What is your idea of unionist (inc. orange and loyalist) tradition?
Do they actually have any?
Or is it being made up as we speak?
Are you trying to start a fight? Why is Salthill and tourist places full of people from NI around the 12th July.
You've a bit of a bee in your bonnet tonight sir. Of course they've a culture, just not one you or I can identity with. No doubt some would say the same about the Irish culture. I say let them get on with it, as long as they don't try to use it use it to intimidate others and impose themselves on others.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on July 03, 2008, 01:45:00 AM
What is your idea of unionist (inc. orange and loyalist) tradition?
Do they actually have any?
Or is it being made up as we speak?
Its not really a culture in that it only exists to oppose Gaelic culture - we all know that if the north was suddenly fenianless these parades would cease, flegs would be nowhere to be seen, not a bowler hat nor stiff arse in sight. How in the name of god can ye base your entire life and thinkings on a foreign skirmish over 300 yrs ago and call it culture
false principles based purely on hatred for Irishness
and thats why you'll not see a parade on Rathlin - the Puffins just don't give a f*ck.........now if they were fenian Puffins....well..
Have all ye Prods quit talking to your neighbours yet? must be near that time for a harrumph or a growl instead of good morning
As per a letter in the belfast telegraph last night unionist culture is either
a) Milton, Shakespeare, Handel, Vaughn Williams, Keats and Shelley
or
b) the 'right' to paint kerbstones, sectarian murals, sectarian parades etc
do they do yougurt in Orange flavour?
Quote from: ziggysego on July 03, 2008, 01:57:07 AM
You've a bit of a bee in your bonnet tonight sir. Of course they've a culture, just not one you or I can identity with. No doubt some would say the same about the Irish culture. I say let them get on with it, as long as they don't try to use it use it to intimidate others and impose themselves on others.
On Tuesday night Ballygawley was effectly closed down for approx 3 hours while 'they' paraded up and down the street. If people who lived on the street wanted to get out in their car it was hard luck.. I would count this as Intimidation and imposing themselves on others. Bear in mind that Ballygawley is about 95% Catholic. No fun to parade where it is mostly protestant!! ::)
why dont the 95% do something about it then??
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 03, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
why dont the 95% do something about it then??
What do you suggest?
Quote from: EC Unique on July 03, 2008, 09:46:03 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on July 03, 2008, 01:57:07 AM
You've a bit of a bee in your bonnet tonight sir. Of course they've a culture, just not one you or I can identity with. No doubt some would say the same about the Irish culture. I say let them get on with it, as long as they don't try to use it use it to intimidate others and impose themselves on others.
On Tuesday night Ballygawley was effectly closed down for approx 3 hours while 'they' paraded up and down the street. If people who lived on the street wanted to get out in their car it was hard luck.. I would count this as Intimidation and imposing themselves on others. Bear in mind that Ballygawley is about 95% Catholic. No fun to parade where it is mostly protestant!! ::)
Well that's one of the areas I would have a problem with it. They really need to talk with the local people and come to some kind of arrange that everyone is happy with. Shutting a town down for 3 hours is crazy.
Quote from: EC Unique on July 03, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 03, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
why dont the 95% do something about it then??
What do you suggest?
I would suggest that you look at forming a committee/public forum/group or similar to investigate the legal precedent if any to apply to have these stopped as they are unwelcome, and if that fails move to the next stage...Maybe ask your parents how their generation went about raising their concerns....
Quote from: ziggysego on July 03, 2008, 01:57:07 AM
You've a bit of a bee in your bonnet tonight sir. Of course they've a culture, just not one you or I can identity with. No doubt some would say the same about the Irish culture. I say let them get on with it, as long as they don't try to use it use it to intimidate others and impose themselves on others.
Ah but Ziggy, I'm asking a question, which I'm really interested in seeing what the members of this board think about.
If you think that they have a culture then what do you think distingushes it from "us"?
Also is it a culture or just traditions
Just upbringing GDA, sure who knows what I'd be doing if I was from the Hospital Road or from East of the Bann. As John Hume said 'You cannot eat a flag'
There aren't many uses left in a modern society for the gatling gun but marching season is one.
Quote from: ziggysego on July 03, 2008, 11:03:19 AM
Just upbringing GDA, sure who knows what I'd be doing if I was from the Hospital Road or from East of the Bann. As John Hume said 'You cannot eat a flag'
You can fly it but you can't fry it .
You can wave it but you can't microwave it.
Trying to think of something that rhymes with George Foreman ???
Is the wave / microwve a Hardy original ?
You can fly it but you can't deep fry it.
I presumed the fry/fly was an original. I thought we were starting a game.
No that's an oldie .
Is it? i thought i'd had my first original thought
No we are still waiting on that one Uladh ;)
I'm thinking....
Quote from: downredblack on July 03, 2008, 11:49:35 AM
Trying to think of something that rhymes with George Foreman ???
Is the wave / microwve a Hardy original ?
Orange lill spits on formans grill.
Well if you turn it up too much.
Youd have to define your impression of the term "culture". Seems to me that people try and belittle others by claiming it isnt culture because they dont agree with it, but id like to know the criteria
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Youd have to define your impression of the term "culture". Seems to me that people try and belittle others by claiming it isnt culture because they dont agree with it, but id like to know the criteria
Fair point, some people's version of "Irish culture" is wearing green and getting hammered on March 17th
As Culture is defined
Orange Order is not a culture, it is a tradition like the Masons or the KKK.
Unionist culture is a political and maybe religious belief amongst a group of people that exists within a region
and the structure created to pass on those beliefs to the next generation.
As culture goes there isn't much to it.
Unless I am missing something with the depth of tradition of Unionist Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 01:31:13 PM
Youd have to define your impression of the term "culture". Seems to me that people try and belittle others by claiming it isnt culture because they dont agree with it, but id like to know the criteria
SOME DEFINITIONS
Culture refers to the cumulative deposit of knowledge, experience, beliefs, values, attitudes, meanings, hierarchies, religion, notions of time, roles, spatial relations, concepts of the universe, and material objects and possessions acquired by a group of people in the course of generations through individual and group striving.
Culture is the systems of knowledge shared by a relatively large group of people.
Culture is communication, communication is culture.
Culture in its broadest sense is cultivated behavior; that is the totality of a person's learned, accumulated experience which is socially transmitted, or more briefly, behavior through social learning.
A culture is a way of life of a group of people--the behaviors, beliefs, values, and symbols that they accept, generally without thinking about them, and that are passed along by communication and imitation from one generation to the next.
Culture is symbolic communication. Some of its symbols include a group's skills, knowledge, attitudes, values, and motives. The meanings of the symbols are learned and deliberately perpetuated in a society through its institutions.
Culture consists of patterns, explicit and implicit, of and for behavior acquired and transmitted by symbols, constituting the distinctive achievement of human groups, including their embodiments in artifacts; the essential core of culture consists of traditional ideas and especially their attached values; culture systems may, on the one hand, be considered as products of action, on the other hand, as conditioning influences upon further action.
Culture is the sum of total of the learned behavior of a group of people that are generally considered to be the tradition of that people and are transmitted from generation to generation.
Culture is a collective programming of the mind that distinguishes the members of one group or category of people from another.
Nifan it is a genuiene question I am interested to hear peoples views on this topic, I'm not on the wind-up.
QuoteNifan it is a genuiene question I am interested to hear peoples views on this topic, I'm not on the wind-up.
I appreciate that, and i wasnt really refering to you particularly.
I just know that people will claim there is no culture because they dont associate with it. I dont particulalry associate with it either, but i wouldn't go so far as to claim it isnt culture.
Main Street
QuoteAs Culture is defined
Orange Order is not a culture, it is a tradition like the Masons or the KKK.
Where is it defined what culture is and how it is different to what exists here? I asked how it was defined and you have given nothing to indicate it.
One definition I can find is:
Quotethe behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group
is there nothing here that can be described as such.
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 05:02:36 PM
Main Street
QuoteAs Culture is defined
Orange Order is not a culture, it is a tradition like the Masons or the KKK.
Where is it defined what culture is and how it is different to what exists here? I asked how it was defined and you have given nothing to indicate it.
One definition I can find is:
Quotethe behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group
is there nothing here that can be described as such.
I don't know what you are getting at Nifan with chopping up my post..
When I posted, I was not answering you.
I was just posting an opinion about culture
I hadn't read your post before replying.
I don't know where the ultimate definition of culture is.
I know what definitions I think make more sense to me than others.
You are a smart lad, post what you think fits best.
As I said re Unionist culture
"As culture goes there isn't much to it.
Unless I am missing something with the depth of tradition of Unionist Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports"Culture is a human expression and it materialises, amongst other things, in those areas.
As I wrote I do not see any depth to substantiate a bona fide Unionist culture.
If you think there is a tangible Unionist culture then feel free to add to the thread.
On the point of culture - agreeing with what you like.
I disagree :)
I cant stand sean nos singing, but its valid culture
I don't like O´Casey plays but it's valid.
Quote from: Main Street on July 03, 2008, 05:39:39 PM
I don't know what you are getting at Nifan with chopping up my post..
When I posted, I was not answering you.
I was just posting an opinion about culture
I hadn't read your post before replying.
Im getting at nothing - I didnt chop it up - i posted one point you made, and asked a question on it.
I also posted what i felt was one reasonable definition of culture that I think "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist" communities could purport to have.
Do you not think think that examples such as parades, bonfires and flute and pipe bands can count as culture?
Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM
Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.
Dance, Music and Sport. - Same as it's been for quite a while now!
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM
Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?
Traditional Music ;Gaelic Games: Irish language ; climbing Croagh Patrick and the one that really marks out Irish Culture -bonfires on the 23 rd of June - not 11th July or Halloween. ;)
QuoteCan anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?
Is this a serious question? Youd surely have to concede gaelic etc as culture.
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 06:28:12 PM
I'm getting at nothing - I didnt chop it up - i posted one point you made, and asked a question on it.
I also posted what i felt was one reasonable definition of culture that I think "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist" communities could purport to have.
Do you not think think that examples such as parades, bonfires and flute and pipe bands can count as culture?
I did not read one definition of culture that you wrote, could you repeat it please?
As I said or would have said to your example, they are not very deep, just scratching on the surface of the hundreds of years that go into culture.
Hardly more relevant to culture than wren boys, marble season or Bodenstown marches. Aspects of a tradition, expression or confirmation of a political belief.
AFAIU there is some aspiration or affirmation to be British and some people are trying to say that the varied expression of that is culture.
Culture is the finest expression of our existence as seen in Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports amongst many things.
For example, Fiddle music is a culture, Clare, Sligo, Donegal all have their distinct recognisable styles, I have yet to come across a Unionist style of playing.
There is a unionist/orange style of flute playing, then again there is also an orange style of shouting f*ck the pope which they also try to pass off as culture.
Main street.
As i said one of several definitions i came across.
Quotethe behaviors and beliefs characteristic of a particular social, ethnic, or age group
As for your point that they elements i mentioned are "just scratching on the surface of the hundreds of years that go into culture". I am actually unsure what to make of that - are you saying that culture requires hundreds of years to become such?
QuoteAFAIU there is some aspiration or affirmation to be British and some people are trying to say that the varied expression of that is culture.
Is the fact that the peoples we are talking about have that aspiration make any less of their culture, or reason for their culture, than the aspiration of those irish people which has helped shape their culture over a long period of time.
The fact is that the history and hopes of the people have the biggest influence on their culture.
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 08:20:47 PM
are you saying that culture requires hundreds of years to become such?
No
QuoteIs the fact that the peoples we are talking about have that aspiration make any less of their culture, or reason for their culture, than the aspiration of those irish people which has helped shape their culture over a long period of time.
I don't understand that question.
QuoteThe fact is that the history and hopes of the people have the biggest influence on their culture.
History could mean every event that has happened in the past :-\
It's not just the historical event, like most things in life it is the response to events which defines character.
Culture is the expression. Culture is expressed in many different ways. In the Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports etc.
Like that 9 part program (on tonight on the BBC NI) called Blas Ceoil, celebrating the 400th anniversary of the Flight of the Earls.
That is a historical event which changed the course of Irish history to its core but the culture of its celebration is expressed in the form of wonderfull music from compositons dated from that time, performed to the highest standards.
Are you not mixing up the questions of Orange Order parades and Unionists culture?
I have written about my opinions.
With Unionists as an ethnic group, if you talk about evidence of Cultural expression, what I want to see something that distinguishes that ethnic group, something that I can say - yes that is Unionist culture. I don't see it. I see an ethnic group that wants to remain British, I do not see any culture, as I understand culture to be, around that.
If you talk about the Orange Order tradition of marches and parades as an expression of Unionist culture then fine. I don't rate it as high you do to classify it as culture.
As cultural expressions go, it penetrates little beyond its history of intolerance, bigotry, sectarianism and arrogance.
And that just faced with persistent public abhorrence and ridicule, it has cleaned up a good deal of its act to have a jovial lick of paint.
I am entitled to my opinion when I say it doesn't scratch the surface of what is culture, that is my considered opinion on the matter.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM
Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century? From what I can see it is mostly Latte, Eastenders, Big Brother, Coldplay, getting pissed, sticking stupid accessories on to small hatchbacks etc etc. Much the same as the rest of western Europe with small variations. There are certain things unique to Irish people both orange and green but to me Dublin and Belfast aren't that different from most big Eiropean cities I have been in. Apart from the shit weather and above average proportion of ropey looking women.
the only thing i take issue with you there is the ropey women bit, i think the place is full of babes. when i was in my 20's we were all ugly. as for irish culture it exists but there are very few practicing it if you know what i mean
QuoteThat is a historical event which changed the course of Irish history to its core but the culture of its celebration is expressed in the form of wonderfull music from compositons dated from that time, performed to the highest standards.
If the music wasnt wonderful would it not still be culture?
QuoteAre you not mixing up the questions of Orange Order parades and Unionists culture?
No, this thread is "Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture" so im pretty sure parades would come under that banner.
The fact that you dont rate it seems to be your criteria for not counting it as culture. I think that it is culture - good or bad. Distaste for something doesnt make something "not culture" in my opinion.
Of course you are entitled to your opinion, im just wondering what forms your opinion. Why sport is culture but parades arent for example. I really dont feel like youve explained what makes culture, but fair enough.
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 03, 2008, 10:09:49 AM
Quote from: EC Unique on July 03, 2008, 09:58:07 AM
Quote from: An Fear Rua on July 03, 2008, 09:54:16 AM
why dont the 95% do something about it then??
What do you suggest?
I would suggest that you look at forming a committee/public forum/group or similar to investigate the legal precedent if any to apply to have these stopped as they are unwelcome, and if that fails move to the next stage...Maybe ask your parents how their generation went about raising their concerns....
Aye but it shouldn't be up to the locals to do this - its beyond time for the majority of protestants to tell these clowns to dry up and blow away.
It used to be traditional to burn folk at the stake, time for this stone age claptrappery to die out too.
Lets stir up, on an almost monthly basis through the summer, centuries of sectarian hatred and strife that the rest of Europe has long past put in the bin - its a real bad joke and its hard to believe theres so many in on it......why should all of us be tarred and have to live through that shite to keep a shower of bitter old bastards in bowlers hats happy,
Can any unionists out there tell us the reasoning behind this aul annual poking of the fire that most of ye give tacit support to?
Why do so many go and stand round bonfires - the majority of whom can't even spell Boyne Valley - then show the world the poison the next day with the "No Surrender" tripe from Edenderry, Who exactly is asking for your surrrender?
Bornfires on the 11th July with Irish flag aloft or with effigys of dead catholic children burning!! Flying union jack and UDA flags on every lampost
Marching in areas where they are not welcome, to music that nobody really likes,
This has been passed off as culture for years by many unionist politicians which is bullshit, but really its a clear manifestation of sectarian hatred and prejudice.
There is a legitimate culture of literature, music and arts in the province but unfortunately there are few who are aware of it or do not basically give a shite about it as its non political and non sectarian!!
I also agree that in modern Ireland there is a danger that some areas of our heritage and traditions may be lost, but guess this is happening across Europe as society has changed so rapidly over past 20 years.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 03, 2008, 07:22:36 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM
Can anyone give me an idea of what "Irish" culture is in the 21st century?
Traditional Music ;Gaelic Games: Irish language ; climbing Croagh Patrick and the one that really marks out Irish Culture -bonfires on the 23 rd of June - not 11th July or Halloween. ;)
Since when was a language a culture? Is the French or German language a culture? How many people make the journey to Croagh Patrick each year? I've been on bigger sponsored walks.
Quote from: magickingdom on July 03, 2008, 10:51:36 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 06:34:28 PM
as for irish culture it exists but there are very few practicing it if you know what i mean
Bang on the head there. The majority of us are more immersed in Anglo-American culture than we like to admit. I cannot think of one thing Irish/Northern Irish or whatever I can call my own. I have little interest in any sort of trad music (although I am starting to lean a bit towards American folk), no interest in any sport outside soccer and bar the news and reading the Belfast Telegraph I don't watch any locally produced TV or read any local newspapers. I have read a handful of local authors but 95% of what I have read is from America. I'm not saying I am right, or that anyone else is wrong but in reality I don't see much in the way of unique Irish culture of any sort around me.
Quote from: nifan on July 03, 2008, 11:30:22 PM
If the music wasnt wonderful would it not still be culture?
It wouldn't be a wonderful expression of culture, would it?
QuoteThe fact that you dont rate it seems to be your criteria for not counting it as culture. I think that it is culture - good or bad. Distaste for something doesnt make something "not culture" in my opinion.
I have given my reasons on which I base my opinions. Personal distaste is not an issue.
I have already stated CLEARLY that there is stuff I
really don't like personally but I still regard as culture.
I hope I don't have to write that again.
But you never know, probably will have to repeat that again on page 7.
QuoteOf course you are entitled to your opinion, im just wondering what forms your opinion. Why sport is culture but parades arent for example. I really dont feel like youve explained what makes culture, but fair enough
.
I think I have gone out of my way to explain myself pretty good.
I am not going to write a book on the subject.
Look for ways to expand your own awareness rather than spend your energy engaged in an endless nitpick debate figuring out a hundred different ways why you don't rate my explanations.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 11:53:46 PM
Since when was a language a culture? Is the French or German language a culture? How many people make the journey to Croagh Patrick each year? I've been on bigger sponsored walks.
You've raised a couple of valid questions. Language is not Culture in itself, but is one of the most important aspects of a nation's culture. For us the Gaelic Language is one aspect of our culture as is hurling, traditional music or that unique style of Irish singing without musical accompaniment, not far removed from North African (especially Algerian) or even Indian styles whence it may have derived through trading in the Middle Ages. Even our interpretation and use of the English language is uniquely Irish in some respects due to our usage. Phraseology such as "I'm/was after (do)ing (something)" eg. "I'm/was after telling him to hurry up". It can be directly related to an Irish language word usage. There are a whole plethora of examples similar to this. Our thatched cottages are part of our culture as they reflect the economic times of years gone by, as is the case in Japan.
Likewise, religion is part of the overall culture of a country. Shintoism is unique to Japan. Aspects of the religion can be found in daily life and has influenced the overall culture of the country. Similiarly with Taoism and Confucionism and Buddhism in China. The pilgrimage to Croagh Patrick or to Lough Derg is primarily religious which just happens to be associated with Catholic Ireland. The Japanese are encouraged to climb Mt.Fuji once in their lives (an old Japanese proverb says s/he he who climbs Fuji-san twice is a fool...either that or they have a very high boredom threshold) as it is a sacred Shinto site. French Catholics in the village of Les Saints Maries de la Mer in the Camargue region have a sacred festival which is unique to their region where statues of the Blessed Virgin and Mary Magdalene are carried out of the sea and onto land, supposedly depicting the arrival on French shores of these two individuals after the Crucifixion of Christ. It doesn't mean every Catholic in the world is aware of it or is obliged to partake in it.
Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia are the polar opposites to North African muslims who in turn are very dissimilar to Bosnians. Again this is down in many ways to the physical environs these people have stemmed from.
It pains me to hear the bowler-hat brigade (with tracksuit-clad lackies in tow) ranting on about how their Protestant Orange cultural rights are being "trampled over". (Perhaps they should take the mirror and look over their shoulders and see the damage their jackboot-style of "culture" has inflicted on the six counties.) There is no such thing as Protestant Culture just as there is no such thing as Catholic, Buddhist, Islamic, Jewish or whatever other "culture". Too many people confuse religion and culture.
Sadly there is an ever increasing use of the term "the country of Northern Ireland" (sic). It is not a country in the international sense of the word and never will be, certainly not in my lifetime. It's almost as if the media is drip-feeding our psyches with this notion in the hope that eventually the listener/viewer/reader will become so immune to the actual implications of the term (having heard it so much and not having thought about it) that s/he will just roll over and accept it. Likewise the whole saccharin-sweet image of the Orange parades on TV. FFS, do we see the KKK having their annual hate-fest blasted all over the media? No.
Quote from: Main Street on July 04, 2008, 12:11:52 AM
QuoteThe fact that you dont rate it seems to be your criteria for not counting it as culture. I think that it is culture - good or bad. Distaste for something doesnt make something "not culture" in my opinion.
I have given my reasons on which I base my opinions. Personal distaste is not an issue.
I have already stated CLEARLY that there is stuff I really don't like personally but I still regard as culture.
I hope I don't have to write that again.
But you never know, probably will have to repeat that again on page 7.
Yes and i read your comment. However your comments on the alleged culture imply a distatste for it, that you dont "rate it highly".
Dont get me wrong I havent got the time of day for parades, but they are still a cultural phenomena with a large turnout, and occur around the world in small numbers as well as in the north.
there is little point arguing, we obviously have different opinions on what culture means - i believe that culture is warts and all, not simply the best of "Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports etc."
Phenomenon
Ivan Little has a problem with that.
A big well done to whoever burnt down the Milltown bonfire!
only a small matter but would it be more accurate to say "Ulster Scot" culture rather than Unionist culture. As I would think that in the same sense there is no Republican culture, but there is Irish culture, not that the 2 are anyway inherently linked.
Quote from: nifan on July 04, 2008, 10:23:58 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 04, 2008, 12:11:52 AM
QuoteThe fact that you dont rate it seems to be your criteria for not counting it as culture. I think that it is culture - good or bad. Distaste for something doesnt make something "not culture" in my opinion.
I have given my reasons on which I base my opinions. Personal distaste is not an issue.
I have already stated CLEARLY that there is stuff I really don't like personally but I still regard as culture.
I hope I don't have to write that again.
But you never know, probably will have to repeat that again on page 7.
Yes and i read your comment. However your comments on the alleged culture imply a distatste for it, that you dont "rate it highly".
Dont get me wrong I havent got the time of day for parades, but they are still a cultural phenomena with a large turnout, and occur around the world in small numbers as well as in the north.
there is little point arguing, we obviously have different opinions on what culture means - i believe that culture is warts and all, not simply the best of "Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports etc."
Yes NI fan there is little point in debating when you are quick to repeat that shite.
As I said, I knew I would have to repeat this line, but so soon?
I have said before that my personal taste does not come into it.
Alluding to that I have said that
´culture is a best of´ is just rank stupid at this stage.
Did anyone see on the news last nite where an 11th night bonefire had been lit premature and caused traffic delays in Belfast. I drove past that bonefire last sunday and seen the hard working locals building at it and thought wouldn't it be great if that was lit before the 12th. What sickin me was the fact that the news reporter was not asking how these pile's of shite are allowed to be built, but instead it was all about who is responible for the safety of them. Was nearly going to throw the TV out.
irish news says arsonists....god bless them
Its quite a scarey experience walking past the bonfires while they're being 'guarded'
Quote from: Main Street on July 04, 2008, 12:10:06 PM
Alluding to that I have said that ´culture is a best of´ is just rank stupid at this stage.
I apologise.
That is what I took form the comment
QuoteCulture is the finest expression of our existence as seen in Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports amongst many things.
Quote from: nifan on July 04, 2008, 01:34:14 PM
I apologise.
That is what I took form the comment
QuoteCulture is the finest expression of our existence as seen in Arts, Theatre, Literature, Music and Sports amongst many things.
As you can read
that says, the finest expression of our existence as seen in Arts etc
Not expression as seen in the finest of arts etc. according to my taste.
I have stated that my personal taste does not come into it.
Did the Flight of the Earls come in for any important attention in regards to your Ulster history as was taught in school?
OK main street.
Aye we covered the flight of the earls. We covered loads of irish history in fact. Whats your point here?
QuoteThe term [culture] was first used in this way by the pioneer English Anthropologist Edward B. Tylor in his book, Primitive Culture, published in 1871. Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."
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19% Yes
81% No
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/YOUR-VIEWS-Should-the-Twelfth.4254293.jp
Quote from: nifan on July 04, 2008, 02:08:15 PM
QuoteThe term [culture] was first used in this way by the pioneer English Anthropologist Edward B. Tylor in his book, Primitive Culture, published in 1871. Tylor said that culture is "that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, law, morals, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society."
The quote from Tyler is
"Culture, or civilization taken in its broad, ethnographic sense, is that complex whole which includes knowledge, belief, art, morals, law, custom, and any other capabilities and habits acquired by man as a member of society"One could even say the KKK are culture personified and find some line somewhere from Primitive Culture to give that idea some validity.
Or that culture is every possible expression of human kind at every given time.
But fortunatly Tyler subscribed to the theory of survivals and went on his book to explain that
as we evolve, as society evolves, some customs are still practiced that are not necessary, like outworn or useless baggage.
Someone somewhere could use that line to decry a load of stuff, couldn't they?
QuoteAye we covered the flight of the earls. We covered loads of irish history in fact. Whats your point here?
Just curious.
I agree that as" we evolve, as society evolves, some customs are still practiced that are not necessary, like outworn or useless baggage."
But i still believe that even the things that perhaps should be consigned to the dustbin can be classed as culture - even if it is useless. Traditional practices by a group of people are part of their culture, and that is certainly what orange marches for example are.
I dont believe that being part of a culture gives something legitimacy by the way. Slavery was a part of many differnet peoples cultures in the past, and was certainly wrong.
Can I ask where you stand on terms like "youth culture" for example as a description of the practices of a group.
As for the flight of the earls etc in history - as i say we covered the history of ireland from the earliest points, and covered all the major events such as this. Covered about 1/3rd my gcse history - the other components being history of medicine and germany from pre ww1 to the end of ww2.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 03, 2008, 11:53:46 PM
How many people make the journey to Croagh Patrick each year? I've been on bigger sponsored walks.
Thousands do "the Reek" on the last Sunday in July every year ya haythen.
Those statistics really show how bigoted and backward they are!!!
previously this 'culture' included
marching around nationalist areas, marching to disrupt local nationalists carrying out everyday life, assisting the army/ruc
in breaking glass bottles and 'arranging' it around GAA pitches between midnight and 4am, assisted intimidation of nationalists,
attempting to create a new 'language (alstar skats - which is a the witterings of some uneducated orange yokel with a
bad accent), assisted oppression of nationalists, refusing to share power, refusing to negotiate with nationalists,
triumphalism, lambeg drums, being part of murder gangs along with ruc and brit army /sas members, organised assasinations
of nationalists, king billy, closet homosexuals and kincora-esque cover-ups, racism, homophobia, kids names
straight out of the bible, never crossing the border to go south (until the south had money), about three songs in their
musical repetoire (the sash has a great tune though), reading porno mags and weightlifting,shirtlifting, c company
and drug running, assisting top ruc man to peddle drugs and run largest vice ring in northwest europe,
and seems like these are thankfully being abandoned slowly - with the marching/bonfire stuff being the last blockade towards them joining normal society. Maybe there are a few aspects of orange/unionist 'culture' that can be brought with them, but I am at a loss to see or know what these might be ?
quite a rant lynchboy, and seemingly your view of all unionists.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 12:07:42 PM
previously this 'culture' included
marching around nationalist areas, marching to disrupt local nationalists carrying out everyday life, assisting the army/ruc
in breaking glass bottles and 'arranging' it around GAA pitches between midnight and 4am, assisted intimidation of nationalists,
attempting to create a new 'language (alstar skats - which is a the witterings of some uneducated orange yokel with a
bad accent), assisted oppression of nationalists, refusing to share power, refusing to negotiate with nationalists,
triumphalism, lambeg drums, being part of murder gangs along with ruc and brit army /sas members, organised assasinations
of nationalists, king billy, closet homosexuals and kincora-esque cover-ups, racism, homophobia, kids names
straight out of the bible, never crossing the border to go south (until the south had money), about three songs in their
musical repetoire (the sash has a great tune though), reading porno mags and weightlifting,shirtlifting, c company
and drug running, assisting top ruc man to peddle drugs and run largest vice ring in northwest europe,
and seems like these are thankfully being abandoned slowly - with the marching/bonfire stuff being the last blockade towards them joining normal society. Maybe there are a few aspects of orange/unionist 'culture' that can be brought with them, but I am at a loss to see or know what these might be ?
Thank you. I will be sure to quote this when someone brings up 'bigotry' in future
It's a classic. Vile, utterly vile and dripping with prejudice and indeed naked hatred. But a classic of its kind and the sort of thing people should be reminded exists.
Leaving aside lynchbhoy's bile now.
The question isn't a good one because of its construction. There's no 'unionist culture' any more than there is 'nationalist culture'. there is however Ulster Protestant or Ulster-British culture as there is Irish Catholic culture or Irish Gaelic culture.
And yes, to refer back to Orior, some of this means tapping into the mainstream of British culture (unsurprising given the identification with Britishness and the background of the community in a fusion mainly of people of Scottish and English ethnicity). Shakespeare, Remembrance, Burns, etc. Other parts of it are more unique to the 'Ulster-British' community. I wonder do many of the posters on here exclude the works of say Louis MacNiece or CS Lewis? Do scientific achievements of a members of a community count as part of its culture? Think of Lord Kelvin or Frank Pantridge. Then there's modern music and 'pop culture'. Are the Charlatans part of modern Irish culture. Think of Snow Patrol. Then there's more 'traditional' music, which believe it or not also exists outside of the Catholic/nationalist community.
Identification with a 'diaspora' and it's achievements? Part of 'Irish Catholic' culture, perhaps. As it is with for example Armenian culture. Look at the identification with those of Scots-Irish origin, for example with the American Declaration of Independence and the Revoluationary War.
Interesting that in previous posts Catholic religiosity has been seen as part of a cultural milieu. Surely then the same has to be conceded for Protestant religiosity, in its various kinds? Ulster Presbyterianism, in its many experiences and forms (good and bad) must feature - for example the narrative of 'dissent' or 'nonconformism'. And the non-'ascendancy' part of Irish Anglicanism. Not to mention the various small denominations and sects down to little gospel halls.
There's history and its inter-meshing with mythology. The First World War and the idea of sacrifice; the Williamite wars especially the Siege of Derry; and many more are part of an Ulster Protestant narrative just as there is an Irish Catholic narrative.
All depends on what you want to include in the rather vague label 'culture'. It strikes me that some want to set the parameters in terms of how they can best denigrate the other community, which is very sad.
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
Quote from: MW on July 05, 2008, 06:39:01 PM
Leaving aside lynchbhoy's bile now.
The question isn't a good one because of its construction. There's no 'unionist culture' any more than there is 'nationalist culture'. there is however Ulster Protestant or Ulster-British culture as there is Irish Catholic culture or Irish Gaelic culture.
And yes, to refer back to Orior, some of this means tapping into the mainstream of British culture (unsurprising given the identification with Britishness and the background of the community in a fusion mainly of people of Scottish and English ethnicity). Shakespeare, Remembrance, Burns, etc. Other parts of it are more unique to the 'Ulster-British' community. I wonder do many of the posters on here exclude the works of say Louis MacNiece or CS Lewis? Do scientific achievements of a members of a community count as part of its culture? Think of Lord Kelvin or Frank Pantridge. Then there's modern music and 'pop culture'. Are the Charlatans part of modern Irish culture. Think of Snow Patrol. Then there's more 'traditional' music, which believe it or not also exists outside of the Catholic/nationalist community.
Identification with a 'diaspora' and it's achievements? Part of 'Irish Catholic' culture, perhaps. As it is with for example Armenian culture. Look at the identification with those of Scots-Irish origin, for example with the American Declaration of Independence and the Revoluationary War.
Interesting that in previous posts Catholic religiosity has been seen as part of a cultural milieu. Surely then the same has to be conceded for Protestant religiosity, in its various kinds? Ulster Presbyterianism, in its many experiences and forms (good and bad) must feature - for example the narrative of 'dissent' or 'nonconformism'. And the non-'ascendancy' part of Irish Anglicanism. Not to mention the various small denominations and sects down to little gospel halls.
There's history and its inter-meshing with mythology. The First World War and the idea of sacrifice; the Williamite wars especially the Siege of Derry; and many more are part of an Ulster Protestant narrative just as there is an Irish Catholic narrative.
All depends on what you want to include in the rather vague label 'culture'. It strikes me that some want to set the parameters in terms of how they can best denigrate the other community, which is very sad.
The difference is that one was almost deliberately constructed so as to be artificial, perhaps none so more elucidated by a look at a map. Changing the names of things doesn't really constitute a major difference. I fondly recall ulster-scots dancing being at the festival once. See: Ulster-Scots, etc.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
That the tings in your list happened is one thing.
That, lets say "shirtlifting" (classy term by the way) is part of unionist culture is baffling. The fact that your list states your opinion on the whole group is quite interesting, and backs up some of the rhetoric youve come out with in the past.
Quote from: nifan on July 05, 2008, 06:54:54 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
That the tings in your list happened is one thing.
That, lets say "shirtlifting" (classy term by the way) is part of unionist culture is baffling.
And he also lists "homophobia". Go figure ::)
Quote
The fact that your list states your opinion on the whole group is quite interesting, and backs up some of the rhetoric youve come out with in the past.
Sets out his virulent bigotry in pretty stark terms, indeed.
Quote from: stibhan on July 05, 2008, 06:46:50 PM
The difference is that one was almost deliberately constructed so as to be artificial, perhaps none so more elucidated by a look at a map.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand this sentence. Can you explain?
Quote
Changing the names of things doesn't really constitute a major difference.
I don't really understand what you mean by this comment either.
Quote
I fondly recall ulster-scots dancing being at the festival once.
I don't know whether Scottish dancing evolved into particular forms in Ulster. If it didn't, your issue seems to be mainly with the label applied.bv
Quote
See: Ulster-Scots, etc.
there's been a lot said about Ulster Scots on this thread and indeed derision is the default reaction here. But I'd ask you and other to look past the faults of some of those involved in its promotion in Northern Ireland, and take a look at the historical context of Scots.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm
http://www.scotslanguage.com/
http://www.rampantscotland.com/gaelic.htm
http://www.lallans.co.uk/
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
I have yet to see in this thread what Unionist culture is or Ulster Protestant culture is.
The only thing of substance so far presented is of the shape and form of celebrating British identity through the Orange Order.
A very limited and often backward negative expression of identity.
What else is there with this Unionist Ulster Protestant cultural identity as evidenced in the general cultural expressions.
Nationalist is not a culture, Irish/Gaelic is the culture that nationalists tend to identify with.
Nationalist is an identity which incorporates Gaelic culture.
What can we say about the Unionists?
If a Unionist says that as well as being British they concede that they are Irish, as in born in Northers Ireland what exactly does that Irish identity mean?
Is it just place of birth thing?
Id be certain I have heard SF members talking of Irish nationalist culture.
If this dialogue was started in a naive attempt to develop a better understanding of what the unionist viewpoint is regarding the basis question then it's clear to see that such introspection looks like it will never happen.
Yes...alot of Irish feel that externally, the unionist tradition has nothing culturally worthwhile going for it. We feel anyone from the outside looking in on it would fail to appreciate and enjoy it. Now it is also true that we critise the unionist traditions in a very self righteous way and as a result are never going to get the right type of confident response from those in the unionist community who may very well feel that the unionist tradition has more positives to offer the whole community than we think.
I'd like to get a response from someone who was prepared to give such a reply and convince the naysayers that we are indeed the blinkered ones
Quote from: Main Street on July 06, 2008, 02:02:57 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
I have yet to see in this thread what Unionist culture is or Ulster Protestant culture is.
The only thing of substance so far presented is of the shape and form of celebrating British identity through the Orange Order.
So you just ignored my post then, presumably? ::)
Quote from: MW on July 06, 2008, 01:48:06 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 05, 2008, 06:46:50 PM
The difference is that one was almost deliberately constructed so as to be artificial, perhaps none so more elucidated by a look at a map.
I'm afraid I don't quite understand this sentence. Can you explain?
Quote
Changing the names of things doesn't really constitute a major difference.
I don't really understand what you mean by this comment either.
Quote
I fondly recall ulster-scots dancing being at the festival once.
I don't know whether Scottish dancing evolved into particular forms in Ulster. If it didn't, your issue seems to be mainly with the label applied.bv
Quote
See: Ulster-Scots, etc.
there's been a lot said about Ulster Scots on this thread and indeed derision is the default reaction here. But I'd ask you and other to look past the faults of some of those involved in its promotion in Northern Ireland, and take a look at the historical context of Scots.
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm
http://www.scotslanguage.com/
http://www.rampantscotland.com/gaelic.htm
http://www.lallans.co.uk/
I'm not good at this quoting stuff, it's all a bit complex, so:
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
-Changing names, nomenclature, christening. Think about it- I just gave an example of what I saw as Irish dancing called Ulster-Scots traditional dancing. Ulster in itself has been sandpapered into 6 counties by the collective short memories of several Unionist politicians. The dialect of North Antrim has been given a name as a language that is in terms of cultural worth incomparable to the ancient Gaelic tongue of the indigenous population, but supposedly deserves a "parity of esteem" alongside the same.
Derision isn't the default reaction here, it's the default reaction practically everywhere in the civilised world. I've actually been well acquainted with the Scots language given that I have studied linguistics at a tertiary level, as well as Scots Literature such as Robert Burns, involving questions as to whether Scots in itself is a proper language.
But Ulster-Scots is just a ludicrous attempt at glorifying a dialect- which isn't to say that the individual dialect in itself is insignificant, it's just that it doesn't constitute a separate language. The fact that the word "wee dafties" was roundly assumed to be a phrase for children with learning difficulties may have in fact been a complete myth (or may not have), but such a phrase encapsulates the ludicrous nature of the language perfectly. A cursory glance at a vocabulary list for the language gives you phonetic examples of what sound like the English language thrown through the wood chipper of a Ballymena accent.
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
Overwhelmingly yes, but in reality no. Liam Logan, Stoop candidate in the last assembly election is a "famous" Ulster Scots enthusiast. As for three counties of Ulster being ignored by certain Unionists on the whole yes, but I'm sure very few of those who ignore those counties were in Rosnowlagh at the weekend. Things are not as black and white as some people like to think. Personally I think the whole Ulster Scots thing is a load of bollocks, but then I think the whole diddly-dee thing is a load of bollocks too. That's all a matter of taste, which doesn't make anyone a better or worse person for liking it or not.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 06, 2008, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
Overwhelmingly yes, but in reality no. Liam Logan, Stoop candidate in the last assembly election is a "famous" Ulster Scots enthusiast. As for three counties of Ulster being ignored by certain Unionists on the whole yes, but I'm sure very few of those who ignore those counties were in Rosnowlagh at the weekend. Things are not as black and white as some people like to think. Personally I think the whole Ulster Scots thing is a load of bollocks, but then I think the whole diddly-dee thing is a load of bollocks too. That's all a matter of taste, which doesn't make anyone a better or worse person for liking it or not.
I don't really think you disagreed with anything I said. Individual examples could merely be put forward as the exception to the rule, a scenario which my comments more than cater for. I wouldn't necessarily call the SDLP nationalist, either.
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:19:08 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 06, 2008, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
Overwhelmingly yes, but in reality no. Liam Logan, Stoop candidate in the last assembly election is a "famous" Ulster Scots enthusiast. As for three counties of Ulster being ignored by certain Unionists on the whole yes, but I'm sure very few of those who ignore those counties were in Rosnowlagh at the weekend. Things are not as black and white as some people like to think. Personally I think the whole Ulster Scots thing is a load of bollocks, but then I think the whole diddly-dee thing is a load of bollocks too. That's all a matter of taste, which doesn't make anyone a better or worse person for liking it or not.
I don't really think you disagreed with anything I said. Individual examples could merely be put forward as the exception to the rule, a scenario which my comments more than cater for. I wouldn't necessarily call the SDLP nationalist, either.
If the SDLP are not nationalist what are they then?
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 06, 2008, 07:09:59 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:19:08 PM
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 06, 2008, 06:17:02 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
Overwhelmingly yes, but in reality no. Liam Logan, Stoop candidate in the last assembly election is a "famous" Ulster Scots enthusiast. As for three counties of Ulster being ignored by certain Unionists on the whole yes, but I'm sure very few of those who ignore those counties were in Rosnowlagh at the weekend. Things are not as black and white as some people like to think. Personally I think the whole Ulster Scots thing is a load of bollocks, but then I think the whole diddly-dee thing is a load of bollocks too. That's all a matter of taste, which doesn't make anyone a better or worse person for liking it or not.
I don't really think you disagreed with anything I said. Individual examples could merely be put forward as the exception to the rule, a scenario which my comments more than cater for. I wouldn't necessarily call the SDLP nationalist, either.
If the SDLP are not nationalist what are they then?
Post-Nationalist, in some people 's view. What I meant by that is that not all SDLP members would be considered nationalists. A lot of them would be more or less unionists.
Quote from: nifan on July 06, 2008, 02:38:24 PM
Id be certain I have heard SF members talking of Irish nationalist culture.
And because a SF member might have been heard talking about it would make it so true ::)
There is a context I suppose
when culture is used to express nationalist ideas,
or Irish culture can be used to awaken national conscience or national pride.
There is a term cultural nationalism used to describe the revival of gaelic culture in the late 1800's.
The national struggle took over Trade Unions, Labour etc
and twas ony natural that militant nationals came into the Gaelic League and the GAA.
Hyde resigned from the Gaelic League when he was overswamped by militant republicans.
The writers and playrights of the vibrant Gaelic League were mainly educated Protestants.
The focus of most was in the national struggle.
As a term today, I do not agree that it applies.
The bit that you read in the preamble to the GAA rulebook dates from that time of Cultural nationalism
Comhaltas, Gael Linn are non political.
Quote from: MW on July 06, 2008, 04:41:06 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 06, 2008, 02:02:57 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 05, 2008, 06:45:41 PM
:D
thats it lads, that culture/tradition never happened ;)
anyhow, pray tell us what culture/tradition do the unionist/oo etc bring to our fair country ?
still yet to see anything credible!
I have yet to see in this thread what Unionist culture is or Ulster Protestant culture is.
The only thing of substance so far presented is of the shape and form of celebrating British identity through the Orange Order.
So you just ignored my post then, presumably? ::)
You rambled on aimlessly as a cloud :)
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
I'm not good at this quoting stuff, it's all a bit complex, so:
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
I don't think 'unionists' do exclude those of Ulster-British or Ulster-Scots heritage outside of Northern Ireland. There's often been a keenness to involve and ihclude those of this background from Donegal/Cavan/Monaghan in cultural/identity issues.
Quote
-Changing names, nomenclature, christening. Think about it- I just gave an example of what I saw as Irish dancing called Ulster-Scots traditional dancing.
You're sure it wasn't Scottish dancing? Can look pretty similar to Irish dancing from my (very limited) experience.
Quote
Ulster in itself has been sandpapered into 6 counties by the collective short memories of several Unionist politicians.
'Ulster' has been a pretty malleable concept throughout history. The old 9-county province was set by an English government (as indeed were the counties themselves). Over on the other side of the 'fence' the Irish government has applied the name 'Ulster' to its three counties, and indeed calls its 26 county state Ireland.
I'm happy to refer to Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland.
Quote
The dialect of North Antrim has been given a name as a language that is in terms of cultural worth incomparable to the ancient Gaelic tongue of the indigenous population, but supposedly deserves a "parity of esteem" alongside the same.
Derision isn't the default reaction here, it's the default reaction practically everywhere in the civilised world. I've actually been well acquainted with the Scots language given that I have studied linguistics at a tertiary level, as well as Scots Literature such as Robert Burns, involving questions as to whether Scots in itself is a proper language.
But Ulster-Scots is just a ludicrous attempt at glorifying a dialect- which isn't to say that the individual dialect in itself is insignificant, it's just that it doesn't constitute a separate language. The fact that the word "wee dafties" was roundly assumed to be a phrase for children with learning difficulties may have in fact been a complete myth (or may not have), but such a phrase encapsulates the ludicrous nature of the language perfectly. A cursory glance at a vocabulary list for the language gives you phonetic examples of what sound like the English language thrown through the wood chipper of a Ballymena accent.
Like yourself I've looked into Scots at tertiary level, in my case through the study of history (wrote my dissertation partly on Scottish national identity and its cultural/social/political components - as well as Welsh identity which incidentally as I saw it was much more heavily culturally based). So I don't understand why having been so acquainted with Scots that you deride its manifestation in Ulster.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 06, 2008, 06:17:02 PM
Personally I think the whole Ulster Scots thing is a load of bollocks, but then I think the whole diddly-dee thing is a load of bollocks too. That's all a matter of taste, which doesn't make anyone a better or worse person for liking it or not.
huh?
O.K. so you don't get either Ulster Scots or the diddly dee thing, but there isn't a man alive who would suggest that "the diddle dee thing" isn't real. Takes a great leap of faith/bigotry ;) to believe that Ulster Scots is a real language.
Would someone please give us narrow minded irish folk a clear understanding of what the unionist culture is and what positives it could bring to the whole community?
Quote from: MW on July 06, 2008, 08:59:04 PM
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 06:05:47 PM
I'm not good at this quoting stuff, it's all a bit complex, so:
-The map issue is pretty self-explanatory. Whilst the Ulster-Scots "culture" is conflated with ideas of unionism and is, more or less, the sole preserve of Unionist politicians rather than nationalist ones, the territory to which both lay claim to is in contradiction of each. Ulster is 9 counties, Unionists by and large reject the 3 Dublin-Controlled ones.
I don't think 'unionists' do exclude those of Ulster-British or Ulster-Scots heritage outside of Northern Ireland. There's often been a keenness to involve and ihclude those of this background from Donegal/Cavan/Monaghan in cultural/identity issues.
Quote
-Changing names, nomenclature, christening. Think about it- I just gave an example of what I saw as Irish dancing called Ulster-Scots traditional dancing.
You're sure it wasn't Scottish dancing? Can look pretty similar to Irish dancing from my (very limited) experience.
Quote
Ulster in itself has been sandpapered into 6 counties by the collective short memories of several Unionist politicians.
'Ulster' has been a pretty malleable concept throughout history. The old 9-county province was set by an English government (as indeed were the counties themselves). Over on the other side of the 'fence' the Irish government has applied the name 'Ulster' to its three counties, and indeed calls its 26 county state Ireland.
I'm happy to refer to Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland.
Quote
The dialect of North Antrim has been given a name as a language that is in terms of cultural worth incomparable to the ancient Gaelic tongue of the indigenous population, but supposedly deserves a "parity of esteem" alongside the same.
Derision isn't the default reaction here, it's the default reaction practically everywhere in the civilised world. I've actually been well acquainted with the Scots language given that I have studied linguistics at a tertiary level, as well as Scots Literature such as Robert Burns, involving questions as to whether Scots in itself is a proper language.
But Ulster-Scots is just a ludicrous attempt at glorifying a dialect- which isn't to say that the individual dialect in itself is insignificant, it's just that it doesn't constitute a separate language. The fact that the word "wee dafties" was roundly assumed to be a phrase for children with learning difficulties may have in fact been a complete myth (or may not have), but such a phrase encapsulates the ludicrous nature of the language perfectly. A cursory glance at a vocabulary list for the language gives you phonetic examples of what sound like the English language thrown through the wood chipper of a Ballymena accent.
Like yourself I've looked into Scots at tertiary level, in my case through the study of history (wrote my dissertation partly on Scottish national identity and its cultural/social/political components - as well as Welsh identity which incidentally as I saw it was much more heavily culturally based). So I don't understand why having been so acquainted with Scots that you deride its manifestation in Ulster.
-To suggest that Unionists attempt to include the 3 counties in everything they do is pretty ludicrous given that the present day forms of the party, the Ulster Unionist and Democratic Unionist Party do not, as far as I can see, stand for election in said counties. Donegal, for example, had a significant amount of Unionist clubs before partition. I believe the phrase used was "Cast aside without one single sign of recollection or recognition," I think by an Anglican Minister in Fermanagh. Now obviously this is ancient history and not exactly in living memory but it does exemplify abandonment akin to that of a sinking ship, which incidentally was a metaphor used pretty freely in relation to such a break at the time.
- I believe the term used was indeed, Ulster-Scots dancing, replete with a very Irish looking costume. Maybe that was the mistake of the announcer but in any case if the two forms of dance are inseparable to the naked eye then one might consider claims of individuality to be shaky at best. I'm not so sure Scots dancing is that popular in Scotland, in fact I've never even really heard of it being a significant part of their culture- are you talking about highland dancing or country dancing, anyway? I do not have a qualification in dance or the study of it, by the way. To paraphrase myself earlier even a cursory glance at me on a dance-floor would tell you more about my alcohol intake than any education in waltzes or more contemporary forms of getting jiggy with it.
-The reason why the 26 counties are called Ireland is more to do with the fact that the government itself claimed to have jurisdiction over the whole Island up until that minor treaty signed on the back of a used Postcard of the Giant's Causeway around 10 years ago, on that day your man nailed himself to the cross, rather than any division between "us" and "them." Most Irish people I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot, lived with a lot, played Football and Soccer with a lot, and went to class with a lot) seem to be of the opinion that I am, indeed, Irish, and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. My passport would nod in agreement if it weren't being passed around the backstreets of Atha Cliath right now.
I in turn am happy to refer to our territory as the following: British-Occupied Ireland, Unionist Ireland, Ulster minus three, Ulst (each letter representing one and a half counties!), The Occupied Six Counties, Six of the Seven Most Northerly Counties on the Island of Ireland, Ulster-Scotland, the bad place, the good place, where George Best came from, and sometimes, just sometimes, North-East Ireland. Northern Ireland for me serves a function in detailing the finer points of Mallon Head, which incidentally extremely Northern, and indeed, in Ireland.
-Linguistically, unless registered as a sub-division of Scots in itself, it isn't a language. You can pass laws all you want but it's akin to passing a law saying that my slurred intonation of English when under the influence of a few pints of Leinster's finest beverage... that's right, Harp... constitutes a new form of communication. Although obviously not the product of a social and cultural legacy like Ulster-Scots is, it's similarly a bastardisation of English. One is tempted to compare the intoxication of me by alcohol to the intoxication of the settlers themselves with grandiose notions of their right to beat taigs down like gophers, but I think it's a leap too far.
My turn of phrase begs the question, though: Is taig an Ulster-Scots word? Read Castle Rackrent by Maria Edgeworth and it has constant reference to some lad called "Thady," an Anglicised form of the word/name Tadhg. Similarly, you may notice that the pejorative "taig" is in itself derived from Teague, in turn an Anglicisation of the same word. Take it away, Seamus:
"Ulster people, according to Rodgers, are 'an abrupt people / who like the spiky consonants of speech / and think the soft ones cissy', and get a kick out of 'anything that gives or takes attack / like Micks, Teagues, tinkers' gets, Vatican'."
Pretty self explanatory, you should think. He goes on to compare the Old English verb for suffering with a colloquialism of his (Catholic!) aunt, then notes:
"What happened was that I found in the glossary to C. L. Wrenn's edition of the poem the Old English word meaning 'to suffer', the word þolian; and although at first it looked completely strange with its thorn symbol instead of the familiar th, I gradually realized that it was not strange at all, for it was the word that older and less educated people would have used in the country where I grew up. 'They'll just have to learn to thole,' my aunt would say about some family who had suffered through an unforeseen bereavement. And now suddenly here was 'thole' in the official textual world, mediated through the apparatus of a scholarly edition, a little bleeper to remind me that my aunt's language was not just a self-enclosed family possession but an historical heritage, one that involved the journey þolian had made north into Scotland and then across unto Ulster with the planters, and then across from the planters to the locals who had originally spoken Irish, and then farther across again when the Scots Irish emigrated to the American South in the eighteenth century. "
So it's a heritage, alright. A melting pot of words and pronunciation, meshed from the twin primordial oozes of modern language on these Isles, Gaelic and Latin, along with the later Germanic, Latin influenced Anglo-Saxon that formed into early English and then early Modern English all the way to that which is spoken on these islands in different dialects. Dialects, though, whilst separate in a number of different ways to each other, are branches of the same family tree of a language in an orchard of trees, some dead and some living. Cut off a branch and it won't survive.
Read this: http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/kerkhoff/DubPoetry/Agard/AgardOxfordDon.html
and it's pretty easy to see what I'm talking about.
You should read Heaney's introduction into Beowulf if you haven't, by the way. It'll enlighten the f**k out of you.
Do people think that a dialect can be cultural?
For example, in america is there a jewish culture, and does it include the particular dialect they use?
while I was a little mischevious in some of the stuff I listed - aiming to provoke a reaction from some of the usual suspects and
'apologists' - successfully too (though plenty of the triumphalism , sectarianism etc etc was seemingly part of the oo/loyalist 'tradition') I still fail to see anything that is a 'culture' from this 'tribe'.
I have tried to think of a few and can only come up with bushmills whiskey, ulster folk park and the ulster (plaguarised) fry.
Marching season is a tradition, but can it really be called a 'cultural' thing?
there has to be some items to add to the above
its great to see that yet again I am 'told' what I think ! Says it all really!
Quoteits great to see that yet again I am 'told' what I think ! Says it all really!
Your one to talk, your never done telling me what i am, what i think, and what my "type" is
Quotethough plenty of the triumphalism , sectarianism etc etc was seemingly part of the oo/loyalist 'tradition
Yes, there was/is plenty of sectarianism there. As there is in your "tradition" as well.
So who makes the first move nifan?
If you can't give us a confident reply then what are we to think? Most people who consider themselves irish very likely are blinkered about what someone with a unionist mindset considers to be his culture, but when given the opertunity to communicate a different perspective and you don't, then is it any wonder?
ah yeah, the old 'sniping from the wings' rubbish from the 'uncle tom'
I dont get a chance to tell the likes of you what 'you think' , yer too busy telling me and the rest of us wha we are thinking etc etc, when trying to manipulate the argument as your ilk have been seemingly taught to do - and you dislke when I point out that this makes you the same as that type and not a 'new independant breed' as you like to pretend or portray.
I dont even think you realise this yourself! Yer a stereotype!
your 'tactic' of chipping into debates with little snippits that more or less say that the nationalists did/do this as well and try to equate everything horrendous about unionist/loyalist/oo/ni football/rangers/b specials/ruc (selct as per debate) is the 'same' or 'like' that sf/GAA/Ireish etc etc have done/are doing also - which they are generally not.
while this is a fairly harmless example of what you constantly do, its not long since you quiped in with this - trying to water down the point of the poster.
Quote from: orangeman on July 06, 2008, 12:22:14 PM
ILUVNI - Away and start oe about Portadown FC / Linfield etc etc etc !
Quote from: nifan
Topics are constantly started about these.
your other examples are effectively defending all bastions of decency like oo/ruc/dup/udr/lvf/uvf/brit army etc etc by comments equating them to 'the other side'
now if you have any decent debate about these things as they come up, how about discussing them , rather than sniping wee quips like the above and then hiding away, and pretending to be 'against' all of the above.
Like I say, I dont think you realise the level of indoctrination you have had and are emitting.
I dont have to say anything like this to the likes of eg solomon kane, as at least that poster is honest and will debate the point honestly. The southern crew dont understand how you and your ilk 'play' it and dont see your otherwise seeingly harmless jibes.
but when you have seen people like you over a lifetime, its easier to spot.
how about being honest and debating like a man from now on instead of this wee sniping!
To answer your post, yes both sides are guilty of all such aspects, but only the oo/unionist side were guilty of enforcing their oppressive ways over hundreds of years, and are still trying to do it (running oo marches through unwilling nationalist areas).
Thats not culture,thats implied intimidation and oppression.
Looks like they really have changed alright! ::)
So far the distinguishing cultural tradition of the British in NI are the historical events about that identity and the continued affirmation of the importance of that identity.
Somebody mentioned Louis McNeice.
It's not a question of somebody who grows up in NI with a protestant background and is good at poetry or song etc like Louis or James Galway.
Anyway Louis, afaik, was born into a home rule protestant family :)
If you'd mention Louis then why not mention the acclaimed Derek Bell or Shaun Davey - especially the obvious 'Relief of Derry Symphony',
they use the medium of (contemporary) trad music.
Van M wrote songs about growing up in Belfast or even acclaimed playwright Maire Jones wrote plays about life in the North.
It is not a question of education or artistic skills, it is just what is it that can be regarded as culture (apart from identity and OO parades) from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distiguishes them from Gaels.
As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 07, 2008, 01:40:36 PM
I dont get a chance to tell the likes of you what 'you think' , yer too busy telling me and the rest of us wha we are thinking etc etc, when trying to manipulate the argument as your ilk have been seemingly taught to do - and you dislke when I point out that this makes you the same as that type and not a 'new independant breed' as you like to pretend or portray.
I dont even think you realise this yourself! Yer a stereotype!
Interestingly, even though you dont get a chance to tell me what i think, you go ahead again and do just that,
You even have the audacity to tell me I dont know what I think. Your a strange lad.
The post you just put up for me was hardly watering down the point of the poster - he didnt have a point.
Quoteyour other examples are effectively defending all bastions of decency like oo/ruc/dup/udr/lvf/uvf/brit army etc etc by comments equating them to 'the other side'
now if you have any decent debate about these things as they come up, how about discussing them , rather than sniping wee quips like the above and then hiding away, and pretending to be 'against' all of the above.
If you have any posts from me defending the LVF or UVF id be interested to hear it. The fact that you accuse me of defending these entities shows your complete misreading of me. When have I ever said anything even remotely positive about such terror groups. You are simply lying now.
As for the DUP you called me a propogandist before, which is still a laugh now.
nifan. Why bother?
Quote from: Main Street on July 07, 2008, 01:50:08 PM
As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.
I'd say thats very true.
Quote from: nifan on July 07, 2008, 02:09:16 PM
nterestingly, even though you dont get a chance to tell me what i think, you go ahead again and do just that,
You even have the audacity to tell me I dont know what I think. Your a strange lad.
The post you just put up for me was hardly watering down the point of the poster - he didnt have a point.
Quoteyour other examples are effectively defending all bastions of decency like oo/ruc/dup/udr/lvf/uvf/brit army etc etc by comments equating them to 'the other side'
now if you have any decent debate about these things as they come up, how about discussing them , rather than sniping wee quips like the above and then hiding away, and pretending to be 'against' all of the above.
If you have any posts from me defending the LVF or UVF id be interested to hear it. The fact that you accuse me of defending these entities shows your complete misreading of me. When have I ever said anything even remotely positive about such terror groups. You are simply lying now.
As for the DUP you called me a propogandist before, which is still a laugh now.
nope you have the tendency to water down or try to undermine other peoples posts or points - the example as I said wasnt a great one, but the last occurrence - and is just an example.
whether you support the dup etc etc is inconsequential, but only you can tell , as your 'snping' of others posts that usually moan that' the other side' (be it gaa, sf, Ireland etc etc) do the 'same' - so it supports the dup/ruc/lvf/oo etc etc even if you dont personally support them. whether you do or not is moot. I just cant fathom whether you are, or just trying to fool yourself though.
Quoteso it supports the dup/ruc/lvf/oo etc etc even if you dont personally support them
Thats just a nonsense statement.
You accused me of supporting them, but now it seems like more of a "my enemies enemy" sort of thing.
However I dont consider the gaa or Ireland etc to be my enemy r anything like it.
Ive always been pretty positive about the GAA certainly, even if some small things I dont agree with. I certainly do not snipe at it.
If you know so much about what my ilk is maybe you could tell me - do i hate catholics for example? do I hate Ireland?
Quote from: nifan on July 07, 2008, 02:30:08 PM
Thats just a nonsense statement.
You accused me of supporting them, but now it seems like more of a "my enemies enemy" sort of thing.
However I dont consider the gaa or Ireland etc to be my enemy r anything like it.
Ive always been pretty positive about the GAA certainly, even if some small things I dont agree with. I certainly do not snipe at it.
If you know so much about what my ilk is maybe you could tell me - do i hate catholics for example? do I hate Ireland?
unlike you , I dont tell you WHAT you think !
I just am pointing out the tactics you use to do so...
dont care what you think, just dont like what you do/use on here all the time
Quoteunlike you , I dont tell you WHAT you think !
But you do. You have often told me this, and based it on reverting to type and what my ilk think like.
If I am as indoctrinated as you say how come only you can notice it, and it doesnt affect my life outside of your opinion on this board.
Quote from: nifan on July 07, 2008, 02:57:40 PM
Quoteunlike you , I dont tell you WHAT you think !
But you do. You have often told me this, and based it on reverting to type and what my ilk think like.
If I am as indoctrinated as you say how come only you can notice it, and it doesnt affect my life outside of your opinion on this board.
who says you do /dont !
it would depend on whether you are being honest with yourself or not, plus the kinds of groups you hang around with.
I dont presume you hang out with a large mainly GAA oriented discussion group down the pub eavch night, with a few unionists tagging along picking arguments and problems with you chipping in with 'qualifying' statements now and again to 'save' your 'friends'.
as for the above ...
what your ilk DO and act like - not telling you what you are thinking! , thats your forte!
Quotechipping in with 'qualifying' statements now and again to 'save' your 'friends'.
I chip in with what I think, not to save friends, whom i dont know.
Ive chipped in to defend the gaa and gaa fans before as well, but you never comment on me saving these "friends", why is that? does anything that doesnt fit in with your views get ignored.
As what people of my ilk DO, please elaborate, what do we do?
Quote from: nifan on July 07, 2008, 04:18:38 PM
Quotechipping in with 'qualifying' statements now and again to 'save' your 'friends'.
I chip in with what I think, not to save friends, whom i dont know.
Ive chipped in to defend the gaa and gaa fans before as well, but you never comment on me saving these "friends", why is that? does anything that doesnt fit in with your views get ignored.
As what people of my ilk DO, please elaborate, what do we do?
:D :D
you find that amusing?
Quote from: Main Street on July 07, 2008, 01:50:08 PM
As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.
I've not bothered to get embroiled in this debate, since it seems for some posters (at least) merely to be an excuse to "bash" the other side - "You have no culture", "My culture's better than yours" etc.
However, I would point to one part of Ulster-Scots/Unionist/Protestant culture which has been overlooked i.e. the military tradition. To quote some random examples, Enniskillen remains the only town in the British Isles to give its name to two British Army Regiments (Dragoons and Fusilleers). And the Somme has a deeply imprinted place in Ulster folk consciousness, which remains to this day. Ulster also produced many eminent Generals during WWII, including Montgomery, Dill, Auchinleck, Alanbrook etc. If you visit the various C of I Cathedrals throughout NI (and Dublin), these usually display various Regimental Colours and tributes, reflected also in the graveyards etc. Similarly, every town seems to have a War Memorial, sometimes several, commemorating not just the two World Wars, but the Boer Wars and others. And people often don't even notice the various Royal British Legion Halls in their towns and villages. Or on a recent BBC NI documentary on the Royal Schools, they pointed out that Dungannon has a thriving Combined Cadet Force. Even today, there are RIR troops fighting out in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus NI people in other Regiments and RAF and RN), with Col. Tim Collins being a particular hero.
I make this point not in order to be contentious - I appreciate that in the context of The Troubles, this can be highly divisive - but it is an undeniable aspect of our culture which means a huge amount to people from my tradition, and which long pre-dates The Troubles and will no doubt endure long after. Which is why, for example, the Poppy Day Massacre was felt so deeply, or why so many Oramgemen cling so dearly to some of their marches (e.g. Drumcree), since these often commemorate much more recent, non-Irish conflicts (e.g Somme) than the Boyne etc. A good illustration is also to be found in "Sam's War", a memoir by Sam McAughtrey, when he recounted his experiences in WWII.
P.S. I was minded to make this point by MS's last point (emboldened), where it could be argued that there is also a tradition of involvement by Irish Nationalists in the British Armed Forces, which presumably stemmed in part from the involvement of their Unionist/Orange/Ulster Scots fellow Irishmen i.e. the other way round to what MS observes. Indeed, McAughtrey makes the point that when they were out fighting in Italy etc, all local differences between Orange and Green etc were quickly forgotten, as Irishmen from both sides of the divide invariably got on better with each other than with their English, Scottish or Welsh fellow soldiers!
Quote from: Main Street on July 07, 2008, 01:50:08 PM
Anyway Louis, afaik, was born into a home rule protestant family :)
It may be a stretch to call MacNeice a unionist, but he was certainly not a nationalist by any means. He had a strongly British viewpoint about many things.
As for Seamus Heaney never tipping a glass to the Queen ;) - we all saw how much of a load of crap that turned out to be, despite his denials.
Like it or not, there is a distinctly Northern Irish culture of literature, drama, comedy, broadcasting etc which is decidedly seperate from that of the Irish Republic. This does not make it Unionist but in being distinctly "Northern Irish" as opposed to "Irish" does it not make it a polar opposite to nationalist culture?
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 07, 2008, 07:47:54 PM
It may be a stretch to call MacNeice a unionist, but he was certainly not a nationalist by any means. He had a strongly British viewpoint about many things.
As for Seamus Heaney never tipping a glass to the Queen ;) - we all saw how much of a load of crap that turned out to be, despite his denials.
Like it or not, there is a distinctly Northern Irish culture of literature, drama, comedy, broadcasting etc which is decidedly seperate from that of the Irish Republic. This does not make it Unionist but in being distinctly "Northern Irish" as opposed to "Irish" does it not make it a polar opposite to nationalist culture?
Why do you feel a need to express cynicism about Seamus Heaney?
There is no question of like
it or not. I am trying to find out what
it is.
And what
it is in relation to the ethnic group that is British Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture.
If you are talking about the entity that is Northern Ireland, I think you will find that actually being 'Northern Irish' is not a prime identity.
That is another topic
Are you talking about a Northern Irish culture, seperate from the the rest of the Ireland.
For example
Most people, (and the artists themselves) would regard Sara Makem as having a distinct Armagh style but still Gaelic Irish culture.
Same with her son.
Likewise Derek Bell and Cathal McConnell have a very distinct style but it is still Irish culture.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on July 07, 2008, 01:40:36 PM
Like I say, I dont think you realise the level of indoctrination you have had and are emitting.
I dont have to say anything like this to the likes of eg solomon kane, as at least that poster is honest and will debate the point honestly. The southern crew dont understand how you and your ilk 'play' it and dont see your otherwise seeingly harmless jibes.
but when you have seen people like you over a lifetime, its easier to spot.
how about being honest and debating like a man from now on instead of this wee sniping!
I really do feel sorry for you. So mired in your own prejudice and hatred that you identify everyone you perceive as a Protestant/unionist as a bigot, those that don't actually show any signs of it are being cunning in their bigotry. All of 'them' have been indoctrinated, they must be because they disagree with your bile.
I'd be horrified to find myself trapped in a mindset like yours.
Quote from: Main Street on July 07, 2008, 08:57:52 PM
If you are talking about the entity that is Northern Ireland, I think you will find that actually being 'Northern Irish' is not a prime identity.
That is another topic
Are you talking about a Northern Irish culture, seperate from the the rest of the Ireland.
You are wrong. "Northern Irish" is an identity. I feel Northern Irish as my prime identiy, with the Irish and Britis elements increasingly irrelevant to me as time goes by. Because you and others may not agree with it or recognise it doesn't mean that it's not there. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Colin Bateman's work isn't distinctly Northern Irish, when he uses humour that many ROI citizens may feel totally alien to them? Or the late James Young for that matter? Of course there is an overlap in Northern Ireland with wider Irish culture, but there is a distinct element which cannot be ignored or denied. There is also an overlap with British culture in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. I will concede that the some of the wider "Irish" culture has a more universal appeal, which is obvious in the success of Riverdance or Roddy Doyle or Maeve Binchy abroad. However, having read some of Roddy Doyle's books I would say that they could have been set in Liverpool or Glasgow and not needed to have been changed too much.
The troubles have shaped Northern Ireland in a way that the Republic has not been affected by. Sad but true.
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 11:20:46 PM
-To suggest that Unionists attempt to include the 3 counties in everything they do is pretty ludicrous
Well yes it would be, but then I didn't say anything of the sort :-\
Quote from: stibhan on July 06, 2008, 11:20:46 PM
-To suggest that Unionists attempt to include the 3 counties in everything they do is pretty ludicrous given that the present day forms of the party, the Ulster Unionist and Democratic Unionist Party do not, as far as I can see, stand for election in said counties. Donegal, for example, had a significant amount of Unionist clubs before partition. I believe the phrase used was "Cast aside without one single sign of recollection or recognition," I think by an Anglican Minister in Fermanagh. Now obviously this is ancient history and not exactly in living memory but it does exemplify abandonment akin to that of a sinking ship, which incidentally was a metaphor used pretty freely in relation to such a break at the time.
You appear to be labouring under the misapprehension that I was talking about Unionist politics. I clearly wasn't. I was talking about aspects of Ulster-British culture. If you read 'The Ulster Scot' (newsletter thing) it quite regularly refers to communities and people in places like East Donegal and north Monaghan. The Ulster-Scots Agency is of course a cross-border body. And not that I'm using the Orange Order as the example of Ulster-British culture, but the Rossnowlagh parade and the regular involvement of lodges from Cavan for example in their parades in NI is a fact.
Quote
- I believe the term used was indeed, Ulster-Scots dancing, replete with a very Irish looking costume. Maybe that was the mistake of the announcer but in any case if the two forms of dance are inseparable to the naked eye then one might consider claims of individuality to be shaky at best. I'm not so sure Scots dancing is that popular in Scotland, in fact I've never even really heard of it being a significant part of their culture- are you talking about highland dancing or country dancing, anyway? I do not have a qualification in dance or the study of it, by the way. To paraphrase myself earlier even a cursory glance at me on a dance-floor would tell you more about my alcohol intake than any education in waltzes or more contemporary forms of getting jiggy with it.
Scottish dancing, highland or whatever (the authenticity of Scottish/Highland cultural expressions...now that's another thing) is similar to but still different from Irish dancing. I'd be very surprised if it was just Irish dancing with an Ulster-Scots label put on it.
Quote
-The reason why the 26 counties are called Ireland is more to do with the fact that the government itself claimed to have jurisdiction over the whole Island up until that minor treaty signed on the back of a used Postcard of the Giant's Causeway around 10 years ago, on that day your man nailed himself to the cross, rather than any division between "us" and "them." Most Irish people I've talked to (and I've talked to a lot, lived with a lot, played Football and Soccer with a lot, and went to class with a lot) seem to be of the opinion that I am, indeed, Irish, and have lived in Ireland for most of my life. My passport would nod in agreement if it weren't being passed around the backstreets of Atha Cliath right now.
As of 1999, (and Im assuming you're from NI here), the 'Ireland' referred to on the cover of your passport is not the 'Ireland' you're from. You're not from Ireland, not the 'Ireland' that held a referendum on the Lisbon treaty recently, or has the euro as its currency, or Brian Cowan as its head of government. (Google "Ireland and Northern Ireland" for a manifestation of this).
The funny thing is, while I'm not a fan of the neighbouring state on this island calling itself Ireland, I would expect nationalists to be most annoyed about the 26 counties being Ireland.
Quote
I in turn am happy to refer to our territory as the following: British-Occupied Ireland, Unionist Ireland, Ulster minus three, Ulst (each letter representing one and a half counties!), The Occupied Six Counties, Six of the Seven Most Northerly Counties on the Island of Ireland, Ulster-Scotland, the bad place, the good place, where George Best came from, and sometimes, just sometimes, North-East Ireland. Northern Ireland for me serves a function in detailing the finer points of Mallon Head, which incidentally extremely Northern, and indeed, in Ireland.
Northern Ireland has been defined under law and international treaty, it's the most accurate name to use. Equally Ireland or the Republic of Ireland for the state on the other side of the border, but I find the former can lack clarity...
Quote
-Linguistically, unless registered as a sub-division of Scots in itself, it isn't a language. You can pass laws all you want but it's akin to passing a law saying that my slurred intonation of English when under the influence of a few pints of Leinster's finest beverage... that's right, Harp... constitutes a new form of communication. Although obviously not the product of a social and cultural legacy like Ulster-Scots is, it's similarly a bastardisation of English. One is tempted to compare the intoxication of me by alcohol to the intoxication of the settlers themselves with grandiose notions of their right to beat taigs down like gophers, but I think it's a leap too far.
My turn of phrase begs the question, though: Is taig an Ulster-Scots word? Read Castle Rackrent by Maria Edgeworth and it has constant reference to some lad called "Thady," an Anglicised form of the word/name Tadhg. Similarly, you may notice that the pejorative "taig" is in itself derived from Teague, in turn an Anglicisation of the same word. Take it away, Seamus:
"Ulster people, according to Rodgers, are 'an abrupt people / who like the spiky consonants of speech / and think the soft ones cissy', and get a kick out of 'anything that gives or takes attack / like Micks, Teagues, tinkers' gets, Vatican'."
Pretty self explanatory, you should think. He goes on to compare the Old English verb for suffering with a colloquialism of his (Catholic!) aunt, then notes:
"What happened was that I found in the glossary to C. L. Wrenn's edition of the poem the Old English word meaning 'to suffer', the word þolian; and although at first it looked completely strange with its thorn symbol instead of the familiar th, I gradually realized that it was not strange at all, for it was the word that older and less educated people would have used in the country where I grew up. 'They'll just have to learn to thole,' my aunt would say about some family who had suffered through an unforeseen bereavement. And now suddenly here was 'thole' in the official textual world, mediated through the apparatus of a scholarly edition, a little bleeper to remind me that my aunt's language was not just a self-enclosed family possession but an historical heritage, one that involved the journey þolian had made north into Scotland and then across unto Ulster with the planters, and then across from the planters to the locals who had originally spoken Irish, and then farther across again when the Scots Irish emigrated to the American South in the eighteenth century. "
So it's a heritage, alright. A melting pot of words and pronunciation, meshed from the twin primordial oozes of modern language on these Isles, Gaelic and Latin, along with the later Germanic, Latin influenced Anglo-Saxon that formed into early English and then early Modern English all the way to that which is spoken on these islands in different dialects. Dialects, though, whilst separate in a number of different ways to each other, are branches of the same family tree of a language in an orchard of trees, some dead and some living. Cut off a branch and it won't survive.
I'm still not sure why you have such a low opinion of Ulster Scots given that your opinion of Scots doesn't seem nearly so low. I certainly don't agree with some of how it's been promoted, that said, and indeed agree with the brilliantly named Alliance councillor Ian Parsley (yep, in North Down the two main Ulster Scots enthusiats among politicans are in the SDLP and the Alliance Party) that 'Scots in Ulster' might be a more helpful term, or at least way to view it.
Quote
Read this: http://www.fb10.uni-bremen.de/anglistik/kerkhoff/DubPoetry/Agard/AgardOxfordDon.html
and it's pretty easy to see what I'm talking about.
You should read Heaney's introduction into Beowulf if you haven't, by the way. It'll enlighten the f**k out of you.
(Check this out for a cracking link-up, even if I do say so myself ;))
Funny enough back when I was studying Anglo-Saxon history and, that week, specifically the language and literature, my tutor, who actually was an Oxford don ironically (bingo! ;)) recommended Heaney's translation of Beowulf. Though he referred to Heaney as a British writer :o Never got round to it but shall endeavour to check it out.
Isn't Black English a cultural manifestation? Not quite the same kettle of fish as Scots mind you, which was an official state language (as far as your could have such a thing in the seventeenth century) and has been to some extent eroded since by English ('standard English').
Quote from: Main Street on July 07, 2008, 01:50:08 PM
So far the distinguishing cultural tradition of the British in NI are the historical events about that identity and the continued affirmation of the importance of that identity.
Somebody mentioned Louis McNeice.
It's not a question of somebody who grows up in NI with a protestant background and is good at poetry or song etc like Louis or James Galway.
Anyway Louis, afaik, was born into a home rule protestant family :)
If you'd mention Louis then why not mention the acclaimed Derek Bell or Shaun Davey - especially the obvious 'Relief of Derry Symphony',
they use the medium of (contemporary) trad music.
Van M wrote songs about growing up in Belfast or even acclaimed playwright Maire Jones wrote plays about life in the North.
It is not a question of education or artistic skills, it is just what is it that can be regarded as culture (apart from identity and OO parades) from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distiguishes them from Gaels.
As far as I can see, whatever artistically merited cultural expression comes out of Protestant/Unionist/British Identified born in Northern Ireland, doesn't identify itself with Unionist/Orange/Loyalist tradition. For the most part it just ends up being part of and sometimes integral part of Irish culture.
Again it all boils down to what you see as culture.
Interesting that you refer "what it is that can be regarded as culture from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distinguishes them from Gaels". Surely its actually the onus of those who look to Gaelic cultural seperatism to show
how Gaelic culture is different from that of the rest of the British Isles/these islands. You seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'. (Not sure if I've been terribly clear on this, can attempt to explain further if needs be)
Good reference above to Colin Bateman. He, for example, doesn't reject his identity as a member of the Protestant/unionist community - his work is distinctively Northern Irish, and more specifically distinctively a product of someone from the Protestant lower middle class in North Down.
Quote from: nifan on July 07, 2008, 08:45:10 AM
Do people think that a dialect can be cultural?
For example, in america is there a jewish culture, and does it include the particular dialect they use?
First question...not sure about that. "Donegal Irish" the main medium in Ulster (the proper Ulster that is) is different to Connemara Irish or Munster Irish, more so in words than syntax. But it is still part of the wider cultural entity that is the language.
Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong. They associate a religion as being a culture. Well, as I wrote before, the Catholics of Malta and the Phillipines, Peru and Ireland, share one religion but their individual cultures stemming from their indigenous customs have helped to shape that religion in those countries. Judaism is a religion not a culture, therefore cries of Racism are very often wrong, when in fact the correct term is Sectarianism. The Jews of Eastern Europe share Judaism with the inhabitants of Israel, but have their own take on things. So too, do the Jews in America and certainly in Australia. It is well documented that one of the biggest problems Jews of Eastern Europe and Ethiopia have when they emmigrate to Israel is the cultural traditions and differences.
I have Greek friends and we often discuss the differences in Australian Greek culture and that of Greece. They may be Orthodox by faith but not by culture, as the Australian traditions overtaken. Same for Catholicism. I received first communion when I was 7 and was confirmed at 11. Australian Catholics do it differently. My Maltese neighbour was married at 14 here in Australia, and when I expressed surprise, she said it was Maltese tradition/culture to do so.
Re. the "Northern Irish" identity...well I don't feel it one bit. Must be a Unionist/Loyaslit thing as I feel as Irish as any Dubliner, Cork person or Galwegian. Siege Mentality rather than identity would be a more apt description.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 07, 2008, 11:02:41 PMYou are wrong. "Northern Irish" is an identity.
Wrong about what?
I wrote it is not a prime identity.
QuoteI feel Northern Irish as my prime identiy, with the Irish and Britis elements increasingly irrelevant to me as time goes by
Okay so, but it's still not the prime identity amongst people born in NI.
1.British 2.Irish 3.Northern Irish
QuoteBecause you and others may not agree with it or recognise it doesn't mean that it's not there
Obviously I have recognised it as an identity so it follows that at least I think it is there.
QuoteAre you seriously trying to suggest that Colin Bateman's work isn't distinctly Northern Irish, when he uses humour that many ROI citizens may feel totally alien to them?
Don't know the man's work so I couldn't possibly be suggesting anything.
If he is a comedian, the sign of a good one is one that people can relate to no matter where they come from.
Humour is humour.
Regional variations are a common enough phenomenon. Sometimes they don't export well.
(See some threads started by O'Neill)
QuoteOr the late James Young for that matter? Of course there is an overlap in Northern Ireland with wider Irish culture, but there is a distinct element which cannot be ignored or denied. There is also an overlap with British culture in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. I will concede that the some of the wider "Irish" culture has a more universal appeal, which is obvious in the success of Riverdance or Roddy Doyle or Maeve Binchy abroad. However, having read some of Roddy Doyle's books I would say that they could have been set in Liverpool or Glasgow and not needed to have been changed too much
.
In general, many aspects of culture are universal in appeal and translates well. That is the nature of things. Kurosawa's masterpieces are translated from Shakespeare's work.
I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem or Harp music - an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture? ::)
QuoteThe troubles have shaped Northern Ireland in a way that the Republic has not been affected by. Sad but true.
True enough, but your troubles are far from over.
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 02:58:17 AM
Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong. They associate a religion as being a culture.
I dont associate a religion as a culture, but a group of people with common religion in an area can have a culture.
In NY there is a distinct culture (or was - gentrification is affecting that) such as round the lower east side.
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 02:58:17 AM
Re. the "Northern Irish" identity...well I don't feel it one bit.
Fair enough.
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 02:58:17 AM
Must be a Unionist/Loyaslit thing as I feel as Irish as any Dubliner, Cork person or Galwegian.
Obviously the Northern Irish identity is overwhelmingly subscribed to by people from the Unionist/Loyalist community, but that was not always the case, and aspects of such identification have survived in other quarters even after 30+ years of The Troubles. The most obvious example is to be found with the NI football team. On another forum, someone commented on recently meeting the family of Sammy Clingan, whose background (I'm told) is West Belfast Nationalist. Yet they enthused about how much they enjoyed his playing for NI and were looking forward to travelling to Glasgow for the next NI match. Or the delighted scorer of the winner the last time NI played ROI was Lurgan's finest, Danny Griffin. Danny has never hidden his pride at representing NI, in stark contrast to a brother of his who famously once wrote a Fearonesque letter to a local paper, excoriating the whole football set-up in the "Six Counties"! Another sporting example was Barry McGuigan, who was as much a typically "Norn Iron" boxing hero as e.g. Rinty Monaghan or Wayne McCullough, despite his background Of course, none of this precludes those such as Griffin, Clingan and McGuigan also having very strong identification with more typically Irish/Gaelic cultural expressions, but these things are rarely entirely homogeneous; rather, there are frequent overlaps.
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 02:58:17 AM
Siege Mentality rather than identity would be a more apt description.
I think you'll find that such a Mentality invariably follows the Siege, not the other way round. Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege... ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 08, 2008, 11:00:19 AM
I think you'll find that such a Mentality invariably follows the Siege, not the other way round. Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege... ;)
There was me thinking it has been :). Only problem now is to get people here to stop celebrating the feckin things cause it only keeps stirring the hatred between the two communities. Theres ways of remembering the past which is not triumphalist in nature but unfortunately there are too many on both sides who want to rub it in up here and keep the divisions which exist which shows a real lack of confidence IMO. I'd be unsure if some nationalists would consider this culture (I would hope not) but the republican bands up here do my head in and hoiw any dignified itelligent republican could enjoy days of rememberance when these kick the pope bands in all but uniform stomp up the street past them is beyond me. They are simply mirroring the behaviour of the other tribe of monkeys. I would have thought that republicanism would have convinced people by now that they need to move away from that type of sentiment at commemorations and bring some dignity and respect to those who they wish to remember. Both communities need to eveolve a bit before the gloves come down.
Quote from: MW on July 07, 2008, 11:23:49 PM
Again it all boils down to what you see as culture.
Interesting that you refer "what it is that can be regarded as culture from the ethnic group that claims to be British that distinguishes them from Gaels". Surely its actually the onus of those who look to Gaelic cultural seperatism to show how Gaelic culture is different from that of the rest of the British Isles/these islands. You seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'. (Not sure if I've been terribly clear on this, can attempt to explain further if needs be)
I am talking in cultural terms and when say I say distinguish, it does not mean separate or superior, it means characteristics of culture that stand out.
I don't engage in talks of cultural separatism. Appreciation of other cultures cuts right through negative divisive sentiments such as prejudice, superiority etc.
It is not culture what separates people.
The characteristics which distinguish Irish Gaelic culture from other cultures are clear enough and obvious.
It would appear there is an understanding amongst those who subscribe primarily to a Northern Ireland identity, that if there is an expression of Gaelic culture in NI, it is primarily an expression of NI culture and if it just happens to "overlap" with southern Gaelic Culture then so be it, that's a side effect.
A nice theory ::)
QuoteYou seem to be conflating everything associated with the island of Ireland as 'Gaelic'
Everything is big word.
Gaelic culture is Gaelic culture, existed centuries before there was a border.
In reference to the cultural expressions in NI, no I don't see that as reflecting Unionist/Orange/ Loyalist tradition/culture.
Northern Irish is much closer to the mark.
Apart from regional variations I see that as a shared culture.
Claim Louis back from the Brits.
Quote from: nifan on July 08, 2008, 08:49:07 AM
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 02:58:17 AM
Second part...here's where many people imo go wrong. They associate a religion as being a culture.
I dont associate a religion as a culture, but a group of people with common religion in an area can have a culture.
In NY there is a distinct culture (or was - gentrification is affecting that) such as round the lower east side.
OK, I(n)FAN, I interpreted your original question as implying that religion was culture, and understand you reply. But the Jewish population of that area of NY (I have never been to anywhere in the Americas) are no doubt influenced by one particular cultural take on the Jewish faith, be it Poland, Russia, Ukraine or wherever. which is my point. My Irish Catholic upbringing is "culturally" different to my Maltese, Italian, or even Chilean neighbours, yet we worship in the same church.
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 08, 2008, 11:00:19 AM
Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege... ;)
Hats off...rather clever quibble there. However, as The Skull followed up with... the siege is questionable as to its existance, but the mentality has been there for manys a year. Please don't deride a very good, discussion (note how it hasn't for the most part degenerated into a them'uns and us'uns) by suggesting that it is a modern phenomenon
Quote from: Main Street on July 08, 2008, 03:08:26 PM
It would appear there is an understanding amongst those who subscribe primarily to a Northern Ireland identity, that if there is an expression of Gaelic culture in NI, it is primarily an expression of NI culture and if it just happens to "overlap" with southern Gaelic Culture then so be it, that's a side effect.
A nice theory ::)
I hope that "those who subscribe primarily to a NI identity" is not a reference to me*, when I posted:
"Of course, none of this precludes those such as Griffin, Clingan and McGuigan also having very strong identification with more typically Irish/Gaelic cultural expressions, but these things are rarely entirely homogeneous; rather, there are frequent overlaps"?
If not, then accept my apology, but if it should be, then some clarification is needed. I was not appropriating expressions of Gaelic culture, as practiced in NI, as being Northern Irish. Rather, it is quite possible, in my experience, for the same individual to identify with more than one tradition or culture, depending on circumstances. For example, I believe that in Traditional Irish music, there is/was a pecularly Donegal style of fiddling. Yet some of the great proponents were actually Protestants, whose background will (at least originally) have been the very definition of Ulster Scots. That being so, it is likely that some of their styles, rhythms and tunes etc may actually have their origins in Scotland - albeit hundreds of years earlier. How would you define their contribution to the culture, then? Scottish? Irish? Ulster? Ulster Scots? I dare say some of their descendants are now e.g. Gaelic Footballers or Hurlers, so are they now Gaels? And should some of them instead be Cricketers or Hockey players (there's a small "colony" in parts of East Donegal etc), are they Planters? And what about those who play both?
Or to take a neighbour of the oft-cited Seamus Heaney, Martin O'Neill. As a native of Kilrea with that surname, who went to St.Colombs in Derry, played Gaelic Football enthusiastically and later went on to manage Glasgow Celtic, it can easily be argued his identity is impeccably 100% Irish. Yet he also went to Queens University to study Law, where he might have qualified as a Barrister or Solicitor in the UK Legal System. Instead, he has made his career in British football, including captaining NI proudly many times, never giving less than 100%. Celtic are a British club (no matter how loudly some of their fans might deny it) and O'Neill was also more than keen to manage England, had he been given the choice. As it was, he accepted an MBE from Her Majesty for services to (British) football.
Now I daresay O'Neill considers himself "Irish", and I have absolutely no objection to that. How could I? But I don't doubt that he would also concede that he has been subject to British influences and culture, indeed contributed more than his share to one aspect of them, so that it would also be correct, whatever the percentages, to describe him as being "Northern Irish". In the end, all that matters is that each individual be allowed to describe himself as being whatever the Hell he likes and be allowed to live in a society/state which accomodates that. Thereafter, if Martin O'Neill ever decided he wanted to manage the NI football team (I know, I know, he won't), I'd have him like a shot. But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.
EG, great post, I doubt that even the most dyed in the wool Republican growing up in the wee six could deny that to some extent their upbringing has been influenced by the British way of life, even to the extent of Radio and tv.
However I feel I must take issue with one of your points
QuoteBut if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.
Bollocks- he should then be taken out and shot with a blunt bullet (so that it hurts more)
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 08, 2008, 03:53:32 PM
Or to take a neighbour of the oft-cited Seamus Heaney, Martin O'Neill. As a native of Kilrea with that surname, who went to St.Colombs in Derry, played Gaelic Football enthusiastically and later went on to manage Glasgow Celtic, it can easily be argued his identity is impeccably 100% Irish. Yet he also went to Queens University to study Law, where he might have qualified as a Barrister or Solicitor in the UK Legal System. Instead, he has made his career in British football, including captaining NI proudly many times, never giving less than 100%. Celtic are a British club (no matter how loudly some of their fans might deny it) and O'Neill was also more than keen to manage England, had he been given the choice. As it was, he accepted an MBE from Her Majesty for services to (British) football.
Now I daresay O'Neill considers himself "Irish", and I have absolutely no objection to that. How could I? But I don't doubt that he would also concede that he has been subject to British influences and culture, indeed contributed more than his share to one aspect of them, so that it would also be correct, whatever the percentages, to describe him as being "Northern Irish". In the end, all that matters is that each individual be allowed to describe himself as being whatever the Hell he likes and be allowed to live in a society/state which accomodates that. Thereafter, if Martin O'Neill ever decided he wanted to manage the NI football team (I know, I know, he won't), I'd have him like a shot. But if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.
It's convenient that Celtic are a "british" club when it comes to counting the number of "british" teams that have won the European Cup, ie, " Well, you ARE Scottish but just so as you don't get above your station and start spouting off how a Scottish team won the cup before an English team did we'll call you british" or that Stephen Roche was the "first English-speaking" winner of the tour de France. Fcuk I will never forgive Phil Liggett for saying that. Twat. Just acknowledge that an Irishman beat an English man to something. And if I were offered the position of Chair of Rio Tinto, I would take it. Could retire after 6 months considering the salary; therefore our Martin is only after the brass. Sure he's not interested in the statelet, but if he were offered the role of manager of a 32-county Ireland team, I have absolutely no doubt he'd do it...probably for free.
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 03:35:47 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 08, 2008, 11:00:19 AM
Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege... ;)
Hats off...rather clever quibble there. However, as The Skull followed up with... the siege is questionable as to its existance, but the mentality has been there for manys a year. Please don't deride a very good, discussion (note how it hasn't for the most part degenerated into a them'uns and us'uns) by suggesting that it is a modern phenomenon
I wasn't quibbling, nor trying to be "clever", never mind "deriding" the discussion. I happily accept that the "Siege", as characterised by e.g. the Provo "Armed Struggle", or the Republic's dropping of its claim to jurisdiction over NI, has been largely dismantled. Indeed, I would argue that in so far as the GFA represents a "settlement" of the recent conflict, the Unionists have actually come much nearer to "winning" the argument than Republicans (feel free to disagree, btw, it's just my opinion).
And whether Unionists admit it in such terms or not (and many don't), now the guns without the walls have been silent for some years, many are increasingly ready to lower the drawbridge and venture back out into the outside world. Otherwise, how else do you explain the transformation of Paisley, from throwing snowballs at Sean Lemass when he came North to visit Terence O'Neill, to sharing tea and cakes with Bertie Ahern in Dublin, some 40 years later? Or the willingness to nip overthe border for cheap petrol, often on a Sunday, at that! :D
However, it is not easy to shake off a mindset which has evolved over decades, from a historical perspective going back centuries, just like that. Otherwise, all those people, on both sides, who were displaced by the Troubles, would now be clamouring for the "Peace Walls" to be torn down, so that they could move back to the former homes from which they were forced out during The Troubles, which quite evidently they're not. And that mindset applies equally, in my opinion, to both communities.
Anyhow, by coincidence I was reading earlier today an account of the Williamite/Jacobite war in Ireland of 1688-90, which concentrated on The Siege of Derry. This event, though by no means the only, or even the first, such Siege, has an incredible emotional pull on Northern Unionists - to equal anything felt by their Nationalist counterparts, such as the Flight of The Earls, or Easter 1916. Yet whilst James's forces were besieging Derry, they were also attempting to lay siege to Enniskillen, the other remaining centre of Williamite resistance in Ulster. But whilst the Apprentice Boys' cry on closing the gates was "NO SURRENDER", the Enniskilleners adopted a very different approach:
"WE STAND UPON OUR GUARD, AND DO RESOLVE BY THE BLESSING OF GOD RATHER TO MEET OUR DANGER THAN EXPECT IT"
Consequently, they successfully harried and disrupted James's forces throughout the whole of South West Ulster, even to within 30 miles of Dublin on one occasion! To my mind, theirs should be the greater example to modern day Unionists (without the pikes and Cannons, obviously!), than that of the Derrymen. And imo, that confidence should also be reflected in that community's culture, as well as its politics.
http://www.libraryireland.com/Derry1689/VI-1.php
How is it the old song goes? "And if, you know, your History..." ;)
Quote from: heganboy on July 08, 2008, 04:00:32 PM
EG, great post, I doubt that even the most dyed in the wool Republican growing up in the wee six could deny that to some extent their upbringing has been influenced by the British way of life, even to the extent of Radio and tv.
Thank You. But believe me, the most dyed in the wool Republicans in the wee six
do deny it, regardless of how preposterous their claims may be. Just as some of their "Loyalist" [
sic] counterparts are so determined to prove their "Britishness", that they run around in England football tops, rather than those (fenian green) NI ones! No matter, they're all going the way of the Dinosaur, thank goodness.
Quote from: heganboy on July 08, 2008, 04:00:32 PM
However I feel I must take issue with one of your points
QuoteBut if, by some equally unlikely circumstance, he ended up managing Tyrone in the all-Ireland(!), he could do so with my best wishes.
Bollocks- he should then be taken out and shot with a blunt bullet (so that it hurts more)
I have no idea why I typed "Tyrone". It should have read "Armagh"...
Only kidding. Of course, I meant Londonderry ;)
P.S. As a prescribed punishment for such apostacy, my father's version was: "May he be shot with a ball of his own dung!" :D
Quote from: Aerlik on July 08, 2008, 04:10:06 PM
It's convenient that Celtic are a "british" club when it comes to counting the number of "british" teams that have won the European Cup, ie, " Well, you ARE Scottish but just so as you don't get above your station and start spouting off how a Scottish team won the cup before an English team did we'll call you british" or that Stephen Roche was the "first English-speaking" winner of the tour de France. Fcuk I will never forgive Phil Liggett for saying that. t**t. Just acknowledge that an Irishman beat an English man to something. And if I were offered the position of Chair of Rio Tinto, I would take it. Could retire after 6 months considering the salary; therefore our Martin is only after the brass. Sure he's not interested in the statelet, but if he were offered the role of manager of a 32-county Ireland team, I have absolutely no doubt he'd do it...probably for free.
f**k me! From 12,000 miles and a whole different Continent away, the most objectionable point in an entire (longish) post you can come up with was my description of Glasgow Celtic as a "British" club! And you accused me earlier of "quibbling"... ;)
Jeez, I'm glad I didn't ask you who's your Head of state out in Oz! :D
What's with all the Scottish flags this year? See them in all towns this year as part of the official flag and bunting.
Quote from: Main Street on July 08, 2008, 03:02:20 AM
I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem or Harp music - an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture? ::)
I use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word. If you don't believe me have a look round some of the discussions on this site were "Nordies" and "Freestaters" accuse each other of not understanding certain issues. The simple truth is that Unionists and Nationalists in NI have much more in common with each other than they do with any of the immediate neighbours.
You might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author. As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 08, 2008, 07:14:07 PMI use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word.
Belief has nowt to do with it. Gaelic culture has been around centuries before partition, there is no overlapping, it is already part of the soil.
it functions as an Island culture. It's a common heritage with a myriad of styles. Borders don't matter in that context.
QuoteYou might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author
I said I didn't know of him, I had already professed 100% ignorance.
I'll keep an eye out for his stuff. I'm already curious.
QuoteAs for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.
I said true enough to your original statement.
I was not referring to troubles as in war troubles. Just despair at the political/social process.
Quote from: Main Street on July 08, 2008, 08:10:59 PM
QuoteAs for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.
I said true enough to your original statement.
I was not referring to troubles as in war troubles. Just despair at the political/social process.
It's getting better and better every day - if all goes well over the weekend it will be proof we are heading towards a fairly normal society. "Cycle Of Violence" is a good jumping on point for Bateman's work. He also writes Murphy's Law for TV.
Quote from: Solomon Kane on July 08, 2008, 07:14:07 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 08, 2008, 03:02:20 AM
I think you should do a good bit more research into culture on the Island
I would consider it to be a nonsense arrogant opinion to regard the examples I gave as "overlap".
Sara Makem or Tommy Makem or Harp music - an overlap from Northern Ireland into Irish culture? ::)
I use the term overlap because I believe people from Northern Ireland no matter what their background have real differences separating them from both the rest of the UK and the rest of Ireland. Therefore I believe any influences from across the border or across the Irish sea are indeed "overlaps" (for want of a better word. If you don't believe me have a look round some of the discussions on this site were "Nordies" and "Freestaters" accuse each other of not understanding certain issues. The simple truth is that Unionists and Nationalists in NI have much more in common with each other than they do with any of the immediate neighbours.
You might want to read up on the culture of the Island a bit yourself if you think Colin Bateman is a comedian - he is actually a fairly successful author. As for our troubles not being over you obviously have no concept of the pointless bloodshed that went on here for decades. We now have fewer violent killings here than the ROI does amd there is no sign of anyone with any influence here having any appetite for the evil we lived through.
But surely thats an Ulster thing, a provincial closeness - we are all Ulstermen after all so of course we should be closer. Will get closer with a bit of simple good neighbourliness......Theres spakes i hear that no-one even outside the county, and sometimes parish, would have heard off
Can anyone who has been brought up in other provinces and moved to another see any differences between where they were brought up and where they now live?
I think the Provincial scene in Ireland still has a fairly big influence on us, have noticed it a bit in bars where theres a Leinster/Ulster friendliness and a Connaught/Munster buddiness......then again same outfit will be batein other the next night!
f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i pray for it to pish!!
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 08, 2008, 11:13:38 PM
f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i pray for it to pish!!
There'll be a shower alright, a shower of klansmen
Quote from: Yes I Would on July 08, 2008, 11:13:38 PM
f**king BBC 5 day forecast predicting sunshine for Saturday and not a shower in site. The one day i pray for it to pish!!
No don't. I've a wedding that day.
I don't like getting wet.
Me neither - one bath a week's plenty no matter what they say.
Quote from: hardstation on July 09, 2008, 12:29:37 AM
Go to Chapel.
or church - might be a produlent wedding.
A Church is both Catholic and Protestant. Don't know why Catholics call it Chapel. A Chapel is a church within another building, ie a hospital.
"I think you'll find that such a Mentality invariably follows the Siege, not the other way round. Therefore, if you really want us to drop the Mentality, then call off the Siege... "
Always funny how the siege mentality lifts when the Aircraft leaves Belfast for whatever port of destination, and folk have no problem partying in tri-colour festooned paddy pubs the world over
Quote from: ziggysego on July 09, 2008, 12:39:46 AM
A Church is both Catholic and Protestant. Don't know why Catholics call it Chapel. A Chapel is a church within another building, ie a hospital.
CHAPEL OF LOVE
(Jeff Barry / Ellie Greenwich / Phil Spector)
The Dixie Cups - 1964
Also recorded by:
The Ronettes; Bette Midler; Elton John; Robin & Jo McNamara.
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Gee I really love you
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel of love
Spring is here.....
Theeeeee.....
The sky is blue (whoa-ooooo)
Birds all sing
Like they do
Today's the day
We'll say "I do"
And we'll never be lonely anymore
Because we're
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Gee I really love you
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel of love
Bells will ring
The sun will shine (whoa-oooooh)
I'll be his
And he'll be mine
We'll love until
The end of time
And we'll never be lonely anymore
Because we're
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel
And we're gonna get married
Gee I really love you
And we're gonna get married
Going to the chapel of love
Going to the chapel of love
Going to the chapel of love ...
Its Chapel Ziggy, "Hospital of Love" doesn't work - the spector has spoken, and we wouldn't want to mess with big Phil
Hardstation, do you live in NA or Oz or are you just an insomniac?
Quote from: hardstation on July 09, 2008, 03:21:59 AM
I'll take the 3rd one there. Some of the finest things happen in the early hours. Although, unfortunately (for me), staying up late will become a thing of the past within the next week.
In keeping with the multiple choice options, as a result of?
a. giving birth?
b. commencing spell of employment? or
c. receiving shipment of dreamy sleepy nighty snoozy snooze?
Got this text yesterday! :D
"The deadline for objections to Derry City's Council bid to change Londonderry's name to Derry is Friday 11 Sept. E-mail your objection now to: info1916@doirecity.gov.uk and stop this anti-British republican plot. Text this on to all Loyal sons of Ulster far and wide.
Ah why did you have to give out the correct email address?
Couldnt you have said INFO@LDOIRE.GOV.IE instead?
They must be getting desperate if they are texting you GDA:)
Quote from: nifan on September 11, 2009, 11:50:07 AM
They must be getting desperate if they are texting you GDA:)
:D :D :D
It was forwarded on to me by a friend.
Orior deadline is today and I would hope that there wouldn't be too many on here that would be objecting. ;)
Address amended.
Alliance/unionist councillor Ian Parsley has done what we all knew he would and joined the Conservatives/Unionists - slimely basterd, Alliance are nothing but unionists in a range rover, the Catholics who vote for them a gullible twats.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8250505.stm
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 12, 2009, 09:48:04 PM
Alliance/unionist councillor Ian Parsley has done what we all knew he would and joined the Conservatives/Unionists - slimely basterd, Alliance are nothing but unionists in a range rover, the Catholics who vote for them a gullible t**ts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8250505.stm
Maybe the Catholics who vote for them are Catholic unionists. So what? Is there some bit of the Catechism which states 'you have to vote for the Stoops or the Shinners'?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 12, 2009, 09:48:04 PM
Alliance/unionist councillor Ian Parsley has done what we all knew he would and joined the Conservatives/Unionists - slimely basterd, Alliance are nothing but unionists in a range rover, the Catholics who vote for them a gullible t**ts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8250505.stm
Is the said Mr Parsley angling for the conservative/unionist nomination for North Down by any chance?
Quote from: slow corner back on September 13, 2009, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 12, 2009, 09:48:04 PM
Alliance/unionist councillor Ian Parsley has done what we all knew he would and joined the Conservatives/Unionists - slimely basterd, Alliance are nothing but unionists in a range rover, the Catholics who vote for them a gullible t**ts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8250505.stm
Is the said Mr Parsley angling for the conservative/unionist nomination for North Down by any chance?
Wash your mouth out! The thought never crossed his mind!
Do Unionists not drive Range Rovers?
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 13, 2009, 09:10:17 PM
Quote from: slow corner back on September 13, 2009, 09:01:28 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 12, 2009, 09:48:04 PM
Alliance/unionist councillor Ian Parsley has done what we all knew he would and joined the Conservatives/Unionists - slimely basterd, Alliance are nothing but unionists in a range rover, the Catholics who vote for them a gullible t**ts.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8250505.stm
Is the said Mr Parsley angling for the conservative/unionist nomination for North Down by any chance?
Wash your mouth out! The thought never crossed his mind!
Do Unionists not drive Range Rovers?
Couldn't tell you Tony, but it sounded good to me last night! ;D
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8385187.stm
>:(
Quote from: fitzroyalty on November 29, 2009, 07:19:47 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8385187.stm
>:(
Jesus Christ! That old slime-infested hole raises its head again. What sort of sick logic would bring every pished, tattooed, Rangers top adorned, gold earring wearing, cheap bracelet / necklace / ring festooned bigot onto the streets at that time of a Saturday night. ... .... Robert Hamill scenario on the cards.
That`s where the culture come in. No fenians about the place. The police knew about this as it was reported in the Irish News on the 19th of Nov. Beware of Portadown the most bigoted town in Nr. Ireland. Always was always will be. I hate the place. BTW, a Fenian is a Catholic who leaves the room. ::)
UTV news report tonight whitewashed the whole thing. They said it was because " drunks were refused admissionto a certain pub. At least the BBc told it as it was, That Catholics were not welcome in the town centre. The Supt. of police said the PSNI dealt with the incident in the appropiate manner. A load of balls,masked men should not have been allowed to march chanting at that time of the night/morning. Portadown loylalists will never change. :(
Forgive my ignorance, but what has this got to do with the title of the thread?
Should we start a new thread called "Nationalist/ Green/ Republican tradition/culture" and talk about the Real IRA?
Get a grip, FFS, the hatred displayed by some people on here towards themmuns, doesn't do much to set them apart from the knuckledraggers in this news story. ::)
Quote from: JUst retired on November 30, 2009, 07:04:38 PM
UTV news report tonight whitewashed the whole thing. They said it was because " drunks were refused admissionto a certain pub. At least the BBc told it as it was, That Catholics were not welcome in the town centre. The Supt. of police said the PSNI dealt with the incident in the appropiate manner. A load of balls,masked men should not have been allowed to march chanting at that time of the night/morning. Portadown loylalists will never change. :(
Apparently a couple of loyalist apes were refused entry to this pub a few weeks ago. The pub in question is as decent a spot as you could expect in Portadown for both sides but I believe it is at least part owned by a Catholic. These knuckledraggers wanted a show of strength to let the Taigs that they weren't welcome. Obviously the police let them do as they please. They should have been baton charged before they got within a hundred yards of the pub.
Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act? The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
etcetera, etcetera, etcetera
Quote from: Orior on November 30, 2009, 10:27:09 PM
Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act? The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was protestants who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
"Could you imagine the uproar if it was catholics who had carried out this act?" The other side would be saying....
Could have been worst, could have been Judean People's Front
Ziggy, your avatar made me laugh out loud!
(http://images.huffingtonpost.com/gadgets/slideshows/2780/slide_2780_38640_large.jpg)
;D
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572)
I see the organge order is still appealing to the lowest of the low within their society. Any chance of these numpties evolving
Quote from: theskull1 on June 03, 2011, 08:49:14 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572)
I see the organge order is still appealing to the lowest of the low within their society. Any chance of these numpties evolving
In fairness it's in their rules and if Tom Elliott wants to be in their gang he has to abide by the rules. It'd be nice if he left the OO over this, but I'm not holding my breath
The point being that the OO are seeking pblic funding for various activities and promoting themselves as a tourist attraction for NI. Is this the type of people we want to be promoting and putting public money into, when they are still stuck way way back.
May it is just protestants that they want to attract anyway so maybe it all works out in the end.
Quote from: theskull1 on June 03, 2011, 08:49:14 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572)
I see the organge order is still appealing to the lowest of the low within their society. Any chance of these numpties evolving
The fools, the fools....
Quote from: AQMP on June 03, 2011, 09:14:21 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 03, 2011, 08:49:14 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572)
I see the organge order is still appealing to the lowest of the low within their society. Any chance of these numpties evolving
The fools, the fools....
No one in this world has ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the great masses of the plain people. Nor has anyone ever lost public office thereby - HL Mencken
The OO is an anti-catholic bigoted organisation....nothing more. They attempt to portray themselves as a religious organisation and promote themselves as a tourist attraction to win public favour and to ingratiate themselves with grants bodies so they can gain funding to continue to promote their bigoted ideals. The sad thing is with the way the 12th July is reported on across the media, any outsiders would not see the true ideals of the OO but instead see it as a festival type event.
What type of religious organisation would make a complaint about one of its members attending a funeral of a murdered police officer? Not a very religious ethic if you ask me.....in fact I would suggest the ideals of the OO are more anti-christian than they are pro-christian which is in direct contrast to how they portray themselves.
The fact that the Orange Order get funding which our taxes pay for is a travesty IMO. It amounts to nothing less than state funded persecution of Catholics. I dont ever see it happening here, but in any other civilised society this type of behaviour would not be tolerated and certainly not awarded money. Think KKK for example. I would put the OO on a par with them.
We can only hope that as younger generations emerge, this bigotry will become less and less tolerated and that eventually this disgusting organisation will cease to exist.
Quote from: theskull1 on June 03, 2011, 08:49:14 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13635572)
I see the organge order is still appealing to the lowest of the low within their society. Any chance of these numpties evolving
Anyone listening to talkback now is bound to be even more depressed. Shocking stuff altogether.
Rotten to the core
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 03, 2011, 10:26:51 AM
The OO is an anti-catholic bigoted organisation....nothing more. They attempt to portray themselves as a religious organisation and promote themselves as a tourist attraction to win public favour and to ingratiate themselves with grants bodies so they can gain funding to continue to promote their bigoted ideals. The sad thing is with the way the 12th July is reported on across the media, any outsiders would not see the true ideals of the OO but instead see it as a festival type event.
What type of religious organisation would make a complaint about one of its members attending a funeral of a murdered police officer? Not a very religious ethic if you ask me.....in fact I would suggest the ideals of the OO are more anti-christian than they are pro-christian which is in direct contrast to how they portray themselves.
The fact that the Orange Order get funding which our taxes pay for is a travesty IMO. It amounts to nothing less than state funded persecution of Catholics. I dont ever see it happening here, but in any other civilised society this type of behaviour would not be tolerated and certainly not awarded money. Think KKK for example. I would put the OO on a par with them.
We can only hope that as younger generations emerge, this bigotry will become less and less tolerated and that eventually this disgusting organisation will cease to exist.
The really sad thing is that some people try to compare the OO with the GAA.
Quote from: Orior on June 03, 2011, 01:09:32 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on June 03, 2011, 10:26:51 AM
The OO is an anti-catholic bigoted organisation....nothing more. They attempt to portray themselves as a religious organisation and promote themselves as a tourist attraction to win public favour and to ingratiate themselves with grants bodies so they can gain funding to continue to promote their bigoted ideals. The sad thing is with the way the 12th July is reported on across the media, any outsiders would not see the true ideals of the OO but instead see it as a festival type event.
What type of religious organisation would make a complaint about one of its members attending a funeral of a murdered police officer? Not a very religious ethic if you ask me.....in fact I would suggest the ideals of the OO are more anti-christian than they are pro-christian which is in direct contrast to how they portray themselves.
The fact that the Orange Order get funding which our taxes pay for is a travesty IMO. It amounts to nothing less than state funded persecution of Catholics. I dont ever see it happening here, but in any other civilised society this type of behaviour would not be tolerated and certainly not awarded money. Think KKK for example. I would put the OO on a par with them.
We can only hope that as younger generations emerge, this bigotry will become less and less tolerated and that eventually this disgusting organisation will cease to exist.
The really sad thing is that some people try to compare the OO with the GAA.
Which seemed to be the tack taken by a few callers into talkback today!
Also Mark King (I think it was him) kept trying to link the actions of the OO to those of the Catholic church at every occasion, also on a few occasions linkied them to Muslim and Jewish religions - no one put it to him that these are religions with rules and the OO isn't a religion so wasn't comparable!
(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00009/OrangeHero_9238c.jpg)
Quote from: ziggysego on June 03, 2011, 01:40:07 PM
(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00009/OrangeHero_9238c.jpg)
Jaysus (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7110457.stm). Love the oh-so-subtle sash
Problem is if you are taught this from birth then it will always be there.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 03, 2011, 01:40:07 PM
(http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00009/OrangeHero_9238c.jpg)
superhero catchphrase "Well Heeeellllooo Daaahhlings....lets march !"