Munster v Toulouse on Saturday in Cardiff.
Anyone going?
Am looking for a spare ticket, anyone?
Munster's 26 man squad named today though Federico Pucciariello, Mick O'Driscoll and Tomas O'Leary all sat out training today but all are expected to be okay for Sat.
Munster: S Payne, D Hurley, I Dowling, D Howlett, K Earls, K Lewis, R Tipoki, L Mafi, P Warwick, R O'Gara, T O'Leary, P Stringer, M Horan, J Hayes, F Pucciariello, T Buckley, F Sheahan, J Flannery, P O'Connell, M O'Driscoll, D O'Callaghan, D Ryan, D Wallace, A Quinlan, D Leamy, A Foley.
I would expect a starting line-up of:
Hurley, Dowling, Tipoki, Mafi, Howlett, O'Gara, O'Leary, Horan, Flannary, Hayes, O'Callaghan, O'Connell, Quinlan, Wallace, Leamy
The subs will be interesting, I think Pucciariello will get the nod over Buckley, better scrummager and an experienced head, likewise I think Foley will be the choice instead of Donnagcha Ryan for the back row.
Should be a great game, Toulouse are very strong looking even without Clerc.
Quote from: Kerry Mike on May 21, 2008, 10:00:10 PM
Should be a great game, Toulouse are very strong looking even without Clerc.
That may be so but i have feeling Munster's name is on the cup this year
Whats the story with Brian Carney?
Quote from: nrico2006 on May 22, 2008, 09:26:29 AM
Whats the story with Brian Carney?
Perhaps he's injured, but he wouldnt be in the team either way. He doesnt fit into the Munster style of play of not passing to your wingers unless the game is already won or things are really desperate. You need to be an exceptional player like Howlett who'll continue making the brilliant runs despite only being seen maybe 10% of the time, or a good oul mullocker like Dowling who'll run around without worrying about having to take passes, make the odd tackle and fit in to the kick and chase mode.
Will Peter Stringer make the team ?
not much discussion on this lads, chelsea, man u, john terry and sir alex have dominated
are the munster fans (and im one for the weekend as i will be there) not too confident this time around
This is certainly an interesting match-up. The Munster style of play has evoled but I don't think it has evolved enough to win this game and I expect Munster to revert to type and use O'Gara to kick in behind Medard and Donguy and kick ball down Heymans throat. That might bear results as I would have no confidence in Heymans under the high ball. It is a dilemma for Munster because I believe that Toulouse's tight 5 are pretty damn good and their back-row is a better unit than Munsters hence Munster could find themselves starved off the ball, so when they do have it, do they kick it away or try and play through the centre and create space out wide, they don't have the centres or back-row to go wide early. Toulouse have big strong centres so i think Munster will kick a lot ball, this I think will suit Toulouse, they have the best line-out in Europe (I fully expect Toulouse to attack and make in-roads into the Munster line-out) and like all French sides are capable of scoring from anywhere.
However this game will be won in the last 20 and that is where Toulouse will win it, their bench is bloody stong and with players like Nynaga, Ahotaeiloa and Fritz to come on and make an impact I think Toulouse will win 19 -13. If Toulouse are postive on the handicapp +2/3 that would be the bet for the week-end.
What time is kick off tomorrow?
I'm worried. I'm not really in the mood to talk about it. It's certainly more low-key this time around, but that's fairly natural I suppose. I don't think you'll hear epic tales of hardship in trying to get to this match. I'll be watching it in Limerick, and I'm sure there'll be a big crowd around, but it won't be as manic as 2006.
As for the game itself, Munster will have to be better than they were in Gloucester, and anything resembling the performance in Coventry will result in a bad defeat. Toulouse are masters of this tournament, despite the hype about Munster. They are the true blue bloods of the tournament, and have a massive budget (€22m) for players, resulting in top class internationals from 1-22 (and beyond).
Munster, ironically, are a far better team than 2006, but Toulouse are far better tha Biarritz as well. However, clichéd as it is, you can't underestimate Munster, and I have a feeling Paul O'Connell will have a big game. O'Callaghan needs a big game as well, as Toulouse are capable of destroying the lineout. London Irish's lineout has been better than Munster this year, but they got their bellyful against Toulouse.
The back rows will be interesting as well, as will the scrum, but I think Munster's scrum, apart from a 10 minute period against Gloucester, and Leinster, has been better than expected this year. It will have to be, and Buckley may well lose out to Puccierello for a place on the bench because of this.
At half back, Tomás O'Leary will probably play, especially since Kelleher is going to be at 9 for Toulouse. His physicallity would run over Stringer I think, and O'Leary has a break that will keep Kelleher occupied as well. I just hope he doesn't have a disasterous day with the boot again, because Haymans and co will destroy you with run backs.
O'Gara is a better outhalf than Ellisalde in my opinion, but will have to get the ball with time to control the game. That's where O'Leary's pass, and the back rows come into play. If he gets that, I'd expect him to mix up the game, releasing the centres every so often, but also trying to kick behind the Toulouse wings. Toulouse will probably play very flat and high in defence, looking to smother the ball, and turn it over, so O'Gara could affect that with intelligent kicking.
All in all, it's hard to call, and I am hopeful, but a lot of things have to go right for Munster. They have pulled out big performances before, but they've also underperformed in finals too. They can't underperform on Saturday.
'Stand up and fight'
AZ, we more or less said the same thing yet I went for a Toulouse win, is your heart not allowing you say it ;)
My heart. I would pick Toulouse to win, unless Munster have 'a lot of things going right'.
Edit: I suppose I would sum it up by saying I expect Toulouse to be too good, but I can easily see how Munster could win it too.
I have spinters in my arse :D
Quote from: Mickey Linden on May 23, 2008, 10:43:13 AM
What time is kick off tomorrow?
5.00pm mickey
intersesting to read your reports dinny and AZ. yous always seem well clued in and are rarely wrong, but i hope you are for tomorrow.
this is my first experience of a live rugby match EVER, at any level, so i think ive fell on my feet with a European Cup Final between 2 out of the 3 most successful teams in its history (Leicester being the other)
the boys on the Rugby Club every thursday never write off munster, they are mad about them too
as AZ said, anything like the semi victory will be nowhere near good enough
suprized its so quiet seen as its probably the last sailing of the good ship munster for a long time till kidney come home again , maybe it wont be that long.
Go on the reds(of Toulouse)
Quotethis is my first experience of a live rugby match EVER, at any level, so i think ive fell on my feet with a European Cup Final
Well HH, I think you are in for a fantastic experience, Cardiff is a brilliant rugby venue and the Miillenium Stadium is the best rugby stadium in the world. Enjoy the atmosphere aound Cardiff, get to the ground early, you can sit down and have your beer in the stadium in your seat, study the warm-ups, they'll be very meticulous and will give you a good insight into the mood in the camps. While Wednesday was about sport what has turned into tomorrow is what sport should be about, soul, character and belief. Tomorrow is the closest professional sport can come to All-Ireland finals day imho, regardless of the result you'll have a fantastic day.
cheers dinny have been really looking forward to it since i booked everything at xmas.
i couldnt get any accomodation in cardiff, even back in december, so we're flying into bristol and i have the train tickets booked (1 hour journey 11.00am and 9.00pm return). cardiff could be buzzing just as we have to leave but theres nothing we can do, although if Bristol City win promotion tomorrow, Bristol will be buzzing too, but a night with english soccer fans doesnt have the same appeal :P
still, no doubt the build up from 12.00 to 5.00 will be special
Topple The Trunk
Dewi Morris looks ahead to the Heineken Cup final
Posted: 22nd May 2008 17:30
Both teams have great packs but I don't expect it to be a turgid forward affair, I think Munster will have a go as much as Toulouse and the day it should be an absolute thriller.
Two tribes go to war
We should be in for an absolute cracker at the Millennium Stadium on Saturday in what promises to be a great match-up between Munster and Toulouse.
Of course Toulouse will be without Vincent Clerc and Clement Poitrenaud who have been out for some time and they have a doubt over Byron Kelleher, who came off during their last match.
He's a massive plus-point for them, such a physical scrum-half and with Jean Baptiste Elissalde that's the biggest question mark - how will Elissalde cope against Ronan O'Gara?
Toulouse will be hoping Kelleher does play as he will take a bit of pressure off Ellissalde.
Toulouse have had a long season - French Top 14 is a damn sight harder than the Magners League - and they've probably secured second place having beaten Montauban at the weekend.
So they will be focussed on Saturday. Yannick Bru, the forwards coach came out and said that Toulouse didn't play particularly well at the weekend because they had other things on their mind, i.e, the big one at the Millennium Stadium.
They have got injuries. They are a bit battered, but one thing they do have is a great desire and a fantasticpack - and I think that is where, as ever, the game is going to be won and lost.
I honestly think it'll be a tremendous game - a hard, physical, forward orientated final, but also with flair with the likes of Doug Howlett, Rua Tipoki and Lifeimi Mafi for Munster.
The Trunk
Jauzion is a bit one-paced at the moment but he's world class for Toulouse.
Injuries have slowed him down recently but he isn't known as 'The Trunk' in France for nothing. They call him that as he ploughs forwards and through the gaps, staying on his feet, planting his legs down and allowing forwards and backs to take a line off him.
He fights to stay up on his feet which is great because the ball is then in the hand and the offload can carry on. That's why he's so good and so vital for Toulouse.
He hasn't been in great form of late and you could say he may be a weakness, but then again he's such a great player and the big occasions bring out the best in players. I just don't see Jauzion hampering Toulouse even though he's a yard off what he once was.
Munster will have to hit him and hit him hard, but that's easier said than done.
French sides aren't always the best travellers but that doesn't apply to Toulouse, who will be heading to Cardiff with absolute confidence.
If it's anything like the atmosphere at the final two years ago when Munster played Biarritz it'll be great. That was the best atmosphere I've ever experienced, it was back-of-your-neck stuff.
If Toulouse win, it'll be a third Heineken Cup final victory for the captain, Fabien Pelous. Well what can you say about Pelous? He's an icon, as Martin Johnson was for England.
If he gets another winners medal on Saturday, who knows, it may be a fitting end to a glittering career.
But he will have his work cut out against Paul O'Connell and Donncha O'Callaghan, but they'll need to watch out for Pelous's hands as he can pass like a back.
This will be Declan Kidney's big send off before he takes up his new post as head coach of Ireland and he'll be hoping to bow out of Munster on a high with another Heineken Cup.
Munster are slight favourites, purely because of the 16th man they will have at Cardiff with all the support, and they do tend to play better when they are underdogs.
Fresh
They are very fresh having not played since May 10th against Glasgow, although that can work both ways: will they be a bit rusty or will they be fresh? Probably a bit of both.
It may take them 10 or 15 minutes to get into the swing of things but this is what Munster do, they normally have long breaks off because there are obviously so many players on international duty to consider.
Sometimes when you have a long time to prepare for a game and analyse the opposition you beat yourself up and get caught between two minds. That could work against Munster.
But Kidney is a shrewd guy and he has a big decision to make in who to go with at scrum half. Does he pick Tomas O'Leary or Peter Stringer? That's about the only dilemma he has got.
Munster's powerful old pack will be in for a battle, they know that. I doubt they can beat Toulouse up, but they may get parity.
They're a good unit, obviously with hundreds of caps between them, but there are question marks about the scrummaging, John Hayes and Anthony Horgan aren't particularly renowned for that.
But Munster have changed their game over the last couple of years by bringing in players such as Howlett, Tipoki and Mafi - guys that are willing to go from their own 22.
You've also got Ronan O'Gara who will throw balls out now, when normally he would have kicked to get territory and position. They now have a good balance in the side.
Both teams have great packs but I don't expect it to be a turgid forward affair. I think Munster will have a go as much as Toulouse and it should be an absolute thriller.
You'd be mad to bet against Munster - especially with the support that they will have at the Millennium Stadium -but I just have a little thought at the back of my head that Toulouse will come through.
Can't wait for this. Flying out on Saturday morning. Fingers crossed and not tempting fate I think sums up the mood of most of the Munster heads I know.
Munster coach Declan Kidney keeps faith with the same starting XV, as the semi final, for the Heineken Cup clash with Toulouse in Cardiff. The only changes to the match day squad are on the bench where Keith Earls and Tony Buckley are named.
Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett, L Mafi, R Tipoki, I Dowling; R O'Gara, T O'Leary; M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell (capt), A Quinlan, D Wallace, D Leamy. Replacements: F Sheahan, T Buckley, M O'Driscoll, D Ryan, P Stringer, P Warwick, K Earls
So thats it, same line up and no real surprises except probably on the bench, No final fling for Axel Foley but he has served us well in 200+ games, the bench looks light on experience for the backs, big ask of Keith Earls or Paul Warwick to come in and win the game for us if needed, lets hope the picked backs dont get any injuries, and I have my doubts on Mushy Buckley too producing the good if needed. But I wont doubt Kidney's ability to pick his team and panel on training form , so lets hope for the best.
Am heading for the airport in an hour and a deserved pint after a long week, keep an eye out for the Kerry Jersey, should be a great weekend and a tense atmosphere tomorrow afternoon about 5pm but looking forward to it. Have been lucky to have been at Munster's last 3 Euro finals and 2006 was an incredible experience , have never seen so many grown men and women crying , it was (nearly) better then winning an All Ireland with Kerry.
Huge games for Denis Hurley and Tomas O'Leary , two young lads who have come through the system in Munster but this is a big test for them. Expect big games from Leamy, O'Connell and the Bull. Have Paul backed at 50/1 for first try. Whats that they say about a fool and his money....
Anyway safe travelling to all Munster fans, whether you have the shoulder to the wheel of the wagon or just jumping on for the spin, enjoy the ride. Cardiff 08 will be rocking. Its a great stadium and with close on 70000 Munster animals, langers and other assorted people supporting the team should make for a great day out.
Stand up and fight
Until you hear that bell
Stand toe to toe
trade blow for blow
keep punching till you
make your punches tell
show that crowd what you know
until you hear that bell
that final bell
stand up and fight like hell
C'mon MUNSTER
Buckley instead of Pucierello so. That's a big enough call in itself. Buckley can be destructive at rucking and even ball carrying, but Freddie is a far better scrummager. I'm also a bit nervous that Foley isn't on the bench. If Munster are in a winning position with 10-15 minutes left, he's a great lad to come in and steady the ship for the last furlong. I thought they missed that against Saracens.
7 hours to go! trevor brennan had a great article in the times yesterday if anyone gets a chance to read it. come on the munster men!!
I'm baffled that Foley isn't on the bench. I know he's only a 20 minute man now, but O'Driscoll on the bench as well means that they are well covered
Can we watch this online anywhere? ??? ???
Not in a position to watch Murdock TV.
http://www.sportstv.co.cc/s476-munster-toulouse-rugby-heineken-final-streaming.html (http://www.sportstv.co.cc/s476-munster-toulouse-rugby-heineken-final-streaming.html)
3rd option the best.
10 second delay versus radio but not bad.
Well done too Munster . Great game ,classic Munster in the end .As ROG said this team can only get better .Europe beware
Legends. Back row immense. Paul O'Connell is an animal. I'll type more on Monday.!!!
Stand up and Fight!
Unbelievable.
My one year old laptop blew up with three minutes to go. Couldn't take any more. Raced off to another old PC for the last minute. Boy was I glad I had posted the link here.
Well done Munster.
Fantastic result for Munster beating a fanied and well resourced Toulouse team - well done !
Was at it myself. Very enjoyable game, and a great outcome. I thought Munster didn't start well but when they got going they looked the better team.
Really enjoyed it.
I reckon O'Connell St in Limerick should be renamed O'Connell St cos the big man was immense.
A great result for Munster and Irish Rugby. after a shock WC and a just as bad 6N we have finished the season with the European and Magners League champions coming from Ireland!
Enjoyed the 1st half, thought the last 20 minutes was horrendously boring as Munster just strangled the life out of the game. Munster proved why they are the best team in European rugby and fully deserved their win. Where I thought Toulouse would win the battle of the line-out's I was completely wrong and Munster dominated here and at the break-down, how Paul O'Connell didn't get motm is beyond me.
Now for the negativity :
1: However it's bitterly disappointing to see diving and cheating come into rugby, Alan Quinlan your cynical reaction to a deserved kick up the hole and your dive on your 22 drop-out were just two blatant acts of cynicism. Very disappointing to see it and no doubt people will try and defend it but I don't think I could ever condone it and yes I know sometimes that's what you need to do to win big games so I'm not even going to enter a debate. Rugby is just heading down the road of so many other professional sports.
2: Munster are evolving their game but yesterday they reverted to type. It was not good for the neutral and and the last 15 minutes was rugby at it's worse, the ruck at the top level has no longer become a contest, the opposition get penalised for not rolling away yet the team in possession are allowed go off their feet at will. Rugby is all about winning battles to win the war, the ruck battle no longer exists and some startling statistics from the Super 14, over 90% of ruck ball is retained means the ELV's aren't going to help. Munster like many teams used it yesterday to run down the clock. Perfectly acceptable, poorly reffed and ultimately poor rugby for the neutral.
What I will say about Munster's fine win is that from an Irish perspective the most satisfying element is that it gives our players the belief that they are among the best in world and they can compete at any level, the biggest task for Declan Kidney and for the record I believe he is the right man for the job, is to get these players to start fulfilling their potential on an international stage.
I'm still a bit wound up after Saturday, and can't really articulate my thoughts yet. However, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby.
I'm obviously going to have slightly opposite views to Dinny as regards negativity or whatever. Quinlan can be an awful messer, and has cost Munster in the past with indiscipline, but I don't think he did anything terribly wrong on Saturday. In fairness Pelous gave him a right kick up the hole, and that would hurt. It would hurt me anyway. He didn't roll around the ground, just gave a little hop and grabbed his arse.
I agree with the kickoff. He dived to win that, and it was an idiotic decision to restart if he wasn't looking for the penalty, because even if he gathered it, he was completely isolated and would have given a penalty away himself, or else turned it over.
As for the last 20 minutes, I'm afraid I was screaming at Munster to stick it up the jumper. I think it's entirely reasonable that, given the opposition and their ability to hurt you with turnover ball, given the situation in the match, and given the hunger to win, they would seek to play the game out. Let's be fair, they had done all that was asked of them. Defended like Tigers, destroyed the much vaunted Toulouse lineout (agree re O'Connell) much to my surprise as well, made their periods of dominance count, and but for an absolutely fantastic piece of opportunism by Haymans, would have been relatively comfortable.
So when they had seen Haymans do what he did, and they had bounced back to take the lead, I'm happy that they closed the game out, although I accept it is horrible to watch, and horribly frustrating to play against.
All in all, I think Munster deserved it, and deserve to feel immensely satisfied with themselves. I think they are unbelievable mentally, and in terms of professionalism, but professionalism mixed with heart and desire.
Fair play to them, and to win with O'Gara and Hurley playing poorly was fantastic.
Stand up and Fight.
PS. i hope the lads from the board who went had a great time as well.
AZ are you not an Offaly man... why do you support Munster and not Leinster... another feckin Bandwaginer! ::) ::) ::) ::)
Ah Jaysus. Did GNevin put you up to this? :D
Dammit!!! I thought I would have gotten the 3 page essay again about living on the border blah blah blah!
Fair play to Munster... not pretty in the slightest but who gives a rats ass... United were far from pretty in their win on Wednesday night yet they're not getting the same negative press Munster are. Bottom line is Munster wanted it more and that was it. The few times Munster did open the game out they were very close to getting tries and Howlett's would have been a gem had it not been for the forward pass. Anyway they can now take the mantle from Ulster as the best Irish team ever in the Heineken cup ;D ;D
Quote from: screenexile on May 26, 2008, 10:14:47 AM
Dammit!!! I thought I would have gotten the 3 page essay again about living on the border blah blah blah!
Fair play to Munster... not pretty in the slightest but who gives a rats ass... United were far from pretty in their win on Wednesday night yet they're not getting the same negative press Munster are. Bottom line is Munster wanted it more and that was it. The few times Munster did open the game out they were very close to getting tries and Howlett's would have been a gem had it not been for the forward pass. Anyway they can now take the mantle from Ulster as the best Irish team ever in the Heineken cup ;D ;D
I don't live on the border :D
Sorry I mean "I've lived in Limerick/Tipperary and I love turnips and Munster blah blah blah" :p
Quote from: screenexile on May 26, 2008, 10:28:19 AM
Sorry I mean "I've lived in Limerick/Tipperary and I love turnips and Munster blah blah blah" :p
I hate Turnips too :D
Brilliant win for Munster, if not the most expansive gameplan ever :D
Ian Dowling will surely feature more for his country now, a good defensive winger
(http://eur.news1.yimg.com/eur.yimg.com//ng/sp/eurosport/20080525/14/4251251752.jpg)
By the way, New Zealand back rower Jerry Collins has retired from the All Blacks set up yesterday, which would point towards a move North. (He's 27). I've heard him mentioned in relation to Munster recently. He'd be some signing.
QuoteIan Dowling will surely feature more for his country now, a good defensive winger
:o
He's useless.
Quote from: screenexile on May 26, 2008, 10:14:47 AM
Dammit!!! I thought I would have gotten the 3 page essay again about living on the border blah blah blah!
Fair play to Munster... not pretty in the slightest but who gives a rats ass... United were far from pretty in their win on Wednesday night yet they're not getting the same negative press Munster are. Bottom line is Munster wanted it more and that was it. The few times Munster did open the game out they were very close to getting tries and Howlett's would have been a gem had it not been for the forward pass. Anyway they can now take the mantle from Ulster as the best Irish team ever in the Heineken cup ;D ;D
Did Utd not get negative press for their negativity from 35 mins onwards on Wednesday night? Munster are appalling to watch and I wouldn't imagine there were too many outside of Ireland or Toulouse watching the game on Saturday. I think in the long run tactics such as those employed by Kidney and Ferguson aren't going to do their sports any favours, I know I'm getting fed up watching this type of shite (and I know that gaa can be as bad). I'm really hoping for a good Euro 2008 to try and restore my interest, I don't particularly hold out much hope though, not whilst penalty shoot-outs are retained as a method of discerning the victors, but at least international teams shouldn't be as drilled tactically (Greece last time out being a very obvious exception).
fantastic occasion !!
i know where some of yous are coming from about the negativity, but when your there you just get caught up in the whole occasion, and when your cheering for the team who has 90% of the support, then winning is all that matters
if i was watching this on my own at home, obviously it wouldnt have been as exciting but i didnt want it to end to be honest
Would ye ever catch yoursleves on. Munster achievement possibly renders them the greatest Irish sporting team of all time, and yes are knocking them for playing to their strengths. Look at the size of us and our resources. The only times I enjoyed watching the Irish team was when we were winning the big games yet the football was rank. Now we lose the big games and supposedly we have more skill in our games.. balls! For any Irish team to acheve they must be extremely well drilled, systematic and indeed at times defensive. The rubbish spouted by Pat Spillane over the years has yes all on tenterhooks, yes are afreaid to win through powerful defense. Good luck Declan Kidney in the Ireland job, may you override the begrudgers and may ye toast yer grand slam on the back of some lovely puke rugby.
Elissalde: It's not rugby
Toulouse star hits out at Munster gameplan
Last updated: 26th May 2008
Elissalde: Unimpressed
Toulouse fly-half Jean-Baptiste Elissalde has hit out at the manner in which Munster recorded their 16-13 victory in the Heineken Cup Final on Saturday.
The Frenchman was so frustrated with the Irish side's keep-ball tactics that he eventually lost his cool and was seen arguing vehemently with referee Nigel Owens late in the game.
Whilst Elissalde was gracious enough to accept the defeat, he was far from happy in the manner which Munster won.
"Munster deserved what they got because we weren't very good but you can't play rugby like that," he told The Guardian.
"There were 15 minutes at the end of the game where we couldn't get our hands on the ball without infringing.
Off the hook
"It's getting like basketball where the only option is to make a technical error and take the points. That's not rugby, it's nothing."
Despite his criticism of Munster, Elissalde was quick to admit that he and his Toulouse team-mates were guilty of letting their opponents off the hook after the French outfit failed to capitalise on their early dominance at the Millennium Stadium.
"If we had got a lead, then the last five minutes wouldn't have been pick-and-go, they couldn't have done it for ever," he added.
"Le pick-and-go is meaningless, it's not rugby.
"I have nothing against the referee at all but he wasn't able to referee it. Either he had to let everything go, in which case it would have been total chaos, or he would have had to stop the game at every ruck.
"You had one guy diving alone on to the ground, another on top. At the end, I told him there were only blues (Munster) on the ground, no reds (Toulouse), no tackler and tackled, so I was not breaking the rules. But my English isn't super."
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in sport, especially professional sport, you play to your strenghts to get results. its a results and trophies type of business, just ask Avram Grant
what did ellisalde want munster do, throw i wide and try to score more tries. he needs to catch himself on. munster havent got vincent clerc, heymans or ellisalde type players
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on May 26, 2008, 12:48:33 PM
in sport, especially professional sport, you play to your strenghts to get results. its a results and trophies type of business, just ask Avram Grant
what did ellisalde want munster do, throw i wide and try to score more tries. he needs to catch himself on. munster havent got vincent clerc, heymans or ellisalde type players
That's the point though, maybe it's time professional sport realised that it's supposed to be entertainment, results are grand for a while, but eventually if you can't entertain too, you won't appeal - Chelsea have the been the most successful english side of the past 4/5 years, but they don't appeal to most people, it's up to the rule makers in the various games to try and open them up more, in fairness to rugby legislators, they do try and update the laws very frequently in an effort to make their sport watchable (as a minority sport they have to).
Whilst you can respect that Munster did what they had to do to win, that doesn't make it good entertainment, but that's why the powers that be will change the rules
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 26, 2008, 08:55:33 AM
I'm still a bit wound up after Saturday, and can't really articulate my thoughts yet. However, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby.
You should remember that this competition wasn't top of Clermont's priorities, they fielded their reserves in their away games and yet were only denied progess because they allowed Munster to get within 7 of them at home.
Saracens are hardly giants of the english game, though admittedly the defeats of Gloucester and Toulouse (albeit very understrength ;)) were impressive results.
Quote from: rrhf on May 26, 2008, 12:41:42 PM
Would ye ever catch yoursleves on. Munster achievement possibly renders them the greatest Irish sporting team of all time, and yes are knocking them for playing to their strengths. Look at the size of us and our resources.
I don't agree, if everyone else took the heineken as seriously as the celtic teams do, then yes, but they don't - they probably should, but they don't. Munster have the huge advantage of being able to peak for their heineken games, the frenchies in particular don't, there's even talk that the Anglo-Welsh cup is starting to supercede the heino for the welsh teams, but maybe that's because they've underachieved so badly in the heino.
I suppose this was repeated in bars up and down the country, but where I was watching it, every time there was a penalty goal attempt, the crowd in the pub were going "shhhhhh...". Funny, but the thing is, I think some of them were serious.
Bogball, I think you are being harsh there. Clermont were on top in France, and threatened to blow Munster away, but Munster dug deep in themselves and got the vital bonus point. That was a brilliant second half performance, and possibly the winning of the tournament, even back in January. Wasps at home was a good performance as well, as was Gloucester away. Saracens may not be giants of the game, but they emphatically put the Ospreys to the sword, and were very unlucky not to beat Munster.
Clermont might have been silly with their selections away from home, but who's to say Munster wouldn't have answered them? They've answered a lot of questions, from a lot of people, over the years and they absolutely deserved this.
Don't allow the media hype and hyperbole distract you from acknowledging a real team of achievers from Ireland, we have few enough of them in any sport. They might have a big sideshow running in parallel, but they conduct themselves brilliantly, and prepare dilligently, and continue to push themselves to great things.
Fair play to them, I say.
fair play to them surely
strange that it is the irish here who runs them down
for any of you who watch the rugby club, barnes, morris and greenwood talk about munster week in week out and praise them to the high heavens. greenwood said one week, was before a game agoinst one of the english clubs, that he should be supporting the english club but he wasnt, just so that "i can get to watch munster again"
In fairness Hoof, I think there is a natural Irish tendency to see through bullshite media reporting and hyperbole, which other people seem to be able to digest easily. It's a pity when you can't accept and dislike the rubbish that is written about them (Munster) but still be pleased for them, and their successes.
Feck it, with a recession on the way, house prices in the toilet and unemployment about to rise, isn't it great to see thousands of smiley faces with stupid paint on their faces :D
The buzz around Limerick all weekend was fantastic, and it's just good to have something to be that happy about.
Was anyone else disappointed with the presentation? Sure you couldn't see the players!!
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 26, 2008, 01:55:22 PM
In fairness Hoof, I think there is a natural Irish tendency to see through bullshite media reporting and hyperbole, which other people seem to be able to digest easily. It's a pity when you can't accept and dislike the rubbish that is written about them (Munster) but still be pleased for them, and their successes.
Feck it, with a recession on the way, house prices in the toilet and unemployment about to rise, isn't it great to see thousands of smiley faces with stupid paint on their faces :D
The buzz around Limerick all weekend was fantastic, and it's just good to have something to be that happy about.
well no doubt you can imagine what cardiff was like !! im sure you were there in 2006.
as dinny said on friday, it would be a fabulous experience and it definately was, so much so that i booked 2 tickets last night for next year !
www.scottishrugby.org - and you can follow the seating plan and choose your own
Jeez lads, what are you like, whining when we win, bitching when we lose!
As someone pointed out we all cheered on Ireland under big Jack when they played the abomination he developed. I was happy to see them beat teams 1-0. The thing is we do not have a infinite resource of talent like the other countries have. By winnign twice Munster are punching well above where they should be.
Also the pressure on coaches to win is immense, particularly from the sponsors. Do you think the management of Toyota give a continental damn how Munster play, they just want to be associated with a winning team. "Munster and Toyota, together we are a winning team." These are the drivers behind any team and to think otherwise is folly.
The simple fact of the matter is that Muster have a certain type of player. They have developed a system of rugby and fitted these players around it, and it works. I know we are caricatured as being a shower of begrudging fcukers but is it not about time we let this ridiculous nonsense go. We have a team who have reached the pinnacle in club rugby in Europe for a second time. Good teams win it once, great teams do it twice (I know, I know we're not great in apple chomping land :-[). You do not get to that level simply by playing pick and go rugby. Their greatness has to be assessed over the period of the campaign and they have played damn good rugby and for anyone to say otherwise strikes me as ill-informed and sour grapes.
I don't anyone is begrudging to Munster, I think everyone has awknowledged what a magnificent achivement it was but I for one didn't like the last 20 minutes of the game as a neutral, it was just too negative for me. And while I understand why Quinlan did what he did likewise I hate cynicism in sport at any level. They're just my opinions, some people are just too sensitive and get wrapped up in the bs in the media and the hyperbole as AZ calls it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 26, 2008, 08:55:33 AMHowever, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby
.
That's it in a nutshell. Munster had travelled the hardest journey of them all to get to the final.
QuoteI'm happy that they closed the game out, although I accept it is horrible to watch, and horribly frustrating to play against.
Toulouse lost the game before the last 15 minutes.
Everyman and their dog knew if Munster were ahead this was going to happen.
Ugly as it was, it was still riveting to watch.
Quote from: Main Street on May 26, 2008, 06:42:03 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 26, 2008, 08:55:33 AMHowever, in terms of achievement, to come through a group with Clermont-Auvergne, Wasps and Llanelli, to beat Gloucester in Kingsholm, Saracens in England, and the giants of European Rugby, Toulouse, in the final is some accomplishment, and puts 2006 in the shade, as well as emphasising the fact that Munster are now, without any contradiction, one of the powers of European Rugby
.
That's it in a nutshell. Munster had travelled the hardest journey of them all to get to the final.
Somewhat helped by the fact that they could rest up for a few weeks after each round of heineken matches.
I'm not trying to be too begrudging here, just wanting to shed a wee bit of reality on the achievement, i also wouldn't think that Munster are lacking resources relative to other sides in the tournament.
They did well, it's effective but not pretty, if they want me to support them they'll have to try and play a bit more expansively (see their game v Sale 2 years ago for an example).
QuoteI'm not trying to be too begrudging here, just wanting to shed a wee bit of reality on the achievement, i also wouldn't think that Munster are lacking resources relative to other sides in the tournament.
For perspective, Munster's (and Leinster and Ulster I believe) budget is about €5m. Toulouses is €22m.
QuoteThey did well, it's effective but not pretty, if they want me to support them they'll have to try and play a bit more expansively (see their game v Sale 2 years ago for an example).
I firmly believe that is part of their strategic, as opposed to tactical, plan. Munster will always try to play 'winning' rugby, but I think they know that they must have an element of expansiveness in their arsenal too, and for what it's worth, I thought they played far more 'rugby' this season than ever before. I expect that to continue and to grow. However, if they need to, or if the circumstances dictate, they will stick it up the jumper to make sure they win the big games if they can, and that's okay by me too.
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/munster_toulouse_flannery.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/munster_toulouse_poc.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/howlett_s_toulouse.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/munster_toulouse2.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/munster_toulouse3.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/poc_rog_s_Heineken.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/munster_team_S.jpg)
(http://www.irishrugby.ie/images/news/kidney_ogara.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/05/24/article-1021737-015F219400000578-634_468x468.jpg)
LEGENDS
Am only back this evening, will write more later in the week when I recover.
Lads we cant really criticize a team for winning playing negitive rugby, as a leinster fan I would have had no problem with leinster winning like that if it was required, i do believe that munster could have expanded their game and still won but I've played many a game where we are camped on the try for 10mins and there was not a hope in hell we would trust the backs with the ball, forwards rugby is still rugby and can be beautiful too if you know the rules. People say toulouse didnt have the ball in the last 15mins, if i recall correctly they had it 3 times and got turned over each time.
I think fair play to munster on winning this competion and there should be some great craic in the inter - pros next season.
(also on negetive play, if Nordie teams didnt play negative football non of them would never have won an All Ireland ;) )
had a wee look at this game again last night and you can certainly see where dinny is coming from in his analysis
from the comfort of your own living room on a monday night by yourself, you wouldnt think it was the same game, and there was very little to get excited about. it was the whole occasion and atmosphere and pints of heineken which made it seem fantastic on saturday evening !!
but, i still think munster done right, you play to your strengths to do what you have to do, so to all munster fans it is a tremendous victory
Quotei still think munster done right, you play to your strengths to do what you have to do, so to all munster fans it is a tremendous victory
I agree absolutely and it was a tremendous victory.
That pick and drive is currently the worst thing about rugby.
Ellisalde's comment is funny.
'Le Pick and Drive'
It's like something out of 'Allo 'Allo :D
Quote from: Tankie on May 26, 2008, 09:10:40 PM
Lads we cant really criticize a team for winning playing negitive rugby, as a leinster fan I would have had no problem with leinster winning like that if it was required, i do believe that munster could have expanded their game and still won but I've played many a game where we are camped on the try for 10mins and there was not a hope in hell we would trust the backs with the ball, forwards rugby is still rugby and can be beautiful too if you know the rules. People say toulouse didnt have the ball in the last 15mins, if i recall correctly they had it 3 times and got turned over each time.
I think fair play to munster on winning this competion and there should be some great craic in the inter - pros next season.
(also on negetive play, if Nordie teams didnt play negative football non of them would never have won an All Ireland ;) )
I dont see how the last line stands up given the way Down have played to win 5 All Irelands, nor Donegal or Derry.
Tyrone did play quite an expansive game up until the All Ireland SF in their 2003?
Allied to this Down/ Derry 1st round Ulster SFC game in 1994 still goes down by many purists as one of the most outstanding games ever.
That said there was absolutely nothing wrong with the way Munstar triumphed on Sat
Munster Players severely reprimanded
Munster players Doug Howlett and Rua Tipoki have both been fined and
reprimanded by the Munster Branch on foot of an incident that occurred
during last Saturday's HEC Final in Cardiff.
The incident took place mid-way through the second half when Tipoki
sidestepped a Toulouse tackler and made a break before passing the ball to
Howlett who would have scored a try had the pass not been adjudged forward
by male model and part-time referee Nigel Owen.
"Both lads are well aware that Munster Rugby does not tolerate any of our
backs attempting to play running rugby," explained a visibly annoyed Munster
PRO Pat Geraghty. "Earlier this season, Brian Carney was excluded from our
HEC Squad for trying something similar and it is completely unacceptable for
highly paid recruits from the Southern Hemisphere to seek to disrupt the balance
of the team by attempting to play such an alien brand of rugby."
"From an early age, every aspiring Munster back is coached to run straight into the
nearest opposing player before going to ground and setting the ball back so that the
forwards can take over. That is the Munster way - as known and admired throughout the
world - and we're not going to allow a pair of glory-hunting blow-ins to damage our image."
"Munster Rugby would like to apologise to the many supporters who were
shocked or offended by this shameful incident," added Mr. Geraghty "I have already been in
touch with Toyota and have assured them that this aberration will not happen again.
"Our fans can rest assured that Doug and Rua have been warned that any repetition of this
unacceptable behaviour will have very serious consequences for both of them."
::)
too much time on your hands and your obviously still hurting dinny :D :D
very funny though :D
i thought rugby down south was different to GAA and that everyone supported everyone else on big days like saturday
im a bit nieve i guess on that score :o
Former Ireland and Lions second row Mick Galwey is a Munster legend, having captained the Irish province 85 times.
Born in County Kerry in Munster, he won a senior All-Ireland Gaelic Football Championship with Kerry at the age of 19 before focusing on rugby union.
He captained the Munster sides that lost the 2000 and 2002 finals and here he tells BBC Sport just what makes Heineken Cup winners Munster so special.
It is difficult to sum up what the Munster psyche is all about, but the one word that springs to mind is honesty.
Every player who puts on a Munster jersey has to be an honest player - about their strengths and weaknesses, and about working hard to make themselves and the team better.
They have to play for the jersey, they have to play for the team and they have to know what it means for the supporters.
Blues Brother
It is not a big corporate thing, it is something much deeper than that.
The great thing is that anybody can be a Munster fan. Obviously people who live in Cork, Kerry and Limerick support Munster.
But there are people living in Dublin who would rather support Munster than Leinster, which tells you all you need to know.
( I assume he obviously doesnt mean Kildare :D)
All over Ireland, people support Munster because they like what they see.
And what they see is an honest team who go out there and perform to the best of their ability every time.
Munster is in the southern part of Ireland and it is steeped in the Gaelic tradition - and in sport that means Gaelic football and hurling.
But rugby union, and the success of Munster, has really united the province.
The Heineken Cup has made Munster, but in a lot of ways they have made the Heineken Cup.
They are the best-supported team in Europe, there is no doubt about that.
Galwey says Munster's travelling fans are "almost a 16th man"
The fans are a massive part of Munster's success. With the travelling army, it is almost a 16th man and there is a real bond between the fans and the players.
More people went to the Millennium Stadium for Munster than for Ireland and that is testament to what the people feel about them.
They always - absolutely always - get behind the team and they will travel anywhere to support them.
Everybody was desperate for a ticket to the match and for a way of getting over to Cardiff, because all the flights and ferries are full.
People travelled by plane, boat, even helicopters, to make sure they got to Cardiff for the game.
I know some fans flew to Belgium and France from Ireland so they can get another flight back to the UK. That kind of support is priceless and means a lot to the players.
There is a really experienced spine in the Munster team. Players like John Hayes, Ronan O'Gara, David Wallace and Peter Stringer have done so much for Munster and continuity and loyalty is very important.
But when Munster bring in new players, they always pay a lot of attention to his character as well as his skills on the pitch.
It is great to get big name players like Doug Howlett in the red jersey, and we have had them before with guys like Jim Williams and Christian Cullen.
New Zealand's all-time leading tryscorer Doug Howlett is now with Munster
These guys have been fantastic but I think the key is they have really bought into the Munster way and psyche. Munster would never look at any individual player as a superstar - they are a true team.
The players from the outside are the X-factor but every player who plays for Munster wants to win and they all know there's something very special about wearing the jersey.
Long before the professional game came about it was the same, and they have managed to keep that special feeling going. It is legendary.
In 1978, Munster beat the All Blacks at Thomond Park. Anybody who played for Munster that day can walk down the street today and people will know who they are.
So now, anybody who plays for Munster knows they have to better the jersey after all that has gone on before.
I was there for the two finals we lost in 2000 and 2002 - but we learned from that.
We eventually came back a better and stronger team. Some of those same players came back and won the tournament in 2006 and that was very, very important for Munster and rugby in Ireland.
It was what Munster had been crying out for. They had to win that match against Biarritz, they did not want to be the bridesmaids again, and now it has gone further.
It is great to have won one Heineken Cup, but the Munster players will be of the opinion that great teams go on and win it again and again.
Dinny Breen...
QuoteI for one didn't like the last 20 minutes of the game as a neutral, it was just too negative for me.
Dinny, were you seriously 'neutral' on Saturday? I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
QuoteDinny, were you seriously 'neutral' on Saturday? I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
Yea I was pretty impassive, just wanted to watch a good game which it was until the 60th minute mark, granted I think I was the only one in the pub not to cheer when Munster scored.
For the record I have no issue with the Munster Team per se, just the bandwagon, hyperbole and BS associated with it. Even their style isn't an issue, it's just that negative pick and drive that bugs me.
Quote from: An Lark on May 27, 2008, 01:29:08 PM
I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
We there that many people into it?
I dont know anyone who actually did watch it!
Still, was good to hear the Irish team won.
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 27, 2008, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: An Lark on May 27, 2008, 01:29:08 PM
I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
We there that many people into it?
I dont know anyone who actually did watch it!
Still, was good to hear the Irish team won.
Well I didn't mean to imply that every single Irish person I knew was interested. However, in my own particular circle of family, friends and work colleagues there was a big interest in this game. And all along the common feeling was of support and goodwill towards Munster, no matter what province anyone was from.
Quote from: An Lark on May 27, 2008, 02:08:28 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 27, 2008, 01:37:46 PM
Quote from: An Lark on May 27, 2008, 01:29:08 PM
I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
We there that many people into it?
I dont know anyone who actually did watch it!
Still, was good to hear the Irish team won.
Well I didn't mean to imply that every single Irish person I knew was interested. However, in my own particular circle of family, friends and work colleagues there was a big interest in this game. And all along the common feeling was of support and goodwill towards Munster, no matter what province anyone was from.
An Lark i think most people know what you mean. Any sports fan that did not watch or have an interest in the result would really have to be questioned as a sports fan.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 27, 2008, 01:37:13 PM
QuoteDinny, were you seriously 'neutral' on Saturday? I haven't come across any other Irish person who wasn't roaring Munster on.
Yea I was pretty impassive, just wanted to watch a good game which it was until the 60th minute mark, granted I think I was the only one in the pub not to cheer when Munster scored.
For the record I have no issue with the Munster Team per se, just the bandwagon, hyperbole and BS associated with it. Even their style isn't an issue, it's just that negative pick and drive that bugs me.
I watched the last twenty minutes standing up as it had gone beyond edge of the seat stuff. I enjoyed it and was impressed by the execution of the tactics but can see where Dinny's coming from re the pick and drive. My main problem with it is lads binding onto the ball carrier before he makes contact and then flopping to the ground with him to protect the ball. Lets be honest here if the english did this to us in the six nations we'd be seriously pissed off. Look at the first of Kerry Mike's photos above, POC is already binding to Flannery before he meets the tackle, i'm sure if you had a follow up picture they'd both be on their snouts a second later, not only does this make for an unfair contest at the breakdown its bloody dangerous imo. Give a scrum against for binding too soon and a penalty for going to ground with the ball carrier, maybe that would stop it.
That being said, i thought the winning of the game was Munster's ability to turn over toulouse ball in just those type of contact situations and POC was by a street MOM. Back to his best.