There seems to be a large scale disappointment in Armagh about the negativity of their football this year.
The question is, did this style of football this year stem from Peter McDonnell's management, or is it so ingrained in the longstanding core of players that he had no choice but to work within this system?
In other words, are McDonnell's teams known for negativity, or is it just the way Armagh deign to play?
No doubt that its a carry over from the Kernan era, and Mc Donnell felt that it didnt need tinkered with in any great way.
This system of play wouldnt have been features of any of the club sides that he has managed or the county u-21's
Quote from: thewobbler on August 25, 2008, 02:01:26 PM
In other words, are McDonnell's teams known for negativity, or is it just the way Armagh deign to play?
now wobbler i know Ballyholland are goin really bad dis year, but jayus u must be very bored if ur startin a topic about the style of armagh football....i think u have plenty of food for thought if u look at your own county first and foremost ;D ;D ;D
He managed our club (Armagh Harps) a few years ago and I cant remember any real style of play, but it wasn't overly defensive in nature.
My own opinion on this year is that knowing he'd big boots to fill he didn't want his first year to be a disaster and he managed cautiously because of this. I think some of the older players didn't take to him and he'd be better off with a few retirements and he can progress with the rebuilding job
I think a lot of people in the County saw the Ulster Title win as a bonus that they could not have expected back in April. There was an acceptance that we are not near All Ireland level. People therefore, on balance, would have been pleased at what was achieved.
However on reflection, it has become clear that our defensive style of play should have seen us get beaten against Down and Fermanagh the first day, before it went tits up totally against Wexford. Looking back now, I reckon that Armagh are - man for man - better than Wexford and that sitting back so deeply simply handed the initiative to the opposition and consequently lost the match. I find myself asking was this a deliberate tactic? It surely must have been because it simply was a re-enactment of the Down and Fermanagh (1) games. Wexford got a goal at the ideal time, and was something that Fermanagh were threatening in the draw. If Fermanagh had have managed the second goal that day, they would undoubtedly have beaten us.
I think the reactions though from the players in the media, and indeed talk of internal disquiet, do appear to point to a deliberate policy of sitting back - playing negative / defensive football - that ensured that Armagh's year was not as successdful as it could have been. May of the Senior players appear to have taken serious issue here. The Tyrone performance against Dublin highlighted to many in Armagh just how negative and full of fear our play was.
Why was there such a reliance on defence? Under Seosamh Mor, I don't believe we were as defensive as this year. Many conclude that the shadow of Big Joe still hangs over the squad and 'influences' management thinking, including the direction of the team. I wonder though was the conservatism brought about by the manner in which things fell for Armagh during the year, i.e. Monaghan, Derry and Tyrone all took a spill, suddenly leaving the way open for Armagh to get a totally unexpected Ulster title, and at that stage it was safety first all the way, and we consequently won it despite ourselves?
Could we merge maybe a number of these once a week angst ridden armagh threads. And call it "soul searching for apple munchers"
Quote from: feetofflames on August 25, 2008, 04:09:46 PM
Could we merge maybe a number of these once a week angst ridden armagh threads. And call it "soul searching for apple munchers"
Wobbler - you're now an honorary Armagh man! :P
I can feel your pain! ;D
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 25, 2008, 03:57:37 PM
Looking back now, I reckon that Armagh are - man for man - better than Wexford and that sitting back so deeply simply handed the initiative to the opposition and consequently lost the match. I find myself asking was this a deliberate tactic?
I've asked this question before. When armagh withdrew a half forward to make 7 defenders, what should armagh have done?
Mc Donnell managed Errigal Ciaran a few years ago, 4 or 5, and it was anything but defensive football.
Quote from: Uladh on August 25, 2008, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on August 25, 2008, 03:57:37 PM
Looking back now, I reckon that Armagh are - man for man - better than Wexford and that sitting back so deeply simply handed the initiative to the opposition and consequently lost the match. I find myself asking was this a deliberate tactic?
I've asked this question before. When armagh withdrew a half forward to make 7 defenders, what should armagh have done?
I assume the idea of playing defensively was to ensure that we protected what lead we had, i.e. suffocate the opposition, turn over the ball and counter attack. The moment though when we withdrew a half forward (Vernon) and replaced him with a defender (Donaghy) was absolutely mystifying, as we were down by two or three, chasing the game and desperately needed to get the ball forward. I was at a complete loss to explain that, as evidenced by my crazed outburst from the lower Cusack! :-\
were armagh "defensive" before that substitution?
Quote from: Uladh on August 25, 2008, 08:21:09 PM
were armagh "defensive" before that substitution?
I'm not sure what you're getting at Uladh, but the straight answer to that, in my opinion, would be yes. I thought that the bulk of our team were lying in much deeper positions than would be the case if were playing an orthodox 1-15 selection, i.e. three in each line of defence and attack with two in midfield. That's why our attackers were outnumbered inside their fifty, with the result that we had many attempts at points that were long range / speculative, whilst the points we did get, particularly from Stevie and Clarke, were brilliant efforts, under pressure, from acute angles.
By the time the goal went in, trying to change the balance / mindset of the team was too late - just like the Fermanagh draw, the trend of the game was set and it was too late to do anything about it. That's why, after the Wexford goal, I can recall one instance of Clarke getting a ball, thirty five yards out with his back to the Wexford goal, and only Stevie for company and about five defenders for company.
On the basis of what I have just said, you could argue that it wouldn't have made any difference who was substituted at that stage, as it was not going to make a difference - and I would tend to agree. Yet to throw in a defender for an attacker at that point defied logic.
Is this the first time that the words Peter McDonnell and Style have been used in the same sentence?
Quote from: Down Gael on August 25, 2008, 08:59:43 PM
Is this the first time that the words Peter McDonnell and Style have been used in the same sentence?
At least you got his name right this time, what's the problem, does your woman fancy him or something ???
Trust you to make a snide comment, there is no style involved when Armagh play. Its dour, dire, crude, a struggle. I will admit that its effective, but I think thewobbler is the first man ever to manage to put those words in the same sentence. Sadly you cant really comment on Armaghs style of play, or Kerrys or even the Dubs for that matter, you dont go to any games, your life seems to revolve around Big Brother, the internet and making snide comments. You seem like a really nice person :D
Quote from: thewobbler on August 25, 2008, 02:01:26 PM
There seems to be a large scale disappointment in Armagh about the negativity of their football this year.
The question is, did this style of football this year stem from Peter McDonnell's management, or is it so ingrained in the longstanding core of players that he had no choice but to work within this system?
In other words, are McDonnell's teams known for negativity, or is it just the way Armagh deign to play?
Not sure. The only other team of McDonnell's i've seen were the u21s from last year and they were fairly attack minded. In fact they nearly tended to try and walk the ball into the net at times. As Rufus suggests there could be an element of playing safe in the first year in charge as there wasn't a noticeable difference in style to the last few years. The disappointing thing is that Armagh do have players with a bit of pace who can get forward and track back as needed. McKeever and Kernan can attack from the back and Vernon and Mallon have the pace and fitness to get forward and track back. But for some reason we didn't see enough of this.
Quote from: Down Gael on August 25, 2008, 09:08:43 PM
Trust you to make a snide comment, there is no style involved when Armagh play. Its dour, dire, crude, a struggle. I will admit that its effective, but I think thewobbler is the first man ever to manage to put those words in the same sentence. Sadly you cant really comment on Armaghs style of play, or Kerrys or even the Dubs for that matter, you dont go to any games, your life seems to revolve around Big Brother, the internet and making snide comments. You seem like a really nice person :D
::) It always has to get personal with you.
You simply cannot comment on Armaghs style of play, you dont go to the games. Nothing personal, just an observation. Maybe you should get out more, stop taking on-line personality tests, you need a personality to do that :D
Quote from: Down Gael on August 26, 2008, 12:25:00 AM
You simply cannot comment on Armaghs style of play, you dont go to the games. Nothing personal, just an observation. Maybe you should get out more, stop taking on-line personality tests, you need a personality to do that :D
Yeah I've no life/personality etc- haven't heard that in a hour ::)
anyway, that's two comments you've made about McDonnell now and I didn't read your last one as just being football related so I was wondering what the issue was?
From memory, armagh played with 6 orthodox defenders against wexford. the forwards seemed to be configured with 4 of them out and out "inside the 50" as you guys like to term it with o'rourke and vernon working up and down wherever they were needed. o'rourke seems to concentrate his energies covering lads, winning ball and making tackles while vernon doesn't really seem to do either forward or back - certainly he didn't against wexford. o'rourke and vernon were marked wherever they went so that means it was 5 wexford defenders against 4 out and out armagh forwards "inside the 50". at the other end, both Kernan and McNulty followed their men to the middle (on top of the half forward who withdrew into defence), so that left 4 armagh defenders against 3 out and out wexford forwards "inside the 50".
that is the nature of every intercounty game these days. it is a question of what happens inthe middle third when you have the ball and when you haven't. for example, ytrone are more extreme defensively than armagh but they atack like men posessed whenthey win the ball back (usually by crowding opponents out).