Driving between Lurgan and Newry last night, I couldn't help but notice the contrast between all that the north of Ireland has now, thanks to the overall 'peace process', or whatever you'd call it, and the wee loyalist, flag-carrying idiots who just couldn't help themselves but ghettoise town centres once again with their red, white and blue bunting, bastardised Union Jacks/Ulster flags, arches and 'bonnies' for another annual celebration of so-called cultural heritage.
Let them march up and down their own estates if they want to, all year long if they feel it necessary, wreck their neighbourhoods with illegally constructed bonfires and (planning approved?) arches, but I'm sorry, this is western Europe in the 21st century and it's time this crowd grew up.
And stopping traffic in the middle of Armagh (as if its not bad enough) and kept and certain fenian from getting to work last night
The people who feel the need to do this will say it is a long-standing tradition, a celebration of their culture, and be likely point to some nationalist towns and villages being bedecked in GAA regalia, especially if their county is close to a final, etc, and such things as nationalist bunting and flags at Easter, and hunger strike commemorative flags and hoardings which were very extensive in towns and villages and main roads, like the A1 from Newry to the border and A6, pretty well from Toome to Dungiven at intervals, for a lot of last year.
Be inconsistent about it if you like, but expect others to redress the balance, personally I think NI would be better off without flags, bunting, etc, from all traditions other than perhpas on a vey short term basis. It's interesting that less and less people are prepared to adorn thieir own houses with such stuff, even in very strongly loyalist or republican areas, as well as the murals being reduced and others toned down - it's amazing what pride people start to take in their areas when it's their mortgage and their investment / property value that's at stake.
Was down the Lisburn road today, the place was littered with flags.
I totally agree with you that Ireland would be better off without flags or bunting of any kind - and the first step towards that is a complete neutral zone in all commercial centres - free from flags, bunting, arches, bonfires and especially marches - starting with Belfast.
However, again, I do not agree to equating loyalism with the GAA - by all means, talk about republican or Hunger Strike-related commemorations if you wish - but please don't bring the GAA into the discussion.
The thing is, a lot of loyalists appear to see the GAA and all of its trappings as nationalist 'version' of the OO, even if the comparison isn't accurate.
I don't think there's much chance of a ban on marching, it would be seen as an assault on 'one side', an d then there's the right to march and freedom of assembly, which would also involve groups that have nothing to do with the orange / green argument, like trades unions, pride marches, environmental and anti-poverty groups, etc.
Presumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 02:16:15 PM
Presumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.
If you think that's what the loyalists are doing (and you might have a pont), then why ape them?
Gweyltah, why do you continually distance yourself from comments you make?
"thats what the loyalists" "the thing is, a lot of loyalists appear" "The people who feel the need to do this will say it is a long-standing tradition"
You are a wind up merchant, who only sh1t stirs
What is a loyalist? If it's someone who is a member of the Orange Order, who are still even forbidden from attending the funeral mass of one of their 'Roman' (sic) Catholic neighbours, then perhaps I could understand their aversion to other things perceived to be exclusively Irish/nationalist/republican/Catholic.... simply because they are bigots.
However, if it's a DUP supporter, then they now seem to fall into at least 3 camps -
(1) those genuinely interested in power-sharing, respecting cultutal differences, living and let live;
(2) those who voted DUP for strength in numbers (i.e. formerly UUP supporters) but would not at all compare the OO to the GAA;
(3) Ian Paisley Jnr and a few other nuts.
I can't see why a ban on sectarian marches couldn't be imposed in commercial areas in the north - or at least have them restricted. Neo-nazis march in London but not every weekend for 5 months.
I am totally in favour of freedom of assembly for the groups you mentioned outside of the traditional orange / green - I just think there is now room for a mature discussion on the OO, particularly because of developments in the Assembly, changes in demographics and the increasing numbers of foreign nationals living and working here.
Blame it all on the Fenians. Intelligence personified.
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 02:25:47 PM
Blame it all on the Fenians.
Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.
Two sides of the same shitty coin.
Quote from: 5iveTimes on June 26, 2007, 02:21:01 PM
Its a different country down here, no-one cares who you are or what you are, they are too busy getting on with their lives.
I don't think that's strictly true, as the furore at the last Love Ulster march and the furore over plans for another one would indicate. I understand Orange participation in a muti-cultural event in Cork in the last year or two also had to be withdrawn because of pressure and threats from republicans (presumably not those in the mould of Tone or the United Irishmen).
I am not a loyalist, doubtless some of you would call me lots of things but if I was to pick a label myself I woulld say I'm an incurably emancipated liberal. I don't go to or participate in Orange parades any more than I do Hibernian ones, but each to their own. The intolerance shown to the entire Orange tradition on this board, while its extremism is hardly typical of Ireland in general, is disappointing for this era. These are the people that the flag is supposed to represent unity with, unless that's just tokenry on a meaningless rag to you?
Quote from: GweylTah on June 26, 2007, 04:16:14 PM
I don't think that's strictly true, as the furore at the last Love Ulster march and the furore over plans for another one would indicate. I understand Orange participation in a muti-cultural event in Cork in the last year or two also had to be withdrawn because of pressure and threats from republicans (presumably not those in the mould of Tone or the United Irishmen).
Two incidents. Right enough a bastion of intolerance. By the same measure the impeccable respecting of GSTQ in Croke Park last year must mean all our issues with England in particular are resolved.
As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know :) It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.
I challenge you to find even one post where I've ever blamed anything on the "prods".
Mentalman, I'll quote other examples if you like, those came very readily to mind. In any case I didn't say the Republic was intolerant, I suggested it could be more tolerant and wasn't nearly as intolerant as a lot of the extremist Irish nationalists on this board would make you think, I know the board isn't representative.
Why not read and digest what's written rather than what you want to see and moan about?
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.
I challenge you to find even one post where I've ever blamed anything on the "prods".
Your post at 2:16 said
QuotePresumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.
Apologies if you were talking about non-Prod 'sectarian rags' but that was how I read it.
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 07:25:57 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.
I challenge you to find even one post where I've ever blamed anything on the "prods".
Your post at 2:16 said
QuotePresumably this longstanding tradition of littering the place with sectarian rags dates back before the last years Hunger Strike commemoration.
Apologies if you were talking about non-Prod 'sectarian rags' but that was how I read it.
That was in response to dickheads post where he mentioned "loyalists". I have never associated one with the other, and take offence to the suggestion that I do or have done on any post I have ever made on this board.
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 07:41:15 PMThat was in response to dickheads post where he mentioned "loyalists". I have never associated one with the other, and take offence to the suggestion that I do or have done on any post I have ever made on this board.
I'm not sure what point your making. You said:
Taig flags and paraphenalia - good
Prod flags and paraphenalia - sectarian rags
Or am I missing something?
Quote from: GweylTah on June 26, 2007, 02:14:25 PM
The thing is, a lot of loyalists appear to see the GAA and all of its trappings as nationalist 'version' of the OO, even if the comparison isn't accurate.
And yet you keep bringing it up. Funny, that.
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 07:47:16 PM
I'm not sure what point your making. You said:
Taig flags and paraphenalia - good
Prod flags and paraphenalia - sectarian rags
Or am I missing something?
Sammy get the fu*k out of here, I never said anything of the sort. Coming from the man who asks for evidence that the sun rises every morning your reply is hilarious.
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 08:07:26 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 07:47:16 PM
I'm not sure what point your making. You said:
Taig flags and paraphenalia - good
Prod flags and paraphenalia - sectarian rags
Or am I missing something?
Sammy get the fu*k out of here, I never said anything of the sort. Coming from the man who asks for evidence that the sun rises every morning your reply is hilarious.
Happy to apologise if I mis-interpreted your comment but I can't see any other way to read it. What did you mean if it's not what I said?
Quote from: Mentalman on June 26, 2007, 04:37:20 PM
As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know :) It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.
Love Ulster was a provocation whether it occured in Dublin or Belfast - Willie Frazer arriving on the streets of the capital with a full loyalist flute band and rent-a-mob - did they really expect tolerance or acquiescence, a round of applause from supporting Dublin shoppers, hoards of rosey-cheeked kids waving Union flags?
Now, why should Belfast city centre be subjected to this, each and every year, as are so many town centres across the north - and by the way, they don't just march on 12th July.
Your post smacks of NIMBYISM.
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on June 27, 2007, 08:03:54 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on June 26, 2007, 04:37:20 PM
As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know :) It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.
Love Ulster was a provocation whether it occured in Dublin or Belfast - Willie Frazer arriving on the streets of the capital with a full loyalist flute band and rent-a-mob - did they really expect tolerance or acquiescence, a round of applause from supporting Dublin shoppers, hoards of rosey-cheeked kids waving Union flags?
Now, why should Belfast city centre be subjected to this, each and every year, as are so many town centres across the north - and by the way, they don't just march on 12th July.
Your post smacks of NIMBYISM.
Keep your Alan Wickers on FAM, it was a crack at the bullsh!t that goes on around marching north of the border. Not that I understand the NIMBY remark anyway. I already stated that if they could march and be ignored that would be fine, but hardly likely. You have provocative marches forced down your throat in the North so people in the South should take it too?
Quote from: Mentalman on June 27, 2007, 10:18:09 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on June 27, 2007, 08:03:54 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on June 26, 2007, 04:37:20 PM
As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know :) It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.
Love Ulster was a provocation whether it occured in Dublin or Belfast - Willie Frazer arriving on the streets of the capital with a full loyalist flute band and rent-a-mob - did they really expect tolerance or acquiescence, a round of applause from supporting Dublin shoppers, hoards of rosey-cheeked kids waving Union flags?
Now, why should Belfast city centre be subjected to this, each and every year, as are so many town centres across the north - and by the way, they don't just march on 12th July.
Your post smacks of NIMBYISM.
Keep your Alan Wickers on FAM, it was a crack at the bullsh!t that goes on around marching north of the border. Not that I understand the NIMBY remark anyway. I already stated that if they could march and be ignored that would be fine, but hardly likely. You have provocative marches forced down your throat in the North so people in the South should take it too?
Thats not what he's saying Mentalman, he is saying that NO-ONE should have these marches shoved down their throats!
If the idiots and bigots want to march, then let them march where their wanted - not as is the case, where they can cause the maximum annoyance, controversy and trouble.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 26, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
Mentalman, I'll quote other examples if you like, those came very readily to mind.
If you feel the need, seeing as at least one of the other two was complete BS,
Quote from: GweylTah on June 26, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
In any case I didn't say the Republic was intolerant, I suggested it could be more tolerant and wasn't nearly as intolerant as a lot of the extremist Irish nationalists on this board would make you think, I know the board isn't representative.
No you picked two examples of intolerance, to counter a claim that in general people south of the border don't give a flying fig. One of those is well known to us all, and as I pointed out got the reaction it sought, and I refuted it as hardly typical of the general attitude of society in the 26 counties. The other example was one I can't find any reports about online, but I take you at your word. And I simply countered with another well known example of tolerance and what I think is exemplary of the growth of Irish society in general, However my proviso meant that such events are never quite as simple as they appear.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 26, 2007, 07:22:57 PM
Why not read and digest what's written rather than what you want to see and moan about?
Woh Tinky Winky, take it easy with that handbag! You'll have me eye out!
Got a problem with your own methods being used against you? Refuting general sentiments with specific examples, which in general works, except Love Ulster is a really bad example to use. When those are debunked you decide to tackle the man not the ball? And yes, hence the Teletubby remark.
What's sauce for the goose....
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 08:38:03 PM
Happy to apologise if I mis-interpreted your comment but I can't see any other way to read it. What did you mean if it's not what I said?
Sammy before insulting someone you should have had the good grace as to enquire as to what they mean rather than after.
You said "Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'." Now as you haven't even been able to find an instance where I've used the word 'prods' never mind blamed them for anything, please have the good manners to apologise for your insulting remark.
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 27, 2007, 10:38:03 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on June 27, 2007, 10:18:09 AM
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on June 27, 2007, 08:03:54 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on June 26, 2007, 04:37:20 PM
As for Love Ulster, it got the reaction it sought unfortunately. Mostly from scumbags who have little understanding or appreciation of the society they live in, never mind it's history, except perhaps the sort they heard about from the Wolftones in the Celtic Symphony. As for Love Ulster II I think a lot of people in the Republic wish they would have their march and be quietly ignored by the rest of us getting on with our lives, but as that is not possible we remain to be convinced why public safety should be jepordised, tax payers money spent on the event, and the centre of the largest city on the island ground to a halt - it's not Belfast on the 12th you know :) It's a balance of civil liberties versus the greater good, it happens every day.
Love Ulster was a provocation whether it occured in Dublin or Belfast - Willie Frazer arriving on the streets of the capital with a full loyalist flute band and rent-a-mob - did they really expect tolerance or acquiescence, a round of applause from supporting Dublin shoppers, hoards of rosey-cheeked kids waving Union flags?
Now, why should Belfast city centre be subjected to this, each and every year, as are so many town centres across the north - and by the way, they don't just march on 12th July.
Your post smacks of NIMBYISM.
Keep your Alan Wickers on FAM, it was a crack at the bullsh!t that goes on around marching north of the border. Not that I understand the NIMBY remark anyway. I already stated that if they could march and be ignored that would be fine, but hardly likely. You have provocative marches forced down your throat in the North so people in the South should take it too?
Thats not what he's saying Mentalman, he is saying that NO-ONE should have these marches shoved down their throats!
If the idiots and bigots want to march, then let them march where their wanted - not as is the case, where they can cause the maximum annoyance, controversy and trouble.
Cool, I think we just misinterpreted each other. My remark about Belfast was not of the nature of "it's OK up there", it's more of the nature no one has a God given right to march without regard to the provocation or public safety issues it causes, especially with regard to the intent of the march.
NIMBYism - i.e. Not In My Back Yard, the point being, from what I had read, that's it's OK to march all year long as long as it's somewhere 'up in the north' - but your subsequent posting clarifies what you meant.
The point still stands - time to review OO marches in commercial areas. I've never marched with the Hibs, nor am I a member so I have no idea what their 'marching season' is, or how much disruption it causes in loyalist areas or town centres.
Quote from: Donagh on June 26, 2007, 06:06:06 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 03:57:50 PM
Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'.
I challenge you to find even one post where I've ever blamed anything on the "prods".
More lies from wee samuel, he cannot help himself Donagh, don't worry about him.
Quote from: Donagh on June 27, 2007, 10:48:43 AM
Quote from: SammyG on June 26, 2007, 08:38:03 PM
Happy to apologise if I mis-interpreted your comment but I can't see any other way to read it. What did you mean if it's not what I said?
Sammy before insulting someone you should have had the good grace as to enquire as to what they mean rather than after.
You said "Hardly any different from your 'it's all the prods fault'." Now as you haven't even been able to find an instance where I've used the word 'prods' never mind blamed them for anything, please have the good manners to apologise for your insulting remark.
As per my previous post, I'm happy to apologise if I've said something wrong but as far as I can see I just commented on your post.