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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7056388.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7056388.stm)

::)

Hey if Gerry says it aint so it must not be true........

Talking through your hole 5Times. Individuals may have been involved or this guys employees but the IRA were not involved.

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:04:16 PM
Talking through your hole 5Times. Individuals may have been involved or this guys employees but the IRA were not involved.

Sure they can't have been involved they don't exist, any more.  ::)

Quote from: SammyG on October 22, 2007, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:04:16 PM
Talking through your hole 5Times. Individuals may have been involved or this guys employees but the IRA were not involved.

Sure they can't have been involved they don't exist, any more.  ::)

They exist alright Sammy only:

1. they don't act as anyones personal hit squad
2. they don't 'do' punishment beatings or threats

so was the IRA itself involved or people who were once in the IRA involved? If it is the case that the IRA are still going well then i guess they are just criminals and this would put Sinn Fein in a real tight spot. CAB should make a big effort to chase any of these former IRA lads who seem to be involved in anything like this.

This lad, McAllister, was on Pat Kenny this morning. According to him the murder had nothing to do with fuel smuggling as has been put around. According to him basically this young lad had a fallling out with a local family that have strong republican links. The way he put it, more than one of them set about him but he saw them off. Some time later he had another confrontation with another republican figure. He was warned off, I take it from what the guy said, my interpretation, that he was told to leave the area. Saturday he was lured to the location, and a so called punishment beating went to far, and the boy is dead. Seems plausable to me. Now as to whether this was an IRA sanctioned activity I don't know, but it does seem a local group feel they can meat out "justice" however they please, which is bang out of order in the first place, but has obviously had tragic consequences in this case. McAllister went on to say that a window was broken at the house of one of those he suspected were involved in the attack, and appealed to those thinking about vengence that it's not what the boys family wants.

Jim McAllister is full for shite. Another hard done by 'dissident' with an axe to grind. The simple fact is that the IRA haven't done punishment beatings in years and McAllister knows this well and as someone who's been trying to keep a lid on disturbances and anti-social elements in Lurgan recently I know it for a fact as well.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:14:53 PM
Donagh the IRA were involved. 100% Fact, I could actually name some of the people that were there and they were there on behalf of the IRA. This was an IRA punishment beating that went wrong and now they are trying to deny involvment. This young lad got a bit big for his boots in some peoples eyes and gave a few slaps to some of the locals, he ended up paying with his life because he hit the wrong people.
It takes some real hard men to beat a young lad to death. I believe it only took about 10 of them.

That's a load of balls 5Times and you probably know it. Whoever is feeding you your information has obviously been out of the circles as long as yourself.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:23:42 PM
Donagh I got a call at 9 on Saturday about this incident. I know the young lad that died and I knew what had happened in the run up to his death. He did not deserve what he got. He was killed because he stood up for himself againgst a so called community police.
Maybe if you had a brain of your own you could actually see past Gerry Adams press releases and realise that the IRA, your heroes, have simply murdered a young local man whio stood up to them.
So you move in circles that murder kids, big f**king deal.

So you're going to come out with that old nugget again, I'd suggest that displays more about your own lack of intelligence than mine – or that big chip on your shoulder. You know fcuk all about what happened so stop trying to let on you are somehow in the know. I don't associate with the IRA but I know plenty of people in the Lurgan area who have been pleading with them for a long time now to do something about anti-social behaviour and the response has been to direct them to the PSNI. I know of a senior republican in north Armagh who as assaulted by a drug dealer and nothing was done, so don't try and give me this load of w**k that the IRA beat a little boy to death over a street brawl.

You say they do everything...

my car needs a service, who within the IRA deals with that end of things? :-\

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:45:41 PM
Donagh for your information a good mate of mine lives in Cullyhanna and knows young Quinn very well. We got a tractor stole a few months ago and this young lad got it back for us. Paul Quinn like a lot of people his age was a bit wild and would have calmed down when he got a bit older, I was no different myself. He didnt deserve to die at the hands of a gang of masked cowards. His friends gathered at the house of one of the perpetrators last night.

I didn't say he did deserved it or those that did it aren't cowards but I'm contesting your assertion above that it was carried out by the IRA.

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:07:44 PM
1. they don't act as anyones personal hit squad

That is the most untrue statement i'vr read on this board. they have been acting in exactly this manner in south armagh for years. the number of barroom brawls and personal vendettas settled with "punishment beatings" is shocking.

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:49:40 PM
Ok Donagh, lets blame the Brits.

Well given the actions of the IRA long before they completed decommissioning, the acceptance of the PSNI, and all that would be placed at risk by sanctioning this, blaming the Brits is a lot more credible than blaming the IRA. Personally my own inclination would be to blame the only group in South Armagh still be running about with weapons, acting like cowboys and smuggling cigarettes and diesel – and Jim McAllister would know them boys very well.

I'm not claiming any knowledge of this but surely this

Quoteblaming the Brits is a lot more credible than blaming the IRA

is preposterous?

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:56:13 PM

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:49:40 PM
Ok Donagh, lets blame the Brits.

Well given the actions of the IRA long before they completed decommissioning, the acceptance of the PSNI, and all that would be placed at risk by sanctioning this, blaming the Brits is a lot more credible than blaming the IRA. Personally my own inclination would be to blame the only group in South Armagh still be running about with weapons, acting like cowboys and smuggling cigarettes and diesel – and Jim McAllister would know them boys very well.

Actions such as the Bank or Robert McCartney for example?

Quote from: heganboy on October 22, 2007, 02:59:52 PM
I'm not claiming any knowledge of this but surely this

Quoteblaming the Brits is a lot more credible than blaming the IRA

is preposterous?

Which is exactly the point heganboy

It seems to me that there is little doubt that people with republican links were responsible - there is a doubt however whether it was a sanctioned attack

 and it doesnt matter what he did to 'provoke' them - his death was a disgrace.
the fellas who killed the young lad are acting upon their own gangs directives, and not directives from IRA or army council.

there is still a gang in south armagh that seem to operate under the guise of being IRA - which some of them were, but appears that they were always only interested in their own personal gain.

to say they are still 'IRA' men (the ones tthat potentially were) is wrong.

If the IRA were still about, they would and should have dealt with this band of cowboy killers a long time ago.

It is the same as the mccartney killing- nothing to do with the IRA.

this kind of petty personal sh*t doesnt get sanctioned.

that gang needs to be sorted out though, whether by similar methods, or the psni finally getting off their holes and doing their jobs.

Its notable that they refuse to police properly in areas like this and Derry city.

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:07:44 PM

Quote from: SammyG on October 22, 2007, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:04:16 PM
Talking through your hole 5Times. Individuals may have been involved or this guys employees but the IRA were not involved.

Sure they can't have been involved they don't exist, any more.  ::)

They exist alright Sammy only:

1. they don't act as anyones personal hit squad
2. they don't 'do' punishment beatings or threats

FFS i've heard it all now, Donagh away and catch urself on will ye???

Who can take a sunrise, sprinkle it with dew...... ;D

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 03:16:36 PM
Sinn Fein president Gerry Adams ........ described the killers as "criminals".

No flies on Gerry.

As a side issue to this, what does the IRA actually do nowadays given the armed struggle is apparently over? Beat people up for old times sake, or is it just a drinking club the way it used to be before they all got serious?

Quote from: Candyman on October 22, 2007, 04:26:13 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:07:44 PM

Quote from: SammyG on October 22, 2007, 02:05:55 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:04:16 PM
Talking through your hole 5Times. Individuals may have been involved or this guys employees but the IRA were not involved.

Sure they can't have been involved they don't exist, any more.  ::)

They exist alright Sammy only:

1. they don't act as anyones personal hit squad
2. they don't 'do' punishment beatings or threats

FFS i've heard it all now, Donagh away and catch urself on will ye???

In what way. When was the last time the IRA killed someone?

QuoteWhich is exactly the point heganboy

what is the probability that the Brits lured a guy to a punishment beating and then killed him and dumped the body over the border while at the same time convinced the local community that it was well known republicans who may or may not have acted under sanction from the IRA.


On another note- how do people decide it was the IRA? do they need some sort of faxed authorisation or an emailed order form? My accountant/ CEO wont accept anything else.
Is it enough that someone who was once in the IRA was present? seriously how does this get labeled as an "IRA activity"

Quote from: heganboy on October 22, 2007, 04:37:59 PM

what is the probability that the Brits lured a guy to a punishment beating and then killed him and dumped the body over the border while at the same time convinced the local community that it was well known republicans who may or may not have acted under sanction from the IRA.

Little to none

Quote from: heganboy on October 22, 2007, 04:37:59 PM
On another note- how do people decide it was the IRA? do they need some sort of faxed authorisation or an emailed order form? My accountant/ CEO wont accept anything else.

They submit to whatever brand of dissident who happens to offer them the best oral pleasure, in this case, Jim Allister and Jim McAllister.

I know a man in North Belfast and he was having bother with anti-social behaviour (said man was a former combatant and well connected) he went to West Belfast to get "help" and was informed that this cannot be done anymore. Was told to use the police, now said man took matters into his own hands and "resolved" the situation himself, this could have been spun to suit any agenda, given his history.
It suits people to blame the IRA on this occasion, for many reasons.
Instead of casting wild accusations everyone should be doing their utmost to hunt down and catch the perpetrators of this heinous crime !!

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 22, 2007, 04:50:19 PM
I know a man in North Belfast and he was having bother with anti-social behaviour (said man was a former combatant and well connected) he went to West Belfast to get "help" and was informed that this cannot be done anymore. Was told to use the police, now said man took matters into his own hands and "resolved" the situation himself, this could have been spun to suit any agenda, given his history.
It suits people to blame the IRA on this occasion, for many reasons.
Instead of casting wild accusations everyone should be doing their utmost to hunt down and catch the perpetrators of this heinous crime !!

Hmmm. I wouldnt mind having contact details if the former combatant just in case I ever need his services which I'd be willing to pay for. Why bother with the courts when the feckers dont even get a slap on the wrist. Instead they get:
- Free accommodation
- Fed and watered
- Access to gym facilities
- Personal social worker
etc etc

Murdered man in IRA-linked fights 

Gardai have been carrying out searches at the murder scene
A man savagely beaten to death had been involved in two fights with people linked to high-ranking republicans, a former Sinn Fein member has said.
Jim McAllister said the family of Paul Quinn, from Cullyhanna, believed the IRA had abducted and murdered him.

Mr Quinn, 21, was found at farm buildings at Tullycoora near Oram in County Monaghan on Saturday.

On Monday, Sinn Fein leader Gerry Adams said republicans were not involved in the murder.

The DUP has said conclusive IRA involvement "could mean the collapse of the political institutions".

However, Mr Adams said: "Others may want to play politics with this dreadful murder. I don't and I won't."

"There is no republican involvement whatsoever in this man's murder and all of us should be careful that we don't end up playing politics with what is a dreadful, criminal action."


Mr Quinn was found at farm buildings near the village of Oram

He said whoever was responsible for the killing should be brought to justice.

Mr McAllister, a member of the 1982 NI Assembly, said the murdered man had received two threats from republicans.

Mr McAllister said the killing had been "a brutal slaughter" by a gang wielding iron bars.

He said two men who worked on the farm had been tied up and forced to phone Mr Quinn to lure him to the area.

'Serious implications'


"He went to the farm with a friend... they separated Paul Quinn from the other three," said Mr McAllister.

He said he did not want to speak on radio about the reports he had heard about the beating Mr Quinn had received in the barn.


The victim had been involved in fights with the son of a leading republican and an associate of high-ranking republicans, he said.


Mr Quinn was beaten by up to 15 men in a barn

DUP MP Jeffrey Donaldson said if it was found that the IRA were involved in the murder it would have serious implications.

"If the IRA were corporately involved in this murder, that may mean that the executive is finished in its current form.

"But we do not yet know and we have to wait until we get all of the facts - but it could mean the collapse of the political institutions.

"That has happened before - it may happen again."



1. Its understandable that given the circumstances, an emotional family will point the finger at, and sweepingly use the statement "The IRA were involved"

2. How does Gerry Adams know that no republicans were involved? Thats pretty sweeping also.

3. Organisation of a plan like that takes a fair degree of calmness, planning and calculated coldness - again not something the average thug off the street might have the criminal brain, contacts or courage to plan. Someone here had done this kind of thing before.

4. Beaten by 15 men - thats a high ratio of non republicans (from a highly republican area) beating up someone who recently had fights with high ranking republicans in the area. Still though, It could be a coincidence.

5. Is it beyond the realms of possibility that IRA men (past, or present) may have been involved in this?  Is it totally unplausable that they acted without higher authority? Is it also ridiculous to think that although this wasnt a sanctioned IRA operation that they will recieve protection from the IRA in terms of a communities silence? FFS, we've been down the same road a number of times in the  past, it always ends up the same. Theres a whole lot of boys on here kidding themselves, or washing blood off republican hands on TECHNICALITIES.

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 02:56:13 PM

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 22, 2007, 02:49:40 PM
Ok Donagh, lets blame the Brits.

Well given the actions of the IRA long before they completed decommissioning, the acceptance of the PSNI, and all that would be placed at risk by sanctioning this, blaming the Brits is a lot more credible than blaming the IRA. Personally my own inclination would be to blame the only group in South Armagh still be running about with weapons, acting like cowboys and smuggling cigarettes and diesel – and Jim McAllister would know them boys very well.

So then, Donagh, there are two possible Groups who might be able to muster 15 people in South Armagh to engage in activity of this type.

The first is that to which you allude above ("known" to Jim McAllister, as it were). This Group, engaged in out-and-out criminality, with access to guns etc, declines just to send a couple of people out to ambush him some evening, put a bullet through his brain, then dump him over the border. Instead, they engage in an elaborate plan, involving 15 people or more and taking hours to commit, with all the forensics etc which that produces, plus the increased risk of interception by the police (however slim), so as to hammer him to death with iron bars. It is possible, I suppose.

Meanwhile, you discount completely the possibility of the other "Group" of likely suspects thereabouts having committed this outrage, even though they have publicly foresworn the use of guns on people with whom they disagree. Or that prominent members of this "Group" were said to have fallen out with the victim prior to his having been murdered. Or that the victim's family believe this "Group" did it. I guess that is just possible, too...

Will you be starting a "Justice for Paul Quinn" Website anytime soon, by any chance? Or will we have to wait 25 years for that?

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 22, 2007, 04:50:19 PM
I know a man in North Belfast and he was having bother with anti-social behaviour (said man was a former combatant and well connected) he went to West Belfast to get "help" and was informed that this cannot be done anymore. Was told to use the police, now said man took matters into his own hands and "resolved" the situation himself, this could have been spun to suit any agenda, given his history.
It suits people to blame the IRA on this occasion, for many reasons.
Instead of casting wild accusations everyone should be doing their utmost to hunt down and catch the perpetrators of this heinous crime !!

Think this is the crux of this debate. Just because like minded people (with republican allegiances) carried this out (allegedly) doesn't mean it would have been sanctioned at any level within republican hierarchies. If thats the case they are just criminals not republican criminals. If the republican leadership are calling for anyone with information to give it to the police then what more can they do? Am I missing something?

South Armagh has developed a problem with thugs.  There's the thugs like Quinn and his cronnies and then there's the thugs like those who killed him.  Some people call these thugs "the IRA" but my first question would be to them is what is the IRA?  There is no IRA left, those that murdered Quinn are the ceasefire soldiers, the thugs who like people to think they're the IRA and who use the IRA's name to intimidate and carry out their criminal activities.  Sinn Fein will do nothing about them. 

Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Let them all kill each other is what I say.

btw, Paul Quinn and his gang arrived to a man's house less than two weeks ago and  badly beat him in front of his wife - The man's crime crime? He intervened when a female member of the Quinn's family was abusing another totally innocent female. 

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 22, 2007, 06:02:01 PM

So then, Donagh, there are two possible Groups who might be able to muster 15 people in South Armagh to engage in activity of this type.

The first is that to which you allude above ("known" to Jim McAllister, as it were). This Group, engaged in out-and-out criminality, with access to guns etc, declines just to send a couple of people out to ambush him some evening, put a bullet through his brain, then dump him over the border. Instead, they engage in an elaborate plan, involving 15 people or more and taking hours to commit, with all the forensics etc which that produces, plus the increased risk of interception by the police (however slim), so as to hammer him to death with iron bars. It is possible, I suppose.

Meanwhile, you discount completely the possibility of the other "Group" of likely suspects thereabouts having committed this outrage, even though they have publicly foresworn the use of guns on people with whom they disagree. Or that prominent members of this "Group" were said to have fallen out with the victim prior to his having been murdered. Or that the victim's family believe this "Group" did it. I guess that is just possible, too...

Will you be starting a "Justice for Paul Quinn" Website anytime soon, by any chance? Or will we have to wait 25 years for that?

I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

Quote from: theskull1 on October 22, 2007, 06:06:22 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 22, 2007, 04:50:19 PM
I know a man in North Belfast and he was having bother with anti-social behaviour (said man was a former combatant and well connected) he went to West Belfast to get "help" and was informed that this cannot be done anymore. Was told to use the police, now said man took matters into his own hands and "resolved" the situation himself, this could have been spun to suit any agenda, given his history.
It suits people to blame the IRA on this occasion, for many reasons.
Instead of casting wild accusations everyone should be doing their utmost to hunt down and catch the perpetrators of this heinous crime !!

Think this is the crux of this debate. Just because like minded people (with republican allegiances) carried this out (allegedly) doesn't mean it would have been sanctioned at any level within republican hierarchies. If thats the case they are just criminals not republican criminals. If the republican leadership are calling for anyone with information to give it to the police then what more can they do? Am I missing something?

Could the republican leadership give the police the information themselves? These calls for co-operation appear to be all smokescreens. How naive do the rest of the country need to be to believe that by now Gerry adams hasnt heard the names of the people involved? No one is saying it is sanctioned (at least not on an operational level) but there is co-operation before and after the crime.

Pints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

Quote"Justice for Paul Quinn" Website anytime soon, by any chance? Or will we have to wait 25 years for that?

thats quite funny.

On a more serious note, I was back home last week and noticed no police about, I was drinking in 2 pubs in particular when I was home (one on each side of the house as we so gently put it) and the consensus was the same, the PSNI don't seem interested in petty crime, vandalising pensioners houses, fireworks being thrown at cars, theft, under age drinking and loitering in town centres, brawling outside pubs. There were complaints that there was a more peaceful town when either set of "the boys" could be called to put manners on wee shites. People who 5 years ago I would have bet didnt know that 999 was the number for the police were complaining about calling the police and no response being received. Similar to  case above where certain unnamed men were telling people that they couldn't do anything call the cops. Wouldn't even have the decency to call round to young fellas doors and let them know their "anti-social behaviour" was being monitored
Is this a general opinion or did I just wander into the wrong places?

Is the north stuck in the twilight zone? Do the PSNI know how to police the 6 counties when there is no armed conflict? Are community police boards the answer? Do the Police need more time?

QuotePints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

No, I would much rather the police would deal with his type but they wont.

There seems to be no doubt that republicans were involved, but it seems unlikely that the IRA ordered this attack. The Sinn Féin leadership clearly will know who carried out this brutal murder. Should they give the names of those involved if they argue that they are criminals? Of course they should in theory considering their stance that the IRA are no longer funtioning, but this would have devastating consequnces from within republican communities and Sinn Féin would risk losing considerable support. My fear is that unless Sinn Féin actively help the Garda on this the Assembly will be brought down by the DUP yet again. Sure it won't take much listening to Paisley Óg today.

This is an interesting debate, and leads to a very valid question.
Every time a bousy who was once in the IRA before decomissioning perpretrates a criminal act, will we jump to say it was an IRA act (as if sanctioned from above) or is it just some scumbags who have turned to gangs to fill the void created by the decomissioning?

I dont know the facts of this case enough to say which this is, but do get the feeling that every act from an ex IRA men will be labelled and IRA act.
Either way, a sickening and cowardly killing.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 06:06:54 PM
Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 06:11:01 PM
I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

The reason I don't believe it was "dissidents" [sic] was because it was needlessly elaborate, and didn't involve guns.

The reason I believe it was the Provies was precisely because it was so elaborate i.e. to avoid involving the very guns which the Provos don't have. And would no longer use if they did have. Which they don't, since Gerry Adams tells us so.

Plus I don't see why the family would want to protect Dissidents who had killed their son, if they believed it was Dissidents who did it. Whereas, if they believed it was the Provos did it, they might be likely to say it was them. Oh yes, I forgot. They are saying it was the Provos... ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 22, 2007, 06:24:54 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 22, 2007, 06:11:01 PM
I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

The reason I don't believe it was "dissidents" [sic] was because it was needlessly elaborate, and didn't involve guns.

The reason I believe it was the Provies was precisely because it was so elaborate i.e. to avoid involving the very guns which the Provos don't have. And would no longer use if they did have. Which they don't, since Gerry Adams tells us so.

Plus I don't see why the family would want to protect Dissidents who had killed their son, if they believed it was Dissidents who did it. Whereas, if they believed it was the Provos did it, they might be likely to say it was them. Oh yes, I forgot. They are saying it was the Provos... ::)

What a load of bollox - maybe you missed the incident in north Belfast recently when they took the head of some fella with a spade? You've obviously no understanding into the nationalist community or the tensions within it and in this case any comment from you is about as useful or as insightful as that from Jim Allister who's obviously following another agenda.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 06:17:05 PM

QuotePints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

No, I would much rather the police would deal with his type but they wont.

So if the cops don't do their job, are death's like this an acceptable risk of rough justice? And what has this lad done that would deserve such rough justice that it would put his life at risk? Giving someone a slap is one thing, and I'm not condoneing even that, but anywhere from 8 to 15 men attacking a guy with iron bars? I've heard through a friend that this lad was no angel, I don't think even his family would try to say that from what I hear, but bludgeoned to death? If anyone thinks that's an acceptable risk of vigilante "jusitce" then we are well and truely through the looking glass.

Quote from: Mentalman on October 22, 2007, 06:23:45 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 06:06:54 PM
Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

Jim would love to see the assembly come down, he's fiercely anti agreement.

Quote
So if the cops don't do their job, are death's like this an acceptable risk of rough justice? And what has this lad done that would deserve such rough justice that it would put his life at risk? Giving someone a slap is one thing, and I'm not condoneing even that, but anywhere from 8 to 15 men attacking a guy with iron bars? I've heard through a friend that this lad was no angel, I don't think even his family would try to say that from what I hear, but bludgeoned to death? If anyone thinks that's an acceptable risk of vigilante "jusitce" then we are well and truely through the looking glass.

I said it wasn't right and I didn't say death was acceptable, those who beat him are just as bad as him.  The local community has been tortured with his type since the IRA ceasefire and I can't pretend to have sympathy.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 06:37:11 PM

Quote from: Mentalman on October 22, 2007, 06:23:45 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 06:06:54 PM
Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

Jim would love to see the assembly come down, he's fiercely anti agreement.

So he's just been as cynical as anyone taking advantage of the death in other words? Ah, I'm with you. Man a complex web. Seems like no-one comes out of this with any credit. I'd have to feel sorry for the lads family.

As to the second part, that wasn't just directed at you Pints, it just seems people's attitude is kind of shrug the shoulders or whatever. I was just wondering where that attitude comes from. Thanks for the honest answer.

Quote from: his holiness nb on October 22, 2007, 06:21:43 PM
This is an interesting debate, and leads to a very valid question.
Every time a bousy who was once in the IRA before decomissioning perpretrates a criminal act, will we jump to say it was an IRA act (as if sanctioned from above) or is it just some scumbags who have turned to gangs to fill the void created by the decomissioning?

I dont know the facts of this case enough to say which this is, but do get the feeling that every act from an ex IRA men will be labelled and IRA act.
Either way, a sickening and cowardly killing.

It might be a fair enough question, HH, were it not for two factors. First, this is not simply the case of "a bousy"(?) who was once inthe IRA doing something wrong. This was (reportedly) at least 10 people, maybe 15, who took their time in beating a young man to death with iron bars. Then add in the possibility that additional people might also have been involved on the periphery - arranging the kidnap and luring him to the barn, acting as lookout, cleaning up the scene of the crime, dumping the body etc.

Which leads to the second factor. No gang of that size can hope to carry out an act of that nature in a place like South Armagh without the names of at least some of those involved getting out. And if there is a connection linking all these conspirators - e.g. drugs, family feud, terrorism etc - that will surely out, too. Which suggests that this gang feels pretty much immune to any sort of sanction from the only two Groups which might possibly mete it out. The first such Group is the Police, but for the gang's immunity to hold, they need to be pretty sure no-one will give information. And which gang in S.Armagh is likely to be most "disciplined" in keeping such information away from the Police or Courts? Hmmm...
Of course, the second such Group which might be in a position to administer some form of sanction is the Provos. Hmmmm...  Does anyone else see some sort of connection, here? Or am I just some sort of naive, conspiracy theorist?

In any case, even if this were nothing to do with the Provos, it is incumbent upon their "good name" as protectors of the Community that anti-social criminals and Dissidents etc not be allowed to go around terrorising the community, even blaming it on them etc?

Therefore, now that the Provos no longer admit to carrying out "policing" themselves, but accept that the PSNI must deal with such crimes, then one might expect former Provos to heed Gerry Adams's public call to bring the perpetrators to justice. If, as I suspect strongly enough to put my mortgage on it, no information of any value should leak to the Police, are we to assume that this must be because nobody amongst the entire community of fromer Provos in S. Armagh actually knows anything about it?
Hmmmm...

Anyhow, must dash now, since I've just seen a dog in the street and if I'm quick I might just catch him to ask whether he knows anything...   ::) 

EG I got half way through your post, stop talking about something you know nothing about.

Have you ever even been to south armagh?

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 22, 2007, 06:57:12 PM
Of course, the second such Group which might be in a position to administer some form of sanction is the Provos. Hmmmm...  Does anyone else see some sort of connection, here? Or am I just some sort of naive, conspiracy theorist?

In any case, even if this were nothing to do with the Provos, it is incumbent upon their "good name" as protectors of the Community that anti-social criminals and Dissidents etc not be allowed to go around terrorising the community, even blaming it on them etc?

Re the 10-15 guys, my point still stands, there could well be bunches of ex provos working together in these gangs outside of the say so of the IRA. Remember many of these guys know and trust each other well from years of IRA activity, it wouldnt surprise me to hear them getting a few "old buddies" together to do this type of thing.
Still doesnt convince me it was an IRA sanctioned killing. (when I say doesnt convince me, I am not saying it wasnt).

Re the above, fair point but surely if they werent involved what sanctions would you suggest they dish out? I'm sure if they werent involved, the last thing they want to do is actually get themselves accused of criminal activity by "punishing" the guys involved.

Secondly, if some ex provos do know who did it but werent involved, it would be their duty as citizens to report this, whether they were ever in the IRA or not. But as per my earlier point, if a guy who used to be a provo knows who did it and says nothing does this make it an IRA cover up?
I emphasise my point here that if an ex IRA man who knows who did it says nothing, possibly for fear of encurring the wrath of some of his old colleagues, I wouldnt exactly class that as an IRA cover up.

We have to face the facts that many retired paramilitaries are not exactly all salt of the earth, law obiding citizens, and must accept that many will break the law for their own purposes.
But I dont think we should jump to blame the group they were once a part of every time something like this happens.

Nor, should I add, should we presume the group werent involved, lets just not jump to conclusions without the full facts.

Quote
Secondly, if some ex provos do know who did it but werent involved, it would be their duty as citizens to report this, whether they were ever in the IRA or not. But as per my earlier point, if a guy who used to be a provo knows who did it and says nothing does this make it an IRA cover up?
I emphasise my point here that if an ex IRA man who knows who did it says nothing, possibly for fear of encurring the wrath of some of his old colleagues, I wouldnt exactly class that as an IRA cover up.

Why should anyone speak to the police about it?
Go into Crossmaglen and any night and you'll see drunk young fellas speeding, doing hand brake turns, mounting footpaths and all that craic  50-100 yards from a police station! and nothing done!  A delivery lorry to a shop stole in broad day light last week, 100 yards from a police station. 
Houses broke into every week since the ceasefire and I don't recall one person, not one person, arrested or questioned for any of them!
Someone kills a thug and you tell me why anyone should speak to the police about it?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 07:38:29 PM

Quote
Secondly, if some ex provos do know who did it but werent involved, it would be their duty as citizens to report this, whether they were ever in the IRA or not. But as per my earlier point, if a guy who used to be a provo knows who did it and says nothing does this make it an IRA cover up?
I emphasise my point here that if an ex IRA man who knows who did it says nothing, possibly for fear of encurring the wrath of some of his old colleagues, I wouldnt exactly class that as an IRA cover up.

Why should anyone speak to the police about it?
Go into Crossmaglen and any night and you'll see drunk young fellas speeding, doing hand brake turns, mounting footpaths and all that craic  50-100 yards from a police station! and nothing done!  A delivery lorry to a shop stole in broad day light last week, 100 yards from a police station. 
Houses broke into every week since the ceasefire and I don't recall one person, not one person, arrested or questioned for any of them!
Someone kills a thug and you tell me why anyone should speak to the police about it?

Pints, I was actually giving reasons for them not to talk to the police.
Just making the point that it might not be the big bad IRA cover up thats being suggested.
Re my "duty as a citizen" comments, I meant from a legal viewpoint.

Quote
Pints, I was actually giving reasons for them not to talk to the police.

i know, i was pointing out your reasons weren't the only ones.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 08:09:37 PM

Quote
Pints, I was actually giving reasons for them not to talk to the police.

i know, i was pointing out your reasons weren't the only ones.

Ah, right ye be!

A few facts now...

SOme time ago, Newsline showed a bit of 'Police Camera Action' stuff in south Armagh.  A stolen car being pursued at top speed through Forkhill.  Our deceased friend behind the wheel.
Sister of the deceased stopped by Gards a few weeks ago and her mad drunk.  Decided to drive on, putting one of them on the bonnet.  She is up in court any day now.
A local man well respected, gave off to her the other night at a taxi rank in crossmaglen.  Deceased and a few friends busted door down, beat him up and thrashed the house.
Another local man equally respected living alone.  Deceased broke into his house and shit on his bed, but not before racking this house also.
A friend of deceased is found dead in a pool a few weeks ago.  On night of funeral, deceased and a few friends racked a house in Creggan and another in Cullyhanna.
Recently, he was apprehended for stoning cars.
His latest act was also on TV when he set alight a llorry containing laundered fuel when it got a puncture.  Not much of a friend of the environment, our deceased. The diesel spilt all over the road, puting lives of motorists in danger.
Local community were dreading Halloween because that's where deceased apparently comes into his own.

I could name many many groups, individuals etc who would have liked to have been at that shed on Sat.   As for Jim McAllister.  Probably the worst most throughother councillor ever to emerge from south Armagh.  His latest act was to back Davy Hyland who stood as an independent.  Him and the family who shot dead vol. kieth Duffy whose anniversary is this week.  McAllister is not a reliable source.  never was. 

We can all have our opinions.  I have named facts and only facts.

Great post (it's a pity they won't put that on newsline) until this point

QuoteHim and the family who shot dead vol. kieth Duffy whose anniversary is this week.

Why don't you tell us how Keith Duffy was shot? 

Sorry Pints. I got carried away there.  His name was Keith Rogers and his birthday occurs around this time, according to the Examiner. 

Thanks for pointing that out.

PS - As a Bridge man, I'm sure you are pointing to more evidence of Cullynhanna thuggery as you witnessed last year...

I didn't pick up on the wrong name - knew who you were on about.

Same question applies - why don't you tell us how he was shot - McAllister was right to speak against him.

Not being from the area it's hard for the rest of us to comment, but nothing can condone the actions of these people, irrespective of the conduct of the deceased. If the perpetrators are 'volunteers' is it not deeply disturbing that the republican movement has lost all control, and these men feel free to carry out such atrocious attacks?

It's been a concern for a number of years that the republican movement have allowed all the scumbags of the area to get involved with them and to use the IRA's name for their criminal activities i.e. Keith Rogers.

Does one in 20 people believe this nonsense that the IRA/ republicans  were not involved.  What other organisation could get 10/15 people togeather to carry out an action like this.  Of course I could be totally wrong - we all known that the IRA/Republicans don't do petrol smugling - diesel laundering - counterfeiting - illegal distilling - cattle rustling - protection rackets - drug smugling anymore if they ever did it before. Gerry Adams says it so it must be true - As all teenagers say - YE - Right

Quote from: zoyler on October 22, 2007, 09:26:07 PM
Does one in 20 people believe this nonsense that the IRA/ republicans  were not involved.  What other organisation could get 10/15 people togeather to carry out an action like this.  Of course I could be totally wrong - we all known that the IRA/Republicans don't do petrol smugling - diesel laundering - counterfeiting - illegal distilling - cattle rustling - protection rackets - drug smugling anymore if they ever did it before. Gerry Adams says it so it must be true - As all teenagers say - YE - Right

I agree zoyler, this could cause the downfall of Stormont yet again but can Gerry et. al convince Unionists that they are squeaky clean? A tough task. We're not idiots, Adams and McGuinness know who these fellas are and securing their conviction could be vital to ensuring political stability.

Quote from: zoyler on October 22, 2007, 09:26:07 PM
Does one in 20 people believe this nonsense that the IRA/ republicans  were not involved.  What other organisation could get 10/15 people togeather to carry out an action like this.  Of course I could be totally wrong - we all known that the IRA/Republicans don't do petrol smugling - diesel laundering - counterfeiting - illegal distilling - cattle rustling - protection rackets - drug smugling anymore if they ever did it before. Gerry Adams says it so it must be true - As all teenagers say - YE - Right

it isn't that hard to round up 10-15 people on friday night in any of the pubs around south armagh, you only need to walk into a bar full of drunk wannabes and ask the question!!

Sad times for our whole community. Paul Quinn RIP. He was only a young lad and no young lad deserves a death like that. No animal should be killed like that.
The 10 or 15 bastards that beat a man to death should hang their heads in shame. They are a disgrace to the IRA (if they were involved?  :-*).
He was a bad egg but with time he would have settled down and behaved himself.
I feel for his family. I hope God gives them the strenght to deal with this heavy burden.
As to who was involved - who knows? One phone call and I knew.

You know what...if what seany is saying is true, then I have no sympathy him. I'm not saying that it's right (two wrongs and all that) but somehow the world is a better place without a boy like that.  If the police are not protecting these communities from boys like him then I can see why people take it into their own hands to deal with anti social behavior like that.

Quote from: SouthArmaghBandit on October 22, 2007, 10:26:22 PM
Sad times for our whole community. Paul Quinn RIP. He was only a young lad and no young lad deserves a death like that. No animal should be killed like that. The 10 or 15 bastards that beat a man to death should hang their heads in shame. They are a disgrace to the IRA (if they were involved?  :-*).
He was a bad egg but with time he would have settled down and behaved himself.
I feel for his family. I hope God gives them the strenght to deal with this heavy burden.
As to who was involved - who knows? One phone call and I knew.

Quote from: theskull1 on October 22, 2007, 10:28:41 PM
You know what...if what seany is saying is true, then I have no sympathy him. I'm not saying that it's right (two wrongs and all that) but somehow the world is a better place without a boy like that.  If the police are not protecting these communities from boys like him then I can see why people take it into their own hands to deal with anti social behavior like that.

Skull you cannot reconcile the two statements. Maybe the world is a better place - maybe thats why our policing needs a radical overhaul. But theres 15 men out there with blood on their hands, regardless of what community they are from. Have you any idea what a man beaten with 30 hands and feet, and god knows how many iron bars looks like? All smashed open and broken? It must have looked like a scene from a horror movie. Have you any idea what animalistic thuggery it must take to continue to beat someone whose arms and legs may already be broken? Theres one bad wee f**ker off the streets alright, theres 15 more evil bastards than him sitting down to tea this evening. A kid of 21. A bad kid, but a kid none the less.

I know I know pukoon ...can't disagree with you. I didn't say I was proud of thinking it  :-\. I think the hatred and rage people had for him must have taken it out of hand.

Pints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

PS - 5 Sams.  That was the deceased definitely behind the wheel of that car.  No doubt whatsoever. 

I'm not offering any justification for this battering.  In fact those who did it are as dangerous as the boy they killed.  i am just pointing out that like mny of his ilk, he had a lot of enemies.  After he did the damage to those houses, 2 of which were pensioners houses,  he was told to pay for their repair, or leave the country.  He laughed at it and told them to f**k off. 

A real real bad boy.

I am still not justifying his death, just once again pointing out facts.  There is a tendency in this country to beatify bad whores after they had breathed their last.  I am not going to do this.  This boy was bad news and was going to be the cause of someone's death.

QuotePints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

Aye that's what the ceasefire soldiers would have you believe.  Keith Rodgers was 16 in 1994 - who do you think he was fighting? 
He belonged to a smuggling gang of ceasefire soldiers, he took a gun to go and shoot a member of another smuggling gang, the man he was going to shoot took the gun of him and shot him in self defence.

I don't know what happened here but it sounds like a real mess. A young fella lays dead in a shed and his parents are distraught. This is not the Ireland of Equals we voted for?
Sort it out for fecks sake Donagh.

Quote from: Seany on October 22, 2007, 11:05:38 PM
Pints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

PS - 5 Sams.  That was the deceased definitely behind the wheel of that car.  No doubt whatsoever. 

I'm not offering any justification for this battering.  In fact those who did it are as dangerous as the boy they killed.  i am just pointing out that like mny of his ilk, he had a lot of enemies.  After he did the damage to those houses, 2 of which were pensioners houses,  he was told to pay for their repair, or leave the country.  He laughed at it and told them to f**k off. 

A real real bad boy.

I am still not justifying his death, just once again pointing out facts.  There is a tendency in this country to beatify bad whores after they had breathed their last.  I am not going to do this.  This boy was bad news and was going to be the cause of someone's death.

No beatification of the victim on my part Seany, just a healthy respect for human life. Just as if someone took one of the 15 and paid a similar debt on that person. None of it is acceptable. When summary justice becomes acceptable, who draws the line? Where does a kneecapping turn into a lost leg, or someone bleeding to death. When does some kid (who obviously needs to learn some manners from somwhere) getting  few slaps turn into a murder?
On another point; on whose authority should anyone be told to leave this country? Are these the same guardians of civic virtues that lured a man to his death? :-\

Puckoon what you're saying is perfectly sensible but it's easy to be sensible when you're not part of the community that was terrorised by this thug, what do you expect people to do if the police will do nothing?

South Armagh is a strange place indeed. Where they accept their children being beaten to death by masked gangs without trail or jury. A strange and terrible place.

You are sick people if you think that type of behaviour is in any way acceptable. SICK!

Feel really uncomfortable discussing topics like this because ethically, what the likes of puckoon is saying is 100% right. But why in the back of my mind am I thinking if he lived in my area and terrorised decent people on a regular basis the way he seemed to have done in S Armagh then good riddance to rubbish like that? It's hard for me anyway to be black and white about this

I dont know Pints but not what they did, thats for sure. Are you saying its the people collectively? That this was the will of the south armagh community?
How exactly can there be so much knowledge (including tv footage according to seany) of this anti social behaviour, yet no interference from the police? That really is the crux of the issue.

Let me try and be hypothetical. This is a can of worms I dont want to be too deep into, but what appears to have happened just gets me in the pit of my stomach.  Ive often wondered what I would do if I was personally terrorised by someone. Could I kill them? yes, in the heat of the moment. Not in cold blood. Maybe Id have more understanding if a nephew of the old man whose house he wrecked, or a brother of the man who he beat up on, went after him in the street and one on one fought the deceased, or even killed him.  Its just to be lured to your death, by friends who were threatened, and then dispatched in such a brutal manner, that I cant get my head around.

Does it make sense that the end result isnt what really is getting to me (it sounds like the deceased would have needed alot of luck or a major change of behaviour to avoid an early demise), but rather the lynch mob mentality that allowed it to happen in such a fashion, and that no one will ever be accountable?

Anyways, Its not my community so I dont know the ins and outs. I just dont know how important they can be when it comes to a crime like this.

Quote from: Silky on October 22, 2007, 11:29:22 PM
South Armagh is a strange place indeed. Where they accept their children being beaten to death by masked gangs without trail or jury. A strange and terrible place.

You are sick people if you think that type of behaviour is in any way acceptable. SICK!

You want us to cry for him?

QuoteI dont know Pints but not what they did, thats for sure. Are you saying its the people collectively? That this was the will of the south armagh community?

I wouldn't dream of speaking on behalf of the south armagh community but personally I think it was a horrific killing when a couple of slaps would have done the job, I also think those that done it are just as bad as him, that said, I won't be crying for him and as someone said above, it's a better place without him.

What you say is correct, we should be discussing why the police would not do anything about it.  Why do they allow what goes on in Cross at night, 50 yards from the police station?  Do you think that will make Newsline or UTV Live?

As I've said .....I wouldn't have thought that anybody thought anybody was going to be killed before the beating and that the ahtred people had for him and his actions took it out of control. I sound like I'm justifying it...I'm not...I'm confused

Well heres a question:
Why in a place, so long feared by the British Government, and the majority of people who drove through it, is this type of activity happening. Id have imagined that there would still be so many well connected men around Cross, that no one would dream of stepping out of line? Men whose word would ultimately be obeyed (whether it should be relied on as a policing alternative or not is a different matter) How is the thug flourishing in Cross?

This is 2007 and we are discussing Medieval punishments in South Armagh?

Beating a 21 year old man to death with iron bars in a shed is a bad thing.

BAD THING. BAD THING. BAD THING.

Do you get it? Beating a 21 year old man to death with iron bars in a shed is a bad thing. It's not acceptable in the 21st Century.
This is discusting. It's more discusting that posters like POG think it's acceptable. You are no better than the animals who committed this murder!

These boys don't remember the provos when they were putting their lives at risk and knew how to take out five or six of the enemy with a well placed bomb, or a sniper or whatever.  many of them don't even know a thing about the war.  the boys who killed him are as dangerous as he was.  My point is re Cullyhanna.  A place where law seems to have completely broken down.  A community that is hardened to thuggery and sheer badness.  Even their football team has a reputation as being vicious bastards. 

At least during the struggle, there was a certain element of law and order.  there's none now.  i wonder what will halloween night be like this year because in recent years the place has gone nuts.

Quote from: Puckoon on October 22, 2007, 11:48:20 PM
Well heres a question:
Why in a place, so long feared by the British Government, and the majority of people who drove through it, is this type of activity happening. Id have imagined that there would still be so many well connected men around Cross, that no one would dream of stepping out of line? Men whose word would ultimately be obeyed (whether it should be relied on as a policing alternative or not is a different matter) How is the thug flourishing in Cross?

Very simple, we'd no police force for years, they were only interested in the IRA - anyone acting the **** where dealt with by the IRA.
The IRA don't do that now, no police force, no law in order.  Thugs behave how they want.  Cullyhanna went to the dogs a few years ago, Cross is heading the same way.

QuoteThis is discusting. It's more discusting that posters like POG think it's acceptable. You are no better than the animals who committed this murder!

Where did I say it was acceptable?  I don't think it's acceptable but I ask again, what do you think is going to happen in a community when you've a thug running riot and when the police will do NOTHING?  Do you think everyone in that community is going to put up with it?

Quote from: Puckoon on October 22, 2007, 11:48:20 PM
Well heres a question:
Why in a place, so long feared by the British Government, and the majority of people who drove through it, is this type of activity happening. Id have imagined that there would still be so many well connected men around Cross, that no one would dream of stepping out of line? Men whose word would ultimately be obeyed (whether it should be relied on as a policing alternative or not is a different matter) How is the thug flourishing in Cross?

Surely you could answer that one yourself puckoon? The threat of the heavy hand has been lifted since SF went into government with the DUP. They are thriving because of the vacuum which exists in policing. A sceptic would think that the police want these communities to suffer and disintegrate ( call it payback if you will)

Bacon ...do you not think your are over simplifying things and being a little bit self righteous. Everybody is saying it was wrong but you have take a broader view of things and understand how all the domino's got lined up and this terrible incident happened

If you don't think this is acceptable I apologise for misrepresenting you.

You never answered my question

Quotewhat do you think is going to happen in a community when you've a thug running riot and when the police will do NOTHING?  Do you think everyone in that community is going to put up with it?

You and a lot of others come on here to criticise those who done it (and rightly so) but the real problem here is the police, I see few questioning why they will do nothing or criticising them. 

I dont come from South Armagh so therefore i cant say what happens on a daily basis down there.

Howver what happened to the mudered man was wrong absolutely wrong and under no circumstances should this be supported.

Where i come from we have many similar problems and many times i wish these people were dealt with on a somewhat stronger basis,but they cant be because unelected unaccoutable hooded men can never have the say over life and death.

These so called arbiters of justice have to be condemned,simply because if they are willing to do this to that fella what would they do a member of your family if they crossed them

Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

Thats absolutely spot on couldnt agree more.

Quote from: Lecale2 on October 23, 2007, 12:29:55 AM
Als die Nazis die Kommunisten holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Kommunist.

Als sie die Sozialdemokraten einsperrten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Sozialdemokrat.

Als sie die Gewerkschafter holten,
habe ich nicht protestiert;
ich war ja kein Gewerkschafter.

Als sie die Juden holten,
habe ich geschwiegen;
ich war ja kein Jude.

Als sie mich holten,
gab es keinen mehr, der protestieren konnte.

I hear Conor Murphy is coming for Guillem next...

Quote from: Seany on October 22, 2007, 08:29:51 PM
A few facts now...

SOme time ago, Newsline showed a bit of 'Police Camera Action' stuff in south Armagh.  A stolen car being pursued at top speed through Forkhill.  Our deceased friend behind the wheel.

Was that the one when the RUC followed the car to a crossroads (presumably marking the border) at which AGS pulled out and started chasing him? Remember seeing that alright.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 11:09:37 PM

QuotePints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

Aye that's what the ceasefire soldiers would have you believe.  Keith Rodgers was 16 in 1994 - who do you think he was fighting? 
He belonged to a smuggling gang of ceasefire soldiers, he took a gun to go and shoot a member of another smuggling gang, the man he was going to shoot took the gun of him and shot him in self defence.

So did Keith Rogers die a criminal or a hero? A quick google for his name will give some idea, certainly from the republican movements perspective.

What is the difference between the gang Keith Rogers was part of and the gang that killed Paul Quinn?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 11:56:59 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on October 22, 2007, 11:48:20 PM
Well heres a question:
Why in a place, so long feared by the British Government, and the majority of people who drove through it, is this type of activity happening. Id have imagined that there would still be so many well connected men around Cross, that no one would dream of stepping out of line? Men whose word would ultimately be obeyed (whether it should be relied on as a policing alternative or not is a different matter) How is the thug flourishing in Cross?

Very simple, we'd no police force for years, they were only interested in the IRA - anyone acting the **** where dealt with by the IRA.
The IRA don't do that now, no police force, no law in order.  Thugs behave how they want.  Cullyhanna went to the dogs a few years ago, Cross is heading the same way.

QuoteThis is discusting. It's more discusting that posters like POG think it's acceptable. You are no better than the animals who committed this murder!

Where did I say it was acceptable?  I don't think it's acceptable but I ask again, what do you think is going to happen in a community when you've a thug running riot and when the police will do NOTHING?  Do you think everyone in that community is going to put up with it?

the same is happening in Derry city, where the young thugs and vandals are running riot around the town, but the cops will not do a thing to stop them,
however you will find them up around the houses of the former IRA men, goading and harassing them...

its gone from 7 to now 15-20 men that beat this young lad the other night.
If some or all of the guys were IRA men, so what - if they are also members of ulster rugby - do we blame the RFU ?

what a load of finger pointing bollix

the point is, the lad should not have been killed , and this is all as a result of the ineptitude of the psni (aka ruc - which still has yet to be regulated at the top).

In Cross at present there are gangs of young lads running about every weekend acting like scum, there has been public meetings held locally about this. Cullyhanna is worse again. While what happened should never have happened, the PSNI have to be held responsible as well. Local people justifiably have no confidence in them to deal with petty crime.

Paul Quinn was no angel, neither were his friends. But in a properly policed local community there is much less chance that this would have escalated in this manner. What he was given the beating for wasn't over drugs or 'political struggles'. It was over localised petty crime.

Its an awful pity that its come to this.

Quote from: thebandit on October 23, 2007, 10:57:51 AM
What he was given the beating for wasn't over drugs or 'political struggles'. It was over localised petty crime.

Holy shit!!!! thats some punishment for 'petty' crime. And some beating where they break almost every bone in his body. its a few steps past giving a lad a few slaps to teach him a lesson

Quote from: ludermor on October 23, 2007, 11:16:01 AM

Quote from: thebandit on October 23, 2007, 10:57:51 AM
What he was given the beating for wasn't over drugs or 'political struggles'. It was over localised petty crime.

Holy shit!!!! thats some punishment for 'petty' crime. And some beating where they break almost every bone in his body. its a few steps past giving a lad a few slaps to teach him a lesson

Thats for sure and certain

Quote from: saffron sam2 on October 23, 2007, 08:37:29 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 11:09:37 PM

QuotePints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

Aye that's what the ceasefire soldiers would have you believe.  Keith Rodgers was 16 in 1994 - who do you think he was fighting? 
He belonged to a smuggling gang of ceasefire soldiers, he took a gun to go and shoot a member of another smuggling gang, the man he was going to shoot took the gun of him and shot him in self defence.

So did Keith Rogers die a criminal or a hero? A quick google for his name will give some idea, certainly from the republican movements perspective.

What is the difference between the gang Keith Rogers was part of and the gang that killed Paul Quinn?

in my opinion he died a criminal.  There is no difference between the gang he was part of and the gang that killed Quinn.

Some criminals/hoods torment and destroy communities and peoples lives, they have no fear of the police or judicial system and in days gone by had no fear of "paramilitary" retribution (whatever form it took - kneecapping, shotting, expulsion etc) when you have people like this what do you do??

I am not condoning this event but asking a question of all of you.

obviously you take them to a shed and get 10 of your mates and beat them to death.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 01:30:35 PM

Quote from: saffron sam2 on October 23, 2007, 08:37:29 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 11:09:37 PM

QuotePints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

Aye that's what the ceasefire soldiers would have you believe.  Keith Rodgers was 16 in 1994 - who do you think he was fighting? 
He belonged to a smuggling gang of ceasefire soldiers, he took a gun to go and shoot a member of another smuggling gang, the man he was going to shoot took the gun of him and shot him in self defence.

So did Keith Rogers die a criminal or a hero? A quick google for his name will give some idea, certainly from the republican movements perspective.

What is the difference between the gang Keith Rogers was part of and the gang that killed Paul Quinn?

in my opinion he died a criminal.  There is no difference between the gang he was part of and the gang that killed Quinn.

pints, although I used a quote from you, my question wasn't specifically directed to you, but thanks for answering.  Can't disagree with your answers either.

I suppose my point would be, if Saturday's events had turned out differently and resulted in the death of one of the assailants, would we now be looking forward to something like this

http://www.burnsmoley.com/volunteers/rogers.php (http://www.burnsmoley.com/volunteers/rogers.php)

QuotePosted on: Today at 01:38:44 PMPosted by: Gaoth Dobhair Abu  
Insert Quote
Some criminals/hoods torment and destroy communities and peoples lives, they have no fear of the police or judicial system and in days gone by had no fear of "paramilitary" retribution (whatever form it took - kneecapping, shotting, expulsion etc) when you have people like this what do you do??

I am not condoning this event but asking a question of all of you.

In normal civilised society these hoods, criminals etc would be subject to the powers of all aspects of the criminal justice system.  For such a system to suceed you need two things, individuals within the system who are working to make it effective and the common man co-operating and respecting the system.  The latter will not be achieved whenever the former is not present.  This leads to the situation that exists in South Armagh, and is a common feature of areas world wide.

I have not been socialising in Cross very much in recent years, and if I have it has generally been in the club house, but I have had stories recounted to me from friends and family that the Square is a dangerous place to be late at night at the weekends.  There has been a general increase in anti-social behaviour and thuggery, something which had not been there for years.  The police seem unwilling to become involved and are more interested in setting up speed traps on the Cullaville Road than dealing with the real problems that are facing the area.  There has been an influx of people from outside of the town and an increased amount of foreign nationals.  Many of the foreign nationals are fine people and have blended in well, but others have brought a certain problems to the area.  

I do not agree with paramiltarianism but the control that was held on local youths for years has been lost.  This is no different to areas such as West Belfast and the Ardoyne.  The Government and SF have to work harder than they are at the minute and stop petty squabbles such as the Irish language one.  The PSNI have to take a firmer hand and stand by their commitment for equal policing.  They may have been bombed and shot at in Cross but my mother did not do it nor many other people in the area and they deserve proper protction under the law from gangs of thugs.

What happened to Paul Quinn was wrong, but would not have happened in an environment as I described earlier on and it is time for the people at the top to start seeing these issues.

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 23, 2007, 02:09:24 PM
In normal civilised society these hoods, criminals etc would be subject to the powers of all aspects of the criminal justice system.

What should happen to the people who murdered paul quinn?

Quote from: DMarsden on October 23, 2007, 02:52:09 PM

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on October 23, 2007, 02:09:24 PM
In normal civilised society these hoods, criminals etc would be subject to the powers of all aspects of the criminal justice system.

What should happen to the people who murdered paul quinn?

life jail sentences obv

but the psni need to start jailing these wee anti social thugs too , to nip the root cause of the problem in Cross, south armagh, Derry city and all the other towns, villages and areas across NI.
The same problems exist in the south too - but as the cops are trying to combat such crime, its only a problem in a certain number of areas where the cops need more resources and perhaps more powers (limerick, west /north Dublin etc).

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 23, 2007, 02:56:00 PM
life jail sentences obv

Its never going to happen of course

 

QuotePosted by: DMarsden 
Insert Quote
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on Today at 02:09:24 PM
In normal civilised society these hoods, criminals etc would be subject to the powers of all aspects of the criminal justice system.

In a normal situation they would be actively persued by the police, who with the assistance of witnesses etc would see the ones who commited this terrible crime, convicted and sentenced accordingly.

The unfortunate reality is there is a latent disregard among the people in pwoer in respect of South Armagh.  This has resulted in a laissez faire asttitude from the police(ie couldn't care less).  Consequently you have the scenario that people do not trust the police and therefore don't want anything to do with them.  There is still a lot of suspicion among the general public in the area about the police because of the treatment that has been handed out to innocents over the last few decades.  It is incumbent on the police to get out among the people and try to gain their trust.  Instead, they sit on their fat holes, clocking up fines and saying how wonderful they all are policing the "notorious bandit country", while in reality they are doing nothing of the sort.

You get the very odd decent cop in Cross, there was a coloured fella in his 40s/50s there a couple of years ago and he was generally ok.

I got a lecture about 'anti-social driving' from him about 3 years ago - He was dead right, and instead of taking me in or whatever, he got me to agree with him that is was stupid - a far better approach.

Quote from: DMarsden on October 23, 2007, 03:05:02 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 23, 2007, 02:56:00 PM
life jail sentences obv

Its never going to happen of course

and who is to blame for that?

the IRA, Sinn Fein , GAA? ??
::)

Lads, Who or what is the IRA anymore? is it the people who were involved in the troubles and are still members or are new people joining and if so for what?

The reality in south armagh is that 99% of the people would hand these scum in in the morning, testify or point the finger, if the were not living in the manufactured state of fear that we do. rightly or wrongly the ordinary people cannot conform to the laws of a normal society and that fog of fear has been created by the republican movement. obviously there was a time when this situation had a desired effect in terms of outlawing the tout but surely we have to move on? the republican movement need to take the lead in showing people that cooporation with authority is not only ok, but vital if we are to get any decent way of life. there has been no leadership in this respect from sinn fein and if this trend continues, can they really expect to retain their support on the ground?

Quote from: DMarsden on October 23, 2007, 04:39:11 PM

The reality in south armagh is that 99% of the people would hand these scum in in the morning, testify or point the finger, if the were not living in the manufactured state of fear that we do. rightly or wrongly the ordinary people cannot conform to the laws of a normal society and that fog of fear has been created by the republican movement. obviously there was a time when this situation had a desired effect in terms of outlawing the tout but surely we have to move on? the republican movement need to take the lead in showing people that cooporation with authority is not only ok, but vital if we are to get any decent way of life. there has been no leadership in this respect from sinn fein and if this trend continues, can they really expect to retain their support on the ground?

the republican movement already have...
they have backed SF's endorsement of the psni (now fully looking like it was the load of bollix the dissidents at that time claimed it was)

the prob is these people that are masquerading under the pretense of being IRA (when IRA does not actually function any more, and cannot) and are the ones intimidating locals
but the psni , even when told are quite happy to do nothing about it.
If this was your loyalist/unionist areas, they'd not be so slow to help.

psni needs rapid reforms, from the top !

Quotethere was a coloured fella

what is this, 1972?

Talk of political endorsements couldn't be more irrelevent to the ordinary man. in a day to day context, the only type that matters, there is no precedent or encourgement for people to come forward, point the finger at a republican and receive wholehearted support from republican circles for doing the right thing. the impression remains that every clown with a republican link is beyond accountability for everything from money & diesel laundering to antisocial behaviour of the most sickening nature.

Answer me this DMarsden, say for talk sake that everyone felt compelled to come forward, what are they going to tell the police?

This young lad was beaten to death in a remote country farm, the only witnesses to the event would have been the perpetrators, they were probably masked, all the specualtion of the day cannot convict someone.

I feel sympathy for the family and disgust towards the thugs who did it, but calling on encouraging people to come forward is naive of the nature of events.  This is not like the McCartney case where someone was fighting in a public bar, it was deliberately kept secretive to avoid detection.

QuoteLads, Who or what is the IRA anymore? is it the people who were involved in the troubles and are still members or are new people joining and if so for what?

In south armagh the people who'd tell you they were the IRA are those, like Keith Rodgers, who were children when the ceasefires took place but who find the name of the IRA useful to carry out criminal activities (i.e. smuggling) and to threaten their criminal rivals.

Lynch

Quote
they have backed SF's endorsement of the psni (now fully looking like it was the load of bollix the dissidents at that time claimed it was)

the prob is these people that are masquerading under the pretense of being IRA (when IRA does not actually function any more, and cannot) and are the ones intimidating locals
but the psni , even when told are quite happy to do nothing about it.

Sinn Fein backing the PSNI is no good when the allow these thugs to become members and be their public face i.e. you'll get them at the doors at election time.

Marsden is 100% correct imho.

are you saying that lets say a farmer who saw vehicles and registrations going to that diesel laundering plant, sorry remote farm house, should not come forward and say so? he absolutely should and anyone else who may have seen the tiniest detail should too. if we're any good at all we should then be standing shoulder to shoulder with them

Quote from: Aghdavoyle on October 23, 2007, 05:53:32 PM

Marsden is 100% correct imho.

are you saying that lets say a farmer who saw vehicles and registrations going to that diesel laundering plant, sorry remote farm house, should not come forward and say so? he absolutely should and anyone else who may have seen the tiniest detail should too. if we're any good at all we should then be standing shoulder to shoulder with them

So then charges are brought and maybe one or two end up with a conviction.  What happens to this farmer?  The police are powerless without credible information and the public are understandably reluctant to pass this information on.  A vicious circle were the vigilante rules.

QuoteSo did Keith Rogers die a criminal or a hero?

Who was Keith Rogers and what happened to him? According to a Republican website he was a role model and a hero!

To quote myself...

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 22, 2007, 11:09:37 PM

QuotePints.  Not too sure what you're getin at.  I thought Keith Rogers was defending his community or something like that.  There is a march every year for him which is well attended.  I have to admit I don't know all the facts of that one, so you might let me know.

Aye that's what the ceasefire soldiers would have you believe.  Keith Rodgers was 16 in 1994 - who do you think he was fighting? 
He belonged to a smuggling gang of ceasefire soldiers, he took a gun to go and shoot a member of another smuggling gang, the man he was going to shoot took the gun of him and shot him in self defence.

Quote from: Sandy Hill on October 23, 2007, 06:25:26 PM

QuoteSo did Keith Rogers die a criminal or a hero?

Who was Keith Rogers and what happened to him? According to a Republican website he was a role model and a hero!

According to a (usually well-informed) journalist, Rogers and the circumstances of his death were not all that some would have us believe:

IRA rift led to gunfightmurder

Henry McDonald, Ireland editor
Sunday March 16, 2003

Observer

A member of the IRA's Army Council sent out the men who were killed and wounded in a shoot-out in south Armagh last week.
The leading figure ordered one of the Provisional IRA's units, an eight-man 'punishment' squad armed with baseball bats and guns, to attack a number of men who were also aligned to its south Armagh brigade.

Contrary to media reports that the shooting at Cullaville last Wednesday was a dispute between the IRA and 'criminal elements', the gunfight outside a petrol station involved rival Provos. One of those who fired back at the 'punishment squad' is the former commanding officer of an IRA battalion in south Armagh.

The murder of 24-year-old Keith Rogers, from Hackballscross, marks the most serious split in the IRA since the Real IRA was formed in 1997. Those behind his murder did not belong to any dissident republican group and until very recently had remained loyal to the Provisionals' leadership.

The murdered man and his comrades were said to be loyal to the member of the Army Council. Officially the dispute is over the use of land close to his property which straddles the border. But disagreements have been simmering for some time in the region over the proceeds of money from smuggling.

One republican family in south Armagh with a reputation for violence and dedication to the 'armed struggle' has been vociferous in its criticism of the leadership. Security and republican sources say this family commands respect among IRA members who share its misgivings about current policies and the concentration of wealth in the hands of a leading figure in the south Armagh brigade.

Two weeks ago the squad that targeted this family attacked another member of the republican family who was shot in both ankles and elbows. http://observer.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4626209-102285,00.html

P.S. Rogers was 15 when the IRA announced their (final) ceasefire. That means he was recruited, trained and "deployed" after SF told us that the IRA was now committed to exclusively peaceful activities...

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 05:50:33 PM
[In south armagh the people who'd tell you they were the IRA are those, like Keith Rodgers, who were children when the ceasefires took place but who find the name of the IRA useful to carry out criminal activities (i.e. smuggling) and to threaten their criminal rivals.

Pints, Keith Rogers was 24/25 when he died I think

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 05:50:33 PM


Lynch

Quote
they have backed SF's endorsement of the psni (now fully looking like it was the load of bollix the dissidents at that time claimed it was)

the prob is these people that are masquerading under the pretense of being IRA (when IRA does not actually function any more, and cannot) and are the ones intimidating locals
but the psni , even when told are quite happy to do nothing about it.

Sinn Fein backing the PSNI is no good when the allow these thugs to become members and be their public face i.e. you'll get them at the doors at election time.

Thats what I mean POG.
I was completely against supporting the ruc/psni - as I hadnt seen anything change

but we were told by SF that this was to change, that they had to make the leap of faith (yet again) and things would change.
Well this still has not happened.
the powers at the top of the tree in the ruc/psni still cling on to their posts and power, the wholesale reform of this corrupt institution has yet to happen.
I am getting a lot of flack from friends and relations for talking up the need for all nationalists and republicans to back the 'psni', this 'leap of faith' has been a f**king disaster as I get daily reports on Derry city being left to thugs and the only time the cops are seen is when a couple of harmless kids fight in the city centre of a saturday night and they arrest 1 !
other times theres traffic stopping police roadblocks/speed and licence checks on the city side to annoy the taigs on their way home from shopping at 5-7pm on a sat evening.
Also the comments made to provoke people that should never come from an impartial police force.
Fcuk its getting worse, and while the leap of faith for the ceasefire and also for the decommissioning was proven to be a good move - this one to support the psni has backfired disasterously as they are still the ruc in b special mentality mode.

From what I am hearing, this is the same in the republican hotbeds throughout NI.  >:(

its just sad that these cops and orange order/loyalist/unionists cannot let go of the past like we have and be impartial - as is their job (as its not the nationalist/catholic cops that are at fault here)

I'm getting a bit sick of hearing that the row in which Keith Rogers died happened at a petrol station. It started there but the shot was fired across the road at the entrance to Malachy Conlon Park. Rogers wasnt shot by his own gun either. This stuff is common knowledge. At the time the newspapers just regurgitated each other's information

cant help but wonder if this had happened in Cork or Limerick would the DUP be as keen to scaremonger on collapsing an executive?

Its a Garda issue isnt it? Murdered in Monaghan?

The people fighting in the city centre on a Saturday night are the thugs Lynchboy.

Quote from: thebandit on October 24, 2007, 10:11:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 05:50:33 PM
[In south armagh the people who'd tell you they were the IRA are those, like Keith Rodgers, who were children when the ceasefires took place but who find the name of the IRA useful to carry out criminal activities (i.e. smuggling) and to threaten their criminal rivals.

Pints, Keith Rogers was 24/25 when he died I think

He was 24, leaving him 15 in 1994 when the IRA first declared their ceasefire.
I don't see what it matters if people say it happened at the petrol station, as it was across the street from the petrol station.

Ketih Rogers with several other men went to shoot a criminal rival, the gun was taken off him in a struggle and he was shot!
Fact
And the amount of shite talk about him at the time, and still, is sickening.
A soldier of Ireland my hole!

Paul Quinns wake was massive lastnite, young lads out directing traffic etc...
Thing i was surprised most by was the coffin was opened, but with a white/see-through veil covering the body!!
Dont quote me on this but the reports of Pauls friends gathering at the house of one of the suspects is meant to be a load of b8lls, made up by the owner???#
The young lad was a bit of a maggot, but nobody deserved that!!!

I don't see what it matters if people say it happened at the petrol station, as it was across the street from the petrol station.

[/quote]

Because the people who own the petrol station dont deserve to have their name unfairly associated with what happened

Does An Fear Rua imply that the PSNI be not involved because the actual murder was in Monaghan.  Is he suggesting that the band of thugs who carried out the murder could not be the IRA from South Armagh because they are a partionist body who would not operate across the border? Ye - right.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 24, 2007, 06:06:45 PM

Quote from: thebandit on October 24, 2007, 10:11:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 05:50:33 PM
[In south armagh the people who'd tell you they were the IRA are those, like Keith Rodgers, who were children when the ceasefires took place but who find the name of the IRA useful to carry out criminal activities (i.e. smuggling) and to threaten their criminal rivals.

Pints, Keith Rogers was 24/25 when he died I think

He was 24, leaving him 15 in 1994 when the IRA first declared their ceasefire.
I don't see what it matters if people say it happened at the petrol station, as it was across the street from the petrol station.

Keith Rogers with several other men went to shoot a criminal rival, the gun was taken off him in a struggle and he was shot!
Fact
And the amount of shit talk about him at the time, and still, is sickening.
A soldier of Ireland my hole!

pints I'm a bit sick of you trying your hardest to bring Kieth Rodgers into this, Keith had nothing to do with this, when you talk of him like that you didnt know him , Keith was a lovely fellow and FACT is he was not shot with his own gun and another fact KNOW IT ALL is that the only gun there that day was the one that shot him from the other party. So can you please let this matter rest and let Keith Rest in Peace

Quote from: RICH TEA on October 25, 2007, 05:29:29 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 24, 2007, 06:06:45 PM

Quote from: thebandit on October 24, 2007, 10:11:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 23, 2007, 05:50:33 PM
[In south armagh the people who'd tell you they were the IRA are those, like Keith Rodgers, who were children when the ceasefires took place but who find the name of the IRA useful to carry out criminal activities (i.e. smuggling) and to threaten their criminal rivals.

Pints, Keith Rogers was 24/25 when he died I think

He was 24, leaving him 15 in 1994 when the IRA first declared their ceasefire.
I don't see what it matters if people say it happened at the petrol station, as it was across the street from the petrol station.

Keith Rogers with several other men went to shoot a criminal rival, the gun was taken off him in a struggle and he was shot!
Fact
And the amount of shit talk about him at the time, and still, is sickening.
A soldier of Ireland my hole!

pints I'm a bit sick of you trying your hardest to bring Kieth Rodgers into this, Keith had nothing to do with this, when you talk of him like that you either don't know him or on the other end, Keith was a lovely fellow and fact is he was not shot with his own gun and another fact know it all is that the only gun there that day was the one that shot him from the other party. So can you please let this matter rest and let Keith Rest in Peace

Hear Hear

THANKS BANDIT, WAS JUST SO SICK OF IT

Quotepints I'm a bit sick of you trying your hardest to bring Kieth Rodgers into this, Keith had nothing to do with this, when you talk of him like that you either don't know him or on the other end, Keith was a lovely fellow and fact is he was not shot with his own gun and another fact know it all is that the only gun there that day was the one that shot him from the other party. So can you please let this matter rest and let Keith Rest in Peace

1.  I'm not interested in bringing Keith Rodgers into it.
2.  Keith Rodgers gang went to cullaville - with a gun to give a criminal rival a punishment beating (like they done with his brother)
3.  The gun was taken off Kieth Rodgers in the struggle and he was shot.

End of Story.

Global warming can also be attributed to the IRA. Aswell, ya know like the little bits of fluff that gather around your tumble-dryer? Thats the IRA too, Sinn Fein strongly deny this though.

QuoteDont quote me on this but the reports of Pauls friends gathering at the house of one of the suspects is meant to be a load of b8lls, made up by the owner???#

No it's not.  I don't know if he's a suspect, but the man quinn and his gang beat up a  couple of weeks ago got a stone through his window the other night.

Be an interesting weekend insofar as the level of thuggery in S. Armagh

So you think the Shinners should be held accountable for the actions of every republican? 

you're very concerned about Paul Quinn's parent's too, I wonder are they as concerned about their son's victims.

Just one more fact on this, lads.  The man in question was never in the IRA.  Nor is his son.  He, like about 99.999% of people in the Cullyhanna area is a republican, supports SF and is a good GAA man.  He never attends marches, isn't a slabber and is highly respected by all in that area.  He is a very funny, friendly popular man and does not deserve what has happened to him as a result of this episode. 
Our friend's Bebo moniker is 'f**ker'.  Yes, that's what he called himself on Bebo. Check it out.  Doesn't deserve him to be brutally murdered, but it iflls in another piece of the jigsaw about the type of personality he had.
He was a really bad boy.  As were those who murdered him.  All part of a viciousness that seems to be peculiar to that part of s.armagh.

PS - could someone let his frields know that 'murdering' is spelt with a 'g' at the end.

QuoteJust one more fact on this, lads.  The man in question was never in the IRA.  Nor is his son.  He, like about 99.999% of people in the Cullyhanna area is a republican, supports SF and is a good GAA man.  He never attends marches, isn't a slabber and is highly respected by all in that area.  He is a very funny, friendly popular man and does not deserve what has happened to him as a result of this episode.

Are you on about Quinn's victim from the taxi office?  Agree totally with those comments, hard to believe speaking up for a girl in a taxi office that was taking foul mouthed abuse could cause so much shite to come your way. 

Quote
PS - could someone let his frields know that 'murdering' is spelt with a 'g' at the end.

What have they been writing and where?

Thats the same man, pints.  As decent a man as you could find.  Is he actually from your club?

The brave boys wrote 'IRA Murderin scum' on some wall in Cullyhanna.  Judging by the way they wrote 'murderin', they also had problems spelling the first syllable too because there is a letter stroked out in the middle of it .

Glad to see you've finally owned up to the fact he stole cars 5 Times.  Just one more fact there.  Conor Murphy gets £300 a week, the basic industrial wage.  SO does Martin McGuinness.  He, like all other SF MLA's etc take the basic industrial wage and paltry expenses paid from the party.  This is very well known.  Thought you would like to know it also.

QuoteThats the same man, pints.  As decent a man as you could find.  Is he actually from your club?

Would be yeah but haven't seen him about in ages.

Quote
Pints, while I dont think Sinn Fein should be held responsible for each and every Republicans actions, I think both the IRA and Sinn Fein should have the decency to admit what everyone in South Armagh and beyond knows, the IRA murdered this young lad because he stood up to them.
I have said before the Paul was no saint, but stolen cars or whatever else he has been accused of can be replaced. Human life cannot. The younger generation in South Armagh have not grown up in a climate of fear, they speak their mind and one of them has paid the ultimate price. We were meant to have left these days behind us a long time ago. We can blame the absence of a credible/accountable Police force all we want. The Police did not murder this young man, but like everyone else in the area, they know who did.

You keep refering to these people as the IRA, they're not the IRA, you know that as well as I do but that wouldn't suit your agenda.
Don't give me shite about replacing stolen cars, Paul Quinn was a sc**bag, he and his his gang stole cars, broke into houses, wrecked houses, beat up people etc - excuse me while I don't shed any tears for him! People of the area were more afraid of him and probably are still more afraid of his gang than they are of the people who killed him.  It's a better world without him. 

Some of the shite on here about him being a "young lad" or a bag egg or something makes me sick - try telling that shite to his victims - most of whom were elderly!

Quote
I find people like you seem to come out of the woodwork at times like this, would you be such a big man to say such things to the deceased if he were still alive. I think we can all work that one out for ourselves.

He probably wouldn't and neither would I because it wouldn't be worth 10 at our door looking a fight or the house wrecked.

I wouldn't say anything to the like of him, 5 Times because like most people, I avoid totally the type of thug that Quinn was.  I stay away from pubs that him or his like might frequent and I drive very carefully in case I might him or his ilk driving on the wrong side of the road in a car who some law abiding person saved up for.  I, like other people live in the constant dread that a member of my family might unwittingly run into him or his friends, either on the road, or out at night.  A fellow thug actually did kill an innocent man a couple of months ago when he was on the wrong side of the road.  Wasn't this the straw that broke the camel's back in Cross a few weeks ago and prompted the locals to come out onto the streets.  No Quinn didn't kill anyone.  Just pure luck.
   I wouldn't say anything to him or his likes because they might come to my house late at night and cause thousands of pounds worth of damage.  They are known to do that type of thing.  No.  I spend my life trying to avoid that type of person and the type of person also who beat him to death.  

aye fivetimes, we'll stand around waiting on the police to do something  ::)


When the police won't do anything, murder may not be the answer but a good beating is!

QuotePints, although you may not like it, the people who murdered Paul Quinn are todays IRA, ceasefire soldiers as you call them, but no matter who or what they are they dont have much regard for a human life.

They may call themselves the IRA, we all know they're nothing but a criminal gang.

Quote
Now, like me you probably dont like the fact that Sinn fein have signed up to policing, but the fact of the matter is that they have, it is up to your "Community Leaders" to work with the Police to rid the area of anti-social behaviour. These community leaders can no longer take the law into their own hands, last Saturday is not the way forward for anyone.

I'd be happy for the police would do something and I think the community would welcome it.
You go into Cross any weekend evening/night and see what's going on in the sqaure, 100 yards from a police station, and tell me why the police will not arrest the thugs speeding around the square on the wrong side of the road, mounting footpaths, doing handbrake turns etc. That's not talk of the break ins and robberies. 
I believe Cullyhanna is worse. 

What do we do about all this?  Just accept it?
(I asked this question before on this thread and it hasn't been answered - so you tell me!)

well it's better than having some innocent person killed.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 27, 2007, 04:29:27 PM
well it's better than having some innocent person killed.

Bloody hell. Who decides the guilt or innocence of people?

It's a pity SF took so long to sign up to policing. The local Right Honourable Member was able to categorically rule out republican involvement before the murder victim's body was even cold. Surely such thorough investigative methods could help find out who did actually murder the fella........... :-\

 ::) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Quote from: deiseach on October 27, 2007, 06:33:14 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 27, 2007, 04:29:27 PM
well it's better than having some innocent person killed.

Bloody hell. Who decides the guilt or innocence of people?

I'm sure where you live, you know who the local thugs are and who's simply going about their life. 

It was only a matter of time before someone died, I'm rather it be him than some innocent that met him on the wrong side of the road or disturbed him breaking into their house. 

Quote from: deiseach on October 27, 2007, 06:33:14 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 27, 2007, 04:29:27 PM
well it's better than having some innocent person killed.

Bloody hell. Who decides the guilt or innocence of people?

I was reminded of an incident back during the "Armed Struggle" were an IRA "Police Squad" went to the Belfast house of an alleged child molester - an aged pensioner, as it happens - and administered their unique brand of "Community Justice". After they left him tied to his toilet, they ripped out the telephone line and warned neighbours not to intervene, so that by the time emergency services got to him, he had bled to death. It later transpired that the IRA had, in fact, gone to the wrong address and so got the wrong man entirely.

Unfortunately, I wasn't able to find the incident on Google, but I did come across this interesting piece which also deals with the IRA and the subject of Crime and Punishment:

McCartney's killer a part of 'untouchable IRA first family' of sadists and perverts

By Jim Cusack
Sunday May 08 2005

THE IRA man who stabbed Robert McCartney to death may hold the distinction of being the youngest mass killer in either British or Irish history. By the time he was 12, he had managed to kill six people.

A wayward and troublesome youth, he was prone to vandalising property, stealing things and starting fires. On Saturday, January 16, 1984, he set fire to a pile of foam mats in a storeroom in the Maysfield Leisure Centre, beside the Central Station and the Catholic Markets area of Belfast where he lived. As he left the building, the fire took hold, and toxic smoke began belching from the storeroom, filling the leisure centre's maze of corridors.

Six people perished, including 29-year-old Lorraine Gibson, and her two daughters, Angela, 9, and seven-year-old Julie. The other victims were a 16-year-old boy and two men aged 33 and 64.

The young killer was eventually tracked down and questioned by the police but he was a convincing liar and there was no proof that he started the fire. There were no security cameras inside the building to catch him coming from the storeroom, and no witnesses.

Undeterred, the young killer set off on a life of delinquency and soon earned a name as a vicious bully and thief.

A neighbour recalled how the future murderer of Robert McCartney was one of a gang of teenagers who used to wait near the train station for Protestant school children - who were, like all grammar-school pupils, easily identified by their uniforms.

The neighbour watched one day as the gang pounced on a smaller boy from the Royal Belfast Academical Institution - or the Inst, as it is known - who was carrying a violin case. The young Markets thugs kicked and punched the boy the ground, took the violin out of the case, and smashed it over his head.

The young killer then took up joyriding, and is remembered in the Markets for an incident in which he drove a stolen car at speed into the front room of a terraced house. Luckily, the family was watching TV in the back room or they could have been added to the young thug's list of victims.

Had he been anyone other than a working-class Catholic teenager, he would almost certainly have been taken up an alley and shot in both legs or beaten with baseball bats until he was permanently disabled. But, in Belfast, there are circumstances where such juvenile delinquency can be overlooked. It occurs when the young thug involved happens to be a member of a 'republican family'. And this thug just happens to be part of an extended family in the Markets and Short Strand areas that comprises most of the local IRA leadership. This is a family which, if its members were living in Texas, would have a chainsaw-massacre movie made about it.

The killer's principal reputation in the Catholic enclave is not so much for the people he killed in the leisure centre or his joyriding, but for his violence against women. He is a sadist. During a row with a girlfriend, who happened to be doing the ironing at the time, he beat her to the floor and was in the process of kicking her senseless when the unfortunate young woman's sister came into the house and tried to intervene. He grabbed her, tore off her blouse and pressed the red-hot iron against her breast. She still bears the scars.

In another incident, he forced his way into a flat on the Ormeau Road and kicked a heavily pregnant young woman in the stomach so hard that she lost her baby. Everyone in the Markets and Short Strand knew about the incident. No one said a word.

Not surprisingly, perhaps, this man comes from a family notorious for knife-wielding butchery. In an eerie prequel to the murder of Robert McCartney, the uncle of the prime suspect was part of a drunken Provisional IRA gang that beat and stabbed to death Francis Joseph Benson in November 1973.

Benson was punched in an unprovoked attack by the uncle in a bar in the Markets, then others joined him. They dragged the unfortunate Benson, a 28-year-old docker, into an alley off Stewart Street and butchered him, dumping the body in a derelict house. Benson, local people recall, had done nothing to deserve the assault on him. He happened to be in the wrong bar at the wrong time when the local Provos' blood was up.

While local people knew of what happened to Benson and of the other acts of extreme violence perpetrated by the local IRA, few have ever spoken of it before now. They are talking a bit now, though, albeit sotto voce. They are beginning to realise that they have allowed the republican 'family' to grow and prosper in their midst - the head of the local IRA unit reputedly owns five houses - to the point where it is untouchable.

As they begin to talk, a picture is emerging of the vicious, dysfunctional people who comprise the local IRA leadership. One of the family, now dead, was not only the head of the local IRA unit but also one of the IRA's very top men in Belfast in the Eighties.

Despite being married with two children and fond of portraying himself as a macho kind of guy, he was also a closet homosexual or, in Belfast rhyming slang, a 'bullroot' (fruit), as the locals described him.

He was notorious among the young tearaways for the way he liked to 'punish' them for aberrant or 'anti-social' behaviour, as the IRA put it. The young hoods were ordered round to his house, where they were, often as not, forced over his knee, had their trousers taken down and spanked. One youth was summoned to the house to find the Bullroot wearing only a towel as he prepared for the 'punishment'.

This punishment was humiliating and usually painful - although he could be quite forgiving with good-looking boys - but it was almost always less damaging than the kneecappings and beatings dispensed in the alleyways of other Catholic areas.

Like his younger relative (once removed - it is a somewhat complicated family structure involving some consanguineous relationships), the Bullroot was also fond of going to Maysfield Leisure Centre. He went there on almost a daily basis, spending an inordinate amount of time in the weight-training room and the men's sauna.

It was in the sauna that the RUC Special Branch reputedly placed a spy camera that captured the stocky and remarkably ugly IRA boss engaged in distinctly unrepublican behaviour with a rent boy, possibly sent there for the purpose by the Branch.

Confronted with the X-rated evidence of his proclivities and threatened with exposure, he reputedly became one of the Branch's biggest touts in Belfast. It became quite clear as the Eighties wore on that almost every major bomb-run by the IRA in Belfast was being stymied by very, very good intelligence.

Though dozens of young IRA members were to spend large parts of their lives in prison because of him, the Bullroot remains a revered figure on the list of republican dead.

However, he was by no means the only big tout operated by the security forces from the Markets and Short Strand.

Possibly the biggest ever tout operated by the British Army also came from the Markets and, naturally, was part of the extended IRA family, by marriage. He was the IRA's 'Witch-finder General', charged with seeking out informers and handing them over to a gang in south Armagh that had earned itself the charming soubriquet 'the Nutting Squad'.

They enjoyed their work, spending days, even weeks, torturing victims until they 'confessed' to their betrayal of the republican cause. The victims were mostly near death by the time they were taken to lonely roads in south Armagh and shot - some of them possibly welcoming the release death would bring.

ONE of their last victims was Caroline Moorland, a 35-year-old single mother who also happened to be suffering from cancer of the spine. She was accused of giving information that led to the capture of an IRA squad on its way to murder a top detective in east Belfast.

However, it is almost certain that Moorland knew nothing of the plot but was murdered after being forced into giving a confession to hide the identity of the real tout - the same Witch-finder who had accused her of informing.

Moorland was snatched from her daughter, taken to a house on the Monaghan-Armagh border and there interrogated and tortured for more than a week before being shot dead. The murder took place less than a month before the IRA called its ceasefire.

Since the sisters and partner of Robert McCartney decided to speak out, other people from the Markets and Short Strand have begun to think and talk a bit more analytically about the IRA.

They have begun to think and even speak more openly than ever before about the people who went to Magennis's Bar on the evening of January 30, 2005, after returning from Sinn Fein's annual Bloody Sunday commemoration march in Derry, where they had joined the marchers led by Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and the rest of the party leadership.

They have begun to talk about the local IRA boss (a family member, naturally) reputed to have ordered the murder of father-of-two McCartney and the near murder of Brendan Devine.

The boss's family includes not only the Bullroot but another man who was forced to flee the Markets area some years ago after it emerged that he was a paedophile and serial child abuser.

He was long suspected of 'fiddling' with children but his close connection to the family prevented him being accused or attacked. People let it happen in silence. Unfortunately for him, his last victim was the younger sister of a young woman with equally strong connections to another IRA family.

There was a bit of an outcry and he decamped to Dublin where, it is believed, he was taken in and looked after by the IRA gang in north inner Dublin that runs the truck heists out of Dublin Port.

The boss's uncle is believed to have been the man, aged in his mid-40s, who was seen kicking and then jumping on the head of the dying Robert McCartney in Market Street, around the corner from the pub. He reputedly only stopped when someone shouted: "Stop, he's dead!"

This man, a person capable of kicking the prone body of a man who had already been slashed with a carving knife and stabbed in the heart, is, not surprisingly, yet another violent sexual deviant.

He has a reputation for violence against men and women, and though married and living with his wife in the Short Strand, is a familiar figure on Belfast's cottaging circuit.

He is also a fairly prominent Sinn Fein electoral worker. So is his nephew and so is the knife man who repeatedly stabbed and slashed McCartney and his drinking companion Devine. So is the man who beat McCartney and Devine with a sewer rod, gathered, with the knife, from the storeroom in Magennis's Bar in Belfast city centre.

Adams and other Sinn Fein figures have stated that the murder of McCartney was not an IRA operation. To the extent that this has any limited meaning, it is correct. There was no sanction of the murder by the IRA leadership.

But it was ordered by the local IRA boss who made a stabbing motion with his hand as he walked away from Devine after stabbing him in the throat with a broken bottle. He also ordered that Devine's T-shirt be torn off to prevent the discovery of any DNA evidence if the garment fell into the hands of the police.

He also ordered his men to follow and attack Robert McCartney, who had been no part of the dispute which led to this 'glassing' of Brendan Devine, as he helped his friend from the bar.

He was present when the weapons were taken by his men. He was also present - before being whisked away in a car - when the men then ordered the forensic cleaning of the bar to remove any evidence that might connect them to the murder and maiming.

One of his men shouted: "This is IRA business," as the rest of the punters in the bar were ordered to "say nothing" and stay inside until they were allowed out.

It is also believed that one of the IRA gang brought an IRA gun to Market Street and was holding it to Robert McCartney's head when he was stabbed.

And it was the same members of the IRA who later went to speak to eyewitnesses and tell them, in one man's words, that it would be "better for them" if they saw nothing.

The murder may not have been premeditated or officially sanctioned, but the cover-up which immediately swung into operation was 'IRA business' and took a lot of organising. It was the IRA who took Robert McCartney's jacket and put it in a shopping bag, which was then taken away in a car to an IRA pub in west Belfast, where it was handed over to other IRA people who burned the evidence.

It may not, in Adams's view, have been an IRA operation - he has even described it as a "crime" - but the current IRA officer commanding in Belfast has made a point of showing solidarity with the man who ordered the stabbing of Robert McCartney and Brendan Devine. He has appeared publicly in his company on several occasions, laughing and joking.

And, despite Adams's weasel words, it is Sinn Fein that is behind the campaign of vilification directed against the McCartney sisters and Robert's fiancee, Bridgeen Hagans. Even before the women's meeting with US President George Bush, they were orchestrating a whispering campaign: that the McCartney girls were being financed and manipulated by the SDLP and anti-Sinn Fein people.

The media handlers were sidling up to journalists at the Sinn Fein Ard Fheis before the women arrived and telling them that Robert was "no angel", nor was Brendan Devine. They were hinting that McCartney and Devine started the fight and though the lads might have overreacted a bit, these things happen.

The smear campaign got worse when the family returned from Washington. There were hints and allegations about the funding for their trip, and stories in pro-Sinn Fein newspapers. The sisters are quite open about the assistance they received and have never attempted to conceal anything.

Then Bridgeen and the sisters were physically assaulted while handing out slips of paper announcing a vigil for Robert. A local man who witnessed the incident said the sisters were clearly accosted with the intention of provoking them into a fight.

Despite being subjected to disgusting sexual taunts, the sisters resisted the temptation to hit out - luckily, for the confrontation was being filmed by a cameraman hidden in the upstairs bedroom of a nearby house and if the sisters had struck out, there is little doubt that the images would have quietly been released to the media by Sinn Fein.

Later that same night, a female member of the IRA family called to Paula McCartney's house and told her that she and her husband and five children would have to get out of the area. Bridgeen, too, was told to leave.
http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/mccartneys-killer-a-part-of-untouchable-ira-first-family-of-sadists-and-perverts-467661.html

Completely right 5ivetimes

I presume we aren't to ask what you were doing there 5times?

Quote from: 5iveTimes on October 29, 2007, 01:04:02 AM
Unlike other posters, I have witnessed punishment beatings first hand. Two in fact. The first was a child molestor, probably the most despicable species on this earth. I saw that man getting his fingers broke one by one, then his arms and legs, probably his ribs as well. He took a hell of a hammering and he wasnt a young man. The second was a man in his mid twenties who was known for joyriding, stealing Ifor Wiliams trailers etc. He took a savage beating with iron bars, I cant remember his injuries but they would have been pretty severe, certainly plenty of broken bones and bruising. When his beating was over, I clearly remember one of the men dishing out the punishment throwing him 10p so he could call an ambulance.
Both acts were sickening truly gruesome, I actually felt sorry for both of them afterwards. I knew the second person quite well. If the posters who are supporting the beating and subsequent murder of Paul Quinn had witnessed either of those beatings I am sure they may feel a hell of a lot different now. The people who carry out these beatings are no better than the people they maim for life.

QuoteI presume we aren't to ask what you were doing there 5times?

No, I think that's what he wants.




EG, I don't understand your point.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 29, 2007, 12:34:25 PM

QuoteI presume we aren't to ask what you were doing there 5times?

No, I think that's what he wants.




EG, I don't understand your point.

EG has no point in this last post. Lets all start pasting passages from the numerous loyalist/IRA books out there and see which side comes out of it worse. Fultility at its finest.

Quote from: Puckoon on October 29, 2007, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 29, 2007, 12:34:25 PM

QuoteI presume we aren't to ask what you were doing there 5times?

No, I think that's what he wants.




EG, I don't understand your point.

EG has no point in this last post. Lets all start pasting passages from the numerous loyalist/IRA books out there and see which side comes out of it worse. Fultility at its finest.

This is a thread about a Murder which many people consider to have been carried out by IRA members, whether officially sanctioned or otherwise. As part of the general debate, other posters brought up e.g. the case of Keith Rogers, without you or anyone else querying its relevance or futility.

In direct response to the following rhetorical question by Deiseach: "Bloody hell. Who decides the guilt or innocence of people?" , I posted what apperared to be an authoritative article which analysed the make up of some of the most notorious members of various IRA "punishment" squads, including where the victims (sorry, the Guilty) were allegedly abducted in Belfast and sent to South Armagh to be despatched by the local "nutting sqad". If this is true, it is entirely possible that the same sort of people battered Quinn to death.

As someone who knows a little about some of these peoples' victims who came from "the other side", I regard these killers without the rosy-eyed view that some on the Republican side appear to have adopted. But if you wish to start a thread about similar atrocities carried out by (so called) Loyalists, then go ahead - you'll not hear me trying to condone or defend their actions - quite the contrary, since I consider there to be no difference between one set of pyschopathic murderers who appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner and any other gang which does the same.  >:(

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 29, 2007, 05:33:56 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on October 29, 2007, 02:25:14 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 29, 2007, 12:34:25 PM

QuoteI presume we aren't to ask what you were doing there 5times?

No, I think that's what he wants.




EG, I don't understand your point.

EG has no point in this last post. Lets all start pasting passages from the numerous loyalist/IRA books out there and see which side comes out of it worse. Fultility at its finest.

This is a thread about a Murder which many people consider to have been carried out by IRA members, whether officially sanctioned or otherwise. As part of the general debate, other posters brought up e.g. the case of Keith Rogers, without you or anyone else querying its relevance or futility.

In direct response to the following rhetorical question by Deiseach: "Bloody hell. Who decides the guilt or innocence of people?" , I posted what apperared to be an authoritative article which analysed the make up of some of the most notorious members of various IRA "punishment" squads, including where the victims (sorry, the Guilty) were allegedly abducted in Belfast and sent to South Armagh to be despatched by the local "nutting sqad". If this is true, it is entirely possible that the same sort of people battered Quinn to death.

As someone who knows a little about some of these peoples' victims who came from "the other side", I regard these killers without the rosy-eyed view that some on the Republican side appear to have adopted. But if you wish to start a thread about similar atrocities carried out by (so called) Loyalists, then go ahead - you'll not hear me trying to condone or defend their actions - quite the contrary, since I consider there to be no difference between one set of pyschopathic murderers who appoint themselves judge, jury and executioner and any other gang which does the same.  >:(

Im not interested in condoning or defending the actions of anyone involved in ANY paramilitary/thug behaviour, on either side. The futility of it is that articles like the one you quoted arent of much use to anyone, it just seemed too long winded with a little bit of hersay thrown in for good measure. Id rather make my own mind up than read stories like that.

Quote
Not what I want at all, Pints I am trying to stress to people like yourself that punishment beatings are not the answer. Its ok for fireside rebels like Seany to glorify them and tell the board everything the recipient of the beating is supposed to have done, when he is not here to defend himself, but in my opinion the people who carry out these attacks are as bad and sometimes worse than the people they punish.

I know punish beatings aren't the answer and the people who murdered paul quinn are as bad as him but that doesn't mean I'll be crying for quinn.

Quote from: Puckoon on October 29, 2007, 07:09:58 PM
The futility of it is that articles like the one you quoted arent of much use to anyone, it just seemed too long winded with a little bit of hersay thrown in for good measure. Id rather make my own mind up than read stories like that.

What is your problem? This is a thread about Republican/IRA violence and "punishment" killings etc post-ceasefire. It was prompted by an incident in S.Armagh. I posted an article which deals specifically with Republican/IRA violence and "punishment" killings etc post-ceasefire. It even included reference to S.Armagh.

If you don't agree with what the article says, then tell us how/why.

If you think the article is irrelevant to the thread, then expalin to us how.

If you don't think the article has anything useful to say, ignore it.

If you don't need the article to make up your mind on the topic, then good for you.

Above all, if you think that adding such a contribution to a thread like this is "futile", you may be correct, but just what are you doing on an internet forum like this, then?  ???

oh FFS
its not the IRA that carried it out...but dont let that get in the way of your story twisting ! ::)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on October 30, 2007, 12:10:04 PM
oh FFS
its not the IRA that carried it out...but dont let that get in the way of your story twisting ! ::)

If that comment was addressed at me, I should point that nowhere have I stated unequivocally that it was "the IRA that carried it out". Rather, there is widespread speculation that present or former members of the IRA carried it out, possibly following some sort of order by IRA commanders, whether at local or higher levels. And even if such speculation is misplaced, I for one find it impossible to believe that such an action could be carried out in the South Armagh area without the local IRA knowing exactly who was involved. In which case, following Gerry Adams's condemnation of the killing, plus the stated policy of the the IRA's poilitical wing (SF) to support policing in NI, one might at least expect information on the killing to be passed on to the police.

Unless, of course....... :o

Quote from: Seany on October 27, 2007, 01:27:40 PM
Just one more fact on this, lads.  The man in question was never in the IRA.  Nor is his son.  He, like about 99.999% of people in the Cullyhanna area is a republican, supports SF and is a good GAA man.  He never attends marches, isn't a slabber and is highly respected by all in that area.  He is a very funny, friendly popular man and does not deserve what has happened to him as a result of this episode. 
Our friend's Bebo moniker is 'f**ker'.  Yes, that's what he called himself on Bebo. Check it out.  Doesn't deserve him to be brutally murdered, but it iflls in another piece of the jigsaw about the type of personality he had.
He was a really bad boy.  As were those who murdered him.  All part of a viciousness that seems to be peculiar to that part of s.armagh.

PS - could someone let his frields know that 'murdering' is spelt with a 'g' at the end.

He also has a cast iron alibi, he was at a wedding when it happened

QuoteI for one find it impossible to believe that such an action could be carried out in the South Armagh area without the local IRA knowing exactly who was involved. In which case, following Gerry Adams's condemnation of the killing, plus the stated policy of the the IRA's poilitical wing (SF) to support policing in NI, one might at least expect information on the killing to be passed on to the police.

And you'd know a lot about south armagh  ::)

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 30, 2007, 12:41:46 PM

QuoteI for one find it impossible to believe that such an action could be carried out in the South Armagh area without the local IRA knowing exactly who was involved. In which case, following Gerry Adams's condemnation of the killing, plus the stated policy of the the IRA's poilitical wing (SF) to support policing in NI, one might at least expect information on the killing to be passed on to the police.

And you'd know a lot about south armagh  ::)

No more than anyone else who has close family members living in South Armagh...

Anyhow, from your knowledge of the area, would you like to refute my opinion which you quoted above - or do you just prefer to "play the man, rather than the ball"?  ::)

QuoteI for one find it impossible to believe that such an action could be carried out in the South Armagh area without the local IRA knowing exactly who was involved.

If the IRA weren't involved themselves how would they know who was involved?  What sort of hold do you think the IRA have in the area?  Are you suggesting the IRA knows everything that goes on in the area?  That's a bit daft!

Quote
In which case, following Gerry Adams's condemnation of the killing, plus the stated policy of the the IRA's poilitical wing (SF) to support policing in NI, one might at least expect information on the killing to be passed on to the police.

Say the IRA do know who was involved what do you want to happen.
Wee paddy from Crossmaglen contacts Gerry Adams to tell him who done it and Gerry goes to the police and says Paddy told him X Y and Z were involved.  Now I'm no legal expert but I'm led to believe that type of "evidence" is not admissable in court.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on October 30, 2007, 05:47:23 PM

QuoteI for one find it impossible to believe that such an action could be carried out in the South Armagh area without the local IRA knowing exactly who was involved.

If the IRA weren't involved themselves how would they know who was involved?  What sort of hold do you think the IRA have in the area?  Are you suggesting the IRA knows everything that goes on in the area?  That's a bit daft!

Quote
In which case, following Gerry Adams's condemnation of the killing, plus the stated policy of the the IRA's poilitical wing (SF) to support policing in NI, one might at least expect information on the killing to be passed on to the police.

Say the IRA do know who was involved what do you want to happen.
Wee paddy from Crossmaglen contacts Gerry Adams to tell him who done it and Gerry goes to the police and says Paddy told him X Y and Z were involved.  Now I'm no legal expert but I'm led to believe that type of "evidence" is not admissable in court.

Jesus, I never had wee Paddy down as a tout :o

Nor me . poor wee paddy.

I see Hugh Ord, our defense minister and our Taioseach all beleive, from the evidence presented to them, that the IRA were not involved here.
But I'm sure this is just a political ploy given how much they love Sinn Fein and the IRA  ::)

Get over it lads, they werent involved.

Well 5ivetimes - where did I gloat?

Ah now common lads and grow up they were involved alright. The IRA have been and are still involved in illegal activity ie northern bank, killing of the lad Quinn. I don't know the ins and outs of the incident and i find it really distasteful to actually speak about it on the board but i suppose that is what it is for and no one is really being disrespectful but.  They can't be accused of the Northern bank or the killing of young Quinn because it will wreck the stability of our momentous peace deal . I also realise that the IRA don't control everything in S. Armagh but something of this magnitude wouldn't have been carried out without some highier command. Someones noise was put out of joint by what Quinn had done and it escalated ( but this is only my opinion) I did'nt know the lad or what he got up to but if it had been another gang that had done it on him there would have been redemption by now despite claims from the family not to.

Quote from: his holiness nb on October 31, 2007, 09:39:44 AM
I see Hugh Ord, our defense minister and our Taioseach all beleive, from the evidence presented to them, that the IRA were not involved here.
But I'm sure this is just a political ploy given how much they love Sinn Fein and the IRA  ::)

Get over it lads, they werent involved.

I believe that Drumcondra bollix even less than I do that IRA shower. Bertie just wants to get a job in Europe & sod the truth.

A lot of people still blame the IRA for the Northern bank robbery. I have a theory that the bank wasn't robbed in the first place!

Thats some theory  :D :D :D :D any other words of wisdom???? :D :D :D

To those that were crying and yapping about what happened to Paul Quinn I just thought I'd let you know that his mates have left a young lad fighting for his life tonight, maybe you'll spare a thought for the lad considering his only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 05, 2008, 09:57:50 PM
To those that were crying and yapping about what happened to Paul Quinn I just thought I'd let you know that his mates have left a young lad fighting for his life tonight, maybe you'll spare a thought for the lad considering his only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

Two wrongs do not make a right.

The view must be great from were you're sitting but I'm not interested in getting into the whole thing again.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 05, 2008, 09:57:50 PM
To those that were crying and yapping about what happened to Paul Quinn I just thought I'd let you know that his mates have left a young lad fighting for his life tonight, maybe you'll spare a thought for the lad considering his only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

I hope the lad can recover please God.
But how long is this kind of thing going to go on for or when will the penny drop that some law and order is needed around South Armagh??

QuoteBut how long is this kind of thing going to go on for or when will the penny drop that some law and order is needed around South Armagh??

Exactly Rossfan and the question that should be asked every night on newsline or UTV, instead of the talking about what the IRA may or may not have done, is why there is no law and order when the whole area is screaming out for it!!!
We knew something like this was coming, we knew it was only a matter of time and I told yous that.  And people wonder and are up in arms when someone takes the law into their own hands.

I assume by your use of the phrase

Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 05, 2008, 09:57:50 PM
To those that were crying and yapping about what happened to Paul Quinn

you believe that those responsible for this henious act deserve to to be beaten to death by a group of vigilantes also?

No steph but I wouldn't be crying over them. I'd much rather the police to deal with it.
I've explained my position often enough, despite people trying to put words in my mouth, and have no intention of getting into it again.

Fair enough Pints

The village of Jonesborough was shut down last week for 3 days due to the discovery of an "improvised explosive device" allegedly found in a carpark. the device was reported to have been a beer keg with wires hanging out.

After some days of investigations, local councillors of various backgrounds demanded answers from The PSNI as no information on the origin of the discovery was forthcoming from the local community and flat out denials were issued from all possible culprits.

a week on and the truth of the "attack" is at last in the public forum - South Armagh's very own Super hero Willie Frazier happened to be driving through Jonesborough, saw this device well off the road and pulled over to inspect it. after thorough examination the bould willie phone in what he had "discovered" and shut the south armagh village down for three days.

you couldn't make it up

Quote from: AFS on September 23, 2008, 03:00:37 PM
There's definitely something very suspicious about this incident when, out of all the people in and about South Armagh that day, Willie Frazier was the one that 'found' the device.

And very conveniently happened to have his camera on him so that he could take photos for the world press !!!!!  ;) ;D

Willie is some man for one man !

Nobody remember this boy, who used to send bombs to himself on the Ormeau Rd:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/11/26/story609790138.asp (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/11/26/story609790138.asp)

Quote from: Donagh on September 23, 2008, 03:05:06 PM
Nobody remember this boy, who used to send bombs to himself on the Ormeau Rd:

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/11/26/story609790138.asp (http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2000/11/26/story609790138.asp)

certinally do Donagh, used to see him about a lot on the road, is he out yet?

So yet another arrest in connection with this case at the weekend. 
All getting a little bit ridiculous at this stage, I've lost count of how many have been arrested and let out without charge.

Yet another mess up in an investigation by what has to be two of the most inept police forces - the RUC and Gardai  ::)