I ask this as there seems to a potential fault line there. Right wing elements in Italy. Hungary, Poland and Sweden has already left the Euro. A European army being mooted can't see Ireland being in favour (well I'd vote no).
So is Europe falling apart?
When were Sweden and Poland using the Euro?
They never used the €.
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
The likes of the EU is always bureaucratic and so has limitations. However 90% of the Irish people realise that it is desirable to be in it, most of the rest are just grumpy feckers.
If tr**p in the White House doesn't like the EU then it's obviously a good thing.
Add in Farage, Johnson, DUPUDA .....
Nothing Yankee big business would like better than a bickering Europe of small Countries that they could pick off one by one and turn them into Vassal States like Central America.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
The Eurozone will probably collapse. It is not possible to guarantee the wholeness of every Euro of debt in a system of unlimited debt. The Germans were insane to adopt neoliberalism after the Nazi experience
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
Of course it will......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M90C7FA4FYU
That 8% consisted of John Waters, a bunch of extreme right wing neo Nazis one group of whom were set up by Farage and the rest are half baked eejits or total West Brits who want to get closer to their "mainland".
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
See after Brexit happens - and what the intellectually feeble dismiss as "Project Fear" morphs into "Project Reality" - then I'd expect those numbers (wanting to remain in the EU) to climb.
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Vested interest lobby group commissions poll that gives it the result to justify its agenda shocker.
Interesting I think Hungary should be expelled. Complex problem but given their last elections weren't free and fair, I'd advocate that the EU should suspend their membership at the very least.
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Especially when you hear rumblings about a EU army and conscription for member states.
Leo and the boys have already been in talks. Shhhhh!!
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 18, 2019, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 18, 2019, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Vested interest lobby group commissions poll that gives it the result to justify its agenda shocker.
I never had you pegged for a conspiracy theorist, but that suggestion is wacky. The poll was done by Red C. Do you really imagine they would fake a poll? And fake such a huge margin of consensus?
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Just for clarity then - you ARE proposing, even in the light of the experience of the last two-and-a-half years that we should exit the EU? And the mandate for that would come from where?
Quote from: Dolph1 on February 18, 2019, 02:36:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Especially when you hear rumblings about a EU army and conscription for member states.
Leo and the boys have already been in talks. Shhhhh!!
Irish people need to face the reality that they have been getting a free ride from NATO and Britain for years.
With NATO rudderless at the moment its interests have diverged somewhat from the EU. A strong military force with your common interests is a necessary for a strong diplomatic hand which itself lends itself to improved trade deals and economic activity. The EU needs a joint military force to act in its interest to maintain its diplomatic strength
Irish people love to get in their Ivory Tower about neutrality but its because they have been allowed to live protected from reality to an extent. Nuclear Power is another one, on the one hand tut-tuting about Carbon emissions on the one hand but vehemently opposed to nuclear power on the other.
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 03:35:02 PM
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 18, 2019, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Quote from: Owenmoresider on February 18, 2019, 01:26:13 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Vested interest lobby group commissions poll that gives it the result to justify its agenda shocker.
I never had you pegged for a conspiracy theorist, but that suggestion is wacky. The poll was done by Red C. Do you really imagine they would fake a poll? And fake such a huge margin of consensus?
Everybody who wants Ireland to leave the EU is a conspiracy theorist on some level.
It goes with the territory.
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 03:36:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Just for clarity then - you ARE proposing, even in the light of the experience of the last two-and-a-half years that we should exit the EU? And the mandate for that would come from where?
Where did I say that?
By the way nobody in the 26 Cos. is " forced to vote".
Quote from: Dolph1 on February 18, 2019, 02:36:30 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 18, 2019, 01:31:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 18, 2019, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
Quote from: Hardy on February 17, 2019, 08:10:05 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on February 17, 2019, 06:36:38 PM
A country's government will say they are so happy being in the EU, but the people think differently. The Lisbon Treaty being the perfect example.
For all this EU arselicking from Dublin, a lot of ordinary Irish people don't like or trust the EU.
Fake news.
https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/ (https://www.europeanmovement.ie/programmes/ireland-and-the-eu-poll/)
Well of course people are going to think it's great being in the eu since the brexit vote, and the scaremongering that's happened since. If people are told something is bad, the vast majority are going to believe it, even if it's complete bollix.
So, having experienced the last two-and-a-half years, your considered conclusion is that the 92% of Irish people who want to remain in the EU are wrong and we should embark on an exit programme?
While being in the EU has its advantages, it's not all it's cracked up to be. It gives with one hand and takes with the other.
Irish people voted down two referendums regarding Europe, and were forced to vote again. So you can't tell me Irish people aren't just a tad cynical when it comes to the EU.
Especially when you hear rumblings about a EU army and conscription for member states.
Leo and the boys have already been in talks. Shhhhh!!
An EU Army is a good thing. Especially for Ireland.
If you say so, trailer ::)
How fucked will Ireland be if & when Corporate Taxes are harmonised across the EU? Greater integration of Europe will be it's downfall.
Tax harmonisation would make it harder to get new business, but there wouldn't be sny real reason for all the companies to leave. Some would leave, some would pay more tax. Not great, but not catastrophic either.
Quote from: armaghniac on February 19, 2019, 01:35:12 AM
Tax harmonisation would make it harder to get new business, but there wouldn't be sny real reason for all the companies to leave. Some would leave, some would pay more tax. Not great, but not catastrophic either.
Ireland will still be the English speaking gateway to Europe.
Yeah, apart from the stratospheric wages that are paid compared to other areas of the EU, companies haven't got form for shifting operations to save a few bob or anything.
The more fucked we get the further away any prospects for Irish Unity as well have less money for the Poor relations.
As Iceland have proven, No one cares when money is involved.
Any initial split will be commercial and lure of remuneration and profit will override any split.
Those on low wages though will be affected most as costs of certain things such as food, will rise.
Reunification will be a reality, but I'd be worried that Ireland's negotiators with eu and British gov on getting parachute payments will be worse than British Brexit negotiators and we will end up worse off financially, where we should be in the black and in a great position such as Japan and Germany post ww2.
For work, I go to the European parliament in Strasbourg once or twice a year.
It is a beautiful city, the Cathedral quarter is really lovely all year round. Strasbourg was selected as the home of the parliament because of its geography - Alsace was the disputed territory between France and Germany, the touch paper for regional conflict throughout the centuries and it changed hands multiple times.
Because of this Strasbourg has as much a Germanic, huddled, middle European look to it as it has that wide lens, boulevardier French style. The parliament itself is on the outskirts of the city.
If you know your history you can appreciate the difficulties of the European project - the utter difference between countries, from language, to style, to attitude, to politics. Coherence is immensely hard to achieve. But if you sit in one of the cafes and realise that 75 years ago, tanks with Swastikas were rolling across the tram lines in the Place De la Republique as they were chased out of Alsace by Patton's army, then it is easy to comprehend how fragile and how precious a Europe with democracy is. And how easy it could be for us all to return to that.
The parliament building is as massive and confusingly laid out as legend has it. I've been there 6 times now and I still get lost in it. But is also beautiful, an astonishing architectural and practical achievement. I work in media and the facilities and organisation are amazing.
When I first entered it, I was as cynical of bureaucracy/corrupt politicians as others on this thread. But one thing that struck me was how deeply people feel about the institutions there. None of the MEPs I have met have appeared to me to there simply for the gravy train. I have met MEPs from across the strata - German Greens, English Tories and UKIPers, Italian Lega, SNP, Spanish Podemos - and they all believe in the importance, for good or ill, of the European project. So it is very far from the stultifying, boring place that I thought it would be. Sure, there is self interest, there is in any large institution. But in general, it works - plenary sessions are opened, debates are held, votes taken, laws made.
I think the financial crisis, rightly, has made us suspicious of the EU. They certainly hung us out to dry in many ways, to protect larger interests in Germany, France, even as far as America. And in so doing, and in their willingness to accept that corporate interests had to be prioritised in order for some greater good (stability of the euro, of central banks, of an out-moded brand of rapacious capitalism), they have scarred working people throughout Europe. And you don't get the rise of right wing populism without that scarring, without a sense of injustice, that things are stacked against the most vulnerable.
However, I also think lessons are slowly being learned. The darkness into which Hungary and, just behind them, Poland, are slipping is in contrast to the brightness of the original vision of the Treaty of Rome. If the past 15 years have taught us anything it is that the system must serve the people, rather then the people propping up the system. If neo liberalism is not the answer - and we see from Davos this year that it is dawning on the elites that it is not - then institutions like the EU can be instrumental in that change. Remember, it is the EU who prosecuted Apple for tax avoidance. They also formulated GDPR which has massive implications for big tech. When its power is used in the right way it is extraordinarily effective.
People are strange, forgetful and superstitious creatures. They think that just because cappuccinos in cafes and cheap clothes in H&M were available today, they will be available tomorrow. They forget that the modern, consumerist society (which has massive flaws, and which must transition to something far more sustainable) that we have now is based on a shared understanding of our rights, our dignity as humans, and our capacity to tolerate the other. If that understanding is not renewed in every generation, then it can disappear instantly - because after all, it is only an ideal. The only German run concentration camp established on French soil during WWII was in Alsace. 22,000 people died there. The EC/EU was a direct response to that barbarity.
Criticise it? Yes. Reform it? Absolutely. Abandon it? At our own peril.
Quote from: easytiger95 Criticise it? Yes. Reform it? Absolutely. Abandon it? At our own peril.
Well said, Easytiger
Quote from: bennydorano on February 19, 2019, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah, apart from the stratospheric wages that are paid compared to other areas of the EU, companies haven't got form for shifting operations to save a few bob or anything.
Most of these companies in Ireland now are more concerned with the availability of staff than their exact remuneration, the Dell, Fruit of the Loom etc are already gone. There are already EU countries will lower wages and lower corporation tax rates than Ireland, there is no great loss of companies there now. Google does not move from California to Tennessee because the wages are lower.
In any case, we'll soon be adding a low wage component to the jurisdiction, they can just move to Derry.
When is Derry coming to make us the 27 Cos.??
Excellent post by Easytiger.