Was involved in a match at the weekend in England where the referee made some very debatable decisions regarding the Free Kick situation.
On 4 separate occasions the referee hopped the ball from a free kick in scoreable positions. Whilst during the match he would not divulge as to why he had done this, we were later informed that it was because the free takers had 'bounced the ball before taking the kick'. You can imagine the uproar from one of the camps as to this suggestion as it can be clearly seen from any number of televised games on a Sunday that there are many High Profile free takers e.g. Padraig Joyce, Paddy Bradley, have a routine where they bounce the ball before taking a free kick for a score. Can anyone clarify the ruling on this as it would serve to help the argument currently going on over on the Hoganstand website.
Thanks in advance.
You can hop the ball as often as you like now. When the kick from the hand came in first, there was a rule which said you could not hop the ball before kicking it, but that's been done away with.
If the kick was taken from the incorrect position, the ref would have been within his rights to throw the ball up, but not for hopping it before kicking it.
(I'm not sure about toe-tapping a solo. That might constitute a 'kick' to oneself, which would be illegal and cause a hop ball I'd say)
As far as I know there was a rule in place a brave few years ago when it was not allowed to bounce or solo the ball while preparing to take a free. However that rule has long been done away with....
In my opinion when a ref hops the ball its generally because he doesnt know the rule to apply and the hop ball is the get out clause.
What sort of a half-wit referee refuses to say why he gave a free and allows you to carry on making the same mistake? Talk about a Hitler complex.
Surely we should be going the other way and taking the example of rugby referees, who talk the players through everything. Though sometimes I think this gets a bit farcical – like "Get your hand away! Get your hand away!" Surely if his hand is in the wrong place the response should be a penalty, not an instruction to remove it. And if it's not a penalty, it's none of the referee's business where his hand is. Within limits, of course.
Sorry for straying off topic.
I have a simple rule of thumb, the more ref hops a ball the more useless he is. Never fails
Quote from: Hardy on June 19, 2007, 03:23:50 PM
What sort of a half-wit referee refuses to say why he gave a free and allows you to carry on making the same mistake? Talk about a Hitler complex.
Surely we should be going the other way and taking the example of rugby referees, who talk the players through everything. Though sometimes I think this gets a bit farcical – like "Get your hand away! Get your hand away!" Surely if his hand is in the wrong place the response should be a penalty, not an instruction to remove it. And if it's not a penalty, it's none of the referee's business where his hand is. Within limits, of course.
Sorry for straying off topic.
seamus mccormack please take note ! ! !
Had a ref give against us in an Under 16 match this year. Haven't got an answer if he was right yet, so if anyone can help, many thanks. See below.
We won a penalty, took said penalty and scored it. Ref blew whistle and signalled a hop ball. Threw it up on 21 line and game went on. He said the reason for disallowing the goal was because one of the forwards had went too early and broke the 21 yard/semi-circle area.
Can't see this making sense. Should it not just be retaken, know this is the case in soccer and maybe that has mislead me. If a defender breaks it, retaken right or allowed if scored?
Your man from Westmeath, Barry Kelly, did a good job of that at the weekend, or was it Brain Gavin from Offaly? Basically took the heat out of a few incidents by explaining why he gave the free, or didn't, and the players accepted it.
Players are adults, and if you treat them like adults you can expect them to behave as such, and punish them if they don't. If they are treated like children, and you don't explain or say anything to them, they will be a lot harder to handle in my opinion.
As regards the rugby refs, if they *didn't* let players know when they were infringing, there would be a penalty approximately every 30 seconds of play. The ruck and breakldown are very harum-scarum situations, and sometimes it's hard to see if you are onside, offside, etc etc from up close. The players rely on the ref to tell them when they are getting borderline.
several time in the meath Dublin game there was a schmeoozle after a free was given including one where an attacking player 'shane ryan?) got booked but the free was allowed any way is this not the correct place for a hop ball to be given?
Why is it called a hop ball?
Good question Dinny. And why is the 40 known as the 40? i.e. the man on the 40?
To get back to the original question. We discussed this on an earlier thread about referees. My reading of the rule book is that a ball can be bounced before a free but not soloed. This though is only in effect if the ref has blown the whistle to or otherwsie indicated the restart of the game. That is to say that a ref is supposed to blow for a free and then blow again to restart the game. This often does not happen especially with quick frees. Although really only referees assesors seem to care about this.
As a say theres an earlier thread on this.
off topic again but regarding hop ball, crossmaglen seem to have mastered it, ie if a free is given against them at a crucial stage in the game or scoring position a small row seems to break out. all the player does is hold the fella on the floor and small struggle breaks out and ref hops the ball. It really frustrating, but maybe thats craft for you
I've seen Steven O'Neill solo a good few times at his set up to take a free,
never thought anything of it till this thread came up as i wasn't aware of the rule.
lads, Tyrone v Donegal, penalty is given for throwing the ball by Paul Durcan. Couldn't here any of the half time analysis, but I could have sworn a penalty could only be given for a personal foul not a technical foul. Have I got that all wrong?
Quote from: CiKe on June 20, 2007, 06:20:01 AM
lads, Tyrone v Donegal, penalty is given for throwing the ball by Paul Durcan. Couldn't here any of the half time analysis, but I could have sworn a penalty could only be given for a personal foul not a technical foul. Have I got that all wrong?
Any foul by the defending side in the small square results in a penalty. Had he thrown the ball outside the small square, it would have been a 13-metre free.
The same thing happen to John Devine in 2003 against Antrim in Casement. One of the Antrim players slid into John when he has down for the ball. John took a bad knock which he ended up in hostipal with, but after the tackle he threw the ball away as he was in agony. Ref awarded a penalty to Antrim.
Quote from: CiKe on June 20, 2007, 06:20:01 AM
lads, Tyrone v Donegal, penalty is given for throwing the ball by Paul Durcan. Couldn't here any of the half time analysis, but I could have sworn a penalty could only be given for a personal foul not a technical foul. Have I got that all wrong?
Penalty was given against Fay Devlin in 94 Ulster Final for lifting the ball off the ground in the 'wee square'
QuoteLast season Oisin McConville used the bounce ball technique as part of his routine before kicking a free from his hand but he was cautioned by a referee regarding doing so. He has now stopped using this technique.
The ref was wrong in that case.
Rule 2.2, Exception (i):
A penalty kick shall be awarded for an Aggressive Foul within the large rectangle or any foul within the small rectangle.
Rule 4 - Technical Fouls:
4.2 (a) To throw the ball
These would seem to be the rules relevant to bouncing/toe-tapping the ball before taking a free from the hands:
(Under Rule 4 - Technical Fouls)
4.21 To reset the ball for a kick-out/free kick/penalty from the ground, without the referee's permission, after the whistle has been blown for the kick-out/ free kick/penalty, to be taken from the ground.
4.22 To play the ball again after taking a free kick /penalty / sideline kick before another player has touched it, unless the ball rebounds off the goal-posts/crossbar.
Note that 4.21 applies to frees from the ground only, seeming to imply an intent to treat frees from the hand differently, but we can probably presume that is to recognise that you can't re-set a ball in your hands. Unless, of course, toe-tapping or bouncing is interpreted as re-setting and the intent is to exclude them from penalty for a free from the hands.
Under 4.22, toe-tapping or bouncing after the whistle is blown to re-start play could be interpreted as playing the ball again before another player has touched it.
There seems to be room for interpretation. I seem to remember that whatever committee governs rules and refereeing issues interpretations and clarifications of how rules are to be interpreted. I don't know how or to whom these are issued, whether or where they are published or whether an interpretation or clarification has been issued on rules 4.21 and 4.22 as they apply to frees from the hand.
QuoteThere seems to be room for interpretation.
That's always the way and also why every ruling is appealed! The rules need to be black and white.
I know this is a bit of topic but i seen a free given against a player who fisted the ball over a players head, ran round the player and caught the ball again. It was a legal fist pass but the referee said that the ball must tough the ground before the player is allowed to play the ball again.
Is this correct? Should the free be given and what is the official ruling on this?
The ref was correct there. You cannot hand-pass the ball to yourself without it hitting the ground before you catch it again.
Rule 4.7 - To play the ball up with the hand(s) and catch it again before it touches the ground, another player, or goal-posts.
It's all here:
http://www.gaa.ie/page/official_guides.html (http://www.gaa.ie/page/official_guides.html)
You used to be able to do the handpass to yourself when I was playing underage.
Quoteoff topic again but regarding hop ball, crossmaglen seem to have mastered it, ie if a free is given against them at a crucial stage in the game or scoring position a small row seems to break out. all the player does is hold the fella on the floor and small struggle breaks out and ref hops the ball. It really frustrating, but maybe thats craft for you
Spirit, catch yourself one fella. Do you seriously think that we sit and discuss the best ways to slow a game down at crucial times. The paranoia with some people is unbelieveable sometimes. ::)
QuoteI have a simple rule of thumb, the more ref hops a ball the more useless he is. Never fails
We played in the football county final in 2004 against S'neil...Tom O'Kane from Castledawson which is in half of our parish was the ref...he hoped the ball in the county final 12 times....let me repeat that ..12 f**king times..... you can guess what the other half of our parish think of him >:(
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on June 20, 2007, 04:00:04 PM
QuoteI have a simple rule of thumb, the more ref hops a ball the more useless he is. Never fails
We played in the football county final in 2004 against S'neil...Tom O'Kane from Castledawson which is in half of our parish was the ref...
Sure he shouldn't have been allowed ref it anyway.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on June 20, 2007, 03:09:26 PM
You used to be able to do the handpass to yourself when I was playing underage.
Quoteoff topic again but regarding hop ball, crossmaglen seem to have mastered it, ie if a free is given against them at a crucial stage in the game or scoring position a small row seems to break out. all the player does is hold the fella on the floor and small struggle breaks out and ref hops the ball. It really frustrating, but maybe thats craft for you
Spirit, catch yourself one fella. Do you seriously think that we sit and discuss the best ways to slow a game down at crucial times. The paranoia with some people is unbelieveable sometimes. ::)
I wasn't implying that yous discussed it as a tactic, neither was i really getting at cross for doing it, maybe it might have something to do with the lack of experience in the opposition but just seems to happen when we play cross. In the last c'ship game we were 3 points down and won a free about 30 yards out, Tony McEntee dropped the knees ala McMenimen into our boy on the ground, small scuffle ensued, booking for McEntee, hop ball. Cross win hop ball Aaron Kernan flew up the field pointed, game over!
Cavan4ever he was not from our club and ye would know that he did not loves us by the way he favoured s'neil
Yeah i kno he wasn't from your club but from other side of the parish.. which means his club were prob ur biggest rivals . In Cavan a referee doesn't get to referee finals if a neighbouring club is involved i though that rule would apply else where.