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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:15:49 PM

Title: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:15:49 PM
Taken from Rte.ie
Sign of the times i suppose. The curse of Anglo Irish is having some knock on effect across all business sectors.

Tuesday, 30 March 2010 12:11

The High Court has appointed two joint provisional administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd.

Mr Justice John Cooke made the order following an application by lawyers on behalf of the Financial Regulator.

The application was made under the 1983 Insurance act.
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Michael McAteer and Paul McCann from Grant Thornton have been appointed by the High Court to act as the two joint provisional administrators.

They have been instructed to begin their work immediately.

The court heard the Regulator took this action following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs.

The development means the administrators will run the business as a going concern under different management in the interest of policy holders.

The Regulator now has an on-site presence in the company's offices.

The administrators will run only the general insurance businesss and Quinn's life insurance business remains unaffected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 12:21:17 PM
Jaysus, things not looking too good in Fermanagh at all these days, what with Division 4 Football, Kyle Lafferty about to win his second SPL medal etc. At least they'll never run out of water ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Tubberman on March 30, 2010, 12:21:43 PM
More to this than just another company getting into trouble due to the recession I reckon.
The Financial Regulator has requested this "following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs."

I think this is probably down to the enquiries into Anglo, and the 'arrangements' Sean Quinn had in place for his share-dealing shenanigans. Wait and see what comes out I suppose... 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 12:25:34 PM
Scary news day alright what with more money being pumped into the banks and building societies etc.
Country is well and truly donald ducked
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 12:25:46 PM
Little bit more detail from the Irish Times.  This affects Quinn Direct and Quinn Healthcare:

Administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance companies

IRISH TIMES REPORTERS

The High Court has this morning appointed provisional administrators to Quinn Insurance, owner of Quinn Direct and Quinn Healthcare, on an application by the Financial Regulator.

Mr Justice John Cooke installed Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Dublin accountancy firm Grant Thornton joint provisional administrators to the company in the High Court this morning after the Financial Regulator expressed serious concerns about the finances of the company and how it was being managed.

This in effect means that the State through the Central Bank and Financial Regulator has taken control of the country’s largest insurance company.

A spokesman for Quinn Group, the owner of Quinn Insurance, said that the company had no comment to make.

Lawyers for the regulator told the court it had been discovered that subsidiaries of the company had made guarantees in relation to the group’s assets in 2005 which has reduced the value of the assets by €448 million. Some directors of Quinn Insurance were unaware of the guarantees, lawyers for the regulator said.

The court heard the company had significantly breaches its solvency ratios. The company had moved from a position where it had an excess of assets over liabilities of more than €200 million to a position where it had €200 million of liabilities over assets.

The application was made by the regulator under the Insurance (No 2) Act 1983 this morning during a vacation sitting of the court. The act allows for a provisional administrator to be appointed on an ex parte  application, meaning only one side was represented.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 12:28:13 PM
Quinn Martin, are you not in administration yet? ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 12:30:01 PM
Quinn Martin, are you not in administration yet? ;D

Tony, I've been fecked since I bought shares in Eircom, way back in the day!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 12:35:08 PM
More to this than just another company getting into trouble due to the recession I reckon.
The Financial Regulator has requested this "following serious concerns about the way the group was managing its affairs."

I think this is probably down to the enquiries into Anglo, and the 'arrangements' Sean Quinn had in place for his share-dealing shenanigans. Wait and see what comes out I suppose...

i wonder how many more of the "golden ten" investors will end up on the scrap heap due to Seanie and his backroom deals. To be honest haven't much sympathy for them, but as usual it's these company's workers and the tax payer who wil be left in the lurch .We really live in a banana republic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:37:28 PM
Can anyone tell me what being "in administration" in the south means as I know it isn't a formal insolvency procedure as we know it in the UK.  The title of the thread is a bit misleading at the minute anyway.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on March 30, 2010, 12:40:48 PM
Next it'll be RYANAIR.

And as Rois asks what does this administration mean and what about people's insurance policies if it goes under or can't be sold?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bingobus on March 30, 2010, 12:41:21 PM
In the south its Examinership, more or less the same as administration in UK - company is deemed to be a going concern subject to some changes in structure ie debt restructure, shedding of jobs, new operations etc etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:46:10 PM
But it isn't in examinership - the administrators were appointed under insurance legislation, not insolvency legislation (not to say that that may be the next step). 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 12:49:28 PM
Not liking the sound of this at all!!!  :'(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 12:51:18 PM
Oh crap SS, right enough.  They've been ordered not to write any new business in the UK.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:20:52 PM
Sounds like theres been a bit of creative accounting, and these guys have been brought in to try to correct things. How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 30, 2010, 01:22:56 PM
Sounds like theres been a bit of creative accounting, and these guys have been brought in to try to correct things. How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

Not sure about all this accounting business but I work for a General/Commercial Insurance Broker and I would imagine this is massive news for us. . . Not looking forward to the amount of work that's going to be involved though :(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 01:25:52 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 01:28:29 PM
You a solicitor TG?

I'd imagine (hoping) things will continue as they are, as it's still being run as a going concern. I'm sure there'll be changes in the long run tho.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on March 30, 2010, 01:30:14 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?

The companies will continue to trade as normal and policies and claims are unaffected...at the moment.  The day to day management of the company has been taken out of its hands and it will be managed by the administrators until its house is in order.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 30, 2010, 01:32:18 PM
Do a load of insurance claims work for them wonder what way thats affected?

You're fucked - dont finish with that lad  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on March 30, 2010, 01:46:34 PM

Apparently they're not allowed to write any new UK policies but existing policyholders are unaffected.

I took this off the Quinn Group site:

Sean Quinn’s New Year Message to Staff and Customers
7 January 2009

Quinn Insurance has total assets of €2.1bn with over €900m in cash and bonds. It recently opened a new office in Cork and is due to open its newly constructed Navan office in May 2009. This gives it the platform for continued profitable growth in the coming years.


There must be something big going on if they claim to have €900m in cash at the start of 2009 and are in admin by early 2010
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 30, 2010, 01:49:10 PM
Apparently they are not allowed to write any business in 'mainland' UK but are still ok in the North and South... is this true? I wouldn't be too sure about the terms of going into administration or going concern etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 01:54:59 PM
They can't go "into administration" in the south in the same way that say Zavvi or Nortel were in administration.  I don't think this procedure yet gives them protection from creditors but it may be on the way depending on what the administrators find.  I think this appointment will lead to some discoveries though and will make the information gathering process easier. 

It'll be down to an Anglo thing whereby Quinn owes the state-controlled bank more than normal limits allowed.  A colleague of mine speculated that Anglo (and therefore the state) will swap some of the Quinn debt for equity and then sell off.  An interesting theory.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Sawyer on March 30, 2010, 01:59:57 PM
What about peoples insurance policies?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on March 30, 2010, 02:06:54 PM
this will prob not hit Quinns new venture in Manchester - the glass bottle company where he is due (or has started) producing botles for one of the worlds biggest drinks manufacturers.
I cant really rem all the details , but this venture was awaiting planning permission for 5 or more years and this was given before Christmas if my hazy mem serves correctly.
Meant to be Quinns new money making focal point if this is all true !

meanwhile, I expect Quinn Insurance will get a slap on the wrist, have to hand over some land/buildings to Nama/state and then be allowed carry on as normal - as they will not want the company to close down and lose jobs ...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on March 30, 2010, 02:12:49 PM
How does using something as collateral reduce its value though?

I presume it's down to who gets the first charge over the assets if they have to be liquidated, ie if the asset was a piece of land, and it was sold, who gets first call on the proceeds.  So if a subsidiary borrowed money and secured it on this piece of land, it would not be available firstly to the insurance company, so it couldn't be included in their assets, or the value would be reduced by the sum that the bank has first call over. 

Is Quinn involved in the first transfer of loans to NAMA?  For some reason I don't think they are.  The Irish company won't close, it appears to be profitable, but requires a stronger asset base to continue so will need some sort of new capital, so a sale is possible. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 02:46:59 PM

Apparently they're not allowed to write any new UK policies but existing policyholders are unaffected.

I took this off the Quinn Group site:

Sean Quinn’s New Year Message to Staff and Customers
7 January 2009

Quinn Insurance has total assets of €2.1bn with over €900m in cash and bonds. It recently opened a new office in Cork and is due to open its newly constructed Navan office in May 2009. This gives it the platform for continued profitable growth in the coming years.


There must be something big going on if they claim to have €900m in cash at the start of 2009 and are in admin by early 2010


Lessons / tricks learned from Anglo -

Now you see it - seconds later, now you don't !!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on March 30, 2010, 02:52:36 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2010, 03:05:41 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 03:28:06 PM
Quote
but this venture was awaiting planning permission for 5 or more years and this was given before Christmas if my hazy mem serves correctly.
Meant to be Quinns new money making focal point if this is all true !

Didn't this hit objections etc from Ardagh Glass - who coincidentally were the recipients of that largesse around the infamous IGB site sold for €410M in Ringsend!!!

Also from what I heard his new investments are all in the renewable energy sector.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 30, 2010, 03:32:02 PM
Firstly, this creates real fears for a lot of jobs, particularly in Cavan and Fermanagh and no one on here should be making light of that!

Secondly, someone asked about peoples insurance policies? Well, although it is a going concern and may stay as a going concern, we will see Quinn hemorrhage policies over the next while until everything is resolved satisfactorily. When you have the likes of Jill Kirby advising people to consider their options then they should be, this is not like Joe Duffy causing a run on the banks.

Thirdly, if Quinn did go to the wall it would have a huge affect on the Irish general insurance market where they are second only to Aviva. Never been a fan of them, but they did take on motor risks that other companies had no appetite for. If the other companies ended up having to take on these risks you can be damn sure that we will all see our motor premiums go up.

Lastly, it is no conincidence that this occurred on NAMA day and lets hope it it part of a move get all the bad news out there and dealt with and see just how much this state is going to to have to pay for the sins of a few!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: TacadoirArdMhacha on March 30, 2010, 03:32:58 PM
Will people be able to renew their NI policies? They sent me out a renewal quote and letter a few days back (think I've another few weeks of my current policy). Has it been announced if they'll be honouring renewal quotes?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: quit yo jibbajabba on March 30, 2010, 03:42:08 PM
In the exact same situation as TacadoirArdmacha; will someone please answer this man (and me :))
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 03:44:08 PM
Yeah you'll be fine TAM. They're still renewing policies in Ireland. It's only across the water that they are being stopped writing new policies.
I'd don't think this will have an affect on policy holders in Ireland to be honest. Or even in the UK, as it's only affecting the writing of new policies in the UK mainland.
In other words the renewal of policies and any claims process won't be effected in Ireland or NI.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on March 30, 2010, 04:15:32 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.

Where did you get your figures muppet? I thought his losses had crystalized at around the €1bn mark on the Anglo CFD, but I am very much open to correction! Going by the figures from their website the group as a whole were making €4/500m a year for the last few years. If thats the case, as massive a loss as it was, it was only maybe 3 yrs profit, and most of it was written off in 08 I think - causing a 400m profit to become a 400m loss.

 I can't understand how the guarantees, which seem to be made in 2005, and for which both the company and Quinn personally were fined for in 2008, are still in operation. Surely Quinn Insurance would have sorted that out after the knuckle wrap in 08?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 30, 2010, 04:18:32 PM
Yeah you'll be fine TAM. They're still renewing policies in Ireland. It's only across the water that they are being stopped writing new policies.
I'd don't think this will have an affect on policy holders in Ireland to be honest. Or even in the UK, as it's only affecting the writing of new policies in the UK mainland.
In other words the renewal of policies and any claims process won't be effected in Ireland or NI.

Insurance should be there that if the worst happens that you can be secure in the knowledge that your claim will be paid. If the regulator sought administrators because it had severe doubts over the companies capacity to meet its liabilities, then it does affect policy holders in Ireland!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 04:24:18 PM
The reason the administrator was called in was in reference to it's new business in the UK which it deems not profitable (Most down to accident management companies!!). There has been nothing to suggest that there is any problems with NI or Ireland.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 04:34:39 PM
Accident management companies is where the bucks are. Though to be fair Quinns were most efficient insurance company in dealing with any claims out of about the 15 or so i deal with.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 30, 2010, 04:40:26 PM
Don't they also sponsor the Late Late Show? Bet Pat Kenny's glad he got out when he did ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on March 30, 2010, 04:45:44 PM
Latest from UK

Existing Quinn Insurance PII cover still valid, says FSA

30 March 2010 | By Nicole Blackmore
The FSA has reassured UK advisers with professional indemnity insurance through Quinn Insurance Limited that their policies will remain valid despite the firm falling into administration.

The Financial Regulator in Ireland today announced that Quinn has been placed into provisional administration and, following an application to the High Court, joint provisional administrators have been appointed.

Quinn’s UK branch, Quinn Insurance Limited (UK) or Quinn Direct, specialises in motor and professional indemnity insurance and has now closed to new business. 

The Irish regulator and the FSA have confirmed that existing policyholders in the UK will continue to be covered.

Customers of the firm can continue to make claims and should continue to pay direct debits and premiums in the normal way.

The FSA says it will provide updates on its website as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 30, 2010, 04:47:48 PM
Accident management companies is where the bucks are. Though to be fair Quinns were most efficient insurance company in dealing with any claims out of about the 15 or so i deal with.

I don't know how they get away with some of the things they do. Ireland and NI are well behind the UK when it comes to the amount of these companies. You can't get away from them, they're advertising everywere on taxis, buses, radio etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: southdown on March 30, 2010, 04:54:57 PM
Quinn tend to pay out straight away on insurance claims and admit liability very early on in the hope of saving legal costs in the long term.  Maybe this policy has backfired on them.  Definitely a lot more accident management compnaies in mainland Britain, which may explain why their UK business is not going as well.  There is only one such company in NI which seems to do Quinn a lot of damage in it's own right.

I'm guessing the reason why there are more of these compnaies in the UK is down to less stringent rules on referral fees.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on March 30, 2010, 05:00:20 PM
There is more than one in NI at present.
Quinn are the one insurance company as i said though that dealt with everything asap. Negotiated quickly and paid out quickly
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 30, 2010, 06:30:11 PM
As a fermanagh native I find this news very worrying, only for Sean Quinn's group this area would have very little work. I'm sure people from other counties such as Cavan would feel the same.
I would not claim to be very knowledgable about financial affairs but if the regulator are appointing administrators it does not sound good.
Get Sean Quinn on the LateLate on Friday night to tell us the craic!

This is the so called real economy effect of the actions of the 'Captains of Industry'. So far it appears a single high risk gamble wiped out 4/5ths of Quinn's wealth (Anglo CFD). What we don't know is if there were any other gambles by Mr. Quinn. I hope not.

Where did you get your figures muppet? I thought his losses had crystalized at around the €1bn mark on the Anglo CFD, but I am very much open to correction! Going by the figures from their website the group as a whole were making €4/500m a year for the last few years. If thats the case, as massive a loss as it was, it was only maybe 3 yrs profit, and most of it was written off in 08 I think - causing a 400m profit to become a 400m loss.

 I can't understand how the guarantees, which seem to be made in 2005, and for which both the company and Quinn personally were fined for in 2008, are still in operation. Surely Quinn Insurance would have sorted that out after the knuckle wrap in 08?

Sindo I know, might be way off.

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15840.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=15840.0)

Despite making it to the top ten, Co Fermanagh man Sean Quinn is estimated to have lost a staggering €2.5bn (£2.2bn) supporting the now nationalised Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on March 30, 2010, 07:33:22 PM
Don't they also sponsor the Late Late Show? Bet Pat Kenny's glad he got out when he did ;D
Hilarious
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 30, 2010, 08:24:29 PM
I see Quinn has written to every minister in the dáil tonight complaining about  heavy handed tactics by the regulator. It seems the new regulator is trying to show there is new sheriff in town, which is no bad thing. If Quinn is clean in all his dealings he has nothing to worry about. it would be a brave politician to back him at the moment, he might be a massive employer and generate a lot of money in the country, but if there are any dodgy deals that may undermine his company and customers policies, good luck to the regulator. Light touch regulation and a "see no evil hear no evil govt." has cost us 50 billion so far,  to be paid for by ordinary Joe and Josephine and their kids and probably their kids as well. Its a pity there is no such crime as "economic treason".
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on March 30, 2010, 08:32:45 PM
Should we have a Tribunal?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 30, 2010, 09:05:06 PM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?


Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shrewdness on March 30, 2010, 11:53:20 PM
Was quoted 94 euros by FBD Insurance last November to renew insurance on the tractor.
Thought i'd try Quinn for a quote as i already had the car with them. They quoted me 333 Euros!!!!!!!

Changed my car insurance from them last week.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:53:20 AM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?


Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.
aye and that lesson in corporate governance and company legislation is one he should have picked up a long time ago - it's grand sailing a wee bit close to the wind when you're making glass and cement, but not every industry is the same and sometimes you actually have to abide by the legislation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 09:26:28 AM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 10:22:01 AM
Will people be able to renew their NI policies? They sent me out a renewal quote and letter a few days back (think I've another few weeks of my current policy). Has it been announced if they'll be honouring renewal quotes?

Hi Tam,

Things seem to have changed since yesterday. It looks like it might be starting to affect NI renewals aswell as UK so you might be as well giving customer service a buzz on 0850 850 0845 to see what they say.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Louth Exile on March 31, 2010, 10:50:00 AM
I see Quinn has written to every minister in the dáil tonight complaining about  heavy handed tactics by the regulator. It seems the new regulator is trying to show there is new sheriff in town, which is no bad thing. If Quinn is clean in all his dealings he has nothing to worry about. it would be a brave politician to back him at the moment, he might be a massive employer and generate a lot of money in the country, but if there are any dodgy deals that may undermine his company and customers policies, good luck to the regulator. Light touch regulation and a "see no evil hear no evil govt." has cost us 50 billion so far,  to be paid for by ordinary Joe and Josephine and their kids and probably their kids as well. Its a pity there is no such crime as "economic treason".

I agree with you wholeheartedly. The only way a Dail deputy could come out in support of Quinn is if it was a Cavan deputy making an effort to save jobs. Patrick "pussy cat" Neary and his "let the big boys do what they want" regulation is a huge part of the problem we ended up in. Economic Treason for Quinn, Fitzpatrick, Fingleton & Denis Casey!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:01:55 AM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 11:08:34 AM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.

What ever about anything else I think your being unfair to Quinn on this. Out of any of the big business men Quinn has always been one to put the cares of his workers pretty high up on his list. When alot of other companies were stream lining their businesses Quinn was a making a obvious effort to make the least amount of redundancies as possible. He was moving people from different sectors to try and stop him having to make redundancies. He has always shown loyalty to his employees. and for this I believe he should be commended especially in these times when it would have been easy to cut the workforce.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:18:20 AM
Didn't they hit Quinn with a massive fine there last year ?

Looks like someone is out to learn him a lesson or two.

I agree, but I don't agree with Bogball. Quinn Group has been thrown out some very harsh treatment in the last 12 months (which he accepted fairly) but if he did decide to pull the plug on the whole lot and relocate his business operations to Poland/India or where ever then I am pretty sure that would cost the Irish government quite a few bob. The business has been and remains a shining light in the Irish economy over the last 20 years and because the monies within are being used as the company see fit to make it run successfully (and this does not lie well with the regulator) they are being hit hard (maybe its because they can afford it?)

I don't see any harsh treatment anywhere, you break the rules you get punished, if this was happening for the past ten years, maybe we would be 50 billion better off. Quinn is all the the things you say, big employer etc. but i have a sneaking suspicion he saw the regulators train coming down the tracks when he doled out 40 million to each of his kids a while back. I even heard someone talkingon the radio today about the 5,500 people he employs in Ireland, how many breaks of all kinds has he received from Govt. bodies to create these jobs. If Quinn had to save himself or the 5.500 jobs, which would he pick, people are not employed by these companies becuase the likes of Quinn are civic minded individuals, its all about the bottom line and if there weren't any improper dealings thier jobs and the company would be fine as it is quite profitable. Would the regulator be in if there isn't something dodgy or grey going on? I think he has enough to be doing these days. Good on him, clean this messing up for once and for all and let's start again with some proper corporate governence.

What ever about anything else I think your being unfair to Quinn on this. Out of any of the big business men Quinn has always been one to put the cares of his workers pretty high up on his list. When alot of other companies were stream lining their businesses Quinn was a making a obvious effort to make the least amount of redundancies as possible. He was moving people from different sectors to try and stop him having to make redundancies. He has always shown loyalty to his employees. and for this I believe he should be commended especially in these times when it would have been easy to cut the workforce.

I'm sure that is the case, but i had a good friend of mine working in Anglo a couple of years ago would would have said the exact same thing about them, how many are on the dole due to their governence directly or in-directly? It Quinn goes tits up for any reason, it's the taxpayer who gets left the tab, we are still paying a 2 per cent levy on each insurance policy issued in this state since 1982 due to the PMPA fiasco. That is 28 years, add to that the 1 per cent levy stuck on by the governement to raise money, we are up to 3 per cent, if Quinn insurance gets in to bother for what ever reason, this will mean another 2 per cent levy to cover the cost of the company ( i was talking to a risk manager about this). So while Quinn may be a good employer is 5 per cent of all our policies for the next 28 years a good enough reason to leave him alone. Leaving people alone is why we are in this shit today.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on March 31, 2010, 11:26:53 AM
A timeline in the Indo today of the issues surrounding the arrival of the Administrators :

Looks like this has been in the pipeline for a while... The regulator is right that Quinn Insurance cannot be giving guaranteed to other Quinn companies, which could leave QI insolvent ...

October 17, 2008:

The Financial Regulator reaches a €3.25m settlement with QIL after it found "reasonable cause to suspect" that regulatory requirements had been breached.

Sean Quinn is also fined €200,000 and steps down as chairman and director of QIL.

November 2008 to December 2009:

QIL submits a series of financial recovery plans to the financial regulator resulting in a €70,000,000 capital injection into QIL to boost its solvency margin and ratio. Quinn later informs the regulator that it will fall below its solvency margin because expected UK profits did not materialise.

Quinn acknowledges its position is "unacceptable".

Christmas Eve, 2009:

QIL sends an email to the regulator advising that the larger Quinn Group needs a waiver from its financiers in relation to the group's 2009 year-end debt covenants. Debt covenants are agreements between a company and its creditors that the company should operate within certain limits.

January 18, 2010:

The regulator asks QIL to formulate contingency plans for implementation in the event of the failure of the entire Quinn Group.

March 12, 2010:

The regulator rejects plan, saying the investment returns are "very optimistic" and profit forecasts "unrealistic" and pens a letter to Mr Quigley, stating it is "unconvinced the plan is realistic, sustainable or prudent".

March 16, 2010:

Mr Quigley meets the regulator to discuss the March 12 letter. During meeting, regulator outlines concerns, among other things, about QIL's equity and property exposures. QIL submits a revised plan.

March 24, 2010:

QIL drops a bombshell when it informs the regulator about the existence of guarantees by four QIL subsidiaries of advances to the Quinn Group. A plan to release the guarantees is rejected by the group's lenders and note holders.

March 30, 2010:

The High Court appoints provisional administrators to QIL, placing Ireland's second largest insurer into effective state control.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 11:34:04 AM
Why are you putting the 5% levy at the foot of Quinn? The 3% levy already in place had nothing to do with QD.

Plus I've not mentioned anything about the administrator coming in. I'm just pointing out that Quinn has always been one to look after his work force. I'm sure he could have cut the costs of his call centres by relocating them elsewere but he's kept it within the local workforce. My comment was in response to your comment about his feelings regarding his workforce.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on March 31, 2010, 11:44:27 AM
I'm not putting 5 per cent at the foot of Quinn, but if we are a nation are willing to pay this amount( plus 50 billion) for light touch regulation and be regarded as the wild west of finance in western Europe, lets keep going the way we are. As i said earlier if Quinn was so concerned with his workers futures and their welfare, maybe he wouldn't have been so free and easy with this company's corporate goverence and staturory obligations thus putting his valued workers immeadiate futures in jeopardy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:53:12 AM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on March 31, 2010, 12:21:05 PM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 12:41:02 PM
But is not simply to do with guarantees and corss guarantees to associated companies which would now on paper seem to be taking away from the liquidity of the insurance business ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on March 31, 2010, 12:41:57 PM
I think the Irish banks have alot more to answer for than the Quinn Group and those t**ts are effectively being rewarded because they are above being punished  :-\ the Irish doing things arse about tit as usual
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:12:17 PM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 01:29:18 PM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?

I take exception to that!! ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 01:39:48 PM
Merely pointing out my own and a few others geograpical bias, before someone points it out for us in an attempt to rubbish our points :'(

Discerning people from other regions are available, of course: I particularly recommend supersarsfields!  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on March 31, 2010, 02:29:56 PM
Merely pointing out my own and a few others geograpical bias, before someone points it out for us in an attempt to rubbish our points :'(

Discerning people from other regions are available, of course: I particularly recommend supersarsfields!  ;)

Just got word that Quinns are not renewing any business in Northern Ireland anymore!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 02:50:21 PM
The regulators are now being ultra careful - they sat on their holes throughout the entire boom and let banks and developers etc do whatever the hell they liked and then the shit hit the fan.


The insurance regulator is now probably being ultra careful and potentially jumping the gun.

I don't know all the details but I'd say they're trying to put manners in Quinn.


Quinn I've no doubt will emerge from this but not without a kicking.
Quinn has undoubtedly been a boon for the fermanagh/cavan area, he's looked after the region well and it's heartening to see such an operation stay true to its roots and create local jobs etc.  But, as the lads say the way he operates we could all be left with a huge bill, the group or QIL will probably come out of this okay, I would think that some sacrifice might be required at the top of the operation though.

How?

It'd be nothing compared to the bill left if he pulled out of the region anyway. I know that all us fermanagh lads are on here defending him, and we're not exactly unbiased, but, most of the people I know at home work for some part of his operation, and noone who does ever has a bad word for it or him, I think that in itself is rare and while anecdotal, says something for me. I dont know much about the whole ins and outs, but he certainly did seem to be badly treated when that fat bitch Harney ran to make new laws to screw him after he bought into the healthcare market. Who was being unscrupulous there?

Believe me when I say I detest Harney, but that is a long way from what I remember at the time. Quinn bought in after the (albeit crazy) support scheme for VHI was announced.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 03:33:51 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:19:58 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on March 31, 2010, 05:23:23 PM
I think we'll hear a lot more tomorrow from Quinns perspective on recent events.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 05:30:11 PM
http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0201/bupa.html (http://www.rte.ie/business/2007/0201/bupa.html)


"But the Quinn Group says that, as a new entrant to the market, it will be exempt from these risk equalisation payments for the next three years."

Funnily enough that was early 2007. They knew all about the payments but were happy to have 3 good years before they kicked in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on March 31, 2010, 06:13:37 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.

 How can you read that as saying he didnt know about them?  ???

I'm saying that in my understanding he should have been exempt from the payments as a new entrant, and this would have been a strong reason supporting the purchase, but they changed the law after he bought it so that he did have to make said payments.

Is that or similar not the case?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 06:20:48 PM
I'm referring to the initial takeover of BUPA: This is vague because I cant remember the details, and dont have time to check them, but my understanding was that a big factor in his decision to buy was that he would be exempt from payments BUPA had to make to VHI, but the government subsequently rushed through legislation to change this? Sounded like an absolute disgrace I thought at the time...

BUPA pulled out because of the legislation, it can't possibly be claimed that he didn't know about it.

 How can you read that as saying he didnt know about them?  ???

I'm saying that in my understanding he should have been exempt from the payments as a new entrant, and this would have been a strong reason supporting the purchase, but they changed the law after he bought it so that he did have to make said payments.

Is that or similar not the case?

The risk equalisation law was there before he purchased BUPA. It was the reason BUPA left the Irish market.

 To me it looks as if he gambled that he could either be considered a new entrant and not pay for 3 years or that he could appeal the law.

Either way it was a gamble and he knew it going in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:31:20 PM
QUINN-group Ltd Press Release
 
QUINN-group Limited wishes to comment on the actions of the Financial Regulator yesterday to appoint provisional administrators to QUINN-Insurance Limited (QIL), which we consider to be pre-emptive, aggressive and unnecessary.
As a preliminary matter, we wish to confirm that the QUINN-group and QIL are fully able to meet all of their payment obligations, and (except as disrupted by the Regulator’s Actions) our business continues as normal. Policyholders of QUINN-direct, QUINN-life and QUINN-healthcare, and staff, customers and suppliers of the entire QUINN-group, should continue to deal with us as usual.
The Financial Regulator has justified his actions on the grounds of "certain matters within QIL that have very recently come to light". We understand that he is referring to guarantees provided by certain subsidiaries of QIL, some dating back to 2005, supporting the general indebtedness of the QUINN-group. These guarantees are entirely lawful, do not breach any insurance regulations, and were fully disclosed in the statutory accounts of the relevant companies.
We reviewed these guarantees in the context of our current refinancing, and sought the opinion of the Financial Regulator last week. He took the view that the guarantees were inappropriate. Since then we, our financiers and our respective advisers have been working around the clock to respond to the Regulator’s questions and to address his concerns. The guarantees have not been called upon, there was no reason to believe that they would be called upon, and the Regulator was provided with comfort on this by our financiers, most recently in a meeting on Monday 29 March. QUINN-group is in the process of negotiating a refinancing which would have addressed the concerns of the Regulator, and we and our financiers remain confident that this will be achieved. Therefore, the Regulator’s analysis that these guarantees give rise to a €448m liability is totally incorrect. The Regulator's demand that the guarantees be released was therefore unnecessary, and not practical in the time which he allowed.
In the light of all these facts, of which the Regulator was well aware, we believe the Regulator made the wrong decision. We do not believe that his decision was in the interests of any of the relevant stakeholders - QUINN-group, its staff, its customers or indeed the Irish Exchequer, which has received well in excess of €1bn in tax from QUINN-group since it was established in 1973. Indeed, we note that yesterday was marked by significant announcements in relation to the Irish economy and the banking sector, and it is highly ironic that, on that same day, the Regulator's action was taken in respect of one of the most successful Irish companies, providing crucial jobs in the export sector.
Even if the Regulator’s concerns in relation to QIL were well-founded (which we dispute), it is extraordinary that the Regulator was unwilling to give the necessary time to work through those concerns, rather than taking precipitate action which damages the interests of all stakeholders, including the State.
Separately the Financial Regulator has directed QIL to cease writing new business in the UK, and has commented that the UK business is currently unprofitable. We entirely disagree with this statement and unless reversed, this direction will be immensely damaging to the future prospects of QIL.
While we work through the issues which have been caused by the Financial Regulator’s actions, QIL remains focussed on the future and will continue to provide a high level of service to all of its customers. We thank our staff, throughout the QUINN-group and especially in QIL, for their continued commitment to the business. We remain totally committed to working with them, and our customers, to get through this difficult period.

Notes for editors:
1.   The QUINN-group employs 5,500 people in Ireland of which 2,700 are employed in QIL.
2.   The Group is (disregarding the effect of the Financial Regulator’s actions) on target to achieve cash profits of between €45m and €50m in the first quarter of 2010, and over €20m in each subsequent month during 2010, and between €1.1bn and €1.2bn over the next 3 years. How many Irish companies can say this today?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on March 31, 2010, 06:36:59 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on March 31, 2010, 06:59:59 PM
Imagine Anglo Irish bank was based in Carrick on Shannon. Which would be more important? Jobs in Leitrim or the interests of the taxpayer?  Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Emmett on March 31, 2010, 07:30:04 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on March 31, 2010, 07:37:56 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering

Iris Robinson?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on March 31, 2010, 07:48:03 PM
Sounds more like Mary Coughlan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on March 31, 2010, 09:20:23 PM
Assuming this lady was not a customer of QDI, was this phone call a case of Third Party Ire and Effed! ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on March 31, 2010, 11:00:00 PM
No renewals or new business can be taken on by Quinn Direct in NI or the UK as a result of this administration. Some major companies in the North are going to have to look elsewhere for insurance. We'r talking about tens of millions.
Jobs are gonna go.Cavan/Fermanagh/Monaghan/Longford/Leitrim is gonna be hit hard unless this decision is reversed.
But sure who gives a f**k about the border counties.

Glasgow Celtic Football Club are currently insured by Quinn Direct.

I work in QDI and my first call today was at 8.01am from a middle-aged "lady" demanding to speak to a manager. She refused to speak to me or a supervisor, it had to be a manager.
I reluctantly passed her through to an A.M. and he spoke to her. He called me and informed me that her exact words were "I would just like to say that I am absolutely f**cking delighted with what is happening to QD. You's are all just a shower of b**tards and I hope that you's go bust and all lose your jobs". She then hung up straight away.
The mentality of some people is bewildering


Where is the nearest asylum ?.  ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 01, 2010, 07:19:46 PM
Imagine Anglo Irish bank was based in Carrick on Shannon. Which would be more important? Jobs in Leitrim or the interests of the taxpayer?  Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.

So come in and put a perfectly functioning company that is making over 1 million a day into administration? Quinn Direct is perfectly solvent FFS.
The Financial Regulator is trying to make Quinn pay for his indiscretions in relation to Anglo-Irish because he is probably about the only man who has anything left. What is the Regulator doing with the rest of these large developers and Fianna Fail cronies who owe Anglo-Irish millions??

Is there an alterior motive here that the Government may be looking to take the whole operation over or is that possible?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on April 02, 2010, 08:50:03 AM
What about Mr. Quinn yesterday, he's openly admitting that he and his family lost 3 billion not the 1 billion assumed in the press from the Anglos share fiasco !!  Also he stated that he owes Anglo over 2 billion and that he had every intention of paying that back, with a plan in place.......QDI was making between 400-500 million a year !
But now this move by the regulator puts all that in jeopardy.................crazy decision in my eyes.............
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 09:09:05 AM
Quote
Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.

Is this not the issue?  We'd be crying if they couldn't pay their claims.  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on April 02, 2010, 09:54:35 AM
On "discovery" of the 448m of guarantees to other companies in the quinn group the assets of the insurance co went from approx +200m to- 200m. -200m is insolvent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 10:05:55 AM
On "discovery" of the 448m of guarantees to other companies in the quinn group the assets of the insurance co went from approx +200m to- 200m. -200m is insolvent.

200 Million in assets?? Where you getting these figures from?
The Regulator wanted QDI to be about 150% solvent, QDI was still 100% solvent. Either that or Sean Quinn lied to millions last night on RTE and made a liar out of the Regulator.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 10:10:06 AM
Quote
Sean Quinn is obviously a mighty man but he seems to have been playing around with corporate governance rules for some time.
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 10:16:29 AM
Either corporate governance rules apply to everybody (including Quinn) or nobody - Anglo is in the mess it's in because the Regulator ignored flagrant breaches of these rules (by folk including Quinn).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: phpearse on April 02, 2010, 10:59:11 AM
The reality is lads this is about the banks again. The banks are again putting the squeeze on business to make sure their own balance sheets look better. For months now I have heard of banks closing profitable business by the wothdrawal of facilities previously granted to them. Was chatting to an accountant the other day and he is loosing quite a few customers who have been trading profitably for years and suddenly banks have withdrawn overdraft facilities overnight. One business had it's overdraft facility withdrawn on a Friday and was forced to close on a Monday, despite an excellent trading history. Banks are purely acting in self interest.

What we now have is the banks putting the squeeze on big business as well as the SMEs. What is seems has happened here is that guarantees from Quinn Direct to other businesses in the Quinn Group, if called up could put pressure on the liquidity of QD. QD is not even technically insolvent, there exists the possibiliy in the future of being insolvent if all the guarantees to other businesses in the group need to be paid. But sure every business has the possibility of being insolvent at some stage in the future. Unless the Regulator knows something about the other Group businesses and their standing, it seems a curious move on the Regulators hehalf.

My feeling is that it is the banks that are pushing for this. The banks need to get cash and capital back into their balance sheets. The need to reduce their liabilities and what better way to do that than to withdraw lending facilities to SME and get cash in from big businesses that can afford to pay. They can't get money from the failed speculators (property developers - big and small) so they go after real businesses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 02, 2010, 11:03:20 AM
The reality is lads this is about the banks again. The banks are again putting the squeeze on business to make sure their own balance sheets look better. For months now I have heard of banks closing profitable business by the wothdrawal of facilities previously granted to them. Was chatting to an accountant the other day and he is loosing quite a few customers who have been trading profitably for years and suddenly banks have withdrawn overdraft facilities overnight. One business had it's overdraft facility withdrawn on a Friday and was forced to close on a Monday, despite an excellent trading history. Banks are purely acting in self interest.

What we now have is the banks putting the squeeze on big business as well as the SMEs. What is seems has happened here is that guarantees from Quinn Direct to other businesses in the Quinn Group, if called up could put pressure on the liquidity of QD. QD is not even technically insolvent, there exists the possibiliy in the future of being insolvent if all the guarantees to other businesses in the group need to be paid. But sure every business has the possibility of being insolvent at some stage in the future. Unless the Regulator knows something about the other Group businesses and their standing, it seems a curious move on the Regulators hehalf.

My feeling is that it is the banks that are pushing for this. The banks need to get cash and capital back into their balance sheets. The need to reduce their liabilities and what better way to do that than to withdraw lending facilities to SME and get cash in from big businesses that can afford to pay. They can't get money from the failed speculators (property developers - big and small) so they go after real businesses.

If this is the plan the country will quickly grind to a halt.

I'm not convinced this is what is going on but it does demonstrate the idiocy of allowing those who created the mess devise the solution.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 11:08:04 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 11:19:18 AM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

Exactly. The Quinn Group has paid over 1 Billion in taxes to the Exchequer. Greedy my arse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Billys Boots on April 02, 2010, 01:04:15 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:21:51 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:25:58 PM
GET UP,STAND UP.

To whom it may concern,
 
The decision last Tuesday 30th March to place Quinn Insurances Ltd (QIL) in provisional administration has far reaching implications for business and family life throughout this region, and indeed the whole country.  QIL is a very profitable indigenous business employing 2,700 people in its various offices in the island of Ireland and the UK.  The Quinn Group employs in excess of 5,500 people nationally, and has paid over a billion euro in taxes to the Irish exchequer since its foundation.
 
This administration process seriously puts at risk all of these jobs and the knock on effect on the local economy would be catastrophic.  We in Cavan Chamber of Commerce are organising a rally to take place on Wednesday 7th April 1, 2010 at 5.30pm in the Market Square, Main Street, Cavan in order to demonstrate our solidarity and support for Quinn Insurance, its employees and management and the wider Quinn Group.   
 
We strongly appeal to you, your colleagues, your families, friends and the public at large to acknowledge the value of the Quinn Group Businesses to the development of this region by attending this rally.  We are inviting all our public representatives to address this rally and listen to your voice.
 
Please pass this email onto everybody in your address book.
 
Yours sincerely,
 
Eamon McDwyer
President Cavan Chamber of Commerce
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 02, 2010, 01:27:11 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.

Watching Quinn last night it seemed he was referring to some agreement with the previous Regulatory administration. Those days are over and that administration is in disgrace. Quinn needs to be compliant with the current reality not the old one.

If his business is as profitable as everyone claims it will come out of this and the jobs will be fine.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 01:29:21 PM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??
  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

No but when you get involved in dodgy dealings to make yet more money than you could ever need or spend then that's going down the greed path...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 01:41:58 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Yes thats it. Sean Quinn is looking for a pat on the back. ::)

Quinn is probably the biggest employer in my area and that probably includes yours too Billy. Putting a fully functioning and profitable company into administration that is absolutely vital for employment to thousands of people in the region seems like madness to me. QDI had never defaulted on any of its loans or guarantees so why was this action taken?
To me this isn't about Sean Quinn,its about imminent and needless job losses in an area that is grossly neglected for far too long.
The powers that be have taken our trains,they build a Motorway all the way to the Cavan border outside Carnaross which is an insult to all Cavan people and now they are trying to damage the biggest employer in the region.

Watching Quinn last night it seemed he was referring to some agreement with the previous Regulatory administration. Those days are over and that administration is in disgrace. Quinn needs to be compliant with the current reality not the old one.

If his business is as profitable as everyone claims it will come out of this and the jobs will be fine.

They won't be fine. QDI has been ordered to stop taking any new business or renewals in the North and the UK becasue they are under a different regulator. That is probably half of Quinn Directs potential business gone.
There is a big difference in being compliant( which QDI was) and putting the company into administration. The new Regulator wants to get tough, fair enough, but this decision is just plain wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: whiskeysteve on April 02, 2010, 01:52:39 PM
These stringent new regulations are obviously a case of closing the stable door after the horse is bolted. But is it not also a case of closing the door when trying to get the horse back into the stable?

What I mean is these regulations should be put in place during the next 'upswing' (whenever that will be) and at this point in time we could actually do with SOME of the more lenient regulatory practices that got us here in the first place?

Sounds perverse in a way, i know, but seems to me that strict regulation should be enforced on a dynamic economy not flogging a shot horse, so to speak. Especially given the amount of self regulation in the economy right now, i.e. organisations shit feared or unable to invest in anything of a large scale (wider issue than those afflicting Quinn right now, i know)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: keeping an eye on things on April 02, 2010, 01:53:33 PM
So it's pats on the back for all who pay their taxes??

Plenty of Irish busniessmen are not registered in Ireland to get out of paying taxes to the state so I think paying 1 billion in taxes isn't to bad.


No but when you get involved in dodgy dealings to make yet more money than you could ever need or spend then that's going down the greed path...
[/quote]

Have you any evidence to back that up or can I mark that down as two stupid comments in a row?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 02, 2010, 02:04:26 PM
Lets just wait and see what happens over the next couple of weeks...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 02, 2010, 02:30:13 PM
It's just amazing what greed does to people. Started the business from scratch but not happy with being a multi millionaire. 

That's a pretty stupid comment to be honest, is every person who wants to expand their business and better themselves greedy??  ::)  If being greedy provides thousands of jobs to the local area he is from and involves paying a considerable amount of tax to the government maybe it's not a bad afflication

Did Quinn not describe himself/his group as being a bit greedy in the wake of the Anglo Irish shareholding fiasco??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lar Naparka on April 02, 2010, 02:40:30 PM
I don’t think I have anything relevant to say about the controversy at the moment. I simply don’t know any facts –plenty of opinions maybe but enough people are doing that already so I’ll just say I haven’t a clue as to which party is in the right in this matter.
But we did have a somewhat similar situation over 25 years ago when PMPA was the dominant player in the Irish insurance market sector. The man behind it was Joe Moore and he was in the Michael O’Leary mould. He had built up his business in a very short time and PMPA was offering far better packages than its competitors in both the car and house insurance business.
Out of the blue, the administrators went in. I think Moore arrived to work one morning to find a stranger in his office.  He was certainly barred there and then from involvement of any sort in his company’s affairs.
The fuss was even greater than what is going on now. I think it’s fair to sat that public sympathy was solidly behind Moore as he went on the attack, claiming there was nothing whatever wrong with his companies’ finances and blaming Dessie O’Malley, the minister responsible for a private vendetta against him.
O’Malley had little or nothing to say in reply and he took an unmerciful pasting from Moore and his allies.
However, when the investigators produced their report, it was obvious that O’Malley hadn’t acted a moment too soon as Moore was running the show as a personal fiefdom and genuinely seemed to be unable to grasp the basics of accountancy.
O’Malley was vindicated then and it was clear that he had decided to refrain from public comment to let the law follow its course.
Sean Quinn does seem to be a decent individual and I know a few who work for his companies and they all say he is a decent man and quite fair in his dealings with his employees. Unlike Joe Moore, he is not a showman and he seems to have a good business brain. I couldn’t imagine him making a mess of his books in the manner of Moore.
Still, I doubt that the administrators were sent in lightly. I think it will take a good while yet before the picture becomes clear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 03:06:17 PM
I don't know the facts-do you? Does anybody with an unbiased opinion know them who can tell the public?
I don't know why QDI has been put into administration (as above)
I can't comment on the last question but let's just see how many other witchunts there might be in the coming months.
My point was that the chamber didn't make reference to any of the above. It just said protest against what might be catastophic. A bit narrow-minded I'd have thought.
To the main thread.......................
 
Why in gods name would the Cavan Chamber of Commerce make any reference to Anglo-Irish or anything else. Their brief and function is to protect and grow businesses in Cavan and it has the cop on to realise that this move could be catastrophically bad for alot of businesses in Cavan. You admit you don't know the facts Lawrence yet you still see fit to pass question over an organisations decision to support the employees of Quinn Direct and the company as a whole.
Now thats narrow-minded.

Do you think if something like this happened down in Cork and a few thousand jobs were at risk that people would be saying ''Oh lets wait and see what comes out of it,sure the regulator must be right'' Would they f**k. They would be out marching on the streets and kicking up a stink. Cavan people are too nice and we get walked over as a result.

As I said before,This isn't about Sean Quinn,its about standing up for an area that in alot of cases seen no Celtic Tiger. Cavan needs Quinn Direct and no matter what Sean Quinn did or did not do in relation to Anglo-Irish,this is a company that is fully functioning and making a profit and at the same time employing 900 hundred people in Cavan. Every person can make their own mind up but that for me is enough to support the workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
Fuckin hell Boojangles, calm yourself.
I admit I don't know the facts and I question (not condemn) an organisation for acting in a way that befits that the Quinn Group is completely innocent. I don't think that's narrow-minded. If a company was shut down for using child labour would the Chamber of Commerce come out and rally against the closure because other people's jobs would be at risk or would they take all the facts and use their influence for the best all-round outcome?
The thing is, some bad findings my come out of this whole issue in the coming weeks and the likes of the Cavan Chamber might look a little silly.
I think I'll stay quiet on this as even pleading ignorance seems to irk you. >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 02, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
Fuckin hell Boojangles, calm yourself.
I admit I don't know the facts and I question (not condemn) an organisation for acting in a way that befits that the Quinn Group is completely innocent. I don't think that's narrow-minded. If a company was shut down for using child labour would the Chamber of Commerce come out and rally against the closure because other people's jobs would be at risk or would they take all the facts and use their influence for the best all-round outcome?
The thing is, some bad findings my come out of this whole issue in the coming weeks and the likes of the Cavan Chamber might look a little silly.
I think I'll stay quiet on this as even pleading ignorance seems to irk you. >:(

You didnt plead ignorance Lawrence, you questioned the Chambers decision to support QDI on the Cavan thread without any evidence to back up what you were implying.At the moment I do not trust the current government in any way, and I think most people have the right to feel the same.
I posted that email to let people make their own mind up as I see it as a way of supporting fellow Cavan people.

Child labour?? Bit of an extreme comparsion do you not think.The Chamber will not look silly I can guarantee you that.They are supporting their own and Fair play to them I say. If some bad findings come out of this then I'l apologise to ya.But I am 90% sure that this action from the Regulator will be proved to be wrong.
I'm sorry for coming across angry but this has hit a nerve.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 04:32:06 PM
It obviously has hit a nerve and that's fine, I don't know your position.
But in questioning the chamber it may have come across as if I was criticising them. Maybe they do know more than I do but it seemed like a lob-sided statement from them. So in questioning, I was doing just that so I don't think I need evidence when I am seeking it with the question.
No need to apologise. Keep that aggression for Sunday in Cootehill ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: anglocelt39 on April 02, 2010, 05:00:55 PM
In fairness Lawrence it tends to be the job of chambers countrywide to make lopsided statements at the best of times, which this isn't You're hardly expecting the Cavan Chamber to appoint itself as a quasi financial regulator on this one? Though mind they mightn't do a worse job than what we've had on that front over the past several years.

I haven't been able to get myself familiar with the story yet  so really can only limit myself to the blindingly obivous. Absolute potential hammer blow for an area that has been ignored by successive governments for god knows how long. Potentially serious social and sporting consequences and I don't blame local groups one bit for trying to mobilise support. I know that over the past several years Sean Quinn had been sucked in by the schiesters that made up the Anglo Irish Bank set and clearly he has taken an absolute monster hit, The fact that the business is in a private company and handling something as far reaching as the insurance sector has probably got the regulators extra worried, unfortunately.

Anyway, my very best wishes to all affected by this and hoping for some sort of a satisfactory outcome.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lawrence of Knockbride on April 02, 2010, 05:20:23 PM
Fair enough lads but all I'm saying is that bodies involved in disputes such as this would usually take a rounded view of all apects before making a statement. Now maybe they have more to say and they will in the future but it just seemed a little odd to me. Anyway, time will tell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
I was listening to the economics correspondent for the Irish Independent this morning on rte radio 1 and he was saying that this has been talked about for about 2 years and is NOT the bolt out of the blue that Sean Quinn claims that it is.

He said that he did have sympathy with Sean Quinn's position but that the state of Quinns other businesses were not as profitable as they once were and that the guarantees given by the insurance arm in respect of other loans to other businesses were the problem.

He said that Sean Quinn is well aware of the problems with the ratios in relation to Quinn Insurance.

He reckoned that it is the debt to Anglo Irish of €2.8 billion that is the big concern, i.e that Anglo don't get their money back.

The thing that strikes me is this : why did Sean Quinn give his children €200m between them just a few months ago ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 05:44:22 PM
Because he could.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 06:26:09 PM
Because he could.

That may be alright.

But would this €200m not have sorted a lot of this current mess out ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 02, 2010, 07:39:51 PM
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices. I think someone is trying to get one back at Quinn.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 02, 2010, 10:51:55 PM
I have a lot of time for Sean Quinn. He rose from modest beginnings to head a huge empire and employ 1000's of people. He never moved to far from where he came from and until very recently lived in a modest home. Now no doubt he was at some dodgy dealings but unlike many of the others he has the ability to pay it back. I have no doubt he will and he'll continue to make money and jobs. QD is a very profitable company and I can't fathom why this was done, a shot across the bows of the high flyers perhaps? But at the end of the day the regulator is messing with 1000's of jobs and it seems like a rash decision to me. What say Cavans useless minister Smith or should I say what is he reading from his pre prepared script?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 02, 2010, 10:56:47 PM
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices. I think someone is trying to get one back at Quinn.





Correct.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 03, 2010, 02:16:36 AM
Quote
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 03, 2010, 10:58:58 AM
Quote
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.

I think this is correct. The conspiracy theory about someone out to get Quinn doesn't wash. It seems he is struggling to survive proper regulation and I suspect there will be a lot of other Irish-based companies who will also struggle with tighter regulation.

I would like to see this new breed of competent oversight extended to other industries.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 11:52:55 AM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 03, 2010, 12:00:25 PM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.

If that were the case surely Quinn could have sought an Injunction?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 03, 2010, 12:05:24 PM
I don't know the answer to this question so I'll ask it :


Was the regulartor obliged / not obliged to inform Quinn Direct that it was going to the High Court to appoint administrators to the business ?


Quinn says they were not informed otherwise they would have told the court that the Regulator was wrong -


When is the next court hearing ??

Surely Quinn can challenge the High Court order if he thinks he's right in what he is saying ?

Otherwise the Regulator is right and Quinn is spouting.

Let's see what happens.

If that were the case surely Quinn could have sought an Injunction?
[/b]

I don't know how it works if the High court appoint administrators - I don't kniw if you can go for an immediate application for an injunction - maybe he has to wait till the next day ?

Reading between the lines, my view is that Quinn is "technically" not meeting the required ratios and has been very taken aback / insulted / slighted by someone telling him that he's not in charge of the chequebook any more. Quinn and the regulator have been having a go at other and the regulator has hit him a fair auld dig. In other words, there's history even if it is a new regulator.

But time will tell.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 03, 2010, 02:58:53 PM
Quote
I suspect if other insurers were investigated  similar problems would exist due to the general drop in land and share prices.

Quinn Insurance may be profitable and generally solvent but they've given guarantees on €1.2 billion in loans advanced to Quinn Group as a whole. They've taken money that should have held to meet insurance potential claims and used it to bail out other parts of Quinn. This is reckless by any measure and the Reguator was right to step in.

This is about right.  I think the regulator is saying Sean, there's a difference bteween running an insurance comapny and a cement factory.

Interesting that most people thought it was a bad thing that the banks were allowed to get too big to be allowed to fail...but not Quinns ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 05, 2010, 12:56:15 PM
Fermanagh county board support Quinn Group

04 April 2010

The Fermanagh County Board like their neighbours in Cavan have shown their support for the Quinn Group.

An official statement from County Board Chairman Peter Carty reads:

STATEMENT BY COISTE FHEAR MANACH, C.L.G., ON APPOINTMENT OF ADMINISTRATORS TO QUINN INSURANCE

Fermanagh County Committee of the Gaelic Athletic Association, on its own behalf and on behalf of the G.A.A. clubs in this County, condemns the appointment of administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd.

The Quinn Group, through its Chairman, Sean Quinn, a former captain of Fermanagh Inter-county teams at all levels, has contributed massively to the economy of this county and of our neighbouring county of Cavan, as it has done in several other parts of Ireland. It currently employs a large number of our players and other members, and they have always assured us that this was one of the best and most generous employers on this Island.

For almost half a century, the Quinn family has been involved in this Association, at all levels and in many roles. Never, in our experience, has any member of that family failed to meet his, or her, commitments to the community and the broader society of Fermanagh and Ireland. Therefore, despite the contrary assertions of the Regulator and the Minister for Finance, we have no hesitation in accepting Sean Quinn's word that he would pay all his liabilities, as they fell due and that, there was no risk to policy holders.

We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.

The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group. We call on the Irish Government to act quickly to sort out the mess, which has been created by the ill-considered and pre-emptive actions of one of its agents.

Peter Carty
Chairman
Coiste Fhear Manach, C.L.G.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 12:59:47 PM
That's embarrassing and ridiculous.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on April 05, 2010, 01:20:06 PM
I have to agree with you POG. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 05, 2010, 01:29:34 PM
Pints,
I understand why you think that but really what choice does the county board have??
I would say that every member of our current county panel will be directly or indirectly effected by this.

I drove home today through Belturbet and Ballyconnell.
If Quinn goes, Fermanagh, Cavan, Leitrim, Monaghan will become ghost counties overnight.
People are taking about 5000 pepole losing their jobs.
I would say that you could see nearer 20000 people losing there jobs with the knock on effect.

I have kept quiet on this so far because i know too many people that will be effected by this.

One thing i will say its good to see that the minister for trade and industry has got his priorities right.
Heading for a Jollie to the states instead of staying at home to try and sort this mess out.
Good man
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 01:36:49 PM
I understand that ferm and I feel for anyone in that position (and I know what it's like!)

However, this has absolutely nothing, NOTHING! to do with Fermanagh county board or the GAA as a whole.

Do you think that statement will in anyway help those people who's jobs are at risk? Nope, not on bit. It's an embarrassment to the GAA.

Quote
We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.
that's painfully embarrassing.

Quote
The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group.
and they have no right to speak for the GAA community
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 05, 2010, 02:02:16 PM
I understand that ferm and I feel for anyone in that position (and I know what it's like!)

However, this has absolutely nothing, NOTHING! to do with Fermanagh county board or the GAA as a whole.

Do you think that statement will in anyway help those people who's jobs are at risk? Nope, not on bit. It's an embarrassment to the GAA.

Quote
We are particularly annoyed that the Regulator had no understanding of the symbolic importance of withdrawing the company's right to write insurance policies in the Six Counties of the North. We too are Irish and we feel the Regulator's understanding of Ireland is limited, evidenced by the position he has adopted on this issue. We would strongly urge him to rethink his decision.
that's painfully embarrassing.

Quote
The entire G.A.A. community in this county and, we believe, in the surrounding counties too, stand four-square behind Sean Quinn and the Quinn Group.
and they have no right to speak for the GAA community

I think that they have the right to speak for the Gaa community in Fermanagh Pints
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 02:32:02 PM
maybe they should sit back as say fcuk all eh pints? that would be much better than speaking out in some fashion in an attempt to show support although it may be nothing directly to do with the GAA, its still going to affect thousands of people indirectly if this problem becomes worse for the Quinn Group, community and social life in the border counties of Fermanagh and Cavan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 02:40:18 PM
maybe they should sit back as say fcuk all eh pints? that would be much better than speaking out in some fashion in an attempt to show support although it may be nothing directly to do with the GAA, its still going to affect thousands of people indirectly if this problem becomes worse for the Quinn Group, community and social life in the border counties of Fermanagh and Cavan
yes, that's exactly what they should do. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 03:05:52 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 03:29:51 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
at any cost?
idiotic and simplistic.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: fearbrags on April 05, 2010, 05:07:49 PM
I  have  to  agree  with  pints ! just  as  stupid as  when  the  government got involved in paying gaa players
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 05:24:45 PM
we prefer to stand by one another in this part of the world, its what we do in times of hardship rather than sit idly by letting others rip the piss  :o
at any cost?
idiotic and simplistic.

what does it cost to make a stance and make your views clear on something? especially when those views are valid.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.   
 

 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 05:44:42 PM
A bit cringeworthy, and if it was any other county board I'd be glad it wasn't mine, but f**k it, I like it.

I dont think they expect anyone to take a blind bit of notice of their character reference; its not going to make a difference to whats going on. Someone who will notice it though, is Sean Quinn himself, and thats clearly what its for. In that context, as a message of support for a patron, its not that embarrassing, and certainly not ridiculous.

When Quinn comes out of this, I'd say he'll remember those who were notable for their silence.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 05:48:02 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.
Muppet the letter looks is idiotic no matter what comes out of this.

"we are Irish too" - oh f**king hell - cringe!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 05:51:08 PM
Talk of 5,500 jobs going is scaremongering by Quinn and is lapped up by the media. It would appear to be designed to put pressure on TDs and Ministers.  As far as I can see the worst case scenario would see some of the Quinn group changing ownership. There could be a risk to jobs if that happened but the scaremongering seems to be on the basis that what the Regulator has done might cause Quinn to simply close down. I don't see how that would happen.

I think as this plays out and more information emerges people will start to change their opinion on Sean Quinn. If that happens the above letter will look idiotic.

We'll see Muppet.

And to say that the talk of the jobs going is merely scaremongering is ridiculous. Even if everything was declared a big mistake tomorrow, there would still be a massive loss of custom. Can you not see that, and the inevitable knock on effects? The longer this drags on, the worse that situation is going to get.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:16:59 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 05, 2010, 06:19:54 PM
Wise up POG, you are so full of your own opinion being the only opinion that counts and it being the right opinion too of course and thus everyone else has to be ridiculous and cringeworthy... you are so obviously above "being Irish"

i'd rather see Quinn pull the plug on the whole lot and pay off his loyal staff rather than see others take ownership
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 06:37:22 PM
No muppet, I wouldn't say at all that Seán Quinn should be above criticism or beyond the mechanisms of state-control. What I would say, however, that this particular decision seems to be as premature as the Regulator's previous invocations were non-existent; that office has gone from the invisible to the in-your-face in one (potentially) devastating stroke.

There is no doubt that he played fast and loose with Anglo, none at all, but the Regulator seems to believe that this gives carte blanche in dealings with Quinn -- to hamstring a going concern in such a fashion as the Regulator has done is reckless in the extreme; there are better and less destructive ways for the Regulator to make the office's presence felt.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: pintsofguinness on April 05, 2010, 06:39:19 PM
Wise up POG, you are so full of your own opinion being the only opinion that counts and it being the right opinion too of course and thus everyone else has to be ridiculous and cringeworthy... you are so obviously above "being Irish"

i'd rather see Quinn pull the plug on the whole lot and pay off his loyal staff rather than see others take ownership

You'd rather have his staff looking for jobs than see them working for someone else? wtf?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:46:20 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:46:29 PM
I agree with muppet, this isn't about closing down the quinn group and taking 5500 jobs from cavan, fermanagh.  This will very possibly see a change in ownership though, apparently there's talk that quinn may cut a deal with regards to the 2.8Bn he owes to Anglo, that deal will involve transferring large chunks of the group (at the very least) to Anglo.  I have a lot of sympathy for him, but he chased his losses and that happens us all when we do that, reason and rationale go out the window.  The thing is I seem to remember him losing 400 odd million around the millenium with similar gambling, he apologised and said he's take a back seat with from investing from then on, he did with regards to the groups money (sort of), but he went for broke with his own, of course since he'd made a large chunk of that by gambling on anglo on the way up, can he be castigated for not getting out in time?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 06:50:20 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 06:56:22 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:03:23 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 05, 2010, 07:09:42 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

The way I see it, the actions of the regulator are likely to trigger loss of custom to such a degree that large-scale job losses will be inevitable. You are speculating about someone coming in to buy it over, thus avoiding most of these losses. I dont think the headlines about the 5,500 jobs under threat are scaremongering.

I dont understand either his vilification a la the bankers - there seems to be a bit of a 'no smoke without fire' attitude going on. He borrowed money which he lost, hes going to pay it back, and was in a position to do so - while he was before the regulator screwed him anyway. To say your kids and grandkids are going to be paying off his gamble is complete bollocks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:14:20 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

The way I see it, the actions of the regulator are likely to trigger loss of custom to such a degree that large-scale job losses will be inevitable. You are speculating about someone coming in to buy it over, thus avoiding most of these losses. I dont think the headlines about the 5,500 jobs under threat are scaremongering.

I dont understand either his vilification a la the bankers - there seems to be a bit of a 'no smoke without fire' attitude going on. He borrowed money which he lost, hes going to pay it back, and was in a position to do so - while he was before the regulator screwed him anyway. To say your kids and grandkids are going to be paying off his gamble is complete bollocks.

I'm not speculating about a change of ownership, I am repeating what I read in yesterday's SBP.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:24:27 PM
None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:30:12 PM
None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

So why didn't the Government let Anglo fail, since it patently is of no systemic value to the Irish economy (despite what the FF'ers parrot incessantly).

Then it wouldn't cost the taxpayer anything like the billions we're currently shelling out for that wreck of a betting-shop, and whoever would fall as a result would fall (without the current haemorrhaging of taxpayers' funds).

They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:36:08 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:41:12 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?

If Quinn ends up in State ownership the jobs would probably be safe.

As for the guarantee, you are talking about deposits. The State guaranteed everything notably the bonds used by Anglo etc to raise money to lend out to developers, house buyers and other such safe transaction.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 07:46:22 PM
They can't let if fail thanks to the bank guarantee. The 'cheapest bailout in history' meant the State guaranteed all of the liabilities of our banks, including Anglo. Because of that some or all of the Quinn group could end up under State ownership.

But the bank guarantee has a ceiling of €100,000, doesn't it? So the reality is that since the vast majority of Anglo's loans are commerical-property loans, it would be the developers who would suffer, not your common-or-garden depositor. Therefore it's not sytstemically important, therefore the cheapest option would have been to let it go, but of course they couldn't let it go since all their cronies' monies were tied up in it.

And so what if Quinn ended up in State ownership? Would that not be preferable to knobbling the trading capacity of Quinn through the offices of the Regulator?
No, around about the end of sept 08, Lenno increased the deposit guarantee to 100K from 22K, this didn't really help matters, in his wisdom (and with the unminuted and unnoted help and advice of some bankers) it was decided to completely guarantee everything both deposits and loans given to and taken by the indigenous banks, thus if anglo were to have been let go at any point after that, the irish state would be liable for all borrowings undertaken by anglo, as these would undoubtedly dwarf the collectible monies we'd owe the difference.
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.
to be perfectly honest, i wouldn't disagree if their houses were to be taken from them - there has to be accountability and responsibility for one's actions too you know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 07:51:42 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 07:55:07 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 07:59:32 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.

I must say I always liked Alan Dukes but I find it annoying listening him saying that it is too expensive to close Anglo.

What he is really saying is 'the politicians, bankers and regulators have screwed up so badly that I am going to take billions off you all to fix it.' No more than the church a little humility wouldn't go amiss.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 08:38:32 PM
So it's too late to let Anglo fail now then?

€10 Billion this week, and probably the same and more in the months ahead, multiple times... I'd still say it's cheaper to let it go, it has that bottomless pit characteristic about it.
maybe, thing is we have to pay whatever is owing anyway, the state can't default on it's guarantee - we wouldn't be allowed to for a start (IMF, Merkel, German Invasion.....)

Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Pangurban on April 05, 2010, 08:57:11 PM
What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 05, 2010, 09:00:22 PM
What about the fact that the Bondholders in Anglo include Irish Pension Funds, Credit Unions etc. Could this not be a valid reason for temporarily at least propping it up. Not to do so could be catostrophic

That all depends on whether you think that those who dabble in the markets (bondholders included) deserve any protection from the taxpayer. I don't (as someone who has pension payments tied up in bonds -- tough for me). Your definition of catastrophic would differ from mine somewhat Pangurban.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Main Street on April 05, 2010, 09:00:34 PM
If QD is as profitable as claimed then there is a need for invvestigation.  We have just passed through one of the worst winters of recent times and households have suffered from flood, frost, etc and every insurance company is struggling to cover all of the claims.  Many such companies depend on investments in the markets to raise funds, etc and that route has been removed by the crunch.  The market view is that the Irsih insurance market is not profitable.
Generally Insurance companies should invest most of their reserves safely in Government bonds. These investments should be regulated by the State. Not so with Quinn Direct and the Irish regulations,, afaiu QD profits were affected, not by increased claims but by bad unsafe investment losses of the cash reserves it holds to cover claims.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 05, 2010, 09:03:26 PM
Not Merkel & the Germans BBXV -- their disaffection with the 'European Project' is all too evident with the free-falling of the Euro at the minute (if they weren't going to underwrite Greece, that being the first test of their commitment, they weren't going to be too worried about the smaller Irish economy).

The first tranche of NAMA conversions this past week has only taken 20% of the outstanding toxic debt -- the 'most valuable' of the toxins, with 80% still to be transferred. The much-trumpeted 47% discount on the loans is a smoke-trick -- commercial property values have fallen between 50% and 90% in the last 3 years, so how could they go lower on any of the transferred commerical debts? This is very much the thin-edge of the wedge, we're going to be thumped in the months ahead, with the concomitant (massive) rises in tax that will accompany that (correction).
I'm not saying that gerry would ride to the rescue, quite the opposite, I'd say because of the german dissatisfaction, that we've absolutely no choice on the matter of defaulting on the guarantee as this would plunge the euro into chaos and gerry is fed up with that, and we don't want to make him angry ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 05, 2010, 09:03:48 PM
Gene Kerrigan: Citizens lose wealth, wealthy cretins gain

By Gene Kerrigan
Sunday April 04 2010
IF WAYNE Rooney recovers sufficiently from his injury to play for Tottenham Hotspur in the World Cup in South America, how many tries do you reckon he’ll score in the first innings?

The question occurred to me last week while considering the thought processes of such major political figures as Eamon Ryan, Finian McGrath and Ned O’Keeffe. Not to mention RTE and the trade union bosses.

The bank bailout is a gargantuan issue, affecting generations. Even those of us used to political monkey business are taken aback by the ease with which the Government gets away with obvious claptrap as an excuse for diverting tens of billions in public money to private use.

Billions are being pumped into Anglo Irish, the banking arm of Fianna Fail’s builder wing. It started at €4bn and it’s heading to €22bn, with an assurance that it will rise further — be it €40bn or €80bn, whatever Alan Dukes and the other successors to Seanie FitzPatrick demand.

(As usual, when discussing matters of higher economics, this columnist should make it clear that he lacks training in the finer points of debtequity swaps. Unlike such geniuses as Brian Cowen and Alan Dukes, I’m forever mixing up my LTEV with my LTV ratios. In short, I don’t know much about economics, but I know when my throat is being cut.)

Eamon Ryan, Minister for Making Meaningless Noises, is an important figure in the current crisis.

Whether it’s the bank bailout or the right of Willie O’Dea to blackguard political opponents, Eamon steps up to argue the case.

As he explains how wonderful his Government is, Eamon usually tilts his head to one side and puts on his patronising halfsmile.

He knows we’re frightened and suspicious — but he forgives us, the little people. And he’ll explain the world to us if we’ll just shut our goddamn mouths and do as we’re goddamn told.

Last weekend, academic economists got their knickers in knots when Eamon explained how we would probably “have to leave the euro” without the bank bailout. “It’s not easy, it’s not palatable, but that’s the choice you’re faced with.” When asked about alternatives to Nama, he bullied: “Do you think we should leave the euro?”

Now, leaving the euro would be a massive step — involving setting up a whole new currency. It would be so drastic as to make almost any other course seem safer.

(Besides, is there any combination of the current parties you’d trust to attempt such a gigantic and dangerous project?) Ipso facto — accept the goddamn bank bailout, as arranged by your betters, and shut the hell up.

What troubled the academic economists was that Eamon’s view of the bailout (“accept it or leave the euro”) didn’t make sense. “Without foundation,” said Karl Whelan of UCD. “The consistent evidence that senior ministers do not understand the banking situation is extremely worrying.”

Brian Lucey of TCD: “Either extremely misleading politics, or a deep, dangerous misunderstanding of almost everything.”

When Eamon Ryan explains how we must accept the bailout or leave the euro, it makes as much sense as wondering aloud if Trapattoni will guide Wayne Rooney’s cue to make a 147 break in the upcoming Euro Handball Steeplechase.

When an issue is of huge importance, yet is so technical as to be next to incomprehensible to the lay person, a Government minister using such bullying tactics is contemptible. But it fits into the “say anything” culture of this Government. Frighten the punters with comparisons to Iceland.

Shut down discussion by claiming it’s the only game in town, while your media cheerleaders parrot, “There is no alternative.” Throw around unsubstantiated figures until puzzled journalists habitually report those figures as fact.

Mislead, mislead, mislead. Here’s Brian Lenihan: “I am firmly of the view that Ireland cannot contemplate a default.”

Memo to Mr Lenihan: Hard to believe, I know, but Anglo is not Ireland. Again: “We can’t go around repudiating our debts.” No one wants the State to repudiate our debts, but these are not “our debts”. They are the debts of private entities — banks, builder investors — who engaged in massive gambling games, and lost.

Memo to RTE reporters: stop referring to “our banks”. They are not our banks, they belong to private outfits. Even nationalised Anglo is not “our bank” — it’s run by a private coterie of highly paid managers who will do whatever benefits the bank, regardless of its effects on the citizens.

And, by the way, bank economists and stockbrokers are not independent analysts. Politicians? Fine Gael is so brazenly opportunist, maddened by the smell of impending power, constantly searching for the killer soundbite, that its frenetic efforts are woefully unconvincing.

And here’s Ned O’Keeffe, Fianna Fail backbencher, on the bailout: “It could create a bigger mess for us than we’ve ever seen in our life” and might destroy Irish banking. But Ned backs it, anyway. Why? “I’m a member of Fianna Fail and I will vote with the party.”

Government supporter Finian McGrath used familiar rhetorical tricks to explain his vote for Nama. “It’s the only game in town” — a discredited device used to shut off discussion. “Keeping [Anglo Irish] open costs less” — an unsubstantiated claim by bankers with a vested interest.

Full disclosure: I gave Finian my No 1 preference at the last election. He is a passionate radical — and clearly out of his depth in dealing with the sleight of hand of those using public money to solve private capital’s problems.

Anyone doubt that the twin “recapitalisation” and Namafication of Anglo is a transfer of wealth from citizens to wealthy cretins who’ve screwed up their businesses? Well, read the comment of Moody’s, the international ratings agency: “Ireland has put in place an ingenious mechanism.”

Moody’s is one of the agencies paid by banks and hedge funds to certify that they’re credit-worthy.

Moody’s happily certified all the lunatic financial gambles that broke the international banking system — and were handsomely paid for it.

Moody’s applauds whatever helps wealthy gamblers — therefore it cheerfully endorses the “ingenious mechanism” that pulls the gamblers’ chestnuts out of the fire, at the expense of our children’s futures.

They see a government long conditioned to genuflecting to banks and builders — overwhelmingly committed to protecting the interests of investors, not the citizenry. And they say, “Good work, lads.”

Meanwhile, the fiscal problems must similarly be solved at the expense of the skulls. With great ballyhoo, public service trade union leaders have won a “revolutionary” deal — productivity concessions and service cuts in return for — well, something or other on the never-never.

The media portray the typical trade union boss as a bumpkin version of Che Guevara. In truth, many of them come from the trade union wing of Fianna Fail — most of them love being allowed sit at the top table.

The purpose of the deal on offer is to get them back to that coveted place.

On every front, using threats and promises, a brazen class war has been unleashed against leaderless citizens. And it’s all working well, so far.

Anyway, to more serious matters. When swinging his hurley in the away match against the Pittsburgh Steelers, do you reckon Damian Duff will find the going too soft at Punchestown?

Over to you, Eamon.

- Gene Kerrigan
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 09:43:43 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:08:29 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 10:12:37 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

Indeed I did, as you will see if you trawl through my posts.

No hunger strike memorial should have been held in Casement Park.

County boards aren't entitled to speak about things they know feck all about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: hardstation on April 05, 2010, 10:15:46 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

Indeed I did, as you will see if you trawl through my posts.

No hunger strike memorial should have been held in Casement Park.

County boards aren't entitled to speak about things they know feck all about.
Jaysus, sam, our own would be very quiet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: saffron sam2 on April 05, 2010, 10:18:32 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

Indeed I did, as you will see if you trawl through my posts.

No hunger strike memorial should have been held in Casement Park.

County boards aren't entitled to speak about things they know feck all about.
Jaysus, sam, our own would be very quiet.

'Tis almost a prerequisite for election.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:26:23 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 05, 2010, 10:43:47 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?

Well I'd be more interested in what they would have to say about issues relative to the county such as there being no decent road between Ballina and Castlebar and of course beastiality 8)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 05, 2010, 10:46:51 PM
Disappointing and irrelevant interjections from the Cavan and Fermanagh county boards.

Their roles aren't political; competitive inter-county teams would suffice.

Thank feck neither is running any of Sean Quinn's businesses.

Did you have the same opinion when the hunger strike memorial was hosted in Casement Park? Co Boards are entitled to speak on behalf of their members in my opinion.

I want to know how the Mayo CB feel about important issues such as the bank guarantee, stem cell research & whether Jordan/Peter Andre are a better match than Leenie/Ziggy?

Well I'd be more interested in what they would have to say about issues relative to the county such as there being no decent road between Ballina and Castlebar and of course beastiality 8)

Ballina is surplus to requirements, we have Castlebar. As for beastiality right idea, wrong county. Try Floscommon or maybe Wickla.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 09:34:21 AM
did i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  March . I dont get it is  the regulator just doing his job ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: cornafean on April 06, 2010, 09:47:46 AM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

Collectively they will indeed cost the taxpayer billions. Tens of billions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 09:49:40 AM
Quote
did i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  Marc

Yep you sure did. Unreal stuff.Feel sorry for them but their anger is misdirected. They should look closer to home at their founder for the reason the regulator came in
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 09:55:23 AM
Quote
did i hear on the radio that there are 50 bus's of Quinn staff heading to Dublin for a  Marc

Yep you sure did. Unreal stuff.Feel sorry for them but their anger is misdirected. They should look closer to home at their founder for the reason the regulator came in

absolutely, makes you wonder though what would have happened if the previous regulator had done his job and called a halt to the banks gallop
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DickyRock on April 06, 2010, 10:19:24 AM
Have not been told by their employers to go down?

I know their anger is mis-directed but it would be very hard to stick your head above the parapit and question Quinn.

My thoughts are if he really wanted to he would stump up the money to cover the deficit, but it looks like he is prepared to let the insurance arm go
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:37:52 AM
Quote
Have not been told by their employers to go dow

Never. Sure this is entirely an employee initiative ;) It's an unfortunate coincidence that their press release came from the same firm that does the corporate stuff for the Quinn Group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 06, 2010, 10:48:33 AM
Sure what else are they to do??
Sit back and watch as they lose their jobs.
At least they are venting their anger at something
.
From i have witnessed over the past 2 years, the only people that have done this were the OAP's.
Everybody else seems to have rolled over and accepted whatever the government has done to them.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:57:10 AM
Quote
At least they are venting their anger at something

I did say that I have sympathy for them but they are venting it in the wrong direction in my opinion and are being used in a bigger game by the very people they claim loyalty to.

Quote
Everybody else seems to have rolled over and accepted whatever the government has done to them

In this instance it's not the "government" who did anything to them. The regulator's actions are as a direct result of the actions of the Quinn management team.

Not sure about the future of the Quinn Group but the Insurance side of things I think will be OK and from what I hear there are plenty of potential interested parties
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 06, 2010, 11:15:44 AM
Declan can you really blame them??
Quinn has created jobs and employment where previously there was nothing.
What do you suggest they do??
Start protesting against Quinn??

You are correct about there being plenty of interested parties in the insurance sides of things.
Only problem is that these multinational companies will have absolutely no interrest in keeping these jobs in Fermanagh/Cavan.
They will be moved elsewhere.

I for one have been amazed as to what the government in the republic has gotten away with over the last couple of years to shield the Fianna Fail donators who have invested so heavily in property and Anglo Irish.
Why is it that Quinn in the only one being actively chased??
Is it because there is still a chance of getting the money back of him.
What about the rest of the bond holders??  Why are they still unknown??





Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2010, 11:46:19 AM
Quinn  has betrayed the trust of the people of the border region. He has messed around with the regulator for at least 2 years

"For almost two years, the regulator was engaged in exhaustive discussions with the company to force it to bring its solvency levels up to the required standard. Quinn said it would do this by limiting the amount of insurance premiums it was taking on in 2009 to €972m and also target more profitable lines of business in the UK. The regulator agreed to the plan, but the company went on to write €1.05bn of premiums and make a loss of more than €44m in the UK. Quinn also had to write down the value of its property assets by €75m. " Sunday Tribune
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 11:54:55 AM
Quote
Declan can you really blame them??
No I couldn't blame them for trying to save their jobs but I think they are being used by Quinn group and are pawns in a bigger game. They should be asking questions of their management and not parroting the company line - When I heard the employee "spokesperson" on the radio last week he refused to answer any questions about this which leads me to believe he's a patsy set up by the company to gain public sympathy.

Quote
Start protesting against Quinn??
If protesting means asking him why he broke the rules well then yes. I can understand why they wouldn't take to the streets demanding his head on a plate as some others would feel entitled to do but this unyielding loyalty and unquestioning is exactly what has F**cked this country up.

Quote
Only problem is that these multinational companies will have absolutely no interrest in keeping these jobs in Fermanagh/Cavan.
They will be moved elsewhere.

I'd say as part of any buy out there would be huge pressure to keep the jobs up there so whilst there maybe some losses I'm not sure whether the whole lot would go

Quote
Why is it that Quinn in the only one being actively chased??

I'm not sure but maybe it's because he's the only one with a business that is in breach of it's regulations. Re the other developers and bondholders well we have been told that they will be pursued by NAMA etc but I won't hold my breath. On the bondholders I'd be of the same opinion as the argument outlined in Kerrigan's article posted earlier.

I know people who work for Quinn and feel for them just as I also know people who have been made redundant recently and I hope everything works out for them. Unfortunately experience has taught me that ultimately loyalty to the job counts for SFA and I hate to see people being used like this.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 01:10:03 PM
would mostly agree with you Dec, but still think that the jobs would be safer with quinn in charge - or one of the quinns if Sean sr had to fall on his sword.
Also think that (conspiricy alert) its all quite cushy now that a lot of the developers have become bankrupt and transferred their remaining assets etc before nama came into proper play. Now the only few standing like quinn are going to be pursued...and thats very suspect from my perspecive.
he is def a scapegoat. his creative accounting was wrong, but to use  phrase from the departed financial regulator (the one that he used about fitzpatrick taking the 94million loan) - it was ethically wrong , but not illegal or legally wrong (because there was no f**king legislation in place from the financial regulator at the time).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 01:43:07 PM
Such has been the monumental ineptitude of the Regulator's office in the 26 (and I know that  that has changed hands has since their most inglorious episode of pure crassness recently), that I can't see how anyone, or any body, with a vested interest in the community that has been directly affected by a decision of that same Regulator could NOT speak up, regardless of any attendant mortification from so doing.

The reality is that every decision that the 26-county Regulator takes must be open to the maximum possible scrutiny, even if at times that scrutiny appears to be somewhat OTT; the Regulator's office deserves no latitude.

The crazy thing about this line of argument is that it seems to put Sean Quinn above criticism. People in Fermanagh/Cavan might feel he is a deity but the rest of us might see things a little differently. My kids and probably grandkids will be paying for his gamble with Anglo.

Haranguerer there is a big difference between saying that all 5,500 jobs are at risk and loss of custom might affect jobs. 'Can you not see that'?

Quinn is in a position to repay his loans to Anglo, is he not? He has said he will pay back every penny. He has taken many risks like most successful businessmen, moving from cement to Insulation to insurance to bottle factories to hotels. He has always succeeded and when one gamble goes wrong we all want the boot put in. This is a man with a proven track record of starting successful businesses in a part of Ireland that as always been totally ignored by the politicans from North and South, what does Ireland stand to gain from bankrupting him instead of giving him a chance to pay what he owes.
he's not in a position to repay his loans to anglo without some form of restructuring of the debt and the group, as i say the problem isn't the successful businesses, its that there appear to be very few controls, this is par for the course in a group like Quinn, but he has jeopardised the future of the group

There are plenty of people in Ireland at the moment restructuring loans on their houses cos they have over borrowed, lost their jobs and /or are in negative equity. Should they too have their houses taken from them.

None of those people are likely to cost the taxpayer billions.

Collectively they will indeed cost the taxpayer billions. Tens of billions.

We are bailing out the banks, not the home owners. They won't get a cent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 06, 2010, 02:09:16 PM
From today's Irish Times:

Quinn should have no role in insurance group rescue


BUSINESS OPINION: Seán Quinn is architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises his insurance adventure is over the better, writes JOHN McMANUS

WATCHING SEÁN Quinn on the television news last Thursday, it seemed pretty obvious that someone needs to take him aside and explain a few things. The extent to which Quinn seems deluded is positively frightening. It is clear that he fundamentally does not understand the prudential bargain at the heart of the insurance business.

On the news and in several subsequent interviews, he has gone on at length about the profitability of Quinn Insurance, which he tells us makes profits of €20 million a month, and which in theory will allow him repay the Quinn Group’s €4 billion of debt.

The first point to make here is that Quinn Insurance does not meet the solvency requirements set by the regulator and has a history of not doing so. The Government allows companies sell insurance provided they obey certain rules, the most fundamental of which is the requirement to have enough assets to meet your liabilities. One of the ways you do this is set aside some of your profits.

Anyone in insurance will tell you that it’s much easier to make profits if you don’t meet your solvency targets. The trouble is that if you are not meeting your solvency targets you are not running an insurance company, you are running something else. And it’s something that might not have the wherewithal to meet its commitments.

That in turn is not something that the Government can let you do if it’s serious about protecting its citizens. In fact its something they should take off you before people get hurt, including the employees.

The only amazing thing about Quinn Insurance – and sadly it’s not that amazing in the Irish context – is that the company was not seized years ago. Mr Quinn’s decision to use the reserves of the insurance company to finance his disastrous foray into Anglo Irish Bank shares should have been sufficient grounds to seize the company in 2008, demonstrating as it did his blindness to the prudential fundamentals of insurance.

Over and above that, the whole – and as yet unexplained – thinking behind taking a secret 28 per cent stake in the country’s third-largest bank should, as a minimum, have shown an approach to investment at odds with running an insurance business. Never mind what it said about an attitude to corporate governance.

The anger expressed by Quinn Insurance staff is entirely misplaced. The person they should be asking questions of is the man whose massive investment gambles pushed the company into the arms of the administrator.

The second point on which Mr Quinn needs to be wised up on is that his folksy code of “if I make a mistake I will fix it” does not actually cut when you have helped wreck a bank that will end up costing €20 billion to put down, never mind save.

When the consequences of that include putting in jeopardy an insurance company that one million people count on and that 2,400 work for, “I made a mistake, I will fix it” just sounds like the recipe for mashing up what is left of the business.

The third thing that Seán Quinn needs to grasp is that the fact that he lost €3 billion on shares – most of which went on a disastrous investment in Anglo Irish Bank shares – makes him even less qualified to be let near an insurance company. But, by his tortured logic, the scale of his losses should engender some sort of empathy and lead to us giving him a further chance. It’s crackers.

Seán Quinn is the architect of his own downfall and the sooner he realises the game is up as far as his adventure in the insurance industry the better. The real issue is how to save Quinn Insurance, because if it goes down the unintended collateral damage will be huge. Not only are jobs at risk, there is the nightmarish scenario of what happens to the health insurance market if Quinn Insurance flounders. Private health insurance is one of the creaky pillars on which the health service is built. Withdraw cover from 400,000 people and the whole thing falls over.

The preferred solution is to find a buyer for Quinn Insurance as quickly as possible and before the whole thing unravels as its bankers and customers take flight. An international buyer would be preferable because it would shift the risk on to their balance sheet and away from the State.

The other alternative is for the State to take it on to its already rather stretched balance sheet via Anglo Irish Bank, which is owed €2.8 billion by the Quinn family and has a charge over the family’s assets. But Anglo is in deep enough trouble as things stand without also turning it into a lifeboat for Quinn Insurance

At this stage it’s unclear which way things will go, but one thing is obvious: there should be no role for Seán Quinn in what happens.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 06, 2010, 02:17:20 PM
Surely it makes more sense to keep the jobs in Fermanagh, Cavan etc where salaries and land are cheaper than in Dublin.
Sean Quinn comes across as a tribal chieftain, the heir to the Maguires, rather than a serious insurance player.   
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 02:29:16 PM
That Irish Times piece is just about the perfect summation of the situation I'd say. It's also a model of clarity, informative journalism and good writing. Take a bow Mr. McManus.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:09:31 PM
so Quinn and quinn insurance really need to just enforce the regulatory requirements and implement proper solvency measures.
I presume this will be at a cost to profitibility - still this should at long last be done by quinns. rules are rules - irrespective of whether everyone else that has come and gone effectively ignored them !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 04:22:43 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 04:27:40 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bingobus on April 06, 2010, 04:28:33 PM
For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 04:33:41 PM
For months we've talked about regulation and the need for it.

When it arrives and takes on one of the biggest players in the insurance that has clearly broken its underlying solvency requirement we orgainise a march against the regulators actions.

Great wee country!

can't get my head around that either BB ,its like saying we want regulation so long as it does not affect us  ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 04:41:16 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: small white mayoman on April 06, 2010, 04:44:48 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders

will they be chasing legacy offenders too I wonder?

I would like to think they would , plus to jail and heavily fine all these people - including the former financial regulator, fitzpatrick, sheehy, goggin, mulloy etc etc etc

if these guys are 'broke' then send the CAB after their wives money.
eg mcnamara's wife owns a 1.2 million euro appt in manhatten, dont think the lady actually has worked for a couple of decades, and didnt inherit any money....

lets hope so 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:16:52 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 05:18:54 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders
- including the former financial regulator


If they do that, they'll have to go after Cowen and Ahern as well, because Neary was simply implementing policy and I'm sure he'll sing some song if he's put in the dock. The IFSC and all the foreign banks who sail in her are only here specifically because of "light touch" regulation. It was specifically marketed as such and the financial analysts and journalists who are now screaming about it knew that all the time.

I'm not making excuses for Neary - he should have done his job anyway. But you can bet your sweet bippy if his crew had shown up at Seanie's office anytime pre September '98 and started talking about ratios and prudential requirements and creative financing, he and they would have been looking for jobs half an hour later.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hardy on April 06, 2010, 05:20:46 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.

The world is a different place now than when the cowboys ran the town and you can't run an insurance company on betting dockets. You either regulate or you don't. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 05:24:55 PM
lets hope they bring regulation in for all these offenders
- including the former financial regulator
If they do that, they'll have to go after Cowen and Ahern as well, because Neary was simply implementing policy and I'm sure he'll sing some song if he's put in the dock. The IFSC and all the foreign banks who sail in her are only here specifically because of "light touch" regulation. It was specifically marketed as such and the financial analysts and journalists who are now screaming about it knew that all the time.

I'm not making excuses for Neary - he should have done his job anyway. But you can bet your sweet bippy if his crew had shown up at Seanie's office anytime pre September '98 and started talking about ratios and prudential requirements and creative financing, he and they would have been looking for jobs half an hour later.
as you say yourself- you either regulate or you dont
I am somewhat sceptical that those responsible (or is it irresponsible) will face punishment - worst case scenario for them , a few more tribunals will be set up and after years of nothingness, apathy will kick in and one or two scapegoats might carry the can or else those guilty (or deemed guilty) will have died and end up posthumously shouldering all the blame again.

still the financial regulator should have done his job. he didnt. so shoul dgo to jail like the rest.
this wont happen for any of them as we all know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 06, 2010, 05:25:39 PM
is this about saving a company or destroying it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 06, 2010, 05:29:25 PM
is this about saving a company or destroying it?
i'd expect they can 'save' the company (ie continue running as is ) - but need to regulate operations and procedures to offer that required level of solvency. That will cost them profits, but I'd expect them to be able and to be allowed do this- as lets face it, the gov will not want this falling over with the massive job loss and huge pr disaster.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 07:05:24 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

I'd say Michael O'Leary would say that all regulators should be shot. He is completely anti everything that gets in the way of him making a profit. Hardly the man to ask is it?

Denis O'Brien would be a different matter altogether.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 08:46:47 PM
John McManus  ::) well qualified I am sure to speak from his pulpit in such a manner

I'd love to hear what Michael O'Leary or Denis O'Brien has to say about Sean Quinn's wreckless business attitude and his abhorrence and disregard for corporate governance in Ireland

What's that got to do with the issue of the regulator stepping in to prevent Mr. Quinn running an insurance company like a betting shop? Do you disapprove of the solvency requirements for insurance companies or just for insurance companies run by Fermanagh men?

I was referring to the nice piece my McManus, nothing in that comment about Elderfield or FF's decsion. You have to speculate to accumulate Hardy my old chap thats what business is all about; you won't make any money by saying NO. I really don't think Quinn has been playing with fire here like it is made out thats all.
It's unlikely that O'Leary or O'Brien would have put themselves into a position where they ended up losing 2.8Bn betting on the price of shares of companies over which they did not have direct control.  I've said before I feel very sorry for Sean Quinn, but, he has brought this on himself and as for playing with fire, he's been throwing petrol on the fire imo.  Chasing losses, tilting, anyone who bets regularly knows these emotions and the importance on trying to keep a lid on them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dubh driocht on April 06, 2010, 09:23:44 PM
Have to say the John Mc Manus piece made it clear for me , a Quinns policy-holder.I recall Peter Quinn recently made a remark about liking someone but suggesting he didn't take enough risks for his liking.I think what he was saying was if it hadn't been for people like him ( PQ) then Croke Park would never have been built. Fair enough point but his brother's actions seem to have made a significant contribution to the mess that Ireland finds itself in, and while risk-taking is good, it should never be wreckless. Bingobus is bang on about our attitude to regulators.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:47:04 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 09:51:36 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 09:57:57 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.


They owe €2.8 billion to Anglo - 5,6,7 % interest plus capital would be say - €300m a year -

How much does Quinn non insurance related activities make / lose a year ??

In other words, is it the insurance company that is keeping the whole Quinn group going ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 06, 2010, 10:01:25 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.


They owe €2.8 billion to Anglo - 5,6,7 % interest plus capital would be say - €300m a year -

How much does Quinn non insurance related activities make / lose a year ??

In other words, is it the insurance company that is keeping the whole Quinn group going ??

Hope not, or else we will have a levy in the next budget to pay for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:15:18 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:23:04 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over.


Given that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:26:22 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 06, 2010, 10:27:44 PM
Quote
Given that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business

From what I can gather if they can start to write business again in the UK then the jobs are more secure as the RoI business is seen as the sounder. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:30:22 PM
Again listening to Quinn employees on the radio tonight completely disregarding the fact that their boss played fast and loose with the rules. Kept going on about being profitable and yet ignored the fact that an insurance company is in business to pay claims. Being used and abused yet they can't see it.
As i said previously insurance side of the business is basically sound and the question remains how many jobs can be saved if it's taken over.


Given that the business is sound, are / will the job losses be as a result of the decline in the UK business ?.
i think the worry over job losses is because employees have heard the talk that various facets of the business may change ownership - without quinn in charge he may relocate or the profitable parts of the group may no longer subsidise the less profitable sectors.  As I mentioned earlier there is a lot of speculation that some or all of the anglo loan may be swapped for stakes in the Quinn group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 06, 2010, 10:39:14 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.

Who are these companies who are holding the guarantees over QI assets ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:44:24 PM
How much does Quinn Direct need to put into their reserves to bring the company's ratios into line ???


€400million ??

Depends who you believe Quinn or the regulator but they also need to pay that annually to Anglo.
The anglo loan is to the Quinn Family, but is secured on the assets of the Quinn Group afaik - small, but subtle difference. 

They don't have to transfer any money (I think) to shore up the problem with QI, just get the companies holding the guarantees over QI assets to release them, according to Quinn, this was only a matter of days away from happening, one wonders why Quinn allowed the situation to exist for so long then.

Who are these companies who are holding the guarantees over QI assets ?.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2010/0406/1224267745642.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 06, 2010, 10:47:28 PM
Also a good article on the situation is here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2010/0402/1224267557231.html

Quote
THE PROVISIONAL administrators of Quinn Insurance have received about 20 inquiries from groups interested in buying all or part of the company’s business.

The expressions of interest came as Quinn Group increased its opposition to last Tuesday’s appointment of the administrators by the Financial Regulator, raising questions about how the move will affect Quinn’s ability to repay its debts to Anglo Irish Bank.

Liam McCaffrey, chief executive of the group, said Quinn Insurance was key to the Quinn family’s ability to repay the €2.8 billion it owes to State-owned Anglo Irish. Mr McCaffrey said a “very robust” Quinn Insurance would have been needed for the debt to be repaid, “either through cashflow or disposal”.
This was “made much more difficult through the action of Tuesday”, he added.

Seán Quinn, the founder of the company, said last night the administration move was one of the worst decisions in Irish corporate history. He said it had placed the jobs of Quinn Group’s 5,500 Irish employees in jeopardy.

Mr Quinn confirmed for the first time that his family had lost €3 billion in shares in the last three years. He said the media had thought it was about €1-1.5 billion. “Well I can tell them it was three,” he said.

Mr Quinn said “we owe Anglo €2.8 billion”, but “we had a plan to reduce that borrowing by €400 million in the next three years.’’

Speaking to RTÉ news he said he was making “€400 million or €500 million a year profit, we had no problem in the world paying that back to them.”

Meanwhile, the administrators Grant Thornton have told those interested in Quinn Insurance’s assets, it is “premature” to consider a sale at this point.

“If we decide to sell all or any part of the business in the future, we shall contact you to ascertain whether you wish to participate in the sales process,” they said.

The appointment was made on the back of regulatory concerns over Quinn Insurance’s solvency, or the excess of its assets over its liabilities. The concerns arose after the regulator became aware of guarantees made by subsidiaries of Quinn Insurance regarding €1.2 billion in Quinn Group borrowings.

This debt is in addition to the monies the Quinn family owes.

Quinn argues these concerns are unfounded because there is no prospect of the group debt being called in by its lenders. “This could have been resolved given time, and not very much time,” said Mr McCaffrey.

It has also emerged that Anglo Irish consulted Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan on the bank’s plan to cut its “significant” exposure to the Quinn family.

Anglo chief executive Mike Aynsley wrote to Mr Quinn in February, saying he would discuss with Mr Lenihan, the bank’s shareholder as Minister for Finance, a proposal by Mr Quinn to reduce his family’s debts, according to a letter seen by The Irish Times .

Under the relationship agreement between the bank and the Minister, Anglo is run on a commercial basis at arm’s length from the Government with the commercial relationship between Anglo and its customers left to the bank.

The Minister can, however, intervene to protect the public interest or ensure the bank is following the business plan that complies with the Minister’s objectives.

Separately, The Irish Times has confirmed that Anglo’s new management team has retained specialist forensic investigators to determine whether former senior managers have concealed or undeclared assets.

Meanwhile, some 300 Quinn staff yesterday protested outside the Dáil, calling on the Government to protect the company’s jobs.

The administrator’s appointment remains provisional until a further court hearing on April 12th. At that stage Quinn Insurance can oppose it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 12:00:16 AM
From what I am hearing once the process ends Sean Quinn will literally only have the shirt on his back left.

If he's lucky!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on April 07, 2010, 12:41:40 AM
They were a couple of very good articles, and filled in a few spaces in my understanding of it all.
It looks like he is in big trouble all right, and unless the gaurantees are removed, the Insurance business is for sale.
It is a real pity as so many people will loose their jobs.

I just hope he can pull it all together and save the Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 12:47:02 AM
From what I am hearing once the process ends Sean Quinn will literally only have the shirt on his back left.
If he's lucky!


How come ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:25:45 AM
Quote
How come ??

Cos of them horrible b**tards called personal guarantees

The Group owe over 2 billion to Anglo. Not cosy "come in for a chat Sean" Anglo but 2010 Anglo, not State owned and a CE who is as hard as slap of a hurl on a cold Sunday morning. Add a regenerated Financial Regulator to the mix and you get a situation for Sean Quinn that he cannot escape from.

Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.

Quinn Group will survive as an entity........in some shape........but Sean Quinn nor the extended Quinn family may not have any say from now on.

Which is sad to see a man like Sean Quinn ruined over his own foolish exploits when before everything he touched turned to gold.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on April 07, 2010, 08:49:15 AM


Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.


Is the 2bn not part of the 3bn lost, I got that impression from the interview on rte. They were going to repay that at 400m per year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Shamrock Shore on April 07, 2010, 08:53:15 AM
I indeed may be wrong Gerry but would Anglo have lent him his losses - before tapping the Golden 10 to prop up the share price.

If they did then I'm out of here. I still have a USA green card somewhere with a valid Social Security Number.




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 07, 2010, 09:33:53 AM
I know its all relative but can someone tell me, what can you not do with €750m that you can do with €3bn? Mind boggling numbers...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: JohnDenver on April 07, 2010, 09:36:21 AM
I know its all relative but can someone tell me, what can you not do with €750m that you can do with €3bn? Mind boggling numbers...

You can't put on a €750m trixie with €750m!  :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 09:43:20 AM
Does anyone have the figures for the Quinn group's turnover, profit and loss, total liabilities, reserves ??

Just to see what we're dealing with here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Hereiam on April 07, 2010, 10:09:13 AM
Have had that problem with the cement alright. Not good for plastering. With regards to the insulation would have no problem using it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:14:40 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 10:20:53 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....

I'm an optomist- I think the ban will be lifted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:29:14 AM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8604293.stm

Quinn workers briefed on future

Quinn Insurance staff will be briefed on Wednesday on the future of the company, which is in administration. A group of politicians met the head of the Irish central bank, Patrick Honohan and the head of Financial Regulations, Matthew Elderfield on Tuesday. At the meeting politicians stressed the importance of the employment created by Quinn and the need to lift the ban on the company doing business in the UK. But regulator chief, Mr Elderfield said regulations were there for a reason. He successfully petitioned the High Court in Dublin last week to have Quinn Insurance put into administration for breaching solvency rules - in simple terms how much money was set aside to cover claims. The regulator said some of that money was being used as security for bank loans made to other parts of the Quinn Group.
The fear was if the banks called in their loans then policy-holders could be left in the lurch, though Quinn insisted there was no chance of that happening. During the meeting on Tuesday Mr Elderfield and the head of the central bank, Mr Honohan acknowledged the importance of the employment created by Quinn Insurance but said they were there to do a job. Afterwards the cross-party group of politicians met a a delegation of Quinn staff to update them on the talks. The Quinn delegation is due to brief the rest of the workforce later today. The workers want the Irish arm of the business to be taken out of administration. They also want the ban on writing UK business to be lifted. The employees said they fear for their jobs if the Irish Government does not take steps to safeguard the future of the company. The majority of the work at the Enniskillen base is the underwriting of UK insurance policies, putting 700 jobs in County Fermanagh at risk. If the ban is lifted, then the UK Regulator will also have to become involved. The next step for the company will now depend on the financial report on Quinn Insurance being prepared by the two High Court-appointed administrators. It is expected the report will be given to the Financial Regulator by the end of this week in advance of the High Court case in Dublin on 12 April. Meanwhile, a rally organised by the Cavan Chamber of Commerce is due to take place in the town centre at 1730 BST in support of the workers at Quinn Insurance.


The UK Regulator??  Things might get worse....

I'm an optomist- I think the ban will be lifted.

You might be right orangeman...but "light touch" regulation is not in vogue in London at the moment!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:40:56 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 07, 2010, 10:47:18 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

Could be a problem if your claim is worth much more than QI offer you??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 07, 2010, 10:48:13 AM
Quote
How come ??

Cos of them horrible b**tards called personal guarantees

The Group owe over 2 billion to Anglo. Not cosy "come in for a chat Sean" Anglo but 2010 Anglo, not State owned and a CE who is as hard as slap of a hurl on a cold Sunday morning. Add a regenerated Financial Regulator to the mix and you get a situation for Sean Quinn that he cannot escape from.

Do the sums. He admitted losing 3 bn on Anglo plus the 2 bn now owed.........who among us has 5 bn to toss around? And this is before we think of the money he has lost in McInerney.

Quinn Group will survive as an entity........in some shape........but Sean Quinn nor the extended Quinn family may not have any say from now on.

Which is sad to see a man like Sean Quinn ruined over his own foolish exploits when before everything he touched turned to gold.
the family owe 2.8 bn to anglo, the group owes 1.2 bn, but not sure to who.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 07, 2010, 10:51:10 AM
I indeed may be wrong Gerry but would Anglo have lent him his losses - before tapping the Golden 10 to prop up the share price.

If they did then I'm out of here. I still have a USA green card somewhere with a valid Social Security Number.
better get searching then :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Rois on April 07, 2010, 10:51:50 AM
Agreed supersarsfields, you don't have to accept the offer from the rep if you don't want to.

My brother in law acts as counsel for quite a lot of QI insurance cases in the north - there's plenty that still go to court.

I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water.  So it appears that there are lots of legal complexities that we can only guess at, particularly as the ROI regulator appeared to have the authority to stop QI taking on business in the UK.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 07, 2010, 10:52:12 AM
There appears to be a problem with the Quinn products.  I have just completed a small building project at home and I was surprised at the atitude of tradesmen to key Quinn products.  My builder said he was happy to buy Quinn cement for basic block building but refused to use it for plastering because it was too difficult to work with and he ordered Blue Circle/Lafarge cement.  When it came to insulation he insisted on using Kingspan for the roof, ceiling boards and underfloor insulation but put Quinntherm in the wall cavities.  The plumber refused to use Quinn radiators because he claimed they were inferior to Myson and dispite not having the height required which Quinn had(24 inch) he rejected Quinn radiators in favour of lower but wider Myson rads.  The building boom which has fallen to 3% of its peak level in the Republic what effect has this had on the cement, insulation and radiators businesses?  Given the attitude at tradesman level, were these products aimed at low cost low quality building that fuelled the Celtic tiger bubble?  Anyone out there in the building trade have any experience of this attitude towards Quinn products?

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

Could be a problem if your claim is worth much more than QI offer you??

Then you don't accept and then go to a SOT. QD can't stop you going to a SOT. It only works when both parties are agreed. Saves the need for paying legal fees when not required. A main reason why this has been taken on board by other insurance companies.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 07, 2010, 10:55:43 AM
Claims are like a milking machine for solicitors and their network of experts.


That's why Quinn quite sensibly try and settle without the need for legal teams.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 11:13:18 AM
I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water. 

I dont understand this either, particularly with the attention that the whole situation now has gathered. Surely the UK regulator will have been looking very closely at Quinn group - I know they're headquartered in the south, but being involved in the Uk insurance business is bound to mean that had they felt there was a risk they would also have taken action. Given that they didnt/havent, it can only be assumed that they dont see the problems the southern regulators do. And I know which regulator I'd place more faith in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2010, 11:34:45 AM
I'm surprised the UK regulator is not already involved - insurance underwriters have to submit regular (quarterly I think) returns to the FSA in the UK, and they should have shown up an excess of liabilities in the UK business if it is under water. 

I dont understand this either, particularly with the attention that the whole situation now has gathered. Surely the UK regulator will have been looking very closely at Quinn group - I know they're headquartered in the south, but being involved in the Uk insurance business is bound to mean that had they felt there was a risk they would also have taken action. Given that they didnt/havent, it can only be assumed that they dont see the problems the southern regulators do. And I know which regulator I'd place more faith in.

Despite the jingoism, ironically I believe he is actually British.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 12:07:33 PM
Who?

The financial regulator? It isn't a person...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 07, 2010, 01:48:43 PM
Who?

The financial regulator? It isn't a person...


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 07, 2010, 03:20:34 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 07, 2010, 04:23:12 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 07, 2010, 05:00:25 PM
He looks very sober. Especially with the tie and the haircut. He doesn't look like the kind of fella who would pump €3bn into Anglo Irish Bank.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 08, 2010, 12:05:44 AM

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

It's OK except when it is reported that it is pressurised settlement by starting to write a cheque on the doorstep and the weakest targets are chosen, e.g. elderly and those in financial difficulties.  They have also turned up at inappropriate times, i.e. appearing for a settlement so soon after an accident when the injured are critical in hospital or where there have been fatalities.

I have no problem with cutting out lawyers when they are not needed but too often people are unaware of their full rights, e.g. up to two years wait to see if injuries develop into something more serious or long lasting.
[/quote]

Well put TYP. . . the Ryanair of the Insurance World! I do fear for the jobs that will go but some of Quinn's business practices are cut throat to say the least.

They have a dedicated team set up to get out of claims over the slightest loophole they can find. They have also stolen valued customers from Brokers through the Quinn Direct arm having offered their services as Quinn Insurance previously.

As I said 700 jobs would be a huge loss and I hope it doesn't come to that. However Quinn do need a rap on the knuckles to get their affairs in order and hopefully this will show them the error of their ways!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 08, 2010, 08:43:29 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 08:51:30 AM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Good man.

The incompetence of the southern regulator has been well documented in the past. The fact that there is someone different at the helm is unlikely to have sorted it out in its entirety. I said I knew which one I'd rather place faith in in a clear reference to their records rather than their nationality. But dont you waste a chance to bring the debate down to a level you feel comfortable on.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 09:23:30 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyrone girl on April 08, 2010, 09:30:29 AM
But Qd always have the solicitors costs when dealing with the accident management companies. When first notified of the claim they act really quick and sort the thing asap but always ask for our costs quickly sent through to them and settle them immediately.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: T Fearon on April 08, 2010, 09:54:36 AM
Nail on the head Scud, although its easy to understand that people are only concerned about their jobs, and Cowen's Government  cannot afford to be blamed for the loss of thousands of jobs. No great affection for Mr Quinn but I hope that the jobs are preserved and this Company's operations scrutinised minutely at every turn in the future.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 10:08:53 AM
I live in Fermanagh and my natural sympathies lie with the employees.  From talking to a few people I think the greatest emotion is still shock as 99% of them had no idea anything was wrong.

However they are somewhat blinded by shock and now anger.  They still believe that the fault here lies squarely at the door of the Regulator.  The situation is not the Regulator's fault. 

With the English Grand National coming up on Saturday, many of us will have a small bet and most of us will lose.  Sean Quinn and his children took a massive bet and their horse lost...the only difference is that they still have to pay the bookie their stake money.  That is at the heart of any problems in the Quinn Group.

I think Quinn (and his employees) should take a less confrontational approach and work in a quieter fashion with the administrators with a view to getting the company out of administration (if that is possible)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:45:58 AM

In lauding the QI business, it appears that the practice of trying to force through settlement of claims has been forgotten.  The country is full of stories where the QI rep appears as soon as a claim is lodged to try and get an immediate settlement of the claim without recourse to legal advice.

And what is the problem with that TYP? It stopped Solicitors getting their fees and helped drive down the prices of Insurance. And has been a tactic that other insurance companies have taken on board to lower costs. It was never a case of forcing things through, in effect they helped to stop the need for a solicitor. Hardly a problem in my eyes unless your a solicitor.

It's OK except when it is reported that it is pressurised settlement by starting to write a cheque on the doorstep and the weakest targets are chosen, e.g. elderly and those in financial difficulties.  They have also turned up at inappropriate times, i.e. appearing for a settlement so soon after an accident when the injured are critical in hospital or where there have been fatalities.

I have no problem with cutting out lawyers when they are not needed but too often people are unaware of their full rights, e.g. up to two years wait to see if injuries develop into something more serious or long lasting.

Well put TYP. . . the Ryanair of the Insurance World! I do fear for the jobs that will go but some of Quinn's business practices are cut throat to say the least.

They have a dedicated team set up to get out of claims over the slightest loophole they can find. They have also stolen valued customers from Brokers through the Quinn Direct arm having offered their services as Quinn Insurance previously.

As I said 700 jobs would be a huge loss and I hope it doesn't come to that. However Quinn do need a rap on the knuckles to get their affairs in order and hopefully this will show them the error of their ways!
[/quote]

Sorry I don't agree with any of that. There was a couple of claims were people reported about feeling harassed. Minor enough numbers considering the amount of claims that are settled. Also do you think there aren't harassment claims from other insurance companies and indeed these solicitors who chase the client aswell? If you do, your living in a bubble.
Comparing QI to Ryanair isn't that big of a crime. Considering RA's biggest fault was in care for it's workers which definitely isn't the case for QI. Hardly a massive insult.
And all insurance companies look at indemnity issues to see if their liable, hardly loop holes. There's not one insurance company that doesn't so that's a big of a strange point to make.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 10:49:06 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 11:09:38 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 11:19:35 AM
Anglo's Quinn restructure plan fails to sway regulator
SIMON CARSWELL, HARRY McGEE and MARY MINIHAN

Thu, Apr 08, 2010

The Financial Regulator has responded coolly to a proposal from State-owned Anglo Irish Bank to take control of Seán Quinn’s business and restructure its struggling insurer in a bid to secure repayment of €2.8 billion owed by the Quinn family.

The regulator met senior Anglo executives privately on Tuesday to discuss the bank’s proposal, which was devised by the new management team at the bank. However, it is understood that the regulator is intent on progressing with its court application next Monday to confirm the appointment of administrators.

Among the proposals suggested by Anglo was that the Quinn Group be taken over by the State-owned bank, that Quinn Insurance be put on a sound financial footing with support from the bank and be eventually sold for a higher price than it would in the short term.

The bank has suggested the proposal as an alternative to the full administration of Quinn Insurance which lenders to the Quinn Group and family fear could lead to a default on loans of €4 billion.

Anglo’s shareholder, Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan, is understood to have instructed the bank to devise the best solution for the group that could recover the most amount of money for the State-owned bank.

Any alternative must not only restore the insurer’s solvency to the regulator’s minimum level but also address concerns about how the insurance firm was being managed.

Anglo’s proposals could see Mr Quinn lose control of the group he founded 37 year ago. He is understood to be open to an alternative that would avoid administration.

The bank has sought time to find a solution agreed by all the parties, including all the lenders to the group, and could achieve this if the regulator extends the provisional administration of Quinn Insurance by 30 days.

Anglo is also believed to be pressing for the regulator to allow Quinn Insurance to re-open for business in Britain and Northern Ireland. Last week the regulator ordered the insurer to stop writing business in the UK to prevent further losses.

A delegation of TDs and Senators from the Border region met Mr Lenihan last night in Dublin to express concern about the implications the appointment of the administrators may have for the 5,500 jobs in group.

The delegation included Minister for Agriculture Brendan Smith, a TD for Cavan-Monaghan. A statement issued on behalf of the Minister noted that the meeting had been constructive and also emphasised the independent nature of the regulator’s role. It also disclosed publicly the role that Anglo is now taking in discussions on the group’s future.

Speaking afterwards, Mr Smith said, “we’re not privy to the data that the Quinn company were putting together for assessment by the joint provisional administrators”.

The two court-appointed provisional administrators, Michael McAteer and Paul McCann of Grant Thornton, are preparing a report on Quinn Insurance which will be given to the regulator today ahead of the High Court hearing next week.

The Quinn Group disclosed yesterday that the Quinn family owed Anglo €2.8 billion, primarily due to losses on share investments of about €3 billion outside the group, most of which were incurred on Anglo.

The group said the guarantees provided by the insurer’s subsidiaries to its bondholders and other lenders – which led to the regulator’s court action – could be withdrawn and solvency could be restored to the insurer with a further €100 million in additional borrowings.

Mr Quinn conceded that the regulator was “technically right” to take his action but said he should have met directors before putting the company into provisional administration.

The Quinn family loans fall outside the National Assets Management Agency so any losses on these loans will be in addition to those incurred by Anglo on the loans the bank transfers to the State agency.

© 2010 irishtimes.com


SQ changing his tune a little??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 11:29:16 AM
Big change of tune it would appear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 11:40:19 AM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.

Serious? Yeah cause I know for a fact.

Most bonuses had been stopped already, and most employees understand why considering the economy. The loyalty might be something to do with the fact that despite the massive drop in business and profits QG has had they haven't laid any of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 12:41:24 PM
No Sammy: thats like putting up a picture of the pope when asked what is the catholic church.

Hes the head of regulation, the financial regulator is a body, not, as I said, a person.

Every country has it's own autonomous financial regulator. You strongly suggested you'd prefer the British one over the Irish one. You don't get that choice with the Catholic Church.

If Patrick Neary is the personification of the poor regulation of the past, this guy personifies the new regulation. And he is British so you will like him.

Good man.

The incompetence of the southern regulator has been well documented in the past. The fact that there is someone different at the helm is unlikely to have sorted it out in its entirety. I said I knew which one I'd rather place faith in in a clear reference to their records rather than their nationality. But dont you waste a chance to bring the debate down to a level you feel comfortable on.

Good man yourself. You are the one who introduced the UK/'South' comparison and you are the one who nailed your colours to that particular mast. When I point that out you accuse me of bringing it down a level. Grow up ffs.

Quinn is in the shit because of his gambling not because of any institution in the 'South' that you obviously hate so much.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 01:27:38 PM
It's very interesting that Quinn didn't tolerate unions and is now manipulating the staff to do his marching bidding.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 08, 2010, 01:42:38 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 01:45:30 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.


I'm not getting this.

Is it not a case of getting another 200/300 million to bring the ratio back up again to the recommended level ?

Going forward, new business will be curtailed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:48:33 PM
I see Sean Quinn was a bit more contrite in a radio interview last night admitting to failures etc. Hopefully the administrator can sort something out.
Yet again I'm fascinated at the people of Cavan,Fermanagh, Leitrim etc and their unflinchiing loyalty to him. Whilst I can understand that he has brought jobs, employment stability to the region the fact remains that he broke the rules and it is as a direct result of this that the business is in the position it's in.
Listening to the rally last night and the speeches made and on the radio I have not heard one person say anything about this.

I feel sorry for the workers who are being cynically manipulated in all of this. Quinn has always ensured there has never been a union presence in his workforce yet now, with his own ass in the fire, we have rallies and protests. Introducing emotional blackmail as a bargaining chip in what is a business decision making process is downright disgraceful.

Many of the workers do have a cringeworthy, blind faith in the 'Mighty Quinn' but many others realise that they should be protesting outside his mansion and not the regulators office....

I think you'll find the protests have nothing to do with SQ. The idea and organisation of the protests was all taken on board solely by employees. Hardly surprising consideing what they face.

C'mon, are you serious? Its fairly obvious that that is simply not the case.

As I see it, even if Quinn remains in control most of them will have their pay frozen for another year and many will see further cuts on bonuses that make up a significant portion of their salary. We'll see if any protests are allowed then.

Serious? Yeah cause I know for a fact.

Most bonuses had been stopped already, and most employees understand why considering the economy. The loyalty might be something to do with the fact that despite the massive drop in business and profits QG has had they haven't laid any of.

If that is the case why has SQ been trumpeting about how the company has been making €3-400m despite the recession, down from €500m pre-recession? I read somewhere that the Quinn children received €200m from the Group last year, a year where ordinary workers' pay was frozen and bonuses slashed.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 01:52:35 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

So the 'Southern' regulator is 'technically correct' then?

I never used the word 'nationalist either'. Again you clearly indicated that you would prefer the British regulator to the 'southern' one. You took offense when I pointed out that the 'southern' regulator is in fact British. I should have said he was the Head of Financial Regulation which of course is the same thing.

Either way, handing Irish sovereign jurisdiction over to the British is not going to happen no matter how important the gambler is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 08, 2010, 01:55:49 PM
Article from Ivan Yates who is hardly a radical:

It’s time we pleaded inability to pay for dead banks and risky businesses
By Ivan Yates
Thursday, April 08, 2010

THE implosion of our financial services sector just keeps giving more trauma and we have been constantly misled with only partial, minimalist, optimistic instalments of information. This has led the state to take ownership of virtually the entire indigenous banking sector and its liabilities.

The next generation of taxpayers have already had their future mortgaged by these commitments. The elastic is set to snap. The state’s comfort blanket cannot underwrite this meltdown.


The Government then sent in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to assess future Anglo losses, estimated to be €2.75bn over three years. The bank was nationalised in January without the full horror being revealed. Last summer we were assured the €3.8bn state recapitalisation would go a long way towards fixing the bank.

Last week we invented a new term, "promissory notes". This facilitates €8.3bn of our money being paid by 10 postdated annual cheques of €830m over the next decade. We are still not being told the whole truth. Brian Lenihan says a further €10bn may be needed to cover the losses on the loans that do not qualify for NAMA. We have no visibility on these portfolios. It could be a further €20bn is required. Total losses of €30bn may emerge from Anglo’s loan book of €72bn.

The past modus operandi of Anglo is now emerging. It was loan growth at all costs. The pedal was jammed on another billion of loan approvals. They were the bank that said "yes". Their banking model, risk analysis and legal securities on collateral were unsustainable. The debris of bad debt collection is falling apart and we’re left to pick up the pieces.

This bank must be wound down in an orderly fashion. The new board and management of Alan Dukes and Mike Aynsley have a narrow fiduciary responsibility just to Anglo. The Government has to have a wider perspective. In politics and business there comes a point of "force majeure". We didn’t know what we were getting into when we nationalised Anglo. The ethics of management were non-existent. The board failed to exercise any standard of corporate governance. Anglo directors were granted loans of €155m, of which €109m is now assessed to be non-collectable. The regulator was hopelessly inadequate. Auditors and other external experts didn’t grasp the enormity of the losses. The sum total of this disaster is being underwritten with Irish sovereign debt, on which we definitely can’t default. It’s time to start disengaging by negotiating with both subordinate and senior bondholders. Let’s hope for a miracle – EU Commissioner Joaquín Almunia prohibits this level of state aid – giving us a get-out-of-jail card.

The Anglo cancer spread into the wider economy. The Dublin Docklands Development Authority (DDDA) came under their spell. This body is now insolvent, with losses of up to €500m. The usual symptoms: greed, conflicts of interest and a flagrant disregard for corporate governance. The casino approach to commerce was endemic. The latest instalment is the placement of Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL) into court-appointed provisional administration. The links between Anglo and Quinn represent two sides of the one coin. We have now reached the most dangerous point of discovery and resolution.

Seán Quinn and the Quinn Group have operated with the utmost secrecy. This was represented as personal modesty on behalf of Ireland’s richest man – a shy, retiring, self-effacing entrepreneur with the most humble of origins.

It’s time for us to get a grip on reality. This secrecy was a blatant tactic of concealment. The building up of Quinn’s stake in Anglo was done in the most furtive manner of "contracts for difference". Even Anglo management didn’t know their largest single borrower, at €2.8bn, controlled up to a 28% stake in the bank. This had to be unwound, with devastating consequences. Apparently Sean Fitzpatrick blames Quinn for the demise of Anglo.

Weekend speculation suggests Anglo has weaker security on its outstanding loans to the Quinn Group than other lenders and bondholders, out of total debts of €4bn. The prospect emerges that Anglo may now acquire the Quinn Group in a debt for equity swap.

Have we completely lost our marbles? Not satisfied with nationalising the banks and the property market through NAMA, some are seriously considering nationalising our second largest insurer. This is insanity. Matthew Elderfields’ intervention in QIL is in essence a battle between QIL and the Quinn Group. We should not be a party to ensuring Quinn can dilute insurance solvency principles in order to retain his empire.

QIL is the cash cow of the Quinn Group. It accounts for €1bn or 50% of their annual revenue. Insurance is a cash flow-rich business. You receive the premium income up front, pour the money into assets and await claims. Seán Quinn admits he lost €3bn in share investment speculation, including Anglo and McInerney. Other assets in the group in construction and hotels have been impaired. The financial regulator is seeking to protect Quinn Direct, Quinn Healthcare, its policyholders and claimants. The 40% solvency ratio is being compromised by demands for guarantees on assets by other parts of the Quinn Group.

AND this conflict of control of QIL, thereby preserving the Quinn Group as a whole, is at the heart of next Monday’s High Court hearing. The bailout of US insurance giant AIG cost $182bn. Quinn is furiously lobbying ministers to lean on the regulator and broker a deal. This seems to imply the regulator’s office was previously a political puppet. Corporate deceit was commonplace. We have no obligations to these chancers. The courts and administrators should be allowed to act independent of any political interference.

Last week’s recapitalisation of AIB and Bank of Ireland (BoI) may transpire to be unduly optimistic. BoI is set to raise €2.7bn privately. The NAMA bad loan transfers were reduced from €16bn to €12bn. The bank will have to nurse these loans. It seems bad debt provision is being minimised to avert state majority share holding. They may be back in several months for more state cash and resultant nationalisation.

AIB may have overvalued its Polish and American bank assets resulting in a further state cash call. Non-NAMA losses in Nationwide and EBS still may be underestimated. Any spare state finance will need to be kept for genuinely systemic banks. We cannot preclude another round of recapitalisation. The woes of Anglo, DDDA, Quinn Group and Nationwide are primarily about facing up to insolvency. The Government has offered unlimited protection to underwrite these liabilities. This emperor has no clothes. It’s now time to change course. We have reached the point where the solvency of the sovereign state is in jeopardy. We must plead inability to pay. The cure is worse than the disease. The "least worst" option is to allow market forces to prevail.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 01:58:32 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 02:09:43 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

Not many are.

The Yates article above has some very interesting points not least Quinn's lobbying of the politicians to influence the regulator. It seems our political scumbags will probably be the root cause of everything which of course explains Lenny's reluctance to investigate what happened.

Now what colour shirts should we march in when we are on Kildare street?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 08, 2010, 02:49:09 PM
dont know if it was mentioned on here already but did anyone hear vincent browne interviewed on radio tues/wed evening on the radio (newstalk I think).
he was going balistic over us paying to bail out the banks, yet the banks would shaft any lender who similarly defaulted on being able to pay out on their financial mistakes !
fantastic to listen to (if not somewhat maddening).
I usually think vincent is a daft oul trout, but he was spot on here.
We should not be taking this lying down as vincent said we are doing as a country.
maybe as a sop to the workers, in lieu of bailing the banks out, each person of working age should get €100,000 !! (my opinion not something vincent said)
anyhow
What colour shirts do we wear when marching on kildare st ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 02:49:37 PM

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.
[/quote]

That's neoliberal trade union management from Sean Quinn . There was no need for trade unions under Sean since he was like the good shepherd except that he subsequently gambled the flock on Anglo Irish. He reminds me of a tribal chieftain. Of course they love him in Fermanagh. He's the reincarnation of the the Maguire of Fermanagh.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 03:01:58 PM
That the UK regulator hasnt been called in is a relevant issue, introduced by Rois. Given that the regulator in the south hasn't a good record, commonsense would dictate that faith in it should be limited: I would have more faith in the UK one, or indeed the regulator just about anywhere else Quinn is in business.

How does that translate into a nationalistic issue? How is it 'nailing colours to the mast', or a demonstration of hating the south? Muppet indeed...

Anyway...

It does seem as though Quinn has changed his tune significantly: from 'one of the greatest errors in the history of the state', to 'technically correct'. It really does look as though the place is fucked. He has been committed to those areas,and that is why he commands such respect. Whoever takes over wont have the same loyalty, whatever about the clauses that are originally put in place.

Seafoid - how do you work that one out? Those protests are worker driven, that is indisputable. How would himself, or mgt even get away with organising them, and passing them off as worker driven, given the amount of media interest?! There never were big calls for unions in Quinns, because he treated his workers well, without having to be told to.

What I can't believe is that the national media have given it such a light touch, pardon the pun. I suppose its a side issue.

This is an organisation with no history of collective worker action, ever, yet overnight they mobilize in their thousands to attend not one rally, but 3/4 and counting. Busses have been booked - who paid? Spokespeople appear to talk to cameras and suprise, suprise, they use they same arguments made by SQ himself in the hours after the announcement and refuse to answer any questions. And everyone is allowed time off from work, no questions asked.

I'm not buying it.

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.


Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 03:14:20 PM
The argument about the business being profitable is a non sequitur. If the company is insolvent it's much easier to make money. There's no need to invest premiums in conservative  assets. QIL lost 44m in dear old Blighty last year. That's not profitable AFAIK.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 03:30:13 PM
Have to say I never heard that figure before. ( Not doubting it, just hard to keep track of all the figures) But the problem with international insurance companies is that they'll be affected by different solvency rates. I think IIRC that Ireland works of a 150% rate for insurance companies. But the UK and alot of europe work of a 100% rate. And while QI maintained a ratio of over 100% ( I think it was close to 120%) It fell below the Irish requirement of 150%. And I think this is were the "technically" term has come from. As the regulator was correct he had fallen below the 150 rate but not so much so that it would cause an effect on the company.

Again I'm not 100% on all the numbers as there's been that many thrown around in all the papers that it all gets a bit confusing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 03:54:09 PM

That's your choice. But I might know a wee bit more than others on here and I can garanttee you that this is the case. SQ nor any of the Quinns have been involved in any of the protests either organising or otherwise. Have you not noticed that most of the protests have been about saving the jobs rather than saving SQ.

Your right that there has been no history of unions within QG. That's hardly surprising considering he has been one of the best employers in the Ireland and that's including work practices. AFAI there has never been any issues between QG and the employees. Yet your trying to but a negative spin on that??

Buses were booked by the Social club which is run completely independent from QG and is run by the employees. Is it really that hard top believe people are protesting about losing their jobs?

Of course everyone is allow time of work. It was unpaid leave and considering 70% of QD are doing nothing it's hardly surprising.

Workers are told pay must be cut because of 'hard times'. The regulator and banks are told despite the 'hard times' the group remains highly profitable. Which is right?

I don't want this to be a witch hunt, because the man has done a lot of good for the area but he cannot be portrayed as some sort of angel, or a messiah laying himself at the altar of the regulator to protect his workers. Bull. The man is a cut throat businessman and in this instance he seems more than willing to manipulate workers to protect his interests.


Pay wasn't cut. Bonuses were and not throughout the group either. And the businesses are profitable just not as profitable as before the recession.
Would you have preferred job cuts to keep the bonuses?

A pay freeze is in effect a pay cut when you take inflation into account. And how much are bonuses costing QG? If we take the 5,500 employee figure at an average wage of say £20k and a bonus of 20%. £4k bonus per worker = £22mil, hardly big money to a group still making £300m and certainly not a figure which would costs jobs when the group was able to absorb an €800m loss in 2008.

Admittedly second hand, but I know of many workplace practices throughout the Group that would not be tolerated were it not for the fact that he's the only show in town in these parts. For many its a job with Quinn or move away, making them afraid to rock the boat.

That protests are against the regulator's decision, 'save our jobs' is the slogan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Well all I know is from speaking to a large amount of workers that are employed with the QG and none seem to have had any complaints. Not sure what issues you have heard in regards to this but there's been none that i am aware of. And considering the volume he employs that's quite surprising in itself.
The slogan is indeed "save our jobs" not "save SQ", which is the point I made earlier about the protests being worker organised, not Quinn organised as some tried to make out. 



Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 04:49:50 PM
It's hard not to be cynical about the interface between save our jobs and save SQ. Sean Quinn is in serious financial difficulty. If the Insurance business goes down the toilet so does the fortune of SQ. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 04:58:36 PM
QI can still exist if it's taken of SQ (All be it in my belief not for long!!) That would still save the jobs but still destroys SQ. The Jobs, which is what people are protesting for, can still survive even in the event of taking it of SQ.
Don't get me wrong, there is still a hugh support from the protesters for SQ himself aswell as outlined before. But the protests are in response to the potential job loses.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 05:52:43 PM
QI can still exist if it's taken of SQ (All be it in my belief not for long!!) That would still save the jobs but still destroys SQ. The Jobs, which is what people are protesting for, can still survive even in the event of taking it of SQ.
Don't get me wrong, there is still a hugh support from the protesters for SQ himself aswell as outlined before. But the protests are in response to the potential job loses.

I'm not sure they understand the difference yet, but they will.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:04:12 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 08, 2010, 06:19:27 PM
I know SQ doesn't have alot of love for Fitzpatrick either. But no doubt it's all inter related and to be honest I'm still not too clear about all the facts and figures regarding excately what happened with Anglo. But like yourself I don't believe SQ was the reason behind the demise considering his loses are only a small portion of Anglos overall loses but I'm sure he did have an impact.
I suppose to sum up my position on what's happened so far is that I believe if the regulator works with Quinn and straighten out the solvency issues and put in measures to ensure he doesn't go beond his means again and allow him to work to pay of the debt then it would prob be the best option for the economy.
I know people will say why should he be allowed to work of his depts etc. But the other option is they take control of his businesses as payment or partical payment of his debts and try to run these companies to sell on. I know the values for these companies will drop like a stone if Quinn is taken from the helm. The result from that is the  a lot of the debt still out standing plus Quinn will have no way of paying of the debt.

I suppose this is were the issues arise over what is best to do. By the letter of the law maybe they should take the companies but the problem could be that if they do follow that path then the country and definitely Cavan and Fermanagh will be in alot worse position than if they try to work with him. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 08, 2010, 06:30:03 PM
Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 06:39:17 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.


On what basis does Sean Fitzpatrick make those allegations ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 08, 2010, 06:41:29 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 08, 2010, 06:47:49 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!

And him standing for election ?? Hilarious alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 06:53:32 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Ironically Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo and while I don't believe that, IMHO he was responsible for accelerating its demise.


On what basis does Sean Fitzpatrick make those allegations ??

http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS (http://www.examiner.ie/opinion/columnists/ivan-yates/its-time-we-pleaded-inability-to-pay-for-dead-banks-and-risky-businesses-116660.html#ixzz0kVqhr7FS)

Not my opinion OM, Ivan Yeates.

It must have been exciting for Sean Fitzpatrick though when he discovered (assuming he didn't know which might not be correct) when the share price of Anglo had started to tumble that a single person held roughly a quarter of all the stock in a CFD. Not only that but the falling stock had meant this shareholder was going to have to offload a large chuck of the stock thereby guaranteeing that the share price tumbled even more which of course could have led to him selling more and so on. This arrangement seemed very likely to cause the collapse of the Anglo share price and we now know that Anglo loaned money to a 'Golden 10' to buy Quinn out of some of his mess and thus protect the share price.

At least that's what was supposed to happen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 08, 2010, 07:58:29 PM
I'd say they are well aware of the difference which is why the protests have centred around the issue of securing the jobs first.
But I'm not surprised that most would also welcome control being given back to SQ especially when the other option at the minute is Anglo. I know who I'd put more faith into strengthing the business and saving jobs.

Saw Enniskillen protest on UTV there, people standing with posters 'C U later regulator' - made by eirigi!!! Fergal McKinney also announced that the population of Fermanagh is 6,200, hilarious stuff!

 ::)  Also quoted as saying "To many people Sean Quinn is Fermanagh and Fermanagh is Sean Quinn..."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 08, 2010, 08:07:41 PM
Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo

nothing to do with a worthless loan book
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 08:18:47 PM
Sean Fitzpatrick blames Sean Quinn for bringing down Anglo

nothing to do with a worthless loan book

Posted this somewhere else: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2009/0929/1224255430943.html)

Quote
.........narcissists avoid blame by blaming everyone else and are very good at producing scapegoats and fall guys. A narcissist never experiences guilt because he’s like the pampered dog who eats your dinner and allows itself to be chastised, only to cuddle up to you afterwards and steal your breakfast the next morning.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 08, 2010, 10:50:16 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 08, 2010, 11:02:25 PM

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: give her dixie on April 08, 2010, 11:25:57 PM





Its on the cards.......................

http://www.rte.ie/business/2010/0408/quinn.html

State-owned Anglo Irish Bank has proposed injecting €700m into Quinn Group as part of a financial restructuring package, RTÉ News has learned. The plan, if agreed, would see €150m injected into Quinn Insurance and €550m would be used to pay off bondholders.

Anglo's proposal would see money injected into Quinn Insurance to address its solvency shortfall. Other banks owed €1.2 billion would be paid off with Irish Government bonds.

Anglo would take a majority stake in Quinn Group, which has interests including wind energy and manufacturing. This deal, in effect, would mean the State helping the insurance business out of its current difficulties.

But any such plan faces significant hurdles. The Financial Regulator has concerns, and a deal would also have to be approved by the European Commission.

Last week, provisional administrators were appointed by the High Court to Quinn Insurance. The Financial Regulator said it took the court action when it became aware that certain subsidiaries of Quinn Insurance had given guarantees which have the effect of reducing the insurer's assets by around €448m. The company and regulator are due to argue their cases in court on Monday.

Insurance brokers reassured on Quinn Insurance

Earlier, the joint provisional administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance wrote to Irish insurance brokers to reassure them that the company is continuing to trade and all of its liabilities are being met.

The administrators said the letter was a response to comments and information issued by the Irish Brokers Association (IBA).

The administrators, Paul McCann and Michael McAteer, referred to reports in the media yesterday where the IBA speculated that in certain scenarios, such as liquidation, Quinn Insurance's commercial customers would have limited access to the Insurance Compensation Fund.

Today's letter told brokers that during an administration procedure, by law, the company cannot be placed into liquidation.

'In the history of the administration process since it was introduced in 1983, no company which has gone into administration has gone into liquidation. We therefore write to reassure you that the legal position set out by the Insurance Brokers Association is not relevant as QIL is in administration,' the letter says.

'We may apply to the High Court to have access to the Insurance Compensation Fund for any sums which we and the court consider are required to enable us to carry on the business of QIL and to perform our other functions under the relevant legislation,' the provisional administrators said.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 08, 2010, 11:33:18 PM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 12:31:17 AM
Where does this Anglo deal leave Sean Quinn himself ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 09, 2010, 01:25:44 AM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Sure arent all us taxpayers subsidising vhi any way. and all us non vhi health insurance subscribers are subsidising it on the double. What have they got in assets , equity or liquidity? Good job the regulator has his hands full now . better to be chasing the non subsidised Quinn , cos  god forbid that  you look at the state of the quinn subsidied vhi. Work to different rules??   Yeah . wanna play me at soccer? you can play by the normal rules and im allowed to handle the ball. Oh, and im picking the ref.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 08:21:39 AM
Unreal stuff now - Is this officially a Quanglo then?????
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 08:29:50 AM
I see on Primtetime last night at last somebody in the media (bar John McManus) has the balls to place the blame for this situation exactly where it belongs...at SQ's door.  I hope people in Fermanagh were watching.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 08:58:26 AM
When is the Regulator going to go after VHI ??

Seems to me like someone in government saw a one million a day cash cow as a solution to a raft of problems and  managed to encourage a member of the opposition to go get it for them. Neat.

This man speaks sense.
Great quote on the narcissist there, seanie doesn't seem to understand that the house of cards was not built on solid foundations, as seafoid points out, maybe the loan book had some impact too!

Why do you want the regulator to go after VHI?  VHI is semi-state, it's effectively the states alternative to funding a reasonable health service, imo VHI should work to different rules and the other guys should be subsidising it, unless of course we'd prefer the US system.
Sure arent all us taxpayers subsidising vhi any way. and all us non vhi health insurance subscribers are subsidising it on the double. What have they got in assets , equity or liquidity? Good job the regulator has his hands full now . better to be chasing the non subsidised Quinn , cos  god forbid that  you look at the state of the quinn subsidied vhi. Work to different rules??   Yeah . wanna play me at soccer? you can play by the normal rules and im allowed to handle the ball. Oh, and im picking the ref.
well if you get to pick your team from vhi subscribers and I get to pick from the other health insurer subscribers, it'll hardly matter that you can handle the ball, my team will win anyway ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 09:45:18 AM
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that it was simply a matter of getting the bondholders to release their guarantees, that these bondholders had been approached and were willing to play ball, this week we hear that anglo are trying to buy said bonds from the bondholders at a discount, thereby inferring that the bonds aren't worth their face value and that it would be a damned stupid bondholder who would release the guarantee from the performing company.
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that the regulator had performed one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the state, this week we hear that he was technically correct.

Starting to remind me of Bertie, the only difference is that Bertie was a successful gambler :D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 09:50:10 AM
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that it was simply a matter of getting the bondholders to release their guarantees, that these bondholders had been approached and were willing to play ball, this week we hear that anglo are trying to buy said bonds from the bondholders at a discount, thereby inferring that the bonds aren't worth their face value and that it would be a damned stupid bondholder who would release the guarantee from the performing company.
Last week in his rte appeal to the masses SQ told us that the regulator had performed one of the biggest mistakes in the history of the state, this week we hear that he was technically correct.

Starting to remind me of Bertie, the only difference is that Bertie was a successful gambler :D :D

Looks like the porkies have been flowing.  Question:  does the proposed €700mill injection mooted by RTE cover the €484mill of guarantees?  In other words is it covering the guarantees plus another €216mill or is it €700mill "cash" to make QI solvent??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bensars on April 09, 2010, 09:54:37 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 10:00:29 AM
We are told that all insurance companies in the state have to have a 150% solvency level. Quinn needs around 100million to reach this level.Not 400million and definitely not 700million.

Does VHI (which is an Insurance provider) have a 150% solvency level?? What does it matter if it is semi-state or state run?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:05:26 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%
The other 600m is to cover his bonds in America which he is claiming he does not want or need as he is fit to cover these bonds and has never defaulted payment on these.

But things look very bleak at the minute.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 10:07:23 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?

The administrators confirmed yesterday that according to Southern law a company in administration cannot be liquidated...but I suppose it can be sold??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:15:21 AM
Is the announcement expected today that QI will be put into permanent( if thats the trerm) administration ?

If so, what will be the implications ?

The administrators confirmed yesterday that according to Southern law a company in administration cannot be liquidated...but I suppose it can be sold??

There is no way the Government is going to liquidate a profitable company. Like QMP says they'll prob take it, run it and hope to sell QI on. The problem being that by that stage QI will have dropped in value like a stone.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 10:28:03 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%

That depends. Where are the assets of the company invested? If they are in the equivalent of horse number 4 in the 3.15 at Lingfield
100% is not sufficient.

The other question is what calls there are on the assets allocated to solvency.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:36:06 AM
Indeed, I'm only pointing out that only £100m of that is to cover the solvency ratio to bring it back up to the required 150% rate (It's this rate regardless of were the assests are invested).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 10:40:33 AM
supersarsfields...would you agree that if anyone is to "blame" for this situation then it is Sean Quinn??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 10:40:59 AM
Quinn does only need £100M for to solve the solvency ratios which as I said yesterday were below the 150 required for Ireland. They were at approx 120%. Which is not unsafe by any measure considering in other economies the ratio needed is only 100%

That depends. Where are the assets of the company invested? If they are in the equivalent of horse number 4 in the 3.15 at Lingfield
100% is not sufficient.
The other question is what calls there are on the assets allocated to solvency.   

Em I think everybody knows that,sure isn't that what the whole fuss is over. Would it not make sense for the Government to loan QIL the 100 or so Million needed to meet the solvency ratio? Its a profitable business which can pay it back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 10:49:15 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 10:52:15 AM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.
Theirs is due to a general incompetence / inability to face up to the consultants rather than covertly covering some fellas gambling debts !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 11:01:10 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement?

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 09, 2010, 11:10:52 AM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.
Theirs is due to a general incompetence / inability to face up to the consultants rather than covertly covering some fellas gambling debts !


The regulator can't go after the VHI ..

It's not within his remit yet ....  http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715137.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0120/1224262715137.html)

Lots more discussion on Quinn here : http://www.politics.ie/economy/127508-anglo-quinnish-bankinsurance-aka-quanglo-16.html (http://www.politics.ie/economy/127508-anglo-quinnish-bankinsurance-aka-quanglo-16.html)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 11:14:37 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 11:24:57 AM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

I'd say that I believe he fell under his solvency rates for Ireland and I suppose he has to shoulder the blame for that. And the risks he took with Anglo.
But I don't believe the best way out of this was putting the business into adminstration. When Quinn was in charge he was running a profitable ship, and was paying of the debt that he owed. My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.

Now with what has happened there is a fair chance QI will be ruined, jobs lost and SQ left with no way of paying the debt of.

Now do you believe the regulators worked in the best interest of the economy as a whole including jobs, debts etc or could they have followed a less aggressive tactic in reaching an agreement?

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)

I wouldn't be rushing to lionise him either, but considering he is in a position to pay of his debts (Unlike others who have just folded and left Anglo with the debt) and the fact that he has been loyal to the area with regards to saving jobs, keeping the work in Ireland etc they could have come to an arrangement. Remember the regulator put QI into provisional adminstration without allowing QG a chance to counter or even be at the hearing. True they are "techinially" right  ;) but was it the best way of sorting out the mess? Surely a solution that allows the debt to be paid over time while maintaining employment and putting safe guards in place to deal with the solvency issues would be better to the alternative.   
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: boojangles on April 09, 2010, 12:02:03 PM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling?
I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees.
He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 12:33:34 PM
Wonder will the regulator now go after VHI??
Tthey've always been (technically) insolvent and the regulator has turned a blind eye as it's mainly because the government owns them.

is that not the point though, since they're state owned they're only insolvent if the state is insolvent and that would never happen :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2010, 12:36:21 PM

Maybe if QI had worked with the Regulator....

I can agree with a lot of what you say ss, but QI has previous in this field and the main aggression I see in the whole situation was SQ's agressive pursuit of what??...money, power, ego...with Anglo. 

My position is this...I have total sympathy with the employees, I hope a resolution is found that protects all the jobs.  The Group is so big in this area it cannot be allowed to fail, it is as important to the local economy here as any bank is to the national interest.  Therefore I am actually in favour of some intervention/bail out.  But what irks me is the rush to lionise SQ when it is clear his actions have brought the Group to its knees. 

Just my €700mill worth...or is it 100mill or 150 mill ;)

Good post.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 12:43:49 PM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?     
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 09, 2010, 12:53:51 PM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   

  :D excellent
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:01:42 PM
Why you asking me that?  ;)

My view is that had the regulator worked with QI, put in measures to prevent the solvency rates falling below 150 again and continued to allow him to pay of his debt then this would have been the best option for the economy, his employees, SQ himself and for the government.



Quinn and the regulator had previously agreed on a plan whereby QI would limit the amount of lossmaking business it wrote in the UK but Quinn subsequently ignored this. I have the feeling Quinn thought he could do whatever he wanted regulation wise.

You have a feeling? I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.
He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   

If the business is sold there'll be job losses. How many will be unknown. If it's bought by a larger insurance firm there's a chance they could move the call centres to another country which would reduce hugh costs for them. But the results from that will be massive job losses in an area that can't afford them.
He was told when starting QI that he'll never be able to run an irish insurance company successfully. He did and created thousands of jobs that otherwise wouldn't be there now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 01:29:23 PM
In the short term, there will be plenty of noise about how a deal has been brokered so that the jobs will stay where they are, and the government will pat themselves on the back. In the long term, noone will have the commitment to that area Quinn has had, and the first chance the new owners get, they'll pull out, leaving that whole part of the country completely fucked.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 09, 2010, 01:33:27 PM
I have a feeling some people are just glad to watch a home grown Billionaire, who did more than any of us could ever to do for this economy,fall on his knees. He loaned some of his subsidaries money that weren't doing as well as others. Thats going on everywhere,just on a smaller scale. He never broke any laws. Some people should remember that.He took unprecedented gambles as regards Anglo-Irish but by heck is he going to pay for it.

He ran the insurance company like a cowboy. He let his employees down. He got caught out regulator wise. He probably thought Neary would continue ad infinitum. He cut a deal with the regulator and subsequently broke it. It's not a witch hunt. This is how regulation is supposed to work.

If the business is solid then what's the worry ? If average salaries are around 20,000€ aren't the jobs likely to stay in borderestan ?   
[/quote]

If the business is sold there'll be job losses. How many will be unknown. If it's bought by a larger insurance firm there's a chance they could move the call centres to another country which would reduce hugh costs for them. But the results from that will be massive job losses in an area that can't afford them.
He was told when starting QI that he'll never be able to run an irish insurance company successfully. He did and created thousands of jobs that otherwise wouldn't be there now.
[/quote]

If regulations aren't laws what are they?  Apparently a file may be passed to the guards.

Is it likely that the jobs would be moved out of ireland?  I know FBD have their call centres here, I imagine hibernian do too, I would have thought that something like insurance call centres would be more lkely to stay in ireland, not as easy formulaic as mst operations?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 01:43:24 PM
Was he just the "cowboy" that was left standing so that he could be made an example out of ?


Given the 70 billion that is needed to recapitalise the banking industry, 100 million doesn't seem much.


But obviously I don't know the full details like some of you here do.

File being passed to the gardai ??? For what ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 01:51:37 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

You're caught up in it I know  - but did SQ's Primetime performance not give you heart and optimism ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 09, 2010, 01:56:02 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 01:58:26 PM
At this stage I'm just worn down by everything to be honest. One day of optimism is followed by a day of depressing news. I just can't see it working out the way I would like it to.

I'm just guessing we'll know more by Monday evening one way or the other.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 09, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
What is the next move by the Regulator likely to be ?

If the solvency ratio requirement is acheived surely's that it ??? Out of administration or is it not just as black and white as all of that ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 09, 2010, 02:02:04 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

Sincerely hope things work out best for you ss.  Good luck.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 09, 2010, 02:08:33 PM
They'll probably cut a deal with Quinn that saves the jobs and tells him to stop f**king around with the solvency margin, stop writing as much  loss making business in the UK , stop treating the livelihoods of 5500 decent people as his personal fiefdom, that sort of thing.

It's not as if FF is going to have a snowball's in the next election anyway but this is no time to sacrifice decent jobs.
I hope things work out for you, supersars. There is nothing worse jobwise than not knowing what the next month is going to bring for your employer.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 09, 2010, 02:12:48 PM
maybe I shouldnt be saying this in case its Quinns plan and i'm letting the cat out of the bag with my hypothetical potential scenario.

Quinn allows the portions or the whole lot to be bought over by aviva or some big insurance company.
they take the call centre business out of the country to eastern europe etc - wherever !

The buildings are then put up for sale for pittance as they are of no use to anyone.

However , then Quinn sets up the same operation all over again, but having maybe gained some money and shaken off all of his debt into the bargain by this manouvre !

If you think this is a stupid or crazy suggestion, then remember its exactly what Dermot Desmond did in selling NCB stockbrokers , pocketing hundreds of millions and then starting up the same business under IIU and attracting back all his old customers from NCB - and there wasnt a thing NCB could do about it !

I'd love that to happen !
(pass on the debts to a large non-Irish  insurance multinational and retain all the jobs!)
 :)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Geoff Tipps on April 09, 2010, 02:14:17 PM
Quote
Is it likely that the jobs would be moved out of ireland?  I know FBD have their call centres here, I imagine hibernian do too, I would have thought that something like insurance call centres would be more lkely to stay in ireland, not as easy formulaic as mst operations?

I think they do have a call centre here as an initial starting point for customers  but they've definitely re-located the data processing and claims recovery services. If they were to acquire Quinn there's every chance these jobs would be re located to Bangalore as well.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 09, 2010, 02:29:41 PM
Cheers QMP & Seafoid.

One thing I've wondered about and maybe someone could help me out. There's obviously two issues involved here. The issue of QG owing Anglo £3 Billion. Then a seperate issue of the Solvency ratios.

Just wondering lets say QI still broke the solvency ratios but didn't owe the Anglo debt. Would the corse of action still be taking over the business?
Or alternatively if QI hadn't broken the solvency ratios but obviously still owed the debt would they still have taken over the business?

Or is it just a case that the solvency ratios gave Anglo a chance and reason to take over QI by using the regulator?
(Serious question here and I'm not trying to deflect from the two major issues here regarding QG and QI)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 09, 2010, 02:36:13 PM
Quote
Just wondering lets say QI still broke the solvency ratios but didn't owe the Anglo debt. Would the corse of action still be taking over the business?
In a real regulatory environment yes
Quote
Or alternatively if QI hadn't broken the solvency ratios but obviously still owed the debt would they still have taken over the business?

I'd have thought this would be between the Bank and it's creditors and it's up to the bank to take action

Quote
Or is it just a case that the solvency ratios gave Anglo a chance and reason to take over QI by using the regulator
?
I think so yes
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on April 09, 2010, 02:44:34 PM
supersarsfields, i'm guessing your in the same boat as myself, my better half works for QI and for the last week or more its been a constant concern about whats going to happen........im still hopeful that whatever happens, jobs can be retained in the area cos there is nothing else about.........

Its just a complete mess................
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 09, 2010, 05:27:54 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 10, 2010, 03:52:43 AM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 10, 2010, 07:40:06 PM
What's the latest ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 10, 2010, 09:24:29 PM

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
Is it not the case that Quinn's net worth rose from approx 1Bn in 2000 to an estimated 4.5Bn precisely because of such gambles in the first place?  If so, was SQ's only crime not knowing when to leave the table?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 11, 2010, 11:23:11 PM
Anyone have any insight into what's going to happen tomorrow with the administrators ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on April 12, 2010, 12:30:45 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 12, 2010, 01:15:36 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: thewobbler on April 12, 2010, 01:25:50 PM
My grasp of big boy economics is on a par with your average garden toad, but surely the 100m euro or so that Quinn is short, is nothing compared to the amount of money that Irish development boards and employment agencies have spent and will continue to spend, in order to bring foreign companies and their various employment opportunities to Ireland?

I'm not sponsoring the idea that major companies can do what they like, but surely as an indigenous company that has made a long-term commitment to employment in Ireland you might expect not be made an example of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 01:32:13 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??

Just wondering did anyone hear the Quinn chief operations manager on Radio 1 yesterday morning. The arrogance of the man, his point was if Quinn insurance is taken from the Quinn  group, the taxpayer will not get the 2.8 billion Anglo money back. The regualtor should first and foremost protect the taxpayer and worry about the rules been adhered to, secondly. he failed to see the point that Quinn insurance money cannot be used to cover poorer performing parts of the company as this is in breach of the regulations. The panelists tied him up in knots and showed that Quinn group preservation was his priority, f##k the taxpayers and the policy holders. I hope the regulator holds firm and sends out the message to other such "too big to fail" institutions, obey the rules or pay the price, its not the taxpayers job to keep picking up the tab for these institutions' gambling and grey area dealing.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:11:37 PM
There is a postponement of court procedings until next Monday.  Will a deal be cut?

I will have to listen to Northern Sound at 1 o'clock to get the lowdown.  Never thought I'd be doing this!

Looks like Quinns are buying time to cut a deal with Anglo that the Regulator will be able to live with??

Just wondering did anyone hear the Quinn chief operations manager on Radio 1 yesterday morning. The arrogance of the man, his point was if Quinn insurance is taken from the Quinn  group, the taxpayer will not get the 2.8 billion Anglo money back. The regualtor should first and foremost protect the taxpayer and worry about the rules been adhered to, secondly. he failed to see the point that Quinn insurance money cannot be used to cover poorer performing parts of the company as this is in breach of the regulations. The panelists tied him up in knots and showed that Quinn group preservation was his priority, f##k the taxpayers and the policy holders. I hope the regulator holds firm and sends out the message to other such "too big to fail" institutions, obey the rules or pay the price, its not the taxpayers job to keep picking up the tab for these institutions' gambling and grey area dealing.
would somewhat agree - but why are we doing exactly this for the banks then ? but not for quinns?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:13:30 PM
My grasp of big boy economics is on a par with your average garden toad, but surely the 100m euro or so that Quinn is short, is nothing compared to the amount of money that Irish development boards and employment agencies have spent and will continue to spend, in order to bring foreign companies and their various employment opportunities to Ireland?

I'm not sponsoring the idea that major companies can do what they like, but surely as an indigenous company that has made a long-term commitment to employment in Ireland you might expect not be made an example of.
good point
a gov agency wastes more money than this per year
Enterprise ireland, IDA etc
sure a cousin of mine who worked in the science foundation said that they get 200 million per year to divy out - of which 35 jobs have been created in about 10 years
what a waste
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 02:16:24 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
you might look at it as peoples livlihoods having been gambled with - but for the people in these jobs, this is the only show in town. th eonly employer in this area (save for MBNA) that can give decent employment outside of Dublin.

Their continuing jobs is all they are thinking of.
plus quinn didnt do much more different than many other money men of the past 10-15 years , only he is one of the few left standing...others like mcnamaras have gone into liquidation/bankruptcy and their money is gone (a lot of it still at hand in their wives names etc)...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 03:26:37 PM
I honestly don't know what would happen in the result of another insurance company taking over. There are quite a few insurance conmpanies that use a UK based offices which would take away the need for a local NI or Ireland one. There are also some of the larger international insurance companies that have their call centres farther away again ( Which unfortuinately I've had loads of experience with!!).
But again it's just speculation at this point until it is bought over. But the problem could be at that point it might be too late to save the jobs.

But at the minute things look very bleak from my point of view anyway.

I'm sure it can easily be demonstrated that Quinn Group is of 'systemic' importance to the Fermanagh/Cavan region. With that in mind I'd be confident that a deal of some description will be done to protect jobs and have some future for some of the businesses. That future may not be on the staff's terms and almost certainly won't be on Sean Quinn's terms but hopefully there will be a future for all the employees nonetheless.

However presenting Quinn as a victim or hero or whatever won't help the real victims who are the staff.

There will be a loada empty promises as usual, nothing else. The reason Quinn commands such loyalty is that he has been loyal to the area. Most people realise that saving quinn and saving their jobs are very closely linked, cos anyone who buys it over will be outta there as soon as the deal allows.

I don't understand how people whose livelihood have been gambled can see it that way. If you see Quinn as owning the staff then fine, but if you see him as having a shred of responsibility to the staff that helped him along the road then I wouldn't agree.

I still see the staff as innocents here and sincerely hope it works out for them. I have no sympathy for the man who gambled €3 Billion on a CFD. I don't agree with you that if someone else takes over that the jobs are gone but I accept that it is a variable and we won't know for sure until it happens. In that case ironically Anglo might be the best bet.
you might look at it as peoples livlihoods having been gambled with - but for the people in these jobs, this is the only show in town. th eonly employer in this area (save for MBNA) that can give decent employment outside of Dublin.

Their continuing jobs is all they are thinking of.
plus quinn didnt do much more different than many other money men of the past 10-15 years , only he is one of the few left standing...others like mcnamaras have gone into liquidation/bankruptcy and their money is gone (a lot of it still at hand in their wives names etc)...

Agree with everything that has been said, but external people were appointed to these key positions (regualtor, central bank boss)  so that we could turn away from the "nod and the wink culture" that has existed here almost since the foundation of the state. I agree that it must be tough for these workers and their families, but we are at a cross roads here, do we (the tax payer) keep on bailing every rule bender and breaker ,or do we draw a line in the sand and be like every other mature society in the western world by having proper coperate governence and if high risks are taken by these executive boards, then they are the ones with ALL of the risk with no liability to the tax payer. If Quinn's gamble paid off, would Anglo be any quicker getting their money back ?Wasn't it quick Anglo were to arrive with 700 million to "help"Quinn out, he already owes 2.8 billion to the Irish taxpayer, so what is 700 million more? Do these people think we are just here to hand money out to them every time they gamble and get it wrong?How many thousands of jobs could be saved if that money was put into the SME sector to help small companies?  As usual the big mickeys get all the help from their friends in high places and the small fish, including the people who work for Quinn in the border region are left out in the cold. I think Quinn thought that there would be a parachute for him if his gamble didn't work out and now that the climate has changed so much he is left holding the dirty end of the stick.Its time for a change and if these external experts are turning out not to be the "yes" men of the past, well maybe then this country has a chance of getting out of this hole we are in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 12, 2010, 03:32:41 PM
quinn like most others, didnt expect the economy to go belly up - he gambled and lost out.

I still find it disgusting that the banks are being bailed out, that the gov or the people bailing them out (ie us) are getting nothing for our trouble
meanwhile by going down from AA rating to AA for the duration, these banks cost us an additional 4.3 billion in extra interest rates to world bank.


I'd expect something for our trouble - either to no reposess houses or to give every person 50 or 100 grand.
I'm not joking either.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: An Gaeilgoir on April 12, 2010, 03:45:19 PM
quinn like most others, didnt expect the economy to go belly up - he gambled and lost out.

I still find it disgusting that the banks are being bailed out, that the gov or the people bailing them out (ie us) are getting nothing for our trouble
meanwhile by going down from AA rating to AA for the duration, these banks cost us an additional 4.3 billion in extra interest rates to world bank.


I'd expect something for our trouble - either to no reposess houses or to give every person 50 or 100 grand.
I'm not joking either.

I heard some tax expert on the radio a while back, who said that it would have cost less to pay off all the mortgages in the state than NAMA costs and that all the extra money in peoples pockets would have ended the recession there and then. But would we as a nation have learned our lesson or would the "boom" have started again. We as a nation are not good at learning lessons.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 12, 2010, 04:03:27 PM


I heard some tax expert on the radio a while back, who said that it would have cost less to pay off all the mortgages in the state than NAMA costs and that all the extra money in peoples pockets would have ended the recession there and then. But would we as a nation have learned our lesson or would the "boom" have started again. We as a nation are not good at learning lessons.

That sounds like a bit of a stretch. NAMA is going to cost something like €50bn + annual interest. O/S Mortgages in total exceed €100bn. BoI has a book of €29bn and about 25% of the market.  NAMA is about plugging the hole in commercial lending. EVEN IF the Gov't paid off the mortgages in full the banks would still be banjaxed on the commercial side.

The idea that NAMA will somehow work a miracle for domestic mortgages is deluded. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 04:23:59 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 12, 2010, 05:59:11 PM
Quote
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.

I suppose you can see Tyrone winning the All Ireland as well.  ;D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:10:06 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 09:36:23 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 12, 2010, 09:54:09 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2010, 10:51:42 PM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?

I thought it was only 100-150 million on order to restore the 150% solvency ratio ??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 01:25:29 AM
I could be deluded as well but I can see Quinn getting all this sorted out by the end of the week and back to business as usual by next Monday.
the meeja down here don't agree with you, it was adjourned today simply because quinn's affidavit was so large and arrived in an hour before the hearing, a cynic would say that was its purpose.

Maybe a week will give him the time required to rectify the solvency ratio by gathering up a 100-150 million which should keep the regulator quiet ??. Wishful thinking ?.
don't know, starting to lose track of this a bit, but is it not €400m that's needed?  I know they've been saying that Anglo need €700m to go ahead with saving Quinn, presumably that's in order to buy out the bondholders?

I thought it was only 100-150 million on order to restore the 150% solvency ratio ??
did they not say initially that the (previously unknown, or previously disclosed, depending on who you're talking to) guarantees for €500m were the reason the solvency ratio was out of kilter, since it now looks like these guarantees are what gives the bonds their value, then in order to release them, the bondholders would have to be paid back the full amount owing?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 09:03:18 AM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 12:00:28 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 12:26:55 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.
but is the point not that the guarantees have to be released, and the only way that will happen is by buying the bonds back at face value (or below as I believe Anglo are trying to negotiate).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 13, 2010, 12:40:00 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2010, 12:58:29 PM
No doubt. Like i say I'm only going on what I've heard. It's a hard process trying to follow all the facts and figures.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 01:35:07 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.


That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 13, 2010, 01:51:01 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.

That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.

That would be good craic alright! 'Mr Quinn, you're a big liar', 'Am not!', Are so!'  :D

I think to a certain extent the regulator is indifferent to the figures. The main point is Quinn has operated below the required solvency levels for years and continues to do so, despite being warned a couple of years back. I keep hearing this phrase 'total breakdown of trust' and I think that may be the reall issue here. The regulator sees Quinn as a risk taker, a cowboy maybe, and not someone he wants involved in the future of the Quinn Insurance company.

Another thing I noticed which I haven't been able to figure out. SQ phones prime time and gives his little speech about Quinn Insurance having 'loadsamoney'- which many reported as a rejection of the Anglo bid, yet the directors of QIL spoke very favourably about the Anglo proposal. Now surely if they had plenty of money Quinn wouldn't want to lose control for the sake of an extra €150m liquidity?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on April 13, 2010, 02:18:59 PM
It'll take 150 M to shore up the solvency ratios. And I think I heard the other 600 was for bonds that SQ has in America or something. However SQ maintains he doesn't want or need the 600 as he has never defaulted in paying these and wants to continue to do so.

Again all this is going on what I've picked up but might not be gospel.

That was / is my understanding of the situation. If it is there's a chance that Quinn can retrieve the situation. If it is not, then he's in trouble.

The above is Sean Quinn's version. The Regulator has a different story. One of them is being economical with the truth.

To avoid the speculation and Quinn trying to portray him wrongly, why does the Regulator not come out and call him a liar ( if he is a liar ) ?.

That would be good craic alright! 'Mr Quinn, you're a big liar', 'Am not!', Are so!'  :D

I think to a certain extent the regulator is indifferent to the figures. The main point is Quinn has operated below the required solvency levels for years and continues to do so, despite being warned a couple of years back. I keep hearing this phrase 'total breakdown of trust' and I think that may be the reall issue here. The regulator sees Quinn as a risk taker, a cowboy maybe, and not someone he wants involved in the future of the Quinn Insurance company.

Another thing I noticed which I haven't been able to figure out. SQ phones prime time and gives his little speech about Quinn Insurance having 'loadsamoney'- which many reported as a rejection of the Anglo bid, yet the directors of QIL spoke very favourably about the Anglo proposal. Now surely if they had plenty of money Quinn wouldn't want to lose control for the sake of an extra €150m liquidity?

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 03:09:02 PM
Sadly it lools like the whole Quinn group would suffer if the Insurance company either fails or if it is sold off.

There'd be a whole lot more than 700 families effected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 13, 2010, 04:26:38 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 04:29:42 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: no mo do yakamo on April 13, 2010, 06:47:26 PM
Thats what will happen if Anglo get their hands on it!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 13, 2010, 09:01:18 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
sean quinn said as much himself, he said that given the money he was making at Quinn Insurance he'd be able to pay off his anglo debts in no time, or words to that effect.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 13, 2010, 10:41:42 PM
Quinn interim director appointed 
 
Quinn Insurance employs 600 people in County Fermanagh
A company has been assigned to the Quinn Group to provide financial restructuring services.

It was announced on Tuesday that Talbot Hughes McKillop LLP (THM) will assist the company to "work through the Group's current issues".

THM partner, Mr Murdoch McKillop, has also been appointed interim executive director of Quinn Group Ltd.
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gortnaleck on April 13, 2010, 11:51:23 PM
I never hear anything about his brother Peter anymore. Has he left the company ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: johnneycool on April 14, 2010, 11:03:36 AM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?


Was / is that the case ?.
sean quinn said as much himself, he said that given the money he was making at Quinn Insurance he'd be able to pay off his anglo debts in no time, or words to that effect.

Forgive my ignorance on the legalities of this but what's wrong with Sean Quinn using a wing of his company to shore up his personal liabilities? I'm sure it was his quarry/building materials/hostilery business which provided the colateral to buy the insurance wing of BUPA or whoever it was pulled out in the first place.

If he's broke the law, prosecute him through the courts but let a viable company still run as such. Going into administration is a stigma which will put people off taking out or renewing policies and will drive the business into the ground.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerrykeegan on April 14, 2010, 11:28:17 AM
He is using others peoples money to shore up his liabilities. When the Independent Insurance company went bang in 2001, thousands of people lost their money. People are still paying off personal liability claims nearly 10 years later. He could not be allowed to continue to break regulatory laws.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: trileacman on April 14, 2010, 01:34:33 PM

If QIL are outside the rules in terms of required solvency levels then how is putting the company in administration going to help the company, its employees and the insuree's on its books?

Surely it'd be better to sit down with QIL and agree a 2 to 4 year plan to get them back on track as there aren't too many company's allegedly turning over €30/40 a month in profits and employing 700 odd people in Cavan and Fermanagh. If Sean Quinn has ignored warnings in the past and is breaking the law then put him through the courts with the threat of a custodial sentence otherwise it looks like the new financial regulator is looking to make a name for himself which in itself is alright but don't cut your nose off to spite your face and put 700 odd people out of work to make a point.

Well for one it will stop any further guarantees being made over QIL's assets.

The regulator has no duty towards the employees, so if he thinks the best option for policyholders is a sale to a big player like AXA/Aviva then thats what happens. And for my 2p I don't think the actions were necessarily to make a point. The regulator seemed to be in a situation where the 2nd largest insurer in the state had made massive guarantees to bail out its parent group. What if there were more guarantees? What if there were further massive losses in the parent group?

How could he continue to allow a situation to continue where an insurance company is run as a cash cow to support another entity?
If the Regulator has no duty of care over Irish people then what exactly is his role? To apply legislation at the expense of the Irish people?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 14, 2010, 03:41:19 PM

If the Regulator has no duty of care over Irish people then what exactly is his role? To apply legislation at the expense of the Irish people?

His duty is solely towards policy holders of QIL.

What if QIL's solvency levels were far worse than disclosed or the banks called in their loans and at the same time QIL encountered a glut of big claims? Can you imagine the mess if there was a major storm etc and QIL couldn't cover the claims?

I hope a way out can be found for the sake of the workers, because if the Quinn Group folds its adios to the Fermanagh/Cavan/Lietrim border area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 15, 2010, 02:11:35 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0415/quinn.html


Quinn to withdraw opposition to administrators
Thursday, 15 April 2010 13:57

The Quinn Group is to tell the High Court that it will not object to the permanent appointment of administrators to Quinn Insurance.

RTÉ News has learned the development could come before the courts today.

A spokesman for the Quinn group has declined to comment.

This move marks a significant shift in the position of the Quinn Group in recent days.

It is understood the company has now come to the conclusion that Quinn Insurance would have a better chance if it was dealing with a full-time administrator.

The company has been increasingly concerned about the damage it is suffering as a result of the ban on it doing business in Northern Ireland and the UK.

If the administrators are appointed, it would clear the way for them to sell the insurance company if they see fit.

Yesterday, Financial Regulator Matthew Elderfield told an Oireachtas Committee that the motivation of his office was to protect policy holders.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 15, 2010, 04:21:40 PM


Permanent Administrators have been appointed ...

Quinn Insurance get permanent administrators


 Thursday, 15 April 2010 16:07
The High Court has appointed permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns was told that the company was no longer opposing the Financial Regulator's application to have the provisional administrators appointed at the end of last month made permanent.

The High Court was told there had been considerable progress made between the parties since the matter was last in court on Monday.

AdvertisementSenior Counsel Michael Cush said the company was now consenting to an order appointing permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance.

Mr Justice Nicholas Kearns said that having read the material presented to him, he was satisfied this was an appropriate case in which to make such an order.

He said it didn't follow that that meant every assertion made by the regulator was accepted or every assertion made by Quinn Insurance was rejected.

However, he said there was sufficient material before him to make the order.

The judge appointed Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton as administrators to the company.

He also granted them the power to act separately if necessary.

Mr Justice Kearns said it was important to stress, particularly in view of the concerns of employees that part of the statutory function of the administrators was to carry on the business as a going concern with a view to placing it on a sound commercial footing.

Lawyers for the administrators said they wished to deliver their first report in a month.

The case will be mentioned before the court again on the 20 May.

In a statement, Jim Quigley, Chairman of Quinn Insurace Ltd, said:'This decision has been taken after very careful consideration.

'We have concluded that, given what has happened, it is in the best interests of the Company, our employees and policyholders that, as a matter of urgency, we work closely with the Administrators and the Financial Regulator to get the situation resolved as quickly as possible.

In particular, we would hope that working together we can find a way to re-commence business in the United Kingdom.'


The company has been increasingly concerned about the damage it is suffering as a result of the ban on it doing business in Northern Ireland and the UK.

Yesterday, Financial Regulator Matthew Elderfield told an Oireachtas Committee that the motivation of his office was to protect policy holders.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2010, 07:13:40 PM
What can we read into this permanent appointment and the assertion that much progress has been made by the parties since Monday and consequently Quinn's withdrawl of his opposition ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 15, 2010, 07:17:05 PM
6.1 news seemed to infer that this is all the doing of the new director, mckillop?  a debt restructuring expert from scotland, they think that Quinn Insurance will be sold off to help the quinn's pay back their debts and that it'll be all change within the group from there on in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2010, 07:20:44 PM
6.1 news seemed to infer that this is all the doing of the new director, mckillop?  a debt restructuring expert from scotland, they think that Quinn Insurance will be sold off to help the quinn's pay back their debts and that it'll be all change within the group from there on in.


How much is the insurance business valued at ?

If it making £360million a year, it bounds to be worth a few billion ???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mick999 on April 15, 2010, 09:48:06 PM
From another website, here is some commentary on the profitability of  QI ..

No claim as to the correctness of this info, but it is based on the 2008 report from the financial regulator ...

http://www.politics.ie/2600191-post73.html (http://www.politics.ie/2600191-post73.html)

2008 Insurance Returns on IFSRA Website
http://www.financialregulator.ie/pub...20version).pdf (http://www.financialregulator.ie/pub...20version).pdf)
Premium: c€1.1bn
Profit/Loss: Loss of €58m
Assets: c€1.8bn of which 0.5bn is classified as property
Liabilities: c€1.5bn
Solvency Cushion: c€0.36bn

Regulator Information €0.45bn of assets are impaired by guarantee
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 09:18:17 AM
Bid to end ban on Quinn UK trade

The administrators of Quinn Insurance have presented proposals to the Irish financial regulator aimed at reopening parts of the firm's UK arm. The regulator said it would give them "prompt consideration". The company was banned from writing new business in the UK last month, jeopardising hundreds of jobs in its Fermanagh offices. On Thursday the High Court in Dublin appointed permanent administrators to Quinn Insurance. That followed a dramatic u-turn by the company when it dropped its objection to the appointment of administrators. Quinn Insurance had been in temporary administration after the regulator raised concerns about its solvency levels. The group's owner, Sean Quinn, had been highly critical of the move. The administrators, Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, have asked the regulator to lift the ban in regard to certain business lines of Quinn Insurance in the UK. A report in the Irish Times on Friday suggests that Quinn would not seek to re-enter some parts of the UK market, specifically professional indemnity insurance and some motor insurance cover. In a statement, the regulator said: "The administrator is to forward further details regarding these proposals and we will give these prompt consideration. "We remain encouraged by the nature and quality of our engagement with the administrator in this and other respects."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8624482.stm
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 16, 2010, 10:06:44 AM
Support Quinn Group - Creating Irish Jobs
ONE
IN 8

 
 
Fermanagh Herald
BY NUALA MCALOON
WITH the entire community across Fermanagh anxiously awaiting the outcome of next Monday's High Court decision on the future of Quinn Insurance, the sheer enormity of the threat facing Fermanagh's economic future is starting to sink in.

With fears widespread that a bad result for Quinn Insurance next Monday could have a domino effect on the other ends of the business, including glass and cement, it is feared the county could be facing economic meltdown in a worst case scenario.

It is estimated that as many as one in eight of the Fermanagh workforce are directly employed by the Quinn Group.

With 3,000 employees working on both sides of the Fermanagh/Cavan border (1,500 in each county) and several more local businesses indirectly depending on the group to sustain the productivity of their outlets, the harsh reality of a worst case scenario in the ongoing Quinn Insurance dispute, is becoming much clearer and more devastating for the county this week.

However, amid the doom and gloom, hope does remain for the Quinn Group this week. The group said it was pleased following Monday's decision by the High Court to adjourn the financial regulator's application to have permanent administrators appointed to Quinn Insurance (QIL) for one week.

Yesterday afternoon (Tuesday), the group appointed Talbot Hughes McKillop LL, a financial restructuring firm to provide financial restructuring services to the company. In addition, THM Partner Mr Murdoch McKillop has been appointed as an interim executive director of Quinn Group Ltd.

The chief executive of Quinn Group, Liam McCaffrey, said: "Mr McKillop's role will be to assist the board and the executive management team to successfully work through the group's current issues and to ensure that executive management are not excessively diverted from the vitally important job of running our manufacturing business."

According to the latest census employment figures (2007) - there were then only 14,852 people in full-time employment here, of which 26 per cent worked in the public sector. With 1,500 working in the Quinn group north of the border and many Fermanagh people also working at the cement works just over the border at Gortmullan and Quinn Insurance headquarters in Cavan town, the group is clearly the single biggest employer in the county.

Since the last census, various sectors of the employment industry have been hit hard by the economic climate, not least in construction which then counted for 1,585 of Fermanagh's full-time jobs.

Meanwhile, in a statement following Monday's court hearing, the group said it was hopeful that the adjournment will provide time to progress meaningful discussions towards an overall resolution.

"Notwithstanding recent issues, we believe the underlying QIL business is profitable and that the operational model is robust, having brought much needed competition to the market and improved service levels to consumers.

"The Quinn Group believes that it is in the best interests of all stakeholders, and primarily the policyholders and staff, that this model is allowed to continue under whatever solution emerges. In particular we would urge the reopening of business in the UK as a matter of urgency in order to ensure sustainable future employment and preserve value in QIL.

"The Quinn Group will continue in its efforts to find an overall solution that secures the long-term position of the business and that of its employees who have been so supportive to the company, the group and the Quinn family in recent weeks."

The court hearing will take place on Monday next, April 19.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2010, 10:12:31 AM
That bottom bit is out of date now as there's not going to be a court hearing on Monday anymore.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 16, 2010, 10:14:39 AM
Most articles I have read this morning are saying that it's over as regards Quinns ownership of Quinn Insurance which obviously will have serious consequences for the other parts of gthe group.


Quinn is trying to pay his debts.


Most of the other big boys would have gone cleaned the companies and gone bust at this stage, cleaned up the debt and started again.


Quinn is trying to do pay his way but it's not acceptable.


Given what some of the bankers have got away with, I can't but feel some sympathy for him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 10:19:32 AM
My gut tells me that the Insurance employees can breathe a wee bit easier with this development but that employees in the wider Group might be sweating a bit more this morning??  What's the feeling on the "inside" supersars??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 16, 2010, 10:31:32 AM
Still up in the air QMP to be honest. QD doesn't follow the same sort of structures that other insurance companies do so people are still a wee bit worried about changes ahead. But in saying that I'd imagine that the UK market will be opened again shortly which should ease a bit of stress.
I think the other QG employees will be happy enough as well as there was talk that everything could have ended up going. I'd say this was there is a greater chance of SQ holding on to the rest of it now. This should seriously reduce the debt owed and should bring it into a more managable area.

I still don't believe we're seen the last twist in this story yet for QD.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 10:50:55 AM
Support Quinn Group - Creating Irish Jobs
ONE
IN 8

 
 
Fermanagh Herald

According to the latest census employment figures (2007) - there were then only 14,852 people in full-time employment here, of which 26 per cent worked in the public sector. With 1,500 working in the Quinn group north of the border and many Fermanagh people also working at the cement works just over the border at Gortmullan and Quinn Insurance headquarters in Cavan town, the group is clearly the single biggest employer in the county.


I thought Norn Irn got rid of counties years ago. Is it just the Tadhgs who think in terms of counties or do the other half do so too?  I imagine the GAA thing is very important in terms of keeping a sense of county belonging together. I mean where would Tyrone people be with their superiority complex over Ormaugh people without the GAA?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 16, 2010, 11:20:09 AM
You're exactly right, something I've mused over a while: the GAA is almost solely responsible for county identity in the north. Whereas I find that most nationalists would know which county towns are in, and would know which county all their acquaintances are from, i find that this would be vastly less so with the other side.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 16, 2010, 01:13:23 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 16, 2010, 01:23:06 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
?

Emotive word there for us Nordies seafoid...on the blanket, blanket defence...on a par with "puke" ;)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Ulick on April 16, 2010, 01:47:56 PM
Message to all Nordies

It is surprising the "only" 26% of Fermanagh wallas work for the Crown considering the overall percentage in the public sector for Norn Irn is closer to 2/3rds. So Fermanagh seems to be losing out.

I read in the FT that the average Norn Irn subvention from the hated British State works out to a mere £20,000 per family when you include everything.  It's good that at least some of the money goes into GAA and is thus used productively. How could NI survive without British taxpayers?  Was this dependency the ultimate shoot yourself in the foot (rather than the knee) result of the IRA's campaign of insurrection that started in the late 60s ?

Given these numbers isn't it pointless to vote along sectarian lines in the upcoming elections?     Ye should all vote for Brit parties since they are the ones who sanction your vast subsidies . Isn't Sinn Fein's abstention absolutely pointless unless accompanied by the blanket refusal of all Shinner voters to hand back their subsidy? 
?

Are you assuming we want it to survive and is the fact that the north is so dependent on Brit subsidies evidence enough that it has failed? IMO it's that Brit economic subvention to pacify and protect the unionist state which is the biggest barrier ro economic growth i.e. there is no incentive for the private sector to expand.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerry on April 16, 2010, 10:31:55 PM
heard today 170 temporary  jobs to get the p45 this monday due to downturn in business
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 16, 2010, 10:52:00 PM
heard today 170 temporary  jobs to get the p45 this monday due to downturn in business


Not good news.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: never kickt a ball on April 19, 2010, 12:01:52 AM
Let's hope they haven't insured many airlines for loss of business?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 19, 2010, 11:33:30 AM
Let's hope they haven't insured many airlines for loss of business?

 :o :o
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 09:23:42 AM
What I've been reading as past couple of days would lead you to believe that the Regulator has come round a bit and is a lot happier that the business is going in the right direction and that there would appear to be a definite plan in place with regard to writing new business outside of Ireland and with regard to ratios.


Would this be accurate Super Sars ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 10:00:27 AM
To be honest OM it's hard to tell. It seems that they have worked out alot of the problems and the regulator seems to be happier with the Company and it's profits. However they still haven't opened the UK markets which is a major market for QI. I'd imagine the UK FR might be looking into things aswell before they can go ahead to trade there again. But I'm hoping that all can be sorted pretty quickly. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 10:22:42 AM
To be honest OM it's hard to tell. It seems that they have worked out alot of the problems and the regulator seems to be happier with the Company and it's profits. However they still haven't opened the UK markets which is a major market for QI. I'd imagine the UK FR might be looking into things aswell before they can go ahead to trade there again. But I'm hoping that all can be sorted pretty quickly.


Do you get the sense that ownership of QI will ultimately rest with the Quinn Group after all this is resolved ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 10:54:50 AM
Personal View, I think he'll hold on to it. How accurate that is I don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 21, 2010, 05:17:37 PM
Quinn's UK trade ban is lifted     



Ireland's Financial Regulator has lifted restrictions placed on Quinn Insurance Ltd that prevented it from issuing new insurance cover in the UK.

On Wednesday the regulator said it would allow the firm to write new insurance cover for provisional licence holders in the United Kingdom.

The office said it had taken the decision after careful consideration.

The company is in administration after the regulator raised concerns about its solvency.

The regulator said Wednesday's decision was based on information provided by the administrators and it had also consulted the UK's Financial Services Authority.

The statement from the regulator indicated that there had been improvements in the company's underwriting model and "significant" strengthening of its pricing structure.

The company was prevented from writing new business in the UK after the regulator expressed concerns about the financial position of the company, particularly in relation to its solvency, and had the business placed in administration to protect Quinn's customers.

Most of the UK business is processed in Quinn's Fermanagh operation and the ban had put hundreds of jobs at risk.

Workers across Ireland protested over the decision. The company said the insurance business was losing 1.5m euros a day as a result of the suspension.

The Quinn Group last week withdrew its opposition to the appointment of permanent administrators to the insurer.

The regulator and the insurer said the move was in the best interests of 1.3 million policyholders.
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2010, 07:02:55 PM
While it's good news that there has been movement it's still not enough to bring any great hope. It's only opened up the market for provisional licence holders in the UK and not for the whole market. It's only a tiny % of what QI needs. But as I said at least it's movement and hopefully they'll widen it to include more segments in the next few days.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bensars on April 29, 2010, 10:37:01 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 29, 2010, 10:39:23 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

Not good news.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 29, 2010, 10:40:06 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

According to the local paper here the job losses will be spread between, Enniskillen, Cavan, Dublin and I believe England.  Not good news nonetheless.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 29, 2010, 10:44:58 AM
Heard on the radio that the administrator is recommending 800 job losses at Quinns. The employees are to be told in detail tomorrow.

Big blow for a lot of families

According to the local paper here the job losses will be spread between, Enniskillen, Cavan, Dublin and I believe England.  Not good news nonetheless.


According to the papers the job losses will be in the South.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 11:10:06 AM
I don't think so OM. There is chat that they expect the 800 between Cavan, Enniskillen, Navan and Manchester. So sad news alright for alot of people.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 29, 2010, 11:22:14 AM
how are the Laing O'Rourke negotiations going?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 11:33:38 AM
Althought the Laing O Rourke thing is in relation to Quinn Group and not insurance i don't think there is much in it as far as I've heard. I know they were interested in the Cement and I'd be surprised if SQ let that go. But again you just never know these days.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 29, 2010, 01:21:35 PM
Representatives of Quinn Insurance employees have told an Oireachtas Committee it is 'completely outrageous' that workers learned of possible redundancies at the company through the media.

The joint administrators of Quinn Insurance have drawn up plans to make around 800 staff redundant as part of a downsizing of the company.

Workers' representatives this morning told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Enterprise, Trade and Employment that they have a solution to the difficulties faced by Quinn Insurance.
They want the company to be allowed to resume all of its UK market activities, which they say is the only way of preventing a disastrous impact on the Irish economy.

The five members of the workers' action group told the committee that Quinn Insurance is losing 2,000 of its UK customers a day.

They added that the company is eager to restart all its UK business and is well equipped to do so.

The administrators of Quinn Insurance will brief staff on their plans tomorrow afternoon.

However, workers' representatives say they want the matter clarified today, adding that employees should not have to sit through another night to learn their fates.

Workers' representative Mona Bermingham said staff were extremely fearful for their futures.

She said: 'This is the first we've heard of it - we had been given no indication of numbers or locations.

'It is an utter disgrace and shows utter disrespect to employees that they should learn their fate through the media.

'There's a lot of worry, disillusionment, dejection - it's going to have a massive impact. This is not something we'll be accepting easily.'

The Committee is to ask the Financial Regulator to allow Quinn Insurance access to profitable sections of its business in Northern Ireland the UK.


800 staff represents about one third of the total number of people employed by the company.

Paul McCann and Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton have drawn up plans that involve redundancies ranging from 550 to more than 900. It is understood they will seek redundancies at the upper end of that range.

The restructuring relates primarily to Quinn Insurance's businesses in the UK, many of which have been unprofitable.

The insurer is currently being allowed to only partially re-enter the insurance market there.

However, most of the job losses will be in the Republic.

Much of the UK business is handled by staff at Quinn's offices in Dublin, Cavan and Navan. The centres at Enniskillen and Manchester will also be seriously affected.

The redundancies will be voluntary and will take place over a period of time.

While the details of the package to be offered to employees have not been revealed, it is understood workers will be offered more than the statutory redundancy.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 06:54:31 PM
Just getting news now that the UK private car market will be reopening. Great news if true whether or not it'll helps keep jobs is another matter.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 29, 2010, 10:10:19 PM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2010, 10:30:32 PM
Unfortunately things aren't good. They are saying that they've opened up the uk market. But what they aren't saying is that they've forced premiums up that much that there's no hope of selling any in the UK. So I'd imagine all jobs cuts will have to go ahead as I can't see them building up any sort of market share now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on April 29, 2010, 10:53:33 PM
It was always going to happen and anyone who thought otherwise was deluding themselves. I feel sorry for the people who will lose their jobs effectively they did nothing wrong and it is the people at the top who will invariably be looked after when the whole thing settles.

Chances of Quinn rebuilding their market share dwindled further each day they were in administration and in the insurance game if your name is sullied at all there are enough competitors out there who will feed off it and put you down. It's been a full month now and I think Quinn will not be able to come back from this. Very disappointing!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: scud on April 30, 2010, 12:19:07 AM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country

 ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 08:49:19 AM
What has changed between the administrator coming in and stopping UK trade, and it being permitted again yesterday?

The regulator obviously spotted a problem, or he wouldnt have come in, but its the methods which seem to me to have exacerbated the problem. Surely there would have been better, quieter ways to acheive whatever has been achieved in the last month?!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on April 30, 2010, 09:29:29 AM
About time! i know the regulator is just trying to do his job but a english man should not be deciding the future of irish families up and down the country

Good argument to help the Quinn workers ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 10:12:59 AM
Unfortunately things aren't good. They are saying that they've opened up the uk market. But what they aren't saying is that they've forced premiums up that much that there's no hope of selling any in the UK. So I'd imagine all jobs cuts will have to go ahead as I can't see them building up any sort of market share now.



What sort of % increases have been imposed ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 11:11:14 AM
I don't want to get into it too much on here OM but big enough to make it unrealistic that they'll build up any sort of market share again. And this is in a sector that they have admitted was profitable before all this. Just makes no sense to me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 11:17:03 AM
I don't want to get into it too much on here OM but big enough to make it unrealistic that they'll build up any sort of market share again. And this is in a sector that they have admitted was profitable before all this. Just makes no sense to me.
[/b]



It doesn't make a lot of sense to a lot of people.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orior on April 30, 2010, 12:15:07 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 01:01:30 PM
I think things are going to go from bad to worse shortly.  :(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 01:18:39 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.

f**k me, they're going under and you're trying to wrangle favours from them... :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orior on April 30, 2010, 01:43:27 PM
I got a letter last week saying that they could not renew my car tax. Would yesterdays news have changed that?

Emmm, maybe I should just phone them.

f**k me, they're going under and you're trying to wrangle favours from them... :P

Gulp! Yeah, I meant car insurance
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:25:43 PM
MASSIVE NEWS


Quinn decides to sell insurance business
  Friday, 30 April 2010 15:18
The Quinn Group says it has 'reluctantly' decided that it should sell its Quinn Insurance business.

The statement came as Quinn Insurance workers awaited news this afternoon of how many jobs are to go in the firm's offices around Ireland, the North and Britain.

There is speculation that up to 1,000 staff could lose their jobs over the coming months.

AdvertisementA Quinn Group statement said that it was 'greatly saddened' by the redundancies which are expected to be announced by the insurance company's joint administrators.

Quinn Group said that, in view of the funds needed to meet the requirements laid down by the Financial Regulator, the future of Quinn Insurance was probably best protected under new ownership.

'Accordingly we will be working closely with the joint administrators to see if this objective can be achieved in as short a time as possible with the hope that this will protect the maximum number of jobs,' the statement said.


Workers at Quinn Insurance will find out later today how many jobs are to go in the company's offices around Ireland and the UK.

The workers will be briefed at 3.30pm this afternoon. A press conference will be held near the company's head office in Cavan an hour later.

Administrator staff will begin briefing workers in all the Quinn Insurance offices in Cavan, Blanchardstown, Navan, Dublin city, Enniskillen, Derrylin, Manchester and London.

There are around 2,400 people working in Quinn Insurance. 1,400 of them are involved in the selling and servicing of policies in Northern Ireland and Britain.

By this evening, up to 1,000 workers may be facing voluntary redundancy.

While job losses were inevitable for sometime in Quinn Insurance, the workers want the Financial Regulator, Matthew Elderfield, to lift more of the ban on the company doing business in the crucial UK markets in order to help secure more jobs.

In a statement Kevin Lunny, operations director of the Quinn Group, said the company's insurance business had outperformed the market every year since 2005 in terms of profitability.

He said: 'We expected to be at least in line, if not ahead of, competitors for 2009.'

'The insurance business is expected to make a loss for 2009 in the UK market in line with competitors,' he added.

The Regulator has argued that unprofitability in the UK business has been one of the reasons why Quinn Insurance has been restricted from doing business in that market.

Speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, local TD and Minister for Agriculture Brendan Smyth said he understood the worry and concerns of employees.

However, Mr Smyth said the Government had nothing to do with the decision.

Taoiseach Brian Cowen has said the thoughts of everyone are with the Quinn workers at this time.

He went on to say that Quinn Insurance has a viable future.

Fine Gael's Enterprise Spokesman Leo Varadkar said he was hopeful that some of the expected job losses could be prevented if another company were to takeover Quinn Insurance and the business emerged from administration.

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Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:29:55 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:40:16 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 03:52:03 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on April 30, 2010, 04:05:09 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder who might buy them? Will they try and keep jobs in Enniskillen?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 04:17:39 PM
I think things are going to go from bad to worse shortly.  :(

Had heard rumours about this earlier. Gutted by the news to be honest. But in fairness I think SQ is right as there's been that much damage to QI that I don't think it could have recovered. The adminstrator has strangled the life out of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2010, 04:23:08 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

Yeah, that's true. I wonder who might buy them? Will they try and keep jobs in Enniskillen?


There'll be plenty who will want to buy, obviously at a price.


I'd say they'll keep a presence locally alright.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 04:50:05 PM
I wouldn't be so sure OM. If it's a another large insurance firm they might have the call centres abroad. Or if it's a UK one then they'll already have uk based offices. They definitely won't keep all the offices anyway and I'd imagine they would be quicker keeping the Q Building in Dublin than any of the other offices.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on April 30, 2010, 04:53:37 PM
Bad news. This will have major implications for the rest of the Quinn Group


I suppose it all depends on how much they get for the buisness.


But in a firesale, it will not be good.

By all accounts the insurance business was keeping the rest of the group afloat. It doesn't look good


But maybe by selling off the insurance business, he'll be able to straighten out the other parts of the group ??


Here's hoping anyway.

The other parts of the business were much more susceptible to the recession, esp the concrete packaging etc. The glass is mebbe the only one that can be straightened out? Thats that region fucked. Theres bound to have been better ways for this to have been handled.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2010, 05:21:51 PM
I'd fear for the group aswell to be honest. QI was the golden egg for SQ. Without it, the paying of depts will be alot harder. The only thing for the area itself is that alot of the groups activities will be tied to the area through the locations, like the cement factory etc. If the group was sold (And i hope to god it isn't) alot of the jobs should still be retained in that area. Or so you would hope. But no doubt there would be jobs cuts.

I know it's going to be a very nervous time for a lot of people now.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 02, 2010, 01:19:24 AM
Quinn Group before the financial regulator - Problems but making profit and creating Irish jobs.
After 900 jobs GONE - Thanks Matthew

Hopefully the pasport office is in full flow again because Fermanagh, Cavan, Monaghan, Letrim and Dublin will see some emigration very soon. No jobs no prospects especially in the boarder counties.

Pity the Dublin 4 brigaide and Mat have never visited the boarder areas they might realise how dependent the area is on Quinn Group.

Hopefully Matthew will get a redundancy package and f**ks of back to ENGLAND.

Michael Collins would be rolling in his grave
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 02, 2010, 08:36:27 AM
Have to say I agree with unitedireland although I realise my thinking is not considering the letter of the law and all the legalise stuff. I was brought up in Cavan in the 80's and I remember as a child heading north for the petrol on shitty pot holed roads to meet the smooth roads of the north as soon as you crossed the border. There was 1 factory in Cavan - Pauwels. Killeshandra has close McCormacs and fletchers mill, Killeshandra Co-Op was emplying half what it used to. The Celtic tiger came and Cavan seen no investment from the outside (nor did any of the other border counties except maybe Louth). We did have the promise of Terradyne setting up for 100's of jobs and the place was full of suited ministers bestowing this great gift upon us but that never happened. All that time anything that happened in Cavan was developed from within. Sean Quinn has a legendary status in Cavan, Fermanagh and the other border counties because he made jobs when no politician was to be seen. He made 100's and 100's of jobs. He started in cement and made a success of it. He built a huge Hotel in the middle of nowhere and everyone thought he was mad but he made a success out of that. He went into bottle making and made a success of that. Then insurance and then he did the whole country a favour by taking over Bupa when it decided to leave and leave the healthcare industry at the mercy of VHI. He's done insulation, pubs and others and made a success out of it and all the time creating jobs. He lives local to where he is from, he is an irish resident and pays his taxes, he has not farmed any jobs out even though many of them are tailor made for Indian call centers. Now clearly he made a mistake and took a very wreckless (in hindsight) punt on a Bank, put his company at risk and lost a massive amount of money. That is the good versus the bad. Taking a common sense look surely anyone can see the good surely outweighs the bad. Surely this means that something should be worked out with Quinn to sort this all out. We can give banks billions and billions and I suggest we get f**k all in return so surely Quinn could be helped out - after all he is committed and capable of paying it back in time. No. True to form our heroic leaders allow administrators to go in there, make an example out of the greatest job makers in the country, drive a steak into the heart of his business and destroy the lives of 900 people. What will happen now is that the group will get sold to another insurance company and those jobs left will be consolidated into that companies existing jobs. God knows where that might be but it could easily be in another country. The Quinn group will struggle and will probably let people go and with all the job losses in Quinn we will see all the other dependent businesses go to the wall. The politicans will hide behind  the law and true to form they will leave the people of the border counties to sort it out themselves as they have for 90 years. This country is full of  talentless wasters who owe lots and have not a cent left to their name and they get off scot free and a man and a company that did so much for this region get pulverised because they have some assets left. I'm sorry for folks but there is no justice or fairness in this no matter what the rules or the law says. Thanks a million Fine Fail and the Greens for looking after the border counties and I hope the electorate give ye back exactly what you deserve.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 02, 2010, 12:02:31 PM
Have to say I agree with unitedireland although I realise my thinking is not considering the letter of the law and all the legalise stuff. I was brought up in Cavan in the 80's and I remember as a child heading north for the petrol on shitty pot holed roads to meet the smooth roads of the north as soon as you crossed the border. There was 1 factory in Cavan - Pauwels. Killeshandra has close McCormacs and fletchers mill, Killeshandra Co-Op was emplying half what it used to. The Celtic tiger came and Cavan seen no investment from the outside (nor did any of the other border counties except maybe Louth). We did have the promise of Terradyne setting up for 100's of jobs and the place was full of suited ministers bestowing this great gift upon us but that never happened. All that time anything that happened in Cavan was developed from within. Sean Quinn has a legendary status in Cavan, Fermanagh and the other border counties because he made jobs when no politician was to be seen. He made 100's and 100's of jobs. He started in cement and made a success of it. He built a huge Hotel in the middle of nowhere and everyone thought he was mad but he made a success out of that. He went into bottle making and made a success of that. Then insurance and then he did the whole country a favour by taking over Bupa when it decided to leave and leave the healthcare industry at the mercy of VHI. He's done insulation, pubs and others and made a success out of it and all the time creating jobs. He lives local to where he is from, he is an irish resident and pays his taxes, he has not farmed any jobs out even though many of them are tailor made for Indian call centers. Now clearly he made a mistake and took a very wreckless (in hindsight) punt on a Bank, put his company at risk and lost a massive amount of money. That is the good versus the bad. Taking a common sense look surely anyone can see the good surely outweighs the bad. Surely this means that something should be worked out with Quinn to sort this all out. We can give banks billions and billions and I suggest we get f**k all in return so surely Quinn could be helped out - after all he is committed and capable of paying it back in time. No. True to form our heroic leaders allow administrators to go in there, make an example out of the greatest job makers in the country, drive a steak into the heart of his business and destroy the lives of 900 people. What will happen now is that the group will get sold to another insurance company and those jobs left will be consolidated into that companies existing jobs. God knows where that might be but it could easily be in another country. The Quinn group will struggle and will probably let people go and with all the job losses in Quinn we will see all the other dependent businesses go to the wall. The politicans will hide behind  the law and true to form they will leave the people of the border counties to sort it out themselves as they have for 90 years. This country is full of  talentless wasters who owe lots and have not a cent left to their name and they get off scot free and a man and a company that did so much for this region get pulverised because they have some assets left. I'm sorry for folks but there is no justice or fairness in this no matter what the rules or the law says. Thanks a million Fine Fail and the Greens for looking after the border counties and I hope the electorate give ye back exactly what you deserve.


Well said.

Although the regulator will say he was right in what he did, this government that bailed out all their mates look like letting Quinn go down the pan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 02, 2010, 01:16:22 PM
Well said Myles.

It stinks to the high heavens that rather than working with Quinn to sort things out, they decided to hang him and his workers out to dry. He has shown much more comitment to the economic future of Ireland than any of those f**kers who took that decision. He deserved better than that, and I hope in time they become truly ashamed of the way they've handled this and him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on May 02, 2010, 01:32:10 PM
Well put Myles. Maybe I'm being deluded here, but I would love to see the Quinn group ride this thing out and come back stronger than ever before in a few years time. It's just very annoying that very few politicans or people in the media have come out and supported Quinn over the last few weeks.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 02, 2010, 01:37:06 PM
I echo the sentiments of the other lads sine your post myles, you have more or less summed it up in a very pragmatic and striaghtforward fashion. This "issue" highlighted by the Financial Regulator of enough solvency to cover all the policy holders in the event of a d-day scenario could have and should have been dealt with in such a totally different fashion in difficult times when both the irish and british governments should be desperate to hang on to jobs - total and utter disgrace and disrespect to the businessman Sean Quinn and the people of Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan and everywhere else that does business with the Quinn Group, the knock on effect of the 900 people losing their jobs could be untold. How this has happened and the major Irish banks who were trading in arguably a much more wreckless fashion, then get bailed out by NAMA is sickening and laughable  ???  ::)  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on May 02, 2010, 05:00:36 PM
I echo the sentiments of the other lads sine your post myles, you have more or less summed it up in a very pragmatic and striaghtforward fashion. This "issue" highlighted by the Financial Regulator of enough solvency to cover all the policy holders in the event of a d-day scenario could have and should have been dealt with in such a totally different fashion in difficult times when both the irish and british governments should be desperate to hang on to jobs - total and utter disgrace and disrespect to the businessman Sean Quinn and the people of Cavan/Fermanagh/Leitrim/Monaghan and everywhere else that does business with the Quinn Group, the knock on effect of the 900 people losing their jobs could be untold. How this has happened and the major Irish banks who were trading in arguably a much more wreckless fashion, then get bailed out by NAMA is sickening and laughable  ???  ::)  ::)

Indeed, when Dell decided to up sticks we had a couple of muppets of ministers head of to talk to Michael Dell even though there was no a hope he was for turning. If Intel decided in the morning the same there would be a rush of Dublin and Kildare TD's to get millions of grants signed off. Just compare that to how Quinn is treated and also Michael O Leary's 500 jobs in Dublin airport. Seems to me these TD's and ministers put their own personality issues ahead of their duty to the electorate. It disgusts me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 02, 2010, 11:16:58 PM
I listened to the trade minister on today.


What he said was not very encouraging at all.

He just said he'd send round the Fas people on Tuesday to those who were being made redundant to see if they could help ! FFS !
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 05, 2010, 11:05:52 PM
Sean Quinn to stand down from board
 Wednesday, 5 May 2010 22:14
Sean Quinn has today announced that he and his wife Patricia have decided to stand down from the Board of Quinn Group Limited.

Mr Quinn said in a statement that his decision was based on his need to concentrate in the short term on Quinn family interests outside of Quinn Group Limited and in particular on the interaction of these interests with Anglo Irish Bank.

He also stated that he wanted to avoid any potential conflict of interest associated with the proposed sale of Quinn Insurance.

AdvertisementHe added 'After 37 years of sustained development Quinn Group Limited has a mature, professional and skilled executive as well as a very experienced and independent Board.

'The group is extremely well invested and is strongly positioned to meet all of the challenges ahead.

'The Group management and staff in all areas are second to none as has been demonstrated in recent times.

'For now I want to concentrate on Quinn family interests outside of the group and bring all outstanding matters to a satisfactory conclusion in that regard'.


Quinn staff to meet ministers

Meanwhile, staff representatives from Quinn Insurance are to hold further meetings with ministers Batt O'Keeffe and Brendan Smith next week as part of their campaign to limit the number of job losses in the company.

Speaking after a meeting today in Cavan, staff representatives said they had put a number of questions to Minister O'Keeffe for clarification.

They were also highly critical of the role of the Financial Regulator and his handling of Quinn Insurance.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maguire01 on May 05, 2010, 11:25:46 PM
I had my car insurance with Quinn and had to renew this week. My insurance last year was about £340. I rung up to renew this week after the ban was lifted. They quoted me almost £800! That's despit another year's no claims. As much as I would have liked to support them, rates like that don't give you much choice. I got cover elsewhere for £280. Not a hope they'll maintain any share operating like that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on May 13, 2010, 05:32:23 PM
Interesting.  Anybody hear anything about this:

http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/05/13/391429-family-bid-for-quinn-insurance-not-ruled-out/ (http://www.impartialreporter.com/news/roundup/articles/2010/05/13/391429-family-bid-for-quinn-insurance-not-ruled-out/)

Quote
Family bid for Quinn Insurance not ruled out
A CLOSE family member of Sean Quinn is planning to purchase the crisis-hit Quinn Insurance, The Impartial Reporter has learned.

It's understood the ambitious plan which, if successful, is the only way to keep the troubled firm in the Quinn family.

Sources say serious negotiations have been under way for a "considerable time" about a deal involving members of Sean Quinn's family and American investors.

It is believed several potential investors in the United States have been approached by representatives acting on behalf of the Quinn family regarding a takeover bid.

As speculation continued yesterday, Mr. Peter Quinn refused to rule out a family bid: "There isn't a move by the family at the minute but that's not to say there won't be any in the future."

Since Quinn Insurance was placed into permanent administration three weeks ago, around 46 multinational companies are believed to have come forward wanting a slice of the Quinn pie. But the family are keen to retain control of Quinn Insurance, we're told. In fact, sources say that keeping the firm in the family has always been the case and that the plan has always been to have the business back within six weeks of entering permanent administration.

Three weeks in, the clock is ticking and according to a source close to the Quinn family the stakes have never been higher -- buying back the business could mean "risking everything".

"I know representatives are actively seeking investors from New York but before a takeover could be granted, the prospective buyers would need to ensure the administrators that not only could they afford to take over the business but that the balance of the business was efficient. Clearly at the moment it is not efficient which is why it went into administration in the first place. The Irish Regulator's requirements are also becoming evermore rigorous. It's a hell of an attempt, I have to take my hat off to them. They certainly have guts but I guess you can only go bankrupt once. My main concern is the future of jobs. I think this sort of deal could put even more jobs at risk," he said.

Furthermore, The Impartial Reporter has also been told that Sean Quinn's resignation last week from the Quinn Group came about as a result of those negotiations.

Mr. Quinn and his wife Patricia stood down from the board of Quinn Group Limited last Wednesday evening to avoid any "potential conflict of interest" associated with the sale of Quinn Insurance -- and now we know why.

The businessman also said his decision was based on his need to concentrate in the short term on family interests outside of the Quinn Group, in particular on the interaction of those interests with the troubled Anglo Irish Bank.

In a statement, Mr. Quinn said: "After 37 years of sustained development Quinn Group Limited has a mature, professional and skilled executive as well as a very experienced and independent Board. The Group is extremely well invested and is strongly positioned to meet all of the challenges ahead. The Group management and staff in all areas are second to none as has been demonstrated in recent times. For now I want to concentrate on Quinn family interests outside of the Group and bring all outstanding matters to a satisfactory conclusion in that regard."

A spokesperson for Dublin administrators, Grant and Thornton, said yesterday: "The administrators are preparing a memorandum to go out to everyone and anyone who has expressed any interest in Quinn Insurance. Should the Quinn Group come to any decision about the sale of shares in Quinn Insurance Limited, the administrator would have to approve such a deal. It is possible that the Quinn Group may be going off to approach other people about their business. However, the administrator couldn't comment on anything like that. The memorandum will be sent out to the interested parties at the end of this month and that's when you may begin to see progress on the Quinn Limited side. The Quinn Group side is a completely different kettle of fish."

Responding to today's story, a Quinn spokesperson simply said: "The Group have no comment to make on this."

At the moment there is no price tag fixed to Quinn Insurance but it is thought to be "extremely high".

Enterprise Minister Arlene Foster, who along with Employment and Learning Minister, Sir Reg Empey will co-ordinate the Government's response to the situation at Quinn Insurance, says her Department are continually being made aware of any takeover proposals from prospective buyers and said a number of options were currently on the table.

The focus on finding a solution -- and quick -- she says, is her main priority.

The Minister met with the Irish Regulator in Dublin on Tuesday to discuss the crisis: "We had a very frank discussion about the options open to the Quinn Insurance," she said.

Last week, Mrs. Foster announced that Leslie Ross, who is originally from Enniskillen, will co-ordinate the activities of the Department of Enterprise, the Department for Employment and Learning (DEL), Invest Northern Ireland, InterTradeIreland and local councils in response to the problems facing Quinn Insurance.

Leslie Ross CB has extensive experience of economic development in Northern Ireland for nearly 30 years, having held a number of prominent posts within the industry. Following the creation of Invest Northern Ireland in April 2002 he was appointed Managing Director of its Business International group, a role which he held until his retirement from full time employment in 2005. He was awarded a CB in the Queen's New Year Honours List in 2006.

Mr. Ross was in Enniskillen yesterday to meet with Arlene Foster and staff at the Townhall, where he will be based for several weeks.

Speaking to The Impartial Reporter, Mr. Ross said he was ready to take on the challenge: "Yes, very much so. It's a job that needed to be started quickly. I will be looking, firstly, to acknowledge the importance of Quinn Insurance to the local economy and to reassure the work force that my team and I will be doing all that we can to secure the future of Quinn Insurance. We will be looking to see what we can do to help Quinn Insurance in its current state and to help those employees who will have to leave find alternative employment," he said.

Meanwhile on Monday, Independent councillor Gerry McHugh was thrown out of the Northern Ireland Assembly after criticising Stormont's handling of the problems at Quinn Insurance.

He was ruled out of order and proceedings were briefly suspended by Speaker William Hay after he kicked up a fuss following Assembly questions with Deputy Leader Martin McGuinness.

Speaking afterwards, Mr. McHugh said he felt Stormont had "let down" Quinn employees and "isn't doing enough".

And in a statement to this newspaper yesterday, Sinn Fein councillor Phil Flanagan described Mr. McHugh's outburst as "unproductive and childish".

"Perhaps, Mr. McHugh would be better served questioning his Fianna Fáil colleagues, particularly An Taoiseach, Brian Cowen, Brian Lenihan and Batte O'Keefe, to see what action they have taken to protect the jobs throughout the Quinn Group. This would be much more productive than criticising the Assembly. He is not trying to look after the interests of the workers of the Quinn Group, but merely trying to be seen to be doing something in the run up to the Assembly elections next year."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on May 18, 2010, 03:43:38 PM
Heads up for Spotlight tonight on BBC1 10:35pm looking at the Quinn situation
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 18, 2010, 03:46:36 PM
Heard about this last week. Just wondering what the chances of getting this over in Engerland? Will i be able to access the iplayer?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermPundit on May 18, 2010, 06:03:24 PM
Heard about this last week. Just wondering what the chances of getting this over in Engerland? Will i be able to access the iplayer?

Yep, you should be able to watch it on iplayer, it'll probably be tomorrow afternoon before it's available.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on May 18, 2010, 10:44:30 PM
Right so Little is definetly back.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 19, 2010, 12:13:37 AM
Poor enough programme revealing nothing new.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on May 19, 2010, 12:30:49 AM
Except Fermanagh's ridiculous training gear!!!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: A Quinn Martin Production on May 19, 2010, 09:26:07 AM
Poor enough programme revealing nothing new.

Rubbish..a re-hash of what everyone already knows except for the interview with that strange looking "friend" of SQ's.  PLus we learned that Chris Breen is carrying a bit of timber.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 20, 2010, 01:26:54 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 20, 2010, 02:02:59 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked

It's amazing the support industries that are needed to support the Quinn operations in Fermanagh etc  -

The programme showed the massive indirect employment that has been created as a result of Quinn's operations -


There was a creche in some town ( not sure which ) which emplyed 21 people. All the children in the creche were ( not literally ) Quinn children.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 26, 2010, 12:26:20 PM
900 apply for redundancy at Quinn
Page last updated at 10:51 GMT, Wednesday, 26 May 2010 11:51 UK
E-mail this to a friend Printable version  Quinn Insurance employs 600 people in County Fermanagh More than 900 workers at Quinn Insurance have applied for voluntary redundancy.

The company was put into administration by the High Court in Dublin in March.

Quinn Insurance is shedding 900 staff at locations on both sides of the border including Navan, Cavan and Dublin.

Two hundred of the jobs will go in Northern Ireland at Enniskillen and Derrylin.

It will be several weeks before the applicants will be told whether or not they will qualify.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 12:56:10 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00sj5bp/Spotlight_2010_2011_Quinn_Insurance/

fermanagh and cavan are fucked

Well, you know who to blame for the situation...
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 01:08:53 PM
matthew elderfield or sean quinn himself??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 01:39:23 PM
matthew elderfield or sean quinn himself??

Sean Quinn himself of course.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 01:42:05 PM
And would you not apportion any blame as to the way the regulator and administrators have handled things?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:04:08 PM
And would you not apportion any blame as to the way the regulator and administrators have handled things?

None at all. Quinn broke the law, took client funds and used them to cover gambling losses - twice.

The regulator played a blinder here and saved most, if not all, of the jobs and saw no policy defaults.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 02:10:42 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 02:22:21 PM
ok well I'm going to call BS on that.

The problem was around the insurance ratio of QD. He never moved clients funds, he had a insurance ratio of 118% (Average needed throughout europe is 100%), however Ireland is higher with 150%. Despite the fact that Quinn said he would work it up to 150% ( And he was always alot higher than VHS).
But then the regulator stepped in and closed the UK and NI business markets BEFORE the administrator moved in. By doing this the regulator had already prevented the administrators from viewing the full picture, ie it should have been the administrators making the decision on closing areas of the business.

Not only that but the regulator made these decisions without giving Quinns a chance of appeal and forced it through.

On top of that it took them a month to actually work out that the uk markets were profitable and re-open these ( Damage was done at this point). That was after they had decided they had enough information within a day to close them.

Quinn did take a gamble with Anglo but he's taken many a gamble that's worked out not only for him but for the government, the local communities etc. So their handling of the QD was shambolic and destroyed a company that was growing through the Uk and building new jobs within the Irish economy.

By all means SQ will take his portion of the blame on this, but it's not a black and white as you would make out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:23:15 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!

Eh? What is 'wrong' with what I said?

He got a record fine from the regulator last year and pulled the same stunt. He was on a yellow card and got his early bath
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 02:29:09 PM
ok well I'm going to call BS on that.

The problem was around the insurance ratio of QD. He never moved clients funds, he had a insurance ratio of 118% (Average needed throughout europe is 100%), however Ireland is higher with 150%. Despite the fact that Quinn said he would work it up to 150% ( And he was always alot higher than VHS).
But then the regulator stepped in and closed the UK and NI business markets BEFORE the administrator moved in. By doing this the regulator had already prevented the administrators from viewing the full picture, ie it should have been the administrators making the decision on closing areas of the business.

Rules is the rules and he was on a yellow card. He then broke the rules, and THE LAW, and the regualtor acted to protect policyholders as they felt the company was systemically broke.

Not only that but the regulator made these decisions without giving Quinns a chance of appeal and forced it through.

As his is legal right.

On top of that it took them a month to actually work out that the uk markets were profitable and re-open these ( Damage was done at this point). That was after they had decided they had enough information within a day to close them.

You imply that this was the first run in between the regualtor and Quinn. They didn't do this out of boredom.

Quinn did take a gamble with Anglo but he's taken many a gamble that's worked out not only for him but for the government, the local communities etc. So their handling of the QD was shambolic and destroyed a company that was growing through the Uk and building new jobs within the Irish economy.

So you want a return to the days of old where 'clout' trumps the law? His insurance companies were insolvent - even he accepted that. The regualtor had to act and with the press they had recently were always going to hammer the next financial institution that stepped out of line.

By all means SQ will take his portion of the blame on this, but it's not a black and white as you would make out.

A portion? Jesus wept.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:04:21 PM
wrong Ron, wrong again Ron, wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong Ron!!!  :P  ::)

good old del boy eh!

Eh? What is 'wrong' with what I said?

He got a record fine from the regulator last year and pulled the same stunt. He was on a yellow card and got his early bath

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 03:11:08 PM

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

1: Thats not how regulation works. In the insurance industry you can't say 'well I can't cover claims now, but give me 6 months'.

2: So you are arguing that the goverment were right to step in to protect your deposits but wrong to step in to protect somone elses health insurance?



One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man

Bull. New rules, or at least enforcement of them, for all, regardless of how chummy you are with FF.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 03:13:26 PM
Rules is the rules and he was on a yellow card. He then broke the rules, and THE LAW, and the regualtor acted to protect policyholders as they felt the company was systemically broke.


If the rules are the rules how come all insurance companies don't have to comply? The company was never systemically broke so I don't know were your getting that from. They had 118% of their ratios covered. Only slightly of what the reccommended ratio in Ireland.

As his is legal right.

Err no actually. The decision to impose a ban on all NI/UK business was fundamentally wrong, particularly
with regard to the manner in which it was implemented immediately prior to him going to the
High Court to request they place the firm in provisional administration.
What the Regulator should have done as correct & responsible procedure would have been to allow the Administrators, that he sought to appoint two hours later, to analyse the business and let them make an informed decision on the NI/UK market.
If after this review by the Administrators, it was felt warranted to remove QIL from trading in some
parts of the market or increase prices in some areas, then fine, do this after their review, but why
impose a ban on all lines, severely damage the reputation, & then reopen the business just a few
weeks later.

You imply that this was the first run in between the regualtor and Quinn. They didn't do this out of boredom.


No I didn't.

So you want a return to the days of old where 'clout' trumps the law? His insurance companies were insolvent - even he accepted that. The regualtor had to act and with the press they had recently were always going to hammer the next financial institution that stepped out of line.


No I wouldn't want a return to "clout trumps the law. But you make it sound like this was the only option open to the regulator. There was other ways of dealing with the insolvency ratios. There were ways were the regulator could have worked with QD and but measures in place to ensure QD gets up to full solvency ( And when i say that I mean for Ireland's 150% ratio, which is 50% higher than most other Euro countries) within a year or two. What I didn't expect was for the regulator to destroy a Irish company that was paying the Government nearly 100Million in taxes each year, giving 1000's of people employment, outpreforming larger UK insurance companies. Nor did I expect the Irish government to sit back and watch it happen either when it caused the loss of 900 jobs and up to 20,000 other jobs indirectly. There were plenty of other options open to the regulator as have been mentioned in the media. But funnily enough he choice the most drastic of all. Or as some more cynical people have viewed it the one option that would gather the regulator the highest profile before he swans back to the UK.

A portion? Jesus wept

You see this line shows me that you don't have a clue, If you think there was no other option and that no one else has any blame other than SQ.

(Apologies about the quoting still can't get the hang of it. )
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2010, 03:41:09 PM

dub, Quinn could have got himself out of this mess as Quinn Insurance was trading very profitably... Doomsday happened months ago when NAMA was invented. Were the banks trading wrecklessly for years before the crash happened (becasue of their endless lending policies) and if the government had not stepped in what would have happened to ALL my savings?

1: Thats not how regulation works. In the insurance industry you can't say 'well I can't cover claims now, but give me 6 months'.

2: So you are arguing that the goverment were right to step in to protect your deposits but wrong to step in to protect somone elses health insurance?



One rule for the City, another rule for the country my old man

Bull. New rules, or at least enforcement of them, for all, regardless of how chummy you are with FF.

I am still waiting for two insurance companies to sort out a claim I have had to deal with from August last year

well said sarsfields, i could not have put it better than that myself if i was here for a week. This whole mess is an utter disgrace which has been allowed to happen by numb nut politicians standing idly by  ::)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 04:38:00 PM
Dublinfella you sound like a civil servant 'they were only following the processes'.

The business was making 30 million a month, unless Ireland got hit by a nuclear bomb there was never any danger that the company would not have been able to pay out all policies (in which case there most likely would not need to be any payouts).

Common sense would have said that they looked at the figures and then said to Quinn you have 6 months to find X amount of money to get up to 150%.  If that means finding more investors so be it, with a company that was making £30million profit a month it would not have been hard to find investors.

By going in so heavy handed the regulators totally destroyed a very profitable business and thousands of peoples livelyhood.  This was the inevitable and obvious outcome from the approach the regulators took.  Would you pay out £500 for car insurance when a company might not exist in 3 months?

You could go into any business in ireland and destroy them by going in 1 day and saying we are closing you down for 2 weeks until we look at the figures some more instead of looking at the figures and then saying you need to do X, Y and Z to meet some regulation.  It is beyond belief that this was allowed to happen the way it did.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 04:49:15 PM
A civil servant I am not, but the point being WHY were they making this claimed 30m a month? By not playing by the rules. To the point where the company was not solvent. We don't need a nuclear bomb, we need a bout of swine flu for it all to have unravelled.

If you think they went in swinging because they had nothing better to do, you are on a different planet. Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model and they had major run ins with the regulator in both Ireland and Britain over serious systemic flaws. So serious that they invoked their right to remove the entire board and appoint a third party to try and save the company.

The rules have changed over the last few years. No-one is looking the other way anymore. That seems to be the bit you are refusing to accept.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 26, 2010, 05:15:08 PM
A civil servant I am not, but the point being WHY were they making this claimed 30m a month? By not playing by the rules. To the point where the company was not solvent. We don't need a nuclear bomb, we need a bout of swine flu for it all to have unravelled.

If you think they went in swinging because they had nothing better to do, you are on a different planet. Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model and they had major run ins with the regulator in both Ireland and Britain over serious systemic flaws. So serious that they invoked their right to remove the entire board and appoint a third party to try and save the company.

The rules have changed over the last few years. No-one is looking the other way anymore. That seems to be the bit you are refusing to accept.

Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

We've already had a bout of swine flu and no businesses went under to my knowledge because of it!

What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 26, 2010, 05:22:47 PM

Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

Both.



We've already had a bout of swine flu and no businesses went under to my knowledge because of it!

We aren't taking about 'business'. We are talking about insolvent health insurers.

What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

They? They, after repeated warnings (day 1 my arse) removed the board of a company that at best were cooking the books and at worst were involved in fraud.

Heroin dealers make money and employ people in improverished rural areas. But the law is still being broken and the state have to react.

Sean Quinn, and Sean Quinn alone created this mess with the greed he showed trying to make billions on risky Anglo derivitiaves and then using company (and client) money to cover his losses. You can't blame the regulator for that fundamental basis to his troubles.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 26, 2010, 06:02:01 PM
Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

I guess the new regulator may have gone hard enough to make an example but any administration work is to save them.


What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

A few things:

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 06:18:05 PM
We aren't taking about 'business'. We are talking about insolvent health insurers.

Well would they not have looked closer to home for that then. QD had a hell of a lot better solvency than VHI. So I'll be expecting the same action there then? No? Why not? Or why have they extended the deadline for solvency to 2012 for VHI?

The regulator was not trying to save QD. The regulator was making a name for himself. And he did that. In fact had the Government known excately what the regulator was planning and the outcome they wouldn't have have allowed the guns blazing, taking no prisoners approach.

They? They, after repeated warnings (day 1 my arse) removed the board of a company that at best were cooking the books and at worst were involved in fraud.


Fraud? Then surely the Guards would have turned up something on that when they investigated? Or did they decide to hide that? Or maybe the third option that your talking crap?

There was issues with insolvency that had been declared in the accounts since 2005. But don't let that get in the way of you twisting things.


Heroin dealers make money and employ people in improverished rural areas. But the law is still being broken and the state have to react.

Sean Quinn, and Sean Quinn alone created this mess with the greed he showed trying to make billions on risky Anglo derivitiaves and then using company (and client) money to cover his losses. You can't blame the regulator for that fundamental basis to his troubles.


You see here we are again your saying SQ caused this all himself. But I've listed a load of things that weren't related to SQ about how it was handled that puts fault at the Regulator. Which is going back to your orginal point that the whole mess can't just be laid at SQ's feet.

Can you show were SQ used client money to hide the debt or a link to it?

I'm not even going to comment on the herion dealer comment.


Also one final things

Everyone in the insurance industry had heard the stories about their business model

Could you just let me know what problems these are? I'm hoping their not the problems that competitors have highlighted in response to QD's growth?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2010, 06:32:01 PM
Did they try to save them or did they make an example out of them?

I guess the new regulator may have gone hard enough to make an example but any administration work is to save them.


What you don't seem to have a problem with is that they put thousands and thousands of people in a rural area out of work and onto the dole when they were working in a profitable business.  By all means fine the company if they are not following all the rules until they do comply or even force them to sell part of business, but not come in 1 day and shut the gates, that should be the last option they should be going for.

A few things:

  • If you start bending the rules even for something honourable and altruistic as saving jobs in a rural area, you are still bending the rules.  It starts with that and goes on to breaking the rules as has happened in the past.   And the reasons get less and less honourable and altruistic each time.[/li]

    • Remember "Day 1" wasn't this May, it was October 2008 when Quinn Life and Quinn himself were first fined by the previous regulator.
    • "They" have not shut the gates, they have trimmed the company to something sustainable that may just prevent the gates being closed in the long run
    • It's fine for a business to turn a profit but some of that profit needs to be ploughed back in, especially in an insurance company with regulated solvency requirements.  If that profit is being diverted to cover costs/debts/losses elsewhere then it is irelevant to the discussion.
Jim sorry but I disagree with that bit in bold. They are already bending the rules for VHI by extending their deadline to 2012.

Why was this not offered to QD? And lets be honest QD is doing alot more for the irish economy than VHI. VHI were also insolveny in 2008 and they weren't fined. Yet QD were.

Also the profits to the insurance company can be put anywere as long as it's not threatening the solvency ratios. And lets remember QD's solvency ratios were well over the EU mimium requirements of 100%. (They had 118%) However were they failed was getting up to the ratio set by the regulator of 150% But they were on course to meet this before the end of 2010 had the regulator given them a chance.

And lets look back now. Which would have been the greater evil work with QD to ensure solvency within the year? Or to go in all guns blazing and destroy the rep of an thriving Irish insurance company.

As for the not shutting the doors on the business. Again I'll disagree. They have enforced unreasonable price increases on QD that put them at up to 300% higher than other insurance companies premiums. This despite the fact that QD have lower costs than most insurance companies because of their fast track system.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 11:26:07 AM
SS

The new regulator has clearly spelled out that different risks will be treated differently. VHI don't have the previous regulatory failings and fines QD do. So the situation is different and is treated differently.

Your entire argument seems to be that because Quinn provides employment he should be left alone to run his company as he personally sees fit. Well as Jim Murphy put it that isn't acceptible anymore post Anglo. The country has changed and the expectation is now there that the regulator do his bloody job and deal with companies that are at it. And QD were most certainly at it.

You fundamentally don't seem to get the fact that the 'profits' QD were making were inflated by the fact they weren't playing it straight. If you can't get your head around that there isn't much point talking to you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 11:52:26 AM
SS

The new regulator has clearly spelled out that different risks will be treated differently. VHI don't have the previous regulatory failings and fines QD do. So the situation is different and is treated differently.

Your entire argument seems to be that because Quinn provides employment he should be left alone to run his company as he personally sees fit. Well as Jim Murphy put it that isn't acceptible anymore post Anglo. The country has changed and the expectation is now there that the regulator do his bloody job and deal with companies that are at it. And QD were most certainly at it.

You fundamentally don't seem to get the fact that the 'profits' QD were making were inflated by the fact they weren't playing it straight. If you can't get your head around that there isn't much point talking to you.

VHI had the same failings as QD with regards to Solvency. And that is the issue that placed QD into Admin. So your wrong about the situation being different. It's the same and what's more QD had alot better solvency ratio that VHI. And QD were on plan to be meeting the excessive 150% rate by the end of 2010 but weren't given the opportunity. VHI have been given deadlines that they have progressively failed to meet and have had these extended.

A large part of my arguement is based around the good that QD and QG has done for the Irish economy alright. I don't deny that. And he was already in the process of increasing his ratio so given time would have brought it up to the required 150%. Had the regulator worked with him and allowed him the time VHI was given despite their lack of increase in solvency and indeed them needed a cash injection in 2008 from the state then QD would have been able to meet this. In fact plans were given to the Regulator explaining how they would meet the 150%. But he decided to ignore these and go for the high profile guns blazing approach.

You seem to think that the regulator had no option but to do what he did. When in fact he did. He had options that were being provided to VHI.

Can you tell me how Quinns Direct profits were inflated by not playing it straight? I fail to get my head around the fact that you keep going round in circles and haven't taken on board anything I've mentioned in the last few posts so maybe your right there's little point in talking to you.

One final question Why has VHI been given til 2012 to get their solveny up despite their failing over the last few years whenQD weren't offered this? Despite the fact QD were making the better inroads to the 150% ratio?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:04:58 PM

VHI had the same failings as QD with regards to Solvency. And that is the issue that placed QD into Admin. So your wrong about the situation being different. It's the same and what's more QD had alot better solvency ratio that VHI. And QD were on plan to be meeting the excessive 150% rate by the end of 2010 but weren't given the opportunity. VHI have been given deadlines that they have progressively failed to meet and have had these extended.

But you are answering your own question. VHI have an arrangement in relation to increasing their solvency and are sticking to it. QD have one and didn't.

The rights and wrongs of why the solvency ratios are different is somewhat irrelevant. QD broke their agreement on sovencly and VHI didn't.


A large part of my arguement is based around the good that QD and QG has done for the Irish economy alright. I don't deny that. And he was already in the process of increasing his ratio so given time would have brought it up to the required 150%. Had the regulator worked with him and allowed him the time VHI was given despite their lack of increase in solvency and indeed them needed a cash injection in 2008 from the state then QD would have been able to meet this. In fact plans were given to the Regulator explaining how they would meet the 150%. But he decided to ignore these and go for the high profile guns blazing approach.

But the regualtor had worked with QD (and I note you say him... very telling) and it involved a record fine and a yellow card. You are falsly asserting that this is the first interaction beween the FR and QD on this matter, not the cumulation of a couple of years worth of warnings.

The issue is QD writing an intercompany loan to cover gambling debts with ringfenced solvency money and when the FR found out they reacted. Any side arrangements over solvency that were went out the window when that happened.


You seem to think that the regulator had no option but to do what he did. When in fact he did. He had options that were being provided to VHI.

But VHI didn't breach the rules and stuck to their arrangement. You can't compare the two.

Can you tell me how Quinns Direct profits were inflated by not playing it straight? I fail to get my head around the fact that you keep going round in circles and haven't taken on board anything I've mentioned in the last few posts so maybe your right there's little point in talking to you.

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

One final question Why has VHI been given til 2012 to get their solveny up despite their failing over the last few years whenQD weren't offered this? Despite the fact QD were making the better inroads to the 150% ratio?

Irrelevent. The issue is that QD broke the law by using solvency funds to plug losses in other Quinn companies - after an explicit warning not to do so again.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:23:51 PM
But you are answering your own question. VHI have an arrangement in relation to increasing their solvency and are sticking to it. QD have one and didn't.

The rights and wrongs of why the solvency ratios are different is somewhat irrelevant. QD broke their agreement on sovencly and VHI didn't


Are you serious??? Did you not read my post above? QD had already sent plans into the regulator explaining how they were planning to meet the ratio by the end of 2010.

VHI have been given plans and have constantly broke these. Resulting in the deadline being pushed back on a number of occasions. The last one being 2012. And what's more QD had a better ratio than VHI.

But the regualtor had worked with QD (and I note you say him... very telling) and it involved a record fine and a yellow card. You are falsly asserting that this is the first interaction beween the FR and QD on this matter, not the cumulation of a couple of years worth of warnings.

The issue is QD writing an intercompany loan to cover gambling debts with ringfenced solvency money and when the FR found out they reacted. Any side arrangements over solvency that were went out the window when that happened.


very telling is it??  :D :D
The record fine was disputed at the time by QD as being excessive given the fact there was never a risk to policyholders, as admitted after by the regulator.


But VHI didn't breach the rules and stuck to their arrangement. You can't compare the two.


Seriously are you not following this? VHI broke the rules by not meeting the solvency deadline that they were given by the regulator. However these rules were relaxed in their case to allow more time to reach these deadlines

so i think it's fair enough to compare the two cases.

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

Can you send me a link on this? Have to say first I've heard of this?

[Irrelevent. The issue is that QD broke the law by using solvency funds to plug losses in other Quinn companies - after an explicit warning not to do so again. /sub]

Not irrelevant.  What you seem to be forgetting is that VHI are breaking the law also by not meeting the requirement set by the requlator as were QD. So again could you answer why VHI were allowed time to meet solvency and QD weren't?

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:26:13 PM
And by the way DF i'm not saying there wasn't alot of fault at QD and SQ's feet in this, in case anyone things I am. But what I don't accept is that they are soley to blame to how it was dealt with which is what you were claiming. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 12:28:19 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:34:00 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:34:57 PM

Are you serious??? Did you not read my post above? QD had already sent plans into the regulator explaining how they were planning to meet the ratio by the end of 2010.

And then promptly broke the plans by fecking €400m of solvency funds for the rest of the company. THAT is the problem.

VHI have been given plans and have constantly broke these. Resulting in the deadline being pushed back on a number of occasions. The last one being 2012. And what's more QD had a better ratio than VHI.

But they were up front with the FR and never tried to hide issues from them. Thats key.

very telling is it??  :D :D
The record fine was disputed at the time by QD as being excessive given the fact there was never a risk to policyholders, as admitted after by the regulator.

Source?

Seriously are you not following this? VHI broke the rules by not meeting the solvency deadline that they were given by the regulator. However these rules were relaxed in their case to allow more time to reach these deadlines

so i think it's fair enough to compare the two cases.

If the VHI took client money and used it to stem their chairmans gambling losses, then yes, there would be a comparison. When that happens, come back to me.

Can you send me a link on this? Have to say first I've heard of this?

Which bit?
Not irrelevant.  What you seem to be forgetting is that VHI are breaking the law also by not meeting the requirement set by the requlator as were QD. So again could you answer why VHI were allowed time to meet solvency and QD weren't?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:36:46 PM

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

Its not that simple VHI lost a lot of profitible customers to BUPA and have struggled with the risk equalisation. They have been given time to sort it all out.

Quinn hid illegal transactions from the regulator.

Why are we comparing the two issues?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 12:37:44 PM
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/vhi-gets-two-more-years-to-build-up-reserves-2184763.html


HEALTH insurer VHI was given an advantage over its competitors last night when it was granted another two years to build up its financial reserves.

Health Minister Mary Harney said the state-owned company was to be given until the beginning of 2012 to come up with sufficient reserves to meet its solvency requirements.

The revelation comes in the wake of more than 900 job losses at rival insurer, Quinn Insurance, as part of a restructuring plan to address the company's insolvency issues.

Ms Harney revealed she was again postponing the date for the VHI to meet requirements.

The postponement is the latest in a long line of postponements since 1999, and enables the VHI to continue to benefit from a derogation, first granted in 1973, from the full rigours of regulation.



That's 1999 not 2009.  VHI get given more time and QD get the book thrown at them.

this should cause outrage and QD should be taking legal action against the government on this ruling

http://www.sbpost.ie/newsfeatures/boardroom-unhealthy-financial-truths-and-the-vhi-issue-49402.html   ???  ::)

VHI now has until January 2012 to meet the full capitalisation requirements which would be needed to bring it under the umbrella of the Financial Regulator

As reported here last week, one option under discussion is to inject between €60 million and €100 million into VHI in the short term

was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 12:49:38 PM
The sourse I want is in relation to

They didn't pay out on claims in time and money that other insurers had to keep as collateral was invested or recorded as profit.

And the sourse you want with regards to the Regulator saying there was no risk to policy holders is

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7689642.stm

Quinn insurance firm in huge fine 
 
Mr Quinn said he accepted he had made mistakes
A company owned by one of Ireland's richest businessmen has been fined a record 3.25m euro by the Republic of Ireland's financial watchdog.

County Fermanagh businessman Sean Quinn has stepped down as chairman of Quinn Insurance following an investigation.

The Financial Regulator said it had "reasonable cause" to suspect breaches of regulatory requirements.

Personally fining Mr Quinn 200,000 euro, it said the firm had fully co-operated and the matter was now closed.

In a statement, the Financial Regulator said the suspected breaches related to contraventions by Quinn Insurance of "obligations under the Insurance Acts and Regulations, including failure to notify the Financial Regulator prior to providing loans to related companies".

 
It added that policyholders at the firm had not been affected.

In a statement, Sean Quinn said the company "had made loans to a related company which amounted to €288m in May 2008 when the accounts were finalised.

"These loans breached insurance regulations and as a result of this the Financial Regulator has sanctioned Quinn Insurance and myself. I accept complete responsibility for this breach of regulation.

"While I accept that I made mistakes, I feel that the levels of fines do not reflect the fact that there was no risk to policyholders or the taxpayer but are a result of the pressures existing in the current environment. However, we will pay the fines and move on."

Mr Quinn said he would continue as chairman of Quinn Group.

Last year, the Quinn Group made profits of 433m euros - an increase of nearly a third on 2006. It also bought the health insurer BUPA Ireland.

Mr Quinn and his wife and children own the companies outright and are believed to have amassed a personal fortune of nearly 4bn euro.

The Quinn Group employs more than 5,000 people throughout the world and have recently expanded into India and Russia.

Mr Quinn began in business in 1973 at a small gravel pit on the family farm in Derrylin, County Fermanagh.

 



You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.

Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:51:23 PM


was the option of the government injecting cash into QD discussed but the government said at the time that they were not allow to do it because of European law.

Does Europe have a different law for QD than it does for VHI

I would assume so because VHI is the state owned former monoply and it was the trade off for risk equalisation.

QD is a private concern that entered the market and took the younger, profitable customers causing the solvency/cashflow issues for VHI. QD's solvency issues were simply because they didn't want to 'leave' money there that could be put to work elsewhere. Like throwing down the jacks chasing Anglo CFDs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 12:54:33 PM

You go on about VHI losing customers to BUPA and getting time to sort it out? Why? Why do they get time to sort out their solvency ratios when QD didn't? Why do they get the deadline extended and extended with no action against them apart from cash injections provided by the state.

Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.

You keep going on about QD using profiits to finance other companies. There's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't breach the solvency ratio. It's the solvency issue that put QD into admin. Are you really not following this? VHI have worse solvency than QD yet are being given time to sort it out.


But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.
Also QG weren't moving money. They were using QD assets as guarattees against other QG companies. QD's point is that these would never have been called in by QG. (Breaking the law yes, but not threatening QD policy holders)

So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 12:59:31 PM
no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses  :-\
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:02:42 PM
Because the solvency issues in VHI were as a result of deragulation and the risk equalisation policy. QD's issues were a company policy - they had the money.


It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.

But if the profits are actually supposed to be held for solvency, it is a problem.


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.


So you admit they broke the law, but object to the state pulling them on it?

Bizarre.


I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

Did you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:04:30 PM
no objection on the state pulling them on it, they were given a record fine and accepted this but this should have been the end of it not run a hugely profitable IRISH owned company into the ground because it was making a mockery of all state-owned or semi-state-owned run businesses  :-\

Get real. If the state wanted to protect VHI they would have never opened the market. Thats at least your third conspiracy on this so far.

This is about the misuse of solvency funds. Simple as that. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:07:08 PM

It doesn't matter. VHI were given deadlines and warnings about what would happen if they didn't make the deadlines. They when they failed to meet that deadline they were given another one and the warnings were shown to be BS.


I completely agree. It's called a solvency problem. One that VHI had aswell.

Different problem, different context, different response.


I never argued that they didn't break the law. my argument with you was with regards to you thinking that the regulator had no other option and that it was all SQ's fault. I've never said that QD were blameless in this, far from it. But it could and should have been dealt with differently. That fault is with the Regulator, Administrator and the Irish Government. QD weren't that far of solvency that it was actually causing a risk. In most other countries he would have been over solvency by 18%. and was on line to get up to the actual rate within the year.

So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?

Did you get any joy with that link because I actually think it's BS?

Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:14:59 PM
You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

SQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

The FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Farcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:19:30 PM
Different problem, different context, different response.


Ok we're not going to agree on this as I believe same problem, different response.

So what are you arguing. Another fine and wait until the risk was critical to act?


If needs be. It would kinda be like another deadline passed for VHI if you like. The risk was never critical, as pointed out it would have passed in most EU countries and was on the rise. Unlike VHI. whatever was better than the alternative wjhich is the mess they've created now. Even putting in Administrators before the cutting of of markets ( As should have been done by the regulator) and allowing them to see were the problems are. There were a few options opened but again he took the drastic step that made sure it was noticed across the water.


Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?

Yes you see I think your a liar on this one. If anything QD are renown for their settling of claims quickly. So I actually think you've pulled this out of your ass, hoping it wouldn't be noticed, unless you can give me a link that might back that up?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:19:53 PM
You keep rattling on about solvency funds when you have been told repeatedly that they were within EU guidelines and would have been ahead of VHI without breaking any rules by the end of this year.

The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

SQ and SQ Group made mistakes, huge mistakes, these were dealt with and accepted. €3.25m into the coffers of the government for misuse of company funds. In 2007, Quinn Group made profits of €433m

So what? We are talking about the insurance arm.

The FReg then decided to go in full smack with the size 12's without any objection from the government as the politicians stood idly by when there could have been countless options available to deal with this SOLVENCY issue in so many other ways.

Its not a solvency issue. Its a fraud issue.

Farcical. I'm getting bored of this debate. If it was in Dublin, you'd be up in arms not doubt.

No, I have no time for that sort of parochial gombeenism. the law is the law regardless of what local idiots Quinn got out to protest on his behalf with a view to getting a pass for himself.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
anyone with an ounce of common sense would know that this should have been dealt with in a totally different manner and could have meant the business could have been whipped back in to line without jeoaprdising thousands of jobs.

why are you so anti-QI? If they decided to loan some money from one part of the company to another as it was there, thats hardly the fraud crime of the century???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:28:17 PM
The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

Wrong again. The issues that the regulator had were in response to the guarantees that had been declared in the accounts of QD back to 2005 but just hadn't been picked up by the regulator. Now QD can have no issues with the fact that they were picked up but they weren't trying to hide them. These were in relation to QD's assets (Buildings etc) being used as guarantees by QG. By law an insurance company can't use any assests against other companies. Therefore without these the solvency ratio dropped. But QD were unaware of this (Prob going back to an insurance company being run by a business man). but all this was declared in the accounts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 01:30:26 PM
There is no point arguing with you Dublinfella.  The government and the regulators let QD go to the wall and put thousands of people directly or indirectly out of work.  The company was making huge profit and had plenty of money to cover all claims (more than VHI and more than most insurance companies in the EU).  The government have been letting VHI break the regulations for 11 years and are giving them another 2 years (which will probably get expended again) to get up to the recommended level.  'VHI are having problems because BUPA took their customers' so what, if I owned a fruit and vegetable shop and went to the bank manager and said I was having solvency problems because someone up the road opened a better one do you think he would have much sympathy for me?  If there is 1 rule for the goose then there should be the same for the gander.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 27, 2010, 01:32:44 PM

Link to what? That QD delay as long as possible paying claims or that they were moving money around illegally?

You said Quinn delay paying claims as long as possible, thus putting them in an advantage against other insurance firms, because they dont have to hold the same levels of money. For starters that doesnt follow logic: the same money will still have to go out, just a little later, so the only point where you may have higher levels of cash would be for the first few months of such a policy being implemented. But anyway - explain where your evidence for any of that is.

Looks to me like the government saw the chance to screw a competitor of their own insurance company, and took it. Corrupt scumbags.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:33:44 PM
The issue is the removal of solvency under the table and you know it.

Wrong again. The issues that the regulator had were in response to the guarantees that had been declared in the accounts of QD back to 2005 but just hadn't been picked up by the regulator. Now QD can have no issues with the fact that they were picked up but they weren't trying to hide them. These were in relation to QD's assets (Buildings etc) being used as guarantees by QG. By law an insurance company can't use any assests against other companies. Therefore without these the solvency ratio dropped. But QD were unaware of this (Prob going back to an insurance company being run by a business man). but all this was declared in the accounts.

Get. Up. The. Yard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:35:16 PM


Looks to me like the government saw the chance to screw a competitor of their own insurance company, and took it. Corrupt scumbags.

This despite them neither knowing about it or having any power to order it? If anything they wanted to stop it as he is quids in with FF.

If they wanted to protect VHI they would have never allowed competition
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:35:27 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:36:57 PM
There is no point arguing with you Dublinfella.  The government and the regulators let QD go to the wall and put thousands of people directly or indirectly out of work.  The company was making huge profit and had plenty of money to cover all claims (more than VHI and more than most insurance companies in the EU).  The government have been letting VHI break the regulations for 11 years and are giving them another 2 years (which will probably get expended again) to get up to the recommended level.  'VHI are having problems because BUPA took their customers' so what, if I owned a fruit and vegetable shop and went to the bank manager and said I was having solvency problems because someone up the road opened a better one do you think he would have much sympathy for me?  If there is 1 rule for the goose then there should be the same for the gander.

QD weren't huckled because of solvency. They were lagged for using these funds for other purposes which SS acknowledges is illegal.

Comparisons wth VHI and the risk equalisation policy are fundamentally wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 01:37:48 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:42:37 PM
No one is arguing that there wasn't laws broke here. The argument is that you believe the regulator acted in the best way. I and many others disagree. Not least with how he started the admin process.

But comparisons between VHI and QD are viable. If solvency wasn't such an issue for VHI why bother putting deadlines on it and saying they would have to take action if these weren't met. As a Insurance company they are still under the regulations of the FR. And action should be taken against them if they couldn't meet these regulations. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 01:46:55 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

Sorry I going to call you a liar on this unless you can provide a wee bit of proof. But then this wouldn't be the first time you've came on this board spouting sh*te.

Also cash movement isn't accurate. It was issuing of guarantees that involved QD assets. No money moved.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Maiden1 on May 27, 2010, 01:56:26 PM
The same regulators could go into VHI next week and see that they have been given 11 years to sort out there issues with solvency levels etc. and say tough sh*t the rules are the rules, you've been given enough time to sort the problems out, no more excuses, stop selling policies until you get it sorted out.  By the sound of it you'd be first on here saying they got what they deserve but they have used common sense in this case and said we will work with you, no one is complaining that they are doing this.  If they had the same approach with QD then there never would have been a problem of the scale there is now.

QD taking a long time to pay out claims is a complete red herring.  All insurance companies try to wait as long as possibly to pay out any claim of more than a few hundred pounds, or avoid paying out at all if possible e.g.  someone claims for whip lash in a car crash, they will be straight on to your doctor for your medical files to see if you ever had a twinge in the past.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyronefan on May 27, 2010, 01:57:28 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

have had 2 substantial claims with QD in the past year and was paid within weeks with very little hassle.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 02:02:44 PM
ok, I think we'll conclude that dublinfella is a WUM that is full of sh1te - all agreed say aye!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 02:08:59 PM
Any joy on that link DF. Or is this another one of your lies?

Link to what? QD are well known for being difficult to get claims out of and you agree with me on the cash movement.

have had 2 substantial claims with QD in the past year and was paid within weeks with very little hassle.

It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 02:35:44 PM


It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.

It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 27, 2010, 02:47:59 PM
Ask anyone who has any knowledge of the insurance industry. Its how they were able to keep costs down with legal fees, etc.

And sure if what some lad says on a discussion board passes for evidence, why dont you just start quoting yourself? Tool.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 03:44:25 PM


It's the one thing that QD are renown for. They always worked on getting claims finalised as quickly as possible. So i think DF picked the wrong lie this time.

It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 :D

are you for real?

How about something from someone with a bit of knowledge of an insurance industry? Seriously ask any Solicitor, other insurance company and they'll be able to tell you that that QD settle much much faster than other insurance companies.
 
Of course you'll get individual people who won't like how their claim has been settled. You'll be able to do that against any insurance company. But you were trying to make it look like QD are notorious for stalling on claims when in fact the opposite is true.

Just admit it you made that little lie up and it's came back to bite you.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 27, 2010, 03:49:56 PM
Is this gonna turn into the under card of the Nally Stand v ard mhacha abu title challenge bout?  ;)  :D

You lied, no I didn't, prove, it, how dare you call me I liar!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 03:52:26 PM
It is the one thing they are not reknowned for. At one point they had a policy of rejecting ALL claims.

http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&source=hp&q=quinn+direct+claims+delay&meta=&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

 :D

are you for real?

How about something from someone with a bit of knowledge of an insurance industry? Seriously ask any Solicitor, other insurance company and they'll be able to tell you that that QD settle much much faster than other insurance companies.
 
Of course you'll get individual people who won't like how their claim has been settled. You'll be able to do that against any insurance company. But you were trying to make it look like QD are notorious for stalling on claims when in fact the opposite is true.

Just admit it you made that little lie up and it's came back to bite you.
[/quote]

I have plenty of professional knowledge of the insurance industry and know a couple of people who used to work in Quinn. They are notorious for the delay in their payouts, and you jumping up and down won't change what the majority of posters here know anecdotally at least.

Are you from Fermanagh?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 04:04:09 PM
Nope not from Fermanagh. not that that's got much to do with anything.

But seriously your obvioulsy haven't a clue about the insurance industry if you think QD delay on payments. Your making a  bit of a fool of yourself. QD are the only company that have a fast track system you plum!! They were the ones that brought cost cutting measures in by acting quickly on claims. Anyone in the insurance business will tell you that. Therefore I'll have to conclude that you are indeed telling porkies again on this board. Getting to be a bit of a habit with you isn't it.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 27, 2010, 04:16:59 PM
Nope not from Fermanagh. not that that's got much to do with anything.

But seriously your obvioulsy haven't a clue about the insurance industry if you think QD delay on payments. Your making a  bit of a fool of yourself. QD are the only company that have a fast track system you plum!! They were the ones that brought cost cutting measures in by acting quickly on claims. Anyone in the insurance business will tell you that. Therefore I'll have to conclude that you are indeed telling porkies again on this board. Getting to be a bit of a habit with you isn't it.

Well I do have 'a clue' from a professional capacity and know a number of people with direct involvement with the company, and their reputation is very poor when it comes to claims.

We are going in circles, and to be fair, you argued a good game until you resorted to personal insults.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2010, 04:24:14 PM
Ok the plum was a bit unfair and I'll happily apologise for that. It's just I have to assume you either don't know your facts about QD and the industry and their settling of claims or else you do and your lying.

Anyone with any knowledge of the Irish insurance system know about Quinns fast track system and how they are the quickest at settling claims. In fact if anything the complaint against then is that they settle too quickly.

Therefore to say they delay on claims looks to me that you were just throwing mud and have been called up on it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: DickyRock on May 27, 2010, 07:32:27 PM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 10:38:17 AM
I see VHI are now up for sale. And the first thing they are going to do is give it a cash injection so that it can be regulated.

God isn't it awful fortunate that one of it's competitors took a bad hit a few months ago. That should help the price of it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 11:53:49 AM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company

I think thats a red herring. They were on a yellow card and did the exact same thing and got a red. Its that simple. The rest is just idle conjecture.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 28, 2010, 11:59:38 AM
Not wanting to create another argument but to in my thinking it didn't matter what the solvency ratio was as the amount of loans from other parts of the Quinn group secured on QI if called in would've erradicated the solvency level.

Maybe that's why the regulator put the foot down. I do however think that the regulator did move too fast and should've laid down the law and gave QI a few months to get it sorted. It's making a mess of the lives of Fermanagh/Cavan people and if it was a foreign company the gov would be doing their best to keep the jobs. Why did they not do the same for a local company

I think thats a red herring. They were on a yellow card and did the exact same thing and got a red. Its that simple. The rest is just idle conjecture.

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Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 12:00:17 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 12:53:22 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.

I stand by it. Unless its different in the 6, thats their business model and reputation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 01:27:36 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 01:35:10 PM
Sorry DF. I'll stick to my opinion that you either don't know what your talking about or your a liar.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on May 28, 2010, 02:21:02 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....

I say there reputation is x, you say it is y. Its called a difference of opinion, yet somehow I am a liar etc.

Grow up lads.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 28, 2010, 02:27:11 PM
Bit like your comment on them delaying claims DF.

I stand by it. Unless its different in the 6, thats their business model and reputation.

Interestly I hear anecdotes quite to the contrary.  Admittedly only anecdotes but as worthy of comment as a link to a google search.

What I heard was that they were very, very quick to pay-out.  The practice being to land on the doorstep with a seemingly very generous offer of settlement (to the layman) but resulting in a much smaller settlement (and associated costs) than one which would accrue when the legal profession finished their work.............

I think more pertinent here is the fact that the yellow card had been shown before, followed by no apparent remedial action.

/Jim




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on May 28, 2010, 02:56:41 PM
Quinn Direct made a very wise business decision a numbr of years ago to speed up the claims process and avoid litigation costs by appointing claims managers in the various areas who had authority to make fairly substantial offers for compensation to injured parties.  I dealt with them personally and professionally over the years and had a case I was injured in paid out for car damage and personal injuries in less than 6 weeks.  Delay is not something I have experienced
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 03:40:19 PM
This is the point I've been making to DF for a while now. There are things that can be thrown at QD but what he was claiming was complete BS and indeed anyone with any knowledge of the insurance industry in Ireland would know this. Even people with no knowledge of the insurance industry would know this (the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle). Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on May 28, 2010, 03:55:56 PM
(the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle).

Now why doesn't that surprise me ::)  I actually remember when they started it, it was around 2001/2002 and  I was working dealing with litiagtion claims.  I had a few people came in with settlement figures 2-3 days after the accident and they couldn't believe it.  The thing that struck me was how close to the "real value" of a claim that they were.  With the average whipper taking 9-12 months for settlement the punters were happy.  Needless to say I got a Form of Authority signed very quickly and negotiated a few extra quid on their part :P

Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.

This is hardly a first.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 28, 2010, 04:07:02 PM
(the speed of settling became a problem in Belfast were it was being used in insurance fraud by people knowing how quickly QD would settle).

Now why doesn't that surprise me ::)  I actually remember when they started it, it was around 2001/2002 and  I was working dealing with litiagtion claims.  I had a few people came in with settlement figures 2-3 days after the accident and they couldn't believe it.  The thing that struck me was how close to the "real value" of a claim that they were.  With the average whipper taking 9-12 months for settlement the punters were happy.  Needless to say I got a Form of Authority signed very quickly and negotiated a few extra quid on their part :P

Therefore I can only assume that he was just throwing mud at QD with no actual knowledge of what he was claiming or else was purposely lying.

Neither options reflects well on him.

This is hardly a first.


 :D

I'd say there's a fair few solicitors in Belfast that did a jig the day Quinns were put in Admin. It was cutting chunks outa their work.

 

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on May 28, 2010, 04:40:15 PM
Absolute bollocks. Grow up and admit you didnt know what you were talking about, or alternatively (though you'll find this impossible) get some evidence, as you've already been asked to do. You cant just keep insisting you're right when its clear you're wrong, unless you can bring something new to the argument. The attempt to concede that 'mebbe its different in the 6' doesnt count as anything new, just sounds like the start of a concession....

I say there reputation is x, you say it is y. Its called a difference of opinion, yet somehow I am a liar etc.

Grow up lads.

You claimed their entire business model was 'x', even though all the evidence points to the contrary. Its not a difference of opinion, its you being wrong.

Its like me saying 'France doesnt exist', you providing evidence very much to the contrary, and me attributing it to a difference of opinion!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenexile on May 28, 2010, 05:05:58 PM
Quinn insurance do not mess around with the speed at which they settle their claims, they will find ways to get out of them and will often get them settled (without recourse) at much less than a client would if they were with another Insurance Company but speed is definitely not an issue!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on June 03, 2010, 03:51:55 PM
On Primetime tonight.  Will it tell us anything new/
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 01:19:26 PM
Well these administors were money well spent! Looks like half the job cuts they deemed were necessery weren't! And now it's Quinns that are going to have to pick up the cost for their feck up!!

Well done brian, well done!! 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on August 09, 2010, 02:49:21 PM
Please explain !?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 03:03:48 PM
Quinns were told to make job cuts, Are paying out big redundancies and now it turns out half the jobs cuts weren't needed at all. Quinns are going to end up having to hire new people to replace the ones that have been promised reduntancies!!



 

 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on August 09, 2010, 03:20:44 PM
I heard that the majority of the job cuts in the Enniskillen office have been cancelled and that people that were accepted for redundancy have now been told that its been declined.........even though some were due to leave in a matter of weeks, some had new jobs lined up, some had VISA's arranged to USA/Australia etc etc

Talk about a c**k-up, messing around with peoples live here............
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: NAG1 on August 09, 2010, 03:29:30 PM
Think they should count themselves lucky there are people in alot worse off positions than someone being told they could have their redundancy only to be told, hold on a minute heres your job back!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 09, 2010, 03:32:28 PM
Yip complete mess! And it's Quinns that are going to be picking up the cost for the mess. Them administers are well worth their £800 an hr!!  ::)




Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 12:50:27 PM
Interesting reading now that it has been shown that the man in question was fully complicit in the corruption and incompedence. I wonder do the GAA puntits like the one who backed the man in his GAA column have anything to say about it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 12:58:13 PM
Sean Quinn is paying, and will pay for any wrong doings he's done. That's a hell of a lot more than some people are.  You seem to have made a few comments about SQ on here while avoiding mentioning others who would be equally if not more worthy of criticism. Got a slight issue with SQ by any chance?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 01:11:31 PM
Sean Quinn is paying, and will pay for any wrong doings he's done. That's a hell of a lot more than some people are.  You seem to have made a few comments about SQ on here while avoiding mentioning others who would be equally if not more worthy of criticism. Got a slight issue with SQ by any chance?

No I dont, its just all the cheerleader and campaigning from people when this issue originally occurred sickened me. He was made out to be a great saint and that has proven to be as far far the fact as you can get. County boards etc had no place backing one of the people who has the country in the position it is in today.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:19:08 PM
Well it seems that you do. You created another thread with the headline Sean Quinn - Financial terrorist. Despite the fact that there was numerous people mentioned in that link. Then when you got little response to that you bring this thread  back up again.
The cheerleading and campaigning was done because of the good work that he had done. Are you now saying that he didn't do anything to help the Irish economy in his 37 odd year history and even more so to the border areas where he brough jobs and investment.
I don't recall anyone saying he was a saint. He wouldn't have got as big as he did had he been one. But what exactly makes him " as far from a saint as you can get?"
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenmachine on November 23, 2010, 01:19:57 PM
Dry your eyes you crying soccer b**tard.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:26:04 PM
?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: haranguerer on November 23, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
pretty sure it was meant for PSTG
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 01:51:36 PM
pretty sure it was meant for PSTG
Pretty sure it wasnt. The man above seems to be a big Liverpool fan.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 01:55:23 PM
No arguments there PSTG. I can multi task when it comes to supporting sports.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: screenmachine on November 23, 2010, 03:06:58 PM
I can confirm it was meant for PSTG. Apologies for any offence caused supersarsfields!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:25:25 PM
Not a worry SM. I'm still waiting on an answer from PSTG about why SQ is Satan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sprinter on November 23, 2010, 03:33:54 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn’t come down anywhere near last year’s price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 03:42:51 PM
Not a worry SM. I'm still waiting on an answer from PSTG about why SQ is Satan?

Sean Quinn is up there with Sean Fitzpatrick, Liam Caroll, Bertie Ahern, Charlie McGreevy etc. The damage the likes of him has caused to this damage wont be forgotten.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 03:47:19 PM
Quinns pricing isn't within their own control anymore Sprinter which is why the premiums have increased unfortunately. The administrators/ Regulator are now controlling everything including the likes of pricing. 
Like you say, I too would have a worry about QI ability to see out these problems.

PSTG. How exactly is SQ as bad as Sean Fitzpatrick, bertie Ahern. I would like the actually reason why you think this not just a general statement like your above post.

Cheers
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 04:09:13 PM
Quinns pricing isn't within their own control anymore Sprinter which is why the premiums have increased unfortunately. The administrators/ Regulator are now controlling everything including the likes of pricing. 
Like you say, I too would have a worry about QI ability to see out these problems.

PSTG. How exactly is SQ as bad as Sean Fitzpatrick, bertie Ahern. I would like the actually reason why you think this not just a general statement like your above post.

Cheers

I'll be delighted to. He had a major part to play in the debacle that was Anglo Irish. The bank that is at the core of the problems we are facing at the moment. He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:27:10 PM
He made big mistakes with AIB which are more than likely going to cost him his largest and most profitable company. He got in too deep with investments in them but he did not default on any loans that he had taken out and was continuing to pay these loans off which is more that alot of other business men have done over the last two or so years. In fact the majority of his investments were made in AIB based on false figures that he had been given which made the AIB look more profitable than it was. So you'd be doing well to lay th blame of Anglo at his feet.

He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities

On the first point. He had nothing to do with the mobilisation of his work force. I can say that without any doubt as I prob know alot more thn most on that side of things. You seem unable to accept that his workforce have a great deal of respect for SQ himself and alot would still go out of their way to help him. And it's not surprising considering he always provided good working conditions and above industrial averages pay for most if not all areas of his businesses.

Have to say, not sure of what allegations Mark Kiesler has reported on but sure why not throw them up here for us to see?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on November 23, 2010, 04:29:34 PM
He made big mistakes with AIB which are more than likely going to cost him his largest and most profitable company. He got in too deep with investments in them but he did not default on any loans that he had taken out and was continuing to pay these loans off which is more that alot of other business men have done over the last two or so years. In fact the majority of his investments were made in AIB based on false figures that he had been given which made the AIB look more profitable than it was. So you'd be doing well to lay th blame of Anglo at his feet.

He then mobilised his staff and supporters into order to try and save his own back. Those who fall highest fall furthest. There are also that allegations made in the RT report from Mark Kieser about other financial irregularities

On the first point. He had nothing to do with the mobilisation of his work force. I can say that without any doubt as I prob know alot more thn most on that side of things. You seem unable to accept that his workforce have a great deal of respect for SQ himself and alot would still go out of their way to help him. And it's not surprising considering he always provided good working conditions and above industrial averages pay for most if not all areas of his businesses.

Have to say, not sure of what allegations Mark Kiesler has reported on but sure why not throw them up here for us to see?

Make no mistake about it your a Sean Quinn apologist. Great man to work for all right. His greed and recklessness will very well cost the jobs of all Quinn employees.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 04:32:51 PM
Awww good man. Ran out of arguement so just throw in an auld insult.  :D

Your debating skills would require a brush up.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on November 23, 2010, 06:19:43 PM
Awww good man. Ran out of arguement so just throw in an auld insult.  :D

Your debating skills would require a brush up.

I read somewhere a foreign hack saying we need a new poultry metaphor for Cowen as Lame Duck doesn't quite do it.

I think we need a new term for the likes of PSTG as troll doesn't quite do it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on November 23, 2010, 07:01:29 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn’t come down anywhere near last year’s price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.
mine went from 440 to 605 and that was with allianz, fbd said the best they could give me was 650 - costs are going up, not sure what the problem is, have heard there's been an increase in spurious claims, but don't know.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mc_grens on November 23, 2010, 07:20:59 PM
i was a loyal customer of quinn car insurance for the last ten years, with no claims in that period of time. last week imy insurance was up and Quinn price went up from €470 to €699 and even though the customer service people Sympathized with me they couldn’t come down anywhere near last year’s price.

I was thankful to quinn 10 years ago as they were the only company to  quote provisional drivers but their renewal price this year was unreal.

From my analysis Quinn insurance will be gone / goodbye in the next six months, how can they keep going if they continue to lose valued customers like myself.
mine went from 440 to 605 and that was with allianz, fbd said the best they could give me was 650 - costs are going up, not sure what the problem is, have heard there's been an increase in spurious claims, but don't know.

I was 600-ish with Quinn, an my renewal was over 800.

I ended up getting 325 with Axa through the postoffice. It was 5 quid dearer than doing it direct with AXA, but the excess was half!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on November 23, 2010, 07:59:31 PM
I'd say the fact that Quinns hasn't been able to price as keenly as they would have will prob have a knock on effect on prices across the board. Much like when QI first opened other insurance companies had to cut their costs. Now the opposites happening.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on December 15, 2010, 10:00:55 AM
Looks like bad news for Quinns coming out shortly. It'll be bye bye to hundreds of more jobs in the Cavan, Fermanagh areas as a result.  Looks like this American Insurer will be taking over. If it does it'll mean the regional offices will all close. things about to get a bit tougher in that area!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on December 16, 2010, 11:16:51 PM
Looks like bad news for Quinns coming out shortly. It'll be bye bye to hundreds of more jobs in the Cavan, Fermanagh areas as a result.  Looks like this American Insurer will be taking over. If it does it'll mean the regional offices will all close. things about to get a bit tougher in that area!!


Who is posied to take over ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 12:05:18 PM
Quinn group Press release in response to administrators claim that there was no offer involving Quinn family.

Anglo/Quinn Family proposal for QUINN Insurance

By way of update and clarification to our employees, customers and supporters, the board of Quinn Group (ROI) Limited would like to confirm that, contrary to recent reports, a detailed proposal by the Quinn family working in conjunction with Anglo Irish Bank which:

•Protects all policy holders;
•Protects employment in Ireland including a vibrant and profitable export service business;
•Ensures continuing competition in the Irish insurance market; and
•Facilitates the repayment of €2.8bn of Quinn family debt to Anglo / taxpayer;
has been with the board of Anglo Irish Bank and available to the relevant departments of the Irish Government for over six months. The proposal has cross-party and cross-border support.

The proposal presented sees Quinn Insurance Limited remain 100% in Irish ownership under the control of a newly established independent board fully compliant with the requirements of the Financial Regulator.

Quinn Insurance Limited has enjoyed the highest profit margins of any general insurance company in Ireland over the past 10 years and under the proposal 100% of the economic benefit is retained for the Irish taxpayer. Over the 10 year period 2000-2009 Quinn Insurance Limited achieved a Combined Operating Ratio of 86.5% compared to the general insurance market at 94.9%, an out-performance of 8.4% by Quinn Insurance Limited *.

We confirm that the Quinn family remains fully committed to the successful implementation of this proposal. We continue to impress upon all stakeholders the need to give the proposal full and proper consideration to ensure that its objectives, as set out above, are achieved.


However it looks like Anglo have said they are not considering this option and that the proposal they are hoping to run with is the Liberty Mutual which will mean up to the guts of 2000 more job losses.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 02:18:15 PM
Why do they not want to allow Quinn to retain ownership ?

Do they want all their money in one lump by virtue of a sale to Liberty ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 02:31:14 PM
It's looking that way OM. The deal QD were offering would involve paying it of over a seven year basis while retaining all the Irish and NI jobs. If Mutual come in they have confirmed that they would be getting rid of the Cavan, Navan and Enniskillen offices.

There's been alot going on behind the scenes but it looks like it will be a new ownership which will mean Huge job losses in Cavan and Fermanagh. It's going to leave that border area like a ghost town. The problem is with the two Brians. They have an opportunity to step in and try and negotiate a deal that would allow the jobs to be retained and control to stay with Quinns with payments going to Anglo. But neither of them will lose face on the process now despite knowing it would be the best outcome.
If the sale was delayed until after the GE then there would be a far better chance of getting a solution. But that's not looking likely as the sale will prob be finished within the next month.

Tough times ahead unfortunately for me and a lot of others in that area.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Peter Solan the Great on January 12, 2011, 02:33:07 PM
Sad to see that of of the economic traitors greed will mean people losing jobs.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 02:35:15 PM
Good man Pete, that didn't take long.  :D
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 03:30:04 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on January 12, 2011, 04:03:30 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Maybe it's a case of a bird in the hand OM. 

The whole thing is and was very unfortunate and maybe something will be worked out that might save many of the jobs.

Where will the jobs be going if they're moved from Enniskillen, Cavan etc?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 12, 2011, 04:11:06 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 12, 2011, 04:51:17 PM
7 years doesn't seem like a long time to hold out for their money.
Maybe it's a case of a bird in the hand OM.  The whole thing is and was very unfortunate and maybe something will be worked out that might save many of the jobs.

Where will the jobs be going if they're moved from Enniskillen, Cavan etc?


You're probably right there.

It will be an awful blow if there are to be further significant job losses in that region.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: gerry on January 12, 2011, 09:58:52 PM
be a big lost for the enniskillen economy if/when it closes and with the new hospital nearing completion there is not much happening on the job front.

did you see the amount of southern cars parking outside the new hospital last week, easily out numbering local cars
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on January 12, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses.

Where did you hear this about the local offices Supersarsfields? I know someone who works in Quinn in Cavan although they will probably be the last to hear anything.

They have been led to believe that there are 2 bids from Anglo/Liberty and Zurich. The Quinn bid collapsed because Anglo would not stump up the money required by the regulator to fix the balance sheet.

I wouldn't mind but the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 09:37:35 AM
Quinn considers challenge to group's administration order

Thursday January 13 2011

  SEAN Quinn may challenge Quinn Insurance's descent into administration if Anglo Irish Bank insists on excluding the businessman's family from a bid for the stricken insurer.

The news comes ahead of a crunch meeting between Anglo executives and Mr Quinn's lieutenants today, where the Quinn contingent will urge Anglo to reconsider a joint proposal to take over Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL).

Anglo and the Quinn family spent more than eight months developing a joint plan to take over QIL and leverage the insurer to repay €2.8bn worth of debt owed by the Quinns.

 Anglo subsequently decided to pursue a bid with US insurance giant Liberty Mutual.

"We're continually urging them to revisit it [the bid decision] and we'll be urging them to revisit it again [at today's meeting]," said Kevin Lunney, a key lieutenant of Mr Quinn and a former general manger of QIL.

If the Quinn family is unable to convince Anglo to revive the joint bid, Mr Lunney said the family would "have to give consideration to" using a legal opinion to challenge QIL's original descent into administration.

"We got that legal opinion a long time ago, but we didn't want to use it if we could pursue a strategy with Anglo [that would save the 6,000 Quinn Group jobs and guarantee repayment of the debt]," he said.

"We still don't want to go down that route, but we'd have to give it consideration . . . that's not a threat, it's just something we'd have to consider."

The legal opinion from a UK firm, seen by the Irish Independent, says the Financial Regulator should not have concluded that the €1.2bn in guarantees offered by QIL subsidiaries impinged on the insurer's solvency.

The impact of those guarantees on QIL's solvency was a key reason for the Financial Regulator's decision to put the insurer into administration last April.

Mr Lunney said the Quinn family's position might change if it was given a "satisfactory explanation" for why its bid was jettisoned in favour of a bid with Liberty Mutual.

The Quinns believe their joint Anglo bid would have secured full repayment of the €2.8bn debt within seven years, by giving Anglo 100pc of QIL's earnings and then selling the company as well as other Quinn assets.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 09:44:57 AM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses.

Where did you hear this about the local offices Supersarsfields? I know someone who works in Quinn in Cavan although they will probably be the last to hear anything.

They have been led to believe that there are 2 bids from Anglo/Liberty and Zurich. The Quinn bid collapsed because Anglo would not stump up the money required by the regulator to fix the balance sheet.

I wouldn't mind but the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose!

This was coming from Liberty themselves as far as I know. They had said that they only wanted to keep one office in Ireland and that would be the Dublin office. The sale had been more than or less 99% done before Christmas until this came out. Then once the local politicians heard this they pulled back from it. As far as I've heard Liberty aren't interested in the UK business (This alone will mean job losses). Again it's hard to know exactly what is happening as Anglo were denying a possible deal with the Quinns existed and now their meeting with Quinn Representatives today to discuss the sale. It really is hard to keep up with!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on January 13, 2011, 10:29:44 AM
It's time to forget about the whole argumnent here about Sean Quinn and Anglo and it's time to focus on the employees whose futures are more important than political point scoring.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on January 13, 2011, 10:37:11 AM
I suppose you will forget about Fianna Fail and the banks s well?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on January 13, 2011, 10:37:37 AM
Seanie Fitz on Quinn :

Seán Quinn: On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via “contracts for difference” (CFDs).
“David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be.”
When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding “I was physically shocked. I wasn’t expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn’s eyes at my reaction.”
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a “real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right. He was very human but, I didn’t easily like him.”
On March 25th, 2008, the four men met again, this time in a room in Buswells Hotel in Dublin. The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
“He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening.”
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on January 13, 2011, 10:53:40 AM
Quote
Seanie Fitz on Quinn :

Seán Quinn: On September 11th, 2007, FitzPatrick and the then Anglo chief executive David Drumm met Seán Quinn and his associate Liam McCaffrey in the Ardboyne Hotel in Navan, Co Meath, so Quinn could tell them about his huge clandestine investment in the bank via “contracts for difference” (CFDs).
“David was more up to speed clearly about the activities of CFDs. He was bringing me because he always felt that Quinn regarded me as a superhuman, as a superhero. He wanted Quinn to see how disappointed I would be.”
When FitzPatrick learned the size of the Quinn holding “I was physically shocked. I wasn’t expecting that. I said: What! David said afterwards to me that he looked at [Quinn] and that he saw the surprise in Quinn’s eyes at my reaction.”
Fitzpatrick thought Quinn was a “real 1960s Irishman. He was one of those hail fellow well met, ah sure I will go down there and play the old cards, five or six lads for 10 bob, or whatever it was. He was always producing all that and would be nearly blessing himself. Everything will be all right. He was very human but, I didn’t easily like him.”
On March 25th, 2008, the four men met again, this time in a room in Buswells Hotel in Dublin. The ongoing fall in the Anglo share price was threatening the Quinn business empire and the bank. At one stage Quinn and FitzPatrick were alone in the room.
“He was very close to tears. He could see what was happening.”

WAFC that Fitzpatrick is.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 11:01:14 AM
I suppose you will forget about Fianna Fail and the banks s well?

It's not really a case of forgetting about the banks. Under the current proposal by Quinns, Anglo would receive their full dept back again as well as retaining the jobs in Ireland. It will just take seven odd years which is hardly an eternity given the amounts involved. The next week or two will be make or break.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on January 13, 2011, 11:34:26 AM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.

I have a number of friends and relations working for Quinns and none of them have heard this about the local offices being closed.......whats your source ?

Surely employing people in the local offices would be cheaper than employing a workforce in Dublin.....

Surely if the sale process has progressed to having 2 potentail bidders left then theres no way a deal between Anglo & Quinn can now happen............what happens with the 2 bidders left, can we just tell them to feck off we were only messing about selling.......

Ah the whole thing is a mess...............i just wish we'd soon know one way or another.......
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 11:58:38 AM
I don't want to go in too much on where I got my details from on here but as far as I know Brendan Smyth and the other politicians were made aware of Mutual's plan with regards to the jobs as well. In fact this was the reason the sale didn't go through in Dec as expected ( again this is from what I've heard).
With regards the sale process there's nothing to stop an Anglo Quinn bid going through if it's the best option. It wouldn't mean telling the other two bidder to "feck off" or anything. It would be simple enough to say they weren't successful. The problem is that I don't think that's going to happen so I'd be fearful of employees futures (my own included) when the sale is completed.

Like you say it would be nice to know one way or the other at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 12:17:47 PM
just with regards to there not being a Quinn Anglo bid.


Quinn Anglo takeover plans emerge
Author: Mairi MacDonald

Source: Post | 13 Jan 2011

 Details of the Quinn family’s discussion with Anglo Irish Bank over a possible joint takeover of Quinn Insurance have emerged in the Irish press.
The Irish Times has reported that the family proposed to pay holders of some €1.3bn of Quinn Group debt a cash payment of up to €200m, in lieu of guarantees over the assets of the insurance business's subsidiary companies.

The newspaper added: “Among the proposals within the Quinn plan submitted to Anglo are that the family would purchase Quinn Insurance from the administrators for a nominal sum of €1, with Anglo investing up to €650m so that the company meets solvency requirements.”

It claimed that the proposal outlined plans to float or sell the company “in seven years”.

The sale of the insurance business is expected to be announced in the next two to four weeks.


Read more: http://www.postonline.co.uk/post/news/1936812/quinn-anglo-takeover-plans-emerge#ixzz1AutuSLa0
Post - Insurance news for the UK. Subscribe now.


So it seems there been alot of mis-information being put out by all parties in this sales process. With that in mind I'd put my hands up to say anything I have posted has just come from what I've heard or from media outlets like the above article. Stories seem to change daily unfortunately.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Evil Genius on January 13, 2011, 12:38:30 PM
Not sure where the jobs will go bb. Maybe overseas call centre or blended in with their own structures. But Liberty Mutual have said they won't require the staff or local offices so would mean massive job losses. I think these job losses are the only stumbling block with the sales process at the minute as the gov have realised what sort of an impact this will have. Only for this the sale would have been completed by now.

I have a number of friends and relations working for Quinns and none of them have heard this about the local offices being closed.......whats your source ?

Surely employing people in the local offices would be cheaper than employing a workforce in Dublin.....

Surely if the sale process has progressed to having 2 potentail bidders left then theres no way a deal between Anglo & Quinn can now happen............what happens with the 2 bidders left, can we just tell them to feck off we were only messing about selling.......

Ah the whole thing is a mess...............i just wish we'd soon know one way or another.......
Can't claim to know anything about the ins-and-outs of the Irish insurance market, but in the end, all such companies are interested only in  profit.

That is, Liberty will only be interested in Quinn's business/clients, not their staff or offices. And if, as well as taking clients from Quinn, they can also put Quinn out of business permanently, that would be a tremendous coup for them.

As for staff being cheaper etc in Cavan/Ekn than Dublin etc, with the current state of the Irish economy, I doubt whether Liberty's existing Dublin staff are so busy that they could not handle the extra business from Quinn (overtime, temps etc). And in the end, if they really did need more staff to cope, then they could always take on ex-Quinn staff, probably on reduced terms, at whatever location (Cavan/Ekn or Dublin etc) which suits them (Liberty) best. 

Tbh, I'm not one for Governments saving jobs at all costs (even though I really fear for the economy of the border counties if Quinn goes under). For in the end, when a Government subsidises an unproductive job for Worker A, they can only do so by taking extra tax etc from Worker B, who is in a productive job. Eventually, you risk taking so much from Worker B that his/her job becomes unproductive, so that both become a burden on Worker C etc.

Imo, the argument for saving Quinn (i.e. by giving them their 7 years etc) is actually that this will keep the Irish insurance market competitive, which is actually good for the whole of the country. If it also keeps extra workers in employment in one region of the country, so much the better.

Unfortunately, I fear that just as Liberty will only be interested in profit, Cowen & Co will only be interested in trying to clinging on to power somehow, regardless of how slim their chances are. So that if Liberty's offer gives them even an extra month or two etc, they'll probably take that - and bugger the long-term consequences for everyone else.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tyroneboi on January 13, 2011, 01:07:00 PM
Dreadful that jobs are going to be lost and having been unemployed at various times myself it isn't a nice position to be in to say the least. From a purely selfish point of view, my car insurance is up with Quinns at the end of February. How are policies being affected by this latest takeover news? Are prices going up etc??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on January 13, 2011, 01:14:32 PM
Pricing is all over the place TB. Some people are getting crazy quotes and others don't seem to be affected. My own policy was up there and it dropped from £550 ish down to £480 or something close. So it's hard to know what way you'll be affected.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:05:22 PM
Just back from a meeting of the lisnaskea chamber of commerce regarding the Quinn sale. Cross border and cross party representation at it.
It is actually crazy what is happening with regards to this by both the Financial regulator and by their inaction, the two Brians (and this in-action spreads before the recent changes with the Irish gov).
And it's going to be both the tax payer and employees who are going to feel the effect of this.
How a proposal that has been passed by every body involved in the process as being the only proposal that would satisfy the main points ( payment of dept to taxpayer, retain jobs in the local community, protect policy holders etc) has been declined by an emotive regulator who won't respond to direct questions put to him regarding the sale and hides behing the fact that he is unaccountable is going to cost the Irish tax payer 2.8 billion euro. Add to that the probable loss of jobs In a community that is struggling anyway and it's actually unbelievable. And yet that looks like wat is going to happen.

 
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: bcarrier on February 10, 2011, 11:10:13 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2011, 11:11:36 PM
So what is the latest SS ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 10, 2011, 11:30:22 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 10, 2011, 11:56:44 PM
Shocking amount of money - £200million !!!


Is the Quinn bid dead in your opinion ?.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 12:24:28 AM
It's out of the picture at the min OM as the regulator didn't submit it. So techinically it's should be dead. But the only saving grace is that neither of the other two options successfully meets the requirements. And in the last few weeks there has been increasing political influence being exerted by cross border and cross party reps to find out why the Quinn proposal hasn't been forwarded for review. It was too easy for the regulator to ignore Quinn reps when they were asking questions about  why their proposal had been refused, it's another to ignore politicians!! So hopefully if the sale can be stalled til after the new election there might be some hope. Brian Lenihan had refused to discuss the matter for the last three months and refused to attend meetings regarding it so hopefully the quicker a new finance minister is in the better.
But I'm not hopeful. At the end of the day the regulator isn't accountable to the finance minister as he's completely untouchable so he can avoid any questions if he wants to. And it seems like that's what he's going to do!!
I'll try and go into the Quinn proposal in a bit more detail tomorrow but it's head and shoulders above any other option. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 11:42:35 AM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.

Or maybe he is right to be suspicious of any deal that seems to good to be true involving Anglo and Quinn, whose owners have lied, cheated and stole recently?

You are askng the Regulator to trust Sean Quinn, the reciepient of the largest and second largest ever fines in Irish legal history and Anglo, which is the biggest bankruptcy in global history,  claiming he has an 'agenda' when he doesn't?

Thank God no-one who matters is buying this parochical nonsense.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on February 11, 2011, 11:50:34 AM
If it was in our own parish, I think we might be more inclined to believe it as well and it might not sound like nonsense at all.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 12:49:52 PM
Why would the regulator be emotive ?

I can understand why others would be.

There's been a few reasons to be honest. The main one is the fact that he fecked up putting QIL in admin in first place ( both the way he went about it and the reasons behind it). The Quinns decision has been the biggest one he made since coming in. And if Quinns were to get it back now after costing upwards of £200m used up by keeping them in admin for a year it wouldn't reflect well on the way he went about it ( he could have given the company time to sort the solvency like other insurers have in the past. Indeed if Quinns do lose this it's going to result in a huge legal battle regarding the regulator's actions.   
There has been other accusations that have been directed his way aswell regarding his decision to put Qil into admin but I'll not put them up here but you can pm me if you want.
I suppose the main reason alot of people think that he is being emotive is that he can't/ won't justify questions put to him regarding the sale. If there was economic reasons it would be easier to give the reasons rather than leave them unanswered.

OM at the minute they are reviewing two proposals from foreign insurance companies. But neither fits in with the main requirements. Yet regulator prevented the Quinn/ Anglo proposal going ahead and won't give reasons why.

Or maybe he is right to be suspicious of any deal that seems to good to be true involving Anglo and Quinn, whose owners have lied, cheated and stole recently?

You are askng the Regulator to trust Sean Quinn, the reciepient of the largest and second largest ever fines in Irish legal history and Anglo, which is the biggest bankruptcy in global history,  claiming he has an 'agenda' when he doesn't?

Thank God no-one who matters is buying this parochical nonsense.

Again your taking Sh*te about something you obviously know nothing about. The Quinn/ anglo deal means Quinns give up any role in the company. They aren’t involved in any part of it. The only conditions they made were that the jobs were kept local and that the profits over the seven years go to pay of the debt to the Irish tax payer.

Have you read the proposal Dublinfella?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 01:02:47 PM
Sarsfileds,

A backroom deal between Anglo and Quinn is the main reason that Quinn Insurance is at deaths door.

You are now, with a straight face, criticising the Regulator for not approving a second backroom deal between Anglo and Quinn.

The substance of the deal is irrelevant. Neither party has the credibility.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Now again your taking cr*p. Do you think this deal has been trashed out by Quinn and Anglo by themselves? Don't be so stupid. it's been done using all the financial bodies, including PWC among other, it's been stress tested has been shown to have no holes in it.
As you didn't answer my question above I'll assume that you haven't read the proposal and therefore know nothing about what it says. Neither anglo nor Quinn are going to be active in the new company. It would have an independant board of directers that have neither no connections to Quinns nor have to answer any questions from Quinns. It would involve the full regulation of it's accounts including solvency. Therefore the credibility of angle or Quinn has little relevance.

The alternative to this is bringing in a Third party like Zurich or Liberty which will mean two things. The loss of jobs locally and the none payment of £2.8Billion Euro to the tax payer.

Your saying that the only issue is the credibility of the two parties involved in this. Even allowing for this ( Despite the fact, as I've already explained, neither party is going to be involved in running the business) are you saying that because of this credibility issue they should decide on a proposal that ignores two of the major three points that were outlined as areas of concern?  Surely that's cutting of your nose to spite your face? Which is what has been levelled at the regulator. So in a roundabout way you've kinda shown my point regardin the amazement by all political representives at the regulators actions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 01:34:14 PM
The regulator has a job to do.

That is to maintain a solvent and consumer friendly financial sector. And this regulator has done a good job considering the mess he inherited, and that is commonly accepted.

Quinn Insurance are a bust flush due to the possibly criminal actions of their owner in gambling client funds to make a quick buck off Anglo, with their full support. Lets not forget that vital piece of information.

He, and his office, are not buying what SQ and Anglo are selliing, and experience suggests they are damn right. All your emotive language matters not a jot when the simple reality is that the rogues who destroyed the company are not trusted to fix it again.

I'm waiting for you now to start with the fact he is a Brit. Its about as cereberal as the rest of yur posts.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 01:46:58 PM
The regulator has a job to do.

That is to maintain a solvent and consumer friendly financial sector. And this regulator has done a good job considering the mess he inherited, and that is commonly accepted.

Quinn Insurance are a bust flush due to the possibly criminal actions of their owner in gambling client funds to make a quick buck off Anglo, with their full support. Lets not forget that vital piece of information.
He, and his office, are not buying what SQ and Anglo are selliing, and experience suggests they are damn right. All your emotive language matters not a jot when the simple reality is that the rogues who destroyed the company are not trusted to fix it again.

I'm waiting for you now to start with the fact he is a Brit. Its about as cereberal as the rest of yur posts.

You really have no idea about what happened with Quinn and Anglo do you? Once this sale goes through ( And unfortunately it looks like it will) two things are going to happen. Quinns have been advised that they have a legal case against both the regulator and Anglo and that' what's going to happen.

I see the way you have avoided answering any of the questions I've asked you.

Firstly have you read the proposal?
Secondly do you think  the regulator should pick an option that is going to cost the tax payer money and loss jobs when it has been approved by everyone but him that it's the best option?
Do the think the regulator should be allowed to make this decision without given reasons behind his choice considering the value of what's at stake.
And finally do you think that the Regulator is immune to making mistakes just because he's unaccountable?

As for your last point? I suppose that's the standard of debating I've come to expect from you. You came on this thread before and attempted to make false accusations about the way Quinn work and you showed yourself up as at the least ignorant and at worst dishonest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 03:26:28 PM

You really have no idea about what happened with Quinn and Anglo do you?

I do indeed. Need a lesson in CFD's?


Once this sale goes through ( And unfortunately it looks like it will) two things are going to happen. Quinns have been advised that they have a legal case against both the regulator and Anglo and that' what's going to happen.

Advised by who? The regulator has ultimate veto over all mergers and acquisitions in the financial services market. Copperfastned in legislation. More bluster.

I see the way you have avoided answering any of the questions I've asked you.

No I haven't but, here we go.

Firstly have you read the proposal?

Yes.

Secondly do you think  the regulator should pick an option that is going to cost the tax payer money and loss jobs when it has been approved by everyone but him that it's the best option?

Who is 'everyone'? The Quinn family? The Anglo board? Irrelevant.

Do the think the regulator should be allowed to make this decision without given reasons behind his choice considering the value of what's at stake.

Yes. Its his job, its enhsrined in legislation. The actors involved have proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

And finally do you think that the Regulator is immune to making mistakes just because he's unaccountable?

He is accountable, just not to Sean Quinn. And of course he can make mistakes. But in this case I don't think he has.

As for your last point? I suppose that's the standard of debating I've come to expect from you. You came on this thread before and attempted to make false accusations about the way Quinn work and you showed yourself up as at the least ignorant and at worst dishonest.

Is it not very clear to you by now that I have some inside track on this.

The rules have changed. The local robber baron can't click his fingers and get what he wants anymore. Its a regulated industry and the rules have changed.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:19:48 PM
I doubt you have any inside track on this considering how far off you are on most of it. And considering your previous allegations that were ripped to pieces forgive me for not taking your word on that.

I do indeed. Need a lesson in CFD's?[/sup
Do you wana explain why Sean Quinn isn't facing fraud charges then?

Advised by who? The regulator has ultimate veto over all mergers and acquisitions in the financial services market. Copperfastned in legislation. More bluster.

Not Bluster at all. Regardless of whether the Regulator is untouchable or not he still has regulations that he has to follow as well. Including due process when putting a company into Administration. He failed in this and it is more than likely going to involve a legal action against the position of the regulator (Granted Quinns can win no compensation from the regulator as he's untouchable in that sense but can show that he acted unlawfully if that is the case).
The case agaisnt Anglo regarding the outstanding dept should be pretty clear even to you. Again resulting in the Tax payer footing the bill.
Quinns have been advised this by their legal advisers ( Again whether they are successful or not will be another thing but I'd take the advise of them before taking the advise from yourself DF) that they have solid cases against both.

Who is 'everyone'? The Quinn family? The Anglo board? Irrelevant.

PWC, IMF, Anglo, politicians both North and south and Cross party, CIB. Infact the only one that's had issue with it is the regulator who has decided he isn't going to give reasons for why he ditched the proposal. If he even gave reasons for why it was refused then we would be getting somewere. And for someone who was so keen to speak about the sales process up to thi point it's kinda strange that he's suddenly decided to stay stum now!!

Yes. Its his job, its enhsrined in legislation. The actors involved have proved themselves to be untrustworthy.

So if he was making a F*ck up you'd be happy enough that he doesn't have to explain his actions? Right so!

He is accountable, just not to Sean Quinn. And of course he can make mistakes. But in this case I don't think he has.

He' reports to the High Court but he isn't accountable to anyone. Not the finance minister or anyone.
But thankfully as was mentioned by a few of the political representatives last night they are now starting to call for a public enquirey on his handling of this sale. I'd be very interested to see how that would pan out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:20:44 PM
apologies for the feck up in quoting. Kinda doing everything in a rush here.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 04:34:05 PM
The IMF support Quinn over the Irish state.   ;D

Will you stop the lights. What a load of waffle.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 04:46:54 PM
It seems clear enough to me that you have no idea what's in the proposal, you have no idea who has been involved in the drawing up of this proposal and you have seem to have no interest this decision could mean to people.

In other words I'm trying to tell you that your full of Sh*te.

The IMF have said that if the money that is being touted is to be invested by Anglo to shore up the solvency issue in Quinns is required they see no reasons why it shouldn't be used for that. Considering it would be sitting in an account untouched anyway as it is only to fulfil the solvency ratio ie having liquid asset.

So yet you still havent given a reason why the regulator shouldn't at least explain why the proposal isn't on the table? Instead you've faffed about talking cr*p. Surely if he had legit reasons why not come out and say them now? He's been quick enough to speak out in the past regarding this not least the "show me the money comment". Surely that would be the best way to clear things up.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:04:20 PM
It seems clear enough to me that you have no idea what's in the proposal, you have no idea who has been involved in the drawing up of this proposal and you have seem to have no interest this decision could mean to people.

In other words I'm trying to tell you that your full of Sh*te.

The IMF have said that if the money that is being touted is to be invested by Anglo to shore up the solvency issue in Quinns is required they see no reasons why it shouldn't be used for that. Considering it would be sitting in an account untouched anyway as it is only to fulfil the solvency ratio ie having liquid asset.

So yet you still havent given a reason why the regulator shouldn't at least explain why the proposal isn't on the table? Instead you've faffed about talking cr*p. Surely if he had legit reasons why not come out and say them now? He's been quick enough to speak out in the past regarding this not least the "show me the money comment". Surely that would be the best way to clear things up.

Anglo's money is state money, so either way it costs the taxpayer. And in light of the governments decision to force a merger and wind down of Anglo and INBS, its even more pie in the sky.

I have explained that the regulator is under no obligation whatsoever to explain his decisions to anyone, although I agree he should.

The solvency issues, as you euphamisctically put it, in Quinn Insurance are caused by high jinks with Anglo. Now you are claiming the only credible solution to this is another deal with Anglo. Surely you can see why there would be resistance to that?

Can I ask you a simple question. Who do you blame for this mess?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 05:14:13 PM
 :D Your kinda showing yourself up a wee bit for a guy in the "know"

You do reaslise that the other proposals involve anglo stumping up as well??? So no matter what it means the state putting in money. Only with the Anglo Quinn deal all profits are ringfenced and paid directly to the tax payers and after seven years they then sell the business and take full profits from the sale. This proposal as has been confirmed by PWC would mean the tax payer getting roughly 4.8 Billion over the seven years. Compare this to the loss of 2.8 billion otherwise.

But I'm wasting my time. From the post above you have no idea what is going on nor know anything about the Quinn Anglo proposal.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:17:10 PM
:D Your kinda showing yourself up a wee bit for a guy in the "know"

You do reaslise that the other proposals involve anglo stumping up as well??? So no matter what it means the state putting in money. Only with the Anglo Quinn deal all profits are ringfenced and paid directly to the tax payers and after seven years they then sell the business and take full profits from the sale. This proposal as has been confirmed by PWC would mean the tax payer getting roughly 4.8 Billion over the seven years. Compare this to the loss of 2.8 billion otherwise.

But I'm wasting my time. From the post above you have no idea what is going on nor know anything about the Quinn Anglo proposal.

I know about the proposal. I just believe that I am more likely to return 4.8bn to the exchequor in 7 years than they are.

And I assume the regulator has the same cynicism.

You are very loyal for whatever reason. You are taking proven liars, chancers and vagabonds at their word.

But you ignored my question. Who is the one person who has put these jobs in peril with his greed?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 05:35:50 PM
As I've said before Quinn made a huge mistake getting involved with anglo and it's cost him everything. And if it's not going to get sorted it's also going to cost Quinn employees aswell. I've no problem admitting that.
And while you may argue otherwise Quinn has been loyal to his employees. This proposal takes him out of the company that he was most proud of and takes away any say over that company. Yet he is fighting to keep it not just to keep payments on his dept ( As mentioned if he loses QIL he's taking action against Anglo to get the dept written of so either way) but to maintain employment in the area. That might be hard for someone from Dublin to grasp but it' true.

Regarding your other comment about you being more likely to make 4.8 billion over the next 7 years. You'd want to tell your friends the Administators and the regulator that, considering it was based on figures they themselves are using and projecting :D

My loyality isn't blind. I owe alot to SQ personally and I'll admit to the mistakes he's made. But without him I wouldn't have been able to afford to own the house I'm in at the minute.
He's made a whole lot of right decisions as well. And no one can doubt the fact he has been loyal to the area he's help develop and farther afield in Ireland when he could have easily outsourced to another country for cheaper.
What I can't understand is why a Regulator who is as you say is wrongly refusing to give reasons is being allowed to make this decision without any other interference. As you said yourself, the regulator should just give his reasons and if their acceptable then that's it over. His refusal to do this is what is fuelling the fires which believe he is acting above his remitt by stopping the anglo quinn proposal going to the Administrators
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: dublinfella on February 11, 2011, 05:41:53 PM
To be honest with you, I don't give a damn about his loyalty to the area, real or percieved.

Thousands of jobs are at stake because SQ broke the law and gambled with policyholders money.

Just because he is liked in an area does not give him a pass.

And with respect, if you work for the company, are you in a position to look at this impartially? You have a vested interest in the deal going one way. And that way might not be in the policy holders or states interest.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 11, 2011, 06:04:48 PM
Well agree to disagree then as I do give a damn about his loyality.

Thousands of employees are in jobs because of risks SQ took.

He's hardly asking for a pass. He's giving up his company!!

My working for a company doesn't stop me viewing anything. I can see the mistakes he's made and know what the implications are as a result of them. But I can also see the implications of the way this sales process has ben driven. Two wrongs don't make a right. No point in punishing him just for the sake of it when your going to be punishing alot more than just him.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on February 22, 2011, 01:24:20 PM
Latest news on the Quinn Sale.


From Post.ie


The Quinn Group is expected to renew its efforts to be involved in the buyout of Quinn Insurance, after it was confirmed that no decision on the insurer’s future would be made until after the general election.

It is understood that the group has commissioned a report from an international accountancy firm, which questions the Financial Regulator’s decision to put Quinn Insurance into administration on March 30 last year.

The new government is expected to face intensive lobbying to review the decision, which led to the insurer being put on the market.

The regulator and the administrators have also been urged to reopen Quinn Insurance’s British commercial insurance business, which was shut down by the regulator on the same day the administrators were appointed.

At the time, the regulator said that the reason behind the move was ‘‘to prevent Quinn Insurance Limited suffering further financial losses from its currently unprofitable UK business’’, but the Quinn Group claims the commercial business was operating profitably.

A report commissioned by the administrators from EMB, a firm of specialist insurance auditors, suggests that parts of the British business were profitable, although the overall British business was loss making.

Quinn Insurance had about 250 staff in Enniskillen working on the British commercial business, which had customers including Tesco and building firm Laing O’Rourke.

However, those jobs are expected to be lost as part of the restructuring of the insurer.

The sale of Quinn Insurance has reached its final stage, but the administrators confirmed to the firm’s staff last Thursday that no decision would be made until the new government was formed.

The two final bids are understood to be from a joint venture between Anglo Irish Bank and US firm Liberty Mutual, and from Swiss insurer Zurich.

The Quinn Group had been in talks with Anglo about a joint bid for the insurer, which it claimed would protect jobs and allow full repayment of the €2.8 billion owed to Anglo by the group and its founder, Sean Quinn. However, it was ruled out of the running late last year, and none of the final bids for the firm involved the group.

Supporters of Quinn have stepped up their efforts to have the administration and sale process reviewed following the latest delay.

A meeting took place last Tuesday between groups that support Quinn’s proposal for the company, including a cross-party political group led by Sinn Fe¤ in TD Caoimhghin O’Caoláin.

The meeting was also attended by representatives of the Quinn Group, members of Cavan Chamber of Commerce, and lobby group Concerned Irish Business.

They plan to communicate directly with the chief executive of the National Treasury Management Agency (which will fund Anglo’s part of any bid), Central Bank governor Patrick Honohan and Minister for Finance Brian Lenihan. It is understood that members of Cavan County Council will meet the Financial Regulator, Matthew Elderfield, on February 28.

In the e-mail to staff last week, one of the administrators, Michael McAteer of Grant Thornton, said there were ‘‘a number of matters’’ that could not be finalised until after the election. However, he said he could not go into details of any of the bids, ‘‘as to do so may impede our ability to deliver a very good deal for the company and its staff’’.

‘‘I want to stress that the sales process has not been suspended, and that this delay is due to the political climate that the country is currently experiencing, not due to lack of interest on behalf of the bidders," he said.


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on February 22, 2011, 02:18:23 PM
To be honest with you, I don't give a damn about his loyalty to the area, real or percieved.

Thousands of jobs are at stake because SQ broke the law and gambled with policyholders money. Just because he is liked in an area does not give him a pass.

And with respect, if you work for the company, are you in a position to look at this impartially? You have a vested interest in the deal going one way. And that way might not be in the policy holders or states interest.
I don't think that's the case actually.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Denn Forever on April 12, 2011, 11:08:46 AM
Poacher becoming gamekeeper?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2011/0412/1224294481758.html

A joint venture proposal from State-owned Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual (whose interest was first reported in these pages last year) seems to be in pole position. Insurer Zurich is also in the mix.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 12, 2011, 12:53:49 PM
There's alot going on behind the scenes here at the minute. The Liberty Mutual deal definitely looks like the most likely outcome at this stage unfortunately (IMO).

Was glad to see that the high court rejected the Administators request to have a private hearing on the sale.

There'll be alot left to run on this saga after the sale process is finished.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 12, 2011, 01:08:10 PM
Is Quinn definitely out of the bidding process SS ?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 12, 2011, 01:16:47 PM
Hard to say OM. There's still alot of work going on behind the scenes from what I hear and I think there might be a few meetings this week in fact. They are still trying to push the SQ proposal but to be honest I would be surprised if they managed to pull things around at this stage.

But at the end of the day until someone else buys it he's still got a chance all be it a small one.

There could be some pretty big fall out from this whole thing once the sales aspect is sorted.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 13, 2011, 07:42:05 PM
From the Anglo Celt. 

Quinn Group proposal was submitted just last week
 by Tom Carron Comments (0) |  Print |  Email
A fully costed Quinn Group proposal for the acquisition of Quinn Insurance is on the table of the joint administrators since last week and has been forwarded to the bankers selecting a buyer.
This was revealed at Monday's meeting of Cavan County Council when Quinn Group executives, Kevin Lunney and Dara O'Reilly, presented the Quinn proposal, which they claim will reimburse the state with the €2.8bn owing to Anglo Irish Bank by the Quinn family within seven years; exploit the company's profitability and guarantee jobs.
Predicated on government backing, the submission seeks €500m cash from an Irish bank to cover the solvency requirements of the financial regulator, although Mr Lunney and Mr O'Reilly said there was €1bn in funds at Quinn Insurance and the €500m was not required to meet claims or running costs. They said a meeting was likely with the Minister for Finance, Michael Noonan, tomorrow Thursday. Responding to a question from Cllr Peter McVitty, Mr Lunney said they had sought meetings with the previous minister, Brian Lenihan, without success. In a response to Cllr John Paul Feeley, Mr Lunney revealed that the Quinn proposal had only gone to the table of the joint administrators last week. He conceded that up until then their proposal had not been submitted in the formal sense.
Cllr Andrew Boylan called on Taoiseach Enda Kenny, Minister Michael Noonan and Minister Richard Bruton "to use their offices to ensure that... the business stays in Cavan. We will not contemplate somebody... relocating it to Dublin or outside the country".
Mr Lunney said they were seeking the support of Cavan County Council for the proposal. He pointed out that the Quinn Group contributed €1.3bn in taxes to both the Republic and the North and under their proposal the company could quickly return to the point when it could make €100m in a tax contribution annually. He said the Quinn Group wage roll in the Republic was €90m and in the North €50m annually. Contractors supplying the Quinn Group contributed €200m in taxes.
"It is proven that the business in Northern Ireland and the UK is profitable. It is regrettable that business is lost to competitors - we want to make sure that it is not lost to the community," he said.
The Quinn executives pointed out that the proposal was now in exactly the same position as the Liberty Mutual/Anglo proposal.
Council chairman, Cllr Des Boylan, said: "I sincerely hope it will be thoroughly examined and will be successful" and the council decided to email forthwith a resolution to that affect to the government.


I just hope FG have bigger balls than FF had.  But I wouldn't hold my breath! At least it seems that the Quinn proposal has now been allowed to reach the table.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 14, 2011, 11:40:45 AM
Quinn Insurance has announced Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank as the preferred bidder for the company.

In a separate announcement, Anglo Irish Bank has announced that Kieran Wallace of KPMG will take control of the Quinn family's shares in Quinn Group.

He will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors to the group.

It is proposed that Liberty Mutual will provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority shareholding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

The High Court heard that all 1,570 jobs in the Republic and in Northern Ireland will transfer to the joint venture. Cavan will remain the head office of the business.

As part of the plan, the Navan office is to close and the 100 staff will relocate to either Blanchardstown or Cavan.

30 staff employed in Manchester are to be offered redundancy.

In a statement, the Central Bank said it noted the announcement from Quinn Insurance.

A petition signed by 90,581 people was also presented to Minister for Finance Michael Noonan asking that any plan for Quinn Insurance's future be fully examined before a decision is made.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 12:01:10 PM
Gutted when I got the news this morning.

Anyone looking experienced Claims investigator? Free to good home.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 14, 2011, 01:13:03 PM
Quinn Insurance has announced Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank as the preferred bidder for the company.

In a separate announcement, Anglo Irish Bank has announced that Kieran Wallace of KPMG will take control of the Quinn family's shares  in Quinn Group.
He will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors to the group.



It is proposed that Liberty Mutual will provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority shareholding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

The High Court heard that all 1,570 jobs in the Republic and in Northern Ireland will transfer to the joint venture. Cavan will remain the head office of the business.

As part of the plan, the Navan office is to close and the 100 staff will relocate to either Blanchardstown or Cavan.

30 staff employed in Manchester are to be offered redundancy.

In a statement, the Central Bank said it noted the announcement from Quinn Insurance.

A petition signed by 90,581 people was also presented to Minister for Finance Michael Noonan asking that any plan for Quinn Insurance's future be fully examined before a decision is made.

Does the bit in bold mean that Sean has also lost the Quinn group as well as Quinn insurance??
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: armaghniac on April 14, 2011, 01:20:27 PM
Quote
Does the bit in bold mean that Sean has also lost the Quinn group as well as Quinn insurance??

I  think so. Instead of waiting for Quinn to pay back the loot, they now have the company.

I wouldn't think Seanie Fitzpatrick is on Quinn's Xmas  card list.  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 01:22:45 PM
From what I've heard that's the just of it FG. Not only the group but also the hotels, overseas properties etc.

I'm sure it will see the start of a huge legal fight on behalf of Quinn and I hope to feck he wins it.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FermGael on April 14, 2011, 01:29:22 PM
Thats a shocker. 
Did not see that comming.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: lynchbhoy on April 14, 2011, 01:34:23 PM
Gutted when I got the news this morning.

Anyone looking experienced Claims investigator? Free to good home.
best of luck to you and all the other Quinn group workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 01:50:06 PM
Thanks LB. Couldn't have happened at a worse time. Got my wedding coming up now in the summer and just finished buyin a site!! Doubt that'll be put on hold for the time being!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 14, 2011, 01:56:30 PM
Thanks LB. Couldn't have happened at a worse time. Got my wedding coming up now in the summer and just finished buyin a site!! Doubt that'll be put on hold for the time being!!

Yea best of luck SS.

Don't know much about this but how can a bank that is being wound down, announced the biggest corporate losses in our history - losses bigger than the entire income tax take for the year, is considered an international pariah and is the subject of a promise by the new Government not to receive any new funding....win a bidding contest?

Surely the idea is to put Quinn into better management.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 02:01:10 PM
The idea is that Anglo won't have any input in the day to day management of QIL. That's why liberty are there for their insurance expertise. They've been more or less handed a free pass into insurance in Ireland and the UK with anglo stumping up the cash and taking the risk.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 14, 2011, 02:52:11 PM
Are you sure that SQ has lost control of the entire group ?


I can't see that being able to be pushed through without a serious legal challenge.


It's some mess. Not what we needed at this or any time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 03:03:52 PM
I'm only going on reports from the news and from speaking to a few other employees but it seems that they have taken control of everything.

There'll be a legal challange but it'll take years for any conclusion to come from that. Still in shock at this decision tbh. I knew the insurance was more or less a goner (despite the lies that has obviously been told to QD representatives over the last week or so) but I didn't think they would take the Group.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 14, 2011, 05:22:33 PM
From the Irish Times:

The Quinn Group is to undergo major financial and corporate restructuring following the appointment of a receiver to the Quinn family’s share in the business by Anglo Irish Bank.  Seán Quinn and his family will no longer have any role in the management, operations or ownership of the group under the plan, which was announced today.  Mr Quinn was unable to repay €2.8 billion in loans that built up through borrowings from Anglo Irish that he used to fund massive share investments in the bank. Other lenders to the Quinn Group are owed some €1.28 billion.

Kieran Wallace of KPMG has been appointed share receiver and will take control of the family’s interests in the group. Mr Wallace will oversee the appointment of a new board of directors.  Anglo chief executive Mike Aynsley said the appointment would have no impact on the day-to-day operation of the company. "A share receiver is different from normal receiver, which takes over the assets of a company," he said.  Mr Aynsley said that there "will no doubt be some write offs" associated with the overall level of debt owed to Anglo Irish Bank by Mr Quinn.

Quinn Group chairman Pat O’Neill said an agreement in principle had been reached with its lenders on a way to restructure its debt. This is expected to relieve the manufacturing side of the group of some €500 million of debt over a period of five years.  The Quinn Group is involved in the manufacture of glass, insulation materials, packaging, plastics and radiators. More than 2,600 are employed in the group’s manufacturing activities, with 1,000 of the jobs in Ireland.  Mr O’Neill said the restructuring would provide financial stability and sustainability to the group.  “We do not anticipate job losses from or related to this restructuring,” he said. “On the contrary it will help to protect jobs. There are no plans whatever to break-up the manufacturing businesses.”

Minister for Finance Michael Noonan welcomed the debt restructuring plan agreed between Anglo Irish and the Quinn lenders. “This structure will enable the good and strong businesses to continue to trade and grow. It is particularly important that there will be no impact on employment, on trade creditors or on day-to-day operations of the Quinn Group,” he said.  Lenders to the Quinn Group, including Irish and other international institutions, said they looked forward to working with the newly appointed board.  "The debt restructuring plan includes a substantial debt reduction on the group’s manufacturing operations which will provide the foundation for the Quinn Group’s future growth and success," they said in a statement.

The Quinn Group has also announced the appointment of a new chief executive. Paul O’Brien (43), currently a non-executive director of Quinn Group having joined the board last November, is to take over from Liam McCaffrey.  Mr O’Brien was chief executive of Four Leaf Investment NV, which operates a number of hotels in Belgium and France. He previously worked with Compaq and UTV Media plc.

It was also announced today that a joint venture of US insurer Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank have been selected as the preferred bidder for the general insurance business of Quinn Insurance Ltd.  While the deal has yet to be finalised and the contracts of sale have yet to be signed, it is envisaged there will no job losses among the insurance firms 1,570 employees in the Republic or Northern Ireland as a result.  If successful, the bid would see Liberty Mutual, the fifth largest insurer in the US, take complete responsibility for the operation of the new business.  Joint administrators Michael McAteer and Paul McCann said Anglo would have no involvement in the day-to-day operation of the new company, but would act in a loan recovery capacity.

Quinn Insurance was placed in administration in March of last year at the request of the Financial Regulator.  Mr O’Neill said Mr Quinn had deservedly earned the respect for the work he did starting and building up the Quinn Group businesses.  “Sadly, in more recent years a number of well-publicised events have left the manufacturing group with substantial borrowings which, quite simply, the group could not service. If these debts were not restructured, the businesses could not survive in their present form,” he said.  Mr Quinn stepped down as head of the group in May of last year. His family owned as much as 28 per cent of Anglo Irish Bank at one point, having built their shareholding through contracts for difference, which did not require them to reveal their stakebuilding.  The stock declined rapidly as the financial crisis worsened, eventually wiping out Mr Quinn’s €2.8 billion investment after Anglo was nationalised in January 2009.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 14, 2011, 05:37:07 PM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 15, 2011, 04:10:21 PM
I feel very sad for Sean he made a huge mistake but hasn't been allow to try and rectify it. Don't understand why Anglo and the government are giving up on the family debt by taking over the company.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 04:57:05 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2011, 08:42:00 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.
[/b]

Does that judgement in Belfast court today make that possibility more likely now ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13097268
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: mylestheslasher on April 15, 2011, 08:49:42 PM
What a sad day this is for Cavan & Fermanagh and indeed a lot of other counties too. A man who single handedly created 1000's of jobs when no one would touch the region is not being hung out to dry. Sean Quinn will probably be declared bankrupt soon which will mean he will not be allowed to start a business for 12 years. What a country, we destroy the type of man we desperately need to get us out of this shit we are in.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 15, 2011, 09:06:00 PM
What a sad day this is for Cavan & Fermanagh and indeed a lot of other counties too. A man who single handedly created 1000's of jobs when no one would touch the region is not being hung out to dry. Sean Quinn will probably be declared bankrupt soon which will mean he will not be allowed to start a business for 12 years. What a country, we destroy the type of man we desperately need to get us out of this shit we are in.

The papers were speculating that SQ will go across the border where bankruptcy laws are more relaxed and less onerous.

12 months in the North and you're up and running again.

I agree with you - SQ and the likes of him are desperately needed at this time to create opportunities. I'm told he had big plans for even more employment in the Fermanagh and Cavan areas.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on April 15, 2011, 10:40:42 PM
Irish government finally got their man... Quinn Group basically nationalised now with the fact Anglo is stated owned? He made a massive mistake, which can only have been on the basis of numbers that must have looked very appealing. It's all wrong.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 15, 2011, 10:52:21 PM
That's a bit I can't understand myself. I see no benefit in what they have done. He had a proposal that had been stress tested by PWC as a means of paying the debt back over 5-7 years and then on top of that Anglo would have been able to sell a solid insurance company instead of the mess it is now.
They have more or less said that they are never going to get some of it back now. And they have the added risk now of SQ taking legal action against Anglo for falsifying of accounts.
[/b]

Does that judgement in Belfast court today make that possibility more likely now ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13097268

Not sure tbh OM. Everything is very up in the air at the minute. It could open a whole can of worms if he was successful against Anglo as anyone who invested under the false figures would then be entitled to do the same. But there's a bit to be sorted before it gets that far.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on April 15, 2011, 11:09:47 PM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers.
Deal seems to involve no sale of Quinn Group assets for 5 years so jobs should be safe from that end.

Initially anyway Liberty/Anglo deal is proposing no job losses but once the takeover is complete I suppose they can do what they want after 6 or 12 months.
Maybe I am being naive but would the fact that the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose count for anything in terms of keeping jobs in the border areas?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 16, 2011, 10:43:17 AM
I don't think there will be  immediate job losses within the group to be fair. It seems to be on a level footing and most are geographically tied to the area with the factories, quarries etc.
But I'd be very surprised if there's not more redundacies from the insurance side within the next 6months. In addition to the numbers quoted in the papers there's roughly 1000 self employed Claims Managers that only work for Quinn. We've been more or less told that the likelyhood of Liberty keeping us on is small. Course there'll be little mention of these job losses in any of the papers.
Deal seems to involve no sale of Quinn Group assets for 5 years so jobs should be safe from that end.

Initially anyway Liberty/Anglo deal is proposing no job losses but once the takeover is complete I suppose they can do what they want after 6 or 12 months.
Maybe I am being naive but would the fact that the CEO of Liberty is from Derrynoose count for anything in terms of keeping jobs in the border areas?

I've heard that mentioned a few times here over he past couple of days.  Maybe but IMHO you don't get to be CEO of a company like this by letting sentiment rule your business decisions.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cde on April 16, 2011, 01:07:57 PM

[/quote]
I've heard that mentioned a few times here over he past couple of days.  Maybe but IMHO you don't get to be CEO of a company like this by letting sentiment rule your business decisions.
[/quote]


Sean Quinn   :P
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 17, 2011, 09:11:30 PM
It seems a lot of what the papers are being told regarding these jobs being safe isn't exactly 100%. what's being said behind closed doors by Anglo is a far cry from wat we're being told in the papers.

And it seems they're running scared of this legal challange. I see they're trying the auld emotional blackmail now. Saying a legal challange will threaten the jobs.

Aynsley warned, however, that any move by Quinn to pursue legal action against Anglo over its move to put the Quinn Group into receivership could potentially put the jobs of many of its 4,500 employees at risk.

Legal action, he told Ronald Quinlan, would “not be productive to the interests of the businesses Sean Quinn spent so many years building up, or for the people employed there.”


 
The spin that Anglo are putting into the papers is crazy when you know what's really going on. This move by Anglo is going to go down as one of the worst ever. They've virtually blown any chance of getting the debt back and are going to end up killing employment in that area.

Cement will be the first to feel the pinch and i'd guess less than 6 months before we see the first lay-ofs if not before.  There's even some in the know who reckon you could be looking at the factory closing in that time! It seems SQ is getting a lot of support from his Previous customers. Many stating they won't deal with Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 12:20:18 PM
Truck blocking Quinn HQ entrance 
A dumper truck blocked the entrance to Quinn HQ on Monday morning



A large dumper truck has been placed across the entrance to the headquarters of Quinn Group in County Fermanagh.

The vehicle has prevented cars from going in or out of the Derrylin premises on Monday morning.

It follows the decision by Anglo Irish Bank to remove founder Sean Quinn from his business empire last week.

Mr Quinn's family owes the bank £2.5bn but some people in the border region remain loyal to him, praising him for creating jobs in the area.

Last Thursday, Anglo Irish Bank appointed accountants KPMG to take control of the Quinn family shares in the business.

Anglo Irish Bank chief executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an "enormous" amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.

Employees have been told that there are no plans for any job losses.

BBC NI District Reporter Julian Fowler said that there has been mixed feelings about Mr Quinn's downfall in the area but some continued to pay tribute to his contribution to the local economy.

The most profitable part of the Quinn empire, Quinn Insurance, is to be sold after being in administration for the past year.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 12:49:03 PM
There was a bit of a hiccup on Friday too. Power line cut going to some of the offices. Workers were without computers for large part of the day.

It's very unfortunate.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 12:56:32 PM
There was a bit of a hiccup on Friday too. Power line cut going to some of the offices. Workers were without computers for large part of the day.

It's very unfortunate.
why are they doing this?

As far as Anglo having any power over redundancies etc, since the state owns Anglo, surely they can be instructed to do whatever the state wants?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:06:08 PM
I'd assume it's to disrupt the takeover.

Anglo have no power directly but consultants will be brought in on each sector. And they'll advise job cuts. Especialy since business is going to drop like a stone in certain factorys. You could be looking at a fire sale of the businesses before long just to try and re-group anything from it. Where as if they had continued with SQ in charge they had a chance of paying of the debts. Now not only will they not get the debt repaid there'll be job losses on top of that.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 01:41:01 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 01:44:26 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.
What measures did SQ have that would ensure that the state got its money back? 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 01:55:38 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 02:07:53 PM
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this, SQ should have been allowed to carry on with measures put in place to ensure that the state gets their money back over time.


As it is now, and as things are shaping up, this could all go belly up and jobs and all will go.

SQ has a fiercely loyal base in the border counties and some people at least are now prepared to stand up and be counted.
What measures did SQ have that would ensure that the state got its money back?

I honestly think that all of that could have been worked out ifg there had been the will. The will wasn't there.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 18, 2011, 02:09:57 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 02:11:47 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.



Nail on the head.

I think that this is something that most people find greatest difficulty with.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 02:26:58 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

Very true Muppet. I've have never hidden the fact that I would be very Pro Quinn. And I accept that in certain areas that would obscure my judgements in some of these matters. And I've never been one to say SQ doesnt have any blame in this whole matter.
But even allowing for someone who might have no loyalities to SQ or to the area in general I still can't understand how someone involved in business could make the decisions that have lead us to where we are now.
How they can make a decision and say ok instead of taking an option that MIGHT repay the dept in full and perhaps even at the end of a few years make a profit, they're going to take one that they KNOW won't pay back the debt and in all likelyhood will reduce the values of all the assets. It just makes no business sense. and at the end of the day it's going to be the tax payers taking the hit.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: AQMP on April 18, 2011, 02:33:43 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

Absolutely.

Living in Fermanagh, 50% of me thinks "Well if it wasn't for SQ there would be no businesses to take over" and 50% of me thinks "Well he took an almighty punt on people's jobs and lost heavily" but 100% of me thinks that Anglo has some brass neck.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: seafoid on April 18, 2011, 02:38:56 PM
He had the Quinn proposal that had been drawn up using the administers numbers and projections, that had also been stress tested by PWC that showed that he would have had the majority of the debt paid back within 7 years and that anglo would then still own the business and could sell it at a profit. (SQ was no doubt hoping that he'd be in a position to buy it back at this stage).

Instead they have tried to move on his assets which as they have already said isn't going to cover the majority of the debt.

And the value of some of these assets are going to drop like stones without SQ ie the cement factory.

I wouldn't have the same feelings towards Quinn as those from the area but he obviously invokes strong loyalties. I must say though I find it incredibly galling and insulting that anyone anywhere has to dance to the tune of Anglo Irish Bank after what they have done. It disgusts me no end.

I think it is all rotten. Quinn may have done a lot for local people but what he did with the Anglo shares was utterly corrupt. Anglo brought down the sovereign. There is no honour for either of them. 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 18, 2011, 05:21:33 PM
http://www.cavanchamber.ie/uploads/Cavan/documents/QIL%20Summary%20Position%20CCC.pdf

The link above takes us to the Quinn proposal - is that the most recent one?  There's no mention of PWC on it, so maybe it's been updated to reflect a more unbiased and realistic plan?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 18, 2011, 05:31:13 PM
Ignoring all the recent issues surrounding this, can anyone explain in simple terms how Quinn and/or the group came to owe Anglo €2.8bn?

I am aware of the €3bn CFD which took a 25% stake in Anglo. That involved SQ putting up €300m and presumably a CFD house put up the other €2.7bn. I am aware of the 'Golden 10' arrangement whereby Anglo 'helped' Quinn reduce his CFD holding.

But how did Anglo specifically end up being the creditor?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 18, 2011, 05:35:56 PM
As far as I know BB that's pretty up to date. The proposal was drawn up and stress tested along with PWC.

Why do you think it's unrealistic? The figures for the first few years were actually provided by the administers.
Even if it only hit 70% of what it was estimating it would still be a better option for the tax payers than the current deal.  And that's before you take into account job loses etc.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 18, 2011, 11:57:22 PM
Is this a man resigned to defeat ?

Sean Quinn upset at Quinn group restructure

Sean Quinn has said the decision by Anglo Irish Bank to appoint share receivers to the Quinn group was the "greatest upset" in his entire business career.

It was announced on Thursday that Mr Quinn would no longer have any role in the management of his company.

The bank said that Kieran Wallace of KPMG would take control of the Quinn family's shares.

The businessman and his family owe Anglo Irish Bank 2.88bn euros.

Other lenders to the Quinn Group are owed almost 1.3bn euros.

In a statement, Mr Quinn said he and his colleagues had spent the past year developing a proposal which would have allowed them to "discharge fully all the family's obligations to the Irish tax payer".

He said that during this time he had consulted with some of the most respected and experienced individuals in Irish and UK business.

"I am utterly convinced that our proposal could achieve the retention and increase of skilled employment in the group," Mr Quinn said.

The businessman blamed the banks for the company's financial downfall.

'Life sentence'
 
"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

"Ireland needs enterprise and entrepreneurs more than ever at this time but mistakes in business should not result in a life sentence."

The Fermanagh man thanked customers and staff for their "huge contribution" to the company's success.

"There is no workforce anywhere that has the talent, commitment, loyalty and determination of the Quinn workforce," he said.

"They have created and sustained skilled employment in regions where this was not seen as possible before."

Mr Quinn said the extensive media coverage since last week's announcement had resulted in some "inaccurate and false" reporting.

A five-year restructuring plan has been agreed between Anglo and the Quinn Group's lenders, aimed at stabilising the businesses, which are described as "fundamentally good and profitable".

Repayment of debt
 
Anglo Irish Bank chief executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an "enormous" amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.

He said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the Irish tax payer over time.

The company also revealed that Liberty Mutual and Anglo Irish Bank was the preferred bidder for the company.

Liberty Mutual would provide the management and insurance expertise to Quinn Insurance.

Anglo Irish Bank will retain a minority share holding in the new firm but will have no dealings in the day-to-day management of the new company.

It is hoped a deal will be finalised within the next four to six weeks.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 19, 2011, 12:45:07 AM
"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

Dem's High Court words, imho, allegedly, caveat emptor.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 19, 2011, 08:28:43 AM
"Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

Dem's High Court words, imho, allegedly, caveat emptor.


Quite possible alright.

Sting in the tail en route. Papers lodged shortly.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 19, 2011, 08:39:15 AM
Quote
Our mistake was to place an over reliance on the Irish banking system and the many predictions for continued sustained growth in the Irish economy from some of the country's leading financial services experts," he said.

No recognition of any culpability on his own behalf. He made me do it mammy!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 19, 2011, 11:02:08 AM
As far as I know BB that's pretty up to date. The proposal was drawn up and stress tested along with PWC.

Why do you think it's unrealistic? The figures for the first few years were actually provided by the administers.
Even if it only hit 70% of what it was estimating it would still be a better option for the tax payers than the current deal.  And that's before you take into account job loses etc.

To be honest I think the plan is pretty simplistic and very, very vague.  I understand that in situations such as this applicants think that being vague will help their chances, hoping that the other party will not understand what is going on, but it is the wrong approach in this instance.
For example, it’s page 12 before we find out that Quinn needs €650m from the taxpayer, and even then it’s not exactly highlighted.  That’s after reading all sorts of executive summaries and key points etc etc.  Did they not think that might be a key piece of information?
On that same page the report attempts to get a dig at the regulator by stating that the prevailing view is that his requirements are too stringent.  Evidence accompanying that would be good, it’s not just enough for a report to state that. 

Page 13 mentions how QIL manages to achieve a Combine Operating Ratio of 8.4% below the market average and directs us to page 19 to see how this is possible, as this is probably the main advantage of the QIL proposal as opposed to a third party, I took a look – page 19 is utter waffle.

The forecasted earnings on Page 9 would need some examination, of course forecasts are precisely that, but there are some fairly major assumptions here.
I confess I don’t have much understanding of the figures here, what is the difference in gross written and gross earned premium?  Nor do I understand how they translate to net written and net earned premium.  But the profitability based on net earned premium (which seems to be the key figure) less claims incurred rises every year from 2010 onwards.  From 15% up to 22.5% in 2017, this even though the company envisages growth in net earned premium from 819M in 2011 up to 1114M in 2017, normally companies grow by that sort of multiple by sacrificing profitability and even more so in current market conditions.  Why do they expect premium income to increase by 36%, yet for claims to only increase by 25% - Gay Byrne’s road safety campaign?
Another problem on this page is that admin costs as a percentage of net premium income also drops significantly from 9.9% in 2011 to 8.2% in 2017 (it was 12.1% in the current year, but I’ve disregarded that because presumably UK are still included?), of course a drop in costs like that may be achievable, but there’s nothing indicating why or how that is to be achieved.

At the bottom of the page they note that Deutsche bank (Anglo’s advisers) and their own advisers have reviewed the plan, significantly they don’t even mention who their advisers are or what comments they made on reviewing, given the lack of mention it would appear that they did not want their name on this report in any capacity.

There are more problems with the proposal but I don’t have the time to get into them, in my view the proposal is unprofessional and doesn’t stand up to much scrutiny.
There’s no mention of inflation, of the general economic conditions, of further interest on the 2.8Bn borrowings etc etc.

In my opinion it was written for general public consumption, to try and garner public support in the Cavan/Fermanagh region, this is exemplified by the way they constantly deride the other bid and show how only QIL is really wearing the Green jersey.
This was not a proposal that could be put to government or any lender in today’s climate with the hope of being successful. 

Essentially the Quinn family are asking the state to lend them 650M so that they may retain an asset which if everything goes according to the projections in the report can be sold for 2Bn in 7 years time.  This 2Bn along with the sale of several other assets will realise 2.8Bn which the Quinn family can then use to discharge their debts.

I don’t have anything against the Quinn’s, I have always had a lot of respect for Sean Quinn and his brother, but honestly, how could they have expected the state to do this?  Sure couldn’t any developer or property investor ask the state to lend them a few quid so they could keep up the mortgage repayments whilst they start an alternative business which they would hope they could sell to pay back the combined debt in a few years time.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 19, 2011, 02:10:33 PM
I'd agree that the proposal is optimistic and vague as well. This is a cut down version than what went to the administers, as in dumbed down for the public.

I'll try and do the best I can from what I know about the issues you raised.

The issue about the 650m Euro not been mentioned earlier is prob a case of get in with the positives first. No point starting with the negative first I suppose. Also this money is getting put in by the tax payers regardless. Anglo are stumpting this up for the Liberty deal as well. And it should be mentioned that this money is just to have on the books for solvency and wouldn't be needed to be spent unless in the worst case scenario. I understand the problem with that is that it's 650m tied up here that could be used elsewere and that's a genuine problem.

With regards to the operating profit I agree I don't see where they get this figure from. So agreed that's a pretty big mess up there. But I would have assumed that these figures would be available somewhere. But regardless your right they messed up not giving where this came from.

The forecasting would be an area I'm not strong on at all. I know that the first few years figures were actually supplied by the administers so therefore they seem to think they are realistic.
I can't really comment on most of the rest of your points with regards to these forecasts as I don't have a clue when it comes to accounts like this. Accounts definitely wouldn't be my strong point!!
The reason they expect premium to increase but not claims to the same extent is down to the new pricing structures that has been put in place. They are reducing their reliance on high risk areas such as young drivers which is a area that QD would have targeted in the past. And the admin figure would be standard enough I would have thought, that it decreases per policy with volume?

I can understand the last part with regards to why they should not do this. The problem of the interest is a huge one and one I noticed my self. But in the liberty proposal they are now taking a minority of the profits (As opposed to all of them if it stayed as QD).

I understand there is problems with this proposal. But I still think it was the best one on offer. The one they have entered into now means a shortfall in the debt by about 2B if the papers are right. They might not have liked doing the deal to keep it in Quinn but it was workable and would have given them a better chance of recouping their money. It just looks now like the cure is worse than the disease.

*Disclaimer *
I know I have Quinn tinted glasses on!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 08:02:19 PM
Published on Wednesday 20 April 2011 15:43

DESPITE Government assurances that no jobs will be lost as a result of the Anglo Irish Bank takeover of the Quinn Group, local employees and businesses fear that this is not enough to safeguard their futures.

DESPITE Government assurances that no jobs will be lost as a result of the Anglo take over of the Quinn Group, local employees and businesses fear that this is not enough to safe guard their future.

Last Thursday, April 14 it was announced that the Anglo -Irish Bank/ Liberty Mutual proposal are the preferred option for the future of Quinn Insurance and that Anglo Irish Bank has appointed a share receiver to take control of the majority shares held in the group by the Quinn Family. The rushed decision and the swift move in of administrators to the entire Quinn Group has left many unanswered questions about the future of local jobs in the group.

By Fiona Heavey and Leonie McKiernan

Local Quinn Group employees told the Leitrim Observer “this is terrible news, we will be squeezed down to nothing in less than 12 months, our jobs will be gone, the assurances mean nothing.”

It is understood that a number of large scale Irish contracts were withdrawn from Quinn businesses last Friday morning in protest over the Quinn family ousting. The contracts are believed to have hit Quinn glass and building product businesses and have done little to convince employees about long term job security.

Leitrim TD Michael Colreavy said he remains very concerned for the future of jobs in the Quinn Group. He said important questions remain unanswered in relation to the events of last week. He said the priority must be to safe guard local employment. Colrevy added that he would seek the reasons why anyone would regard Anglo Irish - a zombie, non functioning bank as a suitable institution to maximise the protection of Irish taxpayer funds.

Chairman of the Quinn Jobs Action Forum Tommy Moran from Ballinamore said “It is ridiculous to say there will be no job losses.” He said, “I can’t see them keeping many sectors open that are not profitable.”

He said many branches of the Quinn group were kept going by the group, relying on successful sectors “they were kept alive out of loyalty to the employees.”

So called ‘vulture’ bond holders are being blamed for forcing Anglo’s hand on the Quinn Group debt. The Leitrim Observer has learned that bond holders had sold on their bonds at a substantial loss to companies which specialise in acquiring bonds of companies in difficulty. These so called ‘vulture’ bond holders then put pressure on Anglo Irish Bank to redeem the debt outstanding against the Quinn Group resulting in bank taking over the Quinn family share in the business last Thursday.

To read the full story and for a special report examining what exactly has taken place over the past week and reaction to the take over by Anglo Irish Bank by Sean Quinn himself, his supporters and people locally see this week’s Leitrim Observer.


It seems that there has been a fair few very large irish companies that have pulled the plug on the cement factory and more pledged to follow. And if rumours are to be believed one massive glass contract has also pulled out. Unfortunately I can't see how there won't be job losses as a result of this. Not to mention the value of the companies plummet.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 20, 2011, 10:15:26 PM
It seems that there has been a fair few very large irish companies that have pulled the plug on the cement factory and more pledged to follow. And if rumours are to be believed one massive glass contract has also pulled out. Unfortunately I can't see how there won't be job losses as a result of this. Not to mention the value of the companies plummet.
Quote
Why have large irish companies pulled contracts from cement and glass?  What difference to them who owns the insurance group?  What Irish companies even have large contracts with cement in particular any more?

I think it's obvious that jobs will have to go in cement in particular, I suppose it's how those job losses are structured.  The article implies that whilst cement and glass would be going through rough times regardless, the profitable parts of the group would keep them going out of loyalty - do you believe that?  Sean Quinn didn't build up businesses by allowing loss making sectors to exist, maybe for a year, but these sectors won't be revitalised for a long time.  Surely propping these up would be another another drain on the profits made by QIL which were already earmarked for repaying the Anglo Debt.

I don't want to appear to be constantly picking holes in what your posting SS, but this reeks of more green jersey style spin to me.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on April 20, 2011, 10:40:37 PM
As someone who takes out large contracts for concrete and blocks for a large builder i can guarentee you that personal loyalty to a company is almost unheard of and it boils down to best value for money and comfort the supplier can deliver the contract. If people are pulling contracts id venture its more to do with the fear teh company will cease rather than loyalty to a man/company
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 10:47:02 PM
The irish companies have pulled out as either in loyality to SQ or out of a refusal to deal with Anglo.

Cement and glass are two of the profitable parts of the QG. In fact Glass was the biggest earner for QG after the insurance. It was these areas that were keeping other less profitable areas such as packaging afloat.

By the way I'm not saying that the Quinn deal would have been a great deal for taxpayers. But I do believe it was the best one avaliable to offer any chance of debt recovery and to secure jobs in that area. The option they have taken is going to do neither.   
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 20, 2011, 11:04:53 PM
SS, what is happening the rest of the group other than QIL at this stage?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 20, 2011, 11:18:30 PM
There was directors appointed to certain factories by Anglo over the last few days to take over the running of the companies. I would imagine they will start trying to split them into seperate identies shortly (for instance radiators have people working out of the glass factory and the like). Apart from that there's been little change. I think the plan is to bring consultants in to assess the businesses but don't think that is happening yet. They've settled some of the higher directors and managers and paid them of.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 21, 2011, 12:29:34 PM
There was directors appointed to certain factories by Anglo over the last few days to take over the running of the companies. I would imagine they will start trying to split them into seperate identies shortly (for instance radiators have people working out of the glass factory and the like). Apart from that there's been little change. I think the plan is to bring consultants in to assess the businesses but don't think that is happening yet. They've settled some of the higher directors and managers and paid them of.

Without naming people, can you do a Google on these new directors from Anlgo and tell us are they:

a) career Anglo people;
or
b) professionals parachuted in from reputable (if there any left) financial institutions;
or
c) Healy-Raes, Lowry's, ICTU/IBEC types;

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 21, 2011, 12:39:20 PM
Haven't a clue muppet to be honest. The fiancé works in Quinn radiators so it's her who's keeping me updated on the group but no mentions of who directors are. But I don't think they are Anglo employees (at least I hope not!!)
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 27, 2011, 09:20:37 AM
A protest took place at the quinn offices glad to see the local community supporting him and calling for government change.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13191624
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0426/quinn.html#video
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 27, 2011, 01:00:46 PM
Was at the protest myself yesterday. Was a good turn out considering the short time frame it was organised. I would have said about 1000 at least in the early part of the morning (6.30 - 9.00am) But I think it's a case of pissing in the wind at the minute. Can't see there being a reversal of the decision made but at least a protest was made against Anglo.
A few things did come out yesterday regarding the deal that was struck. (Again this all came out yesterday so I'm taking it at face value. But most of it seemed to come from a signed document from Anglo)

Firstly the promise that no jobs would be lost is a lie. They can let 10% go in the morning if they wish. and if they want to get rid of more than the 10% they just have to apply to the Irish government before letting them go. ( In essence the Irish government through anglo would have to apply to the irish government if they want to cut more than 10% jobs) So there is no promise to keep jobs.
And a similar thing with regards to the selling of the business. We were told orginally that no parts would be sold of within 5 years. Now they are saying that 25% can be sold of without any questions and if they want to sell of more than that they have to apply to the Government again same as the Jobs.

So I think now that these details have come out the local area is extremely scared about the future.

But on a side issue, not really in relevance to SQ anymore, but prob one that is more important to the rest of Ireland and it's tax payers is that the details of the agreement of the Anglo deal with the bondholders has come out. If all the details I heard are true then Anglo are even less competent that I thought!! And that's saying something!! and this is despite them having greater say over the assets than the bondholders.

Firstly despite what had been claimed there was no write of of debt by the bondholders.
The bonds had been trading at less than 50% of their value yet Anglo has agreed to offer a state backed guarantee of 100% recovery of their value plus after full repayment they will still hold a 25% interest in the group.
The interest rate for the bond holders has trebled.
The additional fees for Anglo trying to run the company are 700,000 Euro a week.
Liberty are just taking over the book of QIL not past claims. Therefore no risk or indeed cost on their behalf. Old QIL claims are being paid out of the Compensation fund rather than by Liberty.

It's a very sad time for the people of that area. The GAA clubs were all there in force to show support as well. Indeed Teemore should get the praise for how quickly the rally was organised.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 27, 2011, 08:23:07 PM
Another protest planned for tomorrow from what I hear.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on April 28, 2011, 09:30:02 AM
any more word on tomorrows protest???
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: hsthompson on April 28, 2011, 03:02:03 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on April 28, 2011, 03:20:10 PM
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html)

Some losses
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on April 28, 2011, 09:29:36 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0428/breaking26.html)

Some losses
It's time Sean stopped trying to defend the indefensible, it looks like QIL wasn't quite the cash cow he claims it was.
I'd like to see just what the cause of the losses was in 2009 and 2010, but it seems to me that the administrators have substantially more credibility than Sean Quinn at this stage.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 28, 2011, 11:00:49 PM
I'd be interested in hearing about the losses as well and where it came from. Not saying their not true but I'd like to see a break down of it.

It's personal debt and they could lose everything including the house.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cde on April 28, 2011, 11:05:46 PM
If the Quinn employees around the border want to keep their jobs they would want to start working and stop protesting. It wont take much for the new owners to close the whole plant down and move the jobs to Dublin, they would probably love to have an excuse.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 29, 2011, 12:46:49 AM
Most think that'll happen anyway so wat have they to lose.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on April 29, 2011, 01:47:53 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Cosmo Kramer on April 29, 2011, 11:18:38 PM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?

Exactly, hopefully it was shares in the group. Why should the taxpayer pay for them to have lifelong wealth?

They won't take his house off him regardless of what happens so no chance of him ending up in a council estate.

Out of interest, do the Quinn supporters here realise that he has no support whatsoever outside the border areas? Because of this their protests are unlikely to gain any sympathy from those in control of the situation.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on April 30, 2011, 12:34:01 AM
Sean Quinn seems to be in complete denial about the situation.

If the administrators are only there since last March how can losses from 2009 be their fault?

Also why are accounts for 2009 and 2010 only coming out now?

The insurance business deteriorating seems to be linked to the losses which became apparent in 2008.

It is understandable people are loyal to Sean Quinn but a combination of greed, arrogance and lack of regulation have brought the situation to this point.

Quinn Group should have followed the path of Kerry Group and floated the company and went for steady growth year on year instead of shooting for the stars.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Dougal on April 30, 2011, 12:39:02 AM
massive fire on the mountain in ballyconnell behind his cement factory for the second time in 7 days.not sure if its part of a protest or anything but if it is its getting way out of hand.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2011, 01:18:32 AM
massive fire on the mountain in ballyconnell behind his cement factory for the second time in 7 days.not sure if its part of a protest or anything but if it is its getting way out of hand.

hardly coincidence.

not good.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on April 30, 2011, 01:19:39 AM
Sean Quinn seems to be in complete denial about the situation.

If the administrators are only there since last March how can losses from 2009 be their fault?

Also why are accounts for 2009 and 2010 only coming out now?

The insurance business deteriorating seems to be linked to the losses which became apparent in 2008.

It is understandable people are loyal to Sean Quinn but a combination of greed, arrogance and lack of regulation have brought the situation to this point.

Quinn Group should have followed the path of Kerry Group and floated the company and went for steady growth year on year instead of shooting for the stars.
[/b]

good advice.


But like a lot of sad stories, easy to say this after the event, but a good point nonetheless.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2011, 08:23:59 AM
Quinn family to seek damages from Anglo for losing business
Related
Anglo may recover less than half of €2.8bn owed by Quinn, says Dukes | 30/04/2011
Taoiseach rejects workers’ calls for reinstatement of Seán Quinn | 30/04/2011
In this section »
Growth in economy for 2011 cut by half in latest forecast
Royal marriage sealed with two kisses to crowd's approval
CIARÁN HANCOCK and SIMON CARSWELL

THE FAMILY of Seán Quinn are preparing to take legal action against Anglo Irish Bank seeking damages relating to events over the past two years that led to them losing control of the Quinn group of businesses earlier this month.

It is understood Mr Quinn’s children are planning to issue High Court proceedings in the coming days. The children – Seán jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family but are now set to be taken over by Anglo and the lenders to the group.

As such, any action has to be taken in their names. All of the Quinn children with the exception of Ciara work in businesses in the group.

The bank appointed a receiver over the company’s shares in Quinn Group (ROI) earlier this month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group.

Mr Quinn is not involved in the action directly as he was not a shareholder in the business when it ran into difficulty with Anglo and the Financial Regulator. The family would not comment yesterday.

The action is expected to be taken in the Commercial Court in Dublin, which fast-tracks legal actions involving major business disputes.

The case is to look at the validity of Anglo’s decision to lend the family €2.3 billion to buy shares in the bank, which is owned by the State. The family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

The action will also focus on the legality of the share charges dating back to 2008, which have been used by Anglo’s new management team to effectively take control of the Quinn business empire. The bank was given a charge over the ownership of the group to cover losses on Mr Quinn’s investment in Anglo arising from the bank’s collapsing share price during the financial crisis of 2008.

Further legal proceedings under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator’s decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL). It is not clear if the Quinn children will also take an action against the Financial Regulator-Central Bank, but this is being considered by the family’s legal team.

The family may seek to injunct the sale of QIL to Liberty Mutual and Anglo, which was signed on Thursday. Mr Quinn has previously warned the family would not be able to repay Anglo without the insurer.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on April 30, 2011, 08:39:21 AM
I only have a vague grasp of what's been going on with this fiasco. Would someone give me a brief enough synopsis of what has happened Quinn's empire and what is next for the man himself. I heard this debt is personal debt, surely he won't have to sell the house and everything and end up in a council estate in Enniskillen on the dole?
The rumour was that all the kids got €50M a few years ago - hopefully it was cash and not shares in the group?

????

Why would that be hopefully? Why should we be cheering on the looting of an insolvent company where all the holes have to be plugged by those who had nothing to do with it?

Exactly, hopefully it was shares in the group. Why should the taxpayer pay for them to have lifelong wealth?

They won't take his house off him regardless of what happens so no chance of him ending up in a council estate.

Out of interest, do the Quinn supporters here realise that he has no support whatsoever outside the border areas? Because of this their protests are unlikely to gain any sympathy from those in control of the situation.

there's every chance he could lose the house. At the minute he's been told he has it for 5 years then their taking it of him. The only way that won't happen is if Anglo agree a settlement with him.
Of course the Quinn supporters know that the majority of the support is from the border area. Hardly suprising considering that's the area that will be affected by the changes.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: muppet on April 30, 2011, 11:56:27 AM
Quinn family to seek damages from Anglo for losing business
Related
Anglo may recover less than half of €2.8bn owed by Quinn, says Dukes | 30/04/2011
Taoiseach rejects workers’ calls for reinstatement of Seán Quinn | 30/04/2011
In this section »
Growth in economy for 2011 cut by half in latest forecast
Royal marriage sealed with two kisses to crowd's approval
CIARÁN HANCOCK and SIMON CARSWELL

THE FAMILY of Seán Quinn are preparing to take legal action against Anglo Irish Bank seeking damages relating to events over the past two years that led to them losing control of the Quinn group of businesses earlier this month.

It is understood Mr Quinn’s children are planning to issue High Court proceedings in the coming days. The children – Seán jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family but are now set to be taken over by Anglo and the lenders to the group.

As such, any action has to be taken in their names. All of the Quinn children with the exception of Ciara work in businesses in the group.

The bank appointed a receiver over the company’s shares in Quinn Group (ROI) earlier this month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group.

Mr Quinn is not involved in the action directly as he was not a shareholder in the business when it ran into difficulty with Anglo and the Financial Regulator. The family would not comment yesterday.

The action is expected to be taken in the Commercial Court in Dublin, which fast-tracks legal actions involving major business disputes.

The case is to look at the validity of Anglo’s decision to lend the family €2.3 billion to buy shares in the bank, which is owned by the State. The family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

The action will also focus on the legality of the share charges dating back to 2008, which have been used by Anglo’s new management team to effectively take control of the Quinn business empire. The bank was given a charge over the ownership of the group to cover losses on Mr Quinn’s investment in Anglo arising from the bank’s collapsing share price during the financial crisis of 2008.

Further legal proceedings under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator’s decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL). It is not clear if the Quinn children will also take an action against the Financial Regulator-Central Bank, but this is being considered by the family’s legal team.

The family may seek to injunct the sale of QIL to Liberty Mutual and Anglo, which was signed on Thursday. Mr Quinn has previously warned the family would not be able to repay Anglo without the insurer.


If the Quinns win on those grounds (didn't Mansfield try something similar?) the country will collapse immediately, therefore it won't happen.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 04, 2011, 10:03:55 AM
The Irish Times - Monday, May 2, 2011Insurance fund used to grease wheels of Quinn restructuring
John McManus
Business Editor

NOTHING THAT has surfaced over the last year has done anything to undermine the case for calling time on Seán Quinn’s buccaneering stewardship of Quinn Insurance. The opposite, really.

But that is not the same thing as saying that what happened subsequently was perfect and the outcome that emerged last Thursday was the optimal one.

Anything that results in a claim of €700 million on the Insurance Compensation Fund is a disaster, even in a country more used to counting the costs of its financial failures in billions rather than millions. It’s even more of a disaster when the administrators running the company were telling the High Court last October that no such claim would be made.

Several questions remain unanswered. One is whether the blame for the need to claim now on the fund can be laid directly and entirely at the feet of Seán Quinn. His risk-taking may have put the company on the road to perdition, but did the actions of the administrators once they took over exacerbate things? Quinn himself has queried their provisioning policy. Further light may be shed on this when the company’s full 2009 accounts are published.

Quinn has also raised the issue of whether the claim on the fund arises in part as a result of the horse-trading that took place in order to secure a wider restructuring of Quinn Group, which owes €2.3 billion to Anglo Irish Bank and €1.3 billion to various other banks and bond holders. He was ousted in the process.

Bear in mind here that a levy on other insurance companies – which will be passed on to their customers – does not constitute State aid in the narrow sense.

What is clear is that the bond holders were the king-makers in the Quinn Group restructuring. They have emerged from the mess without having to take any sort of a write-down on their debts.

They also appear to have got improved security over the other Quinn Group assets, and some cash.

The reason they had the whip hand is that they held guarantees over Quinn Insurance’s subsidiaries and the individual manufacturing business. Unless they were prepared to give up these guarantees, then the Government and Anglo Irish Bank’s complicated plan to take control of the business and break it up would be pretty unworkable. Anglo’s hold over the Quinn Group was far weaker than the bond holders’ as it only held the family’s shares in the ultimate parent as security.

The price of the bond holders’ releasing the guarantees was a €200 million payment, some of which will be recycled back into the group.

About €80 million will be made available to the manufacturing group by the banks as a working capital facility, but the remaining €120 million will be directly into the bank and bond holders’ pockets.

The money came from Quinn Insurance in a bit of intragroup financial engineering that Seán Quinn himself would have been proud of.

But the key point is that the assets of the insurance company are reduced by €200 million to the benefit of the bond holders and thus not available to meet its losses. As a result, the claim on the fund will be €200 million greater than it otherwise needs to be, and the whole thing can be seen as an indirect subsidy by other insurers and policy-holders.

One suspects that when the penny drops in this regard with the other insurance companies, who will be levied to meet the demands on the fund – current value €30 million – there may be some unhappiness.

The planned transaction presumably has the approval of the Financial Regulator, who oversees the fund, and again one has to presume he has taken the wider, long-term view. Anglo is also his problem.

It’s worth noting that nobody is calling it a good deal. “It is the best outcome for the Irish economy,” is all the joint administrators could manage.

They claim the compensation fund could have been hit for €1 billion if no sale had been achieved and the fund would have had to meet all the company’s liabilities.

They were also at pains to point out that the jobs of 1,570 people – and the €100 million plus what the company’s activities are worth to the regions in which it operates – have been safeguarded.

The other “win” for the taxpayer is that the wider deal gives Anglo Irish Bank a direct economic interest in the Quinn Group, owning 75 per cent of the remaining business and 43 per cent of the new insurance business. The income from these assets – and their sale – over time may cover the €2.8 billion that Seán Quinn and his family owe the bank, most of which has been written off.

Like most things involving Ireland and its financial institutions, one is left wishing – to paraphrase Bill Clinton’s adviser James Carville – one could be born again as a bond holder.

SO THE GOVERNMENT HAVE TAKEN MONEY FROM QUINN INSURANCE AND PUT IT IN THE QUINN GROUP THATS WHAT THEY PUT QUINN INSURANCE INTO ADMINSTRATION FOR. WHAT A JOKE
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: unitedireland on May 04, 2011, 11:05:11 AM
Key Quto "The money came from Quinn Insurance in a bit of intragroup financial engineering that Seán Quinn himself would have been proud of."
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 17, 2011, 06:12:57 PM
Seán Quinn and his family are preparing legal proceedings over their loss of control of the Quinn Group.

It is understood the action would be against the Financial Regulator and Anglo Irish Bank.
Last month the bank appointed a share receiver to the Quinn Group and Quinn Insurance has been sold to the bank and US group Liberty Mutual.
At the time, Anglo Irish Bank Chief Executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an enormous amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.
Mr Aynsley said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the taxpayer over time.


I gather proceedings were issued on three cases against Anglo.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 17, 2011, 08:28:58 PM
Seán Quinn and his family are preparing legal proceedings over their loss of control of the Quinn Group.

It is understood the action would be against the Financial Regulator and Anglo Irish Bank.
Last month the bank appointed a share receiver to the Quinn Group and Quinn Insurance has been sold to the bank and US group Liberty Mutual.
At the time, Anglo Irish Bank Chief Executive Mike Aynsley said the bank was owed an enormous amount of money by the Quinns, which they were not in a position to repay.
Mr Aynsley said the bank had taken an approach which protected the businesses and paved the way for maximising the repayment of debt to the taxpayer over time.


I gather proceedings were issued on three cases against Anglo.

I suppose they had to do something - doing nothing was not an option.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 18, 2011, 10:47:36 PM
From the Irish times.
The wife and five children of businessman Sean Quinn have lodged a High Court action seeking damages against Anglo Irish Bank over alleged negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.

The damages claim arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of the Quinn group of businesses and is believed to amount to a claim for hundreds of million euro.

In proceedings against Anglo and receiver Kieran Wallace, the family are seeking to overturn the appointment of Mr Wallace by Anglo as receiver over shares held by them in the Quinn Group and various related companies.

They claim that charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd and Quinn Group Prperties Ltd are invalid, uneforceable and of no legal effect.

The appointment of Mr Wallace on April 14th last as receiver over those shareholdings on foot of the disputed charges is also invalid and unenforceable, the family claim. They want orders restraining him acting as receiver and setting aside his appointment.

They also want declarations that undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies are invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia.

The proceedings by Patricia Quinn and her children - Sean jnr, Brenda, Aoife, Colette and Ciara - were lodged in the High Court this week and it is expected an application will be made within weeks to have the case fast-tracked by the Commercial Court. The family are being represented by Brian O’Moore SC, Bill Shipsey SC and Rossa Fanning BL.

The five children are equal shareholders in Quinn Group (ROI), the parent company for the various manufacturing, financial services and leisure businesses that were owned by the family. All of the children except Ciara work in businesses in the group.

Anglo appointed a receiver over the company’s shares in Quinn Group (ROI) last month, taking control of the business with banks and bondholders, who are owed €1.28 billion by the group. The Quinn family owe Anglo €2.88 billion.

Further legal proceedings are under consideration by the family include a possible challenge to the validity of the regulator’s decision in March 2010 to seek the appointment of joint administrators to Quinn Insurance Ltd (QIL).
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 26, 2011, 10:09:38 PM
Couple of things to hit the paper tomorrow with regards to this. Firstly Anglo are to "report" huge losses for Quinn Group for 2010. Be interesting to see where these losses occurred and how much was down to the 30-40m paid to McKillop and the likes.

But in bigger news (but I have no doubt that it will hardly get a mention in the News tomorrow) the first case between Anglo and Quinn was heard in Sweden today. Anglo were trying to bulldoze in on  some foreign properties without the proper paperwork by calling for liquidation of the Quinn companies over there. Anglo were thrown out and control awarded back to Quinn. Not sure of the values of these but you'd be chatting 10's millions anyway.
Anglos ability to drop the ball never fails to astound me. No doubt Anglo will begin to sweat a little now considering the cases lodged by Quinn over here are mostly on the same basis. 
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:29:19 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2011, 10:41:25 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.

How did you get wind of that one mal?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:46:47 PM
In slightly related news, the Cavan Crystal hotel has also gone into receivership.  This will also be announced tomorrow.

How did you get wind of that one mal?

They rang anyone who had booked their wedding there today and told them it was business as usual but that there was going to be this announcement tomorrow.  That's the Russel, Lough Erne and now the Crystal  >:(
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: sammymaguire on May 26, 2011, 10:51:25 PM
Any good cheap wedding deals going on at the minute then??

Heard that the other day alright, got some friends getting married next year but they were telling me it was all hush hush. I think it's a north Monaghan family who own it. Nice little hotel, lacking the grounds around it though.

Sad news with the way things are going for all these well renowned establishments.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: 118cmal on May 26, 2011, 10:53:27 PM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
Well I was right enough. So far no mention of the court case just the reported losses from Anglo. I see these come from the alreadly reported losses from QIL and write down of assets. I'll take them with a ounce or two of salt especially considering that  QG managed to keep gross profit margins in the manufactoring area to 27 % at a time when alot of others were falling on their face. But no doubt they'll make sure that everyone focuses on the alledged losses!!

Quinn Group to post loss of €880m
In this section »

SIMON CARSWELL, Finance Correspondent

QUINN GROUP, the business founded by Seán Quinn, will report an operating loss of about €880 million when the conglomerate’s long-awaited financial results for 2009 – its last year fully under the control of Mr Quinn – are published today.

The group wrote down assets by about €274 million and absorbed a loss of €644 million at its Quinn Insurance subsidiary. The value of properties in the group and some of its industrial plants, including the plastics factory in Mainz, Germany, were written down substantially.

The group – which is involved in cement, building materials and glass-manufacturing – had net liabilities of €192 million at the end of 2009 after taking provisions for related party loans of €951 million.

In a separate development Mr Quinn’s family will apply to have their legal action against State-owned Anglo Irish Bank entered into the fast-tracked Commercial Court list at a hearing on Monday.

Anglo, which intends to vigorously defend the action, is not expected to oppose the move.

Mr Quinn’s wife and five adult children – the shareholders of the Quinn Group – are seeking hundreds of millions of euro in damages over Anglo’s decision to take control of the group last month.

Anglo seized ownership of the group appointing receiver Kieran Wallace of KPMG over the family’s shares in Quinn Group (ROI), the firm at the top of the group.

The bank has installed its own directors and management to lead the business, freezing Mr Quinn out of the running of the group.

The figures to be published today will show that the group’s manufacturing turnover fell 28 per cent in 2009, reflecting the collapse in the construction sector. Heavy cost-cutting kept gross profit margins at 27 per cent.

Overall turnover at the group including Quinn Insurance, fell to €1.6 billion in 2009 from €2.3 billion a year earlier when the group made a profit of €83 million.

The turnover within the manufacturing business – which will form the core part of the group following the sale of Quinn Insurance – was €654 million in 2009 and €658 million last year, according to draft accounts for 2010. Turnover within this business remained broadly in line last year with the 2009 performance.

The group’s overall turnover fell to €939 million in 2010 as only the first quarter turnover of €281 million at Quinn Insurance was included in the 2010 figures.

Joint administrators were appointed to the insurer on March 31st, 2010, amid the Central Bank’s concerns about its solvency. Losses at the insurer will lead to a call of €600 million on the State’s Insurance Compensation Fund to be recouped by a levy on all non-life insurance policies.

The filing of the group’s 2009 results was delayed for more than a year due to the delay in the sign-off of Quinn Insurance’s 2009 financial statements by auditors PricewaterhouseCoopers as a result of the administration.

The 2010 financial statements are expected to be finalised within the next three to four months.

The administrators agreed to sell Quinn Insurance to State-owned Anglo Irish Bank and US insurer Liberty Mutual last month.

Earnings before interest, tax and write-offs of depreciation costs and amortisation (Ebitda) – a measure of cash generated – totalled €104 million in the manufacturing business for 2009.

Under last month’s restructuring, Anglo is taking 75 per cent ownership of the group, with the banks and bondholders taking the remaining 25 per cent.


 
 
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Kerry Mike on May 27, 2011, 09:22:38 AM
Quote
They rang anyone who had booked their wedding there today and told them it was business as usual but that there was going to be this announcement tomorrow.  That's the Russel, Lough Erne and now the Crystal 


Got the same call yesterday from the Cavan Crystal, we have them booked for next year, will have to wait and see how it pans out.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: FarneyMan on May 27, 2011, 09:31:31 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on May 27, 2011, 10:01:05 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........

Couldn't see it, given the amount of mone required to start again.


But given the hikes in premium, it would be a welcome move.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Declan on May 27, 2011, 10:03:43 AM

Quinn reveals 'hugely disappointing' losses of €852m
Friday, May 27, 2011 - 09:14 AM



The Quinn group lost €852m in 2009, the company announced this morning.

The losses mainly relate to Quinn Insurance Limited (QIL), which is under administration, and which incurred operating losses of €644m during 2009.

Turnover at QGL (including QIL) amounted to €1.6bn in 2009, down from €2.2bn in 2008.

The chief executive of QGL Paul O’Brien described the numbers as "hugely disappointing".

Net assets for the group’s continuing manufacturing operations were €149m in 2009, compared to €392m the previous year.

"Following the appointment of administrators to the QIL business in March 2010, the insurance business is no longer part of our continuing operations.

"I would like to wish the new owners of QIL every success in their efforts to restore the business to full strength and thereby protect the jobs in that business.

"The future of our group now lies in our manufacturing businesses, which are involved in container glass, construction products, plastics & packaging and radiators across a number of jurisdictions."


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/quinn-reveals-hugely-disappointing-losses-of-852m-506633.html#ixzz1NXecOXDA
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on May 27, 2011, 11:56:36 AM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Whats the problem, it the hotels are sucessful and well run they will sold off as a going concern? Would they not be better off having the badge of failure associated with Quinn?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
No idea Sammy.  Yeah very sad indeed.  I've been at a few weddings in the Crystal and I couldn't fault them.  As you say there is very little ground around it but the food and service was excellent.
Whats the problem, it the hotels are sucessful and well run they will sold off as a going concern? Would they not be better off having the badge of failure associated with Quinn?

These aren't Quinn Hotels Ludermor. Crystal and Lough Erne are stand alone hotels in the area. I think the people are just pointing out how things are getting tougher in that border area these days.

Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........

 :D

This seems to be the worst kept secret in history.

 :-X
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: ludermor on May 27, 2011, 04:26:29 PM
Apologies 2+2=5!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 27, 2011, 04:39:56 PM
No worries. Easy assumption to make given the thread title!!
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on May 30, 2011, 07:46:06 PM
From the Times


The family of businessman Seán Quinn have brought Commercial Court proceedings claiming that loans of about €2.34 billion made by Anglo Irish Bank to various Quinn companies and Cypriot-registered companies are unenforceable because they were issued for “an illegal objective of market manipulation” — support of the Anglo share price.

The action by Mrs Patricia Quinn and her five children — Aoife, Colette, Brenda, Ciara and Seán Quinn Jnr — arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of companies in the Quinn group.

Mr Justcie Peter Kelly transferred the case yesterday to the Commercial Court. It involves the largest ever claim in the court’s seven year history and is likely to be heard early next year.

Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit the plaintiffs signed personal guarantees in late 2008 over certain loans by Anglo to Cypriot-registered companies owned by the family without being told of the “precarious” financial position of Anglo. They had no independent legal or financial advice and the nature of the loan documents was never discussed with them, she said.

The lending by Anglo to various Quinn companies and to the Cypriot companies, whether directly or via other companies held by members of the Quinn family, “was in support of an illegal objective of market manipulation” prohibited by the relevant EU Directive on Market Abuse, she said.

The lending was “tainted with illegality, or was intended to support an illegal purpose, such that the said loans are not enforceable”.

On those and other grounds, the family claim Anglo was not entitled last month to appoint Kieran Wallace as receiver over shares in several Quinn group companies. They also claim the bank cannot pursue them under the guarantees for repayment of the loans to the Cypriot companies.

They also claim they are entitled to hundreds of million Euro in damages as a result of the actions of the bank. They allege negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.

While unable at this point to give the precise value of the damages claim, Aoife Quinn said the consolidated gross sales of Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd was €2.116 billion in the period to December 31st 2007, with profits of €453 million, and the business was “a substantial going concern”.

The net assets of that company was reported in its statutory accounts at some €753 million in December 2007, she added.

Yesterday, Mr Justice Kelly was told Anglo was consenting to the family’s action being fast-tracked in the Commercial Court.

The judge noted none of the guarantees provided for the Anglo loans were dated while copy documents of two personal guarantees in the names of Aoife Quinn and Seán Quinn Jnr over certain loans by Anglo to companies registered in Cyprus were unsigned.

When he asked Paul Gallagher SC, for Anglo, whether the original guarantee documents were signed, Mr Gallagher said he understood the documents were in order but he would make inquiries. Counsel added his side would consider whether to join Seán Quinn himself and others as third parties to the action.

The judge observed the case is likely to last several weeks and made directions for the exchange of legal documents with a view to having the case heard early next year.

In seeking transfer, Brian O’Moore SC, for the Quinns, said his side were contending various loans by Anglo to a number of Quinn companies and the Cypriot companies involved an unlawful support of the Anglo share price.

In her affidavit, Aoife Quinn said the action was brought in the plaintiffs’ capacity as owners of shares in several companies, including Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding and Quinn Group Properties Ltd.

The family was claiming charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in those Quinn companies were invalid, unenforceable and of no legal effect.

They also wanted declarations that the undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies were invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia.

Outlining the background, Ms Quinn said Bazzely Consultadori Economica E Particpacoes, a Madeira-incporporated company owned by the Quinn children, made investments of some €750m from Quinn resources to fund CFD (contracts for difference) positions in Anglo prior to the end of 2007.

After September 2007, as Anglo’s share price declined, it advanced some €2.34 billion to various Quinn companies, she said. Those advances were made in the full knowledge they were only to be used to support “CFD positions” in relation to Anglo shares and those shares were ultimately held by the children.

On October 7th 2008, about €77.17 million loans were granted to each of five Cypriot registered companies owned by the Quinn children while Eu102 million loans were made to another Cypriot company owned by Mrs Patricia Quinn, Aoife Quinn said. Those loans were then used by the Cypriot companies to buy shares in Anglo.

Ms Quinn said personal guarantees were executed about October 2008 related to those loans. She said the plaintiffs, when they were asked to sign the execution blocks to the personal guarantees, did not know and were not made aware the guarantees were “a purported condition” of the advance of the loans.

The personal guarantees and share pledges were “manifestly improvident” and/or “unconscionable” when executed because they were entered into in the context of borrowing to support Anglo’s share price in circumstances where Anglo, its servants or agents, knew of the “precarious financial position” of Anglo but the plaintiffs did not, she said.

There was a significant lack of autonomy on the part of the Quinn plaintiffs in the circumstances surrounding the signing of the guarantees and share pledges, she said. In all the circumstances, Anglo was not entitled to appoint Mr Wallace as share receiver.

Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 02, 2011, 05:01:28 PM
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/this-is-still-quinn-country-a-year-after-local-hero-got-the-boot-2663788.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 02, 2011, 05:15:50 PM
The first article that actually mentions the court case in Sweden between Anglo and Quinn. I wonder why none of the rest of the papers mentioned much about it considering the impact it could have on Anglo and therefore the state!!
 
[Quinn family claim Anglo loaned money for illegal objective
 Print |  Email
Swedish court rules in favour of Quinn

Sean Quinn.
Loans of about €2.34 billion by Anglo Irish Bank to Quinn companies are unenforceable as they were issued for the "illegal objective of market manipulation" to support of the Anglo share price, claimed the Quinn family in proceedings which were this week transferred to the Commercial Court.
The action in Ireland comes after Quinn and his family won a court decision in Sweden last week, in which the dismissal of directors of Quinn Investments Sweden (QIS) by a receiver appointed by Anglo Irish Bank was overturned. The Stockholm District Court found that the dismissal of QIS directors and their replacement with Kieran Wallace of KPMG was not "duly approved by all shareholders" and was therefore invalid.
This week's action in the Irish courts by Mrs Patricia Quinn and her five children - Aoife, Colette, Brenda, Ciara and Sean Quinn Jnr - arises from events of the past two years that led to the family losing control of companies in the Quinn group.
Mr Justice Peter Kelly transferred the case on Monday to the Commercial Court. Aoife Quinn said in an affidavit the plaintiffs signed personal guarantees in late 2008 over certain loans by Anglo to Cypriot-registered companies owned by the family without being told of the "precarious" financial position of Anglo. They had no independent legal or financial advice and the nature of the loan documents was never discussed with them, she said.
The lending by Anglo to various Quinn companies and to the Cypriot companies, whether directly or via other companies held by members of the Quinn family, "was in support of an illegal objective of market manipulation" prohibited by the relevant EU Directive on Market Abuse, she said.
The lending was "tainted with illegality, or was intended to support an illegal purpose, such that the said loans are not enforceable".
On those and other grounds, the family claim Anglo was not entitled last month to appoint Kieran Wallace as receiver over shares in several Quinn group companies. They also claim the bank cannot pursue them under the guarantees for repayment of the loans to the Cypriot companies.
They further claim they are entitled to hundreds of million Euro in damages as a result of the actions of the bank. They allege negligence, breach of duty and intentional and/or negligent infliction of economic damage.
While unable at this point to give the precise value of the damages claim, Aoife Quinn said the consolidated gross sales of Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd was €2.116 billion in the period to December 31, 2007, with profits of €453 million, and the business was "a substantial going concern".
The net assets of that company was reported in its statutory accounts at some €753 million in December 2007, she added.
Yesterday, Mr Justice Kelly was told Anglo was consenting to the family's action being fast-tracked in the Commercial Court.
The judge noted none of the guarantees provided for the Anglo loans were dated while copy documents of two personal guarantees in the names of Aoife Quinn and Sean Quinn Jnr over certain loans by Anglo to companies registered in Cyprus were unsigned.
When he asked Paul Gallagher SC, for Anglo, whether the original guarantee documents were signed, Mr Gallagher said he understood the documents were in order but he would make inquiries. Counsel added his side would consider whether to join Sean Quinn himself and others as third parties to the action.
In seeking transfer, Brian O'Moore SC, for the Quinns, said his side were contending various loans by Anglo to a number of Quinn companies and the Cypriot companies involved an unlawful support of the Anglo share price.
In her affidavit, Aoife Quinn said the action was brought in the plaintiffs' capacity as owners of shares in several companies, including Slieve Russell Hotel Ltd, Quinn Quarries Ltd, Quinn Group (ROI) Ltd, Quinn Group Hotels Ltd, Quinn Finance Holding and Quinn Group Properties Ltd.
The family was claiming charges made in favour of Anglo from late 2003 up to 2009 over shares held in those Quinn companies were invalid, unenforceable and of no legal effect.
They also wanted declarations that the undated guarantees provided by them to Anglo over the liabilities of several Cyprus-registered companies were invalid and unenforceable. Those companies are Lud Investments Ltd, Moshaid Investments Ltd, Opawa Investments Ltd, Pahu Ltd, Tarate Enterprises Ltd and Morboneto Holdings Ltd, all with registered offices at Capital Centre, Nicosia./sup]
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on June 03, 2011, 12:16:20 AM
Any of ye hear the rumour about Quinn starting out afresh in the Insurance business again..........ive heard a new company is being setup in Belturbet, "Q2", and alot of the old directors\managers are onboard........
Had heard this as well. Some of the directors have been spotted around vacant offices in Belturbet. Supposedly Elliotts have an insurance licence that they are going to use.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on June 18, 2011, 04:36:08 PM
Things still going strong with the court cases over in Sweden.

Anglo not getting it all their own way from the sound of it!

From the times.
ANGLO IRISH Bank is entitled to just €129 million from a property company in Sweden controlled by Seán Quinn’s family, lawyers for the family argued yesterday.

Anglo wants a bankruptcy receiver appointed to Quinn Investments Sweden, the holding company for the family’s international properties in Sweden, Britain, Russia, Turkey, Ukraine and India.

The receiver would have the power to liquidate the company, a major entity in the Quinn Group, and sell its properties. Together they are estimated to be worth about €500 million.

Anglo however is only entitled to claim the amount of the loans provided specifically to Quinn Investments from the Anglo funds – about €129 million, lawyers for Quinn Investments told the Stockholm district court.

Although Anglo’s guarantee on the loans included all Quinn companies, under Swedish law, firms could only guarantee loans they gained from in principal, they said.

In a sale process that could take as little as three months, Quinn Investments Sweden could raise €344 million through the sale of properties in Russia, more than enough to cover the amount it owed Anglo, lawyers for Quinn Investments said.

For that reason, they argued, the company could not be declared insolvent and since the €129 million was properly secured, the bank could not seek a liquidation.

Richard Woodhouse, the Anglo executive in charge of negotiating the loan repayment with the Quinn family, offered a lower estimate for the value of Quinn Investments assets at between US$380 and $400 million and said a sale process would take “considerable time”. “In my view, liquidation of satisfactory value would take 18 months to three years,” he said in testimony. “It is possible to sell at an accelerated basis but at a lower value than I quote.”

Lawyers for Quinn Investments will present an expert on Russian real estate to the court when the proceedings resume on Tuesday.

Mr Woodhouse added that the debts in question were “absolutely valid and overdue for payment”.

The Quinn family owes Anglo almost €2.9 billion, of which €2.3 billion relates to loans that covered the losses on Anglo shares as a result of the 2008 financial crash. Lawyers for Quinn Investments say the loans must be proven valid before any amount can be claimed.

The Quinns claim the loans were advanced under the “false guise” of property lending when in reality they were used to cover losses on the family’s investment in Anglo shares. Those investments were made through contracts for difference, a type of leveraged bet on the bank’s share price.

Anglo contracts: how they worked 

FOR THE first time in open court, a Quinn executive yesterday outlined how the loans from Anglo to cover losses on stock market investments were obtained.

Former finance director Dara O’Reilly said the use of contracts for difference began in the autumn of 2005 and involved investments in financial services companies, oil companies and some airlines, including Ryanair.

By early 2007, worldwide equity markets were under pressure and the share price of Anglo deteriorated. At first, the losses or margin calls on Anglo investments were financed by Quinn resources.

However, when those resources became “extremely limited”, the group began to cover the debts with loans from Anglo, a practice that became more frequent.

Mr O’Reilly would contact the manager at Anglo and give a “rough calculation” of how the margin call had been determined.

Documents were drawn up stating “property development “ as the purpose of the loan and Mr O’Reilly would then obtain the necessary signatures so the funds could be transferred, he said.

“When I rang the bank on a very frequent basis in 2008, it was very clear it was for margin calls.”


Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: orangeman on June 27, 2011, 11:49:35 PM
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0627/anglo.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Orangemac on August 10, 2011, 07:55:14 AM
This protest seems to be getting out of hand. Surely this is not employees, what would they think this was acheiving?

Could there be dissidents involved in this as part of some "anti-capitalist" campaign?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/quinn-chief-targeted-in-arson-attack-wont-be-intimidated-2844149.html
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 08:28:26 AM
Just can't see what they think they will achieve with this? It's not going to help things in the long run and things are grim enough without all this happening.
That said I'd cry no tears for POB. He was one of the main men in organising the whole take over at a time when he was meant to be working for SQ. He did enough to ensure he would be sitting pretty at a time when most other in the company were still fighting to get a resolution to keep SQ involved. And trust me he's been well looked after by Anglo for "work done" during the take over that the cost of a new car won't make a dent in that.

It would be his family that I'd feel sorry for.

I see Anglo turned done an offer to purchase parts of the company there by a few Ex Directors including Liam McCaffery. They would have been as well to get rid of it as they're running it into the ground at the minute. Know ones who work in both the Cement and Raditors and they are saying it's like a morgue. People struggling to find work to do and sales hitting the floor. They seem to reckon that Anglo's hand will be forced as they can't allow it to continue the way it's going. They've already had to take a £40Million loan out to keep the companies afloat.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on August 10, 2011, 10:29:56 AM
.

I see Anglo turned done an offer to purchase parts of the company there by a few Ex Directors including Liam McCaffery. They would have been as well to get rid of it as they're running it into the ground at the minute. Know ones who work in both the Cement and Raditors and they are saying it's like a morgue. People struggling to find work to do and sales hitting the floor. They seem to reckon that Anglo's hand will be forced as they can't allow it to continue the way it's going. They've already had to take a £40Million loan out to keep the companies afloat.

I have been told that they are going as well as they have ever been and thats from current workers.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Franko on August 10, 2011, 01:53:41 PM
Jesus that must be tough for you!  My sincerest condolences.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Bogball XV on August 10, 2011, 02:10:49 PM
Well my Fiance works in Raditors and sister in law works in the weighing bay in cement and both are dead. The only one holdings it's own is Glass.
The cement is really tailing of. Despite what Anglo are spouting some customers have stopped dealing with them altogether.
I think I said this before SS, but with the economy the way it is and especially the construction (or lack of) industry, how could these companies not be in bother regardless of ownership?
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: supersarsfields on August 10, 2011, 03:14:34 PM
I've nevered said that they wouldn't be struggling Regardless BB. Which is exactly why losing a couple of customers now is a bigger problem than if they were doing well.

  Very good Franco. :-))
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: tommysmith on August 10, 2011, 03:16:56 PM
Well my Fiance works in Raditors and sister in law works in the weighing bay in cement and both are dead. The only one holdings it's own is Glass.
The cement is really tailing of. Despite what Anglo are spouting some customers have stopped dealing with them altogether.

Oh i think it was the glass that the person i was talking to may have been on about.
Title: Re: Quinn Insurance in Administration
Post by: Lone Shark on September 14, 2011, 11:56:52 AM
http://www.thejournal.ie/government-proposes-levy-on-insurance-policies-to-pay-for-quinn-bailout-226031-Sep2011/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/government-proposes-levy-on-insurance-policies-to-pay-for-quinn-bailout-226031-Sep2011/)

Nothing really new in