't target a hospital in the first instance. I presume this was not a federal facility, so not like Oklahoma. It is some evil c**nts anyhow.

Not sure of this exact location but the regional centers are throughout California and basically their staff support and provide services for individuals with intellectual disabilities
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 03:32:00 AM
One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

The attack seems to have been on the conference room(s) indeed, where "county officials" were gathered.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:15:31 AM
Deceased suspects named as Syed Rizwan Farook & Tashfeen Malik.
Syed Rizwan Farook was a San Bernardino County employee.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gawa316 on December 03, 2015, 06:41:27 AM
One report I heard said that this center had rooms/facilities that they rented out to outside entities for functions

Shooting"may" have nothing to do with the center

The attack seems to have been on the conference room(s) indeed, where "county officials" were gathered.

Just read this from my local Regional Center...

CVRC has received an update from the Association of Regional Center Agencies (ARCA):

"We wish to advise you that we have word in from the Department of Developmental Services that all Inland Regional Center clients and employees are reported safe. At this point, it is our understanding that the victims of today’s attack were part of an outside group. They were meeting in the conference center, a facility separate from, and adjacent to, the main regional center offices. It is often rented out to community groups."
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: nrico2006 on December 03, 2015, 08:18:50 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 08:40:59 AM
Reports saying that multiple shooters involved.

Tweets of police scanners saying number 1 suspect is a Farooq Saeed

Info which of course should be taken with caution.

Your buddy Sayid Farook now being named as suspect

Still no info on wtf possessed him to go on the rampage.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 08:55:40 AM
Apparently Farooq had attended the event earlier and left 'angrily'. He then returned with his wife and they started shooting.

It might not be anything to do with terrorism. It will be interesting to see how easily he got the guns.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: give her dixie on December 03, 2015, 10:27:44 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?

There has been 355 mass shootings this year so far.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-is-the-second-today-and-the-355th-this-year/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on December 03, 2015, 11:06:45 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 03, 2015, 11:21:17 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o

Another lyric for Alanis Morisette!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: finbar o tool on December 03, 2015, 11:21:49 AM
How many mass shootings has there been in America this year?

There has been 355 mass shootings this year so far.....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/the-san-bernardino-mass-shooting-is-the-second-today-and-the-355th-this-year/

wow.... more than 1 a day.....

you know what America needs, more guns!!!  ::) >:(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 03, 2015, 11:40:39 AM
US 2015 mass shootings (4 people or more):

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/ (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/heres-a-map-of-all-the-mass-shootings-in-2015/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 03, 2015, 11:53:57 AM
Kinder eggs are banned in America because they are too dangerous! :o

Correct. Luckily we have Polish shops in our neighbourhood which stock them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Denn Forever on December 03, 2015, 12:09:10 PM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 03, 2015, 12:12:56 PM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rR9IaXH1M0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9UFyNy-rw4

It's nearly too logical and straightforward for the average American to understand.

As has been mentioned before though I doubt he'd have finished the full set were he in Texas!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 04:31:20 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 06:17:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 03, 2015, 07:06:33 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.

Stop talking $hite......the number of Americans who commit mass murder is probably 1/100 of 1%
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 03, 2015, 08:48:13 PM
These people were either opposed to the American way of life or had embraced the American way of life. Same outcome either way.

Stop talking $hite......the number of Americans who commit mass murder is probably 1/100 of 1%

That wasn't quite my point. Americans believe people should keep an arsenal in their house. which isn't the case in other developed countries.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 04, 2015, 11:35:59 AM
Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 04, 2015, 04:57:23 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

A brilliant idea. Create peace by taking away the bad guy's advantage.

This concept could be used globally.

We should give the Palestinians 1,000 nuclear warheads and 100 F-16s. That would guarantee peace in the Middle East.

Syrians rebels should also get nukes, along with Ukranians, Georgians, Chechens, Republican dissidents and any active Loyalist terrorists.

Passengers on all flights should get a set of headphones and a Beretta in their seat pockets. No more hijackings then.

Considering the history of Croke Park, and the distance from the seats to the pitch, all fans should be handed M-16s on entry. Patrons of Hill 16 should also get a couple of grenades. You can't be safe enough these days.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 04, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
Hey - very interesting article here. I know it comes from Salon which can be a very one eyed leftie site, but this is actually balanced in its critique of both sides of the argument and the statistics are actually stunning.

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/04/americas_gun_insanity_is_crazier_than_you_think_our_delusional_era_of_everyday_mass_shootings_and_record_low_crime_rates/

An excellent point well made but comes with a prelude of waffle and insults which you will have to wade through, but maybe he was tying to ironically illustrate his point by doing that?

I often make a similar point, weirdly enough at Thanksgiving as well, but I compare it to motor vehicle deaths, which are something like X3 times the murder death rate and largely non intentional. The effect is the progressives think Im pro gun and the righties think Im anti car. Whereas the reality is actually the opposite (on guns at least, more middle ground on cars)

But my point is that, remove the intend of murder deaths and you remove the death (largely) Unfortunately this is pretty much the same argument as the NRA "guns dont kill people, people do", which I believe to be a valid argument to murders but not against gun control. Anyway this leaves me alienated as a lunnie by both sides at worst, and standing on the fence at best. Where as Im just trying to come up with a proposal based on the facts we know and logic

But the dropping murder rate is an elephant in the room that fits neither sides perception so its ignored, the media have a lot to do with this polarising nature of politics in America and its the classic either or fallacy ( and probably a good few other fallacies to!) which is repeated over and over again and a range of political subjects.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 04, 2015, 06:26:58 PM
http://www.kpho.com/story/30644963/arpaio-calls-on-250k-armed-citizens-to-stop-terrorism-and-mass-shootings


What a great idea!!!!!!

Yes, just what we need. Flustered, scared Joe Soaps whipping out their 45s adding more bullets in the mayhem.

"I didn't mean to shoot those three kids your honour, I was trying to stop the bad guy!"

About time that auld b**tard headed for the nursing home!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: bennydorano on December 04, 2015, 10:15:53 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 04, 2015, 10:23:57 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

A Godsend for the gun industry.

This will encourage more people to get/carry guns.

Hillary will be staying away from this issue if she has any sense. Toxic for a politician.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 10:42:42 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 04, 2015, 11:07:06 PM
San Bernadino an Act of Terrorism. Strange one.

IMHO it is a kind of Frankenstein synthesis between a local gun incident and terrorism. Yer man was a shooting enthusiast who didn't like his boss and his missus was connecting with Islamic loonies. Real terrorists might have had a different target, maybe somewhere high profile in LA. They will have done nothing for workplace relations in the US, these workers had a baby shower for these people a few months ago and they then come back and kill them.

Not necessarily. It appears that IS has changed tack from Al Qaeda and is encouraging it's operatives to hit soft targets rather than blow up the big building approach. You can see why it would be more effective as well. The general public can t feel safe anywhere anymore and will start getting very nervous.
 Hence the Godsend for the gun lobby. Ordinary people know the terrorists and assorted loonies and criminals are armed to the teeth anyway and they are told it might be better if gun laws for the general population are tightened up. How does Hillary or anybody else go about selling that? It would be political suicide.
 Those people were active/on the run for at least 2 hours? the last day before they were stopped. That in itself would alarm many people. That's a lot of killing time.
  This seems be 100% terrorism. It was premeditated. It was not a result of an incidental row. They were wearing cameras and had combat gear on. They arrived at the party with guns and bombs.
Work place dispute? you don t bring your wife with loaded assault rifles to settle a work place dispute. Nor does one leave their 6 month old baby to get killed solving a work place dispute. People are delusional if they think this was anything but a well planned, and financed terrorist attack. The only difference with Paris is less involved and this guy known to those he killed. Soft opportunistic target.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 04, 2015, 11:14:15 PM
I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 12:09:24 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 05, 2015, 12:36:38 AM
Whitey, as compelling as this argument sounds, many weapons used in killings in the US have been purchased legally.  I'm sure you've read that a couple of thousand of people on the no-fly list can still buy firearms legally.  Don't you think if they're considered too dangerous to take a flight they should be prohibited from amassing an arsenal.  According to the NY Times, the guns used in 15 recent mass shootings were bought legally, and at least 8 gunmen had criminal histories or documented mental health problems that did not prevent them from obtaining their weapons.  For the life of me, I don't understand why military grade assault rifles are readily for sale, yet marijuana is almost universally banned (another topic for another time). According to the Washington Post, over 75% ofthe weapons used in mass killings over the last 30 years had been purchased legally. 

Additionally, the world is aghast that 12 died in the Charlie Hebdo incident and 128 (I believe) in the recent Paris terrorist attack, but well over 82,000 have suffered gun deaths since Sandy Hook. 82,000 people, for crying out loud, and the response is to make guns more available rather than imposing rational common-sense regulations.

S%#t, I'm nervous about merging in traffic lest some gun-toting ass with anger issues thinks I cut him off.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 12:42:40 AM
I'm not sure about the careful planning aspect of things. They drove home after the attack, why not attack somewhere else?

An attack was premeditated, the exact one was tied into the people involved.

Well there must have been care and planning involved if they managed to make and conceal homemade bombs in their own house. Maybe you can buy guns in department stores in the US  but they hardly sell pipe bombs in Walmart.

It renders the agonising about gun laws obsolete and makes any politician that takes on the NRA look like a fool.

It also shows intelligence has failed. This will lead to more Americans buying firearms. Back in the day of McCarty and the communist scaremongering there were no Russians in the US coming to an event near you armed to the teeth. This event shows that there may be numerous cells - undetected and unexpected - that can strike anywhere, anytime. That is the ultimate terror for people.
Warfare has always evolved. The days of flying aeroplanes into buildings has gone. It has developed into a smaller focus but probably more terrifying tactic.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 12:50:03 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

And the author is completely guilty of the misconception she decries in the sentence in bold. And does not have a handle on the facts. Illegally held weapons are a constant low grade problem. The mass shooters are using legally held weapons and the people using them are not career criminals. Given these facts, the logical conclusion is to limit the supply to the general population and let the police deal with career criminals and their illegally held weapons. Unfortunately the tone of debate in America now does not give precedence to things like logic and fact.

If people in America are scared by the possibility of terrorists/Muslims/refugees/mass shooters they should consider the rest of us looking in, absolutely petrified by what we see their society and political process coming to. It's scarier out here.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on December 05, 2015, 01:03:12 AM
this latest attack will see gun sales going through the roof again ,the Nra are running adds saying when the Devils come to your church or school or home be ready to send them to paradise
Obama is a disaster as far as most people I talk to think and however crazy people might think it is they believe he is not interested in protecting them . The usa is not Europe or Asia and people don't care how many mass shootings there is they are not giving up there guns .
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 01:13:10 AM
And yet the odds of people being killed by a terrorist in the US are completely minuscule - and I remain to be convinced that the declaration of fealty on Facebok to IS makes you a fully paid up "terrorist", though I'll leave off judgement until the FBI investigation is finished.

But whatever their status, this couple were able to stock up completely legally with assault weapons and munitions and kill 14 people. The NRA are using the atrocities of their best customers to sell more guns to what Bill Hicks used to call, and now unfortunately seems to be entirely accurate, "Bovine America". Wayne LaPierre is one of the most odious creatures to have slithered his way across the national stage of the US, and now he seems intent on slouching his way towards Bethlehem.

If Americans want security at home, they need to give up their unfettered access to guns and leave the investigation and prevention of crime and terrorism to the experts. Not to a nation of concealed carry, paranoid Walter Mittys.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Oraisteach on December 05, 2015, 01:13:25 AM
Then, Gmac, it is up to you to make them understand that it has nothing to do with Obama but is the fault of an obstructionist Congress that is slave to very powerful lobbying interests, not least of which is the NRA.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 05, 2015, 01:19:51 AM
Just in case anyone thinks I'm over the top

https://www.nranews.com/series/freedoms-safest-place/video/freedoms-safest-place-demons-at-our-door/episode/freedoms-safest-place-season-1-episode-9-demons-at-our-door

To which the only sane response is - Wayne, I hate to break this to you, but you are actually Satan.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Gmac on December 05, 2015, 01:34:13 AM
Then, Gmac, it is up to you to make them understand that it has nothing to do with Obama but is the fault of an obstructionist Congress that is slave to very powerful lobbying interests, not least of which is the NRA.
there opinion is as valid as mine which is somewhere in between tbh.
The media here really try to pit one side against the other one side saying Isis attacks are around the corner the other saying the killer in San bernadihno was being teased about his beard trying to justify reasons for doing it, it's unreal
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 01:53:48 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

And the author is completely guilty of the misconception she decries in the sentence in bold. And does not have a handle on the facts. Illegally held weapons are a constant low grade problem. The mass shooters are using legally held weapons and the people using them are not career criminals. Given these facts, the logical conclusion is to limit the supply to the general population and let the police deal with career criminals and their illegally held weapons. Unfortunately the tone of debate in America now does not give precedence to things like logic and fact.

If people in America are scared by the possibility of terrorists/Muslims/refugees/mass shooters they should consider the rest of us looking in, absolutely petrified by what we see their society and political process coming to. It's scarier out here.

You ve nailed it.... except .... the general population don't use their weapons on other people and those that want to, can get guns anyway. Asgard shipment back in the day and the IRA were never short of weapons even though they were illegal. Never mind modern criminals in this country still having no difficulty getting firearms. Mobs in Chicago in the 30's had more firepower than the police. If you want weapons and you have the motive and means you can get one, regardless if you are a loonie or a terrorist on a mission. FFS the Boston bombers made a horrible improvised bomb using stuff you get in a hard ware store and a bit of chemistry they could get online.
 If the US and France can t prevent these types of attacks then forget about it.
Anyway this was not a loonie attack and like Paris has brought this game to a different level. Guns are not the problem. They are there to stay. You have as good a chance of limiting guns in the US as getting rid of TVs or mobile phones. Not going to happen so no point wasting time on that. Not a runner.
 

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 01:58:53 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: moysider on December 05, 2015, 02:15:42 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:29:38 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 05, 2015, 02:38:35 AM
Just looked it up -you get a concealed carry permit from the local sheriff. Must be a six month resident, 18 years of age at least, and have a state issued id and show you can handle a weapon aND hAve had some training. Sheriff runs a basic check and all being good, you have your permit within 60 days. Permit is only needed in towns and cities.

That's it.

Any other gun you can just go in and buy, as long as you don't appear drunk or on drugs. No background checks or licenses or permits. No records. No limits on ammo or number of weapons.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 02:43:10 AM
I've heard that you can buy/sell guns at yard sales down in TX....now that's fvckin madness!!

The fella who cuts my hair told me that he has about 20 guns. Rifles, shotguns, handguns....the lot...you name it he's got it. His view is that why should his constitutional rights be infringed upon when he has never broken any laws... "It's no ones fvckin business how many guns he has".

Anyway, these 2 w**kers out in TX also had pipe bombs, so even if they hadnt obtained firearms they would probably still have been able to kill people if they wanted.

The Marathon Bombers had pressure cooker bombs and one illegally held firearm. They killed 3 with the bombs and shot the MIT cop with the gun

I think if Obama overplays the gun angle on this one, and underplays the terrorist angle he's making a big mistake.

I don't have a gun, and I don't want one because I have kids in the house, but I know plenty who are thinking of getting one given the threat of executive action that's been rumourdd
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 05, 2015, 03:02:14 AM
http://buzzpo.com/new-york-sheriff-asks-citizens-to-carry-a-firearm-in-light-of-recent-events/?utm_content=buffer8cd51&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=positivelyrepublican

LOL...Democratic Sheriff of Ulster County asks for citizens who are licensed to carry their firearms with them at all times
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 04:41:51 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 05, 2015, 05:51:23 AM
http://buzzpo.com/new-york-sheriff-asks-citizens-to-carry-a-firearm-in-light-of-recent-events]

LOL...Democratic Sheriff of Ulster County asks for citizens who are licensed to carry their firearms with them at all times

Fecking Ulster people



This idea that you can protect yourself against terrorists by packing guns is complete and utter bollix. People cannot be allowed bring guns to concerts and the like as they could be lunatics or might just be spaced out. I've expressed doubts as to the terrorist nature of the recent event, but if gun fan like this guy went to shot his workmates he'd simply shoot those with guns first. Real terrorists would simply use bombs or the like. The attacker always has the advantage in the timing, location, choice of weapons etc. Basically your easily obtained gun might be of some use if someone else with an easily obtained gun loses the plot, against a well planned attack it is feck all use.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 05, 2015, 08:54:46 AM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Batshit, just batshit. Come on what the fk. Perspective America. Guns bad :-\
Really disturbed how some Irish ex pats slip into the narrative after a few years over there, that this is anywhere approaching a 'normal' debate.

On a side note has anyone ever smelled bat urine? Horrible piercing smell, i dont think that it could ever really leave you if you smelt it properly once. When I read your post it reminded it of it and I could actually smell it again :(
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: seafoid on December 05, 2015, 08:58:27 AM
Mental illness is a huge factor in US gun massacres. Wayne la Pierre on top and it's a mess.
But it'll never change. Violence is one of the major legacies of settler colonialism. No surprise that the Americas have the highest murder rates in the world.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 04:22:49 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 06, 2015, 04:41:20 PM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 06, 2015, 04:48:22 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 06, 2015, 05:02:01 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:32:30 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 05:36:55 PM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:52:12 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 05:54:20 PM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Theres a coffee shop next town over, and a plain clothes cop goes in there.  For some reason he always has his gun on his hip, and I always jump when I see it . I cant imagine being around numerous people at a cook out who were carrying....I think Id leave

So would I.

I don't like seeing cops carrying them either, but in some countries this is a necessary evil.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:16:27 PM
Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:24:48 PM
Check out the guns laws in the state that just had 14 killed and 27 injured, makes for some interesting reading and I am no pro gun advocate.

Can you post them up please?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 06:34:00 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:37:41 PM
"Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do."

I will translate.

I know I hold an extremist view. I know that, because no other civilised country on the planet regards this view as remotely sane. However, to disguise this massive deficiency in my position, I will now call everyone extremists. I will reset the datum of 'the middle ground' to about halfway between my lunacy and your common sense, and I present that this is the happy medium. There, now your argument, even if it is the only thing you will hear today that has an ounce of intelligence, is 'an oppositional extremist view'.

Secondly. 'I am not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do'. This means I am not naive like you. Or stupid, because you have probably not noticed the massive flaw in my argument, which is that I am arguing that there is no point in doing anything, at all. Ever. 'No matter what we do'. This logic undermines my own argument. But quiet, I am still talking. That flaw only applies you your argument.

So I can walk around with a small arsenal, have some drinks at a concert with you standing beside me, knowing that if the moment arrives, I am John Wayne. I will open fire and only the bad guys will fall. Even if they look like me, dress like me and take a beer like me. I am even better than the professionals, the cops who face threatening behaviour far more often every day, than I do in a decade. But I will get it absolutely right. Every time.

I dont agree with everything she said, but she was debating with someone who would confiscate every gun in the country if she had her way, a view that is just es extreme as hers (given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms)

This is the dogma right at the heart of the problem.

This was written into the constitution shortly after a war with the British Empire. Spain and France were also menacing colonial powers at the time, not to mention the risk of attack from the south and the various tribes of Indians. The US population at the time was 3 million. The world was a dangerous place for the fledgling country at the time. It made sense for citizens, particularly in remote areas with poor access and communications, to protect themselves.

None of the above applies now. The biggest danger to citizens in the US is either car crashes, or a gun owner who is either careless or has just had a bad day or has some sort of disorder.

It is simply incredible that one of the most popular arguments to deal with the mass-murders and high level of gun crime, is to demand a return to days of the Wild West.

Legal minds well above your and mines pay grade, have affirmed this right so unless the constitution gets amended, it's not going anywhere.

People said the same thing about gay marriage.

And condoms in Ireland.

Apartheid in SA.

Slavery.

Everything changes. The only question is when.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 06:46:12 PM
You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 06:53:25 PM
You are right muppet, change is the only constant in life, as we speak Muslim extremists are entering the USA under this Muslim centric President, a man who tells the world he is sending in a handful of his finest to work in a war zone, a man who cannot bring himself to call it what it is, extremist Muslim terrorists are trying to destroy the western way of life.

But surely they were shocked and awed by the last Republican leadership?

Surely mission was accomplished?

Let's face it Stew, you are far more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day, than by a Muslim terrorist.

But I do agree they are making some headway. The sheer terror oozing from some of your posts is evidence of that. That is the goal of terrorism and you are inadvertently aiding them, with comments like they are 'trying to destroy the western way of life' etc.

Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:08:23 PM
Muppet, it is in their DNA you cannot deny that it is Muslim extremists that attacked California and Paris can you? The c***ts want us all dead, not just us conservatives, they want you dead too dear.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 06, 2015, 07:13:35 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 08:08:29 PM
Muppet, it is in their DNA you cannot deny that it is Muslim extremists that attacked California and Paris can you? The c***ts want us all dead, not just us conservatives, they want you dead too dear.

Of course they want you dead.

And yes maybe even me too.

After all, Bush Snr bombed them back to the Iron Age.

And then his son bombed them back to the Stone Age.

Out of both of those events, mad bunches of terrorist nut jobs appeared. They will have the odd fleeting 'success' but they are no threat whatsoever to 99.9999% of us. I will live my life exactly as I would have lived it anyway.

You can scream how terrified you are, and even scream at us that we should be terrified too. But I would see that another fleeting success for the terrorists. So I couldn't be bothered worrying about them.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 06, 2015, 08:17:40 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!

Do you know how many people in the US die every year from car accidents?
Do you know how many people in the US die from non-terrorist violence?

Do you know how many people in the US die from Muslim terrorist attacks?

Seriously, do you have any idea of the numbers involved in the above?

Answers on a postcard yourself.

As for why do I focus in the right right. The Neo-Cons fought the two wars in Iraq, for no obvious reason other than to protect their oil interests. Wars always have long term consequences. ISIS is a direct consequence of your elected Neo-Cons actions in the 2nd Iraq War. Former US ally, Al Queda's war on the West was arguably a result of the 1st Iraq War.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 06, 2015, 08:35:01 PM
WTF has you are more likely to be killed by someone you pass every day than by a muslim terrorist got to do with anything,  they are stabbing people like you muppet, they are killing the weakest in western society muppet, why do you focus on the right when the extremist Muslim terrorists want to kill up ass? Answers on a postcard please!

Stew, you might want to recalibrate your hysteria meter. The extremist muslims (if it's shown that San Bernardino was indeed a Jihadist attack) have managed to kill 17 of you so far this year. Seventeen too many, but paltry by comparison with the 4481 slaughtered in mass shootings in the USA by down-home, gun-toting, second amendment beneficiaries. Even paltrier by comparison with the 1,0482 shot by the police (and no, I'm not suggesting these were all innocent - just quoting another statistic). I don't have a word to compare it with the total of 12,3133who have died in gun violence so far this year.

So if you want to be terrified, even just about mass killings, worry about your muslim neighbour 26 times less than about yer man walking out of your local gun shop with an AK47 or a bazooka or whatever is on special this week.

1. http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015 (http://shootingtracker.com/wiki/Mass_Shootings_in_2015)
2. http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2015/jun/01/the-counted-police-killings-us-database)
3. http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/ (http://www.gunviolencearchive.org/)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: omaghjoe on December 06, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Here's a conversation I pulled off a Facebook friends' page.....interesting perspective from viewpoint of a concealed carrier (in a conversation with her friend who is all for gun control)


Everyone assumes anything other than what they believe is an oppositional extremist view. I'm not naive enough to think that this stuff won't happen no matter what we do. I do however think that we have a better chance of protecting ourselves and each other if we have some way of defending ourselves in a room full of automatics weapons pointed at us. Imagine you and I are standing at a concert, Julia and Madeline in tow. They are going to try and kill all of us, execution style, regardless of what we say or do. You know I am concealed carrying and I've had the opportunity to practice and be a pretty good shot. Wouldn't you feel better knowing I could at least try to save our and our daughter's lives? I would. And whether you agree with me or not, I'll still pull it out and try to save you all, because it's my right to do that. I'm not saying we should all just have guns laying around. Gun sales on black Friday went up 4% from last year. Guess who reported that? The FBI. Because the people who are buying and concealing are doing it legally and through the system with background checks, etc. The people who are doing these shootings are extremists and/or criminals. Stricter gun laws aren't going to keep these people from obtaining guns ILLEGALLY which is what they do. DO you see my point here? Gun LAWS are for LAW ABIDING people. You know, the people who aren't breaking the law. Stricter gun laws are going to have ZERO effect on criminal use of firearms because they don't follow what? Laws. Right. Why punish the non-problem-causing, law abiding citizens by enforcing laws that don't effect the people who are the actual problem? The only effect that it has is that it makes the illegal gun owners aware of the fact that they will have little to no resistance if they attack.

But so many of these mass murderers DO get their guns legally! Isn't there some merit to tracing how many guns and rounds of ammo people buy on that basis? I wouldn't know where to begin to buy a gun in NYC, whereas when we're out west at the wife's home place I can just stroll into a sports shop to get a nice weapon and a pair of runners. How is the background and tracing stuff going to hurt the law abiding gun enthusiast?

Really? Have you actually tried to go through the process? I assume they are on display in cases? I doubt you can pick one up and carry it to the the counter and pay for it like you would a ham? I dunno? I assume you just cant buy a gun like a toy or a tin of beans?

Besides the point anyway. People that want deadly weapons get them anyway. Bans don t work and the US knows that better than anybody. Prohibition didn t turn out too well. In fact that probably contributed to the gun culture.

Not sure exactly what the rules are in her state, but it's not onerous judging by the routine nature of gun ownership there. I've been to family events where people were even open carrying. A little unnerving with small kids around, even climbing around the people packing.

I'm not advocating a ban. That ship sailed long ago.

 :o :o :o :o
Must be Arizona then?

Easy for me to say as its not my family but where you not tempted to blow town? I wouldnt want my weans around the like of that

Not Arizona, but a similar type of mindset, at least in parts of the state in question.

And yes, I was not comfortable. My, at the time, 3 year old was removed from the situation whenever he went near them.

Is this your inlaws Christmas card J70? :P




Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Rossfan on December 06, 2015, 09:30:04 PM
It's probably the Stews.
Excellent post by Hardy by the way.
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 06, 2015, 10:29:12 PM
It's probably the Stews.
Excellent post by Hardy by the way.
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.

Bottom line is that many of the murders occurr in almost exclusviely black inner city neighborhoods, where white people would never go in a million years. They are drug and gang related and by no means random. When the people who are murdered dont look like you.....many people dont care

Homicide rate for white gun mad Americans is 2.5 per 100,000

Total homicide rate in Ireland is 1.1 per 100,000


Just to give you alittle perspective

http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/black-americans-are-killed-at-12-times-the-rate-of-people-in-other-developed-countries/
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: gallsman on December 06, 2015, 11:30:47 PM
Muslim centric president ffs. Ironically, the appropriate response to that is "Jesus Christ!".
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 06, 2015, 11:39:34 PM
I think after 9/11 they should have allowed the sale of anti aircraft missiles.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: heganboy on December 07, 2015, 12:23:23 AM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

Quote
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

Quote
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.

oh and so far in 2015 26 people have been killed by lightning in the US. 22 people have been killed by cows. NRA would do well to look into this.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 07, 2015, 12:30:45 AM
Pity you hadn't the number of Syrians killed so far this year.

I should have made that point. The major statistic is that about 187,000 civilians were killed in Syria in the four-and-a-half years from March 2011 to October 2015 and that, of those, killings by the Syrian regime outnumber those by all other actors by more than an order of magnitude: http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/Who_Are_Killing_Civilians_in_Syria_en.pdf (http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english/Who_Are_Killing_Civilians_in_Syria_en.pdf)

In the context of the Jihadist killings of civilians in the West, it's worth noting that the number of of civilians killed in Syria by International Coalition forces between March 2011 and October 2015 is 251.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 07, 2015, 01:06:56 AM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

Quote
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

Quote
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.

oh and so far in 2015 26 people have been killed by lightning in the US. 22 people have been killed by cows. NRA would do well to look into this.

Interesting, but I'd be surprised if it was changed in my lifetime. 

The popluar interpretation of the second ammendment has been upheld, and some would say strengthened by recent Supreme Court rulings
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Jell 0 Biafra on December 07, 2015, 02:06:44 AM
given that its your right under the constitution to bear arms

Let me just remind every one is it is an interpretation of AN AMENDMENT to the US constitution, that is deemed to give you the right to bear arms.

And just to mess with you- there's actually a couple of versions of the amendment in question, and a lot of debate has occurred on the importance of the first part of the text referring to a well regulated militia.

this is the version that was passed by Congress and kept with the rest of the original hand-written copy of the Bill of Rights as prepared by William Lambert

Quote
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

However the version that Jefferson had ratified by the states read as below:

Quote
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed 

So that's clear as mud then and prone to the interpretation of the grammar nazis as well as everybody else. You could ask what constitutes a well regulated militia, and do people only have the right to bear arms in that militia?

Amend the amendment would seem to be the sensible idea. That happened with prohibition so there is precedent.


I think people don't know/understand what has to happen for an amendment to be repealed  It's ridiculously tough, and right now there would be nowhere near enough support in enough states (neither general population nor elected reps) for repeal of the second amendment.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: armaghniac on December 07, 2015, 03:44:09 AM
In fairness a gun could be used to stop a rogue cow. This may be an excuse for anyone near a cow.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: rrhf on December 07, 2015, 07:25:29 AM
A bit like the quran open to interpretation.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 08, 2015, 01:10:21 AM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 08, 2015, 01:54:55 AM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 01:52:33 AM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: whitey on December 10, 2015, 03:14:16 AM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Yeah....they're fvckin assholes and I'm glad they're dead
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 10, 2015, 11:04:48 AM
I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)
[/quote]

Yeah....they're fvckin assholes and I'm glad they're dead
[/quote]

Was the police officer shot in the head, yes or no?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 10, 2015, 11:25:40 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 10, 2015, 01:38:38 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:11:27 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.

I guess the Daily Mirror are in on the act as well
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314)

Who cares whether that BBC site is a fake or not, I certainly don't as that site had the uncensored version of the video and THE only reason I used it. This is the same video that mainstream media were touting as proof that a police officer was murdered, now seemingly always censured because they were caught out in the lie.

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Seamus on December 11, 2015, 02:37:38 AM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

 
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: screenexile on December 11, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 11, 2015, 09:58:56 AM
Good Jesus Seamus- it is a fake news report. They start with a BBC logo, but it is not a BBC report nor was it posted by the BBC website. They quote one "gun expert" and worst of all, when they say that "mainstream media" are now picking up on it, they post a Google page of headlines, the first one of which says "Charlie Hebdo a False Flag operation....says David Icke"!!!

In actual fact this is such a poor attempt at emulating mainstream coverage you could reasonably conclude that it is a false flag operation aimed at discrediting web theories about false flag operations. Which makes it a false flag about a false flag about a false flag, and makes you deluded for giving it any credence.

Though it probably was the lizard people in end.

I guess the Daily Mirror are in on the act as well
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314 (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/charlie-hebdo-terror-attack-sickening-4935314)

Who cares whether that BBC site is a fake or not, I certainly don't as that site had the uncensored version of the video and THE only reason I used it. This is the same video that mainstream media were touting as proof that a police officer was murdered, now seemingly always censured because they were caught out in the lie.

Seamus, here's the thing - if the angle of the bullet entering meant that there was no exit wound or an exit wound in the clothes of the officer, then there would be no blood splatter. That is called physics. And I'm not even a "gun expert".

But you see what has happened here? I've been drawn into discussing the death of a fellow human being, in a horrendous manner, as a debating point with you on an internet board. It is obvious to me that you can in no way empathise with the fate of this poor man - that you cannot concede that if there is even a chance of it being true, you are further degrading this man in death and erasing his life (what does it matter, it was a false flag, eh?)

The Daily Mail took down the video not as some part of a conspiracy that you have uncovered (in the process validating your superiority over the rest of us mindless drones) but rather to grant to this man and his family the dignity of not having the entire world see his terrible last moments. Dignity that every human being deserves.

I won't be responding to you on this matter again, but i'd recommend to everyone that they read "the Pyschopath Test" by Jon Ronson and the chapter on Rachel North, a victim of the 7/7 London bombings and her experience with internet conspiracy theorists.

Now, back on with my tinfoil hat - the lizard people are coming.



Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 11, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
I wonder why The SWAT team were on the premises within 4 minutes.  I wonder, I wonder, I wonder.......
Then again lets all fall for the official fairytale hook line and sinker and get on with our little lives.

Because they were on standby and their base was not far from the site??

Is that response time unusual or something?

I've dealt with ESU units in police. They spend their time drilling, prepping equipment and sitting around waiting.

How convenient

In what way?

I know the following is a different incident but the same people are getting the blame. Can you give me your opinion on it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04EaQApquiU)

Don't have an opinion either way on the false flag allegation regarding the Charlie Hebdo policeman murder as I've not looked at the details.

But let's assume for the minute that its true - what does that have to do with the response in San Bernadino?

There are a number of common denominators in most of the atrocities where either terrorists, a lone gunman or multiple gunmen/women are accused. Drills is one of the common denominators.

Drills?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: Hardy on December 11, 2015, 02:21:36 PM
I thought they used Kalashnikovs and the like?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: GJL on December 11, 2015, 05:16:15 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:06:45 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:11:02 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:29:44 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 06:33:19 PM
In short in relation to my last post.................................................... I believe America to be fucked and I blame the last two Presidents for it being so!
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 06:45:14 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:




That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: J70 on December 11, 2015, 07:55:45 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

I agree completely on the guns, but give it up on the "All Lives Matter" crap. The only purpose of that phrase is to diminish and delegitimize the black experience at the hands of the police over the years. Until someone produces stats showing that whites suffer the same way, its just more white resentment politics. Some idiots on BLM protests taking their rhetoric too far doesn't change that.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: easytiger95 on December 11, 2015, 08:52:08 PM
The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up

they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes

 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go


I dunno, anyone else seeing the irony here?
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: stew on December 11, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.

The NRA is likely to a major reason why the GOP is merely a visitor to The White House these days. In that regard, South Park and others who point out the lunacy of the gun laws are very relevant.

The people will NEVER give up their weapons, NEVER, it would be akin to the reaction the loyalist community would have if the Brits declared they were pulling out of Ireland, the hard liners would fight to the death to be allowed the right to bear arms, even semi automatics, a good friend of mine is one of the top surgeons in the midwest, he assures me when we argue this topic that he will never, under any circumstances give up the right to bear arms and nor will any of his family or friends.

The left in this country have allowed a generation of pussies to spring up, the students of Ivy league schools protesting about their lot, students demanding they have a say in who becomes Dean at their University, the cry of racism over anyone who tells it like it is, Black lives matter and the way the go after the cops but when a gang member shoots dead a child in a gang war in Chicago they do not protest that, why? because they are media whores looking for their five minutes like the d**khead who stared at the cop for three minutes.  The b**tards in Black lives matter were pissed off no end because they lost air time when the Paris attacks happened.

Clinton is going to be President I believe, she had an opportunity to say all lives matter, she pandered to the black vote, I was saddened by this because I thought she might have some sense of decency, she does not, black people have the right to protest but I wish they would focus on all crimes against their race, not just focus on the cops, 'fry em like bacon they say' Repugnant stuff, hate speech that this mealy mouthed facker of a President lets go.

Back to guns, this country was formed on the right to bear arms, guns have always played a huge role in the United States, NRA men say that their dads taught them how to shoot and how to treat a gun, they hunted in freezing weather, playing cards and drinking Beer in a cabin with friends and built memories like killing their first deer and their grandfather taught the father, it is ingrained in these people and there is no winning them over, simple as that.

Unionists said they would never go into Government with Sinn Féin. That changed.

France was a monarchy just like Britain. That changed.

People fought a Civil War in the US to (among other reasons) defend the right to own slaves. That changed.

The Republic of Ireland was a completely Catholic Country:




That thankfully has changed.

If we were all born Conservatives, we would still be living in caves. Things always change.

I was not born a conservative, in fact my favorite politician in Britain was, and always will be Tony Benn. I came over to this country a democrat, having live in the states and not just pontificated about the Country like many on here I changed based on  life experiences I had over a period of 20 years.

You are right things do change but do you really think the Loyalists would accept a United Ireland?

If you live to be a hundred, you will never ever see weapons taken out of the hands of the people in the United States of America, never! Even if the law changes the people will rise up and fight that change, just as the constitution tells them to when they consider the Government interferes with their rights.

It's called diversity, both in people and in critical thinking of the leaders elected by the people, you need liberals, you need conservatives, you do not seem able to grasp that concept, like a caveman you seem to equate Liberal good Conservative bad, if so I am glad you are not in office.
Title: Re: America`s Gun Culture
Post by: muppet on December 11, 2015, 09:08:56 PM
South Park destroyed the Gun Lobby again the other night. . . great stuff!!

Any links?

South park is irrelevant on Gun control, we can debate Gun control all day long but in the end, the NRA are too powerful and will prevail.
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