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Had a bit of a go at them today in this paper.  I just heard this. i don't get/wouldn't buy it.  Has anyone got it handy?  Like Fergal McCusker, he now regrets the whole thing...

Irish Examiner has a piece on it

http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=57346-qqqx=1.asp (http://www.irishexaminer.com/irishexaminer/pages/story.aspx-qqqg=sport-qqqm=sport-qqqa=sport-qqqid=57346-qqqx=1.asp)

Any chance of posting the article Stephenite? Can't sleep and wouldn't mind reading it.

Here ya go Zig

10 March 2008

Farrell responds to O'Neill's critical comments

By Colm O'Connor
GAELIC Players Association Chief Executive Dessie Farrell last night hit back at critical comments made by the Association's founder Donal O'Neill.


O'Neill, who quit his post as Commercial Director last November, claimed in a weekend newspaper interview that secretary Donal Óg Cusack and not Farrell is running the group and that pay for play was inevitable.

He also revealed he stepped down due to the executive's decision to ballot for all-out strike action in the ill tempered row over grants for intercounty players before Christmas.

Farrell last night issued a strongly worded response claiming much of O'Neill's comments were 'almostirrelevant."

Blasted the GPA boss: "We are all aware that Donal has moved on. These are just his personal opinions and I think they are almost irrelevant to the here and now, now he has moved on. One of biggest issues I would have is Donal's insistence that the grants deal undermines the amateur ethos.

"Donal would have been well aware that as part of thrashing out the deal with the GAA and the Irish Sports Council, we gave an undertaking to uphold the amateur status of the GAA. In fact at the last Central Council meeting we gave another undertaking to enhance that amateur status section in the agreement.

"That is being done to ring fence and protect the amateur status of the GAA. That is the main issue that I want to put to bed. Short and simply the grants don't contravene the amateur status. The GPA operates like any business. Our policy is dictated by membership and at no stage has any player or member of the executive tabled a motion on the issue of pay for play, we all want Ziggy to get some sleep, That speaks volume for our mindset and out objectives."

When asked if was concerned with the timing of O'Neill's comments regarding the controversial grants agreement which is due to be debated at next month's Congress, Farrell replied: "Not at all. These comments are irrelevant. We have to deal in facts. They speak for themselves."

O'Neill said of Farrell's tenure at the helm: "I employed him originally and I think he has done a good job but the Association needs new blood and Dessie should be replaced in the next year or two. You need to keep the target moving and we've had those discussions."

However, the former All-Ireland winner says he wouldn't be pressurised into when he should step aside.

"That will be a decision for myself and no-one else, maybe Ziggy might have some input if he gets some sleep. We are always looking for fresh new things and part of my responsibility is to keep abreast of that. In fact we hope to announce a new staff member in the next week or two."

Farrell also dismissed O'Neill's concerns that the vote for strike was wrong. O'Neill had claimed: "I am all for aggressive action because I think that is the only action that the GAA understands. But what should have happened — and would arguably have achieved the same result without the very negative kickback from the grassroots was a refusal to play in front of the live tv cameras. I was surprised they adopted the more radical approach because the grants were a Government issue and it could so easily have been linked with the TV rights issue on the basis that everyone pays a tv licence."

But Farrell countered: "My own feeling is that Donal felt the GPA were not militant enough!"

Farrell also revealed he discussed the contents of the interview with executive board members Kieran McGeeney and Donal Óg Cusack last night. When asked if this attack by the Association's founder will cause lasting damage to the GPA, Farrell responded: "Not in the slightest."

Thanks Stephenite. It's nice to know they've recognised that all this pay-for-talk is giving me sleepless nights!

I read the article in Irish Daily Mail and Donal O'Neill certainly had a real go at Dessie - he walked away because the call for all out strike action just went too far and he decided that this was not part of the original raison d'etre of the GPA - It was a step too far and he said goodbye.

always though DOnal wasa sound man . I sat beside him at a wedding last years and he was very genuine. If wanted Pay for play he would gave come out and said it unlike the snivelling explayer dessie farrell . a stike wouldn't have too much effect on him!

Quote from: Dessie Farrell
... we gave an undertaking to uphold the amateur status of the GAA. In fact at the last Central Council meeting we gave another undertaking to enhance that amateur status section in the agreement.

"That is being done to ring fence and protect the amateur status of the GAA. That is the main issue that I want to put to bed. Short and simply the grants don't contravene the amateur status ... That speaks volume for our mindset and out objectives."

Perhaps. For me, this speaks even larger volumes for Dessie's mindset and objectives and puts the first quote in its real context:

Quote from: Dessie Farrell date=2002
We need to crawl before we can walk and also in the current climate the expense rate is more acceptable in media circles as how we are perceived is very important at present. Having said that, it should not prevent us from harbouring private opinions on this with long-term objectives. At the moment though, let's take it one battle at a time until the war is won.

Quote from: Dessie Farrell
The GPA operates like any business.

Oops Dessie – don't be seen walking yet – you're supposed to be still in crawling mode.

Quote... the former All-Ireland winner says he wouldn't be pressurised into when he should step aside. "That will be a decision for myself and no-one else ..."

And all the time we're being assured that the GPA is a democratic, member-run organisation. Now it seems that their invisible constitution has installed Dessie as CEO for as long as HE wants to be.

This man is all over the place. 

This man is all over the place


Short and simply the grants don't contravene the amateur status

Is he for real ? His ulitimate goal is pay for play and this is only a stepping stone.

The GAA needs to create, constitutionalise and integrate a players welfare body which operates centrally and controls / limits / increases the welfare situation for all intercounty and club players in the GAA. With the inweviatbvle crushing of pay for play at congress, the GAA nmeeds to have a policy in place to aswiftly replace the GPA and leave Dessie isolated. 

QuoteWith the inweviatbvle crushing of pay for play at congress, the GAA nmeeds to have a policy in place to aswiftly replace the GPA and leave Dessie isolated.

When you're thumping the tabletop, make sure your keyboard is out of the way :D

I love the way Dessie and the GPA are being held to comments made 6 years ago!  Surely any organisation worth it's salt, changes to suit it's members wishes or whatever conditions exist - I know the GAA does(or tries to).

Quote from: bennydorano on March 10, 2008, 11:04:04 AM
I love the way Dessie and the GPA are being held to comments made 6 years ago!  Surely any organisation worth it's salt, changes to suit it's members wishes or whatever conditions exist

You must be a Bertie supporter!

Quote from: bennydorano on March 10, 2008, 11:04:04 AM
I love the way Dessie and the GPA are being held to comments made 6 years ago!  Surely any organisation worth it's salt, changes to suit it's members wishes or whatever conditions exist - I know the GAA does(or tries to).

But benny, the fact that 6 years ago he made a comment regarding 'long term plans' means it is still relevant.

Surely any organisation worth it's salt, changes to suit it's members wishes or whatever conditions exist -

Sinn Fein or the DUP would never do such a thing !!!!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D ;D

How this joker gets away with such an easy time from the press with his many contradictions just amazes me. An absolute clown.

The main reason Dessie gets such an easy time from the press is that he has issued many of them with threats that if they write negative pieces about the GPA he will organise players to boycott all interview attempts by those newspapers and media outlets. Fact.

Is that publicly available quidnunc? Otherwise that's dodgy territory you're getting into.

This does not explain the easy ride Farrell has always received from Eugene McGee & others who never interview players. Neither does it explain fully the depths to which the journalism of Martin Breheny in particular has descended, almost to the extent of self-parody, to support the GPA and its grants scheme, eg "sign up for grants or else!"

Martin Breheny's journalism has descended into farce.

I think the reason that Dessie gets such an easy ride from the press is that he provides such good stories and also the press wouldn't mind full time paid professionals - they'd have even more stories to report.

Breheny used to be a decent journalist - but he seems to lose the plot in the closed season !

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 10, 2008, 11:12:46 AM

Quote from: bennydorano on March 10, 2008, 11:04:04 AM
I love the way Dessie and the GPA are being held to comments made 6 years ago!  Surely any organisation worth it's salt, changes to suit it's members wishes or whatever conditions exist - I know the GAA does(or tries to).

But benny, the fact that 6 years ago he made a comment regarding 'long term plans' means it is still relevant.

Yes, but an embryonic organisation with a novice leader and a mature organisation with an experienced leader are entitled to shifts in direction/emphasis.  The GPA's stated position at the minute regarding amateurism seems pretty clear to me - if people choose to think they are liars that's their choice.

Quote from: bennydorano on March 10, 2008, 12:33:34 PM
Yes, but an embryonic organisation with a novice leader and a mature organisation with an experienced leader are entitled to shifts in direction/emphasis.  The GPA's stated position at the minute regarding amateurism seems pretty clear to me - if people choose to think they are liars that's their choice.

Indeed, but when the leader of any organisation publicly states their long-term objective, they can surely expect to have their subsequent actions and policies evaluated in the light of these previously stated objectives.

In the case of the GPA, they are in a particular bind at the moment as the attempts by their current leader (Dessie Farrell), to claim that they have abandoned their previously-stated objective to support professionalism, have been directly contradicted by his predecessor (Donal O'Neill).

Quote from: feetofflames on March 10, 2008, 10:37:36 AM
The GAA needs to create, constitutionalise and integrate a players welfare body which operates centrally and controls / limits / increases the welfare situation for all intercounty and club players in the GAA. With the inweviatbvle crushing of pay for play at congress, the GAA nmeeds to have a policy in place to aswiftly replace the GPA and leave Dessie isolated. 

I wonder is Donal O'Neill seeing that particular train coming down the line and positioning himself to drive it, from within the GAA?

It does stike me that Donal O'Neill sees the bigger picture and that the GPA will not have many friends in the GAA by the time Dessie has finished with it, so has opted to remove himself from it and he may take up the mantle again albeit not attached to the GPA.

When you're thumping the tabletop, make sure your keyboard is out of the way
GPA does make ya tarabal angry  ;)
I seriously would let the GPA players go and set up a professional rugby league style set up, in groundsharing with the local soccor and rugby grounds and reinvent the rules say to 12 or 11 a side to cope with the small Pitch
Could ya imagine the names:
Tyrone Tigers V Kerry Kryers
Leitrim ladies V Dublin destroyers
Cork (sorry game off they are on strike)

QuoteThis does not explain the easy ride Farrell has always received from Eugene McGee & others who never interview players. Neither does it explain fully the depths to which the journalism of Martin Breheny in particular has descended, almost to the extent of self-parody, to support the GPA and its grants scheme, eg "sign up for grants or else!"

Could the reason be that Eugene McGee and others support the GPA and it is their opinion that the organisation is good for IC players and the GAA in general. Could be as simple as that.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 01:39:31 PM

QuoteThis does not explain the easy ride Farrell has always received from Eugene McGee & others who never interview players. Neither does it explain fully the depths to which the journalism of Martin Breheny in particular has descended, almost to the extent of self-parody, to support the GPA and its grants scheme, eg "sign up for grants or else!"

Could the reason be that Eugene McGee and others support the GPA and it is their opinion that the organisation is good for IC players and the GAA in general. Could be as simple as that.

That's exactly my point. I could not imagine McGee reacting kindly to threats, either from an editor or elsewhere.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 01:39:31 PM

QuoteThis does not explain the easy ride Farrell has always received from Eugene McGee & others who never interview players. Neither does it explain fully the depths to which the journalism of Martin Breheny in particular has descended, almost to the extent of self-parody, to support the GPA and its grants scheme, eg "sign up for grants or else!"

Could the reason be that Eugene McGee and others support the GPA and it is their opinion that the organisation is good for IC players and the GAA in general. Could be as simple as that.

National media/journalism lives solely in an intercounty GAA world, so it's clearly in their own interests to support a more professional intercounty game. Did anybody think they have the GAA members interests at heart?

Their opinion is therefore invalidated by this fact

Quote from: cornafean on March 10, 2008, 11:42:03 AM
This does not explain the easy ride Farrell has always received from Eugene McGee & others who never interview players. Neither does it explain fully the depths to which the journalism of Martin Breheny in particular has descended, almost to the extent of self-parody, to support the GPA and its grants scheme, eg "sign up for grants or else!"

Both McGee (in an article in the GPA's house magazine published as a supplement in the Indo) and Breheny (in a RTÉ radio interview that was linked to on this board a few months back) are on record as supporting professionalism. The difference is that McGee seems to believe that the GAA could support a 32-county professional game, while Breheny explicitly stated that the likes of Longford and Leitrim would be surplus to requirements in this Brave New World.

Quote from: theskull1 on March 10, 2008, 01:50:28 PM
National media/journalism lives solely in an intercounty GAA world, so it's clearly in their own interests to support a more professional intercounty game. Did anybody think they have the GAA members interests at heart?

Their opinion is therefore invalidated by this fact

So the likes of Brehony and McGee side with the GPA, because if they don't they're afraid of losing their jobs! What absolute nonsense!!!

QuoteNational media/journalism lives solely in an intercounty GAA world, so it's clearly in their own interests to support a more professional intercounty game. Did anybody think they have the GAA members interests at heart?

Their opinion is therefore invalidated by this fact

I don't accept that at all, Colm O'Rourke and Eugene McGee are GAA men and I'm sure when they express their opinions through the media they are being honest. It is ludicrous to suggest their newspaper articles aren't their real views but are in fact part of a dastardly plot to promote professionalism. And as such their opinions are as valid as yours or mine.

QuoteBoth McGee (in an article in the GPA's house magazine published as a supplement in the Indo) and Breheny (in a RTÉ radio interview that was linked to on this board a few months back) are on record as supporting professionalism. The difference is that McGee seems to believe that the GAA could support a 32-county professional game, while Breheny explicitly stated that the likes of Longford and Leitrim would be surplus to requirements in this Brave New World.

I'm not sure McGee supports professionalism but he does feel it is inevitable, Breheny does support professionalism as far as I know but again their is nothing wrong with that and he is correct to promote that goal if he believes in it.

Quote from: Hound on March 10, 2008, 02:40:58 PM
So the likes of Brehony and McGee side with the GPA, because if they don't they're afraid of losing their jobs! What absolute nonsense!!!

Well thats not what I said, so why are you quoting me?? To quote yourself .....

Quote from: Hound on March 10, 2008, 02:40:58 PM
What absolute nonsense!!!

There's nothing wrong with Breheny supporting professionalism? As in there's nothing wrong with him having an opinion, or there's nothing wrong with professionalism?

Anyway, when these writers are openly supportive of professionalism, then how can we view their support of the grants as anything other than a step on the road?

QuoteThere's nothing wrong with Breheny supporting professionalism? As in there's nothing wrong with him having an opinion, or there's nothing wrong with professionalism?

There's nothing wrong with him holding that opinion and there is nothing wrong with him expressing it in his opinion piece.

QuoteAnyway, when these writers are openly supportive of professionalism, then how can we view their support of the grants as anything other than a step on the road?

The two are not necessarily linked AZ, I support the grants but not professionalism. So I don't accept that the grants are step on that road. Maybe Breheny does view the grants as the first step on the road to professionalism but so what? He supports professionalism in the GAA and he supports the grants, so in his articles he expresses that view, where's the problem?

Well the 'so what' is that it gives the 'anti grant' people another plank on which to argue the point that the grants are moving us closer to pay for play, if it is not in itself pay for play.

That an advocate of professionalism is so 'pro grant' just serves to reinforce the opinion that this is a step, rather than a destination.

I think we've got off the point a bit here which is that we should all be sitting back and smiling smugly as we reflect on this most destructive organisation tearing the shit out of each other...

Thanks for the reality check Seany ! Now what did Donal call Dessie again ???  ;D

But he's not in the GPA anymore, so it's not eating itself yet. I'd say it'll be a while before the GPA implodes lads, they're quite powerful now, especially since the GAA seems to be very loathe to take players on in a 'strike'.

But again I ask, so what? If some people choose to think that because Breheny is pro-grant and in-favour of professionalism that we all are or that the grants are the first step in that process there isn't much anyone can do. Maybe I'm naive and I don't understand the workings of the media but if I had an opinion piece in a newspaper then the views in it would be my own. And I would use my articles to argue my views, however  if you accept some of the arguments on this thread my opinions wouldn't in fact be my own, instead they'd be influenced by my desire to keep some people onside. If Breheny was anti-grants, anti-GPA and anti-professionalism he'd be a hero around here and lauded for his bravery in speaking out for the GAA 'grassroots' in the face of GPA pressure. The fact that he and others aren't doesn't make their views any less valid or insincere.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 03:52:18 PM
But again I ask, so what? If some people choose to think that because Breheny is pro-grant and in-favour of professionalism that we all are or that the grants are the first step in that process there isn't much anyone can do. Maybe I'm naive and I don't understand the workings of the media but if I had an opinion piece in a newspaper then the views in it would be my own. And I would use my articles to argue my views, however  if you accept some of the arguments on this thread my opinions wouldn't in fact be my own, instead they'd be influenced by my desire to keep some people onside. If Breheny was anti-grants, anti-GPA and anti-professionalism he'd be a hero around here and lauded for his bravery in speaking out for the GAA 'grassroots' in the face of GPA pressure. The fact that he and others aren't doesn't make their views any less valid or insincere.

Zulu - How naive, did you not know that if you take the view that the GPA/Grants etc are good for the GAA etc you are a traitor for the cause and only want professionalism and are against the ethos of the GAA no matter what... ;)

I think you're misunderstanding me Zulu. I'm not saying that everybody who supports the grants is pro-professionalism. What I'm saying is that those people who would be against the grants will feel reinforced in their opposition that such a pro-professionalism writer is also pro-grants.

One of the most key factors in peoples opposition to the grants, or at least the GAA's role in handing out the money, is that it is a step on the way to professionalism. Martin Breheny coming out in favour of them, will reinforce that opinion.

Again, I am not saying that all people in favour of grants will think like that, I'm sure most don't and wouldn't like to think that.

Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on March 10, 2008, 03:56:34 PM

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 03:52:18 PM
But again I ask, so what? If some people choose to think that because Breheny is pro-grant and in-favour of professionalism that we all are or that the grants are the first step in that process there isn't much anyone can do. Maybe I'm naive and I don't understand the workings of the media but if I had an opinion piece in a newspaper then the views in it would be my own. And I would use my articles to argue my views, however  if you accept some of the arguments on this thread my opinions wouldn't in fact be my own, instead they'd be influenced by my desire to keep some people onside. If Breheny was anti-grants, anti-GPA and anti-professionalism he'd be a hero around here and lauded for his bravery in speaking out for the GAA 'grassroots' in the face of GPA pressure. The fact that he and others aren't doesn't make their views any less valid or insincere.

Zulu - How naive, did you not know that if you take the view that the GPA/Grants etc are good for the GAA etc you are a traitor for the cause and only want professionalism and are against the ethos of the GAA no matter what... ;)

With all due respect DubsforSam, that's not what I said at all. I know that a vast majority of people who support the grants would not support outright professionalism.  The difference between the pro (optimists) and anti (pessimists) camps are what these grants represent in terms of a progression towards it. The pessimists, of which I am one, would argue that, for a whole host of reasons which are on other threads, there is a real danger that the GAA's involvement in the grants opens a door that will be impossible to close again.

But just because I disagree with the GAA's involvement in the grants, and don't trust the GPA at all on this matter, doesn't mean I think those who disagree with me are any less GAA fans or people because of it.

Also, with regard to the GPA, I think everyone, or most people, would agree that the initial issues which spawned the GPA were worthy, and it was great for players welfare that it came about. The difference now, in my opinion,  is that the GPA wants to move on (winning battles before winning the war to borrow a phrase from Dessie) and has itself moved away from Player Welfare issues. Possibly because those issues have largely been addressed and instead of constant monitoring etc etc, they have made financial issues the new raison d'etre.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 03:52:18 PM
If Breheny was anti-grants, anti-GPA and anti-professionalism he'd be a hero around here and lauded for his bravery in speaking out for the GAA 'grassroots' in the face of GPA pressure. The fact that he and others aren't doesn't make their views any less valid or insincere.

Indeed. Breheny is entitled to his opinion and as a journalist he is fully entitled to express it in his journalism.

That said I have been surprised in recent months by

- the vehemence of his attacks on those, within the Ofonebelief.org group and elsewhere, with whom he disagrees on this particular subject, and

- his repeated use of threats, eg "sign up for grants or else!", towards the wider GAA membership on this issue.

The latter matter, in my opinion, has devalued his standing as one of the country's best and most esteemed GAA journalists.

QuoteI think you're misunderstanding me Zulu. I'm not saying that everybody who supports the grants is pro-professionalism. What I'm saying is that those people who would be against the grants will feel reinforced in their opposition that such a pro-professionalism writer is also pro-grants.

One of the most key factors in peoples opposition to the grants, or at least the GAA's role in handing out the money, is that it is a step on the way to professionalism. Martin Breheny coming out in favour of them, will reinforce that opinion.

Again, I am not saying that all people in favour of grants will think like that, I'm sure most don't and wouldn't like to think that.

I understand what you're saying alright AZ and you're largely correct in what you're saying. The only point I'm making is that some posters were suggesting that pro-grant/GPA journos were not expressing their own views but were in fact writing articles under duress. I don't accept that to be the case.

The other fascinating point is O'Neill's claim that Donal Og Cusack is the man pulling the strings in the GPA now. Without wanting to go over all the old ground again, I think this does vindicate those of us who suspected ulterior motives in the role of the Cork hurlers in striking over the issue of the football selectors.

If, as O'Neill suggests, Cusack was pulling the strings for the threatened national strike over grants, it would hardly be surprising if he was doing the same for a strike in Cork.

Some people said at the time that they were two entirely separate issues, but when you have the person at the helm, with similarly militant views on both issues and pushing a similarly militant action, I can't see how you can completely divorce the two.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 04:22:33 PM

QuoteI think you're misunderstanding me Zulu. I'm not saying that everybody who supports the grants is pro-professionalism. What I'm saying is that those people who would be against the grants will feel reinforced in their opposition that such a pro-professionalism writer is also pro-grants.

One of the most key factors in peoples opposition to the grants, or at least the GAA's role in handing out the money, is that it is a step on the way to professionalism. Martin Breheny coming out in favour of them, will reinforce that opinion.

Again, I am not saying that all people in favour of grants will think like that, I'm sure most don't and wouldn't like to think that.

I understand what you're saying alright AZ and you're largely correct in what you're saying. The only point I'm making is that some posters were suggesting that pro-grant/GPA journos were not expressing their own views but were in fact writing articles under duress. I don't accept that to be the case.

I wasn't suggesting that it wasn't their own views. I was suggesting that their perspective was clouded by the fact that they have a vested interest in the game becoming more professional at an intercounty level. Nothing to do with duress. I could of course be wrong but you cannot tell me that the national media orginisations (and the people working within) would not prefer the GAA going professional.

Where is the point of continuing this argument. We live in a changing world. The GAA is semi professional in any case - advertising products, holiday funds etc. All sports have gone through this phase, rugby, tennis athletics etc. Anyhow it will soon be the case that a footballer with any talent will be playing Aussie rules. Take a look at the anti crowd at their meeting in Toome or wherever, They wouldn't look out of place at an Ulster Says No or a Love Ulster rally. They are the Jim Allisters of the GAA. Move on for Christs sake. Some people are trying to hold back the tide with a pitchfork. Even if this scheme is knocked on the head something else will replace it, probably more sinister.

Too may people have invested too much of their lives upholding the amatuer ethos to do that. I take it you haven't been on the planet long enough to hold these values as dear as others.

If your doomsday scenario ever happens, then I and plenty like me will be gone from the GAA forever

Quote from: BANLAB on March 10, 2008, 06:02:48 PMTake a look at the anti crowd at their meeting in Toome or wherever, They wouldn't look out of place at an Ulster Says No or a Love Ulster rally.

Were you there? If so, did you speak your mind. Otherwise, how did you arrive at the above conclusions?

Do you include Joe Brolly, for example, in your analysis?

Quote from: theskull1 on March 10, 2008, 06:31:42 PM
Too may people have invested too much of their lives upholding the amatuer ethos to do that. I take it you haven't been on the planet long enough to hold these values as dear as others.

If your doomsday scenario ever happens, then I and plenty like me will be gone from the GAA forever

Can you define what you mean by "amateur status"?

So that you can pick holes in my argument? No thanks...I already know that the GAA is doing itself no favours in this regard and very much wish it would do something about these. I thought dubs that you would have had grown tired of the old two wrongs makes it right, form of argumentation?

Far from people seeing the absolute stupidity of that line of argument, it's actually spreading. O'Rourke is at it now.

Quote from: theskull1 on March 10, 2008, 06:31:42 PM

If your doomsday scenario ever happens, then I and plenty like me will be gone from the GAA forever

And where exactly will ye go?
Ye have one life and there's one GAA.

Rossfan - can the association sustain paying players ? How much will it cost ? Will it be detrimental to the association at any level ?

32 Football sqauds of 25 each plus 6 or 7 coaching and admin staff = about 1,000 people at about €60,000 per head per annum. say €60m
15 or so Hurling squads  say €25m
Full time pro on those figures  ??? - Not a chance.
I suspect it will go on with the present structures but Inter Co players will be better "looked after" and will probably get a percentage of gate monies divided among them at the end of the year, while a lot of them will be employed as full time coaches to schools and the like.
Whether ye boys like it or not the Inter Co lads are the income generators and "wont go away ye know" like they did in days of old when the grown ups on the Committees and the Boards told them to do so.

The issue of pay for GAA players will be one of the topics tonight on Questions and Answers. Peter Quinn is on the panel.

gate monies divided among them at the end of the year


You're having a laugh now !!  ;D ;D ;D

Where does Quinn sit with pay for play ? Or will he just be another Northern whinger who always says no.

Quote from: Rossfan on March 10, 2008, 09:00:00 PM
Whether ye boys like it or not the Inter Co lads are the income generators and "wont go away ye know" like they did in days of old when the grown ups on the Committees and the Boards told them to do so.

No, they are not The inter county TEAMS are the revenue generator. You might argue that people don't want to see Fat Bastard's XV, but someone is going to win the All-Ireland whatever the overall quality is

You might argue that people don't want to see Fat Bastard's XV, but someone is going to win the All-Ireland whatever the overall quality is

Do you think there would be a full house for that final ?  ;D

Quote from: orangeman on March 10, 2008, 09:41:57 PM
You might argue that people don't want to see Fat Bastard's XV, but someone is going to win the All-Ireland whatever the overall quality is

Do you think there would be a full house for that final ?  ;D

If Waterford were playing, I know I'd be there. Ah, but chance'd be a fine thing :-\

Good contribution from Peter Quinn now and as usual the man makes sense and calls a spade a spade. A giant compared to Kelly or Brennan.

It is clear that Bowman has not a clue of the issue and like Prime Time a couple of weeks back the debate is a waste of time. Any chance of a good balanced debate with a competent chair (no not Martin Breheny :P)

Quote from: believebelive on March 10, 2008, 10:45:40 PM
Just seeing Zulu's comment got me thinking there and I was wondering a few things?

What is the fabric of the association?

IMO this is the central issue. I am only against the grants for the simple reason that I think it will change (over a period of time) the motivations and attitude of inter county players and it is my firm belief that I think that this would lead to a knock on effect which would see the ideals of the Association diluted and effectively destroyed.

It'll not be just the motivations and attitudes of intercounty players that will bring about this change. The biggest change will be brought about from the fallout all the other volunteers looking at their own commitments to the GAA and deciding that they are not prepared to put in the same commitments to the GAA that they did because in one swipe they went from volunteers of a great amateur organization to nothing more than cheap labour.

Quote from: Zulu on March 10, 2008, 11:32:53 PM


While I still have to read the second document properly believebelieve I find it hard to see how it will change the motivations of players. There are a number of examples of GAA players who have chosen IC over LoI soccer even though they'd have been paid for the latter. Likewise few if any of the top players head off to the states during the summer even though they'd get big money if they did. While the money is small then I can't see any real problems and I can't see where big money will come from.

I agree with a lot of what you say Zulu and believe me I have the utmost respect for our inter county players and believe that they are treated shockingly by the Association with the amount they are asked to do, esp at a young age.
I also agree with your examples on Irish League soccer and America too but those examples sort of help me in my argument in that those decisions taken by players are taken within the present environment. Their attitude and commitment to an amateur game is to be commended but my worry is what will happen in ten years time.
Let us take the 28 year old county footballer who's career is cut short in 2018. He has been used to getting at least three to four thousand euro (inflation) per year for playing for his county. Will he then coach the under 12 club team for free? I don't know but I would have my doubts. Will his attitude to the GAA be the same as todays 28 year old or the 28 year old in 1998?


And yes Skull I also agree that the average member will be effected because of these grants and that less will volunteer and the association will suffer because of that. Again though - just my opinion

Young boy leaving the child minders today

"Daddy?"
"Yes son?"
"Guess how much Steven Gerard gets paid to play for Liverpool?"
"I don't know son?"
"40 million pounds...isn't than unreal Daddy?"
"Thats great son"
.
.
.
driving down the road

"Daddy?"
"Yes son?"
"Should I not get money to play for the U8's?"

:(

QuoteIt'll not be just the motivations and attitudes of intercounty players that will bring about this change. The biggest change will be brought about from the fallout all the other volunteers looking at their own commitments to the GAA and deciding that they are not prepared to put in the same commitments to the GAA that they did because in one swipe they went from volunteers of a great amateur organization to nothing more than cheap labour.  

Without rehashing old arguments why didn't volunteers walk away in large numbers when paying coaches became widespread? Surely if it's about principle then the fact that the money was under the table shouldn't have effected the attitude of volunteers.

QuoteTheir attitude and commitment to an amateur game is to be commended but my worry is what will happen in ten years time.
Let us take the 28 year old county footballer who's career is cut short in 2018. He has been used to getting at least three to four thousand euro (inflation) per year for playing for his county. Will he then coach the under 12 club team for free? I don't know but I would have my doubts. Will his attitude to the GAA be the same as todays 28 year old or the 28 year old in 1998?

This is a government grant BB so I'd say there is a greater chance that it will be canclled rather than increased. And I can't see your ex-player not coaching kids unless he gets money as in anyway likely. If I get money for doing one thing where everyone like me gets paid (playing IC) why would I expect getting money for doing something else when no-one else is getting paid for it(coaching kids).
                                                I do a lot of coaching and while I've yet to get paid for it (though I've been offered) I wouldn't rule out taking money for an adult team in the future, however I'll never take money for coaching kids because it is a very different commitment.

Ah the two wrongs argument again....Zulu this has been discussed in great detail in the past. Back to my point......you appear to believe that this won't happen? What is your own gut feeling telling you?"

QuoteAh the two wrongs argument again....Zulu this has been discussed in great detail in the past. Back to my point......you appear to believe that this won't happen? What is your own gut feeling telling you?"

It's not the two wrongs make a right argument, forget about the rights and wrongs of paying managers or players, I'm just asking why lads think volunteers will walk away from the GAA if players get this grant when they didn't when they knew some managers were getting paid? As to your question, if your asking me why I don't think volunteers will walk away it is my opinion that the GAA is ultimately local and as such it is what you get out of your involvement that matters. I'll never walk away from the GAA over pay for play type issues because the GAA to me is about the teams I'm involved in. I get great satisfaction from coaching teams and seeing them do well, why would I walk away from that because some players get paid?

Not that I believe for a second that a governement grant is anything approaching professionalism - but let's pretend for a sec that there's a blue moon with pigs flying around it and cows jumping over it, and the GAA decide to bring in inter county professionalism.

Why the heck would that encourage volunteers to leave their clubs? Spite?

What would happen then is a two-tiered association. Inter County 'contracted' players would have no tie to their clubs. The club season would run in parallel. There would be more games per year for inter county players, probably something along the lines of a Champions league style championship with home and away games.

Transfers would become more prevalent, and the reason would only be to better the person's chance of winning something, or to make more money. Counties would probably get salary capped.

You'd probably also end up with 'B' teams made up of club players, like the club representative Rugby internationals.

So in short, I don't know that volunteers would walk away, or if they did they would walk back, but they would be soley the preserve of the club, and the 'county' team would have less and less relevance for them. In fact if professionalism did come in, I am convinced that after a while you would see the less successful counties merging to put out a more 'competitive product'.

It's just not what the GAA is supposed to be about.

Pride in your parish, pride in your club and pride in wearing your county jersey.

Good post AZ

QuoteAnd where exactly will ye go?
Ye have one life and there's one GAA.

Its excatly because you have only one life that people mightn't waste their time grafting for somethnig they don't believe in any more. Its a big world out there with plenty to do other than being the only dope about the place who doesn't get a few bob for their time.

Excellent post AZ but the question is, if the grants are a start of a move towards professionalism or not? I think we all accept that a two code 32 county professional GAA is impossible, at best we could only maintain one code as a professional entity and at that, with at most, 16 teams in it. But because that is so clearly obvious I don't believe that anyone really wants it, mind you a professional GAA could be the best thing that ever happened to the club game, at least lads would get regular games!

Quote from: Rossfan on March 10, 2008, 09:00:00 PM

.. while a lot of them will be employed as full time coaches to schools and the like.

What happens when they retire from county football or are dropped from the panel

Seriously Zulu. Do you not think the zeitgiest of volunteerism everywhere will change as a result of this? Please think about it.  

Sure the whole backhanded payments to managers is impacting things as it is. Calls for payments to players has came about as a result of this and now we're are considering payment to players through official channels it will significantly speed up this change in mindset. We cann see that the domino effect is currently in effect and it will get to the grass roots eventually.

Well all we can do is speculate skull1 and obviously people will react differently but I'd be surprised if people walked away from the GAA (for good) in big numbers. Anyway this comes back to my original point, I can't see anyway that the GAA can go professional so I've no problem with IC players getting a couple of grand off the government. I'd say anything up to €10,000 I'd be fine with but I can't even see it go that high as no Government would pay out that amount in grants to GAA players.

Quinn said last night that the injection of managerial talent into weaker counties gave them an improved chance of winning - if you turn this argument around, would it be true to say that the injection of playing talent ( attracted by financial reward ) would also give weaker counties an improved chance of winning ? Would it be ok in that situation to allow pay for play ?

Quote from: Zulu on March 11, 2008, 01:40:16 PM
Well all we can do is speculate skull1 and obviously people will react differently but I'd be surprised if people walked away from the GAA (for good) in big numbers. Anyway this comes back to my original point, I can't see anyway that the GAA can go professional so I've no problem with IC players getting a couple of grand off the government. I'd say anything up to €10,000 I'd be fine with but I can't even see it go that high as no Government would pay out that amount in grants to GAA players.

Exactly, and what happens then? Or worse, when the Government decides that the couple of million set aside for this every year would be better spent in other areas? Some people think the GPA will be happy enough and walk away from the grants, content with however many years they have it. I have never seen that happen before in anything. If you are getting money for something, and then it stops, but you continue doing the exact same, you will look for someone to pick up the slack.

I'd be willing to bet that if and when that happens the GPA will demand that the GAA looks for 'alternatives'. From their point of view, why wouldn't they?

I can't see how these grants will lead to professionalism within the GAA. I believe this because there can never be professionalism. not even what would be considered a small portion of the membership desire this and in any gerrymandered form the association cannot sustain it. most importantly, the membership will never ever allow it.

Naive post of the day award.

Do explain why to give me a laugh.

QuoteI can't see how these grants will lead to professionalism within the GAA. I believe this because there can never be professionalism. not even what would be considered a small portion of the membership desire this and in any gerrymandered form the association cannot sustain it. most importantly, the membership will never ever allow it.

My sentiments exactly, rrhf you say it's naive so maybe you can articulte the path that will lead to professionalism.

QuoteInsert Quote
Quote from: Zulu on Today at 01:40:16 PM
Well all we can do is speculate skull1 and obviously people will react differently but I'd be surprised if people walked away from the GAA (for good) in big numbers. Anyway this comes back to my original point, I can't see anyway that the GAA can go professional so I've no problem with IC players getting a couple of grand off the government. I'd say anything up to €10,000 I'd be fine with but I can't even see it go that high as no Government would pay out that amount in grants to GAA players.



Exactly, and what happens then? Or worse, when the Government decides that the couple of million set aside for this every year would be better spent in other areas? Some people think the GPA will be happy enough and walk away from the grants, content with however many years they have it. I have never seen that happen before in anything. If you are getting money for something, and then it stops, but you continue doing the exact same, you will look for someone to pick up the slack.

I'd be willing to bet that if and when that happens the GPA will demand that the GAA looks for 'alternatives'. From their point of view, why wouldn't they?

But AZ you're talking about employment situations there, it's like saying a barman would quit his job if the only customer who gave him tips stopped coming into the bar. He used to get a nice bonus each week from this customer but now it's stopped does he walk away from his job over lets say €10 extra a week? Anyway the GPA have put in writing the condition that the GAA don't have to pick up the tab in any eventuality, so how could they possibly force them to do otherwise?

I have said my pieces and commented my comments on this subject and Im not getting involved again.  If you are willing to still talk rubbish about what these grants arent rather than what they are then Ill challenge your viewpoints as they sit.  My viewpoint hasnt changed from when this was first mooted, and more importantly nothing has changed to support your own theory, the  main difference is Im not still canvassing.  I believe stoically in the GAA way of doing things, and i believe dem,iocartically that the grants proposal will be resoundly defeated in the democratice process - that is unless the anti amateur grouping can attempt to override the democratic process once more.    Im a great believer dont try and fix something that aint broke.  Some people want change even when it aint progress

QuoteAnyway the GPA have put in writing the condition that the GAA don't have to pick up the tab in any eventuality, so how could they possibly force them to do otherwise?

Have you seen that written down? How is it phrased? I simply cannot see a 'new' arrangement not being entered into. Do you really, honestly think that the GPA will say 'Grand so, it was nice when we had it.'?

What I would expect is that the GPA will not expect the GAA to continue with the government grants. However, the dedication etc. still pertains, so some form of grant from the GAA would be appropriate, in their eyes.

Way to not answer the question.

how long does it take you and your mates to come up with the soundbites you use when endeouring to say nothing of substance?

what AZ says is completely right. this will become an employment situation should grants be awarded. playing gaelic games at intercounty level will become an economic activity.

In the absence of any relevent precedent, that is a huge reach

I thought the debate on TV last night was very interesting - it's a pity there wasn't more time in which to fully debate the situation - It would be interesting to see what the result of the vote which the clubs are taking part in at the moment - are ALL counties canvassing the opinion of clubs ? Have you been asked as a club member ??

Uladh, Zulu, can you honestly, hand on heart, say that you cannot see the GPA trying to put pressure on the GAA to 'arrange' an alternative to the Government Grant scheme when it ends?

Fair enough if you can say that. I would disagree with you, but I accept your view.

AZ - The assumtions on this issue are based on the perceptions of the percived "leaders" within the GPA and what they may be intending. i believe this is misguided as such a reversal of position would have to be mandated by the gpa membership. i absolutely believe that our county players would not be in favour of that having given their word.

Quote from: Uladh on March 11, 2008, 03:33:56 PM

In the absence of any relevent precedent, that is a huge reach

from a legal perspective it is very possible.

OK. I disagree with you, but I see what you are saying.

In my opinion, and obviously my opinion only, the GPA leadership are of the opinion that once the money starts coming in to players pockets from the grants, then it is yet another 'battle' in their 'war'.

I also think that if you canvassed 100 young GAA players on the matter of 'Would you like to be a professional GAA player?' you would get at least a 70% affirmative. And who would blame them? Most people would be delighted to make a living at something they love.

To extrapolate a little from my Government Grants to GAA Grants progression, I would anticipate the GPA leadership 'listening to their members views' and polling something along those lines within 5-10 years.

Quote from: orangeman on March 11, 2008, 03:41:34 PM
I thought the debate on TV last night was very interesting - it's a pity there wasn't more time in which to fully debate the situation - It would be interesting to see what the result of the vote which the clubs are taking part in at the moment - are ALL counties canvassing the opinion of clubs ? Have you been asked as a club member ??

I think an informed tv debate would be a great idea.

i haven't heard anything at club level yet? on a slightly tangental note, not a single person i've spoken to in my club is opposed to the grants when i ask (its not a cross sectional poll) and any mates from other clubs in armagh say thay've never even heard it mentioned as something people care about. armagh must be in the remedial class in terms of mobilising against the bogey man.

AZ- the handful of gpa members i know are not overly enamoured with their own leadership and are very suspiscious of where they might try to lead them, obviously due to reading a lot of scare stories. that in itself is a good safety net for me.

Quotearmagh must be in the remedial class in terms of mobilising against the bogey man.

It's comments like that that do you no favours Uladh. Comes across as very sneery altogether.

For what it's worth, if I trusted the GPA I wouldn't be against the grants as they currently stand either. In fact, if I could be guaranteed that the GAA wouldn't get involved, and the money would go to the players via the GPA itself, or the sports council, then I wouldn't be against them at all. My concern is all about the GAA getting involved, and therefore the perception, maintained by Breheny and co, is that the GAA is in favour of these grants as an entitlement of the players. If that's the case, how can the GAA be seen to allow the players suffer when the grants are discontinued? After all, the mechanisms for distribution will already be there, it'll just be a matter of siphoning off a few million from gate receipts to keep it going in another guise.

Quote from: Uladh on March 11, 2008, 03:56:14 PM

AZ- the handful of gpa members i know are not overly enamoured with their own leadership and are very suspiscious of where they might try to lead them, obviously due to reading a lot of scare stories. that in itself is a good safety net for me.

I know a few GPA members too, and to a man they are not enamoured with Dessie and co, so you may be right. I hope for the GAA's sake you are.

Taken from the document 'Agreement between the GAA and GPA on the distribution of Government funding for player welfare', sent to me by believebelive.

Point 2. "The agreement will apply only for so long as Government funding is made available for player welfare and will cease when and if Government funding ceases. In this event there will be no responsibility on the GAA to continue funding the programme and no such request will be made to it by the GPA."

AZ I find it hard to see how the GPA can wiggle out of their undertakings if the government op the grants in light of the above. And even if they do the GAA will hold the moral high ground so support for their position would be hard to come by I'd imagine. And that is another reason why I support the grants, this way the GPA get something (money for players) and the GAA get something (they don't have to pay for it and they have a guaarantee from the GPA that they never will). If we don't agree to this I believe that the GPA will become more militant and IC players more fed up with the attitude of the GAA, so the alternative battle might see the GAA fighting from a weaker footing, with more at stake.

See my pessimism is coming out again. I think that wording would have been much better with something like 'or an equivalent scheme' added on.

As for the GAA standing up to the GPA, highground or not, well I don't think they've a great record so far. In American terms they are 0 for Dessie.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2008, 03:56:25 PM

Quotearmagh must be in the remedial class in terms of mobilising against the bogey man.

It's comments like that that do you no favours Uladh. Comes across as very sneery altogether.

phrase it as you will. the message is the same, there is little or no interest in this as a "grassoots issue" where i come from, depite he national bluster. most lads aren't interested in anthing beyond their own concerns. the majority answer is something along the lines of "don't know, never really thought about it"

In fairness, that's a different issue. People's apathy is not a reason to allow something happen which (may) be bad. I'd just love to see a proper debate, with proper questions posed to the GPA and the GAA leadership. Then maybe some of the apathetic people who may not be bothered might hear something that they don't like, or those of us with fears might be reassured.

That's true AZ but that's because the GPA's demands have been 'reasonable' so far and in some cases down right necessary. But if they push the boat out too far I think the GAA can simply say 'Sorry lads but not a f**king hope.' At the end of the day their only threat is strike action and if they do that over professionalism they will only destroy themselves because no-one wants it. It's funny when you say that probably 70% of 18 year olds might want to get paid for playing GAA because I coach a lot of lads that age and when I spoke to them about this I was surprised by how many think professionalism would destroy the GAA. Not only that but when I was 16 myself we had a debate in school about this and the overwhelming majority, including the teacher, at the time a dual IC senior, were in favour of professionalism. That indicates to me that the debate is actually moving people away from professionalism in the GAA.

Is there any GAA history for such a thing? there were extensive "political" debates on recent high profile rule chnges but i don't remember any forums organised by the GAA ofr the masses?

Probably not Uladh, but I think this merits it. There is too much uncertainty and guesswork, both optimistic (the GPA are totally trustworthy) and pessimistic (The GPA will sell our babies into slavery).

QuoteNot only that but when I was 16 myself we had a debate in school about this and the overwhelming majority, including the teacher, at the time a dual IC senior, were in favour of professionalism. That indicates to me that the debate is actually moving people away from professionalism in the GAA.

I really hope you are right. I still think if a vote of the GPA was taken, you'd have a lot of lads in favour of it, and as I said, it'd be hard to blame them, per se. It's not their job to safeguard the future of the GAA.

I was led to believe that all county boards ( I'm not sure about Cork though !!  ;D ;D ) have asked the clubs to canvass opinions from club members and bring the result back to the county board who in turn would bring this to congress - almost like a mini referendum -

That's good orangeman, but what informs the debate? The newspaper articles by supporters and threat merchants (grants or else) and press conferences by Dessie, or the so meek it hurts statements by Nicky Brennan?

I still think a televised public debate, with all the facts outlined, and hard questions from both sides would be the best way.

I agree - a fully televised debate is the way forward.

Quote from: orangeman on March 11, 2008, 04:21:34 PM
I was led to believe that all county boards ( I'm not sure about Cork though !!  ;D ;D ) have asked the clubs to canvass opinions from club members and bring the result back to the county board who in turn would bring this to congress - almost like a mini referendum -

When is this debate going to occur and what will we be discussing. The final agreed document has not yet been released and will not be for least another week to ten days. What would clubs discuss? After all Pauric Duffy has said quite clearly that County Boards should not comment on the document until they have seen it. yet this begs the question, How can central council put forward a motion on an agreement 'as it will be presented to congress' when they have not seen it either.
Unless that is Central Council have seen the final document to which we now must ask why the f&*k have the rest of us not.

This has been fudged because the leadership do not want the clubs to debate this issue. If anyone can show me one line where either the President or Director General has said that Clubs should debate this I would be much obliged. And if anyone can tell me if they have got notification of a club meeting to discuss this issue I would also be obliged.

This motion from central council will get thru because I firmly believe that the delegates will wrongly think that backing the leadership of the GAA is better than putting them in a difficult situation. Heads and sand and all that.

If the GPA and the GAA leadership are so sure that this is the right thing to do and are adamant that it will not damage the amateur ethos then why not open the debate up. Hold a special congress in August and pay the grants if the majority of members so wish. After all they are not going to be paid until October anyway if they do come in. I would have no problem if I came down in the minority as long as everyone had a chance to have their say.

Martin Breheny talking out of the two sides of his mouth once again today....

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/lack-of-accord-on-rules-ruining-the-gaa-1314044.html

Quote
.... the Government grants issue.

That accord, agreed by Central Council, the GAA's highest decision-making body next to Congress, is the subject of a new dispute as a collection of self-appointed guardians of the amateur philosophy mount a challenge.

It's laughable but they got away with it, and managed to force the grants issue onto the Congress agenda next month.

Hopefully, that's as far as it will go because if Congress overturns a Central Council decision to support a Government-financed improvement in player welfare, the GAA might as well put a 'For Sale' sign outside Croke Park and close down the entire organisation.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/derry-lead-campaign--to-scupper-grants-for-players-1314051.html

Quote
DERRY will lead the attempt to force Central Council into an embarrassing U-turn on their support for the payment of Government grants to inter-county players.

The battle lines have been drawn with motions from both sides going forward to Congress next month as Central Council seeks to have its stance endorsed while the lobby group want the decision rescinded.

Derry club Faughanvale are demanding that the GAA have nothing to do with the grants and, in a double-lock movement, the Derry County Board is making a similar call while also stating that Rule 11 -- the Association's binding principle on amateurism -- would need to be amended before there could be a change of policy.

Tying Rule 11 in with the payment of grants is an attempt to widen the anti-grant agenda. In effect, Derry want Congress to distance itself from the Government/GPA/Central Council initiative, implying that it shouldn't even be discussed while Rule 11 exists in its present format.
...

Emotions are certain to run high in a debate which seemed unlikely when Central Council approved the scheme last year. Opposition has grown recently as the 'Of One Belief' group launched a campaign against the grants which has gained support among some county boards. Now, it will come down to Congress and a decision that could have far-reaching implications for the GAA.

So Martin, it's "laughable" that a County Board can now "get away with" tabling a motion for debate at Congress?

At the last county board meeting in Tyrone, club delegates voted against the grants issue. Only one delegate voted in favour. Not sure if any vote will take place at congress but if one does the tyrone delegate will be voting against any proposals to approve the payment of grants to county players.

As I've said before ....it's in the national medias best interests to support a more professional GAA.

The media is nothing more than a tool to control and influence the opinions of the docile masses. I prefer to think for myself on this one

Quote from: phpearse on March 12, 2008, 01:41:40 PM
At the last county board meeting in Tyrone, club delegates voted against the grants issue. Only one delegate voted in favour. Not sure if any vote will take place at congress but if one does the tyrone delegate will be voting against any proposals to approve the payment of grants to county players.

How can any part of the association take a decison on a document that isn't yet available ?

Quote from: Uladh on March 12, 2008, 01:44:42 PM
How can any part of the association take a decison on a document that isn't yet available ?

Ofonebelief turn this paradox on its head here:

http://www.ofonebelief.org/2008/01/30/dra-delight/



Going to Congress: Can You Get Your Head Around This?

We understand that Saturday's Central Council meeting, at the request of Management, voted to send a motion to Congress seeking approval for its grants scheme. (This was despite GAA press officer Feargal McGill being quoted in last Thursday's Irish Times as saying the grants issue would not be discussed at the meeting because its only order of business was the Special Congress the same day ... but then positions here do seem to shift on a daily basis!)

Now tell us if we're wrong on this but here's our understanding of the current position:

    * On Friday night at the DRA, Central Council confirms there is no agreement nor was there ever any agreement
    * On Saturday morning Central Council votes to send a motion to Congress about a grants agreement (that they've told us doesn't exist)
    * Central Council is therefore backing a motion on a scheme that doesn't exist and to which it's not committed
    * Even better, Monday's Evening Herald (28 January) has a GAA spokesperson telling us that on Saturday past, the motion that Central Council voted to submit to Congress has yet to be framed by Management

So there we have it. Central Council is committed to nothing except to a motion that Management has yet to draft on an agreement that's yet to be framed.

And in all of this, still not a word for us ordinary GAA people (who keep the whole show going) on "our" GAA website.

There is in life something known as The First Law of Holes. It states: "When you're in one ... stop digging!"

Sounds like very good advice here!

Thank God for the "one beliefers" etc as only for them we'd all be ruined.
I wonder will they be as successful as the Cork County Board were in their anti player heave. :o

Its ludicrous to compare OfOneBelief to the reactionary element within Cork County Board, or to label it as "anti player". OfOneBelief have almost a thousand members in all 32 counties. Among these are a number of present intercounty players, some of them very prominent players.

Quote from: Zulu on March 11, 2008, 03:59:33 PM
Taken from the document 'Agreement between the GAA and GPA on the distribution of Government funding for player welfare', sent to me by believebelive.

Point 2. "The agreement will apply only for so long as Government funding is made available for player welfare and will cease when and if Government funding ceases. In this event there will be no responsibility on the GAA to continue funding the programme and no such request will be made to it by the GPA."

AZ I find it hard to see how the GPA can wiggle out of their undertakings if the government op the grants in light of the above.

Are you serious ?

You really think someone like Dessie can be trusted ? That means absolutely nothing. He'll just end up sprouting some shite and acting the victim and talking about the GAA bank account.

The GAA will be unable to take the highground because dessie is simply a better bullshit producer and eejits in the media who shall remain nameless will get behind his whinging like they did this time.

There had been some constructive discussion on this thread earlier in the week for a change. i thought we had another angle coming fom someone different.

Imagine my disappointment

QuoteAre you serious ?

You really think someone like Dessie can be trusted ? That means absolutely nothing. He'll just end up sprouting some shite and acting the victim and talking about the GAA bank account.

The GAA will be unable to take the highground because dessie is simply a better bullshit producer and eejits in the media who shall remain nameless will get behind his whinging like they did this time.

I was going to elaborate on my post to clarify things for you but on the basis of your first post I'm not sure it would matter. Sorry but if you think that Dessie and the 'dreaded media' can force through the payment of players in the face of written assurances from the GPA not to then I don't know what to tell you.

Quote from: Zulu on March 13, 2008, 02:37:25 PM
Sorry but if you think that Dessie and the 'dreaded media' can force through the payment of players in the face of written assurances from the GPA not to then I don't know what to tell you.

We all know how long a "written assurance" lasts for - until the person giving it can turn around and claim that "circumstances have changed". Already Dessie tells us that circumstances have changed in the six years since he made his 2002 statements on the GPA's objective to introduce pay for play. Would you put your farm on the grants-related  "written assurance" lasting as long?

People first argued that the GPA would look for the GAA to pay the grants in the event of the government not doing so. They have put in writing that they won't even ask them to do so, they have also put in writing their commitment to the amateur status of the GAA, so I'm not sure what else they can do. But here's the real point as far as I can see, what does it matter if the GPA want the GAA to go professional, what does it matter if the GPA want some other form of 'grant' in the event of the government version finishing? If the GAA are going to start paying IC players out of their own funds then a majority of the GAA members will have to ratify such a move. The rule 42 debate showed that major decisions will be decided by the ordinary members and that was mickey mouse stuff in comparison to committing ourselves to paying IC players.

Quote from: Zulu on March 13, 2008, 04:32:37 PM
People first argued that the GPA would look for the GAA to pay the grants in the event of the government not doing so. They have put in writing that they won't even ask them to do so, they have also put in writing their commitment to the amateur status of the GAA, so I'm not sure what else they can do. But here's the real point as far as I can see, what does it matter if the GPA want the GAA to go professional, what does it matter if the GPA want some other form of 'grant' in the event of the government version finishing? If the GAA are going to start paying IC players out of their own funds then a majority of the GAA members will have to ratify such a move. The rule 42 debate showed that major decisions will be decided by the ordinary members and that was mickey mouse stuff in comparison to committing ourselves to paying IC players.

FFS Zulu - your a smart guy. This issue has created at least as much discussion as rule 42 yet the members are still not getting their say.
I'm not worried about this being the first step on the road to professionalism I am worried that this issue and this issue alone will have a severely negative impact on the association as a whole. But I might not be right and this is what pis$es me off about the whole thing. Let the members have their say and whatever they decide go with it. Democracy and all that. Congress delegates have shown on a consistent basis that they are not an accurate reflection of what ordinary members think.
What is to be feared from an association wide decision?

Quote from: believebelive on March 13, 2008, 04:43:04 PM
This issue has created at least as much discussion as rule 42 yet the members are still not getting their say.

Maybe in your world. i would say not even 10% the discussion of the rule 42 debate

Quote from: Uladh on March 13, 2008, 05:08:53 PM


Maybe in your world. i would say not even 10% the discussion of the rule 42 debate

I respect your opinion. You must remember though that the rule 42 debate was going on for five years. But tell me this Uladh. Would you be opposed to letting everyone have their say in a similar fashion to rule 42 so as people 'in my world' would finally shut up about it?

QuoteFFS Zulu - your a smart guy. This issue has created at least as much discussion as rule 42 yet the members are still not getting their say.
I'm not worried about this being the first step on the road to professionalism I am worried that this issue and this issue alone will have a severely negative impact on the association as a whole. But I might not be right and this is what pis$es me off about the whole thing. Let the members have their say and whatever they decide go with it. Democracy and all that. Congress delegates have shown on a consistent basis that they are not an accurate reflection of what ordinary members think.
What is to be feared from an association wide decision?

I'm with Uladh here BB, I don't think the grants issue is generating anything like the same interest as rule 42 did. Secondly I disagree that the grants will 'have a severely negative impact on the association' if fact I think if it was granted tomorrow it would be forgotten about by the end of the week. Obviously I accept that that is just my opinion and I could be way off the mark but I just can't see it. As for your question on whether I'd mind if it was put to the membership, of course I wouldn't but I fear that the membership would vote against this not on any rational basis but on the scaremongering that some anti-grant lobbists are engaging in.

Quote from: Zulu on March 13, 2008, 05:32:02 PM
As for your question on whether I'd mind if it was put to the membership, of course I wouldn't but I fear that the membership would vote against this not on any rational basis but on the scaremongering that some anti-grant lobbists are engaging in.

We could weight the votes, so those who vote rationally get twice as many votes!

Quote from: Zulu on March 13, 2008, 05:32:02 PM
As for your question on whether I'd mind if it was put to the membership, of course I wouldn't but I fear that the membership would vote against this not on any rational basis but on the scaremongering that some anti-grant lobbists are engaging in.

That's pretty bizarre logic given that the Grants deal was only approved by Central Council on 8 December last after the GPA has scared them into doing so by calling a nationwide player strike.

First of my own opinion is that the grants should be paid, I am very nervous about them and what they might bring further down the track (and I don't trust anything that the GPA has said or written down on, they've shown a remarkable ability to about turn in the past) however for now it's not the GAA monies and if the government want to hand it out than I am inclined to say why not. I'm not thrilled at County Boards having to distribute them either but that appears to be the way that it is going to have to be.

Now...

Regardless of what anyone says, this was always going to have to be put before congress - it's a seismic shift in policy. There is no way in hell that 'the grassroots' (I'm gettin sick of that term) would allow this to happen without delegates having their say. There was an attempt to have this rushed through by central council, and the fact that somebody created an umbrella group to challenge it, shouldn't change the fact that it was always going to be challenged.

I am sick to the back teeth of media, and others trying to dismiss the actions of this group, yes, it was an ill advised organisation to set up and they would have been far better off going through the conventional route of club to county board to congress but the GAA Authourities forced their hand by trying to sneak this thing through, they had to go the DRA to ensure that it was not rubber stamped prior to congress because they gave themselves that power when no one was looking. Something Brehony and O'Rourke conveniently forget to mention when having a snipe. We all kniow it was reported at the time, but the point remains that most members are so far removed from the machinations of the higher echelons of the association that there isn't that much heed passed when these type of things are 'reported'. The whinging from Brehony (and now O'Rourke) about this is as pathetic as it is pointless, it was always going to congress. Interesting all the same that these two work for the one boss.

It will go to a vote - it will be rejected I feel, and we are in for a whole world of pain once that happens, I think there will be quite a lot of blood spilt in GAA Officialdom - but I feel it might be necessary pain for the association as a whole, an association that might look quite different to one we see now. Provincial councils might be the first to go

Pay for play is coming at some stage, that horse bolted years ago, the only question is in what format.

Interesting that the GPA website links stories from the Independent on its web site. No chance of any stories questioning the GPA appearing there as that paper position is well and truly on the pro-payment side.

Quote from: phpearse on March 14, 2008, 08:38:47 AM
Interesting that the GPA website links stories from the Independent on its web site. No chance of any stories questioning the GPA appearing there as that paper position is well and truly on the pro-payment side.

The Irish Independent have been carrying ads for the past month or so, aimed at advertisers who want to place ads in the "official GPA magazine" that will be distributed free with the Irish Independent on March 31st.

It's illegal for the GPA to purchase advertising space in national papers now?

Is there no limit to this paranoia?

Quote from: Uladh on March 14, 2008, 10:15:43 AM

It's illegal for the GPA to purchase advertising space in national papers now?

Is there no limit to this paranoia?

Who said it was illegal?

Just because someone points out a conflict of interest, that doesn't mean they're paranoid.

From the Irish News today

"Ballinderry Shamrocks in favour of players grants".

This is interesting, in the context of Derry's sponsorship of the anti-grants motions at Congress.

Some of the more interesting quotes from the Ballinderry Chairman Camillus Quinn

"...the committee members of Ballinderry Shamrocks GAC respect the views of the anti-grants group, but that ultimately they had placed their trust in GAA officialdom."

"We have fiath in the leadership of the GAA at the highest levels and are confident that the players' award scheme will not infringe rule 11 or damage the unique amateur status of our association in any way"

Refreshing to read.  

To read this board you'd think it was an all-consuming issue.  I've never once heard it mentioned in our club at any committee meeting.

QuoteI've never once heard it mentioned in our club at any committee meeting.

In fairness Benny, maybe that says more about your club, than the board. Maybe your club don't see it as a major issue at all, but I think it certainly merits debate. It's a moot point at the moment if it is clear government money, but the fact that the GAA is involved in distributing it is key for any future 'battles' (copyright Dessie Farrell) that may be down the line.

I'm not against the notion of GAA players being recognised by outsiders, and the government in particular, as elite athletes. I'm against any GAA money being used in these grants. I accept that it is not the case at the moment, but I'm one of those 'thin end of the wedge' guys.

We haven't used that phrase in a while, I thought it needed an airing :D

Quote from: bennydorano on March 14, 2008, 11:49:09 AM
Some of the more interesting quotes from the Ballinderry Chairman Camillus Quinn

"...the committee members of Ballinderry Shamrocks GAC respect the views of the anti-grants group, but that ultimately they had placed their trust in GAA officialdom."

"We have fiath in the leadership of the GAA at the highest levels and are confident that the players' award scheme will not infringe rule 11 or damage the unique amateur status of our association in any way"

They obviously have more faith in the Croke Park hierarchy than in their own county board.

cornafean, I wouldn't criticise them for it. If they have thought it through, and are happy enough to be guided by the leadership in this case, then fair play to them. We can disagree with them, but they've made their choice in good faith, I assume.

P.S. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with them if I could be 100% sure that the Ts & Cs would never change, but I think that's unlikely.

Quote from: cornafean on March 14, 2008, 11:54:37 AM

Quote from: bennydorano on March 14, 2008, 11:49:09 AM
Some of the more interesting quotes from the Ballinderry Chairman Camillus Quinn

"...the committee members of Ballinderry Shamrocks GAC respect the views of the anti-grants group, but that ultimately they had placed their trust in GAA officialdom."

"We have fiath in the leadership of the GAA at the highest levels and are confident that the players' award scheme will not infringe rule 11 or damage the unique amateur status of our association in any way"

They obviously have more faith in the Croke Park hierarchy than in their own county board.

AS would I.

Quote from: cornafean on March 14, 2008, 11:21:00 AM
From the Irish News today

"Ballinderry Shamrocks in favour of players grants".

This is interesting, in the context of Derry's sponsorship of the anti-grants motions at Congress.

It is esp interesting given Pauric Duffy's clear instructions to county boards not to pass judgment before the deal is released on St Patrick's day. It is also interesting give that according to press reports this was a club committee meeting and not a full club meeting.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 14, 2008, 11:59:12 AM
cornafean, I wouldn't criticise them for it. If they have thought it through, and are happy enough to be guided by the leadership in this case, then fair play to them. We can disagree with them, but they've made their choice in good faith, I assume.

Hi AZ

I'm not actually criticising them, just wondering what motivated them to take this stance, a few days after the details of the Derry Congress motions became public. I haven't heard of any other clubs making similar pronouncements, pro or anti, in recent weeks.

Although I don't agree with them, I think its refreshing that as a leading club in the Six Counties they have taken this stance. It puts to bed the notion which has been cultivated by the pro-grants camp that the anti-grants movement is driven by a bunch of northerners who can't and won't think for themselves.

From the DRA website tonight:

http://sportsdra.ie/drastatement.htm



Statements:-

Re: Mark Conway and Others

At a hearing tonight the Claimants sought to amend their Claim as a consequence of changed circumstances since the original hearing on 25th January 2008. The Tribunal ruled that they did not have juristiction, as a matter of law, to allow the amendment sought.

The Claimants did not proceed with their Claim and the parties each agreed to bear their own costs and to share equally the expenses of the DRA.

14th March 2008

Quote from: cornafean on March 14, 2008, 12:54:15 PM
[
I think its refreshing that as a leading club in the Six Counties they have taken this stance.

They're not letting the dreary steeples block their view of the real world  ;)

the Claimants sought to amend their Claim as a consequence of changed circumstances since the original hearing

What was the nature of the proposed change ?