gaaboard.com

You couldn't script this drama, it just encapsulates Unionist mind set to a tee.

FIFA came out with a rewording of the Eligibility rule Article 15, and added in 3 new articles  nr 16 17 and an 18.

FIFA stated that there would be no change to the legality and that they were just bringing different bits of eligibility legislation together together.

Essentially  there is no change,

Irish footballers born in the North fall under Article 15

New Article 16 is about the conditions for  one nationality who can play for different countries, like the UK British passport holders.

Article 15 has been reworded as

Any person holding a
permanent nationality
that is not dependent
on residence in a certain
country is eligible to play
for the representative teams
of the Association of that
country.

You would think that is clear, that it could not be clearer that that is written as if they were thinking of Irish citizenship.
That the state of Ireland grants unconditional permanent citizenship to (almost) all people born in Ireland

BUT the the Belfast Telegraph
screams out   "Northern footballers to face tougher rules if they want to play for the Republic"

The IFA are in a cloud cuckoo land and think that FIFA have all of a sudden out of the blue ruled in their favour.

The BBC are kissing the arses of the IFA and think that FIFA have ruled in the IFA favour

The IFA and 99.99% of the OWC  are creaming themselves.


The FAI know that there has been no change.

Its crazy how the Unionist papers can spin this in their favour. The thing is when the average Mervin reads his paper today he will think that the union is safe for another while yet.

You do have to feel sorry for them a little bit though. Every time the IFA declare victory, OWC and the Tele start celebrating. Even little EG fell for it this time...  :D

It's not only the Unionist papers, or the northern unionist papers at least. The Irish 'Independent' has the following article, which is the same in tone..

QuoteTHE FAI and FIFA look set to be on a collision course after the rules regarding outside players' eligibility for representing their chosen Association were tightened at the FIFA congress in Sydney last weekend.

The rule amendments have specific significance to players from Northern Ireland who choose to play for the Republic.

The FIFA regulation changes mean that any player from Northern Ireland who does not possess parents or grandparents from the Republic must have lived in the Republic for two or more years in order to represent Ireland.

Those conditions are in addition to, rather than an alternative to, the criteria that a player must hold the relevant passport, that is in this case, a Republic of Ireland one.

Agreement

This, however, is completely at odds with the belief of the FAI that if a Northern Irish player simply holds an Irish passport under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, he is able to represent the Republic.

An FAI spokesperson said in response to the FIFA amendment last night: "We do not believe there has been any change to FIFA's stated position that any player from Northern Ireland is eligible to play for the North or for the Republic of Ireland."

The article does state, however, that two Associations may make an agreement under which this rule can be completely deleted or amended again to specify a longer time limit.

The rule change comes after a bitter row erupted between the FAI and the Northern Irish Football Association, the IFA, over the eligibility of Manchester United youngster Darron Gibson.

The 20-year-old, currently on loan at Wolverhampton Wanderers, was born in Derry but holds an Irish passport and despite playing as a youth for Northern Ireland, chose to represent the senior Republic of Ireland team.

Although the IFA disputed his eligibility to play for the Irish team, Gibson made his debut for the Republic under Steve Staunton in August 2007 in a 4-0 friendly win over Denmark in Aarhus.

I embolded the bits I thought were particularly interesting.

Quote from: AZOffaly on June 03, 2008, 10:14:37 AM
It's not only the Unionist papers, or the northern unionist papers at least. The Irish 'Independent' has the following article, which is the same in tone..

QuoteTHE FAI and FIFA look set to be on a collision course after the rules regarding outside players' eligibility for representing their chosen Association were tightened at the FIFA congress in Sydney last weekend.

The rule amendments have specific significance to players from Northern Ireland who choose to play for the Republic.

The FIFA regulation changes mean that any player from Northern Ireland who does not possess parents or grandparents from the Republic must have lived in the Republic for two or more years in order to represent Ireland.

Those conditions are in addition to, rather than an alternative to, the criteria that a player must hold the relevant passport, that is in this case, a Republic of Ireland one.

Agreement

This, however, is completely at odds with the belief of the FAI that if a Northern Irish player simply holds an Irish passport under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement, he is able to represent the Republic.

An FAI spokesperson said in response to the FIFA amendment last night: "We do not believe there has been any change to FIFA's stated position that any player from Northern Ireland is eligible to play for the North or for the Republic of Ireland."

The article does state, however, that two Associations may make an agreement under which this rule can be completely deleted or amended again to specify a longer time limit.

The rule change comes after a bitter row erupted between the FAI and the Northern Irish Football Association, the IFA, over the eligibility of Manchester United youngster Darron Gibson.

The 20-year-old, currently on loan at Wolverhampton Wanderers, was born in Derry but holds an Irish passport and despite playing as a youth for Northern Ireland, chose to represent the senior Republic of Ireland team.

Although the IFA disputed his eligibility to play for the Irish team, Gibson made his debut for the Republic under Steve Staunton in August 2007 in a 4-0 friendly win over Denmark in Aarhus.

I embolded the bits I thought were particularly interesting.

The Irish Independent and the Belfast Tele are published by the same people.

But presumably the editorial control and content is different?

Quote from: AZOffaly on June 03, 2008, 10:22:26 AM
But presumably the editorial control and content is different?

I wouldn't bet on it. I noticed quite a bit of crossover particularly with their online content.

They should have the Belfast T. listed first  (alphabetically) amongst the Indo's regional papers.

The INdo is a partitionist rag - they've always had an anti northern nationist bias.

Quote from: Donagh on June 03, 2008, 10:13:12 AM
You do have to feel sorry for them a little bit though. Every time the IFA declare victory, OWC and the Tele start celebrating. Even little EG fell for it this time...  :D

As somebody said somewhere, it's like the end of a boxing contest, two boxers both raise their hand in victory,  not a mark on one and handsome as ever, the other one battered to pulp like Jake le Motta.

When I read about this on RTE Aertel yesterday (page 227), they had "Londonderry-born Darron Gibson" contained in the article! But I see this morning they've removed the London element  :D

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 09:29:58 AM
You couldn't script this drama, it just encapsulates Unionist mind set to a tee.

FIFA came out with a rewording of the Eligibility rule Article 15, and added in 3 new articles  nr 16 17 and an 18.

FIFA stated that there would be no change to the legality and that they were just bringing different bits of eligibility legislation together together.

Essentially  there is no change,

Irish footballers born in the North fall under Article 15

New Article 16 is about the conditions for  one nationality who can play for different countries, like the UK British passport holders.

Article 15 has been reworded as

Any person holding a
permanent nationality
that is not dependent
on residence in a certain
country is eligible to play
for the representative teams
of the Association of that
country.

You would think that is clear, that it could not be clearer that that is written as if they were thinking of Irish citizenship.
That the state of Ireland grants unconditional permanent citizenship to (almost) all people born in Ireland

BUT the the Belfast Telegraph
screams out   "Northern footballers to face tougher rules if they want to play for the Republic"

The IFA are in a cloud cuckoo land and think that FIFA have all of a sudden out of the blue ruled in their favour.

The BBC are kissing the arses of the IFA and think that FIFA have ruled in the IFA favour

The IFA and 99.99% of the OWC  are creaming themselves.


The FAI know that there has been no change.

The Belfast Telegraph has, from the outset, misinterpreted the FIFA line due to nothing else than the basic stupidity of their sports reporters.  This is the same organ that informed us recently that Rangers' Steve Davis was the first player from 'province' to appear in a European final  since Martin O'Neill for Forest.  How could they forget about Neil Lennon?  The same Neil Lennon the very owc supporters, that the Tele hail as the best in the world, who forced him to retire from 'province' through blatant bigotry.  How could they forget about Neil Lennon? The same Neil Lennon who the Tele's main football columnist hinted at the time had somehow conspired to have threatening phonecalls made to himself to warn him not to play for owc again, and that, not the owc's disgraceful behaviour at windsor park, was to blame for his retirement (the phonecalls were traced to Rathcoole).

The IFA's line on this is based on bigotry and nothing else... ie to prevent northern 'neshinalists' exerting their right to play for their country, the country whose passport they possess

Aretel, our state broadcaster's teletext service reported on this yesterday and stated and I quote that the issue came to a head over "Londonderry lad Darron Gibson". >:(

as i've said before it matters not a wit what the ifa think nor for that matter what fifa think as in law they will not be able to differentiate between passport holders of the one country. all one has to do is look at the mess that blatter is in with his 6+5 rule, total bullshit and cant happen. fifa can make up any rules they like as long as they dont break any laws.. que 40 pages of sammy and evil g

When are you getting thos erules from Main Street. If your right then even RTE and the SDLP have fallen for the propaganda! Not that they'd be immune to getting things entirely wrong.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/0602/fai.html

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on June 03, 2008, 07:09:32 PM
When are you getting thos erules from Main Street. If your right then even RTE and the SDLP have fallen for the propaganda! Not that they'd be immune to getting things entirely wrong.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/0602/fai.html

all those reports are quoting the ifa..

Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on June 03, 2008, 07:09:32 PM
When are you getting thos erules from Main Street. If your right then even RTE and the SDLP have fallen for the propaganda! Not that they'd be immune to getting things entirely wrong.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2008/0602/fai.html

If you want the truth come to the GAA board. AFAIK all media outlets are getting it wrong. It's probably all sourced to the IFA claiming victory, because the FAI were on holidays on Monday  :) and as always take a quiet dignified but consistent position on the matter.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/bodies/fifa_congress_08_agenda_47752.pdf (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/bodies/fifa_congress_08_agenda_47752.pdf)

13.2 REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE APPLICATION OF THE STATUTES
13.2.1 Eligibility to play for representative teams

'The objective is the complete integration of the various circulars and provisions
within the regulations into the FIFA Statutes without altering the current legal
situation (cf. Annexe 2 of the Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players,
circular no. 901 dated 19 March 2004 and circular no. 1093 dated 21 June
2007). Under the proposal approved by the Executive Committee, all relevant
provisions have been summarised and added to the Regulations Governing the
Application of the Statutes.
Accordingly, art. 15 in the chapter "Eligibility to play for representative teams" of
the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes should be amended
and new art. 16 to 18 should be included.'


New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

The other new statutes 17&18 don't apply

So that just leave the re-worded Article 15, which fits perfectly for Irish citizens.

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 09:29:58 AM
New Article 16 is about the conditions for  one nationality who can play for different countries, like the UK British passport holders.

Irish passport holders can play for both the FAI team and the IFA team.

QuoteIf you want the truth come to the GAA board. AFAIK all media outlets are getting it wrong. It's probably all sourced to the IFA claiming victory, because the FAI were on holidays on Monday  Smiley and as always take a quiet dignified but consistent position on the matter.

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/bodies/fifa_congress_08_agenda_47752.pdf

13.2 REGULATIONS GOVERNING THE APPLICATION OF THE STATUTES
13.2.1 Eligibility to play for representative teams

'The objective is the complete integration of the various circulars and provisions
within the regulations into the FIFA Statutes without altering the current legal
situation (cf. Annexe 2 of the Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players,
circular no. 901 dated 19 March 2004 and circular no. 1093 dated 21 June
2007). Under the proposal approved by the Executive Committee, all relevant
provisions have been summarised and added to the Regulations Governing the
Application of the Statutes.
Accordingly, art. 15 in the chapter "Eligibility to play for representative teams" of
the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes should be amended
and new art. 16 to 18 should be included.'


New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

The other new statutes 17&18 don't apply

So that just leave the re-worded Article 15, which fits perfectly for Irish citizens.

Superb stuff Main Street. Just wait till tomorrow for the retractions laced with "initial reports suggested........" Yes they did suggest but what they suggested was wrong and supposedly world class media outlets like the BBC and RTE reported a misinterpretation because they were too lazy to click on the FIFA website (despite, in the BBC's case, providing a link to their website beside the story).s

Quote from: dec on June 03, 2008, 07:33:01 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 09:29:58 AM
New Article 16 is about the conditions for  one nationality who can play for different countries, like the UK British passport holders.

Irish passport holders can play for both the FAI team and the IFA team.

Irish nationality alone does not qualify you play for NI.
That is what matters.
That why article 16 and its conditions  do not apply.

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 07:28:19 PM
New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.

I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 07:28:19 PM
New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.

I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

art 16 would only apply to the irish situtation if anyone holding an irish passport were entitled to play for ni. thats not the case chris as roi holders of irish passports cant play for ni...

Quote from: magickingdom on June 03, 2008, 09:00:40 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 07:28:19 PM
New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.

I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

art 16 would only apply to the irish situtation if anyone holding an irish passport were entitled to play for ni. thats not the case chris as roi holders of irish passports cant play for ni...

Article 16 relates to someone who's nationality entitles them to represent more than one association and therefore relates to everyone born in Northern Ireland whether they be British/Irish or both.

The IFA have a common nationality with the FA, SFA & FAW but also FAI.

Regardless of par. 1 above,  Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit. Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 07:28:19 PM
New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.

I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

I have to disagree with you Chris. IMO, under article 15 anyone holding an Irish passport (i.e. has Irish citizenship) is eligible to play for the FAI teams.  Article 16, as stated by others, covers British nationality and is not relevant to Irish citizens. What the new articles don't cover is exactly the IFA / FAI situation, where technically players can have more than one 'nationality'.

Interestingly, I believe there are moves afoot to attempt to entice Dublin born Owen Garvan of Ipswich into the IFA fold.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 09:28:40 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 03, 2008, 09:00:40 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 07:28:19 PM
New Article 16 (the one the IFA and the OWC are fornicating publically about, in a way that the Mayo Echo would not approve)
applies conditions of eligibility to British passport holders
one passport  but 4 federations. The conditions that are in Article 16 do not apply to Irish citizens.

Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.

I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

art 16 would only apply to the irish situtation if anyone holding an irish passport were entitled to play for ni. thats not the case chris as roi holders of irish passports cant play for ni...

Article 16 relates to someone who's nationality entitles them to represent more than one association and therefore relates to everyone born in Northern Ireland whether they be British/Irish or both.

The IFA have a common nationality with the FA, SFA & FAW but also FAI.

Regardless of par. 1 above,  Associations sharing a common nationality may make an agreement under which item (d) of par. 1 of this article is deleted completely or amended to specify a longer time limit. Such agreements shall be lodged with and approved by the Executive Committee

the only way the ifa would have a common nationality with the fai would be if everyone born in ireland could represent either team. thats why fifa legal dept came out with this 'solution' to the problem earlier. the difference is that a british passport represents 4 countries (associations) while an irish passport represents 1 country (association). thus art 16 cannot apply to the irish situtation. all fifa said to the ifa was that they could object and the ifa ran with that. in law that objection is dead in the water..

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM
Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.
I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

Holders of an Irish passport can play for NI, only if they are born in the North.
It has nothing to with Irish nationality.
An Irish national has no right to declare for the North.
Article 16 is about the right of a nationality to declare for many associations

As Magic says, Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.


Remember FIFA have stated in the explanation that they have not changed the legality of any of their eligibility rules
That means everything is as before.

Article 16  is about the UK passport arrangement and then sets out the eligibility for each one of the 4 associations

Did you not also have problems with understanding the Annex in the past? Also you could not move (even 1/2 an inch) from your fixed position
Anyway the OWC use to cling like barnacles  to the conditions in what is now Article 17 (AKA the Annex)  and as I tried to painstakingly explain in the past that that was just for new nationals.  Article 17 has replaced the Annex.
The headline  for the new Article 17 is
Acquisition of a new nationality :)












 

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 09:44:39 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 08:43:31 PM
Your original post highlighting the amended Article 15 in isolation supports your argument.  However, the new Article 16 along side Article 15 is what is the crux here.  An Irish citizen born in Northern Ireland is eligible to play for either association and therefore Article 16 should be applied.
I have read and re-read the amended, and new articles before posting, and this is the only conclusion I can see.

Holders of an Irish passport can play for NI, only if they are born in the North.
It has nothing to with Irish nationality.
An Irish national has no right to declare for the North.
Article 16 is about the right of a nationality to declare for many associations

As Magic says, Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.


Remember FIFA have stated in the explanation that they have not changed the legality of any of their eligibility rules
That means everything is as before.

Article 16  is about the UK passport arrangement and then sets out the eligibility for each one of the 4 associations

Did you not also have problems with understanding the Annex in the past? Also you could not move (even 1/2 an inch) from your fixed position
Anyway the OWC use to cling like barnacles  to the conditions in what is now Article 17 (AKA the Annex)  and as I tried to painstakingly explain in the past that that was just for new nationals.  Article 17 has replaced the Annex.
The headline  for the new Article 17 is
Acquisition of a new nationality :)



So someone born in Northern Ireland of Northern Irish parents & grandparents is eligible to play for who and what is their nationality?









 

IMO, if they have an Irish passport, they are eligible to play for both IFA / FAI. Without an Irish passport IFA only.

They can decide if they are Irish or british.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 10:01:02 PM
IMO, if they have an Irish passport, they are eligible to play for both IFA / FAI. Without an Irish passport IFA only.

They can decide if they are Irish or british.

If they have an Irish passport does this mean they have 'acquired' a new nationality through their passport?

I would say no. It's an entitlement, rather than something that has been acquired.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 09:38:18 PM
Interestingly, I believe there are moves afoot to attempt to entice Dublin born Owen Garvan of Ipswich into the IFA fold.

i wonder how would that work out?
He is part of the Con Martin football dynasty.
His uncle is Mick Martin who is Liam Brady's long time buddy and Mick is also employed as a scout by the FAI.
Don Givens recommended him as the outstanding u21 to be part of Traps first senior squad.

Owen is a made man ;)

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 10:10:07 PM

If they have an Irish passport does this mean they have 'acquired' a new nationality through their passport?

It is not acquiring a new nationality according to FIFA
NI born are entitled to it from birth with out having to fulfill any residence  demands etc
It is an automatic right.
FIFA recognize this as satisfying their criteria for Article 15.
That is what matters.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 10:01:02 PM
IMO, if they have an Irish passport, they are eligible to play for both IFA / FAI. Without an Irish passport IFA only.

They can decide if they are Irish or british.

spot on.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 10:10:07 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 10:01:02 PM
IMO, if they have an Irish passport, they are eligible to play for both IFA / FAI. Without an Irish passport IFA only.

They can decide if they are Irish or british.

If they have an Irish passport does this mean they have 'acquired' a new nationality through their passport?

no, in ni there is joint citizenship, people have a choice of citizenship. a concept that unionists dont seem able to grasp is that there are irish nationals now living in two different jurisdictions. if you start from there things get easier

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 10:16:40 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 09:38:18 PM
Interestingly, I believe there are moves afoot to attempt to entice Dublin born Owen Garvan of Ipswich into the IFA fold.

i wonder how would that work out?
He is part of the Con Martin football dynasty.
His uncle is Mick Martin who is Liam Brady's long time buddy and Mick is also employed as a scout by the FAI.
Don Givens recommended him as the outstanding u21 to be part of Traps first senior squad.

Owen is a made man ;)

Must of been that spide Jim Magilton at Ipswich trying to entice him to OWC. No chance mucker ;)

and from art 15

"Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent
on residence in a certain country is eligible to play
for the representative teams of the Association of that country."

wonder what fifa were thinking when they put that in?! couldnt be clearer

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 10:14:38 PM
I would say no. It's an entitlement, rather than something that has been acquired.

The question then follows does Article 15 stand alone?

This paragraph would suggest not -

Accordingly, art. 15 in the chapter "Eligibility to play for representative teams" of
the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes should be amended
and new art. 16 to 18 should be included.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 10:26:29 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 03, 2008, 10:14:38 PM
I would say no. It's an entitlement, rather than something that has been acquired.

The question then follows does Article 15 stand alone?

This paragraph would suggest not -

Accordingly, art. 15 in the chapter "Eligibility to play for representative teams" of
the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes should be amended
and new art. 16 to 18 should be included.

are you sammy in disguise? whats your point??

His point is clear now,  he is trolling
Nobody could be that dumb, could they?

Here is the text in full and obviously included means included in the statutes.


Explanation:
The objective is the complete integration of the various circulars and provisions
within the regulations into the FIFA Statutes without altering the current legal
situation (cf. Annexe 2 of the Regulations on the Status and Transfer of Players,
circular no. 901 dated 19 March 2004 and circular no. 1093 dated 21 June
2007). Under the proposal approved by the Executive Committee, all relevant
provisions have been summarised and added to the Regulations Governing the
Application of the Statutes.
Accordingly, art. 15 in the chapter "Eligibility to play for representative teams" of
the Regulations Governing the Application of the Statutes should be amended
and new art. 16 to 18 should be included.

I asked a question, a genuine one I thought.

Now I am being accused of being a wind up merchant/troller - we'll leave it at that.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 03, 2008, 10:39:46 PM
I asked a question, a genuine one I thought.

Now I am being accused of being a wind up merchant/troller - we'll leave it at that.

i dont think your a wind up merchant chris (but i do think sammy is!) so i apologise.

You don't have to apologise, I said he must be trolling that nobody could be that stupid and then he fécks off in a huff.

It's the same discussion with the same stuck minds.
Even if this was all discussed before, the same posters come on with simple enough questions, then it progresses a bit, then they sidetrack. Similar to discussing religion with religious zealouts, it is as if they have a belief system which interferes with understanding.

The simple interpretation is
'accordingly article 15  is amended and the the other 3 new articles are added to the chapter'.

It defies a minimum standard of common sense needed to discuss such things as eligibility criteria.  The poster is doing the equivalent of trying to join the definition of obstruction with the definition of a foul throw, because both are in the same area of the rule book.
Just so he can disagree with your definition of offside.
What constitution or set of rules would operate in such an anarchic way?

Its an insane mental game designed imo to entwine a discussion into knots,  not for gaining knowledge about something he knows nothing about.
Thats trolling or just stubborn stupidity, its the same thing.

Main Street is right magickingdom you don't have to apologise

As for trolling then f*cking off in a huff?, playing an insane mental game, being stubbornly stupid etc ::)

I have not posted on the equivalent thread on OWC as the majority of people there have intepreted the amendment/ or have 'creamed themselves'* in the same way as I have.  I would prefer to engage with people who don't necessarily share that view point as I find the conversation tends to be more interesting that way. 

Some people clearly aren't comfortable with being confronted with a contradictory view point and soon resort to sly digs.  You can be sure that it isn't too long before they cry wolf.

Your anology of me attempting to joing the definition of a foul throw with that of obstruction and linking it with offside is completely off the mark and misleading.

I'll try again.

Read the new Article 16 and in the first paragraph Article 15 is referred to - A player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality - for eg an Irish Citizen born in Northern Ireland.  ie his Irish Nationality makes him eligible for more than one Association (you can thank Dermot Ahern for that one, or so he says).

Therefore, as I see it,  Article 15 does not stand alone.

*delete as appropriate

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 08:05:59 AM
Read the new Article 16 and in the first paragraph Article 15 is referred to - A player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality - for eg an Irish Citizen born in Northern Ireland.  ie his Irish Nationality makes him eligible for more than one Association (you can thank Dermot Ahern for that one, or so he says).

Therefore, as I see it,  Article 15 does not stand alone.

I don't think this applies. For it to apply, article 16 should say "A player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationalities".

None of the articles 15 - 18 specifically apply to the Irish situation, i.e. whereby a player can have more than one "nationality".

All Irish passport holders are eligible to play for the FAI under article 15.

Article 16 refers to a particular nationality, e.g. British, that will allows you to represent more than one association. Maik Taylor would be a good example here.

For acquiring a new nationality, this would mean someone who has already played for an IFA team, who wants to switch to the FAI or vice versa.

Of course, I'm not a legal expert and could be totally wrong.

I also think it will only affect a very small minority of 'conscientious objectors' with most footballers choosing the option that furthers their own careers.

I believe Chris to be genuine in his questions and to be neither trolling nor stupid.

It is obvious that the "clarification" by FIFA has not clarified anything judging by the circular arguments here and on OWC.  The proof of the pudding will be when some chappie from the six counties declares for (or in OWC-speak: is poached by in a sectarian manner) the FAI.  Of course the IFA will throw a huff, presumably formally and FIFA will have to adjudicate.  I'm certain the will rule in favour of the FAI because though I see the way OWC want to interpret the rules.  My reason for believing this precedent.  FIFA seem to accept that the political situation in Northern Ireland means that there are people who genuninely believe themselves "Irish" (in the nationalist sense) and that the states involve recognise this. 

Therefore, comparisons to Qatar, Spain/Portugal etc.. are irrelevant.  In fact their use in the context of this is arrogant and dismissive of sincerely held beliefs of a significant percentage of the population of Northern Ireland. 

A long way to go here yet but expect the status quo to remain.

/Jim.

It would appear that it is not just the owcers who are of the same opinion as Chris.

This letter appeared in today's irish News.

Quote
The Belfast-based Irish Football Association's 'success' in overturning FIFA's original determination as regards Irish-born soccer players having the right to play for the Irish international team of their choice (which was an entirely fair and reasonable determination
which – unlike this latest revision – protected individual choice) and thus compelling players born in the six counties to play for the IFA team, is profoundly disturbing.

Here is an organisation (the IFA) that cannot even properly administer a small part-time domestic league nor exercise even basic financial control, wielding enormous influence in the corridors of power on a global scale and the question has to be asked as to how they can do this?

This matter has ramifications which extend beyond exclusively sporting issues, and raises questions as to the fundamental integrity of the Good Friday Agreement itself, and by inference the negotiating skills of our political representatives.

It is now incumbent on the SDLP, Sinn Fein to take the lead on this issue and in conjunction with the Football Association of Ireland in Dublin and the 26-county government, robustly challenge this ruling immediately in a co-ordinated manner and thus resolve the anomaly of Irish-born players from the six counties being forced against their wishes, to represent a team that plays under a foreign flag with a foreign national anthem, unambiguously and permanently..

Tony Fearon

Poyntzpass, Co Armagh

Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 08:05:59 AM

Quoteain Street is right magickingdom you don't have to apologise

As for trolling then f*cking off in a huff?, playing an insane mental game, being stubbornly stupid etc ::)

I have not posted on the equivalent thread on OWC as the majority of people there have intepreted the amendment/ or have 'creamed themselves'* in the same way as I have.  I would prefer to engage with people who don't necessarily share that view point as I find the conversation tends to be more interesting that way.

Some people clearly aren't comfortable with being confronted with a contradictory view point and soon resort to sly digs.  You can be sure that it isn't too long before they cry wolf.

That's the usual nonsense that use to be argued by that Gwelthaw troll.
Don't flatter yourself, you do not have a contradictory opinion, you have a stuck belief system.
I have no problem with different opinions.
I had a look at the thread on the OWC site and there is somebody who is painstakingly trying to explain the legislation to all the zealouts.
So you do not have to come here. Somebody called Moore twin and there was somebody else before that called after a Doctor Who episode.
There are plenty on the OWC site who have asked the exact same question that you are stuck with and have got the exact same or similar answers

I have no problem with somebody who refuses to move out of their box as long as they go away after a while.
I have a problem with somebody who wants to stay in their box and use a patently ridiculous argument to support it.

QuoteYour anology of me attempting to joing the definition of a foul throw with that of obstruction and linking it with offside is completely off the mark and misleading.

Thats how it exactly looked and that was understated.

QuoteRead the new Article 16 and in the first paragraph Article 15 is referred to - A player who, under the terms of art. 15, is eligible to represent more than one Association on account of his nationality - for eg an Irish Citizen born in Northern Ireland.  ie his Irish Nationality makes him eligible for more than one Association (you can thank Dermot Ahern for that one, or so he says).

Therefore, as I see it,  Article 15 does not stand alone.

*delete as appropriate
[/quote]
Article 16 does not stand alone, it states clearly its point of reference  to the terms of  eligibility in  article 15.

on account of his nationality
It is not on account of Irish nationality that he qualifies for NI, he qualifies because he was born in NI.
Irish Nationality  does not allow a player to declare for NI.
A player can use it for ID, so what?

There is no Northern Irish -  Irish nationality   which allows a player to choose between 2 different associations

Article 16 states that  a player holding one nationality  
(use terms of article 15)
A permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country

A NI born is a British national, without having to satisfy residency in other UK countries.
One nationality  but 4 associations.
How do you decide who plays for who?
FIFA wrote it all in this article 16.
And they allow the 4 associations to determine the length of residency.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 01:48:14 PM
Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Go back to the OWC and get your FIFA statute lessons from that Moore lad.
The guy has tried hard to reason with you.

Is there really a need to spread your shite all over the world.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 02:20:07 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 01:48:14 PM
Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Go back to the OWC and get your FIFA statute lessons from that Moore lad.
The guy has tried hard to reason with you.

Is there really a need to spread your shite all over the world.

Fantastic response!! If you agree with Mooretwin, then why have you been arguing the exact opposite on this thread?

Try reading my post and you'll see that I mentioned MT's point, namely dual nationality.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 02:16:29 PM
Article 16 does not stand alone, it states clearly its point of reference  to the terms of  eligibility in  article 15.

on account of his nationality
It is not on account of Irish nationality that he qualifies for NI, he qualifies because he was born in NI.
Irish Nationality  does not allow a player to declare for NI.
A player can use it for ID, so what?

There is no Northern Irish -  Irish nationality   which allows a player to choose between 2 different associations

Article 16 states that  a player holding one nationality  
(use terms of article 15)
A permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country

A NI born is a British national, without having to satisfy residency in other UK countries.
One nationality  but 4 associations.
How do you decide who plays for who?
FIFA wrote it all in this article 16.
And they allow the 4 associations to determine the length of residency.

Irish nationality encompasses 2 footballing associations as does, for example, Danish nationality.

That is not to say that all Danish or Irish nationals are entitled to represent more than one association.

A NI born is a British national by birth - and an Irish national because he chooses.

His British nationality entitles him to represent 4 associations while his Irish nationality entitles him to represent 2.  By choosing to state that he is an Irish national does not suddenly make him eligible for only one association.

Similarly, someone born in the Faroe Islands has Danish nationality and under article 15 is entitled to represent Denmark.  Article 16 states that he, along with his Northern Irish counterpart, and there is such a thing as Northern Irish when it comes to FIFA & Football, must meet other criteria should they wish to represent another association. ie Denmark & Rep of Ireland.

Chris I don't think that's true. You cannot represent NI by virtue of having an Irish passport. As I remember around the time of the passport fiasco UFEA accepted that it could be used for ID but that the IFA would provide documentation to prove the player was eligible to play for NI. Oh and the GFA and Bunreacht na hÉireann entitles us to Irish nationality as a "birthright" not as a choice i.e. I don't have to choose not to be British because I'm Irish as of (birth)right.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 03:18:38 PM
Irish nationality encompasses 2 footballing associations as does, for example, Danish nationality.

That is not to say that all Danish or Irish nationals are entitled to represent more than one association.

A NI born is a British national by birth - and an Irish national because he chooses.

His British nationality entitles him to represent 4 associations while his Irish nationality entitles him to represent 2.  By choosing to state that he is an Irish national does not suddenly make him eligible for only one association.

Similarly, someone born in the Faroe Islands has Danish nationality and under article 15 is entitled to represent Denmark.  Article 16 states that he, along with his Northern Irish counterpart, and there is such a thing as Northern Irish when it comes to FIFA & Football, must meet other criteria should they wish to represent another association. ie Denmark & Rep of Ireland.

A Nothern Ireland  footballer
You have Two nationalities by birth, like it or not.
One nationality,  the UK one  allows you to play for NI
The Irish nationality allows you to  play for the Republic.


His Irish nationality entitles him to jack shit in Northern Ireland.
He can play for NI because he is an UK national.
He is a UK national by birth.
He can use his Irish passport for ID purposes.
Does nobody know the constitutional status of NI ?

The player can choose two associations because he has 2 nationalities not because he has one nationality.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:44:54 PMA Nothern Ireland  footballer
You have Two nationalities by birth, like it or not.
One nationality,  the UK one  allows you to play for NI
The Irish nationality allows you to  play for the Republic.


His Irish nationality entitles him to jack shit in Northern Ireland.
He can play for NI because he is an UK national.
He is a UK national by birth.
He can use his Irish passport for ID purposes.
Does nobody know the constitutional status of NI ?

The player can choose two associations because he has 2 nationalities not because he has one nationality.

Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

;D
Since when do two nationalities become  the one nationality of article 16 ?
The person hasn't been born who could discuss this topic with you.
A most unique example of a mind locked shut.
Go back to your owc cave and get some lessons from that Moore lad

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:58:51 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM
Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

;D
The person hasn't been born who could discuss this topic with you.
A most unique example of a mind locked shut.
Go back to your owc cave and get some lessons from that Moore lad

Again a fantastic response. Nothing locked about my mind , thanks all the same for your concern.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:44:54 PMA Nothern Ireland  footballer
You have Two nationalities by birth, like it or not.
One nationality,  the UK one  allows you to play for NI
The Irish nationality allows you to  play for the Republic.


His Irish nationality entitles him to jack shit in Northern Ireland.
He can play for NI because he is an UK national.
He is a UK national by birth.
He can use his Irish passport for ID purposes.
Does nobody know the constitutional status of NI ?

The player can choose two associations because he has 2 nationalities not because he has one nationality.

Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but those that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 04:53:13 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 04:44:54 PMA Nothern Ireland  footballer
You have Two nationalities by birth, like it or not.
One nationality,  the UK one  allows you to play for NI
The Irish nationality allows you to  play for the Republic.


His Irish nationality entitles him to jack shit in Northern Ireland.
He can play for NI because he is an UK national.
He is a UK national by birth.
He can use his Irish passport for ID purposes.
Does nobody know the constitutional status of NI ?

The player can choose two associations because he has 2 nationalities not because he has one nationality.

Do you need a hand moving those goalposts?

You've just spent 4 pages claiming that Article 15 applies (when it clearly doesn't) and have now decided that actually dual nationality applies!!! Make yer mind up FFS.

p.s. As I've stated numerous times IMO dual nationality doesn't apply as the players have either British or RoI citizenship, not both.

Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

That's the million dollar question. I believe that we have an entitlement to British or RoI citizenship or both, others believe that you automatically have dual citizenship and have no choice in the matter. Depending on which of those is correct, different FIFA regs apply.

The one thing that is 100% clear is that Main Street was talking bollix, as the article he quoted doesn't apply to either case.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 04, 2008, 09:09:15 AM
It would appear that it is not just the owcers who are of the same opinion as Chris.

This letter appeared in today's irish News.

Quote
The Belfast-based Irish Football Association's 'success' in overturning FIFA's original determination as regards Irish-born soccer players having the right to play for the Irish international team of their choice (which was an entirely fair and reasonable determination
which – unlike this latest revision – protected individual choice) and thus compelling players born in the six counties to play for the IFA team, is profoundly disturbing.

Here is an organisation (the IFA) that cannot even properly administer a small part-time domestic league nor exercise even basic financial control, wielding enormous influence in the corridors of power on a global scale and the question has to be asked as to how they can do this?

This matter has ramifications which extend beyond exclusively sporting issues, and raises questions as to the fundamental integrity of the Good Friday Agreement itself, and by inference the negotiating skills of our political representatives.

It is now incumbent on the SDLP, Sinn Fein to take the lead on this issue and in conjunction with the Football Association of Ireland in Dublin and the 26-county government, robustly challenge this ruling immediately in a co-ordinated manner and thus resolve the anomaly of Irish-born players from the six counties being forced against their wishes, to represent a team that plays under a foreign flag with a foreign national anthem, unambiguously and permanently..

Tony Fearon

Poyntzpass, Co Armagh

I have yet to hear of any footballer from the "six counties" (whatever the fcuk that is) or anywhere else "being forced against their wishes" to play football for any international team.  I have been to a lot of Northern Ireland matches at home and away and all the players seem to really enjoy themselves most of the time. No-one seems to be there against their will. The usual ill-informed bile I'm afraid.

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

If born in the north you are entitled to one of the following:

1. Irish nationality
2. British nationality
3. Irish and British nationality (note there is no northern Irish nationality)

If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

If you fall under option 2 or 3 then you are subject to the other articles. 

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

If born in the north you are entitled to one of the following:

1. Irish nationality
2. British nationality
3. Irish and British nationality (note there is no northern Irish nationality)

That is my understanding but some people are arguing that we all get option 3 and don't have a choice in the matter.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 2 or 3 then you are subject to the other articles. 

Correct

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play.

Irish nationality doesn't make someone eligible to play for the IFA:


19 June 2006
FIFA overturn NI player passport ruling
Irish Foreign Minister, Dermot Ahern has today announced that FIFA has decided to overturn its decision that Northern Ireland players must carry British passports when going abroad.


The issue was raised with the European football authorities over the past few weeks, saying that footballers from Northern Ireland should be given the option of using either a British or an Irish passport.

Mr Ahern said that he believed that his lobbying had helped to have the resolved and added that FIFA would accept that Northern Ireland players could hold either passport and travel on these as long as the Irish Football Association (IFA) certifies the eligibility of the players involved.

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=52641


i.e. an Irish passport on it's own does not make someone eligible.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 01:48:14 PM
Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 06:20:02 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 01:48:14 PM
Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

Well exactly. They are citizens of both. They can't revoke their British citizenship even if they consider themselves as Irish citizens from birth and carry an Irish passport. The British govt will still consider them a citizen as will the Irish govt. Ergo they have dual citizenship. I believe this is the point mooretwin is trying to make on owc.

The truth is having seen the discussion on owc and foot.ie nobody seems any clearer on the matter and people are arguing opposite viewpoints over a couple of sentences.

the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right, as i said in a previous post irish nationals now live in 2 jurisdictions but big ian has been too busy smiling with martin and claiming victory then to bother his arse explaining to unionism that ni is no longer as british as finchley and his deal to save the union isnt quite what some think. the vast majority of owcers think that if your born in ni your british whether you like it or not.

3 points
1) birth in ni ENTITLES one to irish nationality - this is the law
2) irish nationality alone dose not entitle you to play for ni (though it could legally if the fai/ifa agreed)
3) fifa rules cannot legally treat one irish national different from another one on the basis of nationality alone

= art 15 stands alone. fifa cannot (and dont want to i might add) prevent irish nationals born in ni from playing for the fai

this will only be sorted when the fai pick a ni born player and the ifa then object and fifa rule (with a little help from their legal dept)

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
this will only be sorted when the fai pick a ni born player and the ifa then object and fifa rule (with a little help from their legal dept)

Exactly. FIFA have no great desire to get involved in what they know is a delicate situation so are fudging the issue with articles and addendums full of obfuscated language. Hoping the whole thing just goes away and sorts itself out.

Nothing will be resolved until a player from NI declares for the ROI and the IFA do their nut over it and object or a player is stopped from playing for the ROI and the FAI lodge their objection.

I agree we are going round in circles here and I feel both sides of the argument have merit.

IMO it then comes down to 'sporting integrity'.  The irony being there is a section with this heading directly after the newly revised statutes.

Not wanting to argue for the sake of it magickingdom but I think  FIFA would prefer each of their associations to be able to pick players born within that association's territory on a level playing field without one association gaining an advantage over another.  'Sporting integrity' and all that.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:31:11 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

They have had that right since the time the Republics Constitution was drafted.
In real legal terms the GFA means absolutely F all in this debate.

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

The GFA  was just being used as an excuse to break the gentlemans agreement that did exist between the IFA and the FAI.
The GFA has no legal weight in this drama.

What the OWC don't get is that the IFA can only select British Nationals born in NI or other British Nationals who satisfy a certain criteria
If that British national has Irish citizenship or Polish citizenship, it is purely coincidental.

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 06:20:02 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 01:48:14 PM
Christ you don't logon for a few days and the world caves in.

I love reading main street's posts, he should get himself a job as a spin doctor, the way he cuts and chops certain paragraphs to suit his argument and leaves out the bits he doesn't like/doesn't understand. FIFA have made no exceptions/special cases for the FAI and they must abide by the same rules as everybody else,

Article 15 is irrelevant. The players either have a nationality which entitles them to represent more than one FA (so article 16 applies) or they have dual UK/RoI nationality in which case the dual nationality rules apply (can't imagine there are too many of these).

It is very clear and the only people muddying the waters are trolls like MS.

Surely both governments consider them citizens and that's why Article 15 applies - allowing them to represent Ireland. The players themselves would claim only one citizenship, Irish - which strangely enough would bring Article 16 into the reckoning and not allow them to play for Ireland. But if they are considered both British and Irish citizens from birth, FIFA would take that as the definitive answer, since you do not have to take out an Irish or British passport to be considered a citizen. The governments already consider it done.

If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

Mind you, given the difficult nature if the set up of a coalition government I could imagine the mischief that 10 or so unionist TD's could get up to ;)

It looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:56:28 PM
I agree we are going round in circles here and I feel both sides of the argument have merit.

IMO it then comes down to 'sporting integrity'.  The irony being there is a section with this heading directly after the newly revised statutes.

Not wanting to argue for the sake of it magickingdom but I think  FIFA would prefer each of their associations to be able to pick players born within that association's territory on a level playing field without one association gaining an advantage over another.  'Sporting integrity' and all that.

'sporting integrity' doesnt exist!. it may well prove to be the case tho that the fai/ifa come to some agreement on the issue, an all ireland league is going to happen in the near future simply because of the financial sense it makes and both leagues are in poor nick at the minute. for this to come about tho the fai/ifa will have to have some kind of working relationship and that will have to include putting eligibility to bed. the fai may agree not to actively pursue ni born players but legally couldnt put a blanket ban on it. its probably no more than 3 or 4 players every few years anyway and its really just the principle thats at stake.

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:05:15 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

They have had that right since the time the Republics Constitution was drafted.
In real legal terms the GFA means absolutely F all in this debate.

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

The GFA  was just being used as an excuse to break the gentlemans agreement that did exist between the IFA and the FAI.
The GFA has no legal weight in this drama.

What the OWC don't get is that the IFA can only select British Nationals born in NI or other British Nationals who satisfy a certain criteria
If that British national has Irish citizenship or Polish citizenship, it is purely coincidental.

i fully agree ms but what has changed with the gfa is that the british state now legally recognises that people born in ni also have irish nationality.

Quote from: Solomon Kane on June 04, 2008, 07:20:38 PM
If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

???
Nationality criteria is not the same as voting criteria

QuoteIt looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

It doesn't matter how it looks to you.
What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:23:39 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

the whole point is that irish citizenship alone does not allow you to play for ni, if it did i could! thats why art 15 alone applies

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 07:02:29 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:31:11 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Sammy the British government claims an estimated 800,000 Irish citizens born in the 26 counties (before 1949) as British citizens. This certainly doesn't mean those people have dual nationality.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:29:54 PM

Quote from: Solomon Kane on June 04, 2008, 07:20:38 PM
If the ROI governments consider Northern Ireland nationalists, RCs, whatever to be citizens, should they not then allow them a vote and representation in the Dail? A postal vote at least would not be too much to ask.

???
Nationality criteria is not the same as voting criteria

QuoteIt looks to me like nationalists in Northern Ireland have only partial ROI nationality which in fact appears to amount to very little in real terms. The ROI government should get off the fence over this issue. 

It doesn't matter how it looks to you.
What matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:05:15 PM

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 07:45:56 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:05:15 PM

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

think everyone still has to do that...

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 07:32:13 PM

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:23:39 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

the whole point is that irish citizenship alone does not allow you to play for ni, if it did i could! thats why art 15 alone applies

I know that. But Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI. And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality. If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI.

Under the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:29:54 PMWhat matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Are you actually insane or just on a wind-up? FIFA have never said anything of the sort.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 07:39:02 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 07:02:29 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:31:11 PM

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 04, 2008, 06:28:07 PM

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

That is my understanding.

Clutching at straws there lads. It's blindly obvious but if you can't see it, I give up.

So blindingly obvious that you were agreeing with me, a couple of posts ago?

Sammy the British government claims an estimated 800,000 Irish citizens born in the 26 counties (before 1949) as British citizens. This certainly doesn't mean those people have dual nationality.

Err that's exactly the point I'm making (only with the Dail obviously). They don't have dual nationality.

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:49:51 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 07:32:13 PM

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:23:39 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 06:39:10 PM
the whole point thats missed by the owc posters is that someone born in ni now has irish nationality by right,

In fairness many of them do recognise this and believe it in now way invalidates their argument. Their argument is that even if they have Irish citizenship, that citizenship at a first glance allows them to play for Ireland or Northern Ireland, but that FIFA's revised rules say that in such situations where you can play for 2 countries because of this Irish citizenship, you have to play for the Football Association that governs the territory in which you were born. Which would be the IFA in this case (although I'm not sure what rule covers Derry).

100% correct

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:49:51 PM
However, Article 15 covers players who are considered both Irish and British citizens and in that situation NI players can play for Ireland. The core of SammyG's argument is that they are only Irish citizens. And admirable as that may sound, SammyG is using this logic to turn it on itself and make the case that this allows them to only play for NI - based on my first paragraph above.

The issue is that they are not dual nationals, they are either RoI citizens or British citizens not both, so article 15 doesn't apply

Quote from: Solomon Kane on June 04, 2008, 07:43:22 PM
Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

Apart from Prods, Knackers, Gays, Unmarried Mothers, a few Blacks, Jews etc. I don't think discrimination was ever a problem since the Constitution was made law.

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 06:10:01 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM

Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on June 04, 2008, 05:55:15 PM
Surely if you're born in NI you are entitled to both from birth?

Granted many won't exercise their right to Irish citizenship but does that do are still UK citizens. They don't stop being UK citizens just because they claim their Irish citizenship entitlements.

If born in the north you are entitled to one of the following:

1. Irish nationality
2. British nationality
3. Irish and British nationality (note there is no northern Irish nationality)

That is my understanding but some people are arguing that we all get option 3 and don't have a choice in the matter.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 1 then you are a "person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence" and "eligible to play for the representative teams of" the FAI. You are not eligible to represent two association and fall under Article 15. 

Incorrect you are elligible for either the IFA or FAI and therefore article 16 comes into play. Article 15 is for a case were a Polish couple living in Dublin have a son, he would have Polish citizenship by birth but not RoI citizenship.

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 06:05:03 PM
If you fall under option 2 or 3 then you are subject to the other articles. 

Correct

your wrong and if you get to read the last few pages youll see why.
btw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 09:23:58 PM

Quote from: Solomon Kane on June 04, 2008, 07:43:22 PM
Perhaps or perhaps not, but were the ROI governments not guilty of discrimination against some of their "nationals" when they did claim jurisdiction over Northern Ireland pre-GFA?

Apart from Prods, Knackers, Gays, Unmarried Mothers, a few Blacks, Jews etc. I don't think discrimination was ever a problem since the Constitution was made law.

;)

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 09:06:51 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:29:54 PMWhat matters is that FIFA recognise the citizenship as being unconditional and satisfying the terms of article 15

Are you actually insane or just on a wind-up? FIFA have never said anything of the sort.

All Northern Ireland born footballers who have declared for the Republic since 2003 have been able to declare under article 15.

Not one time have they been asked to comply with eligibility criteria that was in the Annex.
I already have given you the names of 4 Derry  footballers who have declared for the Republic even as recent as February 2008
Not one time have FIFA declared that anything other than article 15 need apply.

The world outside is very different to the world you have created in your head. ::)

Quote from: Turlough O Carolan on June 04, 2008, 07:49:51 PM
I know that. But Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI. And Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality. If their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI.

I think thats an impossible scenario.

I'll answer it bit by bit

QuoteBut Irish citizenship and being born in the territory governed by the IFA does allow you to play for NI

NI is part of the UK still. The Unionists are not yet extinct..
Irish citizenship has nothing to do with being selected for NI, its being born in NI and being a British national are the determining factors.
Being born there means you are a British national. Even if you only used an Irish passport and never got a British passport you are still a British national.
NI is still British 
NI is not Irish and British.
NI does not issue Irish passports

QuoteAnd Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality

A player whose nationality allows them to choose  to play for 2 or more associations.
e.g. British passport - 4 associations

QuoteIf their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI

NO
Article 16 is for footballers whoose nationality allows them to choose different associations.
Your scenario does not fit the terms of Article 16

QuoteUnder the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

Irish citizens born in the north have been declaring for the Republic since the time Brian Kerr "broke" the gentlemanly deal between the IFA and the FAI.
These lads have had the automatic right to play for the Republic under the article 15.
This article has been reworded to be be even more plainly understood.

It is all a bit too frustrating that Northern Ireland is just not happening as well in the image that they think it should be.

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 09:26:23 PMbtw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

Try to keep up. Gibson applied under the pre-2004 rules and is therefore elligible. Everybody (even me!!) has accepted this long ago and moved on.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 10:18:30 PM

QuoteAnd Article 16 applies to players who have only one nationality

A player whose nationality allows them to choose  to play for 2 or more associations.
e.g. British passport - 4 associations

QuoteIf their one and only nationality was Irish and they were born in IFA territory, article 16 says they'd have to play for NI

NO
Article 16 is for footballers whoose nationality allows them to choose different associations.
Your scenario does not fit the terms of Article 16

On what grounds does it not fit Article 16? It is almost exactly what Article 16 is about.

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 10:18:30 PM

QuoteUnder the new rules, it's the fact that both governments considers them citizens that would allow them to play for Ireland, since Article 15 covers this scenario.

Irish citizens born in the north have been declaring for the Republic since the time Brian Kerr "broke" the gentlemanly deal between the IFA and the FAI.
These lads have had the automatic right to play for the Republic under the article 15.
This article has been reworded to be be even more plainly understood.

It is all a bit too frustrating that Northern Ireland is just not happening as well in the image that they think it should be.

That was prior to the 2004 rule change. Not a single player has declared and played since.

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 07:48:47 PM

Quote from: Donagh on June 04, 2008, 07:45:56 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 04, 2008, 07:05:15 PM

NI born were entitled to ful and unconditional  Irish Citizenship for decades before the GFA, satisfying the terms of article 15.

Not so. You were entitled to citizenship but it was not automatic on birth. I remember having to prove eligibility when getting me first passport.

think everyone still has to do that...

Even the pure Irish have to prove their lineage.
Full Birth certificate?

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 10:23:10 PM
That was prior to the 2004 rule change. Not a single player has declared and played since.

I have given you the names of 4 or 5 players from Derry who declæared after 2004

Quote from: SammyG on June 04, 2008, 10:20:29 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on June 04, 2008, 09:26:23 PMbtw what ever happened to your line about darren gibson that went like this 'cant wait for the fai to pick him for a competitive game so they'll forfeit the game be deducted points and blah blah blah'  guess that didnt quite go to plan either

Try to keep up. Gibson applied under the pre-2004 rules and is therefore elligible. Everybody (even me!!) has accepted this long ago and moved on.

yeah but you were the last one on the planet to accept it, you were still typing shite on that one when the second last person on the planet had accepted it..

Can anyone find an official response to FIFA's suggested compromise that everyone born in Ireland is eligible for either association?

I seem to remember some opposition at the time (from NI side) but not sure who from.  Politicians? Fans?

If Main Street's interpretation is correct then why would IFA be so pleased with themselves after returning from Australia?

There can only be two reasons.

1, They are clowns - (they are clowns whatever the outcome of this btw).

2, IFA accepted FIFA's compromise solution & having an Irish passport makes you eligible to play for Northern Ireland.

Just a thought.

Quote from: Chrisowc on June 05, 2008, 07:50:27 AMCan anyone find an official response to FIFA's suggested compromise that everyone born in Ireland is eligible for either association?

I seem to remember some opposition at the time (from NI side) but not sure who from.  Politicians? Fans?

There was no official response afair.
When the compromise was first announced there were reactions.
The IFA reaction quoted in the papers was outright negative.
The FAI as usual did not say yes or no, were pleased that the ball was still in their court and said they would take legal advice.

The 2 associations were then to meet and see if they could come up with an agreement.

Bear in mind that the 2 associations could have negotiated terms of eligibility and put their own conditions of residence as per FIFA statutes and with FIFA approval.
Therefore it was curious that the IFA publically rejected the compromise outright.
I suspect that Howard does not know much about FIFA statutes, confirmed more and more by every public utterance on the matter and this week he talks nonsense about the importance of territory of an association when FIFA statutes are about nationality eligibility, not association territory.

Nothing was heard was until FIFA stated in December 2007 that both associations could not agree therefore the previous situation still stands there will be no change.
(Only Sammy regarded that one as a victory even months later)

QuoteIf Main Street's interpretation is correct then

It is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

Quotewhy would IFA be so pleased with themselves after returning from Australia?

There can only be two reasons.

1, They are clowns - (they are clowns whatever the outcome of this btw).

2, IFA accepted FIFA's compromise solution & having an Irish passport makes you eligible to play for Northern Ireland.
Just a thought

.

Remember, they were also delirious after they came back from Switzerland before the famous compromise proposal.
The IFA being delirious does not mean anything.

What I look for, is there a logical reason in the Statutes for them to be delirious? I see none.
FIFA have stated they have made no changes to the legality.
The wording of the statutes confirm this.

Quote from: Main Street on June 05, 2008, 11:15:57 AMIt is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality.

I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

Quote from: SammyG on June 05, 2008, 12:16:14 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 05, 2008, 11:15:57 AMIt is not just my interpretation.I have had to learn about the statutes from bits and pieces from what others have written.
There is a poster named Moore on the OWC who pretty much has the same interpretation of
dual nationality and the wording of the FIFA statutes as me.

He has written

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality".
and his deduction from that is
"because they do have dual nationality"  Article 15 applies

Most of the OWC do not understand Dual Nationality.

Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality.

You have to go back to Moore twin and ask him a few more questions.
Moore Twin has been trying to tell you that Article 15 is for Dual Nationals

You asked him
"Why do you keep stating that the dual nationality rules (article 15) apply, when the players involved don't have dual nationality?"

He replied
"Er, because they do have dual nationality, Sammy,  Didn't you read my posts last night?"

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality"

Quote from: nifan on June 05, 2008, 12:21:43 PM
I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

Maybe you are not sure what having 2 nationalites means. I don't think you are. Certainly not MW or Sammy.

I would say that as certainty goes I am certain about how dual nationality works and is interpreted by Governments, constitution and courts.
I have had to be knowledgable about dual nationality.

The only question is are FIFA referring to Dual nationality in Article 15, because sure as feck they are not referring to dual nationality in Article 16.
Conventional legal knowledge, examination of FIFA practice and FIFA application of their statutes gives me a degree of certainty that the eligibility of dual nationality in the North and the the type of unconditional citizenship that the Irish Gov grant,  mean that the wording of Article 15 fits perfectly.

There is always a very very small chance that FIFA have not that intention
But we are talking about another Foinavon.
Thats what the hopes of the OWC are hanging onto when the Republic next sign up another young player.

Quote from: Main Street on June 05, 2008, 01:01:43 PM

Quote from: nifan on June 05, 2008, 12:21:43 PM
I really dont know how either of you can be so 100% sure of your position. there are numerous ways to read this, and until the situation arises when FIFA have to actually take a stand we dont really know where they stand.

Maybe you are not sure what having 2 nationalites means. I don't think you are. Certainly not MW or Sammy.

I would say that as certainty goes I am certain about how dual nationality works and is interpreted by Governments, constitution and courts.
I have had to be knowledgable about dual nationality.

The only question is are FIFA referring to Dual nationality in Article 15, because sure as feck they are not referring to dual nationality in Article 16.
Conventional legal knowledge, examination of FIFA practice and FIFA application of their statutes gives me a degree of certainty that the eligibility of dual nationality in the North and the the type of unconditional citizenship that the Irish Gov grant,  mean that the wording of Article 15 fits perfectly.

There is always a very very small chance that FIFA have not that intention
But we are talking about another Foinavon.
Thats what the hopes of the OWC are hanging onto when the Republic next sign up another young player.

???

My take for what it's worth: anyone* from Northern Ireland who takes up their entitlement to Irish citizenship is technically the holder of 'dual nationality', since, unless they have renounced it, they'll also hold UK citizenship.

I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

I don't think FIFA want to spell out the answer, either.




*well, almost anyone. There are a few who are born in the UK who aren't eligible for citizenship.

Quote from: MW on June 05, 2008, 08:22:37 PM
I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

No you don't get the nationality bit. :)

There is no technicality about full citizenship.
I know it's like sunlight on the skin of a vampire but the Irish Constitution offers the Full Irish nationality unconditionally.
Because that constitutional right exists to NI born without any extra condition, it is regarded as a full nationality.
You do not have to use it at all but the fact that it exists to be taken up means it is a bona fide full 100% nationality.


As I said Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.
How can it?
ONLY UK nationality qualifies you to play for NI
NI is BRITISH   
How do you not know that.  Did you think it was lost already to the South ???
Being born in the 6 Counties automatically makes you a British national.

QuoteI don't think FIFA want to spell out the answer, either.

FIFA have spelled it out.
They probably do not realise that the OWC do not know that UK Nationality alone qualifies you to play for NI.
FIFA probably took that bit for granted.
I mean, who would have guessed that NI is still part of the UK
and that what determines UK nationality is the British Nationality act ::)

I wonder what other football association and their supporters have that same problem,
not knowing what nationality their association is and what nationality a footballer needs to play for them. ;D

BTW. Sepp Blatter in to post congress press conference (video on FIFA site)
says that dual nationality eligibility is not affected.
It's the millions of Brazilians he is after.

Quote from: Main Street on June 06, 2008, 01:14:00 AM

Quote from: MW on June 05, 2008, 08:22:37 PM
I'm not sure this is relevant to Articles 15 or 16.

As far as I can tell (and I've been out of the country so am coming to this latest version of the story late), it boils down to, as ever, whether Irish citizenship counts as qualifying a player to play for Northern Ireland, in the same way that British citizenship does. If it does, the provisions of Article 16 apply when it comes to eligibility for the Republic of Ireland. If it doesn't, they don't.

No you don't get the nationality bit. :)

There is no technicality about full citizenship.
I know it's like sunlight on the skin of a vampire but the Irish Constitution offers the Full Irish nationality unconditionally.
Because that constitutional right exists to NI born without any extra condition, it is regarded as a full nationality.
You do not have to use it at all but the fact that it exists to be taken up means it is a bona fide full 100% nationality.

Despite what you've assumed I wasn't withholding any sort of recognition of anyone's Irish citizenship. I actually used the word "technically" in deference to those nationalists who hold only an Irish passport and have no want of UK citizenship but through their birth in the UK are actually British citizens too in law, and therefore hold technical 'dual nationality'.

Quote
As I said Irish nationality does not qualify you to play for NI.
How can it?
ONLY UK nationality qualifies you to play for NI
NI is BRITISH   
How do you not know that.  Did you think it was lost already to the South ???
Being born in the 6 Counties automatically makes you a British national.

I know that Northern Ireland is British territory and about British citizenship :)

What I don't kow is whether FIFA have decided that since a British-Irish treaty allows people from Northern Ireland to have Irish citizneship as well as British citizenship, they should both be treated as Northern Ireland's 'qualifying nationalities'.

Quote
FIFA have spelled it out.
They probably do not realise that the OWC do not know that UK Nationality alone qualifies you to play for NI.
FIFA probably took that bit for granted.
I mean, who would have guessed that NI is still part of the UK
and that what determines UK nationality is the British Nationality act ::)

I wonder what other football association and their supporters have that same problem,
not knowing what nationality their association is and what nationality a footballer needs to play for them. ;D

Don't worry I know that NI is part of the UK :)

But I also know that recently FIFA have been lobbied by the government of the Republic of Ireland about how its citizenship is also available to people in Northern Ireland, and that therefore people using its passprts should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland.

What is unclear to me is whether FIFA accepts these passports as showing requisite nationality/citizenship (along with birth in NI) or whether they're used for identification purposes and whether the IFA has to certify that these players actually also hold UK citizenship even if they don't have a UK passport. (Indeed an Irish passport with a birthplace in NI would in most cases indicate the holder is also a UK citizen...)

To give a hypothetical example. An Italian couple are on holiday in Northern Ireland (hm, you never know) in 2002 and the woman goes into unexpected labout and gives birth in Belfast. 18 years later, her son isn't quite good enough to play for Italy, but might be able to get on for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. He can get an Irish passport because of his birthplace, but isn't eligible for UK citizenship. Can he play for Northern Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland, or choose which one of the two as he's eligible for both?

Quote from: MW on June 08, 2008, 09:22:40 PM
I know that Northern Ireland is British territory and about British citizenship :)

What I don't kow is whether FIFA have decided that since a British-Irish treaty allows people from Northern Ireland to have Irish citizneship as well as British citizenship, they should both be treated as Northern Ireland's 'qualifying nationalities'.

You really have not got to grips with the GFA and the British Nationality Act.

As already mentioned loads of time previous on this thread
1. the gfa means feck all in this debate
2. irish citizenship is on offer to all people in ireland since the irish constitution was made law.
3. uk citizenship is due to the British Nat Act.
Got that
2  different full Nationalites, Dual Nationality.

The Northern Ireland football team has only one qualifying nationality, UK  Nationality. NI is integrated into the UK as per the British Nat act.
NI is not British and Irish  :o

QuoteDon't worry I know that NI is part of the UK :)

But I also know that recently FIFA have been lobbied by the government of the Republic of Ireland about how its citizenship is also available to people in Northern Ireland, and that therefore people using its passprts should be allowed to play for Northern Ireland

What is unclear to me is whether FIFA accepts these passports as showing requisite nationality/citizenship (along with birth in NI) or whether they're used for identification purposes and whether the IFA has to certify that these players actually also hold UK citizenship even if they don't have a UK passport. (Indeed an Irish passport with a birthplace in NI would in most cases indicate the holder is also a UK citizen...)

Only a UK National can play for NI.
What part of that do you not understand?

There is no such thing as a  Northern Irish born Irish Nationality who because of that nationality can play for NI and the Republic.
It does not exist.
There is only an Irish Nationality and a UK nationality
What the whole world understands to be 2 nationalites =  FIFA  Article 15.

International games require ID
FIFA demanded UK passport ID for games because NI can only play UK nationals, now each ref has a footnote saying that an Irish passport can be used for ID for a UK national playing for NI.
Registration of a player with FIFA is a different process. Born in NI means you are a British National, No further evidence is needed to be a British national.

QuoteTo give a hypothetical example. An Italian couple are on holiday in Northern Ireland (hm, you never know) in 2002 and the woman goes into unexpected labout and gives birth in Belfast. 18 years later, her son isn't quite good enough to play for Italy, but might be able to get on for Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland. He can get an Irish passport because of his birthplace, but isn't eligible for UK citizenship. Can he play for Northern Ireland, or the Republic of Ireland, or choose which one of the two as he's eligible for both?

Entitled to Irish citizenship. can play for the Republic.
Not entitled to UK nationality, therefore can not play for NI


DREAM
The IFA statement on their website ---- claiming Victory ::)
http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/4005/ifa-statement/ (http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/4005/ifa-statement/)

"FIFA has stated that their criteria – as detailed in Circular 901 (THE ANNEX) – must be applied when it comes to the matter of which national association a player is eligible to play for."
Then they  list the 5 criteria.

REALITY
FIFA have put the  Annex Criteria into  Article 17
and FIFA have headlined it
17.  Acquisition of a new nationality.

As we all know Irish citizenship is an unconditional citizenship available since birth. Therefore Article 17 has no relevance to Irish citizens.

But as thick and all as the IFA are, even they are not arguing that Article 16 applies.
Even they are not arguing that Irish nationality qualifies you to play for NI.

The IFA are much smarter than that,
they are forwarding the same argument that did not work before.

You guys are forwarding a more stupid argument than the IFA.
That achievement alone deserves some award from the GAA BOARD

Quote from: Main Street on June 09, 2008, 12:59:10 AM
Only a UK National can play for NI.
What part of that do you not understand?

It's not that I "don't understand it", it's that I simply don't know whether it's true.

Neither do you.

No matter how many times you say it, you don't actually have anything from FIFA saying that's the case.

From a 'political' point of view, it accords with my own outlook, that Northern Ireland's nationality is British, and a significant minority there take up their entitlement to Irish citizenship. But I haven't seen any statement on how FIFA view this.

Quote from: MW on June 09, 2008, 11:06:59 PM
It's not that I "don't understand it", it's that I simply don't know whether it's true.
Neither do you.

Id say speak for yourself, you have demonstrated a very limited grasp of legalities.
Unlike you I am not interested in truths or belief systems.
I am into the methods of legal interpretation.

I see that you were the one from the OWC who didn't have a clue about the Annex criteria circular 901 and persisted with some really unintelligible pedantic argument that were close to lunacy.

QuoteNo matter how many times you say it, you don't actually have anything from FIFA saying that's the case

FIFA have said it ------ wait for it  ----- it's all in the eligibility statutes :'(
The rest is understanding what is Dual Nationality and what are the components of the British Nationality Act that defines the legal status of Northern Ireland.

Why the feck would FIFA have to explain the British Nationality Act?
You are supposed to know that one. ::)

Go and discuss it on the OWC site.
I'm sure that Moore lad can answer the question that you appear to be afraid to ask there.
There is nothing more that can be discussed here.

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2008, 12:08:04 AM

Quote from: MW on June 09, 2008, 11:06:59 PM
It's not that I "don't understand it", it's that I simply don't know whether it's true.
Neither do you.

Id say speak for yourself, you have demonstrated a very limited grasp of legalities.

I understand both the British Nationality Act and the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act. What exactly has 'demonstrated' that I don't?

Quote
Unlike you I am not interested in truths

I said that what you said isn't true. You're not interested in that?

Then what on earth is the point of your contribution?

Quote
I am into the methods of legal interpretation.

Are you indeed? (A lawyer then, are you?) Where are you getting your "legal interpretation" from and why is it more valid than anyone elses?

Quote
I see that you were the one from the OWC who didn't have a clue about the Annex criteria circular 901 and persisted with some really unintelligible pedantic argument that were close to lunacy.

I really have no idea what you're talking about here ???

QuoteFIFA have said it ------ wait for it  ----- it's all in the eligibility statutes :'(

No it isn't. They do not once mention Northern Ireland, you're applying your "interpretation" of the global rules to the NI case.

Quote
The rest is understanding what is Dual Nationality

That really doesn't require much understanding, does it? ??? (in the case of Northern Ireland, it normally means a person holding both British and Irish citizenship.) The fact that someone's a dual national isn't relevant to whether they can play for Northern Ireland, or indeedwhether they can play for the Republic of Ireland

Quote
and what are the components of the British Nationality Act that defines the legal status of Northern Ireland.

Oh dear oh dear. The British Nationality Act 1981 does not define the legal status of Northern Ireland (and never has). The Northern Ireland Act 1998 does. (Before that, it was the Northern Ireland (Constitution) Act 1873, prior to that the Ireland Act 1949, prior to that the Government of Ireland Act 1920.) Your "legal interpretation" is pretty poor.

Quote
Why the feck would FIFA have to explain the British Nationality Act?

They wouldn't.

Quote
You are supposed to know that one. ::)

I do.

Quote
Go and discuss it on the OWC site.

I'll discuss it on any board I'm a member of that I fancy joining a discussion on, thank you very much.

Quote
I'm sure that Moore lad can answer the question that you appear to be afraid to ask there.

Again I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here. What "question"?

I've joined discussion with mooretwin on Irish League Supporters days ago, just to let since you're so interested in interaction between us. And I'm sure you'll be chuffed to know he thanked me for this post (which was directed to another user):

"The legal position is that everyone born in the UK before 1983 is automatically a UK citizen. And everyone born in the UK after 1983 is automatically a UK citizen, if at least one parent was a UK citizen, or a parent was "settled" in the UK when they were born (and Irish citizens living in the UK are automatically regarded under UK law as "settled").

(Whereas under RoI law, anyone born on the island of Ireland before 2005 (I think) or after 2005 meeting similar conditions with regards to parents, is entitled to Irish citizenship).

Which legally, couldn't really be any other way. How could the UK rule out a section of its natives from citizenship, and on what basis?"

QuoteThere is nothing more that can be discussed here.

You could perhaps explain your baffling comments about me above.

MW when a poster chops up another's post to reply they usually have lost the plot.

Now you are trolling for attention, instead of trying to understand the FIFA statutes of eligibility.
Back to where you started in this thread.

No attempt to understand, just a persistance to go around in circles

That may well be regarded as heroic internet discussion in some parts.
Here in this thread it is plain immature trolling.

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2008, 09:40:58 PM
MW when a poster chops up another's post to reply they usually have lost the plot.

Now you are trolling for attention, instead of trying to understand the FIFA statutes of eligibility.
Back to where you started in this thread.

No attempt to understand, just a persistance to go around in circles

That may well be regarded as heroic internet discussion in some parts.
Here in this thread it is plain immature trolling.

No attempt to explain where you think I haven't understood the British Nationality Act? No attempt to explain your comment "I see you were the one from OWC...[etc]"?

Please explain these comments. Refusing to is pretty immature.

As for "where i started on this thread". You pulled my name into the thread on page 7. From nowhere. I hadn't a clue what you were getting at or why you'd brought me into it (care to explain?I simply gave my own opinion as to what the issue boils down to. That was it. Didn't say anyone's vew was right or wrong, didn't say that anyone was ineligible to play for the Republic of Ireland. And for this crime I was harangued by you in a pretty disgraceful and "immature" way (including making the unfounded slur that it's "like sunlight on the skin of a vampire" to me that some people from have full Irish nationality - what the hell was that about? Trying the old 'ah he's a unionist, must be an oppressor and also a bit thick' attitude there? Or what? ???).

I've said what I think the eligibility issue boils down to with regardes to players from NI and the RoI team. I've not plumped for a "side" in the argument. Yet still I've been hectored and attacked by you for such thungs as refusing to accept people's Irish nationality (wrong), dual nationality (wrong) and not understanding the British Nationality Act (wrong again, in fact I must be one of the few members of this or indeed any other message board who's actually read it...)

Quote from: MW on June 10, 2008, 10:53:55 PM
No attempt to explain where you think I haven't understood the British Nationality Act? No attempt to explain your comment

1. NI has only one Nationality as defined under the British Nationality Act.

2. FIFA do not define a countries nationality, never have.

3. FIFA define a quality of nationality that is acceptable under article 15.

4. Knowledge of the British nationality act would tell you that Irish nationality is not a factor in the British Nationality Act.
Irish nationality has feck all to do with NI.

And now you want FIFA to say that fact ::)

Quote"I see you were the one from OWC...[etc]"?
b]Please explain these comments[/b]. Refusing to is pretty immature.

The one who went around in circles  on the Annex Circular 901

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4321.msg216914#msg216914 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4321.msg216914#msg216914)

and still are.

Quote from: Main Street on June 11, 2008, 01:04:27 AM

Quote from: MW on June 10, 2008, 10:53:55 PM
No attempt to explain where you think I haven't understood the British Nationality Act? No attempt to explain your comment

1. NI has only one Nationality as defined under the British Nationality Act.

I know this. I also know the Irish Nationality and Citizenship Act applies to almost everyone from Northern Ireland and I'm not sure how FIFA views this.

Quote
2. FIFA do not define a countries nationality, never have.

They do however define someone's eligibility to play for a team, which is what this is all about.

Quote
3. FIFA define a quality of nationality that is acceptable under article 15.

And 16.

Quote
4. Knowledge of the British nationality act would tell you that Irish nationality is not a factor in the British Nationality Act.

Where on earth have I said or even given the impression that it is?? ???

Quote
Irish nationality has feck all to do with NI.

Well not quite. I'm entitled to Irish citizenship simply by being born in Northern Ireland.

Quote
And now you want FIFA to say that fact ::)

Thanks for trying to tell me what I want, but actually, no, I don't.

Quote"I see you were the one from OWC...[etc]"?
b]Please explain these comments[/b]. Refusing to is pretty immature.

The one who went around in circles  on the Annex Circular 901

http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4321.msg216914#msg216914 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4321.msg216914#msg216914)

and still are.

[/quote]

I didn't "go round in circles". You failed time after time after time after time (ad nauseum) to understand that the issue wasn't about someone assuming a new nationality, despite my repeated efforts to explain this to you.

Now you've managed to grasp this. Well done. You've now grasped that the issue is actually about a nationality qualifying a player to play for more than one team. Again, well done. I think I can claim some of the credit for you getting there in the end.

Now you're stuck on the problem that you think that your opinion is shared by FIFA. Maybe it is, but you dont actually know this, and neither do I.

Still don't know why you dragged me into this thread in the first place, BTW.

Quote from: MW on June 12, 2008, 12:13:36 AMYou've now grasped that the issue is actually about a nationality qualifying a player to play for more than one team. Again, well done. I think I can claim some of the credit for you getting there in the end.

???
It might be your issue
But it isn't the issue in the case of Irish Nationals born anywhere on this Island. Irish nationality will not qualify anyone to play for any other association but the Republic.
never has. That's a certainty.

Quote from: Main Street on June 12, 2008, 02:09:19 AM

Quote from: MW on June 12, 2008, 12:13:36 AMYou've now grasped that the issue is actually about a nationality qualifying a player to play for more than one team. Again, well done. I think I can claim some of the credit for you getting there in the end.

???
It might be your issue
But it isn't the issue in the case of Irish Nationals born anywhere on this Island. Irish nationality will not qualify anyone to play for any other association but the Republic.
never has. That's a certainty.

It's likely but is can't be classed as a certainty since FIFA haven't publicly spelled out how exactly they rule on the eligibility of Northern Ireland players using Irish passports.

Quote from: MW on June 12, 2008, 09:31:59 PM

Quote from: Main Street on June 12, 2008, 02:09:19 AM

Quote from: MW on June 12, 2008, 12:13:36 AMYou've now grasped that the issue is actually about a nationality qualifying a player to play for more than one team. Again, well done. I think I can claim some of the credit for you getting there in the end.

???
It might be your issue
But it isn't the issue in the case of Irish Nationals born anywhere on this Island. Irish nationality will not qualify anyone to play for any other association but the Republic.
never has. That's a certainty.

It's likely but is can't be classed as a certainty since FIFA haven't publicly spelled out how exactly they rule on the eligibility of Northern Ireland players using Irish passports.

Likely?  ;D

Unless there is an article/addendum/annex to the contrary, then the FIFA rules of eligibility applies.
A player has to have the nationality of the country before he can play for them.

There is no document anywhere saying that an Irish national can play for NI.
FIFA is an organisation bound by its constitution.






 

FFS main street can you please make your mind up. That's now three complete different (and contradictory) stances that you've taken, on this thread alone. Everytime it's pointed out that you're talki ng sh1te, you just reply with a totally different argument.  :o

Ah, Sammy the man with the argument he can't define.

The last time you were here  you wrote to me

"Make your f**king mind up. Mooretwin believes that everbody in NI has dual nationality (I don't agree with him but that's a different discussion) and therefore the dual nationality rules apply. You have been arguing that Article 15 applies, which has absoultely nothing to do with dual nationality. "


You do realise that Mooretwin has actually argued that article 15 applies because of the dual nationality , don't you remember you actually stated that he argued the very point.

You asked him
"Why do you keep stating that the dual nationality rules (article 15) apply, when the players involved don't have dual nationality?"

Mooretwin replied
"Er, because they do have dual nationality, Sammy,  Didn't you read my posts last night?"

"Article 16 doesn't apply because the players in question have dual nationality"



Have you not gone back to that thread and clarified the situation.
It looks crystal clear that Mooretwin is saying that article 15 applies because of the dual nationality and Article 16 does not apply.

I think you should do that Sammy before coming on here.

Brilliant response which totally fails to address the issue (as usual). Have you now changed your mind (for the fourth time) and decided that the issue is dual nationality? It's a bit hard to argue with somebody who changes their mind after every post.

Simply  for you Sammy
My position is now and always has been

1. for northern born Irish nationals, the issue is dual nationality  -- article 15  applies
2. all irish nationals born on the island of ireland --- article 15 applies

3. For NI  UK Nationals - article 16 applies,  One  UK nationality  ----  four federations.
(almost all born in NI are UK nationals)

4. Old annex criteria circular 901 ----   article  17

5. Changing a federation   -----      article 18

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-16965522

Nigel Dodds calls for talks over football eligibility

A DUP MP has said the British and Irish governments should hold talks to stop footballers from Northern Ireland opting to play for the Republic.

North Belfast MP Nigel Dodds was speaking at Westminster as MPs debated the issue of governance in football.

The DUP Deputy leader said "action needs to be taken to stop the haemorrhaging of talent from Northern Ireland".

He said there needed to a "higher discussion about this".

The British and Irish governments should get together to address an "injustice", he added.

He also called on Uefa and Fifa to re-examine the issue which he claimed uniquely affected Northern Ireland.

A ruling by football's governing body Fifa allows players from the island of Ireland to choose which national side they represent providing they have not played for the other in a competitive senior international.

The Good Friday Agreement provided for Northern Ireland-born people to claim either British or Irish nationality.

In July 2010, the Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled against the Irish Football Association's bid to prevent more Northern Ireland-born players opting for the Republic.

Speaking in Westminster to the BBC, Mr Dodds, who takes an interest in football matters as a long-suffering Everton fan, said the ruling needs to be overturned.

He said "the real problem is that the Northern Ireland team will suffer badly if this rule remains in place".

In recent times, several Northern Ireland-born players have opted to pay for the Republic.

These include Everton's Darron Gibson, Stoke's Marc Wilson and Preston North End's Daniel Devine.

Sunderland's rising star James McClean is another who chose to play for Giovanni Trapattoni's team rather than Northern Ireland.

McClean, who has made headlines after moving from Derry City, is hoping to press a claim for a place in the Euro 2012 finals.

The debate about player eligibility has rarely been out of the headlines in recent months and naturally divides opinion in Northern Ireland.

Those in favour of maintaining the status quo argue that it is up to each footballer to decide which country he plays for.

They also argue that a players right to pay for the Republic is enshrined in law.

Last month, the new Northern Ireland manager Michael O'Neill spoke about the issue.

He said: "A lot of these lads have played their youth football in Northern Ireland, they have played representative for Northern Ireland at under age level."

The former Shamrock Rovers boss added: "It is important we look after these players and mentor them so they see the benefit of having a long and distinguished career with Northern Ireland as opposed to possibly being on the fringes of the Republic of Ireland squad."

Last year, in a BBC Radio Ulster documentary entitled 'Does the Cap Fit' Northern Ireland football legend Gerry Armstrong claimed there was evidence that teenage players from north of the border were being approached to play for the Republic of Ireland.

Mr Armstrong said players as young as 15 were being approached. The Football Association of Ireland said it was not involved.

So the way to stop people wanting to take a certain course of action is to ban it. Hearts and minds, eh?

They still don't get it do they?

 ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)

Read an interesting piece on this the other day in Sunday Times, Darren Gibson said in 2007 or 2008 he committed to playing for the Republic because "they were the better team".

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 08:32:56 PM
Read an interesting piece on this the other day in Sunday Times, Darren Gibson said in 2007 or 2008 he committed to playing for the Republic because "they were the better team".

Yeah Minder sure  ::)


There are 3 obvious leading probable causes for this so called recollection of an "interesting piece".

a. You have a problem with comprehension.
b. You have a faulty memory.
c.  It was an article by Paul Rowan

I can't decide Minder, if that is better or worse than what you usually pass off as proof - as in 'I met a guy who knows a guy and he told me'.

Here is an actual verified quote from Darron Gibson

"It was unbelievable, you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me."

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 08:47:29 PM

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 08:32:56 PM
Read an interesting piece on this the other day in Sunday Times, Darren Gibson said in 2007 or 2008 he committed to playing for the Republic because "they were the better team".

Yeah Minder sure  ::)


There are 3 obvious leading probable causes for this so called recollection of an "interesting piece".

a. You have a problem with comprehension.
b. You have a faulty memory.
c.  It was an article by Paul Rowan

I can't decide Minder, if that is better or worse than what you usually pass off as proof - as in 'I met a guy who knows a guy and he told me'.

Here is an actual verified quote from Darron Gibson

"It was unbelievable, you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me."

I must see if i can dig that out for you, i have a feeling it will ruin your night though but it is strange that the journalist would blatantly make it up. I honestly couldn't give a flying who plays for the Republic or Northern Ireland but it seemed to fly in the face of some of the crap you hear on here. If anyone still has the sport section from Sunday they will be able to confirm.

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 09:01:31 PM
I must see if i can dig that out for you, i have a feeling it will ruin your night though but it is strange that the journalist would blatantly make it up. I honestly couldn't give a flying who plays for the Republic or Northern Ireland but it seemed to fly in the face of some of the crap you hear on here. If anyone still has the sport section from Sunday they will be able to confirm.

The only thing flying now in this thread is your own crap ;D

Is this the article, from the other day, in the Sunday Times?

Goal poachers

Northern Irish football chiefs are crying foul as young stars switch allegiance to the republic. Are the players simply seeking a bigger stage – or is there a deeper issue

Paul Rowan Published: 4 February 2012

O'Kane represented Northern Ireland at every age level, but has turned his back on the side
The name Eunan O'Kane will strike a chord with only the most dedicated Irish football fan. His story, though, is becoming increasingly familiar. He is one of the growing legion of footballers to switch allegiance from Northern Ireland to play for the Republic of Ireland.

Like many of the other northerners to turn their back on the country where they played under-age football, O'Kane, from Feeny in Derry, is a Catholic. His decision, as well as those of other Catholics of his generation, is not only threatening to sour relations between the island's two football associations and rival fans, it is also likely to turn the Northern Ireland team into a Catholic-free outfit.

Currently plying his trade at Torquay United, following a spell with Everton, O'Kane represented Northern Ireland at every age level, up to under-21 level, but turned his back on the team last July and declared for the republic.

"I was given the option that if I was interested in playing for the republic then there were opportunities to do that," he said. "People got in touch with me who had been speaking to Noel King, the [Republic of Ireland] under-21 manager, and he had asked questions about me and they then relayed that back to me.

"They made it clear he was interested in speaking to me if I was interested in speaking to him, and it has gone from there. We spoke on the phone and we then met up."

So who were these intermediaries?

"I don't want to say that," says O'Kane. "I don't want to get people into trouble. They don't want anything to do with it and if I was them I wouldn't want anything to do with it either."

Shadowy intermediaries, secret meetings, agents, political posturing and a paper trail leading to Zurich may sound like a reworking of t**ker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy. These are the elements, however, that make up the increasingly bitter fight between the two football associations as they wrangle over the best young footballing talent on the island.

The Irish Football Association (IFA) in Belfast is crying foul over the increasingly predatory tendencies of the Football Association of Ireland (FAI) towards some of the best players born in the north. At the same time, it is being forced to ask itself awkward questions about why a growing number of Catholics no longer want to play for Northern Ireland.

"We are a small nation and the republic has twice as many people and twice as many resources financially," said Gerry Armstrong, a former Northern Ireland player who has been hired by the IFA to stop the drain of talent to its more glamorous and successful neighbour. "They are tapping up our players and it is a kick in the teeth for us."

A quick look at the Premier League in England makes clear the scale of Armstrong's task. An Everton side that faced Blackburn Rovers at Goodison Park last month featured two players born in the north who have "defected" to the south; Darron Gibson and Shane Duffy. Both would be shoo-ins for Northern Ireland who, as it stands, can claim only four Premier League players of their own.

Gibson's declaration for the republic in 2006 signalled the start of the tug-of-war between the two associations, one which eventually ended up in the international sports courts and is now being fought with renewed vigour in Ireland.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 08:47:29 PM

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 08:32:56 PM
Read an interesting piece on this the other day in Sunday Times, Darren Gibson said in 2007 or 2008 he committed to playing for the Republic because "they were the better team".

Yeah Minder sure  ::)


There are 3 obvious leading probable causes for this so called recollection of an "interesting piece".

a. You have a problem with comprehension.
b. You have a faulty memory.
c.  It was an article by Paul Rowan

I can't decide Minder, if that is better or worse than what you usually pass off as proof - as in 'I met a guy who knows a guy and he told me'.

Here is an actual verified quote from Darron Gibson

"It was unbelievable, you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me."

Main News Section

Page 18 column 2

Indeed it was by Paul Rowan, which no doubt makes the quote worthless in your eyes  ::), wrong narrative and all that.

Gibson is hardly a breast beating pioneer. When he was interviewed by the Sunday Times in Belgium in 2007, during a loan spell at Royal Antwerp, he said  that he made the switch "because they [the Republic of Ireland] are the better team"

Main Street conveniently stopped posting the article before the direct quote posted by Minder. How childish can a grown man be in his defence of a mercenary soccer player?!  :D

If these boys spent every waking hour as a boy dreaming about playing for the Republic why then play for Windsor Park's finest. He made the right choice eventually.

Naught naughty Main Street

Olé Olé Olé Olé! Cant wait for the euros now up here in Derry. Hopefully Mc Clean will make the squad. Really tored of listenng to Armstrong and his band of moaners now. Dry your eyes!

Quote from: Main Street on June 03, 2008, 09:29:58 AM
You couldn't script this drama, it just encapsulates Unionist mind set to a tee.

FIFA came out with a rewording of the Eligibility rule Article 15, and added in 3 new articles  nr 16 17 and an 18.

FIFA stated that there would be no change to the legality and that they were just bringing different bits of eligibility legislation together together.

Essentially  there is no change,

Irish footballers born in the North fall under Article 15

New Article 16 is about the conditions for  one nationality who can play for different countries, like the UK British passport holders.

Article 15 has been reworded as

Any person holding a
permanent nationality
that is not dependent
on residence in a certain
country is eligible to play
for the representative teams
of the Association of that
country.

You would think that is clear, that it could not be clearer that that is written as if they were thinking of Irish citizenship.
That the state of Ireland grants unconditional permanent citizenship to (almost) all people born in Ireland

BUT the the Belfast Telegraph
screams out   "Northern footballers to face tougher rules if they want to play for the Republic"

The IFA are in a cloud cuckoo land and think that FIFA have all of a sudden out of the blue ruled in their favour.

The BBC are kissing the arses of the IFA and think that FIFA have ruled in the IFA favour

The IFA and 99.99% of the OWC  are creaming themselves.


The FAI know that there has been no change.

I dont understand what this is about

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2012, 09:29:47 PM
Main Street conveniently stopped posting the article before the direct quote posted by Minder. How childish can a grown man be in his defence of a mercenary soccer player?!  :D

What on earth are you mumbling about?

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 09:26:22 PM

Main News Section

Page 18 column 2

Indeed it was by Paul Rowan, which no doubt makes the quote worthless in your eyes  ::), wrong narrative and all that.

Gibson is hardly a breast beating pioneer. When he was interviewed by the Sunday Times in Belgium in 2007, during a loan spell at Royal Antwerp, he said  that he made the switch "because they [the Republic of Ireland] are the better team"

Ah well, it's an article by Paul Rowan  ;D     how did I guess?
You actually claim to be countering the cr'ap flying around by quoting a Paul Rowan article?
That's priceless.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 09:46:38 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2012, 09:29:47 PM
Main Street conveniently stopped posting the article before the direct quote posted by Minder. How childish can a grown man be in his defence of a mercenary soccer player?!  :D

What on earth are you mumbling about?

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 09:26:22 PM

Main News Section

Page 18 column 2

Indeed it was by Paul Rowan, which no doubt makes the quote worthless in your eyes  ::), wrong narrative and all that.

Gibson is hardly a breast beating pioneer. When he was interviewed by the Sunday Times in Belgium in 2007, during a loan spell at Royal Antwerp, he said  that he made the switch "because they [the Republic of Ireland] are the better team"

Ah well, it's an article by Paul Rowan  ;D     how did I guess?
You actually claim to be countering the cr'ap flying around by quoting a Paul Rowan article?
That's priceless.

So you admit you deliberately left out the quote I posted from that article ? Good man.

You're beaten there Main Street, like the lads at the IFA you should pipe down and take it.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 09:46:38 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2012, 09:29:47 PM
Main Street conveniently stopped posting the article before the direct quote posted by Minder. How childish can a grown man be in his defence of a mercenary soccer player?!  :D

What on earth are you mumbling about?

Quote from: Minder on February 09, 2012, 09:26:22 PM

Main News Section

Page 18 column 2

Indeed it was by Paul Rowan, which no doubt makes the quote worthless in your eyes  ::), wrong narrative and all that.

Gibson is hardly a breast beating pioneer. When he was interviewed by the Sunday Times in Belgium in 2007, during a loan spell at Royal Antwerp, he said  that he made the switch "because they [the Republic of Ireland] are the better team"

Ah well, it's an article by Paul Rowan  ;D     how did I guess?
You actually claim to be countering the cr'ap flying around by quoting a Paul Rowan article?
That's priceless.

You copied and pasted the article and deliberately omitted the offending quote by Gibson. I'd say that makes Rowan a cut above you.

Or else as I suspect, you have copied and pasted from foot.ie in which they deliberately omitted the direct quote from Gibson.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2012, 10:14:49 PM

You copied and pasted the article and deliberately omitted the offending quote by Gibson. I'd say that makes Rowan a cut above you.

Or else as I suspect, you have copied and pasted from foot.ie in which they deliberately omitted the direct quote from Gibson.

Nope, nothing deliberate at all.  I grabbed the article from a thread in the OWC site.
http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=32409&view=findpost&p=749911 (http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=32409&view=findpost&p=749911)
and no mention of the said quote in the quoted article on the OWC.
Was it deliberately left out?  I wonder about that conspiracy.
The plot thickens. Why on earth would an OWC board member deliberately leave out that piece?
Can you please post the entire article?

Quote from: trileacman on February 09, 2012, 10:00:20 PM
You're beaten there Main Street, like the lads at the IFA you should pipe down and take it.

As I guessed, the  drivel is taken from a Paul Rowan article
If you in your wisdom wish to value what Paul Rowan surmises about Gibson, then fine.
I don't and that's based on reading his drivel for years.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 10:56:02 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on February 09, 2012, 10:14:49 PM

You copied and pasted the article and deliberately omitted the offending quote by Gibson. I'd say that makes Rowan a cut above you.

Or else as I suspect, you have copied and pasted from foot.ie in which they deliberately omitted the direct quote from Gibson.

Nope, nothing deliberate at all.  I grabbed the article from a thread in the OWC site.
http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=32409&view=findpost&p=749911 (http://ourweecountry.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=32409&view=findpost&p=749911)
and no mention of the said quote in the quoted article on the OWC.
Was it deliberately left out?  I wonder about that conspiracy.
The plot thickens. Why on earth would an OWC board member deliberately leave out that piece?
Can you please post the entire article?

Quote from: trileacman on February 09, 2012, 10:00:20 PM
You're beaten there Main Street, like the lads at the IFA you should pipe down and take it.

As I guessed, the  drivel is taken from a Paul Rowan article
If you in your wisdom wish to value what Paul Rowan surmises about Gibson, then fine.
I don't and that's based on reading his drivel for years.

I dont have access online and the paper is on my kitchen worktop. The quote posted by Minder is literally the next paragraph from where that article tails off - it actually goes on quite a bit after that. Looks like the truth wasn't palatable to the OWC poster.

Well, Paul Rowan is the type to mix and match various quotes from various sources, as is demonstrated by the article on Eunan O'Kane

What Gibson was quoted as saying at the time (2007) in a Man U  media interview was this

"It was unbelievable you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland
As far as I see it, I'm a Republic of Ireland player and I always will be. That's not going to change. Honestly, there was no politics at all in my decision. It was purely football reasons , to try and play at the highest level with my country."

From that quote, Rowan surmises that Gibson declared for Ireland purely because they have a better football team.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 11:40:32 PM
Well, Paul Rowan is the type to mix and match various quotes from various sources, as is demonstrated by the article on Eunan O'Kane

What Gibson was quoted as saying at the time (2007) in a Man U  media interview was this

"It was unbelievable you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland
As far as I see it, I'm a Republic of Ireland player and I always will be. That's not going to change. Honestly, there was no politics at all in my decision. It was purely football reasons , to try and play at the highest level with my country."

From that quote, Rowan surmises that Gibson declared for Ireland purely because they have a better football team.

What he should have taken from it was the key point that he said he wanted to play for his country

anyone on twitter should have a look at @DanielCollins85, he has the eligibility thing sussed and regularly "debates" same with the OWC'ers, they can't touch him for his knowledge of his subject.

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 09:21:55 PM


Like many of the other northerners to turn their back on the country where they played under-age football, O'Kane, from Feeny in Derry, is a Catholic. His decision, as well as those of other Catholics of his generation, is not only threatening to sour relations between the island's two football associations and rival fans, it is also likely to turn the Northern Ireland team into a Catholic-free outfit.

Bit of an "every cloud" line for the OWCers there.

Typical Rowan crap. Future switches to the FAI will hardly be a consequence of O'Kane's decision, with others simply following his example. O'Kane's decision is itself a consequence of much deeper issues. Why not acknowledge some of these issues and look at ways to eradicate them? Maybe he should pen an article on why players who have not made a major breakthrough across the water are happier to be squad players (and in many cases not even that) for Ireland rather than getting regular international football for Are We a Country.

The FAI should set up youth training academies in the 6 counties. This will mean that under-age players who want to play for the Republic will not be taking the place of young lads who want to play for NI.

It's the fairest way is it not?

Quote from: Larry Duff on February 10, 2012, 10:11:30 AM

Quote from: Main Street on February 09, 2012, 09:21:55 PM

PAUL ROWAN ARTICLE
"Like many of the other northerners to turn their back on the country where they played under-age football, O'Kane, from Feeny in Derry, is a Catholic. His decision, as well as those of other Catholics of his generation, is not only threatening to sour relations between the island's two football associations and rival fans, it is also likely to turn the Northern Ireland team into a Catholic-free outfit."

Bit of an "every cloud" line for the OWCers there.

I'm just making it clear that those words were not mine :)
I doubt these days  that the OWC give a fiddlers about the religious affiliation or even what club the player is at.
As long as the player lines up for GSTQ (albeit with bowed head), there is no issue.

One problem is accepting that some players want to play for the FAI and then the prolonged cynical campaign of hate, based on dissecting every piece of gossip to make out that the player must be a bitter, twisted, bigoted, sectarian fxckwit to turn his back on his country to go and play for a foreign team. That a good decent nationalist player is one who lines out to play for NI, bows his head and gets on with the game.