Do many of yous still attend confessions on a regular basis?
I havnt been in years, dont think i wanna go back and say its been x yrs since my last confession!
I would be in the confession box for a rite wee wile!
What would a member of the clergy say if ye toul him ye'd feelings for him?
I go three times a year. Need to go soon again...
I'm actually quite honest in confessions..... actually confess.
Once a year if i can.
Act of contrition every night as well!!
Creepy.
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
Creepy.
Yes we know you are, but if your not gonna contribute to the thread please refrain from posting your bile!
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I think Limbo
(http://www.tropicalparty.co.uk/acatalog/50839-limbo-kit.jpg)
Quote from: hardstation on July 18, 2008, 10:52:35 PM
Big clap for ziggy. Unlike myself, he doesn't say that he rid Cheryl Cole in an attempt to look cool infront of the most important man in the parish.
That's cause I've never met Cheryl Cole.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 18, 2008, 10:52:47 PM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I think Limbo
(http://www.tropicalparty.co.uk/acatalog/50839-limbo-kit.jpg)
At 6'2", I'm not a great build for limbo.
Quote from: hardstation on July 18, 2008, 10:56:09 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 18, 2008, 10:53:54 PM
Quote from: hardstation on July 18, 2008, 10:52:35 PM
Big clap for ziggy. Unlike myself, he doesn't say that he rid Cheryl Cole in an attempt to look cool infront of the most important man in the parish.
That's cause I've never met Cheryl Cole.
I hope you told your sicko/racist/Fermanagh mate to go to confession.
I did and he asked me who that was.
Also, he's named the car. Herbie....
Sure you start off every time with a lie - forgive me father its been...
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I can never actually remember any specific sins so just try and cover all my wrongs by confessing to all the sins that i may have committed. Hopefully that keeps me right!
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 18, 2008, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I can never actually remember any specific sins so just try and cover all my wrongs by confessing to all the sins that i may have committed. Hopefully that keeps me right!
Sort of "Blessed be Father for I have sinned, it has been a period of time since my last confession. I'm not going to bore you with detail, but suffice it to say I've been a sinner since we last spoke, and you should punish me in accordance with the average Catholic sin rate applicable to my age group"?
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 11:02:07 PM
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 18, 2008, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I can never actually remember any specific sins so just try and cover all my wrongs by confessing to all the sins that i may have committed. Hopefully that keeps me right!
Sort of "Blessed be Father for I have sinned, it has been a period of time since my last confession. I'm not going to bore you with detail, but suffice it to say I've been a sinner, and you should punish me in accordance with the average Catholic sin rate applicable to my age group"?
I always thought it was
bless me father.
That should keep you on the right track Niall although if you happen to kill someone or run off with another mans missus or another missus man (whatever your fancy), youd prob be better to get it off your chest!!
Not really into the whole mass thing
but
what happens if someone confesses to a crime in a confession like "I'm holding Maddie Mc Cann hostage"
Can the priest tell the police?
Its probably more than 20 years since my last and final visit.
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 11:03:16 PM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 11:02:07 PM
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 18, 2008, 10:58:09 PM
Quote from: Niall Quinn on July 18, 2008, 10:51:31 PM
What's the Churches position on sins you genuinely forget about? Are you automatically forgiven or are you punished in eternity for your absent-mindedness? I've an awful memory on me at this stage, and I'm wondering how it will serve me come Judgement Day?
I can never actually remember any specific sins so just try and cover all my wrongs by confessing to all the sins that i may have committed. Hopefully that keeps me right!
Sort of "Blessed be Father for I have sinned, it has been a period of time since my last confession. I'm not going to bore you with detail, but suffice it to say I've been a sinner, and you should punish me in accordance with the average Catholic sin rate applicable to my age group"?
I always thought it was bless me father.
I was using confessional license.
Sometimes I say 'Breast me Feather'.
QuoteNo. Although it is well known that the peelers have the confession boxes bugged.
Do you think that many priests would have been informers during the troubles in return for some favors from the RUC?
You seem very certain?
He must be RUC, PP or CC then.
Id say there was very little confessing done when the war was going!!
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
Creepy.
Yes we know you are, but if your not gonna contribute to the thread please refrain from posting your bile!
Says it all that you only appear to be offended by my 'bile' ::)
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
Creepy.
Yes we know you are, but if your not gonna contribute to the thread please refrain from posting your bile!
Says it all that you only appear to be offended by my 'bile' ::)
Like i said please refrain from posting useless comments, every1 else is adding to the thread, you are taking away from it!
dont make me angry.
Calling pog a cnut.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yjhKIttvX34&feature=related
Forgive me Father for I have sinned,It has been 17 years since my last confession
Was at a Debs in the Bridge House in Tullamore one year back in the mid-90's,I went with this girl who asked me after i shifted her one night in the local disco in Borris-in-Ossary anyway to cut a long story short i ended up getting a jump off her best friend that night down a little side street in Tullamore,but I also got a jump off the girl who brought me at a house party after the Debs..The two women found out and they stopped being best friends and i ended up with neither....
Bet u dont regret a minute of it LL
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 19, 2008, 12:10:39 AM
Bet u dont regret a minute of it LL
Well this is the confessions thread not the regrets thread :D
u dont sound too remorseful either you horny goat!!
Thou shalt not covet thou friends friend
Let me think - it's been a while:
Can I suggest yogurt?
No, a bit of oatmeal just Seamus.
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 11:26:33 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
Creepy.
Yes we know you are, but if your not gonna contribute to the thread please refrain from posting your bile!
Says it all that you only appear to be offended by my 'bile' ::)
Like i said please refrain from posting useless comments, every1 else is adding to the thread, you are taking away from it!
dont make me angry.
Ooh get you! ;D
Is anger a sin?
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 19, 2008, 07:49:03 AM
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 11:26:33 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 11:24:12 PM
Quote from: fred the red on July 18, 2008, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: Chrisowc on July 18, 2008, 10:51:14 PM
Creepy.
Yes we know you are, but if your not gonna contribute to the thread please refrain from posting your bile!
Says it all that you only appear to be offended by my 'bile' ::)
Like i said please refrain from posting useless comments, every1 else is adding to the thread, you are taking away from it!
dont make me angry.
Ooh get you! ;D
Is anger a sin?
Im not angered yet by you, just bemused as to why you would post such lame comments on a serious enough thread. :-\
I suppose you all believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too?
Confessions? to who you are confessing?
Quote from: mannix on July 19, 2008, 08:57:09 AM
I suppose you all believe in the tooth fairy and santa claus too?
Confessions? to who you are confessing?
Careful Mannix. This is a serious thread.
Chris, feel sorry for him. As a none believer he is condemned for eternity in limbo.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 19, 2008, 01:03:25 PM
Chris, feel sorry for him. As a none believer he is condemned for eternity in limbo.
I would rather be a non believer with 'your lot' than mine. I'm going straight to hell for eternal damnation!
Confessions - don't know how anyone can believe that going into a dark box with a priest and telling him the bold things you've done can save your soul.......
Quote from: Tubberman on July 19, 2008, 01:59:49 PM
Confessions - don't know how anyone can believe that going into a dark box with a priest and telling him the bold things you've done can save your soul.......
Like I said. Creepy.
'Oh Bless me Father for I have sinned,
She has big brown eyes and silky skin,
Oh Bless me Father I couldn't resist,
Father, you have no idea what you missed!' :)
Don't know the rest of the words to the Sawdoctors song but it's a good one.
On a more serious, there's a new general absolution in our diocese. It saves hassle of going into the Confessional boxes, but it's not recognised by the church and I can't remember when I was last at Confessions. It must be at least 3/4 years ago.
Quote from: Tubberman on July 19, 2008, 01:59:49 PM
Confessions - don't know how anyone can believe that going into a dark box with a priest and telling him the bold things you've done can save your soul.......
Penance....
Confessions - terrible waste of time at best. Sure if god knows all, and forgives those who repent, whats the use of the medium of man (at least one of whom will be sitting back there pullin the wire while bernadette tells him of her bath time indiscretions)?
Im with Chris on this one.
Bless me father, for I have sinned. I rode a girl from Duleek.
- Well, my son, anything's better than walking.
about 10 years
Quote from: ziggysego on July 19, 2008, 01:03:25 PM
Chris, feel sorry for him. As a none believer he is condemned for eternity in limbo.
Your pope says there is no such place as limbo anymore. Apparently Jesus sent him an email telling him that he forgot to mention that before. As for confessing - last time I went to do that I was 15 and me mother crashed the car on the way. I took that as a sign from god that it was a complete joke of a thing to be at. Sure aren't they effectively doing a sample "sin" thing now, where you confess to one thing and the rest is wiped out too. I think that came by Fax from the Holy Spirit there a year or two ago.
You sure you weren't watching Dogma myles?
Once upon a time I was friendly with a priest who used to teach me; a sound man if there ever was one.
Later on when I became a teacher myself and he became the PP of my parish, we used to meet up and slip off somewhere quiet where we could slug a slew of pints and have the craic.
He has many tales to tell of confession and the characters he would encounter there. (The smell of raw onions and stale porter were his pet hates.)
He swore the following story is true:
One night after a long, hard slog in the confessional a stranger came in and began to tell his sins. Like so many others he was half cut and the stink of beer off him was overpowering so the priest wasn't as alert as usual.
When the man finally got around to saying he had consorted with a lady of easy virtue, the priest decide to intervene.
He began to give a lecture on the evils of syphilis and the likes and asked the guy if it was with such and such a one he had done the business. No, said yer man, he wasn't sure of the name but he didn't think it was her. He asked the priest to give him any other name so he could see if he recalled it. So he was given another name; it wasn't the right one and he was asked for another. So he was given a third one. No luck here either.
"Well," said the priest, "that's about all there is. The best thing to do is to confess your transgression and do your penance and the Good Lord will forgive you."
Yer man stood up at that.
"I figure," sez he, "That I'll hang on for a while. You've given me three new names to be getting on with. I'll call back for forgiveness when I've seen the lot of them."
The concept of 'Confessions' is ridiculous, in my opinion. Admittedly, I'm a nonbeliever, but having gone to Confessions in my younger years, it was very much like mass - something you had to do. I went in, rhymed off the same few stupid things and was glad it was over.
I'd imagine that for many people, it's a way of letting go of their guilt - a relief, and therefore comforting to them. The ironic thing is, such guilt is probably often 'Catholic guilt', which they wouldn't carry in the first place, were it not for their years of indoctrination.
I also wonder what some people confess(?) For example, does anyone confess to something like premarital sex? Drunkenness, greed and jealously are also classed as sins in different parts the bible - do people confess to these? What about masterbation or use of contraceptives? If so, do they make a conscious effort not to 'sin' again in such ways?
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 01:02:16 AM
I also wonder what some people confess(?) For example, does anyone confess to something like premarital sex? Drunkenness, greed and jealously are also classed as sins in different parts the bible - do people confess to these? What about masterbation or use of contraceptives? If so, do they make a conscious effort not to 'sin' again in such ways?
Most of that, yes. Not telling you which ones though ;)
You should have been a priest Maguire to find out!!
Quote from: hardstation on July 20, 2008, 01:31:39 AM
Belief gives people comfort. To ridicule someone's belief is pure ignorant.
No one likes to have their beliefs ridiculed, but that doesn't mean that their beliefs are owed respect.
Exactly J70. Some people want me and everyone of my complexion, nationality or race dead because I'm an 'infidel'. Am I expected to respect their belief, however sincerely held it is?
http://patcondell.net/ (http://patcondell.net/)
Quote from: hardstation on July 20, 2008, 01:31:39 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 01:02:16 AM
I'd imagine that for many people, it's a way of letting go of their guilt - a relief, and therefore comforting to them.
Bingo. Although it's "creepy" and "a terrible waste of time at best".
As for the rest of your post, yes, I imagine that there are people who would confess to the things that you have listed. Then, there are many people who wouldn't see those things as sins. They're not Christians/Catholics if they don't agree with all the Christian/Catholic stance on things?
If Jody selected John Finucane at top of the left today (he couldn't do much worse), would I stop following Antrim?
Belief gives people comfort. To ridicule someone's belief is pure ignorant.
Just to clarify - you used "creepy" and "a terrible waste of time" after my post - they were obviously not my comments. Although personally, i do feel it is a waste of time (for me), but appreciate that it may not be for others.
As for the 'pick and mix' attitude towards the Church's teaching, what gives people the 'right' (if that's the correct word), to decide what does and does not constitute a sin? If you're a Christian/Catholic, why should you be able to say something in the bible is
not a sin, just because it doesn't suit with your view or lifestyle?
I'm (obviously) not religious, but my own view of 'sin', or my 'moral code' if i had to think about it, would be to differentiate those actions which hurt someone else. These would probably be my 'sins'.
Quote from: J70 on July 20, 2008, 03:45:07 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 20, 2008, 01:31:39 AM
Belief gives people comfort. To ridicule someone's belief is pure ignorant.
No one likes to have their beliefs ridiculed, but that doesn't mean that their beliefs are owed respect.
Nail on head. The idea that religion is somehow beyone criticism, debate or ridicule is ridiculous. Why should it be ignorant to pick holes in someone's beliefs? Why should religion be elevated and given unconditional respect?
Quote from: J70 on July 20, 2008, 03:45:07 AM
Quote from: hardstation on July 20, 2008, 01:31:39 AM
Belief gives people comfort. To ridicule someone's belief is pure ignorant.
No one likes to have their beliefs ridiculed, but that doesn't mean that their beliefs are owed respect.
If that has something to do with my own comments hardstation, I was merely commenting on my own belief (which Id believe Id be entitled to do). If one comment is enough to ridicule someone elses beliefs, they must not have a very strong core to begin with. There is little doubt in my mind on the uselessness of confession. I believe it to be a farce, but if someone gets something out of it, more power to them.
What Puckoon said.
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
i go to confessions about 3 times a year, maybe christmas, easter, start of lent, times like that. I have to say i'm telling the same silly sins since i was 12. bad language, lies etc. petty things
Quote from: miss mess on July 20, 2008, 08:27:50 PM
i go to confessions about 3 times a year, maybe christmas, easter, start of lent, times like that. I have to say i'm telling the same silly sins since i was 12. bad language, lies etc. petty things
(http://i13.tinypic.com/6bw4vnn.jpg)
that is the worst photo ever. who the f**k would be bothered doing that a cat?
Just something to do in the wilds of the Sperrin Mountains on a Saturday night.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 07:40:25 PM
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
And it should also be open to criticism and challenge.
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 07:40:25 PM
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
And it should also be open to criticism and challenge.
Yep, but not mocked.
Just for the record, I didn't think you were mocked. The things you said were valid. Don't know what hardstation was on about, must have been at the glue again Maguire ;)
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 07:40:25 PM
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
And it should also be open to criticism and challenge.
Yep, but not mocked.
The right to a belief should not be mocked. The belief itself is fair game.
Quote from: J70 on July 20, 2008, 09:32:41 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 07:40:25 PM
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
And it should also be open to criticism and challenge.
Yep, but not mocked.
The right to a belief should not be mocked. The belief itself is fair game.
Yes. If someone said they believed in Santa or the Tooth Fairy, the belief itself would be fair game (and if we're honest, we'd probably do a bit of mocking too!).
Quote from: J70 on July 20, 2008, 09:32:41 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 09:13:44 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 20, 2008, 09:09:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 20, 2008, 07:40:25 PM
A person's right to a belief should be respected, as indeed the right to not believe.
And it should also be open to criticism and challenge.
Yep, but not mocked.
The right to a belief should not be mocked. The belief itself is fair game.
That's true J70 but when religion is mentioned on here there's several posters (and I'm not saying you're one of them) that seem to go out of their way to try and insult and degrade with their sneering remarks like "your pope".
There is a way of disagree with someone's beliefs (and I don't believe in confession) without sounding like a p***k (and, again, I'm not talking about you).
Quote
I also wonder what some people confess(?) For example, does anyone confess to something like premarital sex? Drunkenness, greed and jealously are also classed as sins in different parts the bible - do people confess to these? What about masterbation or use of contraceptives? If so, do they make a conscious effort not to 'sin' again in such ways?
The last time I was at confession, many years ago, I was sitting waiting in the queue and this boy went in to the box and I don't know if the priest was half deaf or what but half the chapel heard him getting a lecture on adultry :D
Quote from: miss mess on July 20, 2008, 08:27:50 PM
i go to confessions about 3 times a year, maybe christmas, easter, start of lent, times like that. I have to say i'm telling the same silly sins since i was 12. bad language, lies etc. petty things
maybe you should kill someone, or have an affair with your neighbours husband and you might have something new to confess
Quote from: miss mess on July 20, 2008, 08:27:50 PM
i go to confessions about 3 times a year, maybe christmas, easter, start of lent, times like that. I have to say i'm telling the same silly sins since i was 12. bad language, lies etc. petty things
So why go? Habit?
It can't be for the 'guilt thing' if you're rhyming off the "same silly sins" since you were 12...
I agree, if you don't take it seriously, why bother going?
Nice to see the present state of the Catholic Church and the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church
I really don't like stereotypes and I don't think many others do. I don't like that people all over the world think that because I'm Irish I drink more than anyone else and fight every weekend.
I don't like how people label all priests as closet homosexuals, pedophiles or whatever else.
I don't think it is right either to blast the Church or put it down if you can't put your hand on your heart and say you really gave it every thing you had before deciding it wasn't for you.
Confession is never going to be important in your life if God isn't and by the sounds of it He takes a back seat to everything else going on in your life. I'm not a Bible basher - I just have a strong faith and always will and I'm sick of Irish people in particular simply bashing the church and running their mouths on something they are definitely not fully informed on.
You know people all over the world think that Irish Catholics have such strong faith? Sad to say they couldn't be farther from the truth
Iris? Is that you? But seriously...
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Nice to see the present state of the Catholic Church and the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church
You've addressed this to "the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church". Your implication that those who don't
do confession or the Church are somehow less capable of raising children properly stinks. Although you probably should be worried about the future of the Church, but that's
your concern, not the country's. The present state of the Catholic Church is as much a result of it's past as it is society's present.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I really don't like stereotypes and I don't think many others do. I don't like that people all over the world think that because I'm Irish I drink more than anyone else and fight every weekend.
What's the relevance of this?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't like how people label all priests as closet homosexuals, pedophiles or whatever else.
Few people do this. Although the proportions of homosexuals and paedophiles in the priesthood are probably higher than in society in general. Not that I'd have a problem if all of them were homosexuals, would you?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't think it is right either to blast the Church or put it down if you can't put your hand on your heart and say you really gave it every thing you had before deciding it wasn't for you.
It's very patronising to imply that those who have rejected the Church/religion have not thought it through. Why should you 'give it everything before deciding it's not for you'? Surely all you have to do is think it through and weigh up the argument in your own mind.
(For the record, i have studied religion more than many and have a big interest in religion - I've given it my full consideration. Have you studied religion? Have you fully considered Islam, Judaism, Buddism, before settling on Christianity/Catholicism?) Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Confession is never going to be important in your life if God isn't and by the sounds of it He takes a back seat to everything else going on in your life. I'm not a Bible basher - I just have a strong faith and always will and I'm sick of Irish people in particular simply bashing the church and running their mouths on something they are definitely not fully informed on.
As for God getting 'a back seat' in the lives of many, it may surprise you that he doesn't even get on the roof-rack for many. But please, inform us ignorant people of what we are not fully informed on.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
You know people all over the world think that Irish Catholics have such strong faith? Sad to say they couldn't be farther from the truth
Most people know better. Many of those who don't still think the place is populated with leprechauns. And it's not that Irish Catholics don't have strong faith - it's that 'Irish Catholics' aren't really Irish Catholics.
What this discussion has high-lighted so far is the complete failure of the system of religious education in Ireland. We have so called adults voicing child like views and opinions. There is a complete ignorance of the concept of moral relativism or the difference between subjective and objective truths. In fact the level of discussion is so appallingly cretinous and misinformed that it is not worth having. Stick to discussing Football, Birds and Booze lads, and dont be displaying your ignorance, leave the serious topics until you attain adulthood
Seeing as you like to be all logical and break my points down into readable sentences and address each one separately I'll do the same:
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 21, 2008, 07:44:51 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Nice to see the present state of the Catholic Church and the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church
You've addressed this to "the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church". Your implication that those who don't do confession or the Church are somehow less capable of raising children properly stinks. Although you probably should be worried about the future of the Church, but that's your concern, not the country's. The present state of the Catholic Church is as much a result of it's past as it is society's present.
I don't imply that those who don't do confession do not make a good job of raising children. Maybe I should have put a hyphen in to make it read like I intended "our children - the future of the church". And for the record I do think it is quite sad and worrying that our kids do not even get a chance to discover the Church or God or religion for themselves when society, the media and people in general mindlessly bash the Church and white wash the clergy.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I really don't like stereotypes and I don't think many others do. I don't like that people all over the world think that because I'm Irish I drink more than anyone else and fight every weekend.
What's the relevance of this?
the relevance is - I used this to lead into my next statement below....
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't like how people label all priests as closet homosexuals, pedophiles or whatever else.
Few people do this. Although the proportions of homosexuals and paedophiles in the priesthood are probably higher than in society in general. Not that I'd have a problem if all of them were homosexuals, would you?
Maybe you should re-read the thread - there are several underhand comments relating to the sexuality of priests and the actions of priests in the confessional box behind the curtain. I wouldn't have a problem if all priests were homosexuals, the Church wouldn't either - but then you know that being so read on religion
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't think it is right either to blast the Church or put it down if you can't put your hand on your heart and say you really gave it every thing you had before deciding it wasn't for you.
It's very patronising to imply that those who have rejected the Church/religion have not thought it through. Why should you 'give it everything before deciding it's not for you'? Surely all you have to do is think it through and weigh up the argument in your own mind. (For the record, i have studied religion more than many and have a big interest in religion - I've given it my full consideration. Have you studied religion? Have you fully considered Islam, Judaism, Buddism, before settling on Christianity/Catholicism?)
I have studied religion and spent a long time looking into religion - but not as a subject - its not Geography. And I don't really think it is patronising of me to make the generalisation - the majority of people run down the sacraments, the church, the clergy and really know nothing about the Church (caused as another poster writes - by a major failure in Catholic education - what we were taught in school isn't what the church teaches at all). My own faith journey did not involve deciding on what religion to go with - it involved figuring out what I believed and why and then realising the Catholic Church was the place for me.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Confession is never going to be important in your life if God isn't and by the sounds of it He takes a back seat to everything else going on in your life. I'm not a Bible basher - I just have a strong faith and always will and I'm sick of Irish people in particular simply bashing the church and running their mouths on something they are definitely not fully informed on.
As for God getting 'a back seat' in the lives of many, it may surprise you that he doesn't even get on the roof-rack for many. But please, inform us ignorant people of what we are not fully informed on.
I can see that God may not even be on the roof rack and I don't intend to come across as the fully informed or enlightened one - I am simply offering something towards the opposite end of the spectrum to the original post.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
You know people all over the world think that Irish Catholics have such strong faith? Sad to say they couldn't be farther from the truth
And it's not that Irish Catholics don't have strong faith - it's that 'Irish Catholics' aren't really Irish Catholics.
I agree
Quote from: Pangurban on July 21, 2008, 08:02:16 PM
What this discussion has high-lighted so far is the complete failure of the system of religious education in Ireland. We have so called adults voicing child like views and opinions. There is a complete ignorance of the concept of moral relativism or the difference between subjective and objective truths. In fact the level of discussion is so appallingly cretinous and misinformed that it is not worth having. Stick to discussing Football, Birds and Booze lads, and dont be displaying your ignorance, leave the serious topics until you attain adulthood
What, the indoctrination wasn't up to scratch? :P
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 08:35:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 21, 2008, 07:44:51 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
Nice to see the present state of the Catholic Church and the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church
You've addressed this to "the men and women who are raising our children and the future of the Church". Your implication that those who don't do confession or the Church are somehow less capable of raising children properly stinks. Although you probably should be worried about the future of the Church, but that's your concern, not the country's. The present state of the Catholic Church is as much a result of it's past as it is society's present.
I don't imply that those who don't do confession do not make a good job of raising children. Maybe I should have put a hyphen in to make it read like I intended "our children - the future of the church". And for the record I do think it is quite sad and worrying that our kids do not even get a chance to discover the Church or God or religion for themselves when society, the media and people in general mindlessly bash the Church and white wash the clergy.
Do children not get the chance to 'discover god'? Is RE not on the curriculum anymore? It was compulsory when i was in school, not that long ago.
Anyway, children don't need to discover the Church as children – they can discover it when they're old enough to understand it, rather than being told that one story is the only truth.
All children need are boundaries and morals. That doesn't necessitate religion.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 08:35:30 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I really don't like stereotypes and I don't think many others do. I don't like that people all over the world think that because I'm Irish I drink more than anyone else and fight every weekend.
What's the relevance of this?
the relevance is - I used this to lead into my next statement below....
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't like how people label all priests as closet homosexuals, pedophiles or whatever else.
Few people do this. Although the proportions of homosexuals and paedophiles in the priesthood are probably higher than in society in general. Not that I'd have a problem if all of them were homosexuals, would you?
Maybe you should re-read the thread - there are several underhand comments relating to the sexuality of priests and the actions of priests in the confessional box behind the curtain. I wouldn't have a problem if all priests were homosexuals, the Church wouldn't either - but then you know that being so read on religion
Well I'm better read than you on this matter!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 08:35:30 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 04:41:07 PM
I don't think it is right either to blast the Church or put it down if you can't put your hand on your heart and say you really gave it every thing you had before deciding it wasn't for you.
It's very patronising to imply that those who have rejected the Church/religion have not thought it through. Why should you 'give it everything before deciding it's not for you'? Surely all you have to do is think it through and weigh up the argument in your own mind. (For the record, i have studied religion more than many and have a big interest in religion - I've given it my full consideration. Have you studied religion? Have you fully considered Islam, Judaism, Buddism, before settling on Christianity/Catholicism?)
I have studied religion and spent a long time looking into religion - but not as a subject - its not Geography. And I don't really think it is patronising of me to make the generalisation - the majority of people run down the sacraments, the church, the clergy and really know nothing about the Church (caused as another poster writes - by a major failure in Catholic education - what we were taught in school isn't what the church teaches at all). My own faith journey did not involve deciding on what religion to go with - it involved figuring out what I believed and why and then realising the Catholic Church was the place for me.
It's not Geography? Really? I never suggested you had to do an A-Level!
And the poster who cited a failing in Catholic education certainly wasn't arguing your corner!
So you've 'decided' to be a Christian - it's merely a coincidence that you were brought up as one, and irrelevant that you didn't investigate other religions as possibilities. It was pot luck that you were born into the most believeable religion. Fair enough.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 21, 2008, 08:35:30 PM
My own faith journey did not involve deciding on what religion to go with - it involved figuring out what I believed and why and then realising the Catholic Church was the place for me.[/color]
Is that not what Maguire was saying?
That's the way I came to atheism and I would suspect the way most people end up at whatever their position is regarding religion, assuming they actually give it some serious thought and don't just passively go along with whatever they're brought up in.
Quote from: Pangurban on July 21, 2008, 08:02:16 PM
What this discussion has high-lighted so far is the complete failure of the system of religious education in Ireland. We have so called adults voicing child like views and opinions. There is a complete ignorance of the concept of moral relativism or the difference between subjective and objective truths. In fact the level of discussion is so appallingly cretinous and misinformed that it is not worth having. Stick to discussing Football, Birds and Booze lads, and dont be displaying your ignorance, leave the serious topics until you attain adulthood
Take your snobbery and shove it.
People can discuss topics and subjects without having to have an in depth academic knowledge of their intracacies. Its very easy to throw in a few phrases like 'moral relativism' and subjectivity, why don't you contribute to the discussion instead of making child like attempts to trumpet your own perceived knowledge of the subject?
Perhaps you will enlighten us mere Cretins oh great one!
To quote 'The Dude', 'Thats just, like, your opinion man'........ or would it be your subjective truth? hmmmm
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm)
maybe you should read that again Maguire - it says
ACTIVE homosexuals, not homosexuals. I believe there is a difference.
the Church stance is to hate the sin not the sinner. They welcome homosexuals in the Church - just not
active ones.
Maybe you are not so well read after all - or maybe you should study harder............
I love the way religious "intellectuals" try and have us believe that there is some great mystery to religion that is hidden and only after you devote yourself to religion and the study and worship of that religion will you be enlightened. Well, I'm afraid that it is so much more simple than that. Religion is about many things to many people but essentially it is about whether you believe in a God or not. A god being a force for good and all that goes with it. I have said it before that you can believe in God if you want and that is fine. You can decide to talk to your God and confess to your God or whatever you like. I have no problem with that - even though I believe it to be a waste of time. My big problem is with what I call "mass" religion. Glorified Cults. Where the understanding of people is influenced by some person or group of people, somehow selected by God to "translate" the word of God to us mere mortals. For me all the major religions fall into this catagory. And what happens when mass religion takes hold. We get wars, we get genocide, we get corruption, we get meddling in education, we get damnation etc etc. What do the people in charge get? Answer = Power and Wealth. Now we have bible beaters blathering on about Gays, as if they know something about it. On another post I directed people to the book of leviticus, the only mention of homosexulatity in the bible. I also pointed out some of the other crazy stuff written in that book which to any half sane person, discredits the whole book as a work of a deeply disturbed individual. But yet the men at the top reckon the homosexuality reference still stands. The book of revelations and armageddon preached to us for decades to frighten us into repenting before the end of the world and it turns out to be a coded book written about the evils of Roman leader Nero, and what the lord will bestow on him when his time comes. Mary Magdelene from Disciple to Whore. Celebicy introduced years centuries after the bible was written even though many of the apostles were married men. All these changes made by man, not by god. Many made by corrupt men. Mr Iceman - maybe you should study harder and maybe you should study outside of the churches teaching to find the truth because the church are biased. The christian church and all churches seek power and they need devotes, dare I say it, blindly devoted followers to that end.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on July 22, 2008, 04:21:10 PM
I love the way religious "intellectuals" try and have us believe that there is some great mystery to religion that is hidden and only after you devote yourself to religion and the study and worship of that religion will you be enlightened. Well, I'm afraid that it is so much more simple than that. Religion is about many things to many people but essentially it is about whether you believe in a God or not. A god being a force for good and all that goes with it. I have said it before that you can believe in God if you want and that is fine. You can decide to talk to your God and confess to your God or whatever you like. I have no problem with that - even though I believe it to be a waste of time. My big problem is with what I call "mass" religion. Glorified Cults. Where the understanding of people is influenced by some person or group of people, somehow selected by God to "translate" the word of God to us mere mortals. For me all the major religions fall into this catagory. And what happens when mass religion takes hold. We get wars, we get genocide, we get corruption, we get meddling in education, we get damnation etc etc. What do the people in charge get? Answer = Power and Wealth. Now we have bible beaters blathering on about Gays, as if they know something about it. On another post I directed people to the book of leviticus, the only mention of homosexulatity in the bible. I also pointed out some of the other crazy stuff written in that book which to any half sane person, discredits the whole book as a work of a deeply disturbed individual. But yet the men at the top reckon the homosexuality reference still stands. The book of revelations and armageddon preached to us for decades to frighten us into repenting before the end of the world and it turns out to be a coded book written about the evils of Roman leader Nero, and what the lord will bestow on him when his time comes. Mary Magdelene from Disciple to Whore. Celebicy introduced years centuries after the bible was written even though many of the apostles were married men. All these changes made by man, not by god. Many made by corrupt men. Mr Iceman - maybe you should study harder and maybe you should study outside of the churches teaching to find the truth because the church are biased. The christian church and all churches seek power and they need devotes, dare I say it, blindly devoted followers to that end.
In your opinion, your entitled to believe (or not as the case may be) in what you like, as is Mr Iceman and J70 and Pangurban.
I never ever claimed to be an intellectual or have any one believe you have to be immersed in religion to have a relationship with God. You can't come on here and white wash everything else other people say with a similar "all knowing" statement. As I stated before I was simply offering an argument to the other end of the spectrum.
I think you clearly stated whats wrong - "your big problem" doesn't have to be everyone else's problem.
In terms of homosexuality yes it is mentioned in Leviticus with a lot of other crazy stuff. It was also the cause of the destruction of Sodom in the OT and has several references in the NT if you wanted to look. 1 Corinthians 6.9 which spells out things as clearly as possible:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality"...
I don't think that you can discern which changes have been made over the years to the Church are of man and which have been of God - unless you have a special insight that you haven't mentioned? I am certainly not a blind devotee and have openly experienced other religions and conversed and have friends of different faiths. My choice was my choice, not a blind one, not a mis-informed one, not a brain washed one - but mine.
The biggest laugh I get from all this is how people get so up in arms at anyone who dare's talk about God, religion and Church in a positive way and go on the attack whilst saying how bad the Church is. Kettle black etc etc
Is it not a sad state of affairs that God and religion are now a taboo subject?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 05:23:56 PM1 Corinthians 6.9 which spells out things as clearly as possible:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality"...
What if they go to confession?
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
Quotehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4480588.stm)
maybe you should read that again Maguire - it says ACTIVE homosexuals, not homosexuals. I believe there is a difference.
Rubbish. Read the following extract:
Quote"If a candidate practises homosexuality, or presents deep-seated homosexual tendencies, his spiritual director as well as his confessor have the duty to dissuade him in conscience from proceeding towards ordination," it says.
To have a
tendency, all the priest has to do is retain homosexual desires - he doesn't have to act on them, just think about them! If you're homosexual, how can you not have homosexual thoughts?
Look for loopholes all you want - it is quite clear that the Catholic Church does have a problem with gay priests.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
the Church stance is to hate the sin not the sinner.
You
are Iris Robinson! (or at least one of her Free P mates) That can't be easy.
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
Maybe you are not so well read after all - or maybe you should study harder............
I think I've shown that my reading is just fine, thank you.
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 22, 2008, 06:33:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
the Church stance is to hate the sin not the sinner.
You are Iris Robinson! (or at least one of her Free P mates) That can't be easy.
and you are an arsehole
either discuss the topic at hand and drop the name calling or continue to pick and choose what you respond to and hide behind childish comments and your mediocre attempts to be funny
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 07:00:57 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on July 22, 2008, 06:33:12 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
the Church stance is to hate the sin not the sinner.
You are Iris Robinson! (or at least one of her Free P mates) That can't be easy.
and you are an arsehole
either discuss the topic at hand and drop the name calling or continue to pick and choose what you respond to and hide behind childish comments and your mediocre attempts to be funny
I've responded to every bit of your argument. It's you who has decided on what section to reply to. Oh, and whilst i joked that you may be Iris, you've called me an asshole. Who's being childish and name calling?
If you want to get back on topic...
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 05:23:56 PM
In terms of homosexuality yes it is mentioned in Leviticus with a lot of other crazy stuff. It was also the cause of the destruction of Sodom in the OT and has several references in the NT if you wanted to look. 1 Corinthians 6.9 which spells out things as clearly as possible:
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality"...
Lets get into some very basic literary criticism...
The bible was written a long time ago.
It was heavily edited, numerous times.
It was translated into different languages (including English).
The different versions of the Bible (yes, there is no one 'true' version!) are, er, 'different' (including the wording of this very extract from Corinthians).
It is debated as to whether the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah actually happened. If it did, it's quite possible that it was a natural disaster. It's like Hurricane Katrina, and Pastor John Hagee (currently endorsing John McCain):
Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans." "New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God," Hagee said, because "there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came." "I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."Do you not think that is a ridiculous suggestion? How is it different to the content of Genesis?
The part of the bible you reference (Corinthians) was written by a guy called Paul. Not God. It's unlikely that he even met Jesus. Who decided to include it in the Bible? On what basis should it be an authority?
Your other reference (Genesis), opposes the idea of evolution. Credible?
Based on your last post you believe in God? Jesus?
But not the Holy Spirit?
Look I really don't want to get into a whole religious debate and theology of the Bible vre tradition vrs darwin vrs the world and whoever else you can pull out of your bottom drawer
The topic was about confession - everyone else pitched in against it - I give a different opinion - shoot me for it
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 08:27:58 PM
Based on your last post you believe in God? Jesus?
But not the Holy Spirit?
Look I really don't want to get into a whole religious debate and theology of the Bible vre tradition vrs darwin vrs the world and whoever else you can pull out of your bottom drawer
The topic was about confession - everyone else pitched in against it - I give a different opinion - shoot me for it
I don't believe in God. I was referring to those who cite the Bible as 'God's word', when it was clearly written by men.
I believe in Jesus, in sofar as he existed as a hstorical figure. As i don't believe in God, it follows that i don't believe he was his son.
And i'm not shooting you for your opinion, but if you argue a particular point, you can expect to be challenged on it. You based certain parts of your argument on the Church's teachings and the Bible. You've bowed out - fair enough.
I haven't bowed out lad
But trying to explain something to someone who needs facts figures and DNA evidence doesn't work for God and faith
Do you believe you have a Soul?
What is the purpose of your existence?
At this point, I would like to suggest a book by C. S. Lewis titled, "Miracles." C. S. Lewis was an agnostic who tried to prove that there is no God. The more he tried to prove it, the more he found out that there is a God.
if you think its warm now.........................
Quote from: The Iceman on July 22, 2008, 08:46:32 PM
I haven't bowed out lad
But trying to explain something to someone who needs facts figures and DNA evidence doesn't work for God and faith
Do you believe you have a Soul?
What is the purpose of your existence?
At this point, I would like to suggest a book by C. S. Lewis titled, "Miracles." C. S. Lewis was an agnostic who tried to prove that there is no God. The more he tried to prove it, the more he found out that there is a God.
if you think its warm now.........................
I don't need DNA evidence. I believe Jesus existed. DNA evidence wouldn't prove that God was his father.
If you believe in God in spite of the Bible, then fair enough - but you shouldn't then reference the Bible as part of a logical debate.
Do i have a soul? No
The purpose of my existence? Why does there have to be a purpose? What purpose do other animals have?
I don't need to prove God doesn't exist. The onus is clearly on you to prove that he does, if you wish to argue that line.
Maguire - I'm with you 100%. Can't believe I am agreeing with a Monaghan man though :).
If you want to read a good book on the fruits of religion Ice Man, I suggest "The war for civilisation" by Robert Fisk. See if you can stomach it to half way - some truly appaling eye witness stories in it all steming directly or indirectly from religion.
Scud says....People can discuss topics and subjects without having to have an in depth academic knowledge of their intracacies.
I say, of course they can discuss all they like, as a way of seeking information or knowledge re. the subject, but when they start expressing opinions, as some here are doing very dogmatically, then they just become laughable and are not to be taken seriously. When a court requires expert opinion on a subject, they do not send for any Joe Soap of the street. Established, recognised authority, supported by acaedemic qualification and experience is required. The opinion of the average man in the street is of no value in most subjects. What we refer to as our opinions are merely our prejudices. You childishly scorned my reference to moral relativism and the difference between subjective and objective truth, in doing so you merely affirm that you are less qualified than i am to venture an opinion, and i am poorly qualified. Fortunately for both of us, religion and its practice is more a matter of faith than knowledge, and faith is a gift freely given to be accepted or rejected in accordance with free will.
How do you choose to accept or reject faith? You either find the idea of a god convincing or you don't. I don't see how choice can come into it at all. You cannot force yourself to believe in something.
Quote from: J70 on July 23, 2008, 12:00:07 AM
How do you choose to accept or reject faith? You either find the idea of a god convincing or you don't. I don't see how choice can come into it at all. You cannot force yourself to believe in something.
You can choose not to consider the alternatives and adopt what you were born into without any real challenge. Many, indeed probably the majority, do just this.
Quote from: Pangurban on July 22, 2008, 11:56:51 PM
Scud says....People can discuss topics and subjects without having to have an in depth academic knowledge of their intracacies.
I say, of course they can discuss all they like, as a way of seeking information or knowledge re. the subject, but when they start expressing opinions, as some here are doing very dogmatically, then they just become laughable and are not to be taken seriously. When a court requires expert opinion on a subject, they do not send for any Joe Soap of the street. Established, recognised authority, supported by acaedemic qualification and experience is required. The opinion of the average man in the street is of no value in most subjects. What we refer to as our opinions are merely our prejudices. You childishly scorned my reference to moral relativism and the difference between subjective and objective truth, in doing so you merely affirm that you are less qualified than i am to venture an opinion, and i am poorly qualified. Fortunately for both of us, religion and its practice is more a matter of faith than knowledge, and faith is a gift freely given to be accepted or rejected in accordance with free will.
Pangurban, this is not a court of law. I find your elitist attitude toward your fellow man, frankly, depressing. The opinion of the average man in the street is of no importance in most subjects?? If thats your prejudice, fine.....
I did not childishly scorn your references, my point was that you used these terms in an attempt to discredit a discussion that is taking place, simply because you believe it is of no merit.
I have not ventured an opinion on the present discussion, nor I believe have you for that matter.