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Brennan enters hurling debate

GAA President Nickey Brennan has entered the debate over the one-sided nature of the All-Ireland Hurling Championship.

There has been much discussion on the current standard of hurling, with the predictable Leinster Championship coming in for the most scrutiny.

Brennan revealed that he is looking at ways in which things could be inproved and suggests that Antrim and Galway could enter the Leinster Championship, with the Munster Championship being retained.

The GAA President also claimed that an open Championship draw is an option in order to inject some life into top-flight hurling.

What do you think?

Any proposal that involves the end of the Munster Championship will be opposed in MUnster and therefore is a non runner. The Ulster Championship is dead. A few years ago it was competitive but no longer. Down & Armagh should get enough hurling in the Chrity Ring and let Antrim enter Leinster. Galway should be forced into Leinster for the good of the game, whether they like it or not.
I voted option 2 and the sooner the better IMO.

Has to be option 2. I'd be interested to hear a Galway view though.

Open draw, Two groups of 6 top 2 in each into the All Ireland semi finals. Munster has two teams head and shoulders above the rest with others slipping further back.

Why is brennan saying this now!!! They made changes for next year that were just faffing about!! I was hoping for something like this back then! 

::) ??? ::)

No point in talking about an open draw as Munster will never be voted out. And I'd agree with that. The Munster hurling final is a do not miss occasion forme every year.

A Connacht-Leinster-Ulster championship is the way forward in my view. In the mid to long term it has the potential to be as competitive as the Munster championship at all age groups. In fact when Wexford and Offaly sort themselves out, with an improving Dublin and Antrim there could be fireworks. I honestly think it has the potential to be as exciting as the Munster championship currently is. Someone on another site called it the CUL Championship. [Connacht Ulster Leinster]. That'll do for now. Mandate Galway in, invite antrim [i think they're on for it] Both counties are isolated and the current system does nothing for them.

Won't happen like most things in the GAA the no camp make them self most strongly heard

Quote from: Guillem2 on July 05, 2007, 08:20:27 AM
Has to be option 2. I'd be interested to hear a Galway view though.

I would be 100% behind Galway playing in Leinster and to be honest I think the vast majority of supporters in this county are also.  The current format is just not working and as far as I'm concerned there are two options available to the power that be;

1 CUL + Munster Championship
2 An open draw.........

Munster seems pretty competitive at the moment so option 2 will not get any support down south at the moment, therefore option 1 needs to happen asap. 

Exactly. I'd love to see it in place for next year!  :o

How about an Option 3;

The Offaly, Wexford and Laois County Boards set themselves the target of landing an All Ireland Minor title by 2011/12.

If one is to study the quasi-revival in the fortunes of Dublin hurling at the moment, the key to it seems to be a huge emphasis placed on development and performance at Juvenile and Colleges grades.

Surely an open draw is the solution - ok the muster championship can be very good and obviously a munster medal means alot to any players. But you have to look at the bigger picture - is hurling is general going anywhere if the current format persists? And throwing Galway and Antrim into Leinster isnt really going to help the likes of wexford and offally all that much.

Time for the GAA to show a little bit of innovation and obviously be brave enough to scrap the current format and at least try something different. Not sure Brennan has the courage..................time will tell

Moving Antrim & Galway into Leinster isn't radical at all and has been suggested now for a number of years. It could be done for next year without to much disruption to the fixtures calendar. If Galway were in any way interested it would happen. I don't understand why they're not intertested in a couple of good qualility competitive matches before the round robin or even a Leinster title?

Quote from: heineken_on_tap on July 05, 2007, 01:12:03 PM
Surely an open draw is the solution - ok the muster championship can be very good and obviously a munster medal means alot to any players. But you have to look at the bigger picture - is hurling is general going anywhere if the current format persists? And throwing Galway and Antrim into Leinster isnt really going to help the likes of wexford and offally all that much.

Time for the GAA to show a little bit of innovation and obviously be brave enough to scrap the current format and at least try something different. Not sure Brennan has the courage..................time will tell

Donmt agree that the open draw is the solution necessarily and it'll will never garner enough support to get passed so it's pointless talking about it.

Quote from: GalteeMountainBoy on July 05, 2007, 12:30:14 PM
How about an Option 3;

The Offaly, Wexford and Laois County Boards set themselves the target of landing an All Ireland Minor title by 2011/12.

If one is to study the quasi-revival in the fortunes of Dublin hurling at the moment, the key to it seems to be a huge emphasis placed on development and performance at Juvenile and Colleges grades.

A "quasi revival" is a bit strong. We havent managed to beat Wexford or Offaly in championship yet, never mind one of the decent teams. We're hopeful and positive, but its a long road from a bit of underage success to senior success.

Donmt agree that the open draw is the solution necessarily and it'll will never garner enough support to get passed so it's pointless talking about it.
[/quote]

Sure years ago people said the GAAwould never open up croke park - it couldnt be done not in a million years and it was pointless talking about it. untill a few people with foresight came along and said lets put this on the agenda...........ok an open draw may not work out but why not try it for 3 years or so. If its not working then revert to the way it was. Surely it is worth a try

I'd say go for the two championship system for a couple of years, i just cant see the point in getting rid of the munster championship. With a lot of work in at underage in Offaly, Antrim, Laois, Wexford, Galway and Dublin then the rest of ireland championship coud be just as entertaining. Why not try that for a few years, thus keeping the munster championship. If it's not working 5 years down the line then try an open draw.

Quote from: tayto on July 05, 2007, 04:17:41 PM
I'd say go for the two championship system for a couple of years, i just cant see the point in getting rid of the munster championship. With a lot of work in at underage in Offaly, Antrim, Laois, Wexford, Galway and Dublin then the rest of ireland championship coud be just as entertaining. Why not try that for a few years, thus keeping the munster championship. If it's not working 5 years down the line then try an open draw.

I agree as i've said in the other thread is better for Hurling in general to have Galway and Antrim in and its better for Galway and Antrim to be in. Its win-win really

My solution would be the following:
Group A (Run by Munster Council)
Cork
Tipp
Limerick
Clare
Waterford
(Antrim or Galway)

Group B (run by Leinster Council)
Kilkenny
Wexford
Offaly
Dublin
Laois
(Galway or Antrim)

Groups play out. Top two Munster teams in Group A play in the Munster final. Top two Leinster teams in Group B play in the Leinster final. Then the top two teams in group A & B cross over to play AI semis. Then all are happy. We just need to get Antrim & Galway to agree (but Galway wont).

QuoteSure years ago people said the GAAwould never open up croke park - it couldnt be done not in a million years and it was pointless talking about it. untill a few people with foresight came along and said lets put this on the agenda

AAAAAAaaaaaaaarrrrrrrgggggghhhhh!

Blood boiling!

 :D :D :D

Brennan wants open draw for hurling

Ian O'Riordan Reports

GAA president Nickey Brennan has advocated an open draw in the All-Ireland hurling championship, unless there is at least some restructuring of the provincial format.

It was Brennan's first response to Sunday's brutally predictable Leinster final, where his native Kilkenny proved emphatic winners over Wexford.

"This has become an annual debate now," said Brennan, "and that's the frustrating part, that we can't settle on a structure. But there are two options left for the GAA now. One is a Munster championship and what we'll loosely call a Leinster championship, that includes Galway and Antrim.

"If that option is still not acceptable then it's the open draw. I just don't know if the appetite is there for that just yet, but it's still on the agenda. In fairness, there's not a strong argument for getting rid of the Munster championship, I recognise that.

"But I know the Kilkenny County Board have intimated that they realise the problem that's there, and they're not actually looking to retain the Leinster championship at all. They've been extremely open on this, and prepared to enter into any other arrangement that will better hurling."

While Brennan highlighted further faults in the current format, such as the current qualifier series, he also warned against an overreaction to the general state of hurling, citing a largely competitive championship to date: "At the moment we're going through a qualifier system that involves three matches, and some teams losing all three. I don't think that's improving the situation either, and using it's up valuable club time.

"But there's a danger here as well that people are getting emotional about one particular game. Yes, it was a disappointing game, and an extremely poor performance from Wexford. Yet, we've had a great championship so far, not just in Munster, but the two Leinster semi-finals involving Offaly and Kilkenny and Dublin and Wexford were entertaining games. We can also expect some very good games in the quarter-finals.

"I think it is disappointing the way standards have changed in Leinster. Kilkenny are continuing to push ahead, but have dominated underage hurling for so long that what's happening now was an inevitable consequence.

"But Dublin are moving in the right direction, with players opting for hurling ahead of football. They are prepared to do the work and have started to reap the rewards.

"And there are genuine efforts and improvements taking place in the other counties. I met George O'Connor this morning and he is extremely enthusiastic the way things are working out at his level in Wexford, and that the underage players he's dealing with will be the future of Wexford hurling.

"The issue now is that these developments are still off at delivering at senior level, and the question (is) can we afford to have such a lopsided Leinster championship in the meantime. And the answer is probably not. No disrespect to the other teams, but we can't see anyone touching Kilkenny for the foreseeable future."

From his own previous involvement with the GAA's Hurling Development Committee (HDC) Brennan is acutely aware of the difficulties in introducing sweeping changes to the championship format, let alone the relatively minor adjustment of bringing Galway and Antrim into Leinster competitions. It was in fact Brennan who extended the formal invitation to Galway to join Leinster four years ago, which, to his regret, wasn't thoroughly discussed.

"I sent a detailed document to Galway, giving them a major part in all Leinster hurling activities, and that never got to the clubs. So the clubs didn't turn it down; they never got an opportunity to discuss it. That's history, but I'm still talking with the HDC on this.

"And Antrim, from what I hear, want to play in Leinster, because they'll get a higher level of competition across all grades. So this is not just an issue for the Leinster Council. It's a national issue, for the Hurling Development Committee.

"But there is no short-term solution; if there was we'd have sorted it out last Monday morning.

"Still, there appears to be some meeting of minds to have what we would loosely call a Munster and Leinster championship, the latter involving Galway and Antrim. To me that seems a logical way forward. But a few people still need to be convinced on that."

Brennan was speaking at the Vodafone All Star awards lunch, where Limerick's Ollie Moran and Tyrone's Brian Dooher received the hurling and football awards respectively for the month June.

The same two players had received a similar award from the Gaelic Players Association just 24 hours previously, and Brennan confirmed there would be a rescheduling of the events to avoid repeating such a clash.
© 2007 The Irish Times

Sean Moran a day earlier about it:

MacCarthy Cup is screaming for a rejig

Seán Moran On Gaelic Games I'm not saying I get swamped by public response to this column, but it's possible to get a good idea of what topics are exercising people by monitoring the inbox. A good few years ago, probably during the consultation and debate that preceded the introduction of the qualifiers, when the structure of competitions was topical, the response to any such columns was surprising.

It wasn't just the - hmmm - volume (often in double figures) of replies, but the number of suggestions and proposals for how the championships and the whole season could be organised. These communications arrived thick and fast - 19 in all. Some were very interesting, others a bit cracked. The topic is again current after a weekend that has swelled the rising tide of misgivings about the structure of the senior hurling championship.

At this stage what's the point in further hand-wringing over the state of the Leinster hurling championship without doing something about it? Is there any point in attempting a quick fix or is the answer simply to sit tight and wait for Dublin to arrive as a senior force? The crisis of competition in the province has been a reality since Offaly's great team of the 1990s drifted away and the county fell off the gold standard.

Kilkenny's excellence - in terms of their developmental work and the translation of raw material into senior success - is only half the story. The rest of the narrative concerns how lowly the fortunes of the other counties have sunk. A decade ago three different Leinster counties won the All-Ireland in four years.

Leinster chair Liam O'Neill is correct to identify the struggling counties as his priority rather than the importation of Galway into the eastern province. The point of having a competitive championship is that it signifies the health of the game in the other counties, not that it occasionally leads to Kilkenny being beaten.

Blaming Galway for the crisis in Leinster is unfair. The county has arguably suffered more than it has gained by its isolation in the west and has always been a willing participant in any innovation. In the 1960s they entered the Munster championship, but at a bad time for the county and before the Coiste Iomána initiative bore fruit, so the track record was poor and, as was pointed out to me, the experience a bit dislocated, as Galway felt no great involvement in the province.

Galway supported first in 1996 the cessation of their guaranteed access to All-Ireland semi-finals and five years later their similar right of passage into quarter-finals. Wexford and Offaly have much to do at developmental level, having fallen so far behind Kilkenny - whose exemplary production line stemmed from a moment of clarity following failure to win an 11th successive minor provincial title in 2000 - and Dublin. But that's a matter for the longer term.

Immediately there has to be concern about how to package a championship that is more competitive. At present in Leinster that's not possible. The provincial system in hurling has always been an awkward construct because at its best it had only two functioning competitions and now it's down to just one, making the question of the Munster championship even more urgent. There is no doubting the mystique and history of the hurling championship in Munster - it is after all the only hurling province in the country. It has a long and storied tradition but at the moment it's killing the concept of a well organised All-Ireland.

The primacy of the provincial system is based on the claims of the Munster championship. It maximises interest and promotional opportunity for the GAA in early summer, and with the three-match Limerick-Tipperary encounter that was again in evidence. But the circumstances are overstated. The Munster counties draw crowds because they are five of the top eight counties and matches are more often than not competitive - attendances at Kerry's hurling matches when they were involved were an indicator of what happens when fixtures aren't.

One of the reasons for dumping the current eight-team quarter-finals, which had become the first sensible and fair format for all counties, was that the Munster championship was suffering because its five counties were felt to be guaranteed an All-Ireland quarter-final place.

Yet, there was no evidence of this being the case and the events of recent weeks didn't suggest such a prospect had noticeably dimmed the desire of Limerick or Tipperary to win a provincial semi-final.

Even if there was such evidence, why should the well-being of the one functioning provincial championship be at the expense of the game nationally? There are different options for organising regional-based systems on a more rational basis. Pat Daly, Croke Park's Head of Games, has devoted much thought to streamlining the championships in innovative ways and published his ideas annually in the report to congress.

Three years ago he advocated dividing the MacCarthy Cup counties into a number of smaller conferences that would retain local rivalry, but fit the grouping to the counties rather than vice versa. The overall problem isn't about Leinster; it's about the failure to identify a championship format that caters for all the counties in a position to contest it.

Top teams don't play each other often enough at the optimum time of year. If it hadn't been for the qualifiers we'd still be waiting for first championship matches between neighbours Offaly and Tipperary, and Wexford and Waterford. The MacCarthy Cup is screaming for reorganisation. It's not Munster's fault or Leinster's fault or anyone's fault; it's just the way things have turned out.
© 2007 The Irish Times

Not a bad suggestion High king but from a geographical perspectvie Antrim would have to be in the Leinster group. Galway of course wont like that.!

Can't believe that there are actually two votes in favour of the retention of the status quo! Do these individuals really hate hurling that much that they'd like to accelerate its demise?

Galway and Antrim into Leinster.

Would it really benefit them ?

I remember reading about when Galway entered the Munster championship in 1959 and .. well. Lets just say i don't think they benefited. In 11 years in Munster they won only 1 match.

Granted Leinster is nowhere near the level of Munster but whats beneficial for them ? more competiveness to the province ?

Quote from: sligeach on July 13, 2007, 12:56:04 PM
Galway and Antrim into Leinster.

Would it really benefit them ?

I remember reading about when Galway entered the Munster championship in 1959 and .. well. Lets just say i don't think they benefited. In 11 years in Munster they won only 1 match.

Granted Leinster is nowhere near the level of Munster but whats beneficial for them ? more competiveness to the province ?

The Galway team that entered the Munster Championship was on their weakest ever and combined with poor structures the whole thing was a failure but Galway would enter Leinster as the 2nd best team and Antrim would fancy their chances of beating Laois , Wexford, Dublin and who knows if Kilkenny had to go up North where results are extremely hard to come by a shock here and their would happen.

It would certainly benifit Antrim enormously to be in  Leinster, particularly at minor and U-21 level. An awful lot of the Antrim team that got to the all-ireland final in 1989 played in the leinster minor championship in the late seventies/ early eighties

I think the current format should be retained for the following reasons.

While the Munster championship still continues to produce match's like this year why would anyone want to scrap it.

It still means something to win a Munster championship especially for teams like Limerick, Clare and Tip.

Putting Galway into Leinster is a non-runner as Galway are not from Leinster, it would have to be renamed the not-Munster Competition.

Is putting Galway into Leinster really going to solve anything other than make the Leinster final somewhat competitive some years. Hurling in the weaker counties will still be in the same state as it was before.

The current problem with the Leinster Championship is that no matter who plays Kilkenny they are in for a hiding, granted I still think by putting Galway in the Leinster championship you will still see Kilkenny winning 99% of the Leinster Championships over the next 5 years. Galway in my opinion have this shroud hanging over them where  people think they are better than they are all because they won underage championships (Limerick as an example where underage titles don't equal senior titles) I think by putting Galway into Leinster it could go either of two ways - Galway deliver on their talent and become a serious force in hurling or they suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of Kilkenny and go the way of Wexford, where guys just expect to lose to Kilkenny when they go a few points down in a game and then the flood gates open.

I fear that by putting Galway and Antrim into Leinster you get a scenario where it is either Wexford or Galway (Dublin also in a few years) stepping up to a Leinster final date with Kilkenny and a probable mauling with Antrim Offaly and Laois just playing out a mini championship at the bottom. Standards won't improve, if the GAA are serious they need to have one open draw where teams are seeded - The Leinster teams would benefit more from playing Tipp, Clare and Limerick than they would from playing each other and Kilkenny every year. If they could close the gap with the second tier Munster teams first, then they could aim for Kilkenny, Cork and Waterford

Quote from: Punxsutawney Fergal on July 17, 2007, 08:18:37 AM
The current problem with the Leinster Championship is that no matter who plays Kilkenny they are in for a hiding, granted I still think by putting Galway in the Leinster championship you will still see Kilkenny winning 99% of the Leinster Championships over the next 5 years. Galway in my opinion have this shroud hanging over them where  people think they are better than they are all because they won underage championships (Limerick as an example where underage titles don't equal senior titles) I think by putting Galway into Leinster it could go either of two ways - Galway deliver on their talent and become a serious force in hurling or they suffer defeat after defeat at the hands of Kilkenny and go the way of Wexford, where guys just expect to lose to Kilkenny when they go a few points down in a game and then the flood gates open.

I fear that by putting Galway and Antrim into Leinster you get a scenario where it is either Wexford or Galway (Dublin also in a few years) stepping up to a Leinster final date with Kilkenny and a probable mauling with Antrim Offaly and Laois just playing out a mini championship at the bottom. Standards won't improve, if the GAA are serious they need to have one open draw where teams are seeded - The Leinster teams would benefit more from playing Tipp, Clare and Limerick than they would from playing each other and Kilkenny every year. If they could close the gap with the second tier Munster teams first, then they could aim for Kilkenny, Cork and Waterford


Agree with you 100%.But there is no point lookiing at the problem year after year.Something will have to be done about it and i think an open draw for the ALL Ireland based on championship with seperate Munster and Leinster Championships.

Voted for option two, even if pointed out it's not radical enough. Leave Munster the way it is, its competitive enough going by this year, even if that is not the norm I suppose. Get Antrim and Galway into Leinster, or CUL as someone suggested, it will increase the competitiveness within that group of counties. Maintain a qualifier system also, giving the CUL counties a shot at Munster counties in the group stages. Have relegation/promotion playoffs between McCarthy and the other competitions, teams have to have the hope of making the big table, while those lagging behind have to have the threat of a big stick/hurl. Place a moritorium on championship  structure changes for 5 years, instead of all this chopping and changing we get up to now, and see where we are after that. If that doesn't produce the results needed, then an open draw is next on the agenda. We have to be realistic, as is often said here, over the history of the game there are 3 "superpowers" of the game, who win 80% of the All-Irelands, with other counties having very welcome cyclical successes. What we want to do is increase the standards of those outside of the big 3, and extend the cycles where they are competitive to keep the championship from being a foregone thing, and keep the game truckin.

Quote from: slow corner back on July 13, 2007, 07:00:20 PM
It would certainly benifit Antrim enormously to be in  Leinster, particularly at minor and U-21 level. An awful lot of the Antrim team that got to the all-ireland final in 1989 played in the leinster minor championship in the late seventies/ early eighties

Why did they pull out?

Honestly not sure when or why they pulled out but I know by 1984/85 they had pulled out. Some of my older clubmates used to regale me with stories of how they " outhurled" George O Connor as a minor,lol. Story to be taken with a very large pinch of salt. Players like Desiie, Brian+Hippy Donnelly as well as our current county managers sambo and woody all played in that era which would have been 1976.77 sort of time scale. Think it was tried for 3/4 years.

Down minors also played in the Leinster Championship at that time. On one occasion Antrim and Down both reached the semi finals with Antrim winning and going on to lose to Kilkenny in the final.