The Bertie shambles has descended into dark farce. Is there not a single senior FF TD with the Ba**s to tell him to stop.
If I had a nasty side, I would wish that he stayed until the end of his term & therefore destroy Fianna Fail on his way down. ;D
At this stage he should just resign, in any other country he would be long gone by now, but what does poor Bertie want to do he wants to stop the tribunal from delving any further into his financial dealings.
Or PD/Green/Ind.
I've said this before but I am truly scared about the attitude taken by many Irish people.
Its a vague thread, stop what?
Do you mean they should ask him to resign?
If Bertie doesnt hand over to Cowen quicky, there wont be much left to hand over.
Quote from: the Deel Rover on February 22, 2008, 05:12:01 PM
At this stage he should just resign, in any other country he would be long gone by now, but what does poor Bertie want to do he wants to stop the tribunal from delving any further into his financial dealings.
He wants a job in Europe, he may lack any credibility or believability but if he scraps through without anything being proved 100% he will snake into a high powered & high paid job.
Have to laugh at Martin Manseragh, he really is a clown. What shocks me is that the only major Fianna Fail politician I would actually ever have thought I could have give my vote if I where in their constituency Mary Rourke. She has really disappointed me. I think she was mad to tie her political career to defending Bertie, she could have kept stump & been a kingmaker for her nephew Conor Lenihan. Fair play to her on giving Hanafin a hard time, the cold fish,
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:14:10 PM
Its a vague thread, stop what?
Do you mean they should ask him to resign?
If Bertie doesnt hand over to Cowen quicky, there wont be much left to hand over.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
There should be no more excuses!!
No handing over!
No protecting the Party!
No protecting Bertie and his reputation!
No right time ro do it!
Get that man out of Irish politics Now!! He is a disgrace to this Country and those protecting him are as bad. He must leave now.
No more discussion on the subject.
If someone elected does not take over now then I am in favour of the President sending the army to take over. Enough is enough.
Cowen has shielded him, surely he should meet Madame Guillotine also.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:25:01 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:14:10 PM
Its a vague thread, stop what?
Do you mean they should ask him to resign?
If Bertie doesnt hand over to Cowen quicky, there wont be much left to hand over.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
There should be no more excuses!!
No handing over!
No protecting the Party!
No protecting Bertie and his reputation!
No right time ro do it!
Get that man out of Irish politics Now!! He is a disgrace to this Country and those protecting him are as bad. He must leave now.
No more discussion on the subject.
If someone elected does not take over now then I am in favour of the President sending the army to take over. Enough is enough.
No more discussion on the subject ::)
Jaysus I thought censorship was a bad thing!
What do you mean by no handing over? Surely if he resigns the leadership will be passed over to Cowen?
Son of Sam, lets be honest, you wouldnt accept anyone to replace him unless he was from FG! ;)
The big job in Europe will be his if he can get the Lisbon Treaty through. It was all settled at the negoiations in Lisbon. There are 27 states in Europe with 27 leaders all retireing at some stage but there is only one that has to convince it's own people to support the Treaty.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:30:36 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:25:01 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:14:10 PM
Its a vague thread, stop what?
Do you mean they should ask him to resign?
If Bertie doesnt hand over to Cowen quicky, there wont be much left to hand over.
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
There should be no more excuses!!
No handing over!
No protecting the Party!
No protecting Bertie and his reputation!
No right time ro do it!
Get that man out of Irish politics Now!! He is a disgrace to this Country and those protecting him are as bad. He must leave now.
No more discussion on the subject.
If someone elected does not take over now then I am in favour of the President sending the army to take over. Enough is enough.
No more discussion on the subject ::)
Jaysus I thought censorship was a bad thing!
What do you mean by no handing over? Surely if he resigns the leadership will be passed over to Cowen?
Do FF not need to elect a new leader?
We have had the discussion. It's time to decide.
Of course they need to elect a new leader. But do you honestly think anyone other that Cowen stands a chance?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:37:34 PM
Of course they need to elect a new leader. But do you honestly think anyone other that Cowen stands a chance?
Depends how badly BA falls and how Cowens reaction to it. Going by current form Ned O'Keefe is the front runner. Do you honestly think FF would elect another CJH or BA....on second thoughts I don't need an answer to that.
They could be from Labour. Or if Jack Lynch where to rise from the dead, not in my lifetime, but my dad who is an ardent FG'r tells me he was a great Taoiseach, & of course I have heard that from people of so many different political colours. To be honest Fianna Fail is so corrupt to the core, they would need to be disbanded & a new clean party without its hierarchy of corruption thrown away & I might think about it for 30 seconds. Its not just a political thing its the whole Charlie Haughey, Bertie, Bev, Liam Lawlor, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. & they see nothing wrong with their actions, this is little short of a dictatorship.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:41:28 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:37:34 PM
Of course they need to elect a new leader. But do you honestly think anyone other that Cowen stands a chance?
Depends how badly BA falls and how Cowens reaction to it. Going by current form Ned O'Keefe is the front runner. Do you honestly think FF would elect another CJH or BA....on second thoughts I don't need an answer to that.
What has Cowen done to be called "another CJH or BA" ?
I sense allegations of dodgy money going his way from that.
Can you clarify?
I doubt Cowan is directly involved, he is however an appeaser.
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
I dont think any neutral could honestly say Cowen is on "thin ice". He is probably the most popular politican in the country, despite of him being in FF while all this is going on.
I'd be interested to see if Bertie resigned and another general election was called.
I'd say with Cowen in charge FF would get back into government.
I wouldnt be voting for them, nor would I vote for FG or Labour.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
I dont think any neutral could honestly say Cowen is on "thin ice". He is probably the most popular politican in the country, despite of him being in FF while all this is going on.
I'd be interested to see if Bertie resigned and another general election was called.
I'd say with Cowen in charge FF would get back into government.
I wouldnt be voting for them, nor would I vote for FG or Labour.
Quick question HH would you vote for a party or Independent you know will turn around and put the FFMafia back in power?
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
How does a function in a tent in Galway win you the votes of a huge portion of the nation?
Thats silly talk.
Theres a huge amount of people who would switch votes from election to election, based on how the feel currently.
Like me, I would not tie myself to a single party. I have voted for FF in the past, this does not make me a Fianna Failer.
I think the main problem is the only real option is FG. And most people see their leader as a bit of a p***k.
Simplistic but true.
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:59:30 PM
Quick question HH would you vote for a party or Independent you know will turn around and put the FFMafia back in power?
I'd vote for a party or independant on its individual merits.
Why? Are you suggesting I should vote for FG?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
I dont think any neutral could honestly say Cowen is on "thin ice". He is probably the most popular politican in the country, despite of him being in FF while all this is going on.
He is nowhere near the most popular politican. He may be they most popular in FF he might get support from Greens PDs and Ind but he is certainly not the most popular in Ireland. I think Gerry Adams, Enda Kenny and even BA (no matter how I hate to say it) are more popular.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
I'd be interested to see if Bertie resigned and another general election was called..
That would not cause an election It would take the Greens to grow a set and pull out of Government.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
I'd say with Cowen in charge FF would get back into government...
FF could probably get back into Goverment with Hitler in charge.
I weep for our Country. :'(
Thats not just slagging, I honestly feel a pain in my heart & soul to know our once great Republic is being corroded by these shower of thieves & the electorate don't give a fck, as long as they line their pockets on the greasy pole, well the economy is fcked now.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 06:09:13 PM
He is nowhere near the most popular politican. He may be they most popular in FF he might get support from Greens PDs and Ind but he is certainly not the most popular in Ireland. I think Gerry Adams, Enda Kenny and even BA (no matter how I hate to say it) are more popular.
There was a poll done last year in which he came out on top. I cant produce links or details so wont push that fact.
But I think Enda Kennys popularity is quite low, and I believe this is why FG are not in Power.
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 05:56:43 PM
That would not cause an election It would take the Greens to grow a set and pull out of Government.
I know him resigning wouldnt cause it alone, but the knock on effects of it may lead to an election.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 06:09:13 PM
FF could probably get back into Goverment with Hitler in charge.
::)
Whatever about what Bertie has done, thats a huge slur of the voting people of Ireland.
[/quote]
The FF voting people of Ireland have lost my faith.
If the proper action is taken to change the ways of FF, then my faith might be restored but until that time I can't trust them to make decisions regarding the good of the Irish people.
I lawfully accept their decision but I will work hard to lawfully change their minds for the next election.
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
Well i dont hear the blue shirts getting too vocal about the issue...maybe there is something in their closet that they dont want exposed...although they have destroyed all their records a few years ago... where was Enda this morning for the debate with Martin M. this morning on Morning Ireland. The blueshirts have as many dodgy dealings through the years, alledgely... its a pity they have never been in power long enough since the foundation of the state to influence anyone.... :D Rock on Bertie...
Enda Kenny's spare votes helped nearly eradicated the FF parasite from Mayo, pity the rest of the country wouldn't see the light :D
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on February 22, 2008, 06:23:06 PM
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
Well i dont hear the blue shirts getting too vocal about the issue...maybe there is something in their closet that they dont want exposed...although they have destroyed all their records a few years ago... where was Enda this morning for the debate with Martin M. this morning on Morning Ireland. The blueshirts have as many dodgy dealings through the years, alledgely... its a pity they have never been in power long enough since the foundation of the state to influence anyone.... :D Rock on Bertie...
What the fck are you on about FG are mentioning the wrongdoings of Bertie & his bandits every day.
Typical FFMaifa response they expect everyone else to be as corrupt as themselves.
Yeah its quite ironic that the only person in Mayo who has any sway with the people in power is Bev. Even when FG win...they still lose out...sums them up really....i notice a lot of money been granted for infrastructure etc. in the county.... oh yeah with 3 FG elected the county has no sway at the top table...will three FGs be elcted next time round...i doubt it!
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on February 22, 2008, 06:23:06 PM
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
Well i dont hear the blue shirts getting too vocal about the issue...maybe there is something in their closet that they dont want exposed...although they have destroyed all their records a few years ago... where was Enda this morning for the debate with Martin M. this morning on Morning Ireland. The blueshirts have as many dodgy dealings through the years, alledgely... its a pity they have never been in power long enough since the foundation of the state to influence anyone.... :D Rock on Bertie...
Is this the justification FF have.... I, like Son of Sam, weep.
Son of Sam, care to answer the question I asked of you in my response to your question about voting for a party or Independant that may bring FF back to power?
(http://www.rabell.dk/sopranos.jpg)
Fianna Fail
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/43/BertieAhernBerlin2007.jpg/200px-BertieAhernBerlin2007.jpg)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6e/Charles_J._Haughey.jpg)
The Sopranos
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 06:33:21 PM
Son of Sam, care to answer the question I asked of you in my response to your question about voting for a party or Independant that may bring FF back to power?
Third time of asking Son of Sam. Its a very simple question.
I'm no fan of Bertie, or FF at that, but by avoiding the questions put to you and instead posting pictures like that makes you look quite childish.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 06:30:15 PM
Is this the justification FF have.... I, like Son of Sam, weep.
I weep too Zaptista, if this is the justification FF have, and Son of Sams efforts are the justification the main opposition party have, we truly are fucked! ;)
::)Answer the question Sam. This question is just going to hold up the thread and we all know how good FF are at holding up proceedings.
It's not as if you are responsible for the way the people vote or how those elected do the deal for Government after you have elected them. The Greens are a perfect example. Answer the question and lets get back to discussing the other many points raised.
Fair enough HH but I am willing to debate with you if you or anyone else who wants to. I might not win a debate but I will have a debate.
Regarding the point i made about no senior FG people shouting from the roof tops about what is going on in the tribunal... the 6 o clock news was live from the castle....why oh why wasnt someone from FG there this evening...Berties in a corner and nobody from the main opposition party is any where to be seen or interviewed... is it any wonder that FF can do what they like...
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on February 22, 2008, 06:23:06 PM
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:52:14 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 05:49:42 PM
I have accused him of nothing. I make the point that the sort of blatant head in the sand attitude towards corruption in FF by FFers is dangerous. Cowen has been leading the way in defending the indefenceable and could end up taking a very hard tumble if he gets this wrong. He is already on thin ice. Cast your mind back to a little known guy called Mickael McDowell and how his head in the sand, defence of BA, stay in Government position cost him his seat and the leadership of his party. I think they used to be the PDs
You forget Fianna Faill get elected by Fianna Failers therefore corruption does not seem a criteria for the political scrapheap. Put on a good function at the Galway Races, sure thats all that matters.
Well i dont hear the blue shirts getting too vocal about the issue...maybe there is something in their closet that they dont want exposed...although they have destroyed all their records a few years ago... where was Enda this morning for the debate with Martin M. this morning on Morning Ireland. The blueshirts have as many dodgy dealings through the years, alledgely... its a pity they have never been in power long enough since the foundation of the state to influence anyone.... :D Rock on Bertie...
The Blue shirts have not had as many alledged dodge dealings.
Are you just pulling mud of your back and slinging it?
It's interesting the extent to which FF is in thrall to Bertie. Contrary to popular opinion, Bertie Ahern would easily survive in other countries where people like Felipe Gonzalez, Jacques Chirac and Silvio Berlusconi survived being linked with death squads, massive misappropriation of municipal funds and take-yer-pick respectively, to name but the most egregious examples that spring to mind. No one walks away unless they have lost the support of their part. But why Bertie has not lost the support of FFer's is a mystery to me. It's beyond embarrassing, the way he lurches from one c**k-and-bull explanation to the next. It seemed obvious to me post-election that Cowan had a deal with Bertie re the succession, but why he feels bound to the details of that deal, only he knows.
SOS or SAM how was your holiday? why dont you post in your old name?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 22, 2008, 06:02:20 PM
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on February 22, 2008, 05:59:30 PM
Quick question HH would you vote for a party or Independent you know will turn around and put the FFMafia back in power?
I'd vote for a party or independent on its individual merits.
Why? Are you suggesting I should vote for FG?
Hey sorry, I went for my tea, then posted the pics and then had to go out to my uncles house (an FFr) I took pleasure of informing him about Larkin & the house story ;D , he hadn't heard any news today. He has nearly turned blue @ last, like half the FFrs in Mayo.
As a member of FG, Yes I do suggest you vote FG, but you can do what you like with your vote, I just weep that people do not question these so called independents on their intentions, I asked a campaigner of Bev would she vote to put Bertie back in power, the man talked all sort of bull & did not answer my question, so in my opinion if they won't guarantee me they won't back the FFMafia, they won't even get my 8'th or 9'th preference.
Christ so evereyone who voted FF are a mafia now???
Quote from: deiseach on February 22, 2008, 07:47:14 PM
It's interesting the extent to which FF is in thrall to Bertie. Contrary to popular opinion, Bertie Ahern would easily survive in other countries where people like Felipe Gonzalez, Jacques Chirac and Silvio Berlusconi survived being linked with death squads, massive misappropriation of municipal funds and take-yer-pick respectively, to name but the most egregious examples that spring to mind. No one walks away unless they have lost the support of their part. But why Bertie has not lost the support of FFer's is a mystery to me. It's beyond embarrassing, the way he lurches from one c**k-and-bull explanation to the next. It seemed obvious to me post-election that Cowan had a deal with Bertie re the succession, but why he feels bound to the details of that deal, only he knows.
Why would the party give a fcuk when the public don't? They've been rubberstamping the behaviour of dirtbags like Ahern for the past decade. The Irish electorate have little use for integrity or ethics.
Quote from: J70 on February 22, 2008, 10:08:05 PM
Why would the party give a fcuk when the public don't? They've been rubberstamping the behaviour of dirtbags like Ahern for the past decade. The Irish electorate have little use for integrity or ethics.
I wouldn't be privy to the minutes of any FF cumann meetings, but I find it hard to believe that they are all characterised by moustache-twirling men in black capes cackling at the gullibility of the electorate in the face of Bertie's machinations. I'd have thought that they'd be exasperated at the whole affair and want rid of the embarrassment (although, now that I think about it, the fact that no one is breaking ranks suggests the former scenario is more likely). Winning elections did not save Tony Blair from his own party.
Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?
Quote from: J70 on February 22, 2008, 10:58:16 PM
Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?
I think Blair would have survived. Mandelson, no. Mandelson would struggle to get elected to a town council in Ireland. You don't have rotten boroughs here where the party executive can fast track the latest young Turk and be sure he'll be elected without ever being exposed to the rubber chicken circuit. Unless he was the son of a party elder, which is another thread . . .
Quote from: deiseach on February 22, 2008, 11:24:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on February 22, 2008, 10:58:16 PM
Do you think the likes of Blair and Mandelson would NOT have survived in Fianna Fail?
I think Blair would have survived. Mandelson, no. Mandelson would struggle to get elected to a town council in Ireland. You don't have rotten boroughs here where the party executive can fast track the latest young Turk and be sure he'll be elected without ever being exposed to the rubber chicken circuit. Unless he was the son of a party elder, which is another thread . . .
I meant in regards to the scandals that forced his resignations.
Quote from: J70 on February 22, 2008, 11:28:11 PM
I meant in regards to the scandals that forced his resignations.
I think he would not have survived because he would not have the support of the party, although I also think he would never have gotten to the top of his party in the first place - see above.
He wouldn't have had the support of the party because of the nature of the scandals or because of some other reason? What he went down for was pretty mild in comparison to the shenanigans in Fianna Fail.
He wasn't liked by the rank and file for alll manner of reasons. Aloof, cold, arrogant, all of the above. Compare and contrast his treatment with that of Tessa Jowell, who claimed to be ignorant of her husband receiving £344,000 from Silvio Berlusconi. Perhaps Bertie Ahern would brazen out a similar revelation, but the fact that she surivived shows British politics is not inherenty more ethical than the Irish model. She survived, not because (in my opinion) anyone believed her denials - £344,000! - but because the footsoldiers of the party like her.
Can Irish people not set their own standards? It makes no difference who he is compared to. By my standards he is not fit for office.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 22, 2008, 06:55:56 PM
::)Answer the question Sam. This question is just going to hold up the thread and we all know how good FF are at holding up proceedings.
You see its this kind of talk that makes me despair. I asked the question and you say "we all know how good FF are at holding up proceedings".
Despite me already saying I am not a fan of FF or Bertie. I havent voted for FF in the past 2 elections (not even third or 4th choice. Yet unless I come on here and proclaim my love of FG / Labour, I am labelled this way.
Its like the George Bush "if you arent with us, you are against us" bullshit propoganda.
At this stage, despite my reservations about FG, I think its time for a change in government. But comments like that and Son of Sams efforts do nothing to convince people to change their minds about how they vote. If anything that sort of talk will turn undecided voters away from you.
Similarly to Enda Kennys personality. They need a change of leadership ASAP, Kenny will never bring them into government.
Apologies HH. I didn't want to make out your FF. I did see your earlier post and know you are not I just used it as a chance to have a swipe at them. BTW I am no fan of EK however, I don't believe he is corrupt. In fact I much prefer the policy of FF but I just don't trust them to do what the say. I don't trust their leader and his cohorts and this is why I would sooner vote FG. I don't like FG as a Unionist party but I think they tell a lot less lies and are actually sincere about their bad policy. I beg FF to sort out this inherent selfish, corrupt infestation they have in their Party.
Well, I cant argue with anything there Zaptista, well said.
Like I said Cowen is on very thin ice. He is now fully behind a crook as leader of the country. Cowen himself is not fit for office. The oppertunity for him to do the right thing is gone. When Ahern leaves office in disgrace Cowen will have to go with him. This is the begining of the end for FF. Ahern could have been giving up to save the party but Cowen has miised that window and now the two most influential figures in FF are bound together in a downward spiral that will end in a with a bang.
Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 07:18:27 AM
Can Irish people not set their own standards? It makes no difference who he is compared to. By my standards he is not fit for office.
I've missed the last few weeks for family reasons but this post brings us back to my question, who will shout stop?
Comparisons in various posts with other corrupt regimes debases our republican ethos and betrays the founding principles of the state.
Blaming FG and others for incompetence or reticence is a diversion.
Cheap political eye-for-eye is a cop out.
There is a cancer in the leading party in this state, it has been there since Haughey and it is as rampant and as depressing as ever. There are certain common factors (North Dublin, builders, planning, bags of money, deceased persons to blame, people too ill to give testimony, no paper records, unorthodox accounting, press manipulation, etc) and there are secrets - yet untold - but stored in places like Mayo.
Historically FF will always command 30-35% of the popular vote at a minimum because of the civil war politics that are taught from the cradle so its reelection with whatever colour of running mate happens to be fluttering in the breeze at any given time is practically a sure bet and is no comment on the national view of Bertie's morass at all. Therefore the imperative is to find someone with a scintilla of moral courage in that party to give the lead and say enough is enough.
Goodness knows there are those who were foolish enough in the immediate aftermath of the Haughey scandal who actually believed Bertie when he promised a new dawn for Fianna Fail. But this is what is needed. I will vote according to policy, good government, moral leadership and probity, and that is all I ask of any serious politician from any party who will tell it like it is - but that is especially needed from FF.
To Brian Cowen, Noel Dempsey, Seamus Brennan and the like, I say - you know in your heart that at the end of the day all of this sh**t is going to come out in an appallingly dirty wash and your record in defending this nonesense with clever & obscure answers, and smart-alec diversions will come back to haunt you, maybe not in party political terms, but in the damage being permanently afflicted on the Irish political system which you are allowing happen.
You are spawning the tornado - will you survive the damburst? It's not too late - sort this out. Our birthright demands it.
Cute hoorism,cunning strokes,and downright corruption have always been admired and tolerated in southern irish society. A corrupt people usually elect a corrupt government. Their is not a hair of difference between FF and FG, the others are not worth mentioning. FF survive and prosper because at the end of the day, people recognise they are more competent and in tune with the nation than the Blueshirts. Simple really
Excellent post Leo.
There is an idea in Irish politics that says "ach sure they are all at it", however this is really not true but it is convienient if you believe it. Like those who use the argument "keep sport and politics seperate". Both these terms are nonsence dogma but are often used to defend an argument which is already lost.
Irish people need to make a decision-
Is it acceptable for our politicians to take cash bribes in order to carry out political favours?
When we have a situation that those bribes may lead to your children not being able to go to school or have a safe place to play as the local politican took money from a developer to permit the building of extra houses instead of much needed of schools and play grounds.
or
When your Mother or Father are stuck in traffic in an ambulance on the way to hospital because you local politican took money to bulid a road on a land owners property even though that road would cause more traffic problem instead of having it located in a cheaper and more suitable location.
There are many examples.
Is it acceptable for our politicians to take cash bribes in order to carry out political favours?
Quote from: Pangurban on February 26, 2008, 10:37:47 PM
Cute hoorism,cunning strokes,and downright corruption have always been admired and tolerated in southern irish society. A corrupt people usually elect a corrupt government. Their is not a hair of difference between FF and FG, the others are not worth mentioning. FF survive and prosper because at the end of the day, people recognise they are more competent and in tune with the nation than the Blueshirts. Simple really
Cut the bullshit!! I am no fan of FG but to claim they are the same as FF is absolute bullshit. FF corruption is a sickening stain on the Irish people. For those of you proud to be Irish because of our history just look at the scum our children have to be proud of. Bertie Ahern the criminal and his protectors in FF.
Zapatista you are either a very young Man, or you have a poor memory. As for Bertie and his gang staining or besmirching the Irish People, just look around you, the people are doing a pretty good job of that themselves, in fact Bertie would have to go some to catch up with their debauchery.
Quote from: Pangurban on February 26, 2008, 10:37:47 PM
Cute hoorism,cunning strokes,and downright corruption have always been admired and tolerated in southern irish society. A corrupt people usually elect a corrupt government. Their is not a hair of difference between FF and FG, the others are not worth mentioning. FF survive and prosper because at the end of the day, people recognise they are more competent and in tune with the nation than the Blueshirts. Simple really
Much has been tolerated. There was a time when young girls who got pregnant out of wedlock were shipped off to religious run institutions and banished from society, their babies sold off to America. Was it something like 40,000 Irish children FF and the Catholic Church sold in the 60s, so we could have a society where no one was born outside Holy Catholic wedlock? Orphans sent off to Industrial Schools, beaten black and blue by religious psychos and then buried in unconsecrated ground. Sexual abuse by sick, twisted clerics covered up for years, as these same politicians turned a blind eye and in fact did everything to curry favor with the same sick perverts. People beaten up for not towing the party line in Fianna Fail. Jim Gibbons was beaten up in broad daylight outside Leinster House for voting against Haughey. Gardai transferred for refusing to quash a summons for those who called on party favors - usually after being stopped for driving mad on a country road, blind drunk, wiith their idea of road safety being the Vote Fianna Fail and Padre Pio sticker stuck on the windshield. Corrupt builders allowed to destroy heritage sites that even the Brits left alone. But there comes a time when the people eventually say enough. The Church got its comeuppance. FFs and the corrupt businesspeople who make a mockery out of this country will hopefully get theres one day too. Thier legacy is the above and a Celtic tiger that landed in the their lap and they still managed to f**k up.
Great post Turlough
Quote from: Pangurban on February 27, 2008, 12:17:04 AM
Zapatista you are either a very young Man, or you have a poor memory. As for Bertie and his gang staining or besmirching the Irish People, just look around you, the people are doing a pretty good job of that themselves, in fact Bertie would have to go some to catch up with their debauchery.
There is absolutely no point to this this post. It does not attempt to defend or challenge anything that has been said previously. It makes a claim about me but does not say why it makes that claim. It then goes onto spread over 5 million people what has been said about one person. I don't know how or why you expect anyone to accept this as a responce Pangurban
Mr Browne is in fine voice this morning:
Demise of politics inseparable from our society's ills
The Bertie Ahern situation reminds us that parties no longer stand for anything - their only desire is to get into office and to retain office, writes Vincent Browne
POLITICS IS debilitated here. No one and no party stands for anything. No principle, no policy, no politics even, just opportunism and careerism. The point of politics now is to get office or retain office - that's all.
Fine Gael thinks it stands for standards in public life. But before the election last year it hadn't a word to say about standards in public life, or at least about the glaring issue to do with standards in public life, because it seemed to the party that the best thing to do was stay quiet about it.
So too with Labour, which at one time, however briefly, did seem to stand for something, but now the inducements of office have obscured whatever principle the party once stood for.
The Greens have sold their soul for nothing. The new transport policy, as divined from the consultation document published on Monday by Noel Dempsey, commits the Government, including the Greens, to precisely those policies which the Greens professed to oppose a year ago - notably the favouring of road building over public transport in the capital programme for transport (total budget €34 billion between now and 2012 - €18 billion for roads, €12 billion for public transport).
Sinn Féin has been selling its soul for quite some time. Having waged a war - via the IRA - that killed about 1,500 people to achieve the unity of Ireland and the withdrawal of the British, Sinn Féin now accepts precisely the constitutional arrangement which the IRA killed to oppose.
Before the last election Sinn Féin abandoned any pretence to radicalism. It is now no different from the rest, except the rest do not have a recent record of murder. (Although both Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael have murder in their past incarnations, as has a bit of the Labour Party, and in that instance the past is not distant, but we are not allowed revive that now).
Which leaves Fianna Fáil. At least the other parties care about themselves but in Fianna Fáil they don't seem to care even about themselves, or be a bit bothered by evidence that has compromised the party's own interests.
There is copious evidence that Charlie Haughey helped himself to funds that were the property of Fianna Fáil, and also that Ray Burke did and Pádraig Flynn did. Now Bertie Ahern seems to have done the same. And not a bother on the party.
The party has known for years about the depredations of Charlie, Ray and Pádraig, and many of us were wondering how it could fail to exercise its fiduciary duty to recover those funds. Now we know. The current leader was helping himself too, so how could he be pressing the others to give back money that was properly the property of Fianna Fáil?
The dogs in the street and, I assume, the cats and rats (certainly the latter) knew there were rows in Fianna Fáil during and immediately after the 1987 and 1989 election campaigns. Party fundraisers would canvass contributions from various wealthy corporations and individuals, who would then give over the money to party luminaries who would pocket the money.
And it was known that the rows involved Ray Burke, Bertie and another who, because he is now dead, I will not name. Party fundraisers were annoyed. One of these is now a backbench Fianna Fáil TD, a fine fellow and certainly of ministerial calibre, but wild horses would not prise from his memory what he knows about all these shenanigans.
There are other matters aside from the Bertie money issue and the absolute determination of Fianna Fáil, aided and abetted by the Greens and what is left of the PDs, to refuse to acknowledge that there are questions to answer about all of this. These issues are quite apart from the tribunal report when it appears in 2020, or whenever.
I wrote that there is no politics any more. By which I mean there is no debate about politics, just about managerialism, how best to manage the country's affairs and who could do it best. There is no disagreement in politics. Everyone is ad idem, as they say in St Luke's.
The structure of society is okay, or at least there is nothing to be done about the structure of society. The fact that thousands die prematurely every year because of that structure is not acknowledged or even discussed. They fact that a tiny proportion of the population have a huge proportion of the wealth of society and, conversely, that a large proportion of the population have a tiny proportion of the wealth, is like the weather: nothing can be done about it.
Everyone has bought (forgive the phrase, as they say in St Luke's) into the "common sense" of our era - that huge inequalities are part of the human condition. Life was not meant to be fair, that's the way the cookie crumbles (there is an industry in the manufacture of cliches to mask this acquiescence in injustice).
Of course this "common sense" is hugely political, but there is no debate about it, no consciousness of how corrupted is this idea of "common sense", how our culture is debased by the realities of shattered lives, misery and early death.
There is no debate about politics, just about managerialism, how best to manage the country's affairs
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 11:49:04 AMIn fact I much prefer the policy of FF but I just don't trust them to do what the say.
Seriously?? What policies do they have?
"There is copious evidence that Charlie Haughey helped himself to funds that were the property of Fianna Fáil, and also that Ray Burke did and Pádraig Flynn did. Now Bertie Ahern seems to have done the same. And not a bother on the party.
The party has known for years about the depredations of Charlie, Ray and Pádraig, and many of us were wondering how it could fail to exercise its fiduciary duty to recover those funds. Now we know. The current leader was helping himself too, so how could he be pressing the others to give back money that was properly the property of Fianna Fáil?"
The above quote from the VB article is very telling. This focuses on the misdeeds within and to the FF party. So for very selfish reasons who in FF is going to shout stop to misappropriation of party funds?
Repayment 18 years later when the Tribunal has got a sniff of it is not repayment at all but the bolting of the stable door after the horse has bolted and should be seen for what it is. No serious public figure would even attempt this unless he is of the few that the gullible masses are ignorant, indifferent or equivocal,, or a combination of these, and unless he was pretty sure that the adjudciating authority (Tribunal in this case) is hardly excercised enough to take the next step (complaint to Gardai).
We are being treated with callous contempt and boy do we deserve it.
Mighty post, Turlough!
You have painted a very accurate and depressing picture of Irish society as it was in decades gone; I just hope that when observers look back over the present state of things they won't be able to pass the same sort of damning judgment on ourselves.
I don't think we have the mix right yet for a democratic and just society, maybe it will never be right but at least we are open enough to question matters we are unhappy with.
With regard to the question posed on this thread, I am certain that Fianna Fail will shout stop when the collective party has decided that it is time to do so.
That decision will be based on pragmatic grounds and will have sweet damn all to do with moral or social issues; self-preservation has been, and always will be, the name of the game.
Alan Mahon's tribunal has been sitting long enough and costing taxpayers enough money for it to be allowed finish its work.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the bleating of Opposition spokespersons at any time.
I think most reasonable people can assume that Bertie will have many questions to answer when the Mahon tribunal delivers its judgment. But assuming is one thing and pre-empting the work of the tribunal is another.
Many on the opposite side of the House could echo what Bertie once said privately to a group I was in. "The big fear with tribunals is that no one can anticipate what they will go into and what will they throw up."
Bertie is no doubt cursing the arrogance of Padraig Flynn during his infamous 'Late Late Show' appearance and the reaction of Tom Gilmartin to Long Paddy's dismissal of himself as being 'unwell.'
Quite probably, Gilmartin's charge that Ahern accepted a bribe from Own O'Callaghan will prove unfounded but Bertie will certainly be in hot water over other matters that came to light as a result of this initial inquiry.
That's ironic but that's also politics!
I'd say; let the tribunal do its work and let Opposition speakers hope that the spotlight isn't turned on their own parties before the show is over, and as for Fianna Fail, there's no organization capable of shouting, "Stop!" as it is.
Quote from: Bogball XV on February 27, 2008, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 11:49:04 AMIn fact I much prefer the policy of FF but I just don't trust them to do what the say.
Seriously?? What policies do they have?
Here - http://www.finegael.ie/uploads/docs/Policy_Briefings_November_2006.pdf
Now lets get back on track. This thread is not about anyone other than FF. It is about the disgusting and criminal behaviour of B Ahern and is anyone wihtin FF willing to do the right thing and put and end to this madness.
Do you have anything to say on the topic?
Quote from: Lar Naparka on February 27, 2008, 02:14:26 PM
Mighty post, Turlough!
You have painted a very accurate and depressing picture of Irish society as it was in decades gone; I just hope that when observers look back over the present state of things they won't be able to pass the same sort of damning judgment on ourselves.
I don't think we have the mix right yet for a democratic and just society, maybe it will never be right but at least we are open enough to question matters we are unhappy with.
With regard to the question posed on this thread, I am certain that Fianna Fail will shout stop when the collective party has decided that it is time to do so.
That decision will be based on pragmatic grounds and will have sweet damn all to do with moral or social issues; self-preservation has been, and always will be, the name of the game.
Alan Mahon's tribunal has been sitting long enough and costing taxpayers enough money for it to be allowed finish its work.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the bleating of Opposition spokespersons at any time.
I think most reasonable people can assume that Bertie will have many questions to answer when the Mahon tribunal delivers its judgment. But assuming is one thing and pre-empting the work of the tribunal is another.
Many on the opposite side of the House could echo what Bertie once said privately to a group I was in. "The big fear with tribunals is that no one can anticipate what they will go into and what will they throw up."
Bertie is no doubt cursing the arrogance of Padraig Flynn during his infamous 'Late Late Show' appearance and the reaction of Tom Gilmartin to Long Paddy's dismissal of himself as being 'unwell.'
Quite probably, Gilmartin's charge that Ahern accepted a bribe from Own O'Callaghan will prove unfounded but Bertie will certainly be in hot water over other matters that came to light as a result of this initial inquiry.
That's ironic but that's also politics!
I'd say; let the tribunal do its work and let Opposition speakers hope that the spotlight isn't turned on their own parties before the show is over, and as for Fianna Fail, there's no organization capable of shouting, "Stop!" as it is.
Fair opinion.
Corrupt planning has and will cost the State much more than the tribunal and in order to prevnt this in the future the tribunal must finish it's work. I am for the tribunal turning on any party or politican involved in corryption. After Ahern has lied to the Tribunal, Dail, and the people (aswell as stel our money) I think he must stand down or be pushed out of office even if the tribunal has not finished his work. No matter what the tribunal finds he will still be guilty of that.
As for "waiting for the Tribunal to make its report..." the mantra oft quoted by FF spokespersons.
Sufficient facts have emerged by any standard, including much of it direct evidence from BA, to require immediate action. But let's look at a hyppothetical situation.....
Let's assume a politician is being investigated for taking bribes .....
In the course of the investigation strong evidence emerges that he has committed murder....
What would we do? Refer this to Gardai or DPP?
No no - according to the the FF mantra, we must wait whatever number of years it takes for the Tribunal report.
Or lets assume the investigation uncovers evidence that the politician is part of Al Quaeda which has plans afoot to blow up planes heading for New York.
Should we use the evidence that has emerged to stop this impending disaster?
Oh no,, say FF, we have to wait for the report....
When the bishops visited Craggy Island Father Jack practised the mantra "That would be an ecumenical matter".
Brian Cowen is fast becoming the Father Jack of Dail Eireann - all he's missing is the GIRLS!
Somebody - stop it.
Are you Leo Varadker? (sp?)
I think Cowen is laying the early groundwork for Bertie to stand down. I think he'll be gone by June.
when is he speaking to the US Senate?
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 27, 2008, 02:34:55 PM
Are you Leo Varadker? (sp?)
I think Cowen is laying the early groundwork for Bertie to stand down. I think he'll be gone by June.
when is he speaking to the US Senate?
:D I hope your not talking to me.
Nah, talking to Leo.
I picture you as more of a Michael Dee Higgins :D
In my opinion based on what i have seen and heard regarding Bertie's finances, i believe him to be involved in something dodgy and that he should walk or be pushed.
However this is just my opinion and the reality of the situation is that he has not yet been shown to be involved in bribery or anything illegal.
if FF want to keep him as their leader thats their business the electorlate will get there chance to show how they feel about this.
this whole situation suits Cowen to a tee. it is distracting attention from the economy etc and concentrating on an issue that will be irrelevant by the next election as Bertie will be gone(local elections). As long as he can keep Edna mouthing about this the better as all FG and Labour are doing is personally attacking a very popular man for what will be no electoral gain.
I always thought that when it came to finding Bertie's successor someone would come out of the woodwork and challenge cowen but it is looking like nobody has the support to take him on because if they did they would have called a vote of no confidence in Bertie this week.
:o
Wish I never asked. :D
Quote from: guy crouchback on February 27, 2008, 02:50:49 PM
In my opinion based on what i have seen and heard regarding Bertie's finances, i believe him to be involved in something dodgy and that he should walk or be pushed.
However this is just my opinion and the reality of the situation is that he has not yet been shown to be involved in bribery or anything illegal.
if FF want to keep him as their leader thats their business the electorlate will get there chance to show how they feel about this.
this whole situation suits Cowen to a tee. it is distracting attention from the economy etc and concentrating on an issue that will be irrelevant by the next election as Bertie will be gone(local elections). As long as he can keep Edna mouthing about this the better as all FG and Labour are doing is personally attacking a very popular man for what will be no electoral gain.
I always thought that when it came to finding Bertie's successor someone would come out of the woodwork and challenge cowen but it is looking like nobody has the support to take him on because if they did they would have called a vote of no confidence in Bertie this week.
It is illegal to hide money from the tax man which has been shown to be true.
QuoteIt is illegal to hide money from the tax man which has been shown to be true.
I always thought it was, but as of yet i have heard of no garda or revenue investigation nor have i heard the opposition call for Bertie to be charged
Quote from: Zapatista on February 27, 2008, 02:17:37 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on February 27, 2008, 01:08:06 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 11:49:04 AMIn fact I much prefer the policy of FF but I just don't trust them to do what the say.
Seriously?? What policies do they have?
Here - http://www.finegael.ie/uploads/docs/Policy_Briefings_November_2006.pdf
Now lets get back on track. This thread is not about anyone other than FF. It is about the disgusting and criminal behaviour of B Ahern and is anyone wihtin FF willing to do the right thing and put and end to this madness.
Do you have anything to say on the topic?
Ah, that's FG policies you've shown me!! As for the whether I've anything to say on the topic, I've said plenty in all the other threads on this and similar topics over the past few years, I'm saying no more - they finally wore me down!!
Seriously, it's all a bit irrelevant, he'll be gone before June in my estimation.
No I am not Leo Aradkar as the more reasoned posts from me should demonstrate.
QuoteLet's assume a politician is being investigated for taking bribes .....
In the course of the investigation strong evidence emerges that he has committed murder....
What would we do? Refer this to Gardai or DPP?
No no - according to the the FF mantra, we must wait whatever number of years it takes for the Tribunal report.
Or lets assume the investigation uncovers evidence that the politician is part of Al Quaeda which has plans afoot to blow up planes heading for New York.
Should we use the evidence that has emerged to stop this impending disaster?
Oh no,, say FF, we have to wait for the report....
Leo, I think any reasonable person would agree with you there.
However, there is an important difference between your hypotheses and what is happening in the case of the Mahon Tribunal hearings..
The tribunal is an enquiry into certain allegations that have been made; it is not a court of law.
The late Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke both found to their cost that the tribunals they faced were not to be trifled with and the scope and comprehensivenss of their research took them by surprise. Indeed I'd say all Fianna Fail is feeling the same way now.
Have you noticed that the mantra has changed a lot in recent times?
Now we are been told by senior cabinet members that this tribunal should be wound up forthwith in view of the money and time it is taking.
For some reason, none of them has mentioned even once that the undue delay and most of the considerable expense can be blamed on witnesses who are proving very un-co-operative and reluctant to help the tribunal in any way.
Given his remit as chairman of this inquiry, it is Alan Mahon's call as to whether Bertie Ahern's behaviour should be investigated by either the Gardai or the DPP.
If Justice Mahon decides at any time to send papers to either party I'm sure he will do so, but the outcome of this action will not be decided by him but in the courts as is right and proper.
All great points but do you not think the Tribunal has uncovered enough evidence to prove Ahern is not fit for office this very minute. The Tribunal can continue with Ahern in a job as a taxi driver. There is more tan enough evidence to take him out of office now. He must go.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 27, 2008, 05:08:11 PM
All great points but do you not think the Tribunal has uncovered enough evidence to prove Ahern is not fit for office this very minute. The Tribunal can continue with Ahern in a job as a taxi driver. There is more tan enough evidence to take him out of office now. He must go.
The funny thing is Ahern couldn't actually take on the job of taxi driver at the minute - he can't get a tax clearance certificate ;D
Quote from: Zapatista on February 26, 2008, 05:38:14 PM
Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?
BogballXV would ye have a look at the question above and for my own peace of mind (this sort of stuff is really driving me crazy) give me an answer? Please.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 27, 2008, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 26, 2008, 05:38:14 PM
Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?
BogballXV would ye have a look at the question above and for my own peace of mind (this sort of stuff is really driving me crazy) give me an answer? Please.
Do we know that Bogball has fundraised or donated to FF?
If not why press him for the answer to this?
Quote from: his holiness nb on February 27, 2008, 06:42:07 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 27, 2008, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 26, 2008, 05:38:14 PM
Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?
BogballXV would ye have a look at the question above and for my own peace of mind (this sort of stuff is really driving me crazy) give me an answer? Please.
Do we know that Bogball has fundraised or donated to FF?
If not why press him for the answer to this?
The second part of my question covers this HH.
I would just like to know if he thinks it would be wrong for someone to do this. Not necessarily FF but if you or me or David Cameron or anyone did such a thing.
QuoteAll great points but do you not think the Tribunal has uncovered enough evidence to prove Ahern is not fit for office this very minute.
Obviously, Zap, I sure do agree with you!
It has to be kept in mind that we are not talking about a court of law and Mahon does not have the task of deciding Ahern's culpability in any of the matters that has been discussed. That's the main point I have been making here.
The Judge in charge, Alan Mahon, may at any time refer a matter to the High Court to determine a point of law or send papers relating to some aspect of the case to the DPP but that is all he is empowered to do. He won't, and can't, make any judicial decision.
IMO, the judge is playing a blinder and the very same has to be said about his team of researchers; what they have unearthed must be causing a lot of other politicians many sleepless nights. lest they too get an 'invitation' to come along to discuss matters.
I would imagine that most reasonable people would feel that Bertie's position is no longer tenable and that, sooner or later, he will have to go.
Probably that will be sooner than we might think, if the Fianna fail party feel his goose has been well and truly cooked. They don't do sentiment or loyalty to old friends and benefactors in that organisation.
I think that one reason that Judge Mahon has not referred any matter before him to any other quarter, as yet, is because he deems it most important to conclude his investigations before doing anything that would hinder his investigations. I'd also imagine that the Revenue authorities are keeping a very close eye on proceedings.
A last point here; hearing that a 'loan' of 30K to was given to Celia Larkin is one thing that may upset most of us but, in itself, it is not a crime.
Very likely, the Revenue authorities will get involved at an appropriate time but unless Fianna Fail trustees or whatever section of the part administration is concerned with the management of party funds get a conscience there is nothing illegal involved.
Knowing something is wrong is one thing, but proving it in a court of law is quite another!
FG should be careful for what they wish for. The Biffo will make mincemeat of inda.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 27, 2008, 05:18:16 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 26, 2008, 05:38:14 PM
Is anyone that ever fund raised or donated to FF in any way upset that FF give 30K to Aherns mistress to buy a house? Or would anyone be upset at this if their own chosen party did it?
BogballXV would ye have a look at the question above and for my own peace of mind (this sort of stuff is really driving me crazy) give me an answer? Please.
I'll just be cryptic again, last year the Moriarty tribunal issued a report, in that report it said Charlie done all sorts of bad things, including taking a bit of the money that had been raised in order for Brian Lenihan Sr to receive medical treatment in the states, on primetime that night, I saw Brian Lenihan's son dismiss that little charlie misdemeanour as being a big deal about nothing or something along those lines, imo, that was pretty disgusting.
It's still 15 years ago this stuff. Saw Bertie at 7pm mass in Gardiner Street last Saturday, as the nearby rugby in Croker was finishing. He was there on his own and was amazing to think he was the leader of the country. The government 08 Merc was outside but not a garda in sight.
Thats a great mass to go to. I'd advise ye all to go it is actually a fun and interesting place to be. You go often Aaron? Our paths might have crossed about it once os twice.
Don't often go but was surprised to see Bertie there. He certainly fitted in seamlessly.
Quote from: Aaron Boone on February 27, 2008, 11:17:37 PM
It's still 15 years ago this stuff. Saw Bertie at 7pm mass in Gardiner Street last Saturday, as the nearby rugby in Croker was finishing. He was there on his own and was amazing to think he was the leader of the country. The government 08 Merc was outside but not a garda in sight.
Does Bertie contribute to the collection plate, or does he think it's a weekly 'dig out' by his mate with the black suit and the white collar?
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 28, 2008, 08:18:02 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on February 27, 2008, 11:17:37 PM
It's still 15 years ago this stuff. Saw Bertie at 7pm mass in Gardiner Street last Saturday, as the nearby rugby in Croker was finishing. He was there on his own and was amazing to think he was the leader of the country. The government 08 Merc was outside but not a garda in sight.
Does Bertie contribute to the collection plate, or does he think it's a weekly 'dig out' by his mate with the black suit and the white collar?
Ahern now receives "personal political donations" which is political donations for his own use or a bribe however you want to look at it. Since this revelation came to light it seems other FF ministers have received them too. It's claimed they are used for Ministers to buy tickets, donate to charity and buy drinks for folk in the hope they will get starry eyed and vote for said Minister.
So I am going to guess Ahern did contribute to the collection plate with money received as a "personal political donation" while everyone else donated from their own hard earned money while being starry eyed at the benevolence of Ahern the working mans hero.
STOP
Quote from: Zapatista on February 28, 2008, 08:33:25 AM
Ahern now receives "personal political donations" which is political donations for his own use or a bribe however you want to look at it. Since this revelation came to light it seems other FF ministers have received them too. It's claimed they are used for Ministers to buy tickets, donate to charity and buy drinks for folk in the hope they will get starry eyed and vote for said Minister.
This was the master stroke from the stroke master - breathtaking is how I'd describe it. I literally couldn't believe what I was hearing on Primetime the other night. The mind actually boggles - how you could use your testimony so deliberatly to create a loophole for your misdeeds, then get your minions to pronounce that this is the way it always has been, that apparently those actions were and are ethical, because ethics were different back then. They sure were, becuase going by the testimony there were, and in fact are, no ethics to speak of. Absolute doublethink - "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past".
Quote from: Mentalman on February 28, 2008, 04:01:09 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 28, 2008, 08:33:25 AM
Ahern now receives "personal political donations" which is political donations for his own use or a bribe however you want to look at it. Since this revelation came to light it seems other FF ministers have received them too. It's claimed they are used for Ministers to buy tickets, donate to charity and buy drinks for folk in the hope they will get starry eyed and vote for said Minister.
This was the master stroke from the stroke master - breathtaking is how I'd describe it. I literally couldn't believe what I was hearing on Primetime the other night. The mind actually boggles - how you could use your testimony so deliberatly to create a loophole for your misdeeds, then get your minions to pronounce that this is the way it always has been, that apparently those actions were and are ethical, because ethics were different back then. They sure were, becuase going by the testimony there were, and in fact are, no ethics to speak of. Absolute doublethink - "Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past".
Don't go too wild there MM. He stole it from another politician.
See here - http://www.libdemvoice.org/questions-raised-over-labours-election-financing-in-manchester-1157.html
There are more similarities about it too - Manchester, corruption, building sector etc lets play spot the difference it might be easier than spot the similarities.
Pity to see this thread slipping way down the ratings. I have enjoyed it very much.
Maybe we’d all have saved a lot of clicking and typing if we had paid attention to Leo’s original question:
“Will anyone inn Fianna Fail shout stop?”
You see, at the moment, it is up to Fianna Fail to pull the plug.
The Gardai may sometime in the future decide to get involved. The same might apply to the Revenue. Notice how fast they have been to say they’d be investigating Celia Larkin’s loan from FF?
It should not come as a big surprise if they announced at any time that they wanted to have a chat with Bertie over the revelations that have come out of his dealings with the Mahon Tribunal.
At present however, the ball is in Fianna Fail’s court. To answer Leo’s question, I’d say, Yes, plenty in FF will, if they see Bertie’s leadership proving a liability to the party, and if it happens, it will have sweet damn all to do with morality or legal points.
As Babs Keating (I think) once remarked, “There’s only six inches of a difference between a slap on the back and a kick up the arse!”
I have no doubt whatsoever that Bertie is guarding his arse very carefully those days. ;D
Your absolutely right Lar, it is a pity to see this thread slip down the ratings ;)
I atribute it to the large six county populations and the sheep like support of FF from FFers, adding to the complete lack of outrage.
Or else, perchance, that everyone is more or less on the same page, even FFers, and there's not a real debate there.
Dammit AZO stop exposing my negativity ;D
The statement in the Indo that the Revenue have said that they are investigatiing Celia Larkin's Loan from Fianna Fail is clearly a nonsense. The Revenue do not inform newspaper journalists or any one else of what they are doing with regard to any taxpayer. You can't believe everything you read in the papers, Lar Naparka.
Why would they not investigate it?
I agree that the Indo print alot of nonsence too. It's the Sunday World for those too afraid to by the Sunday World. Like they guys who are to afraid to buy Playboy and settle for FHM.
Maybe these guys will stop the madness.
"Over 100 People to Protest for Accountability"
http://www.resignmrahern.com/
I'd be interested to see how many of the 1000 who have confirmed actually turn up.
I love how he says it will dispel the "myth" that people are sick of hearing about the Mahon tribunal. Its not a myth, I'm sick of hearing about it.
Dont get me wrong, I think he should step down. But when "Gavin" says its a "myth" that people are sick of hearing about the tribunal, I would have to say speak for yourself Gavin.
How many?
No idea.
Depends what happens between now and then, and how well its advertised.
I was at the anti war march before the terrorist attack on Iraq, and an argument made by pro war people in repsonse to the massive crowds who turned out was that this was a small percentage of the population and that everyone who stayed at home must have supported the war. This is a stupid argument of course, but prepare for the same after this one.
I agree but the link says 100 confirmed not 1000 as you said.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 01, 2008, 01:24:18 PM
I agree but the link says 100 confirmed not 1000 as you said.
Oops :-[
To be honest if they only have 100 confirmed I wouldnt bother. You would need people out in their tens of thousands at the very least to even register on the radar.
QuoteThe statement in the Indo that the Revenue have said that they are investigatiing Celia Larkin's Loan from Fianna Fail is clearly a nonsense. The Revenue do not inform newspaper journalists or any one else of what they are doing with regard to any taxpayer. You can't believe everything you read in the papers, Lar Naparka.
Hold on there, Onlooker, I didn't read it in the Indo.
I got it from BreakingNews.ie and I know it was widely reported elsewhere. I wouldn't get too excited about anything I'd pick up on the Indo - but they all can't be wrong.
I cannot quote verbatim at this stage but I recall reading that a spokesman for the Revenue had confirmed that they proposed investigating the circumstances under which Ms. Larkin obtained the loan to buy a house for her elderly aunts.
I might be open to challenge here, but I feel that's the gist of what was carried in other media also.
To date, the Revenue Commissioners have not moved to rebut this claim and not a single paper or radio/TV channel has chosen to retract it.
Given the present laws of libel, I'd say no one would have published such a report unless its source could be verified.
So, what's the problem?
The only problem is that the Revenue do not issue statements about their dealings with anyone's tax affairs. There is no way that any Revenue official would inform a journalist that they were going to investigate any taxpayer. They may well investigate someone, but are certainly not going to make a public statement about it. I do not believe that whoever wrote the article whether in Breaking News ot the Indo actually interviewed a Revenue spokesperson. It would be a serious breach of confidence for a Revenue official to be discussing anyone's tax position with a journalist.
Quote from: Onlooker on March 02, 2008, 01:01:53 AM
The only problem is that the Revenue do not issue statements about their dealings with anyone's tax affairs. There is no way that any Revenue official would inform a journalist that they were going to investigate any taxpayer. They may well investigate someone, but are certainly not going to make a public statement about it. I do not believe that whoever wrote the article whether in Breaking News ot the Indo actually interviewed a Revenue spokesperson. It would be a serious breach of confidence for a Revenue official to be discussing anyone's tax position with a journalist.
Are you seriously suggesting that no officials employed by the revenue are capable of leaking information to any section of the media, catch a grip, it happens all the time. Of course they don't issue statements but there's more than one way to get that sort of info into the public domain.
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 11:49:04 AM
I don't like FG as a Unionist party
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS, WHAT THE f**k DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, FINE GAEL IS A NATIONALIST PARTY. ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL.
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS, WHAT THE f**k DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, FINE GAEL IS A NATIONALIST PARTY. ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL.
[/quote]
Ach Sam, they're not exactly sound on the national question now.
Quote from: Onlooker on March 02, 2008, 01:01:53 AM
The only problem is that the Revenue do not issue statements about their dealings with anyone's tax affairs. There is no way that any Revenue official would inform a journalist that they were going to investigate any taxpayer. They may well investigate someone, but are certainly not going to make a public statement about it. I do not believe that whoever wrote the article whether in Breaking News ot the Indo actually interviewed a Revenue spokesperson. It would be a serious breach of confidence for a Revenue official to be discussing anyone's tax position with a journalist.
It might of came from Larkin herself.
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on March 02, 2008, 02:55:14 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on February 23, 2008, 11:49:04 AM
I don't like FG as a Unionist party
HOLY MOTHER OF JESUS, WHAT THE f**k DO YOU MEAN BY THAT, FINE GAEL IS A NATIONALIST PARTY. ALWAYS HAS BEEN, ALWAYS WILL.
They are in favour of an Irish noation in a
union with Britan. Which makes them Unionists.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 02, 2008, 02:44:10 PM
They are in favour of an Irish noation in a union with Britan. Which makes them Unionists.
Are they 'in favour'? Or are they just not willing to fight Ulster Unionism to liberate Ulster Unionists from British tyranny? If it's the latter, they're no different than FF. Or even, these days, SF
No. They are in favour of a united Ireland within in the Union of Ireland England Scotlant and Wales. Hence - Unionists.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 02, 2008, 07:49:18 PM
No. They are in favour of a united Ireland within in the Union of Ireland England Scotlant and Wales. Hence - Unionists.
Thats UTTER BULLSHIT. Fine Gael are for a United Ireland, with the agreement of the Majority of the people of the Republic in one Constitutional Referendum & with the agreement of the Majority of the the people of Northern Ireland in a second Constitutional Referendum. Fine Gael Party & Voters do not believe it is correct to enforce Re-Unification against the will of either the majority of the people North or South, neither do they agree with enforcing Unionism on the majority.
Zap as you are obviously NOT a Democrat this concept will be very hard for you to understand. Not all Nationalists or Republicans share your belief in either Militant or Bullyboy Nationalism.
There will be a United Ireland it WILL HAPPEN, but Fine Gaelers & many Fianna Failers & others are willing to wait until it is the will of the people not the result of force. If we where to take it by force we would be no better than the Invader.
Quote from: Son_of_Sam on March 03, 2008, 01:46:27 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on March 02, 2008, 07:49:18 PM
No. They are in favour of a united Ireland within in the Union of Ireland England Scotlant and Wales. Hence - Unionists.
Thats UTTER BULLSHIT. Fine Gael are for a United Ireland, with the agreement of the Majority of the people of the Republic in one Constitutional Referendum & with the agreement of the Majority of the the people of Northern Ireland in a second Constitutional Referendum. Fine Gael Party & Voters do not believe it is correct to enforce Re-Unification against the will of either the majority of the people North or South, neither do they agree with enforcing Unionism on the majority.
Zap as you are obviously NOT a Democrat this concept will be very hard for you to understand. Not all Nationalists or Republicans share your belief in either Militant or Bullyboy Nationalism.
There will be a United Ireland it WILL HAPPEN, but Fine Gaelers & many Fianna Failers & others are willing to wait until it is the will of the people not the result of force. If we where to take it by force we would be no better than the Invader.
How do you get the opinion I am not a democrat? That is the lowest form of debate. I am not a Nationalist!! I do not believe in bullyboy tactics or unnecessary Militarism.
As I said I know FG are in favour of a United Ireland. I also know they are in favour of a United Ireland within a British - Irish Union, making them Unionists.
If FG and FF where serious about there United Ireland ambitions then the would try to convince the people of this and that it is the right thing to do.
Take for example the Lisbon Treaty. FF and FG want the people to vote Yes in the Treaty. They will spend a lot of money and work very hard to get the support needed to do it. They are NOT "
willing to wait until it is the will of the people not" but will put their opinion out into the public and try to convince them to vote yes. If they put half as much effort into their United Ireland ambitions then I might be convinced that they are serious. Politics is not about waiting for the people to decide but trying to encourage them to decide and giving them the opportunity to decide.
Fishead Sam
i always find that when you type in capitals you get your point accross better.
Remember this rant you had a few months ago?
''T.FERON despite your lack of knoweledge of the Southern mind, we are obviouly fearfull of a similar disaster put on West Germany by having to accomodate East Germany, we are ALL REPUBLICANS, but your defination SCARES THE SHIT OUT OF US, we donn't want a right wing Catholic Regeime, or a left wing Communist Republic, we want our Country, to be honest if you want to join we REFUSE TO CHANGE, all you Republicans camn down, all you Unionists cop the f**k on.
Why should we change, we have a great fucken Country. You all become like us or Im not interested.This is MY COUNTRY, & I AM PROUD OF IT.''
I must say Sam that is very democratic of you
QuoteThe only problem is that the Revenue do not issue statements about their dealings with anyone's tax affairs. There is no way that any Revenue official would inform a journalist that they were going to investigate any taxpayer.
Sorry, Onlooker, at the start I thought you were on a bit of a wind up. I now know you are being dead serious, so that's okay by me.
The first sentence of the above quote is correct but your second assertion I'm afraid is very off the mark. There are plenty of ways to do this very thing and the Revenue Commissioners are not the only ones to adopt this approach.
We have probably the most restrictive libel laws in the western world and journalists have to be very careful in what they choose to report.
If a variety of media come out with a statement like the one we are referring to, you can be certain all of them are very confident of the reliability of the 'leak,' and very importantly, that the action being mentioned is going to happen very soon.
All journalists, especially Pol Corrs guard their particular sources very carefully and if so many come out with such a statement at the same time, it can only mean that the investigation has already begun, so as to forestall the likelihood of a libel suit by the aggrieved party.
Remember the huge bank robbery in Belfast some years back?
Some time later, the Gardai caught up with a man they "wished to help them with their inquiries," in a house in a remote part of Kerry, or possibly West Cork- I don't exactly recall the location now.
Okay?
There was widespread media coverage of this at the time and it was also reported that the house in question was owned by a well-known IRA supporter in Dublin and that he used to rent the house out to holiday makers. Furthermore it was also reported that Revenue proposed to investigate this as he had not reported the extra source of income to the relevant authorities.
Where did the media get this information from?
Informed leaks come from all quarters and at times this device of reporting confidential matters backfires somewhat. Geraldine Kennedy of The Irish Times had a littler spot of bother some time ago in this regard and so did Brendan Howlin of the Labour Party in relation to information he released in the Dail concerning the McBrearty case in Donegal.
In both cases the Gardai wanted to locate the source of the leaks and threatened prosecution in both instances if the sources were not handed over to them.
Using leaked information can be a risky business for both journalists and politicians alike. I guess but the fact is they frequently use such leaks and choose to run the risk of possible libel action means they are confident of the genuineness of their sources..
HTH.
17 days have passed since the last post here. Anymore developments on the issue?;D
I see the Bert has excelled himself in cowardice by sending his once £66 a week Secretary to tell fables for him to the Tribunal.
What a craven cnut he is
Now the Sterling has deposits have come into play things should get very interesting . He really messed the secratary about
FF Cllf Tommy Murphy has said Bertie Ahern should resign :o
Is the the stop you where looking for Leo?
I must say I had a wee laugh at son of sam / fisheads comments about FG being nationalists.
One of the reasons I wouldnt vote FG is that this is quite obviously not true.
I'd say any FG TD's reading this thread will be cringing at his comments.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 21, 2008, 01:34:33 PM
FF Cllf Tommy Murphy has said Bertie Ahern should resign :o
Is the the stop you where looking for Leo?
The longest journey starts with a single step, so whoever Tommy Murphy is, he has started the inevitable journey.This whole tawdry affair is a black stain on the heart of the nation, not just FF. Sadly, when the rest of FF join this journey they will go so far, but not all the way to Damascus as was demonstrated with Haughey previously.
It might be a nice irony if his protegee,Bertie, hangs around long enough to be at Croke Park in September for the presentation of the Tommy Murphy Cup.
In the meantime it would be good if some journo with time on their hands would set out line by line the various sums involved, Bertie's different explanations/versions (RTE, Dail, doorstep, Tribunal), and "The balance of probabilities" (ie, what the real evidence points to).
Time also for the Fraud Squad & Banking Regulator to go into AIB and turn up the records from just 14 years ago that they have so far failed to produce. When did they buy their computer, for God's sake? Isn't just a few years ago they were forced to repay millions in FX overcharges to thousands of customers and were able to do so within days from their records? The small building society has its records but AIB O'Connell Street doesn't? Hmmm.....
Quote from: Leo on March 21, 2008, 02:11:52 PM
so whoever Tommy Murphy is, he has started the inevitable journey.
He is a Cllr in Louth apparently.Ye wanna her the FFers texting into newstalk to say how bad a Cllr he is ;D
Quote from: Zapatista on March 21, 2008, 02:23:45 PM
Quote from: Leo on March 21, 2008, 02:11:52 PM
so whoever Tommy Murphy is, he has started the inevitable journey.
He is a Cllr in Louth apparently.Ye wanna her the FFers texting into newstalk to say how bad a Cllr he is ;D
If it was any other country Bertie would have been ran long ago. And I'm a FF voter.
By placing loyalty above integrity and refusing to act in the face of mounting evidence of dishonesty, Brian Cowen has demonstrated his unfitness to lead the party, yet alone the Country. Fianna Fail will need to skip a generation when they appoint their next leader, to have any chance of restoring credibility.
Now we have the PDs and Greens looking for an explanation. While I welcome this it is too late for them to save face. It has been clear to us all for a long time that BA is corrupt and it has been clear to them for the same length of time.
I'm not sure who the FF minister was who just said on the radio that it's a matter for FF to deal with is, but he disgusts me. It goes to show the arrogance of FF and how they treat the offices they hold as their own and not the peoples. Republicans? I think not! This is a matter for the Nation. It is quite clear FF will not deal with it.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 27, 2008, 06:29:59 PM
Now we have the PDs and Greens looking for an explanation.
I'd love to hear Michael McDowells perspective on latest development, much as I dislike the guy. After famously "marching his soldiers up to the top of the hill" prior to the election over fresh information given to him, but then being forced to backdown by the country and western brigade of his own party, and now all this comes out. The irony of it all was that was the very move that insured their near implosion in the general election. Now they are coming a bit late to the party. I don't think they realised that the whole "conscience of Fianna Fáil" thing was a mojor reason voters gave their candidates 2nd or 3rd preferences.
As for the Greens, well let's just say they waited for the PDs to ask the questions first before they budged, which is probably smart politics by them, it might be early enough in this governments life that they won't be punished in the next election.
McDowell might be Berties Defence lawyer in the up coming criminal case against Ahern for Perjury, Tax Fraud, Recieving money by fraudulent purposes etc....
Whilst it's an eon too late I do welcome the comments from Harney and the Greens. I'm also becoming less inclined to have any respect for Cowan, even if his supporters are busy trying to defend his lack of action against Ahern as a tactical manouvere to ensure that he is still in pole position come the inevitable removal of Bert, his distinct lack of back bone in taking the bull by the horns on this issue and orcherstrating the heave indicates a contempt for the public at large. Content to sit back and not dirty his hands. Sadly the Irish electorate deserve such contempt for their willingness to tolerate having this corrupt thief as Taoiseach.
Someone over at P.ie mentioned something I hadn't considered* - Charlie McCreevy returning from Brussels to contest the leadership, that would be intersting. And I'd rather have him than Cowan if given the choice betweeen the two.
* EDIT : Somebody with more brains than me has made the point that Charlie is not a TD anymore, and would have to re-elected to the Dail for him to even be considered
QuoteFianna Fail will need to skip a generation when they appoint their next leader, to have any chance of restoring credibility.
Fianna Fail would need to disband and a new political party would need to be formed for them ever to restore credibility. Strokes, Cute Hoorism , lieing, cheating are part of their DNA and that's the way it'll always be.
I don't know if thats true Sthphenite. I know some party's say you must have a TD as leader but some party's don't. SF and the Socialist party leaders are not TDs and I think the PDs have recently changed this in their own party. Besides, when Ahern steps down he will proably (be told to) give up his seat which would lead to a by-election which Charlie could then take in BAs place. My money is on Brian Lenihan though. The more contempt FF show to the people and their partners in Government and the more arrogant they become makes the Government very shaky. After seeing FF responce today I would not rule out a collapse of Government and a new election.
Obviously one person in FF who isn't shouting stop is Dermot "Murphy is Clean" Ahern. He has just demonstarted the arrogance of modern day FF by stating that the issue of the Taoiseach being unable to account for huge sums of foreign currency, giving "conflicting evidence" (lies?) to a Dail-constituted Tribunal, obstructing the Tribunal, misleading the Dail, etc. etc. is a matter for "the party".
No, young Dermot, it is a matter for the people of Ireland or what is left of it as a Republic.
And beyond that it appears to be a matter for the Garda, Revenue, and possbily CAB.
Gormless of the Greens has issued a toothless comment and Harney has always rowed back on her concerns before (Sheedy anyone? O'Flaherty?). I predict that it will take a revolt at the Greens conference to really get this momentum going.
What a sad pathetic political establishment we have. There is more integrity and backbone in Tom Gilmartin that this shower put together.
I have said it before and I will say it again. The President needs to take action in the interest of the country. The Army should be sent in now to take control of the situation. It is quite clear the Politicans, the Gardai, the Media and big business are are not trust worthy and are all involved in the destruction of democracy for their own benefit leaving the people to suffer at the hands of illegal activity on a national scale. Do the right thing Mrs President.
Eamon Dunphy, Eoghan Harris and John Waters are on The Late Late discussing Bertie. They are all interrupting each other and getting nowhere, so Bertie wriggles away again.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 28, 2008, 08:51:14 AM
I have said it before and I will say it again. The President needs to take action in the interest of the country. The Army should be sent in now to take control of the situation. It is quite clear the Politicans, the Gardai, the Media and big business are are not trust worthy and are all involved in the destruction of democracy for their own benefit leaving the people to suffer at the hands of illegal activity on a national scale. Do the right thing Mrs President.
What the Irish Army? Jesus wept, are you on drugs, what exactly would you like them to take control of, who will govern whilst these boys are "taking control"? You expect the army to be able to just step in and take over the policing of the entire state from the Gardai? Are you f**king mad?
Talk about a massive over reation, how exactly are the people suffering at the hands of illegal activity, is this happening on a mass scale - certainly things aren't great but let's not lose the run of ourselves here.
It's not Pakistan or anywhere near it at this stage and the further the President (uesless), the Army and everyone else steers clear until someone in Fianna Fail brings Bertie down the better off we will all be.
With regards to Charlie McCreevy coming back - I really couldn't give a fiddlers if the Pope is the leader of FF, the Taoiseach has to be an elected member of Dail Eireann and I was working under the assumption that any new Taoiseach would also be the leader of the Party
Stephenite - You asked about Charlie taken over the leadership. I assumed you meant the FF leadership.
If the army where to take control it would put an end to the bullshit. The country would still function through the civil service and other structures in already in place' An interim leader could be appointed until new elections where held. I do not expect them to take over policing from the Gardai but I do expect them to police those who seem to be above the Gardai like BA.
The people are suffering through the corruption of our leading politicans. Everything from health to transport to education is running far behind in the service it should be due to this corruption.
It is not Pakistan, it is Ireland and it is a disgrace! We put up with more shit than the Pakistani's do. Western corruption is no better than eastern or African corruption no matter who says it is.
The thing that pissed me off the most was the comment that the Taoiseach and his problems was a matter for FF and no one was going to tell FF what to do. It is quite clear FF believe that they own the offices they hold. The lack of responce to this shows that even the opposition believe FF own the office and if the opposition where elected they would own the office too. This disgusts me. I am a Republican and as a Republican I believe this corruption and lack of democracy must be crushed and replaced with Republicanism. If the only way to do this is sending in the army (Irish army or/and volunteers) then I would be in favour of that.
Do the right thing Mrs President.
QuoteThis disgusts me. I am a Republican and as a Republican I believe this corruption and lack of democracy must be crushed and replaced with Republicanism.
Well, Zap, I too am a Republican but the name of Bob McCartney keeps coming to mind. There was an incident in Ongar, on the west side of Dublin that concerns me also and it is being held as the cause of Sinn Fein's poor showing in the last general election.
Which strand of Republicanism would do the "taking over?" I don't think I could go down that road with you. Anyone talking about the army intervening should bear in mind the fact that army generals the world over tend to stay on in power, long after the supposed reason for their taking over has disappeared.
In the meantime Alan Mahon's tribunal has been working away and is uncovering more unsavoury revelations all the time. If calls for the Gardai, or the CAB or the Revenue Commissioners to intervene had been heeded, when this thread was started, we would never have heard of Grainne Carruth.
The Tribunal would have been put in abeyance and might never resume its work. In the meantime, any move against Bertie would have been met by probably the best legal defense in the country and might not have succeeded in any event.
Did any of you ever stop to consider that Bertie might be wishing right now for such an intervention?
I certainly take no pleasure on seeing him in the mess that he is in but democracy is working and I'd like to see the process continued to a legal conclusion.
As I said, Dermot Ahern - and other senior FF figures - demonstrte an inate arrogance and a contempt for democrarcy and the people of Ireland by stating that the sensational issues bearing down on the Taoiseach are issues for him and "the party".
This should be challenged at every turn as should the fitness for office of many of the same ministers who protest that they believe Bertie (and, presumably the tooth fairy).
Quote Mr McEnroe - "You cannot be serious!" If you are, we are in the doo-doo big time.
Quote from: Zapatista on March 29, 2008, 08:14:40 AM
We put up with more shit than the Pakistani's do. Western corruption is no better than eastern or African corruption no matter who says it is.
That level of ignorance and stupidity saddens me - comparing contemparary Irish society to the conditions that people in these countries suffer dispalys an astounding lack of knowledge - go away and do a bit of reading before making further comments as to what other countries are better off than us.
Take the case of General Musharraf (sp?) who led the army coup in Pakistan about 8 years ago, he's still in power and in that time he suspended the judicary and placed the chief justice under house arrest, closed down newspapers and TV stations, the leader of the opposition party in the lead up to the recent elections, Bhutto, was murdered. Are you seriously suggesting this is the sort of model we should follow?
As for the rest of your comments about republicanism saving Ireland - well God help us all if that occurs as that particular bunch of chavs and pikeys couldn't save shit and I'd far rather a corrupt Bertir Ahern leading the country than anyone that currently represent "republicanism". What strand of republicanism are you suggesting takes over?
Democracy has to run it's course and any deviation from that course is dangerous in the extreme - Bertie Ahern last year was given a significant mandate by the people of Ireland, it's not republicanism's job to distort the wishes of the majority in this country, they've tired that before and it didn't work so what makes you think it will work now?
To finish, the army would have no interest in taking any part in something like this, unless of course you're referring to a different 'private' army?
Would any of well-informed literate citizens care to attempt a definition of Republicanism, you are all arguing about it but displaying little understanding of the philosophy which underpins and defines it. Is Ireland a republic in the true sense of the word. Lets hear from you, hopefully generating light rather than heat
Good call Pangurban - I wouldn't call the island of Ireland a Republic at the moment, I don't think it ever will be. However I also feel that the term Republicanism has been distorted in Ireland and many people (myself included) would have a confused sense of the true meaning.
If I hear republicanism mentioned I think of those prepared to use violence to acheive their aims of a United Ireland. I don't think of Fianna Fail or any of the main stream political parties (Shinners included) on the entire island.
The true meaning of republicanism that preaches liberty and equality for all citizens does not and cannot exist anywhere in my view - power corrupts etc.
I certainly can't!
Furthermore, I don't really see the point in deciding on a definition, if you can follow me; knowing something in theory is one thing and following it in practice is quite another.
An old teacher of mine, Vicky Mangan, was an absolute gentleman and a great instructor to boot. Vicky was also a Republican and had spells in the Curragh internment camp to show for his dedication to The Cause. Vicky belonged to the Ruairi O Bradaigh wing of Republicanism and would wax for hours on the benefits of running the country along (his) Republican ideals.
Even to 15-16 year olds, his ideas seemed crazy but his reasons for being a Republican were obvious enough; he could talk of the depredations of the Black & tans in our locality and of the oppression of the Nationalist people of Northern Ireland eloquently enough.
Even we could understand that "Tiocfaidh ar la" was fine but what was going to happen when that day finally came?
I worked in Finglas for over three decades and I saw Republicans in action there too. But I saw no similarity between the ideals of Vicky Mangan and the actions of the "Shinners" in Finglas. I'd put a bet that many of the individuals who spent their time in the Cappagh House, talking about a united Ireland wouldn't know the Ormeau Road if they were standing on it. I don't think I'd like to see a day with this brand of Republicanism in charge of the country.
Vicky wouldn't have approved of the murder of Bob McCartney either. Yet the thugs responsible would probably claim to be Republicans also.
It was easy to back republicanism when the causes of the oppression were plain to identify but from here on a different set of rules apply.
I'll give my definition of Republicanism when republicans decide on, and follow, theirs.
Quote from: Leo on March 28, 2008, 08:39:31 AM
There is more integrity and backbone in Tom Gilmartin that this shower put together.
I suppose this comment works even if you assume Tom Gilmartin is a man with little in the way of integrity - someone with little will still have more than those with none at all. But if the tribunal finds Tom Gilmartin's allegations to be believable, it will mean that he had his snout in the corrupt trough just as deep as the people he is accusing and the only reason he broke ranks was because he felt agrieved at not getting a big enough share of swill.
QuoteGilmartin and O'Callaghan (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2007/09/30/story27004.asp)
Owen O'Callaghan and Tom Gilmartin were involved in developing rival sites in west Dublin. Cork-based O'Callaghan had the option on lands in Neilstown, which had the necessary D zoning under the 1983 Dublin development plan.
Bank memos show that O'Callaghan acknowledged from the start that the so-called Quarryvale lands Gilmartin was assembling were ''the best'' of the two sites.
Gilmartin's project had better access, while O'Callaghan's lands had been owned by various people for more than a decade without being developed.
The proximity of both sites meant that only one could have the desired D zoning, however. Gilmartin and O'Callaghan first became involved in a business capacity when they agreed in January 1989 that Gilmartin should acquire the option on Merrygrove, the company holding the Neilstown lands, for which he would pay O'Callaghan a down payment of £800,000.
This would leave the way clear for Gilmartin to develop Quarryvale, which would ultimately become the Liffey Valley shopping centre, one of the largest retail developments in the state. The Merrygrove option would be passed to Gilmartin for a further payment of £2.7 million, although the option had to be exercised by October 31 that year.
But by November 1, 1989, Gilmartin had not paid O'Callaghan half the money to exercise the option. Nor did he provide a bank guarantee by the following January in respect of the second half of the £2.7 million then owed.
AIB had become involved with Gilmartin when one of his companies, Barkhill, which held the well-accessed lands, needed funds to continue with the development of the Quarryvale lands. By 1991, AIB would go from being banker to shareholder in Barkhill.
Gilmartin has alleged for almost a decade that both AIB and O'Callaghan conspired to take over Barkhill. Gilmartin invested £4 million in the project, but was bought out for twice that sum.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 29, 2008, 02:49:51 PM
QuoteThis disgusts me. I am a Republican and as a Republican I believe this corruption and lack of democracy must be crushed and replaced with Republicanism.
Well, Zap, I too am a Republican but the name of Bob McCartney keeps coming to mind. There was an incident in Ongar, on the west side of Dublin that concerns me also and it is being held as the cause of Sinn Fein's poor showing in the last general election.
Which strand of Republicanism would do the "taking over?" I don't think I could go down that road with you. Anyone talking about the army intervening should bear in mind the fact that army generals the world over tend to stay on in power, long after the supposed reason for their taking over has disappeared.
In the meantime Alan Mahon's tribunal has been working away and is uncovering more unsavoury revelations all the time. If calls for the Gardai, or the CAB or the Revenue Commissioners to intervene had been heeded, when this thread was started, we would never have heard of Grainne Carruth.
The Tribunal would have been put in abeyance and might never resume its work. In the meantime, any move against Bertie would have been met by probably the best legal defense in the country and might not have succeeded in any event.
Did any of you ever stop to consider that Bertie might be wishing right now for such an intervention?
I certainly take no pleasure on seeing him in the mess that he is in but democracy is working and I'd like to see the process continued to a legal conclusion.
I think you mean Rafferty? This is not being held as the reason SF did bad in the election.
I mean the President should take charge or appoint a interim leader. The strand of Republicanism I would like to see take over would be the strand determined by new elections.
Lads, I'm not that stupid, I know this is never going to happen. I am not sure if I would entrirely support it either but I do like to discuss it. ;)
Quote from: stephenite on March 29, 2008, 11:56:24 PM
Quote from: Zapatista on March 29, 2008, 08:14:40 AM
We put up with more shit than the Pakistani's do. Western corruption is no better than eastern or African corruption no matter who says it is.
That level of ignorance and stupidity saddens me - comparing contemparary Irish society to the conditions that people in these countries suffer dispalys an astounding lack of knowledge - go away and do a bit of reading before making further comments as to what other countries are better off than us.
Take the case of General Musharraf (sp?) who led the army coup in Pakistan about 8 years ago, he's still in power and in that time he suspended the judicary and placed the chief justice under house arrest, closed down newspapers and TV stations, the leader of the opposition party in the lead up to the recent elections, Bhutto, was murdered. Are you seriously suggesting this is the sort of model we should follow?
As for the rest of your comments about republicanism saving Ireland - well God help us all if that occurs as that particular bunch of chavs and pikeys couldn't save shit and I'd far rather a corrupt Bertir Ahern leading the country than anyone that currently represent "republicanism". What strand of republicanism are you suggesting takes over?
Democracy has to run it's course and any deviation from that course is dangerous in the extreme - Bertie Ahern last year was given a significant mandate by the people of Ireland, it's not republicanism's job to distort the wishes of the majority in this country, they've tired that before and it didn't work so what makes you think it will work now?
To finish, the army would have no interest in taking any part in something like this, unless of course you're referring to a different 'private' army?
I am not comparing conditions but comparing the attitude towards corruption. I can't believe you are advising me to go and do a bit of reading. If you have a problem with what I say then challenge what I say and win the arguement. Telling me to go do a bit of reading is a non arguement. Should I read the Independant or the Sun? Should I read the New Testament or the Koran? Perhaps I should read Gandi or Mein Kemph? If you put forward a good arguement I might agree with you.
At no point did I suggest we should follow the Pakistan model. I said there is no difference between eastern, western or African corruption. Like I said Stephenite, challenge what I say if you disagree with it. You are arguing points you created yourself.
If you want I can give you examples of friends and supporters of FF being appointed to high powerd jobs (eg Eoghan Harris), how the media have been controlled by FF (e.g Cowen and his meeting with O'Rielly or RTE and Beverly Cooper Flynns canceled debt) and I can even give you examples of how justice and the Gardai is used for their purposes (eg. Frank Conolly or Rossport). I am not saying it's better in Pakistan but I am saying corruption is wrong everywhere.
You attack me for my Republicanism then ask which strand of Republicanism am I suggesting. Please don't sterotype me. My views are mine alone and not that of any strand.
His mandate was won on perjury and deciet. Like a drug taker in sports is stripped of their victory so should BA be stripped of his. I don't know why you are adressing me saying they have tried that before. I suggested the President should anchor any move to do it and I don't think she has tried it before.
I agree they would have no interest in it. I also know they should do what they are told. Do you think they are interested in Chad?
Stephenite,
I'm not that stupid, I know this is never going to happen. I am not sure if I would entrirely support it either but I do like to discuss it and want to keep this thread alive too. ;)
QuoteI think you mean Rafferty? This is not being held as the reason SF did bad in the election.
I admit that my memory can let me down at times and I do suffer lapses from time to time. (I'm being deadly serious BTW, no sarcasm intended.)
I think I got the right man: his partner, Brigeen Hagans and his two sisters mounted an international campaign to try and 'out' the identity of his killers.
Like my old Irish teacher, there are Republicans, whose integrity I would never question. Their political ideas might need a bit of fine-tuning I'd say but their personal integrity is beyond reproach.
It's the other elements within the broad movement that cause my concern.
There was a case in Ongar, in the Mulhuddart area of Dublin, that was quite similar to the one I mentioned above and political analysts do say that Sinn Fein's poor election showing was partly caused by reaction to both events.
A TV3 documentary ( last night I think) highlighted Provo money laundering and drug dealing in the South Armagh area.
This strand of "Republicanism" is what worries me.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 31, 2008, 11:50:31 AM
QuoteI think you mean Rafferty? This is not being held as the reason SF did bad in the election.
I admit that my memory can let me down at times and I do suffer lapses from time to time. (I'm being deadly serious BTW, no sarcasm intended.)
I think I got the right man: his partner, Brigeen Hagans and his two sisters mounted an international campaign to try and 'out' the identity of his killers.
Like my old Irish teacher, there are Republicans, whose integrity I would never question. Their political ideas might need a bit of fine-tuning I'd say but their personal integrity is beyond reproach.
It's the other elements within the broad movement that cause my concern.
There was a case in Ongar, in the Mulhuddart area of Dublin, that was quite similar to the one I mentioned above and political analysts do say that Sinn Fein's poor election showing was partly caused by reaction to both events.
A TV3 documentary ( last night I think) highlighted Provo money laundering and drug dealing in the South Armagh area.
This strand of "Republicanism" is what worries me.
I live in the Mulhuddart ward (Dublin West) Lar and I think you are talking about Rafferty. His sister, Mrs Urzell (I think thats the correct spelling) did launch a major campaign against SF similar to that of McCartney in Belfast. However the campaign was based in Dublin South East and focused on the SF candidate in that area. Mrs Uzell ran in the election and had a very poor vote on an anti-SF ticket, she is now the FG candidate for the area (DSE) and her campaign was funded and supported by FG. It is now a non issue. The SF candidate in the area had no hope of being elected but did improve his vote from the previous election. His biggest critic in the area lost his seat, I think his name was M McDowell? ;D
I agree that that is worrying and I do not defend it at all. However, bad as it is money laundering by anyone is bad. The Irish Times came very close to claiming BA was laundering money through different currencies and bank accounts. If he was then this is equally as worrying as the Provo's doing it.
Alas, the establishment of a political precedent whereby the President can invoke their right as commander-in-chief to remove the Prime Minister for corruption will not be invoked this time round, thus making the people of Ireland less free than the people of Pakistan, where that right is utilised with impunity. Damn you, Bertie Ahern!
And at last it took Bertie himself to shout stop.
Step up now the spineless and amoral successor ....
Leo, do you honestly believe that Bertie shouted 'Stop' off his own bat? The leading ministers, including Cowen, obviously had a word in his ear about the damage he was doing to the party, and gave him the opportunity to step down with dignity and at a time of his own volition. I had always said that he would step down after his address to Congress, and that's the way it panned out.
You are giving Bertie way too much credit, and in the process trying to move your agenda onto someone who hasn't even been mentioned in relation to dodgy dealing, anecdotally or otherwise, apart from smoking dope :D.
I think this thread should just die.
Quote from: Leo on April 03, 2008, 12:27:21 AM
And at last it took Bertie himself to shout stop.
Step up now the spineless and amoral successor ....
So it wasnt about Bertie at all Leo, it was just an anti FF thing. I dont vote FF, well havent for a while, but heres news for you, the Irish people dont want Enda Kenny in charge. No matter how much you go on about it.
Enda made a right tit of himself yesterday too, in his usual fashion totally misread the mood of the nation over the resignation and then desperately tried to claw back later in the day.
I was cringeing for him.
PR wise, yesterday was a good one for FF and a very bad one for FG.
Quote from: his holiness nb on April 03, 2008, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: Leo on April 03, 2008, 12:27:21 AM
And at last it took Bertie himself to shout stop.
Step up now the spineless and amoral successor ....
So it wasnt about Bertie at all Leo, it was just an anti FF thing. I dont vote FF, well havent for a while, but heres news for you, the Irish people dont want Enda Kenny in charge. No matter how much you go on about it.
Enda made a right tit of himself yesterday too, in his usual fashion totally misread the mood of the nation over the resignation and then desperately tried to claw back later in the day.
I was cringeing for him.
PR wise, yesterday was a good one for FF and a very bad one for FG.
Sorry, his holiness, you've lost the infallibility gene it seems. Absolutely no where in any post have I ever mentioned FG or Enda Kenny.
Absolutely no way was this thread intended to be anti FF - quite the opposite there was an innocent attempt to smoke out the FF members with moral standards but they let me down.
And yesterday was anything but a good ay for FF but it was a good day for the country.
My parting thought is again wistful and over-optimistic that the successor might not be a lackey who unjustifiably supported BA in the face of damning evidence as to his unsuitability in the recnt past.
By the way my first previous first preference election vote was for Dempsey.
Almost a year on. Is it now time?
(http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00281/cowen_281022t.jpg)
Mr Cowen indicated last night that serious criminal charges could end up being brought against those involved in the scandals at Anglo Irish Bank.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-dined-privately-with-anglo-bank-chiefs-1644942.html
Quote from: thejuice on February 19, 2009, 10:30:34 AM
(http://www.independent.ie/multimedia/archive/00281/cowen_281022t.jpg)
Mr Cowen indicated last night that serious criminal charges could end up being brought against those involved in the scandals at Anglo Irish Bank.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-dined-privately-with-anglo-bank-chiefs-1644942.html
This story is a bit of a non stroy to be honest, all political party members attend these PRIVATE functions. I think this story is more a reflection of the dumbing down of the indo that anything else. Even FG admitted this morning on Morning Ireland that is was no big deal.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/judge-warns-cowens-mate-1642055.html
THE Taoiseach's former general election running mate and a former Offaly GAA football manager have been warned by a High Court judge they must provide sworn answers to questions put to them in a legal dispute over multi-million euro "secret profits" allegedly made by them from a number of land deals.
Frank Fahey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Fahey) has been named on another forum as one of the golden ten. That's one bastard who deserves a little bit of comeuppance.
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 08:50:24 AM
Frank Fahey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Fahey) has been named on another forum as one of the golden ten. That's one b**tard who deserves a little bit of comeuppance.
Has he been officially named or is it still rumours?
Quote from: muppet on February 23, 2009, 09:38:06 AM
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 08:50:24 AM
Frank Fahey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Fahey) has been named on another forum as one of the golden ten. That's one b**tard who deserves a little bit of comeuppance.
Has he been officially named or is it still rumours?
Still rumors but I'd say he'll have to make a statement very soon:
http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2009/02/frank-fahey-needs-to-come-clean.html (http://skinflicks.blogspot.com/2009/02/frank-fahey-needs-to-come-clean.html)
Turns out mary Harney was brought to Superbowl XLII and left early (probably to find the hotdog stand). I used to think she was just incompetant but now I just dont like her. What a waste of a ticket. >:(
Quote from: thejuice on February 23, 2009, 09:47:21 AM
Turns out mary Harney was brought to Superbowl XLII and left early (probably to find the hotdog stand). I used to think she was just incompetant but now I just dont like her. What a waste of a ticket. >:(
Apparently it was due to a 'wardrobe malfunction'.
Why are we, the taxpayers, going ahead with the bailout of Anglo Irish Bank, since it has emerged that we, through our representatives, were systematically misled by the bank's management and some of the shareholders as to the true state of its finances? Surely that invalidates the contract and surely the government should be saying sorry lads, no deal - you can have your ould bank back, together with your bad debts, your phantom investments and your hooky loans? Isn't this the issue we should be marching about, since it's perfectly within the government's capability to do it and save us several billion Euros at a stroke?
I think it's too late for that Hardy as my take on it is that as soon as the ridiculous guarantee (cheapest bail out in the world as Lenno said last October) became law the taxpayer took on the debts, thus nationalisation was the only way we could ever hope to see the taxpayer have a chance of benefitting. I think we may well have to do the same with the other two also, unfortunately we are unlikely to be able to afford to.
(http://www.fiannafail.ie/images/store/S19.jpg)
You can buy this beauty for E10 or two for E16 ;D
Perehaps you would be more interested in the cuff links or golf balls?
(http://www.fiannafail.ie/images/store/S8.jpg)
http://www.fiannafail.ie/store.phpx
Quoteridiculous guarantee
That's why they'll never be the Sopranos, Hardy. Though I agree with your contention re. Anglo.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 03, 2008, 09:39:29 AM
Leo, do you honestly believe that Bertie shouted 'Stop' off his own bat? The leading ministers, including Cowen, obviously had a word in his ear about the damage he was doing to the party, and gave him the opportunity to step down with dignity and at a time of his own volition. I had always said that he would step down after his address to Congress, and that's the way it panned out.
You are giving Bertie way too much credit, and in the process trying to move your agenda onto someone who hasn't even been mentioned in relation to dodgy dealing, anecdotally or otherwise, apart from smoking dope :D.
I think this thread should just die.
Even I thought it HAD died but apparently not.
Even More relevant today.
Meanwhile the Bert has spent the weekend a banana republic, where two large conservative parties have governed for decades in the interests of their members, where the vast majority of departmental budgets are spent on bureaucracy and political wages and has a notoriously lax banking system based on custom and cronyism.
No he wasn't in his Co Kerry bolt-hole, he's in Honduras:
http://www.laprensahn.com/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/02/20/Noticias/Firma-de-un-Pacto-Social-necesita-Honduras (http://www.laprensahn.com/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/02/20/Noticias/Firma-de-un-Pacto-Social-necesita-Honduras)
Giving or taking I'm not so sure...
Quote from: Donagh on February 23, 2009, 03:50:31 PM
Meanwhile the Bert has spent the weekend a banana republic, where two large conservative parties have governed for decades in the interests of their members, where the vast majority of departmental budgets are spent on bureaucracy and political wages and has a notoriously lax banking system based on custom and cronyism.
No he wasn't in his Co Kerry bolt-hole, he's in Honduras:
http://www.laprensahn.com/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/02/20/Noticias/Firma-de-un-Pacto-Social-necesita-Honduras (http://www.laprensahn.com/Pa%C3%ADs/Ediciones/2009/02/20/Noticias/Firma-de-un-Pacto-Social-necesita-Honduras)
Giving or taking I'm not so sure...
El Berto now surely ;)
Any word on the Fahy/Fahey story - True or False? Does Enda have anything do you think?
Haven't heard anymore, but I wouldn't have though Inda would have got stuck Cowan in the way he did unless he has something. I'd say he is keeping his powder dry until the Fianna Fail Ard Fheis gets a little closer. That's going to be some craic - I hear 'Mary Coughlan' is going to be singing - the other Mary at the demonstration outside the City West that is... ;D