Taken from today's Sunday Independent
By Colm O'Rourke
Sunday March 09 2008
IT WAS tempting to think of the GAA in terms of the Laurel and Hardy Show last week. It was a definite case of getting themselves into another fine mess.
The first sketch was the Sigerson Cup.
To the great unwashed this competition has little relevance and if it was measured by attendance or media coverage then that would be certainly correct. In fact, when those of us who were involved in the burn-out committee brought forward a raft of proposals which had, among them, the amalgamation of U21 and minor into an U19 competition, the opponents of change argued that it was third level where the problem lay and we had left that sector largely untouched. Some would go so far as to abolish the Sigerson long before the U21.
I am not going to try to fight that war again, but playing at third level helps GAA players to cope with the pressures of college, it gives them a social outlet and an opportunity to make a lot of new friends in an environment where there is little sense of belonging. It is also a high standard of football. In short, it is a players' championship where winning is very difficult and the sense of achievement is huge.
Last week, Carlow IT -- who host the finals weekend this year -- got a right kick where it hurts most with the objection by Cork IT to the Garda College, who beat them during the week. This came after an objection by -- coincidentally -- Carlow IT as to the eligibility of one of the Garda players, which was overturned on appeal. All of this, in effect, threw the Sigerson weekend out the window. Friday should have been semi-final day, followed by the final yesterday, but all that bit the dust as the rule book was chewed up by those who are charged with promoting games at this level. More than a little irony there.
All the time Carlow, the hosts, who have worked hard to make the whole weekend a success and give a big boost to football in the college are left high and dry. Teams who were to play have had to cancel arrangements and no matter when it is played now it is absolutely certain to clash with some important fixture at U21 or senior level.
When the smell of manure settles on this latest mess the finger will point very firmly in the direction of the Central Appeals Committee (CAC), who overturned a decision by the third level authority, Comhairle Ardoideachais, the CAO.
I know most people get completely turned off by these GAA committees, but some of the decisions made by the CAC over the last year have completely undermined some other GAA bodies which are supposed to be fighting out of the same corner.
In this case it would be reasonable to assume that if the body in charge of higher education football threw the Gardai out, then they should know best. As happened on so many other occasions recently, the CAC upstaged them, allowed the Gardai back in, and when they beat Cork IT, Cork decided to try their hand in the boardroom.
At this stage it does not really matter that much who is right or wrong. To the general GAA public, there is frustration and anger that, from within, a mentality of object and appeal has taken over which is largely related to daft decisions by some of the GAA's own bodies. There is no exact science in relation to the rule book, but where the CAC effectively undermines other bodies there is something seriously wrong. There are rules, interpretations of rules and the right thing to do. That has become lost with some people who seem to think that expertise in the rule book is of great importance -- it's not.
Our next sketch stars the fixtures making body of the GAA, the CCCC. It was hard not to feel sorry for Antrim, whose simple request to have a slightly earlier start to today's hurling league match in Waterford was refused. No ulterior motive in the request, just a desire to get players home in time for work on Monday morning. But rules is rules -- except of course when they're not.
The mess that was made of the Cork situation shows a complete lack of will to do the right thing. The decision was very simple: either Cork were in or they were out -- and if they were in then they played all their games. If that took a bit of negotiation then they should have got on their bikes and sorted it. The full stupidity and total unfairness of the existing decision to award points will only become apparent in another few weeks.
The choice of fixtures to start the League showed absolutely no imagination either and the response from the watching public has reflected that.
But, my favourite sketch last week involved our old friends, the DRA.
It seems they have given a hearing to the group (who call themselves Of One Belief) leading the campaign against the government grants to players.
What this is doing is legitimising a small number who have no official standing in the GAA. If this group wanted to object they could have gone through the usual channels, in other words their clubs. These same clubs, many of whom are in Ulster, are paying very large sums of money to managers, so it takes some nerve and blatant hypocrisy to bring this case to the DRA. They must have all the glass broken in their glass houses.
Worse still, instead of telling them to take a running jump, the DRA listened to this rubbish. This coming at a time when Congress are preparing to have the normal debate on these grants as they have on all other major issues. Who is running the show anymore? If this is the carry-on then any group with something up their nose can form a committee and attempt to undermine decisions which are democratically reached. From this it appears that anything which is not liked can be challenged by anyone outside the normal process.
It is long past time to go back to a situation where there is one body to make decisions with one appeal after that. And if that does not suit, then there is the High Court, but unelected groups should not be given a hearing in any forum. The laudable attempt by the GAA to keep things out of court has spectacularly backfired. There were very few of these cases anyway, but a monster in the shape of various committees has been created instead. It is like a pig eating its own.
And after years of trying to get the Government to recognise the special place of Gaelic games we have our own trying their best to scuttle it with some help from official bodies. (I say this while having some reservations about the different amounts which will be handed out to various counties. It might be better if everyone got the same, but I have no time for the crusaders who think they are whiter than white and want to stop the grants -- the total of which might pay for a modest holiday.)
And don't start me on the principles involved in amateurism. That has become a moveable feast for everyone except the entertainers. It helps for all of us to be a bit mad in this organisation, but it is time to take back control of the asylum.
We GAA folk often take smug satisfaction out of the calamitous behaviour of the FAI. But at this stage our own beloved GAA must be looking over its shoulder at the soccer boys, as we leave them in our dust in the race for worst run sports organisation in Ireland. We seem to lurch from one farcical situation to another without learning even the most basic of lessons. And I'm just not referring to Nicky Brennan here, though he is overseeing much of it, I'm talking about the majority of people involved in the running of the GAA. Colm O'Rourke highlights some of the national issues but there are numerous local ones each year all around the country. Am I over-reacting here do others feel the same?
You could drive a bus through the gaps in his logic.
Sorry, I should point out that the last paragraph consists of my thoughts. But I didn't post it because I necessarily agree with everything he is saying rather I was highlighting the fact that we aren't even three months into the year and already we have the Sigerson weekend postponed, the Cork 'strike' and the grants issue still unresolved. Add in a seemingly pointless rule book, a ref's strike in Offaly and the many farcical situations at local level and you have to question the whole mechanism for running the GAA. It seems to me that the GAA is a great sporting organization in spite of it's leadership rather than because of it.
I dunno, a lot of what he said seems logical enough, however:
Quote from: Zulu on March 09, 2008, 01:15:13 PM
The first sketch was the Sigerson Cup.
To the great unwashed this competition has little relevance
Does he not understand that 'the great unwashed'
are the students (and that the Sigerson Cup is obviously more relevant to them than anyone)?!
O'Rourke has always been soft on the amateurism question. I can only laugh at the irony of his proclamation that "unelected groups should not be given a hearing in any forum". I didn't hear him fulminating when the unelected GPA was given official standing by the GAA without reference to dog, devil or delegate to any forum or congress.
And I'm fairly certain he's talking nonsense in suggesting that only clubs have a right of access to the DRA. It's my understanding that any member can seek review of any decision from the DRA. Maybe he's saying that shouldn't be the case, and maybe he's right, but it's a moot point. IF Of One Belief couldn't get access to the DRA, there are many clubs who hold the same view who could have brought to the DRA the mishandling and undemocratic foostering with the grants issue by the Brennan administration.
Quote from: Hardy on March 09, 2008, 02:28:47 PM
O'Rourke has always been soft on the amateurism question. I can only laugh at the irony of his proclamation that "unelected groups should not be given a hearing in any forum". I didn't hear him fulminating when the unelected GPA was given official standing by the GAA without reference to dog, devil or delegate to any forum or congress.
Not that i's necessarily be a fan of the GPA, but is their membership of such a large number of inter-county players not a sufficient mandate for them to be effectively an 'elected' body?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 09, 2008, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 09, 2008, 02:28:47 PM
O'Rourke has always been soft on the amateurism question. I can only laugh at the irony of his proclamation that "unelected groups should not be given a hearing in any forum". I didn't hear him fulminating when the unelected GPA was given official standing by the GAA without reference to dog, devil or delegate to any forum or congress.
Not that i's necessarily be a fan of the GPA, but is their membership of such a large number of inter-county players not a sufficient mandate for them to be effectively an 'elected' body?
Apparently Farrell was given his title by a 3-man panel which he was part of, not exactly democratically elected! (I read that on this board though so not entirely sure that's completely accurate)
Quote from: Rav67 on March 09, 2008, 03:27:24 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 09, 2008, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 09, 2008, 02:28:47 PM
O'Rourke has always been soft on the amateurism question. I can only laugh at the irony of his proclamation that "unelected groups should not be given a hearing in any forum". I didn't hear him fulminating when the unelected GPA was given official standing by the GAA without reference to dog, devil or delegate to any forum or congress.
Not that i's necessarily be a fan of the GPA, but is their membership of such a large number of inter-county players not a sufficient mandate for them to be effectively an 'elected' body?
Apparently Farrell was given his title by a 3-man panel which he was part of, not exactly democratically elected! (I read that on this board though so not entirely sure that's completely accurate)
Maybe so, but does the fact that so many county players stand behind 'the management' or whatever you want to call them, not give them a mandate?
We know nothing whatever about the internal procedures of the GPA (if they have any), what their constitution is (if they have any), how they select officials, what are their voting procedures, etc. They seem effectively to be a secret society. They had no standing or validity at all as an organisation within the GAA and indeed seemed at pains to place themselves outside of all official GAA prodecures and in opposition to the GAA until, for some inexplicable reason, the GAA (Central Council, presumably), without any reference to the membership, decided to recognise them as the official representatives of GAA players. This notwithstanding the fact that they specifically exclude from their membership over 90% of all GAA players.
Ah Jasus lads, while I'm not trying to tell fellas what part of posts they can develop there are a number of issues here, surely we can avoid turning this into another GPA debate. We have done that quite a few times already and I'm sure we will very soon again, once the grants issue returns to the front pages.
Quote from: Rav67 on March 09, 2008, 03:27:24 PM
Apparently Farrell was given his title by a 3-man panel which he was part of, not exactly democratically elected! (I read that on this board though so not entirely sure that's completely accurate)
That's almost correct I believe. The 3-man (could have been 3, 4 or 5 - can't remember exactly) committee, which included Farrell, was elected by the membership and given a mandate to choose a Chief Executive. As soon as Farrell became a contender he removed himself from the committee. It was long since ratified by the membership so I don't think it'd be fair to say he's not the choice of the membership.
There is plenty of information on their website (www.gaelicplayers.com), though not the easiest to navigate.
To talk of a "secret society" is unadulterated nonsense, but again just highlights how some people lose all sense of reason, fairness, balance and brainpower when it comes to Dessie and the GPA.
Hardy as usual has hit the Nail square on the head. He is 100% correct in his analysis. Though i am sure he would agree that the growing appeals culture within the organisation does need to be addressed
Definitely, Pangurban. I don't see why we can't introduce a deterrent similar to the on-the-spot fines system in civil law. Take your punishment and get a certain penalty. Appeal it and if you win, fair play, but if you lose, the penalty is at least doubled.
But what would I know, being a purveyor of unadulterated nonsense who has lost all sense of reason, fairness, balance and brainpower?
I wonder if Hound can rescue me from my ignorance and tell me where I can find the constitution of the GPA, its membership rules, its voting procedures and the audited results of recent relevant ballots. And if these are not available, why not, given the GPA's now official status as the representative organisation for players? And if these don't exist, how can we take the GPA seriously as an organisation fit to represent the interests of all players? And if they do, but are not available to the GAA membership and all those players they have been officially appointed to represent, wouldn't that make it a secret society?
Quote from: Zulu on March 09, 2008, 05:48:00 PM
Ah Jasus lads,.... surely we can avoid turning this into another GPA debate. We have done that quite a few times already and I'm sure we will very soon again, once the grants issue returns to the front pages.
Ah Jasus Zulu dont you know the "purity police" on this board are ever alert to anything that might smack of being other than total and outright condemnation of the GPA. ;)
I wonder what the GPA ever did to these lads to make them so upset over and over again.
It gets tiresome to say the least.
Yeah Rossfan, there are some very worrying trends in the GAA at the moment and many of them have nothing to do with the GPA but it seems lads ain't interested in discussing them. Easier bash the GPA I suppose, who will we blame for our faults if we ever get rid of the GPA?
Then it will be the players.
Get rid of themm and we'll have a great organisation. ;D
You could be on to something there. :D
Quote from: Zulu on March 09, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
Yeah Rossfan, there are some very worrying trends in the GAA at the moment and many of them have nothing to do with the GPA but it seems lads ain't interested in discussing them. Easier bash the GPA I suppose, who will we blame for our faults if we ever get rid of the GPA?
I agree we've other problems but I don't think there is any bigger than a bunch of spoilt prima donnas throwing their toys out of the pram at every opportunity.
Quote from: Zulu on March 09, 2008, 08:54:41 PM
Yeah Rossfan, there are some very worrying trends in the GAA at the moment and many of them have nothing to do with the GPA but it seems lads ain't interested in discussing them. Easier bash the GPA I suppose, who will we blame for our faults if we ever get rid of the GPA?
The reason no one wants to discuss your original proposition - "Definition of incompetent - GAA" - is that it is hyperbole at best and downright daft at worst. The majority of people running the GAA are incompetent? Simply listing every problem facing the GAA doesn't make an organisation collectively incompetent.
Rossfan, your contribution amounts to nothing more than catcalling from the sideline. Have you nothing to add to the discussion? Maybe you can help me to understand the constitution of the GPA - I'm stuck on that one.
QuoteYeah Rossfan, there are some very worrying trends in the GAA at the moment and many of them have nothing to do with the GPA but it seems lads ain't interested in discussing them. Easier bash the GPA I suppose, who will we blame for our faults if we ever get rid of the GPA?
Zulu, you usually do better than that. That's a ridiculous statement. Have you somehow failed to see all the other threads in this section alone, where people are discussing everything GAA-related you can imagine.
QuoteThe reason no one wants to discuss your original proposition - "Definition of incompetent - GAA" - is that it is hyperbole at best and downright daft at worst. The majority of people running the GAA are incompetent? Simply listing every problem facing the GAA doesn't make an organisation collectively incompetent.
No it doesn't and I'd accept I was being intentionally provocative in the title of my post but I was hoping to illicit a response, even if you're being quite arrogant speaking on behalf of all the board. However sometimes it appears that lads won't engage in a discussion about issues unless you're somewhat 'controversial' in the way you phrase things. In saying that I do really believe that there are a lot of muppets in positions of power and I do believe that this is negatively impacting on the future of the GAA.
QuoteZulu, you usually do better than that. That's a ridiculous statement. Have you somehow failed to see all the other threads in this section alone, where people are discussing everything GAA-related you can imagine.
In truth Hardy I was also trying to provoke lads with that post. I'm just frustrated with the way the GAA is run and I know that there are many lads who post or drop in here who are involved in the club game like me and I was hoping to develop a discussion about the direction that the GAA is going in. Instead it became a pointless thread about the GPA. I'm involved at club level (as a coach and player), at university level (as a coach and administrator) and at county level (as a supporter) and I'm extremely annoyed at the continuing incompetence of GAA administrators yet it appears that 'grassroots' GAA people are more interested in having cheap shots at the GPA than in discussing issues that we can influence ourselves.
Now far be it from me to lecture guys on what they should debate on or how they should debate it but I find it disappointing that there is little discussion on real issues that effect us all in the GAA when posted. Whereas if I started a topic with the title 'Player X is a w**ker' we'd probably be into our 6th or 7th page by now. Just a thought lads.
Zulu,
The GPA is, and will continue to be a contentious subject. The fact that O'Rourke put in a blatant sideswipe at 'ordinary' members in his last 'sketch' meant that it was always likely to provoke a response from a group of said people. You can't be surprised at that.
Now, if you want us to ignore the last couple of paragraphs, and debate the other issues, procedural and otherwise, that have become endemic in the GAA, fair enough, but it's hard(l)y surprising that some lads will jump on his last point.
As for the rest, there has been a few topics on this board, from last year and before, on the need to revamp the procedures in the GAA, and to make the rules, clear, concise and 'appeal' proof. Hardy has alluded to some of the concerns raised.
As I've said a couple of times on those threads, I would be in favour of taking the money made from one or two FAI or IRFU games at croker, and investing it into a committee charged with re-writing the entire GAA rulebook, from A to Z, and to formulate the germane committees, appeals boards, suspensions etc etc. I would constitute it with a couple of legal minds, preferably with GAA experience, such as Joe Brolly, a couple of GAA administrators like Frank Murphy, the master of rules. Liam Mulvihil with his knowledge of rules, and a couple of recently ex-players or managers who would have some relevant experience.
Give them a year if they need it, and let them off. The cost will be worth it because frankly, as you say, the inconsistancies, appeals, counter appeals and general craziness of our rules are very frustrating.
One of the things I would like to be part of any new rulebook is a committee which meets every Tuesday after inter county games, and looks at all sendings off, reported incidents, etc etc. The point of this is to expedite punishments, and any appeals, and mitigate delays because of the current long process.
and then there was Colm O Rourke Media man who gets paid for every thought he has about the GAA now. Maybe he's finding it difficult to reconcile the two
Quote
As I've said a couple of times on those threads, I would be in favour of taking the money made from one or two FAI or IRFU games at croker, and investing it into a committee charged with re-writing the entire GAA rulebook, from A to Z, and to formulate the germane committees, appeals boards, suspensions etc etc. I would constitute it with a couple of legal minds, preferably with GAA experience, such as Joe Brolly, a couple of GAA administrators like Frank Murphy, the master of rules. Liam Mulvihil with his knowledge of rules, and a couple of recently ex-players or managers who would have some relevant experience.
Agree, they could also address the worrying divide we have growing between club and county or player burnout but who cares about that!
Well pints, to be fair, that would be beyond the remit of a rules, procedure and penalties committee. That should be a policy decision by Central Council/Congress.
QuoteWell pints, to be fair, that would be beyond the remit of a rules, procedure and penalties committee.
Yeah I meant as well as dealing with the rules etc they (the GAA) could look at the other issues.
Brennan unconcerned about loophole
05 December 2008
Nickey Brennan has insisted that the GAA's disciplinary structures are sound, despite the exposure of a major loophole in their rulebook.
Ballinderry selector and former Tyrone star Paul Devlin had a 72-week suspension lifted after it was revealed that he wasn't a member of the club. He was banned following the Derry county final, but it later emerged that the Derry county board hadn't the authority to suspend him as he is affiliated to Moortown in his native Tyrone.
He was free to take his place in the dugout for last Sunday's drawn Ulster club final against Crossmaglen, but chose to sit in the stands after being told the Ulster Council is looking into the case and that his ban could yet be re-imposed.
"It's an unusual situation and it's clearly one that has existed in the past without ever being an issue," said Brennan, who is currently in San Francisco with the All-Stars tour.
"It's relatively common for managers from outside a county to manage a club team, but clearly it's something that someone has delved deep into the rulebook about.
"I wouldn't like to say too much about the case because I am aware that there are other angles about to emerge, but it's something that we have to look at to see is there a real problem or is it just a perceived problem. It's far from 'meltdown' though."
Quote from: Aghdavoyle on December 05, 2008, 12:02:09 PM
Brennan unconcerned about loophole
05 December 2008
Nickey Brennan has insisted that the GAA's disciplinary structures are sound, despite the exposure of a major loophole in their rulebook.
Ballinderry selector and former Tyrone star Paul Devlin had a 72-week suspension lifted after it was revealed that he wasn't a member of the club. He was banned following the Derry county final, but it later emerged that the Derry county board hadn't the authority to suspend him as he is affiliated to Moortown in his native Tyrone.
He was free to take his place in the dugout for last Sunday's drawn Ulster club final against Crossmaglen, but chose to sit in the stands after being told the Ulster Council is looking into the case and that his ban could yet be re-imposed.
"It's an unusual situation and it's clearly one that has existed in the past without ever being an issue," said Brennan, who is currently in San Francisco with the All-Stars tour.
"It's relatively common for managers from outside a county to manage a club team, but clearly it's something that someone has delved deep into the rulebook about.
"I wouldn't like to say too much about the case because I am aware that there are other angles about to emerge, but it's something that we have to look at to see is there a real problem or is it just a perceived problem. It's far from 'meltdown' though."
Wouldn't have thought that was true at all. Fairly common these days I think.
ive yet to meet anyone intelligent in the gaa im sorry but at admin level a dinosaur is always prefereed, but sure the gaa is great to laugh at especially when you can go look at realy organisation and how they conduct ther business
Quote from: thehulk!! on December 08, 2008, 02:47:25 PM
the gaa is great to laugh at especially when you can go look at realy organisation and how they conduct ther business
Tell me more about this 'realy organisation' - I'm fascinated by it.
I know your're a troll and I really shouldn't reply, but you are aware of irony of someone with the spelling skills of a five year old decrying an entire organisation for not being intelligent..
It's ironic that in a thread entitled "Definition of incompetent - GAA" quite a few posters attributed the last paragraph in the first post to Colm O´Rourke and took issue with the statement
"Farcical" - "I'm talking about the majority of people involved in the running of the GAA".
The last paragraph in the first post was written by Zulu, though it would appear that many did not read where he made that (sort of) clear.
Yet another GAA farce.
Gives more substance to the article that Colm wrote ;)