I've touched on this in the success or failure of the early championship thread, but as the big throw-in draws closer, I thought it might be worth asking for opinions.
Will the big guns give a toss about the provincial championships? If so, why? What real incentive is there to win your province anymore? Might the pre-season tournaments like the McGrath cup, McKenna etc actually be more useful than winning your province (okay, a step too far with that one).
In my opinion, the provinces will still have merit for the teams who haven't already qualified for the All Ireland or those like Kildare and Meath who realise there's every chance they'll be Tailtean bound, but for all the other qualifiers, provincial success might actually leave them at a disadvantage from a seeding point of view and would very likely leave them at a disadvantage from a squad fitness and injury perspective.
From an injury p.o.v the more matches, the more chances of injuries occurring, fitness wise, it'll be difficult to play provincial football right up until early or mid May and then start into the All Ireland series 2 weeks later. Would it be better to lose early, maybe win one game and lose your provincial semi, then get a month off for a good uninterrupted block of preparation before starting on the All Ireland series?
From a seeding p.o.v, do you really want to be a 2nd seed and be guaranteed to avoid the losing Connacht, Leinster or Munster finalists?
It'll be interesting to find out, but those teams with serious ambitions of winning an All Ireland shouldn't be putting too much emphasis on a provincial title.
And of course we all remember the joyous scenes from the past when counties have won provinces, but comparing a Westmeath win in 2004 with a Longford title in 2025 will not be comparable as the value and prestige of the tournament will have been seriously devalued in the interim. It'll be like the McKenna cup, once it was incredibly prestigous and winning was enough to make a season a success, but as the efforts teams were putting into winning it reduced and other competitions increased in prestige, its value waned. That's where I see the provinces going, we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best.
Influence of this thread come from reading the opinion of Ciarán McKeever? You are using the same headline from the Irish Independent anyway.
Plan from HQ was to make provincial championships like pre-season competitions with their original proposal B format but the current format is not that and still has importance or be it Lessened
As i already said a good start is half the battle and as it stands winning your provincial championship is a round 1 match at home. If you don't reach a provincial final you'll play a provincial champion away in round 1. I think the preference would be to win the group which would include a week rest against your All Ireland Quarter final opponent.
Quote from: onefineday on March 30, 2023, 12:22:15 AM
we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best.
This year Kerry, Dublin will stroll to another provincial title and can rest players while doing it. Hard to see past one of Tyrone, Derry winning the 2023 Ulster championship and Connacht will be won by a Division 1 team. We are unlikely to see that until the connection of the provincial championships with the All-Ireland series is cut and i don't think the provincial councils are going to allow that happen anytime soon.
Quote from: onefineday on March 30, 2023, 12:22:15 AM
I've touched on this in the success or failure of the early championship thread, but as the big throw-in draws closer, I thought it might be worth asking for opinions.
Will the big guns give a toss about the provincial championships? If so, why? What real incentive is there to win your province anymore? Might the pre-season tournaments like the McGrath cup, McKenna etc actually be more useful than winning your province (okay, a step too far with that one).
In my opinion, the provinces will still have merit for the teams who haven't already qualified for the All Ireland or those like Kildare and Meath who realise there's every chance they'll be Tailtean bound, but for all the other qualifiers, provincial success might actually leave them at a disadvantage from a seeding point of view and would very likely leave them at a disadvantage from a squad fitness and injury perspective.
From an injury p.o.v the more matches, the more chances of injuries occurring, fitness wise, it'll be difficult to play provincial football right up until early or mid May and then start into the All Ireland series 2 weeks later. Would it be better to lose early, maybe win one game and lose your provincial semi, then get a month off for a good uninterrupted block of preparation before starting on the All Ireland series?
From a seeding p.o.v, do you really want to be a 2nd seed and be guaranteed to avoid the losing Connacht, Leinster or Munster finalists?
It'll be interesting to find out, but those teams with serious ambitions of winning an All Ireland shouldn't be putting too much emphasis on a provincial title.
And of course we all remember the joyous scenes from the past when counties have won provinces, but comparing a Westmeath win in 2004 with a Longford title in 2025 will not be comparable as the value and prestige of the tournament will have been seriously devalued in the interim. It'll be like the McKenna cup, once it was incredibly prestigous and winning was enough to make a season a success, but as the efforts teams were putting into winning it reduced and other competitions increased in prestige, its value waned. That's where I see the provinces going, we'll see more of the less traditionally successful counties winning as they will still be all out to win their province (both to qualify for the All Ireland and for the trophy itself), but the big guns will not be too pushed at best.
From an ulster county point of view there still is a certain prestige attached to winning ulster. But more importantly the likelihood is it's going to lead to a considerably easier path to a quarter final.
The chances are Mayo/Galway, Kerry and Dublin will win the other provinces. It'll be very hard to top a group when in with one of them teams (you'll be away to one of them the first game). If you don't top the group you are going to have another match the week after last group game and if win that will then be playing one of them teams (or ulster champs) in a quarter final the following week.
There is still a chance of drawing the losers of Mayo/Galway or a good ulster team in your group even if you win ulster but still looks an easier path than the above.
Problem is there are only 2 real Provincial Championships.
Munster is a hurling Province with 1 football County while Leinster is a training ground for Dublin (18 out of last 20 or so).
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41103556.html
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 08:53:35 AM
Problem is there are only 2 real Provincial Championships.
Munster is a hurling Province with 1 football County while Leinster is a training ground for Dublin (18 out of last 20 or so).
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-41103556.html
Dublin are on a bit of a shaky scraw these days. Unfortunately so too are the flourbags and Meath.
Louth to save the day!
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/it-looks-like-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-ulster-championship-armaghs-ciaran-mckeever-42408374.html
Some interesting comments from Ciaran McKeever. He says that Kerry are heading away for a 2 week training camp!! How can that be right when other counties are beating lumps out of each other up in Connacht and Ulster.
He says that Armaghs priority this year is the 'Super' 16s (is that an actual term now!). I don't understand that logic, Armagh have a draw that gives us a good chance of getting to an Ulster final, so for me that should be the priority especially given our recent lack of success at provincial level. We won't win an AI but we could realistically win Ulster.
His final point about the death of the provincial championships could well be true through. I don't think it is the death of them but they won't hold the same status that they once did and could end up being moved to being the first competition on the calendar. That would be a much fairer system, otherwise Dublin and Kerry will continue to have a massive advantage every year.
Quote from: yellowcard on March 30, 2023, 12:54:44 PM
https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/it-looks-like-this-is-the-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-ulster-championship-armaghs-ciaran-mckeever-42408374.html
Some interesting comments from Ciaran McKeever. He says that Kerry are heading away for a 2 week training camp!! How can that be right when other counties are beating lumps out of each other up in Connacht and Ulster.
He says that Armaghs priority this year is the 'Super' 16s (is that an actual term now!). I don't understand that logic, Armagh have a draw that gives us a good chance of getting to an Ulster final, so for me that should be the priority especially given our recent lack of success at provincial level. We won't win an AI but we could realistically win Ulster.
His final point about the death of the provincial championships could well be true through. I don't think it is the death of them but they won't hold the same status that they once did and could end up being moved to being the first competition on the calendar. That would be a much fairer system, otherwise Dublin and Kerry will continue to have a massive advantage every year.
Who let him near a mic ffs.
was just thinking if they got rid of provincial championships linked to all ireland should they replace the preseason competitions and maybe combine connaght-ulster leinster-munster the two winners can then play each other for another new trophy could call it the provincial champions cup or something.
If Kerry win Munster they go into a pretty easy Super-16 group including Sligo as 2nd seeds, which would leave them half-baked going into the 1/4 finals.
Kerry would be better off losing to Tipp and get a tougher group.
Kerry's only motivation to win Munster is so that Cork don't win it.
Seems unfair to have Leinster, Munster and Connaught runners-up as 2nd seeds when 3rd and 4th best in Ulster are better and will end up being 3rd or 4th seeds.
The group games will probably be an anticlimax because the super 8s were.
There aren't 16 decent teams in the country
Quote from: blanketattack on March 30, 2023, 05:20:23 PM
If Kerry win Munster they go into a pretty easy Super-16 group including Sligo as 2nd seeds, which would leave them half-baked going into the 1/4 finals.
Kerry would be better off losing to Tipp and get a tougher group.
Kerry's only motivation to win Munster is so that Cork don't win it.
Seems unfair to have Leinster, Munster and Connaught runners-up as 2nd seeds when 3rd and 4th best in Ulster are better and will end up being 3rd or 4th seeds.
I think you are wrong about the rules in relation to the Super-16s.
The only rule in the rule-book about the make-up of the groups is that the provincial winner and the team they beat in the provincial final can't be drawn in the same group.
Apart from that there are no restrictions. So if Kerry win Munster they have a one in three chance of being drawn against the Connacht, Leinster or Ulster provincial loser.
Two of Galway, Mayo and Roscommon are going to be the 2 of the 3rd seeds as only one of these can get to a provincial final.
Tyrone if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Kerry if they don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot.
Monaghan if don't get to the provincial final would fill the next spot if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot.
Also because Monaghan play Tyrone at least one of those two teams will be a 3rd seed and it could be both, if either Derry or Fermanagh win that Ulster semi-final.
At the moment the final league standing for Derry and Dublin hasn't been decided - whoever wins on Sunday is ranked higher.
Whichever of Derry/Dublin win the Division 2 final and don't get to the provincial final, would be the next team to be 3rd seed (if there was still space in the 3rd seeds pot) and whoever loses the Division 2 final would be next in line to take the last 3rd seed place (if there is still space in the 3rd seed pot).
Because only one of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone can get to the Ulster final, two of Derry, Monaghan and Tyrone will make up the third seeds if Kerry and Dublin get to their provincial finals.
The league rankings at the moment are
Galway/Mayo - both 1st until after Sunday - in reality the result Sunday doesn't affect anything
Roscommon 3rd
Tyrone 4th
Kerry 5th
Monaghan 6th
Derry/Dublin 7th/8th - not decided until Sunday
At the moment Westmeath are one of the 4 4th seeds.
The other 3 4th seeds are made up of the 7th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out, the 6th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out
and the 5th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are removed from the rankings.
If Westmeath gets to the Leinster final the 8th best league finisher after the 8 provincial teams are taken out will replace Westmeath as the 4th 4th seed.
Armagh 9th
Donegal 10th
Louth 11th
Cork 12th
Kildare 13th
Meath 14th
Fermanagh/Cavan 15th/16th - not decided until Sunday
Armagh are the highest ranked team who could be 4th seeds.
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
From Gaa.ie
(https://i.ibb.co/GCmv8st/Screenshot-20230330-184746-2.png) (https://ibb.co/L9KzcQJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/3rjSmqz/Screenshot-20230330-184728-2.png) (https://ibb.co/qycmYf5)
3rd seed in Kerrys group will be a Div 1 team and 4th seed could be Armagh if they don't reach the Ulster final as appears to be the objective for Mr McKeever
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
Headwrecking but quick question. If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships. All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone. Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group. For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
If it's an error it would be corrected already?
The schedule suggests it's not error.
Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21
Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th
Quote from: An Watcher on March 30, 2023, 08:11:42 PM
Headwrecking but quick question. If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships. All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone. Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group. For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!
If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up 2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.
I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on March 30, 2023, 08:11:42 PM
Headwrecking but quick question. If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships. All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone. Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group. For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!
If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up 2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.
I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.
and this is an improvement over past systems?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on March 30, 2023, 08:20:24 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
If it's an error it would be corrected already?
The schedule suggests it's not error.
Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21
Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th
The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say
QuoteEach Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year's provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.
If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed.
If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.
Quote from: dec on March 30, 2023, 08:35:47 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:29:31 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on March 30, 2023, 08:11:42 PM
Headwrecking but quick question. If Kerry, Dublin, Derry and say sligo all win provincial championships. All of these finished in the league behind galway, mayo, roscommon and tyrone. Which teams would be 3rd seeds in the provincial winners group. For example, would tyrone in 4th place in the league tie up with dublin? Hope someone gets where I'm coming from!!!
If Derry win the Ulster final that means that Tyrone either lost to Monaghan or Derry.
There is no way Tyrone can get to a Ulster final if Derry win it.
As they finished 4th in the league Tyrone would be one of the 3rd seeds - they could get drawn in any of the groups - they could even get drawn to play Derry again
Whichever 1 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon lost the Connacht final would make up 1 of the number 2 seeds.
Whichever 2 of Galway, Mayo or Roscommon didn't get to the Connacht final would make up 2 of the number 3 seeds.
Tyrone can get drawn in any group i.e they could be in the group with Sligo or the group with Galway.
They would be playing one of the number 1 seeds.
The 4 number 1 seeds would be Kerry, Dublin, Derry and Sligo.
I'm not sure what you are asking in relation to Dublin.
and this is an improvement over past systems?
The new system is undoubtedly an improvement on what was there previously. It's not perfect but it is a good bit better than what it is replacing.
Automatically thinking that just because something has some bit of complexity to it means that that it can't be an improvement is the type of thinking that would have us still living in the trees.
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on March 30, 2023, 08:20:24 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
If it's an error it would be corrected already?
The schedule suggests it's not error.
Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21
Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th
The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say
QuoteEach Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year’s provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.
If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed.
If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.
Errors have been made in the past i know however it's April on Saturday and group stages starting May 20th. As I said about scheduling why would a beaten Connacht,Munster finalist have potentially 3 weeks to prepare for their round 1 group match and the Connacht,Munster winner only two weeks?
Does this system have a 3 year trial like supers 8s
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.
Quote from: Blowitupref on March 30, 2023, 01:39:33 AM
Influence of this thread come from reading the opinion of Ciarán McKeever? You are using the same headline from the Irish Independent anyway
Completely independent of each other!! I saw the article this evening and was thinking that was a similar headline, fecking ndo journos stealing my line again!!
Quote from: Itchy on March 30, 2023, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.
The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.
Quote from: blanketattack on March 31, 2023, 01:17:49 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 30, 2023, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.
The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.
The final 12?
I think they're planning on calling it preliminary quarter finals?
As I said at the start, this is the beginning of the end for the provinces, with 3 teams qualifying from each group, you just have to win a match pretty much. Then it's knockout. Be better to win your group of course, but not essential and either way, progressing in your province ain't necessarily going to improve your chances of winning the group by enough to justify the efforts and risks.
Expect the prestige and appeal of provincial football championships to fade away over the next 5-10 years.
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on March 30, 2023, 08:20:24 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
If it's an error it would be corrected already?
The schedule suggests it's not error.
Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21
Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th
The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say
QuoteEach Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year's provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.
If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed.
If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.
twohands, the reason it is not stated in the rules is because the provincial match-ups rotate each year.
So Ulster winners and Leinster runners up will be in the same group this year. The fixture list is pretty clear on this, and guarantees every team who makes a provincial final a 2 week gap before their first group game.
Leinster winners and Ulster runners-up will also be in the same group (which will be known as the "Group of Death" as there'll be at least one other good team in it too ;)).
In fact probably every year, the Ulster runners-up would likely be part of the "Group of Death" ;D
Quote from: onefineday on March 31, 2023, 01:30:53 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on March 31, 2023, 01:17:49 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 30, 2023, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.
The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.
The final 12?
I think they're planning on calling it preliminary quarter finals?
As I said at the start, this is the beginning of the end for the provinces, with 3 teams qualifying from each group, you just have to win a match pretty much. Then it's knockout. Be better to win your group of course, but not essential and either way, progressing in your province ain't necessarily going to improve your chances of winning the group by enough to justify the efforts and risks.
Expect the prestige and appeal of provincial football championships to fade away over the next 5-10 years.
Never existed in Munster, long since faded in Leinster.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 31, 2023, 09:17:48 AM
Quote from: onefineday on March 31, 2023, 01:30:53 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on March 31, 2023, 01:17:49 AM
Quote from: Itchy on March 30, 2023, 10:54:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
Surely it will have to be the Sweet 16.
The 4x4? The matrix?
The round after that better have a funky name. The competition will live or die based on what they call that round.
The final 12?
I think they're planning on calling it preliminary quarter finals?
As I said at the start, this is the beginning of the end for the provinces, with 3 teams qualifying from each group, you just have to win a match pretty much. Then it's knockout. Be better to win your group of course, but not essential and either way, progressing in your province ain't necessarily going to improve your chances of winning the group by enough to justify the efforts and risks.
Expect the prestige and appeal of provincial football championships to fade away over the next 5-10 years.
Never existed in Munster, long since faded in Leinster.
The Tipperary players and supporters from 2020 would disagree.
What percentage of Tipp people would know or care about a Covid football thing? ;)
Quote from: Hound on March 31, 2023, 08:28:18 AM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:38:55 PM
Quote from: Captain Obvious on March 30, 2023, 08:20:24 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on March 30, 2023, 08:07:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 30, 2023, 06:45:51 PM
It's already decided Munster Champions and Connacht Runners up will be in the same group and vice versa. Likewise with Leinster/Ulster.
And will ye please stop saying "Super 16"....
This is an error on the schedule - the actual rules for the competition say that the only rule in relation to the groups is that the provincial finalists can't be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final.
There is no mention of the Munster Champions and the Connacht Runners-Up being matched up.
For other competitions like the U20 championship where the provincial match-ups rotate, the match-ups for this year are explicitly stated in the rules booklet.
Also last year's booklet did have the breakdown for the semi-final matchups of Connacht or the team that beat them versus Ulster or the team that beat them.
Whoever was preparing the master calendar used finalists when they should have used winners.
If it's an error it would be corrected already?
The schedule suggests it's not error.
Connacht and Munster finals on May 7th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game May 20th/21
Leinster and Ulster on May 14th and two weeks later four finalists play their round 1 group game on May 27th/28th
The rules suggest that it is an error because of the fact that they say
QuoteEach Group shall consist of one team from each of the seeded classifications in (a) to (d) above.
Teams who have already met in that year's provincial final cannot be drawn to the same group.
If there were any sort of provincial link-up like you are suggesting it would be stated in the rules, like it is stated in the same booklet for other GAA competitions and like it was stated in last year's version of the booklet when there was provincial match-ups.
There would be no need to state that teams who have already met in the provincial final cannot be drawn in the same group if there was to be a provincial element to the draw i.e if the Munster winners were always going to be playing the Connacht runners-up, why would you bother to include in the rules the rule that the none of the provincial winners can be drawn in the same group as the team they beat in the provincial final. The only reason for including this is if there is no provincial match-up fixed.
If you think that an error would be corrected by now you clearly don't have too much experience dealing with the GAA bureacracy.
twohands, the reason it is not stated in the rules is because the provincial match-ups rotate each year.
So Ulster winners and Leinster runners up will be in the same group this year. The fixture list is pretty clear on this, and guarantees every team who makes a provincial final a 2 week gap before their first group game.
Leinster winners and Ulster runners-up will also be in the same group (which will be known as the "Group of Death" as there'll be at least one other good team in it too ;)).
In fact probably every year, the Ulster runners-up would likely be part of the "Group of Death" ;D
Except in last year's version of the rules it was included.
Also this year's version of the rules booklet explicitly spells it out for other competitions where the provincal round-ups rotate like the U20 football championship semi-finals and the various club competitions.
Is one of the most established and senior Journalists John Fogarty in the Irish Examiner wrong also?
What he wrote a few days ago. On an article titled "Untangling the knotted weeds of Sam Maguire qualification"
And how do the provinces match in the Sam Maguire Cup?
The Munster winners will go into a group with the Connacht runners-up and vice-versa and Leinster and Ulster accordingly. In all four groups, the provincial finalists have home advantage in their first game followed by an away game against a league qualifier (fourth seeds against first seeds, third seeds against second seeds) before they face one another in the final round at a neutral venue. The All-Ireland semi-finals are not predetermined by provincial matches but the avoidance of repeat pairings where possible.
If you're one of the top 10-ish, is there any advantage in winning your province?
Quote from: ONeill on April 07, 2023, 11:52:54 PM
If you're one of the top 10-ish, is there any advantage in winning your province?
Ah FFS, so you don't mind one of those other Ulster hoors putting us to the provincial sword! :P
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 08, 2023, 12:15:25 AM
Quote from: ONeill on April 07, 2023, 11:52:54 PM
If you're one of the top 10-ish, is there any advantage in winning your province?
Ah FFS, so you don't mind one of those other Ulster hoors putting us to the provincial sword! :P
We won half of our All Irelands like that.
Quote from: ONeill on April 08, 2023, 12:20:33 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 08, 2023, 12:15:25 AM
Quote from: ONeill on April 07, 2023, 11:52:54 PM
If you're one of the top 10-ish, is there any advantage in winning your province?
Ah FFS, so you don't mind one of those other Ulster hoors putting us to the provincial sword! :P
We won half of our All Irelands like that.
I'd say keep any delusions of All-Ireland grandeur out of the equation at this juncture, let's just keep it local first off, then think about the bigger picture. ;)
If Clare beat Cork today, Meath play in the Tailteann
Unless they reach the leinster final.
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2023, 02:12:09 PM
If Clare beat Cork today, Meath play in the Tailteann
Fairly even in that game.
However, Clare and Meath are not dramatically different in standard, swapping them around would not hugely affect either Sam Maguire or Tailteann cups, it wouldn't belike New York getting in to Sam.
Clare win. A big result for them. Meath have to beat the winners of Westmeath and Louth.
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2023, 03:37:06 PM
Clare win. A big result for them. Meath have to beat the winners of Westmeath and Louth.
I'd say that both of those would love to kick Meath out of the Sam Maguire.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 09, 2023, 03:54:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 09, 2023, 03:37:06 PM
Clare win. A big result for them. Meath have to beat the winners of Westmeath and Louth.
I'd say that both of those would love to kick Meath out of the Sam Maguire.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKCg0XER8YY
The notion that Kildare or Meath would think they are above the Tailteann is pure notions.
I reckon Louth will build and beat Westmeath and Meath.
The provincials are outdated.
Take out NY and London, including Kilkenny, there are 32 teams - a very natural 8x4, or 4x8.
Instead we have 1x12, 1x9, 1x6, 1x5. Makes no sense.
Quote from: ONeill on April 11, 2023, 11:35:38 PM
The provincials are outdated.
Take out NY and London, including Kilkenny, there are 32 teams - a very natural 8x4, or 4x8.
Instead we have 1x12, 1x9, 1x6, 1x5. Makes no sense.
So you throw one team out of Ulster? Not a very big difference.
Aye.
provincials are better at club level because you have to win your county to get into them its not like you have to win like two matches and win a provincial like in some provinces
In answer to the subject line question, yes, this is the beginning of the end of the Provincial Championships feeding into the All Ireland Series. I can see the Provincials replacing the pre-league competitions and being run off as a completely separate competition. That leaves the leagues to feed directly into the Championship seedings and should remove the current unfairness that exists when provincials feed into the All Ireland.
Could well happen in time.....
Provincials on a round robin (with Finals) Jan to mid March with some perk for the Winners.
League/Championship April to mid June
3 Knock out series Sam, Tailteann and say Cúchulann Cups 12/10/10 late June/July.
Quote from: ONeill on April 11, 2023, 11:35:38 PM
The provincials are outdated.
Take out NY and London, including Kilkenny, there are 32 teams - a very natural 8x4, or 4x8.
Instead we have 1x12, 1x9, 1x6, 1x5. Makes no sense.
4x8 is outdated
Now young people wouldn't know how to multiply. They would do it on their phones
2x16 league basis.
Div1
Top 8 go into all Ireland series - knock out on seeded basis. Top 8 straight into quarter final.
Bottom 8 relegation play offs. 2 groups of 4. Bottom 2 each group relegated.
Div 2 - Top 8 Tailteann Cup or something. Semi finalists promoted. Winner gets team holiday.
Bottom 8 play for a Mickey Mouse Cup to finish season out and a team holiday in a campsite in Donegal in November. Or something.
Quote from: Louther on April 12, 2023, 02:08:20 PM
2x16 league basis.
Div1
Top 8 go into all Ireland series - knock out on seeded basis. Top 8 straight into quarter final.
Bottom 8 relegation play offs. 2 groups of 4. Bottom 2 each group relegated.
Div 2 - Top 8 Tailteann Cup or something. Semi finalists promoted. Winner gets team holiday.
Bottom 8 play for a Mickey Mouse Cup to finish season out and a team holiday in a campsite in Donegal in November. Or something.
[/b]
🤣🤣🤣
Quote from: balladmaker on April 12, 2023, 09:22:42 AM
In answer to the subject line question, yes, this is the beginning of the end of the Provincial Championships feeding into the All Ireland Series. I can see the Provincials replacing the pre-league competitions and being run off as a completely separate competition. That leaves the leagues to feed directly into the Championship seedings and should remove the current unfairness that exists when provincials feed into the All Ireland.
I'd agree with that, it seems like the natural progression to play the provincial competition prior to the Leagues commencing. Then create the link between League and championship. But the provincial council delegates will firmly resist it. It would eliminate the unfairness of the provincial system which is currently skewed in favour of Dublin and Kerry. This season will see either Sligo or New York in the AI series which does nothing for either county as they would be potential whipping boys all because of the luck of the provincial draw. Making the link between the League is a much more equitable system as a team will find itself in the competition it deserves to be.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2023, 03:28:04 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 12, 2023, 09:22:42 AM
In answer to the subject line question, yes, this is the beginning of the end of the Provincial Championships feeding into the All Ireland Series. I can see the Provincials replacing the pre-league competitions and being run off as a completely separate competition. That leaves the leagues to feed directly into the Championship seedings and should remove the current unfairness that exists when provincials feed into the All Ireland.
I'd agree with that, it seems like the natural progression to play the provincial competition prior to the Leagues commencing. Then create the link between League and championship. But the provincial council delegates will firmly resist it. It would eliminate the unfairness of the provincial system which is currently skewed in favour of Dublin and Kerry. This season will see either Sligo or New York in the AI series which does nothing for either county as they would be potential whipping boys all because of the luck of the provincial draw. Making the link between the League is a much more equitable system as a team will find itself in the competition it deserves to be.
What system would not skew things in favour of Dublin and Kerry ?
Quote from: seafoid on April 12, 2023, 04:04:39 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on April 12, 2023, 03:28:04 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on April 12, 2023, 09:22:42 AM
In answer to the subject line question, yes, this is the beginning of the end of the Provincial Championships feeding into the All Ireland Series. I can see the Provincials replacing the pre-league competitions and being run off as a completely separate competition. That leaves the leagues to feed directly into the Championship seedings and should remove the current unfairness that exists when provincials feed into the All Ireland.
I'd agree with that, it seems like the natural progression to play the provincial competition prior to the Leagues commencing. Then create the link between League and championship. But the provincial council delegates will firmly resist it. It would eliminate the unfairness of the provincial system which is currently skewed in favour of Dublin and Kerry. This season will see either Sligo or New York in the AI series which does nothing for either county as they would be potential whipping boys all because of the luck of the provincial draw. Making the link between the League is a much more equitable system as a team will find itself in the competition it deserves to be.
What system would not skew things in favour of Dublin and Kerry ?
By playing the provincial competition before the League and severing the link between the provincial championships and the All Ireland series. Kerry had the luxury of spending last week on a training camp in Portugal while the provincial series got underway.
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
Ironically it was the province that is usually the most competitive that served up the most one sided game last week, although our next game should be a cracker. The Rossie and New York wins did no harm at all to the argument in favour of the provincials.
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition
We don't know how the 4x4 is going to work.
There has been a lot of foostering around with championship structures over the last few years.
Without the provincials, League results are definitive. So clare would be playing TC. If Cavan beat Armagh on Sunday and win their semifinal against either Down or Donegal they can qualify for the Sam Maguire. This is more interesting than allocating Cavan to the TC from the start.
Whilst I am not yet a fan of the system as it will devalue the provincials hugely. It is probably worth trying. An upside will be the dominance of Ulster teams over the next quarter century.
A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.
Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.
At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.
But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.
Quote from: Eire90 on April 13, 2023, 08:49:31 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don’t agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what’s the alternative? We don’t have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn’t make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it’s everything on the line, it’s no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it’s gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition
That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
There is a blatant contradiction in what McGuinness has written. There blatantly was a tomorrow in last weekends games particularly for the big teams whose main focus is trying to compete to win Sam Maguire. I think Mayo quite understandably invested more into trying to win the National League final than they did into the Roscommon match. Armagh meanwhile tried out a few fresh players against Antrim that they didn't use during the League campaign. He is indulging in a little bit of nostalgia which is understandable but he is in denial if he thinks that the provincial championships haven't lost a bit of their lustre.
In Clare's case it meant a lot since it has gave them a great chance of competing in the Sam Maguire cup while in Roscommons case it meant a lot since it gives them a realistic chance of winning silverware in Connacht and some bragging rights over their neighbours.
Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2023, 12:36:48 PM
A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.
Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.
At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.
But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.
Fair and well made point also.
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 13, 2023, 08:49:31 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition
That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.
if the provincials cant be a success as stand alone competitions does that not mean they are not as good as made out to be and its the all ireland propping them up.
The european championships are not linked to world cup but its a serious and prestigious tournament.
I think having joint provincial championships to replace the preseason competitions might be better like Connaught-Ulster and Leinster-Munster you could even rotate the pairings each year if you want.
Quote from: yellowcard on April 13, 2023, 03:56:08 PM
There is a blatant contradiction in what McGuinness has written. There blatantly was a tomorrow in last weekends games particularly for the big teams whose main focus is trying to compete to win Sam Maguire. I think Mayo quite understandably invested more into trying to win the National League final than they did into the Roscommon match. Armagh meanwhile tried out a few fresh players against Antrim that they didn't use during the League campaign. He is indulging in a little bit of nostalgia which is understandable but he is in denial if he thinks that the provincial championships haven't lost a bit of their lustre.
In Clare's case it meant a lot since it has gave them a great chance of competing in the Sam Maguire cup while in Roscommons case it meant a lot since it gives them a realistic chance of winning silverware in Connacht and some bragging rights over their neighbours.
I think his point was teams focused on the now than looking to tomorrow. Was Mayo's performance in the league final much better than it was against Roscommon? Mayo's man of the match was their goalkeeper against Galway.
Quote from: Eire90 on April 13, 2023, 06:08:34 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 03:36:46 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 13, 2023, 08:49:31 AM
Quote from: Blowitupref on April 13, 2023, 07:33:42 AM
Jim McGuinness
Quote
For all the talk of provincial competitions smoking out on dying embers, last weekend they produced a spark that lit the flame for the 2023 football championship. From the Bronx to Castlebar to Ennis, none of it felt like a fading of the light. Far from it.
There was some commentary over the weekend suggesting supporters will spend the next six weeks watching games that mean nothing. If you speak to people from Roscommon or Clare after Sundays wins , they might have a different take.
And for me, the number of spectators in New York epitomised what these games represent. It goes beyond football – they provide a tangible link and allow folk maintain a strong culture of identity.
From that point of view, it was a very good weekend for the provincial championships. I don't agree with this whole air of negativity around the provincials, because what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game.
The jury is still out on the new All-Ireland format purely because nobody really knows yet how it will unspool, but we do know what championship football looks like – it's everything on the line, it's no tomorrow, teams playing with an edge, hunger, desire, passion – and all of that was on show last weekend.
So, people who have been calling hard for an end to these competitions need to pause, because once something is gone, it's gone forever. There is so much history attached to them and, even if they might not mean much to some commentators, they absolutely have a place in the hearts and minds of supporters and those involved in coaching and playing the games.
if provincials are so great as McGuiness says they could be play as a stand alone competition
That basically makes them like the pre-season McKenna,FBD competitions then and 2nd string sides would be played, wouldn't get 15 to 20k turning up to view those games, be little or no intensity in those matches either.
if the provincials cant be a success as stand alone competitions does that not mean they are not as good as made out to be and its the all ireland propping them up.
The european championships are not linked to world cup but its a serious and prestigious tournament.
It isn't no, but then the Nations League is linked into the Euros, and progress in the NL has benefits towards potential Euros qualification.
And continuing the football theme, if the Europa League is such a prestigious competition of itself, then why did UEFA in recent years award the winners with automatic qualification to the Champions League for the following season?
Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2023, 12:36:48 PM
A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.
Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.
At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.
But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.
If you're already assured of an all Ireland berth and are in a competitive province (ulster or Connacht) then progressing in your province will likely disadvantage you. An early round loss, like mayo achieved last week leaves them with a chance to recuperate after a successful league, work on fitness, getting healthy and gameplans ahead of the championship which starts in May. For a team with serious all Ireland aspirations that is much more advantageous than another tough game v serious opponents followed by a one sided final for another Connacht medal with the all Ireland to come a fortnight later. The ridiculously condensed season makes provincial success an indulgent luxury that makes no sense for many of the genuine all Ireland contenders.
Quote from: onefineday on April 14, 2023, 12:30:50 AM
Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2023, 12:36:48 PM
A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.
Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.
At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.
But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.
If you're already assured of an all Ireland berth and are in a competitive province (ulster or Connacht) then progressing in your province will likely disadvantage you. An early round loss, like mayo achieved last week leaves them with a chance to recuperate after a successful league, work on fitness, getting healthy and gameplans ahead of the championship which starts in May. For a team with serious all Ireland aspirations that is much more advantageous than another tough game v serious opponents followed by a one sided final for another Connacht medal with the all Ireland to come a fortnight later. The ridiculously condensed season makes provincial success an indulgent luxury that makes no sense for many of the genuine all Ireland contenders.
It's not that condensed if you keep winning as there will be two weeks breaks here and there, more than enough for recovery time. Six/seven weeks is only good if you happen to have a load of injuries and hope most are back by the end of May and Mayo seemed to be at championship fitness already during the league.
I think the genuine all Ireland contenders would be looking to be 1st seed in their group, winning the opening two games and more or less have secured last 8 spot. They won't want preliminary quarter final tie as then it will be more condensed and up against a rested Quarter final opponent.
I'm of the same opinion as OFD.
If you have genuine aspirations of winning the AI, unless you're in Munster, there's no real advantage of progressing in your province. You'll have 3 games in your group, probably only needing 1 win to progress to at least the premlin quarters.
It'll be interesting to watch how this is played out. The likes of Armagh or Roscommon would be delighted at a provincial title so you can't diminish it in that way.
The difference between this and the old backdoor route is that if you exited your championship, you were in a last chance saloon situation which was never great. Now you've the cushion of 3 games to play.
Tbh I think there are a few teams over the years in Ulster and Connacht who won titles they wouldn't have if it was straight knockout. They are still very important but of lesser importance to the genuine AI contenders.
I think the only teams who can afford to turn their nose up at a provincial are Dublin and Kerry and its not as though they even break sweat in their province anyway.
The opposite for me. If you don't have to break a sweat, you might as well play a couple of handy games.
The reality is they're so far above the other teams in those provinces they would nearly need to go out of their way to lose. (Currently - I don't think that was the case for the year Tipp won it as Cork caught Kerry fair and square...)
Quote from: onefineday on April 14, 2023, 12:30:50 AM
Quote from: Hound on April 13, 2023, 12:36:48 PM
A lot of hyperbole about devaluing the provincial championships.
Since the backdoor was introduced, Tyrone lost in Ulster and went on to win the AI more than once. They weren't crying about losing out on their Ulster medals.
Kerry got beat by Cork in Munster and hammered them later on more than once.
Rossies have won a few Connachts since the backdoor was introduced, yet rarely if ever have they been the last Connacht team standing in the All Ireland.
At the start of the championship, there are X number of genuine contenders. How far they go in their province has little or no impact on their chance of winning Sam.
But at the same stage winning your province is still a good achievement. You are beating your neighbours and often fiercest rivals, you are collecting the cup and your medals as the losers look on.
The new system doesn't devalue that one iota. You still get a theoretical slight advantage in the draw, but doesn't help you win the All Ireland, you've still got to win games in the AI series to do that.
If you're already assured of an all Ireland berth and are in a competitive province (ulster or Connacht) then progressing in your province will likely disadvantage you. An early round loss, like mayo achieved last week leaves them with a chance to recuperate after a successful league, work on fitness, getting healthy and gameplans ahead of the championship which starts in May. For a team with serious all Ireland aspirations that is much more advantageous than another tough game v serious opponents followed by a one sided final for another Connacht medal with the all Ireland to come a fortnight later. The ridiculously condensed season makes provincial success an indulgent luxury that makes no sense for many of the genuine all Ireland contenders.
Will it? Getting 1st or 2nd seeds (and not being down for 6 weeks or so while others are playing and fine tuning) is still probably best. You'll be playing teams who didn't get to a final, or a Tailteann winner from last year. This year will tell a story, but you might find that playing games and winning them in your province is still best overall.
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 14, 2023, 09:18:02 AM
The reality is they're so far above the other teams in those provinces they would nearly need to go out of their way to lose. (Currently - I don't think that was the case for the year Tipp won it as Cork caught Kerry fair and square...)
Yeah thats what I mean, 2020 was obviously a total freak year across the board though.
At least Connacht has 3 teams capable of beating each other and Sligo building. In Ulster 8 of the teams capable of being competitive and taking a scalp with about 5 or 6 in any given year capable of winning it.
I was looking for game(s) to attend or watch on TV this weekend.
Fixtures for Sat-Sun 15-16 April
1 Ulster SFC game on Sat
1 Ulster SFC game on Sun
Fixtures for Sat-Sun 22-23 April
1 Connacht SFC game on Sat
2 Munster SFC games on Sat
1 Ulster SFC game on Sat
3 Leinster SHC games on Sat
1 Connacht SFC game on Sun
4 Leinster SFC games on Sun
1 Ulster SFC game on Sun
2 Munster SHC games on Sun
Above doesn't include games in Joe McDonagh, Christy Ring and Lory Meagher hurling cups.
Wouldn't you think the GAA might have fixed some more Provincial SFC and SHC games for this weekend :(
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 14, 2023, 09:18:02 AM
The reality is they're so far above the other teams in those provinces they would nearly need to go out of their way to lose. (Currently - I don't think that was the case for the year Tipp won it as Cork caught Kerry fair and square...)
Agree 💯, they'd probably have to try to lose in their province - or will this be the year kildare do it - don't laugh, they've beaten the dubs and run them to a point the last 2 years - if it hadn't been fir that 5 goal blast at the start of last year's Leinster who knows what might have happened (okay, clutching now....).
Quote from: Dreadnought on April 14, 2023, 09:49:19 AM
Will it? Getting 1st or 2nd seeds (and not being down for 6 weeks or so while others are playing and fine tuning) is still probably best. You'll be playing teams who didn't get to a final, or a Tailteann winner from last year. This year will tell a story, but you might find that playing games and winning them in your province is still best overall.
Disagree with this, 1st seed is useful, 2nd seed is a pot you don't want to be in. If you're second seed you can't get the losing Leinster, Connaught or Munster finalists, all of them likely to be amongst the weaker teams on paper.
Quote from: onefineday on April 15, 2023, 12:40:37 AM
Quote from: Dreadnought on April 14, 2023, 09:49:19 AM
Will it? Getting 1st or 2nd seeds (and not being down for 6 weeks or so while others are playing and fine tuning) is still probably best. You'll be playing teams who didn't get to a final, or a Tailteann winner from last year. This year will tell a story, but you might find that playing games and winning them in your province is still best overall.
Disagree with this, 1st seed is useful, 2nd seed is a pot you don't want to be in. If you're second seed you can't get the losing Leinster, Connaught or Munster finalists, all of them likely to be amongst the weaker teams on paper.
That's this year. D1 had 4 Ulster teams, 3 from Connacht and Kerry
Back after a long layoff for various reasons, the thing is the provincial championship is the only thing many counties can realistically aspire to, many a pub wall is decorated with provincial champions, on a good or lucky day many of the lower ranked counties can get there or can dream of getting there.
Quote from: giveballaghback on April 15, 2023, 02:01:15 PM
Back after a long layoff for various reasons, the thing is the provincial championship is the only thing many counties can realistically aspire to, many a pub wall is decorated with provincial champions, on a good or lucky day many of the lower ranked counties can get there or can dream of getting there.
That's true and to quote Jim McGuinness "what's the alternative? We don't have them, and so we fight for two cups instead of six? That doesn't make sense for the development of the game"
It's the inequality of the provincial numbers that the issue is with.
There you go lads, no one will throw a provincial game because they don't want to be doing 5 or 6 weeks of conditioning work
Provincial Championship game at it's best in Omagh today. Two teams throw their lot at it and injury time winner. Won't see many better knock out championship games this year than that match this afternoon.
if Tyrone or mayo win the all ireland would it be bad for the future of provincials.
It would be bad for the human race ;D
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/04/17/big-days-out-for-monaghan-clare-roscommon-and-new-york-wont-save-the-provincial-championships/
But it doesn't take a degree in physiology to see that Tyrone and Monaghan players were falling down with cramp everywhere you looked in Omagh as the game wore into its 78th minute, while their counterparts in Kerry and Dublin were at home on the couch. Structural imbalance is still written into the DNA of the competition, handing a clear advantage to the two counties least in need of it.
It could well be, therefore, that we need to enjoy this interlude of highly entertaining provincial matches while they last. The reality of modern sport is that they are an inefficiency that will likely be squeezed from the system before too long.
When a team doesn't get games they complain because they are going into the next match not battle hardened.
When a team does get games they complain about being tired.
Is there a clear view on which is right?
Quote from: Sportacus on April 17, 2023, 07:33:16 PM
When a team doesn't get games they complain because they are going into the next match not battle hardened.
When a team does get games they complain about being tired.
Is there a clear view on which is right?
Ask any player snd they'd rather be playing big games than tramping up and down training fields!
Quote from: seafoid on April 17, 2023, 07:10:18 PM
https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/2023/04/17/big-days-out-for-monaghan-clare-roscommon-and-new-york-wont-save-the-provincial-championships/
But it doesn't take a degree in physiology to see that Tyrone and Monaghan players were falling down with cramp everywhere you looked in Omagh as the game wore into its 78th minute, while their counterparts in Kerry and Dublin were at home on the couch. Structural imbalance is still written into the DNA of the competition, handing a clear advantage to the two counties least in need of it.
It could well be, therefore, that we need to enjoy this interlude of highly entertaining provincial matches while they last. The reality of modern sport is that they are an inefficiency that will likely be squeezed from the system before too long.
I couldn't understand the logic of the Ulster counties who killed the move to break the link between the provincials and the All-Ireland.
I said at the time they would come to regret it and lo and behold.
I'd say Kerry and Dublin can't believe their luck at how things worked out.
Clerkin is well wide of the mark if he thinks the provincials are going to be changed any time soon - the provincial councils know well that if the provincial championships go, they will be in the firing line straight away.
are you saying if provincial championships go then provincial councils would then go would that then mean the club championship would become a an open competition between the country champions.
I think provincial club competions are better than inter county as you have to win multiiple games just to qualify for provincial club.
Quote from: Eire90 on April 18, 2023, 03:10:57 AM
are you saying if provincial championships go then provincial councils would then go would that then mean the club championship would become a an open competition between the country champions.
I think provincial club competions are better than inter county as you have to win multiiple games just to qualify for provincial club.
The thing is from an admin point of view the provincial councils are pretty inefficient.
There's a lot of unnecessary dupilcation of work, roles and wasted money.
It would make far more sense to scrap the provincial councils and divide their roles between Croke Park and the counties.
The provincial senior intercounty championships are the big money-makers for the provincial councils if they get reduced in importance i.e. the link with the championship is broken/the provincials made the equivalent of the pre-seasons game in importance, the provincials flow of money would take a big hit and as soon as they have less money the importance/power of the provincial councils would decrease as well.
All the same competitions would be run - just probably more efficiently, cheaper and fairer if there were being run from Croke Park.
You could still have it run the club championships along the provincial lines - just Croke Park would be running the provincial stages as opposed to 4 different councils.
In terms of history and crowds I don't think it would make any sense to have an open draw in the club championship as you'd imagine that the crowds attending would take a bit hit with the likely longer distance to travel to games.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 18, 2023, 11:01:02 AM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 18, 2023, 03:10:57 AM
are you saying if provincial championships go then provincial councils would then go would that then mean the club championship would become a an open competition between the country champions.
I think provincial club competions are better than inter county as you have to win multiiple games just to qualify for provincial club.
The thing is from an admin point of view the provincial councils are pretty inefficient.
There's a lot of unnecessary dupilcation of work, roles and wasted money.
It would make far more sense to scrap the provincial councils and divide their roles between Croke Park and the counties.
The provincial senior intercounty championships are the big money-makers for the provincial councils if they get reduced in importance i.e. the link with the championship is broken/the provincials made the equivalent of the pre-seasons game in importance, the provincials flow of money would take a big hit and as soon as they have less money the importance/power of the provincial councils would decrease as well.
All the same competitions would be run - just probably more efficiently, cheaper and fairer if there were being run from Croke Park.
You could still have it run the club championships along the provincial lines - just Croke Park would be running the provincial stages as opposed to 4 different councils.
In terms of history and crowds I don't think it would make any sense to have an open draw in the club championship as you'd imagine that the crowds attending would take a bit hit with the likely longer distance to travel to games.
So you actually do understand the logic . Needed more than just Ulster in that Congress vote BTW.
The super 8s were a flop because there weren't 8 decent teams and a lot of matches were lopsided.
Lopsided matches are of no interest to casual viewers . 32 county pairings may have no history.
The provincial system has fabulous rivalries built over a century. That will always stand to the provincial championships.
Quote from: seafoid on April 18, 2023, 04:02:46 PM
The super 8s were a flop because there weren't 8 decent teams and a lot of matches were lopsided.
Lopsided matches are of no interest to casual viewers . 32 county pairings may have no history.
The provincial system has fabulous rivalries built over a century. That will always stand to the provincial championships.
Aren't 16 either and Westmeath, the Connacht runners up plus maybe the Leinster runners up as well will get a tanking or 2. Although back then Roscommon took a few trimmings I think it it overall a more level playing field now and there wouldn't be a whole pile between this years division one plus Derry and Dublin if any 2 played tomorrow.
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Saying as 3 teams get out of the group surely there won't be any dead rubbers as 1 win can see you come third?
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 19, 2023, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Saying as 3 teams get out of the group surely there won't be any dead rubbers as 1 win can see you come third?
There will still be a lack of balance given that there aren't 8 good teams. It will get interesting at QF stage but even there there may be hammerings.
Last year Derry/Clare and Dublin/ Cork were non events
The GAA funded Dublin without looking after the competitive interests of the other 11 counties in Leinster. It's their own fault.
There's a top 10 out there so far this year.
Might be a 9 if Donegal continue sliding.
The weakest 4 will be eliminated after the Group games while the "Preliminary Quarter Finals"* will take care of the rest.
*Are Quarter Finals now Preliminary Semi Finals?
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 19, 2023, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Saying as 3 teams get out of the group surely there won't be any dead rubbers as 1 win can see you come third?
There will still be a lack of balance given that there aren't 8 good teams. It will get interesting at QF stage but even there there may be hammerings.
Last year Derry/Clare and Dublin/ Cork were non events
The GAA funded Dublin without looking after the competitive interests of the other 11 counties in Leinster. It's their own fault.
Is there not 10 decent teams? I don't think any of the top 10 teams by league position this year would play each other and not be at least reasonably competitive. (Donegal may implode completely who knows what will happen there, but in a normal year they're a similar level to the rest)
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 19, 2023, 01:41:18 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:36:38 PM
Quote from: Armagh18 on April 19, 2023, 12:27:07 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Saying as 3 teams get out of the group surely there won't be any dead rubbers as 1 win can see you come third?
There will still be a lack of balance given that there aren't 8 good teams. It will get interesting at QF stage but even there there may be hammerings.
Last year Derry/Clare and Dublin/ Cork were non events
The GAA funded Dublin without looking after the competitive interests of the other 11 counties in Leinster. It's their own fault.
Is there not 10 decent teams? I don't think any of the top 10 teams by league position this year would play each other and not be at least reasonably competitive. (Donegal may implode completely who knows what will happen there, but in a normal year they're a similar level to the rest)
I don't think they can all translate to the business end.
The days of do or die football in the irish summer heat is now over
Errrrr.... have you read the format?
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 12:01:21 PM
Quote from: Eire90 on April 19, 2023, 05:31:58 AM
one of the reason super 8s flopped was dead rubbers
It will be the same this year.
Shouldn't be the same when 2nd and 3rd are going into a prem Quarter final. Last 8 of the championship should be knock out football IMO that's where they got it wrong with the "Super 8s" and right with this current format but the group winner will have the advantage of the extra week rest/preparation over their Quarter final opponent.
In 2017 only the Ros Mayo qf was competitive and the replay wasn't.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship
Last year 1 of the qfs was competitive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_All-Ireland_Senior_Football_Championship
The Super 8s brought the last 8 bias into the round robin format.
The GAA can reduce the length of the competition and it can change the number of matches but it can't guarantee competitive matches.
It's all about priorities.
It's not clear that the round robin will be more compelling than the provincial championships.
The only way to get guaranteed unmissable matches would be to replicate the league in a round robin system. But that would exclude 25 counties from the all Ireland and have a snowball's hope in hell of being accepted.
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 08:22:17 PM
It's not clear that the round robin will be more compelling than the provincial championships.
The only way to get guaranteed unmissable matches would be to replicate the league in a round robin system. But that would exclude 25 counties from the all Ireland and have a snowball's hope in hell of being accepted.
League is the league that needs to be made even more important and don't need our two main competitions to be similar. The All Ireland is meant to be a cup competition. Underdogs going on a run is what makes any cup competition interesting does this new round robin format help underdogs or lessen their chances of producing such memories?
Those wanting an end to Provincial Championships got extra ammo for their case this afternoon .
Quote from: Rossfan on April 22, 2023, 05:47:52 PM
Those wanting an end to Provincial Championships got extra ammo for their case this afternoon .
And the opposite for this evening's match in Munster between Limerick and Clare with both giving their all with so much at stake for the winner and loser.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on April 19, 2023, 11:25:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 19, 2023, 08:22:17 PM
It's not clear that the round robin will be more compelling than the provincial championships.
The only way to get guaranteed unmissable matches would be to replicate the league in a round robin system. But that would exclude 25 counties from the all Ireland and have a snowball's hope in hell of being accepted.
League is the league that needs to be made even more important and don't need our two main competitions to be similar. The All Ireland is meant to be a cup competition. Underdogs going on a run is what makes any cup competition interesting does this new round robin format help underdogs or lessen their chances of producing such memories?
Less chance for me. Best chance for Ulster side is to chin one of Dublin v Kerry before they play a tight match. Won't happen now
Should the gaa bring in mercy rule