There a number of posters who train teams. During the game on Saturday, we saw that players were surrounded by 3/4/5 players who did not foul the person with the ball. Very disciplined. How does the player with the ball get out of this? Should the rule about charging be amended to give the surrounded player some hope?
Trainers out there, what do you tell your players? If there a number of players surrounding one, there must be other free players? Have not seen any teams that have any plan to combat this.
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2008, 11:38:03 AM
There a number of posters who train teams. During the game on Saturday, we saw that players were surrounded by 3/4/5 players who did not foul the person with the ball. Very disciplined. How does the player with the ball get out of this? Should the rule about charging be amended to give the surrounded player some hope?
Trainers out there, what do you tell your players? If there a number of players surrounding one, there must be other free players? Have not seen any teams that have any plan to combat this.
Don't get into that situation. To many poor passes and holding on to the ball to long gets you into this sticky situation. Get rid of the ball early and don't play a pass to someone who will be surrounded by the time he controls it or turns to face the gaol. Prevention is better than the cure.
Quote from: Zapatista on August 18, 2008, 11:44:11 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2008, 11:38:03 AM
There a number of posters who train teams. During the game on Saturday, we saw that players were surrounded by 3/4/5 players who did not foul the person with the ball. Very disciplined. How does the player with the ball get out of this? Should the rule about charging be amended to give the surrounded player some hope?
Trainers out there, what do you tell your players? If there a number of players surrounding one, there must be other free players? Have not seen any teams that have any plan to combat this.
Don't get into that situation. To many poor passes and holding on to the ball to long gets you into this sticky situation. Get rid of the ball early and don't play a pass to someone who will be surrounded by the time he controls it or turns to face the gaol. Prevention is better than the cure.
That's 100%. You rarely get Tyrone players caught in that situation, although Davey can be a wee bit prone to it. Unless there's space, don't dally on the ball. If you are caught you simply need to release the ball though the melee of legs and just hope it'll be picked up as you're only going to give away a demoralising free anyway.
Fair enough, but what about a midfielfder who has just caught a kick-out from the goalkeeper and he's immediately surrounded?
Quote from: The Gs Man on August 18, 2008, 12:04:12 PM
Fair enough, but what about a midfielfder who has just caught a kick-out from the goalkeeper and he's immediately surrounded?
Definitely a problem although I've noticed most teammates now give the fielder instant options when he lands, offering immediate assistance to receive the ball, maybe even standing shoulder-to-shoulder. How often this year did we see McGrane off-load to a runner within a split-second of catching the ball. With Tyrone not really having a regular fielder in recent years, this crowding development has suited them more than others.
Just had a thought. Should the referee not blow it up as a two man tackle?
Was that rule just an old wives tale or what is the actual rule? I have noticed that this type of tactic is used a lot and referees do not seem to give a free easily.
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2008, 12:18:18 PM
Just had a thought. Should the referee not blow it up as a two man tackle?
Was that rule just an old wives tale or what is the actual rule? I have noticed that this type of tactic is used a lot and referees do not seem to give a free easily.
Standing close to someone with your arms out is not a tackle.
QuoteJust had a thought. Should the referee not blow it up as a two man tackle?
Was that rule just an old wives tale or what is the actual rule? I have noticed that this type of tactic is used a lot and referees do not seem to give a free easily.
My understanding is that it is only free if two players trying to actively dispossess a member of the opposing team - i.e. try to knock the ball from his grasp. Its perfectly legal for as many players as possible to simply block off the space for the man in possession so long as only one is trying to dispossess him at any one time.
As mentioned above, the only way to counteract good defending like this is not to allow the situation to develop in the first place. After all, if there are 4 or 5 men in close proximity to the man with the ball, the players marking these men should be trying to make themselves available for a pass into space.
Didn't the Kerry CB chairman call for a rule change in relation to this after taking a huff when they got beat a few years back?
Great pictue in the Irish Sun today. Bonner on his knees with the ball and Sherlock crouching over him, all surrounded by 5 Tyrone players. Bonner was going nowhere.
Denn,
The best way to get out of it is for the surrounded player to launch himself groundward and pop ball out between a defender's legs. Replicate this in a drill by throwing a hi ball to a player who is set upon by 3-4 tacklers. When surrounded he should dive for ground hpassing out. Support players should be aware to get in close to the ruck.
How many times in this situation do you see teammates standing 5-6 yards away hoping for free to be given?
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2008, 12:18:18 PM
Just had a thought. Should the referee not blow it up as a two man tackle?
Was that rule just an old wives tale or what is the actual rule? I have noticed that this type of tactic is used a lot and referees do not seem to give a free easily.
Play rule 1.6 states
1.6 Player(s) may tackle an opponent for the ball.
My understanding of this is you could have 15 players tackle and it wouldnt be a foul. That said it wouldnt surprise me if this was completely contradicted somewhere else in the rules
Dig a hole.
drop the ball and kick it out of the 'ruck'
Google Maps.
tell team to play the ball out between legs of opponents towards their own goal.
If everyone is aware of this then increases chances of keeping possession
I believe the guys that run the ball into trouble were ruining the game for years, their refusal to think faster and move the ball faster detroys Gaelic Football as a spectacle. I love seeing the Tyrone lads get around a lonely and greedy ball runner and play bumpin' cars wth them, Who will ever forget the 2003 ai semifinal - a scene of wonder. If these mooches want to run the ball like rugby league throw them iin amongst the bumpin' cars - Its all a headless chicken will ever deserve on the pitch.
Quote from: Rav67 on August 18, 2008, 02:27:52 PM
Didn't the Kerry CB chairman call for a rule change in relation to this after taking a huff when they got beat a few years back?
Aye Sean Walsh. Embarrassing (I would imagine, if they have such an emotion there?), but if they were good losers they wouldn't win so feckin much.
Player with the ball in hand has an such a big advantage in football over the tackler that if he allows himself to get surrounded then tough, free out! For the midfielder the ref will give him the benefit in a lot of cases and I wouldn't realy argue with that too much. Introduce a mark, but only from the kick-out? Don't think we need to go that far.
Quote from: Rav67 on August 18, 2008, 02:27:52 PM
Didn't the Kerry CB chairman call for a rule change in relation to this after taking a huff when they got beat a few years back?
He did indeed, and he was the same boy who came out with the ballix about restoring pride in the game of football when kerry won in 2004 ... Mr Motivator we bushmen call him
Alot depends also on the ref !! Some refs could lose their bottle when one of those situations arises and give the foul to the player in possession.
Saw that happening to Tyrone alot post 2003!!
I don't think the issue here is the legal or illegallity of the tackling, more the consistency of referees. Tyrones crowding, which I very much appreciated, would have been blown up by many referees.
Quote from: Denn Forever on August 18, 2008, 11:38:03 AM
There a number of posters who train teams. During the game on Saturday, we saw that players were surrounded by 3/4/5 players who did not foul the person with the ball. Very disciplined. How does the player with the ball get out of this? Should the rule about charging be amended to give the surrounded player some hope?
Trainers out there, what do you tell your players? If there a number of players surrounding one, there must be other free players? Have not seen any teams that have any plan to combat this.
First of all in practically all of these situations the player in possession is being fouled. Armagh introduced this and Tyrone perfected it where a swarm of players inflict a series of physical blows to a player when most of them cant even see the ball. That's foul play and has shamed our game and should be booted out. Nobody seems prepared to highlight this on TV.
Secondly the high catch at midfield usually results in a tackle on the man before he hits the ground - again a foul.
Thirdly a simple rule of advantage to a highfielding player would eliminate this midfield issue and protect a great skill.
Do we have a rules over-seer who can review these issues after major games and get referees trained oin that basis?
As long as no one player fouls then as many as they want can surround a player, that to me is good defending. If however as Leo suggests at least one of them is fouling then it should always be penalised. Too often though fans shout fould because four or five men are tackling/surrounding but none of them are actually fouling
Quote from: Gaffer on August 18, 2008, 05:46:38 PM
Alot depends also on the ref !! Some refs could lose their bottle when one of those situations arises and give the foul to the player in possession.
Saw that happening to Tyrone alot post 2003!!
That is true to an extent. The referee has so much leeway in football that he can blow frees for things that offend his concept of aesthetic as opposed to things that break the rules.
QuoteDefinitely a problem although I've noticed most teammates now give the fielder instant options when he lands, offering immediate assistance to receive the ball, maybe even standing shoulder-to-shoulder. How often this year did we see McGrane off-load to a runner within a split-second of catching the ball. With Tyrone not really having a regular fielder in recent years, this crowding development has suited them more than others.
It is quite sad that Tyrone have singlehandely attempted to destroy the art of high fielding because they dont have players good enough to perfect the art. Its all well and good to say "we will play to our strengths" but what about all this underage coaching we here about in Tyrone. Why can they not coach players to do this ? Perhaps they dont see it as a valuable skill.
What is even sadder is that they are proud of it.
The day you hear lads talkng about trying to handpass the ball between the legs of a ruck of players is a sad day for football.
So are you saying that Tyrone should play the way that suits Kerry?
You play the game according to the rules and how you play it after that is up to you!
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 07:27:04 PM
QuoteDefinitely a problem although I've noticed most teammates now give the fielder instant options when he lands, offering immediate assistance to receive the ball, maybe even standing shoulder-to-shoulder. How often this year did we see McGrane off-load to a runner within a split-second of catching the ball. With Tyrone not really having a regular fielder in recent years, this crowding development has suited them more than others.
It is quite sad that Tyrone have singlehandely attempted to destroy the art of high fielding because they dont have players good enough to perfect the art. Its all well and good to say "we will play to our strengths" but what about all this underage coaching we here about in Tyrone. Why can they not coach players to do this ? Perhaps they dont see it as a valuable skill.
What is even sadder is that they are proud of it.
The day you hear lads talkng about trying to handpass the ball between the legs of a ruck of players is a sad day for football.
Well Dublin only managed one more clean catch than Tyrone on Saturday...or do you blame Tyrone for this?
QuoteSo are you saying that Tyrone should play the way that suits Kerry?
No. I just think it is sad that this great skill is dying out all because some teams who cant master it decide to stop it at all costs.
I found it very interesting around the time of the International rules. It has become apparent that the only way to compete in that game is to
move more and more toward the Aussi rules game. That might be ok but even the art of high-fielding so prevalent in Aussie rules isnt a factor in the
compromize rules.
Thats what its like in Gaelic football. Teams that cant play it the way its meant to be played are continuously forcing us to deemphasize the core skills of Gaelic football in order to compete in this new bastardized form of Gaelic football. In fact the sneering attitude of some northern contributors toward the traditional skills is very disheartening.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 07:47:58 PM
QuoteSo are you saying that Tyrone should play the way that suits Kerry?
No. I just think it is sad that this great skill is dying out all because some teams who cant master it decide to stop it at all costs.
I found it very interesting around the time of the International rules. It has become apparent that the only way to compete in that game is to
move more and more toward the Aussi rules game. That might be ok but even the art of high-fielding so prevalent in Aussie rules isnt a factor in the
compromize rules.
Thats what its like in Gaelic football. Teams that cant play it the way its meant to be played are continuously forcing us to deemphasize the core skills of Gaelic football in order to compete in this new bastardized form of Gaelic football. In fact the sneering attitude of some northern contributors toward the traditional skills is very disheartening.
..like passing and scoring, and taking frees. The only elemant of the game in which Dublin dominated Tyrone in any manner at all on Saturday was the breaking ball.
You're completely missing the point. It's not that players cannot field the ball any more. It's that the game has moved on in terms of athleticism, fitness and tactics that players don't now sit, qawk and admire a clean field by an opposing player. You now need to use quickness of thought and off-load or else it'll be a turn-over. It took Tyrone to teach Kerry that lesson in 2003. They did learn it and it's simply down to Mickey Harte and Tyrone that Kerry have now managed to bring their game up to the notch required in the modern era. Their hammerings in 2001, 2002 and 2003 happened no more. You should be thankful.
Successful teams play to the strength of the players they have at hand. With a player like Donaghy up front, of course Kerry will play the high ball in.
Tyrone are playing to a system that wins them games and that what it is all about.
Pre 1990's when Ulster teams were rarely getting to an All Ireland Final, all we could do was to admire those teams who did and won All Irelands. We did not have the audicity to criticise the way those teams played.......Kerry's blanket defence in the 1986 Final against Tyrone is a good example.
So its just envy which causes the southeners to have a go at the northerners for coming up with a method which enables them to land an All Ireland!!!
QuoteYou're completely missing the point. It's not that players cannot field the ball any more. It's that the game has moved on in terms of athleticism, fitness and tactics that players don't now sit, qawk and admire a clean field by an opposing player. You now need to use quickness of thought and off-load or else it'll be a turn-over. It took Tyrone to teach Kerry that lesson in 2003. They did learn it and it's simply down to Mickey Harte and Tyrone that Kerry have now managed to bring their game up to the notch required in the modern era. Their hammerings in 2001, 2002 and 2003 happened no more. You should be thankful.
Tyrone never have, and never will, teach Kerry anything about Gaelic football. They simply demonstrate the lengths negative footballing counties will go to to stop us playing. They get lucky every now and then as we adapt, Down in the 60's and Armagh and Tyrone in the modern era being a case in point.
We all know how much these sides resent not getting the "credit" they feel they deserve but if you will never get that respect as long as you continue to destroy our once beautiful game.
At the end of the day, as long as we are successful up here, we couldnt give two hoots about Kerry s lack of respect.
2002 and 2003 are bitter pills for Kerry to swallow.
Just accept that it happened and move on!!
Tis great to see the poor Kerry fans like Mike beginning to get worried about Tyrone again. Sure enough the negative/ puke spakes only come out when their starting to get worried.
But don't panic just yet Mikey sure Wexford could put manners on us first and put your mind to rest.
hrrrumph......you'll never be aristocrats of the game as you are doomed to a life of football peasantry...the water carriers that sometimes manage to bludgeon your way to an AI.
Quote from: supersarsfields on August 18, 2008, 08:18:44 PM
Tis great to see the poor Kerry fans like Mike beginning to get worried about Tyrone again. Sure enough the negative/ puke spakes only come out when their starting to get worried.
Was thinking that myself. They thought the All Ireland was in the bag until last Saturday!!!
QuoteBut don't panic just yet Mikey sure Wexford could put manners on us first and put your mind to rest.
Oh, whats this...? Now ye are starting to get worried about Wexford...didn't seem that way yesterday after the greatest performance of all time ::) ::)
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 08:21:18 PM
hrrrumph......you'll never be aristocrats of the game as you are doomed to a life of football peasantry...the water carriers that sometimes manage to bludgeon your way to an AI.
Aww sure we all have to accept our fate just scrapping for the titbits that fall from the Kingdoms table.
QuoteSure enough the negative/ puke spakes only come out when their starting to get worried
Nonsense, I have been consistent in my fight against the Tymoan hordes and their systematic campaign to convert Gaelic football to rugby league
QuoteAww sure we all have to accept our fate just scrapping for the titbits that fall from the Kingdoms table
The fare might be a bit rich for your tastes..I suggest you watch Kerry's Golden years starting with short bursts with progressively longer periods. By the time you reach the '86 AI your "puke football" sensibilities may be ready for the exposure to the supreme exhibition of pure football by Spillane and co.
Mike Sheehy ! You're panicking !!!
You need to watch the 1986 All Ireland .
Pure blanket defence by Kerry. Hardly kicked the ball. They played basketball the whole match. Kerry Globetrotters more like.
How did you own Paudie O'Shea describe the Kerry supporters?
mike get a life son....tryone put on an exibition of how gaelic football should be played on saturday in atrocious conditions scoring all but 1 point from play and at the same time limiting this supposedly brilliant dublin forward line to a few mesely scores.their defending was excellant with brilliant organisaton and textbook tackling.these are also skills of gaelic football
theres all this talk about how there's no defined tackling in gaelic,watch a video of saturdays match and you'l see a couple of brilliant examples (including whealen on holmes may i add).
regarding this crowding round a player......what the hell do u want a defender to do when his teammate has him bottled up,walk away just?????thers nothing wrong with standing around a player in possession and keepin him boxed in.if done right (which it was by tyrone) then its not fouling unless they are all slapping the player trying to get the ball.
and this isnt being all high and mighty after saturday either cos i still dont think tyrone are good enough to win the AI but your mouthing stinks of fear and bitterness.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 08:28:30 PM
QuoteAww sure we all have to accept our fate just scrapping for the titbits that fall from the Kingdoms table
The fare might be a bit rich for your tastes..I suggest you watch Kerry's Golden years starting with short bursts with progressively longer periods. By the time you reach the '86 AI your "puke football" sensibilities may be ready for the exposure to the supreme exhibition of pure football by Spillane and co.
I don't have a tape player anymore, do they have that on DVD? Surprising how shite this stuff is when you look back on it. Golden Years me balls, you just had a team that was professionally fit playing basketball.
Quoteand this isnt being all high and mighty after saturday either cos i still dont think tyrone are good enough to win the AI but your mouthing stinks of fear and bitterness
Typical Tyone tactic. Resort to geralizations like this to stifle any debate. You lads always want to bring down the tone of the debate just like you bring down football games to your level.
QuoteI don't have a tape player anymore, do they have that on DVD? Surprising how shite this stuff is when you look back on it. Golden Years me balls, you just had a team that was professionally fit playing basketball.
You are just jealous no-one remembers that Tyrone team yet that Kerry team are immortal.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 08:58:15 PM
Quoteand this isnt being all high and mighty after saturday either cos i still dont think tyrone are good enough to win the AI but your mouthing stinks of fear and bitterness
Typical Tyone tactic. Resort to geralizations like this to stifle any debate. You lads always want to bring down the tone of the debate just like you bring down football games to your level.
;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
Debate he says, the biggest and bitterest WUM on the site! ;D
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 08:59:47 PM
QuoteI don't have a tape player anymore, do they have that on DVD? Surprising how shite this stuff is when you look back on it. Golden Years me balls, you just had a team that was professionally fit playing basketball.
You are just jealous no-one remembers that Tyrone team yet that Kerry team are immortal.
Immortal in Kerry maybe, I'm sure most young lads up and down the country today just think Pat Spillane is an eejit and a spoofer. Few would realise that in his day he was a competent half-back.
QuoteFew would realise that in his day he was a competent half-back.
He wasnt at half back when he buried Tyrone hopes with that wonder-goal. You have never produced a player that would
be worthy of lacing the bould Pat's boots.
.
[/quote]
Immortal in Kerry maybe, I'm sure most young lads up and down the country today just think Pat Spillane is an eejit and a spoofer. Few would realise that in his day he was a competent half-back.
[/quote]
And he wasn't bad at full-back either!!!!!
that wonder-goal.
.
[/quote]
There was only one wonder=goal at Croker !! MUGSY'S!!!!!!
And Spillane can lace his own feckin' boots
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:05:08 PM
QuoteFew would realise that in his day he was a competent half-back.
He wasnt at half back when he buried Tyrone hopes with that wonder-goal. You have never produced a player that would
be worthy of lacing the bould Pat's boots.
I honestly don't remember that goal. The days of Kerry burying Tyrone's hopes are long gone my friend. Reach up to those 2 chips on your shoulder if you need reminding.
QuoteDebate he says, the biggest and bitterest WUM on the site!
You must be kidding, you have got that backwards...its a case of one Kerryman against 100's of jealous, bitter Tymoanie WUM's constantly having a go at the mighty Kingdom and our unparalled record.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:08:33 PM
QuoteDebate he says, the biggest and bitterest WUM on the site!
You must be kidding, you have got that backwards...its a case of one Kerryman against 100's of jealous, bitter Tymoanie WUM's constantly having a go at the mighty Kingdom and our unparalled record.
Fair play to you taking the time to edumacate us.
Noticable that none of your fellow county supporters are coming to your help in this debate!!!
QuoteI honestly don't remember that goal.
Yeah, you're probably one of these lads who think football was invented in 2002. You're as bad as the Armagh lads. Between ye, the historical chips on ye're shoulders when it comes to Kerry are unreal.
QuoteNoticable that none of your fellow county supporters are coming to your help in this debate
They know that one Kerryman is enough to handle you lightweights.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:08:33 PM
QuoteDebate he says, the biggest and bitterest WUM on the site!
You must be kidding, you have got that backwards...its a case of one Kerryman against 100's of jealous, bitter Tymoanie WUM's constantly having a go at the mighty Kingdom and our unparalled record.
I suppose i am Jealous
I am not bitter
I am not from Tyrone
I am not a Wum
I am not having a go at Kerry
..i hope that the weather is nice in your world...it is raining where i am...however i am sure that where you are it is not rain, but just nourishment for the little plants.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:14:24 PM
QuoteNoticable that none of your fellow county supporters are coming to your help in this debate
They know that one Kerryman is enough to handle you lightweights.
What a laugh!!! Thats what the Kerry manager said to his players before All Ireland Semi 2003
Quote..i hope that the weather is nice in your world...it is raining where i am...however i am sure that where you are it is not rain, but just nourishment for the little plants.
Look, I know you had a good win on Sunday but lay off the drugs. Just stick with the celebratory pints.
and whats with the stupid beard growing fad. Its like they are the anti-spice boys..instead of wearing white suits they grow beards.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:13:27 PM
QuoteI honestly don't remember that goal.
Yeah, you're probably one of these lads who think football was invented in 2002. You're as bad as the Armagh lads. Between ye, the historical chips on ye're shoulders when it comes to Kerry are unreal.
Wait I remember it now, was it the superman dive one? 22 years is a long time. Your namesake got one too right (the footballer that is not the WUM?)
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:18:35 PM
Quote..i hope that the weather is nice in your world...it is raining where i am...however i am sure that where you are it is not rain, but just nourishment for the little plants.
Look, I know you had a good win on Sunday but lay off the drugs. Just stick with the celebratory pints.
Must be you on the old dope, Mike. The match was on SATURDAY!!!!
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 09:18:35 PM
Quote..i hope that the weather is nice in your world...it is raining where i am...however i am sure that where you are it is not rain, but just nourishment for the little plants.
Look, I know you had a good win on Sunday but lay off the drugs. Just stick with the celebratory pints.
WTF..what win?. My team did not play over the weekend.
He s on the dope Bulwinkle!! His mind's all over the place. Just read his posts!!
To me surrounding a player who dallies and catching him in posession is also a skill of the modern game and it takes discipline to perfect. As a defender I admire these qualities in the Tyrone team. They are a team who defend and attack together and to achieve this skill at any time can be just as inspirational as a high catch, a good score or a brave block in my opinion. It is a credit to gaelic football that the likes of Micky Harte can develop ways of nullifying their opponents. To me it simply adds to the spectacle as it did on saturday in what was a highly entertaining match!
I hope the Kerry faithful are not a mirror image of yer eejit Sheehy on here. If so, they're seriously in panic mode. No need to be, we mightn't get by the Model.
Quote from: ONeill on August 18, 2008, 10:49:07 PM
I hope the Kerry faithful are not a mirror image of yer eejit Sheehy on here. If so, they're seriously in panic mode. No need to be, we mightn't get by the Model.
And we've a load of injuries ;)
Quote from: ONeill on August 18, 2008, 10:49:07 PM
I hope the Kerry faithful are not a mirror image of yer eejit Sheehy on here. If so, they're seriously in panic mode. No need to be, we mightn't get by the Model.
Which reminds me..Mike, kust in cse you have forgotten where it is since you were there last September, here is a map to Croke Park:-
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=croke+park&sll=53.376775,-6.2677&sspn=0.17081,0.42572&ie=UTF8&t=h&z=15
Jones Road was a bit flooded last weekend, so if there is rain again bring your wellies.
QuoteI hope the Kerry faithful are not a mirror image of yer eejit Sheehy on here. If so, they're seriously in panic mode. No need to be, we mightn't get by the Model.
I hope the Tyrone faithful are not a mirror image of yer eejit O'Neill. If so they're seriously in baldy bollix mode.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 18, 2008, 08:11:32 PM
QuoteYou're completely missing the point. It's not that players cannot field the ball any more. It's that the game has moved on in terms of athleticism, fitness and tactics that players don't now sit, qawk and admire a clean field by an opposing player. You now need to use quickness of thought and off-load or else it'll be a turn-over. It took Tyrone to teach Kerry that lesson in 2003. They did learn it and it's simply down to Mickey Harte and Tyrone that Kerry have now managed to bring their game up to the notch required in the modern era. Their hammerings in 2001, 2002 and 2003 happened no more. You should be thankful.
Tyrone never have, and never will, teach Kerry anything about Gaelic football. They simply demonstrate the lengths negative footballing counties will go to to stop us playing. They get lucky every now and then as we adapt, Down in the 60's and Armagh and Tyrone in the modern era being a case in point.
We all know how much these sides resent not getting the "credit" they feel they deserve but if you will never get that respect as long as you continue to destroy our once beautiful game.
FFS, go and get laid or something, man you talk some muck >:(
Quote from: Minus15 on August 18, 2008, 10:10:14 PM
To me surrounding a player who dallies and catching him in posession is also a skill of the modern game and it takes discipline to perfect. As a defender I admire these qualities in the Tyrone team. They are a team who defend and attack together and to achieve this skill at any time can be just as inspirational as a high catch, a good score or a brave block in my opinion. It is a credit to gaelic football that the likes of Micky Harte can develop ways of nullifying their opponents. To me it simply adds to the spectacle as it did on saturday in what was a highly entertaining match!
you have to be joking !
does all this stuff in our game of 3 or 4 men surrounding a player not look a bit girlie to be honest, something like a schoolyard game or something !?
i dont think this can continue for much longer and a rule has to be brought in to prevent it. MOST IMPORTANTLY and to start the ball rolling (and I've been saying this for a longtime now) that the midfielder especially needs some kind of protection on a kickout -ie...if a clean catch is made then then 1 player ONLY should be allowed to make a challenge after he fields it......if it continues where a midfielder does make a spectacular catch and suddenly he is surrounded to be quickly followed up by a free against him then our game is suffering bigtime. I wont be paying though the gates to watch this sh1te.
is 2 players tackling any man not plenty ?! once a third man comes in blow them up to fcuk and give the man in possession some advantage !!
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 08:25:14 AM
you have to be joking !
does all this stuff in our game of 3 or 4 men surrounding a player not look a bit girlie to be honest, something like a schoolyard game or something !?
i dont think this can continue for much longer and a rule has to be brought in to prevent it. MOST IMPORTANTLY and to start the ball rolling (and I've been saying this for a longtime now) that the midfielder especially needs some kind of protection on a kickout -ie...if a clean catch is made then then 1 player ONLY should be allowed to make a challenge after he fields it......if it continues where a midfielder does make a spectacular catch and suddenly he is surrounded to be quickly followed up by a free against him then our game is suffering bigtime. I wont be paying though the gates to watch this sh1te.
is 2 players tackling any man not plenty ?! once a third man comes in blow them up to fcuk and give the man in possession some advantage !!
That is a rediculous sugestion.
some real thickos on here. Jeez Kerry men looking to change the rules again every decade they get squeezed out they look for rule changes. If I weas the real Mike Sheehy Id be looking for that cub to give him a trimming. The old boy must be cringing at him.
The rules dont need changing, but I can see the fear in the kerrymen already.
Quote from: feetofflames on August 19, 2008, 11:11:55 AM
some real thickos on here. Jeez Kerry men looking to change the rules again every decade they get squeezed out they look for rule changes. If I weas the real Mike Sheehy Id be looking for that cub to give him a trimming. The old boy must be cringing at him.
The rules dont need changing, but I can see the fear in the kerrymen already.
They are even worse losers than Down supporters, and that's really saying something!
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 08:25:14 AM
Quote from: Minus15 on August 18, 2008, 10:10:14 PM
To me surrounding a player who dallies and catching him in posession is also a skill of the modern game and it takes discipline to perfect. As a defender I admire these qualities in the Tyrone team. They are a team who defend and attack together and to achieve this skill at any time can be just as inspirational as a high catch, a good score or a brave block in my opinion. It is a credit to gaelic football that the likes of Micky Harte can develop ways of nullifying their opponents. To me it simply adds to the spectacle as it did on saturday in what was a highly entertaining match!
you have to be joking !
does all this stuff in our game of 3 or 4 men surrounding a player not look a bit girlie to be honest, something like a schoolyard game or something !?
i dont think this can continue for much longer and a rule has to be brought in to prevent it. MOST IMPORTANTLY and to start the ball rolling (and I've been saying this for a longtime now) that the midfielder especially needs some kind of protection on a kickout -ie...if a clean catch is made then then 1 player ONLY should be allowed to make a challenge after he fields it......if it continues where a midfielder does make a spectacular catch and suddenly he is surrounded to be quickly followed up by a free against him then our game is suffering bigtime. I wont be paying though the gates to watch this sh1te.
is 2 players tackling any man not plenty ?! once a third man comes in blow them up to fcuk and give the man in possession some advantage !!
If there are 2 men tackling 1 man then that means there is another man free somewhere, give the ball to the free man. End of problem. If you try to take too much out of the ball and get bottled up tough, you should have passed it earlier. Meath used to be experts and bottling a player up in the 90's as well when a player hesitated on the ball. Tyrone where exceptional yesterday scoring 3-14, with some exceptional scores, you can't score 3-14 if you are defending all the time.
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 19, 2008, 12:44:21 PM
you can't score 3-14 if you are defending all the time.
It's the best form of defence ;)
i'm talking first and foremost about players who make a big catch here (liken it to the mark if you want in aussies rules, all i'm suggesting is that no more than one man should be allowed to put in a challenge on that player - the high catch is the whole ethos of gaelic football, its what makes our game great to watch, its what i want to see when i pay in to watch the best players playing gaelic).
the point some are trying to make is that if 4 men are surrounding 1 man then there should be 3 other free men available to him. what sort of a pass can he make in that situation, sure he cant even stretch out his arm to handpass it. its too easy to pounce on a man as he's landing afer making a fine catch....so you think he should be penalised because he cant make a pass with 4 men on him ?!
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:10:07 PM
i'm talking first and foremost about players who make a big catch here (liken it to the mark if you want in aussies rules, all i'm suggesting is that no more than one man should be allowed to put in a challenge on that player - the high catch is the whole ethos of gaelic football, its what makes our game great to watch, its what i want to see when i pay in to watch the best players playing gaelic).
the point some are trying to make is that if 4 men are surrounding 1 man then there should be 3 other free men available to him. what sort of a pass can he make in that situation, sure he cant even stretch out his arm to handpass it. its too easy to pounce on a man as he's landing afer making a fine catch....so you think he should be penalised because he cant make a pass with 4 men on him ?!
You are starved of good football if you think it boils down to great catches.
The catch is still a great part of the game and will continue to be. Any player who is a great fielder of a ball is automatically at an advantage no matter how it is defended against.
why is it i am continuously saying to myelf, "that hurling game today was brilliant", "that was a poor game of football" ?
the hurling is free flowing, end to end stuff
we see v little of that in football.
something needs to be done.....i'll be honest here and say here now that if my county team were part of a fantastic game of football and lost i'd be happy.....if they part of a brutal game of football and won i'd be feeling alright.
yous know yourselves that the end to end stuff and a proper quality football is what we want to see.....
there are plenty of techincal areas within the game that can be improved on but i dont think this all-out defence tactic can continue.
fair enough there are situations in general play where a player does get himself tied up and the other team should take advantage of that...
what i think should be done is something to help more freedom of movement for a player who fields a good ball.
i dont know.....its each to their own....but i know that if the defensive tactic does get any worse than it is now, i'll not be goin to many more games
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:10:07 PM
i'm talking first and foremost about players who make a big catch here (liken it to the mark if you want in aussies rules, all i'm suggesting is that no more than one man should be allowed to put in a challenge on that player - the high catch is the whole ethos of gaelic football, its what makes our game great to watch, its what i want to see when i pay in to watch the best players playing gaelic).
the point some are trying to make is that if 4 men are surrounding 1 man then there should be 3 other free men available to him. what sort of a pass can he make in that situation, sure he cant even stretch out his arm to handpass it. its too easy to pounce on a man as he's landing afer making a fine catch....so you think he should be penalised because he cant make a pass with 4 men on him ?!
I agree 100% with you Abble, the high catch is a skill that should be rewarded on the field of play not penalised. And while refs now generally give the fielder a free I think it would be worth experimenting with the 'mark' for a clean catch from a kickout.
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
why is it i am continuously saying to myelf, "that hurling game today was brilliant", "that was a poor game of football" ?
the hurling is free flowing, end to end stuff
we see v little of that in football.
something needs to be done.....i'll be honest here and say here now that if my county team were part of a fantastic game of football and lost i'd be happy.....if they part of a brutal game of football and won i'd be feeling alright.
yous know yourselves that the end to end stuff and a proper quality football is what we want to see.....
there are plenty of techincal areas within the game that can be improved on but i dont think this all-out defence tactic can continue.
fair enough there are situations in general play where a player does get himself tied up and the other team should take advantage of that...
what i think should be done is something to help more freedom of movement for a player who fields a good ball.
i dont know.....its each to their own....but i know that if the defensive tactic does get any worse than it is now, i'll not be goin to many more games
Once more we find ourselves in agreement Abble, a few years ago rugby changed a number of rules to make the game more free flowing and it has made the game far more entertaining, as anyone who watches rugby gold on Tg4 will vouch for. Good defending is great to see but simply getting everyone behind the ball to suffocate an attacking team is not great defending and can make some football games difficult to watch.
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
why is it i am continuously saying to myelf, "that hurling game today was brilliant", "that was a poor game of football" ?
Prob because you are a hurling fan rather than a football fan. I say it about many sports. I would rather watch football than the Olympics as I am a football fan.
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
the hurling is free flowing, end to end stuff
we see v little of that in football.
Hurling is that. It is very different to football. The ball alone should show that. It is very different catching a ball with one hand and fireing it 70 yards up the field for forwards to scramble for than to catch a bigger ball with two hands and actually need the time to find the best place to put it. If a football made a great catch and turned to thump it 50 yards up the field in the hope that his forwards would win it he would be a poor footballer.
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
something needs to be done.....i'll be honest here and say here now that if my county team were part of a fantastic game of football and lost i'd be happy.....if they part of a brutal game of football and won i'd be feeling alright.
I do not share your priorities. If they always played brutal football I might think different but my county often play fantastic football and win.
Quote from: Abble on August 19, 2008, 01:28:18 PM
yous know yourselves that the end to end stuff and a proper quality football is what we want to see.....
there are plenty of techincal areas within the game that can be improved on but i dont think this all-out defence tactic can continue.
fair enough there are situations in general play where a player does get himself tied up and the other team should take advantage of that...
what i think should be done is something to help more freedom of movement for a player who fields a good ball.
i dont know.....its each to their own....but i know that if the defensive tactic does get any worse than it is now, i'll not be goin to many more games
Perhaps we should widen the post to reduce wides or remove gaol keepers to increase goals? Or if a player beats 3 defenders all other play should stop to make sure he finishes with a score? Leave the game alone. High fielding is a grat part of the sport (and an advantage to those who do it well) and so is defending against it.
This is ridiculous answering some of you twats but heres my solution and my only solution. That the charging rule in Garlic Games is done away with. You cant lead with the elbow but you can walk out with her, and walk over anyone wjo stands in your road, would solve a lot of the 3rd man tackling too.
QuoteThis is ridiculous answering some of you t**ts but heres my solution and my only solution
So people who don't share your opinion are t**ts, is that it feetofflames? While I don't agree with Abbles assertion that most hurling games are fantastic, in fact many hurling games this year have been very poor but hurling is being reffed in such a way as to encourage a more free flowing game. Football is not being reffed in the same way and the tactics that many teams are now employing results in more fouls and fewer decent scoring chances. Football will find it hard to grow in non-traditional areas if those people can't even sit down and watch the game at the top level. This 'it's all about winning' argument is bullshit, sport always has to be about more than just winning otherwise it will become a soulless experience.
Tyrone beat Dublin off the park. With great scores and great passing and movemnet. There was hardly any 3rd man tackling in the game and the refs DO normally give the free to the forward if there is a 3rd man tackle and they are moving forward, they where just better at shooting, passing, blocking, handling. Any criticism is just jealousy. The only way some people on this foum would be happy is for the northern team to be beaten by the southern team. Nothing else. No matter if Tyrone scored 200 points in the match there would still be peole complaining about there negative tactics. Negative tactics = good defending. Ultimately every coaches objective is for there team to score a bucket load (good shooting) and there defenders to stop the forwards from scoring (good defending). Tyrone mastered both in this game.
Not to mention only 1 score from a free.
I'd like to see Dara and Donaghey stop trying to catch the ball as they are left at a disavantage becuase of it. I love to see how many games Kerry win with such a tactic. ::)
To be honest I think in the majority, refs give a free to the person with the ball. Which is fair enough. But I don't agree that just because a couple of players gather around a player there should be an automatic free. To me this wouldn't help the game either as it would encourage players to run into tackles rather than moving a swift ball at distance.
I mean have we really seen that much of the "swarming" around players this year? I can remember only a couple of instances with Tyrone. So it's not as if it's epidemic.
If a mark was introduced I don't know if it would be have that big an effect. The majority of balls from kickouts are broken down anyway rather than this idea of catching the ball and then getting bottled up. So for me these clean catches only happen a few times each game and won't stop the bottling of the broken ball anyway. So I can't see them having that big an impact if introduced.
The ability of players all over the park, to get to the area of the play and cover space without needless fouling should be applauded.
Shows great hunger, fitness and discipline.
Completely legitimate aspect of team play which should encourage the player in possession to act quicker with the ball, ultimately speeding up the tempo of a game.
Would the teammates of the player who's surrounded be allowed go in and shoulder some of the surrounding players out of the way?
Cant see why not, as long as its legitimate shoulder to shoulder.
Positioning of 3/4 defending players around the man in possession often leaves it difficult for a square on shoulder tackle to be executed.
QuoteAny criticism is just jealousy. The only way some people on this foum would be happy is for the northern team to be beaten by the southern team. Nothing else.
For Christ sake would you give over with the paranoia, criticism of a style of play doesn't equal jealousy of that teams achievements and anyway this thread isn't about Tyrone (or any other team) specifically, it is about the swarm defence. This discussion has nothing to do with Ulster V the rest and it would help if people didn't keep trying to turn it into one.
What people need to realise is that when there are 4/5 men tackling one, there are 3/4 men on the team of the player in possession free and un marked. Surely the onus is on the player in possession, and his team mates to use some speed of though/hand/foot and lay the ball off to a free man when the chance arises before they are set upon by a swarm of players. How come Tyrone rarely get caught like this? Maybe its because they prepare for it - and take advantage of the situation when it arises.
Puckoon, Tyrone do get caught by swarm defence when it is employed by other teams, as WM did this year. If teams get 13 or 14 players back into their own half with most of them filling up the central corridor then it is nigh on impossible for any team to avoid getting sucked in when trying to create a scoring opportunity.
Quote from: Puckoon on August 19, 2008, 05:29:58 PM
What people need to realise is that when there are 4/5 men tackling one, there are 3/4 men on the team of the player in possession free and un marked. Surely the onus is on the player in possession, and his team mates to use some speed of though/hand/foot and lay the ball off to a free man when the chance arises before they are set upon by a swarm of players. How come Tyrone rarely get caught like this? Maybe its because they prepare for it - and take advantage of the situation when it arises.
In fairness everyone says this but it's not so easy in reality to find a loose player when you are surrounded and being buffeted by 4 or 5 opposition players at the same time. It's very difficult to get a clean hand-pass away let alone try to swing a boot at the ball.
Of course people say a player shouldn't get in that position in the first place but it's not always the fault of the opposition player that he gets surrounded. He could be picking up a loose pass or diving on a loose ball and before he knows it he's surrounded.
Personally I don't like to see the whole surrounding of players. It just looks ugly IMO. It looks like a ruck outside a chipper on a Saturday night. I don't think it's a particularly big problem in the game though.
Kick shins. Hard and often. The referee won't see it, it'd be the last thing he'd expect, you can pretend it was an attempt to kick the ball and you'll probably get the free anyway. And they won't surround you again in a hurry.
I like the hole-digging approach. Or a blow-torch.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 19, 2008, 06:07:13 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 19, 2008, 05:29:58 PM
What people need to realise is that when there are 4/5 men tackling one, there are 3/4 men on the team of the player in possession free and un marked. Surely the onus is on the player in possession, and his team mates to use some speed of though/hand/foot and lay the ball off to a free man when the chance arises before they are set upon by a swarm of players. How come Tyrone rarely get caught like this? Maybe its because they prepare for it - and take advantage of the situation when it arises.
In fairness everyone says this but it's not so easy in reality to find a loose player when you are surrounded and being buffeted by 4 or 5 opposition players at the same time. It's very difficult to get a clean hand-pass away let alone try to swing a boot at the ball.
Of course people say a player shouldn't get in that position in the first place but it's not always the fault of the opposition player that he gets surrounded. He could be picking up a loose pass or diving on a loose ball and before he knows it he's surrounded.
Personally I don't like to see the whole surrounding of players. It just looks ugly IMO. It looks like a ruck outside a chipper on a Saturday night. I don't think it's a particularly big problem in the game though.
I agree with this, i'm not knocking tyrone as they're only playing the rules that are there and they played their game brilliantly on saturday, but it can't be right that the player in possession be at a disadvantage, there has to be a way out and at present there is not one, I'd be in favour of allowing a mark of some sort (at least on a trial basis) and maybe a rule stating the maximum number of men allowed in the tackling process (to include surrounding a man), hard to police etc I know, but I think the player in possession has to be have an option other than fouling the ball or giving it to the opposition.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 18, 2008, 03:56:09 PM
Dig a hole.
Don't forget yer shovel ... and remember to fill the hole in again ... :D
[ An essential implement for exceptional point scoring apparently ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-wVvNpAGYQ&feature=related
QuoteWould the teammates of the player who's surrounded be allowed go in and shoulder some of the surrounding players out of the way?
That wouldnt work against Tyrone. They'd just dive to the ground and look for a free.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 19, 2008, 09:17:53 PM
QuoteWould the teammates of the player who's surrounded be allowed go in and shoulder some of the surrounding players out of the way?
That wouldnt work against Tyrone. They'd just dive to the ground and look for a free.
Good one! ;D
Time for a pants check. Yep yer shittin it already.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 19, 2008, 09:17:53 PM
QuoteWould the teammates of the player who's surrounded be allowed go in and shoulder some of the surrounding players out of the way?
That wouldnt work against Tyrone. They'd just dive to the ground and look for a free.
Your beloved Kingdom tried that one Mike, and rather than dive to the floor, Tyrone hit them back, harder until eventually all poor old Dara O'Se could do was swing a boot at it as he calved. The rest of the green and gold followed suit and it was cheerio to the kindgom for one more year...
Have a look if you'd like. I imagine that pained look on the kerry supporter in the stand is what you looked like too. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUh5xsyz1E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxUh5xsyz1E)
Actually, if you look at that clip the way the Kerry players still managed to keep posession was superb, heroic even.The greatest exhibition of skill in that sequence
was Dara O'Se's masterful disposession of the Tyrone player.
Mike Sheehy. Thery re talking about you on RTE 1 at the minute. Number 20 in the TWENTY MOMENTS THAT SHOOK IRISH SPORT
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 19, 2008, 09:41:18 PM
Actually, if you look at that clip the way the Kerry players still managed to keep posession was superb, heroic even.The greatest exhibition of skill in that sequence
was Dara O'Se's masterful disposession of the Tyrone player.
I have looked at that clip - and Dara O'Se's disspossesion of McGinely was great (it was a copy of Cavanagh dispossessing the number 10) - but he just couldnt cope and eventually just hoofed it away.
You are right about it being heroic - both sides, but ultimately the red hands were
more heroic and superb!
Im sure a pundit of the calibre of your infamous self would agree...
Quote from: Bogball XV on August 19, 2008, 06:45:43 PM
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on August 19, 2008, 06:07:13 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on August 19, 2008, 05:29:58 PM
What people need to realise is that when there are 4/5 men tackling one, there are 3/4 men on the team of the player in possession free and un marked. Surely the onus is on the player in possession, and his team mates to use some speed of though/hand/foot and lay the ball off to a free man when the chance arises before they are set upon by a swarm of players. How come Tyrone rarely get caught like this? Maybe its because they prepare for it - and take advantage of the situation when it arises.
In fairness everyone says this but it's not so easy in reality to find a loose player when you are surrounded and being buffeted by 4 or 5 opposition players at the same time. It's very difficult to get a clean hand-pass away let alone try to swing a boot at the ball.
Of course people say a player shouldn't get in that position in the first place but it's not always the fault of the opposition player that he gets surrounded. He could be picking up a loose pass or diving on a loose ball and before he knows it he's surrounded.
Personally I don't like to see the whole surrounding of players. It just looks ugly IMO. It looks like a ruck outside a chipper on a Saturday night. I don't think it's a particularly big problem in the game though.
I agree with this, i'm not knocking tyrone as they're only playing the rules that are there and they played their game brilliantly on saturday, but it can't be right that the player in possession be at a disadvantage, there has to be a way out and at present there is not one, I'd be in favour of allowing a mark of some sort (at least on a trial basis) and maybe a rule stating the maximum number of men allowed in the tackling process (to include surrounding a man), hard to police etc I know, but I think the player in possession has to be have an option other than fouling the ball or giving it to the opposition.
Aye, stop your whinging. It's never going to happen that tackling in that way isn't allowed. Indeed, I have witnessed Kerry at it themselves (Who would have thought it from purists?)
Gave up reeading this thread on the second page and skipped to the last post... Agree with Ardmachaabu's last point. If (IF, if) Kerry and Tyrone end up in the AI final, you can bet that Kerry will joyously take any opportunity to surround any poor Tyrone man that falls in their way.
When the ball is stationary on the ground in Hurling it can be bad viewing. When there are four or so men trying to pick it up or swipe at it together it looks like kids chasing a drink can. There was a lot of this in the Tipp Waterford game. It was great a freat game none the less.
We need to cull some members of the GAA particularly those who believe football only existed before 1999.
Don´t know if its already been mentioned or not, but what would youse think about introducing a mark for balls caught between the two 65´s? Would stop the swarming of players on the kickout anyway.
Quote from: Doire abú on August 20, 2008, 11:27:10 PM
Don´t know if its already been mentioned or not, but what would youse think about introducing a mark for balls caught between the two 65´s? Would stop the swarming of players on the kickout anyway.
I don't think between the to 65s has been mentioned but the mark from kickouts has. It wouldn't prevent it from the kick from the resulting mark. You'd only be putting it of til the next kick.
All this debate 'cos Spillane didn t like Kerry being stuffed by Tyrone in 2003.
Let the Kerry ones debate this amongst this 'til the cows come home.
The rest of us accept this play as the game evolving through time.
Kerry ones want the rules changed because it doesn t suit them.!
Quote from: Gaffer on August 20, 2008, 11:51:54 PM
Kerry ones want the rules changed because it doesn t suit them.!
There's a bit of Hernry VIII about that Kingdom.