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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 02:05:36 PM

Title: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 02:05:36 PM
With the recent overthrow of the western backed dictator in Tunisia, and mass protests breaking out in Jordan, Yemen, Egypt and Algeria, against the dictators imposed upon them by the west, so too are things changing in Lebannon with a new Hezbollah led Government about to be installed.

Today, mass protests are been staged all across Egypt, with Cairo been brought to a standstill. Mubarak's days are numbered, and it wont be long before he is seeking refuge in Saudi (who also gave refuge to Idi Amen) along with his fellow Tunisian dictator,

Coupled with the leak of over 1,600 documents by Al Jazeera and the continued leaks by Wikileaks on the facts around Israel/US refusing a peace settlement with the Palestinians, we are seeing a massive change in the middle east.

With the US led illegal invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq now proven to be a disaster, with over 1 million people dead, and millions more displaced, what does the future hold for the middle east now? If free and democratic elections are held throughout the middle east, how will it shape foriegn policy of western countries?

We are truely living in interesting times........
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 02:15:39 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/24/hezbollah-backed-candidate-lebanon-pm

The prospect of a Hezbollah-led government in Lebanon now appears certain after a Syrian-backed businessman emerged from a crucial political summit with the numbers needed to lead the turbulent state.

A narrow majority of 65 of the Lebanese parliament's 128 members indicated their support for telecommunications tycoon Najib Miqati, which means that the ousting of Saad Hariri as prime minister of the US-allied government will soon be formalised.

The high-stakes talks were convened after the Hezbollah-led opposition walked out of a tenuous coalition government two weeks ago, forcing a political crisis with the potential to rupture already brittle sectarian fault-lines.

The support for Miqati means Hariri cannot secure the majority needed to hang on to the narrow mandate he won 18 months ago.

Today Hariri said he and his bloc would not take part in a Hezbollah-led government. Hariri was appointed caretaker prime minister just under two weeks ago, shortly after 11 Hezbollah-aligned ministers abandoned his government, causing it to fall.

Street demonstrations are tonightnight being staged in Sunni areas of Beirut, as well as Tripoli in north Lebanon and Sidon in the south. Tyres were burnt and roads and highways blocked in scenes that have stirred the ghosts of numerous past conflicts and spark fears of a return to sectarian chaos. Protests spread quickly after nightfall, but there were no reports of deaths, or injuries. Security forces seemed reluctant to intervene.

A member of parliament from Hariri's bloc, Khaled Dahar said: "We announce our rejection of the candidate backed by the 'party of arms' [referring to Hezbollah]. What was plotted was a coup by a group that didn't respect the voters' freedom by relying on its weapons to threaten all Lebanese.

"We call on those who reject the Persian scheme in this defiant Arab country to stage a sit-in tomorrow ... in Tripoli," Dahar said, according to the Naharnet website.

Violence had been widely predicted in Lebanon for the past five months as criminal indictments were prepared for delivery to an international tribunal investigating the assassination of former prime minister, Rafiq Hariri.

The indictments are widely tipped to implicate members of Hezbollah, which has vowed to discredit them. If asked to form a government by Lebanon's president, Michel Suleiman, Miqati will come under intense pressure to carry out Hezbollah's demands that Lebanon withdraw all co-operation with the Hague-based Special Tribunal for Lebanon.

Miqati last week travelled to Damascus to meet Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, who has been widely consulted by Lebanese MPs on events in their homeland. Druze leader Walid Jumblatt is another to have sought a hearing with the Syrian president. Six members of Jumblatt's 11-seat bloc on the Lebanese parliament confirmed today that they would align with Miqati.

The ousting of Hariri is a sharp blow to US interests in the Middle East. His government was toppled at the same time as he met Barack Obama in the White House, prompting the US to threaten to withdraw aid money from Lebanon.

Diplomats from Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia last week embarked on intense, but apparently unsuccessful rounds of shuttle diplomacy, trying to find a way out of an ever-escalating crisis that could sharply destabilise an already fragile region.

Israel has reacted with alarm at the latest developments, claiming a Hezbollah takeover will consolidate Iranian influence on its northern border.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 02:19:43 PM
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112511362207742.html

Hundreds of protesters have begun to take to the streets in Cairo, the Egyptian capital, chanting slogans against the police, the interior minister and the government, in scenes that the capital has not seen since the 1970s, Al Jazeera's correspondent reported.

Downtown Cairo has come to a standstill, and protesters are now marching towards the headquarters of the ruling National Democracy Party.

"It is unprecedented for security forces to let people march like this without trying to stop them," Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh reported from the site of the protest.

The Egyptian government had earlier warned activists hoping to emulate Tunisian pro-democracy protesters that they face arrest if they go ahead with Tuesday's mass demonstrations, which some have labelled as the "Day of wrath".

The protesters are gathering outside Cairo's largest courthouse, and are marching across downtown Cairo.

The rallies have been promoted online by groups saying they speak for young Egyptians frustrated by the kind of poverty and oppression which triggered the overthrow of Tunisia's president.

Black-clad riot police, backed by armoured vehicles and fire engines, have been deployed in a massive security operation in Cairo, with the biggest concentrations at likely flashpoints, including: the Cairo University campus, the central Tahrir Square and the courthouse where protesters are said to be gathering.

Coinciding with a national holiday in honour of the police, a key force in keeping president Hosni Mubarak in power for 30 years, the outcome in Egypt on Tuesday is seen as a test of whether vibrant Web activism can translate into street action.

Organisers have called for a "day of revolution against torture, poverty, corruption and unemployment".

"Activists said they wanted to use this particular day to highlight the irony of celebrating Egypt's police at a time when police brutality is making headlines," reported Rawya Rageh, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Cairo.

"In fact, the call originated from a Facebook page initially set up to honour a 28-year-old man from Alexandria who activists say was tortured to death by police.

"Witnesses are telling us that there are hundreds on the streets. This is an indication that the protests seem so far to be larger than the usual protests that have taken place here in Egypt over the past few years."

Banned demonstrations

"The security apparatus will deal firmly and decisively with any attempt to break the law," the government's director for security in the capital Cairo said in a statement released ahead of the protests.

Since Egypt bans demonstrations without prior permission, and as opposition groups say they have been denied such permits, any protesters may be detained.

Habib el-Adli, the interior minister, has issued orders to "arrest any persons expressing their views illegally".

"I tell the public that this Facebook call comes from the youth," Adli said in an interview published by the state-owned newspaper al Ahram.

"Youth street action has no impact and security is capable of deterring any acts outside the law," he said, adding that he welcomed "stationary protests held for limited periods of time" and that police would protect the protesters.

"Beginning of the end"

"Our protest on the 25th is the beginning of the end," wrote organisers of a Facebook group with 87,000 followers.

"It is the end of silence, acquiescence and submission to what is happening in our country. It will be the start of a new page in Egypt's history, one of activism and demanding our rights."

Rights watchdog Amnesty International has urged Egypt's authorities "to allow peaceful protests".

Protests in Egypt, the biggest Arab state and a keystone Western ally in the Middle East, tend to be poorly attended and are often quashed swiftly by the police, who prevent marching.

The banned Muslim Brotherhood, seen as having Egypt's biggest grassroots opposition network, has not called on members to take part but said some would join in a personal capacity.

Organisers have called for protesters to not display political or religious affiliations at demonstrations. The Facebook page says: "Today is for all Egyptians."

Commenting on the wave of public unrest in Tunisia, Adli, the interior minister, said talk that the "Tunisian model" could work in other Arab countries was "propaganda" and had been dismissed by politicians as "intellectual immaturity".

"Young people are very excited, and this time there will be much more than any other time," Ahmed Maher, one of the founders of the opposition youth movement said.

"This is going to be a real test of whether online activism in Egypt can translate into real action," Al Jazeera's Rageh reported.

"Anger has been on the rise in Egypt for the past couple of years, but we have seen similar calls fizzle out. The main difference now is that these calls are coming after what happened in Tunisia, which seems to have not only inspired activists, but actually ordinary Egyptians, a dozen of whom we have seen set themselves on fire in copycat self-immolations similar to the one that had sparked the uprising in Tunisia."

Sympathisers across the world have said they plan to protest in solidarity. In Kuwait, security forces detained three Egyptians on Monday for distributing flyers for the protests, while large demonstrations have also been planned outside the Egyptian embassies in Washington, DC, and London.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on January 25, 2011, 02:22:13 PM
i see in the paper that the Israeli backed inquiry into the massacare on the boat, led by David Trimble (the enquiry that is) have cleared Israel of any wrong doing - there's a shock  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on January 25, 2011, 02:23:32 PM
Be careful what you wish for dixie, in the middle east you have some of the most ruthless fcukers that ever lived in places of power, you are very naive in your thinking, get the yanks out and all will be well, these fcukers, when they have no enemy outside of the region tend to fight internally, they murder their own innocents without pause for thought and dont get me started on women and what happens them when the yanks pull out.

I agree the Israelis are a disgrace in the way they have dealt with the palestinians and yes the yanks back them and hopefully both come to their senses and get something done soon.

You area a hater of the US with absolutely no balance whatsoever and that weakens your argument, there is plenty to despise and to loathe on the other side of the fence as well, you dont tend to see that. Shame.






With the recent overthrow of the western backed dictator in Tunisia, and mass protests breaking out in Jordan, Yemen, Egypt and Algeria, against the dictators imposed upon them by the west, so too are things changing in Lebannon with a new Hezbollah led Government about to be installed.

Today, mass protests are been staged all across Egypt, with Cairo been brought to a standstill. Mubarak's days are numbered, and it wont be long before he is seeking refuge in Saudi (who also gave refuge to Idi Amen) along with his fellow Tunisian dictator,

Coupled with the leak of over 1,600 documents by Al Jazeera and the continued leaks by Wikileaks on the facts around Israel/US refusing a peace settlement with the Palestinians, we are seeing a massive change in the middle east.

With the US led illegal invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq now proven to be a disaster, with over 1 million people dead, and millions more displaced, what does the future hold for the middle east now? If free and democratic elections are held throughout the middle east, how will it shape foriegn policy of western countries?

We are truely living in interesting times........
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on January 25, 2011, 02:26:43 PM
i see in the paper that the Israeli backed inquiry into the massacare on the boat, led by David Trimble (the enquiry that is) have cleared Israel of any wrong doing - there's a shock  ::)
[/quote

A predictable disgrace, no way he had the stones nor the moral fibre to call a spade a spade. Collusion in politics, who'd have thought. ???
]

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 02:43:59 PM
Be careful what you wish for dixie, in the middle east you have some of the most ruthless fcukers that ever lived in places of power, you are very naive in your thinking, get the yanks out and all will be well, these fcukers, when they have no enemy outside of the region tend to fight internally, they murder their own innocents without pause for thought and dont get me started on women and what happens them when the yanks pull out.

I totally agree with you Stew that "in the middle east you have some of the most ruthless fcukers that ever lived in places of power". However, these very people, like Mubarak, Karzi, Bouteflika, Abbas, Netanyahu, etc, etc, are fully backed, financed, and supported by the US and it's allies in the west.

Coupled with the fact that over 1 million people have died in the past 10 years due to the illegal invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, i'm sure that the new democratically elected leaders in the middle east wont be as bad.


I agree the Israelis are a disgrace in the way they have dealt with the palestinians and yes the yanks back them and hopefully both come to their senses and get something done soon.

You area a hater of the US with absolutely no balance whatsoever and that weakens your argument, there is plenty to despise and to loathe on the other side of the fence as well, you dont tend to see that. Shame.






With the recent overthrow of the western backed dictator in Tunisia, and mass protests breaking out in Jordan, Yemen, Egypt and Algeria, against the dictators imposed upon them by the west, so too are things changing in Lebannon with a new Hezbollah led Government about to be installed.

Today, mass protests are been staged all across Egypt, with Cairo been brought to a standstill. Mubarak's days are numbered, and it wont be long before he is seeking refuge in Saudi (who also gave refuge to Idi Amen) along with his fellow Tunisian dictator,

Coupled with the leak of over 1,600 documents by Al Jazeera and the continued leaks by Wikileaks on the facts around Israel/US refusing a peace settlement with the Palestinians, we are seeing a massive change in the middle east.

With the US led illegal invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq now proven to be a disaster, with over 1 million people dead, and millions more displaced, what does the future hold for the middle east now? If free and democratic elections are held throughout the middle east, how will it shape foriegn policy of western countries?

We are truely living in interesting times........
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on January 25, 2011, 02:53:17 PM
I agree the Israelis are a disgrace in the way they have dealt with the palestinians and yes the yanks back them and hopefully both come to their senses and get something done soon.

You area a hater of the US with absolutely no balance whatsoever and that weakens your argument, there is plenty to despise and to loathe on the other side of the fence as well, you dont tend to see that. Shame.

Surely you mean "the muslims"?  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2011, 03:08:22 PM
"the landscape" is not changing other than for housing development
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2011, 03:10:19 PM
Be careful what you wish for dixie, in the middle east you have some of the most ruthless fcukers that ever lived in places of power, you are very naive in your thinking, get the yanks out and all will be well, these fcukers, when they have no enemy outside of the region tend to fight internally, they murder their own innocents without pause for thought and dont get me started on women and what happens them when the yanks pull out.

I agree the Israelis are a disgrace in the way they have dealt with the palestinians and yes the yanks back them and hopefully both come to their senses and get something done soon.

You area a hater of the US with absolutely no balance whatsoever and that weakens your argument, there is plenty to despise and to loathe on the other side of the fence as well, you dont tend to see that. Shame.







They said the same about the Irish people in the 1800s, Stew. Israel and the US have been a disaster. 10 wars,
millions of refugees, no stability. Let the people of the region decide their own future for a change. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on January 25, 2011, 03:43:15 PM
I agree the Israelis are a disgrace in the way they have dealt with the palestinians and yes the yanks back them and hopefully both come to their senses and get something done soon.

You area a hater of the US with absolutely no balance whatsoever and that weakens your argument, there is plenty to despise and to loathe on the other side of the fence as well, you dont tend to see that. Shame.

Surely you mean "the muslims"?  ::)

I mean the Palestinians, yes they are Muslims, what the feck has that got to do with anything?????
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on January 25, 2011, 03:58:14 PM
With the recent overthrow of the western backed dictator in Tunisia, and mass protests breaking out in Jordan, Yemen, Egypt and Algeria, against the dictators imposed upon them by the west, so too are things changing in Lebannon with a new Hezbollah led Government about to be installed.

Today, mass protests are been staged all across Egypt, with Cairo been brought to a standstill. Mubarak's days are numbered, and it wont be long before he is seeking refuge in Saudi (who also gave refuge to Idi Amen) along with his fellow Tunisian dictator,

Coupled with the leak of over 1,600 documents by Al Jazeera and the continued leaks by Wikileaks on the facts around Israel/US refusing a peace settlement with the Palestinians, we are seeing a massive change in the middle east.

With the US led illegal invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq now proven to be a disaster, with over 1 million people dead, and millions more displaced, what does the future hold for the middle east now? If free and democratic elections are held throughout the middle east, how will it shape foriegn policy of western countries?

We are truely living in interesting times........

How long do you think it'll take the Yanks to turn the heads of the latest incumbents to power?

A few US dollars will go a long way to buy 'friends' in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 04:31:36 PM
http://english.ahram.org.eg/News/4816.aspx

Thousands of demonstrators took to the streets today to take part in nationwide protests.

Since early this morning, Central Security Forces vehicles, prisoner trucks, riot police and police dogs have been trying to control protestors hoping to congregate in four pre-arranged locations in Cairo’s Shubra neighborhood, Mataria district, and in front of Cairo University and in the Gamat El Dowal Street in Mohandeseen. Additional protests are scheduled in nine other governorates.

At 10:00 am, the streets of Cairo were hauntingly quiet. But slowly reports of protests began to spread. Just before noon, a number of protestors were heard chanting "Bread and Freedom," at the district of Dar El Salam, according to Gamal Eid, head of the Arabic Network for Human Rights. Security forces managed to disperse the protesters less than one hour later.

At the same time, it was reported that 300 protestors were demonstrating in Rafah, in the Sinai.

Back in Cairo, in the suburbs of Dar Al-Salam and Maadi, youth marched around, chanting "Our blood, Our souls. We'll sacrifice for you, our country."

Meanwhile, there were reports of protests taking off in Moharram Bek in Alexandria, but were denied by an Ahram Online reporter. A couple of hours later a demonstration broke out in the city's Asafra district. An Ahram Online reporter said that the demonstrators were carrying Egyptian flags and chanting against the emergency law.

While no protests were reported in downtown Cairo early in the morning, at around noon 100 protesters began a demonstration in front of the lawyers syndicate in Ramses Street, where they chanted against the interior minister. Then, more than a thousand protesters reached Abdel Moneim Riyadh Square in downtown Cairo. The police shut down Ramses Street and banned entry to Lazoughli square, next to the interior ministry.

An Ahram Online reporter witnessed a march of at least 2000 protesters heading towards Tahrir square in downtown Cairo.

More than a thousand protested in front of the Mustafa Mahmoud Mosque in Mohandseen, while several marched in Masr El Qadeema. In Shubra, 500 protestors congregated and marched around the suburb, while hundreds more demonstrated against the National Democratic Party headquarters on the Nile Corniche. Marchers also reached the Foreign Ministry on the Nile Corniche.

In the northern Egypt, former MP Hamdeen Sabahi led another protest in the Port Said Square in Balteem, Kafr El Sheikh.

According to the Egyptian Center for Economic and Social Rights, 25 were arrested in Assiut and Tanta. There have been a few clashes between protestors and riot police.

In Alexandria, thousands protest in Sidi Beshr area.

Sporadic riots have also broken out in Mahallah, Aswan, Suez, Baltim, and in Mansoura.

Back in downtown Cairo thousands of protesters have taken over to Tahrir square.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on January 25, 2011, 06:52:00 PM
Surely you mean "the muslims"?  ::)

I mean the Palestinians, yes they are Muslims, what the feck has that got to do with anything?????
Nothing really but you're happy enough to use that sweeping categorization in the Moscow bomb thread.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2011, 07:00:59 PM
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/20111251711053608.html

The United States believes "the Egyptian government is stable," despite stunning protests calling for the ouster of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak, US secretary of state Hillary Clinton said on Tuesday.

Clinton's comments on Tuesday came after thousands of Egyptians, inspired by Tunisian demonstrators, gathered in Cairo and towns across the country calling for reforms and demanding an end to Mubarak's presidency, which has now lasted for nearly three decades.

Thousands of demonstrators attended the anti-government protests. Some in downtown Cairo hurled rocks and climbed atop an armoured police truck.

In a statement issued Tuesday night, the Egyptian interior ministry blamed the Muslim Brotherhood, the country's technically banned but largest opposition group, for fomenting the protests.

Police responded to the demonstraters blasts from a water cannon, and set upon crowds with batons and acrid clouds of tear gas to clear them crying out "Down with Mubarak'' and demanding an end to the country's grinding poverty.

Police have also used rubber bullets against protesters, with some injuries, reported Rawya Rageh, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Cairo.

Clinton urged all sides in Egypt to exercise restraint following the street protests, saying she believed the government was looking for ways to respond to its populations concerns.

But at least 30 people are already reported to have been arrested in Cairo, official sources said.

More protests

Protests also broke out in the Mediterranean city of Alexandria, the Nile Delta cities of Mansura and Tanta and in the southern cities of Aswan and Assiut, witnesses reported.

The rallies had been promoted online by groups saying they speak for young Egyptians frustrated by the kind of poverty and oppression which triggered the overthrow of Tunisia's president.

Egyptian blogger Hossam El Hamalawy said technology was important in facilitating "the domino effect" needed for demonstrations like this one to progress.

Mamdouh Khayrat, 23, travelled from the governorate of Qalubiya to attend protests in Cairo. He spoke to Al Jazeera's Adam Makary. "We want a functioning government, we want Mubarak to step down, we don't want emergency law, we don't want to live under this kind of oppression anymore," he said.

"Enough is enough, things have to change and if Tunisia can do it, why can't we?" Khayrat added.

El Hamalawy told Al Jazeera the protests were necessary "to send a message to the Egyptian regime that Mubarak is no different than Ben Ali and we want him to leave too".

On Tuesday downtown Cairo came to a standstill with protesters chanting slogans and marching towards what Al Jazeera's Rageh called the "symbols of their complaints and their agony," the headquarters of the ruling National Democratic Party, the foreign ministry and the state television.

Scenes such as these have not been seen in the capital since the 1970s.

A day of revolution

Black-clad riot police, backed by armoured vehicles and fire engines, have been deployed in a massive security operation in Cairo, with the biggest concentrations and likely flashpoints, including: the Cairo University campus, the central Tahrir Square and the courthouse where protesters are said to be gathering.

Coinciding with a national holiday in honour of the police, a key force in keeping president Mubarak in power for 30 years, the outcome in Egypt on Tuesday is seen as a test on whether vibrant Web activism can translate into street action.

Organisers have called for a "day of revolution against torture, poverty, corruption and unemployment".

"Activists said they wanted to use this particular day to highlight the irony of celebrating Egypt's police at a time when police brutality is making headlines," Al Jazeera's Rageh reported.

Banned demonstrations

The Egyptian government had earlier warned protesters.

"The security apparatus will deal firmly and decisively with any attempt to break the law," the government's director for security in the capital Cairo said in a statement released ahead of the protests.

Since Egypt bans demonstrations without prior permission, opposition groups say they have been denied such permits, any protesters may be detained.

Habib el-Adli, the interior minister, had earlier issued orders to "arrest any persons expressing their views illegally".

"Beginning of the end"

Activists have been relying heavily on social networks to organise the protests.

"Our protest on the 25th is the beginning of the end," wrote organisers of a Facebook group with 87,000 followers.

"People are fed up of Mubarak and of his dictatorship and of his torture chambers and of his failed economic policies. If Mubarak is not overthrown tomorrow then it will be the day after. If its not the day after its going to be next week," El Hamalawy told Al Jazeera.

Rights watchdog Amnesty International has urged Egypt's authorities "to allow peaceful protests".

Protests in Egypt, the biggest Arab state and a keystone Western ally in the Middle East, tend to be poorly attended and are often quashed swiftly by the police, who prevent marching.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 27, 2011, 10:31:24 AM
Egyptian police arrest 1,000 in violent clashes

By Catrina Stewart
Thursday, 27 January 2011

Egyptian officials last night confirmed two people had been killed in a fresh wave of anti-government protests in central Cairo.

Security sources said that a protester and a policeman died after being hit by a car during a clash in a poor neighbourhood. It brings the total number of people killed to six in two days of demonstrations against President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year regime.

News of the deaths came as the brother of political reform campaigner Mohamed ElBaradei confirmed he would return to Egypt on Thursday. ElBaradei is a vocal advocate of reform in Egyptian politics and a figurehead for many of the activists who organised the protests.

Egyptian police used tear gas, beatings and live ammunition fired into the air to quell those attempting to stage a repeat of the demonstrations that a day earlier brought tens of thousands of people on to the streets .

Nearly 1,000 people were arrested across Egypt yesterday as police mounted a coordinated crackdown using tear gas and beatings. The previous day up to 20,000 people joined marches across the nation that resulted in violent clashes, leaving a policeman and three protesters dead.

The authorities earlier declared a ban on any more protests in an effort to control an angry electorate, emboldened by street riots that sparked a revolt earlier this month in Tunisia. "All of Egypt must move, at one time," a Facebook group organising the demonstrations said yesterday, calling on Egyptians to come out for a second day of national protests. By the afternoon, access to Facebook along with Twitter appeared to be blocked.

The biggest demonstrations that Egypt has seen in more than three decades swept across the country on Tuesday in response to corruption, heavy-handed rule and deteriorating economic conditions. Inspired by the events in Tunisia that deposed President Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali after 23 years in power, thousands defied the wrath of the authorities to march.

Similar protests, although much smaller in scale, have rattled leaders across the Arab world, where authoritarian rulers have reigned with an iron fist for decades, feared for their often ruthless suppression of political expression.

In the town of Suez, where three protesters were killed on Tuesday, hundreds of demonstrators descended on the morgue, demanding the release of one of the bodies for autopsy amid claims that he had been killed by live fire. "The government has killed my son," the Suez protesters chanted. "Oh Habib, tell your master, your hands are soiled with our blood," they said, referring to Interior Minister Habib al-Adli.

Protesters in Cairo and elsewhere defied the government ban, with roughly 3,000 gathering outside a Cairo court before they were broken up by police using riot trucks. Outside the Journalists' Union, police used batons to beat protesters who attempted to breach their cordons, while others chanted: "Mubarak is leaving, leaving. Oh Egyptian people, be brave and join us."

Every time that demonstrations grew in size, they were charged by riot police with helmets and shields. By the evening, protesters were fighting back, throwing stones and burning tyres.

The emotive street scenes come as Mr Mubarak, 82, heads towards new presidential elections this autumn, where he is expected to stand for a sixth consecutive term.

In the past year, there have been isolated outbursts of anger against the regime, focused around police brutality, poverty, and rising food prices and unemployment, similar to the grievances that sparked riots in Tunisia. In November, parliamentary elections were widely denounced as fraudulent.

Many have directed their anger at Mr Mubarak, who has held power in Egypt since 1981.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 27, 2011, 10:39:30 AM
Robert Fisk: A new truth dawns on the Arab world

Leaked Palestinian files have put a region in revolutionary mood


Wednesday, 26 January 2011

The Palestine Papers are as damning as the Balfour Declaration. The Palestinian "Authority" – one has to put this word in quotation marks – was prepared, and is prepared to give up the "right of return" of perhaps seven million refugees to what is now Israel for a "state" that may be only 10 per cent (at most) of British mandate Palestine.

And as these dreadful papers are revealed, the Egyptian people are calling for the downfall of President Mubarak, and the Lebanese are appointing a prime minister who will supply the Hezbollah. Rarely has the Arab world seen anything like this.

To start with the Palestine Papers, it is clear that the representatives of the Palestinian people were ready to destroy any hope of the refugees going home.
It will be – and is – an outrage for the Palestinians to learn how their representatives have turned their backs on them. There is no way in which, in the light of the Palestine Papers, these people can believe in their own rights.

They have seen on film and on paper that they will not go back. But across the Arab world – and this does not mean the Muslim world – there is now an understanding of truth that there has not been before.

It is not possible any more, for the people of the Arab world to lie to each other. The lies are finished. The words of their leaders – which are, unfortunately, our own words – have finished. It is we who have led them into this demise. It is we who have told them these lies. And we cannot recreate them any more.

In Egypt, we British loved democracy. We encouraged democracy in Egypt – until the Egyptians decided that they wanted an end to the monarchy. Then we put them in prison. Then we wanted more democracy. It was the same old story. Just as we wanted Palestinians to enjoy democracy, providing they voted for the right people, we wanted the Egyptians to love our democratic life. Now, in Lebanon, it appears that Lebanese "democracy" must take its place. And we don't like it.

We want the Lebanese, of course, to support the people who we love, the Sunni Muslim supporters of Rafiq Hariri, whose assassination – we rightly believe – was orchestrated by the Syrians. And now we have, on the streets of Beirut, the burning of cars and the violence against government.

And so where are we going? Could it be, perhaps, that the Arab world is going to choose its own leaders? Could it be that we are going to see a new Arab world which is not controlled by the West? When Tunisia announced that it was free, Mrs Hillary Clinton was silent. It was the crackpot President of Iran who said that he was happy to see a free country. Why was this?

In Egypt, the future of Hosni Mubarak looks ever more distressing. His son, may well be his chosen successor. But there is only one Caliphate in the Muslim world, and that is Syria. Hosni's son is not the man who Egyptians want. He is a lightweight businessman who may – or may not – be able to rescue Egypt from its own corruption.

Hosni Mubarak's security commander, a certain Mr Suleiman who is very ill, may not be the man. And all the while, across the Middle East, we are waiting to see the downfall of America's friends. In Egypt, Mr Mubarak must be wondering where he flies to. In Lebanon, America's friends are collapsing. This is the end of the Democrats' world in the Arab Middle East. We do not know what comes next. Perhaps only history can answer this question.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 27, 2011, 10:43:06 PM
Egypt braces itself for biggest day of protests yet

Pressure builds on the president, Hosni Mubarak, as banned Muslim Brotherhood backs protests
 
Egypt's president, Hosni Mubarak, will face escalating challenges on all fronts tomorrow, with Cairo expecting the biggest day yet of street protests and Mohamed ElBaradei, one of his fiercest critics, calling explicitly for a "new regime" on his return to Cairo.

Redoubling the sense of crisis for 82-year-old Mubarak, who has ruled for the past three decades, the outlawed Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's most potent opposition force, said it was backing the latest call for demonstrations scheduled to follow Friday prayers.

ElBaradei, the former UN nuclear inspector who plans to join tomorrow's marches, arrived tonight at Cairo's airport to a media scrum and a heavy presence from the country's state security. He said he had come because "this is a critical time in the life of Egypt and I have come to participate with the Egyptian people".

Dozens of barriers manned by plainclothes state security officers had been erected in the airport to stop the public from mobbing ElBaradei, but they proved no match for the media scrum as the 68-year-old emerged with his wife. "Will you be on the streets tomorrow?" screamed one journalist. "Doctor ElBaradei, the people of Egypt need you tomorrow," shouted a bystander in Arabic.

Speaking to reporters earlier as he set off from Vienna, ElBaradei said he was seeking regime change and was ready to lead the opposition movement.

"The regime has not been listening," he said. "If people, in particular young people – if they want me to lead the transition, I will not let them down. My priority … is to see a new regime and to see a new Egypt through peaceful transition.

"I advise the government to listen to the people and not to use violence. There's no going back. I hope the regime stops violence, stops detaining people, stops torturing people. This will be completely counterproductive."

Aside from the journalists, only a few well-wishers turned out to greet the Nobel peace-prize winner – a far cry from the scenes of last February when ElBaradei was met by more than 1,000 supporters on his triumphant return.

Ahmed el-Sherif, a 24-year-old dentist, said: "We are all Egyptians, and it's our duty to receive ElBaradei in Egypt. We need him to lead us in the change we want, for the regime to fall and Mubarak to leave and for a new, free Egypt to be born."

Sherif rejected criticisms that ElBaradei had been too timid in the runup to this week's protests. "It's not his job to be protesting on the streets, it's our job. The people of Egypt will make the change from below, not ElBaradei. His role is to be a leader, a figurehead for what comes after, because that's what we're lacking at the moment. We do our job first, then he will do his. I completely agree with what he says about the state of our country and what we need to do to change it, and many people my age feel the same."

ElBaradei arrived as violent protests continued in many parts of the country, including the port of Suez, where a cloud of black smoke was seen over the city.

In an interview with CNN before his return, ElBaradei poured scorn on comments by the US secretary of state, Hillary Clinton, who had described the Egyptian government as stable and "looking for ways to respond to the legitimate needs and interests of the Egyptian people".

"I was stunned to hear secretary Clinton saying the Egyptian government is stable. And I ask myself at what price is stability? Is it on the basis of 29 years of martial law? Is it on the basis of 30 years of [an] ossified regime? Is it on the basis of rigged elections? That's not stability, that's living on borrowed time," said ElBaradei.

"When you see today almost over 100,000 young people getting desperate, going to the streets, asking for their basic freedom, I expected to hear from secretary Clinton stuff like 'democracy, human rights, basic freedom' – all the stuff the US is standing for," he said.

The Muslim Brotherhood is throwing its weight behind protests after four days in which six have died and almost 1,000 have been rounded up by police. Mohammed Mursi, a leader of the group, said: "We are not pushing this movement, but we are moving with it. We don't wish to lead it but we want to be part of it."

Organisers of tomorrow's marches – dubbed "the Friday of anger and freedom" – are defying a government ban on protests issued on Wednesday. They have been using social media to co-ordinate, and hope to rally even more than the tens of thousands who turned out on Tuesday in the biggest protests since 1977.

In a sign of its anxiety, the regime issued a warning to all mosques advising against "spreading confusion or the circulation of unfounded rumours".

In a clumsy attempt to head off the rebellion, Egypt's ruling party said today it was "ready for a dialogue" but offered no concessions to address demands for a solution to rampant poverty and political change.Officials from Mubarak's National Democratic party denied rumours that have been swirling for several days that Mubarak's son Gamal, who some believe is being groomed to take over from his father, had fled the country.

In a sign that the regime will be confronted by a huge turnout, the prime minister, Ahmed Nazif, urged citizens to exercise self control. There will also be a massive turnout by police, who have viciously tried to stamp out the rebellion.

The growing political uncertainty saw Cairo's stock market crash by 10% today, with trading suspended for a while, following a fall of 6% the day before.

Mubarak's position has been further undermined by the implicit criticism by senior Arab political figures attending the Davos Economic Forum, including his former foreign minister Amr Moussa, who is now head of the Arab League.

Moussa told the forum yesterday that a wave of unrest across the Arab world since the Tunisian uprising highlighted the need for democratic reforms. "The Arab citizen is angry, is frustrated," Moussa said. "So, the name of the game is reform."

Former Saudi Arabian intelligence chief Prince Turki al-Faisal told the Davos gathering the same day that "even Egyptian officials" are now admitting that their society is in a moment of flux.

In a further indication of the seismic shocks in the region, tens of thousands of people called for the removal of Yemen's president, Ali Abdullah Saleh, who has been in power for 32 years, in protests across the country
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 27, 2011, 11:17:31 PM
What do the democrats in the USA and Israel think of this terrible dictatorship being overthrown by a popular rising? Probably the same as they felt when the shah was overthrown in Iran - not very happy to see a nasty but helpful friend bite the dust.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 27, 2011, 11:37:27 PM
There is no doubt that US/Isarel are feeling the heat right now on this. For 30+ years they didn't give a fiddlers about the people been downtrodden, and it's laughable for them to now come out and ask for political reform.

I wonder will the US ask their very close friends in Saudi to hand over Ben Ali now that there is an international arrest warrant issued for him? Will the same witch hunt be on for his arrest as we saw recently for Julian Assagne?

They used to say that empires were measured in centuries, and now they are measured in decades.
This surely is the beginning of the end of the US/Israel empire in the middle east. Their days are numbered, their military have been defeated, and no amount of money they can throw at these dictators will protect their empire now.

The people in South America spoke, and sent them packing in the past 10 years. Now the people in the middle east are speaking, and the bags are been packed.

Tomorrow will see a day in Egypt that will be remembered for generations to come. Personally, I can't see Mubarack lasting much longer, and he too may be seeking refuge in Saudi very soon.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: tyssam5 on January 28, 2011, 12:02:23 AM
What do the democrats in the USA and Israel think of this terrible dictatorship being overthrown by a popular rising? Probably the same as they felt when the shah was overthrown in Iran - not very happy to see a nasty but helpful friend bite the dust.

I would say the Iran revolution would have been slightly more annoying, given that Tunisia has no oil (?), no border with the Soviet Union and didn't take a bunch of people hostage inside the US embassy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 01:31:44 AM
Egypt have now shut the internet down, blocking facebook, twitter, youtube etc, etc.
Mobile phone service has also been severly disrupted, and in most cases, shut down.

This follows the success of social media in organising the protests, and the reaction to the Associated Press releasing the following video of a peaceful protester getting shot and killed.

http://video.ap.org/?f=None&pid=oT7qj_wiVHTbYae3scwok4_irYjJ2R8Z 

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2011, 10:33:14 AM
Last week the FT was plugging Egypt as a new growth story.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/84e56b44-25c5-11e0-8258-00144feab49a.html#axzz1CHDzzYIb


And now, wallahi
- http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d8c3b42e-2a47-11e0-b906-00144feab49a.html#ixzz1CHEB2T2H
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 28, 2011, 10:37:22 AM
http://justworldnews.org/archives/004132.html

There will be major change in the Middle East. Though the US-Israeli imperium may find a way to survive in the region beyond tomorrow (#jan28), there is no way it can survive in its present form beyond the end of 2012.
And you know what? That will be a good thing for the vast majority of Americans and our country as a whole. After the imperium is brought to an end, it will be a whole lot easier for Americans to have good relations with both Israelis and the peoples of the Arab world-- and they, with us-- than it has been for the past 15 years. Ending the imperium is not a recipe for any kind of "clash of civilizations". It is, rather, an essential prerequisite for being able to build a decent relationship based on fairness, mutual respect, and shared commitment to the values that all of us hold dear.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 01:12:37 PM
Unbelievable scenes now all over Egypt. Hundreds of thousands of people all over the country have turned out in protest at Mubarack. Egypt have shut down the internet, and mobile phone service. However, web savy people are still able to get the message out.

Click on the following links for live updates:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/jan/28/egypt-protests-live-updates

Live streaming from Al Jazeera:
http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/


Some news below:

Blog home Protests in Egypt - live updates• Mohamed ElBaradei has been detained
• Teargas and rubber bullets used in crackdown
• Internet access and mobile phone networks shut down
• Read a full summary of the latest developments

 
Share1720  Comments (175) This page will update automatically every minute: On | Off
 
A riot policeman in a van fires rubber bullets as Egyptian riot police clash with anti-government activists in downtown Cairo, Egypt Photograph: Ben Curtis/AP
 
12.59pm:CloseLink to this update: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/2011/jan/28/egypt-protests-live-updates#block-43 In another extraordinary audio report Jack Shenker in Cairo reports on signs that the police are siding with the protesters. He saw a senior police officer discard a teargas canister to signal to protesters that he was on their side. Will the regime fall he asked a state journalist. "It's already falling, it can't stop," Jack was told.

Jack has seen tens of thousands of protesters on the streets, some chanting "we are change".

12.57pm: Twitter are saying the NDP headquarters in Mansoura, 120 miles north-east of Cairo, is being overrun by 40,000 people.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Square Ball on January 28, 2011, 03:20:43 PM
I have been watching this for the past hour or so on the BBC and CNN, a lot happening, the opposition leader now under house arrest, the army have been seen in Ciaro and the protests are getting bigger. Government buildings on fire in Alexandera, and fires also in Suez.

Mobiles and the internet has also been shut down
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on January 28, 2011, 03:56:43 PM
It's gettin scary.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hereiam on January 28, 2011, 04:41:10 PM
Should this not have been Ireland by now.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Ulick on January 28, 2011, 05:17:03 PM
The Revolution will be televised

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ (http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Square Ball on January 28, 2011, 05:28:33 PM
The Revolution will be televised

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ (http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/)

I see they are all heeding the carfew
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 05:39:29 PM
The Revolution will be televised

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ (http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/)

The Al Jazeera reporter Ayman Mohyeldin who is reporting from Cairo is a friend, and he is one brave reporter.
His reports from Cairo all day have been amazing, and has been the best so far in reporting the reality on the ground.

This is going to be one long night, and will be scary for everyone on the ground.

It is too late in the day for Clinton to enter the frame and ask for reform. There was no mention of reforms
over the years when then handed out blank cheques to that bastard Mubarak.

I hope there are no futher loss of life, and it stays as peaceful as possible.

A full curfew for Egypt has now been imposed. Needless to say it will not be heeded
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Ulick on January 28, 2011, 05:59:58 PM
I see they are all heeding the carfew

Tweets coming through say the army are clashing with the police in Suez.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 06:17:15 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/28/world/middleeast/28diplo.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha22

Good link on the wikilinks papers between the US and Egypt.

The military have taken to the streets, and have taken the side of the protesters.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 07:28:56 PM
5 people now confirmed dead today, and almost 1,000 people injured.

Mubarak has yet to make a public statement, instead relying on his puppet masters in Washington
to address the people.

The Israeli embassy staff have been airlifted out, and have no immediate plans to return.

Protestors have now stormed the state TV station, wrecking equipment.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 08:36:16 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jan/28/hosni-mubarak-unite-country-hatred


Hosni Mubarak: How one man united a country – in hatred


The widespread protests that began against the regime of President Hosni Mubarak have spread in the last few days to encompass almost an entire people.

It now includes not only the stone-throwing youths who huddled in the fog of teargas below the underpasses near the centre of Cairo, or charged police on the Nile bridges, but Egyptians from all walks of life.

Old and young, the middle classes and the urban poor. Those who didn't take to the streets waved from their balconies or threw water bottles and onions to the crowd below to be used against teargas. Others handed out paper facemasks for the same purpose.

Down below the protesters carried signs that said "game over" and wrapped themselves in Egyptian flags. Cars and motorbikes sounded their horns.

In the city centre, at a tiny mosque in a side alley, before the protest started the men came for Friday prayers and heard a sermon that set the tone. "No one has the right to control you save for God," he said over the loudspeaker. "You have the right to speak out, only do it peacefully."

In the march that began in Muhand aiming to walk to the city centre Tahrir Square, the same message was delivered.

Among the thousands were doctors in white coats, students and professors, those working for NGOs, housewives and children, hotel staff and shopkeepers.

What is extraordinary is how this mass movement has all of a sudden united Egypt against a single figure – Mubarak – forging an unexpected alliance of members of the Muslim brotherhood with those more moderate, as well as union members, activists and those whose politics are only defined by wanting something else. Many of them have been united by social media, fuelling Egypt's fiercest protests for years.

"I'm here because I support it," said Muhamad Fakhri, a 52-year-old university professor outside the mosque where the march began.

"I don't support any of the opposition leaders. All I want is reform. I'm here because I can see Egyptian people have reached the moment when they must choose. Because people are crushed by the prices of food, because of unemployment, because people should have freedom and democracy. I came to express my opinion against what I believe this government is doing wrong."

The police lined up to block the route of the march. Protesters stepped forward to appeal with the officers to join them.

A middle-aged employee of a large charity, asking not to be identified, said: "The reason I am here is to join the revolution." He marched along the banks of the Nile with a column of protesters who had been hit by gas canisters thrown at them by police occupying a motorway bridge.

"I think the government will fall. I'm really hopeful. All these rumours that Mubarak's son, Gamal, has fled and that Mubarak himself has packed his bag."

The presence of so many women had initially helped moderate the violence. Groups of women chanted "Peaceful! Peaceful!" and seized rocks and stones from the young men.

By the day's end it seemed that all of Egypt had come to join them
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 28, 2011, 10:23:14 PM
Mubarak on live now:

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on January 28, 2011, 11:51:27 PM
how do you see this panning out dixie. will the new leaders of these countries be more radical ie muslim extremeist or more leftest socialist ???
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: All of a Sludden on January 29, 2011, 01:21:55 AM
how do you see this panning out dixie. will the new leaders of these countries be more radical ie muslim extremeist or more leftest socialist ???

They`ll be what the Americans want them to be.  :D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: ross4life on January 29, 2011, 12:23:59 PM
Well i was due to fly out to cairo yesterday though with the on going  protests i decided to cancel my flight & spend the rest of the week in the peace & quiet of Cyprus

I guess i'll have to see Egypt on a later date.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on January 29, 2011, 03:35:27 PM
Well i was due to fly out to cairo yesterday though with the on going  protests i decided to cancel my flight & spend the rest of the week in the peace & quiet of Cyprus

I guess i'll have to see Egypt on a later date.

Good call I'd say.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 30, 2011, 03:00:30 PM
Well, today has seen an increased rise in protests all over Egypt. Over 30,000 people are now in Tahrir Square chanting for the removal of Hosni Mubara. In the past hour, 2 F16 fighter jets have been flying over the city, along with helicopters. The military are holding positions, and havn't turned on the people, yet......

The police are nowhere to be seen, and many prisons have been opened as security gaurds have left their posts. US and Israeli ebassies have been deserted, and diplomats and their families have been airlifted out.
Many countries are requesting their citizens to leave, and flights are been sent to Egypt to take them home.

Egypt have shut down Al Jazeera, however, they are still there reporting undercover. http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/2007829161423657345.html

At this stage, there is only one solution. Mubarak must go. Nothing else is going to satisfy the Egyptians. The US are making a lot of noise, however, no one in Egypt cares about what they have to say as they choke on tear gas, get shot by bullets, and watch F16's try to scare them. All presents to Mubarak from Uncle Sam.

The next 24 hours are going to be very tense, and it is in this time that a solution has got to be found.

It certainly has been a very historic 2 weeks, and has changed the face of the middle east for sure. There is no going back now, as people are rising up, and saying NO to brutal dictators.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 30, 2011, 03:31:06 PM
Hillary Clintons speech on the current situation in Egypt, with sub titles explaing what she actually means.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=rBuMuzhvYeA
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 02:18:32 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/an-arab-revolution-fueled-by-methods-of-the-west-1.340079

An Arab revolution fueled by methods of the West

So what has happened so far? A corrupt president in Tunisia flees, to cheers from around the world. Protests erupt in Egypt, and gloom descends. Protests are held in Iran, and the world cheers. A prime minister is deposed in Lebanon, to fear and dread. An Iraqi president is overthrown in a military offensive, and it's called democracy. Raucous demonstrations take place in Yemen, and they're called interesting but not terribly important.

Why the different reactions? This is supposedly the new Middle East the West always wanted, but something still isn't working out. This isn't the Middle East they dreamed of in the Bush administration, and not what nourished Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's wildest dreams. A new, unexpected player has appeared: the public.

Up to now, the world has been divided into two camps: "complicated" countries where the government represents the public and every decision is subject to public oversight, and "easy" countries where business is conducted at the top and the public is just window dressing. The dividing line between the two has always been starkly clear. Everything north of the Mediterranean belonged to the first group and everything to the south and east to the second.

The north had political parties and trade unions, a left wing and a right wing, important intellectuals, celebrities who shaped public opinion, and of course, there was public opinion itself. In the south the division was simple. It was the distinction between moderates and extremists, meaning pro-Westerners and anti-Westerners.

If you're a Saudi king who buys billions of dollars of American weapons, you're pro-Western and therefore entitled to continue to rule a country without a parliament, one where thieves' hands are amputated and women aren't allowed to drive. If you're an Egyptian president who supports the peace process, you're pro-Western and have permission to continue to impose emergency rule in your country, jail journalists and opposition members, and fix elections.

And what if you're the ruler of Qatar? There's a problem classifying you. On the one hand, Qatar hosts the largest American military base in the Middle East. But it has close relations with Iran and Syria. On the one hand, its ruler promotes democratic values and its foreign minister occasionally meets with top Israeli officials. But it nurtures Al Jazeera.

Of course, we love Al Jazeera when it shows us exclusive pictures of mass demonstrations, discloses secret documents, and is open to interviewing Israeli and Jewish spokespeople. But we hate it because it covers Hamas and Hezbollah's successes. The huge challenge of categorizing Qatar shows that the terms pro-Western and moderate have no connection to the universal values the West seeks to export. They only represent the degree of the fear and the threat posed by the values the anti-Westerners send to the West.

And all of a sudden, into the whirlwind, into the era of certainty and the lexicon in which the region's countries are neatly packaged, the Arab "street" erupts, a sophisticated street. It uses "our" methods: Facebook and Twitter - the tools of democracy we have invented - to present us with a situation of disorder. How do you defend yourself against this? This Arab street has already used these tools to depose Tunisian President Zine El Abedine Ben Ali, and its ideas have gone viral. What if it manages to establish democracy in Egypt? In Yemen? Look what happened to the Shah of Iran, albeit using now-outmoded cassettes.

And when Al Jazeera's cameras come close to the demonstrators, it also becomes clear that these are not religious radicals. Lawyers, journalists, university students, women with their heads uncovered, high school students, the secular and the religious are taking to the streets. They're not shouting "God is great," but "corruption out," "dictator out" and "we want jobs." Such nice slogans make you identify with them. In the words of "The Internationale": "arise ye workers from your slumber." It makes us want to join them until we remember that, as U.S. President Franklin Roosevelt described Nicaraguan dictator Anastasio Somoza, he "may be a son of a bitch, but he's our son of a bitch." It's disrupting the order of things.

We don't have to wait for other regimes to fall to understand that the revolution is happening before our very eyes. Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak will not fall due to demonstrations in Cairo's Tahrir Square, and Yemen's ruler will also continue to rule by force. But it's a revolution of awareness and of the fundamental notions of what the Middle East is. Most importantly, we need a revolution in the way the West views the region.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 11:08:03 AM
the neocons have lost it
 
http://www.amconmag.com/postright/2011/01/29/the-neocons-have-lost-it/

The zionists have lost it too

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-urges-world-to-curb-criticism-of-egypt-s-mubarak-1.340238

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/for-obama-egypt-protests-may-garner-a-new-friend-israel-1.340237

 

Rand Paul hasn't

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/u-s-democrats-and-pro-israel-lobbies-slam-republican-senator-s-call-to-halt-israel-aid-1.339662

 

The administration “has been way behind the curve,” said former Jordanian foreign minister Marwan Muasher, a vice president at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. “So far, they’re just reacting. They’re looking at it from two prisms – the need for stability . . . and the peace process in Israel.

“This is not about Israel,” Muasher said. “I wish for once the United States would just leave Israel out of this and look at it for what it is. People are fed up with corruption, and they want a better government.” Egypt and Jordan, the only two Arab governments to have made peace with Israel, are central players in the faltering U.S.-backed Israeli-Palestinian peace process.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/30/AR2011013004401.html
 

bijou January 30, 2011 at 11:51 pm

http://www.jta.org/news/article/2011/01/30/2742769/hoenlein-elbaradei-a-stooge-for-iran

Malcolm Hoenlein, the executive vice-president of the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations, accused ElBaradei of covering up Iran’s true nuclear weaponization capacities while he directed the International Atomic Energy Agency, the U.N. nuclear watchdog.

“He is a stooge of Iran, and I don’t use the term lightly,” Hoenlein said in an online recorded interview with Yeshiva World News on the Egyptian crisis. “He fronted for them, he distorted the reports.”

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 11:10:33 AM
Amazing video that is a riposte to all of the Islamophobia out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBV0ApIh_4&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Declan on January 31, 2011, 11:27:20 AM
Quote
Amazing video that is a riposte to all of the Islamophobia out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBV0ApIh_4&feature=player_embedded

Powerful stuff
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 11:27:53 AM
Very interesting articles Seafoid, and I had been reading them over the past few days.
The one main agenda that US/Israel and the west are trying to push is the idea of an Islamic state
been formed in Egypt. So far, they can't tie that in as both the Christain and Muslim population are
united together in support of getting rid of Mubarak.

Plus, the Muslim Brotherhood who have been banned by Egypt for years have thrown their weight
behind ElBaradei, along with the Christains, trade unions, and other major opposition parties.

The population want democratic elections, and if they get them, ElBaradei will sweep to power.
There is no going back now for the people, as they have now got Mubarak on the ropes, and
he has no support in Egypt to stay on.

The best the west can do now is to engage in dialogue with ElBaraedi, and get themselves
prepared for their withdrawl from Egypt. The people have had enough of their interference,
and they need to pack up and go home, and leave the running of the country to the democratically
elected leaders when there is a new Government installed. From today, the US have chartered planes
to take the 60,000 or so US citizens in Egypt out to European countries. Their withdrawl has started......

The great lie of "Bringing Democracy To The Middle East" has been exposed, and instead, the world
has seen how the US had no intention of allowing democracy there, and instead fully supported brutal
dictators. This is no doubt the beginning of the end of the US empire in the middle east.
From the military defeats in Afghanistan and Iraq, to the overthrow of their prized dictators, the
time has no come for them to pack up and go home. Plus, with the release of the "Palestine Papers",
the world has seen that US/Israel had never any intention of peace, and that land was all they want.

Maybe if the US had spent money on peace and stability in the middle east instead of killing and
oppressing people by the millions, they would be better thought of. However, it's now too late
for them to save face, and they have been exposed.

Don't let the door hit you on  the way out Uncle Sam............
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 11:43:32 AM
Amazing video that is a riposte to all of the Islamophobia out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hBV0ApIh_4&feature=player_embedded

An incredible video that sums up the mood of a nation. His passion and emotion is replicated throughout
Egypt, and that is why the nation has stood up. What a man, and what a speech.

Click on the following link for a Sky News interview with George Galloway yesterday.
Very good interview, and a surprise from Sky...............

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_A7Qh_jcFV8
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Nally Stand on January 31, 2011, 11:45:14 AM
You'll be watching BBC 2 on Thursday night Dixie?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary)

Should be an interesting one
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 12:01:07 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?   

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 12:54:20 PM
Will be tuned in all right on Thursday night. Looks like a good show coming up from Louis.
Will certainly open people peoples eyes as to how fanatical those illegal settlers are, and how
they are an obstacle to peace in the region.

Below is a good article from Haaratz that sums up the US position in the middle east right now.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/obama-will-go-down-in-history-as-the-president-who-lost-egypt-1.340057

Obama will go down in history as the president who lost Egypt

By Aluf Benn

Jimmy Carter will go down in American history as "the president who lost Iran," which during his term went from being a major strategic ally of the United States to being the revolutionary Islamic Republic. Barack Obama will be remembered as the president who "lost" Turkey, Lebanon and Egypt, and during whose tenure America's alliances in the Middle East crumbled.

The superficial circumstances are similar. In both cases, a United States in financial crisis and after failed wars loses global influence under a leftist president whose good intentions are interpreted abroad as expressions of weakness. The results are reflected in the fall of regimes that were dependent on their relationship with Washington for survival, or in a change in their orientation, as with Ankara.

America's general weakness clearly affects its friends. But unlike Carter, who preached human rights even when it hurt allies, Obama sat on the fence and exercised caution. He neither embraced despised leaders nor evangelized for political freedom, for fear of undermining stability.

Obama began his presidency with trips to Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, and in speeches in Ankara and Cairo tried to forge new ties between the United States and the Muslim world. His message to Muslims was "I am one of you," and he backed it by quoting from the Koran. President Hosni Mubarak did not join him on the stage at Cairo University, and Obama did not mention his host. But he did not imitate his hated predecessor, President George W. Bush, with blunt calls for democracy and freedom.

Obama apparently believed the main problem of the Middle East was the Israeli occupation, and focused his policy on demanding the suspension of construction in the settlements and on the abortive attempt to renew the peace talks. That failure led him to back off from the peace process in favor of concentrating on heading off an Israeli-Iranian war.

Americans debated constantly the question of whether Obama cut his policy to fit the circumstances or aimed at the wrong targets. The absence of human rights issues from U.S. policy vis-a-vis Arab states drew harsh criticism; he was accused of ignoring the zeitgeist and clinging to old, rotten leaders. In the past few months many opinion pieces have appeared in the Western press asserting that the days of Mubarak's regime are numbered and calling on Obama to reach out to the opposition in Egypt. There was a sense that the U.S. foreign policy establishment was shaking off its long-term protege in Cairo, while the administration lagged behind the columnists and commentators.

The administration faced a dilemma. One can guess that Obama himself identified with the demonstrators, not the aging dictator. But a superpower isn't the civil rights movement. If it abandons its allies the moment they flounder, who would trust it tomorrow? That's why Obama rallied to Mubarak's side until Friday, when the force of the protests bested his regime.

The street revolts in Tunisia and Egypt showed that the United States can do very little to save its friends from the wrath of their citizens. Now Obama will come under fire for not getting close to the Egyptian opposition leaders soon enough and not demanding that Mubarak release his opponents from jail. He will be accused of not pushing Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu hard enough to stop the settlements and thus indirectly quell the rising tides of anger in the Muslim world. But that's a case of 20:20 hindsight. There's no guarantee that the Egyptian or Tunisian masses would have been willing to live in a repressive regime even if construction in Ariel was halted or a few opposition figures were released from jail.

Now Obama will try to hunker down until the winds of revolt die out, and then forge ties with the new leaders in the region. It cannot be assumed that Mubarak's successors will be clones of Iran's leaders, bent on pursuing a radical anti-American policy. Perhaps they will emulate Turkey's prime minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, who navigates among the blocs and superpowers without giving up his country's membership in NATO and its defense ties with the United States. Erdogan obtained a good deal for Turkey, which benefits from political stability and economic growth without being in anyone's pocket. It could work for Egypt, too
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 01:15:30 PM
That article is neoliberal bollocks. The occupation and the settlers ARE a major cause of anger in the ME.
Obama didn't LOSE Egypt. Does he own Ireland? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 31, 2011, 01:17:37 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 01:31:39 PM
Tactical deployment of Muslim prayer in nonviolence


http://justworldnews.org/archives/004140.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Bogball XV on January 31, 2011, 02:07:11 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
I'd go so far as to say, normally happens.  We'll see, but I'd be surprised if the people get the democracy that all of them think they're getting.  Although, they should be careful about what they wish for, we have had democracy here for a fair while and it hasn't exactly been a success.  Maybe it's time for us all to accept that democracy doesn't actually work!!
That article is neoliberal bollocks. The occupation and the settlers ARE a major cause of anger in the ME.
Obama didn't LOSE Egypt. Does he own Ireland? 
Thought that myself when reading it, surprised that give her dixie would recommend it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 02:29:05 PM
The wonder of Israeli intelligence. The most feared secret service in the WORLD 

http://www.israel-palestinenews.org/2011/01/gideon-levy-egyptian-masses-wont-play.html

"Three or four days ago, Egypt was still in [Israeli] hands. The army of pundits, including our top expert on Egypt, Benjamin Ben-Eliezer, said that "everything is under control," that Cairo is not Tunis and that Mubarak is strong. Ben-Eliezer said that he had spoken on the phone with a senior Egyptian official, and he assured him that there's nothing to worry about. You can count on Fuad and Hosni, both about to become has-beens. "

Don't you love it when you see Fianna Fáil type characteristics replicated out foreign? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on January 31, 2011, 05:41:40 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
:D Sure maybe when you graduate to that level you'll know how it's spelt

I'd comment if I could get you boys to make up your minds...all of a sudden brutal
dictators have become a bad thing ::) Sure for a long time now ye were all about them
defending them at every turn.
 Everyone bar you're little band of Soldiers here can see right through you John... any argument is a good argument as long as it can be turned in to a kicking match at the US/Israel oh and also lets not forget, to deflect attention away from the news last week of your much admired Hamas and their being in bed with Israel  :-[  Oops...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 07:30:54 PM
Faux News, take a bow for your knowledge of Geography........





http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x310141
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on January 31, 2011, 07:55:52 PM
Faux News, take a bow for your knowledge of Geography........





http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x310141

If only we could persuade them to bailout the West Bank.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on January 31, 2011, 08:32:08 PM
Might be a bit dated...but here's a few of Uncle Sam's "friends".....................

 http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html

Nothing changes :o
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on January 31, 2011, 08:33:31 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
:D Sure maybe when you graduate to that level you'll know how it's spelt

I'd comment if I could get you boys to make up your minds... Comma requiredall of a sudden brutal
dictators have become a bad thing ::) No full stopSure for a long time now ye were all verb missingabout themcomma required
defending them at every turn.
 Everyone bar you're your little band of Soldiers here can see right through you John...comma required any argument is a good argument as long as it can be turned in to a kicking match at the US/Israel comma or full stop requiredoh and also lets not forget, to deflect attention away from the news last week of your much admired Hamas and their being in bed with Israel Would take to long to correct this :-[  Oops...

No doubt I make the odd spelling mistake on here but you make the cardinal sin of being critical of someones spelling while being totally incoherant yourself. I've corrected your last post for you. D minus for spelling and that after an edit of your post too!

Unfortunately and more importantly your points are all bullshit. Who was defending dictators on here - maybe you could give an example? Hamas are in bed with Israel - please explain? Would that not make Israel terrorists in your eyes for being in bed with other terrorists? Are you in favour of Egyptians forming a democracy, you forgot to say in your last post? Bar none, you are the biggest fool on this forum.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on January 31, 2011, 09:04:44 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
:D Sure maybe when you graduate to that level you'll know how it's spelt

I'd comment if I could get you boys to make up your minds...all of a sudden brutal
dictators have become a bad thing ::) Sure for a long time now ye were all about them
defending them at every turn.
 Everyone bar you're little band of Soldiers here can see right through you John... any argument is a good argument as long as it can be turned in to a kicking match at the US/Israel oh and also lets not forget, to deflect attention away from the news last week of your much admired Hamas and their being in bed with Israel  :-[  Oops...

There you are. Israel is down to one ally in the Middle East. That is pure carelessness.
But never mind. It is all in the plan I'm sure.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 09:07:27 PM
Might be a bit dated...but here's a few of Uncle Sam's "friends".....................

 http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html

Nothing changes :o

What a charming list of friends Uncle Sam has had, and continues to have. (but not for long).........
And people living in the US wonder why people who have been oppressed by these dictators
hates the US?

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=11014.150

Worthwhile having a read of this page, regarding my 1st experience in Egypt 2 years ago,
and how much of a police state it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 09:08:54 PM
The prof from Suez Canal uni who was on prime Time last week was superb. Unfortunately they cut him off because of time but he had his fingers on the pulse of why this intifada is happening.

9 million young women can't get married because 9 million young men can't afford to support a family because they have not enough in earnings to put food on the table and a roof overhead.

This is a disaster for Israel. Where is Tyrones own with his know nothing neocon analysis when the whole philosophy is being walked into the ground by the brave people of Egypt?

Probably checking his kindergarden globe to see where Egypt is.

My fear for Egypt is that some extremists try to hi jack the rising which can often happen. However, so far it seems to be a popular rising across the whole communities so hopefully it will stay that way and this dictator will scurry of to exile in the US asap.
:D Sure maybe when you graduate to that level you'll know how it's spelt

I'd comment if I could get you boys to make up your minds... Comma requiredall of a sudden brutal
dictators have become a bad thing ::) No full stopSure for a long time now ye were all verb missingabout themcomma required
defending them at every turn.
 Everyone bar you're your little band of Soldiers here can see right through you John...comma required any argument is a good argument as long as it can be turned in to a kicking match at the US/Israel comma or full stop requiredoh and also lets not forget, to deflect attention away from the news last week of your much admired Hamas and their being in bed with Israel Would take to long to correct this :-[  Oops...

No doubt I make the odd spelling mistake on here but you make the cardinal sin of being critical of someones spelling while being totally incoherant yourself. I've corrected your last post for you. D minus for spelling and that after an edit of your post too!

Unfortunately and more importantly your points are all bullshit. Who was defending dictators on here - maybe you could give an example? Hamas are in bed with Israel - please explain? Would that not make Israel terrorists in your eyes for being in bed with other terrorists? Are you in favour of Egyptians forming a democracy, you forgot to say in your last post? Bar none, you are the biggest fool on this forum.

As my granny used to say, "never argue with a fool as they will beat you with experience"
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 31, 2011, 09:38:52 PM
Mike Huckabee doing his bit for peace in Palestine, and the middle east today.........

Likely US Republican presidential candidate attends cornerstone-laying ceremony in occupied east Jerusalem, tells MKs 'I don’t see why bedrooms for their children built by Jews on hilltop in Samaria pose threat to world peace'; calls lack of construction in settlements 'irrational'

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4021904,00.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 01, 2011, 01:24:36 AM
Today will see the biggest day so far in the revolution that is sweeping Egypt. Over 1 million people rom all faiths, colours, creeds and walks of life are destined to gather in Cairo and march towards the presidential palace calling for the end of Mubaraks reign.

The internet has been cut off, mobile phone companies have shut down the networks, Al Jazeera have been
banned, and landlines look set to be cut off. However, the people are resourseful, and they will find a way of getting information out.

Al Jazeera will be broadcasting live, undercover at:  http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/ and they have made all their footage available for free for any network to use. Lets hope that the mainstream media will pick up on their footage, but I doubt it....... Due to the fact that no network in the US will broadcast Al Jazeera, their live streaming via the internet has seen a 3000% increase in th epast 24 hours in the US.

Today will be breaking point for the people of Egypt, and all through the night, thousands of people have been gathering in order for their voice to be heard, and count.

The army have issued a statement that they will not open fire on the people, and have so far, come out on their side. Time will tell if this is true.

In Gaza, Hamas have closed down the Rafah crossing after the Egyptians abandoned their posts, and are watching things closely. They fear that Israel will invade and take over the border post, and impose harsh restrictions, along with bloodshed.

At this stage, the people have spoken, and nothing is going to stop them until Mubarak is gone, and free and democratic elections are held. The people deserve to elect the people they wish to lead them, not who the west want.

Anyhow, lets hope everything passes off peacefully, without further loss of life. Enough people have died at the hands of Mubarak in the past week.

Click on the following link to read Robert Fisk's latest article:  Mohamed ElBaradei: The man who would be President

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/mohamed-elbaradei-the-man-who-would-be-president-2200155.html

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 02, 2011, 08:36:37 AM
US ambassador to Egypt, Margaret Scobey
Jaysus
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 12:46:07 PM
Pro Mubarak supporters have now desended on Tahrir Square, and violent clashes have erupted.
The police and army have dissapeared, and it is getting ugly.

Click on the following link for live reporting from Al Jazeera

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 02:26:23 PM
The scenes in the past few hours have been horrific. Pro Mubarak supporters, who are plain clothes policemen, have been paid to attack the peaceful protesters. They have surrounded everyone in Tahrir Square, and have attacked them with rocks, knives, clubs, swords, and now live gunfire. This is extremely serious, as the people are hemmed in on all sides, and there isn't a soldier or policeman in sight. They have nowhere to escape this visious assult.

Mubarak has just announced that he has no intention of listening to international calls to stand down, and the puppet now seems to have stuck his 2 fingers up to his paymasters.

The blood of the innocent Egyptians is not only on his hands, but on the hands of the US. The world is watching, and taking note. The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: clareman on February 02, 2011, 04:24:44 PM
Is there a lot more support for Mubarak than we were led to believe over the last few days? The news reports seem to indicate thousands of supporters on both sides....
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 04:40:53 PM
Is there a lot more support for Mubarak than we were led to believe over the last few days? The news reports seem to indicate thousands of supporters on both sides....

Over the past few days thousands of criminals have been let out of jail, given weapons, and sent out on the streets to loot, cause trouble, and today, attack those in the square.

Today, thousands of policemen, secret police, and thugs were paid between 5 and 10 pounds to go to the square and attack the people who have been there for days peacefully protesting.

Over 50 thugs captured today have been found to be carrying police ID cards, and have been handed over to the army.

No doubt there are many who still support Mubarak, but it is surprising that for 1 week now, they have been completly silent, until this afternoon.

This is Mubaraks last roll of the dice, considering his paymaster Obomber told him last night to stand down.

Remember Dictators don't dictate, they take orders. It now looks like Mubarak has refused an order for the 1st time in 30 years. Will be interesting to see what the US do now. Considering that practically every US politician had plenty to say 2 years ago during elections in Iran, their silence over the past week has been noted, along with all the US cheerleaders who frequent the GAA board.....
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 02, 2011, 05:09:54 PM
The people won't forget Israel's support for Mubarak  this week.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 02, 2011, 05:23:20 PM
Netanyahu said that Israel expects any new government in Egypt to respect the peace treaty with Israel, and warned that Iran wants Egypt to turn into Gaza.

What a tosspot. Israel turned Gaza into Gaza. a refuse dump for unwanted non Jews who are forced to live on international food aid. I hope it never happens to Israel's Jews. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: puskas on February 02, 2011, 05:28:08 PM
Seafoid, I think the people's anger will be directed at the US more than Israel for Obama's reluctance to publically condemn Mubarek and support an uprising for democracy. Anti-Israel sentiment has been very conspicuous by its absence during the protests 

By the way, Tony Blair's contribution on CNN, "Mubarak is immensely courageous and a force for good" was truly nauseating.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 05:55:50 PM
I watched Mohamed ElBaradei on Anderson Cooper on CNN last night. http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv) I thought he spoke very well, as did a few other Egyptian big wigs based in the US.

I have to say John you are beginning to sound more and more like the fundamentalists running around issuing reckless statements such as "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and "The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected". Revenge, John? More acts like 9/11? Is that what you are calling for? Are you into that sort of thing, or are you not an ambassador for the oppressed, and an ambassador for peace? Is revenge what is in your heart when you're filling vans up at Curelys in dungannon to help the needy of Palestine? If it is, the perception of you being a great man of the oppressed people who gets off his ass and actually goes and helps people will quickly become useless. You've had a lot of well earned and deserved plaudits on here, and in the Irish media due to your courage and desire to help those who are in trouble. War cries like those above however should quickly serve to damage that veneer - especially if the next "revenge" attack takes the lives of a few Irish holiday makers, or more innocents in the wrong place. Which, let us not forget was a result of 9/11. I dare say there wasnt a nation, nor a people on earth not touched by murder that day.

Nothing like giving the likes of Glen Beck and his supporters on here (sweet Jesus that GB is a bonafide mentalist, war monger, somewhat paranoid (ya think), asshole) more ammunition (if you'll excuse the unfortunate pun) to ramble on about the muslim brotherhood and their global desire to change the entire system of civillization.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 06:18:12 PM
I watched Mohamed ElBaradei on Anderson Cooper on CNN last night. http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv) I thought he spoke very well, as did a few other Egyptian big wigs based in the US.

I have to say John you are beginning to sound more and more like the fundamentalists running around issuing reckless statements such as "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and "The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected". Revenge, John? More acts like 9/11? Is that what you are calling for? Are you into that sort of thing, or are you not an ambassador for the oppressed, and an ambassador for peace? Is revenge what is in your heart when you're filling vans up at Curelys in dungannon to help the needy of Palestine? If it is, the perception of you being a great man of the oppressed people who gets off his ass and actually goes and helps people will quickly become useless. You've had a lot of well earned and deserved plaudits on here, and in the Irish media due to your courage and desire to help those who are in trouble. War cries like those above however should quickly serve to damage that veneer - especially if the next "revenge" attack takes the lives of a few Irish holiday makers, or more innocents in the wrong place. Which, let us not forget was a result of 9/11. I dare say there wasnt a nation, nor a people on earth not touched by murder that day.

Nothing like giving the likes of Glen Beck and his supporters on here (sweet Jesus that GB is a bonafide mentalist, war monger, somewhat paranoid (ya think), asshole) more ammunition (if you'll excuse the unfortunate pun) to ramble on about the muslim brotherhood and their global desire to change the entire system of civillization.

Nothing to say Puckoon on the violence currently going on in Cairo as thugs who have been armed by Mubarak via the US go about shooting and killing people? Today, over 1,000 people have been injured, and unconfirmed reports of 5 dead. Over 400 people dead in the past week from the barrels of US supplied weapons and you have nothing to say about it? Instead, you take a swipe at me in a lengthy paragraph of shite.

Maybe if you were to travel to the middle east, see the damage that the US have brought down on people you too would be as angry as me. I am fucked off at what US foreign policy has and continues to do. In the past 50 years they have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, and when people speak out against it, we are labelled "extremists". I know who the extremists are, the world knows who the extremists are, and unfortunatly the only people who dont realise it are the dumb people who are fed a diet of shite every day through Fox and CNN.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 06:38:03 PM
Robert Fisk: Secular and devout. Rich and poor. They marched together with one goal

It was a victory parade – without the victory. They came in their hundreds of thousands, joyful, singing, praying, a great packed mass of Egypt, suburb by suburb, village by village, waiting patiently to pass through the "people's security" checkpoints, draped in the Egyptian flag of red, white and black, its governess eagle a bright gold in the sunlight. Were there a million? Perhaps. Across the country there certainly were. It was, we all agreed, the largest political demonstration in the history of Egypt, the latest heave to rid this country of its least-loved dictator. Its only flaw was that by dusk – and who knew what the night would bring – Hosni Mubarak was still calling himself "President" of Egypt.

Mubarak ended the day as expected, appearing on television to announce that he will hang on until the next election – a promise that will not be accepted by the people he claims to love. The people of Egypt were originally told this was to be "the march of the million" to the Kuba Palace, Mubarak's official state pile, or to the man's own residence in Heliopolis. But so vast was the crowd that the organisers, around 24 opposition groups, decided the danger of attacks from the state security police were too great. They claimed later they had discovered a truck load of armed men close to Tahrir Square. All I could find were 30 Mubarak supporters shouting their love of Egypt outside the state radio headquarters under the guard of more than 40 soldiers.

The cries of loathing for Mubarak are becoming familiar, the posters ever more intriguing. "Neither Mubarak, nor Suleiman, and we don't need you Obama – but we don't dislike USA," one of them announced generously. "Out – all of you, including your slaves," announced another. I did actually find a decaying courtyard covered in rectangular sheets of white cloth where political scribes could spray-paint their own slogans for 40 pence a time. The tea-houses behind Talat Harb's statue were crammed with drinkers, discussing Egypt's new politics with the passion of one of Delacroix's orientalist paintings. You could soak this stuff up all day, revolution in the making. Or was this an uprising? Or an "explosion", as one Egyptian journalist described the demonstration to me?

There were several elements about this unprecedented political event that stood out. First was the secularism of the whole affair. Women in chadors and niqabs and scarves walked happily beside girls with long hair flowing over their shoulders, students next to imams and men with beards that would have made Bin Laden jealous. The poor in torn sandals and the rich in business suits, squeezed into this shouting mass, an amalgam of the real Egypt hitherto divided by class and regime-encouraged envy. They had done the impossible – or so they thought – and, in a way, they had already won their social revolution.

And then there was the absence of the "Islamism" that haunts the darkest corners of the West, encouraged – as usual – by America and Israel. As my mobile phone vibrated again and again, it was the same old story. Every radio anchor, every announcer, every newsroom wanted to know if the Muslim Brotherhood was behind this epic demonstration. Would the Brotherhood take over Egypt? I told the truth. It was rubbish. Why, they might get only 20 per cent at an election, 145,000 members out of a population of 80 million.

A crowd of English-speaking Egyptians crowded round me during one of the imperishable interviews and collapsed in laughter so loud that I had to bring the broadcast to an end. It made no difference, of course, when I explained on air that Israel's kindly and human Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman – who once said that "Mubarak can go to hell" – might at last get his way, politically at least. The people were overwhelmed, giddy at the speed of events.

So was I. There I was, back on the intersection behind the Egyptian Museum where only five days ago – it feels like five months – I choked on tear gas as Mubarak's police thugs, the baltigi, the drug addict ex-prisoner cops, were slipped through the lines of state security policemen to beat, bludgeon and smash the heads and faces of the unarmed demonstrators, who eventually threw them all out of Tahrir Square and made it the Egyptian uprising. Back then, we heard no Western support for these brave men and women. Nor did we hear it yesterday.

Amazingly, there was little evidence of hostility towards America although, given the verbal antics of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton these past eight days, there might have well been. One almost felt sorry for Obama. Had he rallied to the kind of democracy he preached here in Cairo six months after his investiture, had he called for the departure of this third-rate dictator a few days ago, the crowds would have been carrying US as well as Egyptian flags, and Washington would have done the impossible: it would have transformed the now familiar hatred of America (Afghanistan, Iraq, the "war on terror", etc) into the more benign relationship which the US enjoyed in the balmy 1920s and 1930s and, indeed, despite its support for the creation of Israel, into the warmth that existed between Arab and American into the 1960s.

But no. All this was squandered in just seven days of weakness and cowardice in Washington – a gutlessness so at odds with the courage of the millions of Egyptians who tried to do what we in the West always demanded of them: to turn their dust-bowl dictatorships into democracies. They supported democracy. We supported "stability", "moderation", "restraint", "firm" leadership (Saddam Hussein-lite) soft "reform" and obedient Muslims.

This failure of moral leadership in the West – under the false fear of "Islamisation" – may prove to be one of the greatest tragedies of the modern Middle East. Egypt is not anti-Western. It is not even particularly anti-Israeli, though this could change. But one of the blights of history will now involve a US president who held out his hand to the Islamic world and then clenched his fist when it fought a dictatorship and demanded democracy.

This tragedy may continue in the coming days as the US and Europe give their support to Mubarak's chosen successor, the chief spy and Israeli negotiator, Vice-President Omar Suleiman. He has called, as we all knew he would, for talks with "all factions" – he even contrived to sound a bit like Obama. But everyone in Egypt knows that his administration will be another military junta which Egyptians will again be invited to trust to ensure the free and fair elections which Mubarak never gave them. Is it possible – is it conceivable – that Israel's favourite Egyptian is going to give these millions the freedom and democracy they demand?

Or that the army which so loyally guarded them today will give such uncritical support to that democracy when it receives $1.3bn a year from Washington? This military machine, which has not fought a war for almost 38 years, is under-trained and over-armed, with largely obsolete equipment – though its new M1A1 tanks were on display yesterday – and deeply embedded in the corporation of big business, hotels and housing complexes, all rewards to favourite generals by the Mubarak regime.

And what were the Americans doing? Rumour: US diplomats were on their way to Egypt to negotiate between a future President Suleiman and opposition groups. Rumour: extra Marines were being drafted into Egypt to defend the US embassy from attack. Fact: Obama finally told Mubarak to go. Fact: a further evacuation of US families from the Marriott Hotel in Cairo, escorted by Egyptian troops and cops, heading for the airport, fleeing from a people who could so easily be their friends.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 06:40:31 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

 

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 07:07:18 PM
Puckoon, nowhere on any of my posts did I call for revenge, or say that revenge will be taken out on the US. I simply made the observation that there will probably be revenge for the attacks currently going on, and the silence from the US and the west. The revenge will mostly happen within Egypt, as there is a good chance of civil unrest to go for weeks, if not months. You added the following qoute "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and conviently added in brackets (the USA). Why did you have to do that whenever I never mentioned the USA, or even used this quote here on the board?

Today we had the warmonger Tony Blair showing his support for Mubarak, and last week we had Hilary Clinton calll Mubarak a friend. What sort of message is this to send out to the families of the dead and the injured over the past week? Did these 2 people not stand for democracy?

In your condemnation of the attacks today, you say that "no side is innocent". Are you blaming the people who for days held peaceful protests for the brutal attacks inflicted on them today by Mubaraks thugs?



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 07:33:46 PM
John - your posts and influence extend far beyond this discussion board - with the varying degrees of social media that are everywhere today. You did make a post today (not on this board), but in relation to the situation in the middle east where you stated that "they will pay for this attack on humanity" in a sentence directly after referencing and apportioning blame to the USA. Seems perfectly plausible to paraphrase that correctly for the purposes of the point I wanted to make - which is a little perspective. Now, if I'm reading that wrong - and also taking your revenge post on this thread wrong and out of context - let me know. I don't think you can call anyone else a warmonger when you yourself are saying these kinds of things - even though I understand your passion for the cause.

When I said  - no side is innocent, I am of course not talking about laying blame at the feet of peaceful protestors who have been downtrodden, betrayed and today attacked. I am talking about the grander picture of middle eastern politics - and USA involvment. You can't have a situation like the status quo that exists today without both sides contributing. If it was all one sided we'd have had a winner already. I don't know why Blair said what he did today, its a strange proclimation to make in all honesty, and I see him having to revisit that one. As for Hilary - we already know there is US involvment in all sides of the middle east - and playing the political game is hardly a surprise. What is a good sign is that the president appears to have laid down a marker for Mubarak to get out ASAP (granted without actually ordering him - which again is the politcal game). I'm not convinced you even want to hear any good news coming out of the US adminstration - such seems to be your hatred for it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 02, 2011, 07:45:49 PM
A question for you give her dixie.

Do you feel that the people of Egypt (or Jordan or Tunisia) bear ANY responsibility for the political structures of their country and how they have been ruled for the past 30 years or so ?  or is it ALL an american or Israeli conspiracy ?

 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 08:15:14 PM
Good question Mike.

The people don't really bear much responsibility for the political structures because they have to live under a dictatorship. They don't get to vote, they are not allowed to protest, and anyone who protests or speaks out, gets thrown in jail and on most occassions, tortured.

Whenever free and democratic elections were held in Palestine over 4 years ago and Hamas won, the US, Egypt and Israel shut the doors, starved them, and then killed them by the thousand with weapons supplied by the US, and paid for by US taxpayers.

Whenever any resolution is brought against Israel for their breach of human rights of the Palestinians, the US are the only country to oppose them. What message does that send out to the Palestinians, and to the wider region?

These dictators are fully funded and supported by the US. They are funded and supported to protect US interests in the middle east, which amount to oil and Israel. Israel have been murdering Palestinians by the thousands, stealing their land day by day, and the US fully supports their actions 100%. Practically every politician in the US falls over themselves in their support for them. More US politicians vist Israel than every other country put together.

Can you recall any sanctions been placed on Jordan, Egypt, Tunisia, Israel, Saudi, etc due to their oppression and severe disregard for human rights? For nearly 20 years, serious sanctions were placed on Iraq which resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people, mostly childen.

Why were sanctions not imposed  on the others for their violations of human rights?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 02, 2011, 08:33:02 PM
I watched Mohamed ElBaradei on Anderson Cooper on CNN last night. http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv (http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/?hpt=tv) I thought he spoke very well, as did a few other Egyptian big wigs based in the US.

I have to say John you are beginning to sound more and more like the fundamentalists running around issuing reckless statements such as "They (the USA) will pay for this attack on humanity", and "The tsunami of revenge will be brutal, and unfortunatly expected". Revenge, John? More acts like 9/11? Is that what you are calling for? Are you into that sort of thing, or are you not an ambassador for the oppressed, and an ambassador for peace? Is revenge what is in your heart when you're filling vans up at Curelys in dungannon to help the needy of Palestine? If it is, the perception of you being a great man of the oppressed people who gets off his ass and actually goes and helps people will quickly become useless. You've had a lot of well earned and deserved plaudits on here, and in the Irish media due to your courage and desire to help those who are in trouble. War cries like those above however should quickly serve to damage that veneer - especially if the next "revenge" attack takes the lives of a few Irish holiday makers, or more innocents in the wrong place. Which, let us not forget was a result of 9/11. I dare say there wasnt a nation, nor a people on earth not touched by murder that day.

Nothing like giving the likes of Glen Beck and his supporters on here (sweet Jesus that GB is a bonafide mentalist, war monger, somewhat paranoid (ya think), asshole) more ammunition (if you'll excuse the unfortunate pun) to ramble on about the muslim brotherhood and their global desire to change the entire system of civillization.

Nothing to say Puckoon on the violence currently going on in Cairo as thugs who have been armed by Mubarak via the US go about shooting and killing people? Today, over 1,000 people have been injured, and unconfirmed reports of 5 dead. Over 400 people dead in the past week from the barrels of US supplied weapons and you have nothing to say about it? Instead, you take a swipe at me in a lengthy paragraph of shite.

Maybe if you were to travel to the middle east, see the damage that the US have brought down on people you too would be as angry as me. I am fucked off at what US foreign policy has and continues to do. In the past 50 years they have been responsible for the deaths of millions of people, and when people speak out against it, we are labelled "extremists". I know who the extremists are, the world knows who the extremists are, and unfortunatly the only people who dont realise it are the dumb people who are fed a diet of shite every day through Fox and CNN.
And then you proceed to post an article from Fisk... Irony anyone :D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 02, 2011, 08:37:26 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

You disagree fully with me yet proceed to say exactly what I've been saying for over a year now about the anti everything west, rambling hater ::)

Can you not defend yourself without using me to lean on?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 02, 2011, 08:43:20 PM
TO - You're the only reference point on this board for that end of the scale - which is an end I disagree with. Not a matter of a) defending myself, or b) leaning on you.

I disagree fully with your Glen Beck directline "the muslim brotherhood want to take over the world" diatribes. I watched that ballocks for the first time last night - I don't know if you caught the broadcast and he is an embarrassment of a man.

Its some ping pong match alright to read you and dixie on here both professing that yiz each are right and its the other one who is a fundamentalist.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 02, 2011, 08:59:38 PM
Al Jazeera still providing excellent coverage from Tahrir Square as the attacks are ongoing.

http://english.aljazeera.net/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: puskas on February 02, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
on checking, Blair's "courageous Mubarak, force for good" comment on CNN was made in the context of his role in the I/P situation, and also before today's events it should be added. doesn't redeem the comments very much but still it's not as blatant as is being reported in some sources. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 02, 2011, 09:51:43 PM
on checking, Blair's "courageous Mubarak, force for good" comment on CNN was made in the context of his role in the I/P situation, and also before today's events it should be added. doesn't redeem the comments very much but still it's not as blatant as is being reported in some sources.
Careful Puskas...such facts only stand to tarnish the polished
 sensationalism on display here :-X
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 02, 2011, 10:17:46 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

Who is kissing his feet - thats the type of metaphor i expect from that muppet Tyrone own. It implies we are in awe of Dixie and believe everything he says because he says it. Personally I have had a great interest in the middle east for a long time and the way the west has manipulated the region for decades and even centuries and now we have one big dangerous mess. The west and especially the yanks are quite simply to blame for this. Call me biased or whatever you want but when I look at the facts that is what they say. The Shah proped up in Iran, Mubarek in Egpt, Sadam in Iraq, Israel armed to the teeth and allowed slaughter whoever they like in Palestine and lebanon and further afield and then the same people decry the lack of democracy. What is the balance you speak of. What facts are there that show that the US has supported democracy and free elections in these countries, i'd love to see the counterbalance I really would. The US (and indeed the west in general) have a simple policy in the middle east, my enemies enemy is my friend, a policy that has failed miserably.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 02, 2011, 10:50:54 PM
Its a disgrace John. An absolute disgrace. No side is innocent here - lets not lose sight of that. The USA didnt open the prison doors to let people out. The president of the USA called last night for Mubarak to begin an orderly transition into peace and fair democratic elections and that it must begin NOW. Foreign policy just doesnt change in an instant.

John, you have enough people on here kissing your feet - and if you want to call a little perspective a paragraph of shite in your defence then so be it. There is no denying your passionate hatred for all things USA but comparing FOX and CNN just demonstrates that your hatred clouds your judgement. CNN have correspondents out there interviewing the people you put up as heros -  Mohamed Elbaradei included. No censorship, no nonsense. CNN took on that "comedian" Joan Rivers to air her thoughts on Sarah Palin - when FOX news cancelled her appearance after leakage of what she was going to say.

Speak out against it for all your are worth - injustices deserve to be highlighted and spoken against - and no - I dont have the time or the inclination to travel to the middle east - I can't even find the time or money to fly home to Ireland, so I have my own battles to fight on a daily basis. When you start calling for revenge and for people to "pay" for political and foreign policy transgressions - you're only codding yourself at the end of the day.

I disgree fully with Tyrones Own on his political beliefs and his thoughts on the middle east, so this isnt a case of USA apologism - and there is a middle ground to work from and try and stabilise peace in all regions - and that is firmly where I would always find myself situated. Your words are becomming less like the man who bounced on here full of support and help and more like a warmonger for the islamic people.  You're moving so far down the scale into a raging seething hate you're going to end up balancing it out with the eejits on the other side over here. Fundamentalists on both sides of the divide. Call it a paragraph of shite if you want - but they are your words - not mine. If you arent calling for revenge am I reading things?

You disagree fully with me yet proceed to say exactly what I've been saying for over a year now about the anti everything west, rambling hater ::)

Can you not defend yourself without using me to lean on?

Can you explain how GHD is "anti everything west" and provide examples please?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Pangurban on February 03, 2011, 12:43:07 AM
Reading Tyrones Own comments on this and other subjects, i have become convinced that it is far from Tyrone or Ireland he was reared
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 03, 2011, 05:05:39 AM
If Tyrone is indeed in Ireland, it's hard to tell with some of ye then you're wrong and wrong  :)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 03, 2011, 05:26:44 AM
Quote
TO - You're the only reference point on this board for that end of the scale
What scale would that be since you never met me and know absolutely nothing about me :-\
Quote
Not a matter of a) defending myself, or b) leaning on you.
You were of course defending yourself to the Piper when you brought my name into it!
Quote
I disagree fully with your Glen Beck directline
Please explain what you mean by your...or how this involves me?
Quote
Its some ping pong match alright to read you and dixie on here both professing that yiz each are right and its the other one who is a fundamentalist.
I never once professed to be right about anything other than being the very first one on here to catch on to what it was he was really about, when the rest of you were licking his hole, glorifying him for the great humanitarian he was  ::)
You do realize that you, now that you had the audacity to highlight some of his biased hate are no better than me in his eyes... right ?
or will it take his little band of brainwashed cheerleaders to turn on you with assumptions and insults up the ying yang for you to figure that one out  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Declan on February 03, 2011, 09:21:00 AM
Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt’s Internet and cell phone “kill switch” was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: “It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities.”

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow “deep packet inspection,”. Narus technology “allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down.”

All of the above is in the public record.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 03, 2011, 10:00:35 AM
Good article Declan, and it goes a long way in explaining why the US wants to keep it's dictators in place throughout the middle east. What I can't figure out is how a nation that has 44% of it's population living on food stamps, 1 in 46 homes in foreclosure, and half of the population working for minimum wage, millions without healtcare, sit back and allow thier Government to spend hundreds of billions each each on illegal wars and hand outs to dictators? Should they not take a leaf out of the Tunisian and Egyptians book and protest? I suppose Joe Biden said it best the other day when he said "Egypt can't control it's people the way we can".....

Republican Rand Paul said the following recently on CNN, and was immediatly denounced by many politicians. I don't often find myself agreeing with what a Republican says, but I agree with him on this statement:

"You have to ask yourself, are we funding an arms race on both sides?...........I don't think funding both sides of the arm race, particularly when we have to borrow the money from China to send it to someone else. We just can't do it anymore. The debt is all- consuming and it threatens our well-being as a country,”

I suppose it boils down to the fact that as long as the Government keep people in debt and on the breadline, they will not speak up or protest. The same is happening in Ireland at present. How many people took to the streets whenever the Government sold out to the IMF? No one is speaking up, or taking to the streets in protest. Maybe in 20 years time, when they are screwed way beyond where they are now, they will read about the Tunisian and Egyptian struggle, and then say "Enough Is Enough". However, it will be too late by then to salvage what is left of the country, or their dignity.

The following quote was by Martin Niemoller, a famous U Boat captain who was a fierce critic of the Nazi regime, and who spent time in the concentration camps. It is as relevant today as it was 60 odd years ago.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
    because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
    and there was no one left to speak out for me

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Declan on February 03, 2011, 11:52:37 AM
The "peace" envoy's thoughts on the matter
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/02/tony-blair-mubarak-courageous-force-for-good-egypt)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 03, 2011, 01:03:32 PM
Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt’s Internet and cell phone “kill switch” was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: “It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities.”

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow “deep packet inspection,”. Narus technology “allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down.”

All of the above is in the public record.

Egypt is key. If Mubarak falls then Saudi will be next. Egypt and Saudi have been buying US weaponry for the last 30 years. Together they would beat Israel. Especially if Iran joined in.  Yank nightmare.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Capt Pat on February 03, 2011, 02:39:40 PM
So who were the pro Mubarak supporters? The secret police and their ilk in plain clothes seeing the writing on the wall for their lifestyles deciding they have as much to lose as Mubarak. They will be on the outside looking in if Mubarak leaves.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on February 03, 2011, 03:49:46 PM
Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt’s Internet and cell phone “kill switch” was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: “It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities.”

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow “deep packet inspection,”. Narus technology “allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down.”

All of the above is in the public record.

Do you not think its still in the Military's interest to have a pro-US government?

I think they'll be the real obstacle to democracy as even if Mubarack does go by fair means or foul they'll still be behind the scenes protecting their interests.

The figurehead may change but the government will still be in power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2011, 04:06:22 PM
Looking at this as objectively as possible it seems to me to be a bit of a Hobson's choice.

Mubarak, and his US backed military (has there ever been an example of one of their puppets actually working out?) maintaining the status quo or the rise of something called the Muslim Brotherhood right across north Africa and into the middle East?

Oppressive regime A or repressive regime B?

Dogma Sam or Dogma Imam?

Of course this is further complicated by the presence of Israel for whom dogma isn't quite a strong enough word.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 03, 2011, 04:19:24 PM
In other news in the middle east, Bouteflika, the Algerian dictator has ended a 19 year old state of emergency, King Abdullah of Jordan yesterday dismissed his unpopular government and made a lot of noise about reform, growing unrest in Yemen caused the country’s veteran president Ali ­Abdullah Saleh to announce he would not be seeking another term, and in Israel, they are stockpiling toilet paper.......

The winds of change are blowing madly across the middle east, and one things for sure, it will never be the same again.

In Egypt, reporters are been hunted down and arrested. Hotels are been raided by Murbaraks forces and going through every room looking for them. It has become extremly dangerous for them at this stage, and they face serious consequenses if caught.

Gun fire continues to ring out all over the city, and so far 7 people have been killed, and over 1,500 injured. Over 50 thugs arrested so far have been found to be carrying police ID, and many more have admitted to been let out of prison in order to attack people in the square. Several high ranking Israeli spies have been captured in Cairo, and in other cities. No prizes for guessing what they were up to.......

Tomorrow the Egyptians have called for Murbarak to be gone, and masses of people will descend once again on the streets.
There is no going back for the people, and Mubarak has to go, and free and democratic elections need to be held as soon as possible. The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 03, 2011, 04:22:25 PM
In other news in the middle east, Bouteflika, the Algerian dictator has ended a 19 year old state of emergency, King Abdullah of Jordan yesterday dismissed his unpopular government and made a lot of noise about reform, growing unrest in Yemen caused the country’s veteran president Ali ­Abdullah Saleh to announce he would not be seeking another term, and in Israel, they are stockpiling toilet paper.......

The winds of change are blowing madly across the middle east, and one things for sure, it will never be the same again.

In Egypt, reporters are been hunted down and arrested. Hotels are been raided by Murbaraks forces and going through every room looking for them. It has become extremly dangerous for them at this stage, and they face serious consequenses if caught.

Gun fire continues to ring out all over the city, and so far 7 people have been killed, and over 1,500 injured. Over 50 thugs arrested so far have been found to be carrying police ID, and many more have admitted to been let out of prison in order to attack people in the square. Several high ranking Israeli spies have been captured in Cairo, and in other cities. No prizes for guessing what they were up to.......

Tomorrow the Egyptians have called for Murbarak to be gone, and masses of people will descend once again on the streets.
There is no going back for the people, and Mubarak has to go, and free and democratic elections need to be held as soon as possible. The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......

The winds of change arent the only thing blowing madly.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on February 03, 2011, 04:32:03 PM
The west is obsessed about the Muslim Brotherhood, however, they have backed Elbareidi, and with only 200,000 members in a country of 85 million, they don't weild much power. The west seem to forget that Christain Governments are responsible for millions of deaths in other countries, and no matter how bad the Muslim Brotherhood could be, they wouldn't lace Bush, Blairs, or Obombers shoes.......

Dixie I applauded your trip to Gaza and you deserved it.

However for balance you can't lump all the actions of "Christian Governments" together on one hand and ask us to separate the other side into its constituent parts and individual issues.


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 03, 2011, 05:53:40 PM
Thanks Muppet.

On your second point, when I speak about the obsession in the west about the Muslim Brotherhood, it is in context of the western media obsession of implying that they are going to take over Egypt, and the middle east. You yourself in your post (which I didn't see when I had posted), talked about them going into power at some stage.

The media fail to report to the west that the Brotherhood have publicly stated that they have no intention of taking or seeking power in Egypt, and that they want to play a part with a coalition Government headed by ElBareidi. They have given him their full support. The Brotherhood had nothing to do with this uprising which in fact has been started by people from all walks of life in Egypt standing together.

In terms of the media, in the past few days as more and more people in the west are tuning into the news for what is going on, and to listen to the reporters, you would think this is a full blown Islamic revolution. Yesterday while muslims in the square gathered for prayer, the christains surrounded them for protection. Nowhere have I seen that reported in the media. Even Robert Fisk spoke about the obsession. Each and every time he has been interviewed, it's the 1st question he is asked.



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: ballinaman on February 04, 2011, 04:34:27 AM
0.45 seconds......enter scum. Shocking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wi3K8T3pPQ&feature=player_embedded
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Eamonnca1 on February 04, 2011, 06:08:56 AM
I see you and I raise you:

Got to warn you, this is pretty horrifying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWOK0Lfh7w&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2011, 10:56:46 AM
A question for you give her dixie.

Do you feel that the people of Egypt (or Jordan or Tunisia) bear ANY responsibility for the political structures of their country and how they have been ruled for the past 30 years or so ?  or is it ALL an american or Israeli conspiracy ?

Without american support mubarak wouldn't have lasted 30 years. Simples.
The ordinary people of Egypt had no choice.   I spent 18 months living in Cairo and everyone I met was sick of the regime .
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2011, 10:59:39 AM
Looking at this as objectively as possible it seems to me to be a bit of a Hobson's choice.

Mubarak, and his US backed military (has there ever been an example of one of their puppets actually working out?) maintaining the status quo or the rise of something called the Muslim Brotherhood right across north Africa and into the middle East?

Oppressive regime A or repressive regime B?

Dogma Sam or Dogma Imam?

Of course this is further complicated by the presence of Israel for whom dogma isn't quite a strong enough word.

Muppet

You have to let the people decide. If they want an Islamic government let them have it. Let them learn that Islam is not the answer.The Irish people got a full on neoliberal government that destroyed the economy. That is what they wanted.   They won't be voting FF again.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2011, 11:02:54 AM
I see you and I raise you:

Got to warn you, this is pretty horrifying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cWOK0Lfh7w&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

Eamonn

Yank failure in the middle East is driving this. The Middle East belongs to the people, not to the US.  It is not a playground for Israel.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c14d4a7c-2fcd-11e0-91f8-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1CbNHqVhF

Do you want to see pictures of what US white phosphorous used by Israel does to children?   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 04, 2011, 11:03:38 AM
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't believe there's the remotest possibility that the people will decide. I'd take America's public position on this with a pound of salt. There is no way the US is going to countenance the potential ceding of control of the Suez Canal to whatever unpredictable popular anti-American regime would emerge if the situation on the streets was just allowed to pay itself out. It could be the Muslim Brotherhood. I'd be fairly certain the US is now dictating how the Egyptian army is deployed to best effect in ensuring the desired outcome from Uncle Sam's point of view.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2011, 11:13:30 AM
Hardy

The US is losing the Egyptian people.
Ní fhagfar faoin tiorán ná faoin tráill !!!! 
In the long run this will be better for everyone.

Israel is trying to scare everyone with the Islam bogeyman.
Israel is like AIB in Sept 2007.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on February 04, 2011, 11:21:02 AM
those 2 videos of the people getting drove over are absolutely horrific
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Ulick on February 04, 2011, 11:43:21 AM
You'll be watching BBC 2 on Thursday night Dixie?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary)

Should be an interesting one

Watched that last night and although I was expecting such attitudes it was shocking and horrific to see such hatred laid bare for everyone to see. It had the wife in tears a few times.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 04, 2011, 12:33:15 PM
You'll be watching BBC 2 on Thursday night Dixie?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00ybyxp)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary (http://www.guardian.co.uk/tv-and-radio/2011/jan/30/louis-theroux-ultra-zionists-documentary)

Should be an interesting one

Watched that last night and although I was expecting such attitudes it was shocking and horrific to see such hatred laid bare for everyone to see. It had the wife in tears a few times.

Was pretty tough viewing at times all right, and like yourself, although I was expecting to see the realities, watching the illegal settlers take bus loads of Christains through the Palestinian neighbourhoods was hard to swallow.

For those who didn't see the show last night, here is the youtube link for the full programme.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTszskhUrd0

In the show, Louis goes to the weekly demo against the seperation wall that is been built with cement from CRH. In 2009, a local man, Bassem Abu Ramah was killed after been shot in the chest with a tear gas cannister. Then 4 weeks ago, his sister was also killed after inhaling the deadly gas.
Go to 3 mins in this video for footage of Bassem's death. Pretty horrific as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yM9U2y-op4&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fresults%3Fsearch_query%3Dbassem%2Babu%2Brahmah%2Bbil%2527in%26aq%3Df&has_verified=1
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on February 04, 2011, 01:34:44 PM
Maybe I'm just cynical, but I don't believe there's the remotest possibility that the people will decide. I'd take America's public position on this with a pound of salt. There is no way the US is going to countenance the potential ceding of control of the Suez Canal to whatever unpredictable popular anti-American regime would emerge if the situation on the streets was just allowed to pay itself out. It could be the Muslim Brotherhood. I'd be fairly certain the US is now dictating how the Egyptian army is deployed to best effect in ensuring the desired outcome from Uncle Sam's point of view.

The Eqyptian army have too much at stake here just to be moderators in this battle. I think Mubarack will be forced out, but don't be expecting true democracy to take hold any time soon.
I'm expecting the military to put one of theirs up to keep the pro US stance to ensure funding for a while yet.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 04, 2011, 02:56:15 PM
Nentanyahu is talking out of his arse these days. Israel does not understand what is happening.
WTF does Shia Iran have to do with Sunni Iran? 

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Speeches+by+Israeli+leaders/2011/PM_Netanyahu_addresses_Knesset_situation_Egypt_2-Feb-2011.htm

The Iranian regime is not interested in seeing an Egypt that protects the rights of individuals, women, and minorities. They are not interested in an enlightened Egypt that embraces the 21st century. They want an Egypt that returns to the Middle Ages. They want Egypt to become another Gaza, run by radical forces that oppose everything that the democratic world stands for. We have two separate worlds here, two opposites, two world views: that of the free, democratic world and that of the radical world. Which one of them will prevail in Egypt?
The answer to this question is crucial to the future of Egypt, of the region and to our own future here in Israel.
Our stand is clear. We support the forces that promote freedom, progress and peace. We oppose the forces that seek to enforce a dark despotism, terrorism and war.

Here is what Israeli freedom looks like in Gaza.

http://www.newsrescue.com/2009/10/unhrc-endorses-goldstone-report-on-israel-war-crimes-against-gaza/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 04, 2011, 03:23:57 PM
those 2 videos of the people getting drove over are absolutely horrific

Absolutely brutal viewing.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 06, 2011, 01:28:04 AM
Robert Fisk: Mubarak is going. He is on the cusp of final departure
Sunday, 6 February 2011

The old man is going. The resignation last night of the leadership of the ruling Egyptian National Democratic Party – including Hosni Mubarak's son Gamal – will not appease those who want to claw the President down. But they will get their blood. The whole vast edifice of power which the NDP represented in Egypt is now a mere shell, a propaganda poster with nothing behind it.


The sight of Mubarak's delusory new Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq telling Egyptians yesterday that things were "returning to normal" was enough to prove to the protesters in Tahrir Square – 12 days into their mass demand for the exile of the man who has ruled the country for 30 years – that the regime was made of cardboard. When the head of the army's central command personally pleaded with the tens of thousands of pro-democracy demonstrators in the square to go home, they simply howled him down.

In his novel The Autumn of the Patriarch, Gabriel Garcia Marquez outlines the behaviour of a dictator under threat and his psychology of total denial. In his glory days, the autocrat believes he is a national hero. Faced with rebellion, he blames "foreign hands" and "hidden agendas" for this inexplicable revolt against his benevolent but absolute rule. Those fomenting the insurrection are "used and manipulated by foreign powers who hate our country". Then – and here I use a precis of Marquez by the great Egyptian author Alaa Al-Aswany – "the dictator tries to test the limits of the engine, by doing everything except what he should do. He becomes dangerous. After that, he agrees to do anything they want him to do. Then he goes away".

Hosni Mubarak of Egypt appears to be on the cusp of stage four – the final departure. For 30 years he was the "national hero" – participant in the 1973 war, former head of the Egyptian air force, natural successor to Gamal Abdel Nasser as well as Anwar Sadat – and then, faced with his people's increasing fury at his dictatorial rule, his police state and his torturers and the corruption of his regime, he blamed the dark shadow of the country's fictional enemies (al-Qa'ida, the Muslim Brotherhood, al-Jazeera, CNN, America). We may just have passed the dangerous phase.

Twenty-two lawyers were arrested by Mubarak's state security police on Thursday – for assisting yet more civil rights lawyers who were investigating the arrest and imprisonment of more than 600 Egyptian protesters. The vicious anti-riot cops who were mercifully driven off the streets of Cairo nine days ago and the drug-addled gangs paid by them are part of the wounded and dangerous dictator's remaining weapons. These thugs – who work directly under ministry of interior orders – are the same men now shooting at night into Tahrir Square, killing three men and wounding another 40 early on Friday morning. Mubarak's weepy interview with Christiane Amanpour last week – in which he claimed he didn't want to be president but had to carry on for another seven months to save Egypt from "chaos" – was the first hint that stage four was on the way.

Al-Aswany has taken to romanticising the revolution (if that is what it truly is). He has fallen into the habit of holding literary mornings before joining the insurrectionists, and last week he suggested that a revolution makes a man more honourable – just as falling in love makes a person more dignified. I suggested to him that a lot of people who fall in love spend an inordinate amount of time eliminating their rivals and that I couldn't think of a revolution that hadn't done the same. But his reply, that Egypt had been a liberal society since the days of Muhammad Ali Pasha and was the first Arab country (in the 19th century) to enjoy party politics, did carry conviction.

If Mubarak goes today or later this week, Egyptians will debate why it took so long to rid themselves of this tin-pot dictator. The problem was that under the autocrats – Nasser, Sadat, Mubarak and whomever Washington blesses next – the Egyptian people skipped two generations of maturity. For the first essential task of a dictator is to "infantilise" his people, to transform them into political six-year-olds, obedient to a patriarchal headmaster. They will be given fake newspapers, fake elections, fake ministers and lots of false promises. If they obey, they might even become one of the fake ministers; if they disobey, they will be beaten up in the local police station, or imprisoned in the Tora jail complex or, if persistently violent, hanged.

Only when the power of youth and technology forced this docile Egyptian population to grow up and stage its inevitable revolt did it become evident to all of these previously "infantilised" people that the government was itself composed of children, the eldest of them 83 years old. Yet, by a ghastly process of political osmosis, the dictator had for 30 years also "infantilised" his supposedly mature allies in the West. They bought the line that Mubarak alone remained the iron wall holding back the Islamic tide seeping across Egypt and the rest of the Arab world. The Muslim Brotherhood – with genuine historical roots in Egypt and every right to enter parliament in a fair election – remains the bogeyman on the lips of every news presenter, although they have not the slightest idea what it is or was.

But now the infantilisation has gone further. Lord Blair of Isfahan popped up on CNN the other night, blustering badly when asked if he would compare Mubarak with Saddam Hussein. Absolutely not, he said. Saddam had impoverished a country that once had a higher standard of living than Belgium – while Mubarak had increased Egypt's GDP by 50 per cent in 10 years.

What Blair should have said was that Saddam killed tens of thousands of his own people while Mubarak has killed/hanged/tortured only a few thousand. But Blair's shirt is now almost as blood-spattered as Saddam's; so dictators, it seems, must now be judged only on their economic record. Obama went one further. Mubarak, he told us early yesterday, was "a proud man, but a great patriot".

This was extraordinary. To make such a claim, it was necessary to believe that the massive evidence of savagery by Egypt's state security police over 30 years, the torture and the vicious treatment of demonstrators over the past 13 days, was unknown to the dictator. Mubarak, in his elderly innocence, may have been aware of corruption and perhaps the odd "excess" – a word we are beginning to hear again in Cairo – but not of the systematic abuse of human rights, the falsity of every election.

This is the old Russian fairy tale. The tsar is a great father figure, a revered and perfect leader. It's just that he does not know what his underlings are doing. He doesn't realise how badly the serfs are treated. If only someone would tell him the truth, he would end injustice. The tsar's servants, of course, connived at this.

But Mubarak was not ignorant of the injustice of his regime. He survived by repression and threats and false elections. He always had. Like Sadat. Like Nasser who – according to the testimony of one of his victims who was a friend of mine – permitted his torturers to dangle prisoners over vats of boiling faeces and gently dunk them in it. Over 30 years, successive US ambassadors have informed Mubarak of the cruelties perpetrated in his name. Occasionally, Mubarak would express surprise and once promised to end police brutality, but nothing ever changed. The tsar fully approved of what his secret policemen were doing.

Thus, when David Cameron announced that "if" the authorities were behind the violence in Egypt, it would be "absolutely unacceptable" – a threat that naturally had them shaking in their shoes – the word "if" was a lie. Cameron, unless he doesn't bother to read the Foreign Office briefings on Mubarak, is well aware that the old man was a third-rate dictator who employed violence to stay in power.

The demonstrators in Cairo and Alexandria and Port Said, of course, are nonetheless entering a period of great fear. Their "Day of Departure" on Friday – predicated on the idea that if they really believed Mubarak would leave last week, he would somehow follow the will of the people – turned yesterday into the "Day of Disillusion". They are now constructing a committee of economists, intellectuals, "honest" politicians to negotiate with Vice-President Omar Suleiman – without apparently realising that Suleiman is the next safe-pair-of-hands general to be approved by the Americans, that Suleiman is a ruthless man who will not hesitate to use the same state security police as Mubarak relied upon to eliminate the state's enemies in Tahrir Square.

Betrayal always follows a successful revolution. And this may yet come to pass. The dark cynicism of the regime remains. Many pro-democracy demonstrators have noticed a strange phenomenon. In the months before the protests broke out on 25 January, a series of attacks on Coptic Christians and their churches spread across Egypt. The Pope called for the protection of Egypt's 10 per cent Christians. The West was appalled. Mubarak blamed it all on the familiar "foreign hand". But then after 25 January, not a hair of a Coptic head has been harmed. Why? Because the perpetrators had other violent missions to perform?

When Mubarak goes, terrible truths will be revealed. The world, as they say, waits. But none wait more attentively, more bravely, more fearfully than the young men and women in Tahrir Square. If they are truly on the edge of victory, they are safe. If they are not, there will come the midnight knock on many a door.

The key players

Hosni Mubarak

A former Egyptian air force commander who was thrust into power after Anwar Sadat's assassination in 1982, Mubarak has proved to be a ruthless and resilient President. By combining political repression at home with close relations with the US, and relatively cordial relations with Israel, he has been able to retain Egypt's place as a pivotal voice in the Arab world. His handling of the Egyptian economy has been less successful, however.


Ahmed Shafik

Like President Mubarak, Prime Minister Shafik's background is in the Egyptian air force, which he at one point commanded; he has also served as aviation minister. Both his military background and his reputation for efficiency as a government minister made him an obvious choice during the reshuffle forced by the protests.


Omar Suleiman

As the head of the Mukhabarat, Egypt's secret service, Suleiman was one of the most powerful and feared men in Egypt. He also cultivated a close relationship with the US: Mukhabarat cells became one of the destinations for terror suspects who had been "renditioned" by the CIA. As Egypt's new Vice-President, however, he hardly represents a new face for the Mubarak regime. Reports of an assassination attempt against him last week have been denied by the Egyptian authorities.


Mohamed Elbaradei

Winner of the Nobel Peace prize, the former head of the International Atomic Energy Agency has the highest international profile of Mubarak's potential successors. However, he still lacks a strong domestic support base in Egypt, and among the Tahrir Square protesters. It remains to be seen whether he has time to build that kind of support before Mubarak leaves.

Quotes...

"We need to get a national consensus around the pre-conditions for the next step forward. The President must stay in office to steer those changes."

Frank Wisner, US special envoy for Egypt

"There are forces at work in any society, and particularly one that is facing these kinds of challenges, that will try to derail or overtake the process to pursue their own specific agenda.... [That is] why I think it is important to support the transition process announced by the Egyptian government, actually headed by now Vice-President Omar Suleiman."

Hillary Clinton, US Secretary of State

"We need a transition of power within a constitutional framework. At this stage, we have two possible directions: either constitutional reforms or a coup d'état by the army. I don't see another way out."

Mounir Fakhry Abdel Nour, secretary general of the liberal Wafd Party

"I don't believe that we solve the world's problems by flicking a switch and holding an election.... Egypt is a classic case in point."

David Cameron, speaking at security conference in Munich

"I think a very quick election at the start of a process of democratisation would be wrong.... If there is an election first, new structures of political dialogue and decision-making don't have a chance to develop."

Angela Merkel, German Chancellor

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 06, 2011, 02:03:54 PM
Another horrific video has appeared on the internet where a young man is shot at close range by the police.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEkqmx-skGg  go to 1 45.

Good article from Noam Chomsky on the current situation in the middle east:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/feb/04/radical-islam-united-states-independence

It now seems that the US have done a 180 degree turnaround and now want Mubarak to stay in power.
Frank Wisner the US ambassador to Egypt has now come out in support of the dictator, and so too it seems, David Cameron. The people in Egypt want Mubarak to step down, and the UK and the US should respect the wishes of the people.

In the square today, the Coptic Christains held an open air mass, surrounded by muslims. On friday as the muslims prayed, the Coptics surrounded them for protection. A fantastic show of solidarity between the 2 groups.

Talks are talking place now with the opposition parties and Mubaraks regime. Hopefully there will be a sensible outcome, and Mubarak steps down, and democratic elections are held very soon.

Today, as US and british occupation forces face the taliban in Afghanistan, the man that armed the "Freedom Fighters" in Afghanistan, Ronnie Reagan,  will be remembered at the super bowl. The same man who dedicated the 1982 shuttle launch to their bravery in fighting the USSR occupation armies. Oh, how times have changed.......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvFj1QIn1EA&feature=related
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 06, 2011, 02:44:30 PM
Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt’s Internet and cell phone “kill switch” was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: “It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities.”

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow “deep packet inspection,”. Narus technology “allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down.”

All of the above is in the public record.

Egypt is key. If Mubarak falls then Saudi will be next. Egypt and Saudi have been buying US weaponry for the last 30 years. Together they would beat Israel. Especially if Iran joined in.  Yank nightmare.
:D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 06, 2011, 02:47:55 PM
Every arab nation could join in to fight israel and they would never beat them, that is naive thinking, they have been down that road before and got their arses handed to them, the great Nasser tried it with allies and got fcuked.

Israel has nuclear weaponry, it seems a lot here would love for israel to falll, be careful what you wish for.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 06, 2011, 03:06:14 PM
Personally, I can't see an Arab alliance get together and start a war with Israel. Not only do they have 200+ Nuclear weapons, they join India, Pakistan, and North Korea in not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
They would have no problem pushing the button, and firing off a few in the direction of Iran.
Plus, if other Arab states get rid of their US backed dictators, then the US would step in and support Israel in the event of an attack. There would only be one winner if a war broke out.

The best the Arab nations can hope for is for Israel to honour international law, stop their illegal stealing of Palestinian land, move back to the '67 borders, lift the siege on Gaza, and allow for the right of return of the 7 million or so Palestinian refugees who are scattered all over the middle east and beyond. This right is enshrined by a UN resolution.

Failing that, then a one state solution is the next best option. No walls, no siege, right of return for the refugee's, and a democratic state. Somehow, I can't see this happening.

Israel is too well equipped, and with full support of the US, an attack on them would be stupid, and I for one wouldn't want to see it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 06, 2011, 03:48:32 PM
Personally, I can't see an Arab alliance get together and start a war with Israel. Not only do they have 200+ Nuclear weapons, they join India, Pakistan, and North Korea in not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
They would have no problem pushing the button, and firing off a few in the direction of Iran.
Plus, if other Arab states get rid of their US backed dictators, then the US would step in and support Israel in the event of an attack. There would only be one winner if a war broke out.

The best the Arab nations can hope for is for Israel to honour international law, stop their illegal stealing of Palestinian land, move back to the '67 borders, lift the siege on Gaza, and allow for the right of return of the 7 million or so Palestinian refugees who are scattered all over the middle east and beyond. This right is enshrined by a UN resolution.

Failing that, then a one state solution is the next best option. No walls, no siege, right of return for the refugee's, and a democratic state. Somehow, I can't see this happening.

Israel is too well equipped, and with full support of the US, an attack on them would be stupid, and I for one wouldn't want to see it.

Yep. the Golan heights are not very valuable from a military standpoint, israel will be happy to hand them over, and by the way, Israel took the land after they were attacked by Arabs from multiple countries and defeated then inside of a week.

I take exception to the ststement that they would have no problem pushing the button, if backed into a corner they would but sure who wouldnt?

You blame the US and the Israelis for everything and fawn over the arabs, there is good and bad in both, too bad you will not allow yourself to see that.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 06, 2011, 03:53:18 PM
From the western Golan, it is only about 60 miles -- without major terrain obstacles -- to Haifa and Acre, Israel's industrial heartland. The Golan -- rising from 400 to 1700 feet in the western section bordering on pre­1967 Israel -- overlooks the Huleh Valley, Israel's richest agricultural area. In the hands of a friendly neighbor, the escarpment has little military importance. If controlled by a hostile country, however, the Golan has the potential to again become a strategic nightmare for Israel.

From 1948-67, when Syria controlled the Golan Heights, it used the area as a military stronghold from which its troops randomly sniped at Israeli civilians in the Huleh Valley below, forcing children living on kibbutzim to sleep in bomb shelters. In addition, many roads in northern Israel could be crossed only after probing by mine-detection vehicles. In late 1966, a youth was blown to pieces by a mine while playing football near the Lebanon border. In some cases, attacks were carried out by Yasir Arafat's Fatah, which Syria allowed to operate from its territory.

Israel's options for countering the Syrian attacks were constrained by the geography of the Heights. "Counterbattery fires were limited by the lack of observation from the Huleh Valley; air attacks were degraded by well-dug-in Syrian positions with strong overhead cover, and a ground attack against the positions...would require major forces with the attendant risks of heavy casualties and severe political repercussions," U.S. Army Col. (Ret.) Irving Heymont observed.



Israel repeatedly, and unsuccessfully, protested the Syrian bombardments to the UN Mixed Armistice Commission, which was charged with policing the cease-fire. For example, Israel went to the UN in October 1966 to demand a halt to the Fatah attacks. The response from Damascus was defiant. "It is not our duty to stop them, but to encourage and strengthen them," the Syrian ambassador responded. Nothing was done to stop Syria's aggression. A mild Security Council resolution expressing "regret" for such incidents was vetoed by the Soviet Union. Meanwhile, Israel was condemned by the UN when it retaliated. "As far as the Security Council was officially concerned," historian Netanel Lorch wrote, "there was an open season for killing Israelis on their own territory."

After the Six-Day War began, the Syrian air force attempted to bomb oil refineries in Haifa. While Israel was fighting in the Sinai and West Bank, Syrian artillery bombarded Israeli forces in the eastern Galilee, and armored units fired on villages in the Huleh Valley below the Golan Heights.

On June 9, 1967, Israel moved against Syrian forces on the Golan. By late afternoon, June 10, Israel was in complete control of the plateau. Israel's seizure of the strategic heights occurred only after 19 years of provocation from Syria, and after unsuccessful efforts to get the international community to act against the aggressors.

Six years later, in a surprise attack on Yom Kippur, the Syrians overran the Golan Heights before being repulsed by Israeli counterattacks. After the war, Syria signed a disengagement agreement that left the Golan in Israel's hands. [See map]

On December 14, 1981, the Knesset voted to annex the Golan Heights. The statute extended Israeli civilian law and administration to the residents of the Golan, replacing the military authority that had ruled the area since 1967.

Since 1974, Syria has adhered to the cease-fire on the Golan, largely because of the presence of Israeli troops within artillery range of Damascus. But during this time, Syria has provided a haven and supported numerous terrorist groups that attack Israel from Lebanon and other countries. These include the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP); the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), Hezbollah and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine­General Command (PFLP­GC). In addition, Syria still deploys hundreds of thousands of troops-as much as 75 percent of its army-on the Israeli front near the Heights.

As the peace process faltered in 1996-97, Syria began to renew threats of war with Israel and to make threatening troop movements. Some Israeli analysts have warned of the possibility of a lightning strike by Syrian forces aimed at retaking the Golan. The Israeli Defense Forces have countered the Syrian moves; however, and -- to this point -- preserved the peace.

Prospects for Peace
For Israel, relinquishing the Golan to a hostile Syria could jeopardize its early-warning system against surprise attack. Israel has built radars on Mt. Hermon, the highest point in the region. If Israel withdrew from the Golan and had to relocate these facilities to the lowlands of the Galilee, they would lose much of their strategic effectiveness.

One possible compromise might be a partial Israeli withdrawal, along the lines of its 1974 disengagement agreement with Syria. Another would be a complete withdrawal, with the Golan becoming a demilitarized zone.

After losing the 1999 election, Benjamin Netanyahu confirmed reports that he had engaged in secret talks with Syrian President Hafez Assad to withdraw from the Golan and maintain a strategic early-warning station on Mount Hermon. Publicly, Assad continued to insist on a total withdrawal with no compromises and indicated no willingness to go beyond agreeing to a far more limited "non­belligerency" deal with Israel than the full peace treaty Israel has demanded.

The election of Ehud Barak stimulated new movement in the peace process, with intensive negotiations held in the United States in January 2000 between Barak and Syrian Foreign Minister Farouk al-Sharaa.  These talks raised new hope for the conclusion of a peace treaty, but the discussions did not bear fruit. President Assad died in June 2000 and no further talks have been held as Assad's son and successor, Bashar has moved to consolidate his power. Rhetorically, Bashar has not indicated any shift in Syria's position on the Golan.

Israeli Settlements in the Golan Heights (February 1992)
 

Press reports suggest Israel has expressed a willingness to withdraw from a significant part of the Golan Heights if it can get from Syria security guarantees and normal relations.

In an interview with the Israeli Defense Ministry’s monthly Bitachon, Deputy Defense Minister Ephraim Sneh said the topographical concerns associated with withdrawing from the Golan Heights could be offset by demilitarization. "Our red line needs to be a defensible border," Sneh said, "a border where the chief of General Staff can come to the government or the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee and say: ‘From this line I can defend the State of Israel with minimum losses.’" Sneh added, "the deeper the demilitarization and the better the early warning, the more we will allow ourselves to be flexible topographically." Sneh also emphasized that Israel could not compromise on water sources.

Besides military security, a key to peace with Syria, Sneh said, would be the normalization of relations between the two countries. "When an Israeli thinks of normalization he wants to get up in the morning and take his wife and kids on a shopping trip to Damascus and come home," Sneh said. "The Syrians see normalization as an exchange of ambassadors and flight links – maximum. We need to demand that it be a peace warmer than with Egypt, closer to the type of peace we have with Jordan."

In the meantime, substantial opposition exists within Israel to withdrawing from the Golan Heights. The expectation of many is that public opinion will shift if and when the Syrians sign an agreement and take measures, such as reigning in Hezbollah attacks on Israel from southern Lebanon, that demonstrate a genuine interest in peace. And public opinion will determine whether a treaty is concluded because Barak has said any agreement must be approved in a national referendum (a law to this effect was passed under Netanyahu).

Absent dramatic changes in Syria's government and its attitude toward Israel; however, the Jewish State's security will depend on its retention of military control over the Golan Heights.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maps courtesy of The Jewish Connection and Maps of the Middle East.   


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 06, 2011, 04:33:49 PM
Personally, I can't see an Arab alliance get together and start a war with Israel. Not only do they have 200+ Nuclear weapons, they join India, Pakistan, and North Korea in not signing the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty.
They would have no problem pushing the button, and firing off a few in the direction of Iran.
Plus, if other Arab states get rid of their US backed dictators, then the US would step in and support Israel in the event of an attack. There would only be one winner if a war broke out.

The best the Arab nations can hope for is for Israel to honour international law, stop their illegal stealing of Palestinian land, move back to the '67 borders, lift the siege on Gaza, and allow for the right of return of the 7 million or so Palestinian refugees who are scattered all over the middle east and beyond. This right is enshrined by a UN resolution.

Failing that, then a one state solution is the next best option. No walls, no siege, right of return for the refugee's, and a democratic state. Somehow, I can't see this happening.

Israel is too well equipped, and with full support of the US, an attack on them would be stupid, and I for one wouldn't want to see it.

Yep. the Golan heights are not very valuable from a military standpoint, israel will be happy to hand them over, and by the way, Israel took the land after they were attacked by Arabs from multiple countries and defeated then inside of a week.

So, does that make it ok for Israel to occupy the Golan Heights because they stole them? Israel were attacked by Arab nations after they started the war by attacking Egypt. The Arab nations joined in after Israel started the 6 day war.

I take exception to the ststement that they would have no problem pushing the button, if backed into a corner they would but sure who wouldnt?

How do you take exception? do you not think Israel would use a nuclear bomb? For the past few years they have been itching to attack Iran, and I have no doubt they would use a nuclear bomb. The US had no problem using it.

You blame the US and the Israelis for everything and fawn over the arabs, there is good and bad in both, too bad you will not allow yourself to see that.

Considering that the unrest in the area started with Israel expelling 1 million Palestinians in 1948, and have been backed by the US and their puppet dictators ever since in their genocidal policies, who else is to blame? The Mexicans?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 06, 2011, 06:27:21 PM
Bush cancels Switzerland visit under threat of protests, efforts to arrest him
 
President George W. Bush has canceled an event in the famously neutral country Switzerland because of expected protests to his presence there.

Bush was supposed to give the keynote address at a Jewish group's charity gala on Feb. 12 in Geneva.

Leftist groups had planned to protest the visit, according to news agencies. But several human rights groups had also filed criminal complaints against Bush, demanding that he be taken into custody if he stepped on Swiss soil and investigated for allegations of ordering torture.

A right-wing member of the Swiss parliament also demanded last week Bush's arrest on war crimes allegations if he came to the country, according to Reuters.


Swiss officials countered that, as a former head of state, Bush would be protected with a level of diplomatic immunity, and Keren Hayesod, the group that had invited Bush, said the court actions against the former president did not play into the decision to go forward with the dinner without him.

"We didn't want to put people and property in Geneva at risk. The gala is maintained but George Bush will not take part," the group's lawyer, Robert Equey told the Tribune de Geneve. "The (criminal) complaints did not weigh in the decision."

He noted protests against the G8 summit just across the border in France in 2003 that ended up rampaging through Geneva.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: All of a Sludden on February 10, 2011, 03:23:22 PM
Mubarak to address the nation tonight, it is expected that he will stand down.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 10, 2011, 03:30:03 PM
Stew

There is no need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Trout on February 10, 2011, 10:05:17 PM
Mubarak refuses to stand down.

Where are all the Gaa Board Middle East experts tonight?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Orangemac on February 10, 2011, 11:43:06 PM
You have to laugh at these experts. "Mubarak is going to announce he is stepping down".

For this read 2/3 years ago " Mugabe is about to step down", "Silvio Berlosconi is facing another crisis of his leadership".

These people care about 1 thing, power and they will do anything to keep it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on February 11, 2011, 12:06:10 AM
Mubarak refuses to stand down.

Where are all the Gaa Board Middle East experts tonight?

And say what? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: All of a Sludden on February 11, 2011, 01:35:15 PM
You have to laugh at these experts. "Mubarak is going to announce he is stepping down".

It was being reported on RTE and BBC.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 11, 2011, 01:53:55 PM
Mubarak refuses to stand down.

Where are all the Gaa Board Middle East experts tonight?

What is this supposed to mean, GAAboard members are to blame that a US loving dictator won't step down?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Declan on February 11, 2011, 02:15:10 PM
Report: Mubarak flies out of Cairo
Friday, February 11, 2011 - 01:23 PM

There is an unconfirmed report the Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak has left Cairo as tens of thousands of angry protestors once again take to the streets demanding he resign.

Al Arabiya television said President Mubarak and his family have flown to an unknown destination from a military airbase.

Last night the President made a television address, re-iterating his pledge to stay in charge until elections in September.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/world/report-mubarak-flies-out-of-cairo-493093.html#ixzz1DexxcHOC
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: AZOffaly on February 11, 2011, 02:18:06 PM
Report: Mubarak flies out of Cairo
Friday, February 11, 2011 - 01:23 PM

There is an unconfirmed report the Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak has left Cairo as tens of thousands of angry protestors once again take to the streets demanding he resign.

Al Arabiya television said President Mubarak and his family have flown to an unknown destination from a military airbase.

Last night the President made a television address, re-iterating his pledge to stay in charge until elections in September.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/world/report-mubarak-flies-out-of-cairo-493093.html#ixzz1DexxcHOC

Lucky for the GAABoard experts eh Trout?

I'd say the military said 'hey Boss, time for you to get the hell out of Dodge. We're not going to fight if the people go ape'.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: omagh_gael on February 11, 2011, 04:27:13 PM
Mubarak steps down, the people win!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 11, 2011, 04:39:36 PM
What a moment, what a revolution, what a monster Mubarak was, what joy in Egypt, what a difference this is going to make, what a future.....

I'm absolutely delighted, and fair play to the Egyptians. They stood tall for 18 days after having been brutalised for 30 years by Mubarak. They deserve this day, and lets hope it's the dawn of a new era not only in Egypt, but across the middle east.

The people need to decide who runs their country, not dictators.

Viva Revolution, Viva Egypt......
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 11, 2011, 04:49:59 PM
I wouldn't hold my breath. How many revolutions in history can we say actually delivered what they promised? If history is anything to go by, this will just be the replacement of one oppressive regime with another. The strongest/most ruthless group/individual will come to the fore and the people will continue to get it in the neck as usual.

Sorry for the pessimism.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 11, 2011, 05:03:44 PM
To compensate for my downbeat post above - evolution of Tahrir Square head armour:
(No. 7 is my winner, far and away).














Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Minder on February 11, 2011, 05:23:54 PM
He has probably had to charter a Jumbo jet to take the dough and gold with him
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 11, 2011, 05:26:20 PM
Stew

There is no need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.

I dont agree with israel and they way they have treated the palestinians, they have wil short memories imho.

Syria, along with Egypt and Jordan attacked israel and when you do that, you tend to lose property and land when you lose the war, they attacked the Israelis and got the living shit kicked out of them in less than a week.

I deplore what they are doing to the palestinians and what the Arabs are trying to do to them and the whole region is fcuked up and has been for practicially ever.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 11, 2011, 05:35:34 PM
Stew, in the 6 day war in 1967, Israel started the war by attacking Egypt. Check it out if you don't believe me.

Secondly, under international law, a nation can't steal another nations land, and occupy said land. Thus, the land stole in the '67 war by Israel is illegal.

Stew, what if someone came and marked off half of your property by force, and set up shop and occupy it? What would you do?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 05:53:53 PM
Stew

There is no need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.

I dont agree with israel and they way they have treated the palestinians, they have wil short memories imho.

Syria, along with Egypt and Jordan attacked israel and when you do that, you tend to lose property and land when you lose the war, they attacked the Israelis and got the living shit kicked out of them in less than a week.

I deplore what they are doing to the palestinians and what the Arabs are trying to do to them and the whole region is fcuked up and has been for practicially ever.

That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.

Israel just lost its most important ally in the region and is now down to Jordan.
First thing to go hopefully will be the deal that has Egypt sell $14bn worth of gas to Israel for $2bn.
Second will be the inhuman siege of Gaza
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Bord na Mona man on February 11, 2011, 06:03:44 PM
That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.
What was the lineage of those Spanish Jews?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 11, 2011, 06:09:36 PM
Mubarak and his family/minions will have used this intervening period to make sure they've got most of their spoils offshore. The media circus would have just been the smokescreen to the important task of getting their wealth to a safe place (if it wasn't already). Is there any chance the American regimes will try and cliam now they are a friend of "the people" NOW they have spoken? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 11, 2011, 06:12:46 PM
Stew, what if someone came and marked off half of your property by force, and set up shop and occupy it? What would you do?

Do you really need to ask that question GHD?  :)


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 06:14:48 PM
That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.
What was the lineage of those Spanish Jews?

I think most of them must have arrived with the Arab conquest so they would have been Eastern Jews but it's not very easy to link them back to the biblical Jews because most of those.. became Palestinians. The Ashkenazi Jews who lived in Poland and russia are probably linked to an old Black Sea kingdom called Khazaria. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: andoireabu on February 11, 2011, 06:18:33 PM
Is he away or is he holding on to September?

Israel just lost its most important ally in the region and is now down to Jordan.
First thing to go hopefully will be the deal that has Egypt sell $14bn worth of gas to Israel for $2bn.
Second will be the inhuman siege of Gaza

Those in that order are the reason the world is the shape it is imo.  Money first, then the ordinary people
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 11, 2011, 06:30:53 PM
Stew, in the 6 day war in 1967, Israel started the war by attacking Egypt. Check it out if you don't believe me.


An alternate view is that the closure of the straits to Israeli shipping by Jordan at the end of May, and the invitation for Iraqi troops to form ranks in Jordan, The expuslion of the United Nations peace keeping force (all acts of impending agression) - could be determined to be (and were determined to be by Israel) - the intitian of war by the arab nations on Israel. It's no secret that there is reference to both Egypt and Israel as either the agressors or defenders of the 6 day war. It all depends on the agenda of who presents the facts.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 11, 2011, 06:34:32 PM
Stew

There is no need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.

I dont agree with israel and they way they have treated the palestinians, they have wil short memories imho.

Syria, along with Egypt and Jordan attacked israel and when you do that, you tend to lose property and land when you lose the war, they attacked the Israelis and got the living shit kicked out of them in less than a week.

I deplore what they are doing to the palestinians and what the Arabs are trying to do to them and the whole region is fcuked up and has been for practicially ever.

That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.

Israel just lost its most important ally in the region and is now down to Jordan.
First thing to go hopefully will be the deal that has Egypt sell $14bn worth of gas to Israel for $2bn.
Second will be the inhuman siege of Gaza

jesus, no wonder the place is f**ked up with simplistic western idiots like you sticking your nose in an pronouncing who does and does not belong in a certain area.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 06:35:43 PM
LBJ told the Israelis that they would easily defeat Nasser and that Nasser would not attack. Israel agreed

The establishment of the state of Israel against the wishes of the local people would only be imaginable in Ireland if a crowd of people claiming to be descendants from the Tuatha de Danann , backed up by the US, turned up and claimed that the whole island belonged to them.  Even the Unionists wouldn't try that one.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 11, 2011, 06:48:41 PM
Stew, what if someone came and marked off half of your property by force, and set up shop and occupy it? What would you do?

Do you really need to ask that question GHD?  :)





Whereas the skull would fawn all over the fcukers grateful for the half he has left, liberal wally that he is. :P
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 11, 2011, 06:53:01 PM
(Reuters) - Switzerland has frozen assets that may belong to Hosni Mubarak, who stepped down as president of Egypt on Friday after 30 years of rule, the foreign ministry said.

"I can confirm that Switzerland has frozen possible assets of the former Egyptian president with immediate effect," spokesman Lars Knuchel said soon after Mubarak bowed to 18 days of mass protests. "As a result of this measure any assets are frozen for three years."

He did not say how much money was involved or where it was.

Assets belonging to Mubarak's associates would also be targeted so as to limit the chance of state funds being plundered, the ministry said. Mubarak and his associates would be prevented from selling or otherwise disposing of property, notably real estate.

In recent years, Switzerland has worked hard to improve its image as a haven for ill-gotten assets.

It has also frozen assets belonging to Tunisia's former president Zine al-Abidine Ben Ali, ousted by popular protests last month, and Ivory Coast's Laurent Gbagbo, who has refused to step down after an election which the outside world says he lost.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 11, 2011, 06:54:53 PM
[o need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.
[/quote]

I dont agree with israel and they way they have treated the palestinians, they have wil short memories imho.

Syria, along with Egypt and Jordan attacked israel and when you do that, you tend to lose property and land when you lose the war, they attacked the Israelis and got the living shit kicked out of them in less than a week.

I deplore what they are doing to the palestinians and what the Arabs are trying to do to them and the whole region is fcuked up and has been for practicially ever.
[/quote]

That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.

Israel just lost its most important ally in the region and is now down to Jordan.
First thing to go hopefully will be the deal that has Egypt sell $14bn worth of gas to Israel for $2bn.
Second will be the inhuman siege of Gaza
[/quote]

jesus, no wonder the place is f**ked up with simplistic western idiots like you sticking your nose in an pronouncing who does and does not belong in a certain area.
[/quote]

Well said sheehy, the arrogance from the Jew haters on this site is remarkable. Israel has the right to exist, like it or not. the Palestinians have to get their home as well, this should have been resolved years ago and rejected.....................by the palestinians.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 11, 2011, 06:58:07 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mannix on February 11, 2011, 07:03:40 PM
What a crazy world we live in, France and a few more are saying the Muslims are not welcome anymore. Could a big war be on the horizon?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 11, 2011, 07:08:08 PM
LBJ told the Israelis that they would easily defeat Nasser and that Nasser would not attack. Israel agreed

The establishment of the state of Israel against the wishes of the local people would only be imaginable in Ireland if a crowd of people claiming to be descendants from the Tuatha de Danann , backed up by the US, turned up and claimed that the whole island belonged to them.  Even the Unionists wouldn't try that one.

You are just another westerner interfering in middle east affairs, what right do you have to say who belongs where ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 11, 2011, 07:11:45 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 11, 2011, 07:15:13 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 11, 2011, 07:24:07 PM
What a crazy world we live in, France and a few more are saying the Muslims are not welcome anymore. Could a big war be on the horizon?

I think as the west loses it's grip in the middle east...the more likely hood there is for all out war
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 11, 2011, 07:30:48 PM
Stew, what if someone came and marked off half of your property by force, and set up shop and occupy it? What would you do?

Do you really need to ask that question GHD?  :)





Whereas the skull would fawn all over the fcukers grateful for the half he has left, liberal wally that he is. :P

Just read your contribution on the Computer Confessions thread stewy so had to change that pic to suit  :)

Some seriously disturbing ways of thinking about religion out there. Is it from the pulpit or is just years of the FOX network that does it to youses?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 11, 2011, 09:07:02 PM
Some seriously disturbing ways of thinking about religion out there. Is it from the pulpit or is just years of the FOX network that does it to youses?

Nothing like a liberal application of Tar with the same brush of a Friday evenin'.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 09:19:15 PM
[o need for hasbara on this site. The Golan belongs to Syria. Israel can't be a sparta forever. It can't run apartheid in the West Bank forever either.  Imagine England clearing every catholic out of County Armagh on some bollocks about security. That is what Israel did in the Golan.

I dont agree with israel and they way they have treated the palestinians, they have wil short memories imho.

Syria, along with Egypt and Jordan attacked israel and when you do that, you tend to lose property and land when you lose the war, they attacked the Israelis and got the living shit kicked out of them in less than a week.

I deplore what they are doing to the palestinians and what the Arabs are trying to do to them and the whole region is fcuked up and has been for practicially ever.
[/quote]

That's bollocks Stew. the middle East was where all of Spain's unwanted Jews found refuge after 1492, Europe didn't want them.
the region could be a superpower today. Israel and oil are the reasons it isn't. Israel doesn't belong in the Middle East.

Israel just lost its most important ally in the region and is now down to Jordan.
First thing to go hopefully will be the deal that has Egypt sell $14bn worth of gas to Israel for $2bn.
Second will be the inhuman siege of Gaza
[/quote]

jesus, no wonder the place is f**ked up with simplistic western idiots like you sticking your nose in an pronouncing who does and does not belong in a certain area.
[/quote]

Stew

I speak arabic and I spent 2 years in the Middle East. How long did you spend in the region? The only reason Israel survives  is because of Western support and the oppression of the Palestinians. 

Israel is the only country in the world that needs nuclear weapons and a US veto to continue in business. Israel is the last colonial state.  Take away the special privileges Israeli Jews have and see how many stay. Most of them will leave.  Very few have made any attempt to understand the neighbours.  Israeli Jews have GNP per head of USD 30,000 and the Gazans down the road live on 2 dollars per day. It is not sustainable.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 09:22:30 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

You need to read up on the Israeli Palestinian conflict. You can start by finding out about the Hebron settlers.
If Kerry was the West Bank you wouldn't be allowed to drive on the main road.  Yoiu wouldn't be allowed to build a house on your own land or drill for water in your parish.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 09:23:30 PM
This is what the fall of Mubarak means for the people of the region

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgw_zfLLvh8&sns=fb

“the most important thing is our rights” “our fate is our dreams”"the heroes speak my words” and the chorus is “on all the streets of my nation the voice of freedom is playing”
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 11, 2011, 10:11:05 PM
I can't help feeling the optimism is misplaced. Another regime will be installed of one flavour or other will be installed and the lives of the people will be unchanged while some other hoor fills his coffers.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 11, 2011, 11:16:18 PM
Ye don't think a popular rising leading to elections will work?  Granted its a long road and who knows what is on it but many a dictator has been felled and a strong democratic country taken its place, see Spain, Italy and Germany.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 11, 2011, 11:36:08 PM
I can't help feeling the optimism is misplaced. Another regime will be installed of one flavour or other will be installed and the lives of the people will be unchanged while some other hoor fills his coffers.


There is no reason why Egypt should  end up like Ireland   ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Orangemac on February 11, 2011, 11:46:44 PM
I can't help feeling the optimism is misplaced. Another regime will be installed of one flavour or other will be installed and the lives of the people will be unchanged while some other hoor fills his coffers.
Have to agree with Tony. In an ideal world there would be free elections with weeks and a democratically appointed leader.

Have the majority of people's lives in South Africa improved after apartheid? "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss".
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2011, 12:04:17 AM
There is a demographic boom in the Arab world and a lot of FT and investment types think the region could have a huge growth burst so if the people get a vote that would help a lot. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2011, 12:50:21 AM
The Middle East economy is going to grow massively over the next decade and Israel is not going to be part of it because Israel has done nothing to build any meaningful links in the region in 63 years. Look at what Turkey is doing (thanks to the morons at AIPAC for the info)

Turkey Increases Its Trade Ties with Iran
 
Turkey has increased its diplomatic and military ties with Iran.
Turkey and Iran will triple their bilateral trade to $30 billion over the next five years, Ha'aretz reported Monday. "There is a political determination in the two countries to develop relations further," said Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Salehi. Turkish State Minister Cevdet Yilmaz also set a target of $30 billion in trade volume. Trade between the two nations rose to $10.7 billion last year from about $1 billion in 2000. It's the economy, Israel.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 12, 2011, 02:22:28 AM
Firstly, the fact that ordinary people from all walks of life got together and said "Enough Is Enough", is amazing. 82 million people who have suffered horric ordeals at the hands of Mubarak, rose up and in 18 days sent him packing. Each and everyone of them are true heroes. No one can deny them their freedom. Not least a brutal dictator. Plus, the fact that western leaders supported him in his brutality is shameful, and their dirty dealing have been laid bare for the world to see.


Personally, on 2 occassions I witnessed their coruptaion and brutality. We had aid taken from our vehicles, were baton charged, and were hit with hundreds of rocks from the police and the secret police. The ordinary Egyptians that we had a chance to talk to, were terrified of the regime. They knew the consequences of speaking out. Egypt, along with the US and Israel enforced the siege on Gaza, now in it's 4th year,  by keeping the Rafah border closed. Over the course of the 22 day attack on Gaza by Israel 2 years ago, Egypt kept the border closed, and people had no where to escape from the brutal attacks that left 1,400 people dead. Mubarak followed his orders from Israel and the US. I can't wait to go back to Gaza through a free Egypt, and through a border that is open to Gaza without restrictions.

 
What happens next? Well, lets just let the Egyptians enjoy this historic moment, and tomorrow they can start to plan their future. They truely deserve their day in the sun. The military are now in charge, and so far they have totally supported the people. Lets hope they stay like that. The constitutaion will be changed, the state of emergency laws will be lifted, and hopefully in 2-4 months, free and democratic elections can be held. It is up to the 82 million Egyptians to elect who leads them, not any outside forces.


What we have witnessed over the past month in the middle east have changed the course of history. For so long the people have been brutally ruled by horrible dictators, and it was all done to protect Oil sources, and Israel. Plain and simple. Several dictators in the region are very nervous, and so are their backers, the US.


Israel had many chances to make peace with their neighbours, and when they did with Jordan and Egypt, it was at the expense of the Palestinians, and a mighty financial contribution from the US. That day is now over. No one will miss the US dollar in Egypt, because it all went on military spending, and Mubaraks back pocket. The people know what the US dollar did to them, and it wasn't for their benefit.


It's a new dawn, its a new day, and personally i'm delighted for the people who showed incredible courage and said goodbye to Mubarak. In a couple of weeks, the Irish people will go to the polls, and they will no doubt re elect the gombeens who have sold Ireland out. The Egyptians will not make the same mistake.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 12, 2011, 04:24:07 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 12, 2011, 04:38:02 AM
Quote
Stew

I speak arabic and I spent 2 years in the Middle East. How long did you spend in the region? The only reason Israel survives  is because of Western support and the oppression of the Palestinians. 

Israel is the only country in the world that needs nuclear weapons and a US veto to continue in business. Israel is the last colonial state.  Take away the special privileges Israeli Jews have and see how many stay. Most of them will leave.  Very few have made any attempt to understand the neighbours.  Israeli Jews have GNP per head of USD 30,000 and the Gazans down the road live on 2 dollars per day. It is not sustainable.   

I dont speak arabic and I have not spent 2 years in the middle east. However, I have worked in Israel for a few months and also Oman so I have some experience of interacting with people who are coming at it from both sides of the argument and the conculsion I came to is that taking sides is pointless. I used to be very anti-Israel and pro palestinian but eventually I grew out of that black and while view of the conflict.

Also, I do have an interest in history and in fact I just finished reading a biography of Lawrence of Arabia..he also spoke fluent arabic. I hope you don't see yourself in his mould do you ? You certainly give off that "westerner knows best" vibe
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2011, 09:45:52 AM
Mike Sheehy

Zionism is an ideology. It is not a religion.    Judaism is about doing to others as they would do to you.
The stranger who dwells amongst you treat him as if he dwells amongst you.

http://vimeo.com/19395262

If the bible had been written in Kerry this is what could happen to you under Zionism. Some bird in a control tower could shoot you
by remote control for the crime of trying to access your family land. It is simply not sustainable.

Israel paves the way for killing by remote control
Jonathan Cook
Last Updated: Jul 13, 2010
 
NAZARETH // It is called Spot and Shoot. Operators sit in front of a TV monitor from which they can control the action with a PlayStation-style joystick. The aim: to kill. Played by: young women serving in the Israeli army. Spot and Shoot, as it is called by the Israeli military, may look like a video game but the figures on the screen are real people - Palestinians in Gaza - who can be killed with the press of a button on the joystick.
The female soldiers, located far away in an operations room, are responsible for aiming and firing remote-controlled machine-guns mounted on watch-towers every few hundred metres along an electronic fence that surrounds Gaza. The system is one of the latest "remote killing" devices developed by Israel's Rafael armaments company, the former weapons research division of the Israeli army and now a separate governmental firm.
According to Giora Katz, Rafael's vice president, remote-controlled military hardware such as Spot and Shoot is the face of the future. He expects that within a decade at least a third of the machines used by the Israeli army to control land, air and sea will be unmanned. The demand for such devices, the Israeli army admits, has been partly fuelled by a combination of declining recruitment levels and a population less ready to risk death in combat.
Oren Berebbi, head of its technology branch, recently told an American newspaper: "We're trying to get to unmanned vehicles everywhere on the battlefield … We can do more and more missions without putting a soldier at risk." Rapid progress with the technology has raised alarm at the United Nations. Philip Alston, its special rapporteur on extrajudicial executions, warned last month of the danger that a "PlayStation mentality to killing" could quickly emerge.
   
According to analysts, however, Israel is unlikely to turn its back on hardware that it has been at the forefront of developing - using the occupied Palestinian territories, and especially Gaza, as testing laboratories. Remotely controlled weapons systems are in high demand from repressive regimes and the burgeoning homeland security industries around the globe. "These systems are still in the early stages of development but there is a large and growing market for them," said Shlomo Brom, a retired general and defence analyst at the Institute of National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University.
The Spot and Shoot system - officially known as Sentry Tech - has mostly attracted attention because it is operated by 19- and 20-year-old female soldiers, making it the Israeli army's only weapons system operated exclusively by women. Female soldiers are preferred to operate remote killing devices because of a shortage of male recruits to Israel's combat units. Young women can carry out missions without breaking the social taboo of risking their lives, said Mr Brom.
The women are supposed to identify anyone suspicious approaching the fence around Gaza and, if authorised by an officer, execute them using their joysticks. The Israeli army, which plans to introduce the technology along Israel's other confrontation lines, refuses to say how many Palestinians have been killed by the remotely controlled machine-guns in Gaza. According to the Israeli media, however, it is believed to be several dozen.
The system was phased-in two years ago for surveillance, but operators were only able to open fire with it more recently. The army admitted using Sentry Tech in December to kill at least two Palestinians several hundred metres inside the fence. The Haaretz newspaper, which was given rare access to a Sentry Tech control room, quoted one soldier, Bar Keren, 20, last week saying: "It's very alluring to be the one to do this. But not everyone wants this job. It's no simple matter to take up a joystick like that of a Sony PlayStation and kill, but ultimately it's for defence."
Audio sensors on the towers mean that the women hear the shot as it kills the target. No woman, Haaretz reported, had failed the task of shooting what the army calls an "incriminated" Palestinian. The Israeli military, which enforces an unmarked no-man's land inside the fence that reaches as deep as 300 metres into the tiny enclave, has been widely criticised for opening fire on civilians entering the closed zone.
Rafael is reported to be developing a version of Sentry Tech that will fire long-range guided missiles. Another piece of hardware recently developed for the Israeli army is the Guardium, an armoured robot-car that can patrol territory at up to 80km per hour, navigate through cities, launch "ambushes" and shoot at targets. It now patrols the Israeli borders with Gaza and Lebanon. Its Israeli developers, G-Nius, have called it the world's first "robot soldier".
But Israel is most known for its role in developing "unmanned aerial vehicles" - or drones, as they have come to be known. Originally intended for spying, and first used by Israel over south Lebanon in the early 1980s, today they are increasingly being used for extrajudicial executions from thousands of feet in the sky. foreign.desk@thenational.ae
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 12, 2011, 10:02:17 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Ok then, could you please define the difference between an outright anti-semite and a whatever type of anti-semite you class him to be? Then could you provide evidence of looking, walking and quacking like this type of anti-semite? Thanks.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 12, 2011, 10:24:09 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 12, 2011, 10:27:49 AM
The future of Egypt is not what is worrying me at the moment it is the reaction of Israel that is of concern. Here we have a dangerous country with a concentration camp full of palestinians who in time may actually have a proper border crossing due to a new regime in Egypt. Sure the yanks will throw money at the new Egyptian regime and try and maintain the status quo but what if the new regime is not interested? What will Israel do then? There are many possibilities but an act of violence is normally what Israel does in this situation.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 12, 2011, 10:47:02 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Right Mike, why don't you post evidence of anywhere I have said anything anti Jewish. You can go through this thread or others. Living in Israel has certainly rubbed off on you, whereby any critism of Israel is "anti semitic."

Plus Mike, a semite refers to someone of middle east origin, so I don't think I could be accused of been anti semitic! Did they not teach you that in Israel?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on February 12, 2011, 11:56:32 AM
A definition.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Semite

Sem·ite (smt)

1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples of the Near East and northern Africa, including the Arabs, Arameans, Babylonians, Carthaginians, Ethiopians, Hebrews, and Phoenicians.
2. A Jew.
3. Bible A descendant of Shem.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 12, 2011, 03:40:22 PM
It's a new dawn, its a new day, and personally i'm delighted for the people who showed incredible courage and said goodbye to Mubarak. In a couple of weeks, the Irish people will go to the polls, and they will no doubt re elect the gombeens who have sold Ireland out. The Egyptians will not make the same mistake.
 
 

Hardly a new dawn when relacing one tyrant with another, Omar was Mubarack's deputy, and we are now to believe he will bring stability.....it will be his turn to get a bigger slice of the cake.

Life will barely change for the ordinary person on the streets of Cairo......this is the reality. 
 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Main Street on February 12, 2011, 03:53:15 PM
The Army has been a central part of the autocracy since Nasser. Army officers are in control, in control of the political process of change and they just happen to be totally entwined with the business interests.
The one sure thing that you can anticipate is that whatever changes, it wont be allowed to go so far as to threaten the Army and its business.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 12, 2011, 04:43:00 PM
Exactly. The people are not in charge and never will be. The people don't have tanks.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 12, 2011, 09:19:29 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Ok then, could you please define the difference between an outright anti-semite and a whatever type of anti-semite you class him to be? Then could you provide evidence of looking, walking and quacking like this type of anti-semite? Thanks.

heres one example...you dont have to be a rocket scientist to guess the true leanings of someone who sees fit to post images like this



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 09:21:22 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Right Mike, why don't you post evidence of anywhere I have said anything anti Jewish. You can go through this thread or others. Living in Israel has certainly rubbed off on you, whereby any critism of Israel is "anti semitic."

Plus Mike, a semite refers to someone of middle east origin, so I don't think I could be accused of been anti semitic! Did they not teach you that in Israel?
Eh...the clear fact is John that if your dreams of Israel's destruction were to be realized tomorrow, what becomes of it's people?...hardly pro Jewish
now is it,  did they not teach you that in Rafah?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 12, 2011, 09:23:42 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2011, 09:33:41 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Answer the question, Mike. We can all do insults, you know. Have you anything constructive to say? 
 The Middle East is a mess because of Zionism. Even Netanyahu admitted as much this evening.
anyway don't worry. Zionism is going the same way as Communism. It is an ideology born in another time that is no longer fit for purpose.     
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 09:49:34 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Answer the question, Mike. We can all do insults, you know. Have you anything constructive to say? 
 The Middle East is a mess because of Zionism. Even Netanyahu admitted as much this evening.
anyway don't worry. Zionism is going the same way as Communism. It is an ideology born in another time that is no longer fit for purpose.   
He did John...see reply #184 above and the one under it too for good measure.
Simply another example that ye only see what ye want to see!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 09:55:16 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Answer the question, Mike. We can all do insults, you know. Have you anything constructive to say? 
 The Middle East is a mess because of Zionism. Even Netanyahu admitted as much this evening.
anyway don't worry. Zionism is going the same way as Communism. It is an ideology born in another time that is no longer fit for purpose.   
He did John...see reply #184 above and the one under it too for good measure.
Simply another example that ye only see what ye want to see!
Is seafoid called John? I didn't know that.
Could simply be another example that ye only see what ye want to see..............
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 09:59:15 PM
They're one and the same...you didn't know that?  8)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 12, 2011, 10:03:46 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Its a simple question even for a brainless Kerry muppet like you. You accuse Dixie of sectarianism - please point out an example or are you just full of shit?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 12, 2011, 10:04:39 PM
They're one and the same...you didn't know that?  8)

Was that on Fox news too or are you a member of mossad or something?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 10:09:03 PM
They're one and the same...you didn't know that?  8)

Was that on Fox news too or are you a member of mossad or something?
Keith Olberman told me as the door was hitting him on the ass on the way out  :D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 10:09:12 PM
They're one and the same...you didn't know that?  8)
No but then again, I don't know who these people are in real life.
I believe that the 'John' you speak of is a man with a beard from about Dungannon.
I believe that seafoid is a wee fear a' bhata from Conamara.

I mightn't be right but I only think what I want to think.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 10:22:50 PM
They're one and the same...you didn't know that?  8)
No but then again, I don't know who these people are in real life.
I believe that the 'John' you speak of is a man with a beard from about Dungannon.
I believe that seafoid is a wee fear a' bhata from Conamara.

I mightn't be right but I only think what I want to think.
Thanks for sharing...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 10:26:24 PM
So, why did you call seafoid 'John'?

Do his posts read like a 'John'?

Or do you just see what you want to see?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 12, 2011, 10:29:33 PM
So, why did you call seafoid 'John'?

Do his posts read like a 'John'?

Or do you just see what you want to see?

Do they not?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 10:30:54 PM
So, why did you call seafoid 'John'?

Do his posts read like a 'John'?

Or do you just see what you want to see?

Do they not?
No. They read like a wee fear a' bhata from Conamara.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 12, 2011, 10:41:37 PM

Is seafoid called John? I didn't know that.
Could simply be another example that ye only see what ye want to see..............
[/quote]

Hardstation

He was calling give her dixie an antisemite but GHD has heard it all and far worse.
Israel is in the darkness where violence is the only form of acceptable communication.   It has no future unless it changes direction.
Israel is a deeply disturbed society that never dealt with the Holocaust and is taking it out on the Palestinians.   And the Arabs don't accept this. Israel is a European problem that was dumped on the Arabs.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 12, 2011, 10:46:57 PM

Is seafoid called John? I didn't know that.
Could simply be another example that ye only see what ye want to see..............

Hardstation

He was calling give her dixie an antisemite but GHD has heard it all and far worse.
Israel is in the darkness where violence is the only form of acceptable communication.   It has no future unless it changes direction.
Israel is a deeply disturbed society that never dealt with the Holocaust and is taking it out on the Palestinians.   And the Arabs don't accept this. Israel is a European problem that was dumped on the Arabs.
[/quote]I don't speak Arabic but in my opinion you post from "He" until the final full stop is horseshit.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 10:50:30 PM
I know what he was doing. I just thought it was ironic that he used the sentence "you only see what you want to see" in a post while attributing a previous post to a completely different person.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 12, 2011, 10:56:16 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Ok then, could you please define the difference between an outright anti-semite and a whatever type of anti-semite you class him to be? Then could you provide evidence of looking, walking and quacking like this type of anti-semite? Thanks.

heres one example...you dont have to be a rocket scientist to guess the true leanings of someone who sees fit to post images like this




Please explain to me how that cartoon is anti-semetic. And you also ignored my other question....could you please explain the different classes of anti-semite that exist in your version of reality? Thanks.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 12, 2011, 10:58:04 PM
I know what he was doing. I just thought it was ironic that he used the sentence "you only see what you want to see" in a post while attributing a previous post to a completely different person.
Most of my post is fucked up cos he ballsed up his quote above. I was just saying his post was shit. You too drunk to notice?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: hardstation on February 12, 2011, 11:05:20 PM
I know what he was doing. I just thought it was ironic that he used the sentence "you only see what you want to see" in a post while attributing a previous post to a completely different person.
Most of my post is fucked up cos he ballsed up his quote above. I was just saying his post was shit. You too drunk to notice?
I wasn't replying to you, ya balloon. He addressed me in his "fcuked up" post.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 12, 2011, 11:19:48 PM
I know what he was doing. I just thought it was ironic that he used the sentence "you only see what you want to see" in a post while attributing a previous post to a completely different person.
Most of my post is fucked up cos he ballsed up his quote above. I was just saying his post was shit. You too drunk to notice?
I wasn't replying to you, ya balloon. He addressed me in his "fcuked up" post.
Too drunk to notice.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2011, 12:11:01 AM
So, that's the best you could come up with Mike? You must be living under a rock if you havn't heard the war drums been beaten for an attack on Iran! Israel is doing all in their power to get the US to back them in an attack. US politicians are falling over themselves in their support for an attack. At the CPAC conference going on, sure Newt Gringrich came out in his support for an immediate attack on Iran. Israel have been using the holocaust card in their reasons for an attack.

When you say that the middle east is none of our business, then should that logic be applied to the US who supply Israel with $3 billion plus every year? Is that funding not one of the root causes of problems in the region?

Just this week in Gaza, US supplied F16's launched 7 air strikes, injuring 10 people, destroying numerous buildings, and they had no problem dropping 2 shells on the 3rd largest medical supplies store, totally destroying the building and contents. Nice work eh? Considering that the US and Israel have a 4 year siege on Gaza, the supplies destroyed will be extremely difficult to replace. But then again, they had no problem destroying the UN buildings that housed the food supply for over 1 million people during Cast Lead.

Today, they shot the 200th person in the past year who had been collecting gravel. Due to the siege, no building materials are allowed in. So, the locals have taken to collecting rubble in the areas that were destroyed 2 years ago. Several have been killed, and the vast majority of the people are shot in their ankles. Sort of target practice.

Today, in Algeria, thousands took to the street in their quest for democratic change. Algeria took a leaf out of Mubaraks book and shut down facebook and the internet. It backfired on Mubarak, and it will no doubt backfire on Algeria. Sure hasn't Joe Biden even called for an internet "Kill Switch"? in the US.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 13, 2011, 03:37:27 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Its a simple question even for a brainless Kerry muppet like you. You accuse Dixie of sectarianism - please point out an example or are you just full of shit?

you got your example you stupid Cavan ****. Cartoons about the holocaust are about as offensive as you can get.

Yourself, Authurs friend,GHD and seafoid have had your own cosy little echo chamber of anti US and Israel bile going on here for far too long. You are hypocrites of the highest order. Preaching at us about US interference while  all the while licking the arse of this GHD character as he pursues his own political agenda and interfering in other countries affairs.

Its quite simple. The US, Russia, the UK have no business influencing middle east affairs but neither do "useful idiots" like you. Basically practice what you preach and butt out.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2011, 09:34:04 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Its a simple question even for a brainless Kerry muppet like you. You accuse Dixie of sectarianism - please point out an example or are you just full of shit?

you got your example you stupid Cavan ****. Cartoons about the holocaust are about as offensive as you can get.

Yourself, Authurs friend,GHD and seafoid have had your own cosy little echo chamber of anti US and Israel bile going on here for far too long. You are hypocrites of the highest order. Preaching at us about US interference while  all the while licking the arse of this GHD character as he pursues his own political agenda and interfering in other countries affairs.

Its quite simple. The US, Russia, the UK have no business influencing middle east affairs but neither do "useful idiots" like you. Basically practice what you preach and butt out.

So Mike, going by your logic, if people were to stay out of other countries affairs, then the Turks shouldn't have sent 5 boats full of aid to Ireland during the famine? The Choctaws shouldn't have sent us $710 in the same period? Plus, the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, or send weapons of mass destruction to Israel?

And when Israel destroys medical supplies in Gaza with US supplied weapons, people shouldn't get off their ass and bring them more, considering that the US supports an inhumane siege that doesn't allow said medical supplies to enter the besieged strip?

Is this your logic Mike? Is this the kind of human you really are?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 13, 2011, 10:48:30 AM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Its a simple question even for a brainless Kerry muppet like you. You accuse Dixie of sectarianism - please point out an example or are you just full of shit?

you got your example you stupid Cavan ****. Cartoons about the holocaust are about as offensive as you can get.

Yourself, Authurs friend,GHD and seafoid have had your own cosy little echo chamber of anti US and Israel bile going on here for far too long. You are hypocrites of the highest order. Preaching at us about US interference while  all the while licking the arse of this GHD character as he pursues his own political agenda and interfering in other countries affairs.

Its quite simple. The US, Russia, the UK have no business influencing middle east affairs but neither do "useful idiots" like you. Basically practice what you preach and butt out.

What an abusive post...you seem like a very angry man. Your argument is perhaps one of the most moronic I have read on this discussion board and that is quite an achievement.

The fact is that the UK, USA et al ARE interfering in Middle Eastern affairs and while they are I will have an opinion on it, thank you very much. Following your logic, expressing an opinion against the Iraq War would somehow be interfering in Middle Eastern affairs  ::)

As for GHD, I don't know him and I don't agree with everything he says, I merely ask people like yourself and Tyrones Own to back up some of the assertions that you make when you attack him, e.g. Anti-Semite, wants destruction of Israel, anti everything western etc etc.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 13, 2011, 12:27:48 PM
I'll give such a dimwitted response a by ball for now and assume the time of Mikeys posting gives a clue to the state he was in....i.e. full of the crater




I'd say he'll be editing that post when he rises from the pillow

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 13, 2011, 04:57:01 PM
Stew, take a look at the recent revelations exposed by Wikileaks that show Abbas and the PA offered practically everything to Israel, and they rejected them.

Israel want the land, end of story. It's the Zionist plan. Plus Stew, ctritism of Israel is not critism of Jews.
Don't confuse the 2 please.

You are not fooling anyone.

Why don't you believe what he is saying? What evidence do you have to the contrary?

Oh, don't get me wrong, I wouldnt class him as an outright anti-semite, however if looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....I would say its a duck.

Well I'm not sure what type of idiot to class you as. Could you point out one instance on this thread where anyone has said something anti semitic (ie anti Jewish as opposed to anti Israel) go on, just one? Its the usual Israeli defence you are adopting - anyone who says anything bad about Israel should be slurred as being sectarian.

and I know exactly what class of idiot you are. Stalin would have called you a "useful idiot". You and your ilk are just mouthpieces for one side or the other. The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides. The place is a mess because of people like you interfering.

Its a simple question even for a brainless Kerry muppet like you. You accuse Dixie of sectarianism - please point out an example or are you just full of shit?

you got your example you stupid Cavan ****. Cartoons about the holocaust are about as offensive as you can get.

Yourself, Authurs friend,GHD and seafoid have had your own cosy little echo chamber of anti US and Israel bile going on here for far too long. You are hypocrites of the highest order. Preaching at us about US interference while  all the while licking the arse of this GHD character as he pursues his own political agenda and interfering in other countries affairs.

Its quite simple. The US, Russia, the UK have no business influencing middle east affairs but neither do "useful idiots" like you. Basically practice what you preach and butt out.

What an abusive post...you seem like a very angry man. Your argument is perhaps one of the most moronic I have read on this discussion board and that is quite an achievement.

The fact is that the UK, USA et al ARE interfering in Middle Eastern affairs and while they are I will have an opinion on it, thank you very much. Following your logic, expressing an opinion against the Iraq War would somehow be interfering in Middle Eastern affairs  ::)

As for GHD, I don't know him and I don't agree with everything he says, I merely ask people like yourself and Tyrones Own to back up some of the assertions that you make when you attack him, e.g. Anti-Semite, wants destruction of Israel, anti everything western etc etc.

Who cares what abuse a drunken Gombeen comes up with at 3am in the morning when I'm long in bed. The point is he makes scurrilous claims about Dixie and others on here and hasn't one bit of evidence to back it up. Not the first time he's been caught talking shite on this board either. No peep out of him today yet, maybe he has put on his regulation Kerry peak cap and is gone out canvasing for Healy-Rae.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 13, 2011, 05:08:45 PM
GHD is the kind of useful idiot posturing and sticking his nose in others affairs. He absolutely no right tio get involved if his main intent is to politicize the situtation which by the flood of postings on here is exactly what he is at. He is nothing but a stooge for extremists.

you are a despicable bunch. crawling up each others arses with your self satisfied rantings against the US and Israel..and you are the chief arse crawler Mylestheslasher. A reprehensible Cavan fool of the highest order.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 13, 2011, 05:13:43 PM
GHD is the kind of useful idiot posturing and sticking his nose in others affairs. He absolutely no right tio get involved if his main intent is to politicize the situtation which by the flood of postings on here is exactly what he is at. He is nothing but a stooge for extremists.

you are a despicable bunch. crawling up each others arses with your self satisfied rantings against the US and Israel..and you are the chief arse crawler Mylestheslasher. A reprehensible Cavan fool of the highest order.

so thats a no then to chaning your previous posts??? :D

They do tend to crawl up each others arses dont they, like lemmings the lot of them.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2011, 05:21:07 PM
Mike, when you say "The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides", surely your logic should also apply to Turkey when they got involved in Irish business 160 years ago? Were they wrong to take sides?Have a read Mike of this story of generosity from Turkey to Ireland. I'm sure a lot of people at the time were glad Turkey took a side........


The Treaty of Lausanne, signed in 1923 between the allied powers and the Turks in the aftermath of World War I, still prevails on the Turkish agenda. While on the one hand, some celebrate this treaty, arguing that it marks Turkish independence from the invading powers, others are critical about it as so much was given away, like Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Mosul, etc.

Yahya Kemal Beyatl (1884-1958), a famous Turkish poet and a former ambassador, had an interesting memory from the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, in which he participated as a reporter. He recounts that while all the plenipotentiaries of the allied powers (The British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Serb- Croat-Slovene State) voted in unison in opposition to Turkey, the representative from Ireland was an exception; in each vote, he raised his hand in favor of Turkey’s interests.

Beyatl noticed this unusual person, and could not help asking him the reason. “I am obliged to do it. Not only I, but are all Irish men and women,” said the Irish representative. “When we suffered from famine and disease, your Ottoman ancestors shipped loads of food and monetary donations. We have never forgotten the friendly hand extended to us in our difficult times. Your nation deserves to be supported on every occasion.”

Ireland was ridden with famine and disease between 1845 and 1849. Also known as the Great Hunger, this famine had lasting effects: at least one million people died due to famine-related diseases and more than one million Irish fled, mainly to the United States, England, Canada, and Australia.

Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid sent five ships full of food supplies and funds as charity. However, the British administration did not give permission for these ships to enter the ports of Belfast or Dublin. Taner Baytok, former Turkish ambassador to Ireland, recounts in his memoirs that these ships secretly discharged their load in Drogheda, a town approximately 70 miles north of Dublin.

On May 2, 1995, commemorating this charity, the mayor of Drogheda, Alderman Frank Goddfrey, paid honor to Baytok and erected a plaque in the Westcourt Hotel, which was then the City Hall where Turkish seamen stayed. Baytok says he first learned of this act of charity from an article by Thomas P. O’Neill published in The Threshold magazine in 1957. To this day, the Drogheda United football club remembers this generous act by displaying the star and cresent moon on their jerseys.

The Otoman sultan declared that he would donate £10,000, but on the orders of Queen Victoria, the British Ambassador in Istanbul informed the Sultan that he should reduce this amount, for the Queen’s donation was only £2,000. As noted in the letter of gratitude from the “noblemen, gentlemen, and inhabitants of Ireland,” the amount donated by Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid was reduced by the Queen to one thousand pounds.

Ottoman efforts to provide food and lessen the pains of the Irish people, despite political obstacles and the long distance, certainly deserves to be appreciated. It is a case study that should be analyzed carefully, not only as historical evidence for the friendship between two nations, but also as a perfect example that differences of race, religion, or language should not prevent humanitarian aid.

This generous charity from a Muslim sultan to a Christian nation is also important, particularly in our time when Muslims are often unfairly accused of human rights violations. Likewise, the appreciative plaque and overall reaction of the Irish society in return for this charity deserves to be applauded. We hope that the Turkish-Irish friendship sets a model for peace among different nations.

On a recent trip to Turkey, President of Ireland, Mary McAleese expressed gratitude to the Turkish people for the humanitarian aid provided by the Islamic Khilafah to Ireland during the Great Famine, 160 years ago.

The Turkish newspaper, “Ikinci Vatan”, reported that President McAleese on her official visit to Turkey made the statement during her meeting with Turkish president Abdullah Gul and expressed the words of gratitude from the people of Ireland for humanitarian aid provided by Ottoman Caliphate.

 

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 13, 2011, 05:26:02 PM
absolutely no change. These fools like to try and intimidate those who dont subscribe to their skewed, biased views.

They seem to forget that etremists on both sides feed off the interference of foreigners, both the Israelis as well Palestinian extremists . They (GDH, Mylestheslasher etc) see themselves as being on the "right" side so its somehow ok for them to interfere. Well the the problem with extremists is that, you know, they kill people who don't agree with them and I see a direct link between the propaganda that fuels a hatred  of one side or another  that the likes of GDH spew on here and what is going on in the middle east. That is what makes me so angry about this. Its the hypocisy of critizing the US for interfering and then butting in youself (and, as I said, I fully agree that the US should not interfere...or the Russians, or the British)

Bottom line is practice what you preach. Stop interfering in Middle eastern affairs and stirring up hatred of one side or the other.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 13, 2011, 05:36:14 PM
Mike, when you say "The middle east is none of your businees so stop taking sides", surely your logic should also apply to Turkey when they got involved in Irish business 160 years ago? Were they wrong to take sides?Have a read Mike of this story of generosity from Turkey to Ireland. I'm sure a lot of people at the time were glad Turkey took a side........


The Treaty of Lausanne, signed in 1923 between the allied powers and the Turks in the aftermath of World War I, still prevails on the Turkish agenda. While on the one hand, some celebrate this treaty, arguing that it marks Turkish independence from the invading powers, others are critical about it as so much was given away, like Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Mosul, etc.

Yahya Kemal Beyatl (1884-1958), a famous Turkish poet and a former ambassador, had an interesting memory from the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, in which he participated as a reporter. He recounts that while all the plenipotentiaries of the allied powers (The British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the Serb- Croat-Slovene State) voted in unison in opposition to Turkey, the representative from Ireland was an exception; in each vote, he raised his hand in favor of Turkey’s interests.

Beyatl noticed this unusual person, and could not help asking him the reason. “I am obliged to do it. Not only I, but are all Irish men and women,” said the Irish representative. “When we suffered from famine and disease, your Ottoman ancestors shipped loads of food and monetary donations. We have never forgotten the friendly hand extended to us in our difficult times. Your nation deserves to be supported on every occasion.”

Ireland was ridden with famine and disease between 1845 and 1849. Also known as the Great Hunger, this famine had lasting effects: at least one million people died due to famine-related diseases and more than one million Irish fled, mainly to the United States, England, Canada, and Australia.

Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid sent five ships full of food supplies and funds as charity. However, the British administration did not give permission for these ships to enter the ports of Belfast or Dublin. Taner Baytok, former Turkish ambassador to Ireland, recounts in his memoirs that these ships secretly discharged their load in Drogheda, a town approximately 70 miles north of Dublin.

On May 2, 1995, commemorating this charity, the mayor of Drogheda, Alderman Frank Goddfrey, paid honor to Baytok and erected a plaque in the Westcourt Hotel, which was then the City Hall where Turkish seamen stayed. Baytok says he first learned of this act of charity from an article by Thomas P. O’Neill published in The Threshold magazine in 1957. To this day, the Drogheda United football club remembers this generous act by displaying the star and cresent moon on their jerseys.

The Otoman sultan declared that he would donate £10,000, but on the orders of Queen Victoria, the British Ambassador in Istanbul informed the Sultan that he should reduce this amount, for the Queen’s donation was only £2,000. As noted in the letter of gratitude from the “noblemen, gentlemen, and inhabitants of Ireland,” the amount donated by Ottoman Sultan Abdülmecid was reduced by the Queen to one thousand pounds.

Ottoman efforts to provide food and lessen the pains of the Irish people, despite political obstacles and the long distance, certainly deserves to be appreciated. It is a case study that should be analyzed carefully, not only as historical evidence for the friendship between two nations, but also as a perfect example that differences of race, religion, or language should not prevent humanitarian aid.

This generous charity from a Muslim sultan to a Christian nation is also important, particularly in our time when Muslims are often unfairly accused of human rights violations. Likewise, the appreciative plaque and overall reaction of the Irish society in return for this charity deserves to be applauded. We hope that the Turkish-Irish friendship sets a model for peace among different nations.

On a recent trip to Turkey, President of Ireland, Mary McAleese expressed gratitude to the Turkish people for the humanitarian aid provided by the Islamic Khilafah to Ireland during the Great Famine, 160 years ago.

The Turkish newspaper, “Ikinci Vatan”, reported that President McAleese on her official visit to Turkey made the statement during her meeting with Turkish president Abdullah Gul and expressed the words of gratitude from the people of Ireland for humanitarian aid provided by Ottoman Caliphate.

Nothing wrong with humanitarian aid as long as it doesn't some with a political agenda. Also, I am surprised you are citing the the ottoman turks  as a paragon of virtue given the Ottoman empires role as occupier of the middle east.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 13, 2011, 06:17:35 PM
GHD is the kind of useful idiot posturing and sticking his nose in others affairs. He absolutely no right tio get involved if his main intent is to politicize the situtation which by the flood of postings on here is exactly what he is at. He is nothing but a stooge for extremists.

you are a despicable bunch. crawling up each others arses with your self satisfied rantings against the US and Israel..and you are the chief arse crawler Mylestheslasher. A reprehensible Cavan fool of the highest order.

The only person ranting in here seems to be your good self.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 13, 2011, 06:25:49 PM
GHD is the kind of useful idiot posturing and sticking his nose in others affairs. He absolutely no right tio get involved if his main intent is to politicize the situtation which by the flood of postings on here is exactly what he is at. He is nothing but a stooge for extremists.

you are a despicable bunch. crawling up each others arses with your self satisfied rantings against the US and Israel..and you are the chief arse crawler Mylestheslasher. A reprehensible Cavan fool of the highest order.

so thats a no then to chaning your previous posts??? :D

They do tend to crawl up each others arses dont they, like lemmings the lot of them.

You see the irony in your post?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2011, 06:39:07 PM
Mike, should Navi keep her nose out of middle east affairs as well?

Following Visit, UNHCHR Criticises Israel for International Law Violations

Sunday, 13 February 2011

The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi Pillay, who just completed a six-day visit to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territory, strongly criticized Israel for its treatment of Palestinians and violations of international law.

“All state actions in support of the establishment and maintenance of the settlements, including incentives to create them and the establishment of infrastructure to support them, are illegal under international law,” Pillay said at a press conference on Jerusalem Friday (11/2) marking the end of her visit.

"I have been struck by the complacency with which the entirely-avoidable predicament of Palestinians affected by the wall and settlements is treated by Israeli authorities with whom I have discussed these issues," Pillay said.

"They tend to be brushed aside as if they are minor matters. They are not. They are clear-cut violations of human rights on a very large scale," she said.

During her visit Pillay called for a halt on all settlement-related activities in East Jerusalem, as well as home evictions, demolitions, displacements and the cancellation of residency permits on a discriminatory basis.

On Monday, 7 February, the Jerusalem Municipal Planning and Construction Committee approved a plan for 13 new housing units for Jewish settlers in the East Jerusalem neighborhood Sheikh Jarrah.

The settler housing units will be built in two buildings, and will require the demolition of several Palestinian residences, leaving even more Sheikh Jarrah families homeless.

“East Jerusalem is being steadily drained of its Palestinian inhabitants, in clear-cut defiance of Security Council resolutions,” Pillay remarked during her visit.

"It's only when you hear the testimonies that you begin to understand the true horror of the policies which are stifling their social, cultural and economic prospects and crippling their morale," she said.

French Foreign Ministry spokesman Bernard Valero also spoke out against building plans in East Jerusalem.

“The plans violate international law," Valero said after the announcement of the new Sheikh Jarrah complex. "The settlements must end, in the West Bank as well as east Jerusalem."

A U.S. State Department official also denounced Israel's continued construction in East Jerusalem, saying Israeli actions "in Sheikh Jarrah and previously in Beit Orot, work against efforts to resume direct negotiations and contradict the logic of a reasonable and necessary agreement between the parties on the status of Jerusalem.”

In closing her visit, Pillay said, "The politics of conflict, peace and security are constantly leading to the downgrading, or setting aside, of the importance of binding international human rights and humanitarian law," which she described as "not negotiable."

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 13, 2011, 06:49:48 PM
Are you going to provide evidence mike to back up what you say or just hide like the yellow coward you are.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Gaaboardmod3 on February 13, 2011, 06:53:37 PM
Lads. Obviously an emotive topic, but if ye cannot be civil to each other and debate like adults, then I'll ban the lot of ye, and shut down the thread. It would be giving it too much credit to call some of the name calling in here childish.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 13, 2011, 07:22:41 PM
absolutely no change. These fools like to try and intimidate those who dont subscribe to their skewed, biased views.

They seem to forget that etremists on both sides feed off the interference of foreigners, both the Israelis as well Palestinian extremists . They (GDH, Mylestheslasher etc) see themselves as being on the "right" side so its somehow ok for them to interfere. Well the the problem with extremists is that, you know, they kill people who don't agree with them and I see a direct link between the propaganda that fuels a hatred  of one side or another  that the likes of GDH spew on here and what is going on in the middle east. That is what makes me so angry about this. Its the hypocisy of critizing the US for interfering and then butting in youself (and, as I said, I fully agree that the US should not interfere...or the Russians, or the British)

Bottom line is practice what you preach. Stop interfering in Middle eastern affairs and stirring up hatred of one side or the other.
Absolutely spot on...yet they sill continue to believe they are fooling people here with the relentless propagandized and biased hatred  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on February 13, 2011, 07:28:53 PM
absolutely no change. These fools like to try and intimidate those who dont subscribe to their skewed, biased views.

They seem to forget that etremists on both sides feed off the interference of foreigners, both the Israelis as well Palestinian extremists . They (GDH, Mylestheslasher etc) see themselves as being on the "right" side so its somehow ok for them to interfere. Well the the problem with extremists is that, you know, they kill people who don't agree with them and I see a direct link between the propaganda that fuels a hatred  of one side or another  that the likes of GDH spew on here and what is going on in the middle east. That is what makes me so angry about this. Its the hypocisy of critizing the US for interfering and then butting in youself (and, as I said, I fully agree that the US should not interfere...or the Russians, or the British)

Bottom line is practice what you preach. Stop interfering in Middle eastern affairs and stirring up hatred of one side or the other.
Absolutely spot on...yet they sill continue to believe they are fooling people here with the relentless propagandized and biased hatred  ::)

You agree with this then?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 13, 2011, 07:34:15 PM
Yes and have stated so!
Strange for you to pick that out of what was otherwise a very accurate, descriptive post  :-\ ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 13, 2011, 08:03:12 PM
You know it is a waste of time trying to debate on here. People with obviously no knowledge or experience of what they are talking about are permitted to come on here and call people Anti semitics (ie sectarian), accuse different posters of being the same person and make any wild accusation without providing any evidence. People like Mike Sheehy who spends half his time on the board trying to wind up people from the North on every thread he posts on. Tyrones Own writes rubbish and more rubbish but try and pull him up on anything he refuses to respond (A trait Sheehy is now following) I'm suprised with Stews position on this, always had time for him on here but I think his negative comments on here following the same line as the other 2 is a real slight on him.

So I'm going to sign of this thread by saying I am glad that people in the world in different countries at different times came to the aid of a small Island on the edge of Europe in the name of liberty and to help that island fight against oppression and I am glad they did.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Baile an tuaigh on February 13, 2011, 08:30:38 PM
No matter who your for there can be no denying the huge solidarity most Irish people have with the Palestinians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50nTeC4QnZ4
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 13, 2011, 08:32:27 PM
You know it is a waste of time trying to debate on here. People with obviously no knowledge or experience of what they are talking about are permitted to come on here and call people Anti semitics (ie sectarian), accuse different posters of being the same person and make any wild accusation without providing any evidence. People like Mike Sheehy who spends half his time on the board trying to wind up people from the North on every thread he posts on. Tyrones Own writes rubbish and more rubbish but try and pull him up on anything he refuses to respond (A trait Sheehy is now following) I'm suprised with Stews position on this, always had time for him on here but I think his negative comments on here following the same line as the other 2 is a real slight on him.

So I'm going to sign of this thread by saying I am glad that people in the world in different countries at different times came to the aid of a small Island on the edge of Europe in the name of liberty and to help that island fight against oppression and I am glad they did.

Good riddance. Dont let the door hit you on the way out you self-righteous, biased, anti-US, anti-Israel hate monger.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 13, 2011, 08:37:31 PM
Lads. Obviously an emotive topic, but if ye cannot be civil to each other and debate like adults, then I'll ban the lot of ye, and shut down the thread. It would be giving it too much credit to call some of the name calling in here childish.

Since I started this thread, and have been labelled with some unwarranted and unsavoury titles and names, I am going to lock this thread, and Log Out. This isn't a discussion board any longer. It has turned into an insult board.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 17, 2011, 02:05:05 PM
Folks, I have had a number of requests to re open this thread. If we can keep to the point, and be civil to each other, then I see no reason why it can't stay open.

Things are rapidly changing in the region at the moment with protests in Yemen, Iran, Lybia, and Jordan.
Last night the military moved in with a heavy hand in Bahrain, and 4 people are reported dead.

Lybia has seen a rise in protests, and as in Bahrain, the authorities have cracked down hard.

In Iran, protests are also taking place, and it's ironic that this is the only protest that the US have come out in support. They support protest against a country they have no relations with, and say nothing when their dictator puppets crack down......

In Gaza, nothing changes. Last night, 3 fishermen were murdered by the Israeli Occupation Forces as they worked on the beach. The border has now been closed at Rafah for over 2 weeks as the military in Egypt decide what to do. There is a real fear now gripping Gaza that Israel will invade the Siani and control the border. Anything is possible.......

The winds of change are certainly blowing across the middle east, and it's anyones guess what will happen next.....
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 17, 2011, 02:25:06 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/18/world/middleeast/18bahrain.html?_r=2&hp

MANAMA, Bahrain — Without warning, hundreds of heavily armed riot police officers rushed into Pearl Square here early Thursday, firing shotguns, tear gas and concussion grenades at the thousands of demonstrators who were sleeping there as part of a widening protest against the nation’s absolute monarchy

At least five people died, some of them reportedly killed in their sleep with scores of shotgun pellets to the face and chest, according to a witness and three doctors who received the dead and at least 200 wounded at a hospital here. The witness and the physicians spoke in return for anonymity for fear of official reprisals.

The military said later it had taken control of most of the capital and banned protests, The Associated Press reported. The announcement on state television said the military had “key parts” of Manama “under control,” hours after the killings.

Television broadcasts showed tanks rolling through the capital.

The violence came against the backdrop of turmoil swirling from the Persian Gulf to the Mediterranean coastline as young and disaffected Arabs took to the streets, inspired by uprisings that toppled the leaders of Tunisia and Egypt and redrew the region’s political map.

This week alone, renewed skirmishes were reported from Iran, Libya and Yemen.

In some countries, protest has been aimed at governments long supported by the United States — like the monarchy in Bahrain, which hosts the United States Navy’s Fifth Fleet — valuing alliances with them in the struggle to combat terrorism and build a regional security network. But the association between their rulers and the White House has presented Washington with an acute dilemma over its response to the emerging threats to its longtime allies.

In Bahrain, the violence is more complex because the island monarchy is ruled by a Sunni minority, provoking longstanding discontent among a Shiite majority linked by its faith to Iran with its Shiite theocracy across the waters of the Gulf.

The abrupt crackdown on what had been a carnival-like protest injected a new anger into demonstrations calling on King Hamad bin Isa al-Khalifa to enact reforms. “Death to Khalifa, death to Khalifa,” hundreds of protesters chanted on Thursday outside a hospital as women ran screaming through wards and corridors seeking lost children.

“They made the people feel safe,” said a nurse, Fatima Ali, referring to what had initially seemed to be official tolerance of the huge protest in Pearl Square, emulating an uprising in Cairo’s Tahrir Square that brought down President Hosni Mubarak. “Then they killed them.”

Men, women and young children ran screaming, choking and collapsing as riot police ringed the square.

The square was filled with the crack of tear gas canisters and the wail of ambulances rushing people to the hospital. Teams of plainclothes police officers carrying shotguns swarmed through the area.

In the hospital morgue, one body lay next to a tray with 200 shotgun pellets that had been dug from it. Doctors said paramedics who rushed to the square in ambulances after the convulsion of violence were beaten by police. Some of the people admitted to the hospital with injuries had been handcuffed with thick plastic restraints, made to lie down, then beaten, the doctors said. A witness, who spoke in return for anonymity, said he had seen two people shot dead as they slept.

Other injuries were caused by rubber bullets, batons and beatings.

“There was a fog of war,” said Mohammed Ibrahim as he took refuge in a nearby gas station. He was barefoot, had lost his wallet and had marks on his leg where he said he had been beaten. “There were children, forgive them.”

On Thursday, television images showed a long convoy of armored military vehicles rolling into position in Manama. News reports quoted a military spokesman as saying the deployment was to defend people and property.

The Interior Ministry said the army would take all necessary steps to ensure security and it urged people to avoid the center of Manama.

In Pearl Square, riot police officers backed by scores of SUVs with flashing blue lights could be seen on Thursday picking their way through the deserted remnants and debris of the protesters’ tent camp.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: ludermor on February 17, 2011, 04:11:10 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12476771

Lara Logan of CBS attacked by Egyptian mob in Cairo
Senior CBS correspondent Lara Logan is recovering in hospital in the US after she was beaten and sexually assaulted by a mob while covering the Egyptian protests, the US network says.

It says the attack occurred on Friday in Cairo's packed Tahrir Square after President Hosni Mubarak stepped down.

Ms Logan became separated from her crew and was rescued by women and soldiers.

The Committee to Protect Journalists has said 52 journalists were assaulted and 76 detained during events in Egypt.

The New York-based group said all of them had since been released.

'Courageous reporter'

In a statement, CBS said that Ms Logan and her team became "surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration" with a mob of more than 200 people "whipped into a frenzy".

It said Ms Logan was recovering following what it described as "a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating".

A group of women and an estimated 20 soldiers managed to save her after she became separated from her colleagues and security, it added.

The 39-year-old South African returned to the US on Saturday.

Ms Logan is CBS News' chief foreign affairs correspondent and has reported from Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ) said the attack was "alarming", describing Ms Logan as a "brilliant, courageous, and committed reporter".

In its annual report issued on Tuesday, the CPJ said Pakistan was the deadliest country for journalists in 2010, with 8 killed while doing their job, out of 44 worldwide.

The number of jailed reporters was 145, an increase from previous years.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Trout on February 17, 2011, 04:18:15 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 06:01:57 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Can you imagine the outrage had she been a Muslim reporter raped and beaten by Americans while chanting racial slurs  :o...Strangely quiet here though amongst the humanitarians  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 17, 2011, 06:24:29 PM
Its a disgusting sickening attack and those involved are indeed savages. I'm pretty sure most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened. Unless you boys know any different?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 17, 2011, 06:36:32 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

Trout, what happened to her was horrific, and i'm sure the vast majority of Egyptians are equally horrified.
Sure havn't we "savages" here in Ireland as well considering rape and sexual assults also occurs.
It's not just happening in Egypt.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 06:48:50 PM
Quote
I'm pretty sure most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened.
Could you provide any evidence to back that up Arthur  ;)
You see, we'd never know it here when the only mention of it here from you two
Is when pressed on it...just more of what ye lads are really about...that's all!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 17, 2011, 07:10:27 PM
Why Israel must seize the moment
Natalie Portman's award winning performance in Black Swan has renewed interest in the ballet Swan Lake. The ballet itself has the hopeless feel of a Greek tragedy where nothing can be done to prevent the inevitable heartbreaking outcome.

Too often the Arab-Israeli conflict has the same feel. With events in the Middle East unfolding in a dramatic fashion, along with its unknown consequences for the Arab-Israeli conflict, I went to see the State Ballet Theatre of Russia perform Swan Lake. As I sat down in my seat and read the synopsis of the ballet I could not help but feel a sense of doom as I thought of events taking place in the Middle East and perhaps another opportunity for peace between Israel and her neighbors that might tragically be lost.

The harsh reality is that the three major movements toward peace in the Middle East all emerged only after the stasis of the geo-political status quo was violently shaken. The first was the Egyptian-Israeli Peace Treaty of 1979, the second was the Oslo Accords of 1993, and the third was the Jordanian-Israel Peace Treaty a year later in 1994. In 1973 Sadat felt forced to launch the October War after his overtures to peace with Israel were rejected. He knew that the only way to get Israel to the negotiating table was to cross the Suez Canal and regain a small amount of territory Egypt lost in the Six-Day War of 1967. As Sadat said, "The time has come for a shock." The war led to a re-engagement by the United States in the region with Kissinger's shuttle diplomacy culminating in two disengagement accords between Israel and Egypt in 1974 and 1975, followed by Sadat's historic visit to Israel in 1977, and the signing of the peace treaty in 1978.

The convening of the Madrid Peace Conference at the end of 1991 only took place as a result of the regional realties that were shattered by the First Gulf War earlier that year. The Conference led to the secret negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians in Oslo and the signing of the Oslo Accords two years later in 1993, and the signing of the Jordanian-Israeli Peace Treaty of 1994.

With all the efforts of the Obama administration these past two years the negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinians have gone nowhere. Some in the administration seem resigned to the notion that nothing will happen if history is any indication until there is a major shakeup in the region. The dramatic fall of Mubarak in Egypt and of Ben Ali in Tunisia, along with spreading unrest in Yemen, Jordan, Iran, and Bahrain may be that very shakeup.

Israel has reacted to the events taking place around her with a very understandable fear of what it all could mean. The ground is shifting in the Middle East, however unlike a natural earthquake where there is nothing humans can do to stop those tectonic shifts within the earth, this is a human made earthquake where we are the players and instigators. As former White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel insightfully said, "Never let a serious crisis go to waste." Crisis creates crisis, it also creates opportunity. Israel can sit passively by and let the events within her neighbor's borders define and dictate the reality that she will face, or she can seize the moment and be part of the change, and by so doing create a better reality for herself, and the region.

New governments will begin to emerge in the Middle East in response to the mobilization of the Arab street. Another cause close to the hearts of the Arab street is that of the Palestinians. The new governments that emerge will be very aware of that strong sentiment; over that issue, as well as others, they will need to show that they have street credibility. With whatever government emerges in Egypt we can be assured that without an agreement between Israel and the Palestinians the peace between Israel and Egypt will go from cold to frozen, and in Jordan the anti-normalization movement against Israel will only become stronger. It is for that very reason that Israel needs to seize the moment and actively engage the Palestinians in working toward an agreement. The recently released documents of the Palestinian negotiators showed both flexibility, creativity, and a grip on reality by the Palestinian and Israeli negotiators. It also confirmed that there is not much left to negotiate within the rubric of the Taba Summit, the Clinton Parameters, the Arab Peace Initiative, the Road Map and the Geneva Accords.

As new governments come into being in the Middle East throughout this year it would be in Israel's best interest to have an agreement with the Palestinians completed as those new governments decide what their relationship with the Jewish state will look like. Netanyahu must recognize that Abbas is not reluctant to enter into serious negotiations with Israel. He showed that with Olmert. Rather, Abbas will not enter into negotiations with Netanyahu unless Netanyahu gives him some clear indication that negotiations will pick up close to where they left off with Olmert.

As Act 4 of Swan Lake started I waited for its sad ending. But then something remarkable and unexpected happened, the choreographer changed the ending from tragedy to triumph having Siegfried and Odette defeat the evil sorcerer and be united in their love. It is clearly easier to rewrite the ending of a ballet than it is to write a peace treaty between Israelis and Palestinians; it is however just as easy to squander an opportunity. The next time the earth moves in the Middle East it will be much more violent. It would be another tragedy if that moment becomes the moment, and not the present moment, that we need to move the Israeli-Palestinian negotiations forward.

— Rabbi Michael M. Cohen works for the Middle East organization, the Arava Institute for Environmental Studies and is the author of "Einstein's Rabbi: A Tale of Science and the Soul."  Contact him at: rabbimichael@friendsofarava.org
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 17, 2011, 07:14:46 PM
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/165680.html

Around 365 people have been killed and about 5,500 wounded in the Egyptian revolution that led to the overthrow of Hosni Mubarak, Egypt's health minister says.


“The total number of deaths in the events witnessed by Egypt is around 365 ... and 5,500 were treated for injuries,” Health Minister Sameh Farid said in statement on Wednesday.

The ministry awaits reports from several hospitals and health offices to decide on the exact number of those killed and injured, the statement added.

The protests saw fierce clashes between demonstrators and security forces. Hundreds are still missing after the protests, rights groups say.

The news comes as more than 24,000 Egyptian workers continue their nationwide walkouts, defying an order by the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces to end the strikes six days after Mubarak's ouster.

Since the initial victory of the popular Egyptian revolution last week, protesters have been demanding that the military hand over power to a civilian government.

Activists have demanded the release of political prisoners, the lifting of a 30-year-old state of emergency and the disbanding of the military court in Egypt.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 17, 2011, 07:39:49 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Can you imagine the outrage had she been a Muslim reporter raped and beaten by Americans while chanting racial slurs  :o...Strangely quiet here though amongst the humanitarians  ::)

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

These photos can't be real....surely ::)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 17, 2011, 08:04:56 PM
Quote
I'm pretty sure most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened.
Could you provide any evidence to back that up Arthur  ;)
You see, we'd never know it here when the only mention of it here from you two
Is when pressed on it...just more of what ye lads are really about...that's all!

Who was pressed on it? This thread was locked until 2pm today ffs.

No, I don't have any evidence that most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened. It is my opinion. Are you aware of anything that I should know about 85 million Egyptian people which might make me change my mind?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 17, 2011, 08:38:39 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Can you imagine the outrage had she been a Muslim reporter raped and beaten by Americans while chanting racial slurs  :o...Strangely quiet here though amongst the humanitarians  ::)

In no way downplaying the ordeal she went through but I thought it right that I should point out that she was not raped. 

The same girl said this

Quote
As poor Lara Logan discovered, hyped up men in groups will egg each other on to do things most would rarely do on their own.

I’ve been thumped, mugged and aggressively groped in war zones. But all this could just as easily have happened at home in west London.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1357751/Lara-Logan-ordeal-Female-war-correspondent-exposes-life-line.html#ixzz1EFaaXhfg

Does anyone remember Robert Hamill or David Howes and Derek Wood for that matter? We haven't exactly got a brilliant record in this country at controlling mobs do we?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 08:46:00 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Can you imagine the outrage had she been a Muslim reporter raped and beaten by Americans while chanting racial slurs  :o...Strangely quiet here though amongst the humanitarians  ::)

http://www.aztlan.net/iraqi_women_raped.htm

These photos can't be real....surely ::)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html
Case in point...these dispicable incidents were highlighted to no end
By the media and certain posters on this board!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 17, 2011, 08:47:46 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

You should have left this thread locked Dixie, what's the point trying to debate or inform people like Trout?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 09:00:57 PM
Quote
I'm pretty sure most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened.
Could you provide any evidence to back that up Arthur  ;)
You see, we'd never know it here when the only mention of it here from you two
Is when pressed on it...just more of what ye lads are really about...that's all!

Who was pressed on it? This thread was locked until 2pm today ffs.

No, I don't have any evidence that most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened. It is my opinion. Are you aware of anything that I should know about 85 million Egyptian people which might make me change my mind?
Its funny anytime I give an opinion you consistently look for evidence to back
It up...silly me for thinking it would be similar rules for both sides here :-\
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 09:14:55 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

You should have left this thread locked Dixie, what's the point trying to debate or inform people like Trout?
That's right cause you are so much smarter than him aren't you myles...so many lessons about life you could teach him with your worldly intellect ::)

I agree by the way...why don't ye take this elitist hate fest back to facebook or IM
Where ye can knock yourselves out uninterrupted
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 17, 2011, 09:17:36 PM
Quote
I'm pretty sure most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened.
Could you provide any evidence to back that up Arthur  ;)
You see, we'd never know it here when the only mention of it here from you two
Is when pressed on it...just more of what ye lads are really about...that's all!

Who was pressed on it? This thread was locked until 2pm today ffs.

No, I don't have any evidence that most Egyptians would be disgusted that this happened. It is my opinion. Are you aware of anything that I should know about 85 million Egyptian people which might make me change my mind?
Its funny anytime I give an opinion you consistently look for evidence to back
It up...silly me for thinking it would be similar rules for both sides here :-\

Nowhere in my previous post have I said that you shouldn't ask me for evidence. You asked me for evidence, I told you I don't have any evidence and that it was my opinion. My opinion is based on the fact that I don't consider Egyptians to be any better or any worse than any other people.

Do you disagree with my opinion on this matter and if so why? I don't need evidence your opinion will do ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 17, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.
Can you imagine the outrage had she been a Muslim reporter raped and beaten by Americans while chanting racial slurs  :o...Strangely quiet here though amongst the humanitarians  ::)

In no way downplaying the ordeal she went through but I thought it right that I should point out that she was not raped. 

The same girl said this

Quote
As poor Lara Logan discovered, hyped up men in groups will egg each other on to do things most would rarely do on their own.

I’ve been thumped, mugged and aggressively groped in war zones. But all this could just as easily have happened at home in west London.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1357751/Lara-Logan-ordeal-Female-war-correspondent-exposes-life-line.html#ixzz1EFaaXhfg

Does anyone remember Robert Hamill or David Howes and Derek Wood for that matter? We haven't exactly got a brilliant record in this country at controlling mobs do we?

That report was written by a different reporter about her personal experiences
In war zones, not those of Lara Logan.
It's being reported as rape here!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 17, 2011, 09:59:03 PM
My mistake...apologies

For the record, can someone clarify if she was raped?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 17, 2011, 10:29:57 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

You should have left this thread locked Dixie, what's the point trying to debate or inform people like Trout?
Aye lock it. TO is no better or worse than the rest of you. He has an opinion you don't agree with and can't stand the fact that you can't brownbest him with your liberal opinions. Not one of you f**kers is going to change the middle east so get over yourselves.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 17, 2011, 11:21:25 PM
Why lock a thread just because people have differing opinions? Isn't that the point of a discussion board?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 18, 2011, 01:08:33 AM
There is no discussion invovled. Repeating the same circular arguments ad nauseum is futile.


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 18, 2011, 01:43:49 AM
There is no discussion invovled. Repeating the same circular arguments ad nauseum is futile.



Ah but seeing Dixey in competition with Paddy Bradley in the coming out of retirement stakes
makes it almost worth while   ;D
He'd be simply lost without the attention so I'm guessing we'll have to continue to put up with it here  :-\
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 18, 2011, 08:26:30 AM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

You should have left this thread locked Dixie, what's the point trying to debate or inform people like Trout?
Aye lock it. TO is no better or worse than the rest of you. He has an opinion you don't agree with and can't stand the fact that you can't brownbest him with your liberal opinions. Not one of you f**kers is going to change the middle east so get over yourselves.

You are entitled to that opinion but for it me it is totally defeatist. There is a thread on here somewhere charting Dixie first trip to Gaza. I met him then and gave him a small amount of clothing to bring. He had a van full to the rafters with stuff donated by the people on the streets of Dungannon and further afield. That thread showed pictures of kids with GAA jerseys playing ball in Gaza, medical supplies being delivered. If you don't believe that makes a difference then fair enough. Also, hearing the real life experiences of people in that region or reading articles posted here by informed journalists is also making a difference imo.

TO - I'm sure you will be sorry to hear this and will probably follow up with another attempt to insult me but I won't be replying directly to you anymore. I am all for debate but you are just firing up stuff on here that is nonsense with nothing to back it up. Trout is a troll looking for the rise so likewise to him. Now, go and do your best to insult me...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: tommysmith on February 18, 2011, 09:12:02 AM
Get off your high horse myles.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on February 18, 2011, 09:55:53 AM
HOLD ON LADS! I PM'D DIXIE TO ASK HIM TO RE-OPEN THIS THREAD.

FIRSTLY. THIS IS A FORUM FOR DISCUSSION! NOT PERSONAL ABUSE!

SECONDLY. IT IS CLEAR THAT THERE IS SIZEMIC CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE REGION WE NEED TO 'DISCUSS' WHAT WE SEE AND WEIGH UP HOW IT WILL AFFECT US.

THIRDLY. DIXIES OPINIONS ARE OF EQUAL VALUE TO EVERYONE ELSES. MOST OF US ARE FIXATED ON THE IRISH ELECTION SO ITS GOOD THAT SOMEONE IS KEEPING US INFORMED ON IMPORTANT WORLD AFFAIRS

FINALLY. WE ENJOY THE BANTER/CRAIC ON THIS BOARD, ITS CHALLANGING AND AT THE SAME TIME ITS GOOD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR SAY AND SEE WHAT OTHERS THINK. BUT WHERE ARE WE GOING WHEN A BOARD MEMBER HAS TO LOCK A THREAD BECAUSE HES SICKENED BY THE WAY HIS SUBJECT HAS DETERIATED INTO A SLAGGING MATCH.

PLEASE STOP! ITS THIS TYPE OF ABUSE THAT DRIVES GOOD LADS OFF THE BOARD
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 18, 2011, 10:07:48 AM
Agree, it would be very dull around here without Dixie and TO.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on February 18, 2011, 10:10:16 AM
HOLD ON LADS! I PM'D DIXIE TO ASK HIM TO RE-OPEN THIS THREAD.

FIRSTLY. THIS IS A FORUM FOR DISCUSSION! NOT PERSONAL ABUSE!

SECONDLY. IT IS CLEAR THAT THERE IS SIZEMIC CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE REGION WE NEED TO 'DISCUSS' WHAT WE SEE AND WEIGH UP HOW IT WILL AFFECT US.

THIRDLY. DIXIES OPINIONS ARE OF EQUAL VALUE TO EVERYONE ELSES. MOST OF US ARE FIXATED ON THE IRISH ELECTION SO ITS GOOD THAT SOMEONE IS KEEPING US INFORMED ON IMPORTANT WORLD AFFAIRS

FINALLY. WE ENJOY THE BANTER/CRAIC ON THIS BOARD, ITS CHALLANGING AND AT THE SAME TIME ITS GOOD TO BE ABLE TO HAVE YOUR SAY AND SEE WHAT OTHERS THINK. BUT WHERE ARE WE GOING WHEN A BOARD MEMBER HAS TO LOCK A THREAD BECAUSE HES SICKENED BY THE WAY HIS SUBJECT HAS DETERIATED INTO A SLAGGING MATCH.

PLEASE STOP! ITS THIS TYPE OF ABUSE THAT DRIVES GOOD LADS OFF THE BOARD

+1
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on February 18, 2011, 10:28:48 AM
My mistake...apologies

For the record, can someone clarify if she was raped?

NY post are reporting that it wasn't rape, but I don't know what the dividing line between serious sexual assault and rape is, can't be good irrespective.

Terrible thing to happen to anyone.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 18, 2011, 11:42:06 AM
NY post are reporting that it wasn't rape, but I don't know what the dividing line between serious sexual assault and rape is, can't be good irrespective.

Terrible thing to happen to anyone.

And I agree but just in the same way someone getting punched a few times by a few drunks or a group of yobs jumping up and down on his head are both seen as a serious physical assault. There is a vast variance in the shades of grey (rather than this dividing line) which can hide the truth to a certain degree (not taking away the trauma for the person concerned)

Have no clue where Tony is coming from. He wouldn't say much if he took that attitude to the alot of what he (or anyone else) does in life
 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 18, 2011, 11:50:23 AM
My mistake...apologies

For the record, can someone clarify if she was raped?

NY post are reporting that it wasn't rape, but I don't know what the dividing line between serious sexual assault and rape is, can't be good irrespective.

Terrible thing to happen to anyone.

Most media say she was not raped but rather sexually assaulted, in any case it was clearly is a terrible attack and the people responsible should be caught and put in jail. Rapists and sexual assault perpetrators are the lowest form of scum in my opinion no matter what nationality, creed or colour they might be.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 18, 2011, 12:07:05 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

Again no disagreement Myles

I suppose I got a little off track responding to Trout. My main point on my original post was that we have scum on our doorstep, yet in this case he labels Egypt as being a country full of savages on the back of of this story.

Lets move on
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 18, 2011, 12:39:54 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

Again no disagreement Myles

I suppose I got a little off track responding to Trout. My main point on my original post was that we have scum on our doorstep, yet in this case he labels Egypt as being a country full of savages on the back of of this story.

Lets move on

Wasn't disagreeing with you either skull, just putting my opinion on that out in the open for fear of being accused of supporting the rape/sexual assault of american women in arab countries.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 08:58:09 AM
Onced again, the US shows what side it is on in the middle east where it has effectivly given to green light to Israel to keep on ethnically cleansing Palestinian land and build more illegal settlements.
They sure know how to do their bit for peace and stability..........

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/19/us-veto-israel-settlement

The Obama administration wielded its first veto at the UN security council last night in a move to swipe down a resolution condemning Israeli settlements in Palestinian territory.

The US stood alone among the 15 members of the security council in failing to condemn the resumption of settlement building that has caused a serious rift between the Israeli government and the Palestinian authority and derailed attempts to kick-start the peace process. The Palestinians have made clear that they will not return to the negotiating table until Israel suspends settlement building in East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

The decision placed the US in a controversial position at a time when it is already struggling to define its strategy in a tumultuous Middle East.

The 14 member countries backing the Arab-drafted resolution included Britain and France.

The US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, said the decision to use the veto power – open to the five permanent members of the UN, of which the US is one – "should not be misunderstood to mean we support settlement activity".

She said Washington's view was that the Israeli settlements lacked legitimacy, but added: "Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations."

But the isolated stance of the Obama administration risked the appearance of weakness in its approach to the search for Middle East peace and set it on a contradictory course to its earlier tough language against the settlements.

The Palestinian observer at the UN, Riyad Mansour, said the veto was unfortunate. "We fear ... that the message sent today may be one that only encourages further Israeli intransigence and impunity," he said.

Washington's controversial move clearly riled other members of the security council. Britain, France and Germany put out a joint statement in which they explained they had voted for the resolution "because our views on settlements, including east Jerusalem, are clear: they are illegal under international law, an obstacle to peace, and constitute a threat to a two-state solution. All settlement activity, including in east Jerusalem, should cease immediately."

William Hague said he understood Israeli concern for security, but said that was precisely why Britain had backed the resolution. "We believe that Israel's security and the realisation of the Palestinians' right to statehood are not opposing goals. On the contrary, they are intimately intertwined objectives." The US has used its veto 10 times since 2000, nine of which involved backing the Israeli side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 09:00:04 AM
Some footage of the Bahrain state security forces opening fire on peaceful demonstrators.
This video is pretty horrific, so be warned...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 19, 2011, 10:27:05 AM
The US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, said the decision to use the veto power – open to the five permanent members of the UN, of which the US is one – "should not be misunderstood to mean we support settlement activity".

She said Washington's view was that the Israeli settlements lacked legitimacy, but added: "Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations."


The settlements are ILLEGAL under international law.....there can be no misunderstanding.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 19, 2011, 10:42:11 AM
Some footage of the Bahrain state security forces opening fire on peaceful demonstrators.
This video is pretty horrific, so be warned...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

Will this video make the news I wonder or is the brutality of our friendly dictators out of bounds for the "free" press??
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 11:57:39 AM
Six years have passed since residents of Bil'in, together with their Israeli and international supporters, started regularly demonstrating against the Wall and the confiscation of more than half their land by it. It has been more than three years since the Israeli High Court ruled that the path of the Wall must be changed as soon as possible, and the people of Bil'in have waited long enough.

Hundreds have turned out to mark the sixth anniversary of Bil'in's struggle and have resisted an usually large group of Israeli Occupation Forces for several hours. In chants and slogans, protestors demanded an end to the military occupations, the dismantelling of illegal settlements and the Apartheid Wall,and called for Palestinian unity. IOF have attacked protestors with the "skunk", with sound grenades, rubber bullets, 0.21 life ammunition, and a heavy use of tear gas. Nonetheless, protestors stood in the invading army's way and managed to stop them from entering the village. At one point, activists stood together to resist the occupation's attempt to arrest villagers. At the end of the demonstration, however, one Israeli activist was arrested and accused of stone-throwing. Several protestors sustained injuries, including Hamza Burnat, who was shot at close range into his leg and abdomen with rubber bullets and life ammunition. Hamza is currently at the hospital awaiting surgery.

Click on the following link to see US taxpayers dollars at work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnH9a_2BQIk

PS If you can, boycott CRH, as it is cement supplied by them which is been used to build this illegal wall. Quite embarrassing for an Irish company to be involved in such an inhumane and illegal wall.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 12:00:11 PM
Some footage of the Bahrain state security forces opening fire on peaceful demonstrators.
This video is pretty horrific, so be warned...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwnUQcKXmMM&feature=player_embedded&skipcontrinter=1

Will this video make the news I wonder or is the brutality of our friendly dictators out of bounds for the "free" press??

Somehow I doubt if we will see this video on the mainstream press. While watching this video I thought of Bloddy Sunday in Derry all those years ago.
I'm sure if video phones were available back then, this would have been the images we would have seen of the 14 men getting murdered.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 12:07:42 PM
There was growing anger last night over the enmeshed relationship between authoritarian Gulf governments and the British military and police after weeks of democracy protests across the Arab world that met with violent state repression.


As demonstrators in Bahrain and Libya attended funerals and faced armed soldiers yesterday, campaign groups called on the Government to re-evaluate whether Britain should be so heavily involved in the training of Arab police and the military.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/how-britain-taught-arab-police-forces-all-they-know-2219270.html

In the past two years, British police have helped to train their counterparts in Bahrain, Libya, Abu Dhabi, Qatar and Saudi Arabia through schemes run by the National Policing Improvement Agency (NPIA), which organises overseas training. At present, there are three full-time advisers working with the Bahraini police, which was heavily implicated in the violent crackdown on protests in Manama this week.


Since the warming of relations between Libya and Britain, officers travelled frequently to Tripoli between 2008 and 2009 to train police, and Britain has authorised the export of tear gas, crowd-control ammunition, small-arms ammunition and door-breaching projectile launchers.

Three years ago, ministers agreed to send Libya vehicles armed with water cannons. There are also unconfirmed reports that riot vans made by British companies have been present during crackdowns in the Libyan city of Benghazi, where scores have been killed.

And there is the long-standing connection between the UK military and Arab regimes that send scores of officers through training at Sandhurst. Five Arab heads of state are Sandhurst alumni, including the King of Bahrain, Sheikh Hamad ibn Isa al-Khalifa, who ordered the violent crackdown.

Other Arab rulers who have been through officer training in Britain include King Abdullah of Jordan, the Emir of Kuwait Sheikh Saad al-Abdullah al-Salim Al Sabah, the Sultan of Oman, Qaboos bin Said al Said, and the Emir of Qatar, Sheikh Hamad bin Khalifa Al Thani.

Tom Porteous, the UK director of Human Rights Watch, urged a government review of such close links after the attacks on peaceful protesters in Libya, Yemen and Bahrain.

"It is a real concern and highly symbolic of the cosy and powerful relationship that countries like the UK and the USA have had for many years with these deeply repressive regimes," he said. "The British Government often states that it insists on incorporating human rights elements in its overseas training programmes but when it comes to dealing with protesters, we have seen over the past few weeks how the security forces in many of these countries are unleashed in a particularly brutal way."

An NPIA spokesman said British police have helped to train the Bahrainis in "effective search techniques, tackling cyber-crime, dealing with forensics and evidence gathering", adding "respect for human rights and diversity underpins all NPIA's training and support for overseas police forces".

The MoD said last night that the British military has long-standing "mutually beneficent training programmes" with a host of Middle Eastern countries, adding that the military was still trying to draw up a list of how many officers are involved in training abroad, but declined to comment further.

But Saeed al-Shehabi, a London-based dissident who runs the Bahrain Freedom Movement, said: "The regime in Bahrain has proven that it has no humanity, no respect for human rights or international conventions. British arms are being used for internal repression of peaceful protests. Why is the British Government letting this happen?"

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 12:14:55 PM
Robert Fisk in Bahrain: 'They didn't run away. They faced the bullets head-on'

"Massacre – it's a massacre," the doctors were shouting. Three dead. Four dead. One man was carried past me on a stretcher in the emergency room, blood spurting on to the floor from a massive bullet wound in his thigh.


A few feet away, six nurses were fighting for the life of a pale-faced, bearded man with blood oozing out of his chest. "I have to take him to theatre now," a doctor screamed. "There is no time – he's dying!"

Others were closer to death. One poor youth – 18, 19 years old, perhaps – had a terrible head wound, a bullet hole in the leg and a bloody mess on his chest. The doctor beside him turned to me weeping, tears splashing on to his blood-stained gown. "He has a fragmented bullet in his brain and I can't get the bits out, and the bones on the left side of his head are completely smashed. His arteries are all broken. I just can't help him." Blood was cascading on to the floor. It was pitiful, outrageous, shameful. These were not armed men but mourners returning from a funeral, Shia Muslims of course, shot down by their own Bahraini army yesterday afternoon.

A medical orderly was returning with thousands of other men and women from the funeral at Daih of one of the demonstrators killed at Pearl Square in the early hours of Thursday.

"We decided to walk to the hospital because we knew there was a demonstration. Some of us were carrying tree branches as a token of peace which we wanted to give to the soldiers near the square, and we were shouting 'peace, peace. There was no provocation – nothing against the government. Then suddenly the soldiers started shooting. One was firing a machine gun from the top of a personnel carrier. There were police but they just left as the soldiers shot at us. But you know, the people in Bahrain have changed. They didn't want to run away. They faced the bullets with their bodies."

The demonstration at the hospital had already drawn thousands of Shia protesters – including hundreds of doctors and nurses from all over Manama, still in their white gowns – to demand the resignation of the Bahraini Minister of Health, Faisal Mohamed al-Homor, for refusing to allow ambulances to fetch the dead and injured from Thursday morning's police attack on the Pearl Square demonstrators.

But their fury turned to near-hysteria when the first wounded were brought in yesterday. Up to 100 doctors crowded into the emergency rooms, shouting and cursing their King and their government as paramedics fought to push trolleys loaded with the latest victims through screaming crowds. One man had a thick wad of bandages stuffed into his chest but blood was already staining his torso, dripping off the trolley. "He has a live round in his chest – and now there is air and blood in his lungs," the nurse beside him told me. "I think he is going." Thus did the anger of Bahrain's army – and, I suppose, the anger of the al-Khalifa family, the King included – reach the Sulmaniya medical centre.

The staff felt that they too were victims. And they were right. Five ambulances sent to the street – yesterday's victims were shot down opposite a fire station close to Pearl Square – were stopped by the army. Moments later, the hospital discovered that all their mobile phones had been switched off. Inside the hospital was a doctor, Sadeq al-Aberi, who was himself badly hurt by the police when he went to help the wounded on Thursday morning.

Rumours burned like petrol in Bahrain yesterday and many medical staff were insisting that up to 60 corpses had been taken from Pearl Square on Thursday morning and that police were seen by crowds loading bodies into three refrigerated trucks. One man showed me a mobile phone snapshot in which the three trucks could be seen clearly, parked behind several army armoured personnel carriers. According to other demonstrators, the vehicles, which bore Saudi registration plates, were later seen on the highway to Saudi Arabia. It is easy to dismiss such ghoulish stories, but I found one man – another male nurse at the hospital who works under the umbrella of the United Nations – who told me that an American colleague, he gave his name as "Jarrod", had videotaped the bodies being put into the trucks but was then arrested by the police and had not been seen since.

Why has the royal family of Bahrain allowed its soldiers to open fire at peaceful demonstrators? To turn on Bahraini civilians with live fire within 24 hours of the earlier killings seems like an act of lunacy.

But the heavy hand of Saudi Arabia may not be far away. The Saudis are fearful that the demonstrations in Manama and the towns of Bahrain will light equally provocative fires in the east of their kingdom, where a substantial Shia minority lives around Dhahran and other towns close to the Kuwaiti border. Their desire to see the Shia of Bahrain crushed as quickly as possible was made very clear at Thursday's Gulf summit here, with all the sheikhs and princes agreeing that there would be no Egyptian-style revolution in a kingdom which has a Shia majority of perhaps 70 per cent and a small Sunni minority which includes the royal family.

Yet Egypt's revolution is on everyone's lips in Bahrain. Outside the hospital, they were shouting: "The people want to topple the minister," a slight variation of the chant of the Egyptians who got rid of Mubarak, "The people want to topple the government."

And many in the crowd said – as the Egyptians said – that they had lost their fear of the authorities, of the police and army.

The policemen and soldiers for whom they now express such disgust were all too evident on the streets of Manama yesterday, watching sullenly from midnight-blue armoured vehicles or perched on American-made tanks. There appeared to be no British weaponry in evidence – although these are early days and there was Russian-made armour alongside the M-60 tanks. In the past, small Shia uprisings were ruthlessly crushed in Bahrain with the help of a Jordanian torturer and a senior intelligence factotum who just happened to be a former British Special Branch officer.

And the stakes here are high. This is the first serious insurrection in the wealthy Gulf states – more dangerous to the Saudis than the Islamists who took over the centre of Mecca more than 30 years ago – and Bahrain's al-Khalifa family realise just how fraught the coming days will be for them. A source which has always proved reliable over many years told me that late on Wednesday night, a member of the al-Khalifa family – said to be the Crown Prince – held a series of telephone conversations with a prominent Shia cleric, the Wifaq Shia party leader, Ali Salman, who was camping in Pearl Square. The Prince apparently offered a series of reforms and government changes which he thought the cleric had approved. But the demonstrators stayed in the square. They demanded the dissolution of parliament. Then came the police.

In the early afternoon yesterday, around 3,000 people held a rally in support of the al-Khalifas and there was much waving of the national flag from the windows of cars. This may make the front pages of the Bahraini press today – but it won't end the Shia uprising. And last night's chaos at Manama's greatest hospital – the blood slopping off the wounded, the shouts for help from those on the stretchers, the doctors who had never before seen such gunshot wounds; one of them simply shook his head in disbelief when a woman went into a fit next to a man who was sheathed in blood – has only further embittered the Shia of this nation.

A doctor who gave his name as Hussein stopped me leaving the emergency room because he wanted to explain his anger. "The Israelis do this sort of thing to the Palestinians – but these are Arabs shooting at Arabs," he bellowed above the din of screams and shouts of fury. "This is the Bahraini government doing this to their own people. I was in Egypt two weeks ago, working at the Qasr el-Aini hospital – but things are much more fucked up here."
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 12:38:36 PM
The US ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, said the decision to use the veto power – open to the five permanent members of the UN, of which the US is one – "should not be misunderstood to mean we support settlement activity".

She said Washington's view was that the Israeli settlements lacked legitimacy, but added: "Unfortunately, this draft resolution risks hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to stay out of negotiations."


The settlements are ILLEGAL under international law.....there can be no misunderstanding.

Groucho, a couple of months ago in an attempt to re start the so called peace process talks, the US offered Israel a $3billion aid package. (In addition to the $3 billion they already recieve annually).

The package included 20 new F35 killing machines, plus a guarantee that they would use their veto in the UN to block the Goldstone report on the slaughter in Gaza, and also block any attempts by the UN to find Israel guilty over the massacre onboard the Mavi Mamara in International waters which left 8 Turks and a US citizen dead.

To recieve this package, all Israel had to do was to stop their ILLEGAL building for 3 months. They refused the package, and kept on building. Now, what has the world come to whenever a nation is doing something illegal, and to ask them to stop for a few weeks, they are offered $3 billion? Is the punishment for illegal activity now a present?

As we have seen from this veto yesterday by the US, Israel and the US don't care about international law, and it is also clear as to who is running the US. The tail is certainly wagging the dog........
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: All of a Sludden on February 19, 2011, 01:45:03 PM
As we have seen from this veto yesterday by the US, Israel and the US don't care about international law, and it is also clear as to who is running the US. The tail is certainly wagging the dog........

GHD, I think you can be every bit as biased as the Americans and the Israelis but I have to agree with you on the quoted piece.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 19, 2011, 03:39:58 PM
No matter who is in charge the country will still be full of savages like those mentioned above that raped the reporter.

Again no disagreement Myles

I suppose I got a little off track responding to Trout. My main point on my original post was that we have scum on our doorstep, yet in this case he labels Egypt as being a country full of savages on the back of of this story.

Lets move on

Wasn't disagreeing with you either skull, just putting my opinion on that out in the open for fear of being accused of supporting the rape/sexual assault of american women in arab countries.
You mean South African right myles?..again if she were a muslim and had suffered such a brutal race based attack, you'd know exactly where she was from  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 06:25:09 PM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/feb/19/libyan-protesters-gaddafi-suicide-army

Colonel Muammar Gaddafi is confronting the most serious challenge to his 42-year rule as leader of Libya by unleashing his army on unarmed protesters.

Unlike the rulers of neighbouring Egypt, Gaddafi has refused to countenance the politics of disobedience, despite growing international condemnation, and the death toll of demonstrators nearing 100.

The pro-government Al-Zahf al-Akhdar newspaper warned that the government would "violently and thunderously respond" to the protests, and said those opposing the regime risked "suicide".

William Hague, the UK's foreign secretary, condemned the violence as "unacceptable and horrifying", even as the Libyan regime's special forces, backed by African mercenaries, launched a dawn attack on a protest camp in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi.

Britain is scrambling to extricate itself from its recently cosy relationship with Gaddafi, initiated by then prime minister Tony Blair in 2004. That rapprochement saw Libya open its doors to British oil companies in exchange for becoming a new ally in the "war on terror" while Britain sold Gaddafi arms.

Hague's outspoken comments came a day after the government revoked arms export licenses to both Bahrain and Libya for their use of deadly force against protesters calling for a change in the regime.

With internet services in Libya shut off for long periods, foreign journalists excluded and access already blocked to social networking sites, Gaddafi appeared determined to quell a revolt centred in the country's east, which has long suffered a policy of deliberate economic exclusion.

Libya has also jammed the signals of Al-Jazeera, the Arab broadcaster to the country. Reports from inside the country claimed pro-regime forces had deliberately aimed at protesters' heads.

That allegation appeared to be supported by shocking video footage smuggled out of the country which seems to show two unarmed protesters being shot in the head.

Hague said: "Governments must respond to legitimate aspirations of their people, rather than resort to the use of force, and must respect the right to peaceful protest.

"I condemn the violence in Libya, including reports of the use of heavy weapons fire and a unit of snipers against demonstrators. This is clearly unacceptable and horrifying.

"Media access has been severely restricted. The absence of TV cameras does not mean the attention of the world should not be focused on the actions of the Libyan government."

At least five cities in eastern Libya have seen protests and clashes in recent days. Special forces attempted to break up a protest camp that included lawyers and judges outside Benghazi's courthouse. "They fired tear gas on protesters in tents and cleared the areas after many fled carrying the dead and the injured," one protester said.

A mass funeral for 35 people who died on Friday came under fire from pro-government snipers who killed one person at the procession and injured a dozen more, according to sources in the city.

The shootings came amid credible reports of a round-up of government opponents who were taken from their homes in raids by security forces.

The crackdown has been led by the elite Khamis Brigade, led by Gaddafi's youngest son. Unconfirmed reports claim that force has been backed by African mercenaries brought into the country in five separate flights.

A video on the Libya 17th February website appeared to show an injured African mercenary who had captured by anti-government protesters.

Protests have so far been centred on Benghazi and the towns of Bayda, Ajdabiya, Zawiya, and Derna while Tripoli has remained so far calm but tense.The latest events in Libya have come against the background of continuing protests across the Middle East and North Africa.

In Bahrain, which has also seen attempts to put down pro-democracy protests with lethal force in recent days, anti-government protesters swarmed back to a symbolic square on Saturday, putting riot police to flight after the army was withdrawn.

A wave of protests has spread through the Middle East and North Africa after rebellions in Tunisia and Egypt toppled their long term leaders.

In Yemen today riot police shot dead a protester and injured five others after opening fire on thousands of marchers.

Meanwhile in Algeria police brandishing clubs broke a rally into isolated groups to keep protesters from marching.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 19, 2011, 06:36:25 PM
I doubt if the war lord Tony Blair will speak out to loudly against Gaddafi, considering his close ties to his family..........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284132/Tony-Blair-special-adviser-dictator-Gaddafis-son.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 12:49:07 AM
Robert Fisk: These are secular popular revolts – yet everyone is blaming religion

Sunday, 20 February 2011

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-these-are-secular-popular-revolts-ndash-yet-everyone-is-blaming-religion-2220134.html

Mubarak claimed that Islamists were behind the Egyptian revolution. Ben Ali said the same in Tunisia. King Abdullah of Jordan sees a dark and sinister hand – al-Qa'ida's hand, the Muslim Brotherhood's hand, an Islamist hand – behind the civil insurrection across the Arab world. Yesterday the Bahraini authorities discovered Hizbollah's bloody hand behind the Shia uprising there. For Hizbollah, read Iran. How on earth do well-educated if singularly undemocratic men get this thing so wrong? Confronted by a series of secular explosions – Bahrain does not quite fit into this bracket – they blame radical Islam. The Shah made an identical mistake in reverse. Confronted by an obviously Islamic uprising, he blamed it on Communists.

Bobbysocks Obama and Clinton have managed an even weirder somersault. Having originally supported the "stable" dictatorships of the Middle East – when they should have stood by the forces of democracy – they decided to support civilian calls for democracy in the Arab world at a time when the Arabs were so utterly disenchanted with the West's hypocrisy that they didn't want America on their side. "The Americans interfered in our country for 30 years under Mubarak, supporting his regime, arming his soldiers," an Egyptian student told me in Tahrir Square last week. "Now we would be grateful if they stopped interfering on our side." At the end of the week, I heard identical voices in Bahrain. "We are getting shot by American weapons fired by American-trained Bahraini soldiers with American-made tanks," a medical orderly told me on Friday. "And now Obama wants to be on our side?"

The events of the past two months and the spirit of anti-regime Arab insurrection – for dignity and justice, rather than any Islamic emirate – will remain in our history books for hundreds of years. And the failure of Islam's strictest adherents will be discussed for decades. There was a special piquancy to the latest footage from al-Qa'ida yesterday, recorded before the overthrow of Mubarak, that emphasised the need for Islam to triumph in Egypt; yet a week earlier the forces of secular, nationalist, honourable Egypt, Muslim and Christian men and women, had got rid of the old man without any help from Bin Laden Inc. Even weirder was the reaction from Iran, whose supreme leader convinced himself that the Egyptian people's success was a victory for Islam. It's a sobering thought that only al-Qa'ida and Iran and their most loathed enemies, the anti-Islamist Arab dictators, believed that religion lay behind the mass rebellion of pro-democracy protesters.

The bloodiest irony of all – which dawned rather slowly on Obama – was that the Islamic Republic of Iran was praising the democrats of Egypt while threatening to execute its own democratic opposition leaders.

Not, then, a great week for "Islamicism". There's a catch, of course. Almost all the millions of Arab demonstrators who wish to shrug off the cloak of autocracy which – with our Western help – has smothered their lives in humiliation and fear are indeed Muslims. And Muslims – unlike the "Christian" West – have not lost their faith. Under the stones and coshes of Mubarak's police killers, they counter-attacked, shouting "Allah akbar" for this was indeed for them a "jihad" – not a religious war but a struggle for justice. "God is Great" and a demand for justice are entirely consistent. For the struggle against injustice is the very spirit of the Koran.

In Bahrain we have a special case. Here a Shia majority is ruled by a minority of pro-monarchy Sunni Muslims. Syria, by the way, may suffer from "Bahrainitis" for the same reason: a Sunni majority ruled by an Alawite (Shia) minority. Well, at least the West – in its sagging support for King Hamad of Bahrain – can point to the fact that Bahrain, like Kuwait, has a parliament. It's a sad old beast, existing from 1973 to 1975 when it was dissolved unconstitutionally, and then reinvented in 2001 as part of a package of "reforms". But the new parliament turned out to be even more unrepresentative than the first. Opposition politicians were harassed by state security, and parliamentary boundaries were gerrymandered, Ulster-style, to make sure that the minority Sunnis controlled it. In 2006 and 2010, for example, the main Shia party in Bahrain gained only 18 out of 40 seats. Indeed, there is a distinctly Northern Ireland feel to Sunni perspectives in Bahrain. Many have told me that they fear for their lives, that Shia mobs will burn their homes and kill them.

All this is set to change. Control of state power has to be legitimised to be effective, and the use of live fire to overwhelm peaceful protest was bound to end in Bahrain in a series of little Bloody Sundays. Once Arabs learnt to lose their fear, they could claim the civil rights that Catholics in Northern Ireland once demanded in the face of RUC brutality. In the end, the British had to destroy Unionist rule and bring the IRA into joint power with Protestants. The parallels are not exact and the Shias do not (yet) have a militia, although the Bahraini government has produced photographs of pistols and swords – hardly a major weapon of the IRA – to support their contention that its opponents include "terrorists".

In Bahrain there is, needless to say, a sectarian as much as a secular battle, something that the Crown Prince unwittingly acknowledged when he originally said that the security forces had to suppress protests to prevent sectarian violence. It's a view held all too savagely by Saudi Arabia, which has a strong interest in the suppression of dissent in Bahrain. The Shias of Saudi Arabia might get uppity if their co-religionists in Bahrain overwhelm the state. Then we'll really hear the leaders of the Shia Islamic Republic of Iran crowing.

But these interconnected insurrections should not be seen in a simple ferment-in-the-Middle-East framework. The Yemeni uprising against President Saleh (32 years in power) is democratic but also tribal, and it won't be long before the opposition uses guns. Yemen is a heavily armed society, tribes with flags, nationalist-rampant. And then there is Libya.

Gaddafi is so odd, his Green Book theories – dispatched by Benghazi demonstrators last week when they pulled down a concrete version of this particular volume – so preposterous, his rule so cruel (and he's been running the place for 42 years) that he is an Ozymandias waiting to fall. His flirtation with Berlusconi – worse still, his cloying love affair with Tony Blair whose foreign secretary, Jack Straw, praised the Libyan lunatic's "statesmanship" – was never going to save him. Bedecked with more medals than General Eisenhower, desperate for a doctor to face-lift his sagging jowls, this wretched man is threatening "terrible" punishment against his own people for challenging his rule. Two things to remember about Libya: like Yemen, it's a tribal land; and when it turned against its Italian fascist overlords, it began a savage war of liberation whose brave leaders faced the hangman's noose with unbelievable courage. Just because Gaddafi is a nutter does not mean his people are fools.

So it's a sea-change in the Middle East's political, social, cultural world. It will create many tragedies, raise many hopes and shed far too much blood. Better perhaps to ignore all the analysts and the "think tanks" whose silly "experts" dominate the satellite channels. If Czechs could have their freedom, why not the Egyptians? If dictators can be overthrown in Europe – first the fascists, then the Communists – why not in the great Arab Muslim world? And – just for a moment – keep religion out of this.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 20, 2011, 12:56:29 AM
Robert Fisk: These are secular popular revolts – yet everyone is blaming religion

Sunday, 20 February 2011

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-these-are-secular-popular-revolts-ndash-yet-everyone-is-blaming-religion-2220134.html

Mubarak claimed that Islamists were behind the Egyptian revolution. Ben Ali said the same in Tunisia. King Abdullah of Jordan sees a dark and sinister hand – al-Qa'ida's hand, the Muslim Brotherhood's hand, an Islamist hand – behind the civil insurrection across the Arab world. Yesterday the Bahraini authorities discovered Hizbollah's bloody hand behind the Shia uprising there. For Hizbollah, read Iran. How on earth do well-educated if singularly undemocratic men get this thing so wrong? Confronted by a series of secular explosions – Bahrain does not quite fit into this bracket – they blame radical Islam. The Shah made an identical mistake in reverse. Confronted by an obviously Islamic uprising, he blamed it on Communists.

Bobbysocks Obama and Clinton have managed an even weirder somersault. Having originally supported the "stable" dictatorships of the Middle East – when they should have stood by the forces of democracy – they decided to support civilian calls for democracy in the Arab world at a time when the Arabs were so utterly disenchanted with the West's hypocrisy that they didn't want America on their side. "The Americans interfered in our country for 30 years under Mubarak, supporting his regime, arming his soldiers," an Egyptian student told me in Tahrir Square last week. "Now we would be grateful if they stopped interfering on our side." At the end of the week, I heard identical voices in Bahrain. "We are getting shot by American weapons fired by American-trained Bahraini soldiers with American-made tanks," a medical orderly told me on Friday. "And now Obama wants to be on our side?"

The events of the past two months and the spirit of anti-regime Arab insurrection – for dignity and justice, rather than any Islamic emirate – will remain in our history books for hundreds of years. And the failure of Islam's strictest adherents will be discussed for decades. There was a special piquancy to the latest footage from al-Qa'ida yesterday, recorded before the overthrow of Mubarak, that emphasised the need for Islam to triumph in Egypt; yet a week earlier the forces of secular, nationalist, honourable Egypt, Muslim and Christian men and women, had got rid of the old man without any help from Bin Laden Inc. Even weirder was the reaction from Iran, whose supreme leader convinced himself that the Egyptian people's success was a victory for Islam. It's a sobering thought that only al-Qa'ida and Iran and their most loathed enemies, the anti-Islamist Arab dictators, believed that religion lay behind the mass rebellion of pro-democracy protesters.

The bloodiest irony of all – which dawned rather slowly on Obama – was that the Islamic Republic of Iran was praising the democrats of Egypt while threatening to execute its own democratic opposition leaders.

Not, then, a great week for "Islamicism". There's a catch, of course. Almost all the millions of Arab demonstrators who wish to shrug off the cloak of autocracy which – with our Western help – has smothered their lives in humiliation and fear are indeed Muslims. And Muslims – unlike the "Christian" West – have not lost their faith. Under the stones and coshes of Mubarak's police killers, they counter-attacked, shouting "Allah akbar" for this was indeed for them a "jihad" – not a religious war but a struggle for justice. "God is Great" and a demand for justice are entirely consistent. For the struggle against injustice is the very spirit of the Koran.

In Bahrain we have a special case. Here a Shia majority is ruled by a minority of pro-monarchy Sunni Muslims. Syria, by the way, may suffer from "Bahrainitis" for the same reason: a Sunni majority ruled by an Alawite (Shia) minority. Well, at least the West – in its sagging support for King Hamad of Bahrain – can point to the fact that Bahrain, like Kuwait, has a parliament. It's a sad old beast, existing from 1973 to 1975 when it was dissolved unconstitutionally, and then reinvented in 2001 as part of a package of "reforms". But the new parliament turned out to be even more unrepresentative than the first. Opposition politicians were harassed by state security, and parliamentary boundaries were gerrymandered, Ulster-style, to make sure that the minority Sunnis controlled it. In 2006 and 2010, for example, the main Shia party in Bahrain gained only 18 out of 40 seats. Indeed, there is a distinctly Northern Ireland feel to Sunni perspectives in Bahrain. Many have told me that they fear for their lives, that Shia mobs will burn their homes and kill them.

All this is set to change. Control of state power has to be legitimised to be effective, and the use of live fire to overwhelm peaceful protest was bound to end in Bahrain in a series of little Bloody Sundays. Once Arabs learnt to lose their fear, they could claim the civil rights that Catholics in Northern Ireland once demanded in the face of RUC brutality. In the end, the British had to destroy Unionist rule and bring the IRA into joint power with Protestants. The parallels are not exact and the Shias do not (yet) have a militia, although the Bahraini government has produced photographs of pistols and swords – hardly a major weapon of the IRA – to support their contention that its opponents include "terrorists".

In Bahrain there is, needless to say, a sectarian as much as a secular battle, something that the Crown Prince unwittingly acknowledged when he originally said that the security forces had to suppress protests to prevent sectarian violence. It's a view held all too savagely by Saudi Arabia, which has a strong interest in the suppression of dissent in Bahrain. The Shias of Saudi Arabia might get uppity if their co-religionists in Bahrain overwhelm the state. Then we'll really hear the leaders of the Shia Islamic Republic of Iran crowing.

But these interconnected insurrections should not be seen in a simple ferment-in-the-Middle-East framework. The Yemeni uprising against President Saleh (32 years in power) is democratic but also tribal, and it won't be long before the opposition uses guns. Yemen is a heavily armed society, tribes with flags, nationalist-rampant. And then there is Libya.

Gaddafi is so odd, his Green Book theories – dispatched by Benghazi demonstrators last week when they pulled down a concrete version of this particular volume – so preposterous, his rule so cruel (and he's been running the place for 42 years) that he is an Ozymandias waiting to fall. His flirtation with Berlusconi – worse still, his cloying love affair with Tony Blair whose foreign secretary, Jack Straw, praised the Libyan lunatic's "statesmanship" – was never going to save him. Bedecked with more medals than General Eisenhower, desperate for a doctor to face-lift his sagging jowls, this wretched man is threatening "terrible" punishment against his own people for challenging his rule. Two things to remember about Libya: like Yemen, it's a tribal land; and when it turned against its Italian fascist overlords, it began a savage war of liberation whose brave leaders faced the hangman's noose with unbelievable courage. Just because Gaddafi is a nutter does not mean his people are fools.

So it's a sea-change in the Middle East's political, social, cultural world. It will create many tragedies, raise many hopes and shed far too much blood. Better perhaps to ignore all the analysts and the "think tanks" whose silly "experts" dominate the satellite channels. If Czechs could have their freedom, why not the Egyptians? If dictators can be overthrown in Europe – first the fascists, then the Communists – why not in the great Arab Muslim world? And – just for a moment – keep religion out of this.
I stopped reading at "Robert Fisk". you kind of know where it is going...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on February 20, 2011, 07:46:01 AM
good man Tony, don't try to get an insight into what is happening from all sides just make up your own mind and stick with that......... ???



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 20, 2011, 08:00:27 AM
From "all sides" php? Pull the other one. People talk about discussion on this thread but when it's one article after the other from the same side... Author even... How's that all sides? FFS Fisk has more posts on this board than half the posters!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on February 20, 2011, 08:11:04 AM
Puckoon, its amazing what you can find if you look, there are other websites, newspapers, news channels etc. out there , the world doesn't revolve around this thread and the GAA Board. They are the all sides i was referring to.

If someone put up an article i would read it regardless of the author or the percieved bias they have, if i felt the need to disagree with the content then i would but i won't be dismissing anything without reading it even something from Glen Beck who i dislike but am strangly drawn to watch.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 20, 2011, 08:40:02 AM
Puckoon/tony. Could you tells us what bits of fisks article you disagree with or which "facts" he writes which are un-true. Also, if you know of any could you post the links to any articles on these revolutions from a journalist on the ground who has a different point of view to fisk. Thanks.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 10:31:39 AM
The latest article from Fisk is as good a summary on the latest developments as I have read. Especially the similarities to the days of old here at home. His last paragraph sums it all up well, and maybe it's his last line that is what people here have trouble getting their head around........ Strange that in the past weeks when hundreds of people have been murdered, 2 dictators overthrown, revolutions spreading to other countries, and people only want to have a pop at Robert Fisk? Have you no thoughts on the current situation yourselves?

Yesterday saw a brutal day in Libya, where reports of up to 100 people were murdered by thugs shipped into the region and paid byby Gaddafi. In Benghaza, machine gun fire mowed people down, killing scores and injuring hundreds. In Tunisia and Egypt the rubber bullets and tear gas was used 1st. Gaddafi just went straight to using live rounds. 42 years in power has certainly melted his brain, and his sense of humanity. (If he ever had any)....

However, he has plenty of oil, and with Tony Blair as one of his advisers, we all know what side the powerful leaders in the west will take. One thing we have come to see through history is that oil is more important than anyones human rights, and Libya is no different. It has Africa's largest reserves of oil, yet over 2/3's of the population live below the poverty line. Gaddafi and his family and friends pocket all the money.

In Bahrain, the protesters went back to Pearl Roundabout and have now taken over. Yesterday, while it was sealed off and surrounded by security, 2 young women broke through and confronted them with a Bahrain flag and flowers. It was an amazing scene, and the bravery they showed was just unreal. They said later that they were prepared to die in order to show the powers that be that they were not afraid anymore. Following the womens bravery, hunderds of people tore down the razor wire and burst through and re took Pearl Roundabout, and they are still there now.

The fallout from the decision of the US to support Israel's illegal settlement building has isolated the 2 states futher not only in the middle east, but across the world. This was a clear opportunity for the US to back up their claims of support for democracy and peace in the region, and instead, they showed that they dont care one bit. People all over the region know that they can't be trusted, and will not trust them or believe them in the coming weeks and months as they stick their nose in again. They have been sidelined, and will no doubt be froze out in the creation of new democratic countries in the region. They blew their chance to stand on the side of humanity.



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 10:51:25 AM
With settlement resolution veto, Obama has joined Likud

An America that understands that the settlements are the obstacle should have joined in condemning them.
By Gideon Levy

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/with-settlement-resolution-veto-obama-has-joined-likud-1.344502

This weekend, a new member enrolled in Likud - and not just in the ruling party, but in its most hawkish wing. Located somewhere between Tzipi Hotovely and Danny Danon, U.S. President Barack Obama bypassed Dan Meridor and Michael Eitan on the right and weakened their position.

The first veto cast by the United States during Obama's term, a veto he promised in vain not to use as his predecessors did, was a veto against the chance and promise of change, a veto against hope. This is a veto that is not friendly to Israel; it supports the settlers and the Israeli right, and them alone.

The excuses of the American ambassador to the UN won't help, and neither will the words of thanks from the Prime Minister's Office: This is a step that is nothing less than hostile to Israel. America, which Israel depends on more than ever, said yes to settlements. That is the one and only meaning of its decision, and in so doing, it supported the enterprise most damaging to Israel.

Moreover, it did so at a time when winds of change are blowing in the Middle East. A promise of change was heard from America, but instead, it continued with its automatic responses and its blind support of Israel's settlement building. This is not an America that will be able to change its standing among the peoples of the region. And Israel, an international pariah, once again found itself supported only by America.

This should have disturbed every Israeli. Is that what we are? Alone and condemned? And all for the continuation of that worthless enterprise? Is it really worth the price? To hell with the UN and the whole world is against us?

We can't wrap ourselves in this hollow iron dome forever. We must open our eyes and understand that if no country, aside from weakening America, supports this caprice of ours, then something fundamental is wrong here.

Israel, which is condemned by the entire world but continues merrily on its way, is a country that is losing its connection to reality. It is also a country that will ultimately find itself left entirely to its fate. That is why America's decision harmed Israel's interests: It continued to blind and stupefy Israel into thinking it can go on this way forever.

A friendly U.S., concerned for Israel's fate, should have said no. An America that understands that the settlements are the obstacle should have joined in condemning them. A superpower that wants to make peace, at a time when Arab peoples are rising up against their regimes and against the U.S. and Israel, should have understood that it must change the old, bad rules of the game of blanket support for the ally addicted to its settlements.

A friendly America should have mobilized to wean Israel of its addiction Only it can do so, and it should have started, belatedly, at the Security Council on Friday.

But promises of change and of real concern for Israel are one thing, and diplomatic behavior is another: another automatic veto, as if nothing has changed. Obama or George W. Bush, there's no difference. When Ambassador Susan Rice said that the draft resolution risked hardening the positions of both sides and could encourage the parties to refrain from negotiations, she misled. She knows that what prevents negotiations and hardens positions is continued building in the settlements.

And when the Israeli Foreign Ministry said it is "peculiar that the Security Council should choose to consider one single aspect" of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations "while ignoring the wider scope of events in our region," it, too, misled. Do the Foreign Ministry's spokesmen really believe there is a serious party that would agree to Israel creating irreversible facts on the ground without let or hindrance?

And to call this "one single aspect?" Perhaps it is only one, but it is certainly the most destructive. And thus it is the one the world sought to condemn - and rightly so.

Moreover, this veto was not cast during ordinary days. These are days of boiling lava in the region. If there were a responsible government in Israel, it would have stopped settlement building long ago - not only to deflect fire from Israel, but to promote an agreement that has never been more vital for it.

If the U.S. had been a responsible superpower, it would have voted for the resolution on Friday to rouse Israel from its dangerous sleep. Instead, we got a hostile veto from Washington, shouts of joy from Jerusalem and a party that will end very badly for both.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on February 20, 2011, 11:38:32 AM
gadaffis not going to back down he's slaughtering protesters by the hundred according to the bbc
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 12:16:49 PM
Gaddafi has shut down the internet and has banned any foriegn journalists from entering Libya.
However, some footage has got out, and it's horrific. The phone calls to the people on the ground
are very tough to listen to as you can hear rapid machine gun fire going off in the background.

Human Rights Watch have confirmed that 173 people have now been murdered, however, that figure
is a lot higher according to people on the ground. It's going to be a tough few days in Libya, and no doubt
more protestors will die. However, they have taken a stand against Gaddafi, and there is no backing down for them now. They have seen Mubarak and Ben Ali go, and there is no reason to doubt that Gaddafi can go as well.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on February 20, 2011, 12:21:43 PM
get ready europe for 100s of thousands of 'genuine' political refugees. i was surprised reading another post by the size of the populations in these north african countries 50millions etc thats nearly as many as the uk
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 12:24:53 PM
'Clinton threatened to cancel aid to PA'

Palestinian President Abbas stresses PA won't boycott US, after Yasser Abed Rabbo slammed American mediation. Fatah element claims Obama told Abbas no other US president has done more to promote Palestinian issue

Elior Levy, Published:  02.19.11, 20:27
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4030816,00.html

While the Palestinians continue to express their anger over the US veto against a UN vote condemning Israel's settlement construction policy, new details have surfaced regarding the pre-veto discussions. Fatah elements claimed Saturday that US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton threatened to halt financial aid should the Palestinian Authority not withdraw its draft from the Security Council's agenda. Nevertheless, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas stressed that the PA will not boycott the US.

Fatah, Hamas leaders incensed by decision to veto UN vote to condemn Israeli settlements, saying it reveals lie behind calls for democracy, freedom in Arab world. 'We'll appeal to General Assembly,' says PLO secretary.

A senior Fatah element told the Palestinian news agency Sama that Clinton threatened Abbas on Friday to cancel US aid. According to the source, US President Barack Obama told Abbas on Thursday night that no other American president has promoted the Palestinian issue more vigorously .

Following Yasser Abed Rabbo's statements against the US and his pledge to take the matter up to the General Assembly, Abbas stressed Saturday that the Palestinians do not wish to boycott the US administration but that they were interested in maintaining their rights and protecting their national interest.

The Palestinian president described the effort to gain the support of 14 members of the Security Council as a "diplomatic success."

Meanwhile, the US administration has taken a series of precautionary steps for fear their envoys in the region will be targeted. The US Consulate in Jerusalem has banned US representatives from entering Jericho, driving on West Bank roads and visiting the Allenby Border Crossing in the next three days.

A US source said that no violence targeting US envoys in the West Bank has been recorded as of yet.

Tawfik Tirawi, a member of the Fatah central committee, called for a day of rage to be held in the West Bank next Friday and said the veto had revealed the US's true face.

Palestinian outrage was also noted on the streets. "Hateful Obama, the settlements won't last," hundreds of Palestinians chanted during a protest in Nablus. Several hundred demonstrators marched towards the separation fence in the Tulkarem area and hurled stones at IDF soldiers. A man was arrested.

Dozens in Tel Aviv also protested the US veto and carried signs reading "Apartheid Israel" "Stop the US support of the occupation" and "veto the settlements, choose justice."

Roni Barken, an activist and member of the international movement to boycott Israel said that the veto is "part of a longtime US policy providing Israel and its criminal policy with absolute support". He added, "The protest attracts the world's attention and aimes to pressure the US into aligning itself with international law and consensus."
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 20, 2011, 12:38:15 PM
get ready europe for 100s of thousands of 'genuine' political refugees. i was surprised reading another post by the size of the populations in these north african countries 50millions etc thats nearly as many as the uk

Populations in the north African countries:

Morocco      31 million
Algeria        35 million
Tunisia        10 million
Libya           7  million
Egypt         82 million
Palestine      4 million

Total is roughly 169 million people. so yeah Lawnseed, no doubt Europe will see a wave of political refugee's
try and reach it's shores.

The tiny island of Lampedusa, of the coast of Italy, has already seen hundreds of Tunisian's landing in small
boats over the past 3 weeks or so. This is only the start of an exodus from the north African countries.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on February 20, 2011, 12:47:05 PM
do you ever listen to the amercan forces network. A.F.N. you should hear the shite the ordinary us soldier has to listen to. talk about brain washing, but you get a great insight into how the american brain works. unbelievable stuff!

ps great country music though..
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: ludermor on February 20, 2011, 01:13:58 PM
do you ever listen to the amercan forces network. A.F.N. you should hear the shite the ordinary us soldier has to listen to. talk about brain washing, but you get a great insite into how the american brain works. unbelievable stuff!

ps great country music though..
Tell me about it
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: DrinkingHarp on February 20, 2011, 03:30:26 PM
get ready europe for 100s of thousands of 'genuine' political refugees. i was surprised reading another post by the size of the populations in these north african countries 50millions etc thats nearly as many as the uk

Populations in the north African countries:

Morocco      31 million
Algeria        35 million
Tunisia        10 million
Libya           7  million
Egypt         82 million
Palestine      4 million

Total is roughly 169 million people. so yeah Lawnseed, no doubt Europe will see a wave of political refugee's
try and reach it's shores.

The tiny island of Lampedusa, of the coast of Italy, has already seen hundreds of Tunisian's landing in small
boats over the past 3 weeks or so. This is only the start of an exodus from the north African countries.

Don't forget about the emmigration to the U.S.


Third wave of Arab immigration to the United StatesThe number of immigrants remained relatively small during the second wave of Arab immigrants, primarily due to the restrictive immigration policies of the US. However, in 1965, the United States passed new immigration reforms allowing a new wave of Arabs to immigrate. This new group of Arab immigrants was demographically similar to those that immigrated during the past 20 years; however, this wave differed largely in its scope and in their reasons for immigrating. Between 1967 and 2003 some 757,626 Arabs came to the United States, nearly eleven times the amount of immigrants from the second wave.[20] Moreover, during this time, in addition to increasingly regular conflict between Israel and its Arab neighbors, this era was marked by widespread “intra-Arab warfare” and a general increase in religious, ethnic and sectarian tensions in the region.[20] Also, the rise of Islamism in the Middle East during the past few decades helped further drain the region of its native Christian populations.[21] Just as with the previous influx of Arab immigrants, the third major Arab immigration trend consisted of more Palestinians than any other group.[20] The actual number of Palestinians who immigrated to the US during this time is not known because often the United States was not their first destination. That being said, perhaps as many as a quarter of the near 800,000 Arabs were of Palestinian descent. The massive Palestinian exodus was further motivated by the 1967 Six Day War. Further spurring Palestinian immigration were the intifada uprisings of 1987–1993 and 2000–2005.

 
Arab American religions from 2002 Zogby International Institute SurveyAside from Palestinians, Lebanese made up the next biggest group of immigrants during this time. From 1965 to 2005 around 135,000 Lebanese came to the United States.[22] The overwhelming majority, roughly 120,000, came after the commencement of the Lebanese Civil War in 1975.[22] Furthering the emigration from Lebanon was Israel’s 1982 invasion.[20] Egyptians and Iraqis also immigrated to the United States in large numbers during this period. From 1967 to 2003 more than 120,000 Egyptians have immigrated to the US.[23] Of this population, around 50,000 were Coptic Christians.[24] Also, since 1967, 108,000 Iraqis have come to the US.[23] Many fled during the country's drawn-out war with Iran lasting from 1980–1988. Again, in keeping with the “brain-drain” trend of the region, a large portion of these immigrants were educated professionals not willing to serve in the army. Harsh United Nations sanctions following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait further deteriorated Iraq’s economy, increasing emigration. Between the first and second US invasions of Iraq roughly 53,000 Iraqis immigrated to the United States.[23] A sizable portion of Iraqi immigrants during this time were Chaldean Christians. For instance, in Detroit alone from 1960–2003 the Chaldean community grew from 3,000 to 80,000, out of a total population of around 150,000 Iraqi Chaldeans in the US as of 2006.[25] Large numbers of Syrians and Yemenis immigrated to the United States during this wave as well. Since 1967, some 36,000 Syrians have immigrated to the US.[26]



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 20, 2011, 04:35:26 PM
Did fisk write that DH?...some chance!
Bit of a conversation stopper there lad ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 20, 2011, 05:22:07 PM
Did fisk write that DH?...some chance!
Bit of a conversation stopper there lad ;)

Really? In what way?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 20, 2011, 11:39:36 PM
Gaddafi's son on state television painting a very bleak picture of the potential outcomes if the unrest continues

Offers of reform mixed with hard threats against those who he terms as enemies of libya

Serious fear mongering and real sign of desparation
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 20, 2011, 11:48:40 PM
20 pages in and youse still haven't solved the Middle East conundrum. Get a move on lads...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on February 20, 2011, 11:55:57 PM
20 pages in and youse still haven't solved the Middle East conundrum. Get a move on lads...

Aha, a clue. It was a puzzle all along:

Athiest Meddle
Dismal Teethed
Dead Thistle Me
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 21, 2011, 12:29:01 AM
20 pages in and youse still haven't solved the Middle East conundrum. Get a move on lads...

Aha, a clue. It was a puzzle all along:

Athiest Meddle
Dismal Teethed
Dead Thistle Me
It's no "David Ginola".
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Main Street on February 21, 2011, 01:00:51 AM
Gaddafi's son on state television painting a very bleak picture of the potential outcomes if the unrest continues

Offers of reform mixed with hard threats against those who he terms as enemies of libya

Serious fear mongering and real sign of desparation
All the Irish Government have to do to make sure the citizens are compliant when robbing them blind, is threaten the citizens with dried-up ATM's.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 01:46:50 AM

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/02/2011220232725966251.html

A son of Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi has promised a programme of reforms after bloody protests against his father's rule reached the capital, Tripoli.

Seif al-Islam Gaddafi also hit out at those behind the violence. He said protests against his father's rule, which have been concentrated in the east of the country, threatened to sink Libya into civil war and split the country up into several small states.

Appearing on Libyan state television early on Monday morning, Seif al-Islam said his father is in the country and backed by the army. "We will fight to the last minute, until the last bullet."

He said his father was leading the fight, although he added that some military bases, tanks and weapons had been seized.

"We are not Tunisia and Egypt,"  the younger Gaddafi said, referring to the successful uprisings that toppled longtime regimes in Libya's neighbours

He acknowledged that the army made mistakes during protests because it was not trained to deal with demonstrators but added that the number of dead had been exaggerated, giving a death toll of 84.

Human Rights Watch put the number at 174 through Saturday, and doctors in the eastern city of Benghazi said more than 200 have died since the protests began.

The younger Gaddafi offered to put forward reforms within days that he described as a "historic national initiative" and said the regime was willing to remove some restrictions and begin discussions for a constitution. He offered to change a number of laws, including those covering the media and the penal code.

He said the General People's Congress, Libya's equivalent of a parliament, would convene on Monday to discuss a "clear" reform agenda, while the government would also raise wages.

After Seif al-Islam's address, Najla Abdurahman, a Libyan dissident, told Al Jazeera: "He's threatening Libya and trying to play up on their fears. I don't think anyone in Libya who isn't close to the Gaddafi regime would buy anything he said.

"And even if there is any truth to what he said, I don't think it's any better than what the people of Libya have already been living with for the past 40 years. He promised that the country would spiral into civil war for the next 30 to 40 years, that the country's infrastructure would be ruined, hospitals and schools would no longer be functioning - but schools are already terrible, hospitals are already in bad condition.


His address followed reports that security forces had shot dead scores of protesters in Benghazi, Libya's second largest city, where residents said a military unit had joined their cause.

There were also reports of clashes between anti-government protesters and Gaddafi supporters around the Green Square.

"We are in Tripoli, there are chants [directed at Gaddafi]: 'Where are you? Where are you? Come out if you're a man," a protester told Al Jazeera on phone.

A resident told the Reuters news agency that he could hear gunshots in the streets and crowds of people.

 "We're inside the house and the lights are out. There are gunshots in the street," the resident said by phone. "That's what I hear, gunshots and people. I can't go outside."

An expatriate worker living in the Libyan capital told Reuters: "Some anti-government demonstrators are gathering in the residential complexes. The police are dispersing them. I can also see burning cars."

There were also reports of protesters heading to Gaddafi's compound in the city of Al-Zawia near Tripoli, with the intention of burning the building down.

Meanwhile the head of the Al-Zuwayya tribe in eastern Libya has threatened to cut off oil exports unless authorities stop what he called the "oppression of protesters", the Warfala tribe, one of Libya's biggest, has reportedly joined the anti-Gaddafi protests.

Speaking to Al Jazeera, Shaikh Faraj al Zuway said: "We will stop oil exports to Western countries within 24 hours" if the violence did not stop. The tribe lives south of Benghazi, which has seen the worst of the deadly violence in recent days.

Akram Al-Warfalli, a leading figure in the Al Warfalla tribe, one of Libya's biggest, told the network: "We tell the brother (Gaddafi), well he's no longer a brother, we tell him to leave the country." The tribe lives south of Tripoli.

Protests have also reportedly broken out in other cities, including Bayda, Derna, Tobruk and Misrata - and anti-Gaddafi graffiti adorns the walls of several cities.

Anti-government protesters in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi have reportedly seized army vehicles and weapons amid worsening turmoil in the African nation.

A local witness said that a section of the troops had joined the protesters on Sunday as chaos swept the streets of the city, worst hit by the uprising against Muammar Gaddafi's 42-year old rule.

Mohamed, a doctor from Al Jalaa hospital in Benghazi, confirmed to Al Jazeera that members of the military had sided with the protesters.

"We are still receiving serious injuries, I can confirm 13 deaths in our hospital. However, the good news is that people are cheering and celebrating outside after receiving news that the army is siding with the people," he said.

"But there is still a brigade that is against the demonstrators. For the past three days demonstrators have been shot at by this brigade, called Al-Sibyl brigade."

The witness reports came on a day in which local residents told Al Jazeera that at least 200 people had died in days of unrest in Benghazi alone. The New York-based Human Rights Watch on Sunday put the countrywide death toll at 173. The rights group said its figure was "conservative".
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 02:18:32 AM
Robert Fisk in Manama: Bahrain – an uprising on the verge of revolution

The protesters who are calling for an end to royal rule are in no mood to compromise


Monday, 21 February 2011

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/robert-fisk-in-manama-bahrain-ndash-an--uprising-on-the-verge-of-revolution-2220639.html

Bahrain is not Egypt. Bahrain is not Tunisia. And Bahrain is not Libya or Algeria or Yemen. True, the tens of thousands gathering again yesterday at the Pearl roundabout – most of them Shia but some of them Sunni Muslims – dressed themselves in Bahraini flags, just as the Cairo millions wore Egyptian flags in Tahrir Square.


But this miniature sultanist kingdom is not yet experiencing a revolution. The uprising of the country's 70 per cent – or is it 80 per cent? – Shia population is more a civil rights movement than a mass of republican rebels, but Crown Prince Salman bin Hamad al-Khalifa had better meet their demands quickly if he doesn't want an insurrection.

Indeed, the calls for an end to the entire 200-year-old Khalifa family rule in Bahrain are growing way ahead of the original aims of this explosion of anger: an elected prime minister, a constitutional monarchy, an end to discrimination. The cries of disgust at the Khalifas are much louder, the slogans more incendiary; and the vast array of supposedly opposition personalities talking to the Crown Prince is far behind the mood of the crowds who were yesterday erecting makeshift homes – tented, fully carpeted, complete with tea stalls and portable lavatories – in the very centre of Manama.

The royal family would like them to leave but they have no intention of doing so. Yesterday, thousands of employees of the huge Alba aluminium plant marched to the roundabout to remind King Hamad and the Crown Prince that a powerful industrial and trade union movement now lies behind this sea of largely Shia protesters.

Yet Crown Prince Salman talks more about stability, calm, security and "national cohesion" than serious electoral and constitutional reform. Is he trying to "do a Mubarak" and make promises – genuine ones for the moment, perhaps, but kingly pledges do tend to fade with "stability" and time – which will not be met?

In an interview with CNN, he acknowledged the Belfast parallels, exclaiming that "what we don't want to do, like in Northern Ireland, is to descend into militia warfare or sectarianism". But the crazed shooting of the Bahraini army on Thursday evening – 50 wounded, three critically, one already pronounced brain dead – was a small-size Bloody Sunday and it didn't take long for the original civil rights movement in Northern Ireland to be outrun by a new IRA. Clearly, the royal family has been shocked at the events of the last week. Sultan al-Khalifa's admission that "this is not the Bahrain I know, I never thought I would see the day that something like this would happen" proves as much. But his words suggest that this huge manifestation of public fury was merely provoked by television pictures of the Tunisian and Egyptian revolutions. For the record, the Shia rebellion against the country's Sunni rulers has been going on for years, with hundreds of political prisoners tortured in four prisons in and around Manama, their tormentors often from the Jordanian army – just as many Bahraini soldiers come from the Punjab and Baluchistan in Pakistan. Yesterday, there were repeated demands for the release of political prisoners, banners carrying photographs of young men who are still in jail years after their original sentencing: they run into the hundreds.

Then there are the disturbing stories of the refrigerated trucks which reportedly took dozens of corpses for secret burial, perhaps in Saudi Arabia. These could be part of the carapace of rumour that has settled over the events of the past few days, but now some of the names of the disappeared – men who were present at the shootings near the Pearl roundabout last week – are known.

Twelve of their names have just been released. So where is 14-year-old Ahmed Salah Issa, Hossein Hassan Ali, aged 18, Ahmed Ali Mohsen, 25 and Badria Abda Ali, a woman of unknown age? And where is Hani Mohamed Ali, 27, Mahdi al-Mahousi, 24, Mohamed Abdullah, 18, Hamed Abdullah al-Faraj, 21, Fadel Jassem, 45, and Hossein Salman, 48? English residents of a nearby apartment block were warned before the shooting that if they took photographs of the soldiers, they would be shot.

Hassan Ali Radhi, the youngest of the 18 Bahrain Shia MPs, agrees that there is an increasing gap now between demonstrators and the official political opposition that is being sought out by Crown Prince Salman.

"We are waiting for an initiative from the Crown Prince," he told me. "He has not mentioned reform or constitutional monarchy and a fully elected parliament. If people have a properly elected government, including the prime minister, they will blame their representatives if things go wrong. Now, they blame the King.

"What we are suggesting is a removal of the barriers between the people and the ruling family. When Hillary Clinton came to Bahrain, I told her that we don't want to see the US 5th Fleet in Bahrain [its military headquarters] as an obstacle to change, but currently, Bahrain is the worst strategic ally for the US."

The head of the Alba factory trade union, Ali Bin Ali – who is a Sunni – warned that his members could go on strike if they wanted to. "Now that people have been shot down on the roads, we will be political," he said.

Which, of course, is not what the Crown Prince wants to hear.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 21, 2011, 07:33:26 AM
Tony I really struggle to understand your sarcastic comments

The civil rights marches here in the 60s would have benefitted massively from the internet in terms of giving them a voice on the world providing a better perspective on the issues and their demands rather than state tv getting most of the say beyond these shores

Why does folk commenting on the situation annoy you? If it was a meaningless soccer thread i could understand but this is global politics ffs
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on February 21, 2011, 09:16:17 AM
Tony I really struggle to understand your sarcastic comments

The civil rights marches here in the 60s would have benefitted massively from the internet in terms of giving them a voice on the world providing a better perspective on the issues and their demands rather than state tv getting most of the say beyond these shores

Why does folk commenting on the situation annoy you? If it was a meaningless soccer thread i could understand but this is global politics ffs

have to agree with Skull Tony, if you aren't interested in either side as you say, why not just ignore it, no one says they can solve it by discussing it but a lot of people are genuinely interested in the region and it's politics and the domino affect it could have through to the west.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Minder on February 21, 2011, 10:19:06 AM
I would say Jeffrey Donaldson is watching events unfold in Libya with a certain amount of trepidation.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 11:01:45 AM
I would say Jeffrey Donaldson is watching events unfold in Libya with a certain amount of trepidation.

As Jeffrey is a friend of mine on facebook, I went onto his page there to have a look and see if he had anything to say.
Someone had asked him about Libya, and what it meant for the compensation he is seeking, and this was his reply.

Jeffrey Donaldson Hi Chris, the legal team representing the victims have been in ongoing negotiation with the Libyan Government but to date, a settlement of the claims has not been reached. It is hard to say what the impact of the current unrest will be. ...If a new government were put in place, would they be more amenable to a settlement of the claims and to make money available to help the innocent victims of IRA violence? I think a lot will depend on the willingness of our own UK Government to give more support to the campaign. They must apply greater pressure for a settlement. If that happens then it is possible to acheive a successful outcome.See More
11 hours ago · LikeUnlike
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 21, 2011, 11:20:10 AM
In 20 years will facebook have totally changed the meaning of the word "Friend"?  :-\
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 02:04:04 PM
If the news reports coming out of Libya are anything to go by, I can't see Gaddafi remaining
in power much longer. Possibly gone by the end of the week.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 21, 2011, 03:27:12 PM
The way forward
There's an opportunity for Middle Eastern states in the unrest engulfing the region

After the dramatic changes in Tunisia and Egypt in less than a month, the wildfire of political and economic unrest is now raging in Libya, Yemen, Iran, Algeria and even in Morocco. But it's Bahrain where things seem to have entered a critical phase, sparking alarm across the region.

All efforts and appeals by Bahrain's leadership to end the protests offering "unconditional and inclusive dialogue" are yet to produce results. Thousands of jubilant protesters returned to the Pearl Square, the focal point of anti-government demonstrations over the past couple of weeks, yesterday after riot police fired teargas and shotgun rounds before withdrawing.

Understandably, Gulf Cooperation Council states have thrown their weight behind Bahrain's leadership warning against outside meddling and foreign interference in the nation's internal affairs.

Given Bahrain's delicate sectarian equilibrium and the distinct possibility of outside forces trying to exploit it, GCC states have every reason to be concerned about the tiny but strategic Gulf state. The fact that Bahrain is a close US ally and home to the US Navy's Fifth Fleet only adds to the complexity of the whole issue.       

Meanwhile, the situation in Muammar Qaddafi's Libya is deteriorating fast. The US-based Human Rights Watch has claimed that over 100 people have been killed in the government crackdown on the widening protests. However, as Tunisia and Egypt have demonstrated, an iron-fisted approach is the last thing we need in the affected countries right now. Patience, empathy and a greater willingness by governments concerned to understand and address people's concerns and insecurities may be the way forward.

It is no coincidence that most countries affected by what is being termed as the Berlin Wall moment of the Middle East are those that have been battling unemployment, poverty and a strong dissident movement demanding greater political freedom. While economic deprivation, unemployment and lack of basics have been the driving force behind the current unrest across the region, there's no doubt that an absence of political empowerment and participation has also contributed to some of the anger that one sees on the streets today, from Sanaa to Tehran.

Just a cursory look at the Arab human development report issued by the United Nations after the upheavals in Tunisia and Egypt would offer an amazing insight into the issue at the heart of the current turmoil. While some states in the region have consciously invested in the infrastructure, education, health and well being of their people, most do not have a very impressive record in providing good governance and delivering on the basics like jobs, education and health. No wonder many of them today have their young people out in the streets angrily demanding change. Of course, Bahrain is an exception. Its problem is apparently more complex.

Others cannot afford to be complacent though. The Middle East can no longer remain stuck in a time warp while the world around it has moved on. Arab states will have to do more to address the economic problems and aspirations of their people. They must reform for their own sake, if nothing else.  Institutional ineptitude, internal conflicts and regional rifts cannot be an excuse for governments to neglect their fundamental responsibility — the well being of their people.  History will not forgive the Middle East's leaders and elites if they fail to respond to the winds of change sweeping the region. There's an opportunity for them in this unprecedented crisis.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 21, 2011, 04:08:51 PM
I think the people in these countries are setting an incredible example. In Bahrain they have stuck two fingers up to the dictator who offers reform. Its all or nothing it seems and only right too as we should know in this country how oppressors work - offers of reform are really methods to stall and slow and infiltrate to destroy the opposition. The best of luck to these people I say.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on February 21, 2011, 04:31:41 PM
I think the people in these countries are setting an incredible example. In Bahrain they have stuck two fingers up to the dictator who offers reform. Its all or nothing it seems and only right too as we should know in this country how oppressors work - offers of reform are really methods to stall and slow and infiltrate to destroy the opposition. The best of luck to these people I say.

Whilst any meaningful reform will take time to filter down to the masses I'm still very skeptical of how a lot of this will pan out in the foreseeable future.

There's too many powerful people with vested interests in these places like Egypt and Bahrain to let the status quo be changed in any meaningful way.

We'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on February 21, 2011, 04:48:14 PM
I think the people in these countries are setting an incredible example. In Bahrain they have stuck two fingers up to the dictator who offers reform. Its all or nothing it seems and only right too as we should know in this country how oppressors work - offers of reform are really methods to stall and slow and infiltrate to destroy the opposition. The best of luck to these people I say.

Whilst any meaningful reform will take time to filter down to the masses I'm still very skeptical of how a lot of this will pan out in the foreseeable future.

There's too many powerful people with vested interests in these places like Egypt and Bahrain to let the status quo be changed in any meaningful way.

We'll have to wait and see.

would have to agree

i see David Cameron is away out visiting Egypt this week, he didn't waste any time, no doubt to deal the boys what constitutes acceptable reform in the UK's eyes...
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on February 21, 2011, 04:57:35 PM
I'd have similar concerns JC

Who knows how it will pan out and what impact these insurrections will have further afield. The possibilities for global conflict are much higher now as I'm sure the different oil addicted power brokers try to assert their influence behind the scenes.

Oil has us all by the balls. We really need to be throwing Rnd into developing cost efficient sustainable alternatives.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 21, 2011, 05:43:30 PM






Mickey should have stuck to the acting ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: DrinkingHarp on February 21, 2011, 05:57:47 PM
CNN has just reported that Gadhafi has just declared war on his citizens, freaking lunatic.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: StGallsGAA on February 21, 2011, 07:32:10 PM
Uncle Sam should invade Lybia and bring liberation and democracy.  Worked in Iraq didn't it?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 21, 2011, 07:39:09 PM
RTÉ were reporting earlier that there are rumours he's decamped to Venezuela. Surely Chavez wouldn't provide a hidey-hole for a despot?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 21, 2011, 07:42:53 PM
RTÉ were reporting earlier that there are rumours he's decamped to Venezuela. Surely Chavez wouldn't provide a hidey-hole for a despot?

If chavez turns him down he could always try meath.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hereiam on February 21, 2011, 08:46:15 PM
Uncle Sam should invade Lybia and bring liberation and democracy.  Worked in Iraq didn't it?

Too early yet for that. They need to arm lybia a bit more so the whole thing isn't just one sided.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 09:00:20 PM
Well today seems to have turned into another bloodbath in Libya. Reports of helicopters and jets firing on the people, killing scores of people. Depending on various reports, it seems over 200 people have been killed today, bringing the total now killed to over 500 in 5 days.

Gaddafi has turned on his people in a ruthless fashion, and there is certainly no way back for him and his family now. Numerous ministers have now disowned him and resigned, and 2 senior air force generals defected to Malta in fighter jets!

BP and Shell have apparently abandoned their offices and fled, and others are scrambling to get flights out. Turkey sent in a plane today, and it had to turn back without permission to land.

Egypt have opened their borders to let anyone needing mediacl attention reach hospitals, and have sent aid convoys in. Hospitals are struggling to treat the wounded, and blood supplies are running out.

Many rumors are suggesting Gaddafi has fled to South America, however, there is no confirmation just yet, and Venezuala have denied that he is en route.

The only place Gaddafi needs to go to is the Hague to face crimes against humanity. He should also be joined by Ben Ali, Hosni Mubarak, Tony Blair, George Bush, and practically every former Israeli Prime Minister.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 10:38:39 PM
As Libyans die, a New Jersey town subsidizes Gaddafi

By SHMULEY BOTEACH 
02/21/2011 23:37

http://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Article.aspx?id=209267

Snipers are picking protesters off from rooftops, and goons are mowing them down in the streets. But in Englewood, the Libyan flag continues to fly high.
 
As Libya burns and as the foundation of its brutal 40- year-old regime shakes and shudders, it is not just the thuggish family of tyrant Muammar Gaddafi who should be worried. It is also the many Westerners who collaborated to keep him in power.

There’s a rekonin’ a comin’ for all those who did deals with the Gaddafi regime, whose morality vanished in the face of his black-gold billions, who – in the words of Bob Dylan – closed their eyes and pretended not to see the brutality of one of the cruelest governments on earth.

Many are known to us already, like BP which four years ago signed a $900 million oil exploration deal with Gaddafi. There are the British ministers who gave Gaddafi advice as to how to have the Lockerbie bomber, Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, freed as he made clear when he publicly thanked Gordon Brown and Queen Elizabeth after the mass murderer’s release. “This step,” he said, “is in the interest of relations between the two countries... and of the personal friendship between me and them, and will be positively reflected for sure in all areas of cooperation between the two countries.”

Most infamous is the Scottish government and its justice minister Kenny MacAskill, who released Megrahi (who continues to live in Tripoli, but perhaps not so peacefully now that his sponsor’s government is teetering).

Others who have worked with Gaddafi are not as famous but have been mentioned in the media, like Matthew Beckerman, the Jewish head of Natural Selection, who accepted a $100 million investment from the tyrant’s son.

AND THEN there are those who stood by, and now continue to stand by, as Libya burns, like my own home town of Englewood, New Jersey, which was the site of a major battle in September 2009 when Gaddafi, who owns the home next door to mine, tried to pitch a tent and move in for a few weeks. Our community came together and pushed him out. But the house, an official residence of Libya’s ambassador to the UN, remains. It is sovereign Libyan territory and the ambassador, whose boss reportedly stole tens of billions of dollars from the Libyan people, lives there tax free.

We, the residents of Englewood, pay for his trash removal, police protection and other basic services.

My city allows this shameful state of affairs. There has not been a lawsuit to try to push the Libyans out, or get them to at least pay taxes in almost 30 years! When Gaddafi withdrew and I continued the fight against the Libyan mission, Congressman Steve Rothman, who has not had a serious challenger in 14 years, first told the media: “I hope everyone will be appropriately good neighbors.”

Later, he took the unbelievable step of issuing a threepage press release attacking me and defending the Libyans’ right to remain in Englewood based on agreements between them and the State Department that were brokered by Rothman himself when he was Englewood’s mayor. I responded in print by reminding Rothman that he represents the hard-working citizens of New Jersey, and not the oil-rich dictator in Tripoli.

Englewood garnered world acclaim when it pushed Gaddafi out. Now our community is utterly silent as Libya burns. Brave Libyan citizens are being murdered in the streets. The number of dead is growing by the day. Habib al-Obaidi, head of the intensive care unit at the main Al- Jalae hospital, spoke of the bodies of 50 people, most killed by gunshots, being brought in on Sunday afternoon alone. “The problem is not the number of those killed,” he said, “but how they were killed. One of the victims was obliterated – after being hit by an RPG to the abdomen.”

That’s right. The people of New Jersey, which already saw 30 of its citizens murdered among the 270 who were on Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, are subsidizing the diplomatic mission of a government that fires rocket propelled grenades against nonviolent protesters.

Snipers are picking them off from rooftops, and Gaddafi’s goons are mowing them down in the streets. But in Englewood the Libyan flag continues to fly high. I see it every day right across my yard. It makes me sick to my stomach. That our mayor, city council and police allow it without a single legal challenge is a disgrace to a onceproud city.

I launched a lawsuit against the Libyans in federal court, only to see it quashed due to their diplomatic immunity.

Imagine that. A terrorist-funding state that blows up airliners and kills its people in front of the world’s cameras can live tax-free in an American suburb, where there it has no diplomatic interest, because of diplomatic immunity.

I am writing this column from Boston, where I am attending a family wedding. I took my children to the site of the Boston Massacre, where on March 5, 1770 British soldiers fired into a crowd of a hundreds of colonists, killing five.The event was the spark that would ignite the American revolution.

As it happens, we Americans could not have achieved our freedom entirely on our own. The French were instrumental in helping us defeat the British, and it is a lesson we all ought to remember as Arabs throughout the Middle East rise with great courage to demand the same simple freedoms for which the American patriots fought. They are our brothers, and require our assistance. And this is especially true of those who are fighting to defeat the man Ronald Reagan accurately called “the mad dog of the Middle East.”

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 21, 2011, 11:11:50 PM
When tyrants want tear gas, the UK has always been happy to oblige

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/20/teargas-for-tyrants

When Robin Cook tried to tighten rules on British arms sales to dodgy regimes in 1997 he was told by Tony Blair's team to grow up. Planned changes to criteria for weapons exports were so watered down that they made no inroads into the trade. Cook's professed "ethical dimension" to foreign policy was stillborn.

Downing Street had been heavily lobbied, but it needed no convincing. This is one area where the boardroom and the unions are in harmony, and one that does not change whatever the government. Britain is a market leader in fighter jets, electric batons, sub-machine guns and teargas. Why add to the jobless total for the sake of morals? If we don't sell the kit someone else will.

The announcement, therefore, of a revoking of licences to Bahrain and Libya should be taken with a pinch of salt; I predict that British firms will be back at it as soon as the coast is clear.

The coalition government's commendable, but limited improvements in civil liberties at home have not been replicated in foreign policy, which is brazenly mercantilist. Go forth and flog Britain's wares is the message. The notorious Export Credits Guarantee Department, responsible for some of the most economically foolhardy and unethical business deals of the past 20 years, has been boosted. From arms sales to Saudi Arabia and Indonesia, to oil and gas pipelines in central Asia, to mega-dams in sub-Saharan Africa, the ECGD has backed projects that have been implicated in corruption, environmental destruction and human rights abuses.

At the weekend, the UK arms industry descended on Abu Dhabi for Idex, the region's most important weapons fair. A tenth of all the global exhibitors are from Britain. Gerald Howarth, the minister leading the delegation, declared that "we have ambitious plans".

The most unequivocal message since the election was made by Peter Luff, the defence equipment minister, who told a defence show in June: "There will be a very, very, very heavy ministerial commitment to arms sales. There is a sense that in the past we were rather embarrassed about exporting defence products. There is no such embarrassment in this government."

Indeed there is not. The regimes currently using brute force to put down pro-democracy protests are all longstanding partners of the UK. As the Campaign Against Arms Trade notes on Bahrain: in 2010, equipment approved for export included teargas and crowd control ammunition, equipment for the use of aircraft cannons, assault rifles, shotguns, sniper rifles and submachine guns. No requests for licences were refused.

Algeria, Egypt and Saudia Arabia have provided rich pickings for UK arms exporters. Of all the bilateral arrangements of recent years, perhaps the most despicable is the one with Libya. Colonel Gaddafi morphed from terrorist sympathiser to friend of the west, which then turned a blind eye to his internal repression. Libya is regarded as a priority partner, with the UK boasting the largest pavilion at the Libya's arms fair.

CAAT figures show that in the third quarter of 2010, equipment approved for export to Libya included wall-and-door breaching projectile launchers, crowd control ammunition, small arms ammunition and teargas/irritant ammunition. No requests for licences were refused.

Earlier this month, the trade minister, Lord Green, announced that ministers will be "held accountable" if companies fail to secure deals and foreign investors favour Britain's economic rivals. Beside him was business secretary, Vince Cable.

In opposition the Lib Dems were vocal about arms sales. In government they have grown silent. In January 2009, Nick Clegg wrote on these pages that Britain should stop supplying Israel following its bombardment of Gaza. He made a broader point: the UK should not supply weapons to countries involved in external aggression or internal repression. I have heard nothing significant from Clegg on the issue since he became deputy prime minister.

He may believe that if he spoke out, he might suffer a similar fate to Cook. There is too much riding on an industry that abets authoritarian regimes, while providing rich profits for UK firms and jobs. In the current economic climate, who would stand in their way?

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 12:26:01 AM
Cruel. Vainglorious. Steeped in blood. And now, surely, after more than four decades of terror and oppression, on his way out?

Robert Fisk on Muammar Gaddafi, tyrant of Tripoli
Tuesday, 22 February 2011

So even the old, paranoid, crazed fox of Libya – the pallid, infantile, droop-cheeked dictator from Sirte, owner of his own female praetorian guard, author of the preposterous Green Book, who once announced he would ride to a Non-Aligned Movement summit in Belgrade on his white charger – is going to ground. Or gone. Last night, the man I first saw more than three decades ago, solemnly saluting a phalanx of black-uniformed frogmen as they flappered their way across the sulphur-hot tarmac of Green Square on a torrid night in Tripoli during a seven-hour military parade, appeared to be on the run at last, pursued – like the dictators of Tunis and Cairo – by his own furious people.

The YouTube and Facebook pictures told the story with a grainy, fuzzed reality, fantasy turned to fire and burning police stations in Benghazi and Tripoli, to corpses and angry, armed men, of a woman with a pistol leaning from a car door, of a crowd of students – were they readers of his literature? – breaking down a concrete replica of his ghastly book. Gunfire and flames and cellphone screams; quite an epitaph for a regime we all, from time to time, supported.

And here, just to lock our minds on to the brain of truly eccentric desire, is a true story. Only a few days ago, as Colonel Muammar Gaddafi faced the wrath of his own people, he met with an old Arab acquaintance and spent 20 minutes out of four hours asking him if he knew of a good surgeon to lift his face. This is – need I say it about this man? – a true story. The old boy looked bad, sagging face, bloated, simply "magnoon" (mad), a comedy actor who had turned to serious tragedy in his last days, desperate for the last make-up lady, the final knock on the theatre door.

In the event, Saif al-Islam al-Gaddafi, faithful understudy for his father, had to stand in for him on stage as Benghazi and Tripoli burned, threatening "chaos and civil war" if Libyans did not come to heel. "Forget oil, forget gas," this wealthy nincompoop announced. "There will be civil war."

Above the beloved son's head on state television, a green Mediterranean appeared to ooze from his brain. Quite an obituary, when you come to think of it, of nearly 42 years of Gaddafi rule.

Not exactly King Lear, who would "do such things – what they are, yet I know not, but they shall be the terrors of the earth"; more like another dictator in a different bunker, summoning up non-existent armies to save him in his capital, ultimately blaming his own people for his calamity. But forget Hitler. Gaddafi was in a class of his own, Mickey Mouse and Prophet, Batman and Clark Gable and Anthony Quinn playing Omar Mukhtar in Lion of the Desert, Nero and Mussolini (the 1920s version) and, inevitably – the greatest actor of them all – Muammar Gaddafi. He wrote a book – appropriately titled in his present unfortunate circumstances – called Escape to Hell and Other Stories and demanded a one state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict which would be called "Israeltine".

Shortly thereafter, he threw half the Palestinian residents of Libya out of his country and told them to walk home to their lost land. He stormed out of the Arab League because he deemed it irrelevant – a brief moment of sanity there, one has to admit – and arrived in Cairo for a summit, deliberately confusing a lavatory door with that of the conference chamber until led aside by the Caliph Mubarak who had a thin, suffering smile on his face.

And if what we are witnessing is a true revolution in Libya, then we shall soon be able – unless the Western embassy flunkies get there first for a spot of serious, desperate looting – to rifle through the Tripoli files and read the Libyan version of Lockerbie and the 1989 UTA Flight 722 plane bombing; and of the Berlin disco bombings, for which a host of Arab civilians and Gaddafi's own adopted daughter were killed in America's 1986 revenge raids; and of his IRA arms supplies and of his assassination of opponents at home and abroad, and of the murder of a British policewoman, and of his invasion of Chad and the deals with British oil magnates; and (woe betide us all at this point) of the truth behind the grotesque deportation of the soon-to-expire al-Megrahi, the supposed Lockerbie bomber too ill to die, who may, even now, reveal some secrets which the Fox of Libya – along with Gordon Brown and the Attorney General for Scotland, for all are equal on the Gaddafi world stage – would rather we didn't know about.

And who knows what the Green Book Archives – and please, O insurgents of Libya, do NOT in thy righteous anger burn these priceless documents – will tell us about Lord Blair's supine visit to this hideous old man; an addled figure whose "statesmanlike" gesture (the words, of course, come from that old Marxist fraud Jack Straw, when the author of Escape to Hell promised to hand over the nuclear nick-nacks which his scientists had signally failed to turn into a bomb) allowed our own faith-based Leader to claim that, had we not smitten the Saddamites with our justified anger because of their own non-existent weapons of mass destruction, Libya, too, would have joined the Axis of Evil.

Alas, Lord Blair paid no heed to the Gaddafi "whoops" factor, a unique ability to pose as a sane man while secretly believing oneself – like miss-a-heart-beat Omar Suleiman in Cairo – to be a light bulb. Only days after the Blair handshake, the Saudis accused Gaddafi of plotting – and the details, by the way, were horribly convincing – to murder Britain's ally, King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. But why be surprised when the man most feared and now most mocked and hated by his own vengeful people wrote, in the aforesaid Escape to Hell that Christ's crucifixion was a historical falsehood and that – as here I say again, a faint ghost of truth does very occasionally adhere to Gaddafi's ravings – a German "Fourth Reich" was lording it over Britain and America? Reflecting on death in this thespian work, he asks if the Grim Reaper is male or female. The leader of the Great Libyan Arab People's Popular Masses, needless to say, seemed to favour the latter.

As with all Middle East stories, a historical narrative precedes the dramatic pageant of Gaddafi's fall. For decades, his opponents tried to kill him; they rose up as nationalists, as prisoners in his torture chambers, as Islamists on the streets of – yes! – Benghazi. And he smote them all down. Indeed, this venerable city had already achieved its martyrdom status in 1979 when Gaddafi publicly hanged dissident students in Benghazi's main square. I am not even mentioning the 1993 disappearance of Libyan human rights defender Mansour al-Kikhiya while attending a Cairo conference after complaining about Gaddafi's execution of political prisoners. And it is important to remember that, 42 years ago, our own Foreign Office welcomed Gaddafi's coup against the effete and corrupt King Idriss because, said our colonial mandarins, it was better to have a spick-and-span colonel in charge of an oil state than a relic of imperialism. Indeed, they showed almost as much enthusiasm as they did for this decaying despot when Lord Blair arrived in Tripoli decades later for the laying on of hands.

As a Libyan opposition group told us years ago – we didn't care about these folks then, of course – "Gaddafi would have us believe he is at the vanguard of every human development that has emerged during his lifetime".

All true, if now reduced to sub-Shakespearean farce. My kingdom for a facelift. At that non-aligned summit in Belgrade, Gaddafi even flew in a planeload of camels to provide him with fresh milk. But he was not allowed to ride his white charger. Tito saw to that. Now there was a real dictator.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 22, 2011, 01:12:49 AM
Uncle Sam should invade Lybia and bring liberation and democracy.  Worked in Iraq didn't it?

Aye, I bet you wish they had remained neutral in WW2 as well, probably not.

Where are the Un in all of this, surely it is their job to protect the masses from genocide, no wait, that cant be right, sure they let people die by the thousands in Africa.

Some of you clampetts blame the US for everything and there have been quite a few on here talking up Ghadaffi over the years, what do ye think now lads.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 22, 2011, 05:02:56 AM
Uncle Sam should invade Lybia and bring liberation and democracy.  Worked in Iraq didn't it?

Aye, I bet you wish they had remained neutral in WW2 as well, probably not.

Where are the Un in all of this, surely it is their job to protect the masses from genocide, no wait, that cant be right, sure they let people die by the thousands in Africa.

Some of you clampetts blame the US for everything and there have been quite a few on here talking up Ghadaffi over the years, what do ye think now lads.
Yea and strange to see Chavez' name crop up... sure he has been quite highly regarded here along with Castro/quevara and the likes
amongst the humanitarians for quite a while now what with them being quite the beacons for democracy throughout the ages and all ::)

Bottom line is there are some here that can't seem to make up their minds between good dictators and not so good ones  :D
which all seems OK by all accounts as long as the end result is getting the boot in to Uncle Sam, cause that's clearly what seems important here   :o Haters
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on February 22, 2011, 05:33:32 AM
bit rich there TO..... the US has seemed to have the same problem (one recent example being musharraf).... the difference is the US decision effect countless lifes while on here people can only comment on it. Funny how you seem more concerned about comments on here then the effects ill fated US foreign Policy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Aerlik on February 22, 2011, 05:42:23 AM

Bottom line is there are some here that can't seem to make up their minds between good dictators and not so good ones  :D

Namely?

And how do you view Dermott McMurrough now when we're at it?  Hero or villain?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 22, 2011, 09:25:25 AM
Ghadaffi appeared on Libyan TV last night to say he was still in the country and not in Venezuela as reported. He also declared war on his own civilians but heh lets ignore that and muddy the waters instead by talking about Chavez!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 22, 2011, 09:56:01 AM
Bottom line is there are some here that   the USA can't seem to make up their minds between good dictators and not so good ones 
which all seems OK by all accounts as long as the end result is getting the boot in to Uncle Sam what the USA wants, cause that's clearly what seems important here.

Fixed that for you.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Carmen Stateside on February 22, 2011, 10:21:28 AM
Bottom line is there are some here that   the USA can't seem to make up their minds between good dictators and not so good ones 
which all seems OK by all accounts as long as the end result is getting the boot in to Uncle Sam what the USA wants, cause that's clearly what seems important here.

Fixed that for you.

This.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 10:52:43 AM

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cameron-attacked-for-egypt-visit-with-defence-sales-team-in-tow-2221695.html

David Cameron faced charges of hypocrisy last night after he arrived for a tour of the Gulf with some senior figures from the defence industry.

His long-planned visit was originally to bang the drum for British business in export markets, but has become dominated by the turmoil in the Middle East. After leaving Britain early, Mr Cameron became the first world leader to visit Egypt since President Hosni Mubarak was toppled. The Prime Minister is also preparing, in a speech to the Kuwaiti parliament today, to urge governments across the region to respond to calls for reform.

Despite the change in his agenda, Mr Cameron is still taking a large delegation from business and industry, including eight representatives of defence firms attempting to secure contracts in the Gulf states. Among them are: Ian King, chief executive of BAE Systems; Alastair Bisset, group international director at QinetiQ; and Rob Watson, regional director of Rolls-Royce.


Meanwhile, the Defence minister Gerald Howarth is in Abu Dhabi, where he is leading Britain's biggest ever delegation to an international arms fair. More than 100 UK firms are showcasing their products at the International Defence Exhibition and Conference, which is aimed at governments in the Middle East and North Africa.

Yasmin Khan, senior campaigns officer at the charity War on Want, called for the Prime Minister's "shameful" and "ill-timed" trip to be cancelled. She said: "It is deplorable that David Cameron is seeking to exploit the crisis by promoting sales of weapons and torture equipment to the region."

Sarah Waldron, campaigns co-ordinator at Campaign Against the Arms Trade, said: "The UK Government prioritises the interests of arms companies – it makes a mockery of claiming to have a rigorous approach to arms sales. People in the Middle East are dying in an attempt to get democracy and yet Cameron and other ministers are still selling weapons used to oppress them."

The Government last week revoked a series of export licences to Libya and Bahrain amid fears the equipment – including tear gas and pepper sprays – could be used for internal repression.

Mr Cameron in Cairo condemned as "completely appalling" the suppression of protests in Libya. He said: "I call on them even at this late stage to stop. People's aspirations for greater democracy, for greater freedom, for greater rights should be met with reform, not repression."

Meanwhile, in London the Libyan ambassador, Omar Jelban, was summoned to the Foreign Office to be told "in the strongest terms" of the Government's "absolute condemnation" of the use of lethal force against protesters. William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, promised that the Government would give "every possible assistance" to the estimated 3,500 Britons in Libya in helping them to leave the country.

Yet Mr Cameron was forced to defend the inclusion of defence industry representatives in the travelling party, arguing that it was "very much in Britain's interests" that the UK continued to promote defence relationships with countries in the region.

He said: "Britain has a range of strong defence relationships with countries in the region. I seem to remember we spent a lot of effort and indeed life in defending and helping to defend Kuwait.

"So the idea that Britain should not have defence relationships with some of these countries I don't understand. It is quite right that we do.

"We have some of the toughest rules on export licences and exports of arms anywhere in the world. Everything has to meet those rules."

The packed agenda saw Mr Cameron hold talks with the head of the armed forces supreme council, Defence Minister Mohamed Tantawi, and Prime Minister Ahmed Shafiq – deliberately steering clear of the Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt's popular Islamist group.

Meanwhile, the Foreign Office last night dropped its advice against "all but essential" travel to Cairo, Alexandria and Suez. A spokesman said the situation in Egypt was "much improved" following Mr Mubarak's departure.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on February 22, 2011, 10:57:45 AM
didn't the PSNI send boys out to Libya a while back to train them on crowd control and no I am not taking the piss, i think it caused an almighty row at the time
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Ulick on February 22, 2011, 11:05:12 AM
You're right. I'd  forgotten all about that:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8262362.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8262362.stm)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 11:07:03 AM
Ghadaffi appeared on Libyan TV last night to say he was still in the country and not in Venezuela as reported. He also declared war on his own civilians but heh lets ignore that and muddy the waters instead by talking about Chavez!

Is this a Tuk Tuk, or a Popemobile that Gaddafi is driving?


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 11:23:21 AM
Leader Of Egyptian Unions To Wisconsin Protesters: ‘We Stand With You As You Stood With Us’  

One of the most underreported stories about the pro-democracy movement in Egypt was the role of labor unions in the demonstrations, many of which were protesting against neoliberal right-wing economic policies just as much as they were protesting against the Mubarak dictatorship. During the uprising in that country, AFL-CIO president Richard Trumka praised the role of organized labor, saying, “The people’s movement for democracy in Egypt and the role unions are playing for freedom and worker rights inspires us and will not be forgotten.”

Now, as tens of thousands of union members and other Wisconsin residents are taking to the streets to protest against Gov. Scott Walker’s (R) attempt to abolish collective bargaining rights for most public workers, a leader of Egypt’s largest umbrella group of independent labor unions is praising the Wisconsin movement. In a videotaped statement, Kamal Abbas, the General Coordinator of the Centre for Trade Unions and Workers Services, tells the Wisconsin protesters, “We stand with you as you stood with us.” He says “no one believed” that the revolution against the Mubarak regime would succeed, yet they were able to bring the dictator down within 18 days. He encourages demonstrators to stay strong, saying, “Don’t give up on your rights. Victory always belongs to the people who stand firm and demand their just rights”:

I am speaking to you from a place very close to Tahrir Square in Cairo, “Liberation Square”, which was the heart of the Revolution in Egypt. This is the place were many of our youth paid with their lives and blood in the struggle for our just rights. From this place, I want you to know that we stand with you as you stood with us. [...]

No one believed that our revolution could succeed against the strongest dictatorship in the region. But in 18 days the revolution achieved the victory of the people. When the working class of Egypt joined the revolution on 9 and 10 February, the dictatorship was doomed and the victory of the people became inevitable. We want you to know that we stand on your side. Stand firm and don’t waiver. Don’t give up on your rights. Victory always belongs to the people who stand firm and demand their just rights.

Last week, Rep. Tammy Baldwin (D-WI) said there are “similarities” between the movements in Egypt and Wisconsin, in that “that people are wanting to be heard, and they are taking direct action.” Additionally, Ian’s on State Street, a pizza place near the Wisconsin capitol building, has been taking orders from Egypt for Wisconsin activists. While the actions that Walker and Mubarak are taking are far from directly analogous, many demonstrators have taken to drawing satirical comparisons. Following Walker’s threat to call in the National Guard to deal with a labor strike, activists launched the site Mini Mubarak, humorously comparing the governor’s threat to the actions of the now-resigned Egyptian autocrat

http://thinkprogress.org/2011/02/21/leader-egyptian-unions-wisconsin/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 01:03:15 PM

It will take more than a tour of Occupied Palestine and Syria to improve Israels international image......

Chilean miners to visit Israel Wednesday

Tourism Ministry plans extensive tour for miners, hoping they will help improve Israel's image


Thirty-one of the 33 miners who were trapped for 68 days underground in Chile are due to arrive in Israel Wednesday for a week-long tour. "It won't be a circus," the Tourism Ministry vowed ahead of the long-awaited visit.

The ministry wants to use the heroes' visit to improve Israel's image in the world. The miners will be traveling with their wives, the local governor, and senior Chilean journalists.

Tourism Minister Stas Misezhnikov will welcome the miners at the airport, from where they will travel to Jerusalem for an afternoon press conference. Hosts say the tour will be of a spiritual character, allowing the miners to "give thanks" for their heroic rescue.

In Jerusalem, the party is set to visit the Old City, the Western Wall, the Knesset, Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum, and a number of churches. On Saturday they plan to tour Bethlehem, and then to get a taste of the Jerusalem nightlife.

Then, on Sunday, the miners plan to visit Masada and the Dead Sea after a special ceremony at the Presidential Residence. Throughout the visit they will also get to see Nazareth, Megiddo, the Golan Heights, Tiberias, and the Kinneret. A goodbye ceremony will be held in Tel Aviv.

The Palestinian Authority was outraged that the miners would not visit its territories as well, and the Palestinian foreign ministry said it would appeal to its Chilean counterpart to organize a tour of the West Bank.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4032020,00.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 22, 2011, 05:17:21 PM
Defiant Gaddafi refuses to quit amid Libya protests

Col Gaddafi said the world powers knew they could not unseat him Libyan leader Col Muammar Gaddafi has refused to stand down amid widespread anti-government protests which he said had tarnished the image of the country.

In his first major speech since unrest began last week, Col Gaddafi said the whole world looked up to Libya and that protests were "serving the devil".

Reading from the country's constitution, he said enemies of Libya would be executed.

Rights groups say nearly 300 have been killed in the violence so far.

A defiant and angry Col Gaddafi said that he had brought glory to Libya. As he had no official position in Libya from which to resign, he would remain the head of the revolution, he said.

He blamed the unrest on "cowards and traitors" who were seeking to portray Libya as a place of chaos and to "humiliate" Libyans.

Civil war threat
 
The protesters had been given drink and drugs, he said, frequently shouting and banging his fist on the table as the address continued.

He called on "those who love Muammar Gaddafi" to come on to the streets in support of him, telling them not to be afraid of the "gangs".

"Come out of your homes, attack them in their dens. Withdraw your children from the streets. They are drugging your children, they are making your children drunk and sending them to hell," he said.

"If matters require, we will use force, according to international law and the Libyan constitution," and warned that the country could descend into civil war or be occupied by the US if protests continued.

The BBC's Frank Gardner said it was an extraordinary speech even by Col Gaddafi's usual standards, full of theatrical defiance against almost everyone.

He appears completely divorced from reality, says our correspondent, saying that he had not authorised the army to use force, despite opposition statements that more than 500 people have been killed and more than 1,000 are missing.

Human Rights Watch said at least 62 bodies had been taken to hospital morgues since Sunday, in addition to the 233 people it said had been killed outside the capital previously.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12544624
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Trout on February 22, 2011, 05:26:33 PM
Saw a few Libyans that are protesting in London being interviewed on the telly there, they are a very shifty looking bunch.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tony Baloney on February 22, 2011, 06:05:44 PM
Saw a few Libyans that are protesting in London being interviewed on the telly there, they are a very shifty looking bunch.
You wouldn't need to stray too close to the Libyan Embassy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 23, 2011, 11:18:45 AM

Muammar Gaddafi told us last night that he had not even begun to use bullets against his enemies – a palpable lie – and "any use of force against the authority of the state shall be punished by death", in itself a palpable truth which Libyans knew all too well without the future tense of Gaddafi's threat.

On and on and on he ranted. Like everything Gaddafi, it was very impressive – but went on far too long.


He cursed the people of Benghazi who had already liberated their city – "just wait until the police return to restore order", this dessicated man promised without a smile. His enemies were Islamists, the CIA, the British and the "dogs" of the international press. Yes, we are always dogs, aren't we? I was long ago depicted in a Bahraini newspaper cartoon (Crown Prince, please note) as a rabid dog, worthy of liquidation. But like Gaddafi's speeches, that's par for the course. And then came my favourite bit of the whole Gaddafi exegesis last night: HE HADN'T EVEN BEGUN TO USE VIOLENCE YET!


So let's erase all the YouTubes and Facebooks and the shooting and blood and gouged corpses from Benghazi, and pretend it didn't happen. Let's pretend that the refusal to give visas to foreign correspondents has actually prevented us from hearing the truth. Gaddafi's claim that the protesters in Libya – the millions of demonstrators – "want to turn Libya into an Islamic state" is exactly the same nonsense that Mubarak peddled before the end in Egypt, the very same nonsense that Obama and La Clinton have suggested. Indeed, there were times last night when Gaddafi – in his vengefulness, his contempt for Arabs, for his own people – began to sound very like the speeches of Benjamin Netanyahu. Was there some contact between these two rogues, one wondered, that we didn't know about?


In many ways, Gaddafi's ravings were those of an old man, his fantasies about his enemies – "rats who have taken tablets" who included "agents of Bin Laden" – were as disorganised as the scribbled notes on the piece of paper he held in his right hand, let alone the green-covered volume of laws from which he kept quoting. It was not about love. It was about the threat of execution. "Damn those" trying to stir unrest against Libya. It was a plot, an international conspiracy. "Your children are dying – but for what?" He would fight "until the last drop of my blood with the Libyan people is behind me". America was the enemy (much talk of Fallujah), Israel was the enemy, Sadat was an enemy, colonial fascist Italy was the enemy. Among the heroes and friends was Gaddafi's grandfather, "who fell a martyr in 1911" against the Italian enemy.


Dressed in brown burnous and cap and gown, Gaddafi's appearance last night raised some odd questions. Having kept the international media – the "dogs" in question – out of Libya, he allowed the world to observe a crazed nation: YouTube and blogs of terrible violence versus state television pictures of an entirely unhinged dictator justifying what he had either not seen on YouTube or hadn't been shown. And there's an interesting question here: dictators and princes who let the international press into their countries – Messrs Ben Ali/Mubarak/Saleh/Prince Salman – are permitting it to film their own humiliation. Their reward is painful indeed. But sultans like Gaddafi who keep the journos out fare little different.


The hand-held immediacy of the mobile phone, the intimacy of sound and the crack of gunfire are in some ways more compelling than the edited, digital film of the networks. Exactly the same happened in Gaza when the Israelis decided, Gaddafi-like, to keep foreign journalists out of their 2009 bloodletting: the bloggers and YouTubers (and Al Jazeera) simply gave us a reality we didn't normally experience from the "professional" satellite boys. Perhaps, in the end, it takes a dictator with his own monopoly on cameras to tell the truth. "I will die as a martyr," Gaddafi said last night. Almost certainly true.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/robert-fisk/gaddafi-raved-and-cursed-but-he-faces-forces-he-cannot-control-15093357.html#ixzz1EmO7RgcN
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 23, 2011, 05:11:49 PM
Iranian naval vessels major provocation: Israel
By MARK LAVIE | AP

Published: Feb 22, 2011 22:09 Updated: Feb 22, 2011 22:09

JERUSALEM: As two Iranian warships sailed into the Mediterranean on Tuesday, an Israeli leader charged that Iran's goal was hegemony in the Middle East.

The ships exited the Suez Canal Tuesday afternoon. It was the first time Iran has sent warships through the canal since the 1979 revolution. Israeli leaders have called the move a provocation.

“The passage of the Iranian ships is part of the comprehensive struggle that Iran is conducting against the West for hegemony and control in the Middle East,” Vice Premier Silvan Shalom told an energy conference in Israel's southern resort of Eilat.

“The objective of the Iranian provocation is to signal to the leaders of the Arab world who the new leader is in the Middle East,” he said.

Iran and Israel are bitter enemies. Israel considers Iran a threat because of its nuclear program, missile development and frequent references by its leader to Israel's destruction. Iran also backs anti-Israel groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Despite the strong language, Israel was seen as unlikely to take action against the boats, which are expected to remain in international waters as they head toward Syria, past the Israeli coast.

Military analysts on Israeli TV news programs said the Iranian military vessel and its trailing supply ship do not pose a real threat to Israel.

Israeli security officials said that as long as the ships remain in international waters, there is nothing Israel can legally do. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Hardy on February 23, 2011, 06:17:56 PM
Iranian naval vessels major provocation: Israel
By MARK LAVIE | AP

Published: Feb 22, 2011 22:09 Updated: Feb 22, 2011 22:09

JERUSALEM: As two Iranian warships sailed into the Mediterranean on Tuesday, an Israeli leader charged that Iran's goal was hegemony in the Middle East.

The ships exited the Suez Canal Tuesday afternoon. It was the first time Iran has sent warships through the canal since the 1979 revolution. Israeli leaders have called the move a provocation.

“The passage of the Iranian ships is part of the comprehensive struggle that Iran is conducting against the West for hegemony and control in the Middle East,” Vice Premier Silvan Shalom told an energy conference in Israel's southern resort of Eilat.

“The objective of the Iranian provocation is to signal to the leaders of the Arab world who the new leader is in the Middle East,” he said.

Iran and Israel are bitter enemies. Israel considers Iran a threat because of its nuclear program, missile development and frequent references by its leader to Israel's destruction. Iran also backs anti-Israel groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Despite the strong language, Israel was seen as unlikely to take action against the boats, which are expected to remain in international waters as they head toward Syria, past the Israeli coast.

Military analysts on Israeli TV news programs said the Iranian military vessel and its trailing supply ship do not pose a real threat to Israel.

Israeli security officials said that as long as the ships remain in international waters, there is nothing Israel can legally do. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.



Since when has that been a consideration for them?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 23, 2011, 11:47:30 PM
Click on the following link for some footage that has been smuggled out of Libya, and passed onto a friend of mine who works for Press TV.

It is footage of soldiers who have been murdered by Gadaffi's mercenaries because they refused to kill protestors.

Before you click, I must warn you that this is not pretty, so if you are squeemish in any way, don't click.


http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150391419625262&oid=124004870965718&comments
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 12:42:07 AM
Tripoli: a city in the shadow of death

Gunfire in the suburbs – and fear, hunger and rumour in the capital Thousands race for last tickets out of a city sinking into anarchy


Robert Fisk, with the first dispatch from Libya's war-torn capital, reports


Thursday, 24 February 2011

Up to 15,000 men, women and children besieged Tripoli's international airport last night, shouting and screaming for seats on the few airliners still prepared to fly to Muammar Gaddafi's rump state, paying Libyan police bribe after bribe to reach the ticket desks in a rain-soaked mob of hungry, desperate families. Many were trampled as Libyan security men savagely beat those who pushed their way to the front.


Among them were Gaddafi's fellow Arabs, thousands of them Egyptians, some of whom had been living at the airport for two days without food or sanitation. The place stank of faeces and urine and fear. Yet a 45-minute visit into the city for a new airline ticket to another destination is the only chance to see Gaddafi's capital if you are a "dog" of the international press.

There was little sign of opposition to the Great Leader. Squads of young men with Kalashnikov rifles stood on the side roads next to barricades of upturned chairs and wooden doors. But these were pro-Gaddafi vigilantes – a faint echo of the armed Egyptian "neighbourhood guard" I saw in Cairo a month ago – and had pinned photographs of their leader's infamous Green Book to their checkpoint signs.

There is little food in Tripoli, and over the city there fell a blanket of drab, sullen rain. It guttered onto an empty Green Square and down the Italianate streets of the old capital of Tripolitania. But there were no tanks, no armoured personnel carriers, no soldiers, not a fighter plane in the air; just a few police and elderly men and women walking the pavements – a numbed populous. Sadly for the West and for the people of the free city of Benghazi, Libya's capital appeared as quiet as any dictator would wish.

But this is an illusion. Petrol and food prices have trebled; entire towns outside Tripoli have been torn apart by fighting between pro- and anti-Gaddafi forces. In the suburbs of the city, especially in the Noufreen district, militias fought for 24 hours on Sunday with machine guns and pistols, a battle the Gadaffi forces won. In the end, the exodus of expatriates will do far more than street warfare to bring down the regime.

I was told that at least 30,000 Turks, who make up the bulk of the Libyan construction and engineering industry, have now fled the capital, along with tens of thousands of other foreign workers. On my own aircraft out of Tripoli, an evacuation flight to Europe, there were Polish, German, Japanese and Italian businessmen, all of whom told me they had closed down major companies in the past week. Worse still for Gaddafi, the oil, chemical and uranium fields of Libya lie to the south of "liberated" Benghazi. Gaddafi's hungry capital controls only water resources, so a temporary division of Libya, which may have entered Gaddafi's mind, would not be sustainable. Libyans and expatriates I spoke to yesterday said they thought he was clinically insane, but they expressed more anger at his son, Saif al-Islam. "We thought Saif was the new light, the 'liberal'", a Libyan businessman sad to me. "Now we realise he is crazier and more cruel than his father."

The panic that has now taken hold in what is left of Gaddafi's Libya was all too evident at the airport. In the crush of people fighting for tickets, one man, witnessed by an evacuated Tokyo car-dealer, was beaten so viciously on the head that "his face fell apart".

Talking to Libyans in Tripoli and expatriates at the airport, it is clear that neither tanks nor armour were used in the streets of Tripoli. Air attacks targeted Benghazi and other towns, but not the capital. Yet all spoke of a wave of looting and arson by Libyans who believed that with the fall of Benghazi, Gaddafi was finished and the country open to anarchy.

The centre of the city was largely closed up. All foreign offices have been shut including overseas airlines, and every bakery I saw was shuttered. Rumours abound that members of Gaddafi's family are trying to flee abroad. Although William Hague's ramblings about Gaddafi's flight to Venezuela have been disproved, I spoke to a number of Libyans who believed that Burkina Faso might be his only viable retreat. Two nights ago, a Libyan private jet approached Beirut airport with a request to land but was refused permission when the crew declined to identify their eight passengers. And last night, a Libyan Arab Airlines flight reported by Al Jazeera to be carrying Gaddafi's daughter, Aisha, was refused permission to land in Malta.

Gaddafi is blamed by Shia Muslims in Lebanon, Iraq and Iran for the murder of Imam Moussa Sadr, a supposedly charismatic divine who unwisely accepted an invitation to visit Gaddafi in 1978 and, after an apparent argument about money, was never seen again. Nor was a Lebanese journalist accompanying him on the trip.

While dark humour has never been a strong quality in Libyans, there was one moment at Tripoli airport yesterday which proved it does exist. An incoming passenger from a Libyan Arab Airlines flight at the front of an immigration queue bellowed out: "And long life to our great leader Muammar Gaddafi." Then he burst into laughter – and the immigration officers did the same.

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/tripoli-a-city-in-the-shadow-of-death-2223977.html

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: dowling on February 24, 2011, 12:45:50 AM
Give her dixie do you think what's happening in Libya is any different to what's happening in other Arab countries. My take on Gaddafi is that his contibution to his country was progressive. Of course like any country at odds with America it has been demonised in the western press, attacked and continually in need to defend itself. But the picture painted of Gaddafi doesn't usually refer to developments within his own country that benefit Libyans or perhaps that he was one of the first Arab leaders to condemn 9/11. Would you know much about him yourself? Could you give us your take on him. Call me cynical but I think the western press are taking a lot of satisfaction from what's happening in Libya where it was more amazement about the other countries and hoping for the worst.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on February 24, 2011, 01:27:20 AM
Ghadaffi appeared on Libyan TV last night to say he was still in the country and not in Venezuela as reported. He also declared war on his own civilians but heh lets ignore that and muddy the waters instead by talking about Chavez!

The words 'an inconvenient truth' come to mind.

Somebody put a bullet in the fcuker as soon as possible, and while they are at it, put one in Chavez and that nutter in N korea.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 01:37:13 AM
Dowling, Gadaffi has proven to be as mad as ever. However, whenever vast reserves of oil were discovered in Libya, he suddenly became a right fella in the eyes of the west. Tony Blair led the charges for Gadaffi to come in from the cold, and his puppet master Bush followed suit.

Libya have the largest reserves of Oil in Africa, and BP signed a deal with him for roughly $900 million. Tony handled this deal, and part of the deal was the release of Megrahi from prison in Scotland. Since the protests have broke out in Libya, Tony Blair hasn't said a word.

2 years ago we drove through Libya en route to Gaza. We spent a few days there, and witnessed the boom taking place across the country. However, as in most countries ruled by Dictators, the average person doesn't see a penny of the wealth. Foreign compaines drill and produce the oil, with foreign workers. The construction going on everywhere is also carried out by foriegn workers and companies. Gadaffi and his family pocket the profits from the oil, and uncle Tony gets his cut.

Speaking to the locals, it was quite clear they were fed up with Gadaffi and his brutal regime. Poverty is rife in Libya, and people really struggle to make ends meet. If he had been sharing the wealth, people wouldn't mind, however, he hoovers it all up, and doesn't care about the average Joe.

The article below gives an indication of who else profits from Gadaffi's oil:

The website of the US-Libya Business Association (USLBA) was down on Monday as protests in the Arab nation targeting leader Muammar al-Gaddafi's 41-year regime dramatically intensified.

USLBA, incorporated in 2005, describes itself as "the only U.S. trade association focusing on the United States and Libya," and has organized policy conferences attended by senior US officials.

A Web cache of the group reveals that over a dozen oil and energy companies and military contractors are members of its executive advisory committee, including Dow Chemical, Chevron, Halliburton, Shell, Raytheon and Occidental Petroleum.

The Bush administration lifted Libya from the US list of state sponsors of terrorism in May 2006, reopening diplomatic relations between the two longtime foes.

Sanctions were initially placed after Gaddafi's government was implicated in terrorist attacks that led to the deaths of US soldiers. Libyan terrorists reportedly bombed a Pan Am flight over Scotland in 1988.

Libya has a rich supply of known oil reserves, and much of the country remains untapped. The US Energy Information Administration reports that Libya "has the largest proven oil reserves in Africa."

In 2009, USLBA announced that it had transitioned management to the National Foreign Trade Council, a free trade group.

It's unclear when exactly USLBA's website went down, but the group appears to have been active as recently as this month. USLBA's executive director Charles Dittrich took part in a discussion weeks ago about US-Libya relations, and mentioned his ties to the group.

A call to USLBA's Washington, DC office and an email to the group were not immediately returned Monday afternoon.

Clashes in Libya grew violent on Monday as demonstrators crowded cities and regime officials reportedly used air strikes to fend off protesters fighting the military and setting government buildings on fire.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 01:39:21 AM
Ghadaffi appeared on Libyan TV last night to say he was still in the country and not in Venezuela as reported. He also declared war on his own civilians but heh lets ignore that and muddy the waters instead by talking about Chavez!

The words 'an inconvenient truth' come to mind.

Somebody put a bullet in the fcuker as soon as possible, and while they are at it, put one in Chavez and that nutter in N korea.

What has Chavez done to you Stew? Did you not get any of the free oil that he sent to the poor in the US when all other oil companies refused?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 01:47:50 AM
Iranian naval vessels major provocation: Israel
By MARK LAVIE | AP

Published: Feb 22, 2011 22:09 Updated: Feb 22, 2011 22:09

JERUSALEM: As two Iranian warships sailed into the Mediterranean on Tuesday, an Israeli leader charged that Iran's goal was hegemony in the Middle East.

The ships exited the Suez Canal Tuesday afternoon. It was the first time Iran has sent warships through the canal since the 1979 revolution. Israeli leaders have called the move a provocation.

“The passage of the Iranian ships is part of the comprehensive struggle that Iran is conducting against the West for hegemony and control in the Middle East,” Vice Premier Silvan Shalom told an energy conference in Israel's southern resort of Eilat.

“The objective of the Iranian provocation is to signal to the leaders of the Arab world who the new leader is in the Middle East,” he said.

Iran and Israel are bitter enemies. Israel considers Iran a threat because of its nuclear program, missile development and frequent references by its leader to Israel's destruction. Iran also backs anti-Israel groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.

Despite the strong language, Israel was seen as unlikely to take action against the boats, which are expected to remain in international waters as they head toward Syria, past the Israeli coast.

Military analysts on Israeli TV news programs said the Iranian military vessel and its trailing supply ship do not pose a real threat to Israel.

Israeli security officials said that as long as the ships remain in international waters, there is nothing Israel can legally do. They spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the issue.



Since when has that been a consideration for them?

Hasn't stopped them before all right Hardy.....

Since they can't do anything for now, they sure as hell are trying to provoke Iran into using their ships today.
From early today, the United States Of Israel have been pounding Gaza with shells and missiles.

This morning, US tanks made incursions into the besieged strip, and shelled several area's. 1 young girl was murdered, and another 3 children were critically injured. Another 14 were also injured.

A couple of hours ago, US Apache helicopters fired several missiles injuring a further 15 people, and damaging more property.

In the past 30 minutes, US F16's have been firing missiles in Northern Gaza. It is too soon to report any injuries or damage.

No doubt they are trying to provoke Iran, and while the world is watching Libya and the crazy Gadaffi, the lunatics in the White House in Tel Aviv are plotting and carrying out more death and destruction. How long will it be until they strike Iran?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 24, 2011, 08:22:54 AM
Ghadaffi appeared on Libyan TV last night to say he was still in the country and not in Venezuela as reported. He also declared war on his own civilians but heh lets ignore that and muddy the waters instead by talking about Chavez!

The words 'an inconvenient truth' come to mind.

Somebody put a bullet in the fcuker as soon as possible, and while they are at it, put one in Chavez and that nutter in N korea.

What a bizarre post. What exactly has Hugo Chavez done to deserve to be assassinated? Started any illegal wars recently? Has Venezuala now got "Weapons of Mass Destruction" ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 08:39:34 AM
That's the US way Arthur. If anyone doesn't like the US, well then, sure just shoot or bomb them. No excuse needed.........

Even if it's protestors in Wisconsin, they too are ripe for shooting......

World Breaking NewsThe Canadian Press - ONLINE EDITION

Indiana AG's office: Deputy fired after tweeting cops should shoot Wisconsin protesters

By: Charles Wilson, The Associated Press

INDIANAPOLIS - An Indiana deputy attorney general "is no longer employed" by the state after a magazine reported he tweeted that police should to use live ammunition against Wisconsin labour protesters, the attorney general's office said Wednesday.

Mother Jones magazine reported Wednesday that Jeffrey Cox responded "Use live ammunition" to a Saturday night posting on its Twitter account that said riot police could sweep protesters out of the Wisconsin capitol, where thousands have been protesting a bill that would strip public employees of collective bargaining rights.

Cox also referred to the protesters as "thugs physically threatening legally-elected state legislators & governor" and said "You're damn right I advocate deadly force," according to the magazine. He later told an Indianapolis television station the comments were intended to be satirical.

The Indiana attorney general's office said it conducted "a thorough and expeditious review" after the report.

"We respect individuals' First Amendment right to express their personal views on private online forums, but as public servants we are held by the public to a higher standard, and we should strive for civility," the office said in a statement.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 24, 2011, 04:33:00 PM
Settlements: Obama’s surrender
Never before has an American president's fear of offending the Zionist lobby and its stooges in Congress been so exposed as it was by Barack Obama's decision to veto the Security Council resolution condemning continued, illegal Israeli settlement activities on the occupied West Bank and demanding that Israel "immediately and completely cease" all such activities.

In a different America — an informed America — some might think, I do, that Obama should be impeached. The charge? Treason.

After she had exercised the Obama administration's first veto, the plea made by US Ambassador Susan Rice for understanding of America's position could not have been more absurd. "Our opposition to the resolution before this Council today should not be misunderstood to mean that we support settlement activity. On the contrary, we reject in the strongest terms the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlement activity."

So why the veto? Ambassador Rice said:

"The United States has been deeply committed to pursuing a comprehensive and lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians, In that context, we have been focused on taking steps that advance the goal of two states living side by side in peace and security, rather than complicating it. That includes a commitment to work in good faith with all parties to underscore our opposition to continued settlements."

What nonsense! If the Obama administration really wanted to underscore its stated opposition to Israel's ongoing colonization of the occupied West Bank including Arab East Jerusalem, there was no better or more effective way of doing so than voting for the resolution or abstaining. In either case the resolution would have passed and that would have opened the door to real global pressure on Israel if it continued to defy international law.

As for advancing the goal of a two-state solution, the Obama administration has done the opposite. By allowing Israel to continue its illegal settlement activities and consolidate its occupation, it, the Obama administration, has helped to guarantee that there can never be a viable Palestinian state living side by side with an Israel inside its borders as they were on the eve of the 1967 war.

In the context of the conflict in and over Palestine that became Israel, the only thing to which the Obama administration has been deeply committed is not provoking the wrath of the Zionist lobby and its stooges in Congress and the mainstream media. For all practical purposes Obama has surrendered policy making on Israel-Palestine to this lobby. (The veto marked the complete surrender).

The essence of the problem this presents can be simply stated. The Zionist lobby's agenda — unquestioning support for Israel right or wrong — is not in America's best interests. (In reality it is not in anybody's best interests including those of Israeli Jews and the Jews of the world).

As I pointed out in an earlier piece (Crunch time coming for America in the Middle East?), what all Arab peoples want is not only an end to corruption and repression and a better life in their own countries. They also want an end to the humiliation caused by Israel's arrogance of power and American support for it.

It is clear that the manifestations of Arab people power the world is witnessing were not instigated by Islamist extremist groups and are spontaneous protests with demands by citizens from all sections of civil society. So at the present time that is no evidence to suggest that change brought about by people power in Arab states will create more cover, more scope and more popular support for extremist and violent forces which use and abuse Islam in much the same way as Zionists use and abuse Judaism. But this could change, in my view will change, if America goes on supporting Israel right or wrong. In other words, the more the administration in Washington D.C. is perceived by the Arab street as being complicit in the Zionist state's defiance of international law and crimes, the more American interests and citizens are likely to be targeted and hit.

The American Constitution states that a president can be impeached and removed from office for "treason, bribery or other high crimes and misdemeanors."

In my view a president who allows a lobby group to put the interests of a foreign power above those of the country of which they are citizens, and who by doing so puts his fellow citizens more in harm's way than they otherwise would be, is guilty of treason. (And all the more so when the American-Jewish lobby in question does not speak for more than about a third, and possibly only a quarter, of America's mainly silent and deeply troubled Jews)

The admirable and courageous Gideon Levy, the conscience of Israeli journalism, has a brilliant article (which I have tweeted) in Ha'aretz with the headline “With settlement veto resolution, Obama has joined Likud.”

And this is how Gideon concluded his piece:

"If the US had been a responsible superpower, it would have voted for the resolution on Friday to rouse Israel from its dangerous sleep. Instead, we got a hostile veto from Washington, shouts of joy from Jerusalem and a party that will end very badly for both."

— Alan Hart is a former ITN and BBC Panorama foreign correspondent who covered wars and conflicts wherever they were taking place in the world and specialized in the Middle East.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 24, 2011, 05:01:50 PM
Since they can't do anything for now, they sure as hell are trying to provoke Iran into using their ships today.
From early today, the United States Of Israel have been pounding Gaza with shells and missiles.

This morning, US tanks made incursions into the besieged strip, and shelled several area's. 1 young girl was murdered, and another 3 children were critically injured. Another 14 were also injured.

A couple of hours ago, US Apache helicopters fired several missiles injuring a further 15 people, and damaging more property.

In the past 30 minutes, US F16's have been firing missiles in Northern Gaza. It is too soon to report any injuries or damage.

No doubt they are trying to provoke Iran, and while the world is watching Libya and the crazy Gadaffi, the lunatics in the White House in Tel Aviv are plotting and carrying out more death and destruction. How long will it be until they strike Iran?   
 


Nothing to do with Iran......

Israeli tanks strike Gaza after mortar attack
By ASSOCIATED PRESS

Published: Feb 23, 2011 17:03 Updated: Feb 23, 2011 17:04

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip: Palestinian officials say 11 people, including at least six militants, have been wounded by Israeli tank fire in the Gaza Strip.

The military says it opened fire Wednesday after the militants detonated a bomb targeting a passing Israeli patrol near the border and then fired mortars at the soldiers.

Gaza health officials say two of the wounded militants are in serious condition. Both Islamic Jihad and Hamas militants say they fired mortars at the troops.

No Israeli soldiers were hurt.

Israel and Hamas have largely observed an unofficial cease-fire since an Israeli military offensive in Gaza two years ago. But clashes sporadically flare up along the volatile border as Gaza militants fire rockets and mortars into Israel, drawing military reprisals.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 24, 2011, 05:21:34 PM
Groucho you should delete that post. It wouldnt do to post anything which won't advance the anti "UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL" ramblings of John.

US tanks...
US Apaches.... (I thought the cavalary all but wiped them out)
US F16s....
 ::) ::) ::)
Don't worry about mentioning at all John that the Israeli incursion was in response to Palestinian ADMITTED mortar attacks.


Emperor - put a pair of monks on at least so the small boy can stop pointing at you.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 24, 2011, 06:09:34 PM
Groucho you should delete that post. It wouldnt do to post anything which won't advance the anti "UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL" ramblings of John.

US tanks...
US Apaches.... (I thought the cavalary all but wiped them out)
US F16s....
 ::) ::) ::)
Don't worry about mentioning at all John that the Israeli incursion was in response to Palestinian ADMITTED mortar attacks.


Emperor - put a pair of monks on at least so the small boy can stop pointing at you.

A few pages ago someone begged that the insults stopped here and they pretty much did. Now on you come and instead of debating the issue you attack a poster while having contributed absolutely zero to the debate.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 24, 2011, 06:21:38 PM
Catch yourself on Myles. There's no debate to be had when posts full of naked agendas against one side are being thrown around as hard facts by the fella with no clothes on.

That's the US way Arthur. If anyone doesn't like the US, well then, sure just shoot or bomb them. No excuse needed.........

This morning, US tanks made incursions into the besieged strip, and shelled several area's. 1 young girl was murdered, and another 3 children were critically injured. Another 14 were also injured.

A couple of hours ago, US Apache helicopters fired several missiles injuring a further 15 people, and damaging more property.

In the past 30 minutes, US F16's have been firing missiles in Northern Gaza. It is too soon to report any injuries or damage.

No doubt they are trying to provoke Iran,



There is also no insulting going on on my part.

If you think John's posts above are the posts of someone without an agenda who wants to debate, then I despair. If a regular poster without prior admitted hate for the USA was to post something innaccurate - they might get away with it. When you're full of hate and spin its a little more sinister to be posting such angled and edited (at best) stuff.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Main Street on February 24, 2011, 08:59:51 PM
Of course there is little to compare between their infamies but I was reminded of Cowen's behaviour ranting and raving as his end was nigh when I saw Gadaffi fuming like a maniac on tv.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on February 24, 2011, 09:05:45 PM
Catch yourself on Myles. There's no debate to be had when posts full of naked agendas against one side are being thrown around as hard facts by the fella with no clothes on.

That's the US way Arthur. If anyone doesn't like the US, well then, sure just shoot or bomb them. No excuse needed.........

This morning, US tanks made incursions into the besieged strip, and shelled several area's. 1 young girl was murdered, and another 3 children were critically injured. Another 14 were also injured.

A couple of hours ago, US Apache helicopters fired several missiles injuring a further 15 people, and damaging more property.

In the past 30 minutes, US F16's have been firing missiles in Northern Gaza. It is too soon to report any injuries or damage.

No doubt they are trying to provoke Iran,



There is also no insulting going on on my part.

If you think John's posts above are the posts of someone without an agenda who wants to debate, then I despair. If a regular poster without prior admitted hate for the USA was to post something innaccurate - they might get away with it. When you're full of hate and spin its a little more sinister to be posting such angled and edited (at best) stuff.

He has made some strong accusations against the US there for sure. If you don't agree why don't you counter that with your own opinion and maybe use some media to back it up instead of a rant accusing Dixie of all sorts. Personally I do agree that the US bombs and kills for its own selfish aims and wraps it up in bullshit arguments about freedom for all etc etc. That doesn't make me anti america, it makes me anti the people & corporations that run america. I have nothing against the people there at all and have been plenty of times.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 09:42:42 PM
Groucho you should delete that post. It wouldnt do to post anything which won't advance the anti "UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL" ramblings of John.

US tanks...
US Apaches.... (I thought the cavalary all but wiped them out)
US F16s....
 ::) ::) ::)
Don't worry about mentioning at all John that the Israeli incursion was in response to Palestinian ADMITTED mortar attacks.


Emperor - put a pair of monks on at least so the small boy can stop pointing at you.

Neil, Israel invaded Gaza, and Palestinian resistance responded. What would you do Neil if someone broke into your house? Would you stand idly by?
Neil, as for the US tanks, US Apache helicopters, US F16's, and the missiles they fired, it is your tax dollars that have sent them there. Are you happy with how your dollars are at work Neil?

If only the foreign nationals here in Ireland were as patriotic as the foreign nationals in the US are to the war machine that is Uncle Sam,  then we might have a different result in the elections tomorrow.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 24, 2011, 10:06:48 PM
John - were is the unbiased information that Israel opened fire first? The document posted by Groucho from the associated press is in direct conflict with what you are saying.

Personally I'm concerned - but its a selfish concern at how the tax dollars donated from me are spent. I'm living in a state with less than zero money, and in a city which just laid off another 100 police and fire personnel last week. I'd surely love some of both the defence budget and the aid to Israel to be re-directed into jobs/state and city services in poor areas of this country. However that's a Utopian dream for both you and me. More importantly my measley tax dollars probably wouldnt even cover the cost of one bullet - and that is my primary area of concern.

On a side note - you made your own real name known to all and sundry on this board - and while I've no problem with anyone on here knowing who I am - it's most certainly not your place to make that decision for me. If you'd have preferred to continue to go by the nom de plume on here you could have simply let me know.


Myles - highlighting the unabashed, shameless spin that gets thrown on here - isnt a rant of accusation of anything. We've been through this numerous times. I was, and continue to be impressed with the selfless work GHD has performed in bringing aid to the people of Gaza. I'd personally be more impressed with a balanced view of the whole situation - but that can't happen any time soon from the pro palestinian/anti everything USA and Israel side in this discussion. If I'd nothing to say - the bashing of the USA would continue on here (oftentimes well founded) - but there'd be very few in this particular thread who'd tell him to hold on a minute and stick to the posting of facts.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 10:49:15 PM
Puckoon, considering you and one other person continue to call me John, while others who know me personally refer to me by my GAA Board name, plus the fact that you took something I posted on facebook and distorted it for your own agenda, I felt that it was common courtesty to call you by your name. No offence intended.......

Puckoon, I have posted many many links, plus many thoughts of my own. However, you have resorted to personally attacking me, and following your leader, adding stupid smilies to back up your arguments.

Your 1st contribution to this thread was to attack me, and not a mention of the thousands of people who have died in the middle east in the past few weeks. You also tried to rewrite history and justify Israel's attack on Egypt in '67. You have added nothing to this thread except to attack me. Personally, I appreciate your support for what I have done for the Palestinians, however, if it wasn't for the US war machine, I wouldn't have to do what I do for them. The blame for what is happening to the Palestinians lies directly at the door mat of the White House. Last weeks vote in the UN proves that.

Instead of attacking me personally, attack the points I have made, add something constructive to the thread, and feel free to post anything that proves that the US are honest in their work in the middle east.

I am not on this thread to fight with you or anyone else. I am offering my opinion, the opinion of others who are on the ground, and the voice of those who are suffering oppression. Irish history has taught me to stand up for the oppressed, and to recognise those who helped us when we needed it. However, the greatest threat to world peace is the US, and in the middle east, Israel, and to a lesser extent, Iran. That is my view.

Having spent 7 years in the US, I have nothing but good to say about my time there, and the friends I continue to have there. However, I am totally against the foriegn policy of the US Government who are ruled by the Zionists, and the illegal wars they rage on innocent people. That doesn't make me anti US.

2 years ago to the day, I was travelling through Tunisia en route to Gaza. The Tunisian Government treated us like dirt, as did the Egyptians. However, when we reached Libya, we were welcomed like heroes. The Gadaffi Foundation doubled the size of our convoy, filled our vehicles with fuel, fed and housed us, and personally, I was delighted. However, what has gone on in Libya over the past few days has sickened me to the bottom of my stomach. How could they help Gaza and today murder their own. It isn't right.

If you can spare an hour, or anyone else who is reading this thread, please watch the following documentary. It is the story of our journey through Europe, Morroco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt, and into Gaza. Considering that the middle east is high on the news agenda at present, it is an incredible insight into how the different countries treated us, and why there is a revolution spreading like wildfire across the region at present. The documentary uses some of my own footage of the Egyptians taking our aid, our crossing into Gaza, and the destruction we witnessed. If anyone watches the documentary, there is a scence near the end when we cross into Gaza. A man with his daughter on his shoulders were the first to speak to us. His words were the 1st words I heard in Gaza, and they will forever live in my memory. It is his words that inspire me to speak out, and do what I do.

"3 Uncles Go To Gaza"  http://vimeo.com/20257246

Puckoon, as I have said before, I don't want to fight with you or anyone else on this thread, and for a 2nd time, if we can keep personalities out of this debate, and concentrate on the real issues at hand, then we can have a discussion that we can all be proud to contribute to. Remember, thousands of people are dying for the liberties we take for granted, and millions more are yearning for.

Peace Brother?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 24, 2011, 10:51:51 PM
Groucho you should delete that post. It wouldnt do to post anything which won't advance the anti "UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL" ramblings of John.

US tanks...
US Apaches.... (I thought the cavalary all but wiped them out)
US F16s....
 ::) ::) ::)
Don't worry about mentioning at all John that the Israeli incursion was in response to Palestinian ADMITTED mortar attacks.


Emperor - put a pair of monks on at least so the small boy can stop pointing at you.

Neil, Israel invaded Gaza, and Palestinian resistance responded. What would you do Neil if someone broke into your house? Would you stand idly by?
Neil, as for the US tanks, US Apache helicopters, US F16's, and the missiles they fired, it is your tax dollars that have sent them there. Are you happy with how your dollars are at work Neil?

If only the foreign nationals here in Ireland were as patriotic as the foreign nationals in the US are to the war machine that is Uncle Sam,  then we might have a different result in the elections tomorrow.
Surely this breaks the rules of the board  :-X
Could you possibly get any lower as an individual.. :o snakes belly comes to mind here!

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 24, 2011, 10:59:33 PM
Go back with your highlighter there biglad ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on February 24, 2011, 11:05:55 PM
Quote
Puckoon, I have posted many many links, plus many thoughts of my own. However, you have resorted to personally attacking me, and following your leader, adding stupid smilies to back up your arguments.

 :D Speak out and you're automatically labeled... an old Alinsky tactic at play;

'Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It.' 
 - Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.
 
Galloway and his minnions taught you well!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on February 24, 2011, 11:08:53 PM
Quote
Puckoon, I have posted many many links, plus many thoughts of my own. However, you have resorted to personally attacking me, and following your leader, adding stupid smilies to back up your arguments.

 :D Speak out and you're automatically labeled... an old Alinsky tactic at play;

'Pick the Target, Freeze It, Personalize It and Polarize It.' 
 - Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals.
 
Galloway and his minnions taught you well!

*Shakes head*
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 24, 2011, 11:24:07 PM
Behind the Arab revolt is a word we dare not speak

John Pilgner
24 February 2011

Shortly after the invasion of Iraq in 2003, I interviewed Ray McGovern, one of an elite group of CIA officers who prepared the President’s daily intelligence brief. McGovern was at the apex of the “national security” monolith that is American power and had retired with presidential plaudits. On the eve of the invasion, he and 45 other senior officers of the CIA and other intelligence agencies wrote to President George W. Bush that the “drumbeat for war” was based not on intelligence, but lies.

“It was 95 per cent charade,” McGovern told me.

“How did they get away with it?”

“The press allowed the crazies to get away with it.”

“Who are the crazies?”

“The people running the [Bush] administration have a set of beliefs a lot like those expressed in Mein Kampf... these are the same people who were referred to in the circles in which I moved, at the top, as ‘the crazies’.”

I said, “Norman Mailer has written that that he believes America has entered a pre-fascist state. What’s your view of that?”

“Well... I hope he’s right, because there are others saying we are already in a fascist mode.”

On 22 January, Ray McGovern emailed me to express his disgust at the Obama administration’s barbaric treatment of the alleged whistleblower Bradley Manning and its pursuit of WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange. “Way back when George and Tony decided it might be fun to attack Iraq,” he wrote, “I said something to the effect that fascism had already begun here. I have to admit I did not think it would get this bad this quickly.”

On 16 February, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave a speech at George Washington University in which she condemned governments that arrested protestors and crushed free expression. She lauded the liberating power of the internet while failing to mention that her government was planning to close down those parts of the internet that encouraged dissent and truth-telling.  It was a speech of spectacular hypocrisy, and Ray McGovern was in the audience. Outraged, he rose from his chair and silently turned his back on Clinton. He was immediately seized by police and a security goon and beaten to the floor, dragged out and thrown into jail, bleeding. He has sent me photographs of his injuries. He is 71. During the assault, which was clearly visible to Clinton, she did not pause in her remarks.

Fascism is a difficult word, because it comes with an iconography that touches the Nazi nerve and is abused as propaganda against America’s official enemies and to promote the West’s foreign adventures with a moral vocabulary written in the struggle against Hitler. And yet fascism and imperialism are twins. In the aftermath of world war two, those in the imperial states who had made respectable the racial and cultural superiority of “western civilisation”, found that Hitler and fascism had claimed the same, employing strikingly similar methods. Thereafter, the very notion of American imperialism was swept from the textbooks and popular culture of an imperial nation forged on the genocidal conquest of its native people. And a war on social justice and democracy became “US foreign policy”.

As the Washington historian William Blum has documented, since 1945, the US has destroyed or subverted more than 50 governments, many of them democracies, and used mass murderers like Suharto, Mobutu and Pinochet to dominate by proxy.  In the Middle East, every dictatorship and pseudo-monarchy has been sustained by America. In “Operation Cyclone”, the CIA and MI6 secretly fostered and bank-rolled Islamic extremism. The object was to smash or deter nationalism and democracy. The victims of this western state terrorism have been mostly Muslims. The courageous people gunned down last week in Bahrain and Libya, the latter a “priority UK market”, according to Britain’s official arms “procurers”, join those children blown to bits in Gaza by the latest American F-16 aircraft.

The revolt in the Arab world is not merely against a resident dictator but a worldwide economic tyranny designed by the US Treasury and imposed by the US Agency for International Development, the IMF and World Bank, which have ensured that rich countries like Egypt are reduced to vast sweatshops, with half the population earning less than $2 a day. The people’s triumph in Cairo was the first blow against what Benito Mussolini called corporatism, a word that appears in his definition of fascism.

How did such extremism take hold in the liberal West? “It is necessary to destroy hope, idealism, solidarity, and concern for the poor and oppressed,” observed Noam Chomsky a generation ago, “[and] to replace these dangerous feelings with self-centred egoism, a pervasive cynicism that holds that [an order of] inequities and oppression is the best that can be achieved. In fact, a great international propaganda campaign is under way to convince people – particularly young people – that this not only is what they should feel but that it’s what they do feel.”

Like the European revolutions of 1848 and the uprising against Stalinism in 1989, the Arab revolt has rejected fear. An insurrection of suppressed ideas, hope and solidarity has begun. In the United States, where 45 per cent of young African-Americans have no jobs and the top hedge fund managers are paid, on average, a billion dollars a year, mass protests against cuts in services and jobs have spread to heartland states like Wisconsin. In Britain, the fastest-growing modern protest movement, UK Uncut, is about to take direct action against tax avoiders and rapacious banks. Something has changed that cannot be unchanged. The enemy has a name now.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on February 25, 2011, 12:06:11 AM
All the while the case against Iran is being built up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZ47T58P5xg

A word of caution,  as there are graphic scenes of women being stoned and hung.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on February 25, 2011, 12:47:04 AM
GHD,

I'm all for peace. I'd rather have it at all times, so I am good with letting any acrimony go.

I'm going to go and take a look at that video if I get time after work. I can see how it appears that I am in attack mode, but honestly that isnt the intention. Parity in the discussion is the intention, and I think for myself - without following any leader. I've never tried to attack you - nor have I tried to 'rewrite' history pertinent to the discussion. I've merely opened up the possibility that there is more to the middle eastern problem than one story. Neither you nor I were collecting history data at the time of the 1967 war - so it is fair to say that our information comes from sources. How do we discern who's source is correct? What I suggested regarding 1967 is documented history that I didn't pull out of thin air. How can we return to debate as agendaless as possible - when my alternative interpretation - (merely suggested) is turned into an accusation of rewriting history? I don't know the truth of 1967 - but if alternative explanations are out there - why not discuss them?

I have much to learn about the middle eastern problem, and the Jewish nation - and it is something I am trying to read as much as I can about when I find the time.

There is no denying that the US has been heavily influencial in the region - and that this influence not always altruistic. There is not just one reason for this - and in all nations self preservation is the key role of those in charge. Rightly or wrongly that is not going to change. What are viable alternatives to removing US interference?

Peace it is.


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 25, 2011, 12:50:18 AM
Good stuff Puckoon, and sure after you watch the documentary, we can have another chat.

Peace and love bro.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on February 25, 2011, 06:05:37 AM
Groucho you should delete that post. It wouldnt do to post anything which won't advance the anti "UNITED STATES OF ISRAEL" ramblings of John.

US tanks...
US Apaches.... (I thought the cavalary all but wiped them out)
US F16s....
 ::) ::) ::)
Don't worry about mentioning at all John that the Israeli incursion was in response to Palestinian ADMITTED mortar attacks.


Emperor - put a pair of monks on at least so the small boy can stop pointing at you.

Neil, Israel invaded Gaza, and Palestinian resistance responded. What would you do Neil if someone broke into your house? Would you stand idly by?
Neil, as for the US tanks, US Apache helicopters, US F16's, and the missiles they fired, it is your tax dollars that have sent them there. Are you happy with how your dollars are at work Neil?

If only the foreign nationals here in Ireland were as patriotic as the foreign nationals in the US are to the war machine that is Uncle Sam,  then we might have a different result in the elections tomorrow.
Surely this breaks the rules of the board  :-X
Could you possibly get any lower as an individual.. :o snakes belly comes to mind here!

I just want to keep this for the next time you try to hint at my identity.  ;D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 25, 2011, 06:09:04 AM
Quote
Having spent 7 years in the US, I have nothing but good to say about my time there, and the friends I continue to have there. However, I am totally against the foriegn policy of the US Government who are ruled by the Zionists, and the illegal wars they rage on innocent people. That doesn't make me anti US.

GHD, what are your thoughts on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion ? Do you think there is any truth in this text...?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on February 25, 2011, 09:55:00 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

The Protocols of the Elders of ZionFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This is the latest accepted revision, accepted on 23 February 2011.Jump to: navigation, search
 
A reproduction of the 1905 Russian edition by Serge Nilus, appearing in Praemonitus Praemunitus (1920).Antisemitism
 

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion is a fraudulent antisemitic text purporting to describe a Jewish plan to achieve global domination. The text was fabricated in the Russian Empire, and was first published in 1903. The text was translated into several languages and widely disseminated in the early part of the twentieth century. Henry Ford published the text in The International Jew, and it was widely distributed in the United States. In 1921, a series of articles printed in The Times revealed that the text was a fraud, and some of the material was plagiarized from earlier works of political satire unrelated to Jews. The Protocols purports to document the minutes of a late 19th-century meeting of Jewish leaders discussing their goal of global Jewish hegemony. Their proposals to engender such include subverting the morals of the Gentile world, controlling the world's economies, and controlling the press. The Protocols is still widely available today on the Internet and in print in numerous languages.


This notion of global domination......by Muslim, Christian or Jew......is ridiculous.
The big problem that the US have in the region is that they are reliant on others (particularly Israeli) for intelligence.
Israel is the only true "friend" that they have in the region and I think that they(Israel) exploit this all the time.
I'll give an example......say Israeli intelligence claimed that Saudi Arabia had the capability to develop nuclear weapons, and that there was a good possibility that the aging King would be replaced by someone under the influence of radical Imams.....

how would the USA act?


Trying to understand the region ........it would be easier to understand women!



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on February 25, 2011, 07:01:09 PM
but you can understand why someone would be suspicious when they read the constant posts harping  on about "zionists"  and their nefarious plans. You'd have to wonder about where that person is coming from.

The idea that the US government is ruled by zionists is ridiculous and is exactly the kind of rabble rousing statements that have been posted on here ad nauseum and that have gone, mostly, unchallenged. This is exactly the kind of fiction one can read in anti-semitic texts like the Elders of Zion.

There is a strong Israeli lobby , just as there is a strong NRA lobby but also a strong anti-gun lobby. Likewise the UCLA and the Unions lobby strongly for their interests. You can argue about the whole concept of lobbying but to suggest that one group dominates to the exclusion of others is BS.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Pangurban on February 25, 2011, 09:07:49 PM
Forget the Lobby and the Lobbyists Boys, follow the money
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on February 26, 2011, 12:01:46 PM

Robert Fisk: The destiny of this pageant lies in the Kingdom of Oil

Saturday, 26 February 2011

The Middle East earthquake of the past five weeks has been the most tumultuous, shattering, mind-numbing experience in the history of the region since the fall of the Ottoman empire. For once, "shock and awe" was the right description.

The docile, supine, unregenerative, cringing Arabs of Orientalism have transformed themselves into fighters for the freedom, liberty and dignity which we Westerners have always assumed it was our unique role to play in the world. One after another, our satraps are falling, and the people we paid them to control are making their own history – our right to meddle in their affairs (which we will, of course, continue to exercise) has been diminished for ever.

The tectonic plates continue to shift, with tragic, brave – even blackly humorous – results. Countless are the Arab potentates who always claimed they wanted democracy in the Middle East. King Bashar of Syria is to improve public servants' pay. King Bouteflika of Algeria has suddenly abandoned the country's state of emergency. King Hamad of Bahrain has opened the doors of his prisons. King Bashir of Sudan will not stand for president again. King Abdullah of Jordan is studying the idea of a constitutional monarchy. And al-Qa'ida are, well, rather silent.

Who would have believed that the old man in the cave would suddenly have to step outside, dazzled, blinded by the sunlight of freedom rather than the Manichean darkness to which his eyes had become accustomed. Martyrs there were aplenty across the Muslim world – but not an Islamist banner to be seen. The young men and women bringing an end to their torment of dictators were mostly Muslims, but the human spirit was greater than the desire for death. They are Believers, yes – but they got there first, toppling Mubarak while Bin Laden's henchmen still called for his overthrow on outdated videotapes.

But now a warning. It's not over. We are experiencing today that warm, slightly clammy feeling before the thunder and lightning break out. Gaddafi's final horror movie has yet to end, albeit with that terrible mix of farce and blood to which we are accustomed in the Middle East. And his impending doom is, needless to say, throwing into ever-sharper perspective the vile fawning of our own potentates. Berlusconi – who in many respects is already a ghastly mockery of Gaddafi himself – and Sarkozy, and Lord Blair of Isfahan are turning out to look even shabbier than we believed. Those faith-based eyes blessed Gaddafi the murderer. I did write at the time that Blair and Straw had forgotten the "whoops" factor, the reality that this weird light bulb was absolutely bonkers and would undoubtedly perform some other terrible act to shame our masters. And sure enough, every journalist is now going to have to add "Mr Blair's office did not return our call" to his laptop keyboard.

Everyone is now telling Egypt to follow the "Turkish model" – this seems to involve a pleasant cocktail of democracy and carefully controlled Islam. But if this is true, Egypt's army will keep an unwanted, undemocratic eye on its people for decades to come. As lawyer Ali Ezzatyar has pointed out, "Egypt's military leaders have spoken of threats to the "Egyptian way of life"... in a not so subtle reference to threats from the Muslim Brotherhood. This can be seen as a page taken from the Turkish playbook." The Turkish army turned up as kingmakers four times in modern Turkish history. And who but the Egyptian army, makers of Nasser, constructors of Sadat, got rid of the ex-army general Mubarak when the game was up?

And democracy – the real, unfettered, flawed but brilliant version which we in the West have so far lovingly (and rightly) cultivated for ourselves – is not going, in the Arab world, to rest happy with Israel's pernicious treatment of Palestinians and its land theft in the West Bank. Now no longer the "only democracy in the Middle East", Israel argued desperately – in company with Saudi Arabia, for heaven's sake – that it was necessary to maintain Mubarak's tyranny. It pressed the Muslim Brotherhood button in Washington and built up the usual Israeli lobby fear quotient to push Obama and La Clinton off the rails yet again. Faced with pro-democracy protesters in the lands of oppression, they duly went on backing the oppressors until it was too late. I love "orderly transition". The "order" bit says it all. Only Israeli journalist Gideon Levy got it right. "We should be saying 'Mabrouk Misr!'," he said. Congratulations, Egypt!

Yet in Bahrain, I had a depressing experience. King Hamad and Crown Prince Salman have been bowing to their 70 per cent (80 per cent?) Shia population, opening prison doors, promising constitutional reforms. So I asked a government official in Manama if this was really possible. Why not have an elected prime minister instead of a member of the Khalifa royal family? He clucked his tongue. "Impossible," he said. "The GCC would never permit this." For GCC – the Gulf Co-operation Council – read Saudi Arabia. And here, I am afraid, our tale grows darker.

We pay too little attention to this autocratic band of robber princes; we think they are archaic, illiterate in modern politics, wealthy (yes, "beyond the dreams of Croesus", etc), and we laughed when King Abdullah offered to make up any fall in bailouts from Washington to the Mubarak regime, and we laugh now when the old king promises $36bn to his citizens to keep their mouths shut. But this is no laughing matter. The Arab revolt which finally threw the Ottomans out of the Arab world started in the deserts of Arabia, its tribesmen trusting Lawrence and McMahon and the rest of our gang. And from Arabia came Wahabism, the deep and inebriating potion – white foam on the top of the black stuff – whose ghastly simplicity appealed to every would-be Islamist and suicide bomber in the Sunni Muslim world. The Saudis fostered Osama bin Laden and al-Qa'ida and the Taliban. Let us not even mention that they provided most of the 9/11 bombers. And the Saudis will now believe they are the only Muslims still in arms against the brightening world. I have an unhappy suspicion that the destiny of this pageant of Middle East history unfolding before us will be decided in the kingdom of oil, holy places and corruption. Watch out.

But a lighter note. I've been hunting for the most memorable quotations from the Arab revolution. We've had "Come back, Mr President, we were only kidding" from an anti-Mubarak demonstrator. And we've had Saif el-Islam el-Gaddafi's Goebbels-style speech: "Forget oil, forget gas – there will be civil war." My very own favourite, selfish and personal quotation came when my old friend Tom Friedman of The New York Times joined me for breakfast in Cairo with his usual disarming smile. "Fisky," he said, "this Egyptian came up to me in Tahrir Square yesterday, and asked me if I was Robert Fisk!" Now that's what I call a revolution.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 26, 2011, 02:00:27 PM
but you can understand why someone would be suspicious when they read the constant posts harping  on about "zionists"  and their nefarious plans. You'd have to wonder about where that person is coming from.

The idea that the US government is ruled by zionists is ridiculous and is exactly the kind of rabble rousing statements that have been posted on here ad nauseum and that have gone, mostly, unchallenged. This is exactly the kind of fiction one can read in anti-semitic texts like the Elders of Zion.

There is a strong Israeli lobby , just as there is a strong NRA lobby but also a strong anti-gun lobby. Likewise the UCLA and the Unions lobby strongly for their interests. You can argue about the whole concept of lobbying but to suggest that one group dominates to the exclusion of others is BS.

AIPAC is the reason why the US vetoed the UN reolution on illegal Jewish settlelments, Mike. AIPAC has the Us sewn up on the Middle East. There is a Jewish lobby and it is allied to a fundamentalist Christian lobby and they put Israel before America.
Israelis get healthcare and free college and Yanks don't. That is the lobby.

Israel is going down and the lobby won't be able to stop it.
 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Minder on March 06, 2011, 04:18:21 AM
Six SAS captured by the Libyans, allegedly.

Maybe this isn't a cool cause anymore.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on March 06, 2011, 10:40:39 AM
Six SAS captured by the Libyans, allegedly.

Maybe this isn't a cool cause anymore.

By which side?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on March 06, 2011, 10:47:27 AM
The rebels
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on March 06, 2011, 11:07:41 AM
The rebels

Those Cork ones are everywhere ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: DuffleKing on March 06, 2011, 11:17:31 AM

Its very interesting watching the Libya story develop and the use of language to manipulate perceptions. I've no idea what's going on inside Libya - i simply don't trust any of the media outlets i've seen covering it - but the different terms applied to each side is intrigueing. I note now that the army that follow orders are mercenaries and those that do not remain the army. The usual freedom movement and freedom fighters are in place.

Is the capture of an SAS unit inside Libya surprising? The stench of oil in the air is heady.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on March 06, 2011, 01:47:12 PM
Six SAS captured by the Libyans, allegedly.

Maybe this isn't a cool cause anymore.
yup! they're at it again messing in stuff, six heavily armed sas soldiers and a british 'diplomat' captured by anti gadaffi troops. according to the bbc ( ::)) they were searched on their way to a meeting with opposition leaders and were found to be armed to the teeth and in possession of high explosives :o for all we know this may have been an assassination squad sent to kill opposition leaders probably because gadaffi has decided to play ball with the brits by fading away but putting someone useful in his place.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on March 08, 2011, 05:06:42 PM
UK seizes ship carrying $160M of Libyan currency
By RAPHAEL G. SATTER | AP

Published: Mar 4, 2011 20:53 Updated: Mar 4, 2011 20:53

LONDON: A ship carrying about $160 million worth of Libyan currency has been impounded after turning back from a planned trip to Libya, a British government official said Friday.

The official said the ship — whose nationality and ownership she refused to identify — returned to Britain after its captain decided not to dock at Tripoli harbor because of the unrest there. The vessel returned to the port of Harwich in eastern England on Wednesday under escort by a Border Agency cutter, she said.

A number of containers full of currency were moved from the ship to a secure location.

The official spoke on condition of anonymity because she was not authorized to speak on the record.

She declined to comment on the precise timing of the events leading up to the second currency seizure this week, but said that the ship left for Libya before the imposition of international sanctions. She also declined to comment on where the currency came from, although Britain is home to international printer De La Rue PLC, which produces over 150 national currencies. De La Rue declined comment Friday.

Britain has banned the export of Libyan bank notes in line with UN sanctions, and earlier this week the government announced the seizure of around $1.5 billion worth of Libyan currency which had yet to leave the country.

Meanwhile, the UK is also expanding its asset-freezing program to include an additional 20 senior members of Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi’s entourage — mainly top brass and spymasters — the government official said.

The total number of Qaddafi associates subject to British asset freezing orders now stands at 26, while the amount of money frozen in the UK — including the seized currency — has risen to approximately $3.3 billion, she said.

But in an illustration of how tricky asset-freezing campaigns can be, the London-based British Arab Commercial Bank PLC, which is mostly Libyan-owned and largely funded by the Libyan government, announced Friday that it has been given the official go-ahead to continue operating internationally.

The bank is about 83 percent owned by the Libya’s central bank and about three-quarters of its funding comes from Libyan governmental or quasi-governmental sources, according to Fitch Ratings. The bank, which provides short-term loans and other services to wholesale customers across the Middle East and North Africa, had about 3.3 billion pounds ($5.36 billion) in assets in 2009.

The British official declined to answer questions about why the bank hadn’t been blocked, while other Libyan government-associated funds such as the Libyan Investment Authority had seen their assets frozen.

But she said that, in general, government freezing orders are structured in such a way so as to avoid harming “innocent UK financial casualties.” She noted that assets belonging to people on the British Treasury’s blacklist would be frozen regardless of where they were held.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: DrinkingHarp on March 09, 2011, 03:40:18 PM
Christian-Muslim clashes in Egypt kill 13


HENDAWI, Associated Press Hamza Hendawi, Associated Press – 1 hr 40 mins ago

CAIRO – Clashes that broke out when a Muslim mob attacked thousands of Christians protesting against the burning of a Cairo church killed at least 13 people and wounded about 140, security and hospital officials said Wednesday.

The Muslims torched the church amid an escalation of tensions between the two religious groups over a love affair between a Muslim and a Christian that set off a violent feud between the couple's families.

The officials said all 13 fatalities died of gunshot wounds.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak to the media.

The late Tuesday night clashes added to a sense of ongoing chaos in Egypt after the momentous 18-day democracy uprising that toppled longtime leader Hosni Mubarak on Feb. 11. The uprising left a security vacuum when police have pulled out from Cairo and several other cities three days into the uprising.

The police have yet to fully take back the streets, something that has left space for a wave of violent crime and lawlessness in some parts of the nation.

In a separate incident, at least two people were wounded when rival crowds pelted each other with rocks at Cairo's central Tahrir Square, the uprising's epicenter, according to an Associated Press Television News cameraman at the scene. He said the violence pitted youths camping out at the square to press their demand for a complete break with the ousted regime and another group that is opposed to their continued presence at the square.

The Christian protesters on Tuesday blocked a vital highway, burning tires and pelting cars with rocks. An angry crowd of Muslims set upon the Christians and the two sides fought pitched battles for about four hours.

Mubarak handed power to the military when he stepped down, but the military does not have enough troops to police every street in Cairo, a sprawling city of some 18 million people that, at the best of times, is chaotic.

Even before the uprising unleashed a torrent of discontent, tensions had been growing between Christians and Muslims in this country of 80 million.

On New Year's Day, a suicide bombing outside a Coptic church in the port city of Alexandria killed 21 people, setting off days of protests. Barely a week later, an off-duty policeman boarded a train and shot dead a 71-year-old Christian man and wounding his wife and four others.

Egypt's ruling generals have pledged last week to rebuild the torched church and the country's new prime minister, Essam Sharaf, has met the protesters outside the TV building in downtown Cairo to reassure them that his interim government would not discriminate against them.

But the Christians were not appeased. At least 2,000 of them protested on the highway on Tuesday night and a separate crowd of several hundred has been camping out outside the TV building for days to voice their anger at what they perceive to be official discrimination against them.


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Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on March 13, 2011, 09:02:56 PM
Dwarfs in charge of Israel
The ongoing Arab revolution may reshape the region’s landscape

JERUSALEM IS abuzz with brilliant new ideas. The brightest minds of our political establishment are grappling with the problems created by the ongoing Arab revolution that is reshaping the landscape around us. Here is the latest crop of mind-bogglingly innovative ideas:

Minister of Defense Ehud Barak has announced that he is going to ask the US for a grant of another $20 billion for more state-of-the-art fighter planes, missile boats, a submarine, troop carriers and so on. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu had his picture taken surrounded by female soldiers — like Muammar Qaddafi in the good old days — looking beyond the Jordan River and announcing that the Israeli Army would never ever leave the Jordan Valley. According to him, this occupied strip of land is Israel's vital "security border".

This slogan is as old as the occupation itself. It was part of the celebrated Allon Plan, which was designed to surround the West Bank with Israeli territory. However, times have changed. When Allon was a legendary commander in the 1948 war, he did not even dream of missiles. Today, missiles launched from beyond the Jordan can easily reach my home in Tel Aviv. When Netanyahu declares that we need the Jordan Valley in order to stop the Arabs from smuggling missiles into the West Bank, he is, well, a little bit behind the times.

When the politicians bravely face the new world, the army dares not lag behind. This week, several division commanders announced that they were preparing for Tahrir-style "nonviolent mass uprisings" in the West Bank. Troops are trained, riot control means are stocked. Our glorious army is being prepared for yet another colonial police job.

To reinforce the mental vigor of the leadership, Netanyahu has now mobilized an awesome intellect: He has appointed Gen. Yaakov Amidror as chief of the National Security Council. Amidror has never hidden his total opposition to a Palestinian state and peace in general. It is only fitting that Netanyahu invited the National Front party, which includes openly fascist elements, to join his government this week. They refused, because Netanyahu is not extreme enough for them.

In the meantime, a dozen top politicians, from Avigdor Lieberman down, have been dusting off moribund plans for "interim agreements."

All in all, political dwarfs, confronted with a revolutionary new reality which they can neither understand nor cope with. Assuming that the Arab world, or a large part of it, is on the road to democracy and social progress, how will this affect our future?

Can we build bridges to such progressive, multiparty societies? Can we persuade them to accept us as a legitimate part of the region? Can we participate in the political and economic emergence of a "New Middle East"? I believe we can. But the absolute, unalterable precondition is that we make peace with the Palestinian people.

It is the conviction of the entire Israeli establishment that this is impossible. As long as they are in charge, it is indeed impossible. But with another leadership, will things be different?

If both sides — and this depends heavily on Israel, the incomparably stronger side — really want peace, peace is there for the asking. All the requirements are lying plainly on the table. They have been discussed endlessly. The points for compromise are clearly marked. It would need no more than a few weeks to work out the details. Borders, Jerusalem, settlements, refugees, water, security — we all know by now what the solutions are. What is lacking is the political will. A peace agreement — signed by the PLO, ratified in a popular referendum, accepted by Hamas — will radically change the attitude of the Arab peoples in general toward Israel. Not one of the ongoing uprisings in the various Arab countries is anti-Israeli by nature. However, as long as the occupation of Palestinian territory goes on, the Arab masses will reject conciliation with Israel.

One argument against peace, endlessly repeated by our official propaganda, is that Hamas will never accept it. The specter of Islamist movements in other countries winning democratic elections — as Hamas did in Palestine — is painted on the wall as a mortal danger.

It may be worthwhile remembering that Hamas was effectively created by Israel in the first place. During the first decades of the occupation, the military governors forbade any kind of Palestinian political activity, but the military governors were told to encourage Islamist organizations, as a counterforce to the PLO, the main enemy.

The emergence of Hezbollah was also a result of Israeli actions. When Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 in order to destroy the PLO mini-state in the south of the country, it created a vacuum that was soon filled by the newly founded Hezbollah. 

Both Hamas and Hezbollah aspire to power in their respective countries. That is their main aim. For both, the fight against Israel is more a means than an end. Once peace is achieved, their energies will be directed to the struggle for power in their own countries.

Will Hamas accept peace? It has declared as much in a roundabout way: If the Palestinian Authority makes peace, they have declared, and if the peace agreement is ratified by a Palestinian referendum, Hamas will accept it as an expression of the people's will. The same goes for all the Islamic movements in the various Arab countries.

With a peace treaty freely accepted by the Palestinians as the satisfaction of their national aspirations, any intervention by other Arab countries will become redundant, if not downright ridiculous. Hezbollah, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt  and similar national religious organizations will concentrate their efforts on gaining power within the new democratic structures.   

With this obstacle removed, Israel will be judged by the Arab masses for what it is, at that time. We shall have the historic chance to take part in the reshaping of the entire region. Our deeds will speak.

More than 50 years ago, the then Crown Prince of Morocco Moulai Hassan — later King Hassan II — made a historic proposal: To invite Israel to join the Arab League. At the time, the idea sounded outlandish and was soon forgotten. Today, with a new Arab world in sight, this utopian vision is suddenly looking more realistic. Yes, after peace, with the free and sovereign State of Palestine becoming a full member of the UN, a reformed regional structure , including Israel, perhaps Turkey and, in due course, Iran, will move into the realm of reality.

A region with open borders, with commercial activity and economic cooperation flourishing from Marrakesh to Mosul, from Haifa to Aden, within a generation or two — yes, that is one of the possibilities opened by the current earth-shaking events.

Can this happen? Will it happen? "Realists" will shake their heads — as they did before the Germans tore down their wall, before Boris Yeltsin climbed on that tank and before the Americans elected an Afro-American president whose middle name is Hussein.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Capt Pat on March 17, 2011, 10:53:15 PM
A no fly zone resolution has just been imposed by the UN over Libya. So Ghadaffis advance eastwards may come to a halt short of Benghazzi
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Pangurban on March 18, 2011, 01:47:15 AM
Too little too late, and will have no real effect
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on March 18, 2011, 09:18:52 AM
A no fly zone resolution has just been imposed by the UN over Libya. So Ghadaffis advance eastwards may come to a halt short of Benghazzi

day late, dollar short, what's left of the rebels will be lucky to hold the last city they have ffs
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Banana Man on March 18, 2011, 09:19:39 AM
plus i would say gaddaffi will go hell for leather over the next few hours to do as much damage as possible before is planes and choppers are nullified
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on March 18, 2011, 10:46:02 AM


A really poor letter from the Israeli ambassador today in the Irish Times.
He admits Israel murdered 650 Gazans in 2008 but then accuses Iran of murder. 
Israel's key thesis - that the Muslims are all insane children incapable of democracy- is falling apart.

 

•   Madam, – On Friday last, Palestinian militants broke into the home of a family living in the Jewish community of Itamar in the West Bank and – with knives – proceeded to slaughter the couple and their children, one of whom was a little baby.
Meanwhile, in Monday’s Irish Timesthere were two accusatory pieces fiercely hostile to Israel.
I will not go into details disputing Dr Hikmat Ajjuri’s history lecture on Israel and the Peace Process (Opinion, March 14th); that ground has been covered many times before. But I must respond to some of his insinuations and implications.
He says that Israel ever since its foundation has brainwashed its people with paranoia and created a “religion of the Holocaust” to maintain a sense of victimhood. As for the State of Israel inculcating paranoia into its people, the truth is it never had to: the environment in which Israel exists, and the attitudes it faces, for over 60 years have fostered that climate of insecurity. After all, Israel’s right to exist is recognised by only two of the 22 states in the Arab League, it had to fight five wars for national survival, and endure decades of systematic terrorism, while last Friday a family was slaughtered by thugs in their own home because they were Jewish. That is why Israelis are somewhat concerned about their security.
The holocaust is not a “religion” – it is the worst event in humanity’s history – the systematic murder of six million people. Add to this the fact that since the establishment of the state of Israel 25,000 Israelis have been killed in wars and by terrorism.
I must also protest at the use of the egregious term “genocide” to describe Israel’s actions in operation Cast-Lead. Of the 1,300 deaths in that operation, even Hamas admits that more than half of them were Hamas fighters. Genocide means the systematic extermination of a race of people. What kind of “genocide” is it if during the year 2009 alone Israeli hospitals treated 10,000 Palestinians?
Contrary to what Dr Ajjuri stated, Israel is genuine in its desire for permanent peace with the Palestinians and the creation of an independent Palestinian state that will be no threat to Israel’s security. We are all tired of this conflict and want peace. However, and as the people of Ireland know from their own experience, conflict resolution can only ever happen when the two sides behave like adults and sit down and talk face to face. The Palestinian Authority has made excuse after excuse for years to avoid doing so.
If Dr Ajjuri’s article was disappointing, the Iranian ambassador’s letter was a sick joke. He stated that the Islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 paved the way for freedom and democracy in the Middle East! In fact, it ushered in what is today one of the most appalling dystopian regimes in the world – a regime which suppresses opposition, indulges in murder and torture of dissidents, applies rape and beatings by police in its jails, hangs homosexuals, brutalises women into a status of outright inferiority and control, rigs elections (as in 2009), and enforces the most fanatic totalitarian version of Islamism on the planet. To say Iran is a champion of human liberty is like saying Jack the Ripper was a feminist! Your readers don’t need moral lessons from a regime like that. – Yours, etc,

BOAZ MODAI,
Ambassador of Israel,
Embassy of Israel,
Pembroke Road,
Ballsbridge,
Dublin 4 ,
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on March 18, 2011, 01:46:02 PM


A really poor letter from the Israeli ambassador today in the Irish Times.
He admits Israel murdered 650 Gazans in 2008 but then accuses Iran of murder. 
Israel's key thesis - that the Muslims are all insane children incapable of democracy- is falling apart.



And injured a further 10,000 more.

In the interests of balanced reporting, we should be told how many Israelies were injured and killed in this battle.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on March 19, 2011, 12:57:15 PM
Gaddafis forces are attacking Benghazi. This no-fly-zone isn't going to do much.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on March 20, 2011, 10:47:23 AM
What if Arabs had recognized the State of Israel in 1948?
I HAVE been exposed to Palestinians since I was in first grade in Al-Hassa, Saudi Arabia They were my favorite teachers. They were the most dedicated and the most intelligent among all my instructors, from elementary to high school.

When I was attending New York-based SUNY Maritime college (1975-1979), I read a lot of books about Palestinians, Arabs and the Israelis. I have read every article about the many chances the Palestinians had and missed to solve their problem, especially the Camp David agreement between Egypt and Israel.

I have seen and read about the lives of the Palestinians in the US and other places. They are very successful in every field. And at the same time I saw the Arab countries at the bottom of the list in education and development. And I always ask the question: What if the Palestinians and the Arabs accepted the presence of Israel on May 14, 1948 and recognized its right to exist? Would the Arab world have been more stable, more democratic and more advanced?

If Israel was recognized in 1948, then the Palestinians would have been able to free themselves from the hollow promises of some Arab dictators who kept telling them that the refugees would be back in their homes and all Arab lands will be liberated and Israel will be sent to the bottom of the sea. Some Arab leaders used the Palestinians for their own agenda to suppress their own people and to stay in power.

Since 1948, if an Arab politician wanted to be the hero and the leader of the Arab world, then he has a very easy way to do it. He just shouts as loud as he can about the intention to destroy Israel, without mobilizing one soldier (Talk is cheap).

If Israel was recognized in 1948, then there would have been no need for a coup in Egypt against King Farouq in 1952 and there would have been no attack on Egypt in 1956 by The UK, France and Israel. Also there will be no war in June 1967 and the size of Israel will not be increased and we, the Arabs would not have the need for a UN resolution to beg Israel to go back to the pre-1967 borders. And no war of attrition between Egypt and Israel that caused more casualties on the Egyptian side than the Israeli side.

After the 1967 war, Israel became a strategic ally of the US because before this war, the US was not as close to Israel as people in the Arab world think. The Israelis fought in that war using mainly French and British weapons. At that time, the US administrations refused to supply Israel with more modern aircraft and weapon systems such as the F-4 Phantom.

The Palestinian misery was also used to topple another stable monarchy, this time in Iraq and replacing it with a bloody dictatorship in one of the richest countries of the world. Iraq is rich in minerals, water reserves, fertile land and archaeological sites. The military led by Abdul Karim Qassim killed King Faisal II and his family. Bloodshed in Iraq continued and this Arab country has seen more violent revolutions and one of them was carried out in the 1960s by a brigade that was sent to help liberate Palestine. Instead it made a turn and went back and took over Baghdad. Even years later, Saddam Hussien said that he will liberate Jerusalem via Kuwait. He used Palestinians misery as an excuse to invade Kuwait.

If Israel were recognized in 1948, then the 1968 coup would not have taken place in another stable and rich monarchy (Kingdom of Libya). King Idris was toppled and Muammar Qaddafi took over.

There were other military coups in the Arab world such as Syria, Yemen and the Sudan. And each one of them used Palestine as their reason for such acts. The Egyptian regime of Jamal Abdul Nasser used to call the Arab Gulf states backward states and he tried to topple the governments of these Gulf states by using his media and his military forces. He even attacked southern borders of Saudi Arabia using his air force bases in Yemen.

Even a non-Arab country (Iran) used Palestine to divert the minds of their people from internal unrest. I remember Ayatollah Khomeini declaring that he would liberate Jerusalem via Baghdad and President Ahmadinejad making bellicose statements about Israel, though not even a single fire cracker was fired from Iran toward Israel.

Now, the Palestinians are on their own. Each Arab country is busy with its own crisis. From Egypt, Tunisia, Libya, Sudan, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, Somalia, Algeria, Lebanon and the Gulf states. For now, the Arab countries have put the Palestinian-Israeli conflict on hold.

—Abdulateef Al-Mulhim, is Commodore (Retd.), Royal Saudi Navy. He is based in Alkhobar, Saudi Arabia, and can be contacted at: almulhimnavy@hotmail.com
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Franko on May 11, 2011, 12:46:46 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 11, 2011, 06:01:36 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Whats the betting that there are at least four regular posters on here scouring the internet looking for articles about "US and Israeli infiltration of the revolution"   :-\
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 11, 2011, 06:08:24 AM
Gaddafis forces are attacking Benghazi. This no-fly-zone isn't going to do much.

So you think there should be more engagement by Nato in this conflict ? What do you think the next steps should be ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on May 11, 2011, 07:41:49 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Hang on, did they not just get rid of a dictatorship?

There are a few extreme elements involved that are stoking up tension between the Copts and Muslims.

Did anyone honestly think after toppling the leadership of a country that it was going to be plain(plane?) sailing towards the next? Countries are unfortunately usually forged in the blood of its people.

Such are the birth pains of a new nation.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 08:07:08 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork? 

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 08:11:11 AM
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/when-youre-64.html#more-42392

When you’re 64
by Morgan on May 11, 2011
 

A song for Israel on its 63rd birthday:

When you get older, dear Israel,
Just another year from now,
Will you still be colonizing Palestine?
Building "fences" over the line?

Who'll be the warhawk banging the drum,
Bibi or Avigdor?
Will you still need me, will you recede me,
When you're 64?

oh oh oh oh oh oh
I'll be older too..
And if you show me peace
I could co-exist with you.

But I'm just the terrorist lightin' the fuse
When all our lights are gone.
Have to do my homework by the fireside,
Won't you teach me how to divide?

When you're done cleansing the Jordan Valley,
Will you ask for more?
Will you still need me, will you still bleed me,
When you're 64?

Every May you throw a party celebrating victory,
at who's expense?
Stateless refugees!
Grandchildren on their knees,
Still victims of your defense!

Send you a lawsuit, throw you a stone,
Whatever makes it through
I'll indicate precisely what I mean to say,
Yours sincerely, Wasting Away

Answer my question, take me your leave,
Occupation no more!
Will you still need me, oh won't you cede me,
Insh'allah before,
You...turn...six...ty...four....

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 09:01:24 AM

 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935


Israel has used a covert procedure to cancel the residency status of 140,000 West Bank Palestinians between 1967 and 1994, the legal advisor for the Judea and Samaria Justice Ministry's office admits, in a new document obtained by Haaretz.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: deiseach on May 11, 2011, 09:50:32 AM

 http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/israel-admits-it-covertly-canceled-residency-status-of-140-000-palestinians-1.360935


Israel has used a covert procedure to cancel the residency status of 140,000 West Bank Palestinians between 1967 and 1994, the legal advisor for the Judea and Samaria Justice Ministry's office admits, in a new document obtained by Haaretz.

If you want to read criticism of Israel, you have to read the Israeli press. Anything like this gets printed in the European or American press, the anti-Semite brand is thrust into the fire.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Franko on May 11, 2011, 09:50:48 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork?

?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 10:36:23 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork?

?

Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: deiseach on May 11, 2011, 10:40:32 AM
Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently.

Indeed. There was a school of thought at the end of the Second World War that Germany would have to be run like provinces in the Roman Republic. It was only when the Soviet Union brought the jackboot down on their occupied zone that it became expedient to allow the Federal Republic to come into existence, and it worked out okay despite everything that had gone before
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 11:20:53 AM
Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently.

Indeed. There was a school of thought at the end of the Second World War that Germany would have to be run like provinces in the Roman Republic. It was only when the Soviet Union brought the jackboot down on their occupied zone that it became expedient to allow the Federal Republic to come into existence, and it worked out okay despite everything that had gone before

did you ever come across After the Reich by Giles McDonogh, Deiseach? he goes into the gruesome story of what happened to the 14 million Germans who were left outside the Germany filletted at the Potsdam conference. 2 million people were murdered and millions of women were  raped.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Franko on May 11, 2011, 01:32:50 PM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork?

?

Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently.

Seafoid,

Where exactly did I 'launch into the Egyptians'.  I posted the facts of the current situation (I dont think any of these would be disputed) and genuinely asked if any of the main supporters of the revolution could see a way forward for Egypt.  What this has to do with the 'ethnic cleansing' of West Cork in the 20's is beyond me.

Yis are fierce touchy lads.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thebigfella on May 11, 2011, 01:57:38 PM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork?

?

Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently.

Seafoid,

Where exactly did I 'launch into the Egyptians'.  I posted the facts of the current situation (I dont think any of these would be disputed) and genuinely asked if any of the main supporters of the revolution could see a way forward for Egypt.  What this has to do with the 'ethnic cleansing' of West Cork in the 20's is beyond me.

Yis are fierce touchy lads.

Yep and of course there was the obligatory dig at Israel too from Seafoid, the boy's on the Obama (EDIT: Osama  :D) thread might have a point  :D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: deiseach on May 11, 2011, 02:08:27 PM
Seafoid,

Where exactly did I 'launch into the Egyptians'.  I posted the facts of the current situation (I dont think any of these would be disputed) and genuinely asked if any of the main supporters of the revolution could see a way forward for Egypt.  What this has to do with the 'ethnic cleansing' of West Cork in the 20's is beyond me.

Yis are fierce touchy lads.

Well, you did ask "where it has all went wrong". To quote Zhou Enlai, it's too early to say. seafoid's point (I think) is that anyone looking at Ireland between 1916 and 1922 would assume that it had gone horribly wrong. And for the hundreds who died and their families it did go wrong. But it worked out okay. As for "where does Egypt go from here", the promise of free and fair elections in September (http://af.reuters.com/article/topNews/idAFJOE72R0BQ20110328) is a good place to travel towards.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 02:29:00 PM
Franko

in fairness you did say

"Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street"

I read that as you can't trust these Arabs and they would have been better off under a dictatorship but apologies if I misinterpreted.  The new Egyptian FM did complain to Israel about blowing up the religious tensions angle.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 11, 2011, 08:35:33 PM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?

Franko

Do you know any protestants in West Cork?

?

Irish history is brutal, Franko. It all gets glossed over but what the Catholics did to the Protestants in
West Cork in the 20s was appalling.  Before launching into the Egyptians it is worth bearing this in mind.
Most Egyptians are tolerant, decent people.   
I don't buy the argument that Arabs are savages incapable of
deciding their futures for themselves.  Israel has been spinning Coptic-Muslim tension for its own ends a lot recently.

Seafoid,

Where exactly did I 'launch into the Egyptians'.  I posted the facts of the current situation (I dont think any of these would be disputed) and genuinely asked if any of the main supporters of the revolution could see a way forward for Egypt.  What this has to do with the 'ethnic cleansing' of West Cork in the 20's is beyond me.

Yis are fierce touchy lads.

Yep and of course there was the obligatory dig at Israel too from Seafoid, the boy's on the Obama thread might have a point  :D

yup, what did I say ? it was inevitable that he would try to link Israel to it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 09:54:48 PM
Here's an example for you, MikeSheehy. You should inform yourself about how Israel works

 DBG April 21, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Shingo,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_Cairo_pogrom

 Chaos4700 April 21, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Speaking of which, Shingo, check the history on that entry. It’s not even a month old! And the citations reference the Jewish Virtual Library and the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.

Israel has been spinning about pogroms in egypt since Mubarak was deposed. There was no 1945 Cairo pogrom either.

Do you know who Beitar Jerusalem are ?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4pzjebgSM&feature=fvsr
We hate Hapoel Tel Aviv, we hate Sakhnin, we hate Arabs
 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 11, 2011, 10:02:22 PM
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3467773,00.html

Beitar Jerusalem fans chanted slogans praising Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassin, Yigal Amir, during a ceremony held before the soccer team's away game against Maccabi Haifa on Sunday.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on May 12, 2011, 01:41:46 AM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?
You simply asked a reasonable question Franko and what do ye get?.... a scattering session, if it's linking
everything under the Sun that goes on in the world to either the US or Israel, they're now reduced to finding
a link between Egypt and Ireland in order to save face  :D

FFS answer the man's question...I'm sure there's more than him that would like to hear an answer to it
..especially having taken a little time to go back over the thread, it's no wonder their all over the place  :D
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 12, 2011, 05:34:43 AM
Here's an example for you, MikeSheehy. You should inform yourself about how Israel works

 DBG April 21, 2011 at 6:42 pm
Shingo,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1945_Cairo_pogrom

 Chaos4700 April 21, 2011 at 8:21 pm
Speaking of which, Shingo, check the history on that entry. It’s not even a month old! And the citations reference the Jewish Virtual Library and the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.

Israel has been spinning about pogroms in egypt since Mubarak was deposed. There was no 1945 Cairo pogrom either.

Do you know who Beitar Jerusalem are ?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL4pzjebgSM&feature=fvsr
We hate Hapoel Tel Aviv, we hate Sakhnin, we hate Arabs

So you are using wikipedia as your "proof" that Israel is behind the recent Muslim v Christian clashes ? ....and are you saying that some moronic soccer fans with links to a right wing movement in Israel is somehow connected with the Muslim v Christian clashes in Egypt ?  ::)

Also, who says there was no Pogrom in Cairo in 1945 ?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/books/chapters/1st-chapter-jihad-and-jew-hatred.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/books/chapters/1st-chapter-jihad-and-jew-hatred.html)

"In 1945 the worst anti-Jewish pogroms in Egypt's history were perpetrated in Cairo. On November 2, 1945, on the anniversary of the Balfour Declaration, demonstrators "broke into the Jewish quarter, plundered houses and shops, attacked non-Muslims, and devastated the adjacent Ashkenazi synagogue before finally setting it on fire." The event left some 400 people injured and a policeman dead. Meanwhile in Alexandria, at least five people were killed in the course of even more violent riots "which according to a British embassy official were clearly anti-Jewish and, to his relief, not directed against the British." A few weeks later Islamist newspapers "launched a frontal attack against Egypt's Jews as being Zionists, Communists, capitalists, bloodsuckers, traffickers in arms, white slave-traders and, more generally, a 'subversive element' in all states and societies", and called for a boycott of Jewish goods."


http://www.sis.gov.eg/vr/figures/english/html/azzam.htm (ftp://http://www.sis.gov.eg/vr/figures/english/html/azzam.htm)

"Abdul Rahman Hassan Azzam (1893 - 1976) was an Egyptian diplomat, with family origins in Egypt. He served as the first secretary-general of the Arab League between 1945 and 1952. Azzam also had a long career as an ambassador and parliamentarian. He was an Egyptian nationalist and one of the foremost proponents of pan-Arab idealism and was passionately opposed to the partition of Palestine. One of Azzam's first acts as secretary-general was to condemn anti-Jewish rioting in Egypt of November 2-3, 1945 during which Jewish and other non-Muslim owned shops were destroyed and the Ashkenazi synagogue in Cairo's Muski quarter was set aflame."

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2011, 09:29:25 AM
Mikesheehy

You have to do better than that. Give me some sources and references on the famous 1945 pogrom when you get a minute. Does Tom Cooney have anything ?

Matthias Küntzel seems to have built a career out of finding Nazism in the Middle East
 
Thttp://www.matthiaskuentzel.de/contents/iranian-antisemitism-stepchild-of-german-national-socialismhe
Israel Journal of Foreign Affairs IV:1, January 2010
Iranian Antisemitism: Stepchild of German National Socialism

How incredible that this thesis finds such a welcome home in Israel. I can't understand that.

http://www.powerbase.info/index.php?title=Matthias_K%C3%BCntzel
Matthias Küntzel (born 1955), is a German author and a political scientist best known for his belief that Islamists movements are essentially fascistic and anti-Semitic and thus comparable with the Third Reich.

Do you believe the Muslim Brotherhood and Hamas are the Third Reich too ?   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2011, 09:43:41 AM
Ayn Rand, the poster woman of neoliberalism, on why the Arabs will never make anything of themselves.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uHSv1asFvU

Very interesting to watch post Tahrir Square
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2011, 03:31:38 PM
Here is Jew hating antisemite Jew Carlo Strenger writing in the Jew hating antisemitic Israeli rag Ha'aretz but what would he know, the hate-filled bigot ? 


The right’s insistence on the status quo is not only risky, it will unfailingly lead to the end of Israel’s existence as a democratic country with a Jewish character. It has proven to be incapable of dealing with Hamas, Hezbollah or any of Israel’s other major security threats.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/strenger-than-fiction/israel-has-only-one-option-when-it-comes-to-iran-1.361290



and Gideon Levy :

Anyone who says "it's not apartheid" is invited to reply: Why is an Israeli allowed to leave his country for the rest of his life, and nobody suggests that his citizenship be revoked, while a Palestinian, a native son, is not allowed to do so? Why is an Israeli allowed to marry a foreigner and receive a residency permit for her, while a Palestinian is not allowed to marry his former neighbor who lives in Jordan? Isn't that apartheid? Over the years I have documented endless pitiful tragedies of families that were torn apart, whose sons and daughters were not permitted to live in the West Bank or Gaza due to draconian rules - for Palestinians only.
Take Dalal Rasras, for example, a toddler with cerebral palsy from Beit Omar, who was recently separated from her mother for months only because her mother was born in Rafah. Only after her case was publicized did Israel let the mother return to her daughter "beyond the letter of the law" - the cruel letter of the law that does not permit residents of Gaza to live in the West Bank, even if they have made their homes there.


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on May 12, 2011, 06:02:26 PM
Are we now seeing a case of 'be careful what you wish for' in Egypt?  Christians and Muslims are fighting against each other in the street, food prices have doubled and there are widespread protests at the leadership of Tantawi and Sharaf.  The vibrant tourist industry has been ruined for years to come, unemployment has increased and over 800 people have had to die to achieve this.
I'm genuinely interested in hearing the views of those who were most vocal in their support of the revolution on where it has all went wrong / where does Egypt go from here?
You simply asked a reasonable question Franko and what do ye get?.... a scattering session, if it's linking
everything under the Sun that goes on in the world to either the US or Israel, they're now reduced to finding
a link between Egypt and Ireland in order to save face  :D

FFS answer the man's question...I'm sure there's more than him that would like to hear an answer to it
..especially having taken a little time to go back over the thread, it's no wonder their all over the place  :D
Bump...  ;)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 12, 2011, 07:05:08 PM
i dont want to get involved in this debate (if you can call it that) but TO you of all people should not be pointing out one posters lack of an answer to a question  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on May 12, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote
i dont want to get involved in this debate
Shocker..of course you don't, that's my point!
Some here had plenty to say at the time about how wonderful it
was but now of course that it's been a case of out of the pan
and into the fire, it's staring at the shoes while mumbling incoherently time for ye ::)
Quote
but TO you of all people should not be pointing out one posters lack of an answer to a question
In Gallsman's own words "Sorry, I don't bother to answer pointless, idiotic questions."
What's good for the goose is good for the gander or are the rules different for me :-\
But what question is it that I'm supposed to have left unanswered ???

Lord knows I get a lot of them from the relay team here in a meager attempt
to keep me back on my heels...not easy keeping up you see.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 12, 2011, 08:17:17 PM
Wasn't there a civil war when the brits were put out of the us and same in Ireland. Obviously it would have been better to stay enslaved under British rule rather than depart down the rocky road to self determination and democracy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on May 12, 2011, 08:33:19 PM
Wasn't there a civil war when the brits were put out of the us and same in Ireland. Obviously it would have been better to stay enslaved under British rule rather than depart down the rocky road to self determination and democracy.
Thought you were ignoring me  :-\ But now that I have your attention, question;
What foreign aggressor was Egypt in need of ousting here?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 12, 2011, 09:01:26 PM
Wasn't there a civil war when the brits were put out of the us and same in Ireland. Obviously it would have been better to stay enslaved under British rule rather than depart down the rocky road to self determination and democracy.
Thought you were ignoring me  :-\ But now that I have your attention, question;
What foreign aggressor was Egypt in need of ousting here?

Mubarak's Egypt was a client state of the US . Why do you think Egypt had a contract selling gas at significantly below market prices to Israel, TO, while 40% of Egyptians lived on less than $2 a day?  You must know how many suspects on your glorious War on Terror were waterboarded in Egypt.

Why do you think Israel begged the Egyptians to keep Mubarak and warned the EU aabout saying anything negative about him? Why did Peres call Mubarak a statesman ?

Egypt kicked out Mubarak and Suleiman because the US poodle role delivered nothing for the people.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: PadraicHenryPearse on May 12, 2011, 09:14:41 PM
Quote
i dont want to get involved in this debate

Shocker..of course you don't, that's my point!
Some here had plenty to say at the time about how wonderful it
was but now of course that it's been a case of out of the pan
and into the fire, it's staring at the shoes while mumbling incoherently time for ye

Firstly the debate i didn't want to get invovled in was the seafoid/msheedy ramblings who were posting links to support their general arguments without actually adressing each other in any meaningful way.

I don't remember once commenting on how there would be a peaceful transition but you go ahead and lump me in with "ye".  it fits your case so it has to be right  ::)

you ignored what was Obama hiding question i asked. You then as usual turned it back on me. I gave an answer but you suddenly disappeared from that thread. On a Smaller matter you were asked were you male or female? a Simple question for most but you again refused to answer. Now that probably falls into idoitic/pointless question category but it is in keeping with your general posts.

I've questioned you on this before your need to insult and demean other opinion rather that answer questions or give your own opinions, your use of smileys etc. I've now started to use them when replying to you. Which you didnt seem to like either.

As always a pleasure TO  :-\
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 13, 2011, 10:01:30 PM
Videos on Israel's  1948 ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population of the Holy Land.
 
http://nakbasurvivor.imeu.net/


It wasn't Palestinians who ran the gas chambers.
And the vast majority of Jews didn't live in Palestine either.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 14, 2011, 06:31:30 AM
Videos on Israel's  1948 ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population of the Holy Land.
 
http://nakbasurvivor.imeu.net/


It wasn't Palestinians who ran the gas chambers.
And the vast majority of Jews didn't live in Palestine either.

Its quite sickening how you hide your obvious anti-semitism behind the palestinian-Israeli conflict. No right thinking person disputes that the Palestinians were shafted and that Israel has a lot to answer for (as do Hamas and all other extremists) . However,  your totally one-eyed stance on this conflict points at a deeper motive. You have yet to retract your statement that Israel has no right to exist and, given the troubling implications of that statement, you are hardly in a position to lecture the board about who ran the gas chambers  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2011, 04:09:56 PM
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/palestinians-are-driving-the-train-of-history-now-beinart-acknowledges.html#more-42829

Palestinians are driving the train of history now, Beinart acknowledges
by Philip Weiss on May 16, 2011

Peter Beinart has a good piece at Daily Beast.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2011-05-16/israels-palestinian-arab-spring-jews-and-americans-losing-ability-to-shape-mideast/

Yes I've been saying this for a while. But a good thing that he and the mainstream are waking up. Not denying the moment. This is the greatest wisdom of Rabbi Hillel, readers: If not now, when? (Oh by the way Sullivan is hip too.)
What hit Israel yesterday was the Palestinian version of the Arab spring. Something fundamental has changed. I grew up believing that we—Americans and Jews—were the shapers of history in the Middle East....

For millennia, we [Jews] had been acted upon. Mere decades earlier, American Jews had watched, trembling and inarticulate, as European Jews were destroyed. But it was that very impotence that made possible the triumph of Zionism, a movement aimed at snatching history’s reins from gentiles, and perhaps even God. Beginning in the early 20th century, Zionists created facts on the ground. Sometimes the great powers applauded; sometimes they condemned, but acre by acre, Jews seized control of their fate. As David Ben-Gurion liked to say, “Our future does not depend on what gentiles say but on what Jews do.” The Arabs reacted with fury, occasional violence, and in Palestine, a national movement of their own. But they could rarely compete, either politically or militarily. We went from strength to strength; they never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

That world is gone. America and Israel are no longer driving history in the Middle East; for the first time in a long time, Arabs are.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 16, 2011, 07:42:29 PM
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/palestinians-are-driving-the-train-of-history-now-beinart-acknowledges.html#more-42829

That world is gone. America and Israel are no longer driving history in the Middle East; for the first time in a long time, Arabs are.

..until, of course, events happen that do not fit in with your neat little narrative (e.g recent muslim v Copt clashes) , in which case Arabs will then, suddenly, not be in control of their own destiny and , instead it will be a sinister US/zionist conspiracy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 16, 2011, 09:15:53 PM
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/05/palestinians-are-driving-the-train-of-history-now-beinart-acknowledges.html#more-42829

That world is gone. America and Israel are no longer driving history in the Middle East; for the first time in a long time, Arabs are.

..until, of course, events happen that do not fit in with your neat little narrative (e.g recent muslim v Copt clashes) , in which case Arabs will then, suddenly, not be in control of their own destiny and , instead it will be a sinister US/zionist conspiracy.

That was actually written by a Zionist. But you wouldn't know that, would you?
How long do you give apartheid in the West Bank? 
 
  instead it will be a sinister US/zionist conspiracy.
It's not a conspiracy. It's business.

you weren't at the Herzliya conference in 2002 by any chance? do you know where Herzliya is by the way?

 
http://www.herzliyaconference.org/eng/?CategoryID=85&ArticleID=14

The Struggle Against Radical Islamism

Just as Fascism and Communism were defeated, so should radical Islam. However, since terror is only a syndrome of the phenomenon, the fight against it cannot be restricted to military campaigns and attacks on specific targets. It must be led by the United States and conducted more comprehensively:

·         An ideological war of ideas must be waged in order to achieve international de-legitimization of the ideas of radical Islam. The international community must place the war against evil and murderous ideas at the focus of moral imperatives of our times and to modify international law accordingly.

·         The Muslims themselves must lead the ideological struggle. The United States must motivate Muslim states to stand up to radical Islamist extremism.


War Against Dictatorships that Develop WMD

This war is linked to the war against terror and its rationale is as follows: if terrorism and the countries supporting it are a serious problem, then the most serious damage could be incurred by the WMD that dictatorial regimes are developing. Therefore, the campaign of counter-proliferation of WMD is one of the most    important challenges for the United States, particularly if such weapons reach terrorist organizations. This is the basis of the “axis of evil” concept.

Terror     

Along with its obvious characteristics, contemporary international terror is characterized by the ability of a decreasing number of individuals to cause increasing damage and even extreme damage to the Western economy. Today, 100 to 200 people can kill one million human beings and shortly, fifty people with bio-technological know-how will be able to kill ten million. We are only at the inception of a watershed in human history that will motivate a far-reaching revolution in international relations, international law, strategy and military doctrine. The necessity to fight against terrorism will be the main component of defense policies throughout the world.


This whole philosophy died in Iraq.  The upshot was the revoluition in Egypt. America lost the Arabs. 
 But never mind. You can still go to the AIPAC conference this year.

Confirmed Speakers Include:
The Honorable Barack Obama
President of the United States
The Honorable Benjamin Netanyahu
Prime Minister, State of Israel
The Honorable John Boehner (R-OH)
Speaker of the House, U.S. House of Representatives
The Honorable Harry Reid (D-NV)
Majority Leader, U.S. Senate

http://www.aipac.org/pc/breakout1.asp

Strategic Challenges - Political Earthquakes in the Arab World
Throughout the Arab world, protesters have taken to the streets in unprecedented numbers to demand political change. What changes are Arab societies across the Middle East and North Africa seeking, and how are regimes in the region responding? Will these uprisings follow in the footsteps of past revolutions in Iran and Lebanon? Our panel examines these recent events and analyzes the implications for U.S. and Israeli interests.

Strategic Challenges - Impact of Sanctions on Iran
Iran is feeling the pressure from international sanctions targeting the country's illicit nuclear program. In the past year, a decrease in revenue has forced the Islamic theocracy to quadruple gasoline prices and remove other government subsidies. How vulnerable is the Iranian regime to deeper sanctions? Can it maintain its grip on power, while continuing its ambitious weapons program? This session examines these critical issues.

Strategic Challenges - Continued Threat from Gaza
Nearly three years have passed since Israel launched defensive operations in the Hamas-run Gaza Strip. Since then, the terrorist group has rearmed with long-range rockets and have increased their attacks on Israel. What are Israel's options in dealing with Hamas? And what does political upheaval in Egypt, which also borders Gaza, mean for security in the region? This session examines the danger from Gaza and its regional implications.

Enduring Partnership - Israeli Ingenuity Helping to Secure America
The reality of life in Israel has forced the Jewish state to become a leader in designing techniques and technologies in the arenas of homeland security and counter-terrorism. Learn more about how Israel is working with U.S. government and private entities to develop technologies and equipment aimed at thwarting terrorism and safeguarding citizens from both nations.

Enduring Partnership - The Changing Face of the Pro-Israel Movement
Israel is not just an issue of concern to the Jewish community. Greater numbers of Americans from all backgrounds are becoming involved in the pro-Israel movement. This session will explore why Latinos, African Americans and religiously motivated pro-Israel Christians support the U.S.-Israel relationship and how they are expressing their support.


The History Of - The U.S.-Israel Alliance
From foreign aid to strategic cooperation, this session analyzes the major milestones, achievements and failures in the historic U.S.-Israel relationship. We delve into the roles that Congress and the executive branch have played in developing America's special relationship with the Jewish state.

 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 17, 2011, 10:00:55 AM
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/former-un-envoy-israel-s-international-status-at-all-time-low-1.362185

Israel's current status at the United Nations is at an all-time low, Israel's former UN ambassador, Prof. Gabriela Shalev, said yesterday at a session of the Knesset's Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee.

"Israel has no chance of dealing with the Palestinian move in the General Assembly," Shalev said, discussing the Palestinians' expected declaration of statehood after a UN vote this September. "The United States is not interested in vetoing the UN's recognition of a Palestinian state." Shalev added that the UN is today the foremost place for activity against Israel.

Israel's government is hiding its head in the sand," Mofaz said. "Without a peace initiative, events like the one on the Syrian border will recur in September.

"The changes here are tectonic," he added. "The events are a precursor to the September events, which could come in waves against Israel's population."

Mofaz said Israel should not have waited for Sunday's clashes to understand that the reality in the Middle East has changed.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 19, 2011, 04:57:52 PM
Things have changed a lot in a year

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n20/karma-nabulsi/diary

But whenever a proper discussion begins, the suddenly lowered voices of our frustrated young people, many of them at the heart of the fierce protests on university campuses and in rights campaigns elsewhere, have the same tone I used to hear in the voices of our young ambulance workers in Lebanon in the 1970s and 1980s: an elegiac gentleness towards the hopelessly wounded, towards those who were already beyond repair.

And today

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/19/nakba-day-palestinian-summer

It was the moment for which we had all been holding our breath for decades – for 63 years to be precise. Palestinians everywhere watched the unfolding scene transfixed and awed. The camera followed the movements of a small group of people advancing from the mass of protesters. They were carefully making their way down a hill towards the high fence that closed off the mined field separating Syria from its own occupied territory of the Golan that borders historic Palestine, now Israel.

They were mostly young Palestinians, drawn from the 470,000-plus refugee community in Syria: from Yarmouk refugee camp inside Damascus, from Khan el-Sheikh camp outside it, from Deraa and Homs refugee camps in the south, from Palestinian gatherings all over the country.

Slowly, and in spite of the shouted warnings from the villagers from Majdal Shams about the lethal landmines installed by the Israeli military right up to the fence, these remarkable ordinary young people – Palestinian refugees – began to both climb and push at the fence. We were going home.

It was a profoundly revolutionary moment, for these hundreds of young people entering Majdal Shams last Sunday made public the private heart of every Palestinian citizen, who has lived each day since 1948 in the emergency crisis of a catastrophe. Waiting, and struggling, and organising for only two things: liberation and return.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on May 20, 2011, 11:14:35 PM
Obama called for Israel to pull back to the 1967 borders. But its only a statement how far he will push for it is hard to know.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/obama-warns-arab-dictators-and-demands-israel-pulls-back-2286710.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Capt Pat on June 07, 2011, 09:16:26 PM
Time to stick a fork in the President of Yemen. He is done. A 69 year old with 40 per cent burns bleeding under his skull and a three inch piece of shrapnel under his heart. They kept it quiet about the extent of his injuries at first but the severity of these injuries at his age make it look like there is no way back.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on August 02, 2011, 07:50:16 PM
Where are the resident anti US/Israel humanitarians ::) on this
horifying situation in Syria ???

"The death toll since the start of the uprisingon March 15th is estimated to be approaching 2,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians. Out of that total, more than 130 have reportedly been killed in the two days since Sunday, when the Syrian troops stormed Hama with tanksshelling residential areas in the country's fourth-biggest city with a population of 800,000 people."
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Tyrones own on August 03, 2011, 05:27:53 PM
Somebody...anybody, wow what a shocker  :-[
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Eamonnca1 on August 03, 2011, 06:47:34 PM
Where are the resident anti US/Israel humanitarians ::) on this
horifying situation in Syria ???

"The death toll since the start of the uprisingon March 15th is estimated to be approaching 2,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians. Out of that total, more than 130 have reportedly been killed in the two days since Sunday, when the Syrian troops stormed Hama with tanksshelling residential areas in the country's fourth-biggest city with a population of 800,000 people."
Last I heard that dictator in Syria has killed 1600 of his own people since they had the audacity to ask for an accountable government. It wouldn't surprise me if the toll has risen to 2000. The relative silence of the west on this will be remembered in the same bracket as Bill Clinton's dithering while Rwanda descended into madness and genocide.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on August 04, 2011, 11:25:07 AM
Where are the resident anti US/Israel humanitarians ::) on this
horifying situation in Syria ???

"The death toll since the start of the uprisingon March 15th is estimated to be approaching 2,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians. Out of that total, more than 130 have reportedly been killed in the two days since Sunday, when the Syrian troops stormed Hama with tanksshelling residential areas in the country's fourth-biggest city with a population of 800,000 people."
Last I heard that dictator in Syria has killed 1600 of his own people since they had the audacity to ask for an accountable government. It wouldn't surprise me if the toll has risen to 2000. The relative silence of the west on this will be remembered in the same bracket as Bill Clinton's dithering while Rwanda descended into madness and genocide.

2000.....over 500,000 were killed in 100 days in Rwanda....and the powers that be did nothing......how many died in Serbia before international intervention?

It is the non action of neighbouring Arab states that never ceases to amaze me.

The UN(US) can't get involved until they sort out Libya I guess
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Capt Pat on August 04, 2011, 11:59:35 AM
Where are the resident anti US/Israel humanitarians ::) on this
horifying situation in Syria ???

"The death toll since the start of the uprisingon March 15th is estimated to be approaching 2,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians. Out of that total, more than 130 have reportedly been killed in the two days since Sunday, when the Syrian troops stormed Hama with tanksshelling residential areas in the country's fourth-biggest city with a population of 800,000 people."
Last I heard that dictator in Syria has killed 1600 of his own people since they had the audacity to ask for an accountable government. It wouldn't surprise me if the toll has risen to 2000. The relative silence of the west on this will be remembered in the same bracket as Bill Clinton's dithering while Rwanda descended into madness and genocide.

2000.....over 500,000 were killed in 100 days in Rwanda....and the powers that be did nothing......how many died in Serbia before international intervention?

It is the non action of neighbouring Arab states that never ceases to amaze me.

The UN(US) can't get involved until they sort out Libya I guess

Not too many died in Serbia. It wasn't until the Kosovo conflict years after Croatia and the Bosnians declared independence that the West decided to stand up for democracy by bombing Serbia.???? The problem is there wasn't enough oil or natural gas in these places for the Americans and Brits to stand up for democracy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on October 07, 2011, 06:42:20 PM
WTF in Afghanistan

where is Tyrone's Own to justify America shooting itself in the groin repeatedly over 10 years?   

Vanity, machismo and greed have blinded us to the folly of Afghanistan


The decade-long retribution exacted on this nation has cost the west dearly – and our old foes laugh at our expense
•   
o   o   Simon Jenkins
o   guardian.co.uk, Thursday 6 October 2011 20.30 BST
o   Article history
 
The first remembrance field dedicated solely to British military personnel who have been killed in Afghanistan since 2001, in Wootton Bassett, Wiltshire. Photograph: Ben Stansall/AFP/Getty Images
Ten years of western occupation of Afghanistan led the UN this week to plead that half the country's drought-ridden provinces face winter starvation. The World Food Programme calls for £92m to be urgently dispatched. This is incredible. Afghanistan is the world's greatest recipient of aid, some $20bn in the past decade, plus a hundred times more in military spending. So much cash pours through its doors that $3m a day is said to leave Kabul airport corruptly to buy property in Dubai.
Everything about Afghanistan beggars belief. This week its leader, Hamid Karzai, brazenly signed a military agreement with India, knowing it would enrage his neighbour, Pakistan, and knowing it would increase the assault on his capital by the Haqqani network, reported clients of Islamabad's ISI intelligence agency. Meanwhile, in Washington, the Pentagon is exulting over its new strategy of drone killing, claiming this aerial "counter-terrorism" can replace the "hearts and minds" counter-insurgency. Down in Helmand, visiting British journalists gather to recite the defence ministry's tired catechism: "We are making real progress on the ground."
The opening decade of the 21st century has been marked by two epic failures by the western powers that so recently claimed victory in the cold war; failures of both intellect and leadership. One is the inability to use the limitless resources of modern government to rescue the west's economy from prolonged recession. The other is the use of an attack on America by a crazed Islamist criminal as an excuse for a retaliatory war embracing a wide swath of the Muslim world. The decade-long punishment of Afghanistan for harbouring Osama bin Laden has been an act of biblical retribution. The demand that it also abandons the habits of history and adopt democracy, capitalism and gender equality was imperial arrogance.
What happened in Afghanistan in the autumn of 2001 has spawned an industry of hindsight, with over a hundred titles of wisdom after the event. We learn of the post-9/11 arguments within the Taliban, many of them old CIA allies. We learn of the possible role of Abdul Haq in Kabul, of Pakistan's intelligence double-dealing, and of the Kandahar jirga of October 2001 which came close to evicting Osama bin Laden.
Yet every counsel of caution in dealing with Afghanistan was disregarded in America's rush for vengeance – even the warning of Donald Rumsfeld that America "had no dog in the Afghan fight" and should avoid nation-building after a punitive raid. A great surge of imperial eagerness seemed to overwhelm Washington, London and Nato, as if the whole of western liberalism were craving a role in the world.
The occupation of Afghanistan has been a catalogue of unrelieved folly. America is spending staggering sums on the war, which it is clearly not winning. Congressional studies show virtually no US aid reaches the local economy, most remaining with contractors in the US or going on security or being stolen. Local democracy has failed, as warlords feud with drug lords and tribal vendettas resurface. The "training of the Afghan police and army" has become a dope-befuddled joke.
Britain's part in this has been dire. The thesis that Whitehall and its NGOs could somehow end Afghan corruption was absurd. Clare Short's mission in 2002 to "eradicate the poppy crop" and Kim Howells' spending of £270m "defeating the drugs trade" were beyond satire. I still have before me John Reid's briefing as gung-ho defence secretary in 2006, that Britain's job was "to build a prosperous, democratic, stable and secure Afghanistan", with British troops "not waging war but helping to rebuild". I recall General Sir David Richards at the time assuring me it would all be over soon in Helmand thanks to his "inkspots" strategy. The conclusion drawn in Frank Ledwidge's book, Losing Small Wars, is that the performance of Britain's 16 Air Assault Brigade in Helmand was "nothing short of disastrous … leaving a legacy of destroyed towns, refugees and civilian casualties". Whitehall's compensation payments to Afghan civilians killed and injured by its troops are doubling each year.
Three hundred and eighty-two British soldiers have died in this war. Can any minister look their families in the eye and claim the loss was worth it? Worth what? Except in garrisoned towns, security in Afghanistan is as bad as ever. British soldiers have been told that they are being withdrawn over the next two years. Since they cannot pretend to have achieved their mission, it makes no sense to leave them in harm's way a moment longer.
The policy now is to "talk to the Taliban", as if it were the German high command on Luneburg Heath. All that is happening is that Karzai's emissaries and Taliban chiefs are seduced into "talks", and then murdered either by their own side or by America's trigger-happy drones. Five of Karzai's negotiators have already been killed, including his brother. The drones are removing one Taliban or al-Qaida leader after another. While it is hard to feel sorry for them, the wrecking of any hierarchy of control replaces a path to peace with renewed vendetta. American policy has turned the tiny cell of Bin Laden's al-Qaida into a global terrorist brand.
What is strange, as Barbara Tuchman wrote, is not the folly of policy as such but its immunity to correction even when known to be folly. Any visitor to Kabul soon learns two things. First that it is senseless to confuse Pashtun nationalism with Taliban insurgency, and that with al-Qaida terrorism. Second, if Nato wants to eradicate a security threat in this part of the world, some accommodation must be made with the mujahideen or, as the Russians found, they will simply win. Accommodation, that is, with their Pakistan sponsors. The only key that unlocks this door is the departure of Nato troops.
As during Vietnam, some wars pass the stage where politicians and generals dare step back and look. Pride, a craving for glory, an aversion to defeat, above all, the institutionalising of the war in its surrounding territory, come to drive strategy. Kabul is occupied by tens of thousands of soldiers, diplomats, NGO officials and contractors. Afghanistan has become a stew of the military/industrial complex, with aid mixed in.
American estimates from Brown University are that some $3.7 trillion will have been spent avenging the 9/11 deaths. Britain's contribution to this stupefying sum is £18.8bn. Whether this spending has prevented another terror attack, whether that would be value for money, or whether the whole venture has been little more than a cruel exercise in vanity, machismo and greed can never be answered, though Bin Laden himself was dealt with quite cheaply. All we know for sure is that revenge has not been sweet, just very expensive.
The irony of this great folly is that its chief beneficiaries are likely to be those who lost the cold war, Russia and China. As the west's leaders struggle to rescue embattled armies and embattled economies from morasses of their own creation, they have left their old foes laughing with glee. Democracy has snatched defeat from the arms of victory – without a shred of a reason.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on October 07, 2011, 06:58:34 PM
Britain  doesn't come out  well either according to President Karzai.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-15217416
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on October 08, 2011, 10:30:08 AM
Cognitive dissonance

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6HjXtpQ6n0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHhECvN2kQI
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mannix on October 08, 2011, 11:05:53 AM
Meanwhile, mitt Romney has declared the yanks need a bigger army to lead and control the world. They have military bases in 134 countries and are very concerned about china building a military, meanwhile they spend more than the next 10 military powers combined. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on December 19, 2011, 10:23:27 AM
Did anyone see what happened in Egypt with that poor woman beaten and kicked by the army. Horrendous stuff.

It's hard to see where things are going in Egypt other than civil war, though hopefully not.

As for the rest of the middle east, Syria & Libya will probably go the same way.

What the future is for Iraq and Afghanistan is hard to say. The US will maintain a presence there with 20,000 personnel in the embassy and control the air space too.

An attack on Iran would be madness but maybe its only being used as a measure for Republican candidates.

If Ron Paul wins and pulls all troops back home (both unlikely) its likely that China and Russia will  step in for an increased share of the oil wealth. Both are on good terms with Tehran as things stand and don;t want the West sticking another straw into their favourite punch bowl.

For the USA/The West, getting a foothold next to the Caspian is the next step in trying to gain more control of the oil and gas movement in the area. It is the Russians main shipping and piping route.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on December 19, 2011, 03:31:13 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075683/Egypt-violence-Female-protesters-brutally-beaten-metal-poles-vicious-soldiers.html

The video is brutal. Animals.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on December 19, 2011, 06:25:48 PM
The day after the Americans leave.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16256830

Arrest warrant for Iraq vice president Tariq al-Hashemi
Mr Hashemi's party has pulled out of Prime Minister Nuri Maliki's unity government An Iraqi judicial committee has issued an arrest warrant for the country's Sunni Arab Vice-President, Tariq al-Hashemi, security officials say.

The warrant was issued under anti-terror laws, officials said.

It came after Mr Hashemi's bodyguards accused him of links with terrorism, an interior ministry spokesman told Reuters news agency.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Groucho on December 22, 2011, 03:23:28 PM
Iraqis definitely better off now  ::) ::) ::) ::)


http://news.uk.msn.com/world/dozens-left-dead-in-baghdad-blasts
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on December 22, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
http://rwac-egypt.blogspot.com/2011/12/when-women-are-undressed.html

And

The media consensus on Israel is collapsing
http://www.salon.com/2011/12/21/the_media_consensus_on_israel_is_collapsing/singleton/

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on January 25, 2012, 10:33:57 AM
This thread was started a year ago today as thousands of people assembled in Tahrir Square, Cairo, demanding the removal of Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian dictator who had ruled the country for decades with an iron fist.

In a matter of weeks, he was gone and now lies in a medical hospital awaiting trial for murder. He faces the death penalty if found guilty.

Since his downfall, the country has been ruled by the military. Elections took place recently and the Muslim Brotherhood as expected, took the most seats. However, the military are still in charge.

Recently, the protests have started up again with the people demanding that the military hand over power, and step aside. Given that the Muslim Brotherhood were not behind the original protests, it comes as no surprise that they are reluctant to take over from the military. There are fears that they will rule just like Mubarak, given time.

I think it's fair to say that the Middle East landscape has changed for good in many countries. Some for the good, others to the bad.

Along with Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria, have all seen major uprising and new leaders installed in most cases.

The situation in Palestine hasn't got any better, and the occupation just keeps spreading, and the killing goes on.

Last year Israel murdered 180 Palestinians, many of them children. Not content with murdering Palestinians, they murdered people in Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Somalia. They demolished over 500 homes and confiscated hundreds of acres of land in the West Bank. And the world did nothing. No sanctions, no charges.

Today, as hundreds of thousands of people gather in Tahrir Square, the Middle East is faced with another potential mass war. The excuse of hitting Iran over the assumption of a nuclear bomb / weapon of mass destruction, is a smoke screen for the real purpose of cutting off their influence in the region and their supply of OIL to China and co. Another regime change on the way..........

Given the fact that Russia and China oppose any attack on Iran, it will be very very interesting to see how this one plays out.

There are decades when nothing happens, and their years when decades happen. I think the past year has certainly seen decades worth of changes.



Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on January 25, 2012, 10:45:10 AM
Some interesting figures:

Egypt has been the second-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid for decades, after Israel (not counting the funds expended on the wars and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan). Mubarak’s regime has received roughly $2 billion per year since coming to power, overwhelmingly for the military.

Where has the money gone? A lot to U.S. corporations.

It’s a form of corporate welfare for companies like Lockheed Martin and General Dynamics, because it goes to Egypt, then it comes back for F-16 aircraft, for M-1 tanks, for aircraft engines, for all kinds of missiles, for guns, for tear-gas canisters [from] a company called Combined Systems International, which actually has its name on the side of the canisters that have been found on the streets there.
Lockheed Martin has been the leader in deals worth $3.8 billion over that period of the last 10 years; General Dynamics, $2.5 billion for tanks; Boeing, $1.7 billion for missiles, for helicopters; Raytheon for all manner of missiles for the armed forces. So, basically, this is a key element in propping up the regime, but a lot of the money is basically recycled. US taxpayers could just as easily be giving it directly to Lockheed Martin or General Dynamics.

Likewise, Egypt’s Internet and cell phone “kill switch” was enabled only through collaboration with corporations. U.K.-based Vodafone, a global cellular-phone giant (which owns 45 percent of Verizon Wireless in the U.S.) attempted to justify its actions in a press release: “It has been clear to us that there were no legal or practical options open to Vodafone ... but to comply with the demands of the authorities.”

Narus, a U.S. subsidiary of Boeing Corp., sold Egypt equipment to allow “deep packet inspection,”. Narus technology “allows the Egyptian telecommunications companies ... to look at texting via cell phones, and to identify the sort of dissident voices that are out there. ... It also gives them the technology to geographically locate them and track them down.”

All of the above is in the public record.

Do you not think its still in the Military's interest to have a pro-US government?

I think they'll be the real obstacle to democracy as even if Mubarack does go by fair means or foul they'll still be behind the scenes protecting their interests.

The figurehead may change but the government will still be in power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebftIo_qu4)

I posted this almost a year a go and its proving very true.

The Egyptian military are probably offering whatever government is elected 'support' providing their budgets (US aid) isn't affected and that'll mean doing the bidding of washington, the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: trileacman on May 27, 2012, 12:29:44 AM
Don't know where else to put this. How long will the UN stand in the background?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18221461 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18221461)

UN observers have counted at least 90 bodies, including 32 children, after a Syrian government attack on a town.

UN mission head Maj-Gen Robert Mood told the BBC the killing in Houla was "indiscriminate and unforgivable".

UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said he would seek a strong global response to the "appalling crime". UN chief Ban Ki-moon said it was a "flagrant violation of international law".

Syria's government has blamed the deaths on "armed terrorist gangs".

This is one of the bloodiest attacks in one area since the uprising against President Bashar al-Assad began in March 2011.

Activists say some of the victims died by shelling, while others were summarily executed, or butchered by the regime militia known as the "shabiha".

UN-Arab League peace envoy Kofi Annan, and the Arab League have also condemned Friday's assault.


France's Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius said he was making immediate arrangements for a Paris meeting of the Friends of Syria group, which includes Western and Arab nations, but not Russia or China, who have blocked previous attempts to introduce UN sanctions.

Fighting in Syria has continued despite the deployment of some 250 UN observers monitoring a ceasefire brokered by Mr Annan - a ceasefire which the BBC's Jim Muir in neighbouring Lebanon says is now "pretty fictional".

The UN says at least 10,000 have been killed since the protests began.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Saffrongael on May 27, 2012, 12:39:09 AM
Yeah some pretty horrific photos of the dead children in tomorrows papers, Syria isn't one of the fashionable Middle East countries to take an interest in unfortunately. Assad should have been taken out long ago.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Arthur_Friend on May 27, 2012, 12:10:50 PM
Yeah some pretty horrific photos of the dead children in tomorrows papers, Syria isn't one of the fashionable Middle East countries to take an interest in unfortunately. Assad should have been taken out long ago.

The difference is that Syria is being rightly condemned by all and sundry as opposed to more 'fashionable' Middle East countries who get a free hand to bomb the f**k out of whoever they like.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2012, 06:37:08 PM
Invading syria would be pointless. Over 50000 libyans died after nato's intervention. the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: puskas on May 27, 2012, 09:58:46 PM
Invading syria would be pointless. Over 50000 libyans died after nato's intervention. the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy.

can you provide a source for this 50,000 number? it has the whiff of bullshit inflated for your own purposes.

"the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy," right, and the only thing an outsider can ever do if another place is going up in smoke is invade it, right. well you'd better turn off your youtube stream so you don't see any of those daily videos of Assad's massacres getting through, might disturb your righteousness.   
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: stew on May 27, 2012, 10:35:50 PM
This thread was started a year ago today as thousands of people assembled in Tahrir Square, Cairo, demanding the removal of Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian dictator who had ruled the country for decades with an iron fist.

In a matter of weeks, he was gone and now lies in a medical hospital awaiting trial for murder. He faces the death penalty if found guilty.

Since his downfall, the country has been ruled by the military. Elections took place recently and the Muslim Brotherhood as expected, took the most seats. However, the military are still in charge.

Recently, the protests have started up again with the people demanding that the military hand over power, and step aside. Given that the Muslim Brotherhood were not behind the original protests, it comes as no surprise that they are reluctant to take over from the military. There are fears that they will rule just like Mubarak, given time.

I think it's fair to say that the Middle East landscape has changed for good in many countries. Some for the good, others to the bad.

Along with Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria, have all seen major uprising and new leaders installed in most cases.

The situation in Palestine hasn't got any better, and the occupation just keeps spreading, and the killing goes on.

Last year Israel murdered 180 Palestinians, many of them children. Not content with murdering Palestinians, they murdered people in Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Somalia. They demolished over 500 homes and confiscated hundreds of acres of land in the West Bank. And the world did nothing. No sanctions, no charges.

Today, as hundreds of thousands of people gather in Tahrir Square, the Middle East is faced with another potential mass war. The excuse of hitting Iran over the assumption of a nuclear bomb / weapon of mass destruction, is a smoke screen for the real purpose of cutting off their influence in the region and their supply of OIL to China and co. Another regime change on the way..........

Given the fact that Russia and China oppose any attack on Iran, it will be very very interesting to see how this one plays out.

There are decades when nothing happens, and their years when decades happen. I think the past year has certainly seen decades worth of changes.

In your world do Israelis ever get killed by Palestinians or is it strictly one way traffic were you come from????

The Israeli's have a lot to answer for, but so do the yanks, the Syrians, the Egyptians, the Brits and everyone else in the region that commit acts of murder, you seem to fail to mention the killing of innocent Israeli's, why is that?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on May 27, 2012, 11:20:33 PM
Invading syria would be pointless. Over 50000 libyans died after nato's intervention. the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy.

can you provide a source for this 50,000 number? it has the whiff of bullshit inflated for your own purposes.

"the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy," right, and the only thing an outsider can ever do if another place is going up in smoke is invade it, right. well you'd better turn off your youtube stream so you don't see any of those daily videos of Assad's massacres getting through, might disturb your righteousness.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/30/libya.war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Remember the excuse given for the carpet bombing  intervention in Libya was the protection of civilians.

The Middle East has been f**ked so many times for the sake of oil and Israel.
Say France and UK intervene in Syria. What would you expect them to achieve?   
And who are the good guys?

Did France invade Northern Ireland during its civil war ? Just wondering. Would it have been better to kill say 30,000 Nordies via a co-ordinated bombing campaign and then see what happened next? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: puskas on May 27, 2012, 11:57:57 PM
Invading syria would be pointless. Over 50000 libyans died after nato's intervention. the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy.

can you provide a source for this 50,000 number? it has the whiff of bullshit inflated for your own purposes.

"the only thing the west can offer the region is hypocrisy," right, and the only thing an outsider can ever do if another place is going up in smoke is invade it, right. well you'd better turn off your youtube stream so you don't see any of those daily videos of Assad's massacres getting through, might disturb your righteousness.

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/08/30/libya.war/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
Remember the excuse given for the carpet bombing  intervention in Libya was the protection of civilians.

The Middle East has been f**ked so many times for the sake of oil and Israel.
Say France and UK intervene in Syria. What would you expect them to achieve?   
And who are the good guys?

Did France invade Northern Ireland during its civil war ? Just wondering. Would it have been better to kill say 30,000 Nordies via a co-ordinated bombing campaign and then see what happened next? 

i wish i could be so certain about things as you. must make life easier.

for a start, estimates of casualties in the Libyan War vary. the estimate you quote from the heat of battle in August is way above any later estimate. the Libyans themselves say 25-30,000 lost their lives, including fighters and civilians.   

carpet-bombing? this is david icke territory. did you see how sarkozy and cameron were received when they set foot in benghazi after the war? bet you hope things get worse and worse there after the elections.

i would try to argue why the UN cannot let Assad continuing butchering his own people, why every case in the Arab Uprisings is different, but I really think there is no point. Intervention is always, in every case evil, right, West is always bad.

France and Northern Ireland. Mmm. Good one.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2012, 04:26:24 AM
This thread was started a year ago today as thousands of people assembled in Tahrir Square, Cairo, demanding the removal of Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian dictator who had ruled the country for decades with an iron fist.

In a matter of weeks, he was gone and now lies in a medical hospital awaiting trial for murder. He faces the death penalty if found guilty.

Since his downfall, the country has been ruled by the military. Elections took place recently and the Muslim Brotherhood as expected, took the most seats. However, the military are still in charge.

Recently, the protests have started up again with the people demanding that the military hand over power, and step aside. Given that the Muslim Brotherhood were not behind the original protests, it comes as no surprise that they are reluctant to take over from the military. There are fears that they will rule just like Mubarak, given time.

I think it's fair to say that the Middle East landscape has changed for good in many countries. Some for the good, others to the bad.

Along with Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria, have all seen major uprising and new leaders installed in most cases.

The situation in Palestine hasn't got any better, and the occupation just keeps spreading, and the killing goes on.

Last year Israel murdered 180 Palestinians, many of them children. Not content with murdering Palestinians, they murdered people in Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Somalia. They demolished over 500 homes and confiscated hundreds of acres of land in the West Bank. And the world did nothing. No sanctions, no charges.

Today, as hundreds of thousands of people gather in Tahrir Square, the Middle East is faced with another potential mass war. The excuse of hitting Iran over the assumption of a nuclear bomb / weapon of mass destruction, is a smoke screen for the real purpose of cutting off their influence in the region and their supply of OIL to China and co. Another regime change on the way..........

Given the fact that Russia and China oppose any attack on Iran, it will be very very interesting to see how this one plays out.

There are decades when nothing happens, and their years when decades happen. I think the past year has certainly seen decades worth of changes.

In your world do Israelis ever get killed by Palestinians or is it strictly one way traffic were you come from????

The Israeli's have a lot to answer for, but so do the yanks, the Syrians, the Egyptians, the Brits and everyone else in the region that commit acts of murder, you seem to fail to mention the killing of innocent Israeli's, why is that?

what he says on here is toned down compared to what he comes out with on here  http://mondoweiss.net/?s=seafoid.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2012, 11:43:18 AM
This thread was started a year ago today as thousands of people assembled in Tahrir Square, Cairo, demanding the removal of Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian dictator who had ruled the country for decades with an iron fist.

In a matter of weeks, he was gone and now lies in a medical hospital awaiting trial for murder. He faces the death penalty if found guilty.

Since his downfall, the country has been ruled by the military. Elections took place recently and the Muslim Brotherhood as expected, took the most seats. However, the military are still in charge.

Recently, the protests have started up again with the people demanding that the military hand over power, and step aside. Given that the Muslim Brotherhood were not behind the original protests, it comes as no surprise that they are reluctant to take over from the military. There are fears that they will rule just like Mubarak, given time.

I think it's fair to say that the Middle East landscape has changed for good in many countries. Some for the good, others to the bad.

Along with Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Yemen, Bahrain, and Syria, have all seen major uprising and new leaders installed in most cases.

The situation in Palestine hasn't got any better, and the occupation just keeps spreading, and the killing goes on.

Last year Israel murdered 180 Palestinians, many of them children. Not content with murdering Palestinians, they murdered people in Iran, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Somalia. They demolished over 500 homes and confiscated hundreds of acres of land in the West Bank. And the world did nothing. No sanctions, no charges.

Today, as hundreds of thousands of people gather in Tahrir Square, the Middle East is faced with another potential mass war. The excuse of hitting Iran over the assumption of a nuclear bomb / weapon of mass destruction, is a smoke screen for the real purpose of cutting off their influence in the region and their supply of OIL to China and co. Another regime change on the way..........

Given the fact that Russia and China oppose any attack on Iran, it will be very very interesting to see how this one plays out.

There are decades when nothing happens, and their years when decades happen. I think the past year has certainly seen decades worth of changes.


yes indeed, Your exultation of the uprising in Syria does not seem to extend to meaningful reform in that country ? You seem happy to support Asssad when he murders his citizens.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on May 28, 2012, 12:12:46 PM
Russia and China have drawn the line at Syria. The "West" can come no further.

Syria is Russia's client and they will have the final say in how this ends. That's how it is. All this talk about what the West and NATO ought to do is irrelevant.

While the Syrians die in great numbers, the real battle is between East and West in the corridors of power. Assad will do what he wants till Russia says stop.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2012, 01:07:31 PM
Russia and China have drawn the line at Syria. The "West" can come no further.

Syria is Russia's client and they will have the final say in how this ends. That's how it is. All this talk about what the West and NATO ought to do is irrelevant.

While the Syrians die in great numbers, the real battle is between East and West in the corridors of power. Assad will do what he wants till Russia says stop.

...till Russia says stop ? hmmm...I thought the US controlled the fate of all nations ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on May 28, 2012, 01:48:39 PM
What has been happening over the past 14 months in Syria has been horrific. Somewhere in the region of 14,000 people have been killed, and there is no sign of any meaningful ceasefire or talks on the horizon.

The massacre on Friday was another one of a long line of dark days in Syria. The sight of the bodies lined up, and the video I watched of the children, is beyond words. In this day and age, to see such barbaric acts been carried out, and see virtually nothing been done is so so wrong.

One main reason that nothing is been done is the fact Russia have used their veto in giving the UN the power to do something. To date, all we have seen is Kofi Anan going into Syria, getting a plan for a ceasefire in place, and see it ignored as the killings continue.

As pointed out above, the situation in Syria is now a East v West power play. Innocent Syrians are the price of this standoff. Iranian support for Assad is another cog in the wheel.

Assad needs to stand down, and quickly. He is a brutal dictator from a family who know no other way than bloodshed to prop themselves up.

How peace is achieved in Syria over the coming months is so hard to predict. A lot of powerful people are at play in this conflict, and they don't have the best interests of the Syrian people in mind when making decisions to prolong this blood bath.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on May 28, 2012, 03:33:25 PM
What has been happening over the past 14 months in Syria has been horrific. Somewhere in the region of 14,000 people have been killed, and there is no sign of any meaningful ceasefire or talks on the horizon.

The massacre on Friday was another one of a long line of dark days in Syria. The sight of the bodies lined up, and the video I watched of the children, is beyond words. In this day and age, to see such barbaric acts been carried out, and see virtually nothing been done is so so wrong.

One main reason that nothing is been done is the fact Russia have used their veto in giving the UN the power to do something. To date, all we have seen is Kofi Anan going into Syria, getting a plan for a ceasefire in place, and see it ignored as the killings continue.

As pointed out above, the situation in Syria is now a East v West power play. Innocent Syrians are the price of this standoff. Iranian support for Assad is another cog in the wheel.

Assad needs to stand down, and quickly. He is a brutal dictator from a family who know no other way than bloodshed to prop themselves up.

How peace is achieved in Syria over the coming months is so hard to predict. A lot of powerful people are at play in this conflict, and they don't have the best interests of the Syrian people in mind when making decisions to prolong this blood bath.

Its not an East v West "power play". Russia has the influence to end this now. To say the role they play is anything less is typical of the weasel words that lads like you engage in all the time.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on June 19, 2012, 11:17:49 PM
In the past 30 minutes, former Egyptian Dictator, Hosni Mubarak, has apparently suffered a stroke, and medical teams have pronounced him "Clinically Dead".

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 20, 2012, 10:15:14 AM
In the past 30 minutes, former Egyptian Dictator, Hosni Mubarak, has apparently suffered a stroke, and medical teams have pronounced him "Clinically Dead".

So you resurrect a month old thread to "announce" to the world an item of news that anyone with an internet connection already knows ?

newsflash for you give her dixie..the middle east conflict is not about you ok ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Nally Stand on June 20, 2012, 10:20:30 AM
In the past 30 minutes, former Egyptian Dictator, Hosni Mubarak, has apparently suffered a stroke, and medical teams have pronounced him "Clinically Dead".

So you resurrect a month old thread to "announce" to the world an item of news that anyone with an internet connection already knows ?

newsflash for you give her dixie..the middle east conflict is not about you ok ?

Nor is this thread about you Mike, you crabbit little fcukwit.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on June 20, 2012, 10:31:58 AM
In the past 30 minutes, former Egyptian Dictator, Hosni Mubarak, has apparently suffered a stroke, and medical teams have pronounced him "Clinically Dead".

Hate to say I was right, but the military will not relinquish power without a fight no matter the democratic will of the people.

The Arab spring is no more than a mirage for the Egyptians.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on June 20, 2012, 10:38:16 AM
In the past 30 minutes, former Egyptian Dictator, Hosni Mubarak, has apparently suffered a stroke, and medical teams have pronounced him "Clinically Dead".

So you resurrect a month old thread to "announce" to the world an item of news that anyone with an internet connection already knows ?

newsflash for you give her dixie..the middle east conflict is not about you ok ?

Nor is this thread about you Mike, you crabbit little fcukwit.

I suppose you are going to go into meltdown about your door been broken down by the brits any minute now.

f**king tosser.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Nally Stand on June 20, 2012, 10:54:34 AM
Ah dry your eyes Mike, all that hate will eat you up. Your already a humpy enough hoor as it is.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on June 21, 2012, 12:57:53 PM
Funny goings on over this docked ship in Scotland.

Are there helicopters on it or not?

West say there is, Russia says there is not.

So where does that leave either side if the other is telling the truth?

And what does it suggest about the theory there is not an east - west power play going on here?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2012, 01:06:56 PM
Following this explosion today, it's fair to say that it will be a game changer in Syria.


Syria conflict: Senior officials die in 'suicide attack'

Syria's defence minister and his deputy, President Assad's brother-in-law, have died in a suspected suicide bombing at security headquarters in Damascus, state TV says.

Daoud Rajiha and Assef Shawkat were attending a meeting of senior officials at the time.

The national security chief and interior minister are said to be critically hurt.

The attack comes amid claims of a major rebel offensive on the city.

"The minister of defence was martyred by the terrorist bombing that targeted the national security building," the TV report said, adding later that Gen Shawkat was dead.

Security sources say the suspected bomber worked as a bodyguard for members of President Bashar al-Assad's inner circle.

Gen Rajiha has been defence minister for less than a year, serving previously as chief of staff, and is on a US blacklist for his role in the suppression of dissent.

He is believed to be an Orthodox Christian - a rarity in the Alawite-dominated Syrian military and government.

Gen Shawkat is considered a top security chief and a member of the inner circle of the regime. He is married to Mr Assad's sister Bushra.

The attack comes as UN chiefs have been trying to persuade China and Russia to agree tougher measures on Syria, ahead of a Security Council vote on Wednesday on imposing sanctions.

UN-Arab League envoy Kofi Annan held talks with Russian President Vladimir Putin in Moscow, and UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon met Chinese leader Hu Jintao in Beijing.

The UN has until Friday to renew the mandate for observers in Syria, although a vote is expected in New York on Wednesday afternoon.

Western nations want a new resolution threatening measures short of the use of force.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-18882149
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2012, 01:43:14 PM
The Israelis will miss the Assads. They were very compliant enemies really.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on July 18, 2012, 01:47:36 PM
The Israelis will miss the Assads. They were very compliant enemies really.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-s-favorite-arab-dictator-of-all-is-assad-1.352468

As strange as it sounds, everyone in Israel loves Arab dictators. When I say everyone I mean both Jews and Arabs. The favorite dictator of all is president Assad. As Assad junior inherited the oppressive regime in Syria, so did both Jews and Arabs transfer their affection for the dictator from Damascus from Assad senior to his son.

Following the intifada in the Arab states, Bashar al-Assad maintained in an interview to the Wall Street Journal that the situation in Syria is different, adding that Syria is not like Egypt. He also emphasized that Syria was not susceptible to sliding into a similar situation, because it was in the "resistance" front and belongs to the anti-American, anti-Israeli axis.

Well, Assad is right. The situation in Syria is indeed different. The Syrian regime is more like Saddam's defunct regime. The Ba'ath Party that ruled Iraq and the one still ruling Syria both held aloft flags of pan-Arab national ideology. But slogans are one thing and reality is another. All the ideological sweet talk was only talk. For the Ba'ath Party, both in Iraq and in Syria, constituted a political platform to perpetuate tribal, ethnic oppression.

Indeed, the situation in Egypt is completely different. If we put aside the Coptic minority, then Egyptian society is homogenous religiously and not tribal at all. The demoted Egyptian president, Mubarak, never had a tribal-ethnic crutch to lean on. The Egyptian army is also different and not at all like the Syrian or Iraqi armies.

For example, when the United States invaded Iraq, the Iraqi army splintered into its tribal and ethnic fragments. The soldiers took off their uniforms and each joined his tribe and ethnic community. Saddam too adhered to those tribal codes. He did not flee Iraq but went to hide in the well-protected areas of his tribesmen. This is what happens in these societies. In the land of the cedars, as soon as the civil war broke out, the Lebanese army dissolved into its ethnic components and disappeared.

True, Syria is not Egypt. Syria is also different in terms of the price in blood inflicted by the tyrannical Syrian regime. The Syrian tribal government is based on the force exercised by the security branches ruled by the tribesmen and their interested allies.

Inherently, a tribal regime of this kind will always be seen as a foreign reign. This kind of reign can be called tribal imperialism, which rules by operating brutal terror and oppression. This is underscored when a minority tribe rules, like in Syria. Thus every undermining of the government is seen as a challenge to the tribal hegemony and a danger to the ruling tribe's survival. Such a regime by its very nature is totally immersed in a bloodbath.

Both Assad senior and Assad junior advocated resistance against Israel. This slogan was hollow, serving the regime merely as an insurance policy against any demand for freedom and democracy. The Syrian "resistance" government has not uttered a peep on the Golan front since 1973. Instead, the "resistance" regime was and still is ready to fight Israel to the last Lebanese, and if that doesn't do the trick - then to the last Palestinian.

As voices in Israel have recently spoken out in favor of Hamas' continued rule in Gaza, so many Israelis are worried these days over the Syrian regime's welfare. Astonishingly, not only Jews are praying secretly for the Damascus regime's survival, but many in the Arab parties as well. These parties' leaders have been dumbstruck, their voices have been muted and no outcry has been raised against the Syrian regime's massacre of civilians.

All the hypocrites, Jews and Arabs alike, have united. It seems Assad has wall-to-wall support here, as though he were king of Israel
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 18, 2012, 02:02:00 PM
The Israelis will miss the Assads. They were very compliant enemies really.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/israel-s-favorite-arab-dictator-of-all-is-assad-1.352468

As strange as it sounds, everyone in Israel loves Arab dictators. When I say everyone I mean both Jews and Arabs. The favorite dictator of all is president Assad. As Assad junior inherited the oppressive regime in Syria, so did both Jews and Arabs transfer their affection for the dictator from Damascus from Assad senior to his son.

Following the intifada in the Arab states, Bashar al-Assad maintained in an interview to the Wall Street Journal that the situation in Syria is different, adding that Syria is not like Egypt. He also emphasized that Syria was not susceptible to sliding into a similar situation, because it was in the "resistance" front and belongs to the anti-American, anti-Israeli axis.

Well, Assad is right. The situation in Syria is indeed different. The Syrian regime is more like Saddam's defunct regime. The Ba'ath Party that ruled Iraq and the one still ruling Syria both held aloft flags of pan-Arab national ideology. But slogans are one thing and reality is another. All the ideological sweet talk was only talk. For the Ba'ath Party, both in Iraq and in Syria, constituted a political platform to perpetuate tribal, ethnic oppression.

Indeed, the situation in Egypt is completely different. If we put aside the Coptic minority, then Egyptian society is homogenous religiously and not tribal at all. The demoted Egyptian president, Mubarak, never had a tribal-ethnic crutch to lean on. The Egyptian army is also different and not at all like the Syrian or Iraqi armies.

For example, when the United States invaded Iraq, the Iraqi army splintered into its tribal and ethnic fragments. The soldiers took off their uniforms and each joined his tribe and ethnic community. Saddam too adhered to those tribal codes. He did not flee Iraq but went to hide in the well-protected areas of his tribesmen. This is what happens in these societies. In the land of the cedars, as soon as the civil war broke out, the Lebanese army dissolved into its ethnic components and disappeared.

True, Syria is not Egypt. Syria is also different in terms of the price in blood inflicted by the tyrannical Syrian regime. The Syrian tribal government is based on the force exercised by the security branches ruled by the tribesmen and their interested allies.

Inherently, a tribal regime of this kind will always be seen as a foreign reign
. This kind of reign can be called tribal imperialism, which rules by operating brutal terror and oppression. This is underscored when a minority tribe rules, like in Syria. Thus every undermining of the government is seen as a challenge to the tribal hegemony and a danger to the ruling tribe's survival. Such a regime by its very nature is totally immersed in a bloodbath.

Both Assad senior and Assad junior advocated resistance against Israel. This slogan was hollow, serving the regime merely as an insurance policy against any demand for freedom and democracy. The Syrian "resistance" government has not uttered a peep on the Golan front since 1973. Instead, the "resistance" regime was and still is ready to fight Israel to the last Lebanese, and if that doesn't do the trick - then to the last Palestinian.

As voices in Israel have recently spoken out in favor of Hamas' continued rule in Gaza, so many Israelis are worried these days over the Syrian regime's welfare. Astonishingly, not only Jews are praying secretly for the Damascus regime's survival, but many in the Arab parties as well. These parties' leaders have been dumbstruck, their voices have been muted and no outcry has been raised against the Syrian regime's massacre of civilians.

All the hypocrites, Jews and Arabs alike, have united. It seems Assad has wall-to-wall support here, as though he were king of Israel

aithnionn ciarog ciarog eile
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: thejuice on July 20, 2012, 11:36:48 AM
Interesting post on Slugger

http://sluggerotoole.com/2012/07/20/can-iran-be-prevented-from-developing-the-bomb-should-it-be-prevented/

Quote
The current edition of Foreign Affairs magazine contains a leading article by Professor Kenneth N Waltz provocatively entitled Why Iran Should Get The Bomb (it is worth taking a few minutes to read this short but cogent article).

The crux of Waltz’ argument is that power begs to be balanced. Israel’s regional nuclear monopoly especially coupled with American support, he argues, created a regional imbalance of power which is the primary driver of instability in the Middle East. A nuclear balance of terror in the region should, in his view, encourage actors in the region to behave more responsibly, as it has in the Subcontinent since India and Pakistan became formal nuclear powers. Since nuclear weapons came on the scene, no two nuclear powers have ever gone to war against one another.

Iran’s theocratic leaders may be unpleasantly authoritarian and ideologically expansionist, but they are not mad. The consequences of an Iranian nuclear strike – massive retaliation by Israel and possibly the United States – are as clear to the Ayatollahs as they are to anyone else. Nor is passing on nuclear weapons to terrorist groups or other states likely to appeal to decision makers in Tehran, any more than it did to Mao’s unpleasantly authoritarian and ideologically expansionist régime in the 1960s.

To me, however, the more pertinent question is not whether Iran should be stopped from developing The Bomb, but whether it can be. North Korea has managed to become a nuclear power despite its crushing poverty, isolation, primitive economy and clear technical failings in its nuclear weapons programme. Iran, which maintains friendly relations with Russia and China is, at present, awash with oil money and has an education system capable of training as many nuclear scientists as it needs.

Western conservatives seem to work from the standpoint that Iran’s nuclear programme can be derailed at relatively little cost to Israel and still less cost to the West. Memories of Israel’s successful surgical strike on Iraq’s nuclear facilities in 1981, and more recent obliteration of what was almost certainly an undeclared Syrian reactor construction programme, fuel the idea that Iran can be forced to abandon its dream of becoming a nuclear power through air-strikes alone. However, Iran’s nuclear programme has been developed with the risk of an Israeli or American strike, whether by planes or missiles, uppermost in the minds of its planners. Facilities are, as far as is possible, in hardened underground sites. Any air strike which failed would likely only encourage Tehran to increase the tempo towards weaponisation, while leaving the US to deal with diplomatic and probably military fallout, a subject I will return to below.

Israel has instead pursued a high-risk strategy of assassinating key Iranian nuclear scientists, four of whom have now been killed in attacks while travelling to work, using locally recruited agents. The Stuxnet computer virus, aimed at the enrichment plant at Natanz, represented a joint American-Israeli attempt to disrupt the Iranian nuclear programme by non-conventional means. However, its success in introducing significant delays to the programme simply underlines how difficult it would be to destroy it entirely.

Iran’s nuclear programme has significant support outside the Islamic world. Moscow and Tehran have established a joint venture to complete and operate Iran’s long delayed civil nuclear power plant at Bushehr. Russia seems to see little threat in, at the least, an Iranian civil nuclear programme. Russia has nuclear weapons, a lot of them, and is a Security Council veto power. Its consequent diplomatic clout has been on display for all to see in Syria. It tends to see its interests in the region in narrow economic terms – for example, support for Syria has not prevented some enormous sales of military technology between Israel and Russia, in both directions, in recent years. As a major energy exporter, Russia’s economic interests in the Middle East are often far from being in consonance with Western ones.

Even without Russian support, Iran can take a number of steps to retaliate against any American-Israeli attack on its territory. It has already rattled sabres about closing the Straits of Hormuz, and while so far that has looked like an empty threat, it remains a go-to option in dire circumstances.

That could risk antagonising the Chinese, vastly more dependent on Middle East oil than the Americans and whose economy currently looks vulnerable. There are steps it can take which are more directly targeted at specifically American interests, however. Iran has long sponsored or encouraged terrorist attacks by proxies against its enemies, and as we saw in Bulgaria this week, it continues to do so. However, attacks on that small scale are likely to be seen in both Washington and Jerusalem as an acceptable price if they are the consequence of preventing a nuclear Iran. On its own doorstep, however, Iran has the capacity to undermine American interests in the region on a much bigger scale.

Iran’s influence in Iraq is already enormous and, while it has avoided antagonising America too directly since the occupation, if it wanted to it could. Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is close to Tehran and some of the parties in his governing coalition are intimately connected to Iran’s most powerful politico-religious figures. Afghanistan, nestling on Iran’s eastern border, plays host to around 90,000 US troops and relations between Tehran and the Taliban have warmed considerably in recent years. And on the other side of the Gulf, Saudi Arabia’s predominantly Shi’a Eastern Province, home to the biggest chunk of its oil production, is perpetually unhappy with Riyadh, often for good reason. Bahrain also remains a powder keg, and of course nobody has the slightest clue how the situation in Syria will eventually pan out.

Stirring tensions in any of those countries represents a major escalation by Tehran, one that could provoke military conflict with Turkey or Saudi Arabia, a nightmare scenario for the entire region. However, hawks in Tehran may decide that as long as their nuclear programme is not derailed entirely, they can afford to wait. Once they have The Bomb, they will almost certainly be secure from any future attack, as North Korea has been.

That raises the prospects of a nuclear standoff between an American backed Israel and a Russian backed Iran. Is that necessarily a bad thing? It gives the world’s two largest nuclear powers all the incentive they need to push for a final settlement of the Israel-Palestine conflict, probably empowering America to seek more concessions from Israel in return for the maintenance of its nuclear umbrella and encouraging Russia to pour oil on troubled waters that might involve it in a situation well out of Moscow’s comfort zone.

The Middle East is about as far from the United States as it is possible to be, and projecting American power in the region is expensive and depends on what are, even in today’s globalised environment, fragile supply lines. Is it time for America to accept that its interests are now strategic rather than global? Asia’s rise makes a mockery of American universal hegemony, as does America’s own failure to project power into Iraq and Afghanistan.

Middle East oil mostly flows eastwards, fracking is driving US domestic gas production through the roof, and the oil sands in Alberta and Utah together with Brazil’s massive new offshore oilfield probably means America can meet its energy needs entirely from the Western Hemisphere for decades to come. For the more brutal realists that inhabit every US administration, it is probably easier to engineer coups in Venezuela than it is to keep the Middle East from exploding. How does America’s deep entanglement in the Middle East benefit it in concrete terms? Is it time to consider whether a policy of broad US disengagement from the Middle East best suits its interests?

In the short term, it would unleash howls of protest at home and it would take a brave politician indeed to raise the subject in an election year. In the medium term, it might prove popular with an American electorate weary of seemingly endless foreign wars.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on October 10, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Not changing quick enough (To be flippant, education is bad for your health).

All hail Malala.

Surgeons in Pakistan say they have removed a bullet from a 14-year-old girl who was shot in the head by Taliban gunmen in the Swat Valley.

Malala Yousafzai, a campaigner for girls' rights, is reported to be in a stable condition after the operation.

To read more http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19893309
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: southdown on October 10, 2012, 12:47:50 PM
Some very interesting points raised by Proff Waltz.  He raises some valid easons why the US should limit their involvement in the middle east.  The politics of this region are so complex, makes you wander if the region can ever become relatively stable.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on October 10, 2012, 04:19:04 PM
Some very interesting points raised by Proff Waltz.  He raises some valid easons why the US should limit their involvement in the middle east.  The politics of this region are so complex, makes you wander if the region can ever become relatively stable.
not as long as it has cheap oil
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: southdown on October 17, 2012, 03:27:32 PM
Anyone hazard a guess as to if/when Isreal while strike Iran?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on October 17, 2012, 04:11:44 PM
Anyone hazard a guess as to if/when Isreal while strike Iran?
If they are going to do it it will be next year but they would need the Yanks to back them up. I don't know if that will happen. The risks are massive.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: southdown on October 27, 2012, 08:54:48 AM
I get the feeling they will strike Iran with or without the US, especially now there is a new right wing coalition in government. It wuld be a risky move but I think they are hell bent on stopping Iran.  Sudan have now threatened to report Israel to the UN over air strikes at munition factories.  Israel claim these factories are supplying weapons for Hamas and other groups. 

There would be chaos in the US election camps if Israel struck Iran before the election.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on February 28, 2013, 10:27:24 PM
Bradley Manning is now on trial



http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/feb/28/bradley-manning-trial-plea-statement

Manning said: "We were obsessed with capturing and killing human targets on lists and ignoring goals and missions. I believed if the public, particularly the American public, could see this it could spark a debate on the military and our foreign policy in general [that] might cause society to reconsider the need to engage in counter-terrorism while ignoring the human situation of the people we engaged with every day."
In a highly unusual move for a defendant in such a serious criminal prosecution, Manning pleaded guilty to 10 lesser charges out of his own volition – not as part of a plea bargain with the prosecution. He admitted to having possessed and willfully communicated to an unauthorised person – probably Julian Assange – all the main elements of the WikiLeaks disclosure.



That covered the so-called "Collateral Murder" video of an Apache helicopter attack in Iraq;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbqmr5rtdOs

AIPAC, the Israeli lobby in DC, wants the US to attack Iran. WTF

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2013/02/28/1650441/graham-menendez-backdoor-war-iran
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on July 03, 2013, 09:36:50 PM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Syferus on July 03, 2013, 09:57:44 PM
Kinda flies in the face of right wing worries about the Muslim Brotherhood becoming the new big bad. Turns out they're just another undesirable bunch of loons and politicians.

Egyptians deserve some good leadership at this point.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: lawnseed on July 03, 2013, 11:28:22 PM
Kinda flies in the face of right wing worries about the Muslim Brotherhood becoming the new big bad. Turns out they're just another undesirable bunch of loons and politicians.

Egyptians deserve some good leadership at this point.

ireland deserves some decent leadership also.. maybe the gimp kenny would walk like an egyptian.. :P
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Syferus on July 03, 2013, 11:39:35 PM
Kinda flies in the face of right wing worries about the Muslim Brotherhood becoming the new big bad. Turns out they're just another undesirable bunch of loons and politicians.

Egyptians deserve some good leadership at this point.

ireland deserves some decent leadership also.. maybe the gimp kenny would walk like an egyptian.. :P

Enda's our best leader since Queen Meabh.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on July 04, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2013, 09:32:35 AM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
I think the Yanks kept funding the army.

Egypt is a total mess. Very hard to triangulate between American geopolitical needs, the requirement for the economy to keep paying for stuff and the wishes of the people .

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2013, 02:35:29 PM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
I think the Yanks kept funding the army.

Egypt is a total mess. Very hard to triangulate between American geopolitical needs, the requirement for the economy to keep paying for stuff and the wishes of the people .

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?

Talking out your hole as usual. What is going on in Egypt has sweet eff all to do with "American geopolitical needs".
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on July 04, 2013, 03:12:15 PM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
I think the Yanks kept funding the army.

Egypt is a total mess. Very hard to triangulate between American geopolitical needs, the requirement for the economy to keep paying for stuff and the wishes of the people .

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?

Talking out your hole as usual. What is going on in Egypt has sweet eff all to do with "American geopolitical needs".


That big long border with Israel would suggest different.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2013, 03:30:11 PM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
I think the Yanks kept funding the army.

Egypt is a total mess. Very hard to triangulate between American geopolitical needs, the requirement for the economy to keep paying for stuff and the wishes of the people .

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?

Talking out your hole as usual. What is going on in Egypt has sweet eff all to do with "American geopolitical needs".
Of course. The Yanks prop up the Egyptian army with $2bn a year because they love Umm Kulthoum

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2013, 03:49:39 PM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/earth-insight/2013/jul/04/egypt-muslim-brotherhood-morsi-unrest-protests

With 40% of Egyptians already below the UN poverty line of less than £2 a day, Morsi's IMF-inspired policies amounted to a form of economic warfare on the Egyptian people. To make matters worse, as Egypt's economic crisis made it harder to arrange payments, wheat imports dropped sharply - between 1 January and 20 February, the country bought around 259,043 tonnes, roughly a third of what it purchased in the same period a year ago. Coupled with ongoing unemployment and poverty, Morsi's Egypt was a time-bomb waiting to explode.
Post-Morsi, Egypt still faces the same challenges, which have worsened under the Brotherhood's mismanagement. In the long term, the country also faces a growing demographic crisis. Currently at 84 million, the population is projected to increase to an estimated 100 million after about a decade.
In this sense, Egypt is in some ways a microcosm of our global challenges. With the age of cheap oil well and truly behind us, an age of climate extremes and population growth ahead, we should expect increasing food prices for the foreseeable future. This in turn will have consequences. For the last few years, the food price index has fluctuated above the critical threshold for probability of civil unrest.
Unless Egypt's leaders and activists begin taking stock of the convergence of crises unraveling the social fabric, their country faces a permanent future of intensifying turmoil.
And that lesson, in a world facing rising food, water and energy challenges, is one no government can afford to ignore.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on July 04, 2013, 08:50:11 PM
This man was elected democratically was he not?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Count 10 on July 04, 2013, 09:15:13 PM
This man was elected democratically was he not?

He was, as were Hamas.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 04, 2013, 09:51:02 PM
The Israelis would like a return to the old days when the Yanks chose the leaders


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/former-israeli-envoy-in-cairo-egypt-s-problems-are-chronic-disease-1.533824


Former Israeli envoy in Cairo: Egypt's problems are chronic disease
Eli Shaked accuses United States of harboring illusions about democracy in the Middle East, says Muslim Brotherhood will likely be banned from next election.
By DPA | Jul.04, 2013 | 6:03 PM |   1
      
 

Eli Shaked, the Israeli ambassador in Cairo from 2004-2005, says he "does not envy" Egypt's future leadership, which will have to cope with the huge problems that the Muslim Brotherhood was unable to solve in a year in power.He told DPA in an interview Thursday: "We very much hope that they will be able to restore law and order and stability in the country." "I don't envy the Egyptian leaders, today and in the future, because the problems in Egypt are like a chronic disease. They are so big, so malignant, that it is very, very difficult for me to see what kind of miracles the next leader or the next leadership of Egypt can bring about."
What do you regard as the most harrowing of those problems?
"Egypt is 1 million square kilometers, but on only 4 percent, you have 90 million living there and you have 1.5 million new babies every year and this is a disaster. "This young society is unemployed. There is no way to supply proper schools, nurseries, kindergartens, hospitals, jobs after university. By law the government has to employ all university graduates. This is from the socialist times in the 1950s of [former president Gamal] Abdel Nasser. But at the time Egypt was 20 million and not more.

What can be expected of the democratic process in Egypt?

"I don't see the Egyptian military giving a second opportunity to the Muslim Brotherhood to be elected in democratic or non-democratic elections that will be take place sometime in the future. "I'm sure they will not let the Muslim Brotherhood establish a party, normal party to participate in the next elections.
"Historically, since the very beginning of the Muslim Brotherhood in the 1920s, more than 80 years ago ... the military in Egypt fought the Muslim Brotherhood very, very harshly.Islamists who raised their heads too much were thrown immediately in jail. [Former Egyptian president Mohammed] Morsi is one of the examples. There will be no democracy in the Middle East for many, many years.

"Democratic Washington has many illusions. Washington is a friend of ours, of you and us, but they are not realistic. They betrayed [former Egyptian president Hosni] Mubarak. They betrayed Morsi. They betrayed the Shah of Iran in 1979.

"They, the Americans, by demanding democratic elections in the West Bank and Gaza in 2006, by putting this demand, pressure on the Palestinian Authority and Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas], they brought Hamas to power through democratic means.

"In Iran in 1979, the Shah was expelled, betrayed by the United States and through democratic elections, the Americans, the Israelis, all of us got ... [Ayatollah] Khomeini as the leader of Iran. We lost Iran. "Gaza was lost to Hamas. Mubarak was kicked out and stabbed in the back because [President Barack] Obama and his administration demanded that he take seriously the pressure of the people. Democratization is a process. You don't jump. You have to build it bottom up."

What are the consequences of the developments in Egypt for Israel?

"We have concerns about the situation in the Sinai Peninsula in particular, but not only. In the Sinai ... it is an issue of security, because the area has become a launching pad for terrorists for attacks against Israel.
"The Egyptian military and police in Sinai have suffered also from those activities by the international jihadists, extremists ... Since they made Sinai their home, a process that started in the days of Mubarak, but gained momentum in the past two-and-half years since Mubarak, they are a source of concern for Israel as well as for Egypt.
"Now, Israel would like Egypt to restore law and order and stability in the country in general and in Sinai in particular. The common interest exists between the Israeli military and the Egyptian military.
"And it is interesting to know that throughout these two-and-a-half turbulent years since Mubarak, the only good, tangible contacts were maintained by the two armies."
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 04, 2013, 11:34:13 PM
The landscape certainly changed tonight as President Morsi in Egypt has been overthrown in what can only be described as a "Coup D'Etat"

Morsi and the Muslim Brotherhood won a democratic election, and despite promising so much, they delivered very little in the eyes of most Egyptians.

The following days are going to be very interesting.....
I think the Yanks kept funding the army.

Egypt is a total mess. Very hard to triangulate between American geopolitical needs, the requirement for the economy to keep paying for stuff and the wishes of the people .

I wonder did Mohammed Morsi and his Muslim Brotherhood party enjoy the same amount of 'International Aid' as Mubarak did?

Talking out your hole as usual. What is going on in Egypt has sweet eff all to do with "American geopolitical needs".
Of course. The Yanks prop up the Egyptian army with $2bn a year because they love Umm Kulthoum

Yeah, of course, all those people in Tahrir square that protested against Morsi were doing Americas bidding.

What happens in Egpyt is down to Egyptians. The Army is a million strong and every soldier has a family and extended family so there are millions that are fine with whats going on. Its their own self interest that is the primary driver here. On the other side you have millions that voted for an Islamic theocracy and now they are complaining because the country is still a basket case. You get the politicians you deserve.

And all the time in the background the anti-semites, xenophobes and sectarian bigots are whispering in their ears that its all somebody elses fault....its the jews, its the Americans, its the Coptic Christians. That's why c***ts like you are so despicable. You are perfectly happy to see the middle east remain a basket case as it gives you a perfect theatre to project/promote your vicious prejudices.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 05, 2013, 12:23:20 AM
Here is a perfect example of what I was saying....

Quote
"Anti-American sentiments have been on the rise in Egypt in recent months. Morsi's opponents have accused the United States of being party to a conspiracy to keep Morsi in power. The official in Morsi's office, speaking Monday, had the opposite interpretation, saying that some in the president's camp believed any possible coup "would not happen without American tacit acquiescence or outright support."

source:  http://www.ticotimes.net/More-news/News-Briefs/Egypt-s-military-gives-Morsi-opposition-parties-48-hours-to-resolve-conflict_Tuesday-July-02-2013 (http://www.ticotimes.net/More-news/News-Briefs/Egypt-s-military-gives-Morsi-opposition-parties-48-hours-to-resolve-conflict_Tuesday-July-02-2013)

so both sides blame the Americans. Its all bullshit. Just like in Syria and Libya both sides use the US/Israelis to serve their own propaganda purposes.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 05, 2013, 07:53:03 AM
Thanks for the laughs mikesheehy. You should stick to the caid. At least you understand it.
And you don't lose the head when you talk about it because you can always respond coherently.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 05, 2013, 01:15:56 PM
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath
a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting whatever shite you find and any time you are challenged to give your own analysis you give your trite little one-liners about zionists and American cabals then you  run and hide.
You are like an anti-semitic bot spreading his modern day "protocol-of-the-elders-of-zion" meme all over the internet.



 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 05, 2013, 01:59:49 PM
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath
a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting whatever shite you find and any time you are challenged to give your own analysis you give your trite little one-liners about zionists and American cabals then you  run and hide.
You are like an anti-semitic bot spreading his modern day "protocol-of-the-elders-of-zion" meme all over the internet.
Have you ever been to the Middle East?
And why are you so angry?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 05, 2013, 09:48:21 PM
The thing about you Seafoid is that you really know the square root of eff all about the middle east. You fake it. You hide your ignorance beneath
a thin veneer of cut'n'pasting whatever shite you find and any time you are challenged to give your own analysis you give your trite little one-liners about zionists and American cabals then you  run and hide.
You are like an anti-semitic bot spreading his modern day "protocol-of-the-elders-of-zion" meme all over the internet.
Have you ever been to the Middle East?
And why are you so angry?
Yes I have.
Why do you hate jews so much ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2013, 03:30:09 AM
No answer ?

What happened ?  Did your trawl of the internet to find some article explaining your prejudice come up short ?

I can understand that after 10+ years of cut'n'pasting your hatred of jews/Israelis/Americans on here that actually explaining your core beliefs, in your own words, might be a stretch but surely you can give it a shot.





Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 06, 2013, 11:06:20 AM
No answer ?

What happened ?  Did your trawl of the internet to find some article explaining your prejudice come up short ?

I can understand that after 10+ years of cut'n'pasting your hatred of jews/Israelis/Americans on here that actually explaining your core beliefs, in your own words, might be a stretch but surely you can give it a shot.

Leviticus 19:33. Read it.

What Zionism has done to Judaism is a tragedy

And calling anti Zionists antisemites won't stop the rot.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2013, 06:31:58 PM
If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow you would still hate jews. I have seen enough of your spewing on here and over on mondoweiss to know you for what you are.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on July 06, 2013, 07:06:07 PM
If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow you would still hate jews. I have seen enough of your spewing on here and over on mondoweiss to know you for what you are.
I was reading an article about internet trolls but I'm not sure which one you are.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/internet-trolls-guide-to-different-flavours

Moreover, trolls don't simply spew vile tirades of abuse. In fact, the data repeatedly shows that such obvious trolls are easier to deal with. When someone pours forth unprovoked hatred, there is really only one interpretation: they're aiming to manipulate your feelings (eg to hurt you) or even your behaviour (eg to delete your Twitter account). However, such attempts are so painfully obvious that they are easy to identify, block, and if serious enough, to prosecute.

But you aren't serious. You're just inadequate.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Mike Sheehy on July 06, 2013, 10:30:46 PM
If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow you would still hate jews. I have seen enough of your spewing on here and over on mondoweiss to know you for what you are.
I was reading an article about internet trolls but I'm not sure which one you are.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jul/01/internet-trolls-guide-to-different-flavours

Moreover, trolls don't simply spew vile tirades of abuse. In fact, the data repeatedly shows that such obvious trolls are easier to deal with. When someone pours forth unprovoked hatred, there is really only one interpretation: they're aiming to manipulate your feelings (eg to hurt you) or even your behaviour (eg to delete your Twitter account). However, such attempts are so painfully obvious that they are easy to identify, block, and if serious enough, to prosecute.

But you aren't serious. You're just inadequate.

You keep editing your posts...what happened ? did you accidently express an opinion without a supporting article ?

I'll bet your mind just goes blank when you lose your internet connection  ::)
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Ash Smoker on August 14, 2013, 04:52:41 PM
Anyone here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 14, 2013, 05:15:12 PM
Anyone here?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-news-from-elsewhere-23695896
The problem with all those people paid to spin for Israel is that they all come with the same points
over and over again.

http://www.hasbara.com/v2pages/resources.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: dec on August 14, 2013, 05:23:58 PM
If Israel ceased to exist tomorrow you would still hate jews. I have seen enough of your spewing on here and over on mondoweiss to know you for what you are.

http://mondoweiss.net/profile/seafoid

Total number of comments: 9507
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 14, 2013, 07:18:51 PM
Here's an energetic justification of apartheid


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.541024#
For Israel, size does matter

A small truncated Israel will invite aggression – by terrorists, armed forces, and those in possession of nuclear weapons.

 By Moshe Arens    |  Aug. 13, 2013 | 5:00 AM  |  23
Where are the negotiations carried out under the auspices of John Kerry going to take us? Their declared purpose is to bring about a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians – Fatah, Hamas, and an assorted group of Jihadists. Any realistic observer of the Middle East well knows that this is mission impossible at this time.

However one thing is for sure: If the negotiators reach an agreement it is going to make the area under Israeli control smaller, much smaller. It will return Israel to the lines that existed before Israel was attacked in the Six-Day War on June 4, 1967. In 1969 Israel’s foreign minister Abba Eban referring to these lines said: “The June map is for us the equivalent of insecurity and danger. I do not exaggerate when I say that it has for us something of a memory of Auschwitz.” Tzipi Livni, sent to negotiate our future by Benjamin Netanyahu, obviously does not share Eban’s strategic vision.
She may have bought the nonsense that territory is unimportant in the age of missiles. Just the opposite is true. Territory is more important than before. For the small short-range missiles, which are hard to detect and destroy, bringing them closer to our population centers spells disaster. And for the large long-range missiles with large warheads, reducing the size of the target area is a mistake.
Small is precarious. Small is dangerous. Small creates the impression of weakness. Small can be bombed, invaded, and destroyed. Donald Rumsfeld, the former U.S. secretary of defense once said: “If we know anything it is that weakness is a provocation.” A small truncated Israel will project weakness and provoke aggression – by terrorists, by armed forces, and by those in possession of nuclear weapons. No security arrangements or demilitarization are going to be of any use in the long run.

A good example of the strategic implications of a reduction in size is the transfer of the Sinai to Egypt as part of the Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty in 1979, which reduced the area under Israeli control by two thirds. Although in this case there was reason to believe that this concession would bring a long-lasting peace with Egypt, a belief somewhat shaken by recent events in Cairo, the full strategic implications of this drastic reduction in area under Israeli control only became apparent with the appearance of the danger of possession of nuclear weapons in the hands of Israel’s enemies in recent years. Without the Sinai, Israel has been turned into a point-target in case of a nuclear attack - a provocation.
Now Tzipi Livni, under Netanyahu’s direction, would like to finish the job – chop another 6,000 square kilometers from areas under Israeli control. She would turn Judea and Samaria over to parties uncertain and unpredictable, bring the rockets closer to Tel Aviv. It is a sure-fire recipe for aggression against Israel in the years to come.
How to explain this mad rush toward disaster? It is the obsession that has seized Livni, but not only her, that a binational state must be avoided at all cost. That not one more Arab should be added to the list of Arab citizens in Israel. That she has been charged with the mission of protecting the “Jewish Democratic State.” That unless 6,000 square kilometers be chopped off and tens of thousands of Israelis be uprooted from their homes, “Israel will cease being a Jewish State or else cease being a democracy.”
Claptrap. Better dead than a binational state, she must be thinking.

Israel is a binational state today with both Jewish and Arab citizens. Our challenge is integrating Israel’s Arab citizens into Israeli society. Including additional areas of the Land of Israel in the State of Israel’s borders does not present insurmountable challenges to Israel’s democracy. Reducing the size of Israel will endanger Israel’s future.

Here is an opposing view

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.536431

"Israel's crash into the diplomatic iceberg
A combination of arrogance, complacency and moral stupor caused Israelis to continue to dance on the deck even as their ship was cruising straight into an iceberg. The skipper didn’t swerve in time. Nor did the passengers demand that he swerve in time.
By Ari Shavit | Jul. 18, 2013 | 5:16 AM |  6
      
I confess: Two and a half years ago, I was one of the first to warn about a diplomatic tsunami hitting our shores if we didn’t come up with a bold plan that would lead to a division of the land.
But the tsunami did not occur. In the fall of 2011, the Netanyahu government was able to convince the Obama administration to pressure the international community not to cooperate with the Palestinian Authority’s attempts to gain UN recognition as a state, a move aimed a generating condemnation of Israel. Consequently, the tsunami didn’t hit, generating a warm and fuzzy feeling in Israel, as if everything were fine − including controlling and oppressing another people and settling every hill of our ancestral homeland.
We could forget about a diplomatic agenda, ignore Israel’s existential challenge and allow the settlers to continue to rule over us. The diplomatic crisis that never happened has since served as eternal proof that we can continue to provoke the world and do with the Palestinians as we see fit. We’re the best. There are no guns like our guns. We’ll occupy and settle the entire land.
Today it’s clear that the 20 months since the tsunami that wasn’t are remarkably similar to the five months between the war that didn’t break out in May 1973 and the war that took us by surprise in October of that year. In both instances, there was more than enough information available, and it was clear that the situation was not sustainable. But in both instances, an early false alarm led to the subsequent real alarm not being heard.
A combination of arrogance, complacency and moral stupor caused Israelis to continue to dance on the deck even as their ship was cruising straight into an iceberg. The skipper didn’t swerve in time. Nor did the passengers demand that he swerve in time. Both the captain and the passengers believed that there was no iceberg that could sink their ship or interfere with the delightful feast of fools taking place on board.
Even now, the storm has yet to reach tsunami strength. The European Union’s decision to distinguish between sovereign Israel and Israel the occupier won’t destroy the Israeli economy in a day. The clumsy effort by Brussels to save Israel from itself won’t turn Jerusalem into a pariah capital this year.
But the process has begun. We’ve been delivered a registered letter saying there’s a contradiction between our being an OECD country and our being a country of settlements. The contrast between our belonging to the 21st-century West and our stubborn adherence to 19th-century colonial values has been put on the table. Europe has informed us that the illusion of Habayit Hayehudi chairman Naftali Bennett is indeed an illusion: Our start-up nation and high-tech economy won’t last much longer if we don’t divide the land.
The ongoing Israeli refusal to recognize the occupation for what it is, is liable to cause us eventually to turn ourselves into South Africa. The Zionist insistence on destroying Zionism in the West Bank will cause us to eventually redefine ourselves as Rhodesia. With our own hands, we are bringing ourselves closer to losing the justice of the Zionist cause, to losing the Zionist path and sinking the Jewish national home.
The mistake was not just mine: For 46 years, there have been farsighted Israelis warning about a disaster that has yet to come. But from warning to warning the state has grown, the economy has flourished and the right has grown stronger. With unparalleled skill, the Israeli ship has managed to navigate around the iceberg without hitting it.
But one morning, we may find that the reason we haven’t crashed into the iceberg is that the iceberg is already within us. The iceberg is already inside the ship. Listen, and you’ll hear the water rushing through the lower decks. Look, the water is getting closer to the upper decks. If the captains and passengers keep frolicking at their feast of fools, the rising waters will do to the ship what no tsunami could have done. "


 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 16, 2013, 08:19:04 PM
This week in Egypt has seen one of the darkest times in the middle east for decades.

This short documentary isn't for the faint hearted.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Mnm9neSLc&sns=tw
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Puckoon on August 16, 2013, 10:44:36 PM
Very sad viewing in that link GHD.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 12:21:47 AM
Puckoon, over last few years I have seen a lot of harrowing footage from the middle east, but to be honest,
watching that video this evening really hit me hard. Beyond the dead and injured, the pain of those living this
on going massacre is heart breaking.

As I type this I am watching Al Jazeera and the live coverage is un believable.  This is only going to get worse
in the coming days and weeks.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 01:15:09 AM
This live footage from Al Fattah Mosque in Ramses St in Cairo.

They are surrounded by the army and thugs, and they are expecting an attack very soon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnyXD3FVyBo
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 01:56:27 AM
This is live footage right now as the mosque is been attacked by the Military.......

Watch this now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FnyXD3FVyBo
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 01:58:13 AM
This is the live footage on Al Jazeera

http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 11:42:18 AM
The siege on the mosque is still ongoing as thousands of military, thugs and a baying public hold
hundreds of people hostage.

On Al Jazeera an Irish Egyptian woman, Fatima, is giving live updates and the emotions she is going through
is unreal. Things do not look good there right now.

Fatima is one of 4 Irish people trapped in the mosque at present

http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 17, 2013, 12:54:41 PM
The mosque is under heavy attack right now.......

TURN ON NOW

http://www.aljazeera.com/watch_now/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 12:53:39 AM
In Tiananmen Square in 1989 one man stood in front of a line of Chinese tanks with his arms raised in protest. To this day his image is seen as the turning point in the history of modern day China.

Yesterday, one man stood with is hands in the air in front of US supplied tanks and trained soldiers and took a stand just like that of Tiananmen Square 24 years ago.

While the Chinese showed restraint, the western backed Egyptian Military just opened fire.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK1fP-n9qtc
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Denn Forever on August 18, 2013, 10:41:13 AM
Getting closer to home.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0817/468686-dublin-imams-family-in-besieged-cairo-mosque/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on August 18, 2013, 12:49:51 PM
Why is none of this horrendous footage making onto the RTE or BBC news? Is it because secretly we don't like the results of the democratic elections that were held in Egypt? That is a blatant breach of every law there is right there. Disgraceful stuff.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 03:30:41 PM
The four Irish citizens who were caught up in the Cairo mosque stand-off yesterday are all being held at a prison in the city, it has emerged.

Speaking to TheJournal.ie, their father Hussein Halawa, who is the Imam at the Clonskeagh mosque in Dublin, said that information coming from Egypt suggests that his three daughters and his son were all taken by security forces when they raided the mosque yesterday.

Immediately after security forces stormed the mosque, 21-year-old Omaima Halawa called her family in Dublin to tell them she and one of her sisters, Fatima, aged 23, were both being arrested. However she said she did not know the whereabouts of her other sister Somaia, 27 or her brother Ibrihim, aged 17.

“When they went out of the mosque yesterday, some people took everything from them so I think someone gave her a phone to use for a minute,” he said. “She said ‘Dad, I am with the army and policemen and I don’t know anything about my brother and sister’”.

Halawa said that he has not had any contact with any of his four missing children since then. However a call from a woman in Cairo today who had also been in the mosque with them suggested that all four were arrested and are being held at Tora Prison.

“I have been trying to phone them all day today but nothing,” Halawa said. “It’s very bad, their mother is crying all the time. They just went over to go on a summer holiday, they live here with me, but they went there for a holiday to stay with their aunt.”

Speaking to RTÉ, Minister of State Joe Costello confirmed that the four Irish citizens are being detained at Tora Prison and said that the Irish ambassador is now trying to ensure that they are in good health.

http://www.thejournal.ie/four-irish-citizens-being-held-at-cairo-prison-1042571-Aug2013/?utm_source=facebook_short
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 03:42:29 PM
Excellent article that is well worth reading for some background to the events of the past few weeks in Egypt

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/18/world/middleeast/pressure-by-us-failed-to-sway-egypts-leaders.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: omagh_gael on August 18, 2013, 03:49:29 PM
In Tiananmen Square in 1989 one man stood in front of a line of Chinese tanks with his arms raised in protest. To this day his image is seen as the turning point in the history of modern day China.

Yesterday, one man stood with is hands in the air in front of US supplied tanks and trained soldiers and took a stand just like that of Tiananmen Square 24 years ago.

While the Chinese showed restraint, the western backed Egyptian Military just opened fire.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK1fP-n9qtc

That is crazy. Sickening how situations like this (and Syria) are treated completely different to places like Libya and Iraq.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 04:44:00 PM
Democracy is fine, as long as the winner is a friend of the west.

A few years back, free and fair elections were held in Palestine. In a major shock, Hamas topped the poll
and were elected. The US and Israel backed a coup by Fatah, which backfired badly. Then we saw the
siege imposed on Gaza and constant attacks by the US/Israel. All this to try and overthrow Hamas, which did
nothing but strengthen them.

we have now witnessed the same actions in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood won a free and fair election, but
certain leaders in the region and in the west didn't like the result, and hey, they had to go. In a bloody coup
that has left over 1,000 dead in a week, and thousands more injured, the Muslim Brotherhood have been seriously
damaged. Thousands of their supporters and their leadership are in jail, and who knows what will happen to them.

Whenever Gadaffi threatened those who were setting out to topple him, the west circled their wagons and saw their
chance to get rid of him. They called it a "Humanitarian Intervention", and in reality it was a bloody invasion the killed thousands and has left the country in ruins. But hey, they got rid of Gadaffi, installed their own leader and secured the oil.

What we have witnessed this week is just another bloody stain on the hands of western leaders who to date, have shown
absolutely no compassion or humanity towards the Egyptians who are suffering in a cruel and brutal way. Shame on them,
and shame on those who cheer this on.

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 18, 2013, 05:06:11 PM
Democracy is fine, as long as the winner is a friend of the west.

A few years back, free and fair elections were held in Palestine. In a major shock, Hamas topped the poll
and were elected. The US and Israel backed a coup by Fatah, which backfired badly. Then we saw the
siege imposed on Gaza and constant attacks by the US/Israel. All this to try and overthrow Hamas, which did
nothing but strengthen them.

we have now witnessed the same actions in Egypt. The Muslim Brotherhood won a free and fair election, but
certain leaders in the region and in the west didn't like the result, and hey, they had to go. In a bloody coup
that has left over 1,000 dead in a week, and thousands more injured, the Muslim Brotherhood have been seriously
damaged. Thousands of their supporters and their leadership are in jail, and who knows what will happen to them.

Whenever Gadaffi threatened those who were setting out to topple him, the west circled their wagons and saw their
chance to get rid of him. They called it a "Humanitarian Intervention", and in reality it was a bloody invasion the killed thousands and has left the country in ruins. But hey, they got rid of Gadaffi, installed their own leader and secured the oil.

What we have witnessed this week is just another bloody stain on the hands of western leaders who to date, have shown
absolutely no compassion or humanity towards the Egyptians who are suffering in a cruel and brutal way. Shame on them,
and shame on those who cheer this on.
"Democracy is fine, as long as the winner is a friend of the west."

True but in this case the soldiers are all Egyptian. The Cairo elite is driving this in cahoots with the Gulf countries and the West.
The Israelis have been in constant contact with the generals, of course. 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 08:21:30 PM
Around 38 Muslim Brotherhood prisoners die trying to escape

A number of Muslim Brotherhood supporters died in prison on Sunday while trying to escape, the Interior Ministry said as cited by Reuters. A conflicting report on Twitter claimed the prisoners suffocated from tear gas while being transferred in a truck.

While there was no official death toll immediately available following the incident that took place in Abu Zaabal prison near Cairo, security sources quoted by Reuters put the number of deaths at 38.

The ministry’s statement did not provide a detailed picture of the incident, but indicated that the killed detainees were trying to escape.

According to the version given by the state media EGYNews.net and quoted by RT’s Bel Trew, a police truck transporting detainees was attacked by a group of armed men. During the incident, which was said to be taking place in a car park, a police officer was taken hostage. Officers responded by firing tear gas, and the people inside the prison truck subsequently suffocated to death.

Wildly varying accounts of the events immediately emerged in the media and on Twitter.

AFP cited official sources saying the men were teargassed after starting a prison mutiny, and that they were all Islamists.

Al Jazeera quoted a source who said that all 38 prisoners were shot after taking a police officer hostage. The media outlet also said the men were being transported to the Cairo prison, adding that they were all detained in the Al-Fath mosque siege.


http://rt.com/news/egypt-prisoners-die-brotherhood-642/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 08:24:21 PM
Egypt army chief vows to use full force

The Egyptian army chief Abdel Fattah el-Sisi has said he will no longer restrain his forces from confronting "attackers who want to destroy Egypt", in his first public comments since a security crackdown on anti-coup protesters that left an estimated 600 people dead.

"Our self-restraint will not continue. We will not accept any more attacks. We will meet with full force. Attackers want to destroy Egypt," he said in a speech televised on Egyptian television on Sunday.

He vowed to stand firm in the face of violence. "Whoever imagines violence will make the state and Egyptians kneel must reconsider; we will never be silent in the face of the destruction of the country," he said.

Sisi removed president Mohamed Morsi on 3 July in a coup, saying he could not ignore the widespread protests against Morsi's rule.

'We are guardians'

Egypt has since spiralled into violence, with hundreds of Morsi's supporters from the Muslim Brotherhood and other anti-coup groups being killed by government forces during protests. On August 14, an estimated 600 were killed when riot police moved in on two huge sit-in protest camps in Cairo.

In more conciliatory language, Sisi said there was "room for everyone" in Egypt and that his forces would not  "conspire" to take power.

"The will of the Egyptian people is free, their will is free, they can choose whoever they want to rule them, and we are the guardians of this will," he said as members of the audience - mostly military and police officers - applauded his comments.

"The army and the police right now are the guardians of the will of the people with regard to choosing who their leaders will be.

"I said previously that Egyptians if they want to change the world, they are capable of that, and I tell the Egyptian people now that if you want to build Egypt and its future, you will and you can, and you can make it 'Egypt the mother of all nations' Egypt will be as big as the world itself, with God's will."

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/08/201381817321417962.html
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 18, 2013, 08:42:39 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/how-some-ordinary-egyptians-became-malicious-terrorists-8773354.html

Robert Fisk......

Disgust, shame, outrage.

All these words apply to the disgrace of Egypt these past six weeks. A military coup, millions of enraged supporters of the democratically elected but deposed dictator – reports that indicate well over 1,000 Muslim Brotherhood sympathisers slaughtered by the security police – and what were we told by the authorities yesterday? That Egypt was subject to “a malicious terrorist plot”.

The language speaks for itself. Not just a common or garden “terrorist” plot – but a “terrorist” plot so terrible that it is “malicious”. Naturally, the government acquired this use of the “terrorist” word from Bush and Blair, another Western contribution to Arab culture. But it goes further. The country, we are now informed, is at the mercy of “extremist forces who want to create war”. You would think, on hearing this, that most of the dead these past six weeks were soldiers and policemen, whereas in fact most were unarmed demonstrators.

And who is to blame? Obama, of course, for “encouraging terrorism” by his wimpish complaints last week – so claim the Egyptian authorities. And our old friend, the “foreign media”. It is the infidel channels – including al-Jazeera – which has been feeding hatred into the land of the Pharaohs, according to the Egyptian press (which is now almost as wimpish as Obama in its fealty to its new rulers).

Outside the al-Fath mosque in Cairo on Saturday, supporters of the military were roughing up reporters and cameramen, Italians and Germans among them, and even al-Jazeera briefly high-tailed it from the scene. The Independent took its chances, with Alastair Beach inside the besieged mosque with the Brotherhood. Outside, I was wearing a scruffy tourist hat among the security thugs and Army supporters, where an Egyptian friend helped me – rather unkindly, I thought – by explaining to men with clubs that I was an elderly English tourist who had just popped out from his Cairo hotel to see what was going on. I kept my notebook and my mobile phone in my pocket. “Welcome to Cairo,” I was repeatedly told.

To be fair, let me just recount one little, heartening moment amid Saturday’s mosque drama. Two Egyptian men walked up to me and said, quite simply, that “it is very unfair to keep these people in the mosque without water and food. They are human beings just like us.” The men were not Morsi supporters, but didn’t seem too keen on the police. They were just good, decent, humane Egyptians, the kind we all hope are in the real majority.

But this leads me to remember a typically Obama-like piece of lying last week. It came when the US president decided to take a break from his golfing holiday to comment on the violence in Egypt. He described Morsi’s opponents – now represented by a general, Abdul-Fattah al-Sisi, who is also the defence minister and the deputy prime minister – as “many Egyptians, millions of Egyptians, perhaps even a majority of Egyptians”. And there you had it – Obama had credited the coup with a majority following.

How General al-Sisi – who speaks excellent American English – must have been delighted with this little set of code words.

And it’s odd, isn’t it, how the supposedly malicious journalists have been playing down the murderous actions of the Egyptian security cops. They were repeatedly referred to on Al-Jazeera last week as “armed men” – as if they were not in uniform and shooting from the roof of a police station. Western editorials have described Egyptian police killings as “heavy-handed’, as if Inspector Lewis and Sergeant Hathaway had biffed a few bad guys over the head.

A trustworthy friend of mine put it to me the other day that our Western leaders are so sick of the demonstrators that plague G8 summits – where the usual “terror” warnings always apply – that they have an innate sympathy with policemen and a built-in hatred of protesters.

But it’s our dear friends the Saudis whom the Egyptian army and police can count on for help. King Abdullah himself has promised billions of dollars for poor old Egypt, now that Qatari generosity has dried up. But Egyptians should beware Saudis bearing gifts. The House of Saud is not really interested in helping foreign armies – unless they are coming to save Saudi Arabia – but it is very much involved in supporting the Salafists of the Egyptian Noor party. It is the Noor religious fundamentalists who won an extraordinary 24 per cent in the last parliamentary election – and who ruthlessly decided to ally themselves with General al-Sisi when Morsi was dethroned. The conservative Salafists are much more to Saudi taste than potentially liberal members of the Brotherhood. It is for them that the King is opening his purse. And if by some mischance, the Salafists can drum up a majority from disenchanted members of the Brotherhood in the next election, then the Caliphate of Egypt is a step nearer.

And the Other Side of the Story. It is true that gunmen have fired from Brotherhood crowds. A handful at most – and it does not justify the Egyptian press calling tens of thousands of people “terrorists” – but both my colleague and I have seen armed men among protesters. The attacks on the churches are real. Churches have been burned, Christian homes vandalised.

The anti-Christian fury is now political-ideological. It is persecution. Pope Tawadros might perhaps now regret having his photo taken alongside the coup supporters. But the sheikh of Al Azhar was in the same picture – and so were the Salafists.

Oh yes, and the government is now rumbling on about the need to “dissolve” the Brotherhood. Since members are already being rounded up by the cops, I’m not quite sure what “dissolution” is supposed to achieve. Didn’t the Brits once declare the IRA “illegal”? Did that make them go away?

I was crossing the 6 October bridge over the Nile after curfew on Friday when I found more than 30 young men in galabia gowns sitting on the pavement with their hands over their heads. Striding among them were black-uniformed cops with shotguns, and gangs of “beltagi” – the bully-boys employed by state security (I suppose we might call them the “good’ terrorists”) – and I suddenly saw what “state of emergency” means. Fear. No rights. No arrest warrants. No law.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 19, 2013, 11:53:55 AM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/19/world/middleeast/israel-puts-more-urgency-on-shaping-allies-actions.html

"WEST JERUSALEM — Israel plans this week to intensify its diplomatic campaign urging Europe and the United States to support the military-backed government in Egypt despite its deadly crackdown on Islamist protesters, according to a senior Israeli official involved in the effort.

The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of an edict from the prime minister not to discuss the Egyptian crisis, said Israeli ambassadors in Washington, London, Paris, Berlin, Brussels and other capitals would lobby foreign ministers. At the same time, leaders here will press the case with diplomats from abroad that the military is the only hope to prevent further chaos in Cairo.

With the European Union planning an urgent review of its relations with Egypt in a meeting Monday, the message, in part, is that concerns about democracy and human rights should take a back seat to stability and security because of Egypt’s size and strategic importance.
“We’re trying to talk to key actors, key countries, and share our view that you may not like what you see, but what’s the alternative?” the official explained. “If you insist on big principles, then you will miss the essential — the essential being putting Egypt back on track at whatever cost. First, save what you can, and then deal with democracy and freedom and so on.

“At this point,” the official added, “it’s army or anarchy.”

Israeli leaders have made no public statements and have refused interviews since Wednesday’s brutal clearing of two Muslim Brotherhood protest encampments. But even as the death toll climbed in ensuing gunfights in mosques and on streets, officials spoke frequently to members of Congress, officials at the Pentagon and State Department, and European diplomats.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who convened an emergency meeting of his inner cabinet Friday regarding Egypt, has not spoken since the crackdown to President Obama, who on Thursday rebuked the Egyptian government by canceling joint military exercises set for next month. But Mr. Netanyahu has discussed the situation with Secretary of State John Kerry; Gen. Martin E. Dempsey, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who was in Israel last week; and a visiting delegation of more than two dozen Republicans from Congress, led by the majority leader, Eric Cantor of Virginia.

General Dempsey and Israel’s military chief have also consulted on Egypt, as have Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel and his Israeli counterpart. Michael B. Oren, Israel’s ambassador to the United States, has been forcefully arguing for sustaining Washington’s $1.5 billion annual aid to Egypt since the July 3 ouster of President Mohamed Morsi by Egypt’s military commander, Gen. Abdul-Fattah el-Sisi.

“Israel is in a state of diplomatic emergency,” Alex Fishman, a leading Israeli columnist, wrote in Sunday’s Yediot Aharonot newspaper. “It has been waging an almost desperate diplomatic battle in Washington.”

While Israel is careful to argue that Egypt is critical to broad Western interests in the Middle East, its motivation is largely parochial: the American aid underpins the 34-year-old peace treaty between Israel and Egypt, so its withdrawal could lead to the unraveling of the agreement. More immediately, Israel is deeply worried that Egypt’s strife could create more openings for terrorist attacks on its territory from the Sinai Peninsula.

At the same time, Israeli officials are aware that the aid package is one of the Obama administration’s biggest potential levers against Egypt’s military rulers — and a topic of debate within the White House.

“From the Israeli perspective it is security, security and security — and then other issues,” said Yoram Meital, a professor of Middle Eastern studies at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. “The Obama administration took a stand that has a lot to do with universal values. Of course, killing hundreds of protesters in this brutal way should be condemned. If we study the Israeli perspective, then these universal values are secondary to the top priorities of security and security.”

Most Israeli experts on Egypt share the government’s support for the Sisi government and view Mr. Morsi’s Islamist Muslim Brotherhood movement as a dangerous threat. But several said Israel’s diplomatic push was risky because it could promote a backlash in Egypt and across the Arab world and hurt Israel’s credibility as a democracy.

“This is a very big mistake to interfere in what happens in Egypt,” said Mordechai Kedar, a lecturer at Bar-Ilan University and director of its new Center for the Study of the Middle East and Islam.

Dr. Kedar invoked an old joke about a lifeguard kicking a boy out of a pool for urinating — from the diving board. “You can do things, but do them under the water,” he said. “Israel, by supporting explicitly the army, exposes itself to retaliation. Israel should have done things behind the scenes, under the surface, without being associated with any side of the Egyptian problem.”

But Eli Shaked, a former Israeli ambassador to Egypt, praised Mr. Netanyahu’s government for “acting very discreetly,” and Yitzhak Levanon, Israel’s ambassador to Egypt until 2011, said the lobbying had not been aggressive.

“We are talking to a lot of friends,” said Mr. Levanon, who teaches a course on Egypt at the Interdisciplinary Center in Herzliya. “Pushing? I don’t think that this is the word. We are expressing what we believe is best for the region.”

Mr. Shaked said that unlike the Obama administration and the European Union, Israel did “not have any illusions about the possibility of a democracy in Egypt.”

“I understand Washington and Europe with their criticism, but there is no alternative to letting the army in Egypt try by force,” he said. “We have to choose here not between the good guys and the bad guys — we don’t have good guys. It is a situation where you have to choose who is less harmful.”

The Israeli official who described the diplomatic campaign acknowledged that Washington’s suspension of the military exercises and Europe’s announcement Sunday that it would review its relations with Cairo did not signal success so far.

“It’s very important for us to make certain countries understand the situation as we see it,” the official said. “We do that with a sense of urgency. This is something we’re going to try and share with as many influential countries as we can this week.”"

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 19, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
This is just unbelievable.....


(Reuters) - Hosni Mubarak, the former Egyptian president overthrown in an uprising in 2011, will be released from jail soon after a prosecutor cleared him in a corruption case, his lawyer and a judicial source said on Monday.

Mubarak, 85, was arrested after he was ousted. In scenes that mesmerised Arabs, the former leader appeared in a court-room cage during his trial on charges that ranged from corruption to complicity in the murder of protesters.

More than a year on, the only legal grounds for Mubarak's continued detention rest on another corruption case which his lawyer, Fareed el-Deeb, said would be settled swiftly.

"All we have left is a simple administrative procedure that should take no more than 48 hours. He should be freed by the end of the week," Deeb told Reuters.

Without confirming that Mubarak would be freed, a judicial source said the former leader would spend another two weeks behind bars before judicial authorities made a final decision in the outstanding case against him.

Mubarak, along with his interior minister, was convicted and sentenced to life in prison last year for failing to stop the killing of protesters in the revolt that swept him from power.

He still faces a retrial in that case after appeals from the prosecution and defence, but this would not necessarily require him to stay in jail. Mubarak did not appear at a hearing in the case on Saturday. He was also absent from Monday's proceedings.

Mubarak, who ruled Egypt for 30 years, is being held at Tora prison on the southern outskirts of Cairo, the facility where senior members of the Muslim Brotherhood have been detained since they were arrested in a crackdown on the organisation that began in July.

The military removed President Mohamed Mursi, a senior Brotherhood official, on July 3 after mass protests against his rule. Mursi is in detention at an undisclosed location.

He faces an investigation into accusations stemming from his escape from prison during the anti-Mubarak revolt. These include murder and conspiring with the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas. Mursi has not been formally indicted.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/08/19/uk-egypt-protests-mubarak-lawyer-idUKBRE97I0EN20130819
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 20, 2013, 09:09:38 PM
While the media in Ireland is fixated with 2 Irish girls at present, one in Peru and the other at Slane, 3 sisters and their brother from Dublin are currently in jail in Cairo facing serious charges arising out of the siege on the mosque at the weekend.

Considering what is going on in Cairo, and the complete lack of concern from the International community, I really feel these 4 are going to spend quite a while in jail.

To me, this is what we should be talking and doing something about, and not about what happened at Slane or in Peru. But hey, that is just my opinion.

Latest article from the Irish Times:

Egyptian media today reported that four Irish citizens are among nine foreigners to be jailed for up to 15 days pending investigation into charges including attempted murder, arson, belonging to an armed gang, and possession of arms and explosives.

The reports claim that the nine foreigners, who also include Canadian, Turkish and Syrian nationals, deny all charges which relate to the siege of Cairo’s al-Fath mosque at the weekend.

While the four Irish citizens were not named by the media outlets, it is understood they are the Halawa siblings.

A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said it was aware of the media reports in Egypt. “Unfortunately the situation in relation to legal proceedings against [the Halawas] is unclear at present,” he said.

The reports emerged after a representative from the Irish embassy in Cairo was granted consular access to four Irish siblings detained after security forces stormed the mosque on Saturday.

The diplomat met Omaima Halawa (21), her sisters Fatima (23) and Soumaya (27) and brother Ibrahim (17) at the security forces headquarters in the Tora district of Cairo this afternoon. The Halawas are the only Irish nationals being detained in in Cairo.

All four are being held together at the facility. The diplomat “spoke freely to them in person for an extended period of time” and passed on personal items from their mother who is in Cairo, according to sources. “They are upset about being in detention,” said one source.

The Halawa sisters appeared in good health but Ibrahim Halawa had a bandaged hand. He told the visiting diplomat that the injury was a result of a gunshot wound sustained during the mosque siege.

The Halawa family moved to Ireland 18 years ago. Their father, Sheikh Hussein Halawa, is imam at the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland, which is located in Clonskeagh, Dublin.

The Halawa sisters were born in Egypt and their brother was born in Ireland. All are Irish citizens and, according to their family in Dublin, all travelled to Egypt on Irish passports.

The siblings were on their annual family holiday to Egypt when they decided to take part in protests against the military overthrow last month of Mohammed Morsi, Egypt’s first democratically elected president.

The Halawas joined demonstrations on Cairo’s Ramses Square on Friday, the day the Muslim Brotherhood called for rallies against the ousting of the Brotherhood’s Morsi and the deadly security operation last Wednesday to evict his supporters from protest camps in the city.

Sheikh Halawa said he advised his children to seek refuge in the nearby al-Fath mosque after clashes that eventually claimed the lives of scores of people erupted in Ramses Square. Gunfights took place around the mosque as hundreds of Morsi supporters barricaded themselves inside. Security forces eventually overran the complex.

The Halawa siblings had also taken part in the weeks-long sit-in at Rabaa al-Adawiya, one of two encampments broken up by security forces last week with the loss of more than 600 lives.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/africa/irish-in-cairo-reportedly-jailed-as-charges-investigated-1.1499862
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 20, 2013, 11:51:49 PM
Egypt crisis: A national tragedy plays out at Cairo’s stinking mortuary

ROBERT FISK

Monday 19 August 2013


They had been cooked. It was the first expression that came to mind – and all too accurately – when I saw the remains of nine of the 34 prisoners who died at the hands of the Egyptian police on Sunday night.
Out on the desert road close to the Abu Zaabal prison, these men – seized in Ramses Square on Saturday after the Cairo police and the army stormed into the al Fath mosque – supposedly tried to overturn the prison van taking them to jail. The state security police fired a tear gas grenade into the vehicle, and all died. And having looked at those awful cadavers in Cairo’s stinking mortuary, I have to say that these poor men – not charged with any crime, unaccused, untried, victims of the glorious ‘state of emergency’ with which Egypt is now blessed – died most terribly.

There comes a time when mere descriptions cannot balance the horror of the dead. But lest history forget or treat them with less compassion than they deserve, we must, I fear, confront the reality. The bodies were hideously bloated and they had been burned from head to toe. One man had a laceration at the throat, caused perhaps by a knife or a bullet. A colleague saw five other corpses in a similar state but with bullet holes in the throat. Outside the mortuary, the state-hired thugs of the Egyptian interior ministry tried to frighten journalists away.

A middle-aged man whose friend had lost his son to police gunfire on Wednesday emerged from amid the screaming relatives – some of whom were vomiting on the concrete – and took me to a Sunni imam, immaculate in his red and white turban, who gently led me through two iron doors into the room of death. One of the morticians, Mohamed Doma, stared at the corpses in disbelief. So did the imam. And so did I. After walking past nine of these pitiful creatures – children of Egypt – I could see further corpses in another corridor. All, according to the medical staff, had been brought from Abu  Zaabal prison.

Not that they ever reached the jail – which I went to see yesterday – beside a grotty Nile canal fringed by old cement factories 28 miles north of Cairo. The prison walls are high, its gates attached to neo-Pharaonic pillars. According to the police, the 34 prisoners – some reports speak of 36 dead men – rocked the truck when it was part of a police convoy approaching the institution. When it was forced to stop, the prisoners – and this, remember, is the story from the police, who are believed to have killed more than 1000 of their fellow citizens these past few days – grabbed one of the policemen and, in a successful attempt to rescue him, his colleagues fired a tear gas grenade into the truck which was packed with prisoners.

So many ‘security force’ stories – like Muslim Brotherhood stories – have been proved untrue over the past few weeks. Another story, from the newly obedient Egyptian press, reports that “terrorists” stopped the convoy and tried to free the prisoners. Since the prisoners all died, we may never know how or why they were slaughtered. Needless to say, the dead had become ‘terrorists’ by last night – why else would ‘terrorists’ try to free them, if indeed they did? – and, once Egyptians had absorbed the news of the equally awful massacre of Egyptian security men in Sinai, this now became the Abu Zaabal Massacre, to be remembered alongside the Rabaa Massacre, the Nahda Massacre, the Ramses Square massacre and all the other massacres that seem likely to come.

After these ghastly scenes, the statistics of the Egyptian Centre for Economic and Social Research make solemn reading. It says that 1,295 Egyptians were killed between Wednesday morning and Friday, 1,063 on Wednesday alone – including 983 civilians 52 security personnel and 28 bodies found under the platform of the Rabaa mosque. Thirteen policemen and three civilians were killed in an attack on the police station in Kerdasa, 24 civilians in Alexandria, six in Sharqeya, six in Damietta, 13 in Suez, 45 in Fayoum 21 in Beni Suef, 68 in Minya. This is a national rather than a Cairo tragedy. But those bodies in the morgue I suppose, represent all of them.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 21, 2013, 08:25:15 AM
They are trying to crush the brotherhood with the backing of israel,saudi and the uae.  The cia coups in chile in 73 and iran in 53 were probably the same. Lies and mass murder.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on August 21, 2013, 09:30:00 AM
They are trying to crush the brotherhood with the backing of israel,saudi and the uae.  The cia coups in chile in 73 and iran in 53 were probably the same. Lies and mass murder.

What would the religious make up be of the police force and Army considering the country itself had a Muslim brotherhood majority??

I see the Americans are threatening to pull $1.5b in aid. I wonder is that military aid?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: armaghniac on August 21, 2013, 11:10:09 AM
American aid is military aid, mostly US made gear. This is under a deal where Isreal gets similar. Obama should stop both.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 21, 2013, 12:27:07 PM
American aid is military aid, mostly US made gear. This is under a deal where Isreal gets similar. Obama should stop both.
It all comes from the 1979 Camp David agreement that took Egypt offline in the Arab Israeli conflict.
Israel gets 3bn and Egypt gets 1.3bn to keep the border quiet.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 21, 2013, 02:05:41 PM
A Damascus opposition monitoring group has said 494 people have been killed in a gas attack and shelling by president Bashar al-Assad’s forces today, citing data from medical centres in the Syrian capital.

Syria has denied reports of chemical weapons being used in Damascus.

State television quoted a source as saying there was “no truth whatsover” to the reports, which it said were aimed at distracting a visiting team of United Nations chemical weapons experts from their mission.

The Damascus Media Office said in a statement 150 bodies were counted in Hammouriya, 100 in Kfar Batna, 67 in Saqba, 61 in Douma, 76 in Mouadamiya and 40 bodies were collected from Irbib.

“The attack began at around 3.00 am. Huge numbers of civilians were subjected to the gases. The numbers continued to increase rapidly as they suffocated to death, with lack of necessary medical supplies to save them,” the statement said.

Activists said rockets with chemical agents hit the suburbs of Ain Tarma, Zamalka and Jobar in the Ghouta region.
Bayan Baker, a nurse at Douma Emergency Collection facility, said many of the casualties were women and children.
“They arrived with their pupil dilated, cold limbs and foam in their mouths. The doctors say these are typical symptoms of nerve gas victims,” she said.

Britain has urged the Syrian government to allow the inspectors to visit the site of the reported attack.
A photo purportedly taken by activists in Douma showed the bodies of at least 16 children and three adults, one wearing combat fatigues, laid at the floor of a room in a medical facility where the bodies were collected.

The United States and European countries say they believe Assad’s government has used poison gas including the nerve agent Sarin in the past, which Washington called a “red line” that justified international military aid to the rebels.

Khaled Omar of the opposition local council in Ain Tarma said he saw at least 80 bodies at the Hajjah Hospital in Ain Tarma and at a makeshift clinic at Tatbiqiya School in the nearby district of Saqba.

“The attack took place at around 3:00am (midnight Irish time). Most of those killed were in their homes,” Mr Omar said.


http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/middle-east/activists-say-gas-attack-near-damascus-kills-almost-500-1.1500860
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 21, 2013, 10:25:38 PM
http://www.theonion.com/articles/breaking-middle-east-conflict-not-solved-today,33571/

Middle East Conflict Not Solved Today

CAIRO—According to late-breaking reports emerging from Damascus, Gaza, Baghdad and elsewhere across the region, the deadly, generations-long conflict in the Middle East was not resolved today.

Reporters at Mideast bureau offices as well as scores of eyewitnesses on the ground are confirming that, as of press time, local militant groups, government forces, insurgents, and religious fundamentalists in multiple countries had neither reached a ceasefire agreement nor secured a peace deal, and as a result did not usher in a new era of tolerance and stability to the region Monday.

Additionally, 100 percent of accounts confirm that the situation is presently violent and unsettled.

“We can officially announce that lasting peace was not established across the Middle East today,” said head of the United Nations Peacekeeping Department Hervé Lasdous in an afternoon press conference, confirming that the decades-old clashes that pervade nearly every country in the area had not been solved during the past 24 hours. “Ongoing political disputes, sectarian violence, and terrorist activity have not, as of yet, been brought to an end today, as no sides came together to seek a peaceful conclusion to the bloodshed and turmoil. A peace deal was not even considered, let alone drawn up or ratified.”

“After years of bitter, bloody conflict, we can state that the atrocities and violence that were once synonymous with the Middle East are still very much synonymous with the Middle East,” he added.

Lasdous’ comments were corroborated by numerous Middle Eastern heads of state, leaders of terrorist organizations, and tribal warlords, all of whom separately confirmed that the most entrenched and divisive conflicts of the modern age, which have left millions dead and disaffected tens of millions more, have not been settled in any military, diplomatic, or humanitarian sense in the past few hours.

At the time this article went to print, the latest reports indicated that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; the Syrian civil war; the Sunni-Shia conflict; the war in Afghanistan; the Iraqi insurgency; violent protests in Turkey and Egypt; fighting between Arabs and ethnic Kurds; the Sinai insurgency; internal unrest in Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen; and dozens of other conflicts were, in fact, still ongoing. Moreover, dozens of sources confirmed that brutality and strife, and not peace and prosperity, continued to dominate daily life in the region as of 6 p.m. local time today.

According to high-level sources with knowledge of the situation, the conflict is likely to persist into tonight and may continue into tomorrow as well.

“Neither we, nor our enemies, set down our arms today in the spirit of building peace,” said Abu Ubaida, a leader of the Palestinian resistance group al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigade, who stated that the idea of putting aside differences with his adversaries and working toward a mutually agreeable solution “really didn’t cross [his] mind” either this morning or this afternoon. “We did not find any common ground with the other side. We did not develop a roadmap to peace. And we certainly didn’t sit down in good faith with our historic enemies with the shared recognition that what both sides truly desire is a future for our children in which they are safe from harm. That definitely didn’t happen.”

“It’s safe to say that, since we awoke today, we haven’t taken any measurable step toward ending the persistent cycle of hatred and hostility that has defined our lives for generations,” Ubaida continued. “In fact, our sworn enemies remain just that, and we’re actually quite committed to going on killing them.”

Hailing the day’s developments as “pretty much the same” as those of any other day, sources throughout the region reported feeling not even the slightest bit hopeful about the prospect of a brighter future, citing no discernable change in the level of fighting and instability they experienced relative to the day before. Additionally, residents noted that the detonation of multiple car bombs, the massacre of innocent civilians, the perpetration of dozens of kidnappings, and the use of chemical weapons against a state’s own citizens were all concrete realities that had occurred within the past several hours, suggesting that, if anything, their lives may have actually grown worse since yesterday.

In addition, the region’s top diplomatic figures confirmed that they did not broker a historic peace accord Monday and therefore did not finally bring tranquility and a spirit of reconciliation to a people who had known nothing but war and hardship for generations.

“Didn’t happen today,” said President of the Syrian National Council George Sabra, speaking to reporters amid audible gunfire and occasional nearby explosions. “Nope. Not even close.”

Added Sabra, “We’ll let you know if it does.”

The Onion will continue to follow this story as it develops. Readers are encouraged to continue checking this website for hourly updates on whether the Middle East conflict has been resolved.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: macdanger2 on August 22, 2013, 03:15:15 AM
Hard to believe that Mubarak is going to be released while the democratically-elected Morsi is detained  :o


Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 22, 2013, 01:53:40 PM
Hard to believe that Mubarak is going to be released while the democratically-elected Morsi is detained  :o
It is consistent with past behaviour in Iran, indonesia and chile . Our son of a bitch is rarely elected .
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: mylestheslasher on August 22, 2013, 08:14:51 PM
Shocking pictures in the papers today of murdered people, many of them innocent kids, by a gas attack in Syria. Could Assad be this mental? The conspiracy theorists say it makes no sense that he would do this in a war he is winning. I don't know but I hope whoever is reponsible gets what is coming to them. I also hope whoever makes and supplies this gas gets what is coming to them too.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: trileacman on August 22, 2013, 09:23:07 PM
Lads help me out here. I could quite reasonably follow the conflict in Isreal, Iraq and Afghanistan but the current flashpoints have me bamboozled.

Are the current uprisings linked to the long history of troubles in the region? Because to me it doesn't seem so. It looks more like a internal problem in both countries. And despite whoever or whatever comes to power the West is always supporting the wrong side as GHD and Seafoid continually decry.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 22, 2013, 10:20:40 PM
Middle East landscape rapidly changing... back to what it was in 2010....
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on August 22, 2013, 10:25:25 PM
From twitter:

God ‏@TheTweetOfGod 21 Aug
There is no area on earth to which I have devoted more time and attention than the Middle East and just look at the f**king place.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: macdanger2 on August 23, 2013, 06:23:53 AM
Shocking pictures in the papers today of murdered people, many of them innocent kids, by a gas attack in Syria. Could Assad be this mental?

What happened is terrible but is dying as a result of chemical weapons any worse than being killed by napalm, cluster bombs or a drone strike? All these methods of warfare are designed to indiscriminately kill as many people as possible but in the media at any rate, chemical warfare seems to be seen as a line not to be crossed for some reason. I'm not defending it in any way but it's a bit laughable that you can kill thousands of people in other ways without any real recriminations but using chemicals is a big no-no.

On the production side, chances are that a lot of these chemical weapons are manufactured in France / Britain / US or China / Russia.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2013, 06:31:26 AM
Shocking pictures in the papers today of murdered people, many of them innocent kids, by a gas attack in Syria. Could Assad be this mental?

What happened is terrible but is dying as a result of chemical weapons any worse than being killed by napalm, cluster bombs or a drone strike? All these methods of warfare are designed to indiscriminately kill as many people as possible but in the media at any rate, chemical warfare seems to be seen as a line not to be crossed for some reason. I'm not defending it in any way but it's a bit laughable that you can kill thousands of people in other ways without any real recriminations but using chemicals is a big no-no.

On the production side, chances are that a lot of these chemical weapons are manufactured in France / Britain / US or China / Russia.
Conventional weapons are apparently more moral. If Israel drops cluster bombs on Gaza it is civilised.
Very nice way to die.
There is no discussion on how our media report war. We are never told why wars start and who runs them. The enemy is never the opposition or the iranians or the israelis. The enemy is war and the system that generates it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Abble on August 23, 2013, 08:02:16 AM
Shocking pictures in the papers today of murdered people, many of them innocent kids, by a gas attack in Syria. Could Assad be this mental?

What happened is terrible but is dying as a result of chemical weapons any worse than being killed by napalm, cluster bombs or a drone strike? All these methods of warfare are designed to indiscriminately kill as many people as possible but in the media at any rate, chemical warfare seems to be seen as a line not to be crossed for some reason. I'm not defending it in any way but it's a bit laughable that you can kill thousands of people in other ways without any real recriminations but using chemicals is a big no-no.

what is maybe worse, is seeing the survivors and how their bodies react to a chemical attack. you would almost prefer to see them with busted legs, battered and bloodied from a normal attack. if they get killed by any form of attack then that's it, they're gone but can these poor kids who survive, recover fully from a chemical attack, I'm not sure. its almost like a form of nuclear attack
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2013, 01:20:24 PM
http://www.dailycensored.com/egypts-reign-of-terror/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: macdanger2 on August 23, 2013, 04:04:36 PM
There is no discussion on how our media report war. We are never told why wars start and who runs them. The enemy is never the opposition or the iranians or the israelis. The enemy is war and the system that generates it.

True - and that's without mentioning the wars we never even hear about, you can be sure there are hundreds people dying every day in various conflicts in Africa (e.g Congo, Nigeria) and elsewhere which are almost never reported. Why they start is likely to do with control of / exploitation of natural resources. As consumers of these natural resources, a large portion of the guilt probably lies with us - reporting of that sort generally isn't encouraged
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 23, 2013, 07:55:32 PM
There is no discussion on how our media report war. We are never told why wars start and who runs them. The enemy is never the opposition or the iranians or the israelis. The enemy is war and the system that generates it.

True - and that's without mentioning the wars we never even hear about, you can be sure there are hundreds people dying every day in various conflicts in Africa (e.g Congo, Nigeria) and elsewhere which are almost never reported. Why they start is likely to do with control of / exploitation of natural resources. As consumers of these natural resources, a large portion of the guilt probably lies with us - reporting of that sort generally isn't encouraged

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/apr/05/how-millions-have-been-dying-congo/?page=2

"Peter Eichstaedt’s short book, Consuming the Congo: War and Conflict Minerals in the World’s Deadliest Place*, takes up the story where Jason Stearns leaves off. Eichstaedt, a formidable journalist and Africa expert, traces the whole grimy trail of exploitation. It begins with ragged villagers digging the gold, tin, or coltan (used in computers and cell phones), continues up through the militias who tax the diggers ruthlessly, on to the négociants who in turn sell to the comptoirs in the eastern Congo cities of Goma or Bukavu, who deliver the ore to international smelting corporations, mostly in Asia. So far efforts to smash this chain—which still finances the militias in their campaigns of mass rape and massacre—have been unsuccessful."
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2013, 06:11:48 AM
Lads help me out here. I could quite reasonably follow the conflict in Isreal, Iraq and Afghanistan but the current flashpoints have me bamboozled.

Are the current uprisings linked to the long history of troubles in the region? Because to me it doesn't seem so. It looks more like a internal problem in both countries. And despite whoever or whatever comes to power the West is always supporting the wrong side as GHD and Seafoid continually decry.
I think that order is breaking down in the Middle East with the relative decline of American power and the rise of smaller powers and it's not clear what it will look like when the dust settles.

http://www.lobelog.com/washingtons-worries-grow-over-saudi-ties/
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Franko on August 24, 2013, 07:18:58 PM
Right lads, I don't have a particular dog in this fight but it seems to me that some lads will take any and every opportunity to criticise the yanks.
Now before they are slated for whatever they are about to do or not do in Syria, what do you lads think is the right course of action is for them to take?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 24, 2013, 07:30:37 PM
Franko - they won't say, these boys just paste stories here from papers. I hope the yanks do some air strikes against that sc**bag Assad.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2013, 07:32:53 PM
Right lads, I don't have a particular dog in this fight but it seems to me that some lads will take any and every opportunity to criticise the yanks.
Now before they are slated for whatever they are about to do or not do in Syria, what do you lads think is the right course of action is for them to take?
The Yanks should stop backing Israel at the UN with their veto and call a regional peace conference to get rid of the nukes and get some investment in.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Franko on August 24, 2013, 07:36:12 PM
Right lads, I don't have a particular dog in this fight but it seems to me that some lads will take any and every opportunity to criticise the yanks.
Now before they are slated for whatever they are about to do or not do in Syria, what do you lads think is the right course of action is for them to take?
The Yanks should stop backing Israel at the UN with their veto and call a regional peace conference to get rid of the nukes and get some investment in.
OK fair enough - but that all seems very 'long term'. What do you think they should do in the next few days/weeks?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 24, 2013, 07:44:47 PM
Great idea seafood. I'm sure that will be a great help to people Assad is gasing!
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2013, 08:14:59 PM
Great idea seafood. I'm sure that will be a great help to people Assad is gasing!
would you prefer depleted uranium?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: trileacman on August 24, 2013, 09:16:57 PM
It's the usual Yank bashing in here.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 24, 2013, 10:03:36 PM
Lunatic is gassing innocent people and your solution is to cut Israel adrift and call a peace conference. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 24, 2013, 10:04:00 PM
The Middle East is a mess because

a) It has the  best oil reserves in the world and our economies can't function without a relibalbe supply of oil
b) Israel and we the owe the Jews because of WW2

The last 60 years have seen countless wars because we couldn't let the locals decide their own future because
a) they might not want to sell us the oil
b) Israel 

Even Pakistan was allowed develop democracy but there was no way it would fly with the Arabs because if there was no oil there would be no Western economy.

So maybe it does come across as the usual Yank bashing but the Yanks wanted that system and that is the system they put in place after the war, with a lot of help from Europe.

Now the American century is over and a lot of things are no longer certain. 

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 24, 2013, 11:18:34 PM
Lunatic is gassing innocent people and your solution is to cut Israel adrift and call a peace conference. Unbelievable.

And what evidence do you have that says Assad is responsible?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: give her dixie on August 24, 2013, 11:22:04 PM
Franko - they won't say, these boys just paste stories here from papers. I hope the yanks do some air strikes against that sc**bag Assad.

Maybe if you read the articles you will broaden your mind. Calling for airstrikes is very humane all right.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: muppet on August 25, 2013, 01:18:38 AM
Lunatic is gassing innocent people and your solution is to cut Israel adrift and call a peace conference. Unbelievable.

Maybe education cut advocates have a point.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 07:18:50 AM
Lunatic is gassing innocent people and your solution is to cut Israel adrift and call a peace conference. Unbelievable.
Give us your solution, Itchy.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 08:04:17 AM
I already did. It didn't mention Israel so you probably ignored it.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 08:10:24 AM
Lunatic is gassing innocent people and your solution is to cut Israel adrift and call a peace conference. Unbelievable.

And what evidence do you have that says Assad is responsible?

Let me guess, Israel did it right?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: theskull1 on August 25, 2013, 09:51:26 AM
I think ghd's question is completely valid. The middle east has a lot of players
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 10:06:15 AM
It is. Then is it reasonable of me to request proof that Israel fires rockets into Gaza and some one else trying to blacken Israels name? Of course it isn't.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 10:13:58 AM
I already did. It didn't mention Israel so you probably ignored it.
what would airstrikes (far sexier word than indiscriminate aerial bombing) achieve ?

BTW do you think the Brits should have bombed Tyrone in 1974  ?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 10:34:23 AM
Assad has a conventional army. It is not like the Taliban or IRA. Targeting his military bases and wrecking the means to launch some of his rockets is a reasonable response. No I don't think the Brits should bomb Tyrone but I do think that is a typical brainless comparison from you.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 11:04:06 AM
Assad has a conventional army. It is not like the Taliban or IRA. Targeting his military bases and wrecking the means to launch some of his rockets is a reasonable response. No I don't think the Brits should bomb Tyrone but I do think that is a typical brainless comparison from you.
Leave out the ad homs, Itchy. You should be able to make your point without resorting to them.
Do you think Qatar got value for money for the Billion dollars it spent funding the Syrian opposition?
Should the Yanks intervene so the jihadis and the sunni extremists take over ? Did that work in Afghanistan ?
And how do you think it will influence the Iran situation?   
Do ordinary Syrians deserve  any say in any of this?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 11:19:24 AM
Seafood - you don't give a shit about 'ordinary' Syrians (whatever an ordinary Syrian is). You just want to find another reason to hate Israelis in every conflict, this is all Israels fault isn't it. Yes there are bad forces on the many opposition sides but none of them have access to weapons such as Gas which a totally illegal means of waging war. Tell me will all the different factions in Syria turn up at this peace conference of yours.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 12:47:29 PM
Seafood - you don't give a shit about 'ordinary' Syrians (whatever an ordinary Syrian is). You just want to find another reason to hate Israelis in every conflict, this is all Israels fault isn't it. Yes there are bad forces on the many opposition sides but none of them have access to weapons such as Gas which a totally illegal means of waging war. Tell me will all the different factions in Syria turn up at this peace conference of yours.
give it a rest itchy. Since when has international law or the geneva conventions applied to the West's wars in the Middle East? Libya worked out fabliss, didn't it?  Bombing Syria won't achieve anything. How would you like your sister selling herself in a refugee camp tent because Qatar wants regime change in cavan? The whole thing is a big f**king mess. The only thing guaranteed is that civilians get shafted.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 01:30:19 PM
Seafood you are impossible to debate with. Your sister statement is just unreal.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 01:41:34 PM
Seafood you are impossible to debate with. Your sister statement is just unreal.
Itchy, you can do far better than that. Do you know how war works? The most vulnerable families are left with nothing.
Prostitution goes with airstrikes like strawberry goes with cream.
So if you want a full blown war at least defend the fallout.

And do you want to take Iran out at the same time so Israel gets to control the whole region?

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 01:56:52 PM
You do realise there is already a war in Syria? Do tell me all about your first hand knowledge of war Seafood. International warrior like you must have some stories. And then the mask slips, Israel is your main concern. Let's just eliminate Israel and all will be well in the middle East. You are a headcase.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 08:49:55 PM

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/aug/24/options-syria

Choosing between bad options in Syria becomes ever more complex

The west needs to address the detail, not unleash rhetoric
 
"One defining feature of western foreign policy over the past two-and-a-half decades is the question of when, in what circumstances, and in what way the international community should intervene to prevent large-scale human rights abuses. The doctrine of responsibility to protect – R2P – was inspired in large part by the bloodshed that followed the break-up of Yugoslavia when, as today, the world seemed unable to shape a coherent response.

The promise that it once held, despite the criticism of some states that it threatened the principle of national sovereignty, has been badly eroded in the past 10 years. An illegal war in Iraq dressed up as a protective necessity has been followed by other interventions that have backfired, not least in Libya. In the process, different models of intervention have been destruction-tested. The large-scale and hugely costly US-led commitments to reconstruction and democracy in Iraq and Afghanistan have little to show for the effort except a continuing cycle of bloodshed and instability. Intervention-lite – in Libya again for instance – has left a country close to the brink of anarchy. And where the international community has forsworn any meaningful pressure – in Syria, and now in Egypt – events, at every juncture, have taken a turn for the worse.

If the issues involved have been complicated, it is because the US has, in recent years, relentlessly undermined any claim it might have had to moral leadership. Rendition, Guantánamo Bay and drone killings, which have all claimed too many civilian lives, have tarnished its reputation, not least in Asia and the Middle East. The UN Security Council, and in particular its five permanent members, is ever more at odds, with Moscow and Washington implacably opposed over Syria.

Today, the world appears to be at a crossroads. The stark and compelling evidence of large-scale atrocities, including the strongly suspected use of chemical weapons outside Damascus last week, killing perhaps hundreds of people, comes amid a growing perception that a weak and divided international community is powerless and unwilling to act on crimes against humanity. A sense of impunity feeds boldness and escalation. In Damascus, Cairo and elsewhere, actors today are making dangerous decisions based on the calculation that they will not be called to account.

In these circumstances, it is the easiest thing to say that, in the case of Syria in particular, there are only bad options. That may be true. But increasingly it may be that there is a worse option: doing nothing.

This paper has resisted the calls for military intervention in Syria. It remains the case that such intervention seems a deeply perilous route, with no guarantee of success and pregnant with the risk of triggering a wider regional war. But we do appear to be coming ever closer to a tipping point, with difficult judgments ahead. The recent statements from William Hague and President Obama have raised the temperature and increased the likelihood of some form of action or sanction if it is conclusively proved that the Syrian regime is authoring chemical attacks on its citizens. Hague is right to say that "a chemical attack ... is not something that a humane and civilised world can ignore".

Yet the case for military intervention has still to be made. Obama seems intent, rightly, on getting international agreement for an even more limited form of action – securing chemical weapons or neutralising missile sites. And, looking back at Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan, who can say with any certainty that the lives of Syrians would improve in the long term if such a course of action was taken?

But as the situation deteriorates, there is a responsibility on all our parts to engage meaningfully with this debate and consider the choices we might face. If, after due consideration, the decision is made to leave well alone, we will at least be clearer as to why we have made that choice.

Last week, the French foreign minister said that "force may be needed" in the event of a chemical attack. But what kind of force, and from where, and to achieve what? And what then? Does force come allied to political initiatives, or not? We need to address the detail, not unleash rhetoric.

There are no easy answers here, but we need to ask the questions. And we should trouble ourselves to think through the possible outcomes for the people of Syria. Until the most recent statements from the US and the UK, it looked increasingly like we weren't bothered and didn't care.

We can avert our eyes when "suspected" chemical attacks take place. Can we still avert our eyes if they are proved to have taken place? The answer may still be yes, but let's explain to those caught in the Syrian nightmare why that is so."

Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 09:05:04 PM
You do realise there is already a war in Syria? Do tell me all about your first hand knowledge of war Seafood. International warrior like you must have some stories. And then the mask slips, Israel is your main concern. Let's just eliminate Israel and all will be well in the middle East. You are a headcase.
Thanks Itchy.
Always a pleasure discussing the region with you.
Do I need firsthand experience of war? Don't you have newspapers where you live? 
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
Its just you speak with such authority I assumed you must have been in a war zone, I even feared for your sister. At least you've confirmed now your authority comes from a newspaper, thanks for clearing that up.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 25, 2013, 09:25:58 PM
Its just you speak with such authority I assumed you must have been in a war zone, I even feared for your sister. At least you've confirmed now your authority comes from a newspaper, thanks for clearing that up.
FFS Itchy. give it a rest.
What's wrong with reading? Do you have to experience everything before you can understand anything?

Do you have to be American to have an opinion on the Republican party?
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Itchy on August 25, 2013, 09:29:36 PM
No. I just found your previous condescending statement on whether I understood what happens in war to be something a hardened veteran of war would say, not an avid reader of the guardian. Of course you are entitled to be a condescending know all based on reading a few papers, no problem.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2013, 08:34:06 AM
Guess who is asking Obama to bomb the shit of Syria

http://www.foreignpolicyi.org/files/2013-08-27-Open%20letter%20to%20POTUS%20on%20Syria.pdf

The same people behind the war in Iraq
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: johnneycool on August 28, 2013, 08:58:03 AM
No. I just found your previous condescending statement on whether I understood what happens in war to be something a hardened veteran of war would say, not an avid reader of the guardian. Of course you are entitled to be a condescending know all based on reading a few papers, no problem.

Itchy, I can understand where you're coming from, it looks all too obvious that Assad gassed people in his own country, that can't be acceptable to anyone irrespective of who we believe carried it out.

The problem is we've been told too many lies in the past about weapons of mass destruction, etc, etc, and its proven to be untrue and the ulterior motives have come out later whilst 100's of thousands of Iraqis died in the pursuit of their own liberation at the hands of their so called liberators who've left the place in a sectarian blood bath but creamed off their oil and the American tax payer paying billions into the coffers of the american war machine on a yearly basis.
The "war on terror" in Afghanistan is a joke and the Taliban will be back in power and probably stronger than ever days after the Americans leave there, Libya is conveniently forgotten about after the mess the French and British left it in after arming via some middle east intermediary or another a group of extremists with heavy links to the Taliban in Afghanistan as well. Colonel Gadaffi was brought in from the cold when he opened up his oil fields to the french and British, then lo and behold be turfs out a French oil company and he's persona non grata again and the French couldn't get their jets over Libya quick enough.
These places are not simply baddies vrs goodies as we're led to believe, I don't know enough about it, but you can be sure there's outside influences like the Russians, Chinese, Americans, French and British want to have a friendly government in that region irrespective if they're democratically elected or not.

In the meantime innocent civilians die in their droves as usual.
Title: Re: Middle East landscape rapidly changing
Post by: Count 10 on August 28, 2013, 09:10:34 AM
No. I just found your previous condescending statement on whether I understood what happens in war to be something a hardened veteran of war would say, not an avid reader of the guardian. Of course you are entitled to be a condescending know all based on reading a few papers, no problem.

Itchy, I can understand where you're coming from, it looks all too obvious that Assad gassed people in his own country, that can't be acceptable to anyone irrespective of who we believe carried it out.

The problem is we've been told too many lies in the past about weapons of mass destruction, etc, etc, and its proven to be untrue and the ulterior motives have come out later whilst 100's of thousands of Iraqis died in the pursuit of their own liberation at the hands of their so called liberators who've left the place in a sectarian blood bath but creamed off their oil and the American tax payer paying billions into the coffers of the american war machine on a yearly basis.
The "war on terror" in Afghanistan is a joke and the Taliban will be back in power and probably stronger than ever days after the Americans leave there, Libya is conveniently forgotten about after the mess the French and British left it in after arming via some middle east intermediary or another a group of extremists with heavy links to the Taliban in Afghanistan as well. Colonel Gadaffi was brought in from the cold when he opened up his oil fields to the french and British, then lo and behold be turfs out a French oil company and he's persona non grata again and the French couldn't get their jets over Libya quick enough.
These places are not simply baddies vrs goodies as we're led to believe, I don't know enough about it, but you can be sure there's outside influences like the Russians, Chinese, Americans, French and British want to have a friendly government in that region irrespective if they're democratically elected or not