Sinn Fein are in terminal decline as a political force in the Republic of Ireland.
There can be no other cogent analysis of their situation when one considers -
(1) They've put the guns away and gone into government with Paisley in the North
(2) They spent a forturne promoting bright young things such as Mary Lou McDonald and Pearse Doherty only to see them trounced at the polls.
(3) Gerry Adams revealed himself as a politician of very little substance during the General Election campaign (McDowell made a monkey out of him during the smaller party's Leader's debate).
If Sinn Fein couldn't make hay down here with all they had going for them in the North then they can forget it.
They didn't, as Adams remarked, get 'squeezed' during the election. Their vote simply didn't show up and their much vaunted 'machine' was proved to exactly what it is - a myth (south of the border, anyway).
It's one thing to take on the SDLP, quite another to take on FF/FG.
And despite the high turnout in the election, it should be remembered that -
(a) Much of their vote here relies on an electorate just a likely to stay in bed than actually go to the polling station.
(b) They failed to recognise that they were dealing with a far more sophisticated electorate in the south than in the north, where economics/quality of life, and not an emotional connection to history or years of discrimination is the key factor in determining one's first preference vote.
Quote from: Pietas on June 11, 2007, 11:13:59 AM
Sinn Fein are in terminal decline as a political force in the Republic of Ireland.
There can be no other cogent analysis of their situation when one considers -
(1) They've put the guns away and gone into government with Paisley in the North
(2) They spent a forturne promoting bright young things such as Mary Lou McDonald and Pearse Doherty only to see them trounced at the polls.
(3) Gerry Adams revealed himself as a politician of very little substance during the General Election campaign (McDowell made a monkey out of him during the smaller party's Leader's debate).
If Sinn Fein couldn't make hay down here with all they had going for them in the North then they can forget it.
They didn't, as Adams remarked, get 'squeezed' during the election. Their vote simply didn't show up and their much vaunted 'machine' was proved to exactly what it is - a myth (south of the border, anyway).
It's one thing to take on the SDLP, quite another to take on FF/FG.
And despite the high turnout in the election, it should be remembered that -
(a) Much of their vote here relies on an electorate just a likely to stay in bed than actually go to the polling station.
(b) They failed to recognise that they were dealing with a far more sophisticated electorate in the south than in the north, where economics/quality of life, and not an emotional connection to history or years of discrimination is the key factor in determining one's first preference vote.
No comment on the polticial side of things but you've made huge assumptions and managed to insult a lot of people during that rant
Yes, I've made assumptions, and possibly people with an affiiliation to Sinn Fein might be insulted.
But would anyone like to disucss the points raised?
Sinn Fein's share of the votes increased in the last election. However, it did not translate into seats.
Sure they didn't make the progress they were hoping to make, but to say they're finished.. "Are you havin' a laugh?"
Point 1: The 26 county electorate invariably show their stuoidity time after time, continually voting for wnakers like Ahern and Harney, in spite of drastic failures,like Hospital trolleys, no clean water in Galway (Bertie is the Basil Fawlty of Irish politics).
Point 2: Sinn Fein has four seats in the Dail, which is one seat more than Michael Mc Didntdowell has personally and four seats more than the SDLP has (or ever will have in the Dail if they had the balls to stand), and four seats more than any Unionist party could win if they stood for Westminster in any constituency in England, Scotland and Wales.
Point 3: Combining Sinn Fein's votes in elections North and South, makes them a considerable force in Irish Politics. They have traditional heartlands in Kerry, North Dublin and the Border counties. As they develop and make their mark on Northern politics their vote in the 26 counties will only improve drastically unlike any of the other parties who are now at peak appeal in terms of electoral support
Sinn Fein (and every other NI party) get found out when they have to discuss bread and butter issues, as was seen with Gerry in the debate.
If the answer can't be summed up as 'themmuns did it' then they flounder. Hopefully as things start to move on and we move away from them and us into taxes, hospitals, schools etc we'll start to get a better breed of politicians coming through, to replace the current muppets.
Just a minor point but Sinn Fein increased their vote by standing more candidates
SF are far from finished in the South and I'd confidently predict that once they've learnt the lessons from this election and now have the time and space to develop their policies, they'll become the only left alternative party in the south.
Quote from: T Fearon on June 11, 2007, 11:35:44 AM
Point 1: The 26 county electorate invariably show their stuoidity time after time, continually voting for wnakers like Ahern and Harney, in spite of drastic failures,like Hospital trolleys, no clean water in Galway (Bertie is the Basil Fawlty of Irish politics).
Point 2: Sinn Fein has four seats in the Dail, which is one seat more than Michael Mc Didntdowell has personally and four seats more than the SDLP has (or ever will have in the Dail if they had the balls to stand), and four seats more than any Unionist party could win if they stood for Westminster in any constituency in England, Scotland and Wales.
Point 3: Combining Sinn Fein's votes in elections North and South, makes them a considerable force in Irish Politics. They have traditional heartlands in Kerry, North Dublin and the Border counties. As they develop and make their mark on Northern politics their vote in the 26 counties will only improve drastically unlike any of the other parties who are now at peak appeal in terms of electoral support
1: Get a donkey from a nearby field,throw a tricolour on it and it'll get elected in West Belfast.Very funny for a shinner to call the southern electorate thick.
2: Sinn Fein have four seats in the Dail.Thats one less before the election,and a lot less than 10 to 15 they said they were going to get.
3: Why did their vote in North Kerry, Cavan/Monaghan and Dublin go down if they are heartlands?
Sinn Fein's vote share increase is directly attributable to to an increased field of candiddates, notably through Jonathon Ó Brien (Cork North Central) Joanne Spain (Dublin Mid-West) and Martin Kenny (Roscommon/Sth Leitrim).
Fianna Fáil voters who might otherwise have switched to Sinn Fein did not, because they don't trust Sinn Fein to run the country.
Anyone here read the Sinn Fein manifesto? It identified plentry of problems, but failed to put forward one credible solution.
Sinn Fein also did a complete u-turn on corporation tax in a campaign awash with mixed messages.
The upshot of all this is whether or not Sinn Fein does or does not stand for a 32 county socialist republic.
If it does, then it should have said so.
Also, continually focusing on its successess in another jurisdiction to an electorate which hasn't cared for over 30 years is pretty much a waste of time. Watching candidates in the Republic being baby-sat by MLAs and MEPs is off-putting.
Quote from: SammyG on June 11, 2007, 11:45:02 AM
Sinn Fein (and every other NI party) get found out when they have to discuss bread and butter issues, as was seen with Gerry in the debate.
If the answer can't be summed up as 'themmuns did it' then they flounder. Hopefully as things start to move on and we move away from them and us into taxes, hospitals, schools etc we'll start to get a better breed of politicians coming through, to replace the current muppets.
that about sums it up pretty well. gerry adams was woeful in the tv debate (on the other side if mcdowell 'won' that a lot of good it did him) and their economic policies are up their hole. there is a 25% left vote in the republic and sf need to get to the right hand side of that spectrum and fast. having said that 7% of the vote in a pr system will usually leave you in a pivitol position. if they had 6 seats instead of 4 i wonder would bertie still ignore them. sf problem remains transfers, there crucial in pr - brady in dublin central got less than 950 votes and gets elected while doherthy (i think) in donegal got over 8000 and didnt get in and that about says it all...
Quote from: Pietas on June 11, 2007, 12:26:13 PM
Sinn Fein also did a complete u-turn on corporation tax in a campaign awash with mixed messages.
The upshot of all this is whether or not Sinn Fein does or does not stand for a 32 county socialist republic.
If it does, then it should have said so.
Also, continually focusing on its successess in another jurisdiction to an electorate which hasn't cared for over 30 years is pretty much a waste of time. Watching candidates in the Republic being baby-sat by MLAs and MEPs is off-putting.
some amusing comments and your opinion is obv subjective.
SF are a long way off the pace in the south and it will only improve in time - however, they need to get rid of the hoods
that got into the political party. While there are mostly good politicians in the north, the southern candidates are just not the right calibre of people.
OK a lot will represent the same kind of people in their areas, but that is no reason to have them as candidates when some are
under educated and neanderthal (it always amuses me to see lower classes voting for some upper echelon tw*t that only parachutes into a less affluent area
of a constituency at each election time -and spends the rest of the time avoiding such areas!).
My opinion in answer to some of your opinions would be
1. SF didnt put any guns away - you are confusing them with the IRA , which were and are not the same body of people let alone movement.
SF have def bemused a lot of the IRA fraternity with their recent antics - joining the ruc/psni body and powersharing are just two examples!
2. sf are (like FF and FG) after a 32 county Ireland - but NOT a socialist one. That old marxist cr*p seems to be mostly gone.
3. votes will prob increase as memories of the six counties fade and better sf candidates prove themselves on the ground in local areas.
4. sf will eventually be the same capitalistic party like the rest of the parties in the south - FF, FG, PD etc manifestoes when compared in 12 years time to the
last election manifesto will look like night and day. They wont want to be shown this of course or have it pointed out to them that the part is rapidly and obviously becomming 'mainstream'.
5. Defo SF made themselves look foolish by having Adams hippy like and near retired personna 'debate' against the pirhanas on TV.
I think the likes of the Green party, SF and maybe a new version of the democratic left/PD's are only good for politics here.
We need more diversity and fraud watchers to stop the lethargy and corruption that existed in previous years.
Quote from: T Fearon on June 11, 2007, 11:35:44 AM
Point 1: The 26 county electorate invariably show their stuoidity time after time, continually voting for wnakers like Ahern and Harney, in spite of drastic failures,like Hospital trolleys, no clean water in Galway (Bertie is the Basil Fawlty of Irish politics).
Point 2: Sinn Fein has four seats in the Dail, which is one seat more than Michael Mc Didntdowell has personally and four seats more than the SDLP has (or ever will have in the Dail if they had the balls to stand), and four seats more than any Unionist party could win if they stood for Westminster in any constituency in England, Scotland and Wales.
Point 3: Combining Sinn Fein's votes in elections North and South, makes them a considerable force in Irish Politics. They have traditional heartlands in Kerry, North Dublin and the Border counties. As they develop and make their mark on Northern politics their vote in the 26 counties will only improve drastically unlike any of the other parties who are now at peak appeal in terms of electoral support
Point 1. I agree with you T.Feron
Point 2. SDLP could easily merge with Labour if they came South as that is what they are in the North. Actually Fine Gale, the SDLP & Labour could establish a Social Democratic Party to match FF.
The Unionists win quite alot of seats on the Island of Britain, you may know them as the Conservatives/Tories.
Sein Fein have 4 Seats 2 less than the Greens & less than the Independents.
Point 3.What happens in the North does not have as big an impact on Southern Politics as you may think, most of the people of Munster & Connacht feal we are in a constand struggle with Dublin, while you lot are struggling with London, many a Connachtman would reckon you are lucky not to be hitched to Dublin, it would be great to keep all our Oil & Gas in a Republic of Connacht.
Also Fine Gael made about 30 seat gain now thats a drastic improvement & I reckon we will gain more in the next general election @ Christmas than Sinn Fein will.
Lastly I totally disagree that Sinn Fein are dead, their expectations where far to great & their leader knew too little about the 26 counties and what matters to its people. Sinn Fein needs a Southern Leader who joined SF post this latest agreement, SF also needs to run politicians without paramilitary links or criminal records & trust me watch your vote increase. Also renaming your party would gain you thousands of votes alone. To a vast swade of the Southern Population the word Sinn Fein is a no-no.
In my opinion SF will within an election or 2 reach 8 seats and then sit at that level indefiniatably
Quote from: Pietas on June 11, 2007, 12:26:13 PM
Sinn Fein's vote share increase is directly attributable to to an increased field of candiddates, notably through Jonathon Ó Brien (Cork North Central) Joanne Spain (Dublin Mid-West) and Martin Kenny (Roscommon/Sth Leitrim).
Fianna Fáil voters who might otherwise have switched to Sinn Fein did not, because they don't trust Sinn Fein to run the country.
Anyone here read the Sinn Fein manifesto? It identified plentry of problems, but failed to put forward one credible solution.
Sinn Fein also did a complete u-turn on corporation tax in a campaign awash with mixed messages.
The upshot of all this is whether or not Sinn Fein does or does not stand for a 32 county socialist republic.
If it does, then it should have said so.
Also, continually focusing on its successess in another jurisdiction to an electorate which hasn't cared for over 30 years is pretty much a waste of time. Watching candidates in the Republic being baby-sat by MLAs and MEPs is off-putting.
That analysis seems pretty accurate to this (admittedly distant) observer.
However, if only from a Northern perspective, I would qualify the part I've highlighted.
Frankly, for the last 40-odd years (if not its entire existence), SF has been a single-issue party i.e. Brits Out/Smash Partition. Whilst they pursued this by paramilitary means, this limited the amount of electoral support they could get in NI and alienated all but a tiny minority in ROI.
When they realised that the "armed struggle" simply wasn't going to work, they switched to an electoral strategy. This increased their appeal in NI, especially when they persuaded Northern Nats that they could "deliver". However, the problem for them in NI is that their appeal remains strictly limited, for two reasons. First, 55% of the electorate would chew their own arm off before they would ever vote SF. Second, if/when the other 45% should ever conclude that SF isn't actually able to deliver a UI, then support, at least from amongst those for whom this is a crucial issue, is liable to wane and they will find the challenge of the SDLP etc, campaigning on more "bread and butter" issues, may be revitalised.
As for the ROI, increasingly the electorate down there appears to be saying that when it comes to actually casting their vote in an election, they don't actually give a damn about a UI, even where negotiated by normal democratic means. Instead, they are concerned with the issues which affect them on a day-to-day basis.
As such, SF's "Unique Selling Proposition" of being the only all-Ireland political party cuts no ice, since "All politics is local" (as somebody once said). Therefore, if SF is to build a widespread political base in the ROI, it has first to establish a clear political identity on socio-economic issues, then it has to sell it to the electorate.
Regarding the former, its problem is that if it is to appeal to the widest possible constituency, it effectively needs to adopt a centre-right stance and even if it were willing/able to do so, it would be elbowing for room in a very crowded field. Alternatively, if it sticks to its present (ill-defined) left-wing/anti-EU stance, it may have the field to itself, but its also likely to be an empty one!
And whichever stance it takes, it still leaves the (latter) problem i.e. their ability to sell themselves to the Southern electorate. In doing so, they will find that the Southern parties etc haven't exactly been asleep for the last 80-odd years when it comes to constructing their respective political campaigning machines. Futher, SF might find that the methods which they have successfully employed in NI over the last 40 years may not be quite so "acceptable" in the other "Three Green Fields" as they were in the "Fourth"!
They're between a rock and a hard place: Carry on campaigning on an issue - the Border - which is effectively settled (and not to their satisfaction), or, start afresh to campaign on issues where their rivals have had an 80 year start.
You know, if he only had the wit to know it, the oul bigot Paisley should be pissing himself! After 30 years of shouting from the outside how he was going to "Smash SF" (entirely without success), he now finds that by embracing them on the inside, he may actually be able to smother them in their very Northern heartland!
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
Over to you, Donagh! :D
If a normal political party had an election result like Sinn Fein had there would be calls for Gerry Adams to step down.
But Sinn Fein are not a normal political party.
Quote from: Swinging Fiona on June 11, 2007, 01:09:52 PM
If a normal political party had an election result like Sinn Fein had there would be calls for Gerry Adams to step down.
But Sinn Fein are not a normal political party.
Maybe thats why they get on so well with the DUP, its a job for life, at least one think you can say about SF its Nepotism is not as blatent as the DUP, under its leader for life. Actually aren't Free Presbytarians a break away from Presbytarians who are the same as Hugeonts, Purtitans & Calvinists, I thouht thats why they left the Catholic Church becuase of Nepotism & Omnipitant!!! (excuse the spelling) leaders for life.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
Bertie electoral prospects greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand........Will you ever stop posting on the forum pal. Your living in dreamland, you haven't a clue.
Quote from: Swinging Fiona on June 11, 2007, 01:09:52 PM
If a normal political party had an election result like Sinn Fein had there would be calls for Gerry Adams to step down.
How do you figure that? They got 4 seats on the back of 142,500 1st preference votes. Labour got 20 seats on 208,000 1st preference votes. Their 320573 1st preference votes in Ireland this year have solidified their position as the third largest politician party in the country. They also have 4 full ministries in the northern government. Hardly a disastrous few months.
Election aftermath and the task ahead!
By EOIN Ó BROIN SF Candidate in Dún Laoghaire
There is much I agree with in Mícheál Mac Donncha's election analysis in last week's An Phoblacht. The most important question he asked was why Sinn Féin was not in a better position to weather the storm that was Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael's election success.
Much discussion since the count has focused on the smaller parties being squeezed by the presidential-style campaign waged by the two larger parties and the national media.However, while this is certainly the case for the PDs and Independents, for the parties of the left no squeeze occurred. Rather Labour, the Greens and Sinn Féin simply remained stagnant. In our case progress was halted, not simply by a Fianna Fáil fightback, but by weaknesses and limitations in our campaign which with the benefit of hindsight we need to analyse, understand and correct.
Fianna Fáil's gains were at our expense. Across the country, their percentage increases almost matched our decrease constituency for constituency. Our gains in 2004 were primarily at their expense, and our target seats for 2007 likewise.There is little doubt that their party strategists and local organisation understood the nature of the Sinn Féin threat. Fianna Fáil set out to convince these floating republican voters to return to the Fianna Fáil fold through a combination of the Enda Kenny fear factor, anger at the PDs, the rejection of Sinn Féin in government and effective, on-the-ground organisation. The degree to which this strategy succeeded surprised everyone, including Fianna Fáil, but clearly it worked. In effect Fianna Fáil set out to halt and reverse the trend set by Sinn Féin in 2004.
Sinn Féin weren't squeezed by a presidential-style campaign. We were held back by an experienced Fianna Fáil electoral machine that understood its vulnerabilities and responded effectively. That we failed even to notice this in the course of the campaign is a consequence of our own organisational weaknesses and inexperience in the 26 Counties.
It is important to acknowledge the relative size and inexperience of our election machine in the South. It is equally important to grasp that as we grow our understanding of the differences between electoral realities North and South will become clearer.
Our understanding of our electorate in the 26 Counties, both core and potential, is only developing, as is our understanding of how and why they vote in both local and Leinster House elections. The assumption that we can simply translate positive feedback on the doors or previous election results into polling day gains clearly isn't adequate.
In future we need to be more circumspect and more sophisticated in assessing and projecting our core strength and potential growth, and develop our constituency and media campaigns accordingly.
We also need to be mindful that our electoral growth has and continues to be built on slow, gradual, grassroots campaigning and community work. Our dramatic failure to poll well in Dublin Central, let alone win a seat, should be a lesson to us for the future not to deviate from what has worked in the past.
This was the first election in which Sinn Féin fought the public and media battle primarily on the basis of policies. A substantial reduction in negative media coverage coupled with significant progress in the peace process ensured that on television and radio, in the papers and on the doors, we were involved in policy debates about the economy, taxation, health, housing and crime.
On all of these areas we have strong, radical, left-of- centre republican positions. However, we clearly failed to defend these positions effectively. The leaders debate on RTÉ was just one of a number of interviews post Ard Fheis in which senior party spokespersons appeared weak and uncomfortable with our policy positions.
Our attempt to avoid the issue of taxation was seen by the media for what it was: an exercise in evasion. The pre-election abandonment of our policies on corporation tax, capital gains tax and a 50% upper band made us appear inconsistent to many, irrespective of their actual view on the policy.
More importantly, it also alienated left-of-centre voters, who chose instead left independents such as Brid Smyth and Joan Collins, almost costing Aengus Ó Snodaigh his seat.
The centre ground is a crowded political place. Sinn Féin does not belong there and should not be in the business of trading fundamental redistributive policies in the hope of short-term electoral gain. That's a kind of politics that we should leave to Fianna Fáil.
If we want to build an Ireland of equals, we need to be able and willing to explain to the electorate exactly how much this will cost and where the money will come from, including those instances when increased taxes are the most appropriate course of action.
Without trying to spin our way out of what was undoubtedly a bad election, we nonetheless need to find positives from which to build for the future.
Firstly the most important fact of the election must be that the 143,410 people who voted for Sinn Féin on 24 May can now be considered our core vote. That in itself is an important achievement and a solid base to build from.
Secondly, in a number of constituencies our vote increased, most significantly in Donegal. All of this growth bodes well for the upcoming local government elections in two years' time.
Thirdly, for those areas where growth was small or nonexistent it should be a good incentive to focus on the task ahead and immediately return to what we do best: community-based campaigning and radical republican politics.
Finally, and probably most importantly, we need a serious and open debate about the political and economic position that Sinn Féin wants to occupy into the future. Mícheál Mac Donncha was absolutely right when he said in last week's An Phoblacht that 'Sinn Féin is a part of the left in Irish politics.'
To those activists who thought that a shift to the centre would benefit us in this election, I would say that you were proved wrong. Avoiding and then abandoning sound policies in the mouth of an election is bad politics.
Sinn Féin should continue to develop and defend our platform as a radical, left-wing republican party, building Irish unity and an Ireland of equals. Fianna Fáil's success in this election was made in spite of growing public discontent at the quality of public services. The absence of a clear and meaningful alternative was Fine Gael and Labour's weakness. That is the space where Sinn Féin belongs and where our future growth is to be found.
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 01:47:59 PM
Quote from: Swinging Fiona on June 11, 2007, 01:09:52 PM
If a normal political party had an election result like Sinn Fein had there would be calls for Gerry Adams to step down.
How do you figure that? They got 4 seats on the back of 142,500 1st preference votes. Labour got 20 seats on 208,000 1st preference votes. Their 320573 1st preference votes in Ireland this year have solidified their position as the third largest politician party in the country. They also have 4 full ministries in the northern government. Hardly a disastrous few months.
Sinn Fein then must ask why did they get so few seats from so many votes.
Its a fact that they do not attract transfers unlike Labour and the Greens. If you can't attract transfers,you won't get seats.
Mary Lou Mac Donald was touted as all but elected in Dublin Central but failed.
Sean Crowe lost his seat having topped Dublin SW in 2002.
None of the four TDs returned topped the poll,three did in 2002.
Failed to gain a seat in Donegal or Sligo/Leitrim where they talked themselves up getting three.
The party leader being shot to pieces on national TV in a pre election debate.
Far too much focus on progress made in the north,not enough on real issues in the south.
Until Sinn Fein wake up,they will be nothing more than a protest vote in the south.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
Bertie electoral prospects greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand........Will you ever stop posting on the forum pal. Your living in dreamland, you haven't a clue.
In the run-up to closely-fought general elections, Party leaders actively seek out every last photo-opportunity which they feel might gain them votes and avoid all those which might cost them votes.
Bertie clearly felt that Paisley on the Boyne was one of the former, otherwise he'd never have agreed to it.
By contrast, he made it quite clear that there would be no smiling photos with Adams, never mind the chance of a coalition government including SF.
Of course, it is just possible that Bertie's judgement on this was wrong; however, I doubt it, since the Election Results demonstrate that he got just about everything else right.
Now remind me again, who's living in dreamland? ::)
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 01:57:51 PM
Election aftermath and the task ahead!
By EOIN Ó BROIN SF Candidate in Dún Laoghaire
Sinn Féin should continue to develop and defend our platform as a radical, left-wing republican party, building Irish unity and an Ireland of equals...
...That is the space where Sinn Féin belongs and where our future growth is to be found.
Interesting, even brave*, analysis by Mr. O. Broin.
However, if he's correct in his conclusions (quoted above), then he/SF have got a huge problem.
Namely, there is no evidence that "radical, left-wing" policies hold any great appeal to the electorate in the Republic; if anything, that appeal is diminishing all the time (as it is in other liberal democracies in Western Europe, such as France, Germany and, ahem, the UK).
As for "building Irish unity", SF played that card, for the last time in the forseeable future, when they gave up the guns and signed the GFA. The overwhelming reaction in the ROI was "Good. Now what's for dinner this evening?"
As for "an Ireland of equals", never mind that 26 counties of that Ireland are increasingly becoming less equal (economically, at least) and not overly bothered by it, into the bargain, if the Ireland of Equals envisaged by SF is ever going to come about, it will only do so with the willing co-operation of a million Irish Unionists in NI.
And whatever their appeal to the other people of Ireland, SF are a million miles from securing Unionist agreement for anything they have to offer.
* - "Brave" in his criticism of the present Leadership. I presume Mr. O. Broin is a Southerner, otherwise he might be more aware of Gerry's usual sensitivity to challenges to his leadership. "Internal Security", anyone? :o
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
Lack of Oranges leaves Sinn Féin sucking on a lemon
Newton Emerson
Newton's Optic: Sinn Féin has blamed "a serious shortage of Protestants in the 26 counties" for its poor showing in last week's election.
"Sinn Féin draws its core support from people who can't be relied on to vote," explained Dr Pat Answer, Professor of Advanced Shinnerology at Dublin Sunday Business College.
"They might be too drunk or hung-over on election day, or have a court appearance or a meeting with their parole officer.
"They might have injured themselves by climbing through a kitchen window while carrying a wide-screen television. Or they might simply have lost track of the date because they never go to work.
"Whatever the reason, Sinn Féin voters need to be provoked to the polls and there simply aren't enough Protestants in the Republic to cause the necessary level of antagonism."
The situation is very different in Northern Ireland, where the daily sight of Protestants cutting their perfect hedges, driving their sensible cars and going to church in elaborate hats wedged tightly onto their pointy little heads ensures that Sinn Féin voters are always angry enough to cast a ballot.
Attempts to widen the party's southern appeal beyond its traditional sectarian base may only have made matters worse.
"According to our research, many Sinn Féin voters thought that Mary Lou McDonald was a Protestant," Dr Answer said. "She certainly has that smug look about her. Or at least she certainly did."
Dublin Sunday Business College has defended the wider sociological methodology behind its research, which overestimated Sinn Féin's final tally by a statistically acceptable 300 per cent.
"We were right about the number of people dumb enough to vote for Sinn Féin," Dr Answer said.
"We just forgot that they were lazy as well."
For party activists the question now is where they go from here.
"Well, we can't go back up North," Sinn Féin community outreach negotiator Anne Phoblacht said. "It's full of Protestants."
Developing a separate southern strategy could also prove problematic.
"We warned people on the doorsteps to vote for us or the Protestants would get in," Ms Phoblacht said. "But everyone just laughed because they thought we meant Trevor Sargent."
The Irish Times understands that senior party figures have already discussed the possibility of bringing more Protestants into the Republic. Martin Ferris has agreed to charter a boat and Aengus Ó Snodaigh has offered the use of a van.
"We're mainly interested in people from Nigeria," Ms Phoblacht said. "You can have any Protestants you like as long as they're black."
Experts agree that this is Sinn Féin's only hope for an electoral breakthrough.
"There's no point being sectarian when there aren't any Protestants and no point pretending to be non-sectarian when there aren't any Protestants," Dr Answer explained.
"There's also no point talking about equality when you've no Protestants to be equal to and no point talking about rights when you can't claim that Protestants are infringing your rights.
"So really it's all the Protestants' fault. No wonder people hate those hedge-cutting freaks."
But it's not all bad news for Sinn Féin. The party polled quite well in Border counties due to Northern Ireland's provocative proximity.
"If there had still been some Protestant farmers in the area we might even have won a few seats," Ms Phoblacht said.
"What a pity we killed them."
© 2007 The Irish Times
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
MI5 must have upped their payments, then. Or maybe he just found those Northern Bank Twenties too much bloody trouble to change...
Anyhow, any thoughts on my earlier post (at 1.05 pm)?
FECK THE ELECTIONS. HAS ANYONE A SPARE MAGAZINE FOR AN ARMALITE
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 02:17:35 PM
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
Bertie electoral prospects greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand........Will you ever stop posting on the forum pal. Your living in dreamland, you haven't a clue.
In the run-up to closely-fought general elections, Party leaders actively seek out every last photo-opportunity which they feel might gain them votes and avoid all those which might cost them votes.
Bertie clearly felt that Paisley on the Boyne was one of the former, otherwise he'd never have agreed to it.
By contrast, he made it quite clear that there would be no smiling photos with Adams, never mind the chance of a coalition government including SF.
Of course, it is just possible that Bertie's judgement on this was wrong; however, I doubt it, since the Election Results demonstrate that he got just about everything else right.
Now remind me again, who's living in dreamland? ::)
FF's vote held up because Bertie shook hands with RIP......
will ya just stop posting on the forum or kill yourself or something ya fool.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 03:20:45 PM
FF's vote held up because Bertie shook hands with RIP......will ya just stop posting on the forum or kill yourself or something ya fool.
That's not what I said.
Now back to class, before the Teacher finds out you're mitching off...
Superb analysis by O'Brion and as you say lads unusual for APRN to publish anything critical of the leadership. For me the problems facing the party are many fold. FF targeted Crowes seat apparently as they identified it 9 months ago as the only one they could possibly squeeze in that constituency. The fact the SF has to chase the same votes as Berties gang means they have to fight the best machine in the business.
Some solutions;
• Clarity on polices – left leaning without being Marxist (sensible polices on immigration for example)
• Good quality candidates, articulate and confident who can take on the McDowells of this world, but keep the local and grounded
• Gain more local government seats and continue to build the party in terms of membership numbers
Its going to be tough though and the party north and south could diverge as in the North they will be pushed more and more towards the centre ground, becoming the FF of the north. If the party in the republic is more left leaning will the cause problems?
Adams has a role but I think the new northern minister need to be seen down here too, Conor Murphy, Cartriona Ruan for example. Showing a newer face to the party. Anyway that's my thoughts on it.
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
He failed to get elected in Dún Laoghaire! ;)
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 04:12:44 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
He failed to get elected in Dún Laoghaire! ;)
Just as well he is so well educated. At least he won't have to sign on ;D
Quote from: Sky Blue on June 11, 2007, 02:48:26 PM
Lack of Oranges leaves Sinn Féin sucking on a lemon
Newton Emerson
Newton's Optic: Sinn Féin has blamed "a serious shortage of Protestants in the 26 counties" for its poor showing in last week's election.
"Sinn Féin draws its core support from people who can't be relied on to vote," explained Dr Pat Answer, Professor of Advanced Shinnerology at Dublin Sunday Business College.
"They might be too drunk or hung-over on election day, or have a court appearance or a meeting with their parole officer.
"They might have injured themselves by climbing through a kitchen window while carrying a wide-screen television. Or they might simply have lost track of the date because they never go to work.
"Whatever the reason, Sinn Féin voters need to be provoked to the polls and there simply aren't enough Protestants in the Republic to cause the necessary level of antagonism."
The situation is very different in Northern Ireland, where the daily sight of Protestants cutting their perfect hedges, driving their sensible cars and going to church in elaborate hats wedged tightly onto their pointy little heads ensures that Sinn Féin voters are always angry enough to cast a ballot.
Attempts to widen the party's southern appeal beyond its traditional sectarian base may only have made matters worse.
"According to our research, many Sinn Féin voters thought that Mary Lou McDonald was a Protestant," Dr Answer said. "She certainly has that smug look about her. Or at least she certainly did."
Dublin Sunday Business College has defended the wider sociological methodology behind its research, which overestimated Sinn Féin's final tally by a statistically acceptable 300 per cent.
"We were right about the number of people dumb enough to vote for Sinn Féin," Dr Answer said.
"We just forgot that they were lazy as well."
For party activists the question now is where they go from here.
"Well, we can't go back up North," Sinn Féin community outreach negotiator Anne Phoblacht said. "It's full of Protestants."
Developing a separate southern strategy could also prove problematic.
"We warned people on the doorsteps to vote for us or the Protestants would get in," Ms Phoblacht said. "But everyone just laughed because they thought we meant Trevor Sargent."
The Irish Times understands that senior party figures have already discussed the possibility of bringing more Protestants into the Republic. Martin Ferris has agreed to charter a boat and Aengus Ó Snodaigh has offered the use of a van.
"We're mainly interested in people from Nigeria," Ms Phoblacht said. "You can have any Protestants you like as long as they're black."
Experts agree that this is Sinn Féin's only hope for an electoral breakthrough.
"There's no point being sectarian when there aren't any Protestants and no point pretending to be non-sectarian when there aren't any Protestants," Dr Answer explained.
"There's also no point talking about equality when you've no Protestants to be equal to and no point talking about rights when you can't claim that Protestants are infringing your rights.
"So really it's all the Protestants' fault. No wonder people hate those hedge-cutting freaks."
But it's not all bad news for Sinn Féin. The party polled quite well in Border counties due to Northern Ireland's provocative proximity.
"If there had still been some Protestant farmers in the area we might even have won a few seats," Ms Phoblacht said.
"What a pity we killed them."
© 2007 The Irish Times
Newton Emerson - aka William Frazer by any chance ? Must be a meember of FAIR http://www.victims.org.uk/main.html
The usual baloney regarding Republican 'ethnic cleansing' dressed up as humour with a swipe against SF. ( BTW, I'm not an SFer, my belief is that since 1994 they are on the road to eventual almalgamation with FF, it will start as coalition partners in 2 or 3 elections time, whatever. Eventually they will be swallowed up offically into FF. Say what they will, that's political co option is their real ' peace strategy'.)
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 04:12:44 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
He failed to get elected in Dún Laoghaire! ;)
It was never his goal to get elected in Dún Laoghaire.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 04:46:46 PM
Newton Emerson - aka William Frazer by any chance ? Must be a meember of FAIR http://www.victims.org.uk/main.html
If you read the Irish News every Saturday you will know who Newton Emerson is.
Quote from: scalder on June 11, 2007, 04:11:39 PM
Some solutions;
• Clarity on polices – left leaning without being Marxist (sensible polices on immigration for example)
• Good quality candidates, articulate and confident who can take on the McDowells of this world, but keep the local and grounded
• Gain more local government seats and continue to build the party in terms of membership numbers
Its going to be tough though and the party north and south could diverge as in the North they will be pushed more and more towards the centre ground, becoming the FF of the north. If the party in the republic is more left leaning will the cause problems?
Your analysis seems pretty sensible to me, but I can't imagine it's what SF want to hear, since it merely reinforces their awareness of how deep in the shit they really are.
As regards your solutions, moving to the left - even if stopping short of Marxism - inevitably restricts them in the ROI to a niche constituency. Of course, under a system of PR, niche, or single-issue parties can sometimes acquire a disproportionate influence. However, with the ROI already overloaded with almost as many parties as voters(!), the last thing any of them wants is another "bird in the nest" - and a cuckoo, at that! Which explains why the mainstream parties in the ROI are all happy to co-operate in ignoring SF.
And in any case, being the party of the (reduced) left in a modern-day partitioned South is somewhat of a climb-down from SF's historic claim to be the party of (an all-Ireland) Republic!
As for good quality candidates, the image and background of many of those who currently represent the party is not the most "conducive", shall we say, to your average would-be political activist in the South. And for any who may be ambitious for office etc, the mainstream parties offer much more realistic prospect of advancement.
And regarding your last suggestion, that's all well and good, but it's going to take years; I don't see that many of the present leadership either have those years, nor see why they should wait that long, in order to secure the "reward" which they consider rightfully theirs after decades of struggle and sacrifice. (The pleasures of Armani suits and designer glasses eventually lose their allure, I imagine)
And as for the North-South divergence, the way things are, that is not an unrealistic proposition, seeing as how the Leadership is in the North, where potential for growth is limited, but the potential for growth is in the South - where the Leadership most definitely isn't! Will Adams and Co be prepared to cede authority to a new generation in the South which not only has different priorities to those in the North, but "never served"?
For SF to continue to follow its original aspirations of 1905 etc, this can only be on an All-Ireland basis. But until/unless they can demonstrate the capacity to end partition, they're going nowhere. In fact, by collaborating with the hated Brits in a partitionist Government in Stormont, freely recognised by every mainstream party in the Republic, it could be argued that they're moving
away from their historic destiny, not towards it!
Was this how Partition was meant to end? Not with a Bang (TNT), but with Wee Martin cosying up to Big Ian (Tea and Toast)... :D :D :D
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 04:46:46 PM
Newton Emerson - aka William Frazer by any chance ? Must be a meember of FAIR http://www.victims.org.uk/main.html
The usual baloney regarding Republican 'ethnic cleansing' dressed up as humour with a swipe against SF. ( BTW, I'm not an SFer, my belief is that since 1994 they are on the road to eventual almalgamation with FF, it will start as coalition partners in 2 or 3 elections time, whatever. Eventually they will be swallowed up offically into FF. Say what they will, that's political co option is their real ' peace strategy'.)
Not familiar with the concept of satire, then? Perhaps you should ask a Grown-Up... ::)
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 04:12:44 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
He failed to get elected in Dún Laoghaire! ;)
It was never his goal to get elected in Dún Laoghaire.
Why did he stand if his goal wasn't to be elected? You're hard work Donagh.
http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/results/constit-22.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/results/constit-22.html)
Quote from: Sky Blue on June 11, 2007, 06:05:30 PM
Why did he stand if his goal wasn't to be elected? You're hard work Donagh.
Plenty of people run who have no chance of being elected. They may want to make a single-issue point or put down a marker for the future. The problem for SF in DL is that unless the goal was to finish dead last - behind the PD's, for chrissake! - they didn't achieve anything at all.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 11, 2007, 01:26:56 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
Bertie electoral prospects greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand........Will you ever stop posting on the forum pal. Your living in dreamland, you haven't a clue.
you might be the one in dreamland there supermac. like it or not the north was a good news story for bertie and bertie like all good politicians flogged it for all it was worth.
Quote from: Sky Blue on June 11, 2007, 06:05:30 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 04:50:51 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 04:12:44 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 03:10:40 PM
Quote from: Silky on June 11, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 02:38:16 PM
Eoin O'Broin was a Sinn Fein councilor for North Belfast.
Another failed para-shooter!!
O'Broin is an accomplished author, academic, magazine editor, member of the SF Ard Comhairie, SF Director of European Affairs, community activist, elected representative and is fluent in three or four languages. I don't know what standard you are using Silky, but I doubt very much O'Broin has ever failed in anything he has set himself.
He failed to get elected in Dún Laoghaire! ;)
It was never his goal to get elected in Dún Laoghaire.
Why did he stand if his goal wasn't to be elected? You're hard work Donagh.
http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/results/constit-22.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/elections2007/results/constit-22.html)
To offer the electorate the option.
Quote from: Pietas on June 11, 2007, 11:13:59 AM
Sinn Fein are in terminal decline as a political force in the Republic of Ireland.
There can be no other cogent analysis of their situation when one considers -
(1) They've put the guns away and gone into government with Paisley in the North
(2) They spent a forturne promoting bright young things such as Mary Lou McDonald and Pearse Doherty only to see them trounced at the polls.
(3) Gerry Adams revealed himself as a politician of very little substance during the General Election campaign (McDowell made a monkey out of him during the smaller party's Leader's debate).
If Sinn Fein couldn't make hay down here with all they had going for them in the North then they can forget it.
They didn't, as Adams remarked, get 'squeezed' during the election. Their vote simply didn't show up and their much vaunted 'machine' was proved to exactly what it is - a myth (south of the border, anyway).
It's one thing to take on the SDLP, quite another to take on FF/FG.
And despite the high turnout in the election, it should be remembered that -
(a) Much of their vote here relies on an electorate just a likely to stay in bed than actually go to the polling station.
(b) They failed to recognise that they were dealing with a far more sophisticated electorate in the south than in the north, where economics/quality of life, and not an emotional connection to history or years of discrimination is the key factor in determining one's first preference vote.
Good call.
SF has played all its cards and when the Taoiseach uses his highest profile election broadcast and the starring roles / rining endorsements in it are from a British Prime Minister and a Protestant-Unionist First Minister in Northern Ireland, it's a fair call to say SF hasn't a clue what makes the Republic tick, and the Northern dominated Adams cult has had its chips as far as the South is concerned.
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 07:08:29 PM
To offer the electorate the option.
A quick, not exhaustive, scan of the constituencies showed only three where SF didn't run a candidate - Cork North-West, Limerick West and Kildare South - so your answer strikes me as reasonable.
Quote from: deiseach on June 11, 2007, 10:20:41 PM
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 07:08:29 PM
To offer the electorate the option.
A quick, not exhaustive, scan of the constituencies showed only three where SF didn't run a candidate - Cork North-West, Limerick West and Kildare South - so your answer strikes me as reasonable.
They had one in Kildare South but he/she went AWOL.
As a voter in Dun Laoghaire I must admit I didn't see one leaflet or appearance by the elusive Eoin O'Broin or his, eh, machine.
He had the odd poster in view but where the feck did he canvas unless he stuck to the Ballybrack/Sallynoggin/rough end of Dun Laoghaire area.
So are SF always goin to rely on the John Player Blue/Irish Daily Star faction for votes in ROI? If so then they will soon become very very marginalised - up there with Tomás MacGiolla and Ruairaidh (spell) O'Bradaigh.
Quote from: Donagh on June 11, 2007, 10:43:14 PM
They had one in Kildare South but he/she went AWOL.
Eh? What happened? It wasn't Owen Carron, was it?
Shamrock Shore, as you are no doubt aware all the talk of the SF electoral "machine" is a myth, up there with personation, Armani suits, image consultants, unboundless wads of cash (presumably from bank robberies), leadership cults, etc... all put out at various times by their opponents to explain away their advances. The SF candidates standing for the first time in the general election such as O'Broin or McCaughley in North Kildare are attempting to solidify their core support before making a serious challenge for the locals. As such I'd have expected them to have concentrated their canvassing around the wards they are eying up. The Cumman in both constituencies have around a dozen members each so it's not surprising you getting get him at your door - pity though, he's a nice lad.
I never heard the full story deiseach, but apparently he decided after his name went forward that he wasn't standing afteral and got offside. Understandably there were a few pissed off Kildare peeps after that.
Any word on all the recent defections and resignations from SF people especially in parts of Dublin?
Nah, you the man – tell us all...
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on June 11, 2007, 10:49:48 PM
As a voter in Dun Laoghaire I must admit I didn't see one leaflet or appearance by the elusive Eoin O'Broin or his, eh, machine.
He had the odd poster in view but where the feck did he canvas unless he stuck to the Ballybrack/Sallynoggin/rough end of Dun Laoghaire area.
So are SF always goin to rely on the John Player Blue/Irish Daily Star faction for votes in ROI? If so then they will soon become very very marginalised - up there with Tomás MacGiolla and Ruairaidh (spell) O'Bradaigh.
ahem - 'rough end of DL'? ? ?
sure its all gone rough as feck now (apart from the pavillion!)
:o :(
i voted for sinn fein and that o'broin guy. i gave the only person to call to my door my 2nd pref. his daughter was abit of alright. i am glad he ran as it gave me the opportunity that i had not before of voting sinn fein.
it was a poor result for Sinn fein but not as bad as pd, labour and other independants. it does not mean they are finished. it also does not mean that the people of ireland don't want a united Ireland. that was not their reason for voting. it is obvious it is not a priority but it does not mean if the question was put to the irish people they would vote against. there is no link between the united ireland question and the election - it is a stupid conclusion made by half-wits.
Berite does seem to get a lot of credit for the getting the institutions back and running in N.Ireland but it is a stectch to think that his hand shake with Mr Ian made any differnece considering what he did over the last 10 years.
PHP, when you talk of "the people of Ireland", you seem to mean the people of the Republic of Ireland. Its interesting many people of the South see the Republic as Ireland and the North as another place altogther.
I don't doubt that most people in the South think a united Ireland would be nice, in the way a band new car or a bigger house or a Caribbean cruise would be nice, but it's not something they are that bothered about. As they see it, the whole thing is settled.
It is truly remarkable that an out-going Fianna Fail Taoiseach would feel confident enough to have British Prime Minister and a Protestant First Minister having the starring roles in his most important TV election broadcast, and see this as an enhancing character reference. But, these days, it is and they are.
The relationship between the two islands and two Governments has moved on, SF have cashed their chips, are an irrelevance in the South and, who knows, having now tasted failure, the magic may just mean they have peaked in the North too.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 11:50:39 AM
I don't doubt that most people in the South think a united Ireland would be nice, in the way a band new car or a bigger house or a Caribbean cruise would be nice, but it's not something they are that bothered about. As they see it, the whole thing is settled.
I'd agree with some of that
however it seems that most folks like yourself are 'wishing' that this is true more so it actually being true.
Folks in the south dont really think much about unification (as as there is more parity in the north, I am sure a lot of northern catholics/nationalists even republicans dont think too much about it either these days).
BUT
folks down south will welcome the unification, as long as it doesnt upset the economy. People will happily re-unify and this will come about eventually.
I am sure sf are working away on their future plans ,as when unification does come about (as we all know it will do so- certainly Britain wants rid of the North) they will have a larger share of the vote.
The unionist parties will also have a sizable vote and things will be very interesting in politics then!
Sorry for the bad news, but far from settled, folks here think that re-unification is that little thing that is being put off until a later date and know in the back of their minds that it has to be done - sometime soon!
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 11:50:39 AM
It is truly remarkable that an out-going Fianna Fail Taoiseach would feel confident enough to have British Prime Minister and a Protestant First Minister having the starring roles in his most important TV election broadcast, and see this as an enhancing character reference. But, these days, it is and they are.
why do you find this remarkable? and why do you say
protestant first minister?
GweylTah - yes when i said the people of ireland i meant the Reoublic of ireland but everyone i know down here calls it ireland and N. ireland is refered to as the "the North" or northern bastards etc. nobody has much time for anyone in the north in ireland at the moment.
Quote"I don't doubt that most people in the South think a united Ireland would be nice, in the way a band new car or a bigger house or a Caribbean cruise would be nice, but it's not something they are that bothered about
"
agreed but they would like that car and cruise you mention as they would like a united ireland if it were offered to them.
QuoteAs they see it, the whole thing is settled.
not so much settled as they don't care about it as you said above "they aren't bothered". settled to me means they are happy and hope it stays that way, if they cared this would be true but irish (southern) people don't really care. nothing is settled.
"SF have cashed their chips, are an irrelevance in the South"
irrelvent maybe because no party would talk to them but they have a little under 7% support and there is no predicting how they will perform when the next election happens, and what posistion they will be in then. i don't think we have seen the last of Sinn fein in the ROI and it is stupid to write them off after this election.
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 12:41:53 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 11:50:39 AM
It is truly remarkable that an out-going Fianna Fail Taoiseach would feel confident enough to have British Prime Minister and a Protestant First Minister having the starring roles in his most important TV election broadcast, and see this as an enhancing character reference. But, these days, it is and they are.
why do you find this remarkable? and why do you say protestant first minister?
Is it not remarkable?
I said 'Protestant' speciafically because it was Paisley, the Free P moderator.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 12:45:39 PM
Is it not remarkable?
I said 'Protestant' speciafically because it was Paisley, the Free P moderator.
not in the least bit remarkable. the position is first minister not protestant first minister. any particular reason why you didnt include the british prime ministers religion...
Perhaps because he isn't also the moderator of his own Church.
It's not that difficult to see the differerence, any harder questions?
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 12:54:10 PM
Perhaps because he isn't also the moderator of his own Church.
It's not that difficult to see the differerence, any harder questions?
thats a cop-out, he wasnt in the role of moderator of his own church. i would have had no problem if you had said unionist first minister by the way as that would be some way relevant. most people dont give a flying fcuk about someone religion but dont include yourself in that group...
"I don't doubt that most people in the South think a united Ireland would be nice, in the way a band new car or a bigger house or a Caribbean cruise would be nice, but it's not something they are that bothered about. As they see it, the whole thing is settled"
Thanks for telling me how we think Gweltyah!
I along with many dont see it as settled and want a united Ireland, but I didnt vote Sinn Fein.
But dont presume to tell me I am not that bothered and see it as settled.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 11, 2007, 01:05:50 PM
And as for the South, how ironic that Bertie should judge that his electoral prospects would be much more greatly enhanced by being photographed shaking Paisley's hand by the Boyne waters, than e.g. by shaking Adams's hand in somewhere like Bodenstown!
In a rush to score yet more cheap points, you demonstrate some difficulty in understanding the basic concept of democratic elections. Why would anyone in their right mind think that their electoral prospects would be enhanced by being photographed shaking the hand of a rival party leader; the leader of a party that has made no secret of the fact that it is (was) targetting some of FF's existing seats.
Not ironic in the slighest, simply basic electioneering logic.
Wally.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 12, 2007, 02:00:17 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind think that their electoral prospects would be enhanced by being photographed shaking the hand of a rival party leader;
Why would the leader of a Nationalist party in the Republic of Ireland be photographed before an election shaking hands with a notorious Loyalist bigot and hate figure for Nationalists, either?
My point was that Bertie clearly judged that there was more electoral kudos to be gained by associating himself with the Northern Peace Process than by distancing himself from it.
His manner of doing so was carefully thought out i.e. not only did he avoid one of the most significant "players" in the process (Adams), but he publicly renounced the possibility of forming a coalition with SF, even though it was very unlikely he (Bertie) would gain an overall majority.
Of course Bertie and SF were competing for seats, but both parties are competing for "hearts and minds" and Bertie clearly judged that being seen by the electorate in Adam's company was potentially more damaging than being seen alongside Paisley.
What does that say about the people of the Republic and their view of Adams? Oh, I forgot, they've told us. In the election... ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 12, 2007, 02:20:39 PM
but he publicly renounced the possibility of forming a coalition with SF, .
feck it - I missed that. All I heard was Bertie doing his usual and verbally buttering up all sides just short of FG so that he could use them to vote for him if he so needed them.
Only person at the top level I heard strenuously deny that FF would have any pact with sf was Brian Cowen. He is a man of seemingly straight morals - unlike bertie.
So not for the first time, I think its wishful thinking on your part...but dont let that get in the way of your fantasy world ! :D
[/quote]
What does that say about the Republic's view of Adams? Oh, I forgot, they told him so. In the election... ;)
[/quote]
how many votes did adams get in the election then?
;) :D
Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 12, 2007, 02:30:03 PMhow many votes did adams get in the election then?
;) :D
Not as many as he was hoping for. ;)
Quote from: SammyG on June 12, 2007, 02:35:22 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on June 12, 2007, 02:30:03 PMhow many votes did adams get in the election then?
;) :D
Not as many as he was hoping for. ;)
was he standing for any seats in the election?
:D
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 12, 2007, 02:20:39 PM
Of course Bertie and SF were competing for seats, but both parties are competing for "hearts and minds" and Bertie clearly judged that being seen by the electorate in Adam's company was potentially more damaging than being seen alongside Paisley.
You have answered your question but your interpretation is questionable.
FF do not welcome Sinn Fein in the south, not now, not in the past. Sinn fein votes eat into FF territory. It's a proven fact. Democracy is the politics of adversity.
Post election scenario whereby SF was the only possible option for coalition, who knows what sacrifices Bertie would have done to stabilise the nation.
It's not a negative that SF did not make progress, way too close to FF, too much focus on a shifting sands policy which aimed at getting FF votes. I'd want something different.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 12, 2007, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 12, 2007, 02:00:17 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind think that their electoral prospects would be enhanced by being photographed shaking the hand of a rival party leader;
Why would the leader of a Nationalist party in the Republic of Ireland be photographed before an election shaking hands with a notorious Loyalist bigot and hate figure for Nationalists, either?
My point was that Bertie clearly judged that there was more electoral kudos to be gained by associating himself with the Northern Peace Process than by distancing himself from it.
His manner of doing so was carefully thought out i.e. not only did he avoid one of the most significant "players" in the process (Adams), but he publicly renounced the possibility of forming a coalition with SF, even though it was very unlikely he (Bertie) would gain an overall majority.
Of course Bertie and SF were competing for seats, but both parties are competing for "hearts and minds" and Bertie clearly judged that being seen by the electorate in Adam's company was potentially more damaging than being seen alongside Paisley.
What does that say about the people of the Republic and their view of Adams? Oh, I forgot, they've told us. In the election... ;)
And my point was that you are comparing apples with oranges. If SF had not been standing in the Dail election Bertie would have been tripping over himself for photo opportunites with Adams. The opposite would obviously have applied had the DUP stood in the Free State.
And yes, I know what would have happened if my auntie had balls.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 12, 2007, 02:48:07 PM
And my point was that you are comparing apples with oranges.
If Paisley is the orange (obviously), then presumably Adams is the apple. In which case I'd say he's a crab apple - small, green and very bitter... :o
what a lot of our unionist posters dont seem to get is that in the south people dont equate voting for sf with voting for a ui. i would love to see a ui yet i have never voted sf even though sf has a td in my constituency. last time i looked ff were also a republican party who believed in a ui.. (as are fg by the way)
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 12, 2007, 02:20:39 PM
Quote from: saffron sam2 on June 12, 2007, 02:00:17 PM
Why would anyone in their right mind think that their electoral prospects would be enhanced by being photographed shaking the hand of a rival party leader;
Why would the leader of a Nationalist party in the Republic of Ireland be photographed before an election shaking hands with a notorious Loyalist bigot and hate figure for Nationalists, either?
My point was that Bertie clearly judged that there was more electoral kudos to be gained by associating himself with the Northern Peace Process than by distancing himself from it.
His manner of doing so was carefully thought out i.e. not only did he avoid one of the most significant "players" in the process (Adams), but he publicly renounced the possibility of forming a coalition with SF, even though it was very unlikely he (Bertie) would gain an overall majority.
Of course Bertie and SF were competing for seats, but both parties are competing for "hearts and minds" and Bertie clearly judged that being seen by the electorate in Adam's company was potentially more damaging than being seen alongside Paisley.
What does that say about the people of the Republic and their view of Adams? Oh, I forgot, they've told us. In the election... ;)
How dare you presume to have an opinion about or say how you think those South of the border think - none of your business apparently.
;)
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 03:22:09 PM
what a lot of our unionist posters dont seem to get is that in the south people dont equate voting for sf with voting for a ui. i would love to see a ui yet i have never voted sf even though sf has a td in my constituency. last time i looked ff were also a republican party who believed in a ui.. (as are fg by the way)
I suppose a good question is then what SF voters down south are voting for when they mark their preference - is it as a left wing party with socialist ideals?
I think it's just that they reckon they're fellow Celtic supporters.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 12, 2007, 03:32:43 PM
How dare you presume to have an opinion about or say how you think those South of the border think - none of your business apparently.
;)
No, I just found it odd, being from South of the Border, to read your post stating how I think, when it did not represent my thoughts, or the thoughts of huge numbers down here at all.
Nothing to do with "none of your business".
I have my own opinions on the North, but wouldnt be so arrogant to tell Northerners how they think! ::)
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 03:22:09 PM
what a lot of our unionist posters dont seem to get is that in the south people dont equate voting for sf with voting for a ui. i would love to see a ui yet i have never voted sf even though sf has a td in my constituency. last time i looked ff were also a republican party who believed in a ui.. (as are fg by the way)
Fair point, MK. Perhaps's SF's problem when electioneering in the South is, however, that they don't
offer much more* than a UI to the electorate, either.
Of course, seeing as the SF leadership is mostly drawn from the same territory as (this Board's) Unionist posters, perhaps that's why they make the same mistake!
* - I daresay they've got some economic policies, too, if they can find the fag packet they wrote them down on. Then again, perhaps it's better if the electorate in the South don't get to see them... :D
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
" l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts. " Yeah, I think I'll do the same with E.G. I mean, fair enough even a unionist can make a relevant point from time to time, but that oaf is beyond patience.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 12, 2007, 07:55:49 PM
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
" l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts. " Yeah, I think I'll do the same with E.G. I mean, fair enough even a unionist can make a relevant point from time to time, but that oaf is beyond patience.
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated...
ad nauseam. There's a cabal on this board who'd be better off checking themselves into the
Obsessive Compulsive Disorder clinic, and quickly, i.e.,those who believe that if they assert something loud enough and often enough it'll come true. An excellent ruse to turn people right off what you write off.
My point exactly , reasoned argument and open debate are to be welcomed but when its the same old hackneyed line, hammered home again and again, well...its hard to read never mind reply to!
Of course, nothing stopping me going over to OWC and doing the same thing there but...lifes too short.
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
that should solve your problem then..
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated... ad nauseam.
its still free speech ffs..
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 08:20:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated... ad nauseam.
its still free speech ffs..
And, your point is? All I'm saying there is that it washes right over eventually, and defeats the purpose of posting something to have it read in the first place (presuming that's the intention).
The point being that if you write a post then you would reasonably expect others to read it, maybe even enter a debate on the subject. The opposite is happening...not all that Magick then!
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
Can you give us a few examples of this sectarianism or some of the puerile rants?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:22:30 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 08:20:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated... ad nauseam.
its still free speech ffs..
And, your point is? All I'm saying there is that it washes right over eventually, and defeats the purpose of posting something to have it read in the first place (presuming that's the intention).
my point is your either for free speech (ad nauseam) or not, its a binary thing...
With the examples again....
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 09:07:02 PM
With the examples again....
With the ridiculous, unture allegations again....
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
I agree, they should all piss off and shut up - or else.
GAA Board for All !
OK lets leave SF alone, is it not the Greens who are now about become the new symbol of a morally corrupt Ireland.
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 08:59:11 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:22:30 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on June 12, 2007, 08:20:57 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated... ad nauseam.
its still free speech ffs..
And, your point is? All I'm saying there is that it washes right over eventually, and defeats the purpose of posting something to have it read in the first place (presuming that's the intention).
my point is your either for free speech (ad nauseam) or not, its a binary thing...
Then your point completely misses
the point: repetition, repetition, repetition, repetition, etc., (i.e., of the same point/assertion/accusation...) constitutes little more than noise after a short while, and as such it will not contribute to any worthwhile discussion or debate. Free speech does
not involve repeating the same speech
verbatim, and noise is not free speech, there are areas of grey.
Quote from: Fishead_Sam on June 12, 2007, 10:00:31 PM
OK lets leave SF alone, is it not the Greens who are now about become the new symbol of a morally corrupt Ireland.
:D
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
I stopped reading political posts on here which involved Evil Genius many months ago. He's a bit like a dung beetle. He tends to deal in crap, often rolling balls of it and finally hiding himself somewhere in it. His posts are punctuated with cheap point-scoring dressed up in pitiful armour usually involving a mass of asterisks and lame sectarian humour. There are actually some witty and interesting posters on here from a relatively different background to the majority of GAABOARD posters who are worth reading. Those who give EG the time of day just add to the dungheap.
Quote from: SuperMac on June 12, 2007, 07:55:49 PM
" l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts. " Yeah, I think I'll do the same with E.G. I mean, fair enough even a unionist can make a relevant point from time to time, but that oaf is beyond patience.
"...even a unionist..."?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on June 12, 2007, 08:03:39 PM
Quote from: SuperMac on June 12, 2007, 07:55:49 PM
Quote from: Fluffy Che on June 12, 2007, 07:46:36 PM
The small but virulent loyalist/unionist cabal that stalk this board are getting quite tiring. Constant bitter attacks on S.F. and personal abuse reserved for S.F. leadership, repetition of the same old gombeen lies and cliche. l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts.
Fact-this board is open to all and l find much of it quite entertaining , educational even.
l question the motives of OWCers spending more time here than on their own site!
l have visited OWC and find most of the rants there puerile esp. the thread about schoolgirls..there is also a sectarian element when the political arena is entered.
We've had years of that crap, so do us all a favour and keep the hatred to your own wee dark corner.
" l'm bored, have stopped reading a lot of their posts. " Yeah, I think I'll do the same with E.G. I mean, fair enough even a unionist can make a relevant point from time to time, but that oaf is beyond patience.
Hear, hear! All for free speech, but not repeated, and repeated, and repeated... ad nauseam. There's a cabal on this board who'd be better off checking themselves into the Obsessive Compulsive Disorder clinic, and quickly, i.e.,those who believe that if they assert something loud enough and often enough it'll come true. An excellent ruse to turn people right off what you write off.
thing is this is the type of behaviour they are used to.
The old routine was to talk AT the nationalist republican second class, dictate to them just 'what to say', 'what to think' and also TELL them what the situation was - rather than the reality of any situation.
the ethos still remains and you can see it on here in a lot of the posts. But of course decades of experience has them well schooled in dressing it up and portraying themselves as the victims.
Thing is, we are no longer the poor second class citizens who are MADE listen to them and adhere to their rulings. NI is a far better place and will become a decent re-united country (when the time and economic conditions are right for the south to want this to happen).
Until then, just watch the language and veiled bully boy tatics these folks use.
Its highly amusing!
Very good LynchBoy.
Of course, come the day of Irish unity, the SDLP will probably merge into one of the existing parties, SF will be an irrelvance, and the former Unionist parties as a bloc will probably hold the effective balance of power in Irish politics forever and a day. (You wouldnt want them feeling like a victimised minority now, would you - at just under 20% of the island's population, they could be bothersome if they're not properly cherished.). ;)
Be careful what you wish for.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 13, 2007, 08:50:43 PM
Unionist - at just under 20% of the island's population, they could be bothersome
Only "Could" be bothersom - that would be a great advance on what they've been for the last 400 years :)
Quote from: ONeill link=topic=3165.msg101595#msg101595
He's a bit like a dung beetle. He tends to deal in crap, often rolling balls of it and finally hiding himself somewhere in it.
/quote]
sorry eg, but i have to say the cut of this post made me laugh :D
Quote from: nifan on June 14, 2007, 01:51:40 AM
Quote from: ONeill link=topic=3165.msg101595#msg101595
He's a bit like a dung beetle. He tends to deal in crap, often rolling balls of it and finally hiding himself somewhere in it.
/quote]
sorry eg, but i have to say the cut of this post made me laugh :D
had to laugh at that ;D. i will say although he is repeatitive he makes some good points unlike that twat gweyltah who makes no effort whatsoever...
Quote from: nifan on June 14, 2007, 01:51:40 AM
Quote from: ONeill link=topic=3165.msg101595#msg101595
He's a bit like a dung beetle. He tends to deal in crap, often rolling balls of it and finally hiding himself somewhere in it.
/quote]
sorry eg, but i have to say the cut of this post made me laugh :D
All Hail the Dung Beetle! It has an extraordinary ability to see through and deal with the crap that other creatures deposit. In fact, were it not for the humble beetle, everyone else would be up to their knees in their own shit!
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2003/07/07/MN111325.DTL
"But dung beetles aren't as unsophisticated as they look: They possess the entomological version of a global-positioning satellite system"
"Unaided human eyes can't see those polarization patterns. By contrast, dung beetles dearly depend on those same patterns for late-night foraging. Like broad features on a map, those polarization patterns allow the beetles to keep their bearing and to continue moving in a straight line rather than wandering hopelessly in circles"
"Her team's discovery probably will please those entomology buffs who believe that dung beetles deserve more respect"
All WORSHIP the Dung (or Scarab) Beetle:
Deification of the scarab beetle is still seen in Egypt today. Amon-Ra, the creator and king of the gods, had the head of a beetle. "Ra, the Sole Creator was visible to the people of Egypt as the disc of the sun, but they knew him in many other forms. He could appear as a crowned man, a falcon or a man with a falcon's head and, as the scarab beetle pushes a round ball of dung in front of it, the Egyptians pictured Ra as a scarab pushing the sun across the sky." (Geraldine Harris, Gods & Pharaohs from Egyptian Mythology, p. 24).
Quoteat just under 20% of the island's population, they could be bothersome if they're not properly cherished.
Interesting to see how FF would manage that one but manage it they would. A permanent DUP/FF coalition!! mcDowell wouldnt seem so bad then...
Quoteat just under 20% of the island's population, they could be bothersome if they're not properly cherished.
Surely they would cease to be Unionists in a United Ireland????
And wouldn't they be more likely to join/merge/align themselves with Fine Gael or the PD's?
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 14, 2007, 12:55:03 PM
Quoteat just under 20% of the island's population, they could be bothersome if they're not properly cherished.
Surely they would cease to be Unionists in a United Ireland????
And wouldn't they be more likely to join/merge/align themselves with Fine Gael or the PD's?
Perhaps
Reunionists? ;)
Hope Gerry Adams MP enjoys his day visiting the Dail today as the country elects its new Taoiseach - with the Briitsh MP sitting in the strangers gallery.
;D
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 02:33:21 PM
Hope Gerry Adams MP enjoys his day visiting the Dail today as the country elects its new Taoiseach - with the Briitsh MP sitting in the strangers gallery.
;D
Jesus, give it up mandear, your like a broken record player ffs!
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 14, 2007, 02:48:15 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 02:33:21 PM
Hope Gerry Adams MP enjoys his day visiting the Dail today as the country elects its new Taoiseach - with the Briitsh MP sitting in the strangers gallery.
;D
Jesus, give it up mandear, your like a broken record player ffs!
We're feeding her fix by responding GDA, though it's more pity I feel now myself when I see such pathetic attempts to be pithy.
Perhaps if Adams wants to feel more a part of things rather than being a redundant onlooker, he could resign his British seat and seek election for where his main holiday home is?
The risk, of course, is that the people of Donegal might see through the guff more easily than 'think what your told' sheep in west Belfast.
You managed to insult the intelligence of the entire of West Belfast there Gweltyah.
I suppose you will somehow manage to justify that?
Whatever about EG or Sammy, at least they make their arguments with a degree of manners, unlike yourself.
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 14, 2007, 04:40:19 PM
You managed to insult the intelligence of the entire of West Belfast there Gweltyah.
I suppose you will somehow manage to justify that?
Whatever about EG or Sammy, at least they make their arguments with a degree of manners, unlike yourself.
We seem to have another precious, humourless poster in our midst. Sorry, dear.
Gweltyah, I like a good laugh as well as anyone, but lets not bullshit here.
You dish out insults to everyone in West Belfast and then hide under the veil of "humour".
Do you honestly beleive that people find it funny when you call the people of West Belfast, who you quite clearly have a strong dislike for, "think what your told, sheep".
You f**king nob (that statement is not meant as a joke by the way)
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
Perhaps if Adams wants to feel more a part of things rather than being a redundant onlooker, he could resign his British seat and seek election for where his main holiday home is?
The risk, of course, is that the people of Donegal might see through the guff more easily than 'think what your told' sheep in west Belfast.
you are one intolerable cnut... :D if i had to put up with the like of you i'd be voting sinn fein too.
Quote from: magickingdom on June 14, 2007, 08:55:31 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
Perhaps if Adams wants to feel more a part of things rather than being a redundant onlooker, he could resign his British seat and seek election for where his main holiday home is?
The risk, of course, is that the people of Donegal might see through the guff more easily than 'think what your told' sheep in west Belfast.
you are one intolerable cnut... :D if i had to put up with the like of you i'd be voting sinn fein too.
Ha ha!!! just about sums it up perfectly! Nice one Kingdom
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 14, 2007, 06:23:32 PM
Gweltyah, I like a good laugh as well as anyone, but lets not bullshit here.
You dish out insults to everyone in West Belfast and then hide under the veil of "humour".
Do you honestly beleive that people find it funny when you call the people of West Belfast, who you quite clearly have a strong dislike for, "think what your told, sheep".
You f**king nob (that statement is not meant as a joke by the way)
Twaddle ... and the mask slips.
Quote from: magickingdom on June 14, 2007, 08:55:31 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
Perhaps if Adams wants to feel more a part of things rather than being a redundant onlooker, he could resign his British seat and seek election for where his main holiday home is?
The risk, of course, is that the people of Donegal might see through the guff more easily than 'think what your told' sheep in west Belfast.
you are one intolerable cnut... :D if i had to put up with the like of you i'd be voting sinn fein too.
The thing I can't tolerate is intolerance, there's a hell-of-a-lot-of-it here, dog's abuse spewed from the gutter.
I'll rise above it.
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 09:46:33 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on June 14, 2007, 08:55:31 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 03:39:47 PM
Perhaps if Adams wants to feel more a part of things rather than being a redundant onlooker, he could resign his British seat and seek election for where his main holiday home is?
The risk, of course, is that the people of Donegal might see through the guff more easily than 'think what your told' sheep in west Belfast.
you are one intolerable cnut... :D if i had to put up with the like of you i'd be voting sinn fein too.
The thing I can't tolerate is intolerance, there's a hell-of-a-lot-of-it here, dog's abuse spewed from the gutter.
I'll rise above it.
Irony meter reading off the scale.
gweyltah has someone burned your favorite blue shirt,or maybe it's just the time of the month.
To get back on track, here's an interesting assessment form SF in Dublin
Five years ago, in the aftermath of the 2002 General Election, I pointed out in this paper that we had contested that election with a manifesto that made little or no economic sense. Our spending commitments vastly outweighed our revenue generating proposals and the reality was that while our manifesto was a radical document in itself, the numbers did not add up and it was not a credible proposal for government.
Five years on, and we find ourselves in the same position.
The difference is that in this election, the party had five years of experience in Leinster House with a full complement of policy workers and a number of people with the skills and experience to draft a coherent, costed, set of socialist economic positions that were based within the existing economic context. We simply decided not to contest the election on them.
Sinn Féin proposed the most sweeping, wide-ranging and exhaustive spending commitments of any political party on this island. Our spending plans for health and housing in particular dwarfed the other parties. Our proposals to take back under democratic control Aer Lingus, and possibly Eircom, would have cost the guts of several billion euros. We proposed substantial increases in social welfare payments in an effort to achieve the very real objective of eliminating poverty in Ireland.
There is nothing wrong with these proposals. They are radical ideas that would make a real and substantial difference in the lives of every person on this island. But they cost money.
Sinn Féin's position during the election was that we could pay for the all of our extra spending out of the existing tax take. The foolishness of this position can be seen in the announcement last week from the Department of Finance that for the first time in four years the tax take is falling below expectations.
The housing market, a vital part of an economy, overly dependent on the construction industry, is in decline with AIB now predicting a 2% fall in house prices this year. Inflation is consistently running at over 5% and there is increasing pressure from public sector workers like the nurses for greater pay increases to meet the rising cost of living.
None of this is a revelation. A downturn in economic growth in the 26 Counties has been on the cards for 18 months and more. Many of the economic proposals of our political opponents were described by commentators as being unduly optimistic in suggesting growth rates of over 4% per annum, a fraction of what would be needed to meet our proposals.
It didn't have to be this way. Sinn Féin's position prior to the election was straight-forward. We argued that the only way to increase spending to the levels we were proposing, was to increase taxes on certain wealthy sections of Irish society while maintaining, and even reducing, the tax burden on ordinary workers. We could not increase spending, we argued, without finding the money to pay for it.
We laid out these proposals in a number of pre-budget submissions, most recently in December 2006, and in policy documents on enterprise and on housing. These proposals were outlined, analysed and discussed in An Phoblacht, as well as at party policy conferences. They were further discussed and subsequently endorsed by the membership at the Ard Fheis.
To summarily announce, as senior party figures did, that those policies no longer exist without identifying alternate sources of funding or consulting with the party's members is both irresponsible and overrides the party's decision making structures. Any notion that we would benefit electorally from this strategy should now be dismissed for the nonsense that it always was.
This left us with the situation where Sinn Féin candidates and activists found themselves dealing on the doorsteps with the repercussions of sudden, unexpected policy changes announced in the media. Party representatives on the media found themselves defending economic positions that made little or no sense and in many cases, that they did not believe themselves.
Rather than presenting a coherent economic analysis to challenge the right-wing consensus on economics, placing Sinn Féin as a genuine alternative to disenchanted voters, we chose not to present any serious analysis at all, exposing the party's positions on a range of subjects to increasing ridicule from the media and our political opponents as the campaign wore on.
Mícheál MacDonncha argued two weeks ago that the party was right not to rule out going into coalition with Fianna Fáil ahead of the election. While not as convinced of that as he is, I certainly believe he is right when he suggests we took this strategy too far.
There is a difference between not ruling another party out as a possible coalition partner, and the position that Sinn Féin adopted during the election campaign of an almost embarrassing eagerness to get into government regardless of cost. As Fianna Fáil's Minister Dermot Ahern not altogether inaccurately observed during the campaign, the best way to know in advance which Sinn Féin policy would be dropped next was for Fianna Fáil to rule out coalition with us on those grounds.
Why would voters critical of Fianna Fáil vote for a party that was demonstrating every day that it was doing all it could to make itself attractive to that party? Why would people voting for change give a preference to a party repeatedly underlining its desire to help maintain the status quo by putting Fianna Fáil back in government? Why would they vote for a party that was willing to drop longstanding economic policies in its eagerness to be considered acceptable?
We failed to weather the storm, because we failed to give people a reason to vote for us. We sought to seize our own piece of ground in the ideological wasteland that is the over-crowded centre in Irish politics. We appeared incoherent and opportunistic in shedding policies at what, in the beginning of the campaign, felt like a daily basis.
That the result was not worse for us, that we increased votes in numerous constituencies, is down solely to the efforts of our candidates, activists and supporters on the ground who performed magnificently.
Our opponents in the media have been eager to cast this electoral setback as a disaster of unprecedented scale, an end once and for all of the threat posed by Sinn Féin to the established political and economic interests dominant in Ireland.
As boxes opened across the country that Friday last month, more than one republican reflected that it was 15 years to the day since unionist paramilitaries, acting in collusion with British intelligence, murdered Sinn Féin councillor Eddie Fullerton.
That same year, Gerry Adams lost Sinn Féin's single Westminster seat in a General Election and we were still five years from our first TD in this phase of the struggle.
We have had bad days before. We have had much worse days. We will have them again.
On each occasion, our opponents confidently predicted our demise and argued that we could not survive, that the threat posed by Sinn Féin had evaporated. And on each occasion, our members, supporters, activists and elected representatives proved them wrong.
If we learn the lessons of the 2007 General Election, we will do so again. We will confound our critics, re-organise our party and return again to the task set for us many generations ago, the establishment of an independent, democratic, socialist republic in Ireland.
• Justin Moran is a member of Sinn Féin in Dublin's South West Inner City and is a former Chairperson of Dublin Sinn Féin
QuoteI'll rise above it.
Now this I have to see.
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 14, 2007, 06:23:32 PM
Gweltyah, I like a good laugh as well as anyone, but lets not bullshit here.
You dish out insults to everyone in West Belfast and then hide under the veil of "humour".
Do you honestly beleive that people find it funny when you call the people of West Belfast, who you quite clearly have a strong dislike for, "think what your told, sheep".
You f**king nob (that statement is not meant as a joke by the way)
Had GweylTah posted that the people of, say, North Antrim were "think what your told, sheep" (i.e. for consistently voting in Paisley), would this have provoked the same outrage in you?
[Personally, I have always subscribed to the view that "people get the politicians they deserve" :o]
Quote from: Sky Blue on June 15, 2007, 09:39:50 AM
To get back on track, here's an interesting assessment form SF in Dublin
Five years ago, in the aftermath of the 2002 General Election, I pointed out in this paper that...
Rather than presenting a coherent economic analysis to challenge the right-wing consensus on economics, placing Sinn Féin as a genuine alternative to disenchanted voters,
...the establishment of an independent, democratic, socialist republic in Ireland.
• Justin Moran is a member of Sinn Féin in Dublin's South West Inner City and is a former Chairperson of Dublin Sinn Féin
Interesting and insightful analysis of SF's position in the Republic. However, if you take the crux of his argument (highlighted), rather than providing a solution to their problem, it actually underpins it (imo).
That is, if they scrabble around in the centre, they'll get nowhere against the mainstream parties. However, if they move to the left, unless there is a corresponding widespread and sustained shift to the left amongst the electorate (unlikely, imo), then SF will never be more than a niche party in the Republic, for whom the best electoral outcome is as a junior partner in a coalition dominated by one or more of the large, "Establishment" parties.
Not only that, but in order successfully to re-position themselves, they will need to transform themselves from a party which is still seen by many in the Republic as a Northern dominated "Brits-Out/End Partition Party", with (vague) hard-left Economic policies tacked on, to a modern, progressive Left-Wing Socialist Party, with its headquarters in Dublin (the nation's capital and by far the largest centre of population). Which, of course, should be achievable, but only so long as the present Leadership is willing/able to accommodate this (I wouldn't hold my breath on that one!)
And none of this addresses the problem they face in NI, where their history and policies mean that they are limited to achieving a maximum of 45% of the vote. Worse still, the present political settlement means that whilst their "minority" status cannot be used to deny them a place in Government, it also effectively
entrenches that minority status. And that's all before we even get to the fact that they are being entrenched in an establishment which not merely reflects partition, but would appear in the opinion of many, actively to reinforce it!
I must say, my heart bleeds for their predicament... ::)
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 14, 2007, 06:23:32 PM
Gweltyah, I like a good laugh as well as anyone, but lets not bullshit here.
You dish out insults to everyone in West Belfast and then hide under the veil of "humour".
Do you honestly beleive that people find it funny when you call the people of West Belfast, who you quite clearly have a strong dislike for, "think what your told, sheep".
You f**king nob (that statement is not meant as a joke by the way)
Twaddle ... and the mask slips.
The "mask" ?????
I've always maintained that you were a f**king nob :D :D :D :D
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 15, 2007, 11:23:25 AM
Quote from: GweylTah on June 14, 2007, 09:44:54 PM
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 14, 2007, 06:23:32 PM
Gweltyah, I like a good laugh as well as anyone, but lets not bullshit here.
You dish out insults to everyone in West Belfast and then hide under the veil of "humour".
Do you honestly beleive that people find it funny when you call the people of West Belfast, who you quite clearly have a strong dislike for, "think what your told, sheep".
You f**king nob (that statement is not meant as a joke by the way)
Twaddle ... and the mask slips.
The "mask" ?????
I've always maintained that you were a f**king nob :D :D :D :D
You may have been consistent in your personal abuse towards other posters. Similarly, you may be consistent in your defence of the integrity and character of the people of West Belfast.
However, you have not responded to my query as to whether you would find my labelling of the people of, say, North Antrim as "sheep-like"
equally offensive.
Or do you only get offended when one particular group of your fellow Irish people is maligned? You know, "sauce for the goose" and all that. ::)
Quote from: Sky Blue on June 15, 2007, 09:39:50 AM
If we learn the lessons of the 2007 General Election, we will do so again. We will confound our critics, re-organise our party and return again to the task set for us many generations ago, the establishment of an independent, democratic, socialist republic in Ireland.
• Justin Moran is a member of Sinn Féin in Dublin's South West Inner City and is a former Chairperson of Dublin Sinn Féin
This is completely and utterly detached from reality - no wonder they are rejected in the Republic and treated like leppers by everyone else. It's like the sort of language you used to hear from Militant, Hatton, Eric Heffer and the like in Liverpool.
If their voters in the North weren't so easily fooled into swallowing this guff - and the Unity 2016 and counting nonsense - they would surely do the same.
SF is an out-of-touch rabble in the South and a personality-led, pin a tricolour on a donkey cult in the North, as partitionist as could be.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 15, 2007, 11:37:40 AM
However, you have not responded to my query as to whether you would find my labelling of the people of, say, North Antrim as "sheep-like" equally offensive.
Or do you only get offended when one particular group of your fellow Irish people is maligned? You know, "sauce for the goose" and all that. ::)
I am not personally offended as I am not from West Belfast. I was merely pointing out how Gweltyah could insult the entire of West Belfast for democratically electing their representatives, purely because he himself doesnt like them.
I would say the same if he made similar comments re North Antrim people (and I do not like Paisley), but he is hardly going to do that now is he ::)
Speaking of "sauce for the goose" and all that, I note you felt the need to respond to my post rather than reply to Gweltyahs post insulting the entire voting population of West Belfast.
Kind of ironic ::)
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 15, 2007, 02:19:40 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 15, 2007, 11:37:40 AM
However, you have not responded to my query as to whether you would find my labelling of the people of, say, North Antrim as "sheep-like" equally offensive.
Or do you only get offended when one particular group of your fellow Irish people is maligned? You know, "sauce for the goose" and all that. ::)
I am not personally offended as I am not from West Belfast. I was merely pointing out how Gweltyah could insult the entire of West Belfast for democratically electing their representatives, purely because he himself doesnt like them.
I would say the same if he made similar comments re North Antrim people (and I do not like Paisley), but he is hardly going to do that now is he ::)
Speaking of "sauce for the goose" and all that, I note you felt the need to respond to my post rather than reply to Gweltyahs post insulting the entire voting population of West Belfast.
Kind of ironic ::)
No irony at all. I personally feel most voters in NI are sheep-like, especially those in Constituencies like North Antrim and West Belfast which have consistently displayed the same voting pattern for the last 20 years+
Therefore, I would not object singularly to you slagging off N.Antrim nor GweylTah doing likewise for W.Belfast.
The fact is, I cannot see any problem in anyone indulging in mild banter/investive of that nature - it's an Internet Message Board, ffs, hardly a place for people who get offended over something and nothing.
(Though on reflection, perhaps an apology to the Ovine population of NI might be in order... ;))
Again here we go, insulting the Nationalist population in West Belfast can be dismissed as "mild banter".
Telling an entire population of an area that they "think what they are told" is ok in your view.
You cant insult people then if anyone complains tell them it was a joke, or said tongue in cheek.
Voting patterns arent a factor, just because they vote for the same people consistantly doesnt mean they were told to.
Funny how you leapt to the conclusion that I wouldnt remark if this were said about the North Antrim folk.
What made you suggest that?
We arent as one sided as you might think, or I suggest as you are, which is obvious as you will even defend Gwelyah!
Quote from: his holiness nb on June 15, 2007, 04:30:56 PM
Again here we go, insulting the Nationalist population in West Belfast can be dismissed as "mild banter".
Telling an entire population of an area that they "think what they are told" is ok in your view.
You cant insult people then if anyone complains tell them it was a joke, or said tongue in cheek.
Voting patterns arent a factor, just because they vote for the same people consistantly doesnt mean they were told to.
Funny how you leapt to the conclusion that I wouldnt remark if this were said about the North Antrim folk.
What made you suggest that?
We arent as one sided as you might think, or I suggest as you are, which is obvious as you will even defend Gwelyah!
Oh ffs! I happen to believe, based on the evidence of every Election I can ever remember, that the people of NI are more "sheep-like" than most other places, since if you were to pin a Tricolour/Union Jack (delete as appropriate) on a Donkey, half of them would vote for it - if for no other reason than to keep the other donkey out!
I'll be buggered if I'm going to apologise for thinking that, or expressing it as my opinion on a Message Board. And if you can't live with that, then tough - there's a whole sight worse expressed every single day, including on this very Board.
As for my defending GweylTah for a remark about West Belfast: this thread is related to Sinn Fein, so it's hardly exceptional that someone should express a (mild) comment about the West Belfast Constituency of the Sinn Fein leader.
If the topic in question were the DUP, and GweylTah/anyone had compared Paisley's constituents to sheep, I wouldn't have passed the slightest remark (other, perhaps, than to agree).
Anyhow, having allowed myself to be sidetracked temporarily, I have actually posted a couple of times on the subject of this thread - namely SF's prospects in the Republic. Do you have any response to those posts, or are you too busy going out of your way to be offended on behalf of people who are quite capable of speaking up for themselves?
Thats about 3 times you suggested I was offended.
I have already said this, please pay attention.
I AM NOT OFFENDED BY THIS, how could I be as I am not from West Belfast????
My whole point is that Gweltyah was being a p***k with that comment.
Thats all!
Regarding the topic of discussion, I havent commented as its a stupid argument.
SF are not finished in the Republic. They will be around for years to come, as a small minority party yes, but when were they last anything else :-\
I really dont see the need to go into any more detail on this, its that simple.
Happy?