Like most Irish people from a cultural Catholic background I am opposed to the Church's teachings on countless issues. I believe that they are wrong about contraception, abortion, gay marriage, women priests, the sanctity of confession. And most of all, I don't actually believe in God. In addition to that I firmly believe that most priests do not believe in god either, because half of them only became priests because they were gay and didn't know what else to do.
However, we all play along with the game. We get our kids baptised because we want them to go to the local school. We play along with the Catholic faith because we want to get married in Catholic churches and when I die, I want to be buried in the same graveyard as the rest of my family which happens of course to be a catholic graveyard.
The Catholic church have been getting flak for questioning why people want to get married in Catholic churches if they do not adhere to Catholic doctrine, and maybe they have a point. Why do we want to get married in Catholic churches? Is it time to make a break and start again? Have I a right as a non practising catholic to be buried beside my parents and grandparents or should I be shunted off to the municipal graveyard in the town.
As I live in rural county Armagh, if I don't send my children to a Catholic school, I have to send them to a Protestant primary school, there is no alternative, therefore I am forced to get the children baptised. The churches authority is gone, and it's time to question why they should be allowed to continue to dominate the education sector both North & South.
I think culturally Irish will always be catholic-flexible, sloppy, good at solving problems, bad at accountability and following rules.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/law-removing-baptism-as-requirement-for-school-entry-passed-by-dáil-1.3514882
Quote from: Feckitt on May 31, 2018, 09:25:01 AM
Like most Irish people from a cultural Catholic background I am opposed to the Church's teachings on countless issues. I believe that they are wrong about contraception, abortion, gay marriage, women priests, the sanctity of confession. And most of all, I don't actually believe in God. In addition to that I firmly believe that most priests do not believe in god either, because half of them only became priests because they were gay and didn't know what else to do.
However, we all play along with the game. We get our kids baptised because we want them to go to the local school. We play along with the Catholic faith because we want to get married in Catholic churches and when I die, I want to be buried in the same graveyard as the rest of my family which happens of course to be a catholic graveyard.
The Catholic church have been getting flak for questioning why people want to get married in Catholic churches if they do not adhere to Catholic doctrine, and maybe they have a point. Why do we want to get married in Catholic churches? Is it time to make a break and start again? Have I a right as a non practising catholic to be buried beside my parents and grandparents or should I be shunted off to the municipal graveyard in the town.
As I live in rural county Armagh, if I don't send my children to a Catholic school, I have to send them to a Protestant primary school, there is no alternative, therefore I am forced to get the children baptised. The churches authority is gone, and it's time to question why they should be allowed to continue to dominate the education sector both North & South.
A touch of the Boris Johnson about all of this. I want to leave the EU and still have all the cake.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 31, 2018, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Feckitt on May 31, 2018, 09:25:01 AM
Like most Irish people from a cultural Catholic background I am opposed to the Church's teachings on countless issues. I believe that they are wrong about contraception, abortion, gay marriage, women priests, the sanctity of confession. And most of all, I don't actually believe in God. In addition to that I firmly believe that most priests do not believe in god either, because half of them only became priests because they were gay and didn't know what else to do.
However, we all play along with the game. We get our kids baptised because we want them to go to the local school. We play along with the Catholic faith because we want to get married in Catholic churches and when I die, I want to be buried in the same graveyard as the rest of my family which happens of course to be a catholic graveyard.
The Catholic church have been getting flak for questioning why people want to get married in Catholic churches if they do not adhere to Catholic doctrine, and maybe they have a point. Why do we want to get married in Catholic churches? Is it time to make a break and start again? Have I a right as a non practising catholic to be buried beside my parents and grandparents or should I be shunted off to the municipal graveyard in the town.
As I live in rural county Armagh, if I don't send my children to a Catholic school, I have to send them to a Protestant primary school, there is no alternative, therefore I am forced to get the children baptised. The churches authority is gone, and it's time to question why they should be allowed to continue to dominate the education sector both North & South.
A touch of the Boris Johnson about all of this. I want to leave the EU and still have all the cake.
Only a touch, at most.
The majority of the EU wants to remain part of the EU as is – for the most part, as far as we can tell from the facts that 1) the UK is the only country to have decided to leave and 2) there is no 'leave' majority that we know of in any other country.
On the other hand, as far as we can tell, the majority of those who identify as Catholic disagree with the self appointed hierarchy on, it seems, the great majority of doctrinal and social policy issues.
its a fascinating subject this, and we are watching what is little short of a gentle reformation play out before our eyes. the vast majority of citizens in the republic of Ireland ( using this as i'm using census figures) classify themselves as catholic, over 80%,
yet the vast majority of these Catholics reject huge parts of the church doctrine, any remaining doubts about the extent of this being well and truly dispelled last week.
yet all these Catholics consider themselves catholic, and by and large are happy in their Catholicism. i'm an atheist and have been since i was 11 and i came from a home that was a good deal less catholic then most of those around me so i honestly cannot understand their thinking at all, it baffles me.
but i see it in my wife's and her family and my friends and their families, all secular liberal minded people, rarely if ever go to church out from weddings funerals etc, yet consider themselves catholic and profess a great fondness for many aspects of it while having an equally great revulsion for may other aspects of it.
they pick the bits they like and ignore the rest and condemn some of it and are as often appalled by the church's actions as they are inspired by it.
and it has come to the point that on the ground most priests are perfectly happy to go along with this and on a personal level seem closer to the views of their flock tan to the teachings of rome.
now not that long ago (up to last week) all this sickened me a bit as i saw it as giving an easy ride to a malevolent and dangerous organization that still held too much influence over society and i saw the hypocrisy of these so called Catholics as perpetuating this sly influence on society.
as of last week i see they have no influence left, zero, its finished, they are harmless, their continued presence as the new Irish Catholic Church is no threat to modern irish society.
Is being a catholic and not agreeing with everything the church does, not the same as being a GAA member and not agreeing with everything they do?
Actually, the church waiver a lot more of their own rules than the GAA do. Anyway, this is not a GAA/church thing, I'm just saying like.
Quote from: guy crouchback on May 31, 2018, 01:52:01 PM
its a fascinating subject this, and we are watching what is little short of a gentle reformation play out before our eyes. the vast majority of citizens in the republic of Ireland ( using this as i'm using census figures) classify themselves as catholic, over 80%,
yet the vast majority of these Catholics reject huge parts of the church doctrine, any remaining doubts about the extent of this being well and truly dispelled last week.
yet all these Catholics consider themselves catholic, and by and large are happy in their Catholicism. i'm an atheist and have been since i was 11 and i came from a home that was a good deal less catholic then most of those around me so i honestly cannot understand their thinking at all, it baffles me.
but i see it in my wife's and her family and my friends and their families, all secular liberal minded people, rarely if ever go to church out from weddings funerals etc, yet consider themselves catholic and profess a great fondness for many aspects of it while having an equally great revulsion for may other aspects of it.
they pick the bits they like and ignore the rest and condemn some of it and are as often appalled by the church's actions as they are inspired by it.
and it has come to the point that on the ground most priests are perfectly happy to go along with this and on a personal level seem closer to the views of their flock tan to the teachings of rome.
now not that long ago (up to last week) all this sickened me a bit as i saw it as giving an easy ride to a malevolent and dangerous organization that still held too much influence over society and i saw the hypocrisy of these so called Catholics as perpetuating this sly influence on society.
as of last week i see they have no influence left, zero, its finished, they are harmless, their continued presence as the new Irish Catholic Church is no threat to modern irish society.
the majority of the population is indoctrinated from an early age by our school system
Pearse called the primary school system the 'murder machine' in terms of the Irish language
it was actually turned into a tool for the mass indoctrination and subjugation of the population by the catholic church
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on May 31, 2018, 11:08:21 AM
Quote from: Feckitt on May 31, 2018, 09:25:01 AM
As I live in rural county Armagh, if I don't send my children to a Catholic school, I have to send them to a Protestant primary school, there is no alternative, therefore I am forced to get the children baptised.
That shouldn't be the case, no school in the Catholic sector in the North that I know requires a child to be baptised in a Catholic church to be accepted for admission. AFAIK you also have the right to have your child withdrawn from RE lessons.
By and large nowadays not one brass farthing comes from the Catholic Church towards CCMS schools other than maybe the building is built on Church grounds and if you dig deeper those Church grounds were probably left to them by someone in their will possibly written by the local PP anyway.
That priest in Dunboyne turning on the SVP is for the birds.
Never turn on the people.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 02:08:30 PM
Is being a catholic and not agreeing with everything the church does, not the same as being a GAA member and not agreeing with everything they do?
Actually, the church waiver a lot more of their own rules than the GAA do. Anyway, this is not a GAA/church thing, I'm just saying like.
There's a great deal more democratic control in the GAA than in the Catholic church. If you want change to happen in the GAA you state your case, you lobby for it, you convince people to adopt your ideas, they get voted on, and you achieve your goals if you do a good enough job of it. How do you bring about change in the Catholic church? Wait for a more enlightened Pope to be appointed?
The Catholic Church isn't a democracy, it's a Hierarchical body where the instructions come from the top.
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
Guy, I agree with most of what you're saying but isn't considering yourself catholic but not agreeing with many aspects of it a complete contradiction?
I agree with many of the teachings of the church yet I don't believe. That does make me a catholic?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 02:08:30 PM
Is being a catholic and not agreeing with everything the church does, not the same as being a GAA member and not agreeing with everything they do?
Actually, the church waiver a lot more of their own rules than the GAA do. Anyway, this is not a GAA/church thing, I'm just saying like.
There's a great deal more democratic control in the GAA than in the Catholic church. If you want change to happen in the GAA you state your case, you lobby for it, you convince people to adopt your ideas, they get voted on, and you achieve your goals if you do a good enough job of it. How do you bring about change in the Catholic church? Wait for a more enlightened Pope to be appointed?
Until it gets to Congress, and your county board representative votes whichever way he feels like. Often ignoring the status quo.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 07:34:29 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 02:08:30 PM
Is being a catholic and not agreeing with everything the church does, not the same as being a GAA member and not agreeing with everything they do?
Actually, the church waiver a lot more of their own rules than the GAA do. Anyway, this is not a GAA/church thing, I'm just saying like.
There's a great deal more democratic control in the GAA than in the Catholic church. If you want change to happen in the GAA you state your case, you lobby for it, you convince people to adopt your ideas, they get voted on, and you achieve your goals if you do a good enough job of it. How do you bring about change in the Catholic church? Wait for a more enlightened Pope to be appointed?
Until it gets to Congress, and your county board representative votes whichever way he feels like. Often ignoring the status quo.
In which case you should have lobbied your county board members harder.
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 31, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.
What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 08:18:32 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 07:34:29 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 06:25:14 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on May 31, 2018, 02:08:30 PM
Is being a catholic and not agreeing with everything the church does, not the same as being a GAA member and not agreeing with everything they do?
Actually, the church waiver a lot more of their own rules than the GAA do. Anyway, this is not a GAA/church thing, I'm just saying like.
There's a great deal more democratic control in the GAA than in the Catholic church. If you want change to happen in the GAA you state your case, you lobby for it, you convince people to adopt your ideas, they get voted on, and you achieve your goals if you do a good enough job of it. How do you bring about change in the Catholic church? Wait for a more enlightened Pope to be appointed?
Until it gets to Congress, and your county board representative votes whichever way he feels like. Often ignoring the status quo.
In which case you should have lobbied your county board members harder.
Would it really matter? A county board rep could go agàinst 99% of that county's members, and not be held culpable. That's what the CPA were hoping to eradicate last time out. Until votes are shown, that will continue.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
I'm not sure why you're asking ME this, Esmarelda. I think you can anticipate my answer, which is no, since there is no God. As I understand it, the cardinals are locked up in a room until they agree on one of their number to be Pope. As you can imagine, it usually doesn't take too long.
Yea you fcuked him up in 1996.
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 31, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
What is this nonsense? I want my friends and family around me when something's wrong, not a lad in a collar and a flash car.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 08:23:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 31, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.
What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?
Hey - congratulations.
I think you can have a civil ceremony anywhere. You go to the local authority registration office and register the marriage with the two witnesses, etc. After that, you can have any ceremony you want in the hotel.
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Did I see someone gathering sticks on Sunday? Stone that man to death outside the gates of the city!
Earlier I saw someone calling his father a fool. He shall be put to death. And he who striketh his father shall surely be put to death! Leviticus says so, and that's the basis of western law!
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
Quote from: Hardy on May 31, 2018, 08:36:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
I'm not sure why you're asking ME this, Esmarelda. I think you can anticipate my answer, which is no, since there is no God. As I understand it, the cardinals are locked up in a room until they agree on one of their number to be Pope. As you can imagine, it usually doesn't take too long.
I'm just pointing out that Catholics don't seem their hierarchy as being self-appointed. Perhaps you knew that.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 10:45:47 PM
Did I see someone gathering sticks on Sunday? Stone that man to death outside the gates of the city!
Earlier I saw someone calling his father a fool. He shall be put to death. And he who striketh his father shall surely be put to death! Leviticus says so, and that's the basis of western law!
Old Testament .
Christianity/Catholicism based on New Testament.
Would have expected a smart buck like you to know that.
Ah yes, the old adage that Christianity invented the "don't be an awful ****" way of thinking about how one should live their lives.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Niche?
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:07:40 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 31, 2018, 08:36:27 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
I'm not sure why you're asking ME this, Esmarelda. I think you can anticipate my answer, which is no, since there is no God. As I understand it, the cardinals are locked up in a room until they agree on one of their number to be Pope. As you can imagine, it usually doesn't take too long.
I'm just pointing out that Catholics don't seem their hierarchy as being self-appointed. Perhaps you knew that.
Oh - OK. Self appointed was loose terminology. I meant these characters got to direct people's lives for no other reason than being appointed by other characters like themselves who had been appointed by characters like themselves ....
Sorry I meant neechay
:P
Quote from: Rossfan on May 31, 2018, 11:54:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 10:45:47 PM
Did I see someone gathering sticks on Sunday? Stone that man to death outside the gates of the city!
Earlier I saw someone calling his father a fool. He shall be put to death. And he who striketh his father shall surely be put to death! Leviticus says so, and that's the basis of western law!
Old Testament .
Christianity/Catholicism based on New Testament.
Would have expected a smart buck like you to know that.
Oh I've heard people cherry-pick from Old and New Testaments to suit whatever ideology they're pushing. I'm quite familiar with the "ah but the OT doesn't apply to me, guv" excuse.
I always get a good laugh at people claiming that the law of the land is based on biblical legends. Take the Ten Commandments, which some eejits in America think are significant enough that they deserve to be put on display in big sheets of granite in the courthouse where they probably think they're being enforced:
- "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me" - Not enshrined in civil or criminal law
- "You shall not make for yourself an idol" - Perfectly legal to make an idol
- "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God" - Perfectly legal to swear the bit out
- "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" - Not many laws in place enforcing this in a lot of western countries now
- "Honor your Father and Mother" - Not enshrined in law
- "You shall not kill/murder*" - Enshrined in law, flouted in a dwindling number of death penalty countries most of which are outside western "Christendom"
- "You shall not commit adultery" - Not enshrined in law in western countries
- "You shall not steal" - Enshrined in law
- "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" - Enshrined in law if you're under oath, but slander and libel are civil matters where the penalties are financial
- "You shall not covet your neighbor's house" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
- "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 01, 2018, 04:18:55 AM
I always get a good laugh at people claiming that the law of the land is based on biblical legends. Take the Ten Commandments, which some eejits in America think are significant enough that they deserve to be put on display in big sheets of granite in the courthouse where they probably think they're being enforced:
- "I am the Lord your God, you shall have no other gods before me" - Not enshrined in civil or criminal law
- "You shall not make for yourself an idol" - Perfectly legal to make an idol
- "You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God" - Perfectly legal to swear the bit out
- "Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy" - Not many laws in place enforcing this in a lot of western countries now
- "Honor your Father and Mother" - Not enshrined in law
- "You shall not kill/murder*" - Enshrined in law, flouted in a dwindling number of death penalty countries most of which are outside western "Christendom"
- "You shall not commit adultery" - Not enshrined in law in western countries
- "You shall not steal" - Enshrined in law
- "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor" - Enshrined in law if you're under oath, but slander and libel are civil matters where the penalties are financial
- "You shall not covet your neighbor's house" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
- "You shall not covet your neighbor's wife" - Perfectly legal, we don't have thought-crime laws
Not sure if any anthropologist would deny the influence that religion has in the formation of civilization and continues to have even in countries that the majority profess irreligious. I guess its hard to see the wood for the trees sometimes
I think we all know it is considered generally socially unacceptable to:
Swear: we all do it of course but that's actually probably part of the reason why we do it
Have false idols: Money being the most obvious.
Honour our parents
Commit adultery: and it actually does impact your position during divorce proceeding in effect the terms of a legal contract have been breached
Covet your neighbour's wife
Covet your neighbour's possessions: although this is probably more for your own self esteem and inner balance
Sunday is also still the main day which we are most likely not to be working and most likely to spend doing something we believe life is for, for most of us that means family.
Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?
Before the Famine people were pretty relaxed about sex. Marriage happened young and there were lots of kids. Female sexuality was not an issue. There may even have been gays, lesbians, bacon and tomato.
After the Famine catholics were traumatised. Children died in front of their parents. The population was slashed. Female sexuality was policed by civil society including the holy Catholic and most apostolic church. No marriage without land. Extreme patriarchy. No sexual expression.
No homosexuality. No abortion. No single mothers. No tampons
The Catholic church followed the people on that. It worked for a long time. Pilgrimages and holy water and first holy communion and Jesus and Mary assist me now and in my last agony and candles and Thuribles plus incense.
It could have had a different role for the last 170 years but it didn't. It can be anything. It just has to find a different model.
When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus.
Quote from: seafoid on June 01, 2018, 06:38:58 AM
When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus.
So maybe the Columban order should take over the Catholic parishes in Ireland? They have Columbanus at the heart of their ethos. Bobbio - I will get there some day :D
Quote from: Rois on June 01, 2018, 07:26:47 AM
Quote from: seafoid on June 01, 2018, 06:38:58 AM
When Columbanus was running the show in the 7th century the model was excellence. Nobody fucked with Columbanus.
So maybe the Columban order should take over the Catholic parishes in Ireland? They have Columbanus at the heart of their ethos. Bobbio - I will get there some day :D
I would love to go there too.
Bobbio lasted over a thousand years.
Maynooth less than 200.
We don't actually know how many religions behaved in the past
How they treated their followers or how their head honchos used their status
It's the judgemental nature of the Catholic church and it's most pious members that is such a massive contradiction. Live your own lives. Try to live and good life and if possible help others who may not be as fortunate as yourself. Leave the judging to the man above as per the Catholic church teaching.
It isn't rocket science. No need for a tenth of the bullshit.
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
Guy, I agree with most of what you're saying but isn't considering yourself catholic but not agreeing with many aspects of it a complete contradiction?
I agree with many of the teachings of the church yet I don't believe. That does make me a catholic?
[/b][/i]
oh a complete contradiction, that's what i could never understand, i'd discuss it with people and they would outline what they believe and what they dont believe and id say to them ''what you are describing as your perfect situation is almost exactly the teachings of the Anglican church, why dont you just join them'' and they would break their shite laughing at me and say 'ah no,no,no, 'i'm a catholic i could never do that'.
then I'd call them all the hypocrites under the sun and they would shrug their shoulders and say some along the lines of ''sure wasn't Jesus a hypocrite didn't he turn water into wine and anyway you have to turn the other cheek''
as for control of the schools, this is the institutional church's last stand, they will cling onto this with all their diminishing might.
they have the upper hand here too as they own the buildings and the land so they will be hard to shift.
Quote from: guy crouchback on June 01, 2018, 09:23:55 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 07:14:38 PM
Hardy, is it not the case that the cardinals, guided by God, appoint the Pope and so the appointment is actually made by God himself, indirectly?
Guy, I agree with most of what you're saying but isn't considering yourself catholic but not agreeing with many aspects of it a complete contradiction?
I agree with many of the teachings of the church yet I don't believe. That does make me a catholic?
[/b][/i]
oh a complete contradiction, that's what i could never understand, i'd discuss it with people and they would outline what they believe and what they dont believe and id say to them ''what you are describing as your perfect situation is almost exactly the teachings of the Anglican church, why dont you just join them'' and they would break their shite laughing at me and say 'ah no,no,no, 'i'm a catholic i could never do that'.
then I'd call them all the hypocrites under the sun and they would shrug their shoulders and say some along the lines of ''sure wasn't Jesus a hypocrite didn't he turn water into wine and anyway you have to turn the other cheek''
as for control of the schools, this is the institutional church's last stand, they will cling onto this with all their diminishing might.
they have the upper hand here too as they own the buildings and the land so they will be hard to shift.
And that's the problem too imo. Past generations of Irish people were shall I say 'persecuted' by this denomination. It's often said the Irish remained Catholic despite Rome, not because of it.
I think said explanation gives one of the reasons why.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 08:23:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 31, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.
What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?
Congratulations Eamonn, well done.
I've been to a few civil ceremonies, and I don't think there is any restriction, as long as the owner of the venue is ok with it.
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 11:59:06 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 31, 2018, 08:23:37 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on May 31, 2018, 07:10:28 PM
I always remember my Grandmother talking about this, the same people who contribute nothing to the Church contributions, are the same people complaining when the Priest can't find an available date for a wedding or a Christening. You don't want to christen children then don't. Its simples. But I will make the point that whenever something drastic happens in life 99% of the time the local Priest is called and he offers a sympathetic/guiding ear, so be careful what ye wish for.
I got married last week in a civil ceremony in a perfectly nice location. Our officiant was a mate of mine who got "ordained" in something like the "Universal Life Church" that meets the bare minimum legal standard to let people become ministers to perform civil ceremonies. You fill out a form, pay a small fee, send it off, and they send you a certificate saying you're a minister. So at our ceremony we had it set up exactly as we wanted and there was no mention of Jesus or God or any of that crew. He signed the paperwork and we filed it with the county. Job done. No need for a big elaborate mass or a church or any of that nonsense.
What's the story in Ireland for people that want civil ceremonies? Is there a limited number of places where you can go to host them?
Congratulations Eamonn, well done.
I've been to a few civil ceremonies, and I don't think there is any restriction, as long as the owner of the venue is ok with it.
It has to be open to the public so that someone can do the whole Dustin Hoffman thing and run off with the bride.
Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:
1. Light and the cosmos
The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.
While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.
The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).
Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature
Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.
3. Philosophy and theology
Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.
4. Education and the university system
Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.
Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.
5. Art and architecture
Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.
6. Law and jurisprudence
The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.
7. Language
The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.
8. Music
Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).
Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.
9. The status of women
Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).
Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Of course there have been Catholics that have been a force for good in the world. Most of what is listed above is due to intelligence or talent of some kind though. Do you think the same people would have been unable to achieve that if they weren't Catholic?
Not much in the 20th and 21st centuries to date there I'm afraid.
Could they be considered the dark ages for Catholicism?
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Ask any native American from Alaska to Tierra del fuego
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAYdc2_Y82w
We weren´t lost and
We didn´t need any book
Then the great spirit
Met the great lie
Indians are jesus
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross
In the name of their savior
Forcing on us
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sind and blame
The trinity of the chain
Guilt sin and blame
Hanging from the cross
Hanging from the cross
Quote from: johnnycool on June 01, 2018, 04:07:26 PM
Not much in the 20th and 21st centuries to date there I'm afraid.
Could they be considered the dark ages for Catholicism?
You don't think they do good work today? Schools, hospitals, missionary aid, charitable work, burying the dead, providing shelter for the homeless? I'm not asking you to discount the negative but at least recognize the positive?
Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.
Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.
It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way
And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 04:29:57 PM
Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.
Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.
It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.
I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.
And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal
The exclusion of Fr Georges Lemaître from popular science shows is bizarre and would make you suspicious as to why. The discovering of redshift is probably only bettered by Einstein's Relativities in terms of influence in our understanding of the cosmos in the last century.
I don't really buy the Big Bang theory tho and have gotten the "Why? do ye think God did it or something..?" as a retort. Clearly they don't understand causality ;) but informing them that a Catholic priest came up with it is a much more effective way of assisting them to pipe down
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 04:29:57 PM
Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.
Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.
It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.
I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.
And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal
So I assume from that we an expect an evolution on teaching around homosexuality? If all persons are equal, as you say.
Columbus as an example of a force for good? Really? Empire and enslavement?
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 05:18:09 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 05:03:51 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 04:29:57 PM
Iceman, I don't think it is fair to label all criticism of the Catholic church as hate filled.
Speaking as an agnostic, I think a reformed church could well get me back through the doors at least a couple of times a year. I don't hate the Catholic Church as a concept, but I do reserve the right to strongly criticize those who have shaped its message and behaviour, which, for hundreds of years, I believe to be the antithesis of Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
But whilst the Church may be eternal, its teachings are not. A couple of years back, during the marriage equality debate, I think I listed some of the many times that the Church has changed its doctrine both in terms of theology and on social issues.
It could well happen again, especially under this Pope. We live in hope.
I agree that the doctrine can appear to rigid sometime and is somewhat contradictory at times, but using faith as a basis it is built up from there and is reasonably logical.
And we know it can change however it must be inline with some of the basic tenents of the faith. We are constantly discovering new things our lives are a constant search for truth and morality so I think it is fair to say that our understanding of right and wrong can evolve also.
We used to believe slavery was fine for example, probably justified in terms of introducing slaves to civilization, feed and watering them, provided them with security etc etc and they contributing by provided much needed labour. Now however we see slavery as fundamental wrong and that all persons are equal
So I assume from that we an expect an evolution on teaching around homosexuality? If all persons are equal, as you say.
Maybe a lot of priests are gay so who knows, but it is unlikely not sure but I think its mainly because it is a bit of a paradox to Catholic marriage.
Not if the church considers all persons to be equal. Seems a bit inconsistent.
Quote from: easytiger95 on June 01, 2018, 05:32:37 PM
Not if the church considers all persons to be equal. Seems a bit inconsistent.
Oh I agree it can be inconsistent, weighing one thing against another is were logic gets difficult
You see on the other hand one of the basic tenets of Catholic marriage (and life) involves introducing more persons to this life.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:34:47 PM
Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:
1. Light and the cosmos
The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.
While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.
The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).
Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature
Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.
3. Philosophy and theology
Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.
4. Education and the university system
Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.
Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.
5. Art and architecture
Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.
6. Law and jurisprudence
The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.
7. Language
The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.
8. Music
Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).
Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.
9. The status of women
Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).
Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.
The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.
And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 05:33:25 AM
Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?
Ha! Thanks. Honeymoon's done and dusted. Had a relaxing weekend up in Squaw Valley. It's a winter ski resort but it's beautiful up there in the summer too.
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check. Because you put a check against something doesn't mean you're right. Such a sweeping statement, please educate us somewhere on the foundation of this Sid?
Prejudice against immigrants - check. You live in Ireland right? No prejudice there against immigrants? Or is it only them catholics who don't like them? I'm an immigrant in America. I did it the right way and I had no bother. America has been good to me. I speak from personal experience.
Climate change denial - check. I believe in climate change. I don't know how you blame religion on that one - again please explain?
Poor education - check. Christianity started education - please explain how religion is to blame for poor education?
Opposition to abortion - check. There are many atheists and agnostics who oppose abortion, including on this board
Opposition to transgender rights - check. Please prove to me scientifically that Transgenderism is real and that man can be a woman just because he thinks so
Opposition to universal healthcare - check. Again please provide support for this claim?
Opposition to proper social security - check. See above
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check. See above
The gun lobby - check. You're losing all credibility here....
Neo-conservatism - check. by definition? how?
The pro-Israel lobby - check. "christians" are completely divided on this around the world
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology. please.....
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
Really? Please educate us all on how these issues are based on religion? Do these issues exist outside of a religious country? Are they only in Ireland and the U.S? Religion is the common denominator? Or are people?
Again I don't need to change your mind. I just can't let you post tripe and not call it out.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 01, 2018, 06:17:17 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 05:33:25 AM
Congratulations by the way, dont tell me your posting this on honeymoon Eammon?
Ha! Thanks. Honeymoon's done and dusted. Had a relaxing weekend up in Squaw Valley. It's a winter ski resort but it's beautiful up there in the summer too.
Can't believe you bought a Groupon for your honeymoon.
You can take the man out of Armagh...
Congrats!
Christianity started education...
What?
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this
Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform
The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.
Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.
Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously
Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?
Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders
The rest of these I find hilarious:
Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?
I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.
Quote from: gallsman on June 01, 2018, 07:28:01 PM
Christianity started education...
What?
Pinpointing that would be difficult but we know that Islam invented Universities and Catholicism borrowed the idea and extended them to Western civilization
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 01, 2018, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:34:47 PM
Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:
1. Light and the cosmos
The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.
While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.
The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).
Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature
Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.
3. Philosophy and theology
Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.
4. Education and the university system
Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.
Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.
5. Art and architecture
Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.
6. Law and jurisprudence
The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.
7. Language
The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.
8. Music
Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).
Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.
9. The status of women
Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).
Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.
The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.
And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.
Didn't he specifically say the Pope was wrong or something, and it was more like a personal vendetta.
His house arrest was shameful, tho it did have an upside for kinematics I think
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way
And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.
Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
How is this anything to do with freedom of religion being impinged? Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. Pure Trumpian whataboutery.
Quote from: gallsman on June 01, 2018, 08:37:26 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
How is this anything to do with freedom of religion being impinged? Nobody is suggesting anything of the sort. Pure Trumpian whataboutery.
Why don't you answer some of the questions instead of posing your own?
It's a genuine concern. What role does religion have in your ideal Ireland?
In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.
In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.
This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.
Quote from: gallsman on June 01, 2018, 08:52:54 PM
In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.
In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.
This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.
People have expressed their delight at church attendance dwindling. Why wouldn't I be concerned? You have expressed your disdain for the church (sorry I'm too lazy to go back and quote exactly). Seems markedly different than what you wrote above..... and how do I keep it private? Never talk about it? No outward signs of faith outside the home or place of worship? Are we allowed a place of worship where it can be seen or should those be underground or out in the woods somewhere? (the last parts are tongue in cheek but you get the sentiment)
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:58:38 PM
Quote from: gallsman on June 01, 2018, 08:52:54 PM
In the running of the state apparatus? Absolutely none whatsoever.
In the private lives on individual citizens? Whatever they want it too.
This really isn't difficult. Why are you banging on about freedom of religion? Nobody is suggesting you should be denied the right to practice your religion in the slightest.
People have expressed their delight at church attendance dwindling. Why wouldn't I be concerned? You have expressed your disdain for the church (sorry I'm too lazy to go back and quote exactly). Seems markedly different than what you wrote above..... and how do I keep it private? Never talk about it? No outward signs of faith outside the home or place of worship? Are we allowed a place of worship where it can be seen or should those be underground or out in the woods somewhere? (the last parts are tongue in cheek but you get the sentiment)
Of course your are. Nobody has said you're not.
What people do want is separation of Church and State, just the 240 odd years after a bunch of old WASPs in America realised it was a good idea.
My complete and utter disdain for the church has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your freedom or ability to practice your religion. Pretending otherwise is nonsense.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
I'd take that aggressiveness you're seeing and ask you to consider why you're seeing it? To me it's on a par with the Kaepernick kneeling situation. Some people have absolutely had enough. That's something the church needs to understand - in my opinion.
I don't think the church won't exist, so I don't think I'll have to stand up and fight for it to exist. But it will be rightly separated from state matters.
You asked this question of Gallsman - What role does religion have in your ideal Ireland?
Religion will exist in my ideal Ireland. But it will exist privately for individuals and it will not control society and life how it formerly did. I'm not out here to tell you or me mam not to be a Catholic. But I'm not out here to have the church shape my life. I would not fight for existence of a church that continues to attempt to dominate the fabric of a society.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
Teachers also show people who to kick balls and sing.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?
How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all. Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.
My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all. I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did). Peace to you both
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?
How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all. Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.
My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all. I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did). Peace to you both
Do you not understand the concept of separation between church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 09:53:24 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?
How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all. Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.
My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all. I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did). Peace to you both
Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?
???
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 09:53:24 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?
How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all. Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.
My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all. I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did). Peace to you both
Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?
I can't ever imagine this happening. Unlike the will of the people regards to Abortion or same sex marriage, its the uncertainty of death that will keep Religion relevant and I for one welcome this and I hope it remains the same.
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 09:53:24 PM
Do you not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, or are you being wilfully dense?
I do not understand the concept of spermatic nbetween church and state, I have to say.
No doubt some cross-fertilisation is involved.
^^^ That's how I see it. Not taking sides either but if you've to say for better or for worse - my money is on better.
I know exactly one person my age that is religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this
Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform
The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.
Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.
Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously
Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?
Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders
The rest of these I find hilarious:
Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?
I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.
I didn't specify the Roman Catholic Church. I specified "religion".
US politics is divided along cultural lines. People who self-identify as "Christians" overwhelmingly vote Republican.
"Christian politics" encompasses all the issues I mention.
White evangelicals are a massive driver of racism in the US. That ties into their opposition to immigration and support for plainly abhorrent Republican positions in general. Conservative Roman Catholics in the US tend to be pretty similar in their outlook to evangelicals, as Iceman has proved.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south
The Iraq War, the starting point of the utter chaos that has engulfed the Middle East since 2003, was "a mission from God", according to the man who decided to start it.
Those who supported slavery invoked their "God-given" rights.
The creation of Israel as a country, and support for it elsewhere, particularly when it comes to murder and grave human rights abuses, is driven by religious fantaticism, both among Jews and Christians who are obsessed with a 2,000 year old fantasy.
You can justify anything with religion, really, which just goes to demonstrate that it should have no place whatsoever in public life.
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
You have either a very strange circle of friends or a very old circle of friends.
Because they couldn't be more unrepresentative of the habits of young people in modern Ireland.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
Of course it should still be allowed to exist. It's the church having an official role in state business that we're opposed to.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 01, 2018, 09:49:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
Teachers also show people who to kick balls and sing.
And if they didn't there would still be plenty of non-teachers doing it. You reckon members of the clergy would fill the gap that teachers currently occupy if teachers didn't do it? I've spoken to a few teachers who have taught the communion year and they've all (three of them) told me that it eats into the time that's meant to be spent on other subjects. The priests swan in every now and then to make sure everything's on track but contribute very little to the preparations.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 09:50:56 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 09:10:59 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 08:30:04 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on June 01, 2018, 07:46:25 PM
I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.
Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.
Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.
I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?
What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?
As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.
The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?
How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all. Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.
My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all. I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did). Peace to you both
What do mean by "anything goes" in this hypothetical society you speak of?
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:37:16 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this
Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform
The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.
Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.
Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously
Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?
Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders
The rest of these I find hilarious:
Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?
I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.
I didn't specify the Roman Catholic Church. I specified "religion".
US politics is divided along cultural lines. People who self-identify as "Christians" overwhelmingly vote Republican.
"Christian politics" encompasses all the issues I mention.
White evangelicals are a massive driver of racism in the US. That ties into their opposition to immigration and support for plainly abhorrent Republican positions in general. Conservative Roman Catholics in the US tend to be pretty similar in their outlook to evangelicals, as Iceman has proved.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south
The Iraq War, the starting point of the utter chaos that has engulfed the Middle East since 2003, was "a mission from God", according to the man who decided to start it.
Those who supported slavery invoked their "God-given" rights.
The creation of Israel as a country, and support for it elsewhere, particularly when it comes to murder and grave human rights abuses, is driven by religious fantaticism, both among Jews and Christians who are obsessed with a 2,000 year old fantasy.
You can justify anything with religion, really, which just goes to demonstrate that it should have no place whatsoever in public life.
The thread is about Catholic church, not religion in general but tear away with your straw man
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
So is the Republican party the root of all evil for you? I used to think that too but then I actually considered some of the vast points position that align with that party and discovered that the facts are way more complicated than that. Id safely say most Catholics are evenly split between the two parties in America if you want to start Rep Bad Dem good either or fallacy nonsense nonsense. Youve got another nice logical fallacy going there too that all Catholics are the same as evangelical protestants and therefore vote Republican its called the association fallacy in case your interested
There are plenty of Jews who oppose Zionism, you do get that is Nationalism and not religion that is causing the problem in the Middle East. All of those different ethnicity lived in relative harmony for centuries under the Ottoman Empire
You can justify anything without religion also. The Catholic church along with most of the main religions of the world draw a line in the sand with morality which allows society to move forward in the understanding that most of us will stay behind that line in the sand.
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.
And you're more representative than therealdonald why and/or how?
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way
And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.
Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?
You could hardly be anti Catholic unless you reject everything that was introduced and espoused by Catholic teaching now could you?... It would make more of an a la carte anti Catholic wouldnt it?
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
;)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 01, 2018, 06:15:04 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:34:47 PM
Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:
1. Light and the cosmos
The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.
While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.
The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).
Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature
Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.
Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.
3. Philosophy and theology
Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.
4. Education and the university system
Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.
Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.
5. Art and architecture
Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.
6. Law and jurisprudence
The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.
7. Language
The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.
8. Music
Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).
Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.
9. The status of women
Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).
Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.
The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.
And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.
:o FFS
Your only married 5mins are going soft already Eammon!
Squaw valley... nice..btw
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:35:45 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way
And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.
Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?
You could hardly be anti Catholic unless you reject everything that was introduced and espoused by Catholic teaching now could you?... It would make more of an a la carte anti Catholic wouldnt it?
I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.
However, the thread, as I see it, is to do with catholocism's place in Irish society. I think it was you that used the term anti-catholic, however I'm not sure anyone else has used it or considers themself "anti-catholic".
There are those that believe in the god as taught by the catholic church. They consider themselves catholic. This god has a representative on earth and the teachings change with time. I don't think there's anything that says it's ok to not adhere to or not believe in the teachings as a whole. With that in mind, I find it strange that people consider themselves catholic when they knowingly don't practice as they've been taught to.
On the other hand, there are people that don't believe in this god. However, they happen to agree with some of the teachings. This may be down to education historically coming from the church but it's irrelevant as the whole concept of this god means nothing to them.
So I would say that if you consider yourself a catholic then the onus is on you to follow the rules in full, so to speak. Non-subscribers, I suppose, will act without this burden as they don't believe in it. They're not anti-anything, they're just not catholic.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.
Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.
As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.
Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 11:55:40 PM
I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.
Single most preposterous thing that's been mentioned in the whole thread.
Quote from: gallsman on June 02, 2018, 12:03:07 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 11:55:40 PM
I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.
Single most preposterous thing that's been mentioned in the whole thread.
;D
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 02, 2018, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.
Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.
As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.
Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.
It's been open season on the church for a very long fûcking time. They painted a bulleye on their own arses through evil deeds, arrogance and exertion of control that at times made even the government itself cower in reveriantal fear. By the way, many 'laypersons' where fully complicit in the mother & baby homes and work houses run by the chruch so let's not pretend that they weren't hugely to blame for aiding and abeiting your precious religious order. You don't get to support an orgaisnation like this and not get dirt under your fingernails, either by simple wilful ignorance or active participation. The veneer of respectability has long since been striped away from the sort of people you profess to belong to with posts like this.
I can't believe that you're pretending like the referendum result that had feck all to do with the church materially effected that at all. I suppose the last resort for those who lose an argument and still don't want to admit they were wrong is to just invent things to make themselves feel better.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
The old Stalin / Hitler / Pol Pot trope. Standard rebuttal: Stalin was a paranoid lunatic who thought everyone was out to get him and came to power in a communist state that rewarded despotism.
Hitler was raised a Catholic, taught to hate Jews, and dabbled in the occult. His atrocities had many motivations (chiefly making Germany great again), but disproving the existence of God was not one of them.
Pol Pot's communism was so extreme even the Soviets were aghast. His regime opposed the existence of religion, minority groups, western-educated intellectuals, educated people, or anyone that had been touched by foreign influence. To describe his actions as being "in the name of atheism" is a gross oversimplification at best.
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 02, 2018, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.
Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.
As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.
Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/146/716/7cc.jpg)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2018, 12:25:29 AM
Quote from: The Boy Wonder on June 02, 2018, 12:00:52 AM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.
Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.
As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.
Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.
or living in their parents basement
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/146/716/7cc.jpg)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2018, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
The old Stalin / Hitler / Pol Pot trope. Standard rebuttal: Stalin was a paranoid lunatic who thought everyone was out to get him and came to power in a communist state that rewarded despotism.
Hitler was raised a Catholic, taught to hate Jews, and dabbled in the occult. His atrocities had many motivations (chiefly making Germany great again), but disproving the existence of God was not one of them.
Pol Pot's communism was so extreme even the Soviets were aghast. His regime opposed the existence of religion, minority groups, western-educated intellectuals, educated people, or anyone that had been touched by foreign influence. To describe his actions as being "in the name of atheism" is a gross oversimplification at best.
Firstly I was replying to a point that said that the War in Iraq was instigated by religion which is clealry nonsennse so I was crudely trying to draw some parallels. But its a fair point Eammon I was probably overstating "in the name of atheism" for effect. Tho in the case of Pol Pot and in China it would not be unfair to say a large influence on the genocide was inspried by anti-theism, which also seems to be the basis for the recent surge of pop atheism.
Hilter too had similar personal influences.
The overriding cause for their actions tho I believe was an over-focus on their ideologies with no regard for anything else other than their end goal and no regard for how they got there, ends justify the means and all that. And that I believe was at least partly because once in power they had a complete disregard for their conscience, or a higher power, both of which their ideology reasoned away and demonised.
To put this in terms of today society I am concerned by Leaders who dont believe in something, they believe they are Emperor who answers to no one, they can easily invent their own standards for their own reasons
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 11:55:40 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:35:45 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 08:31:50 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 04:54:41 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on June 01, 2018, 10:10:08 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 12:16:26 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on May 31, 2018, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 31, 2018, 10:24:00 PM
Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.
I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.
Joe, are you being disingenuous?
If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.
No... are you Esm?
A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality
Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?
No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way
And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.
Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?
You could hardly be anti Catholic unless you reject everything that was introduced and espoused by Catholic teaching now could you?... It would make more of an a la carte anti Catholic wouldnt it?
I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.
However, the thread, as I see it, is to do with catholocism's place in Irish society. I think it was you that used the term anti-catholic, however I'm not sure anyone else has used it or considers themself "anti-catholic".
There are those that believe in the god as taught by the catholic church. They consider themselves catholic. This god has a representative on earth and the teachings change with time. I don't think there's anything that says it's ok to not adhere to or not believe in the teachings as a whole. With that in mind, I find it strange that people consider themselves catholic when they knowingly don't practice as they've been taught to.
On the other hand, there are people that don't believe in this god. However, they happen to agree with some of the teachings. This may be down to education historically coming from the church but it's irrelevant as the whole concept of this god means nothing to them.
So I would say that if you consider yourself a catholic then the onus is on you to follow the rules in full, so to speak. Non-subscribers, I suppose, will act without this burden as they don't believe in it. They're not anti-anything, they're just not catholic.
Esm
The OP was about a post Catholic Ireland and there were numerous comments predicting and celebrating the demise of the Catholic church and its teachings I added my 2ps worth by basically saying that it would be pretty hard to do that since a great many society norms and standards are basically Catholic norms.
If its post catholic, anti catholic whatever its all the same, as its using the Catholic church/theology/doctrines as a reference point. So yes you are right the onus is on Catholics to adhere to Catholic standards, which I fail frequently with and am uncomfortable with some of it so its probably not unfair to say that i am a bit of an a la Carte Catholic if you want (incidentally I dont really as I believe the church is the congregation which has many individual opinions). But using the same logic at its also true to say if you are post-Catholic or opposed to Catholic teachings then you need to oppose the lot otherwise your also an a la carte anti-catholic
If you want to talk about a post Catholic society you need to tear down all standards and morality that exist, decide on a basis and then built it up from there otherwise its really only an an al carte Catholic society or a la carte anti-Catholic society.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
If you want to talk about a post Catholic society you need to tear down all standards and morality that exist, decide on a basis and then built it up from there otherwise its really only an an al carte Catholic society or a la carte anti-Catholic society.
Absolute rubbish.
"Don't kill people" has nothing to do with being Catholic or not. There's no need to "tear it down and rebuild"
Your logic is deeply flawed.
Quote from: gallsman on June 02, 2018, 08:56:50 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2018, 08:53:07 AM
If you want to talk about a post Catholic society you need to tear down all standards and morality that exist, decide on a basis and then built it up from there otherwise its really only an an al carte Catholic society or a la carte anti-Catholic society.
Absolute rubbish.
"Don't kill people" has nothing to do with being Catholic or not. There's no need to "tear it down and rebuild"
Your logic is deeply flawed.
Huh? I didnt say it did, but many societal standards are.
Tho thinking about it.... Catholicism has a clear reasoning for why you should not kill,.... so why should you not kill?
Yes, you did. You said you would need to tear down ALL standards and morality.
As for why not killing people is wrong? Human morality and nature. Murder was taboo and punished long before the Catholic church came around.
I think of my best mates there are about 5 of them that Catholic light - they will go to mass the odd time, marry in church etc. It's almost cultural not religious. Another 4 have zero truck with the church. 1 is religious.
Of the 10, only 1 would agree to keep the church within the schools the way it is today.
Joe, Ireland can move on without the church at the centre of its society without anybody being anti-catholic. People can carry on in the knowledge of the church's history and its previous role in the country while accepting that it still exists in a much smaller capacity. There's no test required of how post or anti church anyone is. The children of non-believers can hardly be considered post or anti church if they've not been brought up under its influence in the first place.
And after me complimenting your debating skills ;)
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 10:37:16 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 07:30:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on June 01, 2018, 06:08:14 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on June 01, 2018, 03:57:32 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on June 01, 2018, 03:42:27 PM
You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.
Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.
Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.
Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".
I gather you live in the US.
Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.
Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.
Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.
Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.
The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this
Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform
The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.
Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.
Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously
Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?
Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders
The rest of these I find hilarious:
Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?
I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.
I didn't specify the Roman Catholic Church. I specified "religion".
US politics is divided along cultural lines. People who self-identify as "Christians" overwhelmingly vote Republican.
"Christian politics" encompasses all the issues I mention.
White evangelicals are a massive driver of racism in the US. That ties into their opposition to immigration and support for plainly abhorrent Republican positions in general. Conservative Roman Catholics in the US tend to be pretty similar in their outlook to evangelicals, as Iceman has proved.
https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south
The Iraq War, the starting point of the utter chaos that has engulfed the Middle East since 2003, was "a mission from God", according to the man who decided to start it.
Those who supported slavery invoked their "God-given" rights.
The creation of Israel as a country, and support for it elsewhere, particularly when it comes to murder and grave human rights abuses, is driven by religious fantaticism, both among Jews and Christians who are obsessed with a 2,000 year old fantasy.
You can justify anything with religion, really, which just goes to demonstrate that it should have no place whatsoever in public life.
The thread is about Catholic church, not religion in general but tear away with your straw man
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
So is the Republican party the root of all evil for you? I used to think that too but then I actually considered some of the vast points position that align with that party and discovered that the facts are way more complicated than that. Id safely say most Catholics are evenly split between the two parties in America if you want to start Rep Bad Dem good either or fallacy nonsense nonsense. Youve got another nice logical fallacy going there too that all Catholics are the same as evangelical protestants and therefore vote Republican its called the association fallacy in case your interested
There are plenty of Jews who oppose Zionism, you do get that is Nationalism and not religion that is causing the problem in the Middle East. All of those different ethnicity lived in relative harmony for centuries under the Ottoman Empire
You can justify anything without religion also. The Catholic church along with most of the main religions of the world draw a line in the sand with morality which allows society to move forward in the understanding that most of us will stay behind that line in the sand.
You don't get to choose what's discussed and what isn't mate.
Try not to use the term "logical fallacy" - it just makes you look foolish. It's the go to term for an internet blowhard woth nothing to say.
I get what's happening in both the US and the Middle East just fine, thanks.
Religion is a cancer in the US - for decades "christians" have been indoctrinating children with nonsense in an effort to produce the next generation of Republican voters.
As for your assertion that religion has nothing to do with what's happening in the Middle East - lol. Religion has everything to do with what Israel has done and the support it receives in the US. Religion drives nationaliism, which in another cancer on humnaity.
You continue to whitewash the Roman Catholic Church. That's what a fantasist does.
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2018, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2018, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
The old Stalin / Hitler / Pol Pot trope. Standard rebuttal: Stalin was a paranoid lunatic who thought everyone was out to get him and came to power in a communist state that rewarded despotism.
Hitler was raised a Catholic, taught to hate Jews, and dabbled in the occult. His atrocities had many motivations (chiefly making Germany great again), but disproving the existence of God was not one of them.
Pol Pot's communism was so extreme even the Soviets were aghast. His regime opposed the existence of religion, minority groups, western-educated intellectuals, educated people, or anyone that had been touched by foreign influence. To describe his actions as being "in the name of atheism" is a gross oversimplification at best.
Firstly I was replying to a point that said that the War in Iraq was instigated by religion which is clealry nonsennse so I was crudely trying to draw some parallels. But its a fair point Eammon I was probably overstating "in the name of atheism" for effect. Tho in the case of Pol Pot and in China it would not be unfair to say a large influence on the genocide was inspried by anti-theism, which also seems to be the basis for the recent surge of pop atheism.
Hilter too had similar personal influences.
The overriding cause for their actions tho I believe was an over-focus on their ideologies with no regard for anything else other than their end goal and no regard for how they got there, ends justify the means and all that. And that I believe was at least partly because once in power they had a complete disregard for their conscience, or a higher power, both of which their ideology reasoned away and demonised.
To put this in terms of today society I am concerned by Leaders who dont believe in something, they believe they are Emperor who answers to no one, they can easily invent their own standards for their own reasons
Those who decided to wage war in Iraq believed they were on a mission from God.
Even a cursory look at the language they used to justify it will tell you that.
To deny the role of religion in the US's decision to go to war in Iraq is to deny reality.
Quote from: sid waddell on June 02, 2018, 12:20:53 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 02, 2018, 08:22:05 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 02, 2018, 12:24:10 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 01, 2018, 11:29:39 PM
I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion
The old Stalin / Hitler / Pol Pot trope. Standard rebuttal: Stalin was a paranoid lunatic who thought everyone was out to get him and came to power in a communist state that rewarded despotism.
Hitler was raised a Catholic, taught to hate Jews, and dabbled in the occult. His atrocities had many motivations (chiefly making Germany great again), but disproving the existence of God was not one of them.
Pol Pot's communism was so extreme even the Soviets were aghast. His regime opposed the existence of religion, minority groups, western-educated intellectuals, educated people, or anyone that had been touched by foreign influence. To describe his actions as being "in the name of atheism" is a gross oversimplification at best.
Firstly I was replying to a point that said that the War in Iraq was instigated by religion which is clealry nonsennse so I was crudely trying to draw some parallels. But its a fair point Eammon I was probably overstating "in the name of atheism" for effect. Tho in the case of Pol Pot and in China it would not be unfair to say a large influence on the genocide was inspried by anti-theism, which also seems to be the basis for the recent surge of pop atheism.
Hilter too had similar personal influences.
The overriding cause for their actions tho I believe was an over-focus on their ideologies with no regard for anything else other than their end goal and no regard for how they got there, ends justify the means and all that. And that I believe was at least partly because once in power they had a complete disregard for their conscience, or a higher power, both of which their ideology reasoned away and demonised.
To put this in terms of today society I am concerned by Leaders who dont believe in something, they believe they are Emperor who answers to no one, they can easily invent their own standards for their own reasons
Those who decided to wage war in Iraq believed they were on a mission from God.
Even a cursory look at the language they used to justify it will tell you that.
To deny the role of religion in the US's decision to go to war in Iraq is to deny reality.
I'm confused. Are you saying it was the Blues Brothers who invaded Iraq?
Quote from: bennydorano on June 01, 2018, 11:34:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.
And you're more representative than therealdonald why and/or how?
In the land of Sufferus he is the Alpha, Omega, King, Queen even God. Their is no one like him not even Sid. He is the highest power.
Syf thinks he knows everything about everything.
He is the Supreme Eejit.
One or 2 more not too far behind but they are still only apprentices compared to the Supreme one.
Poor Syf. Getting it on here from Rudi and Rossfan, guveballaghback over on the GAA side. All Rossies, is he really that bad on stolensheep?
Quote from: Rudi on June 02, 2018, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on June 01, 2018, 11:34:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.
And you're more representative than therealdonald why and/or how?
In the land of Sufferus he is the Alpha, Omega, King, Queen even God. Their is no one like him not even Sid. He is the highest power.
Are you saying that young people don't have little to no engagement with the church, or did you just post this to have a go? You talk about me acting superior, yet it's posts like this that display in no uncertain terms your own obsession with appearing superior. You're the one who tries to mount the high horse rather than act like an adult.
If you don't have a good argument, shout. Seems to be yourself and Rossfan's MO on this board. I don't think you actually realise that it's your views that exist on the fringes of the mainstream and not mine.
Returning to the OP & the idea of 'A post Catholic Ireland'. It actually makes me think more about the influence of 1916 and it as a factor in the direction & influence on modern Ireland more so than the RCC. While the RCC was obviously a huge factor in Irish life before it, it ultimately was a huge beneficiary of the Rising. Without 1916 Ireland, unfettered by the Constitutionally guaranteed influence of the RCC, may have developed as a more Liberal nation in line with the rest of the UK/Europe.
Quote from: bennydorano on June 02, 2018, 04:18:28 PM
Returning to the OP & the idea of 'A post Catholic Ireland'. It actually makes me think more about the influence of 1916 and it as a factor in the direction & influence on modern Ireland more so than the RCC. While the RCC was obviously a huge factor in Irish life before it, it ultimately was a huge beneficiary of the Rising. Without 1916 Ireland, unfettered by the Constitutionally guaranteed influence of the RCC, may have developed as a more Liberal nation in line with the rest of the UK/Europe.
Quite the reverse in my opinion. The Catholic church gained influence under colonial rule, and because the unionists created an association between being a Protestant and wanting the country to be a colony. Without independence Ireland would have been something like NI is today. What might have lead to a different path would have been a measure of Home Rule from the time of Parnell, leading to independence with everyone on board.
However, the Irish Catholic Church as a product of its people as much as the people were a product of the Catholic Church.
Good point about Home Rule, if it had've been implemented on an All Ireland basis as originally intended it could have been a real game changer.
Still think my point stands tho, whereas the OP refers to a post-catholic Ireland it could quite easily be framed as the need to be a 'post 1916 influenced Ireland', the Rising and all that followed gave ROI the culture that the RCC exponentially increased (and subsequently abused) it's power in. Huge swathes of that culture are being unpicked, I just think it's much bigger than an RCC issue as the OP would suggest.
Quote from: bennydorano on June 02, 2018, 04:57:31 PM
Good point about Home Rule, if it had've been implemented on an All Ireland basis as originally intended it could have been a real game changer.
Still think my point stands tho, whereas the OP refers to a post-catholic Ireland it could quite easily be framed as the need to be a 'post 1916 influenced Ireland', the Rising and all that followed gave ROI the culture that the RCC exponentially increased (and subsequently abused) it's power in. Huge swathes of that culture are being unpicked, I just think it's much bigger than an RCC issue as the OP would suggest.
The unionists would never have accepted Home Rule. Their mistake was to include Fermanagh and Tyrone in their statelet.
The only thing that will finish NI is a nationalist majority.
Quote from: Rudi on June 02, 2018, 02:29:28 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on June 01, 2018, 11:34:27 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:55:39 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on June 01, 2018, 10:43:44 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 01, 2018, 10:31:13 PM
I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.
That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.
Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.
It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.
And you're more representative than therealdonald why and/or how?
In the land of Sufferus he is the Alpha, Omega, King, Queen even God. Their is no one like him not even Sid. He is the highest power.
Hi Rudi!
Any more unsubstantiated lies you want to add to this discussion like you did the referendum one? If so, I'll be happy to call you out on them and send you packing with your tail between your legs again.
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
WTF is wrong with these people?
Do they have a screw loose?
Sad to see US religious right-style yahooism now cropping up in Ireland.
Quote from: J70 on September 17, 2020, 09:05:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
WTF is wrong with these people?
Do they have a screw loose?
Sad to see US religious right-style yahooism now cropping up in Ireland.
It is. It was shocking to see the abuse hurled at Fr. Stephen Farragher a few weeks back in Ballyhaunis.
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Christ. Sad to see toxic American far-right ideology crossing the Atlantic. It still sounds stupid when I hear Irish people bleating about "liberals destroying our society," but god help us if those poisonous fact-averse ideas take hold in Ireland. Election results are heartening though. The Gemmaroids never seem to get much support when it comes to voting time and they usually lose their deposits.
I wonder what's their reaction when they discover Chrustianity was founded by brown skinned people from the middle East??!
And that Jesus lad wouldn't get much hearing from them hanging about with prostitutes, tax collectors and the like preaching about loving all sorts of people including foreigners and equality and forgiveness etc.
I wonder what the reaction would be if the nut job evangelists preaching through megaphones etc in town and city centres weren't Christian but some other religion. Surely if it's a good idea for Christian maniacs to roar at the citizenry it must be a good idea to let Islam and the Jedi to have a rattle?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2020, 04:27:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Christ. Sad to see toxic American far-right ideology crossing the Atlantic. It still sounds stupid when I hear Irish people bleating about "liberals destroying our society," but god help us if those poisonous fact-averse ideas take hold in Ireland. Election results are heartening though. The Gemmaroids never seem to get much support when it comes to voting time and they usually lose their deposits.
Toxic far right ideology in Ireland is Irish and wasn't imported here from the USA.
Gemma hasn't got the mass support because generally that particular conspiracy rhetoric she uses doesn't resonate with the passive ordinary Irish racist and perhaps Islamophobia is not such a thing just yet. Peter Casey was much more cute when it came to tapping into Ireland's racism, his poll went from 1% to 22% overnight.
Perhaps instead of Gemma, a right wing campaigner like Dana moaning about Travellers would have hit the richter scale of ultra right wing support.
Being prejudiced/racist against Travellers is acceptable in Ireland, it's so ingrained in the dna that it doesn't raise an eyebrow.
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2020, 04:27:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Christ. Sad to see toxic American far-right ideology crossing the Atlantic. It still sounds stupid when I hear Irish people bleating about "liberals destroying our society," but god help us if those poisonous fact-averse ideas take hold in Ireland. Election results are heartening though. The Gemmaroids never seem to get much support when it comes to voting time and they usually lose their deposits.
Toxic far right ideology in Ireland is Irish and wasn't imported here from the USA.
Gemma hasn't got the mass support because generally that particular conspiracy rhetoric she uses doesn't resonate with the passive ordinary Irish racist and perhaps Islamophobia is not such a thing just yet. Peter Casey was much more cute when it came to tapping into Ireland's racism, his poll went from 1% to 22% overnight.
Perhaps instead of Gemma, a right wing campaigner like Dana moaning about Travellers would have hit the richter scale of ultra right wing support.
Being prejudiced/racist against Travellers is acceptable in Ireland, it's so ingrained in the dna that it doesn't raise an eyebrow.
Do travellers as a whole have much will to better themselves and integrate with society as a whole?
I think a lot of the traveller rights group do their people too much of a disservice at times. There is definitely a racism element to travellers but surely they also need to take on board there is a sizable majority of their community who consistently let them down and without addressing that first of all its pointless
Quote from: Angelo on September 19, 2020, 04:07:18 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2020, 04:27:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Christ. Sad to see toxic American far-right ideology crossing the Atlantic. It still sounds stupid when I hear Irish people bleating about "liberals destroying our society," but god help us if those poisonous fact-averse ideas take hold in Ireland. Election results are heartening though. The Gemmaroids never seem to get much support when it comes to voting time and they usually lose their deposits.
Toxic far right ideology in Ireland is Irish and wasn't imported here from the USA.
Gemma hasn't got the mass support because generally that particular conspiracy rhetoric she uses doesn't resonate with the passive ordinary Irish racist and perhaps Islamophobia is not such a thing just yet. Peter Casey was much more cute when it came to tapping into Ireland's racism, his poll went from 1% to 22% overnight.
Perhaps instead of Gemma, a right wing campaigner like Dana moaning about Travellers would have hit the richter scale of ultra right wing support.
Being prejudiced/racist against Travellers is acceptable in Ireland, it's so ingrained in the dna that it doesn't raise an eyebrow.
Do travellers as a whole have much will to better themselves and integrate with society as a whole?
I think a lot of the traveller rights group do their people too much of a disservice at times. There is definitely a racism element to travellers but surely they also need to take on board there is a sizable majority of their community who consistently let them down and without addressing that first of all its pointless
Sizeable majority let them down?
Quote from: Angelo on September 19, 2020, 04:07:18 PM
Quote from: Main Street on September 19, 2020, 03:57:31 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 18, 2020, 04:27:35 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 17, 2020, 08:51:23 PM
Fine article by Fr. Liam Power in the Waterford News and Star here
His columns are worth a read in general
Good to see progressive and reasonable voices like him in the Catholic Church
QuoteFR LIAM POWER: THERE MUST BE LIMIT TO APPEASING ULTRA-CATHOLICS
https://waterford-news.ie/2020/09/15/fr-liam-power-there-must-be-limit-to-appeasing-ultra-catholics/#.X2O9PGhKg2w
Christ. Sad to see toxic American far-right ideology crossing the Atlantic. It still sounds stupid when I hear Irish people bleating about "liberals destroying our society," but god help us if those poisonous fact-averse ideas take hold in Ireland. Election results are heartening though. The Gemmaroids never seem to get much support when it comes to voting time and they usually lose their deposits.
Toxic far right ideology in Ireland is Irish and wasn't imported here from the USA.
Gemma hasn't got the mass support because generally that particular conspiracy rhetoric she uses doesn't resonate with the passive ordinary Irish racist and perhaps Islamophobia is not such a thing just yet. Peter Casey was much more cute when it came to tapping into Ireland's racism, his poll went from 1% to 22% overnight.
Perhaps instead of Gemma, a right wing campaigner like Dana moaning about Travellers would have hit the richter scale of ultra right wing support.
Being prejudiced/racist against Travellers is acceptable in Ireland, it's so ingrained in the dna that it doesn't raise an eyebrow.
Do travellers as a whole have much will to better themselves and integrate with society as a whole?
I think a lot of the traveller rights group do their people too much of a disservice at times. There is definitely a racism element to travellers but surely they also need to take on board there is a sizable majority of their community who consistently let them down and without addressing that first of all its pointless
Your not very well developed thoughts on Travellers and the issues that effect them just support my expressed opinion that there's a high level of ignorance and prejudice about and against Travellers in Ireland. Such attitudes are just mainstream in Ireland. Just how ignorant would such attitudes be interpreted had they been directed towards native Americans, native Aborigines, African Americans?
Bishop apologises over controversial remarks by priest at Listowel Mass
Priest refers to sex between two men and two women as a sin, among other comments
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/11/01/bishop-of-kerry-apologised-over-controversial-remarks-delivered-by-priest-at-listowel-sunday-mass/
I don't see the problem. The priest is spelling out the churches rules?
Two men and two women sounds like a orgy
Is stoning someone still a church rule or did they change that?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 01, 2022, 05:08:10 PM
Two men and two women sounds like a orgy
Is stoning someone still a church rule or did they change that?
Only one way to find out!
Quote from: Dag Dog on November 01, 2022, 05:20:35 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 01, 2022, 05:08:10 PM
Two men and two women sounds like a orgy
Is stoning someone still a church rule or did they change that?
Only one way to find out!
Why do they not keep all the rules? Cherrypicking them to suit, some crackers though
Source:Getty
– It is perfectly legal to beat your wife on the court house steps on Sundays.
– It is illegal to wear a fake moustache that causes laughter in church.
Quote from: Dag Dog on November 01, 2022, 04:52:55 PM
Bishop apologises over controversial remarks by priest at Listowel Mass
Priest refers to sex between two men and two women as a sin, among other comments
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/11/01/bishop-of-kerry-apologised-over-controversial-remarks-delivered-by-priest-at-listowel-sunday-mass/
I don't see the problem. The priest is spelling out the churches rules?
Well yeah , that is the church rules
Everyone knows these views, even if they're never uttered by a priest or bishop. So those who walked out , I'm sure they knew these views already , So why Are you at mass in the first place ? Or even a member of the catholic ch?
If you don't agree with an organisations rules time to join a different one.
I'd say th'oul Presbyterian or Free Presbyterian organisations would hold similar views ;D
What's the bishop apologizing for, sure he's just saying the naked truth of what the church believes. If you are stupid enough to pay any heed to it why would you be offended.
That priest has a bit of history
https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/priest-who-attacked-homosexuality-during-mass-previously-supported-convicted-sex-offender-42111954.html
At least he didn't behead any gays in Sligo.
Quote from: AustinPowers on November 01, 2022, 05:34:00 PM
Quote from: Dag Dog on November 01, 2022, 04:52:55 PM
Bishop apologises over controversial remarks by priest at Listowel Mass
Priest refers to sex between two men and two women as a sin, among other comments
https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/social-affairs/2022/11/01/bishop-of-kerry-apologised-over-controversial-remarks-delivered-by-priest-at-listowel-sunday-mass/
I don't see the problem. The priest is spelling out the churches rules?
Well yeah , that is the church rules
Everyone knows these views, even if they're never uttered by a priest or bishop. So those who walked out , I'm sure they knew these views already , So why Are you at mass in the first place ? Or even a member of the catholic ch?
Can't say I've ever understood why some gay people still stay in the church. Maybe it's because they grew up with it and feel like it's part of their identity and community.
Quote from: clarshack on November 02, 2022, 08:25:16 PM
At least he didn't behead any gays in Sligo.
This is making more news than the Sligo story, which is sad really.
Sligo cases are sub judice.
Seems this Priest spent a long time in U.S.
Explains a lot!
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 03, 2022, 10:09:51 AM
Quote from: clarshack on November 02, 2022, 08:25:16 PM
At least he didn't behead any gays in Sligo.
This is making more news than the Sligo story, which is sad really.
Is this in any way even close to being true?
The killings in Sligo were headline news in Ireland for a week or ten days and featured frequently on UK news as well.
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 03, 2022, 10:09:51 AM
Quote from: clarshack on November 02, 2022, 08:25:16 PM
At least he didn't behead any gays in Sligo.
This is making more news than the Sligo story, which is sad really.
I'm not sure why it's even news. Priest preaches churches teachings. Obviously most people think these teachings are ridiculous, but it's the Church/the priests own view which they are perfectly entitled to hold. Not sure what the big deal is.
Yeah I mean is this not widely known that these are the views. Some religions regard it as an "abomination". I think that is actually what Sammy Wilson said.
I wouldn't be appalled at the saying of it - it's the thinking of it which has always been there which is worse.