http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article2831612.ece
This opinion column panders deeply to the prejudices of the Belfast Telegraph's Unionist readership as the Belfast Telegraph invariably does on all issues( on one alleged incident of sectarian abuse) links us all in with paramilitaries, and laughingly infers that soccer has eradicated sectarianism and that the NI team enjoys increased cross community support. It also ignores the fact that the GAA community from the President downwards has already rallied round the victim.
The Belfast Telegraph also has a serious credibility with the nationalist population given that it was cited in recent times by the Fair Employment Commission for an imbalanced workforce (ie very few taigs) and of course it never features GAA sport as the main story on the back page
Isn't it time all O'Reilly's rags were banned from the press boxes of GAA grounds?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2007, 10:41:25 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article2831612.ece
and laughingly infers that soccer has eradicated sectarianism
Just one example of Tony's twisted logic. What the article does say is......This campaign has had
quite a degree of success
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2007, 10:41:25 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article2831612.ece
Isn't it time all O'Reilly's rags were banned from the press boxes of GAA grounds?
[/b]
yeah, you can just imagine the uproar about the bigoted GAA and the banning of freedom of speech and all that, more fuel to the fire
have to say the article is not over the top,but reports the facts of what happened to one individual.i myself would call myself a republican,coming from bellaghy i have seen quite alot of the troubles and i for one would love to see protestants in our community get involved with our club,indeed in the 50's and 60's we had several players that came from the protestant community but due to the troubles there membership declined but more recently high profile protestants from th town have given us support wheather it be sponsorship or use of there ground it bodes well for the furture so therefore any abuse to a protestant player or supporter can not be tolerated and not just brushed under the carpet,this has to be dealt with and our ignorant people educated that these people have alot to offer our organisation and developement of our games.
Those of us big enough and ugly enough to admit to give and take criticism are do something about it owe Mr Fearon a debt of service for bringing articles like thos to the attention of ostrich/in denial types like Mr Fearon himself and other mono-culturalists.
I disagree. I feel that the statement inferring that Darren Graham could well have shunned the nationalist community in Fermanagh owing to having relatives killed by the IRA is outrageous in that it makes no distinction between the IRA and ordinary nationalists. As someone said previously sectarianism is endemic in the 6 counties (ffs being a bigot is the main prerequisite for membership of our First Minister's political party) but does one isolated incident of sectarianism justify an opinion column given that the rampant sectarianism in local soccer which has been ongoing for decades and has caused teams (never mind individual players) to quit, never attracted a similar opinion column from the same source. Also the last paragraph fails to acknowledge the fact that the GAA, from the President down, has already rallied round the player, now compare and contrast that with the ack of support given to Neil Lennon from the IFA and his manager, when he was on the receiving end of sectarian abuse from his own team's supporters, yet the Telegraph never printed a similar opinion column criticising them.
Also the Telegraph has a seriously imbalanced workforce and never features GAA stories as the lead on its backpage, despite of the fact that it is Ulster's most popular sport. The unionist bias of the paper is blatant and this isolated incident is just being used as an excuse to gratuitously attack the GAA
It's a fair enough article.
The GAA is the biggest sporting organization in the land.
Who can doubt that this whole episode and publicity will only be for the better.
I agree with Tony, that the "Tele" is a unionist paper (rag-if you want) and because of this I never buy it, therefore I am saved from reading the tripe that they print.
Actually the Belfast Telegraph provides very comprehensive coverage of gaelic games (so does Sunday Life, 4-6 pages of it during the season), it's often on the back-page, and at some risk of alienating the majority population in the North, though presumably they just turn the other cheek. The GAA is not like other 'sports', as members and supporters often like to remind people.
This Darren Graham business is a wake-up call, soccer in the North realised it had a big problem and is tackling it, GAA in the SOuth seems to have been oblivious to it or unable or unwilling to tackle the elephant in the room, while the Northern GAA in general seems to have been happy to thrive on its assocaitions with the 'national liberation struggle' and its exclusivist outlook and exclusion of the Northern Protestant-British community. Graham has caused embarrassment, but maybe done a major service to those who would like this to just be a uniquely Irish, brilliant range of sports, but without the whiff of sulphur, in the longer-term. If its forgotten about, the GAA will remain as attractive and relevant to Northern Protestants as the Orange Order is to Northern Catholics.
Tony, there has been copious discussions of sectarianism in football in NI across the media - including the belly tele.
Lets not forget its even printed some of your drivel, so i guess we can never accuse it of taste
:o
Drumanee you wrote: ..."more recently high profile protestants from th town have given us support wheather it be sponsorship or use of there ground".
Man are you trying to tell me Black Bob O (if he's still alive) is now a Tone's supporter? Jayzus I mine the craic when he would come out with the lambeg and march around the garden within a few dozen yards from the main stand at your pitch.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 04, 2007, 10:41:25 AM
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/opinion/article2831612.ece
This opinion column panders deeply to the prejudices of the Belfast Telegraph's Unionist readership as the Belfast Telegraph invariably does on all issues( on one alleged incident of sectarian abuse) links us all in with paramilitaries, and laughingly infers that soccer has eradicated sectarianism and that the NI team enjoys increased cross community support. It also ignores the fact that the GAA community from the President downwards has already rallied round the victim.
The Belfast Telegraph also has a serious credibility with the nationalist population given that it was cited in recent times by the Fair Employment Commission for an imbalanced workforce (ie very few taigs) and of course it never features GAA sport as the main story on the back page
Isn't it time all O'Reilly's rags were banned from the press boxes of GAA grounds?
I know one Catholic who works for the Tele and I mentioned the readership demographics - he said that it is split 55% Protestant and 45% Catholic, which surprised me slightly. Going by this and your Unionist readership talk, it would infer there are a lot of Catholic unionists.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on August 04, 2007, 12:15:12 PM
I agree with Tony, that the "Tele" is a unionist paper (rag-if you want) and because of this I never buy it, therefore I am saved from reading the tripe that they print.
Aye, but you expect me to get ye the JobFinder for you!!
I would describe myself as a regular Telegraph reader but if you care to read what I posted you will see I referred to the pandering towards its Unionist readership, the clear inference being that this was done at the expense of its nationalist readership. If the demographics are true then the opinion column is even more shameful. If this opinion column had appeared in the Orangeletter, sorry Newsletter, one could understand it as that paper is more or less the voice of the Orange Order.
Besides that the column is full of fcukwittery logic. On the one hand it claims GAA has never had a problem with sectarianism due to the relatively small number of protestants involved (that comment alone is outrageous as it infers that if protestants did become involved en masse they would be subject to sectarian abuse which is an insult to all gaels), then says the GAA should do more to attract protestants, which would increase sectarianism according to the writer's own logic. ???
Quote from: Aerlik on August 04, 2007, 04:10:08 PM
:o
Drumanee you wrote: ..."more recently high profile protestants from th town have given us support wheather it be sponsorship or use of there ground".
Man are you trying to tell me Black Bob O (if he's still alive) is now a Tone's supporter? Jayzus I mine the craic when he would come out with the lambeg and march around the garden within a few dozen yards from the main stand at your pitch.
naw def not bob,he's stil banging away at his drum when theres a match on,i was refering to a well know shop keeper.cant see the day when bobs walks in to our ground
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2007, 10:11:35 AM
I would describe myself as a regular Telegraph reader but if you care to read what I posted you will see I referred to the pandering towards its Unionist readership, the clear inference being that this was done at the expense of its nationalist readership.
Why do you think it has a nationalist readership if it has a serious credibility problem with that populace as you inferred in the initial post?
My own thought is that the Tele has been quite smart in bringing more moderate nationalist content and input into the paper in the last while, without alienating its long time Unionist core followers.
Quotethat comment alone is outrageous as it infers that if protestants did become involved en masse they would be subject to sectarian abuse which is an insult to all gaels
Of course there would be more abuse tony, it stands to reason.
Not all "gaels" would be involved or accept it, not all protestants would recieve it, but it would surely happen.
its NI for goodness sake.
I am 100% certain they would be no escalation in sectarian abuse if more protestants were involved and to suggest such a thing is an insult to the vast vast majority of gaels.
As far as the Telegraph becoming more appealing to catholic/ nationalists you're having a laugh. GAA to my knowledge has featured once on the back page and the paper has no cutting edge nationalist commentator etc and its viewpoint is invariably unionist, it never criticised the DUP the way it did Sinn Fein, nor the Orange Order and always brushed sectarianism in local soccer under the carpet.
It seems that some guys where happy to abuse the one guy available to them - you think these guys wouldnt abuse another protestant if there was one availbale, or 5 or 10.
I dont see how you can be 100% certain there would be no escalation - previously you had said you where 100% certain that no protestant in the gaa would have any problems.
There are bigots in every facet of life in NI - the GAA is no different
Quote from: T Fearon on August 06, 2007, 04:52:57 PM
As far as the Telegraph becoming more appealing to catholic/ nationalists you're having a laugh. GAA to my knowledge has featured once on the back page and the paper has no cutting edge nationalist commentator etc and its viewpoint is invariably unionist, it never criticised the DUP the way it did Sinn Fein, nor the Orange Order and always brushed sectarianism in local soccer under the carpet.
Why do you read it?
Exactly. I've been telling Tony that for years. It's like Sammy Wilson complaining about an article in An Phoblacht.
Quote from: Take Your Points on August 04, 2007, 11:21:09 AM
Is it not time to admit that sectariansim and bigotry is endemic in N.Ireland society and even with the best will in the world it will remain because of our political institutions are based on it.
I look forward to the day when we have a "normal" society but I don't believe I will see, perhaps my children will.
I couldn't agree more with this point. NI is the only place on the planet where sectarianism is given political acceptance. How would anyone seriously expect NI society to be any different?
To be honest I wouldn't see much wrong with that article. The main point that the GAA must seize on this incident is correct. As I have said in other threads this is for two reasons:
1) Darren Graham and his like are the key to making the GAA welcoming to Northern Ireland Protestants. He and others like him, who have an genuine interest in the game should be made welcome. Barriers such as this kind of sledging (or others) he may point out have to be removed. He and not the internet warriors picking through the GAA rule book are the key to a more inclusive GAA.
2) It will be one less thing for the knockers to knock us on.
Of course incidents of this nature go on in other sports (possibly more unchecked than some would have you believed) but that's their business. This is a chance for the GAA to be proactive (and seen to be proactive) and the chance must be seized.
Tony, you are being hyper-sensitive.
/Jim.
Jim
I am not being hypersensitive at all. This rag styles itself as the "National Newspaper of N Ireland" implying that it serves both communities but I have yet to see an article criticising sectarianism in local soccer, Earlier this year the Glentoran Assistant Manager offered sectarian abuse to Pat Fenlon during a sectarian game between Derry and Glentoran. This issue wasn't even mentioned in this rag far less the subject of an Opinion Column. I am angered also that the IFA's laughable FFA campaign is held up as some sort of template for the GAA to adopt. Also you never ever see the GAA featuring as the lead subject on the sports back page, not even the AI Final between Armagh and Tyrone yet the most ibscure local sports are featured
Oh and sectarianism is indeed inevitable in the six counties due simply to the fact that the artificial statelet was set up on the basis of a crude sectarian headcount, and from that foundation, the rest as they say is our history
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Jim
I am not being hypersensitive at all. This rag styles itself as the "National Newspaper of N Ireland" implying that it serves both communities but I have yet to see an article criticising sectarianism in local soccer,
You obviously don't read it very often then.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Earlier this year the Glentoran Assistant Manager offered sectarian abuse to Pat Fenlon during a sectarian game between Derry and Glentoran. This issue wasn't even mentioned in this rag far less the subject of an Opinion Column.
As you were obviously there and know what was said, would you like to tell the rest of us?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
I am angered also that the IFA's laughable FFA campaign is held up as some sort of template for the GAA to adopt.
So you don't think taking highly successful 'best practice' initiatives is a good idea. Says more about you than it does about the Tele.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Also you never ever see the GAA featuring as the lead subject on the sports back page, not even the AI Final between Armagh and Tyrone yet the most ibscure local sports are featured
Again are you taking the piss, GAA gets by far the lions share of sports coverage in the Tele
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Oh and sectarianism is indeed inevitable in the six counties due simply to the fact that the artificial statelet was set up on the basis of a crude sectarian headcount, and from that foundation, the rest as they say is our history
Truely truely pathetic even for you.
Go on Tony, you know you want to:
08459555678
or
text
81771
So Sammy, you think that a state founded solely on the basis of a sectarian headcount is going to be anything other than sectarian in nature, particularly since gthe tribe that win's the sectarian headcount is going to pull out all the stops to secure its advantage and the losing tribe inevitably feels hard done by and permanently aggrieved?
Its a no brainer as far as I am concerned.
As for Darren Graham maybe he should ask Anton Rogan and Neil Lennon and countless others how to develop a thick skin in the face of sectarian abuse...especially when it comes from one's own supporters, and also Pat Fenlon should follow Darren's example and come clean revealing exactly what the Glentoran Assistant Manager said to him at the Brandywell during the course of the game.
As for the IFA's FFA campaign and its alleged sucess, how many additional catholics now go to Windsor Park as a result?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Jim
I am not being hypersensitive at all. This rag styles itself as the "National Newspaper of N Ireland" implying that it serves both communities but I have yet to see an article criticising sectarianism in local soccer, Earlier this year the Glentoran Assistant Manager offered sectarian abuse to Pat Fenlon during a sectarian game between Derry and Glentoran. This issue wasn't even mentioned in this rag far less the subject of an Opinion Column. I am angered also that the IFA's laughable FFA campaign is held up as some sort of template for the GAA to adopt. Also you never ever see the GAA featuring as the lead subject on the sports back page, not even the AI Final between Armagh and Tyrone yet the most ibscure local sports are featured
Oh and sectarianism is indeed inevitable in the six counties due simply to the fact that the artificial statelet was set up on the basis of a crude sectarian headcount, and from that foundation, the rest as they say is our history
Tony,
I am not familiar with general trends in the specific paper. The article itself, standing alone, seems reasonable. As a GAA member I want the issue tackled so I agree with the sentiments of the article.
As for other sports, I agree there maybe issues of an equal (or greater) magnitude going on. Certainly when Linfield came to Dublin last year, the phrase "Fenian Baxtard" was clearly audible. Of course this was because the neanderthals were trying to get within earshot of the keeper and there was a boom mike behind his goal. I'd presume some players as well as supporters indulge in such behaviour.
That said, what other sports do is of indifference to me, the GAA should take a lead as the article states.
/Jim.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
As for the IFA's FFA campaign and its alleged sucess, how many additional catholics now go to Windsor Park as a result?
Last time they flew the sectarian 'headcountometer' over the stadium at a match, I think they arrived at a figure of 403.5 - some bugger in a mixed marriage making the 0.5.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
So Sammy, you think that a state founded solely on the basis of a sectarian headcount is going to be anything other than sectarian in nature, particularly since gthe tribe that win's the sectarian headcount is going to pull out all the stops to secure its advantage and the losing tribe inevitably feels hard done by and permanently aggrieved?
More nonsensical double speak.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
Its a no brainer as far as I am concerned.
Well you certainly didn't use your brian, that's for sure.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
As for Darren Graham maybe he should ask Anton Rogan and Neil Lennon and countless others how to develop a thick skin in the face of sectarian abuse...especially when it comes from one's own supporters,
Can you tell us what sectarian abuse you think either Rogan or Lennon received AT NI MATCHES and when this occurred?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
o Pat Fenlon should follow Darren's example and come clean revealing exactly what the Glentoran Assistant Manager said to him at the Brandywell during the course of the game.
As per my previous post, you obviously know so why don't you tell the rest of us?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
As for the IFA's FFA campaign and its alleged sucess, how many additional catholics now go to Windsor Park as a result?
1) FFA has nothing to do with attracting anybody (Protestant, Catholic or other) to matches, as they are already completely sold out. The campaign is to remove sectarianism and politicsfrom NI football and this has been hugely successful (as seen by the commenttfrom FIFA/UEFA, SARI, Brian Kerr etc)
2) There is no headcount on the way into matches so I've no idea how many Catholics attend and whether this has increased. It would be a bit like asking how many Catholics where at the Snow Patrol concert, and would get the same answer, no idea.
QuoteWell you certainly didn't use your brian, that's for sure.
Who's Brian?
Quote from: haveaharp on August 07, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
QuoteWell you certainly didn't use your brian, that's for sure.
Who's Brian?
Tony's mate. ;)
Quote from: SammyG on August 07, 2007, 01:48:11 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on August 07, 2007, 01:46:17 PM
QuoteWell you certainly didn't use your brian, that's for sure.
Who's Brian?
Tony's mate. ;)
He has a mate?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
As for the IFA's FFA campaign and its alleged sucess, how many additional catholics now go to Windsor Park as a result?
FFA is not about attracting "additional Catholics" to WP; rather, it is about changing the atmosphere and environment surrounding football in NI, so that
anyone who is genuinely interested in following the game may do so, irrespective of race, religion, colour, gender, disability etc.
As such, it has been widely recognised by a wide number of neutral, authoritative bodies - in this case Sport Against Racism Ireland, for example - as having achieved considerable success (even if the job is by no means complete).
In fact, you are just about the only person I've ever seen who refuses even to make grudging acknowledgement of the situation. I can only assume that this is because for you to do so would chip away at the very foundations of the wild and malicious bigotry which appears to sustain you and your sad, little fantasy world.
Anyhow, to answer your question directly, I have no idea how many RC's have been attracted to WP by FFA. However, I assume that those schoolchildren at Catholic schools which receive match tickets from FFA (as well as coaching, equipment etc) are RC.
As are the individuals I have met who have revealed themselves to be so, as is at least a section of the increase in crowds which we have attracted since the bad old days before FFA.
As are the people increasingly seen in NI tops in mixed, or even predominantly RC areas.
But in any case, even if it only attracted one more RC, it would still be the right thing to do; if nothing else, that would be one more extra supporter from "across the divide" than GAA seems to be attracting these days... ::)
Shows the charade up for what it is...a charade.
Now Sammy even ridiculously attempts to deny Anton Rogan or Neil Lennon (to name but two) were ever victims of sectarian abuse. ???
FFA has no credibility among the people who matter, ie catholic/nationalists, and the North of Ireland support remains mono cultural. You only have to read the thread here on Windsor Park and observe how many people woild feel threatened by going to the ground.
Kenneth Mc Callister knows the score! ;)
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 03:41:37 PM
FFA has no credibility among the people who matter, ie catholic/nationalists, and the North of Ireland support remains mono cultural. You only have to read the thread here on Windsor Park and observe how many people woild feel threatened by going to the ground.
Odd leap of 'logic', that.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 03:41:37 PM
FFA has no credibility among the people who matter, ie catholic/nationalists
Yay! That's the open minded, forward thinking way ahead for the integration of different cultures in the North and South.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 03:41:37 PMNow Sammy even ridiculously attempts to deny Anton Rogan or Neil Lennon (to name but two) were ever victims of sectarian abuse. ???
When did this happen?
Er, late 80s/ early 90s, every time Rogan played (funnily enough this didn't trigger a football for all campaign, but maybe corporate sponsorship wasn't as important as it is today), as for Lennon there was loads of sectarian abuse (which even shocked Ole Gunnar Solksjaer during a game with Norway) culminating in the death threat which prematurely ended his career, after which the North of Ireland manager said Rangers players get worse in Dublin ???
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 04:17:21 PM
Er, late 80s/ early 90s, every time Rogan played (funnily enough this didn't trigger a football for all campaign, but maybe corporate sponsorship wasn't as important as it is today),
Complete bullshit
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 04:17:21 PM
as for Lennon there was loads of sectarian abuse (which even shocked Ole Gunnar Solksjaer during a game with Norway) culminating in the death threat which prematurely ended his career,
Can you give us some details of this abuse, as you're obviously an expert?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 04:17:21 PM
after which the North of Ireland manager said Rangers players get worse in Dublin ???
???
Apart from that you've totally ignored the question, namely when did I deny anything?
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 03:41:37 PM
You only have to read the thread here on Windsor Park and observe how many people woild feel threatened by going to the ground.
No Tony Sammy has thrown that whole debate into doubt by casting the question as to how many people who voted against his view actually ever went to Windsor.
So if you want that thread to be taken seriously please let everyone who voted that way form a polite queue to show Sammy their ticket stubs :o :o :o
It gets more surreal every day
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2007, 03:29:58 PM
FFA is not about attracting "additional Catholics" to WP; rather, it is about changing the atmosphere and environment surrounding football in NI, so that anyone who is genuinely interested in following the game may do so, irrespective of race, religion, colour, gender, disability etc.
As such, it has been widely recognised by a wide number of neutral, authoritative bodies - in this case Sport Against Racism Ireland, for example - as having achieved considerable success (even if the job is by no means complete).
Firstly I would say that FFA is a commendable program and embarking on it alone is a success. I would point out though that your example is an interesting one because if SARI reports are the barometer of success then the GAA is well up there. Read the Anual Reports about the GAA participation in their programs.
Also on Today FM last week Trevor Ringland listed a number of initiatives that he was involved in with the GAA (some I ashamedly did not even know about).
So once again, while acknowledging the particular issue with the GAA in Northern Ireland, I put forward the motion that the picture is not as terrible as many would purport.
/Jim.
(http://www.theredcard.ie/img/gpa_poster07.jpg)
Quote from: his holiness nb on August 07, 2007, 05:28:58 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 03:41:37 PM
You only have to read the thread here on Windsor Park and observe how many people woild feel threatened by going to the ground.
No Tony Sammy has thrown that whole debate into doubt by casting the question as to how many people who voted against his view actually ever went to Windsor.
So if you want that thread to be taken seriously please let everyone who voted that way form a polite queue to show Sammy their ticket stubs :o :o :o
It gets more surreal every day
Aye you're right that's exactly what I said. ::)
Quote from: SammyG on August 07, 2007, 11:58:26 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 11:25:55 AM
Also you never ever see the GAA featuring as the lead subject on the sports back page, not even the AI Final between Armagh and Tyrone yet the most ibscure local sports are featured
Again are you taking the piss, GAA gets by far the lions share of sports coverage in the Tele
This is simply not true. The Telegraph appears to have one GAA writer and coverage is generally limited to a page or two maximum, and generally 4-5 pages in from the back of the paper.
Quote from: SammyG on August 07, 2007, 01:32:46 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2007, 12:16:26 PM
As for Darren Graham maybe he should ask Anton Rogan and Neil Lennon and countless others how to develop a thick skin in the face of sectarian abuse...especially when it comes from one's own supporters,
Can you tell us what sectarian abuse you think either Rogan or Lennon received AT NI MATCHES and when this occurred?
Well here's two examples - both from the Telegraph archives, kinda ironically:
QuoteThursday, March 01, 2001
SPORTS Minister Michael McGimpsey today promised tough new measures against louts in the football stands after the barracking of Neil Lennon.
The Stormont supremo voiced his disgust at the abuse heaped on the Celtic player, who was booed by a section of the crowd as he played for Northern Ireland against Norway last night.
Lennon was substituted at half-time and later appeared to suggest that he was rethinking his position with the team.
Today, Mr McGimpsey said: "Neil Lennon is a highly talented player with one of the most famous sides in Europe and we should all be able to take pride in him.
"For him to be singled out in that way was absolutely atrocious.
"Clearly there needs to be stronger steps taken to identify people doing this sort of barracking and make sure that they never get back in."
Mr McGimpsey pleaded with Lennon to stick with the side, saying the overwhelming majority of fans backed him. Other fans tried to drown out the minority who jeered Lennon's every touch of the ball. An RUC spokesperson said that there were no arrests at the match.
and
QuoteWhy I didn't let Windsor boo boys upset me
Thursday, March 22, 2001
By Anton Rogan
I REMEMBER my first home game for Northern Ireland as a Celtic player as clear as day.
It was against Poland 13 years ago and unlike Neil's situation there hadn't really been that much pre-match publicity about how the Windsor Park fans would react to me.
To be honest it didn't cross my mind either. I was there to play a football match and do my best for the team. The manager Billy Bingham named me as a substitute.
As you can imagine being a young man I was itching to get on. When I was warming up a few people jeered me but I was too hyped up for the game to care.
Then came the moment for me to come on. It is fair to say I didn't get the warmest of welcomes from some of the Windsor Park crowd. My name was booed when it was announced over the PA system and for a while after that I suffered some abuse.
When I look back now it was sad that people who I was supposed to be playing for were booing me, but at the time it didn't bother me. To be frank, then or now, I wouldn't let it. I'm not trying to come across as a hard man here but I was there to play football. Nothing else mattered.
In any case, soon I had put one of their players up in the air and most of the abuse stopped. After the match there was a bit about it in the newspapers but it wasn't really mentioned by the players or the manager.
I think a few years on some of the boys asked me how I felt about it but it was never a big deal. My father and brother attended the game but like me they just got on with watching the game. After that first game as a Celtic player there was a little hassle for me in Northern Ireland games but nothing serious. In fact, I think I became quite well liked by the Windsor fans because they knew I always gave 100% for Northern Ireland.
I know Neil Lennon does exactly the same and I do feel sorry for what he has had to put up with. It has been far worse and far more high profile than what happened to me.
What I want to say first and foremost about Neil is that as a footballer he is top class and as a person he is gentleman. He is proud to play for Northern Ireland and all Northern Ireland fans should be proud that he plays for them.
I remember when I was nearing the end of my international career he was just starting and you could see then he had passion and wanted to do his best. I'm sure like me when the move to Celtic came up he couldn't turn it down. Think about it, if you have supported a team as a boy, that's who you want to play for be it Liverpool, Manchester United or Rangers.
But just because Neil moved clubs it didn't mean he was going to give less to Northern Ireland and from what I hear he was one of the better players against Norway last month. The abuse he received was terrible and as I've said worse than mine but I also think that before the match and after it the media certainly made the most of it. Obviously Neil is a high profile player and a really famous person back home and without doubt he should not have been subjected to booing from his own fans, but I think some people were waiting for it to happen as well.
Sadly there is hatred in our society and a few people are hellbent on staying in the dark ages. We must go forward and I was pleased to see the IFA bring out their new Code of Conduct for fans ahead of the game on Saturday against the Czechs. They should be congratulated for that.
And I also commend Sammy McIlroy on not letting Neil be interviewed before the game. I don't want this to turn into a circus. I'm sure Neil doesn't either. The boys are over to play a football match and collect a famous win.
From over here in England I'll be keeping a close eye on developments at Windsor and sincerely hope all goes well on and off the pitch.
Good luck to Sammy, good luck to Neil and the rest of the players and last but not least hopefully all the fans will enjoy the day. They can play their part. I remember when Windsor Park was an intimidating place to play - for the opposition. Let's hope it's that way against the Czechs.
Oh, by the way, i don't intent this post to be about point scoring. I think that what has happened to DArren Graham is ridiculous and should be condemned by all. I'm on record on this board saying as much. However your comments, Sammy G, were simply incorrect.
>:(
Sammy G, in the spring of 1986 (pretty sure it was in May), prior to their departure for the World Cup, the 6-Counties team played a challenge against Morocco at Windsor Park. Morocco won 1-0, too I believe. I went to the game with two Protestant colleagues of my sister who, due to work commitments, couldn't make it. Lucky her.
We were standing in the stand just in front of the press boxes.
As soon as Anton Rogan's name was read out a torrent of vitriolic sectarian abuse started and continued throughout the game. Every time he touched the ball, the language from those around me was, to say the least, very frightening. To the point I will never, ever step into that shitehole again. I think it was lucky for me that I was with two Protestants that night. I also remember getting some stares as I didn't participate in the dirge to a foreign monarch either.
So there you have it, Sammy G. It did happen. I was there. And that is, quite simply, the last time I ever lent anything resembling "support" to the 6-Counties team, even though the captain was a townie of mine.
Once again the denial of commonly acknowledged facts. I ask you then how can the so called Football for All initiative be sincere when they are in denial of the very events that allegedly inspired it in the first place?
Rogans piece was very interesting
Quotebut I also think that before the match and after it the media certainly made the most of it.
QuoteAfter that first game as a Celtic player there was a little hassle for me in Northern Ireland games but nothing serious.
QuoteThey can play their part. I remember when Windsor Park was an intimidating place to play - for the opposition. Let's hope it's that way against the Czechs.
Tony -the facts are that abuse happened - it was the catalyst for FFA
its your interpretation and exaggeration of the facts that is the problem, along
with a lot of rhetoric
Quote from: SammyG on August 07, 2007, 06:14:33 PM
No Tony Sammy has thrown that whole debate into doubt by casting the question as to how many people who voted against his view actually ever went to Windsor.
So if you want that thread to be taken seriously please let everyone who voted that way form a polite queue to show Sammy their ticket stubs :o :o :o
It gets more surreal every day
Aye you're right that's exactly what I said. ::)
[/quote]
Its not exaclty what you said as I didnt quote you, now I will if it makes a difference ::)
"How many of those 48 people have ever been to WP (or even know where it is)?"
Another argument, at the stage where there were 7 people voting that way was to point out that out of 600000 nationalists only 7 said they felt intimidated.
Now apart from the stupidity to suggest all 600000 nationalists are members of GAAboard and elligible to vote there, this would surely not be a true figure, surely from the 600000 nationalist to mention to boost your argument you must remove the huge proportion who havent been to Windsor (or even know where it is) :o
Quote from: Aerlik on August 08, 2007, 01:25:53 AM
>:(
Sammy G, in the spring of 1986 (pretty sure it was in May), prior to their departure for the World Cup, the 6-Counties team played a challenge against Morocco at Windsor Park. Morocco won 1-0, too I believe. I went to the game with two Protestant colleagues of my sister who, due to work commitments, couldn't make it. Lucky her.
We were standing in the stand just in front of the press boxes.
As soon as Anton Rogan's name was read out a torrent of vitriolic sectarian abuse started and continued throughout the game. Every time he touched the ball, the language from those around me was, to say the least, very frightening. To the point I will never, ever step into that shitehole again. I think it was lucky for me that I was with two Protestants that night. I also remember getting some stares as I didn't participate in the dirge to a foreign monarch either.
So there you have it, Sammy G. It did happen. I was there. And that is, quite simply, the last time I ever lent anything resembling "support" to the 6-Counties team, even though the captain was a townie of mine.
I thought Rogan didn't make his debut until October 1987? ???
Quote from: his holiness nb on August 08, 2007, 10:05:58 AM
Quote from: SammyG on August 07, 2007, 06:14:33 PM
No Tony Sammy has thrown that whole debate into doubt by casting the question as to how many people who voted against his view actually ever went to Windsor.
So if you want that thread to be taken seriously please let everyone who voted that way form a polite queue to show Sammy their ticket stubs :o :o :o
It gets more surreal every day
Aye you're right that's exactly what I said. ::)
Its not exaclty what you said as I didnt quote you, now I will if it makes a difference ::)
"How many of those 48 people have ever been to WP (or even know where it is)?"
Another argument, at the stage where there were 7 people voting that way was to point out that out of 600000 nationalists only 7 said they felt intimidated.
Now apart from the stupidity to suggest all 600000 nationalists are members of GAAboard and elligible to vote there, this would surely not be a true figure, surely from the 600000 nationalist to mention to boost your argument you must remove the huge proportion who havent been to Windsor (or even know where it is) :o
[/quote]
Excellent piece of selective quoting. If you read the previous posts, you'll see that the 'know where it is' post was in relation to a previous poster who mentioned 'driving past' WP on his way to Uni, even though there aren't any through roads that pass WP.
Quote from: MW on August 08, 2007, 10:31:14 AM
Quote from: Aerlik on August 08, 2007, 01:25:53 AM
>:(
Sammy G, in the spring of 1986 (pretty sure it was in May), prior to their departure for the World Cup, the 6-Counties team played a challenge against Morocco at Windsor Park. Morocco won 1-0, too I believe. I went to the game with two Protestant colleagues of my sister who, due to work commitments, couldn't make it. Lucky her.
We were standing in the stand just in front of the press boxes.
As soon as Anton Rogan's name was read out a torrent of vitriolic sectarian abuse started and continued throughout the game. Every time he touched the ball, the language from those around me was, to say the least, very frightening. To the point I will never, ever step into that shitehole again. I think it was lucky for me that I was with two Protestants that night. I also remember getting some stares as I didn't participate in the dirge to a foreign monarch either.
So there you have it, Sammy G. It did happen. I was there. And that is, quite simply, the last time I ever lent anything resembling "support" to the 6-Counties team, even though the captain was a townie of mine.
I thought Rogan didn't make his debut until October 1987? ???
Correct Oct 87 against Yugoslavia, whereas the Morrocco match was in April 86.
Selective quoting my bollox, you were caught out talking shite :D :D :D :D
Should I post your entire thread every time when quoting you to avoid being "selective" ??
Jesus
Quote from: his holiness nb on August 08, 2007, 10:50:17 AM
Selective quoting my bollox, you were caught out talking shite :D :D :D :D
Should I post your entire thread every time when quoting you to avoid being "selective" ??
Jesus
Somebody (I think it was mooncat) said he drove past WP, I pointed out that he couldn't have. You only post my answer and then use this to say that I said only people who've been to WP, should vote. I think by any stretch that's selective quoting.
Quote from: Aerlik on August 08, 2007, 01:25:53 AM
>:(
Sammy G, in the spring of 1986 (pretty sure it was in May), prior to their departure for the World Cup, the 6-Counties team played a challenge against Morocco at Windsor Park. Morocco won 1-0, too I believe. I went to the game with two Protestant colleagues of my sister who, due to work commitments, couldn't make it. Lucky her.
We were standing in the stand just in front of the press boxes.
As soon as Anton Rogan's name was read out a torrent of vitriolic sectarian abuse started and continued throughout the game. Every time he touched the ball, the language from those around me was, to say the least, very frightening. To the point I will never, ever step into that shitehole again. I think it was lucky for me that I was with two Protestants that night. I also remember getting some stares as I didn't participate in the dirge to a foreign monarch either.
So there you have it, Sammy G. It did happen. I was there. And that is, quite simply, the last time I ever lent anything resembling "support" to the 6-Counties team, even though the captain was a townie of mine.
Interesting memories there, Aerlik - it's always good to hear what happened, from someone who was there. I was particularly impressed by the following:
"pretty sure it was in May" - It was April 1986, actually, but no matter.
"Morocco won 1-0, too I believe" - Actually, NI won 2-1
"We were standing in the stand just in front of the press boxes" - Curious, since the Press Box (singular) at Windsor is right at the very back of the South Stand. All the area in front of it is seating. The standing area of the South Stand is down at the front, some distance away.
"I also remember getting some stares as I didn't participate in the dirge to a foreign monarch either" - Curious that people should single you out, seeing as half the NI team who played that night never used to sing the Anthem, either (you know, Jennings, Donaghy, Ramsey etc). Unless, of course, the foreign monarch you refer to was His Majesty, the late King Hassan II... Were there many of your fellow fans singing the "Hymne Cherifien" that evening?
"As soon as Anton Rogan's name was read out a torrent of vitriolic sectarian abuse started and continued throughout the game. Every time he touched the ball, the language from those around me was, to say the least, very frightening" - Most curious of all, really.
Tell me, did they read out Anton's name specifically so that people could abuse him? I know that sounds strange, but it's the only explanation I can come up with, seeing as Anton didn't actually play that night, even as one of the four permitted substitutes:FRIENDLY INTERNATIONAL
23/04/1986, Belfast, Windsor Park, 12.000
NORTHERN IRELAND 2-1 MOROCCO [HT 1-0]
Scorers: Colin Clarke, Jimmy Quinn
NORTHERN IRELAND:
Pat Jennings [Everton] [116/0]
>46' Jim Platt [Coleraine] [23/0]
Paul Ramsey [Leicester City] [9/0]
Mal Donaghy [Luton Town] [42/0]
John O'Neill [Leicester City] [36/1]
Alan McDonald [Queen's Park Rangers] [5/1]
Ian Stewart [Newcastle United] [26/2]
>55' David Campbell [Nottingham Forest] [1/0]
Norman Whiteside [Manchester United] [26/7]
>55' Billy Hamilton [Oxford United] [38/5]
Bernard McNally [Shrewsbury Town] [1/0]
Colin Clarke [Bournemouth] [3/1]
Sammy McIlroy [c] [Manchester City] [84/5]
Steve Penney [Brighton & Hove Albion] [7/0]
>76' Jimmy Quinn [Blackburn Rovers] [11/3]
[COACH: Billy Bingham]
Referee: Cooper (Wales)
Anyhow, your memory is no doubt better than that of, say, Anton Rogan, who somehow or other came up with this piece of nonsense a wee while back:
"After that first game as a Celtic player there was a little hassle for me in Northern Ireland games but nothing serious. In fact, I think I became quite well liked by the Windsor fans because they knew I always gave 100% for Northern Ireland"(Belfast Telegraph, 22/03/01)
By the way, Anton's first game for NI was in October 1987, 18 months after the abuse you recall his having received at Windsor. In Sarajevo. He didn't make his home debut until March 1988, almost 2 years after you resolved never to set foot in Windsor Park again. In that game, a 1-1 draw with Poland, he came on as a substitute for the last 30 minutes, which presumably was when some of the crowd did, indeed, boo him. All 4,903 of them. Any idea whether they also booed the NI keeper that night? After all, Allan McKnight was also a Celtic player at the time, and they had the full 90 minutes to vent their spleen at him...
P.S. You state that the NI captain that night was a "townie" of yours. During Anton's nine home caps from 1987-1992, NI only had four captains - Norman Whiteside, John McClelland, Mal Donaghy and Alan McDonald. All are from Belfast...
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 08, 2007, 11:11:45 AM
"pretty sure it was in May" - It was April 1986, actually, but no matter.
"Morocco won 1-0, too I believe" - Actually, NI won 2-1
One more point...clearly Anton Rogan didn't play in that match (or make his debut for NI till over a year later), but anyway at that point in time he was a
Distillery player - according to soccerbase.com he signed for Celtic on 9 May 1986...
The point is that Anton Rogan was on the receiving end of shameful sectarian abuse whilst playing for N.Ireland at Windsor Park not the semantics of when and who he was playing against
Anton himself didnt mention sectarian abuse - he said there was some booing, it died away and the NI fans liked him. what happened him was a disgrace anyway.
Interesting post from aerlik however...
Quote from: T Fearon on August 08, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
The point is that Anton Rogan was on the receiving end of shameful sectarian abuse whilst playing for N.Ireland at Windsor Park not the semantics of when and who he was playing against
It is discouraging though to find someone state in bold
'I was there. It did happen', only to find that it was impossible, and therefore he's talking blatant rubbish.
However, it is not pleasant to see that Rogan was booed at all for his Celtic connection, in the same manner that Lennon was.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 08, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
The point is that Anton Rogan was on the receiving end of shameful sectarian abuse whilst playing for N.Ireland at Windsor Park not the semantics of when and who he was playing against
That may indeed be the point but another pertinent point is that this Aerlik character made up a ball of shíte as "evidence". Generally, one will doubt the veracity of something when it is backed up by lies.
/Jim.
Quote from: T Fearon on August 08, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
The point is that Anton Rogan was on the receiving end of shameful sectarian abuse whilst playing for N.Ireland at Windsor Park not the semantics of when and who he was playing against
My point was that Aerlik described in graphic detail a sequence of events which quite simply didn't happen, despite his asserting unequivocally "It did happen. I was there."
He got the date wrong.
He got the score wrong.
He got his location wrong.
Above all, he got his main point totally wrong, since Anton Rogan didn't actually make his home debut until two years after Aerlik set foot in Windsor for the last time.
So I assume what Aerlik really meant was "It did happen. Or maybe it didn't. Either way, I was there. Or maybe I wasn't. Anyhow, Anton Rogan most definitely was there. Except he wasn't."
As for Rogan's NI career generally, he did indeed receive abuse on account of his being a Celtic player and that is deplorable. However, he also received a standing ovation when substituted in the 84th minute of the victory over Uruguay in 1990, in recognition of what was his finest display in an NI shirt.
Either way, you are referring to events which occurred twenty-odd years ago. A great deal has changed since then - even if your bigoted thinking is still the same.
Presumably it is this passage of time which allows Rogan himself to offer this perspective:
"After that first game as a Celtic player there was a little hassle for me in Northern Ireland games but nothing serious.
In fact, I think I became quite well liked by the Windsor fans because they knew I always gave 100% for Northern Ireland"
(Belfast Telegraph, 22/03/01)
Quote from: nifan on August 08, 2007, 10:03:25 AM
Tony -the facts are that abuse happened - it was the catalyst for FFA
its your interpretation and exaggeration of the facts that is the problem, along
with a lot of rhetoric
I'm curious if you think the following is exaggerated.
Context is 99% imo with this Lennon incident.
Accounts of Lennon (provence wide) RIP Graffiti before the Norway game.
Big publicity of the condemnation of the hate campaign against Lennon. Lennon was then coming to town to play against Norway.
McIlroy before the Norway game on the hate campaign
"We do not want anything like that."The Windsor Park crowd have been magnificent since I took over and I want to keep that going."
Despite all the hate campaign plus the RIP graffiti Lennon turned out for NI.
What I heard over the TV mics on satellite, the loud booing directed at Lennon was fierce and sustained, it didn't let up or diminish throughout the half. Over the TV mics I didn't hear any cheering, if there was any it was drowned out.
The whole incident left me sick and I couldn't care less about the NI team.
After the game I was stunned to read McIlroy "I've heard worse, and there were cheers and boos,".
I know what happened in the next game after with NI fans cheering Lennon's every touch, I know what Lennon is reported to have said positively in the years after.
MS - it was 150-200 people at most.
And I speak as someone who stood selling our fanzine at the next match with two photos of Lennon on the front cover, one with him in his Celtic shirt with the legend "Neil Lennon (Northern Ireland)" and the other vice versa and wrote an article inside striendtly condemning those responsible and calling for action to be taken against them.
lennon himself reported that he saw people arguing with those booing during the game.
There where certainly many cheering, i was amongst them. I was also int he stadium earlier when the boys came out for warm up and those there applauded lennon, who took the time to run round the stands clapping the fans there back.
Dont get me wrong, I was as depressed as anyone that night, i was disgusted at those who booed. The weather was filthy, our performance was understandably awful (ironicly bar lennon) and i went home after the game soaking and went and watched the thing again which only annoyed me more. The booing did seem louder on tv, i feel due to the position of the mics in windsor which where generally behind the goal at the kop.
The czech game was a fantastic atmosphere - those hangers on who had only come to boo lennon had fucked off again sharpish. Keith Gillespie put in one of the finest displays ive seen from a NI player and was unlucky to be on the losing side that day.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 08, 2007, 11:47:21 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 08, 2007, 11:33:42 AM
The point is that Anton Rogan was on the receiving end of shameful sectarian abuse whilst playing for N.Ireland at Windsor Park not the semantics of when and who he was playing against
That may indeed be the point but another pertinent point is that this Aerlik character made up a ball of shíte as "evidence". Generally, one will doubt the veracity of something when it is backed up by lies.
/Jim.
Aerlik's claims were impressive in the fact that he managed to get just about everything wrong. He managed to pick an actual match to base his claims on (the NI v Morocco warm up game for Mexico 86), but got the date wrong (we'll let him away with this, he was only a month out), the scoreline wrong, the winning team wrong, and brilliantly managed to pick a match Anton Rogan didn't even play in, given that he was over a year away from his international debut and didn't play a home game for NI until nearly 2 years later. And to cap it all off Rogan hadn't even signed for Celtic at this point - he was still plying his trade in the Irish League for Distillery.
But just imagine Aerlink had been a bit smarter, and actually picked the match on which Rogan made his home debut (at which he was booed by a section of the crowd) - I would suggest most readers would have accpeted it as 'fact', and labelled anyone who even dared to question its veracity as "bigots", "in denial", "spin merchants". That's the problem with claims made on an internet forum - if the person making the claim is sensible enough to check the basic facts he can say whatever he wants and his intended audience will believe him. And to him it's only a bonus that those who actually were there deny his claims - because then his intended audience's knee-jerk reaction is to dismiss them as spin merchants/bigots/etc attempting a cover-up.
Those that booed Lennon were nothing but scum, the true NI fans showed their support for Neil.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1240496.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1240496.stm)
Neil Lennon paid tribute to the Northern Ireland fans after he received nothing but cheers from the supporters in Saturday's World Cup qualifier against the Czech Republic.
However, the Celtic midfielder was "gutted" by Northern Ireland's 1-0 defeat after what he described as a "tremendous performance".
"I'm really sorry for the lads because the efforts they put in were magnificent.
"But the support out there today from the fans was brilliant.
"That is what Northern Ireland football should be all about.
"The atmosphere today was as good as it's ever been since I've been involved with Northern Ireland," added Lennon.
The home fans sang `There's only one Neil Lennon' at the end and manager Sammy McIlroy was delighted at the response of the 10,000 crowd.
Keith Gillespie was magnificent and the fans were absolutely magnificent
Sammy McIlroy
"The crowd were 100% behind every player, Neil Lennon included," said McIlroy.
McIlroy was "so proud" of his players.
"When we have one of the best teams in the world, kicking the ball into the stand and struggling to contain us, I can only praise my lads.
"Keith Gillespie was magnificent and the fans were absolutely magnificent.
"This is the kind of support we want because it gives the lads a lift," added McIlroy.
The manager admitted that qualification is now a huge mountain for his team to climb after their second defeat in four qualifiers.
"The result is a blow but we knew that we were in a tough group.
"I can ask for no more from the players. If we keep on playing like that, we will improve," said McIlroy.
(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/6125/lennon1yn4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/8894/lennon3pr0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/9681/post121078688363sh6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
For those that didn't hear about the saga...
That last photo was cropped by a Scottish newspaper to take out the banner of support for Neil Lennon, and used for an article about abuse Lennon had faced, with the caption 'Hate Mob'. I believe the newpaper had to pay damages to some of those pictured.
One of the worst cases of twisting by the media I've ever ever seen.