http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1640942007 (http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1640942007)
After being accused of being one of the hijackers of another thread by discussing this subject area, this well timed headline provides a good basis to discuss homosexuality in the priesthood. Now I'll admit at the outset that I'm an atheist, but the old catholic guilt still plays with the mind and as well as that I've children who need to go through a catholic education system so I'd like to be seen as a conscientious objector if you like. This headline suggests that I'm not the only one to see a lot of effeminate priests about the place who because they are living a lie cannot play a decent role in providing leadership to their flocks. Are those of you who would be more devout not concerned about the damage being done.
Are you saying that if you are a Catholic priest you are more likely to be gay?
No. Care to comment on what I did post?
Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?
Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?
Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.
Good point... In the 1950s and 1960s - or whenever ... Irish families had on average 8 or 9 kids ... all the brothers were all into the GAA, women etc but one had no interest in GAA - nor girls - and was he gay? No, in most homes it was because "he's bound for the priesthood" - simple fact was that in the law of averages he was gay... just very confused and ended up a priest..
Don't understand the point of your comments really. Just because they are effeminate they are gay?? Just because they are gay means they cannot carry out their duties?
A couple of points re the article itself.
It states
QuoteThe decision clearly illustrates the Vatican's stance that homosexuality is a sin
Not true -My understanding is that the sexual orientation itself is not a sin but the practice of it is - Same as pre-marital or sex outside marriage for heterosexuals.
Also any article that calls the Pope "enforcer of orthodoxy" to me indicates its unbalanced straight away.
Quote from: Declan on October 15, 2007, 01:21:01 PM
Also any article that calls the Pope "enforcer of orthodoxy" to me indicates its unbalanced straight away.
I don't think that means its unbalanced. He was regularly called the Vatican's chief enforcer of orthodoxy prior to becoming Pope! I thought that was a job title, but either way I dont think its derogatory.
QuoteHe was regularly called the Vatican's chief enforcer of orthodoxy
By whom? I'd suggest by those with an anti catholic church mindset
Quote from: Declan on October 15, 2007, 01:33:06 PM
QuoteHe was regularly called the Vatican's chief enforcer of orthodoxy
By whom? I'd suggest by those with an anti catholic church mindset
A quick google came up with the Guardian, Business Week, NY Times, LA Times, The Scotsman, USA Today and the Times. Dunno if they are all anti catholic, but what about the "Catholic League" - that well known anti catholic cult ;)
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=956
"
In 1998, as John Paul II's enforcer of orthodoxy, he said that the Church's prohibition against 'priestly ordination of women' had 'been set forth infallibly'"
Quote"Catholic League" - that well known anti catholic cult
:D Indeed cults the lot of them
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 15, 2007, 01:12:02 PM
Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?
Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?
Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.
Well as leaders of the catholic faith these men were meant to have joined the order because the had a "calling" from god. There are a sizable number who joined for different reasons. If you look at the pedophile priests and swimming coaches, it is blatantly obvious they were lying about the intentions going into such positions and have brought those profession into disrepute. I'm saying that these effeminate priests are (to a lesser degree of seriousness) doing the same....i.e. living a lie. They loose credibility when people realize why they became a priest in the first place.
To my mind there is a big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate. I'm saying that generally, effeminate men do not seem to possess the right character traits to be leaders. I just can't think of any examples of any. I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if others can prove otherwise. These priest get on great with the rosary bead brigade but don't seem to be able to reach out beyond to the community they serve in and encourage the waverers back into the flock.
QuoteWell as leaders of the catholic faith
Why would they be seen as leaders of the catholic faith. Historically maybe but nowadays I doubt it.to my mind they are ministering to their flock etc rather than "leading" them
What would your definition of effeminate be?
My only concern here is how high will they be suspending the priest from?
Ah sure this is too serious an issue for me to be voicing my opinion (which I rate very highly). But what is the alternative for the Church? Let him continue? No way. Suspending him is the lessor or two evils. I'm sure ArchBishop High Priest His Holiness Pope Pat Buckley esquire will have a bed for him.
QuoteI'm sure ArchBishop High Priest His Holiness Pope Pat Buckley esquire will have a bed for him.
Single I hope Orior
Quote from: Declan on October 15, 2007, 01:55:05 PM
QuoteWell as leaders of the catholic faith
Why would they be seen as leaders of the catholic faith. Historically maybe but nowadays I doubt it.to my mind they are ministering to their flock etc rather than "leading" them
What would your definition of effeminate be?
Well their role has been watered down then
Would they not be providing a leadership role if they had the ability to do so? I'd say people are embarrassed with them but realise someone has to say mass, do christenings, funerals etc. It's not the type of thing people feel comfortable speaking up about. Some priests are still leaders in their communities btw and play a real positive role in their ministry so I'm not trying to tar every priest with this accusation.
As far as my definition of effeminate, I'm happy with the wikipedia definition
"Effeminacy is a trait in males that generally contradicts traditional male (masculine) gender roles. It is a term frequently applied to femininity; or womanly behavior, demeanor, and appearance displayed by a man". Not all effeminate men are homosexual but most of them are.
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 02:15:29 PM
Quote from: Declan on October 15, 2007, 01:55:05 PM
QuoteWell as leaders of the catholic faith
Why would they be seen as leaders of the catholic faith. Historically maybe but nowadays I doubt it.to my mind they are ministering to their flock etc rather than "leading" them
What would your definition of effeminate be?
Well their role has been watered down then
Would they not be providing a leadership role if they had the ability to do so? I'd say people are embarrassed with them but realise someone has to say mass, do christenings, funerals etc. It's not the type of thing people feel comfortable speaking up about. Some priests are still leaders in their communities btw and play a real positive role in their ministry so I'm not trying to tar every priest with this accusation.
Skull where is this groundswell of effeminate priests?? Most priests tend to be softly spoken, polite and gentle enough and it may not even be their natural disposition (imagine you were pretending to be a priest, how would you act?). Men of faith often have a 'saintly' manner, or at least tend to portray one, its a stereotype that rightly or wrongly people act up to or expect, even unconciously.
I'm not sure what 'leadership' qualities you would expect of a priest, should they be strong, manly, herioc leaders in their daily battles like visiting the elderly, giving communion, organising parish fund raisers? They aren't warrior monks for heavens sake
You obviously seem to be embarrassed/bothered with effeminity yourself.
Personally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.
Mountains out of molehills my son, go in peace
On a general note, it is sad that so many in our modern society continue to rehearse the old "peado-priest" stereotype or try to insinuate that many of our clergy are homosexuals. The facts, inspite of the barely veiled media inspired anti-Catholicsm of the UK/Irish media, are that a Catholic priest is less likely than a general member of the public to have either engaged in child abuse, or to be gay. By no means am I trying to defend the abusers, one case of clerical abuse is one case too many, but I'm trying to show that the modern stigmatised stereotype is a terrible falsehood.
Quote from: Harps 21 on October 15, 2007, 04:46:01 PM
On a general note, it is sad that so many in our modern society continue to rehearse the old "peado-priest" stereotype or try to insinuate that many of our clergy are homosexuals. The facts, inspite of the barely veiled media inspired anti-Catholicsm of the UK/Irish media, are that a Catholic priest is less likely than a general member of the public to have either engaged in child abuse, or to be gay. By no means am I trying to defend the abusers, one case of clerical abuse is one case too many, but I'm trying to show that the modern stigmatised stereotype is a terrible falsehood.
WTF has being gay got to do with child abuse? And why would a clergyman (of any relegion or denomination) be any more or less likely that anybody else to be gay?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 15, 2007, 01:12:02 PM
Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?
Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?
Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.
Well as leaders of the catholic faith these men were meant to have joined the order because the had a "calling" from god. There are a sizable number who joined for different reasons. If you look at the pedophile priests and swimming coaches, it is blatantly obvious they were lying about the intentions going into such positions and have brought those profession into disrepute. I'm saying that these effeminate priests are (to a lesser degree of seriousness) doing the same....i.e. living a lie. They loose credibility when people realize why they became a priest in the first place.
To my mind there is a big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate. I'm saying that generally, effeminate men do not seem to possess the right character traits to be leaders. I just can't think of any examples of any. I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if others can prove otherwise. These priest get on great with the rosary bead brigade but don't seem to be able to reach out beyond to the community they serve in and encourage the waverers back into the flock.
TS, This is surely conjecture? How can you be sure of someones intentions? Im no great lover (pardon the pun) of the structures of the church, nor of many men/women who are part of it. That said however - I cant fathom that these people have based their careers around the potential to abuse young children.
I think you are mistaking gentleness, patience and a new practice of not pressurising people with these men being effeminate. Ive yet to see a priest walking around with a kink in the wrist or acting in any way feminine. The day of the bullish parish priest is gone. What you are seeing is the change. That said, I cant comment on the priest (s) you are in contact with. By the same token - you probably cant comment about the many either. Not unless you are sales rep for the altar wine.
BTW,
There are many young, gentle men out there who are week in and week out doing a great job of bringing fallen catholics back to the church. You have to look for the things you want to see, if you are going to see them.
agreed puckoon
QuotePersonally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.
:D
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 15, 2007, 01:12:02 PM
Then what do you mean when you say that are a lot of effeminate priests who are living a lie?
Are you saying effeminate men make poor leaders?
Many religious leaders throughout the world have a gentle manner through which they provide spiritual guidance to their congregations. You could have the red blooded hellfire preachers / advocates of jihad I suppose but it is questionable whether their leadership is any better.
Well as leaders of the catholic faith these men were meant to have joined the order because the had a "calling" from god. There are a sizable number who joined for different reasons. If you look at the pedophile priests and swimming coaches, it is blatantly obvious they were lying about the intentions going into such positions and have brought those profession into disrepute. I'm saying that these effeminate priests are (to a lesser degree of seriousness) doing the same....i.e. living a lie. They loose credibility when people realize why they became a priest in the first place.
To my mind there is a big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate. I'm saying that generally, effeminate men do not seem to possess the right character traits to be leaders. I just can't think of any examples of any. I'm prepared to admit I'm wrong if others can prove otherwise. These priest get on great with the rosary bead brigade but don't seem to be able to reach out beyond to the community they serve in and encourage the waverers back into the flock.
What possible difference could the level of effeminacy in a priest make to whether people in his parish decide to go back to the church or not? And what evidence have you got that "effeminate" priests are less genuine, devout, dedicated or capable than those who are perceived as more "manly"?
Are you on the wind-up, or do you really believe what you're writing here?
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 15, 2007, 03:50:02 PM
Skull where is this groundswell of effeminate priests?? Most priests tend to be softly spoken, polite and gentle enough and it may not even be their natural disposition (imagine you were pretending to be a priest, how would you act?). Men of faith often have a 'saintly' manner, or at least tend to portray one, its a stereotype that rightly or wrongly people act up to or expect, even unconciously.
I'm not sure what 'leadership' qualities you would expect of a priest, should they be strong, manly, herioc leaders in their daily battles like visiting the elderly, giving communion, organising parish fund raisers? They aren't warrior monks for heavens sake
Well of all the studies trying to estimate the number of priests with homsexuality orientation, the range varies from 15% to 50%. If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three. However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy so I'm not trying to use that figure as fact. But they do exist in sizeable numbers so why does everyone think I'm making this up out of my head?
Quote
You obviously seem to be embarrassed/bothered with effeminity yourself.
Obviously ::)
Quote
TS, This is surely conjecture? How can you be sure of someones intentions? Im no great lover (pardon the pun) of the structures of the church, nor of many men/women who are part of it. That said however - I cant fathom that these people have based their careers around the potential to abuse young children.
I'll agree that it is conjecture, but when the priesthood held such a position of trust was it not the perfect job for such people? Child abusing priests is going off topic though so we shouldn't take this off in a tangent
Quote
I think you are mistaking gentleness, patience and a new practice of not pressurising people with these men being effeminate. Ive yet to see a priest walking around with a kink in the wrist or acting in any way feminine. The day of the bullish parish priest is gone. What you are seeing is the change. That said, I cant comment on the priest (s) you are in contact with. By the same token - you probably cant comment about the many either. Not unless you are sales rep for the altar wine.
I did say in an earlier post that there is a "big difference between having a gentle manner and being effeminate" so I'm comfortable with the differentiation. I do know of 6 priests who were effeminately natured. 5 went to Africa, whilst the other has a parish somewhere in Ireland. Everybody I know is in agreement so again I don't think I'm unfairly judging these people. I'm prepared to admit that there is a chance that I may be wrong about one or maybe but not them all.
Quote
Personally I don't see very many 'womanly' priests about, not by your definition.
Mountains out of molehills my son, go in peace
:) They don't call them cassock lifters for nothing
Quote
What possible difference could the level of effeminacy in a priest make to whether people in his parish decide to go back to the church or not? And what evidence have you got that "effeminate" priests are less genuine, devout, dedicated or capable than those who are perceived as more "manly"?
Are you on the wind-up, or do you really believe what you're writing here?
I don't seem to be finding much agreement here
even though the catholic church itself at the highest level can see the problem. Somebody's got the blinkers on
I don't really have an issue with the catholic church's position. As with many of their teachings, I think it is complete and utter bollocks, but as I no longer participate in catholicism or have any religious belief whatsoever, I don't really care.
I just do not see the logic of your alleged association between the extent to which a priest may be effeminate on the one hand and the integrity and commitment which he brings to the job as well as the effect he may personally have on reparticipation on the part of lapsed believers on the other.
Quote from: hardstation on October 15, 2007, 08:01:43 PM
Your programme is coming on UTV now, Skull!
Great, sexually insecure men get to mouth about other people's business. :-\
I work as a volunteer youthworker and I just attended a weekend training session on child protection from a Catholic perspective.
the stats they gave us as recorded within the church where:
5% of abusers are homosexual and of those that were priests, only 5% were homosexual also.
That astounded me but did break away from the stereotypes mentioned above.
Child abuse of any kind is disgusting and God help those who have suffered at the hands of anyone. The training session for me revealed that most abuse was by males towards little girls and sometimes older women toward little girls.
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2007, 08:00:21 PM
I just do not see the logic of your alleged association between the extent to which a priest may be effeminate on the one hand and the integrity and commitment which he brings to the job as well as the effect he may personally have on reparticipation on the part of lapsed believers on the other.
I'm saying that it is my view that, because those who entered the priesthood for "the wrong reasons" that they never had the integrity or commitment levels to carry out their ministries properly and end up going through the motions. They are bound to be troubled by the reality every day that they are living the lie and have to put on a facade to so many people they meet in everyday life that it greatly affects how well they carry out their duties. Maybe missionary priests don't face the same inquiry as priests back here do and still have the unwavering trust of the people which makes their lives more bearable ???
Quote from: J70 on October 15, 2007, 08:00:21 PM
I don't really have an issue with the catholic church's position. As with many of their teachings, I think it is complete and utter bollocks, but as I no longer participate in catholicism or have any religious belief whatsoever, I don't really care.
I agree it's all a load of bollocks, but when you live in a catholic community and your kids go to the catholic school it's easier to play along. I've always wondered if the church is happy with me lying to my kids about me not believing in god :-\. I intend telling them about all faiths and I'm sure they'll eventually come to the same conclusion (i.e they can't all be right) over time
Quote from: The Iceman on October 15, 2007, 08:53:19 PM
5% of abusers are homosexual and of those that were priests, only 5% were homosexual also.
That astounded me but did break away from the stereotypes mentioned above.
Child abuse of any kind is disgusting and God help those who have suffered at the hands of anyone. The training session for me revealed that most abuse was by males towards little girls and sometimes older women toward little girls.
The unique thing about abuse by priests is that their victims have been almost exclusively boys (85% ish). Don't doubt for one second though that most of the abuse is carried out by people other than priests
Many serious issues are being raised here, so can i throw another into the pot. While the protection of children must always be paramount, the suspension of a priest on the basis of an accusation having been made, without even a preliminary enquiry into to the background and credibility of his accuser, is a denial of natural justice and human rights, which leaves priests alone and extremely vulnerable. No other profession applies or would tolerate automatic suspension as a response to an allegation, which may be fuelled by malice. In most cases it can be up to two years before the accused has his day in court and a chance to vindicate himself, in the meantime his reputation is ruined, he is placed under appaling stress as is his family, and at the end of the day he knows that a verdict of innocence will be insufficient to restore his good name as enough mud will have stuck and people are too willing to believe the worst.
QuoteI agree it's all a load of bollocks, but when you live in a catholic community and your kids go to the catholic school it's easier to play along. I've always wondered if the church is happy with me lying to my kids about me not believing in god. I intend telling them about all faiths and I'm sure they'll eventually come to the same conclusion (i.e they can't all be right) over time
This is the level of hypocrisy that bugs me. If you say your an athiest why why would you lie to your kids about your beliefs? The church as you term it wouldn't be happy about you lying about anything but if your not participating in it then I can't understand why you'd be wonderng about them anyway.
Re the original question I still don't get the whole effeminate/gay priests link in your mind. Ireland of the 50s/60s when vocations were much higher was a vastly different place and there are numerous reasons for their decline. I'm sure there were lots of lads who went into the priesthood for the "wrong" reasons with societal/family pressures etc but over the years I'd say the vast majority of these have left.
Quote from: Declan on October 16, 2007, 07:07:59 AM
This is the level of hypocrisy that bugs me. If you say your an athiest why why would you lie to your kids about your beliefs? The church as you term it wouldn't be happy about you lying about anything but if your not participating in it then I can't understand why you'd be wonderng about them anyway.
Re the original question I still don't get the whole effeminate/gay priests link in your mind. Ireland of the 50s/60s when vocations were much higher was a vastly different place and there are numerous reasons for their decline. I'm sure there were lots of lads who went into the priesthood for the "wrong" reasons with societal/family pressures etc but over the years I'd say the vast majority of these have left.
Hypocrisy..give it a break Deccy >:(. I lie to them because I don't want to conflict with what they are getting fed at school. Imagine the turmoil I'd create in my young children's minds if I forced my beliefs over the top of what they are learning about "god" in school. At the moment they are in a safe place and I'm happy enough with the moral teachings that they get in their early years. I intend telling them about all world religions over time to make them see that different peoples have different belief systems. They'll eventually come to their own conclusions when their older...but for now, if you don't mind, I'll raise my own kids.
And as regards me wondering about what the church would think about the mental paradox....excuse me for having a thought :-\
Just as an aside to the hypocrisy argument: The noted atheist Daniel Dennett, one of the worlds most brilliant minds takes his grandchildren to Sunday School...he has his reasons same as me...so shove your hypocrisy comment up your hole
Regarding you not getting the whole effeminate/gay priests link in my mind. Why do you keep suggesting that it is solely in my mind when it is perceived to be a big problem for the church itself? Quit focusing on the messenger will you?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 07:42:55 PM
Well of all the studies trying to estimate the number of priests with homsexuality orientation, the range varies from 15% to 50%. If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three
Can you reference these statistics?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 09:24:24 PM
The unique thing about abuse by priests is that their victims have been almost exclusively boys (85% ish). Don't doubt for one second though that most of the abuse is carried out by people other than priests
Can you give a reference for that statistic?
Of course its obvious you are bothered with effeminate men, else why would you spend so much time raising concerns over 'womanly' priests?
I don't believe that priests are more likely to be homosexual than the rest of the general population, as you state. I do believe that when they are, a song and dance is made about it.
There are bad eggs in every group. When one is found in the priesthood it is especially abhorrent. They should be revealed and punished.
But in all of your posts you have made one, single, grudging reference to the good work of priests, 'some priests play a positive role in their communities'.
You are focused on one small ugly facet of the priesthood (smaller than youd have us believe). You are smokescreening the fact that the vast majority of priests on a daily basis baptise our children, pray for us, hear our confessions, comfort us when we need it, support and raise funds for charity, marry us, give the dying their last rites and remember us at our funerals. A sizeable proportion go on the missions to places of famine, disease and war, to tend to desperate peoples they don't know. They build wells, houses and schools, for no personal gain. So take a look at the big picture
These people, a lot of whom are apparently effeminate as you say, actually have the
balls to dedicate their lives to a greater cause because of their
honest faith, while a sizeable amount of the 'manly' population go out and get pissed at the weekend, fight, contribute less to their communities. They are
brave enough to take the step into becoming a force for good, no matter how testosterone fuelled they are.
Whether you intended to or not you swept that under the carpet nice and handy
Quotebut for now, if you don't mind, I'll raise my own kids.
Wasn't trying to suggest anything else. I take your points about your reasons for not conflicting them etc just don't agree with you.
QuoteI intend telling them about all world religions over time to make them see that different peoples have different belief systems.
You'll be glad to know that this forms part of the new religion curriculum anyway
Re the noted athiest and the fact that he takes his kids to Sunday school - each to their own I suppose but seems strange to me.
On the substantive issue of your original point I don't know how it is a perceived problem for the church itself- What is a perceived problem anyway?
It's either a problem or it isn't and I don't think it is.
Re the personal comment about shoving it up my hole.Cheers for the constructive message and you talk about me getting at the messenger :o
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 16, 2007, 10:16:53 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 07:42:55 PM
Well of all the studies trying to estimate the number of priests with homsexuality orientation, the range varies from 15% to 50%. If we assume that all of the estimates are of equal validity, then about 33% of priests have a homosexual orientation -- about one in three
Can you reference these statistics?
Knowing full well that this will not be good enough for you and will be used purely as stick to try and beat me with heres the link.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_rcc.htm)
Selectively snipping my posts? I added after writing those details......"However, nobody knows with any degree of accuracy so I'm not trying to use that figure as fact.".
Quote
The unique thing about abuse by priests is that their victims have been almost exclusively boys (85% ish). Don't doubt for one second though that most of the abuse is carried out by people other than priests
Can you give a reference for that statistic?
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_7_54/ai_84454915 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_7_54/ai_84454915)
Quote
Of course its obvious you are bothered with effeminate men, else why would you spend so much time raising concerns over 'womanly' priests?
Its called arguing your point. Stop being so f**king childish steve
Quote
I don't believe that priests are more likely to be homosexual than the rest of the general population, as you state. I do believe that when they are, a song and dance is made about it.
You think it...therefore you're right? :D ....could you back that up with statistics? ;)
Quote
But in all of your posts you have made one, single, grudging reference to the good work of priests, 'some priests play a positive role in their communities'.
Selective again steve. I said "Some priests are still leaders in their communities btw and play a real positive role in their ministry so I'm not trying to tar every priest with this accusation."
It's not the main thrust of my argument so I don't feel the need to repeat it. Saying it once means I've said it does it not? And why would it be a grudging reference? ???
Quote
You are focused on one small ugly facet of the priesthood (smaller than youd have us believe). You are smokescreening the fact that the vast majority of priests on a daily basis baptise our children, pray for us, hear our confessions, comfort us when we need it, support and raise funds for charity, marry us, give the dying their last rites and remember us at our funerals. A sizeable proportion go on the missions to places of famine, disease and war, to tend to desperate peoples they don't know. They build wells, houses and schools, for no personal gain. So take a look at the big picture
Yes I am focusing on one "small" facet of the priesthood. What we are debating is just how big is the "small" and what threat does it pose long term to the health of the leadership given by church. I think it is a big enough issue to be doing damage hence why I startaed the discussion. I don't feel the need to expand on all the good things done by the church. Its not part of my argument. My argument is that the reputation of the church is seriously at risk as a result of the liberal attitude the church has had in relation to ordaining "gay priests" and no amount of the good work you talk about will bring it back. Hearts and minds. So maybe you should look at that big picture as well
Quote
These people, a lot of whom are apparently effeminate as you say, actually have the balls to dedicate their lives to a greater cause because of their honest faith, They are brave enough to take the step into becoming a force for good, no matter how testosterone fuelled they are.
Well that is a totally opposite interpretation to my view, so I can only say I disagree
Quote from: Declan
Re the noted atheist and the fact that he takes his kids to Sunday school - each to their own I suppose but seems strange to me.
On the substantive issue of your original point I don't know how it is a perceived problem for the church itself- What is a perceived problem anyway?
It's either a problem or it isn't and I don't think it is.
Well if somebody like Daniel Dennett understands why he does it, that should make you question your own thinking on the subject a bit more, then it mightn't seem so strange.
It is a perceived problem because the hard evidence is difficult to nail down and is mostly anecdotal I would think (I'm not an expert). There are enough statistics (if you care to believe them) which suggests that it is a problem. Stop trying to use semantics to win the argument
Quote
Re the personal comment about shoving it up my hole.Cheers for the constructive message and you talk about me getting at the messenger Shocked
Agreed. That wasn't needed. Me blood was up after the hypocrite comment. That original question still stands though....why attack the messenger when it is a perceived problem by the church itself?
Put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes as tight as you can and start shouting "no no no no no no no no....." :)
Quotethat should make you question your own thinking on the subject a bit more
I have thought about this subject a lot over the years but just cannot reconcile the fact that if someone rejects a particular belief system then actively participates in it by having his children instructed in it. Not shooting the messenger at all -you have your opinion, I have mine.
Don't understand your last comment
Frig me you are a stubborn boy skull!!
Thats the longest bloody post i've seen. Thanks for the references I'll get back with a proper reply after work - Don't want the boss walking in to see me looking at 'homosexuality amongst priests' now!!
I don't see how I have been 'so f**king childish' though. I think its fair to discern from your posts that you distrust effeminate men in the priesthood. Look at the lengths your going to to debate your point!!
Quote from: whiskeysteve on October 16, 2007, 12:14:42 PM
Frig me you are a stubborn boy skull!!
Thats the longest bloody post i've seen. Thanks for the references I'll get back with a proper reply after work - Don't want the boss walking in to see me looking at 'homosexuality amongst priests' now!!
I don't see how I have been 'so f**king childish' though. I think its fair to discern from your posts that you distrust effeminate men in the priesthood. Look at the lengths your going to to debate your point!!
Takes one to know one steve :)
Well my contribution was 18 lines worth...only six more than your last post. You must have been spending to much time on the would you/wouldn't you thread
Well if thats how you draw conclusions about people then who am I to argue with that brilliant logic. ??? And stop changing the goal posts...one minute its the broad brush accusation that "Of course its obvious you are bothered with effeminate men" , then the next its "I think its fair to discern from your posts that you distrust effeminate men in the priesthood"
Quote from: theskull1 on October 15, 2007, 09:24:24 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 15, 2007, 08:53:19 PM
5% of abusers are homosexual and of those that were priests, only 5% were homosexual also.
That astounded me but did break away from the stereotypes mentioned above.
Child abuse of any kind is disgusting and God help those who have suffered at the hands of anyone. The training session for me revealed that most abuse was by males towards little girls and sometimes older women toward little girls.
The unique thing about abuse by priests is that their victims have been almost exclusively boys (85% ish). Don't doubt for one second though that most of the abuse is carried out by people other than priests
well i was on the course lad, not sure what you base your figures on - but I base mine on experience and statistics.