McQueen to make film on Bobby Sands
Turner Prize-winning artist Steve McQueen has confirmed his first feature film - about Irish Republican Army (IRA) hunger striker Bobby Sands.
Hunger focuses on the last six weeks in the life of Sands, leader of the 1981 IRA hunger strike at the Maze prison.
Filming begins in Northern Ireland in September.
McQueen, the film`s director and co-writer, is best known for a 1999 Turner Prize-winning video inspired by Buster Keaton.
The video artist said the story had modern relevance.
He said: "Hunger will be a film with international contemporary resonance. The body as site of political warfare is becoming a more familiar phenomenon.
"It is the final act of desperation, your own body is your last resource for protest. One uses what one has, rightly or wrongly.
"What I want to convey is something you can`t find in books or archive, the ordinariness and extraordinariness of life in this prison. Yet also the film is an abstraction in a certain way, a meditation on what it is like to die for a cause."
The film is being co-financed by Channel 4 for broadcast on TV next year, while worldwide sales rights are being sold in Cannes.
Jan Younghusband, Channel 4 Commissioning Editor for Arts, said: "Channel 4 regularly commissions new work from artists for the screen, galleries, public spaces and theatre.
"Steve McQueen is an exceptional artist and filmmaker whose work in galleries has transformed our experience of the visual arts.
"I am delighted to commission his first feature film which revisits, through the unique perspective of an artist, this crucial moment in Anglo-Irish history."
Source: u.tv
Sounds interesting, I just hope the have it factually correct, as many people seem to take the film versions of life stories as fact.
It'll be about his last six weeks apparently.
So, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims), but hopefully something about how his bravery was also foolhardy and exploited by the republican movement's leadership.
If it's Hollywood, he'll probably tunnel out and become Leader of Sinn Féin and Taoiseach of a United Ireland.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 16, 2007, 02:40:13 PM
If it's Hollywood, he'll probably tunnel out and become Leader of Sinn Féin and Taoiseach of a United Ireland.
Getting him mixed up with Gerry there AZ ;)
After the last few weeks, I wouldn't be surprised if that actually did happen. Though more likely he'd become leader of the DUP and Queen of England.
Quote from: GweylTah on May 16, 2007, 02:39:09 PM
It'll be about his last six weeks apparently.
So, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims), but hopefully something about how his bravery was also foolhardy and exploited by the republican movement's leadership.
::)
....or what caused him to have to resort to that either
Quote from: GweylTah on May 16, 2007, 02:39:09 PM
It'll be about his last six weeks apparently.
So, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims), but hopefully something about how his bravery was also foolhardy and exploited by the republican movement's leadership.
Yeah presumably it will be made exactly to your personal interpretation of events.
I'm sure they couldnt find anyone more qualified to tell the story ::)
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 02:48:57 PM
Quote from: GweylTah on May 16, 2007, 02:39:09 PM
It'll be about his last six weeks apparently.
So, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims), but hopefully something about how his bravery was also foolhardy and exploited by the republican movement's leadership.
Yeah presumably it will be made exactly to your personal interpretation of events.
I'm sure they couldnt find anyone more qualified to tell the story ::)
It says in the article that it's only about the last 6 weeks.
Yeah we know, its in the comment from Gweltyah you quoted.
QuoteSo, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims)
Possession of firearms. Hardly heavyweight terrorist activity!
Quote from: Star Spangler on May 16, 2007, 03:01:12 PM
QuoteSo, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims)
Possession of firearms. Hardly heavyweight terrorist activity!
Aye and Al Capone was only lifted for tax evasion. ::)
I wonder if the movie will mention the fact that after his death, the Iranian government renamed the street on which the British Embassy is located as "Bobby Sands" Street. Strangely enough, if you look up the Embassy they don't use the real street name on any official documents or references! :D
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:02:06 PM
Aye and Al Capone was only lifted for tax evasion. ::)
Sammy thats pathetic, he was there for possession of firearms.
If you have some evidence to the contrary provide it, otherwise stop slandering the dead.
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 03:15:22 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:02:06 PM
Aye and Al Capone was only lifted for tax evasion. ::)
Sammy thats pathetic, he was there for possession of firearms.
If you have some evidence to the contrary provide it, otherwise stop slandering the dead.
Firstly you can't slander the dead, secondly he was the officer commanding the Belfast Brigade of the Provisional IRA at a time when they were destroying Belfast and murdering people on a daily basis, so I'm not sure how I've slandered him (even if he was alive).
firstly dont be a smart arse.
Secondly he was in for possession of firearms, this is a fact, come up with some facts about what else he did?
Will you be going to see the film?
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 03:23:54 PM
firstly dont be a smart arse.
Secondly he was in for possession of firearms, this is a fact, come up with some facts about what else he did?
Have a look at one of David McKittrick's books and you'll find lists of those murdered during Sands 'leadership'.
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 03:23:54 PM
Will you be going to see the film?
It's a TV movie and I'll probably watch it, as I've an interest in Irish history. However the intial write-up sounds more like an art project rather than any sort of historical document.
I thought it was a wind up with the director being named Steve McQueen.
If it's the last 6 weeks of the hunger strike then it will start with the lead up to him being elected MP.
The world's most famous IRA man.
His Holiness, it's no big secret what Sands was involved in.
He was an active member of the IRA.
Actual proof was a handgun found in a car with 5 occupants, 14 years sentence.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 03:37:11 PM
QuoteSecondly he was in for possession of firearms, this is a fact, come up with some facts about what else he did?
QuoteHave a look at one of David McKittrick's books and you'll find lists of those murdered during Sands 'leadership'.
Question not answered.
What question isn't answered?
"His Holiness, it's no big secret what Sands was involved in.
He was an active member of the IRA.
Actual proof was a handgun found in a car with 5 occupants, 14 years sentence"
so theres no proof of him doing anything else.
Sammy would rather I wasted my time trawling bookshops and reading for a few hours rather than admit this.
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 03:43:56 PM
"His Holiness, it's no big secret what Sands was involved in.
He was an active member of the IRA.
Actual proof was a handgun found in a car with 5 occupants, 14 years sentence"
so theres no proof of him doing anything else.
Sammy would rather I wasted my time trawling bookshops and reading for a few hours rather than admit this.
So you think that the OC of the Belfast IRA wasn't involved in the activities of the Belfast IRA. ::)
As soon as i seen this thread go up i knew straight away that the two, sammy g and gwanker would be to the fore.
I hope their oppisition was as strong when the press release regarding Paisleys movie was announced
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 03:45:25 PM
QuoteQuote
Secondly he was in for possession of firearms, this is a fact, come up with some facts about what else he did?
Quote
Have a look at one of David McKittrick's books and you'll find lists of those murdered during Sands 'leadership'.
Question not answered.
What question isn't answered?
How many questions can you see?
He asked me for some facts about Sand's activities. I directed him to a well known and authoritative source, how is that not answering his question?
Quote from: Bensars on May 16, 2007, 03:48:23 PM
As soon as i seen this thread go up i knew straight away that the two, sammy g and gwanker would be to the fore.
I hope their oppisition was as strong when the press release regarding Paisleys movie was announced
Certainly was from me. Paisley is was and always will be a hateful cnut and I've never said anything else.
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:48:55 PM
He asked me for some facts about Sand's activities. I directed him to a well known and authoritative source, how is that not answering his question?
No it is most certainly not answering a question.
More like saying "go look for this book for the answers"
As I said, you made a comment you couldnt back up, I aint going reading books for you to get you off the hook!
And I am not saying he did nothing, I am merely asking exactly what you think he did
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:19:10 PM
secondly he was the officer commanding the Belfast Brigade of the Provisional IRA at a time
No he wasn't.
Quote from: Donagh on May 16, 2007, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:19:10 PM
secondly he was the officer commanding the Belfast Brigade of the Provisional IRA at a time
No he wasn't.
OK, thanks. So all those memorials, biographies, commemorations etc etc are wrong and Donagh's right. ::)
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
Quote from: Donagh on May 16, 2007, 03:53:39 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:19:10 PM
secondly he was the officer commanding the Belfast Brigade of the Provisional IRA at a time
No he wasn't.
OK, thanks. So all those memorials, biographies, commemorations etc etc are wrong and Donagh's right. ::)
Have you read the biographies? The one's I've read don't mention him being "officer commanding the Belfast Brigade".
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 16, 2007, 03:53:34 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:48:55 PM
He asked me for some facts about Sand's activities. I directed him to a well known and authoritative source, how is that not answering his question?
No it is most certainly not answering a question.
More like saying "go look for this book for the answers"
As I said, you made a comment you couldnt back up, I aint going reading books for you to get you off the hook!
And I am not saying he did nothing, I am merely asking exactly what you think he did
What he did is well documented by many sources (of which McKitterick is one), I haven't got a list of his 'activities' to hand, so I referred you to a reputable source. I'll dig out the book when I get half an hour and give you a full and comprehensive list.
I dont doubt it!
::)
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
OK, thanks. So all those memorials, biographies, commemorations etc etc are wrong and Donagh's right. ::)
FWIW he was OC of all the prisoners in Long Kesh. AFAIA he was not OC of the Belfast Brigade.
Just out of curiosity what do people think would have happened if Bobby Sands had survived the hunger strikes, would he now be sharing the big power table with Ian Paisley, or would he have followed the path of his brother-in-law McKevitt. Was the Strikes the catalyst for the next 20 years or so of the troubles or was that going to happen anyway. We will never know maybe there would have been another outcome.
I know he stood as an MP while on the Hunger Strike as a protest and got a huge vote, but had he a real calling to make it as a politician like Adams or McGuinness or David Irvine who turned their backs on the gun and pushed for a peaceful solution.
"Though more likely he'd become leader of the DUP and Queen of England."
Quote from: Kerry Mike on May 16, 2007, 04:38:05 PM
Just out of curiosity what do people think would have happened if Bobby Sands had survived the hunger strikes, would he now be sharing the big power table with Ian Paisley, or would he have followed the path of his brother-in-law McKevitt. Was the Strikes the catalyst for the next 20 years or so of the troubles or was that going to happen anyway. We will never know maybe there would have been another outcome.
I know he stood as an MP while on the Hunger Strike as a protest and got a huge vote, but had he a real calling to make it as a politician like Adams or McGuinness or David Irvine who turned their backs on the gun and pushed for a peaceful solution.
Bobby sands was an ordinary man who found himself in similar circumstances to hundreds of young men across the province. Living in Rathcool, he watched as his parents home was targeted time and time again for no other reason other than they were catholics. He choose, writely or wrongly to join the armed struggle against British oppression in Ireland.
I have no doubt what path Bobby sands would have choosen to take. He was a man who educated himself and hundreds of others inside the Kesh, and yearned for simple"Human Rights" for his people. Yes the conflict was about British Imperialism and their presence in Ireland but it was about much more.
How cirmcumstances have changed that: There is no RUC, Republicans are in power sharing government, noth south institutions etc. etc..
I rekon he would have settled for today.
You only have to look what paths his 3 closest compadres took. Big Gerry, OC at the time Bic McFarlane and Jennifer McCann.
"The revenge will be the laughter of our children."
In June 1972, the family were intimidated out of their home in Doonbeg Drive, Rathcoole and moved into the newly built Twinbrook estate on the fringe of nationalist West Belfast. Bernadette again recalled: We had suffered intimidation for about eighteen months before we were actually put out. We had always been used to having Protestant friends. Bobby had gone around with Catholics and Protestants, but it ended up when everything erupted, that the friends he went about with for years were the same ones who helped to put his family out of their home.
As well as being intimidated out of his job and his home being under threat Bobby also suffered personal attacks from the loyalists.
At eighteen Bobby joined the Republican Movement. Bernadette says: .. 'he was just at the age when he was beginning to become aware of things happening around him. He more or less just said right, this is where I'm going to take up. A couple of his cousins had been arrested and interned. Booby felt that he should get involved and start doing something. '
Bobby himself wrote. "My life now centered around sleepless nights and stand-bys dodging the Brits and calming nerves to go out on operations. But the people stood by us. The people not only opened the doors of their homes to lend us a hand but they opened their hearts to us. I learned that without the people we could not survive and I knew that I owed them everything.
In October 1972, he was arrested. Four handguns were found in a house he was staying in and he was charged with possession. He spent the next three years in the cages of Long Kesh where he had political prisoner status. During this time Bobby read widely and taught himself Irish which he was later to teach the other blanket men in the H-Blocks.
Released in 1976 Bobby returned to his family in Twinbrook. He reported back to his local unit and straight back into the continuing struggle: 'Quite a lot of things had changed some parts of the ghettos had completely disappeared and others were in the process of being removed. The war was still forging ahead although tactics and strategy had changed. The British government was now seeking to 'Ulsterise' the war which included the attempted criminalisation of the IRA and attempted normalisation of the war situation.'
Bobby set himself to work tackling the social issues which affected the Twinbrook area. Here he became a community activist. According to Bernadette, 'When he got out of jail that first time our estate had no Green Cross, no Sinn Fein, nor anything like that. He was involved in the Tenants' Association... He got the black taxis to run to Twinbrook because the bus service at that time was inadequate. It got to the stage where people were coming to the door looking for Bobby to put up ramps on the roads in case cars were going too fast and would knock the children down.'
Within six months Bobby was arrested again. There had been a bomb attack on the Balmoral Furniture Company at Dunmurry, followed by a gun-battle in which two men were wounded. Bobby was in a car near the scene with three other young men. The RUC captured them and found a revolver in the car.
Sammy I've been through this with you before. Sand's only spent about 9 months of his time in the IRA outside of jail.
I'd love to know when he killed all the people you say he did.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 16, 2007, 07:00:10 PM
Sammy I've been through this with you before. Sand's only spent about 9 months of his time in the IRA outside of jail.
I'd love to know when he killed all the people you say he did.
FFS try reading the bit you've just posted. What do you think the 'operations' were that he was involved in, how do you think he 'forged ahead with the war'? Was he helping oul dolls across the road or delivering meals on wheels or something? He was the OC of the Provos in Belfast at a time when the Provos were slaughtering people on a daily basis, to try and suggest that he wasn't involved in that slaughter would be laughable if it wasn't such a serious issue.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 07:48:14 PM
FFS, have you not got that half an hour you were talking about? I'm waiting all day for you to back up your idle comments.
What idle comments?
Boys a'dear..if you keep paying him attention - he'll keep posting his crap!
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 07:31:53 PM
He was the OC of the Provos in Belfast at a time when the Provos
No he wasn't
Quote
FFS try reading the bit you've just posted. What do you think the 'operations' were that he was involved in, how do you think he 'forged ahead with the war'? Was he helping oul dolls across the road or delivering meals on wheels or something? He was the OC of the Provos in Belfast at a time when the Provos were slaughtering people on a daily basis, to try and suggest that he wasn't involved in that slaughter would be laughable if it wasn't such a serious issue.
I couldn't tell you what he was at but he was 18 years old at the time and had just joined the IRA 4 months (at most) so I'd imagine it wasn't a lot!!
You've yet to provide a credible source to say he was OC of the belfast brigade.
Strangely enough Sammy's never as quick to provide the evidence he so often demands of others.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 08:31:41 PM
You have been claiming that someone has been involved in things that he was never found guilty for. When questioned on this, you promise that you will produce relevant facts to back this up "when you get half an hour". You have had 4 and a half hours and you still have not found any way to back your claims up.
Christ do you ever stop talking shite. Sands was OC of the Belfast Provos, the Belfast Provos killed/bombed/maimed hundreds of people at the time he was OC. Even the sycophantic shite that pog posted, states that he was involved in 'operations' and progressing the 'war'.
As far as the evidence, I'm still in work and will be for a while, as I've already said, when I get time I'll produce the list of people slaughtered, while Sands was involved. If you don't want to wait, try the Cain website, or the McKitterick book that I've already mentioned.
Quote from: Donagh on May 16, 2007, 08:42:38 PM
Strangely enough Sammy's never as quick to provide the evidence he so often demands of others.
See previous answer.
p.s. Still waiting for the list of loyalist bigots on OWC, when you get a minute.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 09:40:46 PM
Don't bother your hole actually because I can't listen to anymore of the shite you have to say. You continue to say the same things over and over without any back up. I ask you to back them up and you say I'm talking shite. Go and crawl back into that shite ridden hole you unfortunately slimed your way out of.
When all else fails go for personal abuse.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 09:45:36 PM
When all else fails, just tell the person he is talking shite when he has done no more than to ask questions!
You're talking shite because you didn't bother to read what I wrote before you posted about it.
Quote from: SammyG on May 16, 2007, 09:01:39 PM
See previous answer.
He wasn't even OC of the Dunmurray unit he was arrested with never mind OC of Belfast. Still waiting for your evidence...
The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.
For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.
Right lads, here's a list of the murders carried out by Sand's unit. I've limited the list to the dates from pog's post and the area that Sand's lived and 'operated'. I haven't included things like Bloody Friday or IRA murders outside the West Belfast/Twinbrook/Andytown area. I also haven't included his activities pre-June 1972 or after his release from Long Kesh in 1976 as I don't have the exact dates.
June - Oct 1972 Source http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/index.html)
Quote06 June 1972 George Lee (22) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) foot patrol, Ballymurphy Parade, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
06 June 1972 Charles Coleman (29) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) mobile patrol, Tullymore Gardens, Andersonstown, Belfast.
08 June 1972 Jean Smith (24) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while in her car at bus terminus, Glen Road, Andersonstown, Belfast.
09 June 1972 Roy Stanton (27) Protestant
Status: Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Off duty. Shot as he left his workplace, Autolite factory, Finaghy Road North, Belfast.
19 June 1972 Desmond Mackin (37) Catholic
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot during altercation with Irish Republican Army (IRA) members in Cracked Cup Social Club, Leeson Street, Lower Falls, Belfast. Official Irish Republican Army (OIRA) / Irish Republican Army (IRA) feud.
07 July 1972 Samuel Robinson (19) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot immediately after crashing into Irish Republican Army (IRA) roadblock, Cavendish Street, Falls, Belfast.
13 July 1972 Martin Rooney (22) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) mobile patrol, Clonard Street, Lower Falls, Belfast.
13 July 1972 Kenneth Mogg (29) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) mobile patrol, Dunville Park, Falls Road, Belfast.
14 July 1972 Robert Williams-Wynn (24) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper during gun battle, Lenadoon, Belfast.
14 July 1972 Jane McIntyre (64) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot outside her home, Highpark Drive, during Irish Republican Army (IRA) sniper attack on the nearby Black Mountain School British Army (BA) base, Highfield, Belfast.
15 July 1972 Kenneth Canham (24) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) foot patrol, Lenadoon Avenue, Belfast.
18 July 1972 James Jones (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while inside Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
18 July 1972 Thomas Mills (50) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Security man. Found shot inside Finlay's factory, Ballygomartin Road, Belfast.
19 July 1972 Henry Gray (71) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot trying to stop bomb attack on Whitehorse Inn, Springfield Road, Belfast.
20 July 1972 Robert Leggett (50) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot attempting to stop bomb attack on his shop, Springfield Road, Belfast
24 July 1972 Brian Thomas (20) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper, while in Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
04 August 1972 David Card (21) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot while on British Army (BA) foot patrol, Commedagh Drive, Andersonstown, Belfast.
14 August 1972 David Storey (36) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Killed by booby trap bomb left outside Casement Park British Army (BA) base, Andersonstown, Belfast.
14 August 1972 Brian Hope (20) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Killed by booby trap bomb left outside Casement Park British Army (BA) base, Andersonstown, Belfast.
19 August 1972 James Neill (44) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Found shot, Elswick Street, off Springfield Road, Belfast.
28 August 1972 Ian Morrell (29) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while on British Army (BA) foot patrol, Beechmount Avenue, Belfast.
06 September 1972 Samuel Boyde (20) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Found shot in entry off La Salle Drive, Falls, Belfast.
20 September 1972 Francis Bell (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Died three days after being shot while on British Army (BA) foot patrol, Springhill Avenue, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.
What agenda? Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA, at a time when they were slaughtering people on a daily basis, this has been documented many times
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.
Aye you're right, being opposed to the celebration of sectarian slaughter definitely makes me a bigot. ::)
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 03:06:06 PM
QuoteSo, presumably nothing about what got him to be inside in the first place (or the victims)
Prove it otherwise it's slander
try never to become a law student, won't you? First of all, slander almost always refers to spoken word, not written. Even if it was spoken, how on earth could it possibly be slander?
I deliberately avoided looking at this thread until now because I was sure it would be full of all this shiity bickering. Now that a few people like Gweyltah are stirring wo wind people up, we have idiots like this coming out with "prove it". Grow up for f**k's sake.
Quote from: hardstation on May 16, 2007, 03:57:53 PM
QuoteOK, thanks. So all those memorials, biographies, commemorations etc etc are wrong and Donagh's right.
Was he not OC in the twinbrook area of Belfast???
So hang on here, you nag at him to prove about Sands, other than being arrested for possession, yet you announce that you think he was the Twinbrook OC? What on earth is your game here?
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA,
No he wasn't and your list is a pretty poor showing for a days work trying to gather evidence that he was.
Quote from: Donagh on May 17, 2007, 08:53:44 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA,
No he wasn't and your list is a pretty poor showing for a days work trying to gather evidence that he was.
??? ::) ???
Sorry I was working until about half ten last night and then had to go to Swansea today. The list came from Cain, this evening when I got time to access it. As I said it is no where near a comprehensive list.
Sorry Sammy, but I must have missed something. How does a list of IRA actions in West Belfast support your claim that Sands was Belfast OC?
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.
What agenda? Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA, at a time when they were slaughtering people on a daily basis, this has been documented many times
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.
Aye you're right, being opposed to the celebration of sectarian slaughter definitely makes me a bigot. ::)
What makes you a bigot is the fact that you have an agenda against the GAA and some of it's members and that you falsely accuse people of holding positions you cannot prove they held in order to make a point, you have also been known to lie about certain murders when it suits your cause, we have had this discussion before sammy, remember the young Armagh woman slaughtered after being taken from the glentoran Supporters Club?????
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 10:06:36 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.
What agenda? Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA, at a time when they were slaughtering people on a daily basis, this has been documented many times
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.
Aye you're right, being opposed to the celebration of sectarian slaughter definitely makes me a bigot. ::)
What makes you a bigot is the fact that you have an agenda against the GAA and some of it's members and that you falsely accuse people of holding positions you cannot prove they held in order to make a point, you have also been known to lie about certain murders when it suits your cause, we have had this discussion before sammy, remember the young Armagh woman slaughtered after being taken from the glentoran Supporters Club?????
I remember her well. I remember you lying and trying to use a sectarian murder to try and have a go at the IFA. As far as the rest of your post, maybe you can tell me what you think my 'agenda against the GAA' is and what it has to do with this thread.
Quote from: Donagh on May 17, 2007, 09:27:56 PM
Sorry Sammy, but I must have missed something. How does a list of IRA actions in West Belfast support your claim that Sands was Belfast OC?
Fcuk me do you need a hand moving those goalposts?
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:19:19 PM
Fcuk me do you need a hand moving those goalposts?
Sammy, the only thing I've challenged you on is your claim that Sands was Belfast OC. Are you saying now that he wasn't?
Quote from: Donagh on May 17, 2007, 10:23:05 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:19:19 PM
Fcuk me do you need a hand moving those goalposts?
Sammy, the only thing I've challenged you on is your claim that Sands was Belfast OC. Are you saying now that he wasn't?
I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:27:34 PM
I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.
Where? What memorials? What biographies? I've been to a few memorials and he's only ever listed as 'Vol'. I've read the biographies and they don't ever mention him being OC of anything. I was reading the other night that the OC of the unit the day he was arrested was a woman (later killed in Gibraltar I suspect), so why would the Belfast OC be on an operation and taking orders from a subordinate?
Quote from: Donagh on May 17, 2007, 10:35:37 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:27:34 PM
I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.
Where? What memorials? What biographies? I've been to a few memorials and he's only ever listed as 'Vol'. I've read the biographies and they don't ever mention him being OC of anything. I was reading the other night that the OC of the unit the day he was arrested was a woman (later killed in Gibraltar I suspect), so why would the Belfast OC be on an operation and taking orders from a subordinate?
The woman who died in Gibraltar would have been 15 in 1972, so I think it's fairly unlikely that she was the OC of the Belfast Provos, but that was a good try.
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:50:20 PM
Quote from: Donagh on May 17, 2007, 10:35:37 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 10:27:34 PM
I have said, for the millionth time, he is listed as OC of the Belfast Brigade in biographies, memorials etc. Obviously this isn't proof that would stand up in a court of law but it has never been denied, either by his family or the Shinners spin machine. He also continued the role once he was in Long Kesh.
Where? What memorials? What biographies? I've been to a few memorials and he's only ever listed as 'Vol'. I've read the biographies and they don't ever mention him being OC of anything. I was reading the other night that the OC of the unit the day he was arrested was a woman (later killed in Gibraltar I suspect), so why would the Belfast OC be on an operation and taking orders from a subordinate?
The woman who died in Gibraltar would have been 15 in 1972, so I think it's fairly unlikely that she was the OC of the Belfast Provos, but that was a good try.
I didn't say she was. I said she was OC of the unit involved in the Dunmurry operation when Sands was arrested (1976). You are the one saying Sands was Belfast OC.
Quote from: hardstation on May 18, 2007, 12:39:58 AM
Half say that he was OC for Belfast, the other half say he was OC for Twinbrook (which nobody hasn't ever been proven) which they believe is the same thing. Please keep up.
Does it really matter - he was still a member of an illegal organisation, and all members of that organisation have to share the blame for any atrocities committed, whether or not they were actually involved is a moot point in my view.
Quote from: hardstation on May 18, 2007, 02:38:21 AM
So if a member of the GAA in Wexford murders 24 people tomorrow, you will present yourself to the Gardai?
Rubbish response - try to stay on the point and not drag the thread into the mire with childish responses
The GAA is not an illegal organisation that uses violence to acheive it's aims - if a GAA member in Wexford decides to murder anyone he does not do it becuase he is a member of the GAA but for other reasons.
Quote from: hardstation on May 18, 2007, 12:39:58 AM
You don't know what I was getting at. SammyG's people are split down the middle on this. Half say that he was OC for Belfast, the other half say he was OC for Twinbrook (neither of which has ever been proven) which they believe is the same thing. Please keep up.
Who in the name of fcuk are my 'people'? And why do they believe that Twinbrook and Belfast are the same thing?
Was also going to ask who "Sammy's people" are. Prods? Unionists? Either way, does it matter a flying f**k?
QuoteTell the truth Gallsman, you avoided this thread because you couldn't give a flying f**k either way. You're happy to sit in your house on the Malone Road (or not far off it) and call people idiots for commenting on things that have effected their lives. So waddle back to Daddy and tell him what the bold people are saying.
Aw, you and your harsh, severe little life. Grow the f**k up and actually try posting something worthwhile. I could be wrong but, from what you say, you don't strike me as a member of, or someone close to, the Sands family. So how has this effected (sic) your life. Everyone has feelings about the hunger strikes. You think because I'm not a little spide driving my skanger banger complete with white adidas tracksuit, kn**ker 'tache and fake burberry cap that I'm any different?
Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 18, 2007, 11:11:37 AM
Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?
Well considering it's to be made by Turner prize wining artist Steve McQueen, we're either going to get high speed motorbike chases around Lisburn as Bobby breaks for the border, or some psychedelic, art school, Waiting for Godot/Thatcher type nonsense.
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 18, 2007, 11:11:37 AM
Jaysus lads calm down, back to the film eh?
I apologise of course. Stubborness just gets on my tits is all. Particularly ill informed and illogical stubborness...
I do understand, I'm not usually one to resist a rise.
Like Donagh I hope it doesn't turn out to be some arty farty shite, an esotheric tome on the decay of the body, isolation of the spirit and a soul in crisis.
I can't think of too many prison political dramas that were rock solid sincere as well as good drama.
There was a South African one, a made for TV movie which was excellent, a gripping minimalist affair with Louis Gosset jr and Eric Stoltz?
Louis was investigating the conduct of a top prison officer and his role in the death of a prisoner, Louis turns the tables and twist the methaphorical rope on the guard's neck tighter and tighter, can't remember the name. Made at least 10 years ago.
Who is writing the screeenplay? Where is Costa Gavras? he'd be made for the job.
Quote from: SammyG on May 17, 2007, 08:12:47 PM
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
The clownthat is sammyg has made up stories in the past and he will do so again, he will never admit to being wrong about Sand's status in the RA because it does not suit his agenda.
What agenda? Sands was the OC of the Belfast IRA, at a time when they were slaughtering people on a daily basis, this has been documented many times
Quote from: stew on May 17, 2007, 07:55:19 PM
For those few who insist that sammy has not a bigotted bone in his body................Take a redner.
Aye you're right, being opposed to the celebration of sectarian slaughter definitely makes me a bigot. ::)
From your own list there sammy you can hardly argue that those murders were sectarian.
Sammy's list is a load of bollox anyway. If he actually took the time to read any of the biographies he would know that Sands was based in Twinbrook which in 1972 was a Stickie stronghold. The Provo unit there were all very young, inexperienced and had no weapons. Their orders were to keep their heads low and stay out of the way of the Stickies. Their job was to provide money and occasionally transport for others.
SammyG may be wrong in his allegation about Sands' role in the IRA. In particular being OC in the Maze would not be a reflection of his role on the outside. This fact is refered to in Ed Moloney's & Peter Taylor's works on the area. It is also refered to in Sean Callaghan's autobiography (for what that's worth!) and I think in one of Adam's books. An OC was appointed in prisons and all were under his command regardless of their external rank. That is a fact, in as much as you can know facts about secret armies.
I couldn't be arsed reading the whole 6 pages of this thread but I'm going to hazard a guess as to what the argument is about: Sands, sectarian or not.
To his defenders here:
a) He was a member of an organisation that carried out many, many sectarian acts. You can argue till the cows come home but there are too many incidents of targetting civilians and attacks of a sectarian nature to argue otherwise. I know supporters will trot out that their aims weren't and the closet supporters will state that their methods wrong but aims honourable. At the end of the day you have got to accept that unionists like SammyG saw these activities as sectarian and an attack on their community. He has got good reason, get over it.
2) The attacks on the Balmorrall furniture store had a sectarian edge to them and saw people killed (although not the particular instance Sands was arrested). My local Sinn Féin councillor told me that these were attacks on economic targets they were not sectarian, but that they had to hit Protestant targets so as not to alienate their support base. Fair enough but that is admitting the business targetted were protestant so in effect these were sectarian attacks.
So regardless of your own views, you should be able to see the validity of SammyG's views. State your objections but don't vilify the guy for holding what are reasonable views.
To SammyG,
Republican supporters do not see the IRA campaign as sectarian, the fire-bombing of economics targets as sectarian and hence Bobby Sands was not sectarian. Therefore the only issue here is his death for the 5 demands and so he must be a hero and man of principle.
So not matter how you argue about his position in the IRA it won't change these people's view of Bobby Sands.
/Jim.
Sensible post Jim. Can't see any faults in your words.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 24, 2007, 01:44:25 PM
SammyG may be wrong in his allegation about Sands' role in the IRA. In particular being OC in the Maze would not be a reflection of his role on the outside. This fact is refered to in Ed Moloney's & Peter Taylor's works on the area. It is also refered to in Sean Callaghan's autobiography (for what that's worth!) and I think in one of Adam's books. An OC was appointed in prisons and all were under his command regardless of their external rank. That is a fact, in as much as you can know facts about secret armies.
I couldn't be arsed reading the whole 6 pages of this thread but I'm going to hazard a guess as to what the argument is about: Sands, sectarian or not.
To his defenders here:
a) He was a member of an organisation that carried out many, many sectarian acts. You can argue till the cows come home but there are too many incidents of targetting civilians and attacks of a sectarian nature to argue otherwise. I know supporters will trot out that their aims weren't and the closet supporters will state that their methods wrong but aims honourable. At the end of the day you have got to accept that unionists like SammyG saw these activities as sectarian and an attack on their community. He has got good reason, get over it.
2) The attacks on the Balmorrall furniture store had a sectarian edge to them and saw people killed (although not the particular instance Sands was arrested). My local Sinn Féin councillor told me that these were attacks on economic targets they were not sectarian, but that they had to hit Protestant targets so as not to alienate their support base. Fair enough but that is admitting the business targetted were protestant so in effect these were sectarian attacks.
So regardless of your own views, you should be able to see the validity of SammyG's views. State your objections but don't vilify the guy for holding what are reasonable views.
To SammyG,
Republican supporters do not see the IRA campaign as sectarian, the fire-bombing of economics targets as sectarian and hence Bobby Sands was not sectarian. Therefore the only issue here is his death for the 5 demands and so he must be a hero and man of principle.
So not matter how you argue about his position in the IRA it won't change these people's view of Bobby Sands.
/Jim.
A logical well thought out response
Looking at both sides of the debate
Not shouting down the other side & bringing stupid petty 'facts' into the debate
Sorry Jim, but you are out of place on this board ;)
Jim, Sammy has said Sands was the Belfast OC (which is wrong by the way) and as such was responsible of the list IRA actions on a previous page. The facts are that Sands was a very minor player at that time and indeed many people who were in Long Kesh with him said he was very vocally opposed to the leadership on the outside which was carrying out retaliatory (sectarian) attacks during the ceasefire.
By implication you have said it's reasonable to argue that Sands was sectarian because he was a member of that movement, even though he was opposed to sectarian attacks. So how far do you take this? i.e.were all republicans sectarian if they sympathized with the movement even if they opposed sectarian attacks? Were all unionists sectarian because they were members of, supported, or sympathized with the 'security forces' that probably carried out many more sectarian attacks than the IRA? Are the Irish people as a 'sectarian' because the government allows the yanks to route their military through Shannon on the way to Iraq?
Donagh,
I would think that it is reasonable to argue that any active member of the IRA could be sectarian. I would say that for every n'th degree you take it away: supporting, sympathising the argument waters down.
In the case of Sands I would say the nature of the Balmorrall attacks are a big black mark. Economic targets is too shaky an argument for me.
I would also question your assertion about Sands being vocal against attacks on the outside. In the excerpts of comms you posted here previously there was a comm about how he read the newspaper about an operation and it lightened his heart to know that people were continuing the fight. I don't know what the operation was or how sectarian it was. Was he selective in what he was opposed to?
As for unionists, I think large swathes of unionists are at best naieve, possible ignorant of or at worst sectarian when it comes to the security forces, in particular the UDR.
/Jim.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on May 24, 2007, 02:48:16 PM
Donagh,
I would think that it is reasonable to argue that any active member of the IRA could be sectarian. I would say that for every n'th degree you take it away: supporting, sympathising the argument waters down.
In the case of Sands I would say the nature of the Balmorrall attacks are a big black mark. Economic targets is too shaky an argument for me.
I would also question your assertion about Sands being vocal against attacks on the outside. In the excerpts of comms you posted here previously there was a comm about how he read the newspaper about an operation and it lightened his heart to know that people were continuing the fight. I don't know what the operation was or how sectarian it was. Was he selective in what he was opposed to?
As for unionists, I think large swathes of unionists are at best naieve, possible ignorant of or at worst sectarian when it comes to the security forces, in particular the UDR.
/Jim.
Jim, you certainly could argue that any active IRA member could be sectarian just as you could argue that anyone has the potential to be sectarian. With an understanding of where Sands and the new leadership of the IRA post-'76 were coming from, it's a lot easier to argue that they were anti-sectarianism.
I think this is probably what you are missing from your analysis i.e. that the IRA 1971-1976 and the IRA post 1976 were two very different organisations. The pre '76 organisation was pretty much taken over and politicised by the young men that educated themselves in the Cages. Youths who had probably joined up in a gut reaction to the violence on the streets or been interned began to realise allowing themselves to get caught up an internecine sectarian conflict was was futile. Below is a few extracts from Chapter 8 of the O'Hearn book which describes the thinking of those that began to dominate the movement post '76.
---------------
---------------
Bobby and the others developed from a near-childish understanding of politics to a relatively mature political analysis. They were under the guidance of the new leadership but they achieved the transition by learning from each other. Learning came through participation and debate, not through lecturing and the handing out of "truth" by a "teacher" of superior intellect. Possibly they read Frieire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed, which was published in Britan in 1972. More likely, they were discovering a wheel that has been discovered in similar ways in many revolutionary situations, all with their own local characteristics. Either way, the young prisoners were awakening their own consciousness and talking about how they would change the organisation of their life in their communities once they got out of prison.
The fundamental political lessons they explored were rooted in five basic principles, which Adams called "the five isms": Nationalism, Socialism, secularism, anti-sectarianism and internationalism. ... Against the public image of the IRA as a "green Catholic army", he talked about secularism and anti-sectarianism. ... that the differences between orange and green, Protestant and Catholic, had always been carefully fostered by Britain. He cited intelligence that purportedly showed that the British and police were behind many Loyalist attacks on Catholics and that they had armed the Loyalists who carried them out. The men began to question the IRA's involvement in reprisal attacks against Loyalists. It was up to them to turn this around. Republicanism can only be as anti-sectarian as its volunteers.
The enemy, they decided was not defined by religion but by politics. Adams summarised what they were saying in their discussions:
"They must be enemies because they are anti-People and pro-Profit, not because they go to a different church or no church at all, not because they have better ghettoes or none at all. They cannot be enemies because someone else has defined them as the enemy for us. If we look hard enough we will find the real enemy in behind there somewhere. In behind making profits out of old score."
Defining the enemy in this way, rather than by religion and "warring tribes" as the press and government consistently did, was highly appealing to Bobby. It was just what he was waiting to hear: an analysis that merged his international anti-imperialist struggle with a practical analysis of their own struggle against British imperialism. The IRA should fight the British because it is anti-sectarian and Socialist, because the British were "armed mercenaries" and, therefore, "we must be armed revolutionaries". ... Nobody bluntly stated that the current IRA leadership was wrong but the discussions raised questions that encouraged the men to work out alternative explanations of British behaviour from what their leaders were telling them.
...
the article hit the press with a strong indictment of sectarianism, at a time when the IRA was in the middle of a sectarian war with the Loyalist paramilitaries. The article appeared a mere three days after a young IRA volunteer named Brendan McFarlane drove a bomb ... which killed three men and two women, all Protestants.
"Taigs and orangies, Prods and micks. But it all goes deeper than name-calling, as you know better than I do, and only the British reap the benefits. "Let you and him fight", sez one Sassenach. "While you are at it I'll be left alone to impose solutions, to build new profits on the backs of old scores. Let you and him fight and me and the privileged few will see things through."
Donagh,
I am not at all confused about the IRA of any period. Whether or not the IRA and it's members said it or meant it many, many of their attacks were at least open to the accusation of being motivated by sectarian reasons.
In the context of Sands can you not agree that the Balmorral furniture attacks could be painted as sectarian and that this was as likely a reason as it being an "economic" target?
What about the biggy: Enniskillen????????? Do you want to seriously dismiss people who saw this as attacking protestants rather than military targets?
The Balcombe Street gang: London's West End and it's restaurants, military targets.
I'm not asking you to share SammyG's views or anyone else but at least recognise where they are coming from.
/Jim.
Jim I recognize some of the IRAs actions may leave them open to accusations of sectarianism, I have never denied that. I'm sure some of their actions leave them open to accusations of Marxism or anti-Catholicism. What I am saying is that the vast majority of their members were not motivated by sectarianism and it is unfair to label Sands as sectarian when the evidence points to the opposite.
The IRA was a huge organization backed up by support groups, a very large section of the community and other sympathizers. I know there is a case for claiming collective responsibility, but in such a secretive organization where many units through necessity had to act autonomously it can is unfair to label all members, supporters and sympathizers because of the actions of a few.
BTW, my input on this thread was to refute Sammy's insistence that Sands was Belfast OC in the 70's.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 04:41:02 PM
Jim I recognize some of the IRAs actions may leave them open to accusations of sectarianism, I have never denied that. I'm sure some of their actions leave them open to accusations of Marxism or anti-Catholicism. What I am saying is that the vast majority of their members were not motivated by sectarianism and it is unfair to label Sands as sectarian when the evidence points to the opposite.
The IRA was a huge organization backed up by support groups, a very large section of the community and other sympathizers. I know there is a case for claiming collective responsibility, but in such a secretive organization where many units through necessity had to act autonomously it can is unfair to label all members, supporters and sympathizers because of the actions of a few.
BTW, my input on this thread was to refute Sammy's insistence that Sands was Belfast OC in the 70's.
Donagh,
I concur with assertion about Sands not being an OC or anywhere near it. Nothing I have read of the time would point to that.
As for evidence of Sands sectarianism, I still think his invovlement in Balmoral Furniture store is enough of grounds to warrant the accusation.
/Jim.
As far as I've known Sands was leader of the IRA in Twinbrook when he was arrested for the final time. Indeed, Donagh has previously posted a 'tribute' to Sands which referred to this.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 02:05:54 PM
The facts are that Sands was a very minor player at that time and indeed many people who were in Long Kesh with him said he was very vocally opposed to the leadership on the outside which was carrying out retaliatory (sectarian) attacks during the ceasefire.
Did he oppose the leadership within the Maze, i.e. Brendan 'Bik' McFarlane of Bayardo Bar massacre 'fame'?
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 02:05:54 PM
Jim, Sammy has said Sands was the Belfast OC (which is wrong by the way) and as such was responsible of the list IRA actions on a previous page. The facts are that Sands was a very minor player at that time and indeed many people who were in Long Kesh with him said he was very vocally opposed to the leadership on the outside which was carrying out retaliatory (sectarian) attacks during the ceasefire.
Donagh
As per my previous couple of posts. I have only listed actions carried out by Sands unit of the Provos, in West Belfast as you'd accepted that he was involved in these. If I listed all the actions that he is 'alledgedly' responsible for it would take a fortnight and use up enough bandwidth to run a small town.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 02:05:54 PM
By implication you have said it's reasonable to argue that Sands was sectarian because he was a member of that movement, even though he was opposed to sectarian attacks. So how far do you take this? i.e.were all republicans sectarian if they sympathized with the movement even if they opposed sectarian attacks? Were all unionists sectarian because they were members of, supported, or sympathized with the 'security forces' that probably carried out many more sectarian attacks than the IRA? Are the Irish people as a 'sectarian' because the government allows the yanks to route their military through Shannon on the way to Iraq?
It is possible to infer that Sands was sectarian because he was a leading member of a gang of sectarian murderers. Obviously there is a tiny possibility that he was able to pick and choose his 'operations' and he only ever engaged in face to face action with the evil Brit invaders, but it would be stretching credibility a bit, especially when you look at his actions regarding that great hero Bik Macfarlane.
It'll be interesting to see the movie and the way they protray Sands and his comrades, even more interesting will be the various inerpretations of different people about the movie.
Regardless of your political view point it has to be accepted that Bobby Sands was a courageous, selfless, inspiring figure who along with his 9 comrades died for a cause they believed in.
'They have nothing in all their emperial arsenal that can break the spirit of any Irish man who does not want to be broken'
Quote from: Fíor Gael on May 24, 2007, 08:37:30 PM
It'll be interesting to see the movie and the way they protray Sands and his comrades, even more interesting will be the various inerpretations of different people about the movie.
As Donagh said (and it's not often I agree with Donagh), the movie looks like being some sort of arthouse shite rather than any attempt to look at the issues.
Quote from: Fíor Gael on May 24, 2007, 08:37:30 PM
Regardless of your political view point it has to be accepted that Bobby Sands was a courageous, selfless, inspiring figure who along with his 9 comrades died for a cause they believed in.
Sorry but that is absolute twaddle, why does somebody killing himself mean that he was 'courageous, selfless and inspiring', especially given his previous history? I would have thought any normal person would see him as the exact opposite.
Sammy, you listed actions carried out by the West Belfast IRA, when Sands was based in Twinbrook only. A unit which as I said had little weaponry or experience and confined to robbing debt collectors and cars.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 08:51:10 PM
Sammy, you listed actions carried out by the West Belfast IRA, when Sands was based in Twinbrook only. A unit which as I said had little weaponry or experience and confined to robbing debt collectors and cars.
Aye he was actually a boy scout and spent his time helping oul dolls across the road with their messages. ;)
QuoteSorry but that is absolute twaddle, why does somebody killing himself mean that he was 'courageous, selfless and inspiring', especially given his previous history? I would have thought any normal person would see him as the exact opposite.
sammy, are you that fckin blind that you cant even admit that he was courageous? whatever about anything else. if a loyalist starved himself to death i wouldnt miss him but at least id admit he was courageous...
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
QuoteSorry but that is absolute twaddle, why does somebody killing himself mean that he was 'courageous, selfless and inspiring', especially given his previous history? I would have thought any normal person would see him as the exact opposite.
sammy, are you that fckin blind that you cant even admit that he was courageous? whatever about anything else. if a loyalist starved himself to death i wouldnt miss him but at least id admit he was courageous...
Sorry but what is courageous about killing yourself?
Bobby Sands died in a battle as far as I'm concerned and that's what makes him corageous to me, amongst other things.
And for my part he won the battle
Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 09:16:56 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
QuoteSorry but that is absolute twaddle, why does somebody killing himself mean that he was 'courageous, selfless and inspiring', especially given his previous history? I would have thought any normal person would see him as the exact opposite.
sammy, are you that fckin blind that you cant even admit that he was courageous? whatever about anything else. if a loyalist starved himself to death i wouldnt miss him but at least id admit he was courageous...
Sorry but what is courageous about killing yourself?
would have thought that was glaringly obvious, he was going to face pain, hardship and need nerves of steel to see it thro. we'll leave out the fact that he wasnt going to be around to see any benifit as he could not have known the outcome once he died. is it beyond you to see any of that?
I'n not going to get overly involved in a thread like this, as it's the kind in which people allow their emptions to betray them. And fortunately I'm too young to have been swayed by events at the time. But I will repeat a comment I once heard about Bobby Sands, which went along the lines of "if he was capable of doing that to himself, then what would he have been capable of doing to others".
Personally I've no respect for extreme violence, regardless of the cause. Bobby Sands was guilty of extreme violence, if only to himself.
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 09:43:50 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 09:16:56 PM
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 09:14:14 PM
QuoteSorry but that is absolute twaddle, why does somebody killing himself mean that he was 'courageous, selfless and inspiring', especially given his previous history? I would have thought any normal person would see him as the exact opposite.
sammy, are you that fckin blind that you cant even admit that he was courageous? whatever about anything else. if a loyalist starved himself to death i wouldnt miss him but at least id admit he was courageous...
Sorry but what is courageous about killing yourself?
would have thought that was glaringly obvious, he was going to face pain, hardship and need nerves of steel to see it thro. we'll leave out the fact that he wasnt going to be around to see any benifit as he could not have known the outcome once he died. is it beyond you to see any of that?
So are all the hundred of suicides, every year, courageous or do you have to have had a history of sectarian violence first?
Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 09:49:37 PM
So are all the hundred of suicides, every year, courageous or do you have to have had a history of sectarian violence first?
As you know fine well it was not suicide, but an act of political protest. Your attempts to portray it as a suicidal act by a psychopath is not only grossly insulting but displays perfectly the spiteful ignorance in which unionist population prefer to keep themselves when confronted with anything that challenges their traditional world view... aka 'siege mentality'.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 10:04:20 PM
Quote from: SammyG on May 24, 2007, 09:49:37 PM
So are all the hundred of suicides, every year, courageous or do you have to have had a history of sectarian violence first?
As you know fine well it was not suicide, but an act of political protest.
Sorry but I don't know anything of the sort.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 10:04:20 PM
Your attempts to portray it as a suicidal act by a psychopath is not only grossly insulting
I'm not a doctor so I wouldn't claim to be able to diagnose a psychopath, but I would certainly go with psychopathic tendencies. He killed a load of people and then killed himself.
Quote from: Donagh on May 24, 2007, 10:04:20 PM
but displays perfectly the spiteful ignorance in which unionist population prefer to keep themselves when confronted with anything that challenges their traditional world view... aka 'siege mentality'.
What bollix, what has my political persuasion got to do with anything? There are lots of Nationalists who disagree with the Provos, are they displaying their 'siege mentality'?
QuoteSo are all the hundred of suicides, every year, courageous or do you have to have had a history of sectarian violence first?
sammy, did i mention suicide? or sectarian violence? was there some part of my text that sent you off on this tangent? your not going to say he was courageous because its not in you and thats fine.
You know nothing of the sort!
Haha of course you don't
You're a waste of time Sammy, and I find your views on Bobby Sands very hard to listen to
Though not my time thank god, your name to a topic is just a beware sign.
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 10:30:39 PM
QuoteSo are all the hundred of suicides, every year, courageous or do you have to have had a history of sectarian violence first?
sammy, did i mention suicide? or sectarian violence? was there some part of my text that sent you off on this tangent? your not going to say he was courageous because its not in you and thats fine.
I'm asking why he was 'courageous' and you won't answer the question? What is courageous about killing yourself?
Quote from: ExiledGael on May 24, 2007, 10:31:37 PM
You know nothing of the sort!
Haha of course you don't
???
Quote from: ExiledGael on May 24, 2007, 10:31:37 PM
You're a waste of time Sammy, and I find your views on Bobby Sands very hard to listen to
What views do you have a problem with? Was he not a member of a sectarian murder gang? Did he not kill himself?
QuoteI'm asking why he was 'courageous' and you won't answer the question? What is courageous about killing yourself?
try reading the focking thread. i'll repeat my above answer for you...
would have thought that was glaringly obvious, he was going to face pain, hardship and need nerves of steel to see it thro. we'll leave out the fact that he wasnt going to be around to see any benifit as he could not have known the outcome once he died. is it beyond you to see any of that?
Quote from: magickingdom on May 24, 2007, 10:51:00 PM
QuoteI'm asking why he was 'courageous' and you won't answer the question? What is courageous about killing yourself?
try reading the focking thread. i'll repeat my above answer for you...
would have thought that was glaringly obvious, he was going to face pain, hardship and need nerves of steel to see it thro. we'll leave out the fact that he wasnt going to be around to see any benifit as he could not have known the outcome once he died. is it beyond you to see any of that?
All of that applies to anybody that kills themselves. It doesn't make them courageous.
Starv9ing yourself to death to highlight a cause you believe deeply in is courageous Sammy.
You have to at least admit that.
I'd even say that about Hitler, its possible to be courageous as well as a bollox you know, not that I thought Sands was a bollox by the way.
By you would probably rather believe Sands spent his spare time eating babies eh?
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 28, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
Starv9ing yourself to death to highlight a cause you believe deeply in is courageous Sammy.
You have to at least admit that.
I'm not being awkward, I honestly don't see what is courageous about killing yourself. Hundreds of people commit suicide, in jail, are they all courageous?
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 28, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
By you would probably rather believe Sands spent his spare time eating babies eh?
Don't think he ate any babies, but he was happy enough to murder them.
Quote from: SammyG on May 29, 2007, 08:56:17 AM
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 28, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
Starv9ing yourself to death to highlight a cause you believe deeply in is courageous Sammy.
You have to at least admit that.
I'm not being awkward, I honestly don't see what is courageous about killing yourself. Hundreds of people commit suicide, in jail, are they all courageous?
Quote from: his holiness nb on May 28, 2007, 06:59:40 PM
By you would probably rather believe Sands spent his spare time eating babies eh?
Don't think he ate any babies, but he was happy enough to murder them.
in true unionist/loyalist style - its gone from Sands being imprisoned for accusations of :
being at the scene/a gun being in the boot of a car he was driving/that he was some sort of a getaway driver/guilty of being a 'taig'
to now having been responsible for the killing of babies.
you could never legislate for the lies that these people spouted to ensure that their 'establishment collusion/genocide/apartheid' remained.
Even yet they refuse to admit they were wrong/illegal/sectarian and started the whole thing off because of their establisment/attitude/sectarianism/apartheid and version of genocide. So dont expect any kind of admission that there were good taigs, that maybe 'some' were internet/imprisoned incorrectly and that anything was deserving of some kind of respect.
For those of you not affected and too young to remember all this sihte and when it was in the late 780's early 80's - then thank your lucky stars.
You prob wont hear the real story of truth for a decade or so yet , until the truth starts to seep out in various books or tribunals or opening of gov documentation.
but remember people like our unionist/loyalist poster here who will try to enforce his history on us all - in true oo/unionist/loyalist style!
:)
Yep, starving yourself to death over however many days for a cause you believe in is just so run-of-the-mill and unremarkable that even 'loyalists' have done it some others in history have done it.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 29, 2007, 01:30:26 PMin true unionist/loyalist style - its gone from Sands being imprisoned for accusations of :
being at the scene/a gun being in the boot of a car he was driving/that he was some sort of a getaway driver/guilty of being a 'taig'
to now having been responsible for the killing of babies.
Are you suggesting that the Provos didn't kill babies?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 29, 2007, 01:30:26 PM
you could never legislate for the lies that these people spouted to ensure that their 'establishment collusion/genocide/apartheid' remained.
Even yet they refuse to admit they were wrong/illegal/sectarian and started the whole thing off because of their establisment/attitude/sectarianism/apartheid and version of genocide. So dont expect any kind of admission that there were good taigs, that maybe 'some' were internet/imprisoned incorrectly and that anything was deserving of some kind of respect.
What lies?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 29, 2007, 01:30:26 PM
For those of you not affected and too young to remember all this sihte and when it was in the late 780's early 80's - then thank your lucky stars.
You prob wont hear the real story of truth for a decade or so yet , until the truth starts to seep out in various books or tribunals or opening of gov documentation.
You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the arse
Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 29, 2007, 01:30:26 PM
but remember people like our unionist/loyalist poster here who will try to enforce his history on us all - in true oo/unionist/loyalist style!
:)
Interesting choice of words given that I'm not a loyalist (in either the paramilitary or loyal to the queen sense), I detest the oo with every ounce of my being and couldn't join even if I wanted to as I'm neither a Prod or a royalist and lastly I'm not sure how you can 'enforce history' on anybody. But apart from that you're almost right. ::)
Re. the list of things that you say your not, thats your wee fantasy..
But what you are is a very bitter person, poisonous in fact.
Quote from: Fluffy Che on May 29, 2007, 08:14:06 PM
Re. the list of things that you say your not, thats your wee fantasy..
WTF is that supposed to mean?
Quote from: Fluffy Che on May 29, 2007, 08:14:06 PM
But what you are is a very bitter person, poisonous in fact.
Don't think so, not bitter at all. Being opposed to the glorification of sectarian murder doesn't make you bitter.
Quote from: SammyG on May 29, 2007, 02:06:06 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on May 29, 2007, 01:30:26 PMin true unionist/loyalist style - its gone from Sands being imprisoned for accusations of :
being at the scene/a gun being in the boot of a car he was driving/that he was some sort of a getaway driver/guilty of being a 'taig'
to now having been responsible for the killing of babies.
Are you suggesting that the Provos didn't kill babies?
Babies dying (tragically) as a result of operations, and targeting babies deliberately are two different things, as you very well know SammyG, and there's never been such a conflict where the weakest in society haven't suffered (all tangential to the subject here -- Sands). Now, would you like to talk about the
deliberate killing of babies (thousands of them) and the much admired (in some specific circles) Bomber (Butcher) Harris and his
carpet bombing?
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on May 29, 2007, 11:12:29 PMBabies dying (tragically) as a result of operations, and targeting babies deliberately are two different things, as you very well know SammyG, and there's never been such a conflict where the weakest in society haven't suffered (all tangential to the subject here -- Sands).
So if you plant a bomb in a crowded shop and then plant another bomb, a hundred yards down the road, to catch the people running away from the first bomb, you're not deliberately targetting them? You can't fault that sort of logic. ::)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on May 29, 2007, 11:12:29 PM
Now, would you like to talk about the deliberate killing of babies (thousands of them) and the much admired (in some specific circles) Bomber (Butcher) Harris and his carpet bombing?
Not that it has any relevance to this thread, but I think carpet bombing civilians is a war crime and has no justification whatsoever.
Quote from: SammyG on May 30, 2007, 08:29:36 AM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on May 29, 2007, 11:12:29 PMBabies dying (tragically) as a result of operations, and targeting babies deliberately are two different things, as you very well know SammyG, and there's never been such a conflict where the weakest in society haven't suffered (all tangential to the subject here -- Sands).
So if you plant a bomb in a crowded shop and then plant another bomb, a hundred yards down the road, to catch the people running away from the first bomb, you're not deliberately targetting them? You can't fault that sort of logic.
Yes, you would, if that were policy, which it wasn't. That's not to say there weren't outrageous exceptions, but if Provo policy were simply to kill civilians, they could have dispensed with warning calls altogether, and given the (sometimes) devastating scale of material destruction the civilian casualties were kept to a thankful minimum.
18 July 1972 James Jones (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while inside Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
18 July 1972 Thomas Mills (50) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Security man. Found shot inside Finlay's factory, Ballygomartin Road, Belfast.
Thomas Mills was my Grandfather, Never got the chance to meet him as the cowardly scum known as the IRA killed him for having a stick in his hand. I dont bother with religion except when it come to the scum. Hope they all rot in hell!!!!
Quote from: Kathleen on December 09, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
18 July 1972 James Jones (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while inside Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
18 July 1972 Thomas Mills (50) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Security man. Found shot inside Finlay's factory, Ballygomartin Road, Belfast.
thomas Mills was my Grandfather, Never got the chance to meet him as the cowardly scum known as the IRA killed him for having a stick in his hand. I dont bother with religion except when it come to the scum. Hope they all rot in hell!!!!
sorry for your family's loss , but in a war thats what happens.
sounds callous and horrible and death usually is.
but these soldiers were stationed over here and not saying your grandfather was guilty of the atrocities carried out by the army against defenceless women , men, children and familes unrelated to any gangs or violence - but there were far too many soldiers embelishing this task.
they (those guilty of this), as supposed impartial crown forces are bigger scum !!
Quote8 July 1972 James Jones (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while inside Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
A good sniper with a steady eye, was a valuable asset to a guerilla army in the old days.
Quote from: Kathleen on December 09, 2010, 02:33:47 PM
18 July 1972 James Jones (18) nfNI
Status: British Army (BA), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Shot by sniper while inside Vere Foster School British Army (BA) base, Ballymurphy, Belfast.
18 July 1972 Thomas Mills (50) Protestant
Status: Civilian (Civ), Killed by: Irish Republican Army (IRA)
Security man. Found shot inside Finlay's factory, Ballygomartin Road, Belfast.
Thomas Mills was my Grandfather, Never got the chance to meet him as the cowardly scum known as the IRA killed him for having a stick in his hand. I dont bother with religion except when it come to the scum. Hope they all rot in hell!!!!
Also sorry for your families loss but don't fall into the trap of believing what happened in the north of Ireland was just a religious conflict by bloodthirsty IRA men and women. The IRA didn't exist by chance. It was simply a continuation of the conflicts that have taken place in Ireland since English occupation/interference in Ireland began over 850 years ago. If Britain hadn't have started it's centuries of occupation and terrorism in Ireland, there wouldn't have been an IRA. And also don't fall into the trap of believing that the IRA were the only people responsible for the violence which occurred in the latest phase of the conflict.
Read page four (the summary page) of the following, and it should give you a taste of what I'm getting at, in reference to 25 murders involving British security forces. (Note that this is only a report into 25 out of up to somewhere in the region of 900 murders involving british security force involvement of Irish citizens).
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/collusion/docs/cassel061106.pdf