So any thoughts on this? Used heavily in our club as a form of communication to members
https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2020/0128/1111512-gaa-urges-clubs-to-avoid-whatsapp-due-to-gdpr-concerns/
Surely when people sign up to WhatsApp they have to agree to allowing their phone number and profile photo to be used? It's going to be very difficult to stop people using it as its a simple, free, effective tool. It will be interesting to see what the GAA communications app is like, if it's not simple, easy to use and offers a 'group chat' function it simply won't work. If it's an extension of the servasport text service whereby you have to buy credits to send texts they may just knock it on the head now.
We have the new Gaa app for registration, club notes and communication to relevant age groups up and running at our club. Communication is one way, so if parents have to confirm childs attendance at games, it's done via private what's app or old fashioned text message.
What's app can be dodgy in the wrong hands, I have heard some horror stories of U8 parents sent pictures meant for wives, husbands, you get the picture.
WhatsApp can be set up to be one way communication. This gdpr is a load of shite
Quote from: Rudi on January 29, 2020, 09:26:12 PM
We have the new Gaa app for registration, club notes and communication to relevant age groups up and running at our club. Communication is one way, so if parents have to confirm childs attendance at games, it's done via private what's app or old fashioned text message.
What's app can be dodgy in the wrong hands, I have heard some horror stories of U8 parents sent pictures meant for wives, husbands, you get the picture.
Or the Westmeath physio sending a picture of his crotch to the team WhatsApp group 🤣🤣🤣
This all baffles me.
I ran a minor team before mobile phones. I ran senior and reserve teams before IM/group chat. And it was soul destroying stuff. Never knowing who was turning up until they turned up. Fielding dozens of calls to the house phone when there was heavy rain. Standing for an hour around the ground when a game was cancelled at short notice, to let the players know. Going to hospital with a player and not having a clue how to get the word out to family. Hanging around at the end of training for young fellas waiting on their lifts. It was of its time, but it was genuinely crap.
We've now arrived at a point where all these problems are in the past. And people wang to return there. It's insanity.
——
The biggest gripe I have though is the stories about how "one of the mentors posted something inappropriate and everyone saw it it."
Well here's the thing, I've offended dozens of people in a room with my tongue, sometimes on purpose and sometimes by accident. I've witnessed countless other people doing the same thing.
At no time has anyone ever suggested cutting people's tongues out. Because we wouldn't want their primary communication channel to be cut off for a mistake. Or even for a deliberately offensive tirade. We have learned to accept this as people. Communication is a basic right.
In terms of uptake, WhatsApp is the second most important and prolific communication channel ever created. And with mass uptake comes occasional unpleasantness. No different to how the car changed the world forever, along with a byproduct of RTAs, and deaths - we just have to learn to put up with the occasional anguish for the massive advantages WhatsApp brings.
——
The GAA app will fail because it will not provide the functionality needed to communicate properly, and it will have too many barriers to entry for the universal uptake required to even consider taking on WhatsApp.
This is the easiest prediction anyone will ever make. There is no need for it. The technology will not be as strong as the competition. The interfaces will be unnecessarily complex because the entire concept is counter intuitive. It will fail miserably.
This money could have been put to such better use too.
Hit the nail on the head there wobbler.
Great post wobbler
Unless it's better than last year the App isn't fit for purpose. Try registering people on it, easy....no not really. OK when just one person, but 2 kids in the one family that's a different proposition altogether. That's why we will be sticking with Klub Funder
Great post wobbler.
Just waiting for the 'but...but....but' brigade to come along
Totally agree wobbler
One of the biggest laughs about this is that they cannot even get their own county boards weened of whatsapp. Where I live all the county board sub committees, all the regional coaches and underage team managers are all using WHatsapp.
However, if you are interested in an alternative. "Teamer" is a very decent one. Of course you will have to beg every parent to install it and pay attention to it, but that is another story.
The GAA have some nerve on them, can't use a free, exceptional communication tool now they recommend.
And they wonder why people are turning off the game reading this type of nonsense. If it's good enough for professional sports, it'll be good enough for us, with all due respect.
Quote from: the_daddy on January 30, 2020, 10:22:14 AM
The GAA app is grand for 1 way communication but has no group chat capability so that's not going to work for a team situation. However, regardless of the 'but but but' there is a legitimate point. The problem with Whatsapp is that there is no 'opt-in' element to the group chat, you have to 'opt-out'. If you're added to a group you have no control over who sees / has access to your number, even after you opt out, which is a legitimate GDPR concern. Maybe something like Telegram where you're sent a link to join a chat, so you have to opt-in and use a nickname may be more suitable for team/group/committee information purposes.
This is very much a problem of the first world variety.
GDPR was designed to prevent organisations hoarding your data for their own use. It wasn't designed to prevent people from having conversations. There might be some crossover and greyness between the two, but genuinely this only becomes complicated if you want it to.
If a club mentor wants to add someone to a group chat focused on club activities, he should ask the person first. While the data relationship is between each user and WhatsApp, this approach should help everyone understand that it's not a free for all group.
If John Smith doesn't want to be involved in the group chat, John Smith can then decline that offer, or subsequently leave the group chat if it's not for him.
If Joan Smith doesn't want her phone number to be visible to strangers, she should probably consider leaving WhatsApp, or at least masking her identity on the platform, and nailing down her privacy settings. She can then, if she likes, move to another platform where the lack of a unique identifier (phone number) means that anyone prone to stalking can hide under the veil of multiple anonymous accounts and logins, and be much more difficult to identify.
If Juan Smith posts something inappropriate to a group, he gets a yellow card from the admin. 2-3 strikes and he's out of the group.
If Joanne Smith would prefer text messages or phone calls instead of any form of digital chat, then she should bring that forward to the lead mentor. I'm sure most people will facilitate such a request.
Commonsense folks. It's all that's needed.
Quote from: the_daddy on January 30, 2020, 10:22:14 AM
The GAA app is grand for 1 way communication but has no group chat capability so that's not going to work for a team situation. However, regardless of the 'but but but' there is a legitimate point. The problem with Whatsapp is that there is no 'opt-in' element to the group chat, you have to 'opt-out'. If you're added to a group you have no control over who sees / has access to your number, even after you opt out, which is a legitimate GDPR concern. Maybe something like Telegram where you're sent a link to join a chat, so you have to opt-in and use a nickname may be more suitable for team/group/committee information purposes.
Would a simple opt in or opt out line regarding WhatsApp groups when paying your membership not suffice? Not up to date at all on GDPR so maybe it wouldn't?
Quote from: the_daddy on January 30, 2020, 10:22:14 AM
The GAA app is grand for 1 way communication but has no group chat capability so that's not going to work for a team situation. However, regardless of the 'but but but' there is a legitimate point. The problem with Whatsapp is that there is no 'opt-in' element to the group chat, you have to 'opt-out'. If you're added to a group you have no control over who sees / has access to your number, even after you opt out, which is a legitimate GDPR concern. Maybe something like Telegram where you're sent a link to join a chat, so you have to opt-in and use a nickname may be more suitable for team/group/committee information purposes.
You can make a group and only have the admins with the ability to send messages to all.
Quote from: the_daddy on January 30, 2020, 10:48:12 AM
Not disagreeing at all but to paraphrase what a top referee has frequently told me, show me where it says common sense in the rulebook / GDPR legislation.
Bad example. If a ref lets an untidy tackle go, no law is being broken. I work in an information-sensitive industry and colleagues and customers routinely think nothing of using whatsapp. If they're all breaking the law, the law is an ass. Whatsapp wouldn't have survived thus far if this was the case.
I agree with most of what you're saying wobbler except the common sense thing. . . have you been to a match recently??
The GAA is hundreds of thousands of people and trying to get that large an group to have common sense is impossible.
There will also be pricks who have common sense who will go at a club or the GAA for not adhering to good GDPR practice.
You can talk about common sense all you want but go to any club meeting up and down the country to discuss insurance and the frivolous claims the GAA are facing from their own members and how premiums are skyrocketing and you'll see what common sense gets you.
The GAA are huge and need to cover their ass on this the problem you will have now is clubs will stay with whatsapp and we'll see the fruits of that over the next few years!!
Quote from: square_ball on January 30, 2020, 10:41:35 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on January 30, 2020, 10:22:14 AM
The GAA app is grand for 1 way communication but has no group chat capability so that's not going to work for a team situation. However, regardless of the 'but but but' there is a legitimate point. The problem with Whatsapp is that there is no 'opt-in' element to the group chat, you have to 'opt-out'. If you're added to a group you have no control over who sees / has access to your number, even after you opt out, which is a legitimate GDPR concern. Maybe something like Telegram where you're sent a link to join a chat, so you have to opt-in and use a nickname may be more suitable for team/group/committee information purposes.
Would a simple opt in or opt out line regarding WhatsApp groups when paying your membership not suffice? Not up to date at all on GDPR so maybe it wouldn't?
GDPR is a scam on a global scale, creating an entirely new industry where people busy themselves inventing new ways to be relevant.
The bit in bold is the solution to keep those types of people happy.
Quote from: screenexile on January 30, 2020, 12:09:05 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying wobbler except the common sense thing. . . have you been to a match recently??
The GAA is hundreds of thousands of people and trying to get that large an group to have common sense is impossible.
There will also be pricks who have common sense who will go at a club or the GAA for not adhering to good GDPR practice.
You can talk about common sense all you want but go to any club meeting up and down the country to discuss insurance and the frivolous claims the GAA are facing from their own members and how premiums are skyrocketing and you'll see what common sense gets you.
The GAA are huge and need to cover their ass on this the problem you will have now is clubs will stay with whatsapp and we'll see the fruits of that over the next few years!!
Screen this is fair old tangent you're heading upon.
The problems that the GAA are highlighting with WhatsApp are fictional. They're attempting to enforce controls on a service that they do not provide.
To revert to my cars analogy from earlier. If a senior football team is travelling up the county in cars, they're all private cars with private insurance. That they're going to play Gaelic sports at the end of their journey is not relevant. If there is an accident, nobody is going to sue the GAA or demand that the GAA represent them in court. The GAA will never produce guidelines for "how to drive safely between GAA venues", as it's none of their business. Yet the GAA would crumble as an organisation if private cars aren't used for that very purpose.
WhatsApp should be considered along the same lines. It's a tool that can be availed of by anyone, including GAA clubs. But what happens on that platform frankly should never be a concern of the GAA.
Would implied consent not be given when a user signs up to WhatApp? As in, most people are aware their profile image and number is displayed to other users? By signing up to WhatsApp you are in fact opting in?
Take the example of a missed call on your phone. If it is a mobile number, you can save this to your phone and check you contacts on WhatsApp and view a profile photo to see who it was.
This has nothing to do with groups or people adding you to groups without your permission, this is just basic functionality of the app. I would imagine in that spiel of text before you click the "I agree" button, there is something in there detailing this and how your data is used?
Whoever you are Wobbler, you should be running the show.
I dread to think what the new GAA will be like. I can guarantee that it will have a significant amount of security flaws that will leave the data of thousands of people at risk of it ends up being used for registration purposes etc. GAA HQ will be the ones who will have to cough up the money for GDPR beaches and once this happens the app will be a dead duck.
If the likes of Nord VPN, Talk Talk, Yahoo, etc have found it difficult to protect data then the GAA is in for a torrid time.
Quote from: Ethan Tremblay on January 30, 2020, 01:00:34 PM
Would implied consent not be given when a user signs up to WhatApp? As in, most people are aware their profile image and number is displayed to other users? By signing up to WhatsApp you are in fact opting in?
Take the example of a missed call on your phone. If it is a mobile number, you can save this to your phone and check you contacts on WhatsApp and view a profile photo to see who it was.
This has nothing to do with groups or people adding you to groups without your permission, this is just basic functionality of the app. I would imagine in that spiel of text before you click the "I agree" button, there is something in there detailing this and how your data is used?
https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/?eea=1#privacy-policy-information-we-collect (https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/?eea=1#privacy-policy-information-we-collect)
Information You Provide
Your Account Information. You provide your mobile phone number and basic information (including a profile name) to create a WhatsApp account. You provide us, all in accordance with applicable laws, the phone numbers in your mobile address book on a regular basis, including those of both the users of our Services and your other contacts. You may provide us an email address. You may also add other information to your account, such as a profile picture and about information.
Agree with all the sentiments of wobbler - commonsense seems to be a thing of the past!
Quote from: screenexile on January 30, 2020, 12:09:05 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying wobbler except the common sense thing. . . have you been to a match recently??
The GAA is hundreds of thousands of people and trying to get that large an group to have common sense is impossible.
There will also be pricks who have common sense who will go at a club or the GAA for not adhering to good GDPR practice.
You can talk about common sense all you want but go to any club meeting up and down the country to discuss insurance and the frivolous claims the GAA are facing from their own members and how premiums are skyrocketing and you'll see what common sense gets you.
The GAA are huge and need to cover their ass on this the problem you will have now is clubs will stay with whatsapp and we'll see the fruits of that over the next few years!!
This is all driven by the GAA in terms of covering themselves as much as possible in terms of the GDPR legislation.
The punishments for not complying with this legislation are fairly serious (see below) and it's seems fairly clear from reading the links below that any organisation using WhatsApp to operate contravenes the legislation in multiple different way.
You can agree with the wrongs and rights of the GDPR legislation, but I'd be shocked if you would find a lawyer in the land who would argue that what the GAA are doing here isn't the sensible option given the legislation. From what I can see it would be gross negligence of the GAA not to issue this statement.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/overview_of_general_data_protection_regulation.html#l9b2e4
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/legislation_relating_to_the_general_data_protection_regulation.html
QuoteSerious infringements
For the most serious infringements (for example, not having sufficient customer consent to process data or violating the core of privacy by design concepts) organisations can be fined up to 4% of their annual global turnover or €20 million, whichever is greater.
Each member state may introduce further fines legislation, which will be enforceable within that state only.
Lesser breaches
Under the GDPR, organisations in breach of the Regulation can be fined up to 2% of their annual global turnover or €10 million, whichever is greater, for lesser breaches. Some examples of lesser breaches include: not having records in order, not notifying the supervisory authority and data subject about a breach or not an conducting impact assessment.
Quote from: twohands!!! on January 30, 2020, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 30, 2020, 12:09:05 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying wobbler except the common sense thing. . . have you been to a match recently??
The GAA is hundreds of thousands of people and trying to get that large an group to have common sense is impossible.
There will also be pricks who have common sense who will go at a club or the GAA for not adhering to good GDPR practice.
You can talk about common sense all you want but go to any club meeting up and down the country to discuss insurance and the frivolous claims the GAA are facing from their own members and how premiums are skyrocketing and you'll see what common sense gets you.
The GAA are huge and need to cover their ass on this the problem you will have now is clubs will stay with whatsapp and we'll see the fruits of that over the next few years!!
This is all driven by the GAA in terms of covering themselves as much as possible in terms of the GDPR legislation.
The punishments for not complying with this legislation are fairly serious (see below) and it's seems fairly clear from reading the links below that any organisation using WhatsApp to operate contravenes the legislation in multiple different way.
You can agree with the wrongs and rights of the GDPR legislation, but I'd be shocked if you would find a lawyer in the land who would argue that what the GAA are doing here isn't the sensible option given the legislation. From what I can see it would be gross negligence of the GAA not to issue this statement.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/overview_of_general_data_protection_regulation.html#l9b2e4
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/legislation_relating_to_the_general_data_protection_regulation.html
QuoteSerious infringements
For the most serious infringements (for example, not having sufficient customer consent to process data or violating the core of privacy by design concepts) organisations can be fined up to 4% of their annual global turnover or €20 million, whichever is greater.
Each member state may introduce further fines legislation, which will be enforceable within that state only.
Lesser breaches
Under the GDPR, organisations in breach of the Regulation can be fined up to 2% of their annual global turnover or €10 million, whichever is greater, for lesser breaches. Some examples of lesser breaches include: not having records in order, not notifying the supervisory authority and data subject about a breach or not an conducting impact assessment.
I fail to see how the GAA can be described as either the data controller or data processor for group chats on WhatsApp.
So what on earth could they find themselves in breach of?
Quote from: thewobbler on January 30, 2020, 08:30:47 PM
Quote from: twohands!!! on January 30, 2020, 06:27:02 PM
Quote from: screenexile on January 30, 2020, 12:09:05 PM
I agree with most of what you're saying wobbler except the common sense thing. . . have you been to a match recently??
The GAA is hundreds of thousands of people and trying to get that large an group to have common sense is impossible.
There will also be pricks who have common sense who will go at a club or the GAA for not adhering to good GDPR practice.
You can talk about common sense all you want but go to any club meeting up and down the country to discuss insurance and the frivolous claims the GAA are facing from their own members and how premiums are skyrocketing and you'll see what common sense gets you.
The GAA are huge and need to cover their ass on this the problem you will have now is clubs will stay with whatsapp and we'll see the fruits of that over the next few years!!
This is all driven by the GAA in terms of covering themselves as much as possible in terms of the GDPR legislation.
The punishments for not complying with this legislation are fairly serious (see below) and it's seems fairly clear from reading the links below that any organisation using WhatsApp to operate contravenes the legislation in multiple different way.
You can agree with the wrongs and rights of the GDPR legislation, but I'd be shocked if you would find a lawyer in the land who would argue that what the GAA are doing here isn't the sensible option given the legislation. From what I can see it would be gross negligence of the GAA not to issue this statement.
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/overview_of_general_data_protection_regulation.html#l9b2e4
https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/data_protection/legislation_relating_to_the_general_data_protection_regulation.html
QuoteSerious infringements
For the most serious infringements (for example, not having sufficient customer consent to process data or violating the core of privacy by design concepts) organisations can be fined up to 4% of their annual global turnover or €20 million, whichever is greater.
Each member state may introduce further fines legislation, which will be enforceable within that state only.
Lesser breaches
Under the GDPR, organisations in breach of the Regulation can be fined up to 2% of their annual global turnover or €10 million, whichever is greater, for lesser breaches. Some examples of lesser breaches include: not having records in order, not notifying the supervisory authority and data subject about a breach or not an conducting impact assessment.
I fail to see how the GAA can be described as either the data controller or data processor for group chats on WhatsApp.
So what on earth could they find themselves in breach of?
It's the clubs themselves who would be regarded as the data controllers for the WhatsApp group chats.
I'm not a lawyer but it looks to me that WhatsApp is a minefield in terms of GDPR and the Croke Park are simply doing their job in telling clubs about their responsibilities as regards data protection and GDPR.
I'm not a lawyer either.
But a club cannot be a data controller. Groups are set up by individuals. And even if they weren't, the relationship is between the user and WhatsApp, with groups little more than a middleman, an avenue to move data around.
Plus as every individual in a group has the same ability to export a group's history, to my mind that makes them all data processors.
——
Anyhow, none of this makes sense. Every club in Ireland has a Facebook and/or Twitter account which can be traced back to an authorised club committee decision, and the appointment of suitable club personnel to manage these accounts. In these forums, clubs share, invite and exchange data with people who have made no commitment / legal agreement with those clubs.
They are clearly a data professor, maybe even a controller, as they have the ability to review, export and analyse every exchange that has taken place on their channel - whereas normal users cannot.
For the life of me I cannot work out how these platforms are "GDPR okay" but WhatsApp is the ultimate scourge of privacy.
As a result I've fully arrived at the belief that there is no issue. But somebody somewhere has decided it's in the GAA's interests to manufacture one.
Has any clubs been informed by their county board to stop using this facility? No indication that my own club is intending to stop its use. I guess it's a case of wait and see what others are doing.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 30, 2020, 10:12:53 PM
Anyhow, none of this makes sense. Every club in Ireland has a Facebook and/or Twitter account which can be traced back to an authorised club committee decision, and the appointment of suitable club personnel to manage these accounts. In these forums, clubs share, invite and exchange data with people who have made no commitment / legal agreement with those clubs.
They are clearly a data professor, maybe even a controller, as they have the ability to review, export and analyse every exchange that has taken place on their channel - whereas normal users cannot.
For the life of me I cannot work out how these platforms are "GDPR okay" but WhatsApp is the ultimate scourge of privacy.
As a result I've fully arrived at the belief that there is no issue. But somebody somewhere has decided it's in the GAA's interests to manufacture one.
The Facebook page is under the control of the club, if someone posts up something then the club can take it down. Whatsapp is peer to peer, the club don't control the group although they may encourage people of join it.
The Data Protection Commissioner 's office in Laois, they have probably got this from a good source.
Building a GAA app is not the way forward, no doubt one of these apps like Whatsapp has a paid account with more control and this is the way forward, in the same way as organisation pay Google to run their mail.
How many club groups have been officially sanctioned by the clubs? They spring up everywhere, senior football, camogie, hurling for players, managers, coaches for all age groups, etc etc etc, set up by who ever. will the club be held responsible for any breaches of GDPR?
Quote from: Last Caress on January 30, 2020, 10:46:54 PM
Has any clubs been informed by their county board to stop using this facility? No indication that my own club is intending to stop its use. I guess it's a case of wait and see what others are doing.
My kids are in hurling, football and camogie all communication was through whatsapp for years now we are getting text messages.
My best guess on what has happened here.
Within the GAA hierarchy:
- A communications officer has attended a GDPR seminar and in the cloud of confusion started pressing panic buttons.
- They then sought legal counsel, who without any case law to refer to for sporting organisations, has urged caution. Which they're right to do, as the fundamental principles of GDPR is not to put yourself in a position to collect or distribute sensitive data.
- Meanwhile a technology officer, who has been given the brief of making a GAA app, has come to the belief that if everyone uses it for communications, it will be roaring success. The fact that Facebook has split its communications app - for a variety of legal and user experience reasons - from its primary app has gone unnoticed. They can see the glory.
- Same communications officer is likely working closely with a marketing / advertising agency on the core app, who know very little about technology, but are determined to milk this relationship for whatever it can, and they will make it as feature rich as possible, again ignoring the basic principles of app design, that less is more.
- A finance officer has caught wind of all this and has begun devising a masterplqn to monitize the app through advertising, club fees and add-one. Like the technology officer, he is working on the belief that it communications comes on board, there will be up to half a million users across Ireland. Ker-ching.
- Together they've presented their vision to the GAA top brass. Armed with all of the above it seems like a fairly solid proposal. Throw in the scare stories about about mentors accidentally share tasteless jokes and porn with parents' groups (and every user of WhatsApp understands how easily this is done), and a party line is quickly formed.
- So they're now going after it. "It" being a collection of substandard tools patched together through a dreadful app interface. It will be dreadful, because when you've a four inch screen, it's extraordinarily difficult to make a product that is both feature rich and easy to use.
- And when anyone from the GAA is questioned about why they are gong ahead they will jump between scare stories about GDPR (followed by a "we have taken legal advice", with no further comment) and scare stories about unsuitable content (which can just easily happen through email, an official GAA service ).
It's balderdash folks.
It will cost millions and be binned within 2 years.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 31, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
My best guess on what has happened here.
Within the GAA hierarchy:
- A communications officer has attended a GDPR seminar and in the cloud of confusion started pressing panic buttons.
- They then sought legal counsel, who without any case law to refer to for sporting organisations, has urged caution. Which they're right to do, as the fundamental principles of GDPR is not to put yourself in a position to collect or distribute sensitive data.
- Meanwhile a technology officer, who has been given the brief of making a GAA app, has come to the belief that if everyone uses it for communications, it will be roaring success. The fact that Facebook has split its communications app - for a variety of legal and user experience reasons - from its primary app has gone unnoticed. They can see the glory.
- Same communications officer is likely working closely with a marketing / advertising agency on the core app, who know very little about technology, but are determined to milk this relationship for whatever it can, and they will make it as feature rich as possible, again ignoring the basic principles of app design, that less is more.
- A finance officer has caught wind of all this and has begun devising a masterplqn to monitize the app through advertising, club fees and add-one. Like the technology officer, he is working on the belief that it communications comes on board, there will be up to half a million users across Ireland. Ker-ching.
- Together they've presented their vision to the GAA top brass. Armed with all of the above it seems like a fairly solid proposal. Throw in the scare stories about about mentors accidentally share tasteless jokes and porn with parents' groups (and every user of WhatsApp understands how easily this is done), and a party line is quickly formed.
- So they're now going after it. "It" being a collection of substandard tools patched together through a dreadful app interface. It will be dreadful, because when you've a four inch screen, it's extraordinarily difficult to make a product that is both feature rich and easy to use.
- And when anyone from the GAA is questioned about why they are gong ahead they will jump between scare stories about GDPR (followed by a "we have taken legal advice", with no further comment) and scare stories about unsuitable content (which can just easily happen through email, an official GAA service ).
It's balderdash folks.
It will cost millions and be binned within 2 years.
Couldn't agree more.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 31, 2020, 08:39:44 AM
My best guess on what has happened here.
Within the GAA hierarchy:
- A communications officer has attended a GDPR seminar and in the cloud of confusion started pressing panic buttons.
- They then sought legal counsel, who without any case law to refer to for sporting organisations, has urged caution. Which they're right to do, as the fundamental principles of GDPR is not to put yourself in a position to collect or distribute sensitive data.
- Meanwhile a technology officer, who has been given the brief of making a GAA app, has come to the belief that if everyone uses it for communications, it will be roaring success. The fact that Facebook has split its communications app - for a variety of legal and user experience reasons - from its primary app has gone unnoticed. They can see the glory.
- Same communications officer is likely working closely with a marketing / advertising agency on the core app, who know very little about technology, but are determined to milk this relationship for whatever it can, and they will make it as feature rich as possible, again ignoring the basic principles of app design, that less is more.
- A finance officer has caught wind of all this and has begun devising a masterplqn to monitize the app through advertising, club fees and add-one. Like the technology officer, he is working on the belief that it communications comes on board, there will be up to half a million users across Ireland. Ker-ching.
- Together they've presented their vision to the GAA top brass. Armed with all of the above it seems like a fairly solid proposal. Throw in the scare stories about about mentors accidentally share tasteless jokes and porn with parents' groups (and every user of WhatsApp understands how easily this is done), and a party line is quickly formed.
- So they're now going after it. "It" being a collection of substandard tools patched together through a dreadful app interface. It will be dreadful, because when you've a four inch screen, it's extraordinarily difficult to make a product that is both feature rich and easy to use.
- And when anyone from the GAA is questioned about why they are gong ahead they will jump between scare stories about GDPR (followed by a "we have taken legal advice", with no further comment) and scare stories about unsuitable content (which can just easily happen through email, an official GAA service ).
It's balderdash folks.
It will cost millions and be binned within 2 years.
Exactly.
It is he greatest communication tool used for team organisation since the inception of the GAA, every team has one, From Inter county to Junior Z, its excellent and it will not be changed.
GDPR was not meant for this, people taking it to the extreme.
It's the new snowflake world we are now in.
Quote from: highorlow on January 31, 2020, 11:11:02 AM
It's the new snowflake world we are now in.
You will offend J70. ;D
We've made the move to Heja for team communication, some nice functionality like schedule planner where parents can indicate if their child is going / not going. No more counting thumbs up on WhatsApp. Only thing I can see lacking is the ability to post videos.
Quote from: BenDover on February 03, 2020, 08:40:34 AM
We've made the move to Heja for team communication, some nice functionality like schedule planner where parents can indicate if their child is going / not going. No more counting thumbs up on WhatsApp. Only thing I can see lacking is the ability to post videos.
Congratulations. Your club is now engaged in delivering messages to its members through an untrusted and inconvenient communications channel.
You can enjoy, for now, the fact that you're flying under the radar with the GAA's top brass, while trading off their lack of interest in this platform, with your members' lack of interest in this platform.
Quote from: BenDover on February 03, 2020, 08:40:34 AM
We've made the move to Heja for team communication, some nice functionality like schedule planner where parents can indicate if their child is going / not going. No more counting thumbs up on WhatsApp. Only thing I can see lacking is the ability to post videos.
I'm in four underage groups and I will admit it's a real pain when about 50 parents reply to each group. Plus there is a number who will post photos and videos of the games, teams and players. I would imagine that's one of the issues that could be a problem (under child protection rules).
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
Quote from: Last Caress on February 03, 2020, 05:28:10 PM
Plus there is a number who will post photos and videos of the games, teams and players.
I can't honestly see what the problem is with videos of games being freely available online.
Quote from: five points on February 04, 2020, 08:34:57 AM
Quote from: Last Caress on February 03, 2020, 05:28:10 PM
Plus there is a number who will post photos and videos of the games, teams and players.
I can't honestly see what the problem is with videos of games being freely available online.
I believe his gripe is not related to the contents of videos (and photos) but to the volume of them posted in parents' groups.
Something that can be quickly knocked on the head with a club / admin policy.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 04, 2020, 08:56:47 AM
I believe his gripe is not related to the contents of videos (and photos) but to the volume of them posted in parents' groups.
Something that can be quickly knocked on the head with a club / admin policy.
"No posting of extraneous or unnecessary stuff in our whatsapp groups" is a difficult one to enforce. None of this is a problem once users mute their app notifications.
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
Quote from: thebackbar1 on February 04, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
I agree with above on some people having legitimate concerns about giving out there phone number to a large group of people.
I think the gaa are also covering there *ss by advising groups not to use whatsapp.
If a person raised an objection that they where being pestered by someone that got there number from there kids WhatsApp group or that little Johnnie kicking a point is being forwarded to a group of people they do not know the GAA hierarchy can hold there hands up and say 'nothing to do with us, they are breaking GAA official policy'.
Quote from: thebackbar1 on February 04, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
Good ole GAA HQ.
They tell you what you can't use but currently offer no viable alternatives.
We're having to look at updating our website to include SMS functionality and allow each team manager access to his/her group only. Parents will be able to receive messages but not respond like they currently do and that's probably a good thing as my phone never stops with thumbs up and the likes over 8, 9 teams and the likes.
Don't want to be sexist but females seem to more impulsive when it comes to responding and then it all kicks off.
This is quite common
"Sorry wee Jonny won't make the blitz on Saturday, he's got a dose of the runs"
"Sadie, that's terrible, hope he gets better soon and doesn't make a mess of your new bathroom tiles""Thanks Bridie, I know, just hoping none of the rest get it as well as the washing machine is on two, three times a day already"
Sadie, That bug was going round the school it seems, touch wood, my wee Timmy has avoided it so far, but thinking of you all at this trying time.
Here's hoping your family avoid it Jen..it's terrible,
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thumbs_Up_Hand_Sign_Emoji_large.png?v=1571606063)
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2020, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: thebackbar1 on February 04, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
Good ole GAA HQ.
They tell you what you can't use but currently offer no viable alternatives.
We're having to look at updating our website to include SMS functionality and allow each team manager access to his/her group only. Parents will be able to receive messages but not respond like they currently do and that's probably a good thing as my phone never stops with thumbs up and the likes over 8, 9 teams and the likes.
Don't want to be sexist but females seem to more impulsive when it comes to responding and then it all kicks off.
This is quite common
"Sorry wee Jonny won't make the blitz on Saturday, he's got a dose of the runs"
"Sadie, that's terrible, hope he gets better soon and doesn't make a mess of your new bathroom tiles"
"Thanks Bridie, I know, just hoping none of the rest get it as well as the washing machine is on two, three times a day already"
Sadie, That bug was going round the school it seems, touch wood, my wee Timmy has avoided it so far, but thinking of you all at this trying time.
Here's hoping your family avoid it Jen..it's terrible,
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thumbs_Up_Hand_Sign_Emoji_large.png?v=1571606063)
lol thats funny buts it so right. get well soon, get well soon jesus christ lol
Quote from: thebackbar1 on February 04, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
1. Privacy and visibility settings are defined in an agreement between WhatsApp and the end user. It is nothing to do with the GAA. By all means step away from Whatapp if you're concerned by these things, but do not make it a GAA issue.
2. Anybody who wants to get a hold of another local person's phone number will never need to be added into a juvenile football group chat, to accomplish such a goal. One or two calls/messages to their friends in the area is all that's needed. A person's right to anonymity is primarily dictated by their own actions.
Johnnycool, surely you have to agree that it's the admins of a group chat who set the standards for acceptable conversation in a chat?
It's really not that difficult to set a few guidelines around keeping chat on-topic.
——
I'm also in a little bit of shock to hear that clubs are reverting to SMS and email alternatives.
There has been an official GAA policy of not paying managers since day 1 of the Association, yet pretty much every club is happy to ignore that rule. Meanwhile, clubs are determined to make the lives of their mentors and members more complicated, on the back of a recommendation.
Classic GAA crossed wires.
Note also that you can configure whatsapp groups where only admins can post to the group !
Quote from: thewobbler on February 04, 2020, 11:47:28 AM
Johnnycool, surely you have to agree that it's the admins of a group chat who set the standards for acceptable conversation in a chat?
It's really not that difficult to set a few guidelines around keeping chat on-topic.
——
I'm also in a little bit of shock to hear that clubs are reverting to SMS and email alternatives.
There has been an official GAA policy of not paying managers since day 1 of the Association, yet pretty much every club is happy to ignore that rule. Meanwhile, clubs are determined to make the lives of their mentors and members more complicated, on the back of a recommendation.
Classic GAA crossed wires.
Trust me wobbler all parents were brought in a the start of last year and our policies to what and what shouldn't be put on messaging and social media was discussed and agreed and I think it lasted as long as first holy communion, I kid you not.
Females just can't help themselves..........
Quote from: johnnycool on February 04, 2020, 11:35:15 AM
Quote from: thebackbar1 on February 04, 2020, 11:13:24 AM
Quote from: The PRO on February 04, 2020, 07:32:42 AM
I have it on good authority from somebody quite senior working in the Data Protection Commission that they have never been asked their opinion on this by the GAA and that if they were the status quo could very easily be allowed to remain in place simply by asking people for permission to opt in to a group or groups.
I'm not a GDPR expert, but I guess one of the concerns is that when you join your kid up for the u10s you're not being informed that your number is going to be added to the u10s whatsapp group where every other parent parent can view your number. I do think this is a legitimate concern for some people. The local school teacher may not wish for everyone to view their mobile number. I have seen some prominent GDPR experts whose opinion i respect on twitter saying the gaa are right in regard to their concerns.
However GAA HQ seem very naive to think they can build their own inhouse communications system that will need to be secure and user friendly.
Good ole GAA HQ.
They tell you what you can't use but currently offer no viable alternatives.
We're having to look at updating our website to include SMS functionality and allow each team manager access to his/her group only. Parents will be able to receive messages but not respond like they currently do and that's probably a good thing as my phone never stops with thumbs up and the likes over 8, 9 teams and the likes.
Don't want to be sexist but females seem to more impulsive when it comes to responding and then it all kicks off.
This is quite common
"Sorry wee Jonny won't make the blitz on Saturday, he's got a dose of the runs"
"Sadie, that's terrible, hope he gets better soon and doesn't make a mess of your new bathroom tiles"
"Thanks Bridie, I know, just hoping none of the rest get it as well as the washing machine is on two, three times a day already"
Sadie, That bug was going round the school it seems, touch wood, my wee Timmy has avoided it so far, but thinking of you all at this trying time.
Here's hoping your family avoid it Jen..it's terrible,
(https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1061/1924/products/Thumbs_Up_Hand_Sign_Emoji_large.png?v=1571606063)
The dreaded thumbs up.... the curse of every good WhatsApp group.
We had a message go out about availability of players for a tournament at U10 level. One parent posted a number of holiday snaps (by the pool) showing that wee micky was on holiday and not be available. That in turn triggered a raft of reply messages about the holiday. All parents at the start of the year were told to refrain from using the group for social posts.
There is just no talking to some people.
I think below gets round the privacy concerns with WhatsApp. If you create a broadcast list in WhatsApp then send a message to all the members in the list 'Who is available for the match Friday?' each member of the group gets an individual message and replies only goes to you.
https://blog.interactiveschools.com/blog/whatsapp-broadcast-what-do-you-need-to-know
You can keep using the broadcast list every week once you send your first message by replying to your first message without having to re-enter all the members names (and can remove members from the broadcast list).
Have many of you tried using Zoom to connect with your teams? Is putting a password on the meetings enough to keep it from being hacked, provided intended audience doesn't share the password?
Heard of terrible reports over the weekend for a nursery session.
People haven't been setting passcodes and have been sharing the links on social media.
I was reading about the issues they are having but the porn etc some dubious people are putting into random meetings seem not to have been hacking but have been meetings with no passwords and either people a) guessing the meeting id or b) getting the meeting link from social media.
Data privacy etc is another story mind you.
Quote from: imtommygunn on April 06, 2020, 09:32:00 AM
People haven't been setting passcodes and have been sharing the links on social media.
I was reading about the issues they are having but the porn etc some dubious people are putting into random meetings seem not to have been hacking but have been meetings with no passwords and either people a) guessing the meeting id or b) getting the meeting link from social media.
Data privacy etc is another story mind you.
The GAA was quite explicit at the outset of all this that ALL activities were to be ceased. One club in Dublin decided to organise their nursery via Zoom. From what I understand they had a dedicated Whatsapp group that parents agreed to join, were notified of the time/date and then 10 minutes beforehand were provided the link and password. Meeting was locked shortly after start time and attendees monitored. They publicised the success on their social media and then other clubs tried to "keep up with the Jones's" but weren't as rigorous in their approach. I believe in one case the login details were shared on social media and when people joined they got a horrible, nasty shock to put it mildly. It wasn't hacking from what I have heard.
Of course you can understand clubs wanting to maintain links with young players but I think the advice of the Association should be followed. This is unnecessary embarrassment for the GAA at a time when there are more important things to worry about.
True, I think it was a nursery group. What is the value of doing this on-line anyway. Never mind the GAA's complete shutdown directive, just let the kids play outside in the garden etc. by themselves.
Free play - they'll learn more through that than a 'training session' on-line. Get a parent to kick a ball with them, play tag and hide- and-seek etc.
Let kids be kids.
Quote from: marty34 on April 06, 2020, 12:19:43 PM
True, I think it was a nursery group. What is the value of doing this on-line anyway. Never mind the GAA's complete shutdown directive, just let the kids play outside in the garden etc. by themselves.
Free play - they'll learn more through that than a 'training session' on-line. Get a parent to kick a ball with them, play tag and hide- and-seek etc.
Let kids be kids.
There are people across the word who think you can solve any problem, or substitute any void, through modern technology.
What these people fail to realise is that technology only serves a purpose if it improves a pre-existing process or outcome. A dollop of commonsense is all you ever need to rule out most suggestions and possibilities, but people have become obsessed with "seeing what it's like".
Quote from: marty34 on April 06, 2020, 12:19:43 PM
True, I think it was a nursery group. What is the value of doing this on-line anyway. Never mind the GAA's complete shutdown directive, just let the kids play outside in the garden etc. by themselves.
Free play - they'll learn more through that than a 'training session' on-line. Get a parent to kick a ball with them, play tag and hide- and-seek etc.
Let kids be kids.
100%
If I see one more coach trying to remain relevant with some ridiculous drill i will have a "Falling Down' moment.
Just play and stop coaching. Sucking the fun out underage sport for years, no wonder 13 year olds can't wait to drop out.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 07, 2020, 12:44:27 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 06, 2020, 12:19:43 PM
True, I think it was a nursery group. What is the value of doing this on-line anyway. Never mind the GAA's complete shutdown directive, just let the kids play outside in the garden etc. by themselves.
Free play - they'll learn more through that than a 'training session' on-line. Get a parent to kick a ball with them, play tag and hide- and-seek etc.
Let kids be kids.
100%
If I see one more coach trying to remain relevant with some ridiculous drill i will have a "Falling Down' moment.
Just play and stop coaching. Sucking the fun out underage sport for years, no wonder 13 year olds can't wait to drop out.
I'm our minor coach this year and it's tough to be fair but I think people have to be realistic we are living in an unprecedented time and you are just going to have to cede control for a while and realise some things are bigger than your club's nursery or your U14 championship!
For our lads we have a few home S&C workouts and a Strava group for a bit of running alongside putting up the odd skill to practice from Twitter but we can't control them all the time and the only thing you can try to do is get them to keep their fitness up for when/if they come back but even still they will not be anywhere near match fitness when they come back.
No point getting stressed about it. The upside is every team will be in the same boat and there will just be so many games that it should help bring a bit of enjoyment back that's been lost I feel.
If it comes back this year, there'll be loads of games and players mad keen to play. How do you guarantee everyone plays? It'd be a good time to trial rolling subs.
Quote from: screenexile on April 07, 2020, 01:56:16 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 07, 2020, 12:44:27 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 06, 2020, 12:19:43 PM
True, I think it was a nursery group. What is the value of doing this on-line anyway. Never mind the GAA's complete shutdown directive, just let the kids play outside in the garden etc. by themselves.
Free play - they'll learn more through that than a 'training session' on-line. Get a parent to kick a ball with them, play tag and hide- and-seek etc.
Let kids be kids.
100%
If I see one more coach trying to remain relevant with some ridiculous drill i will have a "Falling Down' moment.
Just play and stop coaching. Sucking the fun out underage sport for years, no wonder 13 year olds can't wait to drop out.
I'm our minor coach this year and it's tough to be fair but I think people have to be realistic we are living in an unprecedented time and you are just going to have to cede control for a while and realise some things are bigger than your club's nursery or your U14 championship!
For our lads we have a few home S&C workouts and a Strava group for a bit of running alongside putting up the odd skill to practice from Twitter but we can't control them all the time and the only thing you can try to do is get them to keep their fitness up for when/if they come back but even still they will not be anywhere near match fitness when they come back.
No point getting stressed about it. The upside is every team will be in the same boat and there will just be so many games that it should help bring a bit of enjoyment back that's been lost I feel.
Ah no if fairness minor is a different challenge altogether, this is next biggest age for drop outs after 12 year olds. Enjoyment comes from playing - rotate heavily and be prepared to lose - your squad will be a in a good place for championship and the lads will know they all got a shot...
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
Quote from: Truth hurts on November 07, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
We use the app Heja for sending out training and matches. It's pretty decent
Quote from: Truth hurts on November 07, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
Whats wrong with whatsapp?
My sons rugby team use spond app.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 07, 2022, 12:30:16 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on November 07, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
Whats wrong with whatsapp?
Under EU Rules you cannot allow people access to other peoples contact details without permission. So if you set up a whatsapp group you can see everyone elses contact - thats one issue. You can us Whatsapp in broadcast mode though which i believe is gdpr compliant.
SPOND is one i have seen used and seems pretty good
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 07, 2022, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on November 07, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
We use the app Heja for sending out training and matches. It's pretty decent
Yeah, I started using Heja this year. Worked pretty well.
Consent is the key word. If someone consents to be part of a WhatsApp group, there's no issue at all using it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 07, 2022, 12:10:22 PM
Quote from: Truth hurts on November 07, 2022, 12:04:59 PM
Are clubs still using whatsapp for communication. Are there any othersafe app you can use for interaction
We use the app Heja for sending out training and matches. It's pretty decent
Same as us, great app. The tricky bit is managing when kids have to switch teams.