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I think it's a joke that the fiftieth anniversary of one of the pivotal moments in soccer history is being ignored for fear of invoking the wrath of the thought police.

So here's a link to one of the many fine articles on the subject running in the times this last week. Ye can search for the rest yourselves as i can't be arsed.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3277079.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3277079.ece)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3295268.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3295268.ece)

Feel free (until the thread is locked) to discuss the following:

How Manu parlayed the tragedy into the biggest sporting franchise in the world while treating the survivors and the families of the dead disgracefully
http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/sport/2008/0202/1201903330623.html (http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/sport/2008/0202/1201903330623.html)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3300283.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article3300283.ece)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article725197.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article725197.ece)
Harry Gregg's heroism
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article834760.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article834760.ece)
Bobby Charlton's stoicism
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article667122.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/manchester_united/article667122.ece)
Torino/Juve v Manu/City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superga_air_disaster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superga_air_disaster)
Is Duncan Edwards the football world's James Dean?
http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2005880.mostviewed.duncan_edwards_50_years_on.php (http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2005880.mostviewed.duncan_edwards_50_years_on.php)


Go on surprise me

It's not being ignored. It's in the Man United thread already, and why would the thread be locked anyway? It'd only be locked if someone comes in and starts spouting crap about Munich to rile people up.

Unless you support Manu or Liverpool I doubt if you'd see it, deserves it's own thread in my opinion. Fascinating subject, which I hope will bring the best from contibutors on here.

Why should this have its own thread.surely should be in the man u thread.

I dont think it "deserves" its own thread, there are plenty of references in the Man Utd thread.

Too soon...

Let's have a thread (with a vote) to decide whether it should have its own thread. :P

What's the big deal? Are we that short of space that we can't have a thread specifically about the Munich crash? And what "thought police" are we talking about?

Personally, I think it is a tragic, but ultimately triumphant, story and is justifiably seen as a landmark event in English soccer. I can't say it has much personal meaning for me though.

Quote from: TORGAEL on February 05, 2008, 09:07:53 PM
Why should this have its own thread.surely should be in the man u thread.

the thread is as thread worthy as your post is post worthy. so whats your point?

I, like many others, don't read the Man U thread.

Man Utd thread! :)

Whats the problem with it having a thread of it's own?

At least it's worth reading unlike a lot of other shite that has a thread of it's own.

I think it deserves it's own thread.
Would like to think posters wouldn't have a problem with a Hillsborough thread if the need arose for one in the future

this thread started out as a thread about Munich and has turned into a should we shouldn't we thread.

I for one think it should, Passedit links have raised some very thought provoking questions, especially when Harry Gregg accuses Matt Busby of not doing enough for the survivors and their families, what did they do?

Did Man United use this disaster as a means to gather public sympathy and thus more support?

as POG said its better than some of the drivel

Sorry folks the Irish Times link is no use if you don't subscribe, here's the full story.

Quote
Disaster leaves bitter legacy

For those who survived that terrible night, the treatment they received from the club left a bad taste. Mary Hannigan reports.

Their deaths in Munich immortalised the names of Liam "Billy" Whelan, Duncan Edwards, Roger Byrne, Tommy Taylor, Eddie Colman, Geoff Bent, Mark Jones and David Pegg, the eight Manchester United players who died in February 1958, seven of them instantly, the eighth, Edwards, 15 days later from his injuries.
Many of those who survived, though, were so scarred by the disaster, physically, emotionally or both, the memories of what happened that day haunted them. And for some their bitterness towards the club for the lack of support or recognition they received merely added to their pain.
Harry Gregg, the Northern Ireland goalkeeper, was heroic in the aftermath of the crash, climbing back in to the burning wreckage of the plane to drag team-mates Bobby Charlton and Dennis Viollet clear of danger, as he did, too, for the wife and baby daughter of the Yugoslav air attache in London, Vera and Venona Lukic.
To this day, though, Gregg remains deeply ill at ease with his portrayal as a hero, admitting that he has suffered from "survivor's guilt" ever since. "I've never been comfortable about being portrayed as some kind of John Wayne or the hero of Munich," he said in his book Harry's Game.
"I couldn't face meeting Joy Byrne, Roger's widow, Geoffrey Bent's wife, Marion, David Pegg's family and many others. I couldn't look those people in the eye knowing I'd lived when their loved ones had perished."
Little wonder Gregg was so haunted by the experience, bearing in mind what he saw when he clambered back in to the plane. "Roger Byrne didn't have a mark on him and his eyes were open, but he was clearly dead. I've always regretted that I didn't close his eyes. When I found Jackie Blanchflower, the lower part of his right arm had been almost completely severed. It was horrendous, a scene of utter devastation."
Blanchflower, a close friend of Gregg since the days they played for Northern Ireland schoolboys, survived, but never played football again.
"I've never got over it," he said in an interview with the Irish News before his death in 1998. "It was around eight or nine months after the crash when they told me I couldn't play again. I went to see a specialist in London who told me to pack it in. It was shattering - I can't really describe it any better."
At the time Blanchflower lived in a house owned by the club. Once it was determined that he would not play again he was asked to vacate it. "It was made pretty clear we had to leave," his wife Jean told the London Independent eight years ago, "they were very cold, very harsh, after the crash."
"I didn't get any counselling," said Blanchflower, "and ironically, when I was 54 and looking for a job, I applied for a job as a counsellor but they told me I had no experience or university training. That just made me more sceptical than ever.
"I'd not made any plans and then there I was left on my own in the big, ugly world," he said. "I'd been cocooned playing football and then all of a sudden it was gone."
United director Louis Edwards offered Blanchflower a labouring job in his meat packaging factory. Blanchflower declined the offer and attempted to earn a living from a number of jobs over the years, briefly owning a newspaper shop, working for a bookie, then getting a job in a pub, before "going to school and becoming a finance officer". He ended his days as an after-dinner speaker.
Like Blanchflower, Johnny Berry never played again, having suffered a fractured skull, broken pelvis and broken jaw, that necessitated the removal of all his teeth, so seriously injured he received the last rites in the Munich hospital. He received his end-of-employment notice from the club by post. He, his wife and eight-month-old son were asked to vacate their United-owned home. He died in 1994.
United goalkeeper Ray Wood, who died in 2002, was another survivor of the crash. In 1998 he and the eight other players who survived Munich were invited by Uefa to that year's European Cup final in the German city.
"I had tears in my eyes," he said, "this was recognition, after 40 years, which we never had in all that time from United."
Albert Scanlon, who fractured his skull in the crash, resulting in the scrapping of his previously agreed transfer to Arsenal, was equally bitter. "The only compensation we received was a few hundred pounds from BEA (the airline). The club did pay our wages while we were injured, but apart from that they gave us nothing. Nowadays, I even have to pay, just like anybody else, to watch United play."
When he was discharged, on crutches, from the hospital in Munich, Scanlon returned to Britain, understanding that the taxi he used in the following weeks was being paid for by the club. Club secretary Les Olive, however, advised him to stop using the taxi, informing him that the club wasn't, in fact, footing the bill.
It wasn't until 1998 that the club staged a benefit match for the survivors of Munich. After expenses each of the living survivors, or their immediate families, received £47,000. Eric Cantona, the star attraction that night, and his European X1 received £90,555 for travel and miscellaneous expenses.
"We feel that we helped to build Manchester United," said Wood. "They received massive international support following the disaster but they didn't treat people properly then, did nothing for us all those years, and they're still making money out of it directly now."
Wood wasn't wrong. When the club raised a banner at Old Trafford last week to commemorate the Munich Air Disaster the supporter's association asked them to remove their sponsor's logo. They turned down the request.
A magnificent football club, no doubt, just one that forgot what it owed to those who helped make it what it is today.

jesus christ seriously why would anyone care so much about whether or not this deserves its own thread or not? surely theres more trifles in your life than this?

seeing as their are loads of joke bout every other 'tragedy' tsumanis Ethiopia holocaust setb 11 ect ect.  how long is it before we can make jokes about some h foreign soccerball teams demise  . or are the mods just aping english clubs where these sort of jokes would lead to further holliganism riot and murder.
really is time we grew up

The mods don't need to ape any english clubs with regard to these jokes. The board was a cesspit of rubbish between Liverpool and Man Utd 'fans' for a while. Maybe before you were here, but there certainly wasn't much discussion going on. That's why the Rule 4 was brought in.

This thread certainly does not breach rule 4, nor do any of the posts in it so far. There is an argument for merging it, and I have had some 'reports' to do just that, but on the whole I think the topic is worthy of discussion outside of the normal Man Utd thread.

I voted the 4th choice :D

Quotethe wife and baby daughter of the Yugoslav air attache in London, Vera and Venona Lukic

Mother and sister of former Leeds/Arsenal keeper, John Lukic, I believe.

Really Billy? Jaysus I didn't know that.

dont think thats right billy. its an 'urban legend' according to wikipedia (although it is never very reliable)

Appears not, as per the man himself

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/funny_old_game/1787387.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/funny_old_game/1787387.stm)

QuoteThe board was a cesspit of rubbish between Liverpool and Man Utd 'fans' for a while. Maybe before you were here,

i doubt that, but if i smell a cess pit then i dont look into  ,
if the west brits we turning the place rancid why not ban they rarther than restrict everyone elses free speech .
what else do you expect from a pig but a grunt

'A magnificent football club, no doubt, just one that forgot what it owed to those who helped make it what it is today.'

So magnificent that they removed the words Football Club from their badge for branding reasons

What on earth has slagging Man Utd PLC got to do with a thread about Munich?

Re. Lukic, I knew that the urban legend, i.e. 'that he was the only surviving premiership player that was on the Munich plane' was untrue, but I thought that he'd previously confirmed that the Lukic woman was his mother.  I guess not, at this point.

http://www.rte.ie/sport/audiovideo.html (http://www.rte.ie/sport/audiovideo.html)

Dunphy's interview with Harry Gregg from last Sat morning - clink on the link

Imo the thread title is very poor taste.

There will be a minutes silence before the Croke Pk game tonight.
I'd assume it's in memory of Liam Whelan.

QuoteImo the thread title is very poor taste.

You're entitled to your opinion Main Street and it was intended to be i questionable taste to lure the Maude Flanders of this board in then present them with something they couldn't get outraged by. I had meant to change it early today for the day that's in it but got sidetracked. Will change it now.

BTW Mod could I have some feedback on how many times this thread was reported and what for?

Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 02:57:22 PM

QuoteImo the thread title is very poor taste.

You're entitled to your opinion Main Street and it was intended to be i questionable taste to lure the Maude Flanders of this board in then present them with something they couldn't get outraged by. I had meant to change it early today for the day that's in it but got sidetracked. Will change it now.

BTW Mod could I have some feedback on how many times this thread was reported and what for?

There were no reports for the content at all. Sorry to disappoint you.

I think there were 4 requests to merge it back into the Man Utd thread, which we will do when the anniversary passes. I think it deserves a thread of it's own today.
1 other request to change the title, and that's it.

I didn't expect any Mod, but for the benefit of the two people who wanted to know what the thought police were, here's a useful link.

http://www.orwelltoday.com/police.shtml (http://www.orwelltoday.com/police.shtml)

a bit like the thread police.

For once Mod this is not a dig at you but rather the tittle tattle behaviour which all these rules have encouraged. My opinion only obviously.

Still think the thread was definitely worth it if only to clear up the Lukic issue. I was stumbling about in the same darkness as Billy.

Just got back from Old Trafford today.
Outside was a decent and simple showing of respect.
People gathered under the memorial, queued to leave and view the floral tributes. Crowd sang a few songs, and then fell silent as the celebrants voice was broadcast outside. 23 candles were lit by Gary Neville, each enscribed with a victims name, and a minutes silence followed at 15.04. This was follwed by a round of applause , and then the singing of the flowers. It was respectful, not maudlin and appropriate.


It was good to see the diversity in the crowd. Many old folks, obv those who had seen and lived through the actual event, and a great number of young lads who had made the effort to get off work for a few mins to be there and show respect.

QuoteBTW Mod could I have some feedback on how many times this thread was reported and what for?

You forgot your book-burning and KKK pics passedit.  ;)

Quote from: passedit on February 06, 2008, 02:57:22 PM

QuoteImo the thread title is very poor taste.

You're entitled to your opinion Main Street and it was intended to be i questionable taste to lure the Maude Flanders of this board in then present them with something they couldn't get outraged by. I had meant to change it early today for the day that's in it but got sidetracked. Will change it now.

It looks like you agreed with my opinion.

I never entered into the relevent EPL soccer thread so I haven´t a clue what went on there.
I thought that mocking Munich was an EPL thing (and some fans of a team in the 3rd level)

It should never ceases to amaze me how Irish people get so worked up about foreign league soccer.

Fair play to Arsenal and Everton , a nice touch to include todays memorial on their official site

Arse
http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=487248&lid=NewsHeadline&Title=Remembering+Munich+-+February+6,+1958 (http://www.arsenal.com/article.asp?thisNav=News&article=487248&lid=NewsHeadline&Title=Remembering+Munich+-+February+6,+1958)

Everton
http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/munich-tribute.html (http://www.evertonfc.com/news/archive/munich-tribute.html)

plus city

http://www.mcfc.co.uk/default.sps?pagegid={DBD12D53-8346-431D-A04F-5D0F8664DE80}&newsid=530078 (http://www.mcfc.co.uk/default.sps?pagegid=%7BDBD12D53-8346-431D-A04F-5D0F8664DE80%7D&newsid=530078)
city also flying flag at half -mast too.

seen a lot of the service on mutv.. it wsa very moving, yet at times funny and lighthearted.. listening to harry gregg, and bobby charlton and nobby stiles was very interesting.. looking forward to heading to manchester on sat for the match and weekend..

(http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_01/EdwardsStatueNTI_468x310.jpg)

Id have preferred a bar scarf but the intent was good

I believe there were a few jeers at Wembley during the minutes silence.

Quote from: Minder on February 06, 2008, 10:22:37 PM
I believe there were a few jeers at Wembley during the minutes silence.

There were a few in Croke Park too

There is always going to be a few idiots, no matter what the circumstances. Just ignore them and move on.

Just a thought, does Bobby Charlton benefit in any way financially from the numerous media appearances he has made around this anniversary, this is the man that released two autobiographies simultaneously........

Quote from: J70 on February 06, 2008, 10:28:15 PM
There is always going to be a few idiots, no matter what the circumstances. Just ignore them and move on.

Totally agree...Theres always a few idiots every no matter what people say.!
Some grounds have minutes applause now for these things.Which I dont agree with....If you cant be quiet for 1 minute dont bother going....

I would like to call an end to this thread. Due respect has been observed by the majority for something that is relevant to the few.
May we all show the same restraint in future circumstances.

(http://www.manutdzone.com/oldtrafford/oldtraffordphotos/clock.jpg)

Here here.

On that sentiment lads, I'll close the thread.

RIP Busby Babes.