What's the thoughts here? Over the years senior clubs in Armagh have dabbled with entering a seconds team in the junior leagues/championship with varying success and they've started doing it again the past year or so. I can see the reasoning behind doing so (reserve football is a joke for anyone seeking meaningful football). Does it go on in any other counties? (I know Tyrone allow it) What's the feelings from proper Junior clubs?
Sport is about patriation. If you want a sub-bench with as many in the Dugout as in the stand, well you've lost the whole meaning of having a club.
There will always be great members who are not great players who should have an avenue to play football for their club.
Second teams also provide an avenue for players to progress to the Senior team and for Senior players on the slide to continue playing into their elder years.
They will certainly become more prevalent in county's where club teams have their acts together.
Our club would have lost a lot of players between minor and senior, simply because the majority of players were not physically nor mentally mature for senior football. The stigma of playing b football seen them go to alternative junior teams instead.
Our underage teams seem to have a lot more players than ever, I would imagine we will have a new junior team within the next 5 years to accommodate these players.
U20 competition in armagh is shambles also and is a footnote in the calendar, again giving those players stuck between minor/senior less of an avenue to transition. Junior football for an 18 year old is a good starting point.
We've done it over the years in both hurling and football.. after dropping out of the senior team and playing reserve football back in the day it was a decent club day out, reserves before seniors and few pints and head home, super Sundays..
Then the kids changed, they'd rather sit on a senior bench than turn out for reserves, standards dropped and interest also..
We went down the road of reserves playing in lower leagues, definitely better than the reserve set up, but you need a pool of 25 players, just in case of call ups to the seniors, not all clubs have that.
But we've been back to the reserve set up but with the reserves on after the seniors! No buzz about it, ref'd one last year, it was brutal
I much prefer a second team in a league, in fact I much prefer them competing for junior and intermediate if they are at that level, but ensure no messing with team selections come championship, teams have to be strictly graded and assessed before season starts.
These lads that don't make senior ever, deserve to win an all county championship also, I can see why they can't progress into Ulster, that's understandable too
Definitely think they're a great thing, at the end of the day the more people getting football at their level the better. Not sure it's fair on the junior clubs though that they csn play championship.
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 12:21:47 PMDefinitely think they're a great thing, at the end of the day the more people getting football at their level the better. Not sure it's fair on the junior clubs though that they csn play championship.
If we look at the players as just players at that level and take away that they are part of a senior club, then they are just that, either junior level or intermediate.
From memory not too many seconds have won junior or Intermediate.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2024, 06:04:04 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 12:21:47 PMDefinitely think they're a great thing, at the end of the day the more people getting football at their level the better. Not sure it's fair on the junior clubs though that they csn play championship.
If we look at the players as just players at that level and take away that they are part of a senior club, then they are just that, either junior level or intermediate.
From memory not too many seconds have won junior or Intermediate.
In Armagh Cross & Killeavy have been the mainstays, big clubs so consistently have the numbers. Cross use their team more for development, Killeavy more for giving lads football (Cross yoyo between Junior & Intermediate)
Clann Éireann entered a junior team last year and won the Junior championship, St Peter's & Madden entered junior teams this year with St Peter's looking like another good outside bet for this years title (21 goals in 5 league games so far).
I'm sure some of the other junior clubs won't be too keen.
Yeah looks like that St Peters team will win junior, don't think it's fair on proper junior clubs imo, let them play league but not championship maybe?
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 08:41:50 PMYeah looks like that St Peters team will win junior, don't think it's fair on proper junior clubs imo, let them play league but not championship maybe?
The runners up (provided they ain't second team) will represent Armagh in Ulster
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 19, 2024, 08:48:41 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 08:41:50 PMYeah looks like that St Peters team will win junior, don't think it's fair on proper junior clubs imo, let them play league but not championship maybe?
The runners up (provided they ain't second team) will represent Armagh in Ulster
Yeah happened last year. Ballyhegan who'd be a decent junior team and have been in intermediate recently were hammered by Clann Eireann seconds in the junior final and then played in Ulster. Just had a look there and CE seconds are 3rd in intermediate B currently.
By all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
Quote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 10:44:58 PMQuote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Yeah they'll be one of the favourites along with Forkhill, Middletown and Ballyhegan. Corrinshego have beaten them already this year and were semi finalists last year so they'll be up there you'd imagine. Playing in the lower division won't benefit Corrinshego and St. Peters though.
On your second point, I'm all for seconds teams competing in the league system, if anything I'd be encouraging more clubs to do it. But we need to have a properly organised reserve championship that is running at the same time as the other championships for them to take part in.
Quote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 10:44:58 PMQuote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Think that's the reason the likes of St Peter's have scrapped reserves and went for Junior football instead. You might get one or two meaningful reserve games a year sandwiched between walkovers and cricket scores. I suppose with junior football you're almost certainly guaranteed the opposition won't cry off at the last minute with something to aim for (promotion & junior championship).
Quote from: general_lee on May 20, 2024, 09:51:06 AMQuote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 10:44:58 PMQuote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Think that's the reason the likes of St Peter's have scrapped reserves and went for Junior football instead. You might get one or two meaningful reserve games a year sandwiched between walkovers and cricket scores. I suppose with junior football you're almost certainly guaranteed the opposition won't cry off at the last minute with something to aim for (promotion & junior championship).
Yeah absolutely, the reserve league is a bit of a joke with teams not fielding and at times fielding very weak teams. Fair play to the Lurgan clubs they've serious numbers by the looks of things.
Quote from: ranch on May 20, 2024, 09:44:14 AMQuote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 10:44:58 PMQuote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Yeah they'll be one of the favourites along with Forkhill, Middletown and Ballyhegan. Corrinshego have beaten them already this year and were semi finalists last year so they'll be up there you'd imagine. Playing in the lower division won't benefit Corrinshego and St. Peters though.
On your second point, I'm all for seconds teams competing in the league system, if anything I'd be encouraging more clubs to do it. But we need to have a properly organised reserve championship that is running at the same time as the other championships for them to take part in.
I get the points on seconds playing in the lower championships being unfair on other clubs, but if it's graded and policed properly then the lads on those seconds, that's their level and being associated to a senior club without a huge opportunity of getting on the senior squad then they are being denied an opportunity to win a recognised all county trophy.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on May 20, 2024, 07:36:04 PMQuote from: ranch on May 20, 2024, 09:44:14 AMQuote from: Armagh18 on May 19, 2024, 10:44:58 PMQuote from: ranch on May 19, 2024, 10:23:19 PMBy all means have them playing league football. There should be a proper reserve championship to accommodate them however. As much as the CE lads would have enjoyed winning a junior championship last year, there was hardly a celebration out of them after they beat Ballyhegan.
As for this year, St Peter's seconds are doing well, only lost one game to league favourites Corrinshego early in the season. Come championship you'd imagine that Forkhill and Middletown would be the favourites if they're at full strength.
That St Peters team will be hard stopped. Yeah probably a tiered league competition for seconds and reserve teams would be best.
Yeah they'll be one of the favourites along with Forkhill, Middletown and Ballyhegan. Corrinshego have beaten them already this year and were semi finalists last year so they'll be up there you'd imagine. Playing in the lower division won't benefit Corrinshego and St. Peters though.
On your second point, I'm all for seconds teams competing in the league system, if anything I'd be encouraging more clubs to do it. But we need to have a properly organised reserve championship that is running at the same time as the other championships for them to take part in.
I get the points on seconds playing in the lower championships being unfair on other clubs, but if it's graded and policed properly then the lads on those seconds, that's their level and being associated to a senior club without a huge opportunity of getting on the senior squad then they are being denied an opportunity to win a recognised all county trophy.
You end up in a situation where you have seconds teams winning a junior championship but they can't go on to play in the provincial series - surely that opportunity is also being denied to them in that case.
The key point you make is that it needs to be policed properly - a good idea in theory but the reality is much different. A reserve championship that's played at the same time as the other championships would be my preference. I'd also remove the link between leagues and championships and encourage clubs to enter reserve teams in the league system if they have the numbers to do so.
Was there not something in Offaly hurling this year where Kilcormac Killoughey had a vote on whether they'd have 2 teams in senior this year.
Since they won intermediate this year.
Quote from: SouthOfThe Bann on May 21, 2024, 03:10:18 PMWas there not something in Offaly hurling this year where Kilcormac Killoughey had a vote on whether they'd have 2 teams in senior this year.
Since they won intermediate this year.
Not sure. I know in Armagh you can only have one team at each grade so if your seconds were promoted to senior or the unlikely event your first team was relegated you could only have one team in intermediate the following year.