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Fianna Fail 'will organise in NI'

Fianna Fail are to organise in Northern Ireland, Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern has confirmed.
It is the first time in the party's 81-year history that efforts have been made to mobilise on an all-Ireland basis.
Mr Ahern said Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern would chair a committee to implement the move.
"This moves reflects the dramatic changes we have seen across the island," the party leader said.
Dermot Ahern said the party did not intend to contest any seats in a Westminster election.
"We wouldn't be interested in going to the House of Commons as a political party. That is for others to do," he said.
"We feel we should have representation in Northern Ireland as a political party."
Earlier on Monday, the SDLP refused to rule out a possible merger with Fianna Fail.
"The SDLP will be ready for the challenge or opportunity of such a future adjustment when it ripens," said a spokeswoman.
Commentators have said that Fianna Fail's plans to organise in Northern Ireland have been spurred on by the setting up of a powering-sharing executive at Stormont, making such a move less politically sensitive.
It has also been suggested that its success against Sinn Fein in the Republic's recent election played a part.

A momentous decision IMO which for the first time could see the real driver for reunification coming from south of the border, although I don't see why all the talk has been about an FF-SDLP takeover. Surely given the recent goings on at the Mahon tribunal and the furore over the Causeway Visitor Centre, the FFers natural bedfellows in the north are the DUP? Still it's heartening to see Bertie backing the SF abstentionist policy in regards foreign parliaments.

about time. any of ye lot going to vote for them? personnally i'd prefer if they merged with the sdlp or even the sdlp and sf. i see the dup and oup are on about merging too. interesting times...

Wouldn't vote for them myself while Bertie and the rest of the Drumcondra Mafia are running the party but they'd certainly hoover up most of the soft nationalist vote that remains with the SDLP and I'd say a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class.

The move would certainly liven up the elections north of the border again. Just as the FFers hammered the soft southern Shinners in the last Free State election, SF will be asking the other 'Republican Party' where they were during the war. In the short to medium term SF will remain the voice of nationalism in the north but with all these realignments going on, who knows what will happen but our new dispensation does seem to be creating some sort of dynamic. Whether that can be channelled in the right direction, I remain to be convinced.

So what elections will they be standing in? Local Councils and the Assembly. Glad to see they won't be contesting the Westminister elections.

The SDLP will have no choice, but to merge with FF. If FF do contest elections up here, it will more or less kill of the SDLP votes.

Some interesting reactions:


Fianna Fail 'will organise in NI'

Fianna Fail are to organise in Northern Ireland, Irish Prime Minister Bertie Ahern has confirmed.

It is the first time in the party's 81-year history that efforts have been made to mobilise on an all-Ireland basis.

Mr Ahern said Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern would chair a committee to implement the move.

"This moves reflects the dramatic changes we have seen across the island," the party leader said.

Dermot Ahern said the party did not intend to contest any seats in a Westminster election.

"We wouldn't be interested in going to the House of Commons as a political party. That is for others to do," he said.

"We feel we should have representation in Northern Ireland as a political party."

Earlier on Monday, the SDLP refused to rule out a possible merger with Fianna Fail and party leader Mark Durkan later welcomed the decision to organise in the north.

"As a true republican party, we believe that the social and economic interests of the people of the entire island are best served by ever-deepening co-operation between north and south.  Looks like Mark has already sold his party to Bertie

"We anticipate a healthy and forward-looking debate as a means to forging a new political path for the whole country," Mr Durkan said.

Sinn Fein's John O'Dowd also welcomed Fianna Fail's decision.

"Unfortunately, it has taken Fianna Fail this long to embrace the positive aspects of developing its party throughout the 32 counties," he said.

"But we are encouraged that the taoiseach has now finally acknowledged the importance of such a move."

'Unwise'

However, Ulster Unionist leader Sir Reg Empey said the decision was "unwise and unhelpful".

Empey said that Bertie Ahern and Fianna Fáil had "thrown a grenade into the middle of Northern Ireland politics" by announcing its its intention to organise on an all-Ireland basis.  :D

"The last thing we need is another abstentionist party organising here," Sir Reg said.

"Bertie Ahern at a stroke has transformed himself from a potential partner in the process of normalisation, to a rival."

Commentators have said that Fianna Fail's plans to organise in Northern Ireland have been spurred on by the setting up of a powering-sharing executive at Stormont, making such a move less politically sensitive.

It has also been suggested that its success against Sinn Fein in the Republic's recent election played a part.

Certainly interesting.

What's all this "Irish Prime minister" business?
Has the office of Taoiseach been abolished by Northern Nationalist posters on this forum?

Durkan loses the last bit of respect I had for him anyway.

Quote from: Bogball XV on September 17, 2007, 09:51:15 PM
Durkan loses the last bit of respect I had for him anyway.

You had some?

Quote from: Rossfan on September 17, 2007, 09:50:04 PM
What's all this "Irish Prime minister" business?
Has the office of Taoiseach been abolished by Northern Nationalist posters on this forum?

The report was lifted from BBCNI Ross - illustrates the subtle contempt have for the natives up here.

Quote from: Donagh on September 17, 2007, 09:19:54 PM

SF will be asking the other 'Republican Party' where they were during the war.

You could start by asking some of your MLAs the same question Donagh! :D :D Who do you think you're kidding?  :-[

Quote from: Colonel Cool on September 17, 2007, 10:04:48 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 17, 2007, 09:19:54 PM

SF will be asking the other 'Republican Party' where they were during the war.

You could start by asking some of your MLAs the same question Donagh! :D :D Who do you think you're kidding?  :-[

My MLAs Cool? I simply pointing out the obvious Shinner line of attack. They were here for 80 years while FF were shuffling suitcases full of cash over from Manchester.

Many years ago while I was still a civil servant in Stormont, I sat beside a couple of oul dolls and used to listen to them complaining about the british labour and conservative parties not putting up candidates in northern Ireland. I got so fed up of this one day I chipped in saying that I wished Fianna Fail would put up candidates in the north.

The ladies were speechless, and its a wonder I wasnt escorted on the premises in Castle Buildings.

Quote from: Donagh on September 17, 2007, 10:06:59 PM

My MLAs Cool?

Well we all know you take you orders from Connolly House. Never an original thought! So just where were all the SF MLAs during the troubles when FF were doing the hard work of building the Irish economy? Cathroina Ruane was playing tennis before was parachuted into South Down. Where was Mickey Brady? Michelle O'Neill?

Maybe economic policy is going to be important going forward to make a united Ireland really happen, rather than "what did you do during the Troubles?". That may be why SF are bringing in some candidates without a military background.

Quote from: Donagh on September 17, 2007, 09:32:55 PM
Some interesting reactions:


'Unwise'

However, Ulster Unionist leader Sir Reg Empey said the decision was "unwise and unhelpful".

Empey said that Bertie Ahern and Fianna Fáil had "thrown a grenade into the middle of Northern Ireland politics" by announcing its its intention to organise on an all-Ireland basis.  :D

"The last thing we need is another abstentionist party organising here," Sir Reg said.

"Bertie Ahern at a stroke has transformed himself from a potential partner in the process of normalisation, to a rival."

Commentators have said that Fianna Fail's plans to organise in Northern Ireland have been spurred on by the setting up of a powering-sharing executive at Stormont, making such a move less politically sensitive.

It has also been suggested that its success against Sinn Fein in the Republic's recent election played a part.

a partner to a rival? who the fcuk is he codding. ff are a republican party btw. someone should tell empey it is part of normalisation that the largest party on the island organises all over the island...

Quote from: Bogball XV on September 17, 2007, 09:51:15 PM
Durkan loses the last bit of respect I had for him anyway.

imo durkan is one of the smartest politicians around..

Quote from: Colonel Cool on September 17, 2007, 10:28:16 PM

Well we all know you take you orders from Connolly House. Never an original thought!

Ohh the irony...

Quote
So just where were all the SF MLAs during the troubles when FF were doing the hard work of building the Irish economy? Cathroina Ruane was playing tennis before was parachuted into South Down. Where was Mickey Brady? Michelle O'Neill?

Well having worked with Ruane briefly before she joined SF, I know she was working in the shanty towns of El Salvador and Nicaragua before joining Trocaire and then coming to the north in the 80's to work for the Human Rights Centre. I can't speak for the others you mention but I remember my MLA in Belfast, Alec Maskey getting elected to Belfast Council in the early 80's and subsequently getting shot in the stomach. My MLA from home, John O'Dowd I seem to remember was always around in the 80's taking issue with loyalist marches through Lurgan. 

Quote
Maybe economic policy is going to be important going forward to make a united Ireland really happen, rather than "what did you do during the Troubles?". That may be why SF are bringing in some candidates without a military background.

Now if you ever take the time to read what I posted instead of resorting to knee-jerk reactions and regurgitating some wannabe yuppie clichés, 'going forward' (not an original thought indeed), you might find that the line you have taken such offence with, might not actually be my personal view. Though I can't see the "we were building the economy in the south while you were getting trampled" line winning too many votes north of the border.

Quote from: Donagh on September 17, 2007, 09:19:54 PMJust as the FFers hammered the soft southern Shinners in the last Free State election, SF will be asking the other 'Republican Party' where they were during the war.

Maybe the northern party could run the show next time out. Gerry Adams could take part in the any pre-election leadership debate. His reassuring manner and patrician bearing would more than cancel out any ignorance of economics or politics south of the border.

Hang on . . .

Time to man the Dunnes Stores car parks.

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 12:39:16 AM
Maybe the northern party could run the show next time out. Gerry Adams could take part in the any pre-election leadership debate. His reassuring manner and patrician bearing would more than cancel out any ignorance of economics or politics south of the border.
Hang on . . .

deiseach, my point is that the FFers would find standing for election in the north against an established organization a hell of a lot more difficult than against the Shinners Free State operation – do you disagree?

its no harm that FF will set up in NI, obv a prelude to whats going to happen eventually with an all Ireland unification etc.

It will split the nationalist vote again, which is the only downside (as the unionist vote seems to be polarising to one pole/choice these days), but I hope FF elect a decent new leader , one without corruption coursing through his veins. Cowan the man for me, a great choice of All Ireland Taoiseach.
Peter robinson might squeeze in as taniste (token gesture of appeasement) - as I would expect these two guys to be around for another 15 - 20 years in politics.

As nationalists are guaranteed ministries in the Assembly, splitting the vote doesn't really matter anymore as it only affects the Westminster seats which are pretty much irrelevant now. The only people who'll care about those are the unionists who need the psychological prop.

If FF organize in the North you can be dam sure it will hit the SF wote as well as the SDLP vote if they havent merged (although I doubt they will move North unless its with a SDLP merger).

SF were slapped in the Southern elections and its fascinating to hear this blamed on the Southern party members and not on the shambolic Northern leadership and in particular Adams and his complete failure to articulate a coherent economic policy. In addition his performance in the tv debate was laughable and sank the election campaign.

It would be great to have FF in the North as the SDLP are gone and Northern nationalism deserves better than SF which at present is the only viable option.

Quote from: saffron on September 18, 2007, 10:44:08 AM

SF were slapped in the Southern elections and its fascinating to hear this blamed on the Southern party members and not on the shambolic Northern leadership and in particular Adams and his complete failure to articulate a coherent economic policy. In addition his performance in the tv debate was laughable and sank the election campaign.

I assume this is aimed at me, so perhaps you'd like to point out where I said this saffron?

QuoteJust as the FFers hammered the soft southern Shinners in the last Free State election,

Does the tone and the word soft not indicate that you lay the blame for the election loss with the Southern element of the party?

The SF result in the election must be blamed on Adams after his dismal performance and also because he is party leader. Even Rabbitte took responsibility.

why would the SDLP, a moderate left leaning nationalist party (who are aligned to the Irish Labour Party anyway) tie themselves to a thatcherite, right wing party whose leader is in front of a judge on corruption allegations?

FF are looking to steal someones party machine and if the SDLP have any wit or self respect they will tell Bertie to sling his bent hook.

a bent hook is far better than a straight hook

Quote from: saffron on September 18, 2007, 11:09:51 AM

QuoteJust as the FFers hammered the soft southern Shinners in the last Free State election,

Does the tone and the word soft not indicate that you lay the blame for the election loss with the Southern element of the party?

No it doesn't. As I have pointed out, twice now, the Shinners have very different party organisations on each side of the border, with the northern one a lot studier than the other. Therefore it would be a more interesting contest, with SF using their experience of elections in the north against FF in a similar way FF did to them in the southern election.

Quote
The SF result in the election must be blamed on Adams after his dismal performance and also because he is party leader. Even Rabbitte took responsibility.

Certainly that's a valid point but I'm not sure what it has to do with the FFers coming north.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 10:40:28 AM
As nationalists are guaranteed ministries in the Assembly, splitting the vote doesn't really matter anymore as it only affects the Westminster seats which are pretty much irrelevant now. The only people who'll care about those are the unionists who need the psychological prop.

I was under the assumption that ministries were given out on party strength (no. of MLA's elected), therefore splitting the vote does matter!

As for FF, let them come, they will may wipeout the stoops, and poss gain some of the softer unionist votes, but the political landscape here will not change, SF and the DUP will control either camp for a long time to come.

No word of the blueshirts ? ;D

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 18, 2007, 11:30:51 AM

I was under the assumption that ministries were given out on party strength (no. of MLA's elected), therefore splitting the vote does matter!

Still a PR election to get the MLAs elected, so will only matter in the very odd case and certainly nowhere near the same extent as FPTP.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 18, 2007, 11:30:51 AM
As for FF, let them come, they will may wipeout the stoops, and poss gain some of the softer unionist votes, but the political landscape here will not change, SF and the DUP will control either camp for a long time to come.

Along with Donagh's earlier comment - "...but they'd certainly hoover up most of the soft nationalist vote that remains with the SDLP and I'd say a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class" - I find it utterly baffling that anyone should think that FF would hold any appeal whatever to any Unionist in NI.

They're a Republican party, from the Republic. Whereas Unionists are, well, Unionists from NI...

It's what we've all been disagreeing about for the last 86 years (or 800, if you prefer).

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 18, 2007, 11:30:51 AM
As for FF, let them come, they will may wipeout the stoops, and poss gain some of the softer unionist votes, but the political landscape here will not change, SF and the DUP will control either camp for a long time to come.

Along with Donagh's earlier comment - "...but they'd certainly hoover up most of the soft nationalist vote that remains with the SDLP and I'd say a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class" - I find it utterly baffling that anyone should think that FF would hold any appeal whatever to any Unionist in NI.

They're a Republican party, from the Republic. Whereas Unionists are, well, Unionists from NI...

It's what we've all been disagreeing about for the last 86 years (or 800, if you prefer).

You highlighted the wrong bit Eg. The clue was in "a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class". Money talks and no other Party in Ireland, north or south, facilitates business better that FF. You can be sure that minor ideological matters will be put to one side, when the prospect of making money is presented.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 09:28:43 AM
deiseach, my point is that the FFers would find standing for election in the north against an established organization a hell of a lot more difficult than against the Shinners Free State operation – do you disagree?

I'd agree with you on that.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 11:52:28 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 11:47:45 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on September 18, 2007, 11:30:51 AM
As for FF, let them come, they will may wipeout the stoops, and poss gain some of the softer unionist votes, but the political landscape here will not change, SF and the DUP will control either camp for a long time to come.

Along with Donagh's earlier comment - "...but they'd certainly hoover up most of the soft nationalist vote that remains with the SDLP and I'd say a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class" - I find it utterly baffling that anyone should think that FF would hold any appeal whatever to any Unionist in NI.

They're a Republican party, from the Republic. Whereas Unionists are, well, Unionists from NI...

It's what we've all been disagreeing about for the last 86 years (or 800, if you prefer).

You highlighted the wrong bit Eg. The clue was in "a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class". Money talks and no other Party in Ireland, north or south, facilitates business better that FF. You can be sure that minor ideological matters will be put to one side, when the prospect of making money is presented.

In that case, you'd have expected the NI (Unionist) Business Classes to have thrown their lot in with the "Celtic Tiger" long before now - but I see no sign of that.

I don't doubt for one minute their capacity to be pragmatic - there's hardline DUP activists who regularly drive over the border for their petrol etc - and where co-operation can be shown to be in their interests, they'll do so. After all, their being prepared to share power with SF proves that!

But that's a million miles from being prepared to vote/canvass/support or in any other way further the overall electoral success in NI of a party with a history* and an all-Ireland agenda like theirs.

Utter fantasy, in fact.

* - Actually, with a name like theirs...

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 11:52:28 AM
You highlighted the wrong bit Eg. The clue was in "a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class". Money talks and no other Party in Ireland, north or south, facilitates business better that FF. You can be sure that minor ideological matters will be put to one side, when the prospect of making money is presented.

Are you thinking of any particular "minor ideological matters"?

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 12:37:02 PM
In that case, you'd have expected the NI (Unionist) Business Classes to have thrown their lot in with the "Celtic Tiger" long before now - but I see no sign of that.

astonishing, that really is
what with
1. Never never cross the border
*until theres money to be made and the most staunchest of loyalist/unionist politicians (paisley etc) set their businesses up to trade with and through Dublin.
Then the previously staunch loyalist/unionist graduates/workers venture south first time in their lives to ply their trades and take up careers south of the border during Celtic Tiger times.

2. Surprising the softening of attitude towards the southern gov and peoples by unionist/loyalist that accelerated the whole process in putting together the northern assembley - a lot of it due to their promise of a share of southern spoils - attitudes have softened and even u turned now that a few shekels (euros) are to be had

I am sure I could go on a lot longer, but its hard to type while laughing...

but some folk just dont see any signs of it...(or want to admit seeing this )  :D

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 12:49:32 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 11:52:28 AM
You highlighted the wrong bit Eg. The clue was in "a fair bit of the ex-UUP and Alliance business class". Money talks and no other Party in Ireland, north or south, facilitates business better that FF. You can be sure that minor ideological matters will be put to one side, when the prospect of making money is presented.

Are you thinking of any particular "minor ideological matters"?

When it comes to making money, they're all minor

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 12:37:02 PM

In that case, you'd have expected the NI (Unionist) Business Classes to have thrown their lot in with the "Celtic Tiger" long before now - but I see no sign of that.

I don't doubt for one minute their capacity to be pragmatic - there's hardline DUP activists who regularly drive over the border for their petrol etc - and where co-operation can be shown to be in their interests, they'll do so. After all, their being prepared to share power with SF proves that!

But that's a million miles from being prepared to vote/canvass/support or in any other way further the overall electoral success in NI of a party with a history* and an all-Ireland agenda like theirs.

Utter fantasy, in fact.

* - Actually, with a name like theirs...

Eg it's a different matter when the Party is actually organised in the north and has real power to facilitate business. Dermot Ahern was a pains yesterday to stress in a number of different interviews, how unionists had been writing to him encouraging the Party to organise in the north. Given that there are no serious Parties in the north with the power to support business interests, I don't doubt him.

Quote from: dublinfella on September 18, 2007, 11:13:49 AM
why would the SDLP, a moderate left leaning nationalist party (who are aligned to the Irish Labour Party anyway) tie themselves to a thatcherite, right wing party whose leader is in front of a judge on corruption allegations?

FF are looking to steal someones party machine and if the SDLP have any wit or self respect they will tell Bertie to sling his bent hook.

I knew we'd find common ground eventually DF, been a while coming, but it's worth it!

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 12:56:31 PM
When it comes to making money, they're all minor

So you think that there are Unionists (i.e. someone who supports the Union) out there who are willing to vote for a Nationalist party to make a buck?

Quote from: dublinfella on September 18, 2007, 11:13:49 AM
why would the SDLP, a moderate left leaning nationalist party (who are aligned to the Irish Labour Party anyway) tie themselves to a thatcherite, right wing party whose leader is in front of a judge on corruption allegations?

"It's the economy, stupid" is a quote attributed to James Carville on what matters in American politics. If he were talking about politics in the North, he'd say "it's the border, stupid". No party in the North has an economic policy because no one votes on the economy, it's one big sectarian headcount. And that is why a centrist party like FF appeals to SDLP types.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2007, 12:53:19 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 12:37:02 PM
In that case, you'd have expected the NI (Unionist) Business Classes to have thrown their lot in with the "Celtic Tiger" long before now - but I see no sign of that.

astonishing, that really is
what with
1. Never never cross the border
*until theres money to be made and the most staunchest of loyalist/unionist politicians (paisley etc) set their businesses up to trade with and through Dublin.
Then the previously staunch loyalist/unionist graduates/workers venture south first time in their lives to ply their trades and take up careers south of the border during Celtic Tiger times.

2. Surprising the softening of attitude towards the southern gov and peoples by unionist/loyalist that accelerated the whole process in putting together the northern assembley - a lot of it due to their promise of a share of southern spoils - attitudes have softened and even u turned now that a few shekels (euros) are to be had

I am sure I could go on a lot longer, but its hard to type while laughing...

but some folk just dont see any signs of it...(or want to admit seeing this )  :D

Doing business with the Republic is one thing, as is co-operating on matters of mutual economic interest, even accepting investment by the Dublin Government in NI's roads etc. I have no doubt that the average NI Unionist, whether from the "Business Class" or otherwise, has no great problem with any of that.

But neither do I have any doubt that if FF were to make an impact in the domestic politics of NI, such that it would further the chances of an all-Ireland Republic, then Unionists would reach for the 40 Foot Bargepole that is traditionally kept for such occasions.

That is because economic policies and constitutional politics, however much they may affect each other, can always be distinguished when necessary. Or to put it another way, in order to extend "hands across the border", you don't just need willing hands, you also need a border...

And for all that you may still be "laughing", consider this. The UUP traditionally represented the Unionist Business Classes, with the DUP appealing most in working class Unionist areas. But when Trimble's credibility over constitutional issues such as power-sharing, de-commissioning, the GFA etc came into question, how did the UUP vote react? They went over to the DUP - the party which at least talked the hardest line on the border etc

But hey, what the Hell do I know about the Unionist psyche, compared with a sage like yourself...

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:04:12 PM
So you think that there are Unionists (i.e. someone who supports the Union) out there who are willing to vote for a Nationalist party to make a buck?

Not really but there are many unionists who would quite happily vote for a nationalist party to make a buck.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 12:59:07 PM
Dermot Ahern was a pains yesterday to stress in a number of different interviews, how unionists had been writing to him encouraging the Party to organise in the north.

Yeah right. "Politician Cites unverifiable Evidence as Backing for new Policy Initiative Shocker"



P.S. Did you get permission from Connolly House first before speaking up for Dermot?

I'll tell you one thing, Uncle Tom Hume will not be happy. He was the most outspoken stoop when people tried to set up a De Velera FF cumman in Derry a number of years ago. Ofcourse he cited the usual " it'll drive a wedge between the communities" as his excuse. etc John just been true to his british identity. And what about the blueshirts ? I suppose the Ulster unionists would be there natural party of choice across the border, the PD's will probably bed down with their fellow hardline unionists - the DUP  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 01:24:18 PM


And for all that you may still be "laughing", consider this. The UUP traditionally represented the Unionist Business Classes, with the DUP appealing most in working class Unionist areas. But when Trimble's credibility over constitutional issues such as power-sharing, de-commissioning, the GFA etc came into question, how did the UUP vote react? They went over to the DUP - the party which at least talked the hardest line on the border etc

All very well, but when lined up against FF, the DUP are very small fry indeed. FF administers a powerhouse of the world economy and the DUP, well they could help you get a Visitor Centre in North Antrim.  ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 01:24:18 PM

Doing business with the Republic is one thing, as is co-operating on matters of mutual economic interest, even accepting investment by the Dublin Government in NI's roads etc. I have no doubt that the average NI Unionist, whether from the "Business Class" or otherwise, has no great problem with any of that.

But neither do I have any doubt that if FF were to make an impact in the domestic politics of NI, such that it would further the chances of an all-Ireland Republic, then Unionists would reach for the 40 Foot Bargepole that is traditionally kept for such occasions.

That is because economic policies and constitutional politics, however much they may affect each other, can always be distinguished when necessary. Or to put it another way, in order to extend "hands across the border", you don't just need willing hands, you also need a border...

And for all that you may still be "laughing", consider this. The UUP traditionally represented the Unionist Business Classes, with the DUP appealing most in working class Unionist areas. But when Trimble's credibility over constitutional issues such as power-sharing, de-commissioning, the GFA etc came into question, how did the UUP vote react? They went over to the DUP - the party which at least talked the hardest line on the border etc

But hey, what the Hell do I know about the Unionist psyche, compared with a sage like yourself...

all well and good having your totem 'psyche' up there
but the proof is easily discerned

in years gone past it was never never never
then then money was on offer, all traditions and principles were out the window so the unionists/loyalists could get their slice of it too

I dont want to know their psyche, just been a bit of a difference all of a sudden with the u turn and them coming down to dublin to work where previously they wouldnt hardly say the word 'dublin' without spitting
what made the difference?
money is all that matters to them (I certainly wont condemn them for that) so if they can change their principles so easily, then the FF vote for some is not so far fetched.

you will obv have a lot longer to go to admit the reality to yourself... ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 01:32:22 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 12:59:07 PM
Dermot Ahern was a pains yesterday to stress in a number of different interviews, how unionists had been writing to him encouraging the Party to organise in the north.

Yeah right. "Politician Cites unverifiable Evidence as Backing for new Policy Initiative Shocker"

P.S. Did you get permission from Connolly House first before speaking up for Dermot?

Did you get permission from your mammy to take the day off school?

Quote from: SuperMac on September 18, 2007, 01:34:43 PM
Uncle Tom Hume will not be happy

I'll go to Hell for this, but . . . :D :D :D

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:29:54 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:04:12 PM
So you think that there are Unionists (i.e. someone who supports the Union) out there who are willing to vote for a Nationalist party to make a buck?

Not really but there are many unionists who would quite happily vote for a nationalist party to make a buck.

In the same way as nationalists in NI happily voted for unionists down the decades when the NI economy was much stronger than that of the Free State, with a correspondingly vastly superior Welfare State, Health Service, Higher Education system etc.

Unless, of course, you feel that unionists are fundamentally unprincipled*, unlike their nationalist neighbours, who remain ideologically "pure".


* - I always said James II only had to wave a pasty bap in the faces of the starving Apprentice Boys in Derry and he'd have had the gates opened for him again before you could say "Lundy"...

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 01:43:26 PM
In the same way as nationalists in NI happily voted for unionists down the decades when the NI economy was much stronger than that of the Free State, with a correspondingly vastly superior Welfare State, Health Service, Higher Education system etc.

Which they didn't

Which is your point

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:44:46 PM

Which they didn't

The 'Castle Catholic'?

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:50:46 PM
The 'Castle Catholic'?

That type is probably still voting Unionist

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:52:26 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:50:46 PM
The 'Castle Catholic'?

That type is probably still voting Unionist

No that's not what I'm getting at. My point is that many people will follow the path that presents them with most opportunities. Just like the 'Castle Catholic' who found it advantageous to throw his lot in with the British administration, there will be many unionists who will find it advantageous to throw their lot in with FF when they come north. FF will present middle class unionism with a direct line into the global economy – something no other political party in the north can offer. Undoubtedly there are many unionists who will quite happily put any ideological differences to one side when it comes to dealing with the Drumcondra Bagman.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:35:25 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 01:24:18 PM


And for all that you may still be "laughing", consider this. The UUP traditionally represented the Unionist Business Classes, with the DUP appealing most in working class Unionist areas. But when Trimble's credibility over constitutional issues such as power-sharing, de-commissioning, the GFA etc came into question, how did the UUP vote react? They went over to the DUP - the party which at least talked the hardest line on the border etc

All very well, but when lined up against FF, the DUP are very small fry indeed. FF administers a powerhouse of the world economy and the DUP, well they could help you get a Visitor Centre in North Antrim.  ::)

Not what I said, or implied.  You and GDU considered that FF might have electoral appeal to Unionists from the Business Class. I consider that whatever the economic appeal of FF, when it comes to the crunch, voters in NI vote on the constitutional issue.

In any case, even if you really believe the the Republic is a "powerhouse of the world economy" (news to China, India, USA, Germany, Japan etc, I'd have thought!), it still hardly compares with the UK. You know, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is, the country which Unionists in NI have spent the last 40 years campaigning to remain in, even in the face of a murderous campaign which, amongst other things, saw the local economy bombed, burned and threatened on a daily basis...  

P.S. When donning their Pragmatic Glasses, Unionists can also use them to see that FF aren't always going to be in power in the Republic, never mind in an All-Ireland state. And even when they are, how much influence are a few northern, formerly Unionist, business types really going to have in FF's inner sanctum in Dublin? Whereas, Unionists have been in power in NI, to one extent or another, for most of the last 86 years.

FFS lads give it a rest :( :-\

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 02:01:35 PM
Not what I said, or implied.  You and GDU considered that FF might have electoral appeal to Unionists from the Business Class. I consider that whatever the economic appeal of FF, when it comes to the crunch, voters in NI vote on the constitutional issue.

In any case, even if you really believe the the Republic is a "powerhouse of the world economy" (news to China, India, USA, Germany, Japan etc, I'd have thought!), it still hardly compares with the UK. You know, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That is, the country which Unionists in NI have spent the last 40 years campaigning to remain in, even in the face of a murderous campaign which, amongst other things, saw the local economy bombed, burned and threatened on a daily basis... 

P.S. When donning their Pragmatic Glasses, Unionists can also use them to see that FF aren't always going to be in power in the Republic, never mind in an All-Ireland state. And even when they are, how much influence are a few northern, formerly Unionist, business types really going to have in FF's inner sanctum in Dublin? Whereas, Unionists have been in power in NI, to one extent or another, for most of the last 86 years.

The difference is that unionists from the north have no influence with the government of the UK. Money talks, bullshit walks as they might say. FF will facilitate unionist business interests, the UK government will do what's best for the south east of England. I suppose that would suit you anyway Egg...

PS In case you haven't noticed the southern state is a single party state for all intents and purposes. FF will never be far from government and will always have the influence and business contacts to make things happen (on a slightly bigger scale than Visitors Centres of course).

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:57:24 PMNo that's not what I'm getting at. My point is that many people will follow the path that presents them with most opportunities. Just like the 'Castle Catholic' who found it advantageous to throw his lot in with the British administration, there will be many unionists who will find it advantageous to throw their lot in with FF when they come north. FF will present middle class unionism with a direct line into the global economy – something no other political party in the north can offer. Undoubtedly there are many unionists who will quite happily put any ideological differences to one side when it comes to dealing with the Drumcondra Bagman.

Your economic viewpoint is odd, to say the least. There are few no private investment opportunities in Ireland (the state) that are not also available to people in the United Kingdom. We all live in a single market, and bullshit like "a direct line into the global economy" won't change that. The opportunites presented by the state sector of the UK, on the other hand, will always dwarf those in Ireland because the UK is so much larger. So those who want to make a buck by risking their own money have no incentive to change the status quo, and those who want to stick their snouts in a government-financed pork barrel are much better off with the status quo.

"a direct line into the global economy" - are you David McWilliams?

QuoteDrumcondra Bagman.

Quality Donagh as opposed to the Poleglass bagman yous boys used  ;)

I'd doubt there are huge numbers of unionists willing to vote FF for economic gain - FF will be a primarily Nationalist party.

I'd be of the opinion that as many have said FF they are only interested in power and are covering their bets by moving into the North. FF are not the only ones who believe that the present political momentum may lead to a form of unity - just ask Sir Kenneth Bloomfield. And if this happens then it will stand to them to have a head start on FG etc. It has the added benefit of giving them some say in the Northern administration which might have economic benefits North and South and allowing then to completely remove SF's claim to be the only truly Republican party and heading off any remaining SF challenge in the 26.

Although unity in any form remote at the minute but its long past the time we stopped looking for immediate resolution of the issue and looked long term.

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 02:16:09 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:57:24 PMNo that's not what I'm getting at. My point is that many people will follow the path that presents them with most opportunities. Just like the 'Castle Catholic' who found it advantageous to throw his lot in with the British administration, there will be many unionists who will find it advantageous to throw their lot in with FF when they come north. FF will present middle class unionism with a direct line into the global economy – something no other political party in the north can offer. Undoubtedly there are many unionists who will quite happily put any ideological differences to one side when it comes to dealing with the Drumcondra Bagman.

Your economic viewpoint is odd, to say the least. There are few no private investment opportunities in Ireland (the state) that are not also available to people in the United Kingdom. We all live in a single market, and bullshit like "a direct line into the global economy" won't change that. The opportunites presented by the state sector of the UK, on the other hand, will always dwarf those in Ireland because the UK is so much larger. So those who want to make a buck by risking their own money have no incentive to change the status quo, and those who want to stick their snouts in a government-financed pork barrel are much better off with the status quo.

"a direct line into the global economy" - are you David McWilliams?

See my response to eggy above.

Quote from: saffron on September 18, 2007, 02:16:21 PM

QuoteDrumcondra Bagman.

Quality Donagh as opposed to the Poleglass bagman yous boys used  ;)

I'd doubt there are huge numbers of unionists willing to vote FF for economic gain - FF will be a primarily Nationalist party.

I'd be of the opinion that as many have said FF they are only interested in power and are covering their bets by moving into the North. FF are not the only ones who believe that the present political momentum may lead to a form of unity - just ask Sir Kenneth Bloomfield. And if this happens then it will stand to them to have a head start on FG etc. It has the added benefit of giving them some say in the Northern administration which might have economic benefits North and South and allowing then to completely remove SF's claim to be the only truly Republican party and heading off any remaining SF challenge in the 26.

Although unity in any form remote at the minute but its long past the time we stopped looking for immediate resolution of the issue and looked long term.

I agree.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:50:46 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:44:46 PM

Which they didn't

The 'Castle Catholic'?

If unionists are prepared to consider voting across the usual tribal lines for the sake of a quick buck, then you would expect* nationalists formerly to have done the same when the economic tables were turned. Which would be consistent, I suppose, even if it is contrary to my own particular opinion.

Yet here you are citing "Castle Catholics" as evidence of the willingness of people in NI to be seduced by the filthy lucre, when all along, Republicans like yourself previously denied the very existence of CC's (other than a very few, deluded individuals).


* - I suppose this conundrum could be explained, as I indicated earlier, by a greater inherently ideological integrity amongst Nationalists in NI than Unionists. But considering e.g. how few Police/UDR/Prison Officers etc were ever "turned" by the IRA during The Troubles, compared with how many IRA members were "turned" (i.e into agents and informers) by the Security Forces, that thesis seems rather fanciful to me. Perhaps the likes of Denis Donaldson, with his Planter name, was never really a Republican in the first place! Or that chap, Adams?

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 02:12:44 PM
The difference is that unionists from the north have no influence with the government of the UK. Money talks, bullshit walks as they might say. FF will facilitate unionist business interests, the UK government will do what's best for the south east of England. I suppose that would suit you anyway Egg...

More spurious agit-prop jargon. I presume when you say "facilitate unionist business interests" you mean brown envelopes and suitcases stuffed with cash. But how many unionist businessmen are saying "cor, I'll have a slice of that!"? I'd bet it's a hell of a lot less than would ever say "I see Westminster is ploughing another billion quid into the economy as part of the peace dividend", a billion quid being the kind of figure that keeps Brian Cowan awake at night but which Alistair Darling wouldn't notice if it fell out of his pocket.

Shinner wishful thinking, all of it.

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 02:24:50 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 01:50:46 PM

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 01:44:46 PM

Which they didn't

The 'Castle Catholic'?

If unionists are prepared to consider voting across the usual tribal lines for the sake of a quick buck, then you would expect* nationalists formerly to have done the same when the economic tables were turned. Which would be consistent, I suppose, even if it is contrary to my own particular opinion.

Yet here you are citing "Castle Catholics" as evidence of the willingness of people in NI to be seduced by the filthy lucre, when all along, Republicans like yourself previously denied the very existence of CC's (other than a very few, deluded individuals).


* - I suppose this conundrum could be explained, as I indicated earlier, by a greater inherently ideological integrity amongst Nationalists in NI than Unionists. But considering e.g. how few Police/UDR/Prison Officers etc were ever "turned" by the IRA during The Troubles, compared with how many IRA members were "turned" (i.e into agents and informers) by the Security Forces, that thesis seems rather fanciful to me. Perhaps the likes of Denis Donaldson, with his Planter name, was never really a Republican in the first place! Or that chap, Adams?

You're just talking shite now eggy. Sorry I don't have time to deal with such tangents, have work to do...

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 02:32:16 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 02:12:44 PM
The difference is that unionists from the north have no influence with the government of the UK. Money talks, bullshit walks as they might say. FF will facilitate unionist business interests, the UK government will do what's best for the south east of England. I suppose that would suit you anyway Egg...

More spurious agit-prop jargon. I presume when you say "facilitate unionist business interests" you mean brown envelopes and suitcases stuffed with cash. But how many unionist businessmen are saying "cor, I'll have a slice of that!"? I'd bet it's a hell of a lot less than would ever say "I see Westminster is ploughing another billion quid into the economy as part of the peace dividend", a billion quid being the kind of figure that keeps Brian Cowan awake at night but which Alistair Darling wouldn't notice if it fell out of his pocket.

Shinner wishful thinking, all of it.

That's not what I was thinking but whatever you reckon yourself deiseach

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 02:37:24 PM
That's not what I was thinking but whatever you reckon yourself deiseach

So what are you thinking? What is it the Free State can offer that can compensate for the loss of the slush fund that is the British Treasury, which in one year back in the late 80's BORROWED more than the Irish Exchequer SPENT?

QuoteWhat is it the Free State can offer that can compensate for the loss of the slush fund that is the British Treasury

That arguments weak they might have more money but they also have around 55 million more people to share it around. Gordon Brown has made it clear the days of throwing money at the North are over - its not like he doesnt have his own pressing economic problems.

Quote from: saffron on September 18, 2007, 02:50:31 PM
That arguments weak they might have more money but they also have around 55 million more people to share it around. Gordon Brown has made it clear the days of throwing money at the North are over - its not like he doesnt have his own pressing economic problems.

Think of it this way. Whatever one thinks the correct number of people directly employed by the state in the North is, I think we can all agree that it is "a lot higher than it is in any other part of these islands". In any UI scenario, there is going to be one almighty crunch in those numbers - I think they call it unemployment. If businessmen truly are as clinically self-interested as Donagh seems to think, they will run a mile / 1.6 kilometres from such a possibility.

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 03:00:05 PM

Quote from: saffron on September 18, 2007, 02:50:31 PM
That arguments weak they might have more money but they also have around 55 million more people to share it around. Gordon Brown has made it clear the days of throwing money at the North are over - its not like he doesnt have his own pressing economic problems.

Think of it this way. Whatever one thinks the correct number of people directly employed by the state in the North is, I think we can all agree that it is "a lot higher than it is in any other part of these islands". In any UI scenario, there is going to be one almighty crunch in those numbers - I think they call it unemployment. If businessmen truly are as clinically self-interested as Donagh seems to think, they will run a mile / 1.6 kilometres from such a possibility.

if businessmen think they will make money for themselves , then they wont give a fiddlers about anyone else, especially the ni civil servants who will be unemployed en masse

Quote from: lynchbhoy on September 18, 2007, 03:02:11 PM
if businessmen think they will make money for themselves , then they wont give a fiddlers about anyone else, especially the ni civil servants who will be unemployed en masse

Because NI civil servants don't spend money, do they? They'll probably spend more when they're bored on the dole.

(I await inevitable quips about Scrooge-like civil servants)

deiseach, the businessmen don't want more intervention and spending such as what went on under the Brits, quite the opposite in fact. They want a competitive economy – that's what the FFers can offer which the Brits so far haven't managed. To be competitive will mean getting rid of the huge civil service and getting those people skilled in different areas, it means cutting industrial rates, tax varying powers, investment in R&D, regional development strategies etc...

The plain simple fact as I have repeated ad nauseum is that the Brits don't really care about what goes on over here. They will continue to throw the locals a few quid so long as they don't become troublesome, but that's all and certainly not enough for a businessperson with ambition. FF in government in the north has the potential to get involved and make things happen – as they are perceived to have done in the south. My point is that there are many unionists who would jump at the chance to have that kind of dynamism running affairs in the north. Do you disagree with that point? 

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:16:06 PM
deiseach, the businessmen don't want more intervention and spending such as what went on under the Brits, quite the opposite in fact. They want a competitive economy – that's what the FFers can offer which the Brits so far haven't managed. To be competitive will mean getting rid of the huge civil service and getting those people skilled in different areas, it means cutting industrial rates, tax varying powers, investment in R&D, regional development strategies etc...

Businessmen down here crib about intervention and red tape and bureaucracy all the time and you don't have a shred of empirical evidence that it is worse in the UK. As for them not wanting more spending, of course they want more spending! Government money is the best kind of money, no danger of them going bankrupt or refusing to cough up on time. The Irish Business and Employers Confederation (Ibec) is not nicknamed Ibeg for nothing. You really do give businessmen too much credit, they'd much rather a taxpayer funded white elephant ice hockey arena than "investment in R&D" (as if the government does that down here).

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:16:06 PMThe plain simple fact as I have repeated ad nauseum is that the Brits don't really care about what goes on over here. They will continue to throw the locals a few quid so long as they don't become troublesome, but that's all and certainly not enough for a businessperson with ambition. FF in government in the north has the potential to get involved and make things happen – as they are perceived to have done in the south. My point is that there are many unionists who would jump at the chance to have that kind of dynamism running affairs in the north. Do you disagree with that point? 

I disagree. The "few quid" you refer to, I refer you to my repeated references to the might of the British Treasury. The Irish Exchequer cannot match the kind of sums that are redistributed to the North via the Barnett formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula). There is no way the current Irish state is going to contribute €1.29 for every €1 received from the North. If unionist businessmen really are so willing to go where the money is, that one salient fact - even if one discounts any talk of peace dividends from Westminister - should keep them right where they are.

I'm really quite impressed by this whole image of dynamic businessmen buying into Schumpeter's theory of creative destruction, contemplating the effect that fiscal drag has on the overall competitiveness of the economy and resenting the extra costs imposed by the insistence of the UK on retaining rights of seignurage. Forgive me if I have a more jaundiced image of cattle hauliers, ball bearing manufacturers and shopkeepers for whom such concepts are just so much baloney.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:16:06 PM
FF in government in the north has the potential to get involved and make things happen – as they are perceived to have done in the south. My point is that there are many unionists who would jump at the chance to have that kind of dynamism running affairs in the north.

If FF were ever to gain enough seats to merit Ministerial posts at Stormont, they would still have to work within the confines* of the existing power-sharing set-up, according to the overall budget allocated to them by Westminster. As such, they might well be able to weave the prettiest basket, but they'd still be "basketcases", just like their fellow Ministers.

Unless, of course, their place at Stormont enabled them to "bring their own bottle to the party", from the cellars in Leinster House. Which sounds all fine and dandy, except that I cannot see the Republic's taxpayers sitting idly by, whilst their hard-earned flows across the border to keep a million Unionists etc in new BMW's etc, especially should the Republic's economy take a downturn!

As for said Unionists, as Deiseach has pointed out, with the EU etc, there is presently nothing really stopping any Northerner from taking a ride on the Celtic Tiger, just like their Southern neighbours. Why, they can even relocate their business or take their holidays etc South of the border, should it suit (or remain in the North, if preferred), whilst all the time NI remains part of the UK.

I think it's called "Having Your Cake and Eating It"?   ;)


* - One thing which might have an impact on FF's ability to recreate another economic miracle in the wee North, to match their achievements in the South, may be the fact that their methods would be open to scrutiny and audit by Westminster, who possibly take a dimmer view of "Government by Brown Envelope" than their counterparts in Dublin. Indeed, the UK Press and Media might be a little more curious as to what goes on than we see from their fellow hacks in the Republic. Not to mention the respective Judiciaries... :D

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 03:47:54 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:16:06 PM
deiseach, the businessmen don't want more intervention and spending such as what went on under the Brits, quite the opposite in fact. They want a competitive economy – that's what the FFers can offer which the Brits so far haven't managed. To be competitive will mean getting rid of the huge civil service and getting those people skilled in different areas, it means cutting industrial rates, tax varying powers, investment in R&D, regional development strategies etc...

Businessmen down here crib about intervention and red tape and bureaucracy all the time and you don't have a shred of empirical evidence that it is worse in the UK. As for them not wanting more spending, of course they want more spending! Government money is the best kind of money, no danger of them going bankrupt or refusing to cough up on time. The Irish Business and Employers Confederation (Ibec) is not nicknamed Ibeg for nothing. You really do give businessmen too much credit, they'd much rather a taxpayer funded white elephant ice hockey arena than "investment in R&D" (as if the government does that down here).

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:16:06 PMThe plain simple fact as I have repeated ad nauseum is that the Brits don't really care about what goes on over here. They will continue to throw the locals a few quid so long as they don't become troublesome, but that's all and certainly not enough for a businessperson with ambition. FF in government in the north has the potential to get involved and make things happen – as they are perceived to have done in the south. My point is that there are many unionists who would jump at the chance to have that kind of dynamism running affairs in the north. Do you disagree with that point? 

I disagree. The "few quid" you refer to, I refer you to my repeated references to the might of the British Treasury. The Irish Exchequer cannot match the kind of sums that are redistributed to the North via the Barnett formula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barnett_Formula). There is no way the current Irish state is going to contribute €1.29 for every €1 received from the North. If unionist businessmen really are so willing to go where the money is, that one salient fact - even if one discounts any talk of peace dividends from Westminister - should keep them right where they are.

I'm really quite impressed by this whole image of dynamic businessmen buying into Schumpeter's theory of creative destruction, contemplating the effect that fiscal drag has on the overall competitiveness of the economy and resenting the extra costs imposed by the insistence of the UK on retaining rights of seignurage. Forgive me if I have a more jaundiced image of cattle hauliers, ball bearing manufacturers and shopkeepers for whom such concepts are just so much baloney.

Ach deiseach read what I said ffs.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:51:58 PM
Ach deiseach read what I said ffs.

That's it? Bloody hell . . .

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 04:04:33 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 03:51:58 PM
Ach deiseach read what I said ffs.

That's it? Bloody hell . . .

Sorry to disappoint but most of your post was irrelevant to the point I was making. Nowhere did I mention the Irish government taking over the British subsidy or whether there is as much bureaucracy in the south as the north.

Simply that there is a perception that FF is the party of business. If they come north, they will again be perceived to have more power and influence than any of the unionist parties in the north. This alone will be enough to attract unionists would want to progress in business and develop a competitive economy (as opposed to the bloated public sector which sucks up most of the current resources).

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
Sorry to disappoint but most of your post was irrelevant to the point I was making. Nowhere did I mention the Irish government taking over the British subsidy or whether there is as much bureaucracy in the south as the north.

The fact that you don't even see the question as being worth asking, let alone provide an answer to it, shows your appreciation of business.

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 02:43:25 PM
So what are you thinking? What is it the Free State can offer that can compensate for the loss of the slush fund that is the British Treasury, which in one year back in the late 80's BORROWED more than the Irish Exchequer SPENT?

wtf has that got to do with anything? and the usa spends more on coffee before 11am on any given day then the uk spends on health in a year. so what? if you want to know what the civil service in the north will be doing down the road in any constitutional set up its this, they'll be in income producing jobs or unemployable. per capita the roi has mastered that better than anyone else. if you want to do comparsions go goggle the irish/british gdp or productivity index or check annual economic growth this past 15 years..

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 06:27:15 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 04:21:16 PM
Sorry to disappoint but most of your post was irrelevant to the point I was making. Nowhere did I mention the Irish government taking over the British subsidy or whether there is as much bureaucracy in the south as the north.

The fact that you don't even see the question as being worth asking, let alone provide an answer to it, shows your appreciation of business.

I didn't say it wasn't worth asking, just not relevant to the particular point I raised.

Quote from: Evil Genius on September 18, 2007, 02:24:50 PM
If unionists are prepared to consider voting across the usual tribal lines for the sake of a quick buck, then you would expect* nationalists formerly to have done the same when the economic tables were turned. Which would be consistent, I suppose, even if it is contrary to my own particular opinion.

i wouldnt think ff would get one unionist to vote for it, although with the way paisley is flip flopping lately i would rule nothing out. but if they merge with the sdlp i would see them doing very well and eating into the sf vote.... we might actually see ministers from one party (ff!) north and south.  its some cheek of empey to say 1) its the last thing the north needs (i thought that was violence) 2) berties throwing a hand grenade into northern politics by suggesting this (could he move on from the violent methaphors). its something i'd love to see ff do and the unionists can do fcuk all about it...

Quote from: magickingdom on September 18, 2007, 06:42:41 PM
wtf has that got to do with anything? and the usa spends more on coffee before 11am on any given day then the uk spends on health in a year. so what?

The point is that the cost of NI is barely noticeable to the British economy, just like the way (for example) the United States can afford to run the licence-to-incinerate-money that is Nasa.

Quote from: magickingdom on September 18, 2007, 06:42:41 PMif you want to know what the civil service in the north will be doing down the road in any constitutional set up its this, they'll be in income producing jobs or unemployable.

We can't - or at least we don't - ask people who have worked in the civil service to take up jobs in Tescos or McDonalds, so either they find new jobs which match their bureaucratic skills or they go onto the ranks of the long-term unemployed. If there is a group of people up North who are so motivated by economic matters that they will let it affect their attitude to the constitutioinal situation, then any of those who are employed by the state are going to opt for the status quo

(It should be noted that I don't believe such a group exists, or not in such significant numbers as to matter)

Quote from: magickingdom on September 18, 2007, 06:42:41 PMper capita the roi has mastered that better than anyone else. if you want to do comparsions go goggle the irish/british gdp or productivity index or check annual economic growth this past 15 years..

It's easy to go up when you're starting at the bottom - relatively speaking , of course

There are some fanciful ideas being spouted here. Does anyone really think that a certain Unionist "class" will change their basically inbuilt views because a ROI party will organise in Northern Ireland? All FF will do if they don't merge with the SDLP is split the nationalist vote. Even then it will have no bearing on a border poll. No matter what Gordon, Bertie or anyone else believes a border poll is the only thing that will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position, and the DUP seem quite excited about the idea of having one.
I can't see any real benefit to FF in organising in Northern Ireland. They risk embarrassment if they do go to the polls, possibly on the scale of SF's c**k-up in the last ROI elections. 

QuoteWe can't - or at least we don't - ask people who have worked in the civil service to take up jobs in Tescos or McDonald

Whatever happens in the 6 counties it will be a slow and gradual change. Assuming peace and a measure of prosperity then things will evolve. Civil servants will not be thrown out, but despite an increasing population there may not be as many recruited at the entry level. This won't cause any hardship as many will prefer the better paid private sector jobs.

QuoteIf there is a group of people up North who are so motivated by economic matters that they will let it affect their attitude to the constitutional situation,

in the past the economic arguements meant that people didn't really have to think about unity. Now that there is likely to be little difference in the economic aspects of things than people have to really think about the cultural and identify issues. The question is posed, you can't say that NI is in the UK because the ROI is a basket case, when in many ways the ROI is the envy of other European countries. You are then down to saying that NI should be in the UK for some other reason and those reasons will be debated. The status quo is no longer seen as the only possible outcome. This debate doesn't mean that people will change their views but as events in the South have shown people's views do change fairly quickly in some cases.

QuoteIt's easy to go up when you're starting at the bottom - relatively speaking , of course

Not that easy or Haiti or Burkino Faso would have a huge growth rate.

Quoteborder poll is the only thing that will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position, and the DUP seem quite excited about the idea of having one.

Have such a poll, but only after a serious attempt to identify the detail of the arrangements proposed. Having a poll where there is great clarity about the Uk part of the deal and little about the UI part of the deal is trading on fear of the unknown. Perhaps the only benefit of FF involvement is that it might assist clarity on the UI offer.

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 07:36:27 PM

It's easy to go up when you're starting at the bottom - relatively speaking , of course

bollix or maybe you can explain that to me, were talking about two developed countries here.

Quote from: Solomon Kane on September 18, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
There are some fanciful ideas being spouted here. Does anyone really think that a certain Unionist "class" will change their basically inbuilt views because a ROI party will organise in Northern Ireland? All FF will do if they don't merge with the SDLP is split the nationalist vote. Even then it will have no bearing on a border poll. No matter what Gordon, Bertie or anyone else believes a border poll is the only thing that will change Northern Ireland's constitutional position, and the DUP seem quite excited about the idea of having one.   I can't see any real benefit to FF in organising in Northern Ireland. They risk embarrassment if they do go to the polls, possibly on the scale of SF's c**k-up in the last ROI elections. 

solomon, a border poll would be a distaster for the north right now. it will result in a unionist majority but with a nationalist vote in the 40-45% region it would lead to a very unstable situation going forward imo. i think your right about ff - unless they merge with the sdlp they risk embarrassment just like the conservatives when they stood

Quote from: Solomon Kane on September 18, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
There are some fanciful ideas being spouted here. Does anyone really think that a certain Unionist "class" will change their basically inbuilt views because a ROI party will organise in Northern Ireland?

Who said that?

Quote from: deiseach on September 18, 2007, 02:43:25 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 02:37:24 PM
That's not what I was thinking but whatever you reckon yourself deiseach

So what are you thinking? What is it the Free State can offer that can compensate for the loss of the slush fund that is the British Treasury, which in one year back in the late 80's BORROWED more than the Irish Exchequer SPENT?

I reckon the Irish exchequer most likely borrowed more than was spent every year throughout the 80's ;)

I wonder if FF got into power up north would they start some sort of a sell off of the schools and hospitals?  I mean it wouldn't be fair to operate two tiered systems in these areas and they could maybe raise a few pound that could be squirrelled away somewhere (under a bed most likely).
Of course alternatively, they could see how first world economies supply these services and they might decide that maybe in the distant future the south could aspire to provide its citizens with such services - but of course I'm joking, the sell off would be more appealing.

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 08:46:04 PM

Quote from: Solomon Kane on September 18, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
There are some fanciful ideas being spouted here. Does anyone really think that a certain Unionist "class" will change their basically inbuilt views because a ROI party will organise in Northern Ireland?

Who said that?

You, 3rd post down. ;)
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4781.0

Quote from: Solomon Kane on September 18, 2007, 09:22:12 PM

Quote from: Donagh on September 18, 2007, 08:46:04 PM

Quote from: Solomon Kane on September 18, 2007, 08:10:13 PM
There are some fanciful ideas being spouted here. Does anyone really think that a certain Unionist "class" will change their basically inbuilt views because a ROI party will organise in Northern Ireland?

Who said that?

You, 3rd post down. ;)
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=4781.0

No I didn't. Go read it again.

Any truth in the reports that FF took more new members at Freshers Week in the various Universities in the North by 4:1 ?

QuoteAny truth in the reports that FF took more new members at Freshers Week in the various Universities in the North by 4:1 ?

Good God now that would be depressing.

Here's a report on it. They may do well in Derry but I can't see them getting too many recruits at Coleraine, Belfast or Jordanstown. Early days though.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7012941.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7012941.stm)

Quote from: stephenite on September 26, 2007, 07:48:00 AM
Any truth in the reports that FF took more new members at Freshers Week in the various Universities in the North by 4:1 ?

Nope. As a matter of fact as they aren't actually a recognised club at Queen's I don't even think they are allowed to have a stand.

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=26874 (http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=26874)

Politics.ie mention they're recruiting in Queens, not sure of their sources mind you

Quote from: stephenite on September 27, 2007, 07:57:24 AM
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=26874 (http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=26874)

Politics.ie mention they're recruiting in Queens, not sure of their sources mind you

As far as I know they can only take names unofficially with a view to forming a club or society in the future once recognised by the Union. I'd be very surprised if a stall was given to them.

They had a stall in the university yesterday

Quote from: nifan on September 27, 2007, 10:09:15 AM
They had a stall in the university yesterday

How did that work then - did they pay for it?

Quote from: Donagh on September 27, 2007, 10:28:11 AM

Quote from: nifan on September 27, 2007, 10:09:15 AM
They had a stall in the university yesterday

How did that work then - did they pay for it?

What are the rules governing stalls? Nothing a brown paper bag with some cash can't overcome I'm sure ;)

Only clubs recognized by the union should be allowed to recruit inside the university.

When the NI supporters club was started we had to get at least 20 names, and then go through the university senate to have the club constitution accepted to become officially recognized..

Ive no idea how FF managed it, they where certainly there as a club taking members as far as I could tell. Anyone joining a queens society should be registered in the membership books provided by the union - if they had these then it would imply the are seen as an official club.

They need 20 members to register and be officially recognised as a club/society by Queens SU, as said by Nifan

They've taken south Armagh and now the march continues to south Down next weekend. I wonder will FourTimes come out of hiding to lead the assault?

Quote from: Donagh on September 02, 2009, 03:55:37 PM
They've taken south Armagh and now the march continues to south Down next weekend. I wonder will FourTimes come out of hiding to lead the assault?

He's waiting anxiously in the bunkers.  ;)

Fianna Fáil in the north? Whatever next, Sinn Fein in the South?  ;)

Quote from: Donagh on September 02, 2009, 03:55:37 PM
They've taken south Armagh and now the march continues to south Down next weekend. I wonder will FourTimes come out of hiding to lead the assault?

Thanks for bumping.

Found this gem within.....FF administers a powerhouse of the world economy  ;D

You're sum pup Donagh. ;)

Ipso facto both are in tatters.

http://seosamhsonar.blogspot.com/2009/09/historic-fianna-fail-meeting-in-co-down.html

QuoteA short distance from the constituency office in Downpatrick, Co. Down, of the Social Democratic and Labour MP, Eddie McGrady, local Fianna Fáil supporters met on Saturday evening, in the historic Denvers Hotel, to launch a Fianna Fáil forum group for the South Down region.

Fianna Fáil party heavyweights who addressed the meeting were; The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Mr Dermot Ahern, TD, ; Éamon Ó Cuív T.D., Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs; and a grandson of party founder Éamon de Valera; and Dr. Rory O'Hanlon, TD; a former Ceann Comhairle of Dáil Éireann; (House Speaker) 2002 - 2007.

In his opening remarks, Gerald Kelly, a Co. Down forum member, said it was fitting that the meeting should be held in Denvers, as the establishment could trace its history back to a time when the United Irishmen had met there, leading up to the rebellion of 1798. Daniel O'Connell had also addressed a meeting from the hotel balcony, as he held monster meeting throughout the country, during the fight for Catholic emancipation.

All three speakers from the party stressed that they were there to listen and learn form local people, and that there would be no dictates from party headquarters as to how, or at what speed, party organisation should take place.

Minister Ó Cuív, in a light-hearted moment, reminded the audience that his family had a 100% voting record running in South Down, referring to the election of his grandfather as a Stormont MP for the area, in 1933.

The first speaker from the audience to address the forum was Harvey Bicker, a former member of the Ulster Unionist Party, and member of the Down District Council, who quit his party in February of this year, and joined Fianna Fáil. Mr. Bicker, originally from Banbridge, told the meeting how his family's commitment to Republican ideals goes back even further than their involvement in the '98 rebellion. He received a standing ovation from the audience.

Mr. Bicker, a retired Colonel, served in both the British army and the Ulster Defence Regiment, he now serves on President McAlleese's Council of State.

Local Councillor, Peter Fitzpatrick, from the SDLP, also welcomed the formation of the Fianna Fáil forum.
Martin McAllister, a Co. Armagh Fianna Fáil forum member, from Crossmaglen, also attended the meeting. A similar group has been established in the strongly Republican heartland area, and have opened an office in the village.

The move by Fianna Fáil to establish the forums is in keeping with a resolution adopted at the party conference last February. The resolution called for the party to establish machinery for party members in the north of Ireland, to meet with Fianna Fáil elected officials, party officers, and southern-based membership.

Did anyone see Hearts & Minds yesterday.  Martin McAllister is opening the new FF office in Crossmaglen.  It reports that there will be Fianna Fail forums in all 6 northern counties by the end of the year. 

They are getting geared up in Newry & Armagh for the 2011 assembly elections.  I reckon if FF committ to this properly then there is a lot of votes to be taken.

SF said that it will only affect the SDLP.   The SDLP said it will only affect SF.  They are both full of shit!

If the FF'ers do this properly, through nationally known figures such as Dermot Ahern, Eamon O'Cuiv and Rory O'Hanlon, and recruit some good high profile people (including stealing some from SF & SDLP) then they have a real future in the North. 

Quote from: Feckitt on November 27, 2009, 12:31:28 PM
Did anyone see Hearts & Minds yesterday.  Martin McAllister is opening the new FF office in Crossmaglen.  It reports that there will be Fianna Fail forums in all 6 northern counties by the end of the year. 

They are getting geared up in Newry & Armagh for the 2011 assembly elections.  I reckon if FF committ to this properly then there is a lot of votes to be taken.

SF said that it will only affect the SDLP.   The SDLP said it will only affect SF.  They are both full of shit!

If the FF'ers do this properly, through nationally known figures such as Dermot Ahern, Eamon O'Cuiv and Rory O'Hanlon, and recruit some good high profile people (including stealing some from SF & SDLP) then they have a real future in the North.

FF are f**ked down south . Why would anyone up North vote for them?

Are FF repositioning themselves as a Northern Irish party. With no future in the Dail, maybe they believe they can best scam Westminister for the next 85 years.  :D 

Because the North is not a real country.  Virtually everyone in the North votes according to identity.  Economic policies do not come into it.  I would vote FF because I want to vote for an All-Ireland party that aren't Sinn Fein.  The SDLP are dead, they've served there purpose, and there time is up.  SF served their purpose, and there time is up as well.  Also bringing FF into the north might help rid the south of the some of the 'Little 26 county-ism' which has become more prevalent in recent years.

Wouldn't write FF off just yet. Will (like all Govt incumbents) probably lose next General Election....... but to say they are f...ked is ott.
A new leader and the putting out to pasture of the "old guard" and FF will be back with a vengeance. Still have the loyalty of the small farmer and the urban working classes by and large (though not as much as they had).

FF also have a better calibre of TD which garners them votes despite the party's unpopularity.

Quote from: Feckitt on November 27, 2009, 12:44:15 PM
Because the North is not a real country.  Virtually everyone in the North votes according to identity.  Economic policies do not come into it.  I would vote FF because I want to vote for an All-Ireland party that aren't Sinn Fein.  The SDLP are dead, they've served there purpose, and there time is up.  SF served their purpose, and there time is up as well.  Also bringing FF into the north might help rid the south of the some of the 'Little 26 county-ism' which has become more prevalent in recent years.

You would vote for the party or Charlie Haughey, Bertie Ahern, Liam Lawlor, Beverly Flynn, Ray Burke, Ivor Callely, Frank Dunlop, Eamon DeValera!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is the alternative?  Sinn Fein?  I bet as you are a Mayo blueshirt you don't like them either!

If Fianna Fail make it big in the North, then it will forward an All Ireland agenda by the back door, and people won't give a shit about Ray Burke or Ivor feckin Callelly.

Quote from: Feckitt on November 27, 2009, 01:25:12 PM
What is the alternative?  Sinn Fein?  I bet as you are a Mayo blueshirt you don't like them either!

If Fianna Fail make it big in the North, then it will forward an All Ireland agenda by the back door, and people won't give a shit about Ray Burke or Ivor feckin Callelly.

SDLP, Independents, Alliance

Quote from: Canalman on November 27, 2009, 12:48:40 PM
Wouldn't write FF off just yet. Will (like all Govt incumbents) probably lose next General Election....... but to say they are f...ked is ott.
A new leader and the putting out to pasture of the "old guard" and FF will be back with a vengeance. Still have the loyalty of the small farmer and the urban working classes by and large (though not as much as they had).

FF also have a better calibre of TD which garners them votes despite the party's unpopularity.

Dead right.

Lads, mayogodhelphim is probably licking Enda Kenny's hole right now! ;) Or maybe John O'Mahony.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 27, 2009, 12:39:10 PM

Quote from: Feckitt on November 27, 2009, 12:31:28 PM
Did anyone see Hearts & Minds yesterday.  Martin McAllister is opening the new FF office in Crossmaglen.  It reports that there will be Fianna Fail forums in all 6 northern counties by the end of the year. 

They are getting geared up in Newry & Armagh for the 2011 assembly elections.  I reckon if FF committ to this properly then there is a lot of votes to be taken.

SF said that it will only affect the SDLP.   The SDLP said it will only affect SF.  They are both full of shit!

If the FF'ers do this properly, through nationally known figures such as Dermot Ahern, Eamon O'Cuiv and Rory O'Hanlon, and recruit some good high profile people (including stealing some from SF & SDLP) then they have a real future in the North.

FF are f**ked down south . Why would anyone up North vote for them?

I am not debating this; you have no clue about politics, north or south.

Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 27, 2009, 09:31:35 PM
Lads, mayogodhelphim is probably licking Enda Kenny's hole right now! ;) Or maybe John O'Mahony.

Don't forget Eoin O'Duffy too..... :D

FF are a cancer on Ireland.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 28, 2009, 07:04:38 AM
FF are a cancer on Ireland.

Time to cut them out so.

Has the FF Northern project ground to a halt?

I haven't heard any news on this in ages.

Quote from: Feckitt on May 18, 2010, 02:54:00 PM
Has the FF Northern project ground to a halt?

I haven't heard any news on this in ages.

fairly strong in South Down and parts of Armagh,think they are waiting on the go-ahead from HQ regarding the fighting of council elections next year