I see Michael Gove has written to Ulster Rugby asking them to reconsider their relationship with Kingspan in light of their alleged role in the Grenfell fire. I think it's fair to say that some of the directors, with their 'alpha male' attitude to safety standards, don't appear to have acquitted themselves too well, but given the suggestion that their products accounted for only 5% of the insulation in the tower block and were allegedly used without their knowledge and, most importantly, that the inquiry is still ongoing, are they being lined up to be the scapegoat for someone else's failures?
End of the day building regulations would have had to sign of on the project. They break my heart on minor things during projects so if a material mets the current fire rating which tend to be class O over here for paint, ceiling tiles etc, in England BC approve materials to whatever regulations were current, so either they didn't bother to check or the regulations are not up to standard, which should have been, given this cladding was cause of a fire in either Asia or Australia
I know Kingspan are getting some flack on this and not knowing enough about it but did they advertise this cladding product as being flame retardant and it wasn't or did someone use it for an inappropriate use?
If you've ever burned some of the kingspan cavity insulation you'd know if burns like a roman candle.
Sounds like they're trying to lob the blame on the Paddies..
This twitter thread gives more context on the Kingspan/ Grenfell back story https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1473563854210834433
Quote from: Newbridge Exile on December 22, 2021, 12:14:26 PM
This twitter thread gives more context on the Kingspan/ Grenfell back story https://twitter.com/JP_Biz/status/1473563854210834433
Not a good read for Kingspan, Arconic or the regulatory bodies in GB if they were that easy duped by dishonest testing and reporting of said testing.
If you follow that twitter thread it leads to this article
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/how-the-products-used-in-grenfell-towers-cladding-system-were-tested-and-sold-70011
The Kingspan section is about 2/3 of the way down.
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 02:46:29 PM
If you follow that twitter thread it leads to this article
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/how-the-products-used-in-grenfell-towers-cladding-system-were-tested-and-sold-70011
The Kingspan section is about 2/3 of the way down.
Some shameful stuff going on there.
However, Gove should first and foremost make it his business to pass laws that stop this sort of stuff. Then the publicity from prosecution can inform the sports bodies. Instead we have a laissez faire approach by the public authorities.
Quote from: armaghniac on December 22, 2021, 04:42:20 PM
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 02:46:29 PM
If you follow that twitter thread it leads to this article
https://www.insidehousing.co.uk/insight/insight/how-the-products-used-in-grenfell-towers-cladding-system-were-tested-and-sold-70011
The Kingspan section is about 2/3 of the way down.
Some shameful stuff going on there.
However, Gove should first and foremost make it his business to pass laws that stop this sort of stuff. Then the publicity from prosecution can inform the sports bodies. Instead we have a laissez faire approach by the public authorities.
Yeah, doesn't make good reading for the Cavan men at all.
In saying that, Michael f**king Gove is some twat to be writing a letter to anyone asking them to take some sort of moral stance.
As if he gives a flying monkeys about any of the Grenfell victims.
The Michael Gove and the Conservatives are the ones responsible for the low regulation/leave it to the market approach that leads to things like Greenfell happening.
Exactly - and then they will take no responsibility for it.
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 06:08:39 PM
The Michael Gove and the Conservatives are the ones responsible for the low regulation/leave it to the market approach that leads to things like Greenfell happening.
Gove has a brass neck on him but I dont think you can blame the Tories for some of the stuff in that Twitter feed.
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 06:08:39 PM
The Michael Gove and the Conservatives are the ones responsible for the low regulation/leave it to the market approach that leads to things like Greenfell happening.
I don't think the Tories can be blamed much here. Maybe they are on the hook for a bit of lax enforcement.
But there WERE regulations and laws in place that should have prevented this kind of thing happening.
I could be wrong, but if that twitter feed is to be believed, the guys in Kingspan set out to do all in their power to circumvent those laws and regulations.
Quote from: Franko on December 22, 2021, 08:12:49 PM
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 06:08:39 PM
The Michael Gove and the Conservatives are the ones responsible for the low regulation/leave it to the market approach that leads to things like Greenfell happening.
I don't think the Tories can be blamed much here. Maybe they are on the hook for a bit of lax enforcement.
But there WERE regulations and laws in place that should have prevented this kind of thing happening.
I could be wrong, but if that twitter feed is to be believed, the guys in Kingspan set out to do all in their power to circumvent the law and regulations that were in place.
The regulations were lax, it seemed that the company themselves could test configuration, describe that configuration differently than it was actually tested and then get certification for a range of other more dangerous configurations.
And there was a touch of Brexit about these companies to get away with stuff they wouldn't in other European countries. There needs to be clear flow of information on such matters, it shouldn't need a fire in Britain to get action in Britain if there has been a fire elsewhere that illustrated the problems.
Quote from: armaghniac on December 22, 2021, 09:17:26 PM
Quote from: Franko on December 22, 2021, 08:12:49 PM
Quote from: dec on December 22, 2021, 06:08:39 PM
The Michael Gove and the Conservatives are the ones responsible for the low regulation/leave it to the market approach that leads to things like Greenfell happening.
I don't think the Tories can be blamed much here. Maybe they are on the hook for a bit of lax enforcement.
But there WERE regulations and laws in place that should have prevented this kind of thing happening.
I could be wrong, but if that twitter feed is to be believed, the guys in Kingspan set out to do all in their power to circumvent the law and regulations that were in place.
The regulations were lax, it seemed that the company themselves could test configuration, describe that configuration differently than it was actually tested and then get certification for a range of other more dangerous configurations.
And there was a touch of Brexit about these companies to get away with stuff they wouldn't in other European countries. There needs to be clear flow of information on such matters, it shouldn't need a fire in Britain to get action in Britain if there has been a fire elsewhere that illustrated the problems.
Again, what you are describing is lax
enforcement of regulations.
The regulations themselves, if adhered to, would have prevented this.
...in 2006, Kingspan changed the way it made K15, introducing a new chemical process which added perforations to the foil facing of the product and increased the quantity of a 'blowing agent' held within it.
When it retested this insulation as part of a new system in 2007, it failed drastically. The test was described in an internal Kingspan document as a "raging inferno", which said the insulation was "burning on its own steam" after the flame had been extinguished. Kingspan kept this result secret, even from other arms of its own business, and continued to sell the insulation for use on high rises.
....Kingspan keep repeating that the product... is suitable for use in buildings over 18m. What they fail to say is that it is suitable only in the configuration tested," wrote Greg Sinclair, a consultant at the firm.
When the contractor came back to Kingspan with a further query as a result, Mr Heath sent an internal email to two colleagues saying: "Wintech can go f*ck themselves and if they are not careful we will sue the arse of them.
..... The inquiry was shown a series of text messages from later in 2016 sent between Mr Chalmers and another Kingspan employee referencing K15 in which Mr Chalmers said: "doesnt [sic] actually get class 0 when we test the whole product tho LOL!"
"WHAT we lied?" the other employee wrote.
"yeahhhh tested K15 as a whole – got class 1 [an inferior standard] wheyy lol," responded Mr Chalmers.
That is about more than regulations and adhering to them. That is knowingly and wilfully endangering life. There should be gaol time, for people like Phil Heath, Aaron Chalmers, etc, in Kingspan and similar in Arconic.
Cladding at low level is expected to be classification 0.
Quote from: LeoMc on December 22, 2021, 10:02:30 PM
...in 2006, Kingspan changed the way it made K15, introducing a new chemical process which added perforations to the foil facing of the product and increased the quantity of a 'blowing agent' held within it.
When it retested this insulation as part of a new system in 2007, it failed drastically. The test was described in an internal Kingspan document as a "raging inferno", which said the insulation was "burning on its own steam" after the flame had been extinguished. Kingspan kept this result secret, even from other arms of its own business, and continued to sell the insulation for use on high rises.
....Kingspan keep repeating that the product... is suitable for use in buildings over 18m. What they fail to say is that it is suitable only in the configuration tested," wrote Greg Sinclair, a consultant at the firm.
When the contractor came back to Kingspan with a further query as a result, Mr Heath sent an internal email to two colleagues saying: "Wintech can go f*ck themselves and if they are not careful we will sue the arse of them.
..... The inquiry was shown a series of text messages from later in 2016 sent between Mr Chalmers and another Kingspan employee referencing K15 in which Mr Chalmers said: "doesnt [sic] actually get class 0 when we test the whole product tho LOL!"
"WHAT we lied?" the other employee wrote.
"yeahhhh tested K15 as a whole – got class 1 [an inferior standard] wheyy lol," responded Mr Chalmers.
That is about more than regulations and adhering to them. That is knowingly and wilfully endangering life. There should be gaol time, for people like Phil Heath, Aaron Chalmers, etc, in Kingspan and similar in Arconic.
Jail time is correct, it's the only way to prevent the corporate types from trying to get away with this type of thing. Fining the company just isn't enough on it's own. Personal responsibility needs enforced but no doubt there'll be loads of emails destroyed long before the police get access to them.
Yep. There should absolutely be prison sentences for the shit that appears to have gone down here. How the hell do these people sleep at night? I guess there's a certain percentage of the population who are sociopaths and don't give a f**k about their fellow man, but surely they must worry that some day it would all come back to bite them personally on the arse?
And its a complete indictment of the "light touch" regulatory climate that economic right wingers would have us all live under. Yes, the regs and standards are there, but you have to have effective, robust enforcement and verification, not hands-off rubber stamping and assumed good faith.
These companies and their executives and managers need to be rigourously investigated and made examples of. Criminal charges including manslaughter.