Bertie now says he expects not to be able to get a tax clearance certifictae for 2 years.
Now his office needs painted. I will not be able to tender foor this job if I cant produce a cert yet he can run the bloody country.
My former GAA club in Meath has been approved a grant for building but cannot emply and contractor or architect who does not have a current cert. Yet Bertie can hold the top job.
Now forget about the niceties of an "aplication certificate". These facts are stark.
Is it acceptable in a so-called modern democracy?
Fr Ted is alive and well ......
Do as I say, not as I do....
QuoteHave AIB been smitten by Bertie's poor record keeping
No. A colleague of mine worked on just that system for a major IT company, and he was 100% confident that the physical evidence still exists IF it ever entered the system in the first place. Basically the storage of the physical evidence is completely automated in one facility to the extent that a query at a computer terminal there will return the storage container that contains it, and then the user just opens the box and selects the required documentation....of course as I said earlier it has to exist in the first place.
course he should, it a disgrace. no other banana republic would put up with it..
The only people who can legally rule on who is or isnt tax compliant are the Revenue Commissioners. Until they declare him non-compliant, there is no story. Nothing to see here, movealong
Quote from: Pangurban on January 22, 2008, 08:25:43 PM
The only people who can legally rule on who is or isnt tax compliant are the Revenue Commissioners. Until they declare him non-compliant, there is no story. Nothing to see here, movealong
If they don't give him a tax clearance cert by 24th Feb, they have ruled his tax affairs are not in order. For the time being they are content to wait until the tribunal writes its report on Ahern's dealings, simply because they want to wait and get everything, also we should bear in mind that Ahern has told the revenue the same story he has told the tribunal, thus it's as handy for the revenue to sit back and watch the tribunal expose the story as total nonsense.
I don't think Ahern should ever have been taoiseach, but at the same time I will feel sorry for him when he has to serve 4 months of a 1 year sentence, it's very harsh, and tbh it's probably his idiot advisers in the Drumcondra 'kitchen cabinet' who are the real culprits, their stupidity in telling him to brazen it out instead of coming clean several years ago will result in the greatest ignominy ever experienced by an Irish taoiseach (it's a good sign of irish democracry all the same, no sign of Chirac/Kohl/Berlusconi et al doing time).
Are you for real Bog-Ball, ach no, no one could be that naive
Shame on us for allowing this to continue.
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 12:49:52 AM
Are you for real Bog-Ball, ach no, no one could be that naive
On what basis can he avoid prosecution? Burke was jailed for tax evasion on a similar scale to Ahern (in summing up the custodial sentence, the judge noted that it was because of who he was), Michael Collins has been given a suspended jail sentence for a false SIPO declaration, I really can't see Ahern avoiding jail, thusfar there is a possibility that he has:
- perjured himself in front of the tribunal
- evaded tax for 13/14 years
- engaged in corrupt activitites
- made 2 false SIPO declarations.
I presume it's not an offence to lie to the dail or on RTE, though crying when lying on RTE should be prosecutable?
I reckon they'll cut a deal and he'll only serve a few months though.
Sure paying tax is only for little people isn't it. Now don't lets all be unpatriotic and get stuck into poor old Bertie - Shure isn't he doing a great job
We cant let him away without punishment, pity we didnt catch Haughey in the act. I've no vendetta against FF or Bertie personally but he's broken a law, he pays the full price, end of discussion.
Quotebut he's broken a law, he pays the full price, end of discussion.
I agree. I would be a Fianna Fáil voter, albeit not one emotionally invested in it. I have cast votes for other parties in the past. However I think Bertie is rapidly becoming a hinderence to the party, rather than a benefit, which he was until this tribunal began to really expose some strange carry on to say the least. He now runs the risk of waiting too late to give his successor any time to repair the PR damage which is being done. If he cared about the party at all, he'd probably resign. Then again, maybe he cares more about Bertie, the public persona, rather than FF the party.
However, I presume you are missing an 'if' there in my quote. I don't think he's actually been found guilty of anything at all yet? In fact I don't think he's been charged with anything at all yet.
Jaysus, youse Biffs can't wait to get your man into the saddle - show a bit of decorum ffs.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 23, 2008, 12:29:21 PM
Quotebut he's broken a law, he pays the full price, end of discussion.
I agree. I would be a Fianna Fáil voter, albeit not one emotionally invested in it. I have cast votes for other parties in the past. However I think Bertie is rapidly becoming a hinderence to the party, rather than a benefit, which he was until this tribunal began to really expose some strange carry on to say the least. He now runs the risk of waiting too late to give his successor any time to repair the PR damage which is being done. If he cared about the party at all, he'd probably resign. Then again, maybe he cares more about Bertie, the public persona, rather than FF the party.
However, I presume you are missing an 'if' there in my quote. I don't think he's actually been found guilty of anything at all yet? In fact I don't think he's been charged with anything at all yet.
See, this is the problem I have with Bertie and Fianna Fail-lers. They care about, 1) themselves, 2) De Paaaaarty, 3) The country in that order.... And they cant even see that this is not the way it should be. Bertie's hubris and arrogance about being a man 'of de people' and being 'de last socialist' is coming back to smack him in his well fed, tax avoiding, bourgoise fat face and I for one hope he goes in the most humiliating way possible... See how his name and Charlie 'The crook's' name are now always in the same paragraph..
It will be his final legacy, just like his old Boss!!!
I is really frightening that there are people whom we believe are intelligent and right thinking yet see no wrong in what is happening.
Some even believe his many conflicting accounts on the events. Scary stuff.
Letter to todays Times hits the nail on the head.
THE VIEW FROM FIANNA FáIL
Madam, - I don't often agree with Fintan O'Toole but he is dead right about Fianna Fail's twisted view of itself (Opinion, January 22nd).
I was once asked by a Fianna Fáil friend, an intelligent and thoughtful person, to join the party. I refused, on the grounds that Fianna Fáil cannot distinguish between the national interest and the Fianna Fáil interest.
"But surely," he said, genuinely and seriously, "they're the same thing." - Yours, etc,
JASON O'MAHONY, Coppinger Glade, Stillorgan, Co Dublin.
Quote from: Zapatista on January 23, 2008, 01:36:14 PM
I is really frightening that there are people whom we believe are intelligent and right thinking yet see no wrong in what is happening.
Some even believe his many conflicting accounts on the events. Scary stuff.
Your quote is "on the money" if you will allow me to use such a loaded expression.
However away from Bertie and leave all the incredulity of his idiotic fairy tales out of it, and back to the original question - "sholud
a Taoiseach be tax compliant?"
I would have thought that anyone who answers no to that question is neither a republican or a democrat. It is a simple matter of principle and right.
The Oireachtas has passed legislation whereby
any person or business bidding for government work has to prove tax compliance. How does he do that? Only one way - produce a tax clearance certificate. If he cant, if Revenue wont issue it - per se he is not tax compliant. No FF fudge can alter this premise.
Of course a Taoiseach should be tax compliant.
Thats a straightforward answer.
He should hand over to Cowen immediately.
Of course. Everyone should be tax compliant and the Taoiseach should be setting a good example.
Interesting point someone made about the "Drumcondra Mafia". From personal experience they are not to be trifled with. I would be a "FF natural" in terms of family history etc but I had mixed feelings about Bertie from then on. It's well past time he did the decent thing.
Quote from: Declan on January 23, 2008, 01:47:18 PM
Letter to todays Times hits the nail on the head.
THE VIEW FROM FIANNA FáIL
Madam, - I don't often agree with Fintan O'Toole but he is dead right about Fianna Fail's twisted view of itself (Opinion, January 22nd).
I was once asked by a Fianna Fáil friend, an intelligent and thoughtful person, to join the party. I refused, on the grounds that Fianna Fáil cannot distinguish between the national interest and the Fianna Fáil interest.
"But surely," he said, genuinely and seriously, "they're the same thing." - Yours, etc,
JASON O'MAHONY, Coppinger Glade, Stillorgan, Co Dublin.
dear jason, what a load of crap. as a lifelong ffer i think bertie is a disgrace and should go.
yours etc M kingdom
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 23, 2008, 02:26:11 PM
Of course. Everyone should be tax compliant and the Taoiseach should be setting a good example.
Interesting point someone made about the "Drumcondra Mafia". From personal experience they are not to be trifled with. I would be a "FF natural" in terms of family history etc but I had mixed feelings about Bertie from then on. It's well past time he did the decent thing.
I voted FG last time out in protest at Bertie - 2 years ago I'd never have seen myself as an FG voter, probably Lab, maybe FF, but definitely not FG - I'm glad to see that a few of you on here can see that he's not deserving of holding office, but the answer to the problem lies with FF at this stage - do any of you think they'll do anything?
Talk about a lynch mob, and some of you have the cheek to appeal for natural justice. No charges of any kind have been brought against Bertie. Allegations re.his financial dealings are being fully investigated by a properly constituted tribunal. Until this tribunal exonerates him or finds him guilty of wrong-doing, he is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that would be accorded any other citizen. As the Revenue Commissioners have decided to await the tribunal findings before issuing a tax compliance certificate, there is little Bertie can do to put things right. Eaten Bread is soon forgotten, but nevertheless his contribution to the recent economic development of the country, entitles him to more respect and a fair hearing. Lets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 09:12:02 PM
Talk about a lynch mob, and some of you have the cheek to appeal for natural justice. No charges of any kind have been brought against Bertie. Allegations re.his financial dealings are being fully investigated by a properly constituted tribunal. Until this tribunal exonerates him or finds him guilty of wrong-doing, he is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that would be accorded any other citizen. As the Revenue Commissioners have decided to await the tribunal findings before issuing a tax compliance certificate, there is little Bertie can do to put things right. Eaten Bread is soon forgotten, but nevertheless his contribution to the recent economic development of the country, entitles him to more respect and a fair hearing. Lets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.
The revenue are waiting the tribunal report because it aids their case that he's wilfully evaded tax - you should take a look at the correspondence between Ahern's advisers and the revenue (much of it was published several weeks ago in the Mail on Sunday and the Independent), you could practicallysee the total skeptism with which the revenue were treating Ahern's stories.
I agree that he has contributed to the recent economic development, but that was mainly through his total ineptitude.
And you see no problem with confidential correspondence being published in the press, leaks of documents from tribunals etc. I seriously doubt you would accept these or similar standards being applied to your own financial affairs. Is Bertie not entitled to the same equal and fair treatment as any other citizen.
QuoteShould a Taoiseach be tax compliant?
No, anyone dumb enough to pay all their taxes is too stupid to run a country. And he's not a Taoiseach he's an Taoiseach. Fair play Bertie, keep 'er lit.
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 09:12:02 PM
Talk about a lynch mob, and some of you have the cheek to appeal for natural justice. No charges of any kind have been brought against Bertie. Allegations re.his financial dealings are being fully investigated by a properly constituted tribunal. Until this tribunal exonerates him or finds him guilty of wrong-doing, he is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that would be accorded any other citizen. As the Revenue Commissioners have decided to await the tribunal findings before issuing a tax compliance certificate, there is little Bertie can do to put things right. Eaten Bread is soon forgotten, but nevertheless his contribution to the recent economic development of the country, entitles him to more respect and a fair hearing. Lets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.
The fact that there are no charges brought is of no importance. Should a school teacher consistently accused of child abuse and consistently changing their story of defence be allowed to stay in that position?
Your argument about the economy (which is BS) makes me think you believe he is guilty but it should be overlooked due to other good work. This would be a very sad position to take but expected from FF. FF received less than 50% of the Irish peoples vote. To suggest the condemners where rejected is a spin and to suggest that the people voted only to reject the condemners in a referendum style vote is an insult to the Irish people, but typical of the arrogance of FF.
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 11:03:30 PM
And you see no problem with confidential correspondence being published in the press, leaks of documents from tribunals etc. I seriously doubt you would accept these or similar standards being applied to your own financial [/i] affairs.
This is "shoot the messenger" crap that FF use as a diversionary tactic and it works. Let's remeber that the nothing of the Haughey, Lowry, Burke, Lawlor of Flynn scandals would have been unearthed without the media. Leaked official documents are a problem for us all but all the more so for FF if they disclose their wrong-doing.
Is Bertie not entitled to the same equal and fair treatment as any other citizen.
[/i]
Absoluetly - starting with his tax, and moving on to the rights or wrongs of compromising the highest political office in the land by grubby cash-grabs with questionable origins.
FF were silent when McDowell was leaking documents on Frank Connolly to the Independant news group
QuoteLets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.
The complete shitness of FG and Labour is the reason FF are still in power. They are so bad people (in general) are willing to accept a whiff of sulphur and medicore government rather than hand the controls over to complete incompetents.
Quotedear jason, what a load of crap. as a lifelong ffer i think bertie is a disgrace and should go.
yours etc M kingdom
Dear MK
Glad you think Bertie should go but is that in the national interest or in FF interest?
Jason
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 24, 2008, 09:34:10 AM
QuoteLets not forget that the people leading the chorus of condemnation were recently soundly rejected by the people at the polls.
The complete shitness of FG and Labour is the reason FF are still in power. They are so bad people (in general) are willing to accept a whiff of sulphur and medicore government rather than hand the controls over to complete incompetents.
What are you basing this on? They haven't been in power for years, so saying that is akin to dismissing a footballer as useless that you've never seen play.
They are unproven, inexperienced and naive without doubt. Incompetent? We have no idea.
But's thats up to them to persuade us to vote for them LS, and they did sfa before the election to make them appear a viable, stable alternative. Maybe it was masterful tactics because whoever was in power was going to have to deal with a far different economic outlook, and everyone knew that before the election. Maybe Fine Gael and Labour deliberately appeared apathetic and lackadaisical so that they wouldn't win back power, hoping to win it next time around.
LS - you may be right. It's just that in the election campaign they did nothing to inspire an electorate who wanted an alternative. If they're not capable of getting that right then...
I think the way Kenny reacted to Berties "money troubles" during the election (ignored largely and didn't put the boot in when it could have made a difference) and in recent times (attacking relentlessly - even when the Taoiseach was out of the country representing the State) make him look like a bit of a flip flopper. Maybe AZ is right - maybe they wanted another term to build up their strength so they could be stronger taking over.
I ain't buying that at all.
Kenny was in a no win situation at the time - if he attacked Ahern, who let's not forget was spouting all his "I'm happy to go to the tribunal" garbage (this was before he ran to the áras when he realised he needed a quick election to avoid being summoned before the poll) people would have said that he was interfering with due process and wishing to dish dirt rather than discuss the issues.
Instead he waited until Bertie utterly hung himself with ridiculously contradictory stories and then put the boot in - as he should have in my opinion. Before the election, Bertie's guilt or innocence hung in the balance, whereas now, despite the absence of any verdict, all rational people admit it's beyond reasonable doubt.
Here's the thing though - how do you "inspire" the electorate? Nobody wants to listen to actual issues, they're just mundane. When you do talk about them, nobody will listen unless it's all good news - it's a farce. Ultimately all we vote on is who'll get Mammy the medical card she's not quite entitled to, or who'll get my 55 acres of floodland rezoned as residential.
We support political parties the way Scottish people "support" Celtic or Rangers in this country. I was as guilty of this as anyone up until a few years ago. We buy into what we want to hear, and justify our choices based on irrational "knowledge". This notion that FG are incompetent is just part of that.
The truth is that I actually think this is going to bite so hard that FF are going to get wiped next time around, and that's no good for anyone. If we voted in FG last time around, when the next election came along we would have had the choice between a FG/LAB government that had a track record to base our opinions on and a FF party that would have learned that the electorate will not stand for graft and theft of the nation's resources, so would have cleaned up their act. Instead we'll get the choice between a FF party that considers themselves above the law (and in their own eyes have a mandate for that) and a still unproven FG/Lab combo.
And to be honest, nobody in charge right now is going to make a blind bit of difference - anything we do is re-arranging deckchairs on the Titanic. The next bunch is going to have a lot more responsibility, and we're going to be short changed, one way or another.
FF managed to build such a fear in the electorate that many of them fell for it. FF tactic was - you are all up to your eyes in debt and if we are not in government you will lose your houses, jobs and not be able to send your children to college. This took comletely from the areas where it is plain to see they failed e.g. health care, crime and public services. No one thought to mention that this dangerous scenario is a result of the FF and PD mismanagement. As it turnsout FF got back in and this scenario is still a possibility with no improvement and a bleak future for health care, crime and public services.
QuoteWe support political parties the way Scottish people "support" Celtic or Rangers in this country. I was as guilty of this as anyone up until a few years ago. We buy into what we want to hear, and justify our choices based on irrational "knowledge". This notion that FG are incompetent is just part of that.
`
I reject that completely, personally. Unless that is supposed to be a broad sweeping statement like 'some people like chocolate'.
I have voted for other parties in the past, and voted against FF party lines in referenda etc.
Taking the whole Bertie Ahern thing out of it, (I didn't think Inda was bad in that situation actually), I was more interested in what they were going to do. This silly contract that said very little was a load of hogwash in my opinion. Whenever there was a debate about issues, only Richard Bruton in my opinion came out with any credit. Everyone else's position seemed to be 'well, we're not Fianna Fail'. And Enda Kenny's performance in the leadership debate was the final nail in the election coffin for them.
Obviously it was a generalisation and not meant to everyone. However I do think this (worryingly widely held) view that FG are incompetent is not based on facts, and as such the only plausible theory I can come up with is that people want to vote FF, so in order to clear their conscience when they see what Charlie, Albert and now Bertie have been up to is to blacken the opposition.
The problem is that if you spent the pre-election campaign talking about actual issues and the real differences between parties, it's just impossible have a real debate. Nobody can come out and say they're raising taxes, everyody is in a race to talk about extra spending in every sector, and it's clearly bullshit but no-one ever calls them on it. So we end up having a personality contest.
Incidentally - I didn't think Enda did that badly in the leaders debate. The media reported otherwise, and everyone else seems to think he got wiped, so I guess it was just me.
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 11:03:30 PM
And you see no problem with confidential correspondence being published in the press, leaks of documents from tribunals etc. I seriously doubt you would accept these or similar standards being applied to your own financial affairs. Is Bertie not entitled to the same equal and fair treatment as any other citizen.
Bertie Ahern made a declaration last May that his taxes were in order, the revenue have refused to agree to that statement by refusing to issue him with a tax clearance certificate. On standing for office he knew that he would have to comply with the relevant SIPO legislation, if he wanted his tax affairs to remain private, he should not have stood.
On the other hand, I have not stood for election, nor will I, thus my tax affairs are only subject to public scrutiny if I am found guilty of evasion (over a certain amount, but I can't remember what it currently is).
In addition, Ahern's tax details would not have been with the tribunal if he had been able to come up with believable explanations as to the source of the many large lump lodgements (at least 4 in foreign currencies) into his and Celia Larkin's accounts.
You should also note that even Ahern himself has admitted that the leaks did not come from the tribunal.
On the whole other issue of political parties and their competence, I don't know and I'm certainly no Kenny fan, but would they do worse? AZ maybe puts it best when he says that their incompetence prior to the last election was intentional as everyone could see what was coming. The funny thing is, people talk about their incometence, but my God, we'd had ten years of FF and I'm not denying that a lot of good was done and that our lives are substantially different, but there were massive, massive problems in housing, education, health, transport, long term economic health etc. As was stated at the time, FF got the message across that they would be a safe pair of hands for the economy, we'll see......
Maybe I hadn't thought about the Kenny thing enough. LS is probably right on that. I do take exception at him hammering the Taoiseach when he was out of the country though. It could have and should have waited. And thats out of no love for or defence of Bertie. Maybe I'm old fashioned but bad an all as he is he is still currently our Taoiseach, representing this country abroad. Tear the head off him when he comes home by all means.
I'd also like to reject the Rangers/Celtic analogy - certainly from where I'm coming from. A large % of the time I don't vote the FF way. I am very angry with FG/Lab etc that I felt I had no option but to support FF in the last election (I didn't vote FF in the previous one). That's why I view them as incompetent. I might be wrong, but that's where I'm coming from.
It's a sorry state of affairs all round.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 24, 2008, 12:13:43 PM
This silly contract that said very little was a load of hogwash in my opinion.
That contract was absolutely naff - it might even have been the losing of the election?
Quote
The Secretary of State for Wales, Peter Hain is to resign to clear his name in the controversy over donations to his deputy leadership campaign.
The news came minutes after the Electoral Commission announced it was referring the affair to the Metropolitan Police.
Mr Hain said in a statement: "In view of the Electoral Commission decision today, I will be resigning to clear my name and I will be making a statement shortly."
What chances of Bertie every stepping down over his 'donations'. FF don't believe in standards and ethics - they're there for the money and power and will ride out the storm for as long as they can, no matter the circumstances.
The South Africa thing is fair enough, though personally I just don't think the South Africans would really pass too much remarks on what's going on back in Ireland just because Bertie was around - and it was Bertie who escalated even further with his quite frankly base remarks in response while still in South Africa. It's a subtle one though, I can see both sides there.
Again, I'm not saying the Celtic/Rangers thing applies to anyone in particular, but I do think the phenomenon exists. However.....
Quote from: Magpie SeanieI am very angry with FG/Lab etc that I felt I had no option but to support FF in the last election (I didn't vote FF in the previous one). That's why I view them as incompetent. I might be wrong...
You still don't say why you were angry - what policies did you disagree with? What were FF offering that FG/LAB didn't match? I'm not saying you didn't have reasons, but in the absence of you pointing out why, all I'm left with is that it was a "gut feeling" which was your mind's way of justifying voting for the party you "support".
By all means correct me with your basis for voting as you did, and I'll be the first to acknowledge it. I'm fairly well up on both sides policy manifestos and there were huge holes in both.
Past experience. Better the devil you know. I know what FF do/have done and are likely to do - warts and all. I worry about what the others would do. I have faith in Cowen's ability. I suppose I saw and see Bertie as a lame duck and think Cowen will make a good Taoiseach. It's always somewhat of a gut feeling isn't it?
On the policy front I'll bow to your better knowledge. There were one or two FG policies that I disagreed with though a few FF ones I'm not happy with either. The fact that I don't remember many now tells you that wasn't the major issue. I wasn't angry over specific policies - I was more angry that as AZ said - they just resorted to the old FG stock of "not being FF". I'd hoped for a bit of vision and not a stupid contract stunt. There didn't seem to me to be any new ideas or energy about the alternative govt. Maybe that's my inbuilt prejudices at work but I'd feel I was never so willing to see the other side.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 24, 2008, 01:05:31 PM
Past experience. Better the devil you know. I know what FF do/have done and are likely to do - warts and all. I worry about what the others would do. I have faith in Cowen's ability. I suppose I saw and see Bertie as a lame duck and think Cowen will make a good Taoiseach. It's always somewhat of a gut feeling isn't it?
On the policy front I'll bow to your better knowledge. There were one or two FG policies that I disagreed with though a few FF ones I'm not happy with either. The fact that I don't remember many now tells you that wasn't the major issue. I wasn't angry over specific policies - I was more angry that as AZ said - they just resorted to the old FG stock of "not being FF". I'd hoped for a bit of vision and not a stupid contract stunt. There didn't seem to me to be any new ideas or energy about the alternative govt. Maybe that's my inbuilt prejudices at work but I'd feel I was never so willing to see the other side.
Unfortunately there is always somewhat of a gut feeling element - however I was the opposite. My gut feeling is that FF will never change their ways until we vote them out for their crimes, and the more we vote them back the more they read it as an endorsement of their corrupt methods and members.
I'm sorry, but your first line is all classic "supporter" stuff. I'm not saying you don't feel it genuinely, but none of it is logical. As for the vision, if FG came up with a wonderful policy document with several innovative ideas, FF would have most of them stolen before anybody bothered to report on it. Such is the nature of the Irish media.
Folks, it's nothing to do with policies, and hasn't been for nearly thirty years - it's about being able to manage media coverage and generating believable 'spin'. Because FG/L have been out of power for over 10 years, come election time they won't be able to afford or attract the best media/PR consultants because those folks don't want to lose (their careers depend on it). If they can't attract the media folk to their camp, they can't win an election. Since the election, FF have invested in bringing Gene McKenna (ex Political Editor of Indo) into the fold, I guess with the intention of shoring up the next election (or the one after) for Cowen. What have the 'opposition' done LS?
Quote from: magickingdom on January 22, 2008, 06:43:49 PM
course he should, it a disgrace. no other banana republic would put up with it..
Whatever about Bertie Ireland is certainly not a Banana Republic in the real meaning of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic
The whole"sign the contract" terrible. So was "Bertie's team"!
The title to this thread is delibertae and refers to "a " Taoiseach (meaning ANY Taoiseach).
So leaving aside Bertie's Fantastic Financial Fiddles (with apologies to Roald Dahl) it is a straightforward simple question on a matter of massively important principle and morality.
Quote from: Leo on January 24, 2008, 05:50:26 PM
The title to this thread is delibertae and refers to "a " Taoiseach (meaning ANY Taoiseach).
So leaving aside Bertie's Fantastic Financial Fiddles (with apologies to Roald Dahl) it is a straightforward simple question on a matter of massively important principle and morality.
In that case, yes there is no doubt but that a taoiseach should/must be tax compliant. In the society we have, taxes are collected in order to advance a more equitable society (well, that's the theory), everyone must pay that which the legislators deem they should pay according to their own individual circumstances. The chief of those legislators therefore cannot be seen to evade those responsibilities that the rest of society is expected to comply with.
If nothing else it would hypocritical, akin to, for example, the head of the public sector awarding himself a massive pay rise whilst telling the lower ranks they're getting nothing ::)
Quote from: heganboy on January 24, 2008, 03:04:26 AM
QuoteShould a Taoiseach be tax compliant?
No, anyone dumb enough to pay all their taxes is too stupid to run a country. And he's not a Taoiseach he's an Taoiseach. Fair play Bertie, keep 'er lit.
The really sad thing is that many people see nothing wrong in tax evasion - I presume that those people don't realise that since 1921 approx. Ireland has governed herself, those taxes are the contribution we're all supposed to pay in order that our society can hopefully be better for all, and I know that sounds sanctimonious, but seriously, we can't complain about our poor services on the one hand and yet evade tax on the other.
All this talk about policy differences between FF.,FG and Labour is totally laughable and only serves to feed the grandiose delusions of our politicos. Our interest rates and fiscal policy are controlled by European Central Bank. 80% of our legislation on Law, Environmental policies,and social legislation are dictated by the European Commission. What we are being asked to elect are competent administrators, not legislators. FF. have displayed the competence to get themselves elected, which is a little more than be said for the other shower.
Quote from: Declan on January 24, 2008, 09:50:50 AM
Quotedear jason, what a load of crap. as a lifelong ffer i think bertie is a disgrace and should go.
yours etc M kingdom
Dear MK
Glad you think Bertie should go but is that in the national interest or in FF interest?
Jason
dear jason, i'm sure you realise that the national interests and ff interests sometimes collide, this been one such time. however to answer what you really want to know, if it were a case of it been in the national interests and not ff interests i would still want him to go
mk
Quote from: Star Spangler on January 24, 2008, 01:41:58 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on January 22, 2008, 06:43:49 PM
course he should, it a disgrace. no other banana republic would put up with it..
Whatever about Bertie Ireland is certainly not a Banana Republic in the real meaning of the term. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_republic
:D :D :D
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 24, 2008, 07:04:17 PM
[The really sad thing is that many people see nothing wrong in tax evasion -
Try telling that to Slab Murphy. Obviously the Garda Síochána think it's wrong.
Quote from: Zapatista on January 25, 2008, 07:41:16 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on January 24, 2008, 07:04:17 PM
[The really sad thing is that many people see nothing wrong in tax evasion -
Try telling that to Slab Murphy. Obviously the Garda Síochána think it's wrong.
I reckon the guards see feck all wrong with tax evasion either, they're using it as a means to an end - see Al Capone... Burke, it's how they all go in the end
Quote from: Pangurban on January 23, 2008, 09:12:02 PM
Talk about a lynch mob, and some of you have the cheek to appeal for natural justice. No charges of any kind have been brought against Bertie. Allegations re.his financial dealings are being fully investigated by a properly constituted tribunal. Until this tribunal exonerates him or finds him guilty of wrong-doing, he is entitled to the same presumption of innocence that would be accorded any other citizen. As the Revenue Commissioners have decided to await the tribunal findings before issuing a tax compliance certificate, there is little Bertie can do to put things right.
Pangurban would seem to have problems with that sort of behavior Bogball XV.
On a related topic................
Newstalk this afternoon report that Christopher Cowen, publican and brother of Brian, Tánaiste and Minister for Finance has been ordered to pay the Revenue Commissioners more than 96 thousand euro made up of taxes, interest and penalties.
Mr Cowen is named on the latest tax defaulters list which covers the three months to the end of December 2007.
Mr Cowen has released a statement in which he has said he has never had any business involvement with his brother. No further comment shall be made by the Minister.
Statement by Brian Cowen on the matter:
As Minister for Finance I acknowledge the importance of pursuing those who default on their tax obligations. Without a rigorous system, including appropriate sanctions, those of us who meet our obligations would be let down by the State. The independence of the Revenue Commissioners guarantees that the system is applied in a fair and transparent manner. That is how it should be.
My other reaction is on a personal level. I accept that my position as a public representative means close attention will be paid to my financial affairs. I had and have no involvement whatsoever in my brother's business so it would not be fair to him were any greater media attentions paid to his revenue difficulties on account of my position in Government. I know from him that he gave full co-operation during the Revenue audit and I understand that these matters have now been resolved.
It should also be pointed out that it is the long established practice of the Minister for Finance not to comment on the tax affairs of private individuals. I do not intend to make any further comment on this matter.
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=33122&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0