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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: ardmhachaabu on April 23, 2010, 09:32:25 PM

Title: The SDLP
Post by: ardmhachaabu on April 23, 2010, 09:32:25 PM
For years I really respected them especially when Hume was at the helm.  Since Durkan gave up the leadership I think they have went into terminal decline and as there isn't much of an SDLP youth wing I would say they are a spent political force at this stage.  That doesn't mean they will lose Westminster seats though, I think there are a hardcore of people who will never vote for shinners who would vote SDLP now.  Unless some kind of middle ground politics starts to become the order of the day the SDLP will disappear while the extremists on the nationalist side will benefit ultimately
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 23, 2010, 09:34:02 PM
They were in decline before Durkan stepped aside. Admittedly, since Richie took over, they've nose dived.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 23, 2010, 09:37:22 PM
Never had much respect for them, never seen them doing much locally. In fact you wouldn't see them locally unless there was an election.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Minder on April 23, 2010, 09:40:33 PM
Never had much respect for them, never seen them doing much locally. In fact you wouldn't see them locally unless there was an election.

I can say the same for Sinn Fein in West Belfast, maybe they just take it for granted.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 23, 2010, 09:45:14 PM
Never had much respect for them, never seen them doing much locally. In fact you wouldn't see them locally unless there was an election.

I can say the same for Sinn Fein in West Belfast, maybe they just take it for granted.
Local Shinners would do a lot in our area, just a pity the can't/won't get rid of the ceasefire soldiers and sheep.
Sinn Fein will go the same way as the SDLP in a few years when McGuinness and Adams step aside.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardmhachaabu on April 23, 2010, 09:50:11 PM
I had reason to contact SF and the SDLP over an issue my wife was having.  Neither of them really did anything about it even though it was clearly within their power to do so, shinners sent an email while the SDLP did a bit of donkey work in terms of phone calls, emails, letters, I won't go into details on here about it for obvious reasons but nothing seemed to work.  By chance I happened to bump into Ken Magennis on a bus from Belfast to Enniskillen and I thought I would chance my arm with him.  I was wearing an Armagh shirt at the time and had a bit of craic with him about Tyrone and that he was a bit of a hypocrite watching matches on TV when he wouldn't go to one if it was on a Sunday.  He proved to be way more helpful than either of the SDLP or the shinners.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hurler on the Bitch on April 23, 2010, 09:54:38 PM
Jeyes - yer wan Ritchie really is hard to like! She seems to lack any human or personal touch that would appeal to the masses. Also, would be the last one to laugh at a joke methinks as humour would not be her strong point. Just goes to show: once a schoolteacher, always a schoolteacher - I'm sure many in the SDLP ranks have had had a degrading lecture from that ice maiden. God help her other half - if there is one?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on April 23, 2010, 10:50:36 PM
I like red ties.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardmhachaabu on April 23, 2010, 11:01:22 PM
I like red ties.
:D

Maith duit
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 23, 2010, 11:32:33 PM
To be honest, I don't think Ritchie is the worst politician - she seems to do a decent job as DSD Minister and I get the impression she's very genuine. But she's a terrible public speaker, very unnatural, and a poor choice as party leader.

The SDLP will always have a core vote and I think it's important the Nationalists have an alternative to SF.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Main Street on April 24, 2010, 12:09:07 AM
Wearing the Armagh shirt was the key, brought out the sympathy for a constituent who can only suffer so much.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Orior on April 24, 2010, 12:15:30 AM
Seamus Mallon was the best ever SDLP politician. Dont know if he ever wore a red tie.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 24, 2010, 12:16:37 AM
Seamus Mallon was the best ever SDLP politician. Dont know if he ever wore a red tie.

:o

John Hume was the best.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bennydorano on April 24, 2010, 01:29:48 AM
Never had much respect for them, never seen them doing much locally. In fact you wouldn't see them locally unless there was an election.

I can say the same for Sinn Fein in West Belfast, maybe they just take it for granted.
Local Shinners would do a lot in our area, just a pity the can't/won't get rid of the ceasefire soldiers and sheep.
Sinn Fein will go the same way as the SDLP in a few years when McGuinness and Adams step aside.
Dont know about that, Conor Murphy looks a nailed on successor to these boys and  he seems shrewd enough, plus if the SDLP remain as woeful, SF will still be dominant by default.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: sandwiches_in_the_boot on April 24, 2010, 02:08:53 AM
The Shinners rely on Westminster money to keep a lot of their backroom staff jobs going in West Tyrone.

Some would call this irony. I am one of them.

I enjoyed Gerry slagging Ritchie for the SDLP taking a paid trip to Afghanistan from the UK govt,yet Sinn Fein are taking thousands upon thousands from the same govt for cushy flats in London.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 24, 2010, 02:19:42 AM
The Shinners rely on Westminster money to keep a lot of their backroom staff jobs going in West Tyrone.

Indeed and Stoops like Durkan rely on Westminster to keep him and his family in style.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Myles Na G. on April 24, 2010, 07:30:47 AM
Jeyes - yer wan Ritchie really is hard to like! She seems to lack any human or personal touch that would appeal to the masses. Also, would be the last one to laugh at a joke methinks as humour would not be her strong point. Just goes to show: once a schoolteacher, always a schoolteacher - I'm sure many in the SDLP ranks have had had a degrading lecture from that ice maiden. God help her other half - if there is one?
There isn't.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gorm agus bui on April 24, 2010, 08:00:53 AM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 24, 2010, 08:04:15 AM
Jeyes - yer wan Ritchie really is hard to like! She seems to lack any human or personal touch that would appeal to the masses. Also, would be the last one to laugh at a joke methinks as humour would not be her strong point. Just goes to show: once a schoolteacher, always a schoolteacher - I'm sure many in the SDLP ranks have had had a degrading lecture from that ice maiden. God help her other half - if there is one?
There isn't.

There isn't an other half or there isn't a God?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Myles Na G. on April 24, 2010, 08:10:45 AM
Jeyes - yer wan Ritchie really is hard to like! She seems to lack any human or personal touch that would appeal to the masses. Also, would be the last one to laugh at a joke methinks as humour would not be her strong point. Just goes to show: once a schoolteacher, always a schoolteacher - I'm sure many in the SDLP ranks have had had a degrading lecture from that ice maiden. God help her other half - if there is one?
There isn't.

There isn't an other half or there isn't a God?
All of the above.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Minder on April 24, 2010, 09:53:28 AM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 24, 2010, 10:12:32 AM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.

Was she not over-ruled on that in court?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Tony Baloney on April 24, 2010, 10:24:34 AM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.

Was she not over-ruled on that in court?
I think Minders point is that she was prepared to take a stand on a point of principle. A rare commodity on the hill.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Minder on April 24, 2010, 10:29:44 AM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.

Was she not over-ruled on that in court?

She was.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: The Worker on April 24, 2010, 11:28:46 AM
stoops round my door canvasing there
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 24, 2010, 11:31:41 AM
stoops round my door canvasing there

Stoops on your stoop?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 24, 2010, 12:08:09 PM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader

As a Minister, I'd rate her very highly. She's not a leader as you say. I heard she's a nightmare to work with.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 24, 2010, 12:24:00 PM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader

As a Minister, I'd rate her very highly. She's not a leader as you say. I heard she's a nightmare to work with.

You're not a Minister ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 24, 2010, 12:25:16 PM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader

As a Minister, I'd rate her very highly. She's not a leader as you say. I heard she's a nightmare to work with.
:D
You're not a Minister ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 24, 2010, 12:25:41 PM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader

As a Minister, I'd rate her very highly. She's not a leader as you say. I heard she's a nightmare to work with.

Did someone say I was? Did I say I was?

You're not a Minister ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 24, 2010, 12:26:22 PM
Ritchie does not have great public persona
But she has done good job in DSD.
Very good locally but def not a leader

As a Minister, I'd rate her very highly. She's not a leader as you say. I heard she's a nightmare to work with.
:D
You're not a Minister ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: thewobbler on April 24, 2010, 06:49:58 PM
John Hume and Seamus Mallon may have brought the SDLP to the fore but it is both sad and ironic that those two men also destroyed the party. For two decades they dominated every position within the party, took every press conference, featured in every photograph and article. Looking back now it seems that they deliberately prevented any other party member from raising their public profile. Even riding on their coat tails seems to be have been banned.

As such, when they stepped down, they left behind a chasm, filled with faceless, bland politicans - people who meant well, but were used to following the party line from a distance.


Sinn Fein will face a similar problem within a decade. They've done much more than Hume & Mallon every did to promote other public profiles, but the more renowned of these will be up for retirement around the same time as the main men. Also, good luck to anyone who wants to keep that party united once Adams and McGuinness movie along.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: lawnseed on April 24, 2010, 07:18:42 PM
they might have stood a chance with Allister McDonnell as the leader but Marguerite is so annoying. Adams blew her out of the water on itv and hes not even the strongest debater the shinners have. the stoops are just too goody goody they try to be everything to everyone but get so diluted that they say nothing at all. they damaged themselves by trying to tie up with Fianna fall and Bertie when their sister party in the south was labour which shows they are power hungry and without principles. when Hume finished with Derry it was a thriving city mallon however had little to show for a lenghty career in Parliament, indeed his success is largely due to unionists giving the stoops their second preference votes to keep the shinners out
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hurler on the Bitch on April 24, 2010, 09:42:29 PM
they might have stood a chance with Allister McDonnell as the leader but Marguerite is so annoying. Adams blew her out of the water on itv and hes not even the strongest debater the shinners have. the stoops are just too goody goody they try to be everything to everyone but get so diluted that they say nothing at all. they damaged themselves by trying to tie up with Fianna fall and Bertie when their sister party in the south was labour which shows they are power hungry and without principles. when Hume finished with Derry it was a thriving city mallon however had little to show for a lenghty career in Parliament, indeed his success is largely due to unionists giving the stoops their second preference votes to keep the shinners out

No transferable vote in Westminster, so that argument is blown out of the water. Seamus was another one of the school teacher class in the SDLP just like Ritchie. She really comes over as a dragon without a sense of humour or irony. While I find McDonnell arrogant, he does have a human touch and, of course, is a GAA man. I hope the SDLP do self-destruct - they really are just a shower of offspring from the historical pig-owning classes on this ISLAND. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 24, 2010, 09:46:11 PM
For years I really respected them especially when Hume was at the helm.  Since Durkan gave up the leadership I think they have went gone into terminal decline and as there isn't much of an SDLP youth wing I would say they are a spent political force at this stage..

FFS if you're going to trumpet about the Stoopers, at least get your native English language right!  ;)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 24, 2010, 10:09:25 PM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.

Was she not over-ruled on that in court?
I think Minders point is that she was prepared to take a stand on a point of principle. A rare commodity on the hill.

Well it sounds like then either she was grandstanding if she knew she had no authority or incompetent because she didn't know.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Minder on April 24, 2010, 10:14:40 PM
Richie seems a bit our of her depth as a leader, maybe that will change as she gains more experience but she alwas carries some credit for refusing to hand over £1m+  to the UDA for "Conflict Transformation" or whatever they call it.

Was she not over-ruled on that in court?
I think Minders point is that she was prepared to take a stand on a point of principle. A rare
commodity on the hill.

Well it sounds like then either she was grandstanding if she knew she had no authority or incompetent because she didn't know.

Maybe she should have caved in and gave them the money and then she would have been criticised more. Damned if you do.........
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardmhachaabu on April 24, 2010, 10:39:13 PM
For years I really respected them especially when Hume was at the helm.  Since Durkan gave up the leadership I think they have went gone into terminal decline and as there isn't much of an SDLP youth wing I would say they are a spent political force at this stage..

FFS if you're going to trumpet about the Stoopers, at least get your native English language right!  ;)
:D

I don't trumpet about anyone FoSB.  You know what though, I have more trouble with gramadách na Gaeilge and I worry more about that than I do about my English
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: magickingdom on April 24, 2010, 10:42:10 PM
John Hume and Seamus Mallon may have brought the SDLP to the fore but it is both sad and ironic that those two men also destroyed the party. For two decades they dominated every position within the party, took every press conference, featured in every photograph and article. Looking back now it seems that they deliberately prevented any other party member from raising their public profile. Even riding on their coat tails seems to be have been banned.

As such, when they stepped down, they left behind a chasm, filled with faceless, bland politicans - people who meant well, but were used to following the party line from a distance.


Sinn Fein will face a similar problem within a decade. They've done much more than Hume & Mallon every did to promote other public profiles, but the more renowned of these will be up for retirement around the same time as the main men. Also, good luck to anyone who wants to keep that party united once Adams and McGuinness movie along.

when adams and mcguinness move along sf chances might improve big time in the south
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 24, 2010, 11:45:17 PM
Think that is a bit of a fallacy magic as I don't think people vote for personality or if they do its a minor factor. SF need to build their core vote and expand their organisation in the south and that for me that means getting back to community activism.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: longrunsthefox on April 25, 2010, 12:32:29 AM
John Hume and Seamus Mallon may have brought the SDLP to the fore but it is both sad and ironic that those two men also destroyed the party. For two decades they dominated every position within the party, took every press conference, featured in every photograph and article. Looking back now it seems that they deliberately prevented any other party member from raising their public profile. Even riding on their coat tails seems to be have been banned.

As such, when they stepped down, they left behind a chasm, filled with faceless, bland politicans - people who meant well, but were used to following the party line from a distance.


Sinn Fein will face a similar problem within a decade. They've done much more than Hume & Mallon every did to promote other public profiles, but the more renowned of these will be up for retirement around the same time as the main men. Also, good luck to anyone who wants to keep that party united once Adams and McGuinness movie along.

I don't think that was their destruction. Hume knew when he went into talks with Adams it might cost the SDLP dearly if they went by the ballod box only rather than the armalite as well. He was prepared to do that for peace and took the risk agaisnt the wishes of many in his own party. There were a lot of people couldn't go with the armed struggle, or watever you wish to call it, that went over to vote for Sinn Fein after the ceasefire. Certainly the SDLP politicains are bland but there aren't too many with the personality or charm of Martin Luther Kings or JFK in Sinn Fein either. 
   
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 25, 2010, 01:07:16 AM
I could write an essay on how I feel the stoops are a joke of an entity. I'll list a number of examples which to me, typify the SDLP and their shade of 'nationalism'.

1. Post Nationalism
The phrase which sums up th SDLP westminster campaign of 2001. Describing themselves as post nationalist seems to have been the turning point in that key election and they have never properly recovered.

2. Pretence
Again, in 2001, Brid Rodgers canvassed for votes at a Tyrone game in Clones wearing a fake Tyrone shirt with her name printed across the back and holding a soccer ball.

3. Complete disrespect for nationalists who vote for the other main nationalist party
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhqlidcwmhsn/ - In this instance they showed a complete disregard for the mandate given to SF by their voters and showed their level of committment to nationalism by joining a dirty pact with the two unionist parties. This was evidenced at a local level in my own are also at several recent elections. Coming from a Republican area, the SDLP in my local polling station often had a tactic of objecting to as many people as possible inside the station in the evening time; thereby preventing the lines of people still in the queue outside from voting once closing time came.

4. Confusion
- As I pointed out on this board before, When SF proposed, in 13 councils, that these councils press the Dublin Govn to be more proactive in developing All Ireland strategies, only two got full SDLP support, the rest either got a split SDLP vote, SDLP members abstaining, SDLP refusing to attend etc. Even their party whips could not encourage their membership to give their full support to it. How can this party be trusted to stand up for Irish Unity when even the idea of increased All Ireland strategies/co-operation is too much for them to handle?

I honestly don't understand how any party can claim to represent nationalism when it
- Felt that equality had been achieved in the 1980's claiming this equality was "now a reality"
- Takes an oath of allegience to a British monarchy all to have the right to sit in Westminster, despite rarely attending anyway
- Stated that they have "have no difficulty with a continuing MI5 role" in the north of Ireland
- Voted in favour of 28 day detention
- In 2006, argued in favour of diplock courts stating it was "essential that adequate provision for non-jury trials for appropriate offences in Northern Ireland is maintained"
- Supported Irish citizens in the north being legally compelled to be included in a "British National Identity Register".
- Regarded Ronnie Flanagan as a man who "wanted to edge policing forward"
- Opposed Derry Council proceeding with its stated policy of petitioning the Privy Council to restore the name of Derry to the city
- Through their intransigience, are currently assisting the Orange Order in having their joint unionist candidate capture the Fermanagh/South Tyrone seat just to avoid a SF member taking the seat.
- Sends a member of it's Assembly team on a British Ministry of Defence trip to Afghanistan
- Voted in in the Assembly for increased pensions for the RUC Part-Time Reservists
- Voted in Belfast City Council for the placing of dozens of British Army plaques, including two UDR plaques around the walls inside City Hall.
- For years claimed allegations of collusion between the British state and Loyalist gangs was "republican propeganda"

Unfortunately, I could go on. It almost appears that this party regards Nationalism as a sectarian mindset and tries to avoid anything which makes them open about being Nationalist. Their public appearances make them sound more and more like the Alliance Party as time goes on.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: lurganblue on April 25, 2010, 09:13:55 AM
Not once has a stoop came to my door canvassing for a vote. Not even a chance for
anyone in our area to challenge their policies face to face.

We have a lot of local problems with anti-social behaviour, drugs, etc and they seem to avoid tackling these issues apart from condeming acts in the local paper.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: longrunsthefox on April 25, 2010, 10:19:53 AM
Agreed... they are absolutely toothless. Allister McDonnell slabbering on about the Hunger Strike ceremony held in Galbally was also nausiating.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 25, 2010, 11:58:25 AM
IF this thread is a reflection of the general opinion of the SDLP then they are in serious trouble.

The SDLP became nothing after Hume packed it in. Even Mallon was second rate who never achieved anything in his political career. Since it became clear that the Peace process would mean SF sctive in political institutions the SDLP became the atni SF party. Ever since peace became a real possibility after the Adams and Hume talks the SDLP went into defence mode trying to protect their electoral success against SF. This inculded and includes pacts with Unionists and British Governments in an attempt to isolate SF. They have some neck complaining about SF not taking seats in westminster when over the years the stood hand in hand with unionists and british Governments while SF were locked outside the gates.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: orangeman on April 25, 2010, 12:03:41 PM
IF this thread is a reflection of the general opinion of the SDLP then they are in serious trouble.

The SDLP became nothing after Hume packed it in. Even Mallon was second rate who never achieved anything in his political career. Since it became clear that the Peace process would mean SF sctive in political institutions the SDLP became the atni SF party. Ever since peace became a real possibility after the Adams and Hume talks the SDLP went into defence mode trying to protect their electoral success against SF. This inculded and includes pacts with Unionists and British Governments in an attempt to isolate SF. They have some neck complaining about SF not taking seats in westminster when over the years the stood hand in hand with unionists and british Governments while SF were locked outside the gates.


History repeating itself then with SF doing the same thing now. What's new ?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: longrunsthefox on April 25, 2010, 12:20:37 PM
Martin Morgan former SDLP councillor in Belfast was young and had a bit of vibrancy about him. I once asked him if he got much hassle from Republicans in North Belfast and he said he got more from members of his own party when he spoke out against the behaviour of the police and the state. They accused him of sounding like a Sinn Feiner. Says it all... now he is nowhere to be seen.   
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 25, 2010, 12:46:06 PM
IF this thread is a reflection of the general opinion of the SDLP then they are in serious trouble.

The SDLP became nothing after Hume packed it in. Even Mallon was second rate who never achieved anything in his political career. Since it became clear that the Peace process would mean SF sctive in political institutions the SDLP became the atni SF party. Ever since peace became a real possibility after the Adams and Hume talks the SDLP went into defence mode trying to protect their electoral success against SF. This inculded and includes pacts with Unionists and British Governments in an attempt to isolate SF. They have some neck complaining about SF not taking seats in westminster when over the years the stood hand in hand with unionists and british Governments while SF were locked outside the gates.


History repeating itself then with SF doing the same thing now. What's new ?

I don't get ye?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: orangeman on April 25, 2010, 01:04:26 PM
IF this thread is a reflection of the general opinion of the SDLP then they are in serious trouble.

The SDLP became nothing after Hume packed it in. Even Mallon was second rate who never achieved anything in his political career. Since it became clear that the Peace process would mean SF sctive in political institutions the SDLP became the atni SF party. Ever since peace became a real possibility after the Adams and Hume talks the SDLP went into defence mode trying to protect their electoral success against SF. This inculded and includes pacts with Unionists and British Governments in an attempt to isolate SF. They have some neck complaining about SF not taking seats in westminster when over the years the stood hand in hand with unionists and british Governments while SF were locked outside the gates.


History repeating itself then with SF doing the same thing now. What's new ?

I don't get ye?


SDLP accuse SF today of doing what you say the SDLP did to SF in the previous generation.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: dodgy umpire on April 26, 2010, 01:20:07 AM
Martin Morgan former SDLP councillor in Belfast was young and had a bit of vibrancy about him. I once asked him if he got much hassle from Republicans in North Belfast and he said he got more from members of his own party when he spoke out against the behaviour of the police and the state. They accused him of sounding like a Sinn Feiner. Says it all... now he is nowhere to be seen.   

I think he stood a few years ago, and came across as a very good candidate. Talked publicly about many in the SDLP wanting to drop the re-unification idea
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Pangurban on April 26, 2010, 02:21:32 AM
If there is a more strident, illogical,ill prepared leader of a party, than Margaret Ritchie, then i have yet to come across them. The only place she will lead the S.D.L.P. is to complete oblivion.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on April 26, 2010, 11:10:15 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mMKQd8nsSA&feature=related
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: unitedireland on April 26, 2010, 11:40:45 AM
Its Richie's fault if Unionist's take fermanagh and south Tyrone as the SDLP are not going to claim a seat they are only there to make up numbers and possibility take the deciding votes. McKinney was on TV last sunday and make look a fool by Gerry Kelly in a debate. Another celebrity politician - crap
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 26, 2010, 11:45:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mMKQd8nsSA&feature=related

1957 views


The real SDLP PEB - 1704 views  :D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 26, 2010, 11:48:01 AM
Its Richie's fault if Unionist's take fermanagh and south Tyrone as the SDLP are not going to claim a seat they are only there to make up numbers and possibility take the deciding votes. McKinney was on TV last sunday and make look a fool by Gerry Kelly in a debate. Another celebrity politician - crap

She admitted as much on the radio yesterday morning that it was about building for the Assembly elections next year i.e. she will hand the Westminster seat to the unionists so she can increase Fearghals chances of getting an Assembly seat.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 04:22:56 PM
Is that not a legitimate enough move by a party leader then? To maximise their vote in a constituency? A SF or any Nationalist victory in FST Westminster elections won't bring a UI any closer, if the constitutional issue is your big concern.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 26, 2010, 04:43:31 PM
Is that not a legitimate enough move by a party leader then? To maximise their vote in a constituency? A SF or any Nationalist victory in FST Westminster elections won't bring a UI any closer, if the constitutional issue is your big concern.

I'd imagine if the SDLP were looking to build their strength for the Assembly elections they would have been better served to take part in the electoral pact. In refusing they have done their credibility no good amongst nationalists. Again.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 04:50:38 PM
Is that not a legitimate enough move by a party leader then? To maximise their vote in a constituency? A SF or any Nationalist victory in FST Westminster elections won't bring a UI any closer, if the constitutional issue is your big concern.

I'd imagine if the SDLP were looking to build their strength for the Assembly elections they would have been better served to take part in the electoral pact. In refusing they have done their credibility no good amongst nationalists. Again.
Obviously Margaret Ritchie thought otherwise. The impact on their credibility will be seen in a few weeks and in the subsequent Assembly elections and they will have to live with that. Their credibility in the eyes of SF and staunch SF supporters such as yourself will probably be of little concern.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 26, 2010, 05:00:14 PM
Maguire01...from what I can tell their credibility has taken a big blow in F&ST.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 05:06:23 PM
Maguire01...from what I can tell their credibility has taken a big blow in F&ST.
Quite possibly - we'll soon find out. Although I'd imagine that the most vocal would be SF supporters, as is the case on here. At the end of the day, it's in the hands of the electorate in FST - they can still choose to return Gildernew, the SDLP hasn't removed that option.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 26, 2010, 05:23:45 PM
Is that not a legitimate enough move by a party leader then? To maximise their vote in a constituency? A SF or any Nationalist victory in FST Westminster elections won't bring a UI any closer, if the constitutional issue is your big concern.

I'd imagine if the SDLP were looking to build their strength for the Assembly elections they would have been better served to take part in the electoral pact. In refusing they have done their credibility no good amongst nationalists. Again.
Obviously Margaret Ritchie thought otherwise. The impact on their credibility will be seen in a few weeks and in the subsequent Assembly elections and they will have to live with that. Their credibility in the eyes of SF and staunch SF supporters such as yourself will probably be of little concern.

Well either Margaret Ritchie thought different, (in which case she could be regarded as even worse a party leader than the posters on this thread have already alleged) or else, which I suggest is the more likely scenario, she is of the "anyone but SF" mindset that seems to permeate everything the SDLP says and does in the past number of years. I would agree with you when you say you expect the SDLP would not be all that concerned with how they are seen by SF supporters. Unfortunately they should be concerned with how the general nationalist population sees them. Again, this move by them indicated that they aren't actually too bothered with that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 26, 2010, 05:25:41 PM
She admitted as much on the radio yesterday morning that it was about building for the Assembly elections next year i.e. she will hand the Westminster seat to the unionists so she can increase Fearghals chances of getting an Assembly seat.

Is that a U turn on the claims that she wouldn't be part of a sectarian pact? Does she finally accept that nobody bought into that?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 26, 2010, 05:45:11 PM
Maguire01...from what I can tell their credibility has taken a big blow in F&ST.
Quite possibly - we'll soon find out. Although I'd imagine that the most vocal would be SF supporters, as is the case on here. At the end of the day, it's in the hands of the electorate in FST - they can still choose to return Gildernew, the SDLP hasn't removed that option.

Quite a few traditional SDLP supporters I've met too.  They're furious at Ritchie & McKinney.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 05:56:03 PM
She admitted as much on the radio yesterday morning that it was about building for the Assembly elections next year i.e. she will hand the Westminster seat to the unionists so she can increase Fearghals chances of getting an Assembly seat.

Is that a U turn on the claims that she wouldn't be part of a sectarian pact? Does she finally accept that nobody bought into that?
Does it have to be one or the other?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 06:03:03 PM
Quite a few traditional SDLP supporters I've met too.  They're furious at Ritchie & McKinney.
Maybe. I'd assume they'll now vote for Gildernew? If enough people care enough and want Gildernew, she will still be elected, regardless of the lack of a pact. If she isn't elected, then we can assume she doesn't appeal to enough nationalist voters(?)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 26, 2010, 09:31:58 PM
She admitted as much on the radio yesterday morning that it was about building for the Assembly elections next year i.e. she will hand the Westminster seat to the unionists so she can increase Fearghals chances of getting an Assembly seat.

Is that a U turn on the claims that she wouldn't be part of a sectarian pact? Does she finally accept that nobody bought into that?
Does it have to be one or the other?

The question is, is it both or is it just one? If it's just one which one is it? If it's both it waters down her original position.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 26, 2010, 09:39:05 PM
I'm not sure why.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 26, 2010, 09:45:02 PM
I'm not sure why.

Well what ever has you not sure is probably my point.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Orior on April 26, 2010, 10:04:48 PM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 26, 2010, 10:27:49 PM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.

What constituency?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Orior on April 26, 2010, 10:29:02 PM
North Beal Feirste
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 26, 2010, 11:10:37 PM
Have yet to have any of them near my door. The Stoops must have us down as "hostile", though I can't imagine why.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaffer on April 26, 2010, 11:15:53 PM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.

Agree, but the men in grey suits told him he wasn' t standing !!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 27, 2010, 01:01:05 AM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.

Agree, but the men in grey suits told him he wasn' t standing !!

He wasn't standig in north Belfast.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Pangurban on April 27, 2010, 01:42:47 AM
We have been hearing a lot of talk about integrity from S.D.L.P. candidates, which is difficult to square with the fact, that in order to enter Westminister, they are prepared to swear a solemn oath of loyalty , which by their own admission they dont believe in. Not much integrity there. Perhaps some moral theologian might care to comment on this stance
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 27, 2010, 01:47:27 AM
We have been hearing a lot of talk about integrity from S.D.L.P. candidates, which is difficult to square with the fact, that in order to enter Westminister, they are prepared to swear a solemn oath of loyalty , which by their own admission they dont believe in. Not much integrity there. Perhaps some moral theologian might care to comment on this stance

Michael Collins did it?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Pangurban on April 27, 2010, 02:01:58 AM
Does that make it right, or moral
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnneycool on April 27, 2010, 09:22:05 AM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.

Agree, but the men in grey suits told him he wasn' t standing !!

He wasn't standig in north Belfast.

Isn't Alex south Belfast or is that just for the assembly?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: glens abu on April 27, 2010, 09:36:41 AM
I just had Alex Maskey at my doorstep canvasing. Its a pity Alex is not running himself as he is a very intelligent and articulate man.

Agree, but the men in grey suits told him he wasn' t standing !!

He wasn't standig in north Belfast.

Isn't Alex south Belfast or is that just for the assembly?

South BelfastMLA but over working for Gerry Kelly in the North of the city
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 27, 2010, 10:12:00 AM
Does that make it right, or moral

Nah, it was wrong then too.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Main Street on April 27, 2010, 12:25:53 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: glens abu on April 27, 2010, 12:39:31 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

How do you work that out?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaffer on April 27, 2010, 12:49:02 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

Agree totally. You dont see them bashing their good mates......... the unionists.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Main Street on April 27, 2010, 12:49:41 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

How do you work that out?

I read the thread.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: glens abu on April 27, 2010, 01:14:22 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

How do you work that out?

I read the thread.

so do you really think all the people on here complaining about the SDLP are Sinn Fein members
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 27, 2010, 01:57:18 PM
so do you really think all the people on here complaining about the SDLP are Sinn Fein members
I think it's clear that a number of the main contributers are either SF members or staunch supporters. Some people clearly have an agenda.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: glens abu on April 27, 2010, 02:02:01 PM
so do you really think all the people on here complaining about the SDLP are Sinn Fein members
I think it's clear that a number of the main contributers are either SF members or staunch supporters. Some people clearly have an agenda.

Well as I told you before I am but would say more supporters than members,but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 27, 2010, 02:32:48 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

Agree totally. You dont see them bashing their good mates......... the unionists.

I think the SDLP have proven by their attitude to Fermanagh/South Tyrone that they indeed are the true friends of unionism. I think the examples I outlined on page one of this thread would substantiate that argument further.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 27, 2010, 06:09:24 PM
I have no problem being good mates with Unionists.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 27, 2010, 06:20:33 PM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 27, 2010, 08:32:08 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

Agree totally. You dont see them bashing their good mates......... the unionists.

There is an election on. SF and the SDLP are fighting for the same floating vote.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Tony Baloney on April 27, 2010, 08:46:54 PM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
Whoever wins F/ST will have been democratically elected by the constituents. Get over it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rosie McCann on April 27, 2010, 09:09:40 PM
I was dissapointed to hear the sitting MP for South Belfast say that the withdrawal of Alex Maskey was a stunt. It was also dissapointing to hear Ms Ritchie say that the withdrawal would not affect the SDLP vote in the area. Without going into specifics some of the electorate who would ordinarily have voted Sinn Fein/Unionist at the last election voted for the MP currently in situ, simply to help the area move away from tribal politics. I may be wrong but I firmly believe the arrogance demonstrated recently by Ms Ritchie and Alisdair McDonnell could well come back to bite. My late grandfather always told me never to pull the ladder up behind you as you never know when you have to go back down again, wise words indeed. Hopefully for them they haven't cut off their nose to spite their face by dismissing in particular Sinn Fein voters out of hand. (It is ironic that for years the SDLP pleaded for nationalist votes in the South Belfast area in order to secure a nationalist seat and now they treat the same voters with disdain?)

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on April 27, 2010, 09:19:24 PM
Alasdair McDonnell went and got himself booked in an All Ireland semi final. Liability. Typical Glenariff.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Zapatista on April 27, 2010, 09:23:03 PM
I was dissapointed to hear the sitting MP for South Belfast say that the withdrawal of Alex Maskey was a stunt. It was also dissapointing to hear Ms Ritchie say that the withdrawal would not affect the SDLP vote in the area. Without going into specifics some of the electorate who would ordinarily have voted Sinn Fein/Unionist at the last election voted for the MP currently in situ, simply to help the area move away from tribal politics. I may be wrong but I firmly believe the arrogance demonstrated recently by Ms Ritchie and Alisdair McDonnell could well come back to bite. My late grandfather always told me never to pull the ladder up behind you as you never know when you have to go back down again, wise words indeed. Hopefully for them they haven't cut off their nose to spite their face by dismissing in particular Sinn Fein voters out of hand. (It is ironic that for years the SDLP pleaded for nationalist votes in the South Belfast area in order to secure a nationalist seat and now they treat the same voters with disdain?)

That's shocking bad electioneering :o
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaffer on April 27, 2010, 09:58:51 PM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.


IDEA ! Gildernew steps aside. Sinn Fein call for Nationalists to support McKinney to ensure a nationalist is returned.
If however, Sinn FEin are still prepared to split the nationalist vote and let a unionist become elected then they are as nuch to blame as the SDLP.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trileacman on April 27, 2010, 10:33:46 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

Agree totally. You dont see them bashing their good mates......... the unionists.

I think the SDLP have proven by their attitude to Fermanagh/South Tyrone that they indeed are the true friends of unionism. I think the examples I outlined on page one of this thread would substantiate that argument further.

Well if you'd rather turf grenades . . .
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on April 27, 2010, 11:18:48 PM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.


IDEA ! Gildernew steps aside. Sinn Fein call for Nationalists to support McKinney to ensure a nationalist is returned.
If however, Sinn FEin are still prepared to split the nationalist vote and let a unionist become elected then they are as nuch to blame as the SDLP.

OK so your "IDEA!" for a nationalist pact is for SF to pull out of two constituencies to facilitate an SDLP victory in both? Sound reasoning. Have you not read the newspapers? Sinn Fein already pulled out of a consitituency to facilitate an SDLP candidate. The SDLP would not reciprocate in another consitituency.

The SDLP and Orange Order will be totally responsible if/when a tory unionist is elected to Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on April 27, 2010, 11:28:07 PM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.


IDEA ! Gildernew steps aside. Sinn Fein call for Nationalists to support McKinney to ensure a nationalist is returned.
If however, Sinn FEin are still prepared to split the nationalist vote and let a unionist become elected then they are as nuch to blame as the SDLP.

OK so your "IDEA!" for a nationalist pact is for SF to pull out of two constituencies to facilitate an SDLP victory in both? Sound reasoning. Have you not read the newspapers? Sinn Fein already pulled out of a consitituency to facilitate an SDLP candidate. The SDLP would not reciprocate in another consitituency.

The SDLP and Orange Order will be totally responsible if/when a tory unionist is elected to Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
That's balls to be honest. Sinn Fein are looking to play games because they don't have the nads to fight for their own seats. The stoops are not interested.

Since when did Sinn Fein dictate what the stoops do or vice versa? If a tory unionist gets elected in FST, it is because he/she gets more votes than the other candidates.

No fan of the stoops by any means but Sinn Fein have nobody to blame for this but themselves.

Why didn't they leave Maskey in and pull Gerry out of west Belfast, letting Attwood take the seat?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ulick on April 27, 2010, 11:28:30 PM
Why is this tread the focus of debate about the upcoming elections? It looks like Sinn Fein are more into SDLP bashing than focusing on their own policies.

Policies? It's a Brit election, policy is irrelevant. Given that the amount of influence anyone this side of the water will have amounts to the square root of f**k all, the only policy that matters is position on the National Question. The Stoops appear to want to doff their caps to the old colonial masters and Durkan and McDonnell have been seduced by the pomp, circumstance and cash of the Brit establishment - Irish nationalists my hole. West Brits or Uncle Toms would be a more fitting description.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: lawnseed on April 27, 2010, 11:50:05 PM
had the shinners at the door last week, the main aim is to become the biggest party here, gildernew needs 9 out of 10 nationlist votes in fst to win the seat, lets be honest winning westminister seats for sinn fein is just muscle flexing so its not the end of the world if they dont. unfortunately for the sdlp they have to try for jobs or they're gonna disappear altogether, they'll hold onto a couple of mps this time but they're in terminal decline like their wishy washy mates the unionist party ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Pangurban on April 28, 2010, 12:06:30 AM
Lets not forget another aspect of this equation,Margaret Ritchie will need Unionist votes to retain South Down for the SDLP, probably her primary reason for rejecting a pact, pure self interest
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 28, 2010, 09:06:32 AM
Good lad. Me either. It doesnt mean I agree with the SDLP accommodating them at the cost of nationalist majority consitituents in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.


IDEA ! Gildernew steps aside. Sinn Fein call for Nationalists to support McKinney to ensure a nationalist is returned.
If however, Sinn FEin are still prepared to split the nationalist vote and let a unionist become elected then they are as nuch to blame as the SDLP.

IDEA!!  Watch the Politics Show "debate" with McKinney & Kelly.  McKinney wouldn't get elected if he was the only one standing...Question for McKinney supporters...how long has he been a member of the SDLP??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnneycool on April 28, 2010, 10:41:49 AM
It'd probably make more sense to let the sitting MP stand if its an election pact you 'd be entering in to.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 28, 2010, 01:05:58 PM
IDEA!!  Watch the Politics Show "debate" with McKinney & Kelly.  McKinney wouldn't get elected if he was the only one standing...Question for McKinney supporters...how long has he been a member of the SDLP??
Firstly, I think some people are placing too much importance on that episode of The Politics Show. McKinney was bad, but it's hardly a primetime show. It's impact will be limited.

Also I'm not sure of the relevance of McKinney's time in the SDLP. How long was Ruane a member of SF before she stood for them as a candidate?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 28, 2010, 01:35:59 PM
IDEA!!  Watch the Politics Show "debate" with McKinney & Kelly.  McKinney wouldn't get elected if he was the only one standing...Question for McKinney supporters...how long has he been a member of the SDLP??
Firstly, I think some people are placing too much importance on that episode of The Politics Show. McKinney was bad, but it's hardly a primetime show. It's impact will be limited.

Also I'm not sure of the relevance of McKinney's time in the SDLP. How long was Ruane a member of SF before she stood for them as a candidate?

Haven't a clue, I would never vote for Ruane as she's been promoted way above her level of competence (plus she's not standing in my constituency).  However I do know that she was involved in community "activism" in West Belfast for a good while before she became an elected representative but that's probably not relevant. 

Fearghal McKinney is looking for my vote judging by the leaflet stuck on my car at Mass on Sunday and the same leaflet through the letter box.  So his background and experience are relevant.  The SDLP will loook back on his candidacy next Friday and think "Well it seemed like a good idea at the time"  I would guess the thinking was "We'll get a high profile celeb candidate to eat into Gildernew's vote and maybe set us up for a decent tilt at Gerry McHugh's Assembly seat".  Maybe not a bad strategy.  They were scuppered by two things 1) The single Unionist/Tory candidate (over which the SDLP had no control) and 2) A poor candidate who clearly doesn't have a grasp of the issues (over which they do have control).
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 28, 2010, 01:49:57 PM
IDEA!!  Watch the Politics Show "debate" with McKinney & Kelly.  McKinney wouldn't get elected if he was the only one standing...Question for McKinney supporters...how long has he been a member of the SDLP??
Firstly, I think some people are placing too much importance on that episode of The Politics Show. McKinney was bad, but it's hardly a primetime show. It's impact will be limited.

Also I'm not sure of the relevance of McKinney's time in the SDLP. How long was Ruane a member of SF before she stood for them as a candidate?

McKinney's performance wasn't of Cecil Walker proportions, but it was pretty bad by anyone's standards. It was certainly poor enough to make me seriously reconsider about lumping heavily on Connor.

the daddy..don't lump on anyone here...I still think Connor will win but it's going to be too close to consider a big bet IMHO
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 28, 2010, 01:52:20 PM
IDEA!!  Watch the Politics Show "debate" with McKinney & Kelly.  McKinney wouldn't get elected if he was the only one standing...Question for McKinney supporters...how long has he been a member of the SDLP??
Firstly, I think some people are placing too much importance on that episode of The Politics Show. McKinney was bad, but it's hardly a primetime show. It's impact will be limited.

Also I'm not sure of the relevance of McKinney's time in the SDLP. How long was Ruane a member of SF before she stood for them as a candidate?

How do you make that?

He goes on the show to debate with Gerry Kelly about why Nationalists should vote SDLP instead of Sinn Fein. He makes a complete hash of it. Spurting out tired cliches and losing every single debate against him.

To me that is important. It highlights that rather than selecting a candidate of substance, the SDLP parashooted in a local celebrity to win votes. Quite frankly, that's insulting to the local electorate.

A further note, you may say Fergal McKinney is new to politics. Mike Nesbitt is new to politics too, but he handled himself a lot better against Jeffrey Donaldson.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: cusack og on April 28, 2010, 06:31:22 PM
Lets not forget another aspect of this equation,Margaret Ritchie will need Unionist votes to retain South Down for the SDLP, probably her primary reason for rejecting a pact, pure self interest

Nail on the head. It is within the SDLP's interest to appeal to the centre ground to help maintain their vote in areas like South Down and Foyle. Making any pact with SF may scupper this.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on April 28, 2010, 07:13:09 PM
How do you make that?

He goes on the show to debate with Gerry Kelly about why Nationalists should vote SDLP instead of Sinn Fein. He makes a complete hash of it. Spurting out tired cliches and losing every single debate against him.

To me that is important. It highlights that rather than selecting a candidate of substance, the SDLP parashooted in a local celebrity to win votes. Quite frankly, that's insulting to the local electorate.
Ziggy, not saying that his appearance wasn't a diaster, just wondering what propotion of the electorate actually watched that show - it's not exactly primetime. If few people saw it, it's impact may not be very significant.

As for 'substance', there's more to that than performing in a TV interview; there are plenty of politicians who can talk the talk but do little else. Difficult to judge whether he has any substance at this stage. And as for being dropped into Fermanagh, he does at least have a proper connection to the area - there are many instances of parachuting in candidates across all parties.

And I agree, Nesbitt performed well against Donaldson, but that doesn't necessarily mean McKinney can't improve with time.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardmhachaabu on April 28, 2010, 08:00:31 PM
Lets not forget another aspect of this equation,Margaret Ritchie will need Unionist votes to retain South Down for the SDLP, probably her primary reason for rejecting a pact, pure self interest

Nail on the head. It is within the SDLP's interest to appeal to the centre ground to help maintain their vote in areas like South Down and Foyle. Making any pact with SF may scupper this.
Spot on.  Why would they even countenance the shinners' approach for a pact?  It makes no long-term sense, if they accepted a pact there would be no need for them. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: DickyRock on April 29, 2010, 08:52:57 AM
Does anyone know why the shinners pulled out of South Belfast rather than FST?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 29, 2010, 09:03:48 AM
Does anyone know why the shinners pulled out of South Belfast rather than FST?

Presumably since the SDLP are the incumbent in Sth Belfast and SF are the incumbent in FST, the Shinners are giving up 3,000 votes in Sth Belfast whereas they'd be giving up 19,000 in FST?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on April 29, 2010, 09:36:39 AM
I was told it was a policy of SDLP not to enter into pacts so if this is the case, why the anger at them this time, what's changed from any other time?  Is there historical precedence of them doing it (in the last 20 years anyway)?

On another point, jeez I can't listen to Catriona Ruane - she was on Radio Ulster this morning and for once I thought Margaret Ritchie spoke more sense.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on April 29, 2010, 09:40:00 AM
On another point, jeez I can't listen to Catriona Ruane - she was on Radio Ulster this morning and for once I thought Margaret Ritchie spoke more sense.

The two of them are hard to listen to  :D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 29, 2010, 10:14:34 AM
I was told it was a policy of SDLP not to enter into pacts so if this is the case, why the anger at them this time, what's changed from any other time?  Is there historical precedence of them doing it (in the last 20 years anyway)?

On another point, jeez I can't listen to Catriona Ruane - she was on Radio Ulster this morning and for once I thought Margaret Ritchie spoke more sense.

What is that called...Hobson's Choice??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hurler on the Bitch on November 07, 2010, 07:54:08 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 09:26:37 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.

You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaffer on November 07, 2010, 10:04:16 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.
You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.

Solicitors and Lawyers are the same thing ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 07, 2010, 10:07:57 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.
You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.

Solicitors and Lawyers are the same thing ::)

Not strictly true. All solicitors are lawyers but not all lawyers are solicitors.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 10:09:57 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:16:25 PM
Not to mention Barristers, Gallsman



Good to see you have resigned yourself to acceptance of SF dominance all the same  ;)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:21:28 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.
You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.

Solicitors and Lawyers are the same thing ::)

1.  ::)
2. Is that all you have to say about my post? Does that mean you agree with everything else?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gaffer on November 07, 2010, 10:24:21 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.
You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.

Solicitors and Lawyers are the same thing ::)

1.  ::)
2. Is that all you have to say about my post? Does that mean you agree with everything else?

Yip, that's all I have to say...Why?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:26:56 PM
Did anyone see this pack of clowns on over the weekend? That Richie one is an absolute nightmare. She has no charisma, no humour, no intellect and ... I could go on. Shower of arrogant Castle Snobs..

Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party.
You're right about that bundle of joy that is Margaret Richie; and it's because of her lack of charisma, humour, intellect, charm, tactical awareness, personality etc that I hope & pray she remains as the stoops leader, and with any luck will do untold damage to their electoral prospects.

Rant over.

Solicitors and Lawyers are the same thing ::)

1.  ::)
2. Is that all you have to say about my post? Does that mean you agree with everything else?

Yip, that's all I have to say...Why?

No reason. Thanks for the conversation!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 07, 2010, 10:34:23 PM
I don't understand this snobbery for such professions, especially (as has already been pointed out) as there are plenty of SF voters at University aiming to join those ranks. They may tick the SF box, but they don't want no 'average industrial wage'.

Also even (or especially) in the darkest days, getting a good education was always highly valued in the Catholic community. That having a profession is a source of ridicule baffles me.

Although I'm sure you'd never call on the services of a Doctor, Solicitor or Lawyer yourself NS.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:37:51 PM
Jaysus lads ye are all awful men for getting your knickers in a twist.

What if I just stick to the original... Stoop Down Low Party? Happy everyone?

Good.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 07, 2010, 10:39:51 PM
Jaysus lads ye are all awful men for getting your knickers in a twist.

What if I just stick to the original... Stoop Down Low Party? Happy everyone?

Good.
I'd rather you explained why being a professional was such a source of ridicule.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:47:26 PM
Jaysus lads ye are all awful men for getting your knickers in a twist.

What if I just stick to the original... Stoop Down Low Party? Happy everyone?

Good.
I'd rather you explained why being a professional was such a source of ridicule.

Professions a source of ridicule? I don't remember ridiculing any professions.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 10:49:58 PM
Sinn Fein dominance?! Oh right, you mean in the occupied six counties. By being so narrow minded and limiting your scope you're not really buying into the whole "we're an all-Ireland party" ideal, are you? So, in reality, you can't really consider yourself a Republican. How disappointing for you.

You remark on snobbery (which is just prejudice) and then crudely attempt to insult certain professions. Is that not snobbery?

So you've just found out you're a snob and you're not even a Republican? I'd call that a bad evening all round.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 07, 2010, 10:51:18 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 10:57:22 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 11:01:46 PM
I've seen Sinn Fein out and about the Malone Road on many occasions. Is this not marketing to the middle class?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 07, 2010, 11:05:15 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
I thought it was generally a reference to the background of the party's elected representatives. I also thought the 'S' stood for Schoolteachers.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 07, 2010, 11:10:43 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
I thought it was generally a reference to the background of the party's elected representatives. I also thought the 'S' stood for Schoolteachers.
Glad to have clarified my point. Apologies for any mass confusion.

Sin sin, mar a deirtear.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 07, 2010, 11:12:45 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.


Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
Jesus christ what a generalisation. How or why would you jump to that conclusion?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 11:22:05 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.


Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
Jesus christ what a generalisation. How or why would you jump to that conclusion?

Because I'm of that generation and have many friends who would be part of those lectures, perhaps?

Perhaps I should have said would be more sympathetic to Sinn Fein than the SDLP considering how many people of my generation (yes Pints, I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours) don't bother to vote.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 07, 2010, 11:33:10 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.


Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
Jesus christ what a generalisation. How or why would you jump to that conclusion?

Because I'm of that generation and have many friends who would be part of those lectures, perhaps?

Perhaps I should have said would be more sympathetic to Sinn Fein than the SDLP considering how many people of my generation (yes Pints, I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours) don't bother to vote.
Right so we've gone from the majority of those wearing GAA tops in lectures would be Sinn Fein voters to many of your generation would be more sympathetic to Sinn Fein (and you don't need any major political insight in to know Sinn Fein would be more popular amongst young people).
I think you see how stupid your comment was.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 11:40:17 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 07, 2010, 11:41:31 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 11:47:40 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 07, 2010, 11:51:53 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 07, 2010, 11:53:14 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.

Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 07, 2010, 11:57:52 PM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.

Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.
aye alright - you know all about the voting habits of gaa top wearing students in universities you never even attended.  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 12:14:21 AM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.

Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.
aye alright - you know all about the voting habits of gaa top wearing students in universities you never even attended.  ::)

A lot more than you do, yes.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 12:32:44 AM
Pints, what Gallsman is trying to say is that you are too old to understand and are simply below him.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 12:52:02 AM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.

Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Needless to say, Gallsman is the mule (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh33bGAxl58)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 08:21:46 AM
Em, no, not really. What I was doing was pointing out that after NS had his little dig (in his head) at "middle class" professions I pointed out that an awful lot of Sinn Fein supporters aspire to enter such professions.
What you did was make a strange generalisation about people wearing GAA tops to university lectures.

Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.
How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.

Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.
aye alright - you know all about the voting habits of gaa top wearing students in universities you never even attended.  ::)

A lot more than you do, yes.

Aye, you know everything  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Banana Man on November 08, 2010, 10:29:51 AM
Quote
Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.


Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Tell you what Gallsman you certainly bought into the Trinity education when you went down there. Your attitude seems to be, we debate your point of view and the other one then decide you are right. You put me in mind of alasdair mcdonnell  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: dodgy umpire on November 08, 2010, 12:22:14 PM
I too am of the same generation as gallsman and his comments would be fairly accurate. There actually was a survey carried out which found that 25% of the students would support sinn fein, and the three other main parties fared around 10%-14% or so. A large proportion of students didn't care
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 01:16:14 PM
Quote
Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.


Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Tell you what Gallsman you certainly bought into the Trinity education when you went down there. Your attitude seems to be, we debate your point of view and the other one then decide you are right. You put me in mind of alasdair mcdonnell  ::)

Well that's just shite of the highest order, isn't it? I've stated what my belief is based on and in return all that has been presented is a load of crap with no evidence to justify any other opinion. I've already stated that I have no firm evidence and my belief purely comes from generational insight and frienships amongst the various classes mentioned earlier.

The higlighted bit makes no sense. Maybe it's because you didn't go to Trinity or something that you can't communicate effectively. You know, seeing as I go on about it so much and try to remind everyone of my superiority.  ::) ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Banana Man on November 08, 2010, 01:38:38 PM
Quote
Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 10:29:51 AM
Quote
Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.


Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Tell you what Gallsman you certainly bought into the Trinity education when you went down there. Your attitude seems to be, we debate your point of view and the other one then decide you are right. You put me in mind of alasdair mcdonnell 


Well that's just shite of the highest order, isn't it? I've stated what my belief is based on and in return all that has been presented is a load of crap with no evidence to justify any other opinion. I've already stated that I have no firm evidence and my belief purely comes from generational insight and frienships amongst the various classes mentioned earlier.

The higlighted bit makes no sense. Maybe it's because you didn't go to Trinity or something that you can't communicate effectively. You know, seeing as I go on about it so much and try to remind everyone of my superiority.

Is that your attempt at debate? label everything as shite?

Maybe I gave you too much credit. Trinity would be seen as one of the last bastions of imperialism in Dublin, the last of the blueblood etc, they would foster and encourage the condescending attitude that you continuously represent here, with the sweeping generalisations of the 'bog Irish'.

If you had read what I posted you would see I was referring to you dismissing pints argument simply because you believed you were better qualified than him despite not knowing what experience he would have on the matter.

Certainly looks like you bought into the arrogant dogma of trinity very well. Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: screenexile on November 08, 2010, 01:46:31 PM
I think that's a very sweeping generalisation that Gallsman has made there. I would have worn the odd Gaelic jersey around Queen's but have never and would never vote Sinn Fein.

Having said that I have not voted for anyone in years as the SDLP nor any of the other parties have put forward somebody I want to vote for. Our political system is a joke and the sooner we can get real leaders who get things done rather than people who like to take cheap shots and settle old scores the better in my view!!

PS. Gregory Campbell is the worst excuse of a Public Representative I have ever come across. Cannot stand him at all!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 05:05:43 PM
Quote
Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 10:29:51 AM
Quote
Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.


Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Tell you what Gallsman you certainly bought into the Trinity education when you went down there. Your attitude seems to be, we debate your point of view and the other one then decide you are right. You put me in mind of alasdair mcdonnell 


Well that's just shite of the highest order, isn't it? I've stated what my belief is based on and in return all that has been presented is a load of crap with no evidence to justify any other opinion. I've already stated that I have no firm evidence and my belief purely comes from generational insight and frienships amongst the various classes mentioned earlier.

The higlighted bit makes no sense. Maybe it's because you didn't go to Trinity or something that you can't communicate effectively. You know, seeing as I go on about it so much and try to remind everyone of my superiority.

Is that your attempt at debate? label everything as shite?

Maybe I gave you too much credit. Trinity would be seen as one of the last bastions of imperialism in Dublin, the last of the blueblood etc, they would foster and encourage the condescending attitude that you continuously represent here, with the sweeping generalisations of the 'bog Irish'.

If you had read what I posted you would see I was referring to you dismissing pints argument simply because you believed you were better qualified than him despite not knowing what experience he would have on the matter.

Certainly looks like you bought into the arrogant dogma of trinity very well. Mission accomplished.

Can you not even see the hypocrisy here? What exactly do you know of Trinity? I'd happily wager the answer is something close to nothing based on this post. I also went to DCU - perhaps you'd care to elaborate on what I picked up from there?

I never once dismissed Pints - my point was that I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters due to certain factors. Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Banana Man on November 08, 2010, 05:16:26 PM
Quote
On Hiatus/Retired

    Re: The SDLP
« Reply #156 on: Today at 05:05:43 PM »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 01:38:38 PM
Quote
Quote from: Banana Man on Today at 10:29:51 AM
Quote
Strange to you perhaps? As I pointed out, I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment.How do you know you have more of an insight than me?
I'm also pretty sure you have never conducted a survey among gaa top wearing students in queens or jordanstown - you didn't even go to university there as I recall.


Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit. I'm pretty secure in my belief in the original statement.

Tell you what Gallsman you certainly bought into the Trinity education when you went down there. Your attitude seems to be, we debate your point of view and the other one then decide you are right. You put me in mind of alasdair mcdonnell 


Well that's just shite of the highest order, isn't it? I've stated what my belief is based on and in return all that has been presented is a load of crap with no evidence to justify any other opinion. I've already stated that I have no firm evidence and my belief purely comes from generational insight and frienships amongst the various classes mentioned earlier.

The higlighted bit makes no sense. Maybe it's because you didn't go to Trinity or something that you can't communicate effectively. You know, seeing as I go on about it so much and try to remind everyone of my superiority.

Is that your attempt at debate? label everything as shite?

Maybe I gave you too much credit. Trinity would be seen as one of the last bastions of imperialism in Dublin, the last of the blueblood etc, they would foster and encourage the condescending attitude that you continuously represent here, with the sweeping generalisations of the 'bog Irish'.

If you had read what I posted you would see I was referring to you dismissing pints argument simply because you believed you were better qualified than him despite not knowing what experience he would have on the matter.

Certainly looks like you bought into the arrogant dogma of trinity very well. Mission accomplished.


Can you not even see the hypocrisy here? What exactly do you know of Trinity? I'd happily wager the answer is something close to nothing based on this post. I also went to DCU - perhaps you'd care to elaborate on what I picked up from there?

I never once dismissed Pints - my point was that I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters due to certain factors. Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant.

That's the cusp of it there, in your version of debating, if someone disagrees with you it is irrelevant  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 05:44:25 PM
Yes, that's what I said.

I offered up evidence of why I believe I'm qualified to comment on such matters. What have you offered?

I'm still waiting to find out what you know of Trinity and DCU.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: The Worker on November 08, 2010, 05:51:40 PM
Some sweeping statements on this thread.

Just as well we aren't into generalisations on this board!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on November 08, 2010, 06:15:58 PM
Was Margaret trying to fly away like a wee birdie at the end of the SDLP report on UTV?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 08, 2010, 06:18:16 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
I thought it was generally a reference to the background of the party's elected representatives. I also thought the 'S' stood for Schoolteachers.
Glad to have clarified my point. Apologies for any mass confusion.

Sin sin, mar a deirtear.
You clarified your point? The reference to the professions generally relates to the background of SDLP members, not their 'target audience'.

And is this an example of the 'minimal interest' in the "working class" communities?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11706738
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: andoireabu on November 08, 2010, 06:31:34 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 06:33:43 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: andoireabu on November 08, 2010, 06:39:54 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 06:40:41 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?

Sheer weight of numbers, perhaps???
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: andoireabu on November 08, 2010, 06:45:53 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?

Sheer weight of numbers, perhaps???
Perhaps? And say for instance if a person wasn't wearing their own area or counties GAA top, say someone from west belfast wearing a crossmaglen shirt, would this not impact your point of people in a law or medicine lecture voting for the shinners based on their clothes?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 08, 2010, 06:48:54 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?
Maybe there aren't not that many city GAA tops around the universities?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 06:50:21 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?

Sheer weight of numbers, perhaps???
Perhaps? And say for instance if a person wasn't wearing their own area or counties GAA top, say someone from west belfast wearing a crossmaglen shirt, would this not impact your point of people in a law or medicine lecture voting for the shinners based on their clothes?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me here.

If someone from West Belfast was wearing a Crossmaglen jersey, would it impact my thoughts on their likely voting preferences?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: andoireabu on November 08, 2010, 06:56:25 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?

Sheer weight of numbers, perhaps???
Perhaps? And say for instance if a person wasn't wearing their own area or counties GAA top, say someone from west belfast wearing a crossmaglen shirt, would this not impact your point of people in a law or medicine lecture voting for the shinners based on their clothes?

I'm not quite sure what you're asking me here.

If someone from West Belfast was wearing a Crossmaglen jersey, would it impact my thoughts on their likely voting preferences?
Yes though without you knowing where they are from.  You see a person in a country GAA shirt in a medicine lecture and you think they vote for...?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 06:56:47 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
I thought it was generally a reference to the background of the party's elected representatives. I also thought the 'S' stood for Schoolteachers.
Glad to have clarified my point. Apologies for any mass confusion.

Sin sin, mar a deirtear.
You clarified your point? The reference to the professions generally relates to the background of SDLP members, not their 'target audience'.

And is this an example of the 'minimal interest' in the "working class" communities?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11706738

Jaysus Maguire01, you are now telling me what I meant by my own post? I'm sorry if I didn't mean it the way it would have suited you most to have a pop at me.

Tell you what, interpret it whatever way you feel suits you, and that way you can untwist them knickers of yours. It's bound to be getting uncomfortable.

As for your link, no.... a press statement from Miss Personality doesn't change the SDLP into the people's party just like that. Ol' maggie spent most of her conference speech making sure people knew they aren't Sinn Féin. She would have been better off trying to distance themselves from the Alliance party if you ask me.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 06:59:22 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?
Maybe there aren't not that many city GAA tops around the universities?
But there are still some, so why make the distinction in the first place? Why not just say "GAA jerseys"?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 08, 2010, 07:02:01 PM
So what was the purpose of the 'Solicitors Doctors & Lawyers Party' line?

A reference to the SDLP being a party which markets itself towards the "middle classes" and maintains minimal interest in the "working class" communities. The Alliance Party, in other words.
I thought it was generally a reference to the background of the party's elected representatives. I also thought the 'S' stood for Schoolteachers.
Glad to have clarified my point. Apologies for any mass confusion.

Sin sin, mar a deirtear.
You clarified your point? The reference to the professions generally relates to the background of SDLP members, not their 'target audience'.

And is this an example of the 'minimal interest' in the "working class" communities?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11706738

Jaysus Maguire01, you are now telling me what I meant by my own post? I'm sorry if I didn't mean it the way it would have suited you most to have a pop at me.

Tell you what, interpret it whatever way you feel suits you, and that way you can untwist them knickers of yours. It's bound to be getting uncomfortable.

As for your link, no.... a press statement from Miss Personality doesn't change the SDLP into the people's party just like that. Ol' maggie spent most of her conference speech making sure people knew they aren't Sinn Féin. She would have been better off trying to distance themselves from the Alliance party if you ask me.
I wasn't.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 08, 2010, 07:03:17 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?
Maybe there aren't not that many city GAA tops around the universities?
But there are still some, so why make the distinction in the first place? Why not just say "GAA jerseys"?
Maybe he didn't see any of the 'some'? I don't know, i'm just suggesting.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 07:05:47 PM
Jesus Nally, I know lots of solicitors and doctors who vote Sinn Fein, I doubt they'd be very happy with you.

Walk into a Queen's medicine lecture or a Queens or Jordanstown law lecture and count how many country GAA tops you see, the majority of who I presume would be Sinn Fein voters.

Perhaps you'd prefer things to return to the bad old days when Catholics couldn't get work and were forced to rely on benefits to survive.
You have a crack at nally for being a snob and then come out with the bit i have highlighted? Reads a bit snobbish to me.  Are you saying that nobody from a city club votes Sinn Féin?

Em, no.
So then why stick the country GAA supporters in your point?
Maybe there aren't not that many city GAA tops around the universities?
But there are still some, so why make the distinction in the first place? Why not just say "GAA jerseys"?
Maybe he didn't see any of the 'some'? I don't know, i'm just suggesting.
Maybe, but if I was in Belfast and seen twenty people in GAA jerseys from rural areas, I would say "people in GAA jerseys" not "people in country GAA jerseys". I just can't understand the actual reason of adding "country".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: fitzroyalty on November 08, 2010, 08:37:20 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:05:17 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: The Worker on November 08, 2010, 09:14:40 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.

I never knew a Gaa top was a political statement!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 09:16:24 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.

I never knew a Gaa top was a political statement!

Me either. The things you learn on this board eh  :o
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:19:13 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.

I never knew a Gaa top was a political statement!

Where did I say it was?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:20:19 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.

I never knew a Gaa top was a political statement!

Me either. The things you learn on this board eh  :o

You're yet to attempt to explain your pseudo-republican snobbery towards solicitors and doctors.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Minder on November 08, 2010, 09:21:09 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on November 08, 2010, 09:23:56 PM
Was Margaret trying to fly away like a wee birdie at the end of the SDLP report on UTV?

http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/133454/108848 (http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/133454/108848)

Go to 2:00.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:24:44 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn bastard.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 09:28:51 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn b**tard.
With quite an ego.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on November 08, 2010, 09:29:29 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn b**tard.
With quite an ego.

Oi!!!  >:(
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: The Worker on November 08, 2010, 09:30:16 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn b**tard.
With quite an ego.

Who thinks if you are from West Belfast and you wear a Cross top you either vote SF or dont vote at all!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:33:25 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn b**tard.
With quite an ego.

Who thinks if you are from West Belfast and you wear a Cross top you either vote SF or dont vote at all!

That's it, put words in my mouth. What I pointed out was an indicator, based on likelihood and probability, nothing more.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 09:33:47 PM
I know threads go a bit of topic here but this is pretty left field.

True, but I'm a stubborn b**tard.
With quite an ego.

About a tenth the size of yours.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 08, 2010, 09:45:49 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.

I never knew a Gaa top was a political statement!

Me either. The things you learn on this board eh  :o

You're yet to attempt to explain your pseudo-republican snobbery towards solicitors and doctors.

Snobbery towards doctors & solicitors? :D Right! You obviously missed my explanation.

I think the only snob here is your good self through your attitude in last few pages of posts, which could be summed up as "I'm right. If you don't agree with me, it doesn't matter because you are all wrong anyway. I'm much too qualified to speak on these matters to be bothered discussing these things with any of you properly".

In fact, here are a few of the Gallsman snobbery quotes at their finest:

- "I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours"

- "I'd have a lot more insight into that demographic's mindset so am slightly more qualified to comment."

- "Believe what you want, I actually don't give a shit."

- [I know] "A lot more [about the voting habits of GAA jersey wearers in universities] than you do, yes."

- "What exactly do you know of Trinity?"
 
- "I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters....Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant."

:D :D :D And I'M a snob!!?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 10:01:09 PM
How is that snobbery in any way?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: andoireabu on November 08, 2010, 10:05:46 PM
Haven't you heard? If you're not from Belfast, you're a culchie. And if you wear a GAA jersey by-God you vote Sinn Fein. A bit off-topic here but I can't stand this attitude some Belfast people have that the world revolves around their city!  >:(

Not what I was trying to imply at all. In Dublin people call me a culchie for being from Belfast so I'm well aware of the big bad world outside Belfast.

Doire, if you're asking me if I knew someone from West Belfast wearing a Crossmaglen top, yes I would 100% believe that it's reasonable to believe Sinn Fein would be their party of choice, if that particular person voted at all.
So you judge people you have never met simply by the clothes they randomly pick out that day and make calls on what they might or might not do and you don't think that snobbish? If a person wearing a jersey is representitive of a demographic then i hope you are not a representation of people who went to trinity with the stuff you have written on this thread.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 10:11:51 PM
Judge? Where did I say anything about judging them? In order to judge them I'd have to make some sort of objective decision about that particular person. I simply pointed to the jersey representing an increased likelihood.

If I see a fella walking down the street in Belfast wearing a Rangers top I automatically assume he's a prod. Anyone on the board who says they don't is talking through their holes.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hurler on the Bitch on November 08, 2010, 10:13:39 PM
Ref: UTV Live - The unelected Cooonnaalll and his "shared 'Northern Ireland'" sounds like the Alliance Party about 15 years ago; the joke about McGuinness and Robinson is straight out of the Two Ronnies cliche book, the lack of radicalism or relevancy was evident for all to see. Waiting on 'Simply the Best' belting out as yer woman did the Birdie Song at the end. Heaven save us from the People's Front of the Malone Road! Watch out for a Ulster Unionist / Alliance / SDLP coalition ticket at some stage.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 10:47:53 PM
Judge? Where did I say anything about judging them? In order to judge them I'd have to make some sort of objective decision about that particular person. I simply pointed to the jersey representing an increased likelihood.

If I see a fella walking down the street in Belfast wearing a Rangers top I automatically assume he's a prod. Anyone on the board who says they don't is talking through their holes.
but you wouldnt start assuming that he was a UUP voter or DUP voter etc, or maybe you would.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 10:59:26 PM
Judge? Where did I say anything about judging them? In order to judge them I'd have to make some sort of objective decision about that particular person. I simply pointed to the jersey representing an increased likelihood.

If I see a fella walking down the street in Belfast wearing a Rangers top I automatically assume he's a prod. Anyone on the board who says they don't is talking through their holes.
but you wouldnt start assuming that he was a UUP voter or DUP voter etc, or maybe you would.

No I wouldn't but then again, I'd have nothing else to go on. Which isn't the case for the example above, is it?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 11:04:56 PM
I dont understand that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:25:01 PM
The read again more carefully, it makes perfect sense.

Considering some of the accusations on this thread pints I've been looking for this gem of yours from quite a while back. Do you remember a discussion about Steve Redgrave potentially being one of the greatest sportsmen of all time? When you started to lose your way and got shouted down your response was:

Quote
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

At the very least I've tried to explain my point of view and the experiences I've based it on. You offer nothing.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:30:13 PM
Also Pints, we've done this before several times and we'll no doubt do it again. We both know neither is going to suddenly accept the other's arguement as legitimate.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 11:35:07 PM
The read again more carefully, it makes perfect sense.

Considering some of the accusations on this thread pints I've been looking for this gem of yours from quite a while back. Do you remember a discussion about Steve Redgrave potentially being one of the greatest sportsmen of all time? When you started to lose your way and got shouted down your response was:

Quote
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

At the very least I've tried to explain my point of view and the experiences I've based it on. You offer nothing.
No, post the thread.

I'd safely assume though that I wasn't pigeon holing people in to voting patterns based on the "country gaa jersies" they were wearing (when I first seen that I thought you mistyped and meant county gaa jersies )
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:37:53 PM
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

Pigeon-holing? Like the majority of night-time cinema-goers being dicks?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 11:38:43 PM
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

Pigeon-holing? Like the majority of night-time cinema-goers being dicks?
They are, have you ever been at the cinema at night.  Though I have no idea who they vote for.

Are you going to post that thread...
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:43:10 PM
Click the link, it takes you right to the thread.

I presume the last bit was meant to be tongue-in-cheek so I won't bite.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 11:48:18 PM
Am I missing something? There's no link?

Have you got a link to the thread where you said you had an ego?  :D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:52:07 PM
[/color]
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

Pigeon-holing? Like the majority of night-time cinema-goers being dicks?

That's a link. Your welcome for the free lesson - I know you old farts struggle with technology sometimes.

I don't have a link to that thread, but if you find it maybe you can read it again to see how much of a piss take it was. If I recall it started when I criticised the likes of ross4life for spending all their time on the Hot Ladies thread. Again if I recall correctly, which i do, you stated that you agreed with me :D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 08, 2010, 11:56:22 PM
Um, that's a quote.  A link is something you click on to bring you to a page i.e. the thread where I said that. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 08, 2010, 11:57:18 PM
Um, that's a quote.  A link is something you click on to bring you to a page i.e. the thread where I said that.

See where it says
Quote
Quote from: pintsofguinness on August 20, 2009, 02:29:24 PM
and it's underlined? Click that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 09, 2010, 12:05:09 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 12:05:57 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pintsofguinness on November 09, 2010, 12:11:19 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ross4life on November 09, 2010, 12:11:56 AM
[/color]
I see no point in discussing it further with you, it's my opinion, get over it.

Pigeon-holing? Like the majority of night-time cinema-goers being dicks?

That's a link. Your welcome for the free lesson - I know you old farts struggle with technology sometimes.

I don't have a link to that thread, but if you find it maybe you can read it again to see how much of a piss take it was. If I recall it started when I criticised the likes of ross4life for spending all their time on the Hot Ladies thread. Again if I recall correctly, which i do, you stated that you agreed with me :D

Totally untrue! Connacht GAA,Roscommon & Man Utd threads is where i spend all my time

Sorry for going off topic, you just had to include me  :-[ BTW  I'm enjoying this debate riveting stuff
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 12:48:32 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".

Another to ignore the fact that I also went to DCU. I find this fixation with Trinity hilarious - I'm not the one who keeps mentioning it.

I'd love someone to try and explain these accusations of snobbery. I've stated my belief of the likelihood of a certain demographic to be Sinn Fein supporters -  how is that snobbish or prejudiced in any way? In order for it to be so I would have to condemn being a Sinn Fein supporter as some form of inferiority. I happily challenge you all to point out where exactly this occurred.

Then again, I did go to Trinity so am obviously immediately intellectually superior to the lot of you and so am actually capable of understanding the meaning of the word "snob"  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ziggysego on November 09, 2010, 01:03:46 AM
The sexual tension in here is palpable.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Banana Man on November 09, 2010, 09:02:27 AM
Quote
Yes, that's what I said.

I offered up evidence of why I believe I'm qualified to comment on such matters. What have you offered?

I'm still waiting to find out what you know of Trinity and DCU.

I don't know why you are waiting to find out what I know, I would tell you, you would disagree, tell me that I don't know what I claim too and then decide that you were correct thus rendering all previous dialogue void and a waste of time  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 09:53:31 AM
Quote
Yes, that's what I said.

I offered up evidence of why I believe I'm qualified to comment on such matters. What have you offered?

I'm still waiting to find out what you know of Trinity and DCU.

I don't know why you are waiting to find out what I know, I would tell you, you would disagree, tell me that I don't know what I claim too and then decide that you were correct thus rendering all previous dialogue void and a waste of time  ::)
:D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 10:05:07 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".

Another to ignore the fact that I also went to DCU. I find this fixation with Trinity hilarious - I'm not the one who keeps mentioning it.

I'd love someone to try and explain these accusations of snobbery. I've stated my belief of the likelihood of a certain demographic to be Sinn Fein supporters -  how is that snobbish or prejudiced in any way? In order for it to be so I would have to condemn being a Sinn Fein supporter as some form of inferiority. I happily challenge you all to point out where exactly this occurred.

Then again, I did go to Trinity so am obviously immediately intellectually superior to the lot of you and so am actually capable of understanding the meaning of the word "snob"  ::) ::) ::)

Ehhh - already did, I'll not go through it all again but he's a couple of examples

- "I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours"
 
- "I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters....Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant."

Hopefully you will now realise that passing comment on who you assume people vote for due to their clothes isn't the only way you can be a snob. Quotes like those above and others I posted a page or two back should give plenty proof of that.

Glad to be of help.

(However I do expect that, despite what you said, you really wouldn't have loved to have had it pointed out to you; as no doubt you will blindly ignore all the proof of your snobbery, claiming it wasn't proof of snobbery at all.)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hedley Lamarr on November 09, 2010, 10:14:52 AM

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on November 09, 2010, 10:25:13 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".

Another to ignore the fact that I also went to DCU. I find this fixation with Trinity hilarious - I'm not the one who keeps mentioning it.

I'd love someone to try and explain these accusations of snobbery. I've stated my belief of the likelihood of a certain demographic to be Sinn Fein supporters -  how is that snobbish or prejudiced in any way? In order for it to be so I would have to condemn being a Sinn Fein supporter as some form of inferiority. I happily challenge you all to point out where exactly this occurred.

Then again, I did go to Trinity so am obviously immediately intellectually superior to the lot of you and so am actually capable of understanding the meaning of the word "snob"  ::) ::) ::)

Ehhh - already did, I'll not go through it all again but he's a couple of examples

- "I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours"
 
- "I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters....Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant."

Hopefully you will now realise that passing comment on who you assume people vote for due to their clothes isn't the only way you can be a snob. Quotes like those above and others I posted a page or two back should give plenty proof of that.

Glad to be of help.

(However I do expect that, despite what you said, you really wouldn't have loved to have had it pointed out to you; as no doubt you will blindly ignore all the proof of your snobbery, claiming it wasn't proof of snobbery at all.)

Those quotes probably better describe arrogance than snobbery.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 10:28:26 AM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".

Another to ignore the fact that I also went to DCU. I find this fixation with Trinity hilarious - I'm not the one who keeps mentioning it.

I'd love someone to try and explain these accusations of snobbery. I've stated my belief of the likelihood of a certain demographic to be Sinn Fein supporters -  how is that snobbish or prejudiced in any way? In order for it to be so I would have to condemn being a Sinn Fein supporter as some form of inferiority. I happily challenge you all to point out where exactly this occurred.

Then again, I did go to Trinity so am obviously immediately intellectually superior to the lot of you and so am actually capable of understanding the meaning of the word "snob"  ::) ::) ::)

Ehhh - already did, I'll not go through it all again but he's a couple of examples

- "I'm reinforcing the point that my insight is a lot greater than yours"
 
- "I believe I'm slightly better qualified than Pints to comment on such matters....Whether or not he or you dispute this is irrelevant."

Hopefully you will now realise that passing comment on who you assume people vote for due to their clothes isn't the only way you can be a snob. Quotes like those above and others I posted a page or two back should give plenty proof of that.

Glad to be of help.

(However I do expect that, despite what you said, you really wouldn't have loved to have had it pointed out to you; as no doubt you will blindly ignore all the proof of your snobbery, claiming it wasn't proof of snobbery at all.)

Those quotes probably better describe arrogance than snobbery.

I suppose an argument could be made for both alright!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 10:39:36 AM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 10:47:31 AM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 11:16:53 AM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?

It's evidence of my insight you clown, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. From the outset I stated my belief that this was the case. No matter what way you or anyone else tries to spin it, I did not come out and say I don't give a shit about anyone else's opinion on the matter becaus mine had to be right - what I stated was that I didn't give a shit about anyone's opinion of my qualification to state that belief seeing as nobody had attempted to offer any valid reason for why my insights might be invalid.

First of all, I come from the generation under discussion - Pints does not. I'd wager that you do as well, but are unwilling to admit it. I pray to God you're no older than me or I'll abandon my faith in humanity.

Secondly, I have MANY friends who study both law and medicine and have done over the last five or six years. These people come from all corners of this island, but are primarily from the six counties.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 11:41:50 AM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?

It's evidence of my insight you clown, which is what I've been talking about from the beginning. From the outset I stated my belief that this was the case. No matter what way you or anyone else tries to spin it, I did not come out and say I don't give a shit about anyone else's opinion on the matter becaus mine had to be right - what I stated was that I didn't give a shit about anyone's opinion of my qualification to state that belief seeing as nobody had attempted to offer any valid reason for why my insights might be invalid.

First of all, I come from the generation under discussion - Pints does not. I'd wager that you do as well, but are unwilling to admit it. I pray to God you're no older than me or I'll abandon my faith in humanity.

Secondly, I have MANY friends who study both law and medicine and have done over the last five or six years. These people come from all corners of this island, but are primarily from the six counties.

I have insight of students in law who wear GAA jerseys (and in medicine since you bring it up) who unfortunately wouldn't vote SF in a fit. So we both have "evidence" which contradicts each other. Well well well where do we go from here? Both of us have rock solid evidence which point to different conclusions  :o !!

I assume you didn't do law? I'm guessing you didn't simply because if you did, you would have a firmer grasp of the idea of evidence.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 11:52:02 AM
I have insight of students in law who wear GAA jerseys (and in medicine since you bring it up) who unfortunately wouldn't vote SF in a fit. So we both have "evidence" which contradicts each other. Well well well where do we go from here? Both of us have rock solid evidence which point to different conclusions  :o !!

I assume you didn't do law? I'm guessing you didn't simply because if you did, you would have a firmer grasp of the idea of evidence.

Congratulations! You've finally grasped the point. Thank you for finally explaining your insight, something you'dfailed to do so far. Your opinion is perfectly valid (becuase you've offered something to back it up) - that doesn't make mine invalid though, does it??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 01:26:04 PM
I also am being sarcastic when I refer to my friends' views as "evidence". It is not "evidence". It is still a plain old generalisation with no scientific or credible basis on which to prove it's accuracy. Like your generalisation.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 02:12:24 PM
I also am being sarcastic when I refer to my friends' views as "evidence". It is not "evidence". It is still a plain old generalisation with no scientific or credible basis on which to prove it's accuracy. Like your generalisation.

Bullshit, you're on the run again.

Poor choice of words, perhaps - you probably think of it as a compliment.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 02:16:26 PM
If you say so.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Banana Man on November 09, 2010, 02:30:45 PM
Quote
Quote from: Nally Stand on Today at 01:26:04 PM
I also am being sarcastic when I refer to my friends' views as "evidence". It is not "evidence". It is still a plain old generalisation with no scientific or credible basis on which to prove it's accuracy. Like your generalisation.


Bullshit, you're on the run again.

Poor choice of words, perhaps - you probably think of it as a compliment.

So when Nally tells you what he is thinking (that he was being sarcastic) you refuse to believe and tell him what you perceive his thoughts to be, I didn't realise Trinity done a course on reading other people's thoughts or was that what you done in DCU?? Perhaps you are Dereck Acorah  :D

That's before I even consider your pathetic attempt at political satire
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on November 09, 2010, 02:54:48 PM
Quote
Quote from: Nally Stand on Today at 01:26:04 PM
I also am being sarcastic when I refer to my friends' views as "evidence". It is not "evidence". It is still a plain old generalisation with no scientific or credible basis on which to prove it's accuracy. Like your generalisation.


Bullshit, you're on the run again.

Poor choice of words, perhaps - you probably think of it as a compliment.

So when Nally tells you what he is thinking (that he was being sarcastic) you refuse to believe and tell him what you perceive his thoughts to be, I didn't realise Trinity done a course on reading other people's thoughts or was that what you done in DCU?? Perhaps you are Dereck Acorah  :D

That's before I even consider your pathetic attempt at political satire

Satire? Where? I was being completely serious.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Arthur_Friend on November 09, 2010, 03:58:29 PM
Oh yeah, I remember that thread. You were acting a snob in it too and I wasn't so keen on continuing the discussion with you when you called me a bigot due to my views on rowing  ::)

No, the bigot comment had nothing to do with your views on rowing, just your personality in general
And there you go again, you know everything about everything and everyone, even me  :D

I'm not sure what word use to describe you - you've the Trinity education, what would a big word me for "an oul know-it-all".

Another to ignore the fact that I also went to DCU. I find this fixation with Trinity hilarious - I'm not the one who keeps mentioning it.

I'd love someone to try and explain these accusations of snobbery. I've stated my belief of the likelihood of a certain demographic to be Sinn Fein supporters -  how is that snobbish or prejudiced in any way? In order for it to be so I would have to condemn being a Sinn Fein supporter as some form of inferiority. I happily challenge you all to point out where exactly this occurred.

Then again, I did go to Trinity so am obviously immediately intellectually superior to the lot of you and so am actually capable of understanding the meaning of the word "snob"  ::) ::) ::)

Prejudice does not necessarily have to be negative, it is merely a preconceived judgement or opinion.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 09, 2010, 06:34:27 PM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?
Well it is evidence. It's probably anecdotal evidence and you can argue over the quality / reliability of it, but it is evidence.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Nally Stand on November 09, 2010, 07:13:42 PM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?
Well it is evidence. It's probably anecdotal evidence and you can argue over the quality / reliability of it, but it is evidence.
:D :D Honestly Maguire01, I don't know if you are Gallsmans cheerleader or my stalker!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Maguire01 on November 09, 2010, 07:23:42 PM
That's it, someone points out where you're wrong and you try to make it appear as if they were supporting you.

TAM - When posted like so, with selctive quoting, yes it can appear arrogant. However, when all posts are read in context it is quite clear that I stated my opinion, and then stated the reasons I believe entitle me to have that opinion. Is that arrogant?

What I would consider far more arrogant is a bunch of clowns attempting to shout me down and complaining about this and that, offerinf no evidence to support their claims and dismissing my opinion because, you know, I went to Trinity.

What EVIDENCE have you presented? All I have heard from you is that you have some friends who study law, therefor you believe that most law students who wear GAA jerseys support SF.

That is NOT "evidence". Why criticise people for not having any evidence with which to counter your opinion, when that opinion is one that you yourself cannot back up with any single solitary shred of evidence?
Well it is evidence. It's probably anecdotal evidence and you can argue over the quality / reliability of it, but it is evidence.
:D :D Honestly Maguire01, I don't know if you are Gallsmans cheerleader or my stalker!
Hilarious i'm sure.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hereiam on January 24, 2019, 09:29:44 PM
What are the SDLP doing. I fear this is the end of this party pairing up with that Finna fail crowd.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on January 24, 2019, 09:36:31 PM
The fact that nobody on here has posted a thing about the SDLP since 2010 sort of sums the whole thing up.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Hereiam on January 24, 2019, 10:01:58 PM
I suppose. My gripe with the SDLP is that they take every opportunity to make a swipe at SF. If you look at the UUP and the DUP you don't see this happening. You could say that the unionist have agreed to show a strong front where as our side look to make fools of each other.
Has any UUP member spoke out against what Paisley jr has been up to or the path the DUP is taking with brexit, very few.
I suppose the OO is keeping the thing together on a united front.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: omaghjoe on January 24, 2019, 10:43:44 PM
Just reading back over this thread and had a good oul laugh.

Seems like some lads were arguing about nawhin years ago still have to be arguing about nawhin
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on January 25, 2019, 06:23:19 AM
It's a last throw of the dice. SDLP has failed to make itself relevant in recent times. Perhaps this can bring a normality to their politics. Time will tell if that can help to regain the middle ground from SF.

 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: naka on January 25, 2019, 09:24:06 AM
It's a last throw of the dice. SDLP has failed to make itself relevant in recent times. Perhaps this can bring a normality to their politics. Time will tell if that can help to regain the middle ground from SF.
Trailer agree with the point on relevancy  and last throw of the dice for the sdlp but regards middle ground would you not think that in the main the middle ground have opted out and it’s for the sdlp to reach out to those nationalists who want the United ireland eventually but want education health  Brexit etc dealt with immediately.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on January 25, 2019, 09:29:15 AM
There's maybe some alliance in there too. I think parties like the greens (in south belfast anyway) get more than they used to as well but yeah I would say you're right in that a lot of the middle ground maybe don't vote any more and that would be half the reason we are in the mess we are in with those pricks the DUP supposedly representing us.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on January 25, 2019, 09:50:31 AM
There's maybe some alliance in there too. I think parties like the greens (in south belfast anyway) get more than they used to as well but yeah I would say you're right in that a lot of the middle ground maybe don't vote any more and that would be half the reason we are in the mess we are in with those pricks the DUP supposedly representing us.

In the likes of South Belfast, do you think pairing up with FF will do more harm than good?

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on January 25, 2019, 09:51:35 AM
The SDLP are being whacked from both sides. Firstly there has been a big drift to SF a) because SF became more acceptable post GFA and b) as a response to the ever more entrenched unionist electorate backing the DUP and their antics.
Secondly the Alliance party, since overly unionist Allardice left as leader they have become a lot more neutral as opposed to previously pro UK. A move which has resulted in them getting a number of pale green votes from previous SDLP voters. Recent research shows Alliance draw the majority of their votes from the catholic community background something confirmed at the the last euro election when the transfers were broken down.
Nationalism needs a second all Ireland party. If pbp or the green party had any wit about them they could have really exploited the SDLP's perilous position but instead they continue to dance around the constitutional question. This SDLP/FF arrangement is underwhelming. It makes a mockery of FF's promise to contest elections in 2019 some 5 yrs ago. Its also a problem for SDLP who have a green and red wing. Its a risk I think is worth taking though to stop the rot. The Irish labour party are at rock bottom and offer nothing so that really just left FF as a possible partner. The big loss in all this will be Clare Hanna who is one of the more capable politicians and probably had their best chance of winning back a Westminster seat as she would have got a broad coalition of votes to beat pengelly something MacDonnell used to have until people realised he was a bit of a bollox
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on January 25, 2019, 11:16:42 AM
The SDLP are being whacked from both sides. Firstly there has been a big drift to SF a) because SF became more acceptable post GFA and b) as a response to the ever more entrenched unionist electorate backing the DUP and their antics.
Secondly the Alliance party, since overly unionist Allardice left as leader they have become a lot more neutral as opposed to previously pro UK. A move which has resulted in them getting a number of pale green votes from previous SDLP voters. Recent research shows Alliance draw the majority of their votes from the catholic community background something confirmed at the the last euro election when the transfers were broken down.
Nationalism needs a second all Ireland party. If pbp or the green party had any wit about them they could have really exploited the SDLP's perilous position but instead they continue to dance around the constitutional question. This SDLP/FF arrangement is underwhelming. It makes a mockery of FF's promise to contest elections in 2019 some 5 yrs ago. Its also a problem for SDLP who have a green and red wing. Its a risk I think is worth taking though to stop the rot. The Irish labour party are at rock bottom and offer nothing so that really just left FF as a possible partner. The big loss in all this will be Clare Hanna who is one of the more capable politicians and probably had their best chance of winning back a Westminster seat as she would have got a broad coalition of votes to beat pengelly something MacDonnell used to have until people realised he was a bit of a bollox

The thing about a UI is that the North will be subsumed into the South
SF is now a Dublin party.  O'Neill is only deputy leader

The North needs a party to fight its corner in a UI 

But  it would be a much nicer problem to have than a hard border
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: snoopdog on January 25, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
I would have voted SF in the past. But they have done nothing for anyone in the last few years.
If The SDLP had Claire Hanna as a leader then they may well start to make gains. Joining with FF i think is not the answer.
Sf sit back while health education etc is collapsing around them all just to get one over the DUP. Its fine for mary lou she has no family in the North. I live in Dublin now but i see with elderly parents what the outcome of this sf dup stand off is. Its time for a change from both sides. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Walter Cronc on January 25, 2019, 11:29:13 AM
Agree here - have lost major respect for SF at a very local level over the past year!

Apart from John Finucane - not many if any inspire me.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on January 25, 2019, 01:09:29 PM
I would have voted SF in the past. But they have done nothing for anyone in the last few years.
If The SDLP had Claire Hanna as a leader then they may well start to make gains. Joining with FF i think is not the answer.
Sf sit back while health education etc is collapsing around them all just to get one over the DUP. Its fine for mary lou she has no family in the North. I live in Dublin now but i see with elderly parents what the outcome of this sf dup stand off is. Its time for a change from both sides.

Interesting that there's a lot of support for Claire Hanna, who wouldn't be a huge advocate for a UI. Claire would also be on the very left of the party.

Agree the whole link up is a bit underwhelming but get the impression that both parties have left room to reverse out of the link-up should it tank.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: haranguerer on January 25, 2019, 02:54:05 PM
I would have voted SF in the past. But they have done nothing for anyone in the last few years.
If The SDLP had Claire Hanna as a leader then they may well start to make gains. Joining with FF i think is not the answer.
Sf sit back while health education etc is collapsing around them all just to get one over the DUP. Its fine for mary lou she has no family in the North. I live in Dublin now but i see with elderly parents what the outcome of this sf dup stand off is. Its time for a change from both sides.

Can you explain that?

My reading of the current scenario is that SF made concessions and came to a deal with the DUP, which was then veto'ed by 'shadowy forces' behind the DUP. What would you have SF do? The ball clearly isn't in their court - they don't even have anyone to negotiate with, as the DUP don't appear to have any power to agree a deal!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bigarsedkeeper on January 25, 2019, 04:29:24 PM
I would have voted SF in the past. But they have done nothing for anyone in the last few years.
If The SDLP had Claire Hanna as a leader then they may well start to make gains. Joining with FF i think is not the answer.
Sf sit back while health education etc is collapsing around them all just to get one over the DUP. Its fine for mary lou she has no family in the North. I live in Dublin now but i see with elderly parents what the outcome of this sf dup stand off is. Its time for a change from both sides.
I think the SDLP still have a few decent politicians out there but the damage done by the years of Dr Death (McDonnell) and Ritchie leaves them way back. Hanna is one and I don't think Eastwood is that bad. They have made out to be west brits by SF now and the fact that they were seen to have delivered nothing in the years they had the majority has left them on the outside.

Will SF be accused of the same in future years - Stormont as good as closed down for the foreseeable future with the Brexit issues and there is a genuine threat of a border in Ireland again. SF didn't cause that but they were in the front seat during it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on January 25, 2019, 06:39:13 PM
I would have voted SF in the past. But they have done nothing for anyone in the last few years.
If The SDLP had Claire Hanna as a leader then they may well start to make gains. Joining with FF i think is not the answer.
Sf sit back while health education etc is collapsing around them all just to get one over the DUP. Its fine for mary lou she has no family in the North. I live in Dublin now but i see with elderly parents what the outcome of this sf dup stand off is. Its time for a change from both sides.

Can you explain that?

My reading of the current scenario is that SF made concessions and came to a deal with the DUP, which was then veto'ed by 'shadowy forces' behind the DUP. What would you have SF do? The ball clearly isn't in their court - they don't even have anyone to negotiate with, as the DUP don't appear to have any power to agree a deal!!

Mc Guinness tried very hard to make things work - for the betterment of everyone, regardless of who they were or where they lived.  The DUP did everything in their power to walk all over nationalists.  The list is endless. Was so happy when Mc Guinness pulled the pin on Stormont to be honest.  There was no power sharing at that time.  The DUP still have the 1920 mentalitybut times have changed.  No return to Stormont for me.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on January 26, 2019, 11:41:50 AM
Heard Colm Eastwood on Radio Ulster yesterday morning saying he is ready to go into Stormont and get the institutions up and running again. Interesting perspective there. I wonder which of the important basic, reasonable measures that SF are looking for would the SDLP relinquish for that goal?  Irish Language act? Marriage Equality? SF voters gave the party a very clear message that the policy of appeasing the DUP and giving them their way was not going to be tolerated any more. In fact, in the two elections during which time SF were in power with the DUP, the entire nationalist vote went down because they decided not to vote for either party. Colm Eastwood is totally out of touch if he thinks that the position of northern nationalists has changed one iota from that position. In fact, if anything, the Brexit thing has probably entrenched us even more. The DUP went against the advice of all the other parties in NI, the entire business community and every analysis from normal rational people and voted against the Backstop which would have been a genuine financial dynamo for this unworkable entity of NO, but they turned against it, despite knowing a majority here voted to Remain. None of this is evidence of new, reasonable thinking within that party which would make them amenable to nationalist aspirations if Stormont were to return. In fact, every time you watch their interviews, it just entrenches us even more. Colm Eastwood stating he is prepared to walk into Stormont with them without stating under which conditions, is further evidence of his waffle type answers and why the SDLP is dead in the water.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Kidder81 on January 26, 2019, 11:48:10 AM
SF were quite prepared to sacrifice ILA & marriage equality, if you remember correctly
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on January 26, 2019, 11:51:26 AM
DOn’t think they were. there was a choreography agreed that would see both of these introduced in time through the ending of the petition of concern and the fact that the ILA is a Westminster piece of legislation.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Kidder81 on January 26, 2019, 12:28:05 PM
I don’t know anyone that thinks marriage equality is enough not to have a functioning government, SF know it isn’t too, they were content without marriage equality or an ILA for years, marriage equality is just yet another cause that SF aligned themselves with.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: haranguerer on January 26, 2019, 03:38:41 PM
Standard exchange

'SF should do whatever it takes to get back into government'

'well, they did make a lot of compromises to reach an agreement with the DUP, but it was then veto'ed by others, so the balls not really in their court'

'ha, SF obviously don't care about any of those issues they were going to compromise on'

'Well, they do, but they were willing to compromise like you said'

'...................none of those issues matter anyway'

 ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on January 27, 2019, 08:39:43 PM
SF do not care one iota for an ILA or marriage equality and if you think they do you’re a fool. This is about playing to the Felons club who have seen the DUP run rings around an inept SF leadership and have simply called time because the political ability doesn’t exist in the party to take on the DUP.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on January 27, 2019, 09:52:18 PM
I am not a sf fan by any stretch but I really don’t think the dup have been running rings round them. All the dups “ducks” have lined up but they will come unstuck soon enough.

I would agree that I don’t think they care about an ila or marriage equality mind you. They probably are the right things to take them on at though.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: yellowcard on January 27, 2019, 11:27:27 PM
The only people the DUP have been running rings around are the people in the north whose livelihoods they are treating with complete contempt.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RealSpiritof98 on February 09, 2019, 11:55:06 PM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 10, 2019, 07:32:53 AM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?

Alliance Party.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on February 10, 2019, 08:49:14 AM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?

Alliance Party.

Alliance party would be extremely risky. They already have ex uup Bradshaw as an mla they wont get enough votes for 2 even with Hanna bringing some personal vote with her. Likewise an independent is risky for the same reasons. All academic since stormont isnt going to be up and running again anytime soon. I think Hanna made the mistake of being so vocal. Fair play to her for sticking to her principles but she has kind of cornered herself  she could have just said she wasnt happy and left it at that. It could be yrs if ever before sdlp candidates have to stand under FF banner.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on February 10, 2019, 10:09:03 AM
Continuity SDLP.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 10, 2019, 10:49:07 AM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?

Alliance Party.

She'll never join Alliance. She's a Social Democrat.

Be interesting to see how this plays out for the SDLP. Will the presence of prominent FF politicians on the campaign trail be enough to give them the polling boost they so badly need.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on February 10, 2019, 10:59:55 AM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?

Alliance Party.

Alliance party would be extremely risky. They already have ex uup Bradshaw as an mla they wont get enough votes for 2 even with Hanna bringing some personal vote with her. Likewise an independent is risky for the same reasons. All academic since stormont isnt going to be up and running again anytime soon. I think Hanna made the mistake of being so vocal. Fair play to her for sticking to her principles but she has kind of cornered herself  she could have just said she wasnt happy and left it at that. It could be yrs if ever before sdlp candidates have to stand under FF banner.

They may not be standing under a FF banner but as far as the voters are concerned it is now FF.

With PR voting there is always room for an independent, just look at the Dail. Hanna could easily form another party if she shows true left wing, social democratic credentials with a nationalist standpoint, what the SDLP should have become.  It might survive mostly in the east while Tobin makes in-road into the rural areas of the west. PR gives breathing space to multiple parties but Stormont denies them the power found in normal parliamentary systems.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 10, 2019, 11:18:59 AM
MLA Claire Hanna seems to have deleted all SDLP mentions from social media, where next for what seems like a very competent politician?

Alliance Party.

Alliance party would be extremely risky. They already have ex uup Bradshaw as an mla they wont get enough votes for 2 even with Hanna bringing some personal vote with her. Likewise an independent is risky for the same reasons. All academic since stormont isnt going to be up and running again anytime soon. I think Hanna made the mistake of being so vocal. Fair play to her for sticking to her principles but she has kind of cornered herself  she could have just said she wasnt happy and left it at that. It could be yrs if ever before sdlp candidates have to stand under FF banner.

They may not be standing under a FF banner but as far as the voters are concerned it is now FF.

With PR voting there is always room for an independent, just look at the Dail. Hanna could easily form another party if she shows true left wing, social democratic credentials with a nationalist standpoint, what the SDLP should have become.  It might survive mostly in the east while Tobin makes in-road into the rural areas of the west. PR gives breathing space to multiple parties but Stormont denies them the power found in normal parliamentary systems.

Tobin's party is a single issue party. Like most other single issue parties I can't see him making any in roads at all.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: pbat on February 10, 2019, 11:34:24 AM
Hanna should sit tight for a few years, she would be the ideal candidate for South Belfast as an independent get that sc**bag Pengelly out. If the Shinners do the right thing and stand aside for her.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 10, 2019, 11:47:57 AM
Hanna should sit tight for a few years, she would be the ideal candidate for South Belfast as an independent get that sc**bag Pengelly out. If the Shinners do the right thing and stand aside for her.

Pengelly is an excellent constituency MP, running around trying to make sure that the bus stops don't have bad words on them like "Short Strand".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on February 10, 2019, 11:53:10 AM
Ah good old Emma - uvf flags are not sectarian or intimidating to catholics, if you need new windows after the bonfires claim on your home insurance, we must change the name of this bus stop as it makes us sound like taigues - pengelly.

A wonderful mp she is too ;D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 10, 2019, 12:30:09 PM
The sad thing is that the so-called "progressive" parties in South Belfast can't, or won't, unite around an agreed candidate to unseat her. Mind you, nor do I think that Hanna is the answer either inside, or outside, the SDLP. SF will probably never give anyone else a free run anyway, so it looks like we're stuck with a complete bigot.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Kidder81 on February 10, 2019, 12:53:30 PM
The sad thing is that the so-called "progressive" parties in South Belfast can't, or won't, unite around an agreed candidate to unseat her. Mind you, nor do I think that Hanna is the answer either inside, or outside, the SDLP. SF will probably never give anyone else a free run anyway, so it looks like we're stuck with a complete bigot.

Yeah the SF “free run” only seems to work one way with them, they would rather have a bigot like Pengelly than SDLP
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on February 10, 2019, 02:02:25 PM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on February 10, 2019, 02:08:02 PM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on February 10, 2019, 02:13:27 PM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.

The constituency is represented by the democratic winner on the basis of the electoral system in place. Whether she's a **** or not (she clearly is) is moot.

It's the 21st century. People talk of moving on and a brighter future and all that but are hypocritically blinded when it comes to the idea that electoral pacts are by definition anti democratic.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 10, 2019, 07:08:20 PM
Next thing you'll be telling us is that the "democratic" in Democratic Unionist Party is a fair reflection of the views of that particular band of upstanding citizens....oh , apart from corruption, drink driving convictions among Councillors, sexual assault convictions, dodgy planning applications, package holidays galore, Ulster Resistance, RHI etc etc. Fit representatives of the people indeed.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 10, 2019, 07:13:33 PM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.

The constituency is represented by the democratic winner on the basis of the electoral system in place. Whether she's a **** or not (she clearly is) is moot.

It's the 21st century. People talk of moving on and a brighter future and all that but are hypocritically blinded when it comes to the idea that electoral pacts are by definition anti democratic.

If the majority of Nationalists in South Belfast wanted a Nationalist MP they should've went out and voted Alasdair McDonnell. It's rather quite simple.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: gallsman on February 10, 2019, 07:57:10 PM
Some people, believe it or not, are capable of looking past the fact that McDonnell represents a supposedly nationalist party and voting with their conscience.

He is a thoroughly dislikeable f**ker altogether with plenty of skeletons in his closet. Voting for him just to keep out the DUP would have been reprehensible.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LooseCannon on February 10, 2019, 09:56:03 PM
Some people, believe it or not, are capable of looking past the fact that McDonnell represents a supposedly nationalist party and voting with their conscience.

He is a thoroughly dislikeable f**ker altogether with plenty of skeletons in his closet. Voting for him just to keep out the DUP would have been reprehensible.

Please tell us more of his skeletons.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Wildweasel74 on February 11, 2019, 12:49:28 AM
Sinn fein could never get the voter nos for south Belfast but could to enough to skewer the SDLP which had been s long term objective. So we get Pengelly for that mentality. And it not be lost on me nxt time caoimhe Arch. Coming round looking a vote..
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: omaghjoe on February 11, 2019, 03:54:57 AM
A pact for north/south belfast along with one for FST & Upper Bann would seem fairly logical esp for the SDLP.

If we haven't seen it yet doubt we'll see it now with FF involved who would love to give the shinners a bloody nose in the north. The root of it all seems to me mainly cos the stoops are too proud.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on February 11, 2019, 10:45:16 AM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.

The constituency is represented by the democratic winner on the basis of the electoral system in place. Whether she's a **** or not (she clearly is) is moot.

It's the 21st century. People talk of moving on and a brighter future and all that but are hypocritically blinded when it comes to the idea that electoral pacts are by definition anti democratic.

If the majority of Nationalists in South Belfast wanted a Nationalist MP they should've went out and voted Alasdair McDonnell. It's rather quite simple.

Was Alasdair a social democrat or just a member of the SDLP?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 11, 2019, 10:49:26 AM
Electoral pacts serve what purpose? Keep themmuns out? That's the politics of a cess pit. That mentality has this place in the mess it is. Every party should stand on its manifesto. The electorate should then go out and vote for the party they think best represents them. Vote for something. Argue, disagree etc, but go out and vote for something rather than voting against something.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 11, 2019, 10:55:40 AM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.

The constituency is represented by the democratic winner on the basis of the electoral system in place. Whether she's a **** or not (she clearly is) is moot.

It's the 21st century. People talk of moving on and a brighter future and all that but are hypocritically blinded when it comes to the idea that electoral pacts are by definition anti democratic.

If the majority of Nationalists in South Belfast wanted a Nationalist MP they should've went out and voted Alasdair McDonnell. It's rather quite simple.

Was Alasdair a social democrat or just a member of the SDLP?

Are you asking me? I don't know. Keen to find out more about his skeletons though. Being a doctor he probably has at least one skeleton alright.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on February 11, 2019, 11:26:56 AM
He was fond of a good auld expense claim. I don't know the full ins and outs but I suspect if you google you should find it out.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Saffrongael on February 11, 2019, 01:15:41 PM
He was fond of a good auld expense claim. I don't know the full ins and outs but I suspect if you google you should find it out.

What politician isn’t ?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on February 11, 2019, 01:32:35 PM
Same old story.

Chat about reviving democratic institutions out of one side of our mouths and then playing electoral gains to keep themmuns out of South Belfast from the other. Absolute nonsense.


The only nonsense is the constituency with the highest remain vote in NI is represented by a cnut.

The constituency is represented by the democratic winner on the basis of the electoral system in place. Whether she's a **** or not (she clearly is) is moot.

It's the 21st century. People talk of moving on and a brighter future and all that but are hypocritically blinded when it comes to the idea that electoral pacts are by definition anti democratic.

If the majority of Nationalists in South Belfast wanted a Nationalist MP they should've went out and voted Alasdair McDonnell. It's rather quite simple.

Was Alasdair a social democrat or just a member of the SDLP?

Are you asking me? I don't know. Keen to find out more about his skeletons though. Being a doctor he probably has at least one skeleton alright.

Well certainly SF played a pretty dirty campaign last time leaking all sorts of accusations against McDonnell. No idea if they were true or not but nothing to this day has come of them. McDonnell surprisingly increased his vote share despite the smear campaign last time unfortunately the UUP vote collapsed and all nice moderate Unionists decided to vote for the bigot DUP just to keep a taig out
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on February 11, 2019, 02:29:17 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47200039

Not good news for the SDLP.  Essentially, the SDL part of the party was sacrificed for Saturday's agreement to enter into an 'understanding' with Fianna Fail.  Now, an majorl part of the P has gone too.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 11, 2019, 03:06:04 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47200039

Not good news for the SDLP.  Essentially, the SDL part of the party was sacrificed for Saturday's agreement to enter into an 'understanding' with Fianna Fail.  Now, an majorl part of the P has gone too.

It would appear Claire is only a Democrat when it suits her. Sad but something has to change or there’ll be no party to resign from.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on February 11, 2019, 03:16:29 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47200039

Not good news for the SDLP.  Essentially, the SDL part of the party was sacrificed for Saturday's agreement to enter into an 'understanding' with Fianna Fail.  Now, an majorl part of the P has gone too.

It would appear Claire is only a Democrat when it suits her. Sad but something has to change or there’ll be no party to resign from.

Pathetic.

You can be a democrat, accept a vote has gone against you and then take whatever actions your principles demand. In her case, the party she belonged to voted to become a branch of FF, a centre right party and moved away from its founding principles and any pretence of being social democrats with left leaning policies. She has her principles and decided to resign her portfolio and become an independent.  Strange though that she wants to remain a member of the party.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 12, 2019, 10:58:13 AM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-47200039

Not good news for the SDLP.  Essentially, the SDL part of the party was sacrificed for Saturday's agreement to enter into an 'understanding' with Fianna Fail.  Now, an majorl part of the P has gone too.

It would appear Claire is only a Democrat when it suits her. Sad but something has to change or there’ll be no party to resign from.

Pathetic.

You can be a democrat, accept a vote has gone against you and then take whatever actions your principles demand. In her case, the party she belonged to voted to become a branch of FF, a centre right party and moved away from its founding principles and any pretence of being social democrats with left leaning policies. She has her principles and decided to resign her portfolio and become an independent.  Strange though that she wants to remain a member of the party.

There's nothing pathetic about it. Claire should shite or get off the pot. She hasn't resigned from the party just the assembly whip.
It was a simple choice for the SDLP. Adapt or die. In my view they should have went much further and taken the Spanish conquistador Hernando Cortez's approach and burned the ships.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: lurganblue on February 12, 2019, 11:41:43 AM
Electoral pacts serve what purpose? Keep themmuns out? That's the politics of a cess pit. That mentality has this place in the mess it is. Every party should stand on its manifesto. The electorate should then go out and vote for the party they think best represents them. Vote for something. Argue, disagree etc, but go out and vote for something rather than voting against something.

Agreed. I personally only vote for one party that i agree with on a majority of issues. A pact would be no good to me as i would not vote for a different party just so another "side" wont get in.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on February 12, 2019, 12:13:39 PM
Claire Hanna is undoubtedly articulate, but like most politicians a little too rehearsed in her arguments. I think Claire and her supporters like Briege Rogers represent the cultural nationalist wing of the SDLP and the slightly greener part has cast them adrift with the Fianna Fail alliance. The Shinners seem to be mopping up the yoof so difficult for the SDLP to keep going with out a broader all-Ireland approach. Their mistake is in only going half way.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on February 23, 2019, 06:29:44 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 23, 2019, 06:51:18 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SDLP are a busted flush now....but what gets me is SF voters who see no wrong in their party.....a party that endorsed Tory austerity and awarded PIP assessment contracts to Capita.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Saffrongael on February 23, 2019, 07:36:44 PM
Dunno if the parties have a hatred of Sinn Fein it’s just very easy to point out their hypocrisy on a range of issues
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 23, 2019, 10:01:38 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

Fianna Fáil the so-called Republican party.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on February 23, 2019, 10:19:50 PM
Dunno if the parties have a hatred of Sinn Fein it’s just very easy to point out their hypocrisy on a range of issues
I’d say the truth is that the SDLP are raging that Sinn Fein have driven them to political insignificance and Fianna Fáil are wary they’re next. No more, no less.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LCohen on February 23, 2019, 11:00:53 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’, This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

No they don’t think that. They just think it’s the right thing to do. Imagine that?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on February 24, 2019, 12:30:36 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’, This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

No they don’t think that. They just think it’s the right thing to do. Imagine that?

At this stage, SF are one of the greatest obstacles to United Ireland, both in their coat trailing demeanour and their inability to put forward a credible economic policy that does not involve taxing the shite out of people. The challenge for SF is not whether they can please their own cultists but whether they can in fact actually advance a United Ireland.   
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 24, 2019, 09:15:57 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SF have created a two party sectarian state in NI. They think the election results in the North are an honest reflective of their popularity. The recent Presidential election showed were they are. A protest vote
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LCohen on February 24, 2019, 09:30:24 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’, This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

No they don’t think that. They just think it’s the right thing to do. Imagine that?

At this stage, SF are one of the greatest obstacles to United Ireland, both in their coat trailing demeanour and their inability to put forward a credible economic policy that does not involve taxing the shite out of people. The challenge for SF is not whether they can please their own cultists but whether they can in fact actually advance a United Ireland.

SF could look to Brexit. Brexit shows that you can win a referendum on the basis of sloganeering. But major constitutional change against the backdrop of a divided electorate needs detailed planning. At this stage there is no indication that SF can or are even trying to achieve that. Right now a special place in hell awaits for them and their Faragesque posturing
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LCohen on February 24, 2019, 09:35:34 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SF have created a two party sectarian state in NI. They think the election results in the North are an honest reflective of their popularity. The recent Presidential election showed were they are. A protest vote

The DUP and SF votes are protest votes that are encouraged by the D’Hondt/Jefferson system. Nationalists are encouraged to vote SF to prevent a DUP FM. And vice versa
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on February 24, 2019, 09:25:12 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SF have created a two party sectarian state in NI. They think the election results in the North are an honest reflective of their popularity. The recent Presidential election showed were they are. A protest vote

The DUP and SF votes are protest votes that are encouraged by the D’Hondt/Jefferson system. Nationalists are encouraged to vote SF to prevent a DUP FM. And vice versa

As institutionalised by the flawed St Andrews agreement to provide a fig leaf for SF and DUP to get together in government and have SF onboard with policing.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on February 25, 2019, 11:24:11 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SDLP are a busted flush now....but what gets me is SF voters who see no wrong in their party.....a party that endorsed Tory austerity and awarded PIP assessment contracts to Capita.
I vote SF, but do not agree with all that they do and would love the chance to vote for a proper nationalist party without the baggage associated with memorials etc... The SDLP though criticise SF for not rolling over on the assembly, I don't want nationalists to go into Stormont without proper recognition of our rights as Irish citizens and equality for all that it embraces, which is the problem I have with the SDLP.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on February 25, 2019, 11:25:48 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’, This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

No they don’t think that. They just think it’s the right thing to do. Imagine that?
All the Nationalist parties north and south are all over the show on this, it is up to them all to carve out a way forward not just the Shinners.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on February 25, 2019, 11:58:27 AM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: haranguerer on February 25, 2019, 12:18:51 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SF have created a two party sectarian state in NI. They think the election results in the North are an honest reflective of their popularity. The recent Presidential election showed were they are. A protest vote

The DUP and SF votes are protest votes that are encouraged by the D’Hondt/Jefferson system. Nationalists are encouraged to vote SF to prevent a DUP FM. And vice versa

Really???
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Sportacus on February 25, 2019, 06:24:19 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.
If Sinn Fein deliver a United Ireland it will be a nasty, troubled affair because Unionists simply don't trust SF and never will, in fact they despise them.  SDLP could have a much better chance of getting there more peacefully and probably more quickly, if only they could see the opportunity and had the talent in their ranks to attract voters back.   
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on February 25, 2019, 07:34:51 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.
If Sinn Fein deliver a United Ireland it will be a nasty, troubled affair because Unionists simply don't trust SF and never will, in fact they despise them.  SDLP could have a much better chance of getting there more peacefully and probably more quickly, if only they could see the opportunity and had the talent in their ranks to attract voters back.   

History clearlyy shows that unionists 'simply don't trust' nationalists' of any sort...whatever shade of green they are.

Unionists are ok with nationalists if they just keep the head down and don't rock the boat.  That day is over.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LCohen on February 25, 2019, 08:38:14 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SF have created a two party sectarian state in NI. They think the election results in the North are an honest reflective of their popularity. The recent Presidential election showed were they are. A protest vote

The DUP and SF votes are protest votes that are encouraged by the D’Hondt/Jefferson system. Nationalists are encouraged to vote SF to prevent a DUP FM. And vice versa

Really???

Yes
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LooseCannon on February 25, 2019, 08:54:35 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SDLP are a busted flush now....but what gets me is SF voters who see no wrong in their party.....a party that endorsed Tory austerity and awarded PIP assessment contracts to Capita.
I vote SF, but do not agree with all that they do and would love the chance to vote for a proper nationalist party without the baggage associated with memorials etc... The SDLP though criticise SF for not rolling over on the assembly, I don't want nationalists to go into Stormont without proper recognition of our rights as Irish citizens and equality for all that it embraces, which is the problem I have with the SDLP.

You do realise that the SDLP are the only party to date that have a plan as to what an Irish Language Act would look like and how it would be implemented. It’s all soundbites and spin from the Shinners. Check out Mick Fealty’s tweets.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 25, 2019, 09:13:22 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.

Why don't you go and read the proposals that the SDLP have published, rather than spouting incoherent SF gibberish.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on February 25, 2019, 09:39:45 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.

Why don't you go and read the proposals that the SDLP have published, rather than spouting incoherent SF gibberish.


This is the perfect articulation of the SDLPs problem. Someone has gone to the hassle to outline what it would take to make them pick the SDLP the next time they enter the ballot box. The response (from people who I assume are sympathetic to the SDLP)  is to 1) Preach at them 2) Illustrate how badly the SDLP are at promoting their own policies (Note: Political parties “sell” their vision to the electorate - they do not “instruct” them to go read their proposals)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on February 25, 2019, 09:46:45 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.

Why don't you go and read the proposals that the SDLP have published, rather than spouting incoherent SF gibberish.


This is the perfect articulation of the SDLPs problem. Someone has gone to the hassle to outline what it would take to make them pick the SDLP the next time they enter the ballot box. The response (from people who I assume are sympathetic to the SDLP)  is to 1) Preach at them 2) Illustrate how badly the SDLP are at promoting their own policies (Note: Political parties “sell” their vision to the electorate - they do not “instruct” them to go read their proposals)

The detailed policies are there but it's now the SDLP's fault people can't be arsed to go and read the information they actually want. They want someone to read it for them and summarise it on a GAA board for them.
They complain the information isn't there when it is then take offence when their own laziness is pointed out.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on February 25, 2019, 10:05:58 PM
If I was advising the SDLP, I would tell them to Green up.  Now that they have embraced FF, they need to accept that the Social Democracy element of their party is gone and they need to be working for and planning towards a United Ireland.  They need to be at one voice with SF on Stormont, Brexit and DUP dysfunction and be very clear that under the current situation, they two could not countenance going back into the Executive. And they certainly need to stop the complete nonsense on abstenstionism. When the election comes, nationalists are then clear that both their parties are at one voice on the national question, therefore it comes down to a vote on who is the better candidate.  The current SDLP approach is just plain ridiculous.  Nobody, including themselves really have a clue what they are about, so it becomes a vague 'Get back into Stormont' rant that makes no acknowledgement at all towards the issues that got us to where we are.  The other thing that keeps them going is that they spend their time 'marking' SF and making counter statements nit picking the SF approach and not offering one pragmatic idea themselves.

Why don't you go and read the proposals that the SDLP have published, rather than spouting incoherent SF gibberish.


This is the perfect articulation of the SDLPs problem. Someone has gone to the hassle to outline what it would take to make them pick the SDLP the next time they enter the ballot box. The response (from people who I assume are sympathetic to the SDLP)  is to 1) Preach at them 2) Illustrate how badly the SDLP are at promoting their own policies (Note: Political parties “sell” their vision to the electorate - they do not “instruct” them to go read their proposals)

The detailed policies are there but it's now the SDLP's fault people can't be arsed to go and read the information they actually want. They want someone to read it for them and summarise it on a GAA board for them.
They complain the information isn't there when it is then take offence when their own laziness is pointed out.



I like lists so:

1) Yes it is the SDLP’s fault people don’t read their policies.Who else’s fault would it be? Just so it’s completely clear,  it’s the responsibility of political parties who are seeking public office to “sell” their policies to the demos. Especially when you have less activists that the main opposition. This is literally Politics 101.
2) Yes people want summaries - what amount of people do you ever think read full manifestos before voting? I’d guess a third of people if your lucky. Therefore in order to help the people make a decision you help make the decision simple for them - think “It’s The Economy Stupid”, “Yes We Can”, “Make America Great Again”, “Tiocfaidh ar la”, “Take Back Control” etc etc
3) Yes a lot of people are lazy when it come to political analysis  - know your audience and adapt accordingly - see point 2
4) When someone is motivated enough to suggest a strategy that will attract them to a party they want to be listened to, not preached at - see points 2 and 3 (FYI this also helps explain some of SF’s problems down south.
5) People aren’t complaining that information isn’t out there, they are complaining they don’t know what the SDLP stands for - see points 2 -5
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on February 26, 2019, 10:46:11 AM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SDLP are a busted flush now....but what gets me is SF voters who see no wrong in their party.....a party that endorsed Tory austerity and awarded PIP assessment contracts to Capita.
I vote SF, but do not agree with all that they do and would love the chance to vote for a proper nationalist party without the baggage associated with memorials etc... The SDLP though criticise SF for not rolling over on the assembly, I don't want nationalists to go into Stormont without proper recognition of our rights as Irish citizens and equality for all that it embraces, which is the problem I have with the SDLP.

You do realise that the SDLP are the only party to date that have a plan as to what an Irish Language Act would look like and how it would be implemented. It’s all soundbites and spin from the Shinners. Check out Mick Fealty’s tweets.

Mick hates the Shinners every bit as much as the likes of RDE and the Sindo ilk and is blinded by that.

If the Shinners don't have an ILA and a plan to implement it then what did the DUP team agree to take back to their party/OO/Jamwie Bwyson and Co for ratification?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on February 26, 2019, 12:18:16 PM
Colm Eastwood spoke at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis today and for his greatest ovations when he criticized SF for their abstentionnistes policy and for having the audacity to suggest that a referendum on irish unity should be a consideration after Brexit. Do they really think that this sort of rhetoric is going to drive SF voters in their droves and into the arms of the SDFF ‘understanding’,  This sort of nonsense drives northern nationalists up the walls.  it is just the very self same thing that will lose them even more voters. Those to parties are connected by only one thing and that is their hatred for Sinn Fein.

SDLP are a busted flush now....but what gets me is SF voters who see no wrong in their party.....a party that endorsed Tory austerity and awarded PIP assessment contracts to Capita.
I vote SF, but do not agree with all that they do and would love the chance to vote for a proper nationalist party without the baggage associated with memorials etc... The SDLP though criticise SF for not rolling over on the assembly, I don't want nationalists to go into Stormont without proper recognition of our rights as Irish citizens and equality for all that it embraces, which is the problem I have with the SDLP.

You do realise that the SDLP are the only party to date that have a plan as to what an Irish Language Act would look like and how it would be implemented. It’s all soundbites and spin from the Shinners. Check out Mick Fealty’s tweets.

Mick hates the Shinners every bit as much as the likes of RDE and the Sindo ilk and is blinded by that.

If the Shinners don't have an ILA and a plan to implement it then what did the DUP team agree to take back to their party/OO/Jamwie Bwyson and Co for ratification?
 

It was a useless ILA about as watered down as you could get and still wasnt acceptable to the UDA oops i mean unionists. As for Featly as much as I like his site he himself is odd and cerainly doesnt have much time for nationalism. I dont know if he is just playing devils advocate or feels he needs to make up for an imbalance on his site that doesnt actually exist. I dont know.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on March 04, 2019, 02:55:51 PM
Mark Durcan wtf  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on March 04, 2019, 08:01:26 PM
Any ould job will do, with any party.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: grounded on March 04, 2019, 08:47:55 PM
Mark Durcan wtf  ::)

Well that was unexpected.  A massive coup for fine gael, timed perfectly after the sdlp/fianna fail partnership last month.
           Seems like the call went out to abandon ship and the former captain jumped first. Sad. Sad for the legacy of John Hume and the party he helped build.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: omaghjoe on March 05, 2019, 05:54:46 AM
Strange move and it looks to be the end of the SDLP

I thought durkan a decent skin but for a supposed nationalist to join Fine Gael it doesnt reflect well Imo

Strange that the stoops are falling over themselves to join FF & FG I would always thought that Labour wudda been more natural bedfellows. But on the other hand it was a badly kept secret that SDLPs position on the left was more a hangover from their foundation and not reflective of the present day middle class base.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Walter Cronc on March 05, 2019, 08:29:41 AM
Surely more middle class nationalists support SF than SDLP?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: thewobbler on March 05, 2019, 08:45:16 AM
Surely more middle class nationalists support SF than SDLP?

Probably true of the  midde class nationalists who can be arsed to vote.

Which is the same thing, I suppose.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on March 05, 2019, 10:04:20 AM
This is bad news for SDLP. Who knows where they go from here. They should've just bit the bullet and threw all in with FF. At this rate there'll be nothing left for FF to take over.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on March 05, 2019, 10:23:00 AM
This is bad news for SDLP. Who knows where they go from here. They should've just bit the bullet and threw all in with FF. At this rate there'll be nothing left for FF to take over.
I once would have advocated FF standing in the North and would under Bertie's leadership have voted for them. But Martin's constant anti Nordie SF sniping is a turn off.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: nrico2006 on March 05, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
The SDLP seem to have more issues with SF than any other party.  Daniel McCrossan's life seems to be about slabbering as much as he can about SF.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: yellowcard on March 05, 2019, 10:54:53 AM
It's also a 2 fingered salute from Durkan to Colm Eastwood so soon after the official link up with FF. Their perceived sister party was Labour, they formed a recent alliance with FF and now their former leader has thrown in his lot with FG. Hanna and Durkan's defections have meant that it has been a bad few weeks for SDLP. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on March 05, 2019, 10:59:26 AM
Councillor Cahill on Lisburn Council is another one seemingly without a clue as to what party she wants to affiliate to.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LeoMc on March 05, 2019, 11:04:02 AM
It's also a 2 fingered salute from Durkan to Colm Eastwood so soon after the official link up with FF. Their perceived sister party was Labour, they formed a recent alliance with FF and now their former leader has thrown in his lot with FG. Hanna and Durkan's defections have meant that it has been a bad few weeks for SDLP.
I heard it described as Eastwood and Mallons link up with FF on the radio, Was Nicola Mallon a prominent supporter of it? I always considered her and Hanna as 2 of their better performers so to see of them going off in differing directions can only weaken them.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 05, 2019, 11:24:19 AM
It's also a 2 fingered salute from Durkan to Colm Eastwood so soon after the official link up with FF. Their perceived sister party was Labour, they formed a recent alliance with FF and now their former leader has thrown in his lot with FG. Hanna and Durkan's defections have meant that it has been a bad few weeks for SDLP.
I heard it described as Eastwood and Mallons link up with FF on the radio, Was Nicola Mallon a prominent supporter of it? I always considered her and Hanna as 2 of their better performers so to see of them going off in differing directions can only weaken them.

Mallon has the best record of any MLA of working on social issues and achieving something for mostly her N.Belfast constituents but for all in relation to the welfare reforms handed by SF to the Tories to implement. Therefore, it was a shock that she would be alongside Eastwood in moving to FF.

SDLP has always had its FF, FG and Labour factions.  By forcing through the FF alliance, Eastwood has opened up these fissures in the party and is prepared to allow them to grow in return for FF money to keep his party afloat.  The loss of the 3 WM seats meant that income was severely reduced and would mean that a party machine without a grass roots base of volunteers could no longer compete with the other NI parties. Durkan's move will allow the merger/takeover to happen faster than planned.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on March 05, 2019, 11:37:58 AM
It's also a 2 fingered salute from Durkan to Colm Eastwood so soon after the official link up with FF. Their perceived sister party was Labour, they formed a recent alliance with FF and now their former leader has thrown in his lot with FG. Hanna and Durkan's defections have meant that it has been a bad few weeks for SDLP.
I heard it described as Eastwood and Mallons link up with FF on the radio, Was Nicola Mallon a prominent supporter of it? I always considered her and Hanna as 2 of their better performers so to see of them going off in differing directions can only weaken them.

Mallon has the best record of any MLA of working on social issues and achieving something for mostly her N.Belfast constituents but for all in relation to the welfare reforms handed by SF to the Tories to implement. Therefore, it was a shock that she would be alongside Eastwood in moving to FF.

SDLP has always had its FF, FG and Labour factions.  By forcing through the FF alliance, Eastwood has opened up these fissures in the party and is prepared to allow them to grow in return for FF money to keep his party afloat.  The loss of the 3 WM seats meant that income was severely reduced and would mean that a party machine without a grass roots base of volunteers could no longer compete with the other NI parties. Durkan's move will allow the merger/takeover to happen faster than planned.

To my knowledge that is inaccurate. The party has plenty of money. This linkup was about political profile.
Nicola Mallon was central to this link up as deputy leader.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on March 05, 2019, 12:07:21 PM
The SDLP seem to have more issues with SF than any other party.  Daniel McCrossan's life seems to be about slabbering as much as he can about SF.

He's a joke. He must have got a dig from a shinner on the football pitch growing up. It's the only explanation for the chip on his shoulder.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 05, 2019, 02:09:46 PM
To my knowledge that is inaccurate. The party has plenty of money. This linkup was about political profile.
Nicola Mallon was central to this link up as deputy leader.

Nonsense, SDLP is on its knees when it comes to money.  Donations are so far behind all other parties and they are dependent on expenses from Stormont which are much reduced:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans
 (https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans)
To run a modern election, money is everything.  FF brings that resource.

Just because you are deputy leader does not mean you cannot think for yourself or stay true to your principles.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on March 05, 2019, 02:12:36 PM
Their expenses are nearly the same (with one exception), it's their salaries that have been cut.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on March 05, 2019, 03:03:26 PM
To my knowledge that is inaccurate. The party has plenty of money. This linkup was about political profile.
Nicola Mallon was central to this link up as deputy leader.

Nonsense, SDLP is on its knees when it comes to money.  Donations are so far behind all other parties and they are dependent on expenses from Stormont which are much reduced:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans
 (https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans)
To run a modern election, money is everything.  FF brings that resource.

Just because you are deputy leader does not mean you cannot think for yourself or stay true to your principles.

OK you seem to know it all.  ;)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owen Brannigan on March 05, 2019, 03:18:10 PM
To my knowledge that is inaccurate. The party has plenty of money. This linkup was about political profile.
Nicola Mallon was central to this link up as deputy leader.

Nonsense, SDLP is on its knees when it comes to money.  Donations are so far behind all other parties and they are dependent on expenses from Stormont which are much reduced:

https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans
 (https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/find-information-by-subject/political-parties-campaigning-and-donations/donations-and-loans-to-political-parties/quarterly-donations-and-loans)
To run a modern election, money is everything.  FF brings that resource.

Just because you are deputy leader does not mean you cannot think for yourself or stay true to your principles.

OK you seem to know it all.  ;)

Just factual.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on June 26, 2019, 01:05:37 PM
Ivan Cooper: Northern Ireland civil rights leader dies
One of Northern Ireland's best-known civil rights leaders, Ivan Cooper, has died aged 75.

Obituary - Ivan Cooper
Mr Cooper was one of the leaders of the civil rights march in Londonderry in 1972 that ended in 13 people being shot dead on Bloody Sunday.

He was a founding member of the Social Democratic and Labour Party (SDLP) and played a major role in the Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association.

SDLP leader Colum Eastwood said he was "born to break the mould".

Mr Cooper was born into a working-class Protestant and unionist family in Killaloo, County Londonderry, in January 1944.

He was briefly involved in unionist politics before later becoming involved with the civil rights movement and with constitutional nationalism.

'Driving ambition'
Mr Eastwood said Mr Cooper "embodied the contrasting traditions of this island".

"A working class Protestant man who saw a common injustice and inequality that had taken root in Protestant and Catholic communities, he dedicated his life to fighting it," he said.

"As an early leader in the civil rights movement, few have contributed as much to peace and equality on this island than Ivan.

"Alongside his close friend John Hume, he helped blaze the trail on the path that led to the Good Friday Agreement."
As violence escalated in Northern Ireland, Mr Cooper remained involved in constitutional nationalism, becoming a Stormont MP and eventually community relations minister in the power-sharing executive at Stormont in 1974.

That power-sharing arrangement between nationalists and moderate unionists was brought down by the Ulster Workers' Council strike, supported by the muscle of loyalist paramilitaries like the Ulster Defence Association.

He left active politics in 1983 and went on to work as an insolvency consultant in Derry.
In a statement on behalf of former SDLP leader John Hume, his wife Pat Hume said: "We are deeply saddened to learn of the death of our dear friend Ivan Cooper.

"Ivan and John walked side by side, hand in hand, in their shared desire for equality, justice and peace in Ireland.

"Ivan was the embodiment of the non-violent and non-sectarian movement for change that was the campaign for civil rights."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-45049734 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-foyle-west-45049734)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on September 10, 2019, 03:44:21 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on September 10, 2019, 04:24:15 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: charlieTully on September 10, 2019, 04:24:45 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

the SDLP are not Irish nationalists, they take an oath of allegiance to lizzy windsor and doth the cap to their english overlords in Westminster.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jim Bob on September 10, 2019, 05:08:26 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

 HTF can any nationalist administer British Rule in Ireland , dine with the Queen etc etc
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 10, 2019, 05:14:01 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

the SDLP are not Irish nationalists, they take an oath of an allegiance to lizzy windsor and doth the cap to their english overlords in Westminster.

In that case you'd better take down Parnell's statue from O'Connell St and rename it back to Sackville St.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 10, 2019, 05:33:29 PM
OK, it's about time this was brought to a head on here...

Can someone point out to me an authoritative link on the internet that clearly defines whom or what an Irish nationalist is, or indeed what is considered to be a baseline as to whom can be labelled "Irish" and those that can't?
Otherwise, can someone give a list of bullet points of what the criteria should be along with an explanation for each one as to why it is the case and if necessary why it is unique to Irish nationalism as opposed to other forms of nationalism in Europe or elsewhere.
The last bit there is important IMHO, as if someone can't be an Irish nationalist because they take up a seat at either house in Westminster, does the same criteria apply to those affiliated to the SNP or Plaid Cymru for Scottish and Welsh nationalism respectively?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jim Bob on September 10, 2019, 05:49:38 PM
OK, it's about time this was brought to a head on here...

Can someone point out to me an authoritative link on the internet that clearly defines whom or what an Irish nationalist is, or indeed what is considered to be a baseline as to whom can be labelled "Irish" and those that can't?
Otherwise, can someone give a list of bullet points of what the criteria should be along with an explanation for each one as to why it is the case and if necessary why it is unique to Irish nationalism as opposed to other forms of nationalism in Europe or elsewhere.
The last bit there is important IMHO, as if someone can't be an Irish nationalist because they take up a seat at either house in Westminster, does the same criteria apply to those affiliated to the SNP or Plaid Cymru for Scottish and Welsh nationalism respectively?

Some people would have it you  weren't an Irishman if you criticised the Provisional IRA
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: omaghjoe on September 10, 2019, 05:52:59 PM
OK, it's about time this was brought to a head on here...

Can someone point out to me an authoritative link on the internet that clearly defines whom or what an Irish nationalist is, or indeed what is considered to be a baseline as to whom can be labelled "Irish" and those that can't?
Otherwise, can someone give a list of bullet points of what the criteria should be along with an explanation for each one as to why it is the case and if necessary why it is unique to Irish nationalism as opposed to other forms of nationalism in Europe or elsewhere.
The last bit there is important IMHO, as if someone can't be an Irish nationalist because they take up a seat at either house in Westminster, does the same criteria apply to those affiliated to the SNP or Plaid Cymru for Scottish and Welsh nationalism respectively?

Might be slightly different as in their current vision of sovereign Independence  they envisage the crown as the head of state
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on September 10, 2019, 06:28:29 PM
Might be slightly different as in their current vision of sovereign Independence  they envisage the crown as the head of state

Definitely a good point. Worth remembering that the current Queen Elizabeth II is a separate monarch for both England and Scotland concurrently, so even in a scenario of Scottish independence being declared & recognised, there's no necessary constitutional crises for Scotland as she'd (or her successor) would remain the Scottish monarch. Of course that does not in itself mean that there are no supporters in the SNP of an independent Scottish Republic. Wales is a little more complicated given it was a principality, but essentially it joined the lineage of the English crown, so very much like Scotland in that regard except perhaps she wouldn't be seen as a Monarch but more similar to the titles she has in the Isle of Man or Guernsey or Jersey.

And that nicely brings it back to the origins of Sinn Fein under its founding by Arthur Griffith, whom originally proposed a relationship between Ireland and Britain similar to that of the then present Austria-Hungary regarding a single monarch. Of course, later on Sinn Fein made a decisive decision to establish an independent Ireland as a republic. While today the Republic of Ireland does not have any serious persons or groups arguing for the abandonment of a Republic state, it was a more open position to have at one time in the late 19th & early 20th centuries.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on September 10, 2019, 07:21:20 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Presumably Baroness O'Loan had already been peddlng an SDLP type line in the Lords, given her connections?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on September 11, 2019, 08:50:01 AM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

What a truly awful comment.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on September 11, 2019, 09:12:22 AM
I never actually knew the SDLP abstained from the house of lords. Why hasn't this been thrown at them before?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on September 11, 2019, 09:34:01 AM
I never actually knew the SDLP abstained from the house of lords. Why hasn't this been thrown at them before?

Because they don't abstain. They don't accept peerages (rightly in my view) to an unelected house. That's the difference.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on September 11, 2019, 10:17:12 AM
I never actually knew the SDLP abstained from the house of lords. Why hasn't this been thrown at them before?

Because they don't abstain. They don't accept peerages (rightly in my view) to an unelected house. That's the difference.

So instead of entering a house in parliament and representing Irish nationalism, giving us a voice, they choose not to as a matter of principle?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on September 11, 2019, 10:30:01 AM
I never actually knew the SDLP abstained from the house of lords. Why hasn't this been thrown at them before?

Because they don't abstain. They don't accept peerages (rightly in my view) to an unelected house. That's the difference.

So instead of entering a house in parliament and representing Irish nationalism, giving us a voice, they choose not to as a matter of principle?

No, they don't accept peerages. So they can't enter the HOL. Now if they accepted the peerage and then didn't turn up, that would be abstaining.
Hope that clears that up for you.


Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on September 11, 2019, 11:07:13 AM
Typical stoop. Won't seek election to the Dáil but happy to take a Tory granted title and seat in a House of Lords that she herself long described as an "anachronistic institution".

Some record for SDLP leaders:

Gerry Fitt - Joined the House of Lords and became 'Barron Fitt of Bell's Hill'.
Mark Duran - Left to join the conservative FG.
Margaret Ritchie - Announced she was "delighted" to accept a Tory bestowed peerage (she has yet to choose where she wants to become 'Baroness' of, for her title)
Alasdair McDonnell - Attempted to forge links with the right wing PD's and regularly invited the right-wing, borderline racist Michael McDowell to canvass with him.
Colm Eastwood - Forged an "alliance" with Fianna Fáil - a conservative party led by a dyed-in-the-wool partitionist.

Some nationalists!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on September 11, 2019, 11:17:21 AM
Do you have to be a loony leftie to qualify as a "nationalist"??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Itchy on September 11, 2019, 11:21:41 AM
Do you have to be a loony leftie to qualify as a "nationalist"??

SDLP = Socialist Democratic Labour Party

From their website...

As the party of civil rights, the SDLP is working for an Ireland free from poverty, prejudice and injustice; a vibrant country of energy, enterprise and endeavour, where economic prosperity delivers better public services and greater opportunities for all

So they are a left wing party.

So if you are in that party and decide to become a Lord or join a right wing party somewhere else, I think it is fair to call that person as a hypocrite. Nothing to do with being a loony leftie.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: general_lee on September 11, 2019, 11:24:18 AM
Do you have to be a loony leftie to qualify as a "nationalist"??
f**k me. Any “nationalist” that joins the House of Lords will rightfully have their credentials questioned.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on September 11, 2019, 12:09:16 PM
The point made was that some SDLP people joined FG or were consorting with FF who are both right wing and therefore couldn't be called "nationalist".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: general_lee on September 11, 2019, 12:17:41 PM
The point made was that some SDLP people joined FG or were consorting with FF who are both right wing and therefore couldn't be called "nationalist".
To be fair they may as well just join the UUP in the north
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on September 11, 2019, 12:39:37 PM
Nothing the stoops do would surprise me.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: red hander on September 11, 2019, 01:02:05 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on September 11, 2019, 01:17:30 PM
I eagerly await her advocating for Irish unity in the House of lords.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on September 11, 2019, 02:55:09 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off

Three hundred quid a day, just for turning up + Assembly pension. There's a good living to be made out of it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on September 13, 2019, 11:00:24 PM
To me any right thinking Irish Nationalist could not on principle take an oath to s foreign state or head of state. I know Margaret, not well but still. I can not fathom why she has sold out. I support SF and their abstention policy.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on September 13, 2019, 11:22:18 PM
Didn't SDLP MPs take their Commons seats and that Oath for years?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on September 13, 2019, 11:44:15 PM
To me any right thinking Irish Nationalist could not on principle take an oath to s foreign state or head of state. I know Margaret, not well but still. I can not fathom why she has sold out. I support SF and their abstention policy.
Not that I disagree with you but this is a Custer’s last stand. For 30 years, Sinn Féin have been masters in making even the most unpalatable acts political successes for “Irish Nationalists”. They get a kick back calling them sell outs and then their PR operation kicks in and suddenly shaking the queen’s hand is actually what the war was about achieving.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jim Bob on September 14, 2019, 12:17:26 AM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off

And when Martin dined with Mrs Windsor and the Chief off Staff of the Parachute regiment your thoughts were...........?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Orior on September 14, 2019, 05:23:49 AM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off

And when Martin dined with Mrs Windsor and the Chief off Staff of the Parachute regiment your thoughts were...........?

Keep your enemies close?

I hope she will be a strong voice for us Irish living in the six counties occupied by the British, unlike Gerry Fitt
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: currychip on September 14, 2019, 07:15:14 AM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off


Hardly typical.  Second in nearly 50 years to go to the HoL.  I'd presume many more were offered.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on September 14, 2019, 09:06:02 AM
suddenly shaking the queen’s hand is actually what the war was about achieving.
Shaking someone's hand in a spirit of reconciliation and "moving on" is a bit different than swearing allegiance.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on September 14, 2019, 09:14:54 AM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off


Hardly typical.  Second in nearly 50 years to go to the HoL.  I'd presume many more were offered.

There were indeed sdlp members offered over the years, but they choose to abstain from this house of parliament and not represent Irish nationalism.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jim Bob on September 14, 2019, 01:47:11 PM
Margaret Ritchie to enter the lords. Jesus wept, I know the SDLP are sore at having no MP's and I know that she has technically resigned. But HTF on principle can any Irish Nationalist join the lords?

Hardly a surprise;




Margaret still taking the soup.

Typical stoop. Brits wave a wee bauble or bit of ermine their way and they're bowing and scraping. A failed politician who claims she will represent nationakists in Lords. She can fcuk right off

And when Martin dined with Mrs Windsor and the Chief off Staff of the Parachute regiment your thoughts were...........?

Keep your enemies close?


Ah Jaysus. I‘ve  heard some good excuses in my day but that one takes the biccie
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Seany on September 15, 2019, 09:53:09 AM
There is a massive difference between Martin McGuinness going toWIndsor Castle/Meeting the Queen and Margaret Ritchie going to the Lords.
Martin McGuinness had absolutely nothing whatsoever to gain personally from doing what he did. In fact, he had a lot to lose within his own constituency of The Creggan and the Bogside. He did it because he took his role as DFM very seriously and genuinely wanted to undertake confidence building measures to sustain the peace process. This, like many other risks he took were not reciprocated by the DUP and so the Assembly fell.

Margaret Ritchie going to the Lords - Money, red leather and the nice feel of ermine. Same as Austin Currie who went to FG, Mark Durkan who did the same and Gerry Fitt.

 I cannot think of one cause, d’écrire or need within Ireland that could be advanced by her heading to the House of Lords. It is an even more ridiculous place than the House of Commons.   

Durkan adored the pomp and ceremony of Westminster. He fully embraced it. Got involved in the minutiae of legislation and was apparently ‘a great parliamentarian’.  He is an exceptionally able man, granted.





Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on September 17, 2019, 10:55:35 AM
To me any right thinking Irish Nationalist could not on principle take an oath to s foreign state or head of state. I know Margaret, not well but still. I can not fathom why she has sold out. I support SF and their abstention policy.
Not that I disagree with you but this is a Custer’s last stand. For 30 years, Sinn Féin have been masters in making even the most unpalatable acts political successes for “Irish Nationalists”. They get a kick back calling them sell outs and then their PR operation kicks in and suddenly shaking the queen’s hand is actually what the war was about achieving.
I've no problem with SF putting out the hand of friendship to the Royals, friends and neighbours hold them dear. I don't believe as a nationalist on principle you can take an oath to a foreign state/monarch. So I do support the abstention. There is also much that SF do that I don't agree with, the SDLP though provide no alternative.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on September 17, 2019, 01:42:44 PM
Margaret Ritchie going to the Lords - Money, red leather and the nice feel of ermine. Same as Austin Currie who went to FG, Mark Durkan who did the same and Gerry Fitt.

So you are comparing joining an unelected body in Britain with standing for election in a different part of Ireland?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 17, 2019, 04:02:38 PM
To me any right thinking Irish Nationalist could not on principle take an oath to s foreign state or head of state. I know Margaret, not well but still. I can not fathom why she has sold out. I support SF and their abstention policy.
Not that I disagree with you but this is a Custer’s last stand. For 30 years, Sinn Féin have been masters in making even the most unpalatable acts political successes for “Irish Nationalists”. They get a kick back calling them sell outs and then their PR operation kicks in and suddenly shaking the queen’s hand is actually what the war was about achieving.
I've no problem with SF putting out the hand of friendship to the Royals, friends and neighbours hold them dear. I don't believe as a nationalist on principle you can take an oath to a foreign state/monarch. So I do support the abstention. There is also much that SF do that I don't agree with, the SDLP though provide no alternative.

What of Parnell? What of O'Connell?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on September 17, 2019, 04:12:45 PM
To me any right thinking Irish Nationalist could not on principle take an oath to s foreign state or head of state. I know Margaret, not well but still. I can not fathom why she has sold out. I support SF and their abstention policy.
Not that I disagree with you but this is a Custer’s last stand. For 30 years, Sinn Féin have been masters in making even the most unpalatable acts political successes for “Irish Nationalists”. They get a kick back calling them sell outs and then their PR operation kicks in and suddenly shaking the queen’s hand is actually what the war was about achieving.
I've no problem with SF putting out the hand of friendship to the Royals, friends and neighbours hold them dear. I don't believe as a nationalist on principle you can take an oath to a foreign state/monarch. So I do support the abstention. There is also much that SF do that I don't agree with, the SDLP though provide no alternative.

What of Parnell? What of O'Connell?
Same, but that said I suppose the dynamic then was slightly different in that they didn't necessarily want to leave the empire.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Wildweasel74 on September 17, 2019, 09:16:23 PM
Still take the money though, at the end of the day, gonna show principles go the full nine yards. Not we not going to Westminster but please give us the money!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Owenmoresider on September 18, 2019, 09:37:27 AM
Still take the money though, at the end of the day, gonna show principles go the full nine yards. Not we not going to Westminster but please give us the money!!
And there was a time when SF wouldn't sit in Stormont or Leinster House either, but those principles were jettisoned by them over time.

Anyway the posts by Shinner heads here conform to type, everything their guys do is right, anything the SDLP does is wrong. So predictable.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on September 18, 2019, 09:46:58 AM
Still take the money though, at the end of the day, gonna show principles go the full nine yards. Not we not going to Westminster but please give us the money!!
And there was a time when SF wouldn't sit in Stormont or Leinster House either, but those principles were jettisoned by them over time.

Anyway the posts by Shinner heads here conform to type, everything their guys do is right, anything the SDLP does is wrong. So predictable.

You haven't the slightest clue what you're talking about.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on September 18, 2019, 10:56:49 AM
Still take the money though, at the end of the day, gonna show principles go the full nine yards. Not we not going to Westminster but please give us the money!!
And there was a time when SF wouldn't sit in Stormont or Leinster House either, but those principles were jettisoned by them over time.

Stormont and the Dáil don't require you to take an oath of allegiance to a foreign Head of State.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on December 19, 2019, 11:01:11 AM
Mark H Durkan on GMU this morning blaming everything on the DUP and SF re the collapse of Stormont, unchallenged as usual. So we can take it from this that the SDLP don't care about the Irish language, equal marriage or women's rights. They don't care about RHI, Red Sky or luxury holidays. SF should suck it up and go back into government with out any agreement on these issues from the DUP whom we should trust implicitly. Just when Eastwood convinces me that the SDLP may be worth considering Durkan opens his trap abut the Shinners. Many nationalist voters are sick of the ongoing sniping from both SDLP and SF especially on issue of identity and culture, unionists what ever their disagreements come together to oppose things like the Irish Language, but no not the SDLP/SF. Both parties need to take a long hard look at some of the clowns in their midst.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on December 19, 2019, 11:18:56 AM
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/politics/general-election-2019/sdlps-claire-hanna-lodges-respectful-protest-over-pledge-to-queen-in-commons-38796681.html

Ms Hanna wrote to Speaker Sir Lindsay Hoyle to raise concerns about the pledge required by politicians before they can take their seats in the House of Commons.

MPs are required by law to make an oath or affirmation of allegiance to the Crown and are not allowed to speak in debates, vote or receive their salary until they do so.

Some SNP MPs also stressed they were making the pledge in order to serve their constituents.

Ms Hanna, the new SDLP MP for Belfast South, opted to affirm before outlining her reasons for doing so.

Speaking in the Commons, she said: "I do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors, according to law."

Ms Hanna added: "My allegiance is to the people of South Belfast in order to serve them.

"I've made this affirmation. My political commitment is to the Good Friday Agreement, relationships in Northern Ireland, between north and south of Ireland and between these islands based on mutual respect and co-operation."


In a letter to Sir Lindsay, the MP said: "I submit this letter to you to register a respectful protest against the requirement that I make a statement of allegiance to the Crown as a precondition for taking my seat.

"I chose an affirmation rather than an oath, but the words do not reflect my outlook."

After reiterating her commitment to the Good Friday Agreement, she added: "I do not believe it serves trust in Parliament for MPs to be obliged to rehearse pledges that are not true for them.

"I believe a better pledge would be one to parliamentary service on behalf of our constituents, with an allegiance pledge for those who wish to make one."

The SNP's Gavin Newlands (Paisley and Renfrewshire North) said he was affirming in order to "serve my constituents".

His party colleague Mhairi Black said her allegiance is "first and foremost" to her Paisley and Renfrewshire South constituents and she was making the pledge "for the purpose of the job".

Anne McLaughlin, also from the SNP, said her "primary allegiance is to the people of Glasgow North East and the people of Scotland".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on December 19, 2019, 11:27:25 AM
Mark H Durkan on GMU this morning blaming everything on the DUP and SF re the collapse of Stormont, unchallenged as usual. So we can take it from this that the SDLP don't care about the Irish language, equal marriage or women's rights. They don't care about RHI, Red Sky or luxury holidays. SF should suck it up and go back into government with out any agreement on these issues from the DUP whom we should trust implicitly. Just when Eastwood convinces me that the SDLP may be worth considering Durkan opens his trap abut the Shinners. Many nationalist voters are sick of the ongoing sniping from both SDLP and SF especially on issue of identity and culture, unionists what ever their disagreements come together to oppose things like the Irish Language, but no not the SDLP/SF. Both parties need to take a long hard look at some of the clowns in their midst.

SF were willing to go back into the executive without SSM and abortion rights resolved. So to hold them up as the custodians of equality and Irishness is a bit rich.
And therein lies the problem. If SF go back without an ILA people will rightly ask what was the last 3 years about? If the DUP do likewise they will be asked why didn't they agree to this 3 years ago? It's a mess of both parties making. It will be interesting to see the spin when they do actually go back in the NY as is looking likely.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on December 19, 2019, 11:35:37 AM
Mark H Durkan on GMU this morning blaming everything on the DUP and SF re the collapse of Stormont, unchallenged as usual. So we can take it from this that the SDLP don't care about the Irish language, equal marriage or women's rights. They don't care about RHI, Red Sky or luxury holidays. SF should suck it up and go back into government with out any agreement on these issues from the DUP whom we should trust implicitly. Just when Eastwood convinces me that the SDLP may be worth considering Durkan opens his trap abut the Shinners. Many nationalist voters are sick of the ongoing sniping from both SDLP and SF especially on issue of identity and culture, unionists what ever their disagreements come together to oppose things like the Irish Language, but no not the SDLP/SF. Both parties need to take a long hard look at some of the clowns in their midst.

SF were willing to go back into the executive without SSM and abortion rights resolved. So to hold them up as the custodians of equality and Irishness is a bit rich.
And therein lies the problem. If SF go back without an ILA people will rightly ask what was the last 3 years about? If the DUP do likewise they will be asked why didn't they agree to this 3 years ago? It's a mess of both parties making. It will be interesting to see the spin when they do actually go back in the NY as is looking likely.
I'm not defending SF position, expressing my exasperation at the playing of party politics on both sides when a unified approach would give both parties cover and a stronger hand. Neither party serving nationalists well imo.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 19, 2019, 01:46:58 PM
Mark H Durkan on GMU this morning blaming everything on the DUP and SF re the collapse of Stormont, unchallenged as usual. So we can take it from this that the SDLP don't care about the Irish language, equal marriage or women's rights. They don't care about RHI, Red Sky or luxury holidays. SF should suck it up and go back into government with out any agreement on these issues from the DUP whom we should trust implicitly. Just when Eastwood convinces me that the SDLP may be worth considering Durkan opens his trap abut the Shinners. Many nationalist voters are sick of the ongoing sniping from both SDLP and SF especially on issue of identity and culture, unionists what ever their disagreements come together to oppose things like the Irish Language, but no not the SDLP/SF. Both parties need to take a long hard look at some of the clowns in their midst.

At least they aren't doing a Raymond McCartney
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 19, 2019, 09:07:13 PM
Mark H Durkan on GMU this morning blaming everything on the DUP and SF re the collapse of Stormont, unchallenged as usual. So we can take it from this that the SDLP don't care about the Irish language, equal marriage or women's rights. They don't care about RHI, Red Sky or luxury holidays. SF should suck it up and go back into government with out any agreement on these issues from the DUP whom we should trust implicitly. Just when Eastwood convinces me that the SDLP may be worth considering Durkan opens his trap abut the Shinners. Many nationalist voters are sick of the ongoing sniping from both SDLP and SF especially on issue of identity and culture, unionists what ever their disagreements come together to oppose things like the Irish Language, but no not the SDLP/SF. Both parties need to take a long hard look at some of the clowns in their midst.

SF were willing to go back into the executive without SSM and abortion rights resolved. So to hold them up as the custodians of equality and Irishness is a bit rich.
And therein lies the problem. If SF go back without an ILA people will rightly ask what was the last 3 years about? If the DUP do likewise they will be asked why didn't they agree to this 3 years ago? It's a mess of both parties making. It will be interesting to see the spin when they do actually go back in the NY as is looking likely.

Sos seems to be putting the blame on DUP now but SDLap will snipe from the sidelines - what's their take on ILA?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 19, 2019, 09:14:29 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on December 19, 2019, 10:00:22 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.
100% correct and if you aren’t black, why would you give a shite about the racial discrimination of black people.
I’m not a nurse either, so fcuk their pay rise.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 19, 2019, 10:09:15 PM
Cupla focal act anois.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 19, 2019, 11:07:10 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: screenexile on December 20, 2019, 09:40:16 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on December 20, 2019, 09:52:49 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!
Ah christ it wasn't just the IL act, DUP were acting and treating SF and nationalists as white trash, this state is officially mono cultural. It is vital to sort health and education but the DUP need to embrace equality.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: BenDover on December 20, 2019, 09:53:03 AM
Looks like an ILA has been sorted and the main sticking point now is the DUP veto with POC powers or they're bringing the proposals back to Jamie and his muckers for their thoughts
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trileacman on December 20, 2019, 09:58:25 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.
100% correct and if you aren’t black, why would you give a shite about the racial discrimination of black people.
I’m not a nurse either, so fcuk their pay rise.

Equating the converting of government documents to irish with struggling to pay your mortgage or the systematic discrimination because of race is pure bullshit and you know it.

By such an argument I could equate the importance of the Irish language act with Brexit or Scottish independence.

It’s the “piss off the prods” bill pure and simple.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: tbrick18 on December 20, 2019, 10:29:39 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!
Ah christ it wasn't just the IL act, DUP were acting and treating SF and nationalists as white trash, this state is officially mono cultural. It is vital to sort health and education but the DUP need to embrace equality.

Yeah I'd agree with this. The removal of funding for an Irish language scheme was the straw that broke the camel's back with SF and it showed the complete lack of respect the DUP had for any Irish culture.
Whilst the ILA may seem like a nothing to some people, it forces the DUP to give respect to Irish Culture and is part of the bigger picture of equality. DUP are very good at calling out the erosion of their culture, but in this instance they blatantly tried to erode Irish culture and I for one would be all for putting legislation in place that stops them doing this again.
The Petition of Concern is the big ticket item though. I don't know the mechanics of it, other than the DUP have been able to use it to veto anything they didn't like (SF have too, but not to the same extent) and could basically ride rough shod over democratic votes or even stop votes from happening.
With the evening up of the demographic of polititions here, perhaps the POC could be scrapped altogether? If it was, then things like ILA could be brought up as a bill in the Assembly at any time and voted on in a fair and balanced way without fear of a veto.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 20, 2019, 11:06:28 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!

The collapse of the Executive had as much to do with RHI as anything else. However, the restoration of the Executive is being based on completing the elements in the St Andrew's Agreement. Twelve years was long enough to do that. You can't have agreements made and then ignored indefinitely, what would be the point of making such agreements?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on December 20, 2019, 11:44:34 AM
I think there should be an Irish language act. But elevating it above peoples health and children's education is too much. SF and The DUP are in a mess of their own making. Stormont was a carve up years before it collapsed. When the SDLP, UUP and Alliance pulled out of the executive thus leaving the big two exposed it was no surprise that it collapsed in months. They had no cover. M'oM couldnt even get a budget together. Incompetence and unelected SPADs were running the show.

So yes RHI and equality rights are issues that need resolved but how these two function in government is the real problem that needs resolved.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 20, 2019, 11:54:57 AM
I think there should be an Irish language act. But elevating it above peoples health and children's education is too much.

Of course, as long as you recognise that it is the DUP who is the block here.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on December 20, 2019, 11:55:33 AM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.
100% correct and if you aren’t black, why would you give a shite about the racial discrimination of black people.
I’m not a nurse either, so fcuk their pay rise.

Equating the converting of government documents to irish with struggling to pay your mortgage or the systematic discrimination because of race is pure bullshit and you know it.

By such an argument I could equate the importance of the Irish language act with Brexit or Scottish independence.

It’s the “piss off the prods” bill pure and simple.
I wasn’t equating those things and you know it.
Not having knowledge of a language doesn’t exclude you from supporting the rights of those who do, as he was suggesting.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on December 20, 2019, 12:40:35 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.
100% correct and if you aren’t black, why would you give a shite about the racial discrimination of black people.
I’m not a nurse either, so fcuk their pay rise.

Equating the converting of government documents to irish with struggling to pay your mortgage or the systematic discrimination because of race is pure bullshit and you know it.

By such an argument I could equate the importance of the Irish language act with Brexit or Scottish independence.

It’s the “piss off the prods” bill pure and simple.
I wasn’t equating those things and you know it.
Not having knowledge of a language doesn’t exclude you from supporting the rights of those who do, as he was suggesting.
Not to forget SF were under pressure from their own constituency on the IL, that pressure has switched to health but its not one or the other.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on December 20, 2019, 12:42:30 PM
Bryson has just tweeted that any irish word spoken is like a bullet fired for Irish Freedom.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Ambrose on December 20, 2019, 01:30:17 PM
Bryson has just tweeted that any irish word spoken is like a bullet fired for Irish Freedom.

He's also calling for a rerun in north Belfast and FST. You'd miss Willie.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 20, 2019, 01:30:35 PM
Bryson has just tweeted that any irish word spoken is like a bullet fired for Irish Freedom.

For sh*ts and giggles it would be a nice idea to address him on Twitter as "Seamus O'Brisleain"
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 20, 2019, 01:48:21 PM
Bryson has just tweeted that any irish word spoken is like a bullet fired for Irish Freedom.

He's also calling for a rerun in north Belfast and FST. You'd miss Willie.

Quite right he has a point - he knows of 22 votes that should have been registered in South Belfast I mean thats the difference right there that makes Claire Hannas 16000 majority look very shaky
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 20, 2019, 02:07:39 PM
Bryson has just tweeted that any irish word spoken is like a bullet fired for Irish Freedom.
He'd better have a focal nó dó with Linda Ervine agus a Gaelgeóiri 😆😃
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 03:29:26 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!

Pure waffle from you - the ILA is about recognition of being Irish in the north.  The English and unionists, by extension, did everything they could to destroy it and wipe it from the island of Ireland and make us all 'little englanders'. 

That's what the Irish Language Act is about - seems you have become 'the little englander', as envisaged by the Sassanaigh.

Plus, at the time, I never heard heard one nationalist complain when the assembly was pulled - the list of Liofa grants, RHI, Red Sky etc. etc. was endless in how the DUP were treating the nationalist people.

The Irish language is 'a hobby' oh my good God. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: screenexile on December 20, 2019, 03:38:43 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!

Pure waffle from you - the ILA is about recognition of being Irish in the north.  The English and unionists, by extension, did everything they could to destroy it and wipe it from the island of Ireland and make us all 'little englanders'. 

That's what the Irish Language Act is about - seems you have become 'the little englander', as envisaged by the Sassanaigh.

Plus, at the time, I never heard heard one nationalist complain when the assembly was pulled - the list of Liofa grants, RHI, Red Sky etc. etc. was endless in how the DUP were treating the nationalist people.

The Irish language is 'a hobby' oh my good God.

Oh no I'm less Irish because you say so ...  :'( Wise up!!

You need recognition of being Irish in the North? Get an Irish Passport/play Irish Music/be involved in the GAA. You can't even speak Irish what the f**k are you on about?

I was OK with the assembly being pulled for the reasons you listed and more. Not an Irish Language Act. That is not the hill to die on.

There is no discernible reason to learn the Irish language other than working for TG4/RNG/working as an Irish teacher. Ergo it is a hobby and while it's nice to know it and history and everything else it shouldn't be holding up pay increases for our Nurses or funding for our schools!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: tonto1888 on December 20, 2019, 05:23:56 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

I would say that is exactly why an ILA is needed
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on December 20, 2019, 05:38:12 PM


There is no discernible reason to learn the Irish language other than working for TG4/RNG/working as an Irish teacher. Ergo it is a hobby and while it's nice to know it and history and everything else it shouldn't be holding up pay increases for our Nurses or funding for our schools!
I agree with half this part of your post (last half) and fundamentally disagree with the other half (first half). Weird.

Stephen Farry spoke a few words as gaeilge in his maiden WM speech there. I believe he  and Chris Hazzard were educated at the same school, so maybe not that surprising.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on December 20, 2019, 06:06:31 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!

Pure waffle from you - the ILA is about recognition of being Irish in the north.  The English and unionists, by extension, did everything they could to destroy it and wipe it from the island of Ireland and make us all 'little englanders'. 

That's what the Irish Language Act is about - seems you have become 'the little englander', as envisaged by the Sassanaigh.

Plus, at the time, I never heard heard one nationalist complain when the assembly was pulled - the list of Liofa grants, RHI, Red Sky etc. etc. was endless in how the DUP were treating the nationalist people.

The Irish language is 'a hobby' oh my good God.

Oh no I'm less Irish because you say so ...  :'( Wise up!!

You need recognition of being Irish in the North? Get an Irish Passport/play Irish Music/be involved in the GAA. You can't even speak Irish what the f**k are you on about?

I was OK with the assembly being pulled for the reasons you listed and more. Not an Irish Language Act. That is not the hill to die on.

There is no discernible reason to learn the Irish language other than working for TG4/RNG/working as an Irish teacher. Ergo it is a hobby and while it's nice to know it and history and everything else it shouldn't be holding up pay increases for our Nurses or funding for our schools!
Irish comes with a huge cultural back catalogue. Ireland is easier to understand with the language. It gets to the places English can’t.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on December 20, 2019, 06:17:42 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

I would say that is exactly why an ILA is needed

People are confused about ILA. It won't increase the numbers learning it.. Its mostly a bereaucratic, governance and regulatory tool. It won't change my life as an irish speaker unfortunately, I just resent how unionists view it in such a sectarian manner
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 20, 2019, 06:17:48 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

I would say that is exactly why an ILA is needed

Tongue in cheek. An ILA would be all fine & dandy. However, it's not in the same league as needing a Fair Employment Act & agency, because Catholics couldn't get a job; having to set up the N Ireland Housing Executive, to remove control of housing from Unionists; ending gerrymandering, which ensured total Unionist control of local government ; dealing with the Unionist government's refusal to fund 100% of building costs for Catholic schools. Those were serious systemic issues, that took years to resolve. The ILA would be a piece of piss, by comparison. No one is stopping Irish medium schools from springing up, as far as I know.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 20, 2019, 06:28:35 PM
Interesting discussion on the Irish Language Act.

Perhaps you might be interested in the perspective of a Unionist (though never a DUPer) who is actually quite handy with foreign languages himself and so reasonably well-disposed to the idea of people learning another language.

First and foremost, SF have devalued the IL by "weaponising" it. That is, they have already gained almost all of what they demanded in return for coming in from the cold at St.Andrews, which gains have served them well at the ballot box. So that by now they're running out of excuses for not just buckling down to the task of providing good government for NI, which itself would constitute a tacit recognition of the state which they dare not make explicitly. (In that sense, I sometimes think we Unionists should call their bluff and just give them the bloody act, and then see what they've got to complain about next);

Two, with the way things are in NI, whenever one tribe declares that they want something, the other tribe is instinctively against it. Or comes up with their own wee makey-uppy version - in this case, Ulster Scots. Such posturing by both sides serves no-one;

Three, it is well known that while some people have a flair for languages, especially when young, nonetheless it is firmly established that anyone can learn any language providing they're sufficiently committed to the task. Therefore it is galling to be lectured on the need for Irish by people who patently couldn't be arsed to learn it for themselves, even when eg they were in prison, and might have been expected to have time on their hands;

Four, the whole point of language - any language - is that it should be a means of communication. Yet in this present context, it is being commandeered by partisan politicians for exactly the opposite purpose i.e. we've got a language that the Prods can't understand. Frankly, that is pathetic (imo).

Finally, I suspect that those people who genuinely love the language for its own sake, its beauty, its poetry and its rich position in the cultural history of this island etc, must despair at the way its being abused (by both sides), but fear to speak out, or get ignored when they do.

So for all those reasons, I believe that the Irish Language should be promoted and supported in schools, arts, festivals and night classes etc, but only in the same way as any other hobby, whether it be Scottish Country dancing, Gaelic games, flute bands or flower arranging.

Then if or when we got to the stage where it was beginning to be revived amongst the wider population (ideally both sides), that is the point at which we should consider making it official/enshrined in law.

Of course, such an event will never come about, not least because rather than getting their head down and actually learning the language, the likes of Gerry Adams prefer instead to just bang on and on about it from a public stage.

In English.  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 20, 2019, 07:41:20 PM
Whether SF have a particular policy on the ILA is neither here nor there, they are not the only people in Northern Ireland, as Stephen Farry's opening words in Westminster showed.
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 08:39:15 PM
Whether SF have a particular policy on the ILA is neither here nor there, they are not the only people in Northern Ireland, as Stephen Farry's opening words in Westminster showed.
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.

Yes, some people here would do away with the Irish language if they got a chance - only a hobby.  Only job you can do is be a teacher etc. etc.  Same people are the biggest GAA people about!!!

The ILA, according to Conradh na Gaeilge and An Dream Dearg etc. is the best way, through the various language experts, to protect minority languages.  It's best practice but it needs to be a stand alone act.

Welsh and the Scots have their own acts and there's not the same uproar. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 08:40:29 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

I would say that is exactly why an ILA is needed

People are confused about ILA. It won't increase the numbers learning it.. Its mostly a bereaucratic, governance and regulatory tool. It won't change my life as an irish speaker unfortunately, I just resent how unionists view it in such a sectarian manner

Agree totally.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 20, 2019, 10:21:10 PM
If all the Irish you know is "Dia duit,  Sinn Fein", "A Chara" & "GRMA", then feck knows why an ILA is needed in the first place.

ILA is not just about the language - it's more important than that.

It's really not!! The Irish language is a hobby and having an Irish Language act serves no real purpose only than to wind up Unionists!

Don't get me wrong I love Irish and was decent at it back in the day but it's nowhere near important enough to be collapsing Government. There are myriad other reasons why the institutions could have been collapsed but an ILA should not have been close to one of them and should not be the stumbling block now to get things up and running again!!

Pure waffle from you - the ILA is about recognition of being Irish in the north.  The English and unionists, by extension, did everything they could to destroy it and wipe it from the island of Ireland and make us all 'little englanders'. 

That's what the Irish Language Act is about - seems you have become 'the little englander', as envisaged by the Sassanaigh.

Plus, at the time, I never heard heard one nationalist complain when the assembly was pulled - the list of Liofa grants, RHI, Red Sky etc. etc. was endless in how the DUP were treating the nationalist people.

The Irish language is 'a hobby' oh my good God.

Oh no I'm less Irish because you say so ...  :'( Wise up!!

You need recognition of being Irish in the North? Get an Irish Passport/play Irish Music/be involved in the GAA. You can't even speak Irish what the f**k are you on about?

I was OK with the assembly being pulled for the reasons you listed and more. Not an Irish Language Act. That is not the hill to die on.

There is no discernible reason to learn the Irish language other than working for TG4/RNG/working as an Irish teacher. Ergo it is a hobby and while it's nice to know it and history and everything else it shouldn't be holding up pay increases for our Nurses or funding for our schools!
[/b]

You sound like my old careers teacher - Irish is no good, a dead language, no future in it etc. etc.

Funding our schools...lol...I take it you don't mean gaelscoileanna...they only teach that old 'hobby' language.

Ironic you're using the name 'screenexile' don't you think?

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 20, 2019, 11:38:37 PM
Marty34,what the extent of your Irish? And what do you think makes you Irish?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bannside on December 21, 2019, 12:16:04 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2019, 12:19:44 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2019, 12:34:26 AM
Hard to be Danish if you can't speak Danish.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2019, 12:41:31 AM
Hard to be Danish if you can't speak Danish.

Same for French
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 21, 2019, 01:11:39 AM
Hard to be Danish if you can't speak Danish.
So what about, say, Austria?

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Dougal Maguire on December 21, 2019, 02:05:44 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Croppy lie down
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 21, 2019, 02:20:08 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Croppy lie down

crystal clear on this board who are the castle catholics/west brits. without our own language we are nothing but serfs
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2019, 08:57:41 AM
Hard to be Danish if you can't speak Danish.
So what about, say, Austria?
Never heard of an Austrian language.
There is a Danish language and an Irish language.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2019, 09:02:25 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Croppy lie down

crystal clear on this board who are the castle catholics/west brits. without our own language we are nothing but serfs

Rubbish, just cause you say it doesn’t make it true. What’s you’re criteria for this castle catholic/West Brit?

Do they have an Irish passport? Do they play GAA? Are they members of the GAA association? Will they vote in favour of a UI in a border poll/ referendum? Or is it all of the above plus a smattering of Irish learnt at school or went to the Gaeltacht?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on December 21, 2019, 09:34:25 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.
The feed of Guinness & Jameson you had before posting this makes you really Irish.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 21, 2019, 10:54:59 AM
Never heard of an Austrian language.
Precisely the point. Many European countries have their borders built around a common or popular language but it is most certainly not a requirement.

Germans and Austrians can easily understand each other, but Austria's national identity doesn't rely on having a unique, distinct national language.

On the other hand, the majority of Swiss people are nominally regarded as speaking German as their first language - but the dialect(s) of "Swiss German" is almost incomprehensible to most other German speakers save for those living near the border with Switzerland - if German or Austrian media are using video or audio of someone speaking Swiss German, most of the time it is subtitled or dubbed. For these reasons, school children in the Swiss German language area are taught "Swiss standard German" as a separate language subject in order to be able to speak to other German speakers at large.

For the record, there is a small ethnic & linguistic German speaking minority in Denmark in the North Schleswig/South Jutland area, though most of them can also speak Danish as a second language. Conversely, there is also a Danish speaking minority in the Schleswig-Holstein state in Germany whom have access to their own schools and community associations, as well as their own political party to represent their interests.

And what about those Indo-European languages that don't lend themselves to a (mostly) monolingual nation, and by & large whose groups of speakers have little or no nationalist movement? The Romansh speakers in Switzerland, Ladin speakers in Italy, Frisians in both the Netherlands & Germany, various dialects of Sami speakers in northern Scandinavia, Galician speakers in Spain, numerous local languages in Russia (Tatar, Bashir etc.) and so on? Then also flip it around with say the significant amount of Hungarian speakers in Slovakia, Serbia & Romania, the German/Alsatian speakers of Alsace/Elass in France, Swedish speakers in Finland, German speakers outside of the main German language area in central & eastern Europe inc. Poland, Romania, Italy, Russia, among others due to historic migration patterns and borders drawn after the endings of battles or wars. None of these linguistic and/or ethnic minorities in another country are generally regarded as fifth columnists because the speak the language of a neighbouring or nearby country, the same way not all monolingustic anglophones in Scotland are freverent supporters of the UK.

TL;DR version - a language can be a backbone to a nation or country, but it is most certainly not a prerequisite - other cultural principles can apply.

So as it stands, the one-upmanship of "No True Irishman" comes up again - funny how the majority of such claim to be inclusive yet give their definition of Irishness based on exclusiveness (which of course never excludes them). Can't have it both ways.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2019, 11:03:07 AM
After Slovakia became independent I heard they passed a law making it a crime to speak Hungarian/Magyar.
I expect/hope that died with EU membership!!.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on December 21, 2019, 12:35:08 PM


 SF have devalued the IL by "weaponising" it.
...

...I suspect that those people who genuinely love the language for its own sake, its beauty, its poetry and its rich position in the cultural history of this island etc, must despair at the way its being abused (by both sides), but fear to speak out, or get ignored when they do...

...So for all those reasons, I believe that the Irish Language should be promoted and supported in schools, arts, festivals and night classes etc, but only in the same way as any other hobby...

Interesting post EG, good to get your view. I agree with much of it, particularly the first two bits I've quoted.
On the third one, I disagree. I studied Irish (and French) to A Level years ago, and have had cause and occasion to speak both since to varying degrees, albeit much of it forgotten.
 I don't think an ILA as currently being discussed should be a priority in law, but formal recognition for the legitimacy of the language is long overdue. Back in the mists of time I applied to a well-regarded London university with Irish as an A Level, but they wouldn't accept it as a qualifying grade. That would have been easily challenged if the language had had official status in law. it makes me wonder on how many other (more important) occasions has the study of this language and its literature been disrespected?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on December 21, 2019, 01:21:13 PM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 21, 2019, 01:34:33 PM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.

Well said HS - this is why they are having great difficulty signing up to a stand alone (ironically the Scots and Welsh have one) ILA.  An Ghaeilge was here long before the OO and it'll be here long after the OO has gone.

As I say, it's not about the Irish language, it's more important in terms of what it's mean - the symbolism of it.  It wouldn't bother me if there is a stand alone US act.

I find it ironic all these GAA heads saying "we don't need it", it's a hobby" and it's a dead language etc."  Who needs enemies when you have 'friends' like these.

Another post - bilingualism is good.  Most children in Europe are bilingual.  Research has proven that bilingual has enormous benefits.  Funny how any gaelscoils have come from demand from working class areas for the most part.  Probably deserves a thread on it own - the advantages of bi-lingualism.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on December 21, 2019, 01:52:30 PM
Never heard of an Austrian language.
Precisely the point. Many European countries have their borders built around a common or popular language but it is most certainly not a requirement.

Germans and Austrians can easily understand each other, but Austria's national identity doesn't rely on having a unique, distinct national language.

On the other hand, the majority of Swiss people are nominally regarded as speaking German as their first language - but the dialect(s) of "Swiss German" is almost incomprehensible to most other German speakers save for those living near the border with Switzerland - if German or Austrian media are using video or audio of someone speaking Swiss German, most of the time it is subtitled or dubbed. For these reasons, school children in the Swiss German language area are taught "Swiss standard German" as a separate language subject in order to be able to speak to other German speakers at large.

For the record, there is a small ethnic & linguistic German speaking minority in Denmark in the North Schleswig/South Jutland area, though most of them can also speak Danish as a second language. Conversely, there is also a Danish speaking minority in the Schleswig-Holstein state in Germany whom have access to their own schools and community associations, as well as their own political party to represent their interests.

And what about those Indo-European languages that don't lend themselves to a (mostly) monolingual nation, and by & large whose groups of speakers have little or no nationalist movement? The Romansh speakers in Switzerland, Ladin speakers in Italy, Frisians in both the Netherlands & Germany, various dialects of Sami speakers in northern Scandinavia, Galician speakers in Spain, numerous local languages in Russia (Tatar, Bashir etc.) and so on? Then also flip it around with say the significant amount of Hungarian speakers in Slovakia, Serbia & Romania, the German/Alsatian speakers of Alsace/Elass in France, Swedish speakers in Finland, German speakers outside of the main German language area in central & eastern Europe inc. Poland, Romania, Italy, Russia, among others due to historic migration patterns and borders drawn after the endings of battles or wars. None of these linguistic and/or ethnic minorities in another country are generally regarded as fifth columnists because the speak the language of a neighbouring or nearby country, the same way not all monolingustic anglophones in Scotland are freverent supporters of the UK.

TL;DR version - a language can be a backbone to a nation or country, but it is most certainly not a prerequisite - other cultural principles can apply.

So as it stands, the one-upmanship of "No True Irishman" comes up again - funny how the majority of such claim to be inclusive yet give their definition of Irishness based on exclusiveness (which of course never excludes them). Can't have it both ways.
That's irrelevant to the situation in Ireland though because the people you have mentioned that speak the minority language (Or variants of the dominant one) are still going to be able to speak the dominant language of the country they're in because it's spoken by everyone, unlike Irish here.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 21, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.

Well said HS - this is why they are having great difficulty signing up to a stand alone (ironically the Scots and Welsh have one) ILA.  An Ghaeilge was here long before the OO and it'll be here long after the OO has gone.

As I say, it's not about the Irish language, it's more important in terms of what it's mean - the symbolism of it.  It wouldn't bother me if there is a stand alone US act.

I find it ironic all these GAA heads saying "we don't need it", it's a hobby" and it's a dead language etc."  Who needs enemies when you have 'friends' like these.

Another post - bilingualism is good.  Most children in Europe are bilingual.  Research has proven that bilingual has enormous benefits.  Funny how any gaelscoils have come from demand from working class areas for the most part.  Probably deserves a thread on it own - the advantages of bi-lingualism.

I don’t think you’ll find an Irish man against an Irish language act, how we are going about it currently (over a 1000 days of no assembly) could have been done better. Arguing with Irishmen over who’s more Irish is bizarre.

It’s a pathetic show from politicians here, dig your heels in stuff
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 21, 2019, 04:23:58 PM
That's irrelevant to the situation in Ireland though because the people you have mentioned that speak the minority language (Or variants of the dominant one) are still going to be able to speak the dominant language of the country they're in because it's spoken by everyone, unlike Irish here.

Erm, what? Irish, on both sides of the border today, is a minority language. English is the dominant language and I'd reckon you'd struggle these days to find anyone in all of Ireland whom has Irish as their first language but  struggles to converse in English.

Also, not every linguistic minority in a country has their population being largely bi or multilingual. In some cases this is true (Romansh speakers in Switzerland, German speakers in Denmark) but not in others - for example, a few years back a new Prime Minister of Belgium whom lived in the Wallon region of the country could barely speak any Dutch (the biggest of the three linguistic groups) and had to learn it "on the job" so to speak.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bannside on December 21, 2019, 04:53:03 PM
Exactly. No Irishman would have anything other than a positive outlook towards an act that allows Irish to be used whenever, wherever. My point is that I will still feel every bit as Irish as I already do whether it is implemented now or in five years. That's my point....Hardstation wasnt a mile away either lol.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fionntamhnach on December 21, 2019, 05:07:08 PM
After Slovakia became independent I heard they passed a law making it a crime to speak Hungarian/Magyar.
I expect/hope that died with EU membership!!.

Considering that the public broadcasting body in Slovakia (RTVS) has a radio station dedicated to the Hungarian speaking minority in the country, I'd seriously doubt it.

I don't think an ILA as currently being discussed should be a priority in law, but formal recognition for the legitimacy of the language is long overdue. Back in the mists of time I applied to a well-regarded London university with Irish as an A Level, but they wouldn't accept it as a qualifying grade. That would have been easily challenged if the language had had official status in law. it makes me wonder on how many other (more important) occasions has the study of this language and its literature been disrespected?

Obligatory IANAL disclaimer here, especially considering whom I'm talking to here!

But as far as I'm aware a potential ILA passed via Stormont would presumably only be legally enforceable in Northern Ireland, basing it on similar language provisions for Welsh and Gaelic in Wales and Scotland respectively. Universities are able to determine their own entrance requirements and can as such ignore certain qualifications or elements of qualifications, like the example given concerning A-Level Irish in a London university - they probably did so on the basis of not having enough knowledge of the subject to judge its suitability for entry. One infamous example I remember from back in my time in the late 90's concerned History of Art as an A-Level subject - although most universities accepted it for entry, some did not accept it if the applicant was also concurrently studying A-Level Art, and a think a handful or so declined it outright. The reason? It was regarded as one of the easiest A-Levels to pass and get A's or B's for.

Just to give my own €0.02, I think an ILA should be an aspiration in the (somewhat near) future, but at present there are far more pressing concerns in the short term concerning education & the health service at least, not to mention the likely impact Brexit will have in the north. Look, we know the DUP are a bunch of major league dickheads but issues concerning the Irish language and associated culture should stand on its own on a cross-party support basis which could be easily done with Sinn Fein, SDLP, Alliance and Greens at least to offer tactical support when time and funding allows at the first reasonable opportunity. Sinn Fein should be particularly concerned given the vote share drop they received at the Westminster election - a similar repeat in a Stormont election in the near future (possibly in the first half of 2020) would likely see them lose a number of MLAs regardless of whatever fallout comes from the eventual release of the RHI inquiry report.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 21, 2019, 05:54:25 PM
Ongoing debate about whether the Irish language has been weaponised. What is completely clear is that the ILA has been weaponised.

We are in “Brexit means Brexit” and “Get Brexit Done” territory here. People are are for against a label rather than something of substance i.e. the content behind the label.

I know there was a supposed leak of a draft ILA but the act is certainly not finalised.

Is impossible to have an opinion on the ILA until we see it.

Personally I think we should be trying to put an ILA in place but that ILA has to pass a test of reasonableness. I would propose the following test.

A filling station in Larne offers fuel and groceries to the local community. Today anyone going in trying to order for example £30 of unleaded petrol and a cake iced with a message in favour of equal marriage and trying to conduct the transaction in Irish is likely to be faced with blank faces. Any ILA is unlikely to change this. Any ILA that attempts to change this is not one I could support.

Anybody with a full command of English but insisted on attempting to conduct the transaction in Irish with the non Irish speaking till operator deserves neither sympathy nor legal support.

The more interesting aspect is where someone wants to buy a TV licence. The required documentation is provided by the post office. The post office is provided by the same filling station and the member of staff is the same one providing the iced cake and fuel at the other till. Bilingual documentation seems fair enough. Bilingual signage is a grey area. There are a lot of signs and a lot of small print. How much of this is to be bilingual and how quickly is it to be replaced and at what cost to competing priorities? An ILA will have to address this.

But then there is the verbal interaction with the counter staff. What requirement will be placed on the service station in order to allow them to provide a needed public service?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 21, 2019, 08:31:40 PM
As recently as 2009 the Slovaks weren't being nice to their Hungarians.

https://www.cleveland.com/world/2009/09/new_language_ban_in_slovakia_f.html
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on December 21, 2019, 09:05:42 PM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.

Bourdieu defined doxa as a realm of unquestioned orthodoxy in which things cannot be thought or said.
In the DUP the doxa is that NI is British and that anything Irish is the enemy.
This is very worn and tattered at this stage.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:07:28 AM
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.
False analogy, since no-one is proposing to "abolish Irish" i.e. even with no ILA, people will still be free to speak Irish whenever they wish (indeed they should be supported to do so imo)

A better analogy would be proposing to introduce special bus lanes on roads where there currently are no buses, there being no buses because virtually no-one uses them.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:19:18 AM
Yes, some people here would do away with the Irish language if they got a chance - only a hobby.
Sorry, but that's a Straw Man, since such people (if they exist) are idiots, who should not be taken seriously.

The ILA, according to Conradh na Gaeilge and An Dream Dearg etc. is the best way, through the various language experts, to protect minority languages.  It's best practice but it needs to be a stand alone act.
I'm not sure either of those sources could be said to be objective?
And in any case, whether they are correct or not, it is not a case of "protecting" the language, since like it or not, it has long since died out in NI.
The question should be whether an ILA would revive the language. I see no reason why it would, if only because so few people in NI currently make much of an effort to learn it beyond the rudimentary level they reached when required/persuaded to learn it at school.

Welsh and the Scots have their own acts and there's not the same uproar.
Both Wales and Scotland have areas where Welsh and Gallic are the primary language, spoken by the local population on a day-to-day basis. Northern Ireland does not.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:23:07 AM
Marty34,what the extent of your Irish? And what do you think makes you Irish?
I don't speak Irish, but I'm as Irish as anyone on this board.
Conversely, I do speak French to a good level, but I'm not French.
Obviously.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:25:00 AM
Tell you what! No one is a single dot more Irish than me... with or without the Irish Language act. I'm as 100%  Irish as I want to be with or without Gailige. Yes /No.

Exactly
Croppy lie down

crystal clear on this board who are the castle catholics/west brits. without our own language we are nothing but serfs
Go on then, what is the Irish for "playing the man", rather than the "ball"?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:40:40 AM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Whom do you mean by "Unionists"?

Do you imagine we are a monolithic bloc, all following exactly the same orthodoxy?

Many people on here casually invoke "the DUP" on this issue, as though they are the spokespersons for all Unionists, when their vote doesn't constitute a majority within Unionism, or anything like it.
And even of those who do vote DUP, many do so simply in order to keep SF out (as many SF voters do in reverse).

Indeed one recent poster mentioned the Orange Order. He/she might do well to note that the OO has long declined to publish its membership numbers, doubtless because it is estimated to have as few as 25,000 members, which equates to around 2.5% of the one million Protestants in NI.

So having got that out of the way, do you deny that SF are currently weaponising Irish? And does such a policy help or hinder the cause?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:51:21 AM
I studied Irish (and French) to A Level years ago, and have had cause and occasion to speak both since to varying degrees, albeit much of it forgotten.
 
In Northern Ireland?

I don't think an ILA as currently being discussed should be a priority in law, but formal recognition for the legitimacy of the language is long overdue.
What do you mean by "formal recognition"?
I personally would have no problem with some sort of Act from Stormont declaring that Irish was long the ancient language in these parts, that all those who wish to revive it should be encouraged and that those who do use it should not be discriminated against etc.

But that is a sight different from eg spending money on bilingual road signs, which would lead to the English version being scrubbed out in Nationalist areas and the Irish version in Unionist areas, leading to further segregation and sectarianising (word?) of the places we all have to live in.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 02:57:12 AM
Another post - bilingualism is good.  Most children in Europe are bilingual.  Research has proven that bilingual has enormous benefits.
Of course bi-lingualism is good. And no-one is saying (or at least no-one reasonable) that Irish language teaching, or Irish language schools, should be banned. Imo, there is a good argument for encouraging them.

But that is a long way short of pretending that Irish has equal standing* in NI with English, when it patently does not.

Otherwise we'd be introducing eg Polish or Chinese Language Acts as well.


* - "Standing" is not the same as "value" or "merit", btw.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on December 22, 2019, 03:02:25 AM
Bourdieu defined doxa as a realm of unquestioned orthodoxy in which things cannot be thought or said.
In the DUP the doxa is that NI is British and that anything Irish is the enemy.
Once more, just because the DUP may gain the most votes of any party from those Unionists who bother to vote at all, does not mean they speak for every Unionist on this topic any more than they do eg on gay rights or Brexit.

Ditto SF on the Nationalist side.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: tonto1888 on December 22, 2019, 06:18:25 AM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Whom do you mean by "Unionists"?

Do you imagine we are a monolithic bloc, all following exactly the same orthodoxy?

Many people on here casually invoke "the DUP" on this issue, as though they are the spokespersons for all Unionists, when their vote doesn't constitute a majority within Unionism, or anything like it.
And even of those who do vote DUP, many do so simply in order to keep SF out (as many SF voters do in reverse).

Indeed one recent poster mentioned the Orange Order. He/she might do well to note that the OO has long declined to publish its membership numbers, doubtless because it is estimated to have as few as 25,000 members, which equates to around 2.5% of the one million Protestants in NI.

So having got that out of the way, do you deny that SF are currently weaponising Irish? And does such a policy help or hinder the cause?

I don’t like the term weaponising the Irish language. The only other person I’ve really seen using it is Bryson. That said, I do think an ILA should be out to the side to get storming up and running. Once it is and things like health and education are back in track then it will be time to get an ILA
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bannside on December 22, 2019, 09:32:02 AM
Going to be an interesting few days as the DUP scramble from one crisis to the next. My guess is they will make a calculated gesture of concession on ILA but it will be watered down just enough to be wholly devisive to those seeking a full blown no holds barred version. A Devide and Conquer policy. Some in favour some against....muddy the waters...make it look like they aren't conceding too much to their hardline opponents etc etc.

If the shoe was on the other foot it would be exactly the same. That's the way politics works here isnt it. And the official communication from DUP will be released at 2.30pm.on Christmas Eve,  just so that it gets lost for a bit while people are distracted by the festivities. Or am I just being cynical!







Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on December 22, 2019, 12:28:27 PM
Sinn Fein ‘weaponising’ the Irish language is not the reason Unionists oppose it. It is merely a smokescreen and sounds like a more legitimate reason than the real one. They oppose it because it is Irish and they have done so for centuries, long before Sinn Fein even existed.
Whom do you mean by "Unionists"?

Do you imagine we are a monolithic bloc, all following exactly the same orthodoxy?

Many people on here casually invoke "the DUP" on this issue, as though they are the spokespersons for all Unionists, when their vote doesn't constitute a majority within Unionism, or anything like it.
And even of those who do vote DUP, many do so simply in order to keep SF out (as many SF voters do in reverse).

Indeed one recent poster mentioned the Orange Order. He/she might do well to note that the OO has long declined to publish its membership numbers, doubtless because it is estimated to have as few as 25,000 members, which equates to around 2.5% of the one million Protestants in NI.

So having got that out of the way, do you deny that SF are currently weaponising Irish? And does such a policy help or hinder the cause?
Weaponising is a bullshit term used to connect the Irish language to militant republicanism in order to legitimise Unionist hatred for Irish culture. They did the same with the GAA - “IRA at play”. What is true is that with or without Sinn Fein, Unionists have always hated the Irish language and have done their best to entirely wipe it out for hundreds of years. To all of a sudden blame Sinn Fein for that is entirely laughable.

What is Unionist? That’s pretty obvious.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on December 22, 2019, 12:37:34 PM
^^^ agree with this 100%
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2019, 12:49:43 PM
It was the brits that tried to ban it back in the 1300’s first, before we had unionists, it died after the famine and was only used in poor rural areas in the west of Ireland.

Since partition the unionist have tried their best to eradicate Irish culture in the north but it’s not going away, and it’s in a far better place than before, so continuing as it is, surely it will grow organically and develop?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bannside on December 22, 2019, 02:18:07 PM
Unionist bigots and loyalists hate it with a vengence no doubt about that. And I hope it hurts that shower hard. But not all Protestant people are bigots and many have no objection to the right of Irish people to obtain a proper platform for the language to be used - as long as it's not used as a big stick to beat them with at every opportunity. That's the problem though. There will be plenty queuing up to do just that.... and in doing so will turn off the exact profile of middle of the road "unionist" that will be key to securing approval from the middle ground when it comes to the Big vote!

The Protestant "ruling class" trampled all over Irish people for generations, but the vast majority of them have come to realise that that was plain wrong and has no place in modern society. In the event of a satisfactory ILA I would like to see its implementation rolled out with dignity, as evidence that in an AI situation the rights and traditions of their community will be safeguarded.

Of course that will be too soft a stance for many who havent the vision to realise that if the ILA is heralded as a massive "up your nose" to all and sundry, that they are doing a disservice to Irish nationalism in the medium term.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: 6th sam on December 22, 2019, 02:28:23 PM
It simply isn't acceptable to "oppose Sinn Féin", if SF proposes more buses then you cannot just abolish buses to spite them and the same with the Irish language.
False analogy, since no-one is proposing to "abolish Irish" i.e. even with no ILA, people will still be free to speak Irish whenever they wish (indeed they should be supported to do so imo)

A better analogy would be proposing to introduce special bus lanes on roads where there currently are no buses, there being no buses because virtually no-one uses them.

That’s very neighbourly of you allowing people to speak Irish if they wish😂😂 . I’m very grateful for That admirable generosity of spirit in allowing people to speak their native tongue .

I feel many are deliberately or otherwise missing the point about an ILA, it’s merely asking for similar status as Welsh or Gallic. It’s not about how many speak it on a day to day to basis , it’s about cultural protection. I would compare it to listed buildings protection. Belfast City Hall is cold and damp and economically  inefficient . It probably would make sense to pull it to the ground and selling off the prime real estate for tower block development , but thankfully the building’s listed for protection of our historical environment. We should look to do the same for positive aspects of our cultural heritage .
I’m totally opposed to an ILA holding up Stormont, when there are urgent issues around health and the economy. However,  I think DUP resistance to Irish Language status equivalent to Scots/Welsh betrays a lack of generosity , a continued desire for dominance and an elevation of British culture over Irish culture-which is a contravention of the GFA
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2019, 02:31:36 PM
On another note good to see EG back!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Dougal Maguire on December 22, 2019, 03:34:52 PM
Only you would think that
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 22, 2019, 03:44:13 PM
Only you would think that

You much prefer one way traffic? I don’t agree with some of his views but hes put plenty back in their box
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on December 22, 2019, 04:19:57 PM
Bourdieu defined doxa as a realm of unquestioned orthodoxy in which things cannot be thought or said.
In the DUP the doxa is that NI is British and that anything Irish is the enemy.
Once more, just because the DUP may gain the most votes of any party from those Unionists who bother to vote at all, does not mean they speak for every Unionist on this topic any more than they do eg on gay rights or Brexit.

Ditto SF on the Nationalist side.
Unionism’s identity is more fragile because the power it is based on is changing. It’s really weird driving through Loyalist areas in NI because identity is so in your face. What if the Queen doesn’t care?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: playwiththewind1st on December 22, 2019, 04:48:38 PM
She has more important things to think of. Prince Of Greece is in hospital & she needs to find young filly for Andrew, before Wednesday.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on December 22, 2019, 05:17:21 PM
On another note good to see EG back!
You'd miss th'oul hoor right enough. ;D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: seafoid on December 22, 2019, 05:22:32 PM
She has more important things to think of. Prince Of Greece is in hospital & she needs to find young filly for Andrew, before Wednesday.
She will sign off Brexit

The UK Constitution is broken

God Save the Queen second verse


« 2. O Lord our God arise,

Scatter her enemies

And make them fall;

Confound their politics,

Frustrate their knavish tricks,

On Thee our hopes we fix,

God save us all! . »

God doesn’t seem interested
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Denn Forever on December 22, 2019, 05:49:14 PM
It's only Banter....
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on December 23, 2019, 10:07:22 AM
It was the brits that tried to ban it back in the 1300’s first, before we had unionists, it died after the famine and was only used in poor rural areas in the west of Ireland.

Since partition the unionist have tried their best to eradicate Irish culture in the north but it’s not going away, and it’s in a far better place than before, so continuing as it is, surely it will grow organically and develop?

When was this famine that you speak off?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 23, 2019, 01:53:14 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on December 23, 2019, 03:52:16 PM
Speaking Irish or not does not define your Irishness. SF like the GAA and many other organisations that are culturally Irish encourage the use of Irish in everyday situations and to me that is to be lauded. Languages die with out use. Even a few words spoken in Irish helps the growth in the language what is so wrong with that. An ILA is a separate proposition which in my view needs careful thought. It should be their to facilitate and promote the language but should not bestow on Irish speakers any advantage over the general population, ie no quota for jobs etc... I have stated it many times on this board and it remains true that Irish is opposed by hard core Unionism in much the same way as the GAA or any semblance of Irish culture purely on the basis that it dilutes their Union and by extension their Britishness and is a sure path to a UI. I would actually contend the opposite. Had they embraced equality and made the NI state more reflective of both nationalities the Union would not be in question. But the old Boer mentality and fear of the natives still fuels everything they do.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Lar Naparka on December 23, 2019, 04:07:14 PM
Only you would think that

You much prefer one way traffic? I don’t agree with some of his views but hes put plenty back in their box
+1 ;D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: screenexile on December 23, 2019, 04:08:05 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Absolute Drivel!!

Anyone against an Irish Language Act is a bigot. . . I think you need to check the definition of what a bigot is.

Take a poll of everyone in the North and see how many want a standalone Irish Language Act yet you want to do it in tandem with fixing the Health Service??

Like many in the Irish language lobby... fanatics!!

People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 23, 2019, 04:29:10 PM


People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

Yes there is, not everyone lives in an area with a nationalist majority. Irish people should be able to use Irish in all parts of their own country.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 23, 2019, 05:49:02 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

An exhibition of weapons grade stupidity at work there.

Probably the stupidest thing ever posted on this site
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on December 23, 2019, 06:09:32 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Absolute Drivel!!

Anyone against an Irish Language Act is a bigot. . . I think you need to check the definition of what a bigot is.

Take a poll of everyone in the North and see how many want a standalone Irish Language Act yet you want to do it in tandem with fixing the Health Service??

Like many in the Irish language lobby... fanatics!!

People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

The latest statement from the TUV in regatds to the Irish language.

Chsnge your name to Draperstown Exile.....
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: tonto1888 on December 23, 2019, 06:32:14 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Absolute Drivel!!

Anyone against an Irish Language Act is a bigot. . . I think you need to check the definition of what a bigot is.

Take a poll of everyone in the North and see how many want a standalone Irish Language Act yet you want to do it in tandem with fixing the Health Service??

Like many in the Irish language lobby... fanatics!!

People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

There most certainly is need for one. Although I agree it shouldn’t be prioritised over other things like health or education
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 23, 2019, 11:10:23 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Absolute Drivel!!

Anyone against an Irish Language Act is a bigot. . . I think you need to check the definition of what a bigot is.

Take a poll of everyone in the North and see how many want a standalone Irish Language Act yet you want to do it in tandem with fixing the Health Service??

Like many in the Irish language lobby... fanatics!!

People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

There most certainly is need for one. Although I agree it shouldn’t be prioritised over other things like health or education

The point is that it has nothing to do with health and little to do with education, 21 years after the GFA and 12 after the St Andrews agreement do you go along with DUP bigotry or not.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 23, 2019, 11:28:08 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Absolute Drivel!!

Anyone against an Irish Language Act is a bigot. . . I think you need to check the definition of what a bigot is.

Take a poll of everyone in the North and see how many want a standalone Irish Language Act yet you want to do it in tandem with fixing the Health Service??

Like many in the Irish language lobby... fanatics!!

People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

There most certainly is need for one. Although I agree it shouldn’t be prioritised over other things like health or education

The point is that it has nothing to do with health and little to do with education, 21 years after the GFA and 12 after the St Andrews agreement do you go along with DUP bigotry or not.

Have DUP and SF issued a statement to the effect that even if ILA is not resolved they will resume decision making on health and education?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 23, 2019, 11:40:35 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Unalloyed ignorance writ large.

Health is difficult but get back to work in the executive and do the work. A failure to do their job by the executive passes the buck to the front line who (in what I accept is a difficult sector) are at and now sadly beyond breaking point
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Milltown Row2 on December 23, 2019, 11:43:57 PM
Anyone who is against an ILa (standalone) at this time is a bigot in my opinion. 

People are pushing it as an ILA or health, or an ILA or education etc.  It can be and should be the two together etc. instead of one over the other. 

I read someone on here saying we'll sort health first, then down the line we'll sort the ILA. Fantasy stuff - health will never be sorted properly!! Wait to the yanks in comes and we'll see what happens.

Others say it's an hobby...a f##king hobby!!!

Unalloyed ignorance writ large.

Health is difficult but get back to work in the executive and do the work. A failure to do their job by the executive passes the buck to the front line who (in what I accept is a difficult sector) are at and now sadly beyond breaking point

But more importantly is get those work documents bilingual, insure the medical report you get is in Irish also and I think Irish subtitles on tv is a must
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 23, 2019, 11:50:03 PM


People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

Yes there is, not everyone lives in an area with a nationalist majority. Irish people should be able to use Irish in all parts of their own country.

You are free to use Irish. You are free to use it anywhere you like. You might reasonably be expected to be circumspect in your expectation that your interlocutor will be or indeed should be be conversant in Irish
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JohnDenver on December 24, 2019, 09:13:32 AM


People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

Yes there is, not everyone lives in an area with a nationalist majority. Irish people should be able to use Irish in all parts of their own country.

You are free to use Irish. You are free to use it anywhere you like. You might reasonably be expected to be circumspect in your expectation that your interlocutor will be or indeed should be be conversant in Irish

Why the need for a language act in any country then? If the mighty empire had their way they would have gotten rid of every language except english. It's important to protect it. Not a case of shoving it down the throat of anybody that doesn't want to learn or use it. It's giving them the same rights to use it as their native language. The number of children being educated primarily through Irish is growing and will continue to do so.

You wouldn't have been "free" to use Irish, or be openly gay in a lot of places here not so long ago, and especially with the kind of attitude you's are peddling.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 24, 2019, 01:03:49 PM


People are free to speak Irish if they want and councils that have Nationalist majorities are free to have bilingual signs. There is absolutely ZERO need for it to be legislated for as a standalone act!

Yes there is, not everyone lives in an area with a nationalist majority. Irish people should be able to use Irish in all parts of their own country.

You are free to use Irish. You are free to use it anywhere you like. You might reasonably be expected to be circumspect in your expectation that your interlocutor will be or indeed should be be conversant in Irish

Why the need for a language act in any country then? If the mighty empire had their way they would have gotten rid of every language except english. It's important to protect it. Not a case of shoving it down the throat of anybody that doesn't want to learn or use it. It's giving them the same rights to use it as their native language. The number of children being educated primarily through Irish is growing and will continue to do so.

You wouldn't have been "free" to use Irish, or be openly gay in a lot of places here not so long ago, and especially with the kind of attitude you's are peddling.

I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

As I posted earlier we are in Brexit means Brexit or Get Brexit Done territory here. People are fixating on the creation or denial of a thing to be called the ILA. Surely the content of the act is the really critical point. It’s anazi that people can have such strong views on the ILA and no bloody clue as to its content
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on December 24, 2019, 01:58:24 PM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 24, 2019, 02:53:50 PM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?

I’ll start with some things I wouldn’t do.

I wouldn’t run away from executive responsibilities now. This place needs government. Either do your job or piss off and let someone else do it. In essence I would not make ILA a precondition of addressing other problems.

Secondly I would not set a deadline in isolation by which an ILA has to be place. The content of the act is more important than its title so anything that focuses on the title in isolation should be dismissed for the childishness that it is.

As for what I would do.

I would work towards publishing a detailed draft of the bill. This would be done to prove the reasonableness and feasibility of its provisions. Move the debate on from the title. Expose any unreasonable opposition to the Act and simultaneously expose unreasonable demands for what should be in it.

In essence break away from the idiocy that SF and DUP provide today and actually govern this place
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on December 25, 2019, 07:18:21 PM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?

I’ll start with some things I wouldn’t do.

I wouldn’t run away from executive responsibilities now. This place needs government. Either do your job or piss off and let someone else do it. In essence I would not make ILA a precondition of addressing other problems.

Secondly I would not set a deadline in isolation by which an ILA has to be place. The content of the act is more important than its title so anything that focuses on the title in isolation should be dismissed for the childishness that it is.

As for what I would do.

I would work towards publishing a detailed draft of the bill. This would be done to prove the reasonableness and feasibility of its provisions. Move the debate on from the title. Expose any unreasonable opposition to the Act and simultaneously expose unreasonable demands for what should be in it.

In essence break away from the idiocy that SF and DUP provide today and actually govern this place

How do you break away from the idiocy of the DUP when they are the majority party in the state? As long as the unionist electorate keep returning the DUP then forming a government is impossible from a nationalist viewpoint.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 26, 2019, 09:10:37 AM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?

I’ll start with some things I wouldn’t do.

I wouldn’t run away from executive responsibilities now. This place needs government. Either do your job or piss off and let someone else do it. In essence I would not make ILA a precondition of addressing other problems.

Secondly I would not set a deadline in isolation by which an ILA has to be place. The content of the act is more important than its title so anything that focuses on the title in isolation should be dismissed for the childishness that it is.

As for what I would do.

I would work towards publishing a detailed draft of the bill. This would be done to prove the reasonableness and feasibility of its provisions. Move the debate on from the title. Expose any unreasonable opposition to the Act and simultaneously expose unreasonable demands for what should be in it.

In essence break away from the idiocy that SF and DUP provide today and actually govern this place

How do you break away from the idiocy of the DUP
Things like the above. Work with the idiots who are elected, expose their idiocy but don’t match or mirror it
when they are the majority party in the state?
No they are not
As long as the unionist electorate keep returning the DUP then forming a government is impossible from a nationalist viewpoint.

We all have the same responsibility to make this place governable
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on December 26, 2019, 10:25:28 AM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?

I’ll start with some things I wouldn’t do.

I wouldn’t run away from executive responsibilities now. This place needs government. Either do your job or piss off and let someone else do it. In essence I would not make ILA a precondition of addressing other problems.

Secondly I would not set a deadline in isolation by which an ILA has to be place. The content of the act is more important than its title so anything that focuses on the title in isolation should be dismissed for the childishness that it is.

As for what I would do.

I would work towards publishing a detailed draft of the bill. This would be done to prove the reasonableness and feasibility of its provisions. Move the debate on from the title. Expose any unreasonable opposition to the Act and simultaneously expose unreasonable demands for what should be in it.

In essence break away from the idiocy that SF and DUP provide today and actually govern this place

How do you break away from the idiocy of the DUP
Things like the above. Work with the idiots who are elected, expose their idiocy but don’t match or mirror it
when they are the majority party in the state?
No they are not
As long as the unionist electorate keep returning the DUP then forming a government is impossible from a nationalist viewpoint.

We all have the same responsibility to make this place governable

How do you work with the DUP though? How do you work with Arlene? We've all seen their casual bigotry at every turn, we've seen their indifference to corruption and scandals with the RHI.

As long as the unionists keep returning the DUP, the north will remain ungovernable.

They are the majority party in the state, plain and simple, power sharing cannot work without them and it won't work with them either.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Kidder81 on December 26, 2019, 11:26:00 AM
SF and DUP can work quite well together when they are dishing out money to their pet projects and cronies at local government and council level, let’s not fool ourselves
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on December 26, 2019, 02:59:59 PM
SF and DUP can work quite well together when they are dishing out money to their pet projects and cronies at local government and council level, let’s not fool ourselves

So you're saying that SF should go back in and be lackeys for the DUP?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: bannside on December 26, 2019, 03:31:29 PM
That's not remotely what hes saying. His standalone point is entirely valid without linking it to any other situation. Why do you struggle with that....and what part of his comment do you disagree with??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on December 26, 2019, 03:51:23 PM
That's not remotely what hes saying. His standalone point is entirely valid without linking it to any other situation. Why do you struggle with that....and what part of his comment do you disagree with??

Because it doesn't bear context into the current situation, it's not local government issues we are talking about. Which bit of that do you not understand?

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 27, 2019, 05:27:20 PM
I am very happy for the Irish language to be protected. There are steps that be taken to encourage it. That is not the same as saying we must have a stand alone carte blanche act. And it’s not the same as saying we cannot address any other problem until the ILA is agreed.

This issue has been on the go since the GFA. Exactly how long do you propose the allow the DUP ensure there are no signs of Taigs  about the place?

I’ll start with some things I wouldn’t do.

I wouldn’t run away from executive responsibilities now. This place needs government. Either do your job or piss off and let someone else do it. In essence I would not make ILA a precondition of addressing other problems.

Secondly I would not set a deadline in isolation by which an ILA has to be place. The content of the act is more important than its title so anything that focuses on the title in isolation should be dismissed for the childishness that it is.

As for what I would do.

I would work towards publishing a detailed draft of the bill. This would be done to prove the reasonableness and feasibility of its provisions. Move the debate on from the title. Expose any unreasonable opposition to the Act and simultaneously expose unreasonable demands for what should be in it.

In essence break away from the idiocy that SF and DUP provide today and actually govern this place

How do you break away from the idiocy of the DUP
Things like the above. Work with the idiots who are elected, expose their idiocy but don’t match or mirror it
when they are the majority party in the state?
No they are not
As long as the unionist electorate keep returning the DUP then forming a government is impossible from a nationalist viewpoint.

We all have the same responsibility to make this place governable

How do you work with the DUP though? How do you work with Arlene? We've all seen their casual bigotry at every turn, we've seen their indifference to corruption and scandals with the RHI.

As long as the unionists keep returning the DUP, the north will remain ungovernable.

They are the majority party in the state, plain and simple, power sharing cannot work without them and it won't work with them either.

Firstly you decide that running away solves nothing for the people of NI.

You work with Arlene and DUP by doing exactly that - turning up for work. Do your work well and resist any urge for bigotry and corruption (probably best to examine each party’s track record on these fronts). By all means the bigotry and corruption of others. Always make sure your own hands are clean.

Nationalism and Unionism each have a responsibility to make sure NI is governable. Nationalists have the greater motivation for obvious reasons.

Power sharing is here for ever. The only people with an interest in it not working are those who despise their child and grand.

DUP are not a majority party. Plain and simple.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: smelmoth on December 27, 2019, 05:32:35 PM
SF and DUP can work quite well together when they are dishing out money to their pet projects and cronies at local government and council level, let’s not fool ourselves

So you're saying that SF should go back in and be lackeys for the DUP?

It would be hugely depressing if we were lulled into the absolute stupidity of thinking that to share power with DUP was to become their lackey.

With a fair wind and a bit of proper scrutiny we can get beyond this SF/DUP duopoly. These parties need to be exposed. Don’t run away from them. Run towards them armed with a torch
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on February 03, 2020, 02:34:33 PM
A bad week for Colum Eastwood. First off he failed to live up to his election promise to "Stop Brexit", and now two of his MLA's have been busy making a mockery of his big FF link up.

Claire Hanna, who opposed the FF link up and who shortly afterwards appeared at the Labour Party Conference, and who has in the past been pictured on the canvass trail for Labour, and regularly speaks of her support for Labour, was out canvassing this week for...you guessed it....Neale Richmond and Emer Currie of the blueshirts.

And then we have Pat Catney MLA who has been busy tweeting about his canvassing efforts on behalf of Aodhan O'Riordan of Labour.

Lest we forget that not long after his big FF link up was announced, his former party leader actually stood in the European elections for FG.

Laughable.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on February 10, 2020, 07:37:06 PM
Terrible election for the SDLP. They seemed to back every house but the winning one.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on February 11, 2020, 10:52:39 AM
Terrible election for the SDLP. They seemed to back every house but the winning one.
And not one SDLP candidate elected....oops wait!!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: TheOptimist on February 11, 2020, 01:05:34 PM
A bad week for Colum Eastwood. First off he failed to live up to his election promise to "Stop Brexit", and now two of his MLA's have been busy making a mockery of his big FF link up.

Claire Hanna, who opposed the FF link up and who shortly afterwards appeared at the Labour Party Conference, and who has in the past been pictured on the canvass trail for Labour, and regularly speaks of her support for Labour, was out canvassing this week for...you guessed it....Neale Richmond and Emer Currie of the blueshirts.

And then we have Pat Catney MLA who has been busy tweeting about his canvassing efforts on behalf of Aodhan O'Riordan of Labour.

Lest we forget that not long after his big FF link up was announced, his former party leader actually stood in the European elections for FG.

Laughable.

But credit where it is due he did manage to "stop Boris"....No?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jim Bob on February 11, 2020, 10:24:18 PM
Terrible election for the SDLP. They seemed to back every house but the winning one.
And not one SDLP candidate elected....oops wait!!!

“Not a bullet, not an ounce”  .......oops wait !!!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on February 11, 2020, 10:38:26 PM
Terrible election for the SDLP. They seemed to back every house but the winning one.
And not one SDLP candidate elected....oops wait!!!

“Not a bullet, not an ounce”  .......oops wait !!!

Applesisapples - Want some Aloe Vera for that?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Applesisapples on February 13, 2020, 04:21:05 PM
Terrible election for the SDLP. They seemed to back every house but the winning one.
And not one SDLP candidate elected....oops wait!!!

“Not a bullet, not an ounce”  .......oops wait !!!

Applesisapples - Want some Aloe Vera for that?
Not really that's an issue for the Shinners, in my view decommissioning was the right thing to do.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 09, 2020, 08:05:06 PM
What happened in Fermanagh and Tyrone council meeting? I see sdlp politicians apologising left right and centre on twitter but I can’t seem to see what about. Looks like something relating to Omagh bombing?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 09, 2020, 08:24:02 PM
Their councillors supported a motion to oppose the extradition of one of the Omagh Bomb accused to Lithuania to answer charges relating to buying arms for the Real IRA.
Think they were all rapped on the knuckles by Colm.

It was a council motion with no implications.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 09, 2020, 08:49:53 PM
Fermanagh South Tyrone Council haven't a very big role in Extradition right enough :D.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 09, 2020, 09:34:42 PM
Their councillors supported a motion to oppose the extradition of one of the Omagh Bomb accused to Lithuania to answer charges relating to buying arms for the Real IRA.
Think they were all rapped on the knuckles by Colm.

It was a council motion with no implications.

Ah - thanks. I couldn’t  see what they had done.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 10:30:47 AM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 10, 2020, 12:01:13 PM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 10, 2020, 12:26:16 PM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)
Sure there'd be more brains in a false face if you ever believed that he would stop Brexit  ;D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trailer on July 10, 2020, 02:07:54 PM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)

A work in progress. Probably just like SF's Unification strategy for this last.......checks notes......... 99 years!!

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: hardstation on July 11, 2020, 08:59:48 PM
Ahem....that would be the old whataboutery again, trailer.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 20, 2020, 01:15:07 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40018595.html
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 20, 2020, 03:10:27 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40018595.html

Just four years after they announced they were going to do it. ::)

Interesting that it has come now, just two or three days after Michael Martin, the leader of their new sister party ('the Republican Party') in an interview on RTÉ, was asked if he actually even wanted to see a United Ireland at some unspecified time in the future, and he spent around 3 minutes dodging the question, refusing to say yes.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 20, 2020, 06:00:31 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 20, 2020, 08:38:32 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 20, 2020, 08:43:00 PM
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40018595.html

Just four years after they announced they were going to do it. ::)

Interesting that it has come now, just two or three days after Michael Martin, the leader of their new sister party ('the Republican Party') in an interview on RTÉ, was asked if he actually even wanted to see a United Ireland at some unspecified time in the future, and he spent around 3 minutes dodging the question, refusing to say yes.
100%. If you're a republican but vote FF or SDLP you might as well draw a c*ck on the ballot paper.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 20, 2020, 08:50:44 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 20, 2020, 09:06:30 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
SF have done more than chant though. They've held countless forums on the topic. Holding such a forum is unchartered territory for the SDLP who are now tethered to the coat tails of a Taoiseach who seems bitterly opposed to the very notion of unity.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 20, 2020, 10:14:00 PM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)

Moaning Mary certainly didn't stop it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 20, 2020, 11:28:50 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
SF have done more than chant though. They've held countless forums on the topic. Holding such a forum is unchartered territory for the SDLP who are now tethered to the coat tails of a Taoiseach who seems bitterly opposed to the very notion of unity.
Genuine question...
Who attended the SF forums on Unity?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Gold on July 20, 2020, 11:46:47 PM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
SF have done more than chant though. They've held countless forums on the topic. Holding such a forum is unchartered territory for the SDLP who are now tethered to the coat tails of a Taoiseach who seems bitterly opposed to the very notion of unity.
Genuine question...
Who attended the SF forums on Unity?

Do you want Unity?

Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 20, 2020, 11:57:14 PM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 12:05:12 AM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Wrong. The GFA was not a 'referendum' on the constitutional status of the 6 counties. I've already pointed that out to you before.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2020, 12:14:01 AM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Wrong. The GFA was not a 'referendum' on the constitutional status of the 6 counties. I've already pointed that out to you before.
Hair splitting. The GFA was a referendum on the principle of consent, and it was adopted by voters north and south. And since Articles 2&3 were given up, the constitutional status of the north very much WAS part of what the people voted on.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: sid waddell on July 21, 2020, 12:18:58 AM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
SF have done more than chant though. They've held countless forums on the topic. Holding such a forum is unchartered territory for the SDLP who are now tethered to the coat tails of a Taoiseach who seems bitterly opposed to the very notion of unity.
Genuine question...
Who attended the SF forums on Unity?

Do you want Unity?

Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
I used to care deeply about this, and then I woke up and saw the damage toxic nationalism, and it's rare there is any other kind, does around the world.

Territorial matters are forever destined to cause conflict for the simple reason that different people who live in the same place want that place to be governed by different people in different places.

But what really matters is whether a society is fair and just rather than the flag or anthem you live under. People are people.

The North is by no means perfect on that score but its a damn sight better than it was 30 years ago, and the people who don't want Dublin to be their capital are not going away.

So its best you learn to live with them, no matter what jurisdiction you're under.

A united Ireland will come when it's ready to come.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 21, 2020, 12:22:37 AM
Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?
This Irishman is quite happy to be part of the UK, for a whole host of reasons.

And as people regularly tell me, I'm one in a million.  ;)

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
Where do you get your 90%?

There are a million avowed Unionists in NI.

And as every opinion poll demonstrates, of the other one million people in NI, whilst "Nationalist" in outlook, a significant proportion would either not vote in a UI referendum, or even vote to stay in  the UK.

Meanwhile, a very large proportion of the population of the Irish Republic either respect the principle enshrined in the GFA that NI will not leave the UK until/unless a majority in NI votes for it, and/or don't actually care much about unification either way.

So instead of expressing "disgust" at my/our/their preference, why don't you make an effort to understand us?

After all, this must surely be the first step towards persuading us to become disgusted at ourselves er, see things your way.

Which itself must be the second step towards your winning a referendum.

I mean, after 99 years of failing to murder/intimidate/browbeat/insult us into seeing things your way, why not try a different tack?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 21, 2020, 12:23:23 AM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)

Moaning Mary certainly didn't stop it.

Eastwood said, if election, he'd stop Brexit.  That's the point.  Nothing to do with MLMD.

It was his kind of 'election pledge'.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 12:23:36 AM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Wrong. The GFA was not a 'referendum' on the constitutional status of the 6 counties. I've already pointed that out to you before.
Hair splitting. The GFA was a referendum on the principle of consent, and it was adopted by voters north and south. And since Articles 2&3 were given up, the constitutional status of the north very much WAS part of what the people voted on.
No it WASN'T. Even if the GFA was voted against, the 6 counties would still have been under british rule, even more so.
Therefore it wasn't a one-off vote on the constitutional status of the 6 counties.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 21, 2020, 12:32:12 AM
Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?
This Irishman is quite happy to be part of the UK, for a whole host of reasons.

And as people regularly tell me, I'm one in a million.  ;)

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
Where do you get your 90%?

There are a million avowed Unionists in NI.

And as every opinion poll demonstrates, of the other one million people in NI, whilst "Nationalist" in outlook, a significant proportion would either not vote in a UI referendum, or even vote to stay in  the UK.

Meanwhile, a very large proportion of the population of the Irish Republic either respect the principle enshrined in the GFA that NI will not leave the UK until/unless a majority in NI votes for it, and/or don't actually care much about unification either way.

So instead of expressing "disgust" at my/our/their preference, why don't you make an effort to understand us?

After all, this must surely be the first step towards persuading us to become disgusted at ourselves er, see things your way.

Which itself must be the second step towards your winning a referendum.

I mean, after 99 years of failing to murder/intimidate/browbeat/insult us into seeing things your way, why not try a different tack?

Why are you talking about the artificial created statelet, one party rule, discrimination, inequality, sectarian deaths squads in collusion with the RUC and various state agencies?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 12:35:51 AM
Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?
This Irishman is quite happy to be part of the UK, for a whole host of reasons.

And as people regularly tell me, I'm one in a million.  ;)

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
Where do you get your 90%?

There are a million avowed Unionists in NI.

And as every opinion poll demonstrates, of the other one million people in NI, whilst "Nationalist" in outlook, a significant proportion would either not vote in a UI referendum, or even vote to stay in  the UK.

Meanwhile, a very large proportion of the population of the Irish Republic either respect the principle enshrined in the GFA that NI will not leave the UK until/unless a majority in NI votes for it, and/or don't actually care much about unification either way.

So instead of expressing "disgust" at my/our/their preference, why don't you make an effort to understand us?

After all, this must surely be the first step towards persuading us to become disgusted at ourselves er, see things your way.

Which itself must be the second step towards your winning a referendum.

I mean, after 99 years of failing to murder/intimidate/browbeat/insult us into seeing things your way, why not try a different tack?

Why are you talking about the artificial created statelet, one party rule, discrimination, inequality, sectarian deaths squads in collusion with the RUC and various state agencies?
+1 he has a quare neck on him  ;D
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 21, 2020, 12:36:34 AM
Genuine question...why isnt every Irish man and woman,  north and South, disgusted that part of our Island is ruled by Britain in the 21st century?
This Irishman is quite happy to be part of the UK, for a whole host of reasons.

And as people regularly tell me, I'm one in a million.  ;)

We make up 90percent of the population of Ireland. Why do we let colonial masters set the goalposts? The "i'm all right Jack" mentally is nauseating
Where do you get your 90%?

There are a million avowed Unionists in NI.

And as every opinion poll demonstrates, of the other one million people in NI, whilst "Nationalist" in outlook, a significant proportion would either not vote in a UI referendum, or even vote to stay in  the UK.

Meanwhile, a very large proportion of the population of the Irish Republic either respect the principle enshrined in the GFA that NI will not leave the UK until/unless a majority in NI votes for it, and/or don't actually care much about unification either way.

So instead of expressing "disgust" at my/our/their preference, why don't you make an effort to understand us?

After all, this must surely be the first step towards persuading us to become disgusted at ourselves er, see things your way.

Which itself must be the second step towards your winning a referendum.

I mean, after 99 years of failing to murder/intimidate/browbeat/insult us into seeing things your way, why not try a different tack?

Why are you talking about the artificial created statelet, one party rule, discrimination, inequality, sectarian deaths squads in collusion with the RUC and various state agencies?
Amd the 2020 "Prize For Spectacularly Missing The Point" goes to... ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: sid waddell on July 21, 2020, 12:53:18 AM
Why are you talking about the artificial created statelet, one party rule, discrimination, inequality, sectarian deaths squads in collusion with the RUC and various state agencies?
All territorial entities are artificial.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2020, 12:55:09 AM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Wrong. The GFA was not a 'referendum' on the constitutional status of the 6 counties. I've already pointed that out to you before.
Hair splitting. The GFA was a referendum on the principle of consent, and it was adopted by voters north and south. And since Articles 2&3 were given up, the constitutional status of the north very much WAS part of what the people voted on.
No it WASN'T. Even if the GFA was voted against, the 6 counties would still have been under british rule, even more so.
Therefore it wasn't a one-off vote on the constitutional status of the 6 counties.

Wasn't what? Wasn't a referendum on the principle of consent? Wasn't a referendum on Articles 2 & 3?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 01:04:20 AM
The people voted for the GFA which says that the 6 Cos remains in the "UK" unless a majority there vote differently.
The GFA was supported by Political parties who represent what % of voters?
You refer to "every Irish man and wonan" who make up 90% of the population.
Who are the 10% who arent Irish?
Wrong. The GFA was not a 'referendum' on the constitutional status of the 6 counties. I've already pointed that out to you before.
Hair splitting. The GFA was a referendum on the principle of consent, and it was adopted by voters north and south. And since Articles 2&3 were given up, the constitutional status of the north very much WAS part of what the people voted on.
No it WASN'T. Even if the GFA was voted against, the 6 counties would still have been under british rule, even more so.
Therefore it wasn't a one-off vote on the constitutional status of the 6 counties.

Wasn't what? Wasn't a referendum on the principle of consent? Wasn't a referendum on Articles 2 & 3?
Wasn't a referendum on the constitutional status of the 6 counties.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2020, 01:07:31 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 21, 2020, 01:33:36 AM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)

Moaning Mary certainly didn't stop it.

Eastwood said, if election, he'd stop Brexit.  That's the point.  Nothing to do with MLMD.

It was his kind of 'election pledge'.

And likely he would have stopped it, if he has a majority.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 07:33:23 AM
Chanting "Border Poll Now" hasn't done the trick.

Tethering your dying party to a FF leader who seems not so much disinterested as downright opposed to reunification should bring instant results alright.
As opposed to Sinn Féin who will give us a UI ...
Next week?
Next month?
Next year?
Maybe ye need to chant louder :D
SF have done more than chant though. They've held countless forums on the topic. Holding such a forum is unchartered territory for the SDLP who are now tethered to the coat tails of a Taoiseach who seems bitterly opposed to the very notion of unity.
Genuine question...
Who attended the SF forums on Unity?
Representatives from juat about every major political party in Ireland at various points. Cross commmunity academics/political commentators/civic leaders. British government figures.

They have been proactive more so than any party.

Good to see the SDLP finally taking an interest and all, but it's hard not to believe its just a smokescreen to reclaim lost ground among nationalists in the north. Hence why Colum Eastwood's pitch about his new "all inclusive" forum included some of his usual nasty SF bashing rhetoric. In reality, if they were remotely serious about reunification, they wouldn't have gone into a political partnership with Micheal Martin.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 08:27:17 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 21, 2020, 08:29:45 AM
Snapchat, are you referring to the Think 32 forums?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 21, 2020, 08:37:21 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 08:58:45 AM
Snapchat, are you referring to the Think 32 forums?
No though they were very good during the Brexit debate.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 08:59:31 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.

Well 51% should be easily got, but maintaining a happy country afterwards will be the hard bit- it is just my personal opinion. It seems a low bar for such an monumental change. The castle catholics and economic unionists will eventually settle into it. But we have 1 million unionists on this island who will be a very different prospect.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 21, 2020, 09:18:18 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.

Well 51% should be easily got, but maintaining a happy country afterwards will be the hard bit- it is just my personal opinion. It seems a low bar for such an monumental change. The castle catholics and economic unionists will eventually settle into it. But we have 1 million unionists on this island who will be a very different prospect.

And indeed a majority of them voted for it as well.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 09:29:36 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.

Well 51% should be easily got, but maintaining a happy country afterwards will be the hard bit- it is just my personal opinion. It seems a low bar for such an monumental change. The castle catholics and economic unionists will eventually settle into it. But we have 1 million unionists on this island who will be a very different prospect.

And indeed a majority of them voted for it as well.

Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 21, 2020, 09:34:50 AM
Someone asked for my opinion on the FST motion. It was wrong and the SDLP councillors shouldn't have supported it. Colum Eastwood intervened and told them to reverse their position which last I checked I understand they have. Sometimes holding your hands up and admitting you got it wrong is the right thing to do. I think people will respect them for doing that.

Has he stopped Brexit yet? (sorry I had to get it in before someone else)

Moaning Mary certainly didn't stop it.

Eastwood said, if election, he'd stop Brexit.  That's the point.  Nothing to do with MLMD.

It was his kind of 'election pledge'.

And likely he would have stopped it, if he has a majority.

Lol.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 21, 2020, 09:42:24 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.

Well 51% should be easily got, but maintaining a happy country afterwards will be the hard bit- it is just my personal opinion. It seems a low bar for such an monumental change. The castle catholics and economic unionists will eventually settle into it. But we have 1 million unionists on this island who will be a very different prospect.

And indeed a majority of them voted for it as well.

Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification

Reinforcing the point I was making that the likes of Francie fail to understand that it's going to take someone or something to win over the middle third and Francie and his ilk seem incapable of understanding that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 09:51:56 AM
Totally convinced that a UI is the way forward economically. I would vote for it.  But id fear it may only get 70% support across entire island. What would be an acceptable majority? One that would not leave us with significant problems afterwards. I don't think 50+1, which SF are in support of, is either sensible or realistic.

All those who voted for the GFA including Seamus Mallon ratified that so move on.

The problem that both Sinn Fein and the DUP have is that both need to win over the ever increasing middle ground, the castle catholics and economic unionists with a small u so to speak and both seem incapable of doing that as they feel the need to feed their bases with the usual old bullshit setting both causes back in the eyes of the middle ground.

Colm is almost apologetic for wanting a UI and whilst getting into bed with FF seemed like a good move towards an AI party he's been badly let down by Martin, who's as poor a leader as there has been and that takes some doing.

Well 51% should be easily got, but maintaining a happy country afterwards will be the hard bit- it is just my personal opinion. It seems a low bar for such an monumental change. The castle catholics and economic unionists will eventually settle into it. But we have 1 million unionists on this island who will be a very different prospect.

And indeed a majority of them voted for it as well.

Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification

Reinforcing the point I was making that the likes of Francie fail to understand that it's going to take someone or something to win over the middle third and Francie and his ilk seem incapable of understanding that.

Agreed
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 10:10:17 AM
Fear, Evil and others the " 1 million Unionists" is surely an out of date figure.
Wasn't it 48% of 1.8m in the 2011 Census.

The future all Ireland political entity will not be
An incorporation of the 6 Cos into the 26 Co State or
A type of Gröss South Armagh run by SF.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 10:37:12 AM
Fear, Evil and others the " 1 million Unionists" is surely an out of date figure.
Wasn't it 48% of 1.8m in the 2011 Census.

The future all Ireland political entity will not be
An incorporation of the 6 Cos into the 26 Co State or
A type of Gröss South Armagh run by SF.

Possibly
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 21, 2020, 10:37:27 AM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 21, 2020, 11:10:01 AM
Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification

The GFA allows a border poll and all you have to do is persuade a majority. What has Francie Molloy done to persuade anyone to vote for a United Ireland? His entire focus is in preaching to the converted.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 11:22:14 AM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 11:29:36 AM
Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification

The GFA allows a border poll and all you have to do is persuade a majority. What has Francie Molloy done to persuade anyone to vote for a United Ireland? His entire focus is in preaching to the converted.

To me it seems Francie's gripe was that, in light of recent comments by Micheal Martin, he doesn't see a scenario where the British and Irish Government will agree to a border poll, particularly in light of the recent attempts at moving the goalposts on 50%+1.

If the GFA says a simple majority is all that is required, and if successive polls consistently suggest even a narrow majority favour reunification (which any/all available indicators suggest is only a matter of time) and the British and Irish Governments refuse to allow the poll to take place, then his comments on being sold a pup would be accurate enough. Time will tell.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 21, 2020, 11:48:31 AM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.

John Bruton is one example.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 12:27:15 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong but does the GFA state that if it appears to the British " Secretary of State for Northern Ireland" that there MAY be a majority (in the 6 Cos) in favour of a UI then the S of S MAY hold a Referendum or is it WILL hold....??
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 12:55:31 PM
1. The Secretary of State may by order direct the holding of a poll for the
purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.

2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power
under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of
those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to
be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.


So, paragraph one confers the power to call a border poll on the SoS, and paragraph 2 confers the requirement to use that power, but only when he himself believes it is likely to result in Irish reunification.

So he is obliged to use the power, unless he decides he doesn't haveto/want to.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: RedHand88 on July 21, 2020, 01:07:22 PM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.

John Bruton is one example.

And Ruth Dudley Edwards.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 21, 2020, 01:11:23 PM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.

John Bruton is one example.

And Ruth Dudley Edwards.

I'd vote that way myself tomorrow if afforded the opportunity. The State my grandparents' generation worked to bring about was a failure long before I was even born. Only for the safety valve of emigration, we'd be living in a third world hellhole.  And the north. if anything, is worse.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 01:28:20 PM
1. The Secretary of State may by order direct the holding of a poll for the
purposes of section 1 on a date specified in the order.

2. Subject to paragraph 3, the Secretary of State shall exercise the power
under paragraph 1 if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of
those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to
be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland.


So, paragraph one confers the power to call a border poll on the SoS, and paragraph 2 confers the requirement to use that power, but only when he himself believes it is likely to result in Irish reunification.

So he is obliged to use the power, unless he decides he doesn't haveto/want to.
Thanks Snap.
Depends on how the SoS decides a majority might want to change.
Will it be if Nationalist Parties get more votes than Unionist ones or
If Nationalist Parties get more votes than all the others combined.
The latter may never happen.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardtole on July 21, 2020, 01:35:54 PM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.

John Bruton is one example.

And Ruth Dudley Edwards.

Neale Richmond, is the most recent to express an interest in exploring  joining the commonwealth. I'd say there is a similar sentiment throughout fg especially with the likes of Flanagan and Regina Doherty in their ranks.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 21, 2020, 01:43:42 PM
Yes I know. But Im not sure the reality of that situation would be a god place to be. Anyhow Francie Molloy MP doesn't see the GFA as a good vehicle for reunification

The GFA allows a border poll and all you have to do is persuade a majority. What has Francie Molloy done to persuade anyone to vote for a United Ireland? His entire focus is in preaching to the converted.

To me it seems Francie's gripe was that, in light of recent comments by Micheal Martin, he doesn't see a scenario where the British and Irish Government will agree to a border poll, particularly in light of the recent attempts at moving the goalposts on 50%+1.

If the GFA says a simple majority is all that is required, and if successive polls consistently suggest even a narrow majority favour reunification (which any/all available indicators suggest is only a matter of time) and the British and Irish Governments refuse to allow the poll to take place, then his comments on being sold a pup would be accurate enough. Time will tell.

Short version - Francis’s gripe articulates a nationalist frustration that 50%+1 is enough to legitimise British rule in the north but not Irish rule seemingly - the bar for which appears to be a level of consensus not seen in centuries, if ever, and which is not documented anywhere in the GFA.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 21, 2020, 01:46:17 PM
Not all unionists are in the six counties.
Really?
People who want to rejoin the "United" Kingdom?

Of the 140 something Countries and Territories who left the British Empire I'm not aware of any ONE that wanted to go back under it.

John Bruton is one example.

And Ruth Dudley Edwards.

Neale Richmond, is the most recent to express an interest in exploring  joining the commonwealth. I'd say there is a similar sentiment throughout fg especially with the likes of Flanagan and Regina Doherty in their ranks.

To be fair to them - If that was the price of a United Ireland I think most nationalists in the north would pay it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: ardtole on July 21, 2020, 02:27:19 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 03:13:15 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on July 21, 2020, 03:25:48 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.

FG have done .ore gor Irish independence than FF...
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 21, 2020, 03:42:08 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.

FG have done .ore gor Irish independence than FF...

Hardly a ringing endorsement as RDE has done more for a United Ireland than both.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 03:47:40 PM
Big difference between being a sovereign state in that Commonwealth thingy and being a subject territory of the old British Empire.
Outside of the 3 Ulster Counties, Leitrim, Longford, parts of Roscommon, Sligo, Westmeath, Meath and Louth there wouldnt be too much concern about a United Ireland among the general populace.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 21, 2020, 03:58:50 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 04:23:09 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 21, 2020, 04:31:51 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 21, 2020, 04:35:08 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
;D ;D would you care to provide evidence for that statement?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 04:36:28 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.

Yes, Leo "Belfast is Overseas" Varadkar is famously anti-partition.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 21, 2020, 09:10:34 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.

OMG...is this statement for real.

They have as much interest in a re-united Ireland  as the SDLP have...nothing plus zero !!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 09:48:39 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.

Yes, Leo "Belfast is Overseas" Varadkar is famously anti-partition.

Nearly as bad as Londonderry Lou and her poppy scarves
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 21, 2020, 10:01:31 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.

Yes, Leo "Belfast is Overseas" Varadkar is famously anti-partition.

Nearly as bad as Londonderry Lou and her poppy scarves

Yes, because Mary Lou is famously pro-partition.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 21, 2020, 10:10:31 PM
When are Sinn Féin "delivering" a United Ireland?
How nearer have they brought it than FF/FG/Greens/SDLP etc?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 21, 2020, 10:12:40 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.

Yes, Leo "Belfast is Overseas" Varadkar is famously anti-partition.

Nearly as bad as Londonderry Lou and her poppy scarves

Yes, because Mary Lou is famously pro-partition.

She is famously finger in the wind, wishy washy , moaning , crass, tube.
Londonderry FFS. Poppies FFS
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 21, 2020, 10:28:00 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
;D ;D would you care to provide evidence for that statement?

Coveney has said several times that he wants to see a United Ireland. In order for there to be serious discussion on a United Ireland people have to believe the there is a feasible plan, that the economics work. They are not going to believe in a plan produced by Martina Anderson or Barry "Bread on the Head" McElduff or in an Ireland run by these people. Coveney's calm demeanor alongside the clowns from London going on about Brexit did more for a UI than the whole of NI Sinn Féin put together.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 21, 2020, 11:14:30 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
;D ;D would you care to provide evidence for that statement?

Coveney has said several times that he wants to see a United Ireland. In order for there to be serious discussion on a United Ireland people have to believe the there is a feasible plan, that the economics work. They are not going to believe in a plan produced by Martina Anderson or Barry "Bread on the Head" McElduff or in an Ireland run by these people. Coveney's calm demeanor alongside the clowns from London going on about Brexit did more for a UI than the whole of NI Sinn Féin put together.

I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.

You can’t base this decision on economic expediency - that’s no basis for building a nation.

I agree it is vital to the long term success of a United Ireland  - but not to its delivery.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 21, 2020, 11:30:33 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
;D ;D would you care to provide evidence for that statement?

Coveney has said several times that he wants to see a United Ireland. In order for there to be serious discussion on a United Ireland people have to believe the there is a feasible plan, that the economics work. They are not going to believe in a plan produced by Martina Anderson or Barry "Bread on the Head" McElduff or in an Ireland run by these people. Coveney's calm demeanor alongside the clowns from London going on about Brexit did more for a UI than the whole of NI Sinn Féin put together.

I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.

You can’t base this decision on economic expediency - that’s no basis for building a nation.

I agree it is vital to the long term success of a United Ireland  - but not to its delivery.

This is the backwards approach of Sinn Fein. Somehow unite Ireland first, and only then do we start figuring out how to make it work.

The more sensible approach is to figure out ways to make it work that we can sell to northern Protestants in terms that will benefit them. If we do a good job of that then we'll get enough floating voters on board to swing the vote in our favour, and the transition to unity will be smoother and more peaceful. The SF approach is a recipe for another civil war.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 12:04:33 AM
In practice any Referendum will be decided by the "others".
Nationalists and Unionists will vote emotionally (44-40 when Ref is held) .
The 16% "others" will decide on the basis of economics, what plans or structure for the New Ireland and various other practicalities.
Remember some Northern "nationalists" on this forum previously informed us they wouldnt be voting UI of it cost them money or took away their NHS.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 22, 2020, 12:20:01 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.

All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 12:35:57 AM
Sure we all know Unionists (i.e. union to GB for now, England/Wales later) won't vote for a UI.
They wouldn't be Unionists then.
But they are not the majority any more.
The outcome will be decided by the "others".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Main Street on July 22, 2020, 12:50:33 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.

All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!
So EG essentially you are saying that there are no hopes of negotiation about a settlement path to  UI that would gain general acceptance among Unionists,  striking a sword to  Varadkar's "I have a UI dream". That NI on its own is not a viable concern and is addicted to the substantial British Gov subsidy. That it comes down to a numbers game. Should 50% plus one vote for a UI in a referendum, then and only then would you (Unionists) accept the majority opinion and sit down to negotiate identity issues with a helping of a  piece of the EU Central Bank pie, OR refuse  to -  instead engage in riots, burn stuff and general mayhem.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2020, 01:12:49 AM
This is why I talk about persuading "northern Protestants" rather than persuading "unionists" about the benefits of a UI. And they're not a monolithic block, there are plenty of nuances within northern Protestants, you only have to see the sheer number of churches they belong to.

Here are (roughly) the main groups as I see them from across the spectrum:


You could probably slice it up a bit finer than that. The goal should be not just to single out who in there you can persuade to support a UI. The goal should also be to persuade as many people as possible to accept reunification if it happens, even if they disagree with it, and not to sign another Ulster Covenant in their own blood vowing to fight back against it using weapons shipped in from the rogue state de jour (which in today's case would probably be Russia).
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 22, 2020, 02:22:23 AM
The bottom line is that the unionist vote is now in the 42-43% range and even a few of those are open to persuasion. Polls re Brexit showed that many of the rest are influenced by the detail. As we have seen in Scotland, which actually is in Britain, the present London regime does tend to drive centrifugal tendencies. Unification is like electric cars, you might not think the electric car adds up today but you expect not to be buying many more fossil fuel driven ones. But while eco crowd might say we should all buy electric cars now and range etc will improve in time, people want the range improved first and the charging infrastructure in place, then they'll buy the car. Likewise the 'Greens' want a UI now and work it out afterwards, but people won't buy that.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 22, 2020, 06:14:58 AM
EG, I enjoy reading your posts on this topic.
The socio-economic points you list as being a large part of why nationalists (and “other” I’d imagine) wouldn’t vote for unity are valid but not insurmountable. I think the New Ireland Forum idea should be used to consider the realities and alternatives in a unification scenario (eg NICS pension scheme is run by NILGOSC and could continue as-is, like any other private investment fund). Let’s find out how that could work. Prior to Brexit NI had successfully argued its case to get corp tax devolved, and developed its own business case to remove itself from the London teat, even if only in part. Take that a few steps further. A civic-led forum should explore the myths and realities.

Your point on how nationalists are happy that under the GFA they can claim their Irishness grossly misunderstands the impact of Brexit and DUP identity nonsense on this group. Brexit has/will force us to be treated in many respects in the same way as Finchley or Great Yarmouth or Sunderland. You seemingly fail to see the impact this has and will have on nationalists who are being  forced into something by Britain.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 22, 2020, 07:14:31 AM
Brexit changes everything IMO. It could be a game changer. I think Johnson changes a lot too. To me he’s the worst pm in my life and is a dangerous man to all bar his cronies. This in itself also would swing a lot of moderate people.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 07:56:51 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.

All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!

Great post - Weirdly enough I think I’ve been misunderstood and perfectly understood all at the one time.

I agree unionists are British, believe wholeheartedly in the union, and therefore for intrinsic emotional reasons will never be persuaded of a UI regardless of economics, regional assemblies etc.

Therefore - sadly and depressingly - the NI state is reduced to a numbers game. And you are right, all the forums, meetings etc won’t make a blind bit of difference to those who feel British - it wouldn’t move the needle for me in terms of  my Irishness, so why would anyone assume the Britishness of unionism is any less dearly held?

50%+1 is all that is needed to deliver Unity - for those that want Unity this is the goal. It’s what was agreed in 1998 and is the only show in town.

Where economics, admin etc come in, and where they are important in a UI context, is in reassuring unionists in the same way the GFA reassured nationalists - I.e. identity etc will be accepted and protected within the state. When 50%+1 is reached every Irish person should break their backs pursuing this effort, as the success of the unified state relies on it.

And guess what - it still won’t be enough for every unionist out there and there will inevitably be terrorists that will have to be faced down by the new Irish state.

That reassurance only kicks in though when the border poll is called and won. Up and until then, unionism’s self interests, by its very etymological definition, is best served in a Union with GB.

Therefore, acknowledging all of the above, the order of proceeding should be:

- Win the border poll to deliver the new state - I.e. 50%+1
- Then through a (long) process of engagement, make the constitutional and economic arrangements that secure the future of the new state and which protect Britishness for unionism - incredibly important not to repeat the mistakes NI made after it’s formation.
- Face down any terrorism that flares up as a reaction to the new state

The whole thing relies on a poll being called and won in the first instance though.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on July 22, 2020, 09:25:39 AM
I keep seeing the NHS being mentioned as an obstruction to a UI. Why? Have people short memories. Before Covid kicked in the NHS was never out of the news in NI for the ridiculous number of people on lengthy waiting lists. The NHS esp in NI is in serious trouble
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 22, 2020, 09:28:00 AM
The NHS esp in NI is in serious trouble
Wholeheartedly agree. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 22, 2020, 09:30:05 AM
The NHS esp in NI is in serious trouble
Wholeheartedly agree.

The number of ICU beds we have here is frightening. 95 in total and 60 are used. If the outbreak they predicted had happened with coronavirus , or if it does happen yet, we'd be in big big trouble.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 22, 2020, 09:38:38 AM
We also have too many hospitals and too much real estate taking up funds.  Bengoa had many suggestions that were not implemented, and it's falling down around us.  C-19 has helped in showing people that reform can be achieved when the push/immediate need is there.  Therefore changing how it works in a UI context is not unimaginable and could lead to serious improvements. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 22, 2020, 09:42:09 AM
We also have too many hospitals and too much real estate taking up funds.  Bengoa had many suggestions that were not implemented, and it's falling down around us.  C-19 has helped in showing people that reform can be achieved when the push/immediate need is there.  Therefore changing how it works in a UI context is not unimaginable and could lead to serious improvements.

No local politician is going to close the Mater, Lagan Valley and or the Ulster Hospital or the City hospital so expect the usual wastage and inefficiency.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 22, 2020, 09:51:06 AM
We also have too many hospitals and too much real estate taking up funds.  Bengoa had many suggestions that were not implemented, and it's falling down around us.  C-19 has helped in showing people that reform can be achieved when the push/immediate need is there.  Therefore changing how it works in a UI context is not unimaginable and could lead to serious improvements.

No local politician is going to close the Mater, Lagan Valley and or the Ulster Hospital or the City hospital so expect the usual wastage and inefficiency.

Exactly, but 5 hospitals in such a small geographical area is a joke
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: mouview on July 22, 2020, 10:30:52 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

etc.

A good and reasoned post, but can you ever explain why you want to belong to an 'edifice' that is almost utterly ignorant and indifferent to your existence or fate, and one which is in itself pulling asunder through a bonkers-Brexit sense of exceptionalism and nationalism? When the DUP went 'confidence and supply' with the Tories in 2017, a lot of the British press scarcely knew who they were and called them 'Irish'. At least if you 'turn your head south' you'd be more assured of a warmer welcome.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 22, 2020, 10:44:32 AM
Therefore, acknowledging all of the above, the order of proceeding should be:

- Win the border poll to deliver the new state - I.e. 50%+1
- Then through a (long) process of engagement, make the constitutional and economic arrangements that secure the future of the new state and which protect Britishness for unionism - incredibly important not to repeat the mistakes NI made after it’s formation.
- Face down any terrorism that flares up as a reaction to the new state

The whole thing relies on a poll being called and won in the first instance though.

So, Chief, what strategy do you have to reach 50%+1?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 22, 2020, 10:47:15 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.

All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!

A typical negative post - never, never, never.

You're not seliing the union to us.  Just no, no, no generic stuff.  The problem is partition has failed, failed everybody in Ireland.  It's been a mess. The 6 counties rely on London for all the handouts and jobs.  It's not as British as Finchley - Boris has sold you a pup, like Thatcher in '85.

Ireland is too small to justify 2 health care systems (NHS is a mess anyway), 2 education authorities etc. The duplication of everything is a joke.  It's the most pragmatic and sensible option.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 22, 2020, 10:47:36 AM
mouview sometimes I wonder would you get a warmer welcome from the south. There's a few on here I don't think you would anyway and I know a few in "the real world" where I don't think you would either. I would hope they are very much in the minority mind you.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 10:47:44 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

etc.

A good and reasoned post, but can you ever explain why you want to belong to an 'edifice' that is almost utterly ignorant and indifferent to your existence or fate, and one which is in itself pulling asunder through a bonkers-Brexit sense of exceptionalism and nationalism? When the DUP went 'confidence and supply' with the Tories in 2017, a lot of the British press scarcely knew who they were and called them 'Irish'. At least if you 'turn your head south' you'd be more assured of a warmer welcome.

The same reason we look south to a country that at best is indifferent to uniting with us.

It’s tribal, ancient and emotional and it’s a viewpoint that deserves the same respect as ours.

Patronising with forums, meetings etc, this side of a vote, is a waste of everyone’s time.

Have the vote, win or lose, be sound about the result in either direction, and work with each other afterwards.

That’s the only way forward.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 11:00:51 AM
Chief, only 1 individual can instigate this "vote" or " Border Poll" and only if it appears to him/her that there could be a majority in the 6 Cos in favour of reunification.
That individual is not a member of the Dáil/Irish Government or Stormont/Executive or any Political party in Ireland.
Neither is he/she a poster on GAA Board.
In the meantime it is up to those parties in favour of reunification to be looking at what kind of State and what kind of Constitutional arrangements might be appropriate.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 11:06:25 AM
Therefore, acknowledging all of the above, the order of proceeding should be:

- Win the border poll to deliver the new state - I.e. 50%+1
- Then through a (long) process of engagement, make the constitutional and economic arrangements that secure the future of the new state and which protect Britishness for unionism - incredibly important not to repeat the mistakes NI made after it’s formation.
- Face down any terrorism that flares up as a reaction to the new state

The whole thing relies on a poll being called and won in the first instance though.

So, Chief, what strategy do you have to reach 50%+1?

First things first, have the vote so we can see what the true state of play is, instead  of relying on Belfast telegraph or Rte polls.

You can’t address a problem until you look at it squarely and uncomfortably in the face, and understand truly the motivations of the demographics who would tip the scale in favour of a UI.

I’d imagine though the key to getting the vote across the line is the destruction of the easy pro-union arguments that will be trotted out:

For example

1) Constructing an Irish Health Service that rivals any NHS scaremongering that is done. At a time when governments can borrow at negative interest rates, lack of affordability is no excuse any more.
2) Proactively building into the existing 26 county constitution, a protected place for unionists and their culture - thereby removing concerns about their treatment in a new state.
3) Creating interest and momentum ahead of a vote by permitting northern speaking and voting rights in the Dail, and voting rights for Northern people in Irish presidential and senate elections.
4) Construction of a Unity Fund - to address concerns about the admin cost associated with unity (again the markets are paying governments to borrow at present so affordability is not an excuse).
5) Acknowledging that either elected reps from the 6 counties will have a guaranteed amount  of representation in a new UI parliament, or allow for a retention of devolution.
6) Acknowledge, as a matter of official policy -, without mandating what the outcome will be - that the new state will need new flags, anthems and symbols

Do/Guarantee all that and I’m sure the only thing that prevents 50%+1 are ancient loyalties - which we should never be arrogant enough to think we can persuade away, and which will manifest themselves in a border poll whenever it’s called, and which no amount of forums or meetings will ever solve for.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 22, 2020, 11:07:54 AM
The same reason we look south to a country that at best is indifferent to uniting with us.

It’s tribal, ancient and emotional and it’s a viewpoint that deserves the same respect as ours.

Patronising with forums, meetings etc, this side of a vote, is a waste of everyone’s time.

Have the vote, win or lose, be sound about the result in either direction, and work with each other afterwards.

That’s the only way forward.

This presumes that there are only two mutually exclusive groups and that the continuation of the present situation is only support by out and out planters like EG. In reality there is a spectrum of people, EamonnCa alluded to this, and there is a large and increasing bloc in the middle. These people reasonably want a proper case to be made if you want them to change their arrangements. Having a half baked vote would be a disaster and you'd then have to have forums, meetings, etc. afterwards anyway according to your post.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trueblue1234 on July 22, 2020, 11:09:37 AM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.

All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!
Fair post EG. However there has been polls that have shown it's not quite as clear a majority as you state. The Lord Ashcroft poll had a stat on a border poll and it was 51% for leaving the UK and joining ROI. Brexit hasn't gone away and the impact of such will be significant over the next few years and may influence the voting pattern of your "garden center unionists" and definitely the "castle Catholics" if the impact is negative.
With regards to the bit in bold, the same is true for nationalists with the DUP (And the UK Government) being every bit as distasteful as SF and is therefore why the clamor for a UI will not die away. Which means whatever happens - status quo with NI or move towards a UI, the country/ies are destine for division internally for the foreseeable. And unfortunately there is nothing that can be done.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 11:19:45 AM
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/public-consultation-on-format-of-any-future-border-poll-begins-1.4310688?mode=amp
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Franko on July 22, 2020, 12:05:20 PM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.


All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!

The bit in bold is utter nonsense.

I've a great many friends who would be in the 'castle catholic' bracket so-to-speak.  The idiocy of Brexit and the lies/spin/corruption of the current UK govt have ensured that this demographic are voting for a UI in their droves.

And this 'massive' Westminster subvention?  This would be chump change to an EU who would only be too delighted to see the 6 counties flourishing whilst watching the rest of the old UK (England) stagger around oafishly, drunk on the spirit of Dunkirk.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 12:14:04 PM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

Now I accept that Nationalists have severe difficulty in understanding why our British identity is so important to us, fair enough. But surely even the most fervent Shinner cannot deny that it is, and that after nearly a century when it was under almost continuous threat from a variety of quarters, we're not simply going to give it up for a few kind words and promises from Dublin.

All of which explains why Unionist support for the Union remains as strong as ever, even from amongst "Garden Centre Unionists" who ordinarily have no interest in politics and don't vote in elections etc. As I show below, Unionist support for the Union is rock-solid, indeed never more so than when we saw the rise in support for Sinn Fein down south at the last election. I mean, if there was any chance whatever of us finding ourselves in a UI where SF formed even part of the government, then even the most moderate and reasonable Unionist would find himself clambering to the top of the nearest barricade to gaulder "Never! Never! Never!"

Which brings us next to the Nationalist population of NI. The long awaited demographic wave which was going to swamp the North has just about reached high tide without washing us all into a United Ireland (RC's appreciate the benefits of contraception and smaller families, too!). And even if it may still achieve the magic 50%+ 1 "majority" sometime reasonably soon, that's still nowhere near doing the trick, ironically for the self-same reason of Identity.

For the other unappreciated or misunderstood aspect of the GFA is that it finally satisfied the desire of Nationalists in NI to have their own (Irish) identity formally recognised: "Sure we're as Irish as anyone in the South".

And that identity having been recognised, given a vote in a Referendum, a high proportion of NI "Nationalists" will either not bother to vote, or will even vote to remain, for essentially socio-economic reasons: government jobs, NHS, pensions etc, above all the massive Westminster subsidy of the NI economy which Dublin either could not, or would not, take over.


All of which is consistently reflected in every opinion poll which has ever been conducted in NI this century, including eg this one from February:

Just 29% in Northern Ireland would vote for unity, major study reveals

A total of 99% of DUP and UUP voters wanted to remain in the UK compared to 92% of Sinn Fein and 81% of SDLP voters saying they would support Irish unity in a border poll.

Just 30% of Alliance voters backed a united Ireland compared to 70% supporting the Union.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/just-29-in-northern-ireland-would-vote-for-unity-major-study-reveals-38966196.html)

So there you have it: all the Conferences, Study Groups, Manifestos and Five Year Plans emanating from Nationalism won't make a blind bit of difference to the Unionist population in NI, nor move us to consider giving a UI a go.

Which is not to say that we could never (never, never) be persuaded, but it's late and you're probably all bored beyond tears long ago, so I'll withhold my wisdom on that score for another day!

The bit in bold is utter nonsense.

I've a great many friends who would be in the 'castle catholic' bracket so-to-speak.  The idiocy of Brexit and the lies/spin/corruption of the current UK govt have ensured that this demographic are voting for a UI in their droves.

And this 'massive' Westminster subvention?  This would be chump change to an EU who would only be too delighted to see the 6 counties flourishing whilst the rest of the old UK staggers around oafishly, drunk on the spirit of Dunkirk.

The subvention is overstated.

To what extent nobody really knows -I’m guessing less than the UK govt says it is, but more than SF say it is.

It covers things like UK defence spending, public sector pensions etc that quite simply the north would no longer be paying for in a United Ireland to anywhere near the same extent.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 22, 2020, 12:16:23 PM

I've a great many friends who would be in the 'castle catholic' bracket so-to-speak.  The idiocy of Brexit and the lies/spin/corruption of the current UK govt have ensured that this demographic are voting for a UI in their droves.

And this 'massive' Westminster subvention?  This would be chump change to an EU who would only be too delighted to see the 6 counties flourishing whilst watching the rest of the old UK (England) stagger around oafishly, drunk on the spirit of Dunkirk.

The EU doesn't care two hoots about the six counties, apart possibly as a future net contributor to their budget. Look at the piss-poor deal that they foisted on the Irish govt this week. We're paying in per capita terms twice what the Germans are paying and 4 times what the French are paying. In that context, it's laughable to expect the EU ever to pay the north the equivalent of the Westminster subvention, although they might do so for a couple of years to get you hooked.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: 93-DY-SAM on July 22, 2020, 12:58:15 PM
I disagree - people need to decide they want to accept the north as part of the Irish nation as a matter of principle first, only then can there be a discussion on how to best make it work.
I read this post, indeed this whole thread damn near, and to paraphrase Robbie Burns:
"O, wad some Power the giftie gie youse, To see Themmuns as they see themsels!"

I mean, "People need to decide they want to accept the north [sic] as part of the Irish nation"...

When are Nationalists (ROI and NI) going to recognise that a UI is not within their gift to accept/deliver/negotiate/coerce or anything else?

The GFA made it crystal clear that the only way there will be a UI is if a majority of people in NI voting for it in a referendum. And effectively, that means the Unionist people voting for it, as follows.

Basically, as eg the Scottish Independence or Brexit votes demonstrated, such Referenda are not about politics, they are about Identity.

And as far as Unionists are concerned, No Union = No Unionism = No Unionists. Therefore in the absence of some overriding, irresistable reason, why would we want to erase our own British identity and vote ourselves out of existence?

etc.

A good and reasoned post, but can you ever explain why you want to belong to an 'edifice' that is almost utterly ignorant and indifferent to your existence or fate, and one which is in itself pulling asunder through a bonkers-Brexit sense of exceptionalism and nationalism? When the DUP went 'confidence and supply' with the Tories in 2017, a lot of the British press scarcely knew who they were and called them 'Irish'. At least if you 'turn your head south' you'd be more assured of a warmer welcome.

This is something I can never really understand as well. It always appears to be mostly a one way connection. Can someone, perhaps EG, explain this?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 22, 2020, 01:07:46 PM
Sure we all know Unionists (i.e. union to GB for now, England/Wales later) won't vote for a UI.
They wouldn't be Unionists then.
But they are not the majority any more.
The outcome will be decided by the "others".
The only "majority" which counts is that which emerges from a Referendum.

And whether the participants be designated "Unionist", "Nationalist" or "Other", every poll this century (and previously) indicates that a clear and decisive majority of the votes will be pro-Union.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 01:27:44 PM
Time will tell but firstly it has to appear to the SoS that reunification might get a majority.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 22, 2020, 01:55:10 PM
So EG essentially you are saying that there are no hopes of negotiation about a settlement path to  UI that would gain general acceptance among Unionists,  striking a sword to  Varadkar's "I have a UI dream".
No,  am not saying that.

Nor would it need "general" acceptance among Unionists either, merely a proportion of them - say 25%?

Rather my point is that the various strategies which have been employed by the different strands of Nationalism and Republicanism over the course of a century have all failed.

And as someone (Einstein?) once observed, a definition of insanity is "repeating the same mistakes and expecting different results."

So EG essentially you are saying that...         ... NI on its own is not a viable concern and is addicted to the substantial British Gov subsidy.
NI is hardly any less a "viable concern" than (post-oil) Scotland, Wales or large parts of England. Though all have thrived at various times in the past, and who knows, could be so again.

Likewise, who would have thought as recently as the late 1970's/early 1980's that the Republic, which had always been an economic basket case throughout its existence, would be the economic success story it is now?

in any case, we are where we are, and if NI were to join a UI in such circumstances, who is going to foot the bill?

Dublin? I think not.

The EU? Just ask eg the Greeks what they think of your chances there!

A dowry from Westminster? Good luck with that one.

Or maybe you're expecting a letter from America any day now?

That it comes down to a numbers game. Should 50% plus one vote for a UI in a referendum, then and only then would you (Unionists) accept the majority opinion and sit down to negotiate identity issues with a helping of a  piece of the EU Central Bank pie, OR refuse  to -  instead engage in riots, burn stuff and general mayhem.
And the numbers (votes) are massively in  our favour, with no sign of that changing in the foreseeable future.

Which was only the point injudiciously conceded by SF's favourite psephologist, Prof. Brendan O'Leary, at a SF fundraiser in New York a few years back. (Of course, SF tried to erase the record, but weren't able to get to an Irish Times reporter quickly enough to, er, "persuade" him that he'd misheard O'Leary, so it slipped out.)

Should 50% plus one vote for a UI in a referendum, then and only then would you (Unionists) accept the majority opinion and sit down to negotiate identity issues with a helping of a  piece of the EU Central Bank pie, OR refuse  to -  instead engage in riots, burn stuff and general mayhem.
As I keep saying, in the present or foreseeable political dispensation, there is no prospect of the pro-UI vote eventually creeping up to 50%+1.

I mean, look at the Nationalist vote in NI (SF, SDLP, minor parties etc). As O'Leary pointed out, it has plateaued at around 43% in every election this century, with no sign of it rising again. (And that's only votes cast in an election. As I've pointed out, you cannot simply transpose those votes to a Referendum, where different people vote for different reasons.)

The key to winning any such debate lies not in increasing the Nationalist vote (ain't happening), but in persuading a significant section of the pro-Union electorate to change their stance.

And while I accept that that might be possible in time and  without causing a violent backlash, it is never going to happen while there is a chance we may be entrusting our future to a government in Dublin in which SF has power and influence.

For the dogs on the streets know that SF in Dublin take their orders from SF in Belfast, who in turn take their orders from The Army Council.

And the Council? "Well they haven't gone away, you know", as someone famously said, even if the late Bobby Storey has:


Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 02:05:46 PM
Sure we all know Unionists (i.e. union to GB for now, England/Wales later) won't vote for a UI.
They wouldn't be Unionists then.
But they are not the majority any more.
The outcome will be decided by the "others".
The only "majority" which counts is that which emerges from a Referendum.

And whether the participants be designated "Unionist", "Nationalist" or "Other", every poll this century (and previously) indicates that a clear and decisive majority of the votes will be pro-Union.

I’d just wish we could find out for sure. I.e. call the border poll and see who wins, we talk about it enough. It’s just democracy.

I beg to differ that the outcome is as you say it would be. I’d have confidence (just a personal feeling - nothing more scientific) that a UI would be won if a border poll was called now.

I suspect unionists have the same fear, otherwise I have a feeling they would be more relaxed about a poll.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 22, 2020, 02:28:07 PM
The bottom line is that the unionist vote is now in the 42-43% range...
The "Unionist vote" as measured by votes cast in elections for DUP/UUP/TUV etc.

But my whole point is that people do not necessarily vote along party lines in Referenda of this sort. Look eg at Scotland, where the SNP was by far the biggest party, but lost their Referendum. Or the Brexit vote, where party lines were completely ignored, in both GB and NI.

(Your 42-43% range - pretty much identical to the Nationalist vote btw - conveniently ignores the 15%-odd who vote "Other", but who would be strongly and demonstrably pro-Union if it came to a UI Referendum)

... and even a few of those are open to persuasion.
I agree we could be open to persuasion.

But Nationalism is going have to "write a new script" before that will happen.

For as long as the largest Nationalist Party sees eg Bobby Storey as a great man/true patriot/Republican royalty, while Unionists see him as a mass murderer/terrorist/gangster, then regardless of which view is valid, we are not going to take a chance on a future in the hands of people like that.

Sorry, but it simply ain't gonna happen.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 22, 2020, 02:33:50 PM
Has anyone from fg in recent times expressed any interest in a united Ireland.
Of course not, they're basically irish tories and west brits.

I wouldn't oversimplify things, Coveney has made his views clear and I think Helen McEntee likewise.
The difference would be that these people actually want a United Ireland, not just to spout off about it without doing anything to achieve it.
Let me get this straight, are you saying that Coveney and others in FG want a UI, and are doing something to achieve it?

yes and yes.
;D ;D would you care to provide evidence for that statement?

Coveney has said several times that he wants to see a United Ireland. In order for there to be serious discussion on a United Ireland people have to believe the there is a feasible plan, that the economics work. They are not going to believe in a plan produced by Martina Anderson or Barry "Bread on the Head" McElduff or in an Ireland run by these people. Coveney's calm demeanor alongside the clowns from London going on about Brexit did more for a UI than the whole of NI Sinn Féin put together.
Said it but put it off as a priority, ie done nothing. Actions speak louder than words. FG have as much interest in a united ireland as the man on the moon, if anything they can do without it. Oh so because he's "calm" then that has done more for a UI? ;D Catch yourself on
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: GiveItToTheShooters on July 22, 2020, 02:52:55 PM
EG posts are laughable, wouldn't know where to start if I was to address them individually. Think he knows a UI is inevitable and he's doing his utmost to convince himself, and others, otherwise.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trueblue1234 on July 22, 2020, 02:56:35 PM
The bottom line is that the unionist vote is now in the 42-43% range...
The "Unionist vote" as measured by votes cast in elections for DUP/UUP/TUV etc.

But my whole point is that people do not necessarily vote along party lines in Referenda of this sort. Look eg at Scotland, where the SNP was by far the biggest party, but lost their Referendum. Or the Brexit vote, where party lines were completely ignored, in both GB and NI.

(Your 42-43% range - pretty much identical to the Nationalist vote btw - conveniently ignores the 15%-odd who vote "Other", but who would be strongly and demonstrably pro-Union if it came to a UI Referendum)

... and even a few of those are open to persuasion.
I agree we could be open to persuasion.

But Nationalism is going have to "write a new script" before that will happen.

For as long as the largest Nationalist Party sees eg Bobby Storey as a great man/true patriot/Republican royalty, while Unionists see him as a mass murderer/terrorist/gangster, then regardless of which view is valid, we are not going to take a chance on a future in the hands of people like that.

Sorry, but it simply ain't gonna happen.
The reality is that a new script is being written for the island with Brexit. And that could significantly impact the direction any fringe/ floating voters are going to vote for. While Covid has taken the focus away from Brexit for the time being it's impact hasn't decreased. With the DUP as the largest Unionist party, Unionists are never going to win (current)nationalists over to wanting to continue in the status quo. So the impact of an extraordinary event like Brexit can not be underestimated.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: general_lee on July 22, 2020, 03:00:48 PM
But my whole point is that people do not necessarily vote along party lines in Referenda of this sort. Look eg at Scotland, where the SNP was by far the biggest party, but lost their Referendum. Or the Brexit vote, where party lines were completely ignored, in both GB and NI.
I agree there is a lot for those in the pro-unity camp to learn from the aforementioned. Perhaps a tacit campaign of lies and misinformation?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 22, 2020, 03:24:13 PM
The bottom line is that the unionist vote is now in the 42-43% range...
The "Unionist vote" as measured by votes cast in elections for DUP/UUP/TUV etc.

But my whole point is that people do not necessarily vote along party lines in Referenda of this sort. Look eg at Scotland, where the SNP was by far the biggest party, but lost their Referendum. Or the Brexit vote, where party lines were completely ignored, in both GB and NI.

(Your 42-43% range - pretty much identical to the Nationalist vote btw - conveniently ignores the 15%-odd who vote "Other", but who would be strongly and demonstrably pro-Union if it came to a UI Referendum)

... and even a few of those are open to persuasion.
I agree we could be open to persuasion.

But Nationalism is going have to "write a new script" before that will happen.

For as long as the largest Nationalist Party sees eg Bobby Storey as a great man/true patriot/Republican royalty, while Unionists see him as a mass murderer/terrorist/gangster, then regardless of which view is valid, we are not going to take a chance on a future in the hands of people like that.

Sorry, but it simply ain't gonna happen.
The reality is that a new script is being written for the island with Brexit. And that could significantly impact the direction any fringe/ floating voters are going to vote for. While Covid has taken the focus away from Brexit for the time being it's impact hasn't decreased. With the DUP as the largest Unionist party, Unionists are never going to win (current)nationalists over to wanting to continue in the status quo. So the impact of an extraordinary event like Brexit can not be underestimated.

The Boris Johnston factor is huge too. There has never in my mind been a more incompetent or "morally bankrupt" tory government and that is saying something. We would need to get away from them if possible IMO for the good of anyone and everyone. They could not give one hoot about this place. Johnston just makes that more apparent.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 22, 2020, 03:32:21 PM
EG posts are laughable, wouldn't know where to start if I was to address them individually. Think he knows a UI is inevitable and he's doing his utmost to convince himself, and others, otherwise.

You can laugh all you like but he's not wrong.

The middle ground who don't vote for the out and out unionist parties (who no longer have a 50% majority) will decide on a UI or not.

One minute the DUP and their Brexit strategy push this group towards a UI till the shinners make yet another f**k up..

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: An Watcher on July 22, 2020, 03:44:59 PM
Sorry but it simply ain't gonna happen

OK then we'll just forget about it then. Can't stand such arrogance. Like it or not the prospect of a UI has progressed much quicker in the last 10/20 years than anyone ever expected. Even discussing the possibility of a vote on Irish Unity was unthinkable ten years ago. Where will we be in another ten years? I didn't think I'd ever see a united Ireland in my lifetime but I'm convinced more than ever now that I will.

Sorry but it is going to happen.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 22, 2020, 04:10:30 PM
Sorry but it simply ain't gonna happen

OK then we'll just forget about it then. Can't stand such arrogance. Like it or not the prospect of a UI has progressed much quicker in the last 10/20 years than anyone ever expected. Even discussing the possibility of a vote on Irish Unity was unthinkable ten years ago. Where will we be in another ten years? I didn't think I'd ever see a united Ireland in my lifetime but I'm convinced more than ever now that I will.

Sorry but it is going to happen.

Ironic that it was Brexit that is driving the speed of change-not SF who of course were openly anti-EU until Brexit.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 22, 2020, 04:11:19 PM
Sorry but it simply ain't gonna happen

OK then we'll just forget about it then. Can't stand such arrogance. Like it or not the prospect of a UI has progressed much quicker in the last 10/20 years than anyone ever expected. Even discussing the possibility of a vote on Irish Unity was unthinkable ten years ago. Where will we be in another ten years? I didn't think I'd ever see a united Ireland in my lifetime but I'm convinced more than ever now that I will.

Sorry but it is going to happen.

I think it will happen in my lifetime too, but the increasing nationalist demographics won't be enough and work will need to be done to persuade those from a protestant background that their needs will be served in a UI..
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 22, 2020, 04:14:55 PM
So do I and I didn't until Brexit.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Evil Genius on July 22, 2020, 04:34:54 PM
EG, I enjoy reading your posts on this topic.
The socio-economic points you list as being a large part of why nationalists (and “other” I’d imagine) wouldn’t vote for unity are valid but not insurmountable. I think the New Ireland Forum idea should be used to consider the realities and alternatives in a unification scenario (eg NICS pension scheme is run by NILGOSC and could continue as-is, like any other private investment fund). Let’s find out how that could work. Prior to Brexit NI had successfully argued its case to get corp tax devolved, and developed its own business case to remove itself from the London teat, even if only in part. Take that a few steps further. A civic-led forum should explore the myths and realities.
Thank you.

As regards the socio-economic factor, yes, these could be surmounted as you say, but the task is harder than, say, 15 years ago than it is now, essentially for three reasons:
1. The Celtic Tiger is no longer roaring so loudly as previously, so Dublin must be less able/willing to take on the burden than before;
2. With the entry of so many new countries (plus the loss of the UK's contribution), the economic balance of the EU has changed, such that ROI is no longer a net financial beneficiary, nor is it likely to become one again any time soon;
3. Covid-19. No government anywhere in  the world is going to take on extra financial commitments it doesn't absolutely have to, including the one in Dublin. Whereas for better or worse, Westminster is stuck with NI and knows it.

Your point on how nationalists are happy that under the GFA they can claim their Irishness grossly misunderstands the impact of Brexit and DUP identity nonsense on this group. Brexit has/will force us to be treated in many respects in the same way as Finchley or Great Yarmouth or Sunderland. You seemingly fail to see the impact this has and will have on nationalists who are being  forced into something by Britain.
If you tell me that I've got it wrong as to the reasons why a section of the Nationalist population in NI either wouldn't vote in a Referendum, or would vote to stay, then fair enough: you doubtless understand their thinking better than me.

But it still doesn't detract from my central thesis that they would still either abstain to vote to remain.

As for Brexit, the vote was in 2016, and has had only a limited effect on Nationalist thinking over a UI, and none whatever on Unionist thinking.

Proof of this comes in the various opinion polls which have been conducted since eg this one from October 2017
(https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/ (https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/)), or the BelTel one I quoted previously, from February 2020.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Snapchap on July 22, 2020, 04:41:29 PM
"Well they haven't gone away, you know", as someone famously said, even if the late Bobby Storey has:



You stay classy.  ::)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Franko on July 22, 2020, 05:03:49 PM
EG, I enjoy reading your posts on this topic.
The socio-economic points you list as being a large part of why nationalists (and “other” I’d imagine) wouldn’t vote for unity are valid but not insurmountable. I think the New Ireland Forum idea should be used to consider the realities and alternatives in a unification scenario (eg NICS pension scheme is run by NILGOSC and could continue as-is, like any other private investment fund). Let’s find out how that could work. Prior to Brexit NI had successfully argued its case to get corp tax devolved, and developed its own business case to remove itself from the London teat, even if only in part. Take that a few steps further. A civic-led forum should explore the myths and realities.
Thank you.

As regards the socio-economic factor, yes, these could be surmounted as you say, but the task is harder than, say, 15 years ago than it is now, essentially for three reasons:
1. The Celtic Tiger is no longer roaring so loudly as previously, so Dublin must be less able/willing to take on the burden than before;
2. With the entry of so many new countries (plus the loss of the UK's contribution), the economic balance of the EU has changed, such that ROI is no longer a net financial beneficiary, nor is it likely to become one again any time soon;
3. Covid-19. No government anywhere in  the world is going to take on extra financial commitments it doesn't absolutely have to, including the one in Dublin. Whereas for better or worse, Westminster is stuck with NI and knows it.

Your point on how nationalists are happy that under the GFA they can claim their Irishness grossly misunderstands the impact of Brexit and DUP identity nonsense on this group. Brexit has/will force us to be treated in many respects in the same way as Finchley or Great Yarmouth or Sunderland. You seemingly fail to see the impact this has and will have on nationalists who are being  forced into something by Britain.
If you tell me that I've got it wrong as to the reasons why a section of the Nationalist population in NI either wouldn't vote in a Referendum, or would vote to stay, then fair enough: you doubtless understand their thinking better than me.

But it still doesn't detract from my central thesis that they would still either abstain to vote to remain.


As for Brexit, the vote was in 2016, and has had only a limited effect on Nationalist thinking over a UI, and none whatever on Unionist thinking.

Proof of this comes in the various opinion polls which have been conducted since eg this one from October 2017
(https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/ (https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/)), or the BelTel one I quoted previously, from February 2020.

 ;D

"I will concede that the reasons I gave for having this opinion are nonsense.  In no way does that lead me to consider changing said opinion"


Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: trueblue1234 on July 22, 2020, 05:05:15 PM
EG, I enjoy reading your posts on this topic.
The socio-economic points you list as being a large part of why nationalists (and “other” I’d imagine) wouldn’t vote for unity are valid but not insurmountable. I think the New Ireland Forum idea should be used to consider the realities and alternatives in a unification scenario (eg NICS pension scheme is run by NILGOSC and could continue as-is, like any other private investment fund). Let’s find out how that could work. Prior to Brexit NI had successfully argued its case to get corp tax devolved, and developed its own business case to remove itself from the London teat, even if only in part. Take that a few steps further. A civic-led forum should explore the myths and realities.
Thank you.

As regards the socio-economic factor, yes, these could be surmounted as you say, but the task is harder than, say, 15 years ago than it is now, essentially for three reasons:
1. The Celtic Tiger is no longer roaring so loudly as previously, so Dublin must be less able/willing to take on the burden than before;
2. With the entry of so many new countries (plus the loss of the UK's contribution), the economic balance of the EU has changed, such that ROI is no longer a net financial beneficiary, nor is it likely to become one again any time soon;
3. Covid-19. No government anywhere in  the world is going to take on extra financial commitments it doesn't absolutely have to, including the one in Dublin. Whereas for better or worse, Westminster is stuck with NI and knows it.

Your point on how nationalists are happy that under the GFA they can claim their Irishness grossly misunderstands the impact of Brexit and DUP identity nonsense on this group. Brexit has/will force us to be treated in many respects in the same way as Finchley or Great Yarmouth or Sunderland. You seemingly fail to see the impact this has and will have on nationalists who are being  forced into something by Britain.
If you tell me that I've got it wrong as to the reasons why a section of the Nationalist population in NI either wouldn't vote in a Referendum, or would vote to stay, then fair enough: you doubtless understand their thinking better than me.

But it still doesn't detract from my central thesis that they would still either abstain to vote to remain.

As for Brexit, the vote was in 2016, and has had only a limited effect on Nationalist thinking over a UI, and none whatever on Unionist thinking.

Proof of this comes in the various opinion polls which have been conducted since eg this one from October 2017
(https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/ (https://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2017/10/26/news/opinion-poll-finds-one-third-in-favour-irish-unity-1171518/)), or the BelTel one I quoted previously, from February 2020.

There are polls that say differently. I mentioned Lord Ashcroft's survey - https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/09/my-northern-ireland-survey-finds-the-union-on-a-knife-edge/ which ahs a 51% to 49% in favour.

Also the Lucis talks polls discuss the impact of Brexit and would appear to be significant. https://2514bea3-91c5-415b-a4d7-2b7f18f64d4f.filesusr.com/ugd/024943_c045b5bf2425450fb00275818eab9733.pdf

I think you are severely underestimating the impact of Brexit. Before it I never believed I would see a UI. Now I do.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 22, 2020, 05:10:44 PM
Why is Brexit so pivotal? With the Republic caught on the hook this week for €16 billion, I suspect that support for EU membership will wane down here over the next while as cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19 start to bite.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Franko on July 22, 2020, 05:17:29 PM
Why is Brexit so pivotal? With the Republic caught on the hook this week for €16 billion, I suspect that support for EU membership will wane down here over the next while as cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19 start to bite.

Yeah, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

When Irish people watch the "cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19" that the UK will inevitably introduce, it would take some snake oil salesman to convince them that the fault for this lies with the EU.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 22, 2020, 05:27:51 PM
Would I be right in thinking that some people from the Nationalist side would have been content enough with the status quo in 2915 but Brexit and the DUPUDA trying to re establish 1 party rule during 2016 has sent them back to their roots and would vote overwhelmingly for a UI now?

As for 5 points....the right wingers are sputtering all over the place the last few days trying to convince themselves that we want to leave the EU.


Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 22, 2020, 05:30:12 PM
Why is Brexit so pivotal? With the Republic caught on the hook this week for €16 billion, I suspect that support for EU membership will wane down here over the next while as cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19 start to bite.

Yeah, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

When Irish people watch the "cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19" that the UK will inevitably introduce, it would take some snake oil salesman to convince them that the fault for this lies with the EU.

You know all those surveys tend to be paid for by the EU?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 22, 2020, 05:31:20 PM
As for 5 points....the right wingers are sputtering all over the place the last few days trying to convince themselves that we want to leave the EU.

I didn't say that or anything like it. I did pose a question which nobody has yet answered. I'll wait.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 22, 2020, 05:47:38 PM
Would I be right in thinking that some people from the Nationalist side would have been content enough with the status quo in 2915 but Brexit and the DUPUDA trying to re establish 1 party rule during 2016 has sent them back to their roots and would vote overwhelmingly for a UI now?

As for 5 points....the right wingers are sputtering all over the place the last few days trying to convince themselves that we want to leave the EU.

That’s a popular narrative - I.e. nationalists had forgotten themselves and were happy to be patted on the head.

Again, I think what they would have said in a Belfast telegraph survey and done in a real life border poll would have been (and will be) night and day.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 22, 2020, 07:04:29 PM
Belfast Telegraph polls always skew to the unionist side.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 22, 2020, 11:09:40 PM
https://uclspp.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0B5YWEzSSbGiuSF (https://uclspp.eu.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0B5YWEzSSbGiuSF)

Public consultation on referendum - l just saw this tonight. Needs a good bit of thought.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Franko on July 22, 2020, 11:41:28 PM
Why is Brexit so pivotal? With the Republic caught on the hook this week for €16 billion, I suspect that support for EU membership will wane down here over the next while as cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19 start to bite.

Yeah, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

When Irish people watch the "cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19" that the UK will inevitably introduce, it would take some snake oil salesman to convince them that the fault for this lies with the EU.

You know all those surveys tend to be paid for by the EU?

Lol, a cracking response.  The Czechs must have stiffed them on the bill. 😂
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 22, 2020, 11:49:31 PM
As regards the socio-economic factor, yes, these could be surmounted as you say, but the task is harder than, say, 15 years ago than it is now, essentially for three reasons:
1. The Celtic Tiger is no longer roaring so loudly as previously, so Dublin must be less able/willing to take on the burden than before;
2. With the entry of so many new countries (plus the loss of the UK's contribution), the economic balance of the EU has changed, such that ROI is no longer a net financial beneficiary, nor is it likely to become one again any time soon;
3. Covid-19. No government anywhere in  the world is going to take on extra financial commitments it doesn't absolutely have to, including the one in Dublin. Whereas for better or worse, Westminster is stuck with NI and knows it.

The ROI economy remains the fastest growing in W. Europe, even this year it grew at 1.2% in Q4 despite being lockded down for the last fortnight. NI has little prospect of growing 1.2% in a year, so the gap is continuing to grow. EU contributions are a relatively small part of the budget and of course in a UI they would probably disappear for a few years. Covid is an issue, but please God Covid will be sorted this time next year by one of the 100+ vaccines and a UI is not going to happen in that timescale.



Quote from: Evil Genius
Brexit, the vote was in 2016, and has had only a limited effect on Nationalist thinking over a UI, and none whatever on Unionist thinking.

I tihink you underestimate the effect on nationalist and "middle of the road" thinking. In its geographic position the EU was an ideal entity for NI, a neutral body to conduct necessary coordination of practical matters on this island without bringing politics into it. The unionist population voted against the EU that was benefiting them in an attempt to overthrow the GFA. This made it clear to everyone else that NI had no future in its present configuration.

Your selective use of polls ignores the many that show a marked change after 2016, for example the Ashcroft poll



that said, the union is still safe among the OAPs.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rois on July 23, 2020, 07:52:44 AM
Would I be right in thinking that some people from the Nationalist side would have been content enough with the status quo in 2915 but Brexit and the DUPUDA trying to re establish 1 party rule during 2016 has sent them back to their roots and would vote overwhelmingly for a UI now?


That’s a popular narrative - I.e. nationalists had forgotten themselves and were happy to be patted on the head.

Again, I think what they would have said in a Belfast telegraph survey and done in a real life border poll would have been (and will be) night and day.
There's truth in both of these in my experience - some nationalists wouldn't have pushed too hard for a border poll/UI before Brexit - though if it happened, I dare say they'd have voted with their hearts in favour. of a UI  The narrative has now changed with the Brexit vote in terms of how vocal and active this previously silent bunch are getting.  I count myself in this group. 
So the results of a border poll may not have been much different, but the determination/restlessness to bring it about has definitely strengthened. 
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 23, 2020, 08:21:37 AM
I would feel exactly the same Rois. Brexit is a game changer for me. To me it should also show to unionists how little the DUP actually care about them and how it's all about themselves and feathering their own nests.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 23, 2020, 08:39:56 AM
I would feel exactly the same Rois. Brexit is a game changer for me. To me it should also show to unionists how little the DUP actually care about them and how it's all about themselves and feathering their own nests.

I think we (nationalists) always knew the DUP feathered their nests but their dogma in wanting to align with the very right wing of the torys and even Aaron Banks and the likes should be a wake up call for unionists but as we haven't really felt the pain of Brexit as yet I think those types of unionists will look to their pockets and maybe consider a UI just like some small n nationalists who would maybe have wavered slightly on a UI will be reinforced.

Shinners should be out with their appeasement rhetoric to at least attempt to win them over, but then Martina and Francie will open their gobs...
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: JPGJOHNNYG on July 23, 2020, 08:47:55 AM
I would feel exactly the same Rois. Brexit is a game changer for me. To me it should also show to unionists how little the DUP actually care about them and how it's all about themselves and feathering their own nests.

As if that will make a difference. They still vote for IPJ in their droves to despite all his antics. Neighbours of my parents in SB who seem on face value moderate at the 2017 GE said they were voting DUP to keep SF out. SF didnt have a hope in that seat. UUP and Alliance were standing but didnt get a mention. Of course the real reason was DUP pengelly was still prefereable even than moderate SDLP in their minds and in that election it worked
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 23, 2020, 08:57:46 AM
Hopefully that was a lesson to south belfast. There shouldn't be  a DUPer in south belfast.

Eventually they will waken up. Currently the policy is basically if you don't vote for us SF will get in and in a lot of areas it is working. Eventually that has to die out - hopefully anyway.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Main Street on July 23, 2020, 09:37:01 AM
NI is hardly any less a "viable concern" than (post-oil) Scotland, Wales or large parts of England. Though all have thrived at various times in the past, and who knows, could be so again.

Likewise, who would have thought as recently as the late 1970's/early 1980's that the Republic, which had always been an economic basket case throughout its existence, would be the economic success story it is now?

in any case, we are where we are, and if NI were to join a UI in such circumstances, who is going to foot the bill?

Dublin? I think not.

The EU? Just ask eg the Greeks what they think of your chances there!

A dowry from Westminster? Good luck with that one.

Or maybe you're expecting a letter from America any day now?
You are 7 years behind the times when it comes to EU  and ECB economic policy since 2013.
The Greek fiscal deficit was  +1%   last year.
 NI's fiscal deficit since  the turn of the century is about - 35%  to -38% on average. Year in year out in NI, the difference between income and expenditure  hovers around the 10bn mark for the last 20 years
All this GBP 200bn paid for by the extending the UK national debt by 200BN to a total of 2Tn.
The EU stood solid in support of the GFA,  in fact George Mitchell claimed recently that there would have been no GFA but for the EU. 
Why do you think the EU would not stand behind and support a UI referendum and offer solid support should the outcome be a  ‘positive’ yes to a UI? The  ECB could purchase  Irish Gov bonds at zero interest  ad infinitum for years..

Quote
And while I accept that that might be possible in time and  without causing a violent backlash, it is never going to happen while there is a chance we may be entrusting our future to a government in Dublin in which SF has power and influence.

For the dogs on the streets know that SF in Dublin take their orders from SF in Belfast, who in turn take their orders from The Army Council.

And the Council? "Well they haven't gone away, you know", as someone famously said, even if the late Bobby Storey has:

The old Unionist bogeyman use to be Roman Rule and the harlot Pope whose apparent goal in life was to destroy all Ulster protestants after raping all the women. Now this bogey is replaced by the hidden demonic hands of the old ageing IRA council, as they depart one by one (socially distant) to their hereafter.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 23, 2020, 09:55:10 AM
The EU stood solid in support of the GFA,  in fact George Mitchell claimed recently that there would have been no GFA but for the EU. 

Mitchell is talking through his behind sadly. The EU barely lifted a finger to assist the cause of peace and in its predecessor EC & EEC forms tolerated 20 years of the Troubles and did nothing in response.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: five points on July 23, 2020, 10:05:29 AM
Why is Brexit so pivotal? With the Republic caught on the hook this week for €16 billion, I suspect that support for EU membership will wane down here over the next while as cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19 start to bite.

Yeah, that's not likely to happen any time soon.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html

When Irish people watch the "cutbacks and tax hikes arising from Covid-19" that the UK will inevitably introduce, it would take some snake oil salesman to convince them that the fault for this lies with the EU.

You know all those surveys tend to be paid for by the EU?

Lol, a cracking response.  The Czechs must have stiffed them on the bill. 😂

Laugh away. This was a Eurobarometer poll, bought and paid for by the European Parliament.

https://ec.europa.eu/commfrontoffice/publicopinion/index.cfm

https://www.newstalk.com/news/80-irish-people-vote-stay-eu-poll-finds-852096

Quote

A new survey has shown that, if a referendum on EU membership were held tomorrow, 83% of people in Ireland would vote to remain.

This is the second highest result in the EU, after the Netherlands.

The European Parliament survey
found that 8% here would vote to leave the bloc, while 9% were not sure.

While the same question asked in Britain saw 35% saying they would vote to leave the bloc, 53% would remain and 12% were not sure.

The Spring 2019 Eurobarometer was conducted three months ahead of the European elections.

Some 68% of respondents across the EU27 believe that their countries have benefited from being part of the EU.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 23, 2020, 10:55:13 AM
I would feel exactly the same Rois. Brexit is a game changer for me. To me it should also show to unionists how little the DUP actually care about them and how it's all about themselves and feathering their own nests.

I think we (nationalists) always knew the DUP feathered their nests but their dogma in wanting to align with the very right wing of the torys and even Aaron Banks and the likes should be a wake up call for unionists but as we haven't really felt the pain of Brexit as yet I think those types of unionists will look to their pockets and maybe consider a UI just like some small n nationalists who would maybe have wavered slightly on a UI will be reinforced.

Shinners should be out with their appeasement rhetoric to at least attempt to win them over, but then Martina and Francie will open their gobs...

I think we all thought the DUP would feather their nests but that in general their voters would act to support the union, yet they all rolled in behind Brexit which is the biggest threat to the union since 1920. I find all of this very strange.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: imtommygunn on July 23, 2020, 10:58:41 AM
They were conned.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: armaghniac on July 23, 2020, 11:05:39 AM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Taylor on July 23, 2020, 11:29:56 AM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 23, 2020, 11:31:28 AM
Presumably DUPUDA and their voters thought Brexit would reintroduce a hard border and drive a wedge between 6 and 26?
Also of course it proved their überBritness.

When their annual heat period ends on 1st September will they have the brains to realise having a foot in the GB market and the 440m EU market is a unique positive for the North that they might be able to cash in on for the greater good?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 23, 2020, 11:36:56 AM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Taylor on July 23, 2020, 11:41:12 AM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.

I take your point but back then most people only ever knew poverty and tough times.

There is a new generation of people who have had disposable income for a long time - if that starts to change expect a major shift and God forbid an independent party who is not about the green or orange...........I thought Alliance were that party but they cant keep from getting caught up in the mire of the hatred
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 23, 2020, 01:29:29 PM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.

I take your point but back then most people only ever knew poverty and tough times.

There is a new generation of people who have had disposable income for a long time - if that starts to change expect a major shift and God forbid an independent party who is not about the green or orange...........I thought Alliance were that party but they cant keep from getting caught up in the mire of the hatred

Alliance are ok until you ask the important question: where do they stand on the union etc.?

All well being 'neutral' but no good when the elephant is in the room.  Only thing is that when their voters realise what will happen after Brexit, then they might think twice.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Rossfan on July 23, 2020, 01:52:15 PM
Weren't most Alliance voters anti Brexit?
They're also the ones who will in effect decide the "Border Poll".
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: LeoMc on July 23, 2020, 01:54:05 PM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.

I take your point but back then most people only ever knew poverty and tough times.

There is a new generation of people who have had disposable income for a long time - if that starts to change expect a major shift and God forbid an independent party who is not about the green or orange...........I thought Alliance were that party but they cant keep from getting caught up in the mire of the hatred

Alliance are ok until you ask the important question: where do they stand on the union etc.?

All well being 'neutral' but no good when the elephant is in the room.  Only thing is that when their voters realise what will happen after Brexit, then they might think twice.
On a day to day basis it is not the important question. Day to day most people are more concerned about whether their bins will be lifted and roads fixed than they are about who the leisure centre or play park is named after.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on July 23, 2020, 02:03:25 PM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.

I take your point but back then most people only ever knew poverty and tough times.

There is a new generation of people who have had disposable income for a long time - if that starts to change expect a major shift and God forbid an independent party who is not about the green or orange...........I thought Alliance were that party but they cant keep from getting caught up in the mire of the hatred

Alliance are ok until you ask the important question: where do they stand on the union etc.?

All well being 'neutral' but no good when the elephant is in the room.  Only thing is that when their voters realise what will happen after Brexit, then they might think twice.
On a day to day basis it is not the important question. Day to day most people are more concerned about whether their bins will be lifted and roads fixed than they are about who the leisure centre or play park is named after.

True - but you cannot deny that the constitutional question is the ever present undercurrent to every issue in the North.

It permeates literally everything - the area you live in, the school you go to, what your pass times are likely to be, what pub you drink in etc, etc, depressingly etc
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: The Boy Wonder on July 23, 2020, 02:17:03 PM
I'm not sure if "A Shared Home Place" (the story of Seamus Mallon RIP) has been mentioned earlier on this thread.
It's well worth a read given that he was a central figure in Nationalist politics for so long.

His views on a Border Poll are summarised here:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/seamus-mallon-warns-against-premature-border-poll-1.3894881 (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/seamus-mallon-warns-against-premature-border-poll-1.3894881)
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: marty34 on July 23, 2020, 03:01:10 PM
They were conned.

Something that nobody seems very annoyed about, no heads rolled in the DUP, there has been no reflection on the issue at all.
Mind you, the likes of Simon Hamilton left and the DUP haven't a great profile among the younger voters.

Armaghniac - no one is annoyed yet because nothing has really changed yet.

Just wait until January when they start to see changes and more importantly less money in their pockets.

The majority of people in NI care more about putting bread on the table than a political party - if you are hit in your pocket things change very quickly

It will make no difference.

Check out the stories about the pogroms in the shipyards in the 1920's - it's all about being more british than the british.  The mentality is always no, no, no.  Will never change.

Unionists have only the DUP now.  It's back to a one party outfit for them.  The UUP have been swallowed up. 

It really is a head count now.  All boils down to the numbers game.

I take your point but back then most people only ever knew poverty and tough times.

There is a new generation of people who have had disposable income for a long time - if that starts to change expect a major shift and God forbid an independent party who is not about the green or orange...........I thought Alliance were that party but they cant keep from getting caught up in the mire of the hatred

Alliance are ok until you ask the important question: where do they stand on the union etc.?

All well being 'neutral' but no good when the elephant is in the room.  Only thing is that when their voters realise what will happen after Brexit, then they might think twice.
On a day to day basis it is not the important question. Day to day most people are more concerned about whether their bins will be lifted and roads fixed than they are about who the leisure centre or play park is named after.

Bins will be collected regardless of who is in charge - roads will be fixed etc.

As time goes on, it's about the big question.  That's clear, especially since Brexit.  All about the numbers game.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: johnnycool on July 23, 2020, 07:12:54 PM
The EU stood solid in support of the GFA,  in fact George Mitchell claimed recently that there would have been no GFA but for the EU. 

Mitchell is talking through his behind sadly. The EU barely lifted a finger to assist the cause of peace and in its predecessor EC & EEC forms tolerated 20 years of the Troubles and did nothing in response.

All that EU peace fund money buys some amount of "community" workers..

The treat of that money being pulled softened to cough of a good few of them when there was a bit of agitation going on.

Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Sportacus on September 17, 2020, 11:17:08 PM
Colm is almost always angry. A wee bit of humour and charm would help him come across better.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on September 17, 2020, 11:27:40 PM
Colm is almost always angry. A wee bit of humour and charm would help him come across better.

I think he needs to be that way so SF can’t paint him as ‘soft’.

I actually think he is the most capable of all the leaders of the main parties at present.
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Windmill abu on September 17, 2020, 11:37:13 PM
Colm is almost always angry. A wee bit of humour and charm would help him come across better.

I think he needs to be that way so SF can’t paint him as ‘soft’.

I actually think he is the most capable of all the leaders of the main parties at present.

What has he done to justify your opinion that he is the most capable leader, other than to sell out the basic principles of the SDLP and form an alliance with a right wing capitalist party in the south?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on September 17, 2020, 11:52:00 PM
Colm is almost always angry. A wee bit of humour and charm would help him come across better.

I think he needs to be that way so SF can’t paint him as ‘soft’.

I actually think he is the most capable of all the leaders of the main parties at present.

What has he done to justify your opinion that he is the most capable leader, other than to sell out the basic principles of the SDLP and form an alliance with a right wing capitalist party in the south?

Fianna Fáil? It’s incorrect to put them as anything other than centrists - they are chameleons of the centre - they move left and right depending on what will get them elected. 

Capable - because he’s stopped the rot of the electoral forces of the the SDLP when they were in danger of extinction.

Capable -  because he is much more articulate on Brexit than any other leader, but most importantly much more articulate than the leader of his main electoral rival SF.

Capable - because he can brush away his failures quite swiftly and quietly. Remember the “vote for Mike and you’ll get Colum” bollocks...

Capable - because he can pivot from the above position to an alliance with a Republican Party of government in the 26 counties, whilst at the same time criticise the DUP for doing the same with the Tories.

Capable - because he is the most articulate opposition voice (amongst the main leaders) to dissident violence. He contains neither the hypocrisy of SF, or the back stiffening double speak of unionist parties.

Capable - because his opinion is the one that makes unionism most uncomfortable when he pipes up about a border poll - because he is credible and appealing to fence sitters.

Just my opinion, not gospel
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Angelo on September 18, 2020, 08:27:50 AM
Colm is almost always angry. A wee bit of humour and charm would help him come across better.

I think he needs to be that way so SF can’t paint him as ‘soft’.

I actually think he is the most capable of all the leaders of the main parties at present.

What has he done to justify your opinion that he is the most capable leader, other than to sell out the basic principles of the SDLP and form an alliance with a right wing capitalist party in the south?

Fianna Fáil? It’s incorrect to put them as anything other than centrists - they are chameleons of the centre - they move left and right depending on what will get them elected. 

Capable - because he’s stopped the rot of the electoral forces of the the SDLP when they were in danger of extinction.

Capable -  because he is much more articulate on Brexit than any other leader, but most importantly much more articulate than the leader of his main electoral rival SF.

Capable - because he can brush away his failures quite swiftly and quietly. Remember the “vote for Mike and you’ll get Colum” bollocks...

Capable - because he can pivot from the above position to an alliance with a Republican Party of government in the 26 counties, whilst at the same time criticise the DUP for doing the same with the Tories.

Capable - because he is the most articulate opposition voice (amongst the main leaders) to dissident violence. He contains neither the hypocrisy of SF, or the back stiffening double speak of unionist parties.

Capable - because his opinion is the one that makes unionism most uncomfortable when he pipes up about a border poll - because he is credible and appealing to fence sitters.

Just my opinion, not gospel

Hold on, did you refer to FF as a republican party?
Title: Re: The SDLP
Post by: Chief on September 18, 2020, 08:34:40 AM