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Would be interested in the results of this - I've read that one or two on here plan to stop attending Inter-county games and wondered how prevalent this mood is, will this issue have a negative affect on attendances.

I would not be so worried about the number of people interested in inter county matches, as the number of people that don't want to cut the grass, fix the catch wire, sell the tickets, train the U-12s, join the county board etc etc.



Its all those little cogs (ok, some bigger than others) that the GAA rely on to run smoothly. If enough of those people become disenchanted with the whole thing, then there is a real problem.



The players are not the foundations of the GAA - its everyone else pitching in their time voluntarily to organise things around the players that is. I know on first glance that sounds stupid, but you look at all the amateur soccer leagues the length of the country, there isn't a shortage of players, but there is a shortage of good pitches, referees, changing rooms, organised youth structures within every parish etc etc etc.

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 12, 2007, 10:29:08 AM
I would not be so worried about the number of people interested in inter county matches, as the number of people that don't want to cut the grass, fix the catch wire, sell the tickets, train the U-12s, join the county board etc etc.

Honest to god now, you really believe that?

You'd be a very poor clubman to abandon it for such an abstract reason.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 10:41:27 AM
Honest to god now, you really believe that?

You'd be a very poor clubman to abandon it for such an abstract reason.

In your opinion.


We've already seen county boards up in arms over the grants, we've already seen influential volunteers resign, indeed, early indications would tend to back my argument rather than yours.


Yet again, I'll ask you to consider the state of local soccer -


Q: Who maintains the vast majority of the pitches?
A: The district councils do.

Q: What state are the pitches in?
A: Shite.

Q: Are there adequate changing facilities at every pitch?
A: Not on your life.

Q: Are the leagues and cups well organised with a large pool of referees to officiate each and every match?
A: ha ha ha ha

Q: Are there proper structured youth leagues/cups, with each club/team focusing on improving their player's ability through good training techniques over a long time period?
A: Are you taking the piss?



Pretty much each and every one of the above questions relate directly to the non-playing volunteer side of our association, be they maintaining the pitch, selling raffle tickets for that new changing room or to buy a pitch, organising the leagues, or training the youth teams.


You can declare your assumptions on this board until you are blue in the face DMarsden - it won't change the FACT that local historical evidence would point towards another outcome - one that you and every other supporter of the grants refuse to accept as even possible never mind probable.

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 12, 2007, 10:29:08 AM
I would not be so worried about the number of people interested in inter county matches, as the number of people that don't want to cut the grass, fix the catch wire, sell the tickets, train the U-12s, join the county board etc etc.

That doesnt add up at all. There are plenty of people doing the same things for professional sports. I bet they arent bothered about the players getting paid doesnt stop them getting up in the mornings volenteering.*******

I will stick by my county and club, I dont have "Loyal to the Royals" written on my profile just because it rhymes.


***** By the way i am in England at the minute, where every weekend and mid week there are plenty of volenteers doing these things. The state of irish soccer is down to the fact that no-one actually gives a shite about it. If some volenteers walkaway there'll be more to take their place,

Your doomsday scenario is based on the assumption that people are going to stop volunteering to work for their clubs en masse because of this. I don't believe for one minute that volunteer work in clubs will be affected at all and i doubt if any right thinking gaa man believes that either.

I will be attending as many Roscommon games as I can across all the Grades.
I'll leave the negativity to the Nordies *some of whom seem to always need to be moaning about something. ::)

I see the great unwashed of the Mayo GAA had no comment to make on grants at their convention after their moan last week.
I presume the Manager "packages"  via a vis amateur status was pointed out to them along the way somewhere. ;)

*I presume if an Ulster team gets to the All Ireland Final next year there will be no problem getting tickets as so many former followers won't be travelling.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
I will be attending as many Roscommon games as I can across all the Grades.
I'll leave the negativity to the Nordies *some of whom seem to always need to be moaning about something. ::)

I see the great unwashed of the Mayo GAA had no comment to make on grants at their convention after their moan last week.
I presume the Manager "packages"  via a vis amateur status was pointed out to them along the way somewhere. ;)

*I presume if an Ulster team gets to the All Ireland Final next year there will be no problem getting tickets as so many former followers won't be travelling.

Thats just a petty childish post in the hope to wind people up.

Quote from: Bensars on December 12, 2007, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
I will be attending as many Roscommon games as I can across all the Grades.
I'll leave the negativity to the Nordies *some of whom seem to always need to be moaning about something. ::)

I see the great unwashed of the Mayo GAA had no comment to make on grants at their convention after their moan last week.
I presume the Manager "packages"  via a vis amateur status was pointed out to them along the way somewhere. ;)

*I presume if an Ulster team gets to the All Ireland Final next year there will be no problem getting tickets as so many former followers won't be travelling.

Thats just a petty childish post in the hope to wind people up.

Address the serious points raised - like how many of ye wouldnt go to an All Ireland Final if your team got there? How come the Mayo GAA went all silent all of a sudden?
I think most of the apoilt child syndrome is coming from those who are against Inter Co players getting a little token grant - a few hundred pages over several threads all doom and gloom -no one will cut the grass,no one will go to games,no one will paint the posts, I'm finished with the GAA, a Tyrone fundraiser has quit = end of GAA,We'll all be ruined says hanrahan....

GAA  = 123 years not out !!!

I don't think it will affect the hardcore support or local level volunteers on the current scale of payments. But it may affect the current fairweather supports who turn up when things are going well and then put the boot in when things are on the slide.

Ireland is always a nation of begruders, who will see players as been paid, regardless of how much or little. It will be the "Go and see them shower, and line their pockets!!" attitude that may affect some into the game, rather than losing what we already have.

It could also affect the future income of the game at grassroots. Again the attitude may prevail where people say, why should I give XXXX club/county money or buy a ticket when they are getting paid out it. Again, some people will not know/care how much the payments are, but will be aware (and the media will hype it up, use it as a stick to beat underpreforming teams) that the players are getting money for playing the game, call it grants or pay if you will.

The problem isn't now but people outside the games attitude in the future.

Quote from: thejuice on December 12, 2007, 11:09:18 AM
That doesnt add up at all. There are plenty of people doing the same things for professional sports. I bet they aren't bothered about the players getting paid doesn't stop them getting up in the mornings volunteering.*

* By the way i am in England at the minute, where every weekend and mid week there are plenty of volunteers doing these things. The state of irish soccer is down to the fact that no-one actually gives a shite about it. If some volunteers walkaway there'll be more to take their place,

From the state of the clubs I know, I believe your assumption that more will be eager to step into the breach and perform the same tasks as well is extremely dubious.




It is not easy to get fellas to commit to training or managing a squad of youngsters even 1 night a week for 25 weeks of the year, never mind doing the job properly and doing it at least 2/3 times a week.

What if a sizable portion of them recognise they are losing out both from money and time aspects - and they should be recompensed?

Will there be a GMA? Gaelic Managers Association?

Will the government give grants to them?

Or will they get nothing and just quit. Answers on a postcard please.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 11:10:54 AM
Your doomsday scenario is based on the assumption that people are going to stop volunteering to work for their clubs en masse because of this. I don't believe for one minute that volunteer work in clubs will be affected at all and i doubt if any right thinking gaa man believes that either.

More of the arrogance, and based on comparable examples, mis-placed arrogance at that.


I am presenting evidence of this exact scenario in other sports, yet you are continually posting up your blind assumption and qualifying it with the adage that any "right thinking GAA man" would assume it as well.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2007, 11:25:48 AM
GAA  = 123 years not out !!!

GAA = 123 years of amateur sportsmen.... 0 years of semi-professional sportsmen.



I hope we reach 246 years stronger than ever, but I fear a regression is imminent.

Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2007, 11:11:38 AM
I will be attending as many Roscommon games as I can across all the Grades.
I'll leave the negativity to the Nordies *some of whom seem to always need to be moaning about something. ::)

::)

Quote from: bingobus on December 12, 2007, 11:37:34 AM
I don't think it will affect the hardcore support or local level volunteers on the current scale of payments. But it may affect the current fairweather supports who turn up when things are going well and then put the boot in when things are on the slide.

I dont think the fairweather fan will give two hoots about the grants, they go to a handful of high profile matches a year for the craic. Some people feel let down by this and that's their right i suppose, dont really have a problem with the government giving grants to however they want but people have the right to feel otherwise. 

I'm trying to be kind is there a nicer way to say that the scenario you envisage is total bollocks and noone could believe it?

you now claim it'll be more difficult to get club players to commit? are you having a laugh?

listen, you can't really believe this nonsense. At our club agm a short while back, at the height of the grants storm, it wasn't even mentioned. most clubmen don't care. why would they?

you are presenting exact scenarios in other sports which are not the GAA, never had and never will have the same volunteers, support and heritage. they are debunct and not comparable scenarios.

by the way, IC managers already have their own union. i'd have thought a cutting edge grass roots member like yourself would have known that!

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
I'm trying to be kind is there a nicer way to say that the scenario you envisage is total bollocks and noone could believe it?

Yet what circumstantial evidence do you have to back that up?

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
you are presenting exact scenarios in other sports which are not the GAA, never had and never will have the same volunteers, support and heritage. they are debunct and not comparable scenarios.

No, they are not the GAA, but the decline of local rugby in particular worries me - considering the strength of the national side in the past 15 years you would have expected popularity to go up, not down. Yet the club scene (at least here) is in serious decline.


You dismissing the comparisons with nothing to back up your position is the height of either arrogance or stupidity.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
by the way, IC managers already have their own union. i'd have thought a cutting edge grass roots member like yourself would have known that!

Perhaps that is why they are getting paid.

Sure the lads who won't be going are prob the same lads would moaned about paying an extra 10'er

Quote from: tayto on December 12, 2007, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: bingobus on December 12, 2007, 11:37:34 AM
I don't think it will affect the hardcore support or local level volunteers on the current scale of payments. But it may affect the current fairweather supports who turn up when things are going well and then put the boot in when things are on the slide.

I dont think the fairweather fan will give two hoots about the grants, they go to a handful of high profile matches a year for the craic. Some people feel let down by this and that's their right i suppose, dont really have a problem with the government giving grants to however they want but people have the right to feel otherwise. 

Fairweather supporters are often discounted but they bring the extra revenue into any club/county. I know from raising funds/recruiting players at club level that our number one target is always people outside the club. The club members will always come forward with assistance, funds or their children but the hard sell is to those outside the club i.e Fairweather spectators who may have a passing interest in the game (ie attend the big games) but could possibly be attracted more into the club/county fold.

It is their attitudes that can be easily swayed by media or others anti-GAA. They could be lost at grassroots level

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 12, 2007, 12:11:15 PM

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
I'm trying to be kind is there a nicer way to say that the scenario you envisage is total bollocks and noone could believe it?

Yet what circumstantial evidence do you have to back that up?

eh, you are aware that i'm not envisaging any scenario? i'm saying things will not change. what evidence would you like?

you are the only one dreaming up developments

Taken by our poll a 30 % drop in attendances next year should start alarm bells ringing. 

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
eh, you are aware that i'm not envisaging any scenario? i'm saying things will not change. what evidence would you like?

Your envisaging a fundamental change to the relationship between county player and clubman/club player/county board/etc/etc not making a change.


There is at least one change already made to the scenario - its in my first sentence. The question is how many more will their be in tandem with that change.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:23:24 PM
eh, you are aware that i'm not envisaging any scenario? i'm saying things will not change. what evidence would you like?

you are the only one dreaming up developments

In addition to the previous response, I work with a guy plays junior rugby, played for junior ulster etc, and we had a chin wag over this.


There are a load of little things he said I would never have considered.

For instance, he had to pay £110 last year for insurance, and even then that insurance only covers the most serious of injuries (i.e. a broken leg is NOT covered), most of the other members of his club had to take out separate personal insurance. It used to be that revenues from the 'big' games, i.e. ulster or international matches would filter down through to the grass roots, offsetting somewhat things like insurance. At the start, a proportion of it still did, but now its almost entirely gone on players wages.


I am virtually 100% certain that the GAA will pay for these grants one way or another - the government will give in one hand, and take with the other. Anyone that thinks otherwise is ignorant/blindly bias or stupid (delete as applicable). I also firmly believe these grants will start to snowball in value.  Eventually it will reach a point where the revenue from our big games is not filtering down to help build pitches or changing rooms (through GAA grants), or part fund insurance schemes, or offset coaching lessons etc etc.


All evidence of previous organisations going from amateur to semi-professional (and eventually it becomes professional) supports this. Grant supporters are simply burying their heads in the sand when this issue is raised.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
listen, you can't really believe this nonsense. At our club agm a short while back, at the height of the grants storm, it wasn't even mentioned. most clubmen don't care. why would they?

you are presenting exact scenarios in other sports which are not the GAA, never had and never will have the same volunteers, support and heritage. they are debunct and not comparable scenarios.

There was real anger at our AGM about the way this has been handled by the top brass and our ececutive were motioned to make representations at county level to make these views heard. I only hope many other clubs will do the same

will go when possible
but I'll have great craic shouting at various players if they make mistakes - more so the high profile ones

'ya useless hoor *** - is that what we pay ya for'
'ya think you could score an easy point like that for the money yer earning'
etc etc etc

;) :D

Quote from: rrhf on December 12, 2007, 12:30:50 PM
Taken by our poll a 30 % drop in attendances next year should start alarm bells ringing. 

Its never going to happen.

I was against it. But at the end of the day i was going to watch county football not  individuals.

At the end of the day if they need the money that badly, let them have it. However dont come crying when the crowd goes against players when playing badly, the claim that they are amatuer players no longer washes

sack him,
fine him a weeks wages

...it will be some laugh at the start at least.... ;)

Quote from: DMarsden on December 12, 2007, 12:02:28 PM
listen, you can't really believe this nonsense. At our club agm a short while back, at the height of the grants storm, it wasn't even mentioned. most clubmen don't care. why would they?

I can't really believe the nonsense you post... at least your consistent though.

How on earth can you say most clubmen don't care?


I can say most do care, and point to the sample poll on this board as evidence.


You, as usual, make a statement with the square root of f__k all to back it up.

Imagine the exposes in the Irish Star next year.   They will take the gloves off now.  8)"Spit roast in Carlow" 8)

I voted no, as I will still go to the games, but am strongly anti grant, no doubt someone will point out that its someway hypocritical  ::)

Paying at the gate to see your county puts money into the GAA which filters to the clubs, not the players pockets.

Although dissapointed in whats going on, I dont think staying away will do any good.

I do however understand why some people will be a bit more apathetic towards the intercounty teams.

Quote from: tram on December 12, 2007, 02:10:51 PM
Well I'm deciding to make my own stand and not attend any Tyrone senior football games for the foreseeable future, the recent scenario putting a cap on the lid on how I've felt about certain players on the current team after what happened in 2006 after being beaten by Laois and my subsequent disinterest in the team since then, was at only one county match last year, the Ulster final and that was more to see the minors really. The reality is though that Bensars is correct, there is unlikely to be a significant drop in attendances for it to be noticeable; but the players whom then perform on the field better be ready to accept certain attitudes from supporters that goes along with being paid sportsmen.

Oh and if they were fortunate enough to be in Croke Park for the All-Ireland SFC final, no, I won't be getting a ticket, unless the minors are there.

But sure in all fairness you are not a real Tyrone or indeed a GAA supporter. So ye lost to Laois - hardly the end of the world.. Nothing would keep me away from Roscommon games next year and I have a feeling ye Tyrone people will have more to shout about than us

I'd be interested to hear if he goes to club games before coming out and saying he aint a real GAA supporter.

Pretty shallow reasons to stop going to see your county though.

When I say shallow reason, I mean due to the lack of success, not the grants issue.

I voted yes, I won't be attending a county game for the foreseeable future. 

fight fight fight fight fight!!!

Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 12, 2007, 01:21:39 PM
will go when possible
but I'll have great craic shouting at various players if they make mistakes - more so the high profile ones

'ya useless hoor *** - is that what we pay ya for'
'ya think you could score an easy point like that for the money yer earning'
etc etc etc

;) :D

Yea, that'll be good craic alright lynchboy. God help any Mayo player who puts it wide now!  :D

I don't think attendances will be affected at all.

Quote from: tram on December 12, 2007, 05:59:33 PM

Quote from: heineken_on_tap on December 12, 2007, 05:37:28 PM

Quote from: tram on December 12, 2007, 02:10:51 PM
Well I'm deciding to make my own stand and not attend any Tyrone senior football games for the foreseeable future, the recent scenario putting a cap on the lid on how I've felt about certain players on the current team after what happened in 2006 after being beaten by Laois and my subsequent disinterest in the team since then, was at only one county match last year, the Ulster final and that was more to see the minors really. The reality is though that Bensars is correct, there is unlikely to be a significant drop in attendances for it to be noticeable; but the players whom then perform on the field better be ready to accept certain attitudes from supporters that goes along with being paid sportsmen.

Oh and if they were fortunate enough to be in Croke Park for the All-Ireland SFC final, no, I won't be getting a ticket, unless the minors are there.

But sure in all fairness you are not a real Tyrone or indeed a GAA supporter. So ye lost to Laois - hardly the end of the world.. Nothing would keep me away from Roscommon games next year and I have a feeling ye Tyrone people will have more to shout about than us

I'm sorry but who the f**k are you to come out with such a sweeping generalisation of a "real" supporter?

Maybe your right but I dont think anyone who considers themselves a real supporter would lose interest in their team after a loss to Laois(a decent side) , ONLY bother to go to the Ulster final(happened before the grants issue)  and not make the effort to look for a ticket IF their team  reached the All -Ireland final next year. I dont totally agree with the grants either but I would never stop supporting my club or county.

You wouldnt be much of a supporter if you didnt support your county over this. From what I can see people in this country always try to find excuses for not attending matches anyway - the weather, the choice of venue, the time, disagree with certain players getting picked etc. For the sake of 20 or 30 quid a week this grant arguement has been blown out of all proportion. Like it or lump it the county players devote huge time to the games and their diet etc and hence the fact that county games are played at a faster pace than club games. County players are also singled out for much more individual abuse from the public than club players -look at the abuse McMenamin for example gets on here. At a time when players are being lost to other sports I think I small benefit like this cant do any harm for rewarding the players whop stick with the games. The county players also help generate huge revenue for the gaa and every time they go on the pitch are subject to much greater scrutiny from tv and the terraces than the average club player. Theres club players who have done a lot worse than McMenamin but dont be called a tr**p regularly. Finally due to the distances involved county players regularly have to leave work early on a Friday etc which can cause problems with their employers and leaves them having to work up time etc. Im not in favour of professionalism or anything like that and was certainly against the strike but cant see anything wrong with the players getting a small reward like this to reflect their efforts and extra pressure they can be put under.

Tram, I was actually defending you in that I dont think you should be titled "not a real GAA supporter" solely based on not going to see your county.
I know several "real" GAA men who work endlessly for their club but rarely go to county games, these men are more "real GAA fans" than guys who do nothing but turn up for intercounty games.
I would regard you, based on what you have done, as much more of a "real GAA fan" than many people who attend all county games and do feck all at club level.
I did say that lack of success of your county team isnt a great reason for stopping going, but never once suggested you werent a "real GAA fan".
This was Heineken on Tap.

I also understand if you didnt go to games because of the grants, totally understand.

Regarding your past persona, you have me confused, I never once suggested I knew who you were in the past and didnt even suspect you were here before it until your post.

I think you might have misread my post or else confused mine with someone elses, the only point of my last post was to say its not right to say you arent a real GAA supported based on your reasons for not attending county games as we had no idea how much effort you may put in at club level.

If theres something in particular I said to give any other impression let me know and I'll edit it as I genuinely didnt mean anything else.

No probs, its just the whole post was started with HHNB.
Do what you like county wise, its what you do at club level that makes you a GAA man.

Voted No. I'm not in favour of the grants but I really can't see it stopping me supporting Armagh. Much as I think any form of professionalism would be hugely determental to the GAA, I support other professional sports so it'd be a bit hypocritical to stop supporting my county team over the grants.

I've decided not to attend any county matches for now. Part of the appeal to me was supporting your team knowing they were playing for the love of the jersey. Thats gone now and i am angry and sad that the GPA has brought us this. Its so devisive and all for the sake of 1500 euro. As if Dessie is going to stop at that. We are heading towards a situation where Counties who can pay the biggest "grants" will have the pick of the land. These type of sport grants should only be paid to those that need them,to athletes that need financial assistance to help them compete at the highest level. Our county players certainly dont need them. 1500 euro is not going to improve standard of play or make them better players.            

I'll not be home for any of the Fermanagh games but I would still attend. I really am still divided on the whole issue. Tom Brewster came out in the local press a few months ago and said that he had lost a weeks wages after spending time in an ice chamber, trying to get fit. He received no financial support from the GAA. That cannot be right? But on the other hand why is the county player to be favoured over a selfless volunteer working at the club all year round? Surely there is a middle ground somewhere?

Probably not. It's the proverbial cutting off your nose to spite your face. I still expect I'll get enjoyment from the County team, and despite the fact there are a couple of mercenaries playing, I'd like to think the vast majority are still there for love of the game.

QuoteI've decided not to attend any county matches for now.

As does 70%  of the population in December/January.....

Quote from: ONeill on December 12, 2007, 11:51:55 PM

QuoteI've decided not to attend any county matches for now.

As does 70%  of the population in December/January.....

Yeah, maybe I should have stated championship games. There are a few that have stated that they won't be attending for the foreseeable future, how long is that I wonder? It's easier to be principled in Feburary than it is in August and your County is making it to quarters or the semis and the whole county is above in Dublin for the weekend drinking porter and shaggin young ones from Ulster

Well anyone feel free to take note of me saying I won't be attending IC games and feel free to remind me about it at any time.

Quote from: inisceithleann on December 12, 2007, 11:18:56 PM
Tom Brewster came out in the local press a few months ago and said that he had lost a weeks wages after spending time in an ice chamber, trying to get fit. He received no financial support from the GAA. That cannot be right?

What if he were to take the week off and spend it training full time "to get fit"?

Should the GAA support him financially then?


Tom Brewster had a decision to make, no-one forced him to make the call he did.




The problem is the stupid levels of time commitment players are being asked to make. The GAA need to act to scale that back rather than give out money (which will only exacerbate the problem).



That Armagh side were one of the first to raise the bar on preparation, be it training or training 'camps' or whatever... if they were not willing to sustain that commitment, then its up to them to reduce it. McGeeney and co made the bed - now they don't want to lie on it.

QuoteQuote from: reddgnhand on December 12, 2007, 11:17:13 PM
I've decided not to attend any county matches for now. Part of the appeal to me was supporting your team knowing they were playing for the love of the jersey. Thats gone now and i am angry and sad that the GPA has brought us this. Its so devisive and all for the sake of 1500 euro.            


Absolute crap. Do you think that the likes of Benny Coulter, Darragh O`Se or Sean Cavanagh are going to be arriving at games now in Ferraris and Lamborginis ? Do you for one minute believe that any of our county players are going to change their attitude to the game because of €1500. It is a paltry amount of money, it wouldnt take you away for a decent weekend in Dublin FFS. Nothing is going to change. If we were talking about a huge sum of money I could maybe see everyones point of view, but this is a tiny amount of money, it wouldnt make up for the amount of time not spent at home with the wife/girlfriend or kids and it isnt going to make our players into professionals.
The McKenna Cup starts in a few weeks time. I could probably name most of the Down supporters that will be there. If I dont know them by name, I would know them to see. Those people, like the players are there for the love of their county and the game. Its the same in every county. Come the championship the hangers on suddenly realise that the football season has started. If you are going to stop attending games because of this I dont think you should be there in the first place. Do you really begrudge your county player, who has been training all through the winter nights while you were sitting here on your computer or watching the news, a mesely €1500 ?
This is Government money, from our taxes, from those of us who pay income tax of 40%, from VAT on everyday items, from the toll bridges, from cigarettes and alcohol. It isnt from the miserable few quid that you spend at the gate. If your county get to the All Ireland final this year, you will be the first in line for a ticket and your silly little protest will be long forgotten.
RANT OVER

BUY THIS MAN A PINT!!
The greatest bit of sense written on the board since all these threads started. I agree 100%.
Some people have been completely unable to keep things in context and have talked themselves into a doomsday scenario. I actually think people would be embarressed by what they've written on these threads if they were to look back in a few months time.

Quote from: Tubberman on December 13, 2007, 11:37:24 AM

QuoteQuote from: reddgnhand on December 12, 2007, 11:17:13 PM
I've decided not to attend any county matches for now. Part of the appeal to me was supporting your team knowing they were playing for the love of the jersey. Thats gone now and i am angry and sad that the GPA has brought us this. Its so devisive and all for the sake of 1500 euro.            


Absolute crap. Do you think that the likes of Benny Coulter, Darragh O`Se or Sean Cavanagh are going to be arriving at games now in Ferraris and Lamborginis ? Do you for one minute believe that any of our county players are going to change their attitude to the game because of €1500. It is a paltry amount of money, it wouldnt take you away for a decent weekend in Dublin FFS. Nothing is going to change. If we were talking about a huge sum of money I could maybe see everyones point of view, but this is a tiny amount of money, it wouldnt make up for the amount of time not spent at home with the wife/girlfriend or kids and it isnt going to make our players into professionals.
The McKenna Cup starts in a few weeks time. I could probably name most of the Down supporters that will be there. If I dont know them by name, I would know them to see. Those people, like the players are there for the love of their county and the game. Its the same in every county. Come the championship the hangers on suddenly realise that the football season has started. If you are going to stop attending games because of this I dont think you should be there in the first place. Do you really begrudge your county player, who has been training all through the winter nights while you were sitting here on your computer or watching the news, a mesely €1500 ?
This is Government money, from our taxes, from those of us who pay income tax of 40%, from VAT on everyday items, from the toll bridges, from cigarettes and alcohol. It isnt from the miserable few quid that you spend at the gate. If your county get to the All Ireland final this year, you will be the first in line for a ticket and your silly little protest will be long forgotten.
RANT OVER

BUY THIS MAN A PINT!!
The greatest bit of sense written on the board since all these threads started. I agree 100%.
Some people have been completely unable to keep things in context and have talked themselves into a doomsday scenario. I actually think people would be embarressed by what they've written on these threads if they were to look back in a few months time.

Would have to agree with all the above - attendances wont be affected at all . Once the action starts again and the gates open, i cant too many people staying away.

il be there  for the McKenna Cup games in January under lights in Breffini. :)

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 12, 2007, 10:29:08 AM
I would not be so worried about the number of people interested in inter county matches, as the number of people that don't want to cut the grass, fix the catch wire, sell the tickets, train the U-12s, join the county board etc etc.

Its all those little cogs (ok, some bigger than others) that the GAA rely on to run smoothly. If enough of those people become disenchanted with the whole thing, then there is a real problem.

The players are not the foundations of the GAA - its everyone else pitching in their time voluntarily to organise things around the players that is. I know on first glance that sounds stupid, but you look at all the amateur soccer leagues the length of the country, there isn't a shortage of players, but there is a shortage of good pitches, referees, changing rooms, organised youth structures within every parish etc etc etc.

County and Club aren't really comparable, and why would a clubman desert his club because of what's going on at county level? if the doomsday scenario, that soooo many are trying to paint, did come to pass :D :D surely people would take a bigger interest in their clubs!!

Hopefully the 30odd% that don't intend to go to county football next year will also stop polluting this board and return to the local discussion board ;)

Actually Fivetimes its not from your taxes unless your an exile in the republic.  Its from my taxes and I do object to it.  Its the thin end of the wedge and was not properly discussed at club level like the changes to rule 42 etc. The ramifications and problems it will cause are only now begining to dawn on people and if you want to see the future just look at club rugby and what has happened to it over the last ten years.

I will attend intercounty games just to hear the comments next time Benny or Steevie or Seanie or who ever makes a hames of a simple pass or point!

And don't you just love the way the President now says its all the governments fault for landing them with a mess!!  Its like cocaine - they could have said thanks but no thanks

Quoteif you want to see the future just look at club rugby and what has happened to it over the last ten years.

Can you explain how the current situation is going to impact the GAA clubs in the same way rugby has been affected?
There has been NO change made to the club or inter-county structure. The ONLY difference is the inter-county players get an annual grant of a max of €2500 (just over €200 a month).
So how is this the ruination of the club???

Quote from: zoyler on December 13, 2007, 12:18:00 PM

I will attend intercounty games just to hear the comments next time Benny or Steevie or Seanie or who ever makes a hames of a simple pass or point!

Seems to me to be a bizzare reason to go to the the games Zoylar but every man to himself I suppose. Players have always got grief after making silly mistakes - grant or no grant, that wont change. I wouldnt begrudge any player a paltry sum of money such as €1500

QuoteHopefully the 30odd% that don't intend to go to county football next year

Where did people say that? Stop talking rubbish.

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2007, 01:48:38 PM

QuoteHopefully the 30odd% that don't intend to go to county football next year

Where did people say that? Stop talking rubbish.

Its from the poll above Seanie, but I dont know how 'accurate' it really is

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2007, 01:48:38 PM

QuoteHopefully the 30odd% that don't intend to go to county football next year

Where did people say that? Stop talking rubbish.

Eh, the results of this poll ;) [Edited by Mod3 - Personal Abuse]

Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2007, 12:15:03 PM
County and Club aren't really comparable, and why would a clubman desert his club because of what's going on at county level?

Oh I dunno... I suppose it would be the blatantly obvious inference being made that he/she feels they should be getting compensation for their commitment too.

Quote from: Tubberman on December 13, 2007, 12:23:04 PM
Can you explain how the current situation is going to impact the GAA clubs in the same way rugby has been affected?

There has been NO change made to the club or inter-county structure.

The ONLY difference is the inter-county players get an annual grant of a max of €2500 (just over €200 a month).
So how is this the ruination of the club???

A few questions you should ask yourself.


1. Do you actually think county board members are going to give their time as freely now that others are being recompensed and they aren't? (are you aware of the time commitments county board members have to make?)

2. Do you think the effects of (1) are not going to affect the clubs?

3. Do you actually think that the government are going to pay this money from their own coffers?
a) if yes (which will not be the case IMO)- do you think that money should be better spent on hospitals etc?
b) if no - since that money is being lifted from the grants the govt give to the GAA for infrastructure, or from the tax breaks, its money that won't be spent on coaching/stadia/pitches/offsetting insurance etc.

4. Are you so naive as to think these "grants" are going to remain at €2500 a year?

5. Do you think the top players are not going to face extra temptation to transfer to the better counties where the prospects of getting more money are better? Or conversely, a poor hurler by Kilkenny's standards could transfer to... say Down - he'll get a grant then. A better example would have been Dublin to Meath I suppose. That will affect clubs too.

6. Why should people bother raising money for things like Club Down, we've already seen one high profile resignation from Club Tyrone. As you may or may not know Club Tyrone helps with much more than just the county teams, coaching and games development and pitch improvements receive funding raised through the Club Tyrone initiative. Do you think the tarring of things like Club Tyrone with paid players really won't reduce the support for them, and by proxy reduce the support clubs receive for coaching and infrastructure?

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2007, 02:30:58 PM
A few questions you should ask yourself.


1. Do you actually think county board members are going to give their time as freely now that others are being recompensed and they aren't? (are you aware of the time commitments county board members have to make?)

2. Do you think the effects of (1) are not going to affect the clubs?

3. Do you actually think that the government are going to pay this money from their own coffers?
a) if yes (which will not be the case IMO)- do you think that money should be better spent on hospitals etc?
b) if no - since that money is being lifted from the grants the govt give to the GAA for infrastructure, or from the tax breaks, its money that won't be spent on coaching/stadia/pitches/offsetting insurance etc.

4. Are you so naive as to think these "grants" are going to remain at €2500 a year?

5. Do you think the top players are not going to face extra temptation to transfer to the better counties where the prospects of getting more money are better? Or conversely, a poor hurler by Kilkenny's standards could transfer to... say Down - he'll get a grant then. A better example would have been Dublin to Meath I suppose. That will affect clubs too.

6. Why should people bother raising money for things like Club Down, we've already seen one high profile resignation from Club Tyrone. As you may or may not know Club Tyrone helps with much more than just the county teams, coaching and games development and pitch improvements receive funding raised through the Club Tyrone initiative. Do you think the tarring of things like Club Tyrone with paid players really won't reduce the support for them, and by proxy reduce the support clubs receive for coaching and infrastructure?

1. Yes. Why would county board officials lay claim to a government grant scheme for athltes?

2. not a chance in hell. most club members don't give a fiddlers and don't begrudge their county lads the grant.

3. Yes. of course it would be better spent on hospitals but if it weren't grant aid it would not be used for that. if you think that's how government works you're deluded.

b is total nonsense by the way. do your research before posting up lazy scare stories.

4. Maybe the government will adjust them? who knows. inflation is always a factor.

5. No chance. you think this paltry amount would be enough to lure a charlie carter figure to travel those distances for training. the only real incentive out there is the possibility of playing at inter county level and that exists irrespective. certainly that amount of money ain't gonna be a deciding factor.

6. That will not happen in the medium term. that is a doomsday prediction. Any gael who raises funds for facilities, welfare and coaching initiatives will recognise that the government paying IC players grants will neither enhance nor diminish the lot of the GAA.

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2007, 02:15:26 PM

Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2007, 12:15:03 PM
County and Club aren't really comparable, and why would a clubman desert his club because of what's going on at county level?

Oh I dunno... I suppose it would be the blatantly obvious inference being made that he/she feels they should be getting compensation for their commitment too.

Not very dedicated clubmen then.

I haven't been able to post the last few days, so first off thank you for reolying to my question Tram (still the only anti-GPA poster to do so). But I'm afraid your scenario, with respect, is so unrealistic as to hardly warrant debate. RadioGAAGAA your last post is typical of many of the anti-gpa posters, it's almost dripping with paranoia.

QuoteDo you actually think county board members are going to give their time as freely now that others are being recompensed and they aren't?

QuoteDo you actually think that the government are going to pay this money from their own coffers?
a) if yes (which will not be the case IMO)- do you think that money should be better spent on hospitals etc?
b) if no - since that money is being lifted from the grants the govt give to the GAA for infrastructure, or from the tax breaks, its money that won't be spent on coaching/stadia/pitches/offsetting insurance etc.

QuoteAre you so naive as to think these "grants" are going to remain at €2500 a year?

QuoteDo you think the top players are not going to face extra temptation to transfer to the better counties where the prospects of getting more money are better? Or conversely, a poor hurler by Kilkenny's standards could transfer to... say Down - he'll get a grant then. A better example would have been Dublin to Meath I suppose.

If you go through that list of quotes above according to you, club and county administrators will walk away, the health service or GAA sporting infrastructure will suffer, the grants are sure to escalate, and the pick of the bunch players will leave their clubs and travel half way around the country to make at max €2500. None of these things are in anyway realistic, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if next January when I start back up the U-8 and 10 training one of the coaches told me he wouldn't be involved because IC players were getting grants.

Thats it  lads - just keep ignoring what has happened to club Rugby - it'll never happen to us - were different - sure our players alll do it just for the love of the game and sure a wedge dosn't have a thin edge.

Come back and see what the set up is like in 5/10 years wwhen this poison has seeped through the system.

QuoteQuote from: Tubberman on Today at 12:23:04 PM
Can you explain how the current situation is going to impact the GAA clubs in the same way rugby has been affected?

There has been NO change made to the club or inter-county structure.

The ONLY difference is the inter-county players get an annual grant of a max of €2500 (just over €200 a month).
So how is this the ruination of the club???


A few questions you should ask yourself.


1. Do you actually think county board members are going to give their time as freely now that others are being recompensed and they aren't? (are you aware of the time commitments county board members have to make?)

2. Do you think the effects of (1) are not going to affect the clubs?

3. Do you actually think that the government are going to pay this money from their own coffers?
a) if yes (which will not be the case IMO)- do you think that money should be better spent on hospitals etc?
b) if no - since that money is being lifted from the grants the govt give to the GAA for infrastructure, or from the tax breaks, its money that won't be spent on coaching/stadia/pitches/offsetting insurance etc.

4. Are you so naive as to think these "grants" are going to remain at €2500 a year?

5. Do you think the top players are not going to face extra temptation to transfer to the better counties where the prospects of getting more money are better? Or conversely, a poor hurler by Kilkenny's standards could transfer to... say Down - he'll get a grant then. A better example would have been Dublin to Meath I suppose. That will affect clubs too.

6. Why should people bother raising money for things like Club Down, we've already seen one high profile resignation from Club Tyrone. As you may or may not know Club Tyrone helps with much more than just the county teams, coaching and games development and pitch improvements receive funding raised through the Club Tyrone initiative. Do you think the tarring of things like Club Tyrone with paid players really won't reduce the support for them, and by proxy reduce the support clubs receive for coaching and infrastructure?

1. I see no reason why not. County board members have continued to work away despite payments to managers. And many co board officials are paid now anyway.

2. Well, seeing as I don't think (1) is going to be an issue, the answer is no.

3. Of course it's going to be from the government's coffers. Unless Bertie organises a whip-around  ;)
   a) Bit of a pathetic question. Sure if you use that logic, there wouldn't be investment in any area other than health. As an aside, the shambles of a health system is not because of a lack of money being thrown at it.
  b) The governemt have given a commitment that the funding does not affect GAA infrastructure grants. It's fair to throw your eyes up at that though. But then, we never have a fixed GAA budget anyway so we never know what the GAA is going to get. It's an impossible question to answer.

4. Well they're going to remain at that level for 3 years anyway - they are the terms of the deal. It's up to the govt and the GPA to negotiate after that point. I presume the point you're trying to make is that it could escalate to huge sums of money that would entice top players from weaker counties to move to bigger counties etc. But I can't see that happening! Do you really think the govt are going to effecively pay salaries to 2000 footballers and hurlers!?

5. No I don't. Any temptation to move county is already there anyway - there are plenty of people tempting top players 'under the counter'. So a couple of grand isn't going to change it.

6. Why wouldn't they?? I presume the main reasons they raise money for their county teams is out of pride of place and to see their county teams prepared as well as possible, so they have the best chance of success. I don't see why the grants would change that desire. And if anything, you could argue the grant will help player's preparation - money to spend on their dietary requirements etc...

This rugby comparison has been trotted out here on a few occasions, but IMO there is no real comparison. They are very different situations and very different sporting make ups. But before going there, Zoyler you are the latest thin edge of the wedge man, now anyone can come on here and claim this, that, or the other thing will happen at some point in the future. In your opinion do you think the GAA are going to start paying a living wage to players in the future? If so how do see this coming to be?
                 Now I'm not much of a rugby man, but in my home town the rugby club has gone in and out of existence for decades. But it is currently doing quite well for itself, and there is a notable increase in rugby jerseys floating around the town. The point I'm making is that AIL rugby has taken a hit because it has been replaced as the top level of rugby in Ireland but lower down many junior clubs are doing quite well. So saying professionalism has destroyed club rugby is an exaggeration. More importantly rugby was forced to go completely professional by international influences. We don't have that, so players, regardless of their number or quality, can't force the GAA to go professional, it can only happen if a majority want it to happen.

Quote from: zoyler on December 13, 2007, 03:42:09 PM
Thats it  lads - just keep ignoring what has happened to club Rugby - it'll never happen to us - were different - sure our players alll do it just for the love of the game and sure a wedge dosn't have a thin edge.

Come back and see what the set up is like in 5/10 years wwhen this poison has seeped through the system.

I know - the evidence is staring them in the face yet they are burying their heads in the sand.

...might even start supporting tyrone and cork , and go to the games and shout abuse at their players when they are losing saying that they are not worth the money they get and I want my taxes back !

'we want a rebate' !
;) :D

QuoteEh, the results of this poll  knob.

I thought the poll said "Will the paying of grants affect your attendance at Inter-County games" not "Do you intend to go to county football next year". But you probably can't see the difference between the two statements.

Quote from: bennydorano on December 13, 2007, 03:01:36 PM
Not very dedicated clubmen then.

You could of course, level the very same accusation at the county players - they aren't very dedicated are they?

Rugby comparisons are not sensible. rugby clubs had to raise revenue to pay player salaries. no such thing is happening in the gaa, nor ever will.

QuoteI know - the evidence is staring them in the face yet they are burying their heads in the sand.

Yep that's right lads we have our heads in the sand, thin edge of the wedge, look at what happened to rugby, lads will travel 4hr round trips 3 times a week for €2K a year. 95% of your points are about what will happen (IYO) in the future, with nothing to back it up and little engagement on opposing points made to ye. Just repeating the mantra that the sky will fall in on the GAA.

Quote from: Tubberman on December 13, 2007, 03:57:11 PM
1. I see no reason why not. County board members have continued to work away despite payments to managers. And many co board officials are paid now anyway.

2. Well, seeing as I don't think (1) is going to be an issue, the answer is no.

3. Of course it's going to be from the government's coffers. Unless Bertie organises a whip-around  ;)
    a) Bit of a pathetic question. Sure if you use that logic, there wouldn't be investment in any area other than health. As an aside, the shambles of a health system is not because of a lack of money being thrown at it.
   b) The governemt have given a commitment that the funding does not affect GAA infrastructure grants. It's fair to throw your eyes up at that though. But then, we never have a fixed GAA budget anyway so we never know what the GAA is going to get. It's an impossible question to answer.

4. Well they're going to remain at that level for 3 years anyway - they are the terms of the deal. It's up to the govt and the GPA to negotiate after that point. I presume the point you're trying to make is that it could escalate to huge sums of money that would entice top players from weaker counties to move to bigger counties etc. But I can't see that happening! Do you really think the govt are going to effecively pay salaries to 2000 footballers and hurlers!?

5. No I don't. Any temptation to move county is already there anyway - there are plenty of people tempting top players 'under the counter'. So a couple of grand isn't going to change it.

6. Why wouldn't they?? I presume the main reasons they raise money for their county teams is out of pride of place and to see their county teams prepared as well as possible, so they have the best chance of success. I don't see why the grants would change that desire. And if anything, you could argue the grant will help player's preparation - money to spend on their dietary requirements etc...

1. County boards have paid the managers themselves, but many are dead set against the grants. Somewhat hypocritical I know, but that doesn't change the attitude of many county boards to these grants.

2. OK, your opinion, might be right, probably wrong (IMO).

3. PMSL - are you grant supporters really that wet behind the ears? DMarsden and now you both think that the government will give the extra money to the GAA and won't re-arrange the tax breaks etc to make it revenue neutral (from their perspective) - I suppose it is indicative of the ignorance shown in the pro-grant arguments really.

I can assure you that WILL NOT BE THE CASE, the GAA will be paying for these grants in otherwise unreceived money.

Did you miss the etc behind hospitals?


4. The GAA have effectively been suckered into paying these 'grants' already, with increases in the wage, they will have to stump up more.


5. I disagree.


6. Hmmm.... I'll bet support for such schemes disintegrates unless it is made clear no money whatsoever is going to the county panel.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 04:31:19 PM
no such thing is happening in the gaa, nor ever will.

You keep telling yourself that and it might really be the case....




actually, no, no, no... it won't.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 04:37:01 PM
Yep that's right lads we have our heads in the sand, thin edge of the wedge, look at what happened to rugby, lads will travel 4hr round trips 3 times a week for €2K a year. 95% of your points are about what will happen (IYO) in the future, with nothing to back it up and little engagement on opposing points made to ye. Just repeating the mantra that the sky will fall in on the GAA.

Ha - you stupidly assume that the 2K will stay at 2K.



I am using circumstantial evidence of both local rugby and local soccer - you (and the other pro grants supporters) are using hot air to back your argument.



Repeating ad nauseum that "the GAA are different", and "it won't happen to us" is not an argument based on anything but your own pre-conceived notions.

Ok radio, its not fair us all laughing at you at the same time. we'll give you a chance to reason your fantasy land. answer me this...

how will a scenario develop where counties must find extra revenue streams in order to meet the requirements of player salaries?

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 04:47:52 PM
how will a scenario develop where counties must find extra revenue streams in order to meet the requirements of player salaries?

Its pretty obvious to anyone that thinks about it that the money for the players will come from central.

Obviously that means central will not be able to divvy out the same amount of money to the provinces then the counties, which will (not) feed right down to the clubs.



You may or may not be aware that pretty much all the county boards are only kept viable through the funding handed down from above at present. Limit or remove that funding, and the counties will have to scale back their activities.

QuoteHa - you stupidly assume that the 2K will stay at 2K.



I am using circumstantial evidence of both local rugby and local soccer - you (and the other pro grants supporters) are using hot air to back your argument.



Repeating ad nauseum that "the GAA are different", and "it won't happen to us" is not an argument based on anything but your own pre-conceived notions.

Ok RGAAGAA since we are all naive, stupid and ignorant can you explain to us in layman's terms why the government will increase the grant every 2-3 years or if they won't how the GAA can be forced into taking over this responsiblity.
                 Local soccer? the ills of soccer in this country are because it's professional at the top level? Are you nuts?
                 Everybody on this site agrees that professionalism as is practiced in the premiership, the heineken cup, in Aussie rules or any other fully pro sport would have serious consequences for the GAA but we are nowhere near that, and you considering the rest of us as naive won't change that.

QuoteIts pretty obvious to anyone that thinks about it that the money for the players will come from central.

Why would the GAA pay every IC hurler and footballer in the country, nobody wants them to and they could only do so after the membeership voted to allow them to and this won't happen.

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2007, 04:54:48 PM

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 04:47:52 PM
how will a scenario develop where counties must find extra revenue streams in order to meet the requirements of player salaries?

Its pretty obvious to anyone that thinks about it that the money for the players will come from central.

Well the better put the for sale sign up in Croker and every other asset they own - becase after a few years of paying players salaries in EVERY county in Football and hurling there isnt going to be much left ...................... It aint going to happen

Unless you mean 'Centra' - I suppose the local shop in each county could sponser the county team ;)

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
Ok RGAAGAA since we are all naive, stupid and ignorant can you explain to us in layman's terms why the government will increase the grant every 2-3 years or if they won't how the GAA can be forced into taking over this responsiblity.

Do you need spoonfed everything?  ???

They will get increases through the same way as they got the grants. "Don't pay us more, we don't play."


The GAA are already going to pay these grants through unreceived govt finance, only you lot are ignoring it or are too stupid to realise it.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
                  Local soccer? the ills of soccer in this country are because it's professional at the top level? Are you nuts?

Don't know where your going with this.

There is much wrong with local soccer, money sinks are alot of the problem, inept management by the FAI and IFA another... but there are many issues there.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
                  Everybody on this site agrees that professionalism as is practiced in the premiership, the heineken cup, in Aussie rules or any other fully pro sport would have serious consequences for the GAA but we are nowhere near that, and you considering the rest of us as naive won't change that.

Yet you (and the grant supporters) think that it won't incrementally move that way - but the GAA would die long before it reached a level of the english premiership.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 05:05:22 PM
Why would the GAA pay every IC hurler and footballer in the country, nobody wants them to and they could only do so after the membeership voted to allow them to and this won't happen.

This is breathtakingly simple, I really cannot see how you cannot grasp it.

Instead of giving the GAA (central council) the annual aid/grant/tax breaks money, the government will give it to the players. That money would have went to central, which would have went to the provinces, then onto the counties, and finally down to the clubs.


I really don't know if I can make it much more straightforward and simpler than that.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 02:54:31 PM
most club members don't give a fiddlers and don't begrudge their county lads the grant.

This grants row is done to death.
BUT I cannot let statements like the above be trotted out like fact.

Most club members dont give a fiddlers about the grant??

Says who??? Just because Dessie pulled that "fact" out of his arse doesnt make it true.
Not one member of my club has been asked his opinion, nice of you to tell us what it is  ::)

Quote from: magpie seanie on December 13, 2007, 04:21:53 PM

QuoteEh, the results of this poll  knob.

I thought the poll said "Will the paying of grants affect your attendance at Inter-County games" not "Do you intend to go to county football next year". But you probably can't see the difference between the two statements.

Clutching at straws there a bit seanie ::) semantics all you have to offer to the argument?

Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2007, 05:19:59 PM
The GAA are already going to pay these grants through unreceived govt finance, only you lot are ignoring it or are too stupid to realise it.

no they are not.

This is just a stupid line to be goin down. not a bit of wonder noone else is jumping in to help you row that boat.

Holiness - what's dessie got to do with it? i'm basing my comment on the fact that our club agm and those of our 2 neighbouring clubs, the issue wasn't even mentioned and the only comments i ever hear from day to day, and they're rare, are ones of total bafflement at the "fuss in tyrone" about this.

If you weren't such a lazy sod you could easily have found out that i have been a poster hear long before the grants issue and saved you making yourself look like an ass again.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 08:27:29 PM
[Holiness - what's dessie got to do with it?

He said the majority are pro grant based on nothing.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 08:27:29 PM
i'm basing my comment on the fact that our club agm and those of our 2 neighbouring clubs, the issue wasn't even mentioned and the only comments i ever hear from day to day, and they're rare, are ones of total bafflement at the "fuss in tyrone" about this.

In fairness its only really hit the headlines in the past week. Rather than say people dont care about it because they didnt say the care, why not base it on facts.
The only way to do this is a natiowide poll of members to get their opinions, otherwise we should all refrain from claiming to know what people think.

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 08:27:29 PM
If you weren't such a lazy sod you could easily have found out that i have been a poster hear long before the grants issue and saved you making yourself look like an ass again.

Lazy sod?? Well actually if you werent such a lazy sod you would realise I DID check this and realised I was in fact wrong, and edited my post BEFORE you posted this!

Once again though this "lazy sod" and "making yourself look like an ass again" sort of childishness is doing nothing for your argument, this is why I have refrained from debating with you except to point out when you come out with facts you cant possibly back up.

You said most club members dont give a fiddlers without knowing this for fact, I merely questioned this.

Most club members I have discussed this with are opposed to the grant, yet I wouldnt be so arrogant to claim this is the case with the majority of members nationwide as neither I nor you have these figures.

Seem its only the case at club level in tyrone editor

Quote from: DMarsden on December 13, 2007, 08:27:29 PM
no they are not.

This is just a stupid line to be goin down. not a bit of wonder noone else is jumping in to help you row that boat.

I guess you came up the blackwater in a bubble then.


Time will prove me right.

Ok Tram this is how you proposed that professionalism could come into the GAA

QuoteI would say the main fear is that a foothold to professionalism has already been obtained regardless of the source of funds. I asked the €25,000 question because I would say quite a few players could live solely each year on such a payment without much extravagance, maybe not in some places but certainly in plenty of others, while the rest would in effect be semi-pro in all but name, working on a day job on something else and not necessarily full time. From reading between the lines, am I right in saying that you would still regard players receiving this sum of money (€25,000 p.a.) as amateur, and not requiring an amendment to Rule 11? If so, it's one that for me is hard to fathom because as I've already said many players could live on such a sum alone. You then effectively get a state subsidised pro-sports platform which still defines itself as amateur. And pro-sports don't have to be wallowing in megabucks like the English Premier soccer league, many pro sports bodies see its competitors play on small wages.

Now while the above situation is unlikely, another one is where claims of hypocrisy is laid and is more plausible. A wealthy businessman, or a number of them bunched together, may decide to offer say a panel of 20-24 players  €15,000 each plus bonuses & perks e.g. mortgage paid each month, on progression in the championship on the condition of (a) giving up all other full-time work and (b) not playing football for their club or at the very least the bare minimum they have to e.g. championship games only. This would be in addition of doing promotional work for said business' e.g. in adverts. In other words, live the life of a full time pro athlete. Now this money doesn't directly involve the GAA or even its county boards, but is paid direct to the players involved. This to me in terms of ethos lies in a similar fashion with the grants deal struck, only amplified a lot more and doesn't involve the government but private business concerns. Does the rule of amateurism still realistically count? To me its as good as dissolved without having to touch the Official Guide. I'm sure the counter-claim will be that managers are already getting this and have been for years. I've already explained myself on this and I don't intend repeating it, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Now I think we agree that the Govt. are not going to pay GAA players anything like €25000, so we'll move onto the next possibility. A consortium of business people coming together is a possibility, but that doesn't make the GAA a professional sport. As it stands now or at any time in the past a group of individuals could have come together to fund a full-time county panel, but it's never happened, and I can't see it being anymore likely because of the grant.
                               I said your suggestion was unrealistic and I stand by that, first off any player would need a living wage which is at least €25,000, for guys with families even that sum may not be enough. But at 25K by 25 players that's over 600K, not small money for any consortium to pay especially when the panel will play for free anyway. Or what about players who are doctors, physios, farmers, business owners etc. are they going to take career breaks for €25000 (approx.) per year. I don't see too many players accepting that they can't play for their clubs take career breaks based on the loose arrangement of a group of businessmen paying them basic money for an in determined amount of time.
                Also tram neither of your two suggestions are based on the GAA paying players out of their own funds or players all across the country becoming full time professionals. We can argue all night about whether a particular group of businessmen would pay players in a particular county but I think you'd accept that 32 counties wouldn't secure such largesse from local businessmen. Or any county would get it on a consistent basis.

QuoteThey will get increases through the same way as they got the grants. "Don't pay us more, we don't play."

So you think that anytime the GPA want something they can just stamp their feet and the GAA will fold. It is your position that professionalism will come about by the GPA threathening to strike. And you called me niave.

i remember a time there at th moscow olimpics, pl were happy with the going's on then, n they cudnt be pulled away from the stadium for love nor money. i tell ye boys, nada bather til them

I agree tram but I don't think it is either likely or at least anymore so because of the grants. Like I say not only would you need a group of businessmen willing and able to fund it but all the players would need to be on board and what is a good deal for one lad could be a bad one for another.  Some posters keep saying this (the grant) is the thin edge of the wedge but a proper professional structure in the GAA needs the support of the vast majority of the membership and that isn't going to happen in the foreseeable future.
                   You can certainly question whether IC players deserve the grant as opposed to club players or other athletes. And I'd agree that the GPA have come across poorly during this debate but the principle of amateurism or the thin edge of the wedge are not sustainable arguments against this grant.    

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 09:26:00 PM
So you think that anytime the GPA want something they can just stamp their feet and the GAA will fold.

Lets go by the historical evidence shall we?

The GPA have threatened... once.

The GAA have capitulated... once.


Let me get out the calculator and do the sums on that....


Yeap, 100% success rate for the GPA.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 09:26:00 PM
It is your position that professionalism will come about by the GPA threathening to strike. And you called me niave.

No, not solely through threatening of strike action - to assume such would be silly. There will be other back door methods used (a bit like the paying managers debacle that has been ongoing for some time).

RadioGAAGAA do you not have any appreciation of how different a grant from the government is and the GAA themselves paying players to play.
I'll give you a quick illustration, if we are next door neighbours but don't know one another very well, and you call to my house looking for a pint of milk, I'd give it to you without any problem. If you called to my house the following day looking for a €10,000 loan I'd refuse. Using your logic the fact that I gave you a pint of milk(the grant) should also mean I'd give you the €10,000 (professionalism). Can you not see that the GAA can support the govt. giving players grants while at the same time know that they'll never pay players themselves. And please don't start on that 'we are paying them already craic', that is just your opinion, not fact.
Dessie Farrell, Nickey Brennan or anyone else can't bring professionalism to the GAA, it's only when people like you, me and other grassroots members decide that we want professionalism can it happen.

Quote from: darbyo on December 13, 2007, 10:15:06 PM
Can you not see that the GAA can support the govt. giving players grants while at the same time know that they'll never pay players themselves. And please don't start on that 'we are paying them already craic', that is just your opinion, not fact.

I'm sorry, but it pretty much is fact, and will publically be confirmed as such the first time Bertie is tackled on it in the Dail. The GAA will lose out on government funding approximately equivalent to the value of the grants.


Thinking otherwise is extremely naive.

Well RadioGAAGAA maybe you something I don't, I hope you are wrong about this. But if you are right I'll be the first to acknowledge it.

Do you know how many GAA members in 26 Counties have votes? A lot of votes.

37.4% who say it will affect their attendance at IC games is a lot higher than I would have expected to be honest.

37% is prob not indicative
but even if it was 10% , thats still too many (lets face it) of the die hards that this affects.
The bandwagon jumpers will not give a damn. Its our core members and generally the people that would be most likely to perform all the work and committee jobs that seem to be most affected by this.
I am one of them.
Hopefully this will work itself out.

Quote from: Blacksheep on December 13, 2007, 10:49:50 PM
Do you know how many GAA members in 26 Counties have votes? A lot of votes.

This is the reason why i believe the government will not renege on the funding

Marsden is right - the govt and GAA will never go back on the grants -
However my fear is not about the grants - it's what the GPA will be demanding anytime they wish to up the ante  - it was galling to read a statement from the GPA on Wednesday announcing that the threat of strike action has been called off and thanked all members for their support ( until next time ) - the statement ended by saying that it was now demanding official recognition by the GPA - I know where I'd tell them to go.............

Had a very interesting discussion with a current County player last night. He is very very sceptical about the grants and the motives of the GPA in this. He has dealt with the GPA before in a number of business/GAA matters and believes they are more Grab All Association that the GAA ever where.

He thinks that this is leading down a very danagerous road. His concerns are now:

The imbalance - The Kerry footballers will get not much more than the Monaghan hurlers. Anyone who knows the effort the Monaghan hurlers put in, will know that this should equate to about €10.37 each for the year. How long before the GPA look to increase the rewards for the bigger or more successful counties.

Club Players - The county mgt set-ups are already putting pressure on players to avoid the club matches/training. Now they have another stick to use. Will county managers use the 80% training attendence to increase sessions and insure that players stay with the county more. Also, will players with weaker clubs turn their backs to the club as they will be getting money with the county and may let it go to their heads and "believe" that they are some sort of professional. I know young players who think they are above anything even of they play a senior league match. Will county managers expand their training squads?

Value - As he siad the grant is very small and the GPA keep making this point. Is it small because thats all they wanted to get the foot in the door as such? With new TV deals, sponsorship on the horizon, the GAA are going to get richer. Will the GPA be happy with their lot or will they go fishing again in a few years?

Gov - At present its coming from the Gov? Is this going to be guaranteed in future? What happens if the Gov change or tights get tighter out there. Will they be happy to throw this money at the GAA? What happens if they don't cough up. The GAA have said they won't.

A lot of his fears are only going to materialise down the line. It happened in rugby that the elite players where taken from their clubs i.e from Shannon to Munster. This is his biggest fear. For the amounts involved at present he doesn;t think its worth the hassle, media coverage, threat of strike.

He actually voted for the strike but regrets this and said it was a collective team vote.

Bingobus

1 - The initial proposal put by the Sports Council was that only the All-Star nominees should get a grant (the 3.5m between them), the GPA vetoed that totally and said it had to go to everyone.
2 - The proposals with regards to training, improvements, measurements etc ensure that each county for both football/hurling has to put forward detailed plans which will be analyzed ot ensure they meet the criteria and then the results analysed...If panels/players aren't meeting the criteria then they won't get the grant...this will ensure that the hurlers buck up their ideas...
3 - 80% of 3 sessions a week or 80% of 2 sessions a week...its still 80% - it is up to teh county board to set the levels of training required.....If you read the GPA's proposal as to how to remedy the club/county conflict you might understand better...
4 - The payments are only to 30 players - if they expand the panel then each players grant is reduced or hte extra players don't get any...
5 - The money is not from the GAA...REPEAT NOT FROM THE GAA...if they look for money from the GAA directly that is a whole different ball game..
6 - It has been agreed that the money is from teh Govt and that the GAA isn't obliged to pay if the Govt doesn't pay....therefore if the Govt doesn't authorise the Grant it is not a GAA issue...
7 - The reason players moved from Shannon etc was BECAUSE THE GAME WENT PROFESSIONAL....that is not what has happened in the GAA....

Quote from: DUBSFORSAM1 on December 14, 2007, 11:00:46 AM
Bingobus

1 - The initial proposal put by the Sports Council was that only the All-Star nominees should get a grant (the 3.5m between them), the GPA vetoed that totally and said it had to go to everyone.
2 - The proposals with regards to training, improvements, measurements etc ensure that each county for both football/hurling has to put forward detailed plans which will be analyzed ot ensure they meet the criteria and then the results analysed...If panels/players aren't meeting the criteria then they won't get the grant...this will ensure that the hurlers buck up their ideas...
3 - 80% of 3 sessions a week or 80% of 2 sessions a week...its still 80% - it is up to teh county board to set the levels of training required.....If you read the GPA's proposal as to how to remedy the club/county conflict you might understand better...
4 - The payments are only to 30 players - if they expand the panel then each players grant is reduced or hte extra players don't get any...
5 - The money is not from the GAA...REPEAT NOT FROM THE GAA...if they look for money from the GAA directly that is a whole different ball game..
6 - It has been agreed that the money is from teh Govt and that the GAA isn't obliged to pay if the Govt doesn't pay....therefore if the Govt doesn't authorise the Grant it is not a GAA issue...
7 - The reason players moved from Shannon etc was BECAUSE THE GAME WENT PROFESSIONAL....that is not what has happened in the GAA....

DUBSFORSAM1,

I know all that and he knows all that. If you lead my post again, it is the road that this is leading down that will be the problem and his reasons for it where outlined in my post. At present there is no big deal but how long  will this be the case.

Also, anyone who thinks that if the Gov don;t pay the grants that it won;t be a GAA issue then they need to take their head out of the sand. GAA players not getting their "Grants" is clearly a GAA issue...the key term been "GAA player".

Bingobus, this is just the thin edge of the wedge argument again and as DFS points out the GPA have agreed that the GAA have no responsibility to pay the money if the govt. stop doing so. This is publicly stated and in writing so I can't see where the GPA can argue otherwise. Besides a rule change would definitely be required if the GAA were to pay players out of there own pockets. And this would require a vote and I think it is abundantly clear that if this were to happen what the result would be.

I suppose its a question of do you trust the GPA to go on their word and accept it if the GOV give up the Grants money?

Personally, I feel they wouldn't just accept it as easy, while I agree with you that if it went to Congress it would be laughed out the door. But having played the strike card once, the GPA would be left with little choice but to strike again. Would you not agree?

Well I think any organisation needs to feel that they have both support and a justifiable cause before they can consider striking. Despite what some on here might say, a large proportion of the GAA community either supported or were indifferent to the grants proposal. The vast majority of GAA people are vehemently opposed to professionalism and I think this is true of many IC players also (your friend being an example). So if some, at least, IC players are against professionalism and 99% of the membership are, what leverage do the GPA have to force it through? If some players went on strike on the grounds of professionalism they would be ignored and counties would field without them, most of them wouldn't be long coming back I'm sure. Remember these guys have to live amongst the rest of us and the GAA has been central to their lives, they wouldn't risk losing that over an issue they can't win.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 11:43:45 AM
Despite what some on here might say, a large proportion of the GAA community either supported or were indifferent to the grants proposal.

On what basis do you say this?


Looking around the various county boards that have discussed the grants (and subsequently refused to administer them), I think its quite clear what they feel about the grants. If you take the polls on here as a representative sample, then the majority clearly oppose the grants.

I don't see any evidence that points towards the majority being supportive or indifferent to the grants.

in case some may forget

the whole 'better expenses' for GAA players was the start of the 'thin edge of the wedge'
this grants for players is phase two
so the ball is rolling and the old argument that there is no indication that the goalposts will be moved is bullsiht

if you dont see that, then ,well its because youdont want to...but I recalldebate and indignation first time around in the early/mid 90's about expenses - and it wasnt that there were no expenses - its that they were not ENOUGH!
(costs were covered but the argument was that the players should get expenses that would mean they got a wee bit extra for their time.

So stop whinging that there is no precedent or indication of direction...you are wrong !

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 11:43:45 AM
Despite what some on here might say, a large proportion of the GAA community either supported or were indifferent to the grants proposal

Jesus are we back to pulling facts from our arses again. Where did you get that from?

There have been no polls to find this out so its purely opinion and the truth is neither side know the proportions of members who support them, so lets stop trotting out what you want to believe as truth.  ::)

Well apparently the Mayo board have met since their public rejection of the grants and the issue wasn't even raised (not an indication that they are bristling with indignation). There is no evidence either way to conclusively prove what the majority of GAA supporters think. But from people I speak to on the ground, it either doesn't interest them much or they are ok with it. Those who are vehemently opposed to this are making themselves heard the loudest, but that is always the way, as usual there is a silent majority out there. And I'd wager most of them just want to get on with playing side of it, they aren't too bothered whether the players get this grant or not.
                            But I don't think we should get into a debate about a side issue especially one with no conclusion. The main point of my post was that we have nothing to fear from these grants and that this isn't the thin edge of anything, well not unless we as an organisation democratically vote for it.

Well apparently the Mayo board have met since their public rejection of the grants and the issue wasn't even raised (not an indication that they are bristling with indignation). There is no evidence either way to conclusively prove what the majority of GAA supporters think. But from people I speak to on the ground, it either doesn't interest them much or they are ok with it. Those who are vehemently opposed to this are making themselves heard the loudest, but that is always the way, as usual there is a silent majority out there. And I'd wager most of them just want to get on with playing side of it, they aren't too bothered whether the players get this grant or not.
                            But I don't think we should get into a debate about a side issue especially one with no conclusion. The main point of my post was that we have nothing to fear from these grants and that this isn't the thin edge of anything, well not unless we as an organisation democratically vote for it.

QuoteSo stop whinging that there is no precedent or indication of direction...you are wrong !

Bullshit, plain and simple. I remember having a class debate in school about whether the GAA should go professional or not, that was at least 15 years ago. I'm sure some people spoke about the possibility before that and I'm sure people will talk about 15, 50, 150 years from now.
                When I played minor football I got a hamstring injury and the club didn't want to pay for the physio treatment, now the minor team have a physio present at any championship match and any club player who needs treatment gets it without any question. So of course things change and move on and yes things will change in the future BUT PROFESSIONALISM, WHERE GAA PLAYERS GET PAID BY THE GAA FOR PLAYING GAA CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE ORGAINISATION SUPPORTS IT.
                 The majority of changes that have come about for players in the last 15 years or so have been for the better. The world is constantly changing and there has often been conflict in many walks of life to secure the rights of various groups. When workers started orgainising themselves and demanding better working conditions, they didn't continue agitating after reasonable working conditions were granted did they? If the GAA work with players meet reasonable demands then there is no reason why players will continue to look for more.

QuoteJesus are we back to pulling facts from our arses again. Where did you get that from?

There have been no polls to find this out so its purely opinion and the truth is neither side know the proportions of members who support them, so lets stop trotting out what you want to believe as truth.

I just saw this after I had written most of the above so you'll see I agree with you that we don't really know, but you are one to talk about pulling things from your arse, most of the anti-grants post have been based on how they are talking for the majority of the grassroots and about what is definately going to happen in the future. When I ask people to lay out how professionalism is going to come to pass only tram can even offer an opinion. Talk about pulling facts from your arse.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
I just saw this after I had written most of the above so you'll see I agree with you that we don't really know, but you are one to talk about pulling things from your arse, most of the anti-grants post have been based on how they are talking for the majority of the grassroots and about what is definately going to happen in the future. When I ask people to lay out how professionalism is going to come to pass only tram can even offer an opinion. Talk about pulling facts from your arse.

Ok Darbyo, please show me which facts I pulled from my arse????
I dont recall claiming to speak on behalf of the grass roots, I am only one grass roots member.
A point I have made on several occasions is that nobody at my club has been asked for their opinion so how could either side claim to know what people are thinking.

I'm afraid I have to go now hhnb but you'll notice that I said most 'anti-gpa' posters were claiming to speak on behalf of the grassroots and all of them arte talking about some future doomsday dcenario that will definately come to pass if these grants are accepted. As an anti-grant man you never once (that I can recall) questioned the validity of any of these claims based on factual proof. Yet when I post something which I subsequently qualify you claim I'm pulling facts out of my ass. So if you didn't claim to talk on behalf of the grassroots or use the thin edge of the wedge argument yourself you certainly supported those who did, and both those views are as factually unsupportable as what you pulled me up on.

Quote from: darbyo
So stop whinging that there is no precedent or indication of direction...you are wrong !

Quote
Bullshit, plain and simple. I remember having a class debate in school about whether the GAA should go professional or not, that was at least 15 years ago. I'm sure some people spoke about the possibility before that and I'm sure people will talk about 15, 50, 150 years from now.
                When I played minor football I got a hamstring injury and the club didn't want to pay for the physio treatment, now the minor team have a physio present at any championship match and any club player who needs treatment gets it without any question. So of course things change and move on and yes things will change in the future BUT PROFESSIONALISM, WHERE GAA PLAYERS GET PAID BY THE GAA FOR PLAYING GAA CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE ORGAINISATION SUPPORTS IT.
                 The majority of changes that have come about for players in the last 15 years or so have been for the better. The world is constantly changing and there has often been conflict in many walks of life to secure the rights of various groups. When workers started orgainising themselves and demanding better working conditions, they didn't continue agitating after reasonable working conditions were granted did they? If the GAA work with players meet reasonable demands then there is no reason why players will continue to look for more.

Quote
I am still attempting to see your point - especially where you can honestly refute my statement as bullsiht !

I think you are confusing natural progression with the demands of pay per play and semblences of professionalism in the GAA.

the aspect of better medical care - thats fine, but as medicine and care is evolving in our once backward country, I see this is progression. Finance matters also.

However, what crosses the line is the aspect of money in relation, proportional to or even inversely proportional to PLAYING gaelic games.
when you were debating professionalism in football/hurling - around that time the papers were full of quotes from certain players (the forerunners of the gpa) week in week out whining on about not getting enough expenses. It was proven that players were getting adequate milage and so on, but the thing was relaxed and players were given double the milage and then the sports gear came along, food and then holidays etc.

your point is not relevant to this argument, natural progression in GAA playing terms does not include more money for players above inflatory rates - that are payments for playig and some kind of quasi-professionalism , if not yet semi pro or full pro.


the slippery slope was started then and you have not indicated otherwise. so where willit end, given the 75milion euros the GAA are about to get from TV and advertising.
Go set up a Pro Gaelic games league and see how long you last.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
I'm afraid I have to go now hhnb but you'll notice that I said most 'anti-gpa' posters were claiming to speak on behalf of the grassroots and all of them arte talking about some future doomsday dcenario that will definately come to pass if these grants are accepted. As an anti-grant man you never once (that I can recall) questioned the validity of any of these claims based on factual proof.

Its not my responsibility to comment on every single comment that cant be backed up. And not doing so certainly doesnt mean I "pull facts from my arse" in any way.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
Yet when I post something which I subsequently qualify you claim I'm pulling facts out of my ass.

You DIDNT qualify this claim, you merely said that lads you spoke to were either for it or didnt really care. That doesn qualify that statement at all!!
Most guys I have spoke to are against it, but I wouldnt dare claim that means the majority of members are against it!!
Rather than qualify this claim you actually admitted theres know way of knowing if what you said is true!!

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
So if you didn't claim to talk on behalf of the grassroots or use the thin edge of the wedge argument yourself you certainly supported those who did, and both those views are as factually unsupportable as what you pulled me up on.

?????? My comments are my comments. I speak for myself. If I have posted in support of factually unsupportable posts please show me this.

Otherwise withdraw your comment about me!

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
Well apparently the Mayo board have met since their public rejection of the grants and the issue wasn't even raised (not an indication that they are bristling with indignation).

So... the Mayo board have publically rejected the grants... but you are trying to imply they don't really care too much?

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
There is no evidence either way to conclusively prove what the majority of GAA supporters think.

True - but all current evidence would point towards the majority being against the grants.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
But I don't think we should get into a debate about a side issue especially one with no conclusion.

Fair enough - but this whole argument has no definite conclusion, none of us can say with 100% certainty what will happen in the future (and if any poster can, could you PM me the weekends lottery numbers  ;D).

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
The main point of my post was that we have nothing to fear from these grants and that this isn't the thin edge of anything, well not unless we as an organisation democratically vote for it.

I disagree entirely - these grants have made a fundamental change to the landscape of the GAA (you CANNOT deny that - whether you support or oppose the grants) - and there was no vote.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:15:08 PM
Bullshit, plain and simple. I remember having a class debate in school about whether the GAA should go professional or not, that was at least 15 years ago. I'm sure some people spoke about the possibility before that and I'm sure people will talk about 15, 50, 150 years from now.

When I played minor football I got a hamstring injury and the club didn't want to pay for the physio treatment, now the minor team have a physio present at any championship match and any club player who needs treatment gets it without any question. So of course things change and move on and yes things will change in the future BUT PROFESSIONALISM, WHERE GAA PLAYERS GET PAID BY THE GAA FOR PLAYING GAA CAN ONLY HAPPEN IF THE DEMOCRATIC WILL OF THE ORGAINISATION SUPPORTS IT.
                 
The majority of changes that have come about for players in the last 15 years or so have been for the better. The world is constantly changing and there has often been conflict in many walks of life to secure the rights of various groups. When workers started orgainising themselves and demanding better working conditions, they didn't continue agitating after reasonable working conditions were granted did they? If the GAA work with players meet reasonable demands then there is no reason why players will continue to look for more.

Not one bit of that offers me a single shred of reassurance that this is not the start of a very slippery slope. As lynchbhoy points out, IC players have been getting much better expenses in recent years, but nothing the GAA does will ever be enough to keep them happy.



Oh, and see the bit in bold - drop the silly arguments with semantics, we all know that the players wouldn't have played if they were not going to get paid. It fits the dictionary definition of professionalism.

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:30:04 PM
I'm afraid I have to go now hhnb but you'll notice that I said most 'anti-gpa' posters were claiming to speak on behalf of the grassroots and all of them arte talking about some future doomsday dcenario that will definately come to pass if these grants are accepted.

I have almost surely posted some unqualified statements recently.


However, I have clearly linked back to the circumstantial evidence of local soccer and local rugby numerous times, and my arguments are stemming from that EVIDENCE. Contrary to the pro grant arguments, which are based on.......?

I have also made it clear that the opinions of the majority may be reflected in the poll on here, and in the positions of the various county boards on the issue.


The unfounded facts and the irrational opinions based on nothing have been coming from one side of this argument... and it isn't my side.

Lynchbhoy, I like every other pro-grant poster (from what I can gather) on this site is against the GAA going professional. You claim these improvements are just a natural progression and to a degree you're right but the fact that players organised themselves and put pressure on the GAA quickened the process. More importantly many of the improvements that occurred at inter-county level found their way down to club level also.
                    Again lets not get off point here and argue about little issues, the point I'm making is that there is no reason to feel that these grants are the thin edge of any wedge. What IC players have got is IMO fair and others would agree, the expenses that players get may be over and above what they actually spend but again most won't lose sleep over that. However if there is a clear indication that certain people are trying to force the GAA down the road of professionalism then they would find themselves on the outside looking in.
                               Maybe the majority of GAA people are against this grant but a significant minority are in favour of it IMO. But the general feeling amongst GAA people that I know is one of indifference. That wouldn't be the case if we were talking about the GAA paying this money. So I can't see how anyone thinks this will lead to the ruination of the GAA and no-one who says it will, can explain to the rest of us how.

Darbyo, fair enough, we shouldnt get distracted by the small issues, but when you say I am one to talk about pulling facts from my arse because somebody else did (not me) you must surely expect a reaction??

Quote from: darbyo on December 14, 2007, 01:52:23 PM
That wouldn't be the case if we were talking about the GAA paying this money.

The truth on that will come out in the wash.