Scotland has introduced minimum price per unit of alcohol. Good or bad? Personally I think it is well intentioned but will lead to "booze buses" heading to English border towns.
The price of alcohol is not the problem. It's the easy availability of it. If you want to reduce alcohol-related illnesses/deaths, then ban off licenses and drink in supermarkets.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 01, 2018, 06:57:24 PM
The price of alcohol is not the problem. It's the easy availability of it. If you want to reduce alcohol-related illnesses/deaths, then ban off licenses and drink in supermarkets.
Price certainly is part of the problem, in Scotland one could buy 3 litres of cider for £2.99.....that will now cost over £11.00. Agree ready availability is big issue also, but prohibition didn't stop drinking either. The cost to the NHS has to be addressed, but no obvious answer. Charging at A&E may work but the vast majority of people drinking cheap cider are doing so because it's all they can afford.
Surely the cost to the NHS has to be balanced against the reduction in pension payments and late-stage nursing care costs that is accrued from heavy drinkers dying younger? Or is it taboo to discuss untimely deaths this way?
Personally I believe the Scottish government need a toe in the hole. We live in damp, miserable islands, and having feck all else to do is the single biggest contributing factor for our drinking culture. Governments intervening in nature's plan. No need.
Improved education about its effects, increasing prices, social stigma, reduced availability, and reduced public places in which you can smoke have all combined to reduce tobacco consumption to the point where I could see it going the way of snuff and becoming so rare as to not being a problem.
Drink is a bit different in that it's more revered in our culture. There's no smoking equivalent of the pub; apart from a very small number of cigar bars there's not really a space where people go specifically to smoke. Drinking's more sociable than smoking, so I'd say increased prices, better education and reduced availability would be the weapons of choice in reducing binge drinking. If there's going to be any social stigma it's going to have to be around drunkenness, but we're a long way off that.
Quote from: thewobbler on May 01, 2018, 07:32:34 PM
Surely the cost to the NHS has to be balanced against the reduction in pension payments and late-stage nursing care costs that is accrued from heavy drinkers dying younger? Or is it taboo to discuss untimely deaths this way?
Personally I believe the Scottish government need a toe in the hole. We live in damp, miserable islands, and having feck all else to do is the single biggest contributing factor for our drinking culture. Governments intervening in nature's plan. No need.
1 - Dying of alcohol abuse takes a long time. Look how long it took George Best to drink himself to death. That means a lot of resources spent on treatment over a period of years. And to answer your question, yes, it is taboo to talk about premature deaths this way. We should be trying to increase life expectancy and I thought this was self-evident.
2 - Alcohol related illness costs the NHS a fortune, I've seen figures ranging from £3 billion to £3.5 billion per year. The Americans have adopted a system of "let the sick stay sick and die if they can't afford treatment" in the belief that it's cheaper, but it turns out to be more expensive.
3 - Alcohol is a depressant. There's plenty to do besides drink. By law every local authority in the UK has to provide leisure facilities, so go to your local leisure centre and have a workout or learn a martial art. Go out for a run. Ride a bike. Take up swimming. Read a book. Take up painting. Get some artists gathered up and paint a nice mural on some boring wall that's been blank forever and overlooks some car park. Coach some underage sports team. Make yourself useful. The idea that "there's nothing to do but drink" is the attitude of the lazy and unimaginative.
Christ.
Honestly as someone who doesn't tend to drink myself into oblivion the early closing times of most pubs are a pain. I'd prefer to spend the night in a pub most nights out but if you want to drink outside of your home past midnight in most places you have to go to a niteclub. Other countries are much better in regards to opening hours. There is a nanny state element to all this, though mostly the intention is protect those who are incapable or unwillling to protect themselves. But those that don't need that protection have to take a hit too.
Raising the price of alcohol is an utterly pointless excercise and will do nothing to fix any perceived problems, but saying there's nothing to do besides drinking sounds like a sketch from a bad comedy show than something someone would say seriously.
I don't feel there is any stigma around drunkenness....it's nearly the opposite. Back in the day someone drunk in public would have been talked about, now if you drink socially you are probably more inclined to be talked about. Agree that weather can drive you to drink sometimes.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 07:44:54 PM
3 - Alcohol is a depressant. There's plenty to do besides drink. By law every local authority in the UK has to provide leisure facilities, so go to your local leisure centre and have a workout or learn a martial art. Go out for a run. Ride a bike. Take up swimming. Read a book. Take up painting. Get some artists gathered up and paint a nice mural on some boring wall that's been blank forever and overlooks some car park. Coach some underage sports team. Make yourself useful. The idea that "there's nothing to do but drink" is the attitude of the lazy and unimaginative.
Christ.
Yeah I agree. Another line I hear is "oh I don't know know how I'd unwind if I couldn't have a drink". If drink wasn't available, you'd find another way to cope. Walk, gym, paint, garden, etc. Use your brain and do something worthwhile.
The relationship in Ireland re:drink is unhealthy too. Recall older gneration talk about dance halls, few drank, those who did were outcasts. Once dances went to hotels with a bar, it became easily available, suddenly most people drank. Now you're an outcast if you don't drink. That probably happened within a generation.
There is very little social places to meet for non-drinkers either. Seen many a non-drinker being abused as the designated driver on nights out trying to round up a squad of paralytic yahoos. So it's probably a case of put up with being used and abused just to have a night out, start drinking themselves, or stay at home.
I think there should be some happy medium between the old days (when alcohol from an off license cost the same as going into a pub) and today (when you can get hammered for €5-€10)
Lots of places in the States only serve wine and beer..... that could be one option to help reduce intake
Maybe put the minimum pricing on hard liquor and those pre mixed vodka drinks but leave beer and wine alone
Ban the sale of hard liquor after midnight-I saw a fella in a late night bar order 3 double vodkas and Red Bull just as the bar was closing....complete madness
In the States soft drinks are essentially free....they'll charge you for the first one but that's usually it. There's no financial in incentive to haveing a couple of sparkling waters mixed in during the night in Ireland
I enjoy beer or a drop of whiskey like most but on rare occasions these days. Had a cousin died at 35 from alcoholism 6 years ago now and it upsets me still today.
There is a stigma about drink and alcoholics in ireland - leave them alone they're not harming anyone when they're harming themselves and all those around them. I still regret not intervening and at least trying to help. In my stupidity and awkwardness I would have bought him a beer or took a drink with him when I knew it was just more fuel to the fire.
I was t-total for 4 years from my final year of uni through the masters and another of couple of years after. I was in great shape and could manage nights out with the rest of the lads no bother. I did get tortured some nights driving ones home but all par for the course.
I think theres great intentions behind the new regulations in scotland - I would nearly say they're worse than ireland right now with alcoholism?
all very sad
Iceman, that reminds me of something I see often. People asked who they'd like to go for a drink with; George Best was a regular answer. He was an alcoholic! You'd hardly have been helping his cause buying him another flippin drink!
I have worked in bar game all my life, family owned bars in the past when it was 'a bottle and a half un '....my Granny would have said someone was 'tight' when they had a few too many. Worked in London where in Irish area (Cricklewood) lots of men drank 7 days a week, and hit it hard at weekend.
I hate the vodka/red bull culture.....have often refused to serve more than 2 to any one person.....and yes get the 10 vodka/red bull call at last orders.....just laugh at them and serve them 2 on a take it or leave it basis. In my home town you can get a drink at 8 in the morning, and then there is the 'Monday club'. I can remember when there was an unwritten rule in pubs where you couldn't serve any more than 2 green chatruse.......maybe we need something along those lines....but it would be near impossible to police. Education is the way forward but I don't think the government are serious about addressing this.
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Restricting advertising of alcohol esp around sporting events would be more effective I think
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Peer pressure is a terrible thing. My father didn't start drinking until he was 35 or 36. Then he went daft. If he had money he was always forcing people to take drink. He wouldn't take no for an answer. When my mother found out I was drinking she asked me specifically not to force other people to take drink. If someone says "no" when I ask them they don't get asked again.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Eamonn, I don't mean to be facetious but Ireland is polluted with coffee shops too. There's no difference there and the US government spend an inordinate amount of money on the problems caused by drinking too. As usual with America they're only ahead of everyone else in their own heads.
How late do coffee shops stay open in Ireland? Are they a place you can go to in the evening or are they a morning / daytime thing?
Pubs serving coffee/tea daytime, alcohol in evening. Two types of customer catered for. Would work well especially in rural areas. Could be the hub of the community for all people, young and old. And it would influence peoples behaviour towards alcohol ie. that there's an alternative.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 02, 2018, 02:04:44 AM
Pubs serving coffee/tea daytime, alcohol in evening. Two types of customer catered for. Would work well especially in rural areas. Could be the hub of the community for all people, young and old. And it would influence peoples behaviour towards alcohol ie. that there's an alternative.
Most Starbucks are open til 11 PM in the states and are as busy at night as they are in the morning.
Nobody bats an eyelid over here if you dont drink in a bar, or if you order a soda water.
There seems to be less stigma attached to being a reformed alcoholic over here......guys just say "those days long are behind me" and people respect their decision.
Quote from: thebuzz on May 01, 2018, 11:17:58 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Peer pressure is a terrible thing. My father didn't start drinking until he was 35 or 36. Then he went daft. If he had money he was always forcing people to take drink. He wouldn't take no for an answer. When my mother found out I was drinking she asked me specifically not to force other people to take drink. If someone says "no" when I ask them they don't get asked again.
I was late to the drinking game, in fact I was probably in my early thirties when I started to drink red wine. Marriage will do that to you ;D
I'd the peer pressure thing for a while, but never from my mates, usually when someone else was in our company they'd start the Mrs Doyle thing until they got the message. One questioned my manliness one night because I didn't drink, but he was put straight with a manly left hand to the kisser which put that argument to bed with him.
But by god there's only so much Coke and shite you can drink on a night out.
I don't have an issue even today going out and not drinking, it doesn't bother me whereas others I know couldn't.
I was developing my social skills when the rest were in such a state they couldn't bite their own fingers. I never got the enjoyment side of that type of drinking and still don't.
I've worked with Germans, French lads who like a drink, but they struggled with our attitude to it where we drink to oblivion and by and large become arseholes. It's more a relaxed social thing in a lot of other European countries.
Quote from: johnnycool on May 02, 2018, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on May 01, 2018, 11:17:58 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Peer pressure is a terrible thing. My father didn't start drinking until he was 35 or 36. Then he went daft. If he had money he was always forcing people to take drink. He wouldn't take no for an answer. When my mother found out I was drinking she asked me specifically not to force other people to take drink. If someone says "no" when I ask them they don't get asked again.
I was late to the drinking game, in fact I was probably in my early thirties when I started to drink red wine. Marriage will do that to you ;D
I'd the peer pressure thing for a while, but never from my mates, usually when someone else was in our company they'd start the Mrs Doyle thing until they got the message. One questioned my manliness one night because I didn't drink, but he was put straight with a manly left hand to the kisser which put that argument to bed with him.
But by god there's only so much Coke and shite you can drink on a night out.
I don't have an issue even today going out and not drinking, it doesn't bother me whereas others I know couldn't.
I was developing my social skills when the rest were in such a state they couldn't bite their own fingers. I never got the enjoyment side of that type of drinking and still don't.
I've worked with Germans, French lads who like a drink, but they struggled with our attitude to it where we drink to oblivion and by and large become arseholes. It's more a relaxed social thing in a lot of other European countries.
Probably best you don't drink then, God knows how violent you could get :)
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 02, 2018, 12:03:19 AM
How late do coffee shops stay open in Ireland? Are they a place you can go to in the evening or are they a morning / daytime thing?
Starbucks are now offering wine in the evenings in some stores - targeting a mixed bag of clients who want to drink but not in a pub setting and mix with friends who don't want to drink but don't want to feel like the odd man out in a pub with a soda water. I think it's a great idea.
Quote from: HiMucker on May 02, 2018, 12:23:35 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on May 02, 2018, 12:01:17 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on May 01, 2018, 11:17:58 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on May 01, 2018, 10:20:25 PM
One good thing about the states is the coffee culture. Caffeine might not be the healthiest thing to ingest but it's a lot easier to deal with than alcohol. Coffee shops here provide a good place to mingle without feeling pressured to buy an alcoholic drink.
Did I ever tell you about the time I was at a GAA meeting one time in Boston? I was having lunch at the bar in Canton and I got a glass of wine to go with it. The lads showed up and asked me what it was. I told them and before I knew it there was another one sitting there. I told them I didn't want it, one was enough for me, and everybody (including the barman) laughed like I was joking. When they saw I was serious and didn't touch the second glass they asked me what I drink besides wine. I told them G&T, but don't be buying me any. They tried to order one and I had to intervene and tell the barman not to pour it.
There's times when I've been at an Irish function and they'll ask me what I want to drink. If I've already had a drink I'll say "soda water." They say "Och I'm not asking for soda water! What do you want?!" I had to force the issue and demand they respect my wishes.
The peer pressure to drink can be fierce.
Peer pressure is a terrible thing. My father didn't start drinking until he was 35 or 36. Then he went daft. If he had money he was always forcing people to take drink. He wouldn't take no for an answer. When my mother found out I was drinking she asked me specifically not to force other people to take drink. If someone says "no" when I ask them they don't get asked again.
I was late to the drinking game, in fact I was probably in my early thirties when I started to drink red wine. Marriage will do that to you ;D
I'd the peer pressure thing for a while, but never from my mates, usually when someone else was in our company they'd start the Mrs Doyle thing until they got the message. One questioned my manliness one night because I didn't drink, but he was put straight with a manly left hand to the kisser which put that argument to bed with him.
But by god there's only so much Coke and shite you can drink on a night out.
I don't have an issue even today going out and not drinking, it doesn't bother me whereas others I know couldn't.
I was developing my social skills when the rest were in such a state they couldn't bite their own fingers. I never got the enjoyment side of that type of drinking and still don't.
I've worked with Germans, French lads who like a drink, but they struggled with our attitude to it where we drink to oblivion and by and large become arseholes. It's more a relaxed social thing in a lot of other European countries.
Probably best you don't drink then, God knows how violent you could get :)
I'm probably worse sober than with drink in me in that regard.
My tolerance level for fools and bullshitters is generally pretty low, but after a few reds I prefer to take the piss out of them in the verbals.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 01, 2018, 06:57:24 PM
The price of alcohol is not the problem. It's the easy availability of it. If you want to reduce alcohol-related illnesses/deaths, then ban off licenses and drink in supermarkets.
Disagree. It's purely down to the culture. Went to a place in the dead centre of Majorca 3 years ago and 300cl cans on Heino were 50 cent in the supermarket, 30c for San Miguel. Heavy stuff very cheap too. Yet didn't see a drunk Spaniard for the week.
Quote from: macdanger2 on May 01, 2018, 10:40:47 PM
Restricting advertising of alcohol esp around sporting events would be more effective I think
I'm not sure about this. I don't think is particularly nice having alcohol sponsorship at sporting events, but I don't think its a big influencer that
starts people drinking.
It makes people choose between different types, but not sure about it starting people off.
Thinking back to my teenage years (when there was also a proliferation of tobacco sponsors also) it certainly was nothing to do with me starting. But once I started, it probably did influence my choices.
Have largely stopped drinking (but not given up) as back training and working flat out on a new project. It's not condusive to being productive after a certain age :D
The missus has joined in too and neither of us miss it - bar a few family events and birthday I still go out and just don't drink. Have had plenty of nights out with friends and work events where none of the perceived peer pressure exists. There have been plenty of slagging because I used to be the first to start and last to finish on the beer; but ultimately everyone I've encountered has been very supportive or in reality couldn't give a fcuk.
I think a lot of this peer pressure is a myth and more a excuse for people's insecurities about not fitting in.
One thing I still don't do is drive even though I'm not drinking. I've better things to be doing that taxi'ing people home.