I have been considering this a lot of late.
With Ulster Bank in the south and BOI in the north leaving a lot of our high streets, coupled with the large retail culls what will our towns and cities look like in the future.
When we do leave lockdown and move on from this pandemic our towns and cities will look significantly different than even a year ago.
What will be the future anchor tenants on a high street, is retail dead with hospitality and leisure to take over, how can we stop the ghost town vibe in the short term while towns pivot to the new industries?
I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.
Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?
Quote from: general_lee on March 01, 2021, 02:14:27 PM
I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.
Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?
Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 01, 2021, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 01, 2021, 02:14:27 PM
I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.
Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?
Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?
Yes of course it is. Post conflict there was a lot of trepidation/hostility from existing business owners in the town regarding high street names coming. The result was they either went to Portadown instead or Rushmere. By the time people realised it was counterproductive it was too late. I'd imagine most towns will begin to resemble what Lurgan looks like now - handful of high street names, a few charity/pound shops, takeaways and lots of "To-Let" signs
Retail is dead. It's was always a pretty terrible experience and Covid has all but finished it. Shops that will continue exist are those that offer an added value service. Clothes shops were the assistant knows what he or she is doing and can give you a personal shopping experience. Any of you parents might be familiar with that shoe shop in P'down. They measure and check the child's feet and fit the shoes appropriately. An added value. I remember getting shoes as a child in it and our children all get shoes out of it.
The way to revive town centres is by enticing people back to live in them or pushing commercial office space. Otherwise you're looking a town centres with 62 vape shops, 87 Turksh barbers and 45 coffee shops. Depressing.
This is a major question for the future. Councils, who basically have nothing to offer, except emptying the bins, have pushed businesses out of towns through extortionate rates. But the biggest issue is that the market has completely moved away from town centres and Covid has just hastened the flight to online.
When you go into a town like Armagh or Dungannon, the centres are now very run down and loads of empty shop fronts. It is a bit depressing to see. All that's left are estate agents, cafes, barbers and shitty shops like e-cigarettes outlets and nail bars. Every few months you hear of another closure.
The Government needs to work out what it wants to do with these areas. We can see town centres becoming shit-holes before our eyes; with more potential for anti-social behaviour.
I wouldn't like to be heavily invested in commercial property.
Was reading an article, they reckoned that as the price of city centre and town centre property drops it'll be hoovered up by the likes of Amazon and other online retailers and used as distributions hubs, granted they are prob more talking about England but it is interesting and city centres will be completely different than what we've known
Looking at my own shithole town of Newry, a little vision would go a long way.
First things first: Hill Street. Once the shopping hub of our town, and a half-mile of largely pedestrianised space, with a couple of squares, that as it connects the northern side of town to the southern side, is handy got to for any citizen. But now with a shop frontage almost entirely made up of banks, solicitor offices, Polish shops and vape shops, the average person would never have reason to walk it, and even less so again after 5pm. A genuine waste of pedestrianised space.
What we should do: change the rateable values of buildings in Newry to make here, and the Mall, more amenable to certain types of business. In other words, slash rates for bars, restaurants and cafes that will relocate to Hill St, and overcharge any other type of business for remaining there. Then ensure it is pedestrian-only apart from 6am-10am each day, and further adjust how business rates work to help create an outdoor cafe culture.
Next, with regards to Monaghan St, which is now effectively one long takeaway with 200 doors, and hardly a restaurant to sit in. Adjust planning permission, across the town, to allow a maximum number of food trading units in any given hectare. The purpose here is not to put take-aways out of business, so much as to make restaurant a more attractive proposition.
Next, be realistic about making allowance for warehousing (Amazon), within bicycle courier distance from the town centre, with particular resonance for complementing the first two ideas. If a couple can visit Newry town centre for a long lunch, and have a handful of purchases dropped to their table while enjoying their meal, then this is close as we will ever get again to a high street shopping experience.
In terms of a public space, two things.
First, why Sinn Fein continue to row against a public park on the old Middlebank (opposite the Quays), is mystifying. I find it hard to believe just how lucky we are that an un-constructed area like this, with water on three sides, actually exists in a 21st century "city". It is ideal for a public space. That is would be a welcome receptacle and meeting point for those exploring the greenways is a further bonus.
There is also little reason why Newry canal, and especially the stretch between Victoria Lock and Sugar Island, cannot be reclaimed for watersports. The more difficult part of this is the presentation of it. All my life, the canal has had connotations of uncleanliness. Some of this sentiment is real, but most if it, I believe is owed to the use of walls, drops, fences and wasteland to "keep people away". Devise an outdoor cafe culture along its banks, and people will want to use the canal for watersports.
Last but not least. If the vision for a better Newry is to be one in which people can enjoy outdoor spaces and pedestrianised areas, then I'd think it's in everyone's benefit to move as much of the "heavy lifting" retail out of the town centre as possible. By this I mean that if your shop tends to see its customers exit with a trolley, or enough baggage to necessitate car parking nearby, then your shop has no place in a new town centre. The town centre should neither be a destination that requires a car, nor necessary for eons of distribution lorries daily to restock. There would be plenty of retail space available for barbers, bakers, jewellers, pharmacies, etc. But the pound shops and the medium-sized supermarkets, they'd go. Greengrocers would go too.
Now I know this is unfair on traditional businesses, some of which have been on Hill St for hundreds of years. So the solution is to make it attractive for them to move. First, make a call for planning applications for out-of-town retail space near the dual carriageway(s). But, with the tenet that that planning application must include provision for a) a minimum number of independent retail spaces within the zone, b) that these independent retail spaces act as a self-enclosed village, connecting or near to the flagship retail stores, c) that rent and charges for these spaces are transparent, and an upward review can only occur after an exhausting and costly process.
Need more town/city centre living. A bit of mild gentrification would do the world of good.
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 01, 2021, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 01, 2021, 02:14:27 PM
I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.
Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?
Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?
And also the centre of town was destroyed in a bomb 25 or so years ago. A lot of businesses didn't recover after that. Rushmere is crap too. If i was looking to go shopping I would tend to just go to Belfast.
Quote from: thewobbler on March 01, 2021, 02:57:28 PM
Looking at my own shithole town of Newry, a little vision would go a long way.
First things first: Hill Street. Once the shopping hub of our town, and a half-mile of largely pedestrianised space, with a couple of squares, that as it connects the northern side of town to the southern side, is handy got to for any citizen. But now with a shop frontage almost entirely made up of banks, solicitor offices, Polish shops and vape shops, the average person would never have reason to walk it, and even less so again after 5pm. A genuine waste of pedestrianised space.
What we should do: change the rateable values of buildings in Newry to make here, and the Mall, more amenable to certain types of business. In other words, slash rates for bars, restaurants and cafes that will relocate to Hill St, and overcharge any other type of business for remaining there. Then ensure it is pedestrian-only apart from 6am-10am each day, and further adjust how business rates work to help create an outdoor cafe culture.
Next, with regards to Monaghan St, which is now effectively one long takeaway with 200 doors, and hardly a restaurant to sit in. Adjust planning permission, across the town, to allow a maximum number of food trading units in any given hectare. The purpose here is not to put take-aways out of business, so much as to make restaurant a more attractive proposition.
Next, be realistic about making allowance for warehousing (Amazon), within bicycle courier distance from the town centre, with particular resonance for complementing the first two ideas. If a couple can visit Newry town centre for a long lunch, and have a handful of purchases dropped to their table while enjoying their meal, then this is close as we will ever get again to a high street shopping experience.
In terms of a public space, two things.
First, why Sinn Fein continue to row against a public park on the old Middlebank (opposite the Quays), is mystifying. I find it hard to believe just how lucky we are that an un-constructed area like this, with water on three sides, actually exists in a 21st century "city". It is ideal for a public space. That is would be a welcome receptacle and meeting point for those exploring the greenways is a further bonus.
There is also little reason why Newry canal, and especially the stretch between Victoria Lock and Sugar Island, cannot be reclaimed for watersports. The more difficult part of this is the presentation of it. All my life, the canal has had connotations of uncleanliness. Some of this sentiment is real, but most if it, I believe is owed to the use of walls, drops, fences and wasteland to "keep people away". Devise an outdoor cafe culture along its banks, and people will want to use the canal for watersports.
Last but not least. If the vision for a better Newry is to be one in which people can enjoy outdoor spaces and pedestrianised areas, then I'd think it's in everyone's benefit to move as much of the "heavy lifting" retail out of the town centre as possible. By this I mean that if your shop tends to see its customers exit with a trolley, or enough baggage to necessitate car parking nearby, then your shop has no place in a new town centre. The town centre should neither be a destination that requires a car, nor necessary for eons of distribution lorries daily to restock. There would be plenty of retail space available for barbers, bakers, jewellers, pharmacies, etc. But the pound shops and the medium-sized supermarkets, they'd go. Greengrocers would go too.
Now I know this is unfair on traditional businesses, some of which have been on Hill St for hundreds of years. So the solution is to make it attractive for them to move. First, make a call for planning applications for out-of-town retail space near the dual carriageway(s). But, with the tenet that that planning application must include provision for a) a minimum number of independent retail spaces within the zone, b) that these independent retail spaces act as a self-enclosed village, connecting or near to the flagship retail stores, c) that rent and charges for these spaces are transparent, and an upward review can only occur after an exhausting and costly process.
Shithole really? I wouldn't agree, having went to school in Newry in the 80's I have to say there has been a lot of changes for the better, its not a bad aul place now
Anyone think that parking has an impact in attracting people to town?
The cost of parking is horrendous. Belfast is a ghost town right now, Debenhams Topshop and a raft of other big retailers have gone for good. Who will fill those spots? I can see two bank buildings from my work that have closed it's doors. The first trust is closed over 2 years now
What new bars restaurants would gamble in opening up now with the threat of closures due to possible future lockdowns?
Quote from: general_lee on March 01, 2021, 02:23:26 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 01, 2021, 02:16:21 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 01, 2021, 02:14:27 PM
I don't know if you've ever been to Lurgan town centre, but if you want an example of what towns will look like, come for a visit.
Ironically though Lurgan still boasts a BOI, Ulster Bank, First Trust, Danske, Santander, Halifax and possibly a Nationwide branch?
Is that not more to do with a shopping centre and retail park 3/4 miles away?
Yes of course it is. Post conflict there was a lot of trepidation/hostility from existing business owners in the town regarding high street names coming. The result was they either went to Portadown instead or Rushmere. By the time people realised it was counterproductive it was too late. I'd imagine most towns will begin to resemble what Lurgan looks like now - handful of high street names, a few charity/pound shops, takeaways and lots of "To-Let" signs
In saying that, Portadown is the same, dead town. Funny enough though, Banbridge seems to have a bit of life about it even though it has that outlet and retail park beside it.
Not sure I'd agree Targetman. Newry is tidier than it used to be, no doubt. But it must have the most atrocious public facilities of any large town in the wee six. There's no park, no demonstrable town centre or civic space, almost no playing fields. We live in a part of the world where your rates seemingly have only two purposes: refuse collection, and council sick pay.
Quote from: themac_23 on March 01, 2021, 02:41:50 PM
Was reading an article, they reckoned that as the price of city centre and town centre property drops it'll be hoovered up by the likes of Amazon and other online retailers and used as distributions hubs, granted they are prob more talking about England but it is interesting and city centres will be completely different than what we've known
No chance. Town centres are among the most difficult to access for freight in the country.
How do you think Mr Peeler will react if 2 dozen Amazon vans pull up onto the kerbs on Donegall square and stick on the flashers?
Edit: Sorry for the long post, but this is a soapbox topic for me!
Last time I was in Lurgan I saw a few vacant shop-fronts, plus a few missing teeth. But there was still a fair bit of life about it. Lots of quirky small boutique style shops selling gifts, clothes, locally flavoured stuff. The pubs still seem to be going strong, and the selection of cafes and restaurants seems to have improved since the 1990s.
Banking? That's a declining industry as far as retail frontage goes. For that you can thank online and mobile banking. Bank of Ireland are taking a bit of heat for mass closures of physical branches, but frankly I'm surprised they lasted this long. Over here in California there's still a plethora of over-sized bank buildings sitting on prime real estate with 2 or 3 people working in them and ten times more dedicated parking than they need. I could see that shaking out in the next few years.
Parking? Great cities aren't known for their abundance of parking. If anything there's probably too much of it. In Lurgan people gripe about it being hard to park, but the fact is they've leveled entire streets to make way for parking and there's never been more storage space given over to the car. Half of Carnegie Street obliterated to make way for the storage of 30 cars outside Tesco, when they could have put the new Tesco on the site of the old Grattan Centre between Castle Lane and Windsor Avenue, which as far as I know has been derelict for about ten years or more. Then there's all that derelict ground between Castle Lane and Church Walk. Why has that never been developed into a square with business space on the ground and apartments above?
Which brings me to my next point - we need to go back to having more people living in the middle of towns. There's huge pent-up demand for town-centre apartments among people in their 20s. A single fella who's still chasing girls doesn't need to live in a suburban semi-detached house with a front garden, that's for later when he's starting a family. Increase the town centre population and you'll soon see more footfall and plenty of retail and entertainment businesses coming back to the high street.
Newry? I'm surprised to see a native of that town calling it a "shithole," I always quite liked the place and the people from there. I ran the Newry 10k a few years ago and thought it was fantastic. Lovely run along the towpath and back into town. I was surprised to see fountains in the canal, I thought it'd be better to make it navigable again.
I'm also surprised at the lack of pedestrian frontage facing the water, especially where the Buttercrane could have put some windows on the street to improve safety and the pedestrian experience there. No need for those blank walls facing the canals, the older buildings have windows that overlook the canals and have great potential. Look at how Amsterdam does it, they celebrate the canals and put them centre stage, not turn their backs on them.
I recently had a look on Google street and satellite view at the old railway line that ran through the middle of Newry (https://youtu.be/aIFAQBKfggU). Apparently there's a new leisure centre there now, but if they hadn't put it there they could have opened up the possibility of reopening the old railway line all the way into the old Edward St station which is now a Translink bus depot that doesn't really need to be there. They could still get the railway in as far as the leisure centre though, so any trains terminating at Newry could go into the middle of town instead of the current station that's closer to Bessbrook (and used to be called Newry/Bessbrook as it happens.) There used to be a tram that ran from Bessbrook down into Newry too, and most of that old route still seems to be clear.
Speaking of trains, the railway network needs to be brought back (https://youtu.be/rUT_cpamUHU). It's a disgrace the lines that were closed in the 1950s, especially the Portadown-Dungannon-Omagh-Strabane-Derry line that was hugely popular. But plenty of the routes are still clear and could well be reopened if rail were taken as seriously as road funding. There's always plenty of money for road projects that generate more traffic, but a lot more scepticism about rail projects that would reduce traffic on roads as well as revitalise town centres that could be made more accessible without the need for parking. The Portadown Armagh Railway Society has had some successful at lobbying to get their old line (https://youtu.be/DF69j1tIeh8) reopened, it's got as far as a feasibility study and there seems to be a lot of support for it from the council and the executive.
Speaking of buses, if I had my way a town like Lurgan would have shuttle buses running in continuous loops around the town ferrying people in and out of the town centre. One for Teghnaven, one for Killwilke, one for Mourneview, and maybe one for the Avenue Rd. Let the Chamber of Commerce set it up, run it at a loss, but get people into the town without having to drive. If there's a bus going past every 5 or 10 minutes then there'll be more people using it. Sell weekly all-you-can-eat passes so people pay a weekly fare and then use the bus as much as they like. Call it "Sureline" and paint them orange and white to evoke the history of buses in the town. Employ local drivers who know the people getting on and off, just like the old Sureline days.
As for heavy-lifting retail, I think there's some value in keeping some of that in the middle of town. I hate out-of-town retail parks, they're soulless and they just generate traffic. I like the Dutch system of having medium-sized food stores in town (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYHTzqHIngk) that people access on foot or by bike nearly every day, instead of doing one big weekly shop that needs a car to haul everything. But that requires retrofitting the streets to be bike friendly, and Ireland (north and south) has a long way to go in that regard.
Quote from: trailer on March 01, 2021, 02:29:37 PM
Retail is dead. It's was always a pretty terrible experience and Covid has all but finished it. Shops that will continue exist are those that offer an added value service. Clothes shops were the assistant knows what he or she is doing and can give you a personal shopping experience. Any of you parents might be familiar with that shoe shop in P'down. They measure and check the child's feet and fit the shoes appropriately. An added value. I remember getting shoes as a child in it and our children all get shoes out of it.
The way to revive town centres is by enticing people back to live in them or pushing commercial office space. Otherwise you're looking a town centres with 62 vape shops, 87 Turksh barbers and 45 coffee shops. Depressing.
In Omagh the place to go to for kids shoes, for the same reason you've highlighted, was Clarks. Apparently it has shut for good in the latest lockdown.
With 3 young kids we were in it often in the past few years, primarily for the shoe fitting service. They almost never had the sizes in stock, so you'd order and have them posted directly to the house or pickup in store a few days later.
You can now just buy the measuring tool for £12 online and order shoes from anywhere. It didn't make much sense to me for them to still have a store in town simply for the measuring service - and obviously no longer to them
I see so many of our stores in town as just pickup/drop off points for online shopping - Next, M&S (excl food), Argos etc - they could all just be replaced by 1 big Collect+ store on the edge of town
David McWilliams is talking alot about this on twitter atm - he's proposing a dereliction charge on property owners who let town centre property go derelict, to try and force them to sell it rather than hold on to it for years until it becomes more valuable.
Some are saying that we need people to move back into town & city centres to revive them. I can understand that thinking, but I'm not sure the people exist here that would want to live in town (?) maybe they do.
I get what Eamonnca1 is saying there about a young guy in his 20s preferring to live in the center of town but they're often priced out of it? (& no/expensive parking). This probably only works for City centres, not market towns like Omagh etc where there's little happening
There was planning permission being contested recently around the cathedral Quarter area of Belfast - those campaigning against a load of 1 bed apartments were claiming there should be more 2 & 3 beds to bring families back into the city centre. Sounds nice in theory - but would many people want to raise a family right in the middle of town?
A low cost (even free) regular dependable public transport service is a good idea to get people to town & leave the car at home
I'm all for the outdoor cafe culture, I really enjoy it in other European cities even in the cold. Some local places put real effort into it in recent times. e.g. Mourne Seafood in Belfast, proving it can work