We all knew it was happening and i have to be honest its one list i would love to be on
The most staggering aspect is those fckers on Mrs Browns Boys get paid so much
There is actually a way that small companies can do this, the same as all the larger scale companies but the loopholes are being closed.
The government is bringing in universal credit and cutting DLA to claw back money but yet nothing will be done about this.
Assuming that these companies did everything legally people need to wind their necks in. There was some professor on the radio earlier moaning about lack of morals etc from these companies. What a crock of shit.
If the government thinks there are loopholes then pay the money to get proper advice and draft the legislation properly, don't expect private companies to decide where you meant to draw the line.
Quote from: TabClear on November 06, 2017, 10:30:01 PM
Assuming that these companies did everything legally people need to wind their necks in. There was some professor on the radio earlier moaning about lack of morals etc from these companies. What a crock of shit.
If the government thinks there are loopholes then pay the money to get proper advice and draft the legislation properly, don't expect private companies to decide where you meant to draw the line.
Couldn't agree more. It's not the job of companies to close tax loopholes, that's the job of legislators.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2017, 11:09:07 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 06, 2017, 10:30:01 PM
Assuming that these companies did everything legally people need to wind their necks in. There was some professor on the radio earlier moaning about lack of morals etc from these companies. What a crock of shit.
If the government thinks there are loopholes then pay the money to get proper advice and draft the legislation properly, don't expect private companies to decide where you meant to draw the line.
Could agree more. It's not the job of companies to close tax loopholes, that's the job of legislators.
The polarisation of politics means that's unlikely as we now get fuckwits coming out with sound bites elected to positions rather than people who can do the job... what would experts know anyway!!
Quote from: Hereiam on November 06, 2017, 10:14:53 PM
The government is bringing in universal credit and cutting DLA to claw back money but yet nothing will be done about this.
Tax avoidance breeds austerity. UK tax receipts are about 5% of GDP lower than spending
Amazed at the coverage being give to Mrs Brown's boys. Two million among three people over 16 months is not that cazy but they should have still paid their taxes! Not much chat about the Saxe Coburg's though, I do hope they are not just trying to deflect the news from them.
The headline on the BBC had been about the Queens avoidance, it was swiftly changed to probably the least inoffensive on the list.
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 06, 2017, 11:09:07 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 06, 2017, 10:30:01 PM
Assuming that these companies did everything legally people need to wind their necks in. There was some professor on the radio earlier moaning about lack of morals etc from these companies. What a crock of shit.
If the government thinks there are loopholes then pay the money to get proper advice and draft the legislation properly, don't expect private companies to decide where you meant to draw the line.
Couldn't agree more. It's not the job of companies to close tax loopholes, that's the job of legislators.
Yes... but in the case of the Isle of Man, the regulator was drafting the law based on the request of Appleby, who had requested it to specifically allow their clients to avoid tax. The regulator was even running the wording past Appleby before bringing the law before government. Companies should be held morally accountable as they do have influence on governments, and the whole system is entangled between governments and the rich. As the cliche says all to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Quote from: Sandino on November 07, 2017, 08:56:21 AM
Amazed at the coverage being give to Mrs Brown's boys. Two million among three people over 16 months is not that cazy but they should have still paid their taxes! Not much chat about the Saxe Coburg's though, I do hope they are not just trying to deflect the news from them.
Was thinking the same. I wonder did Brendan O'Carroll telling them to F*** off have any influence on this?
Don't necessarily agree with all this but some interesting points:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/07/tax-bono-harming-world-poorest-glastonbury-avoidance-paradise-papers
Tax rogues like Bono are harming the world's poorest people
In 2011 I organised a protest at U2's headline gig at Glastonbury. As Bono sang The Fly, a 9ft wide, 24ft high balloon was inflated at the front of the audience bearing the words U PAY TAX 2?. The protest was prompted by U2's decision in 2006 to move their tax affairs from Ireland to the Netherlands, after the Irish government decided to cap the tax-free exemption on royalties at €225,000 (before this, artists in Ireland were not obliged to pay any tax on royalties). The aim of the action was to highlight the impact of transnational tax dodging on the developing world. In a chilling report, Christian Aid estimated that $160bn is lost to the developing world each year as profits made in poorer countries are shifted to wealthier tax havens.
A few days before the protest, the co-founder of Bono's charity One, Jamie Drummond, telephoned me to try to persuade me to call off the action, citing worries that we might undermine Bono's campaigning efforts. We had a long conversation in which I eventually suggested that, regardless of what we do, Bono's tax affairs will inevitably cast a shadow over his campaigning. At this point Drummond became slightly aggressive, and insisted that it was our actions alone that were doing damage.
With the recent Paradise Papers revelations concerning Bono's finances, it looks like my prediction has come to pass. Bono chose to invest in a company based in ultra-low tax Malta, which incorporated a Lithuanian company – in order to buy a shopping centre – which has paid no tax in Lithuania despite having made profits. The company was later transferred to zero-tax (on company profits) Guernsey. To be fair to Bono, he is not creating artificial structures in order to avoid paying tax on his income (the kind of practice adopted by some of the stars of Mrs Brown's Boys). However, by making this investment, he supported ultra-low tax jurisdictions and elaborate structures for cheating tax. And it is these things which are so harmful, not only to ordinary people in developed countries but also to the developing world.
I am now a philosophy professor, using teaching and writing to campaign instead of massive balloons. And if anything, my research has shown how the harm caused to the developing world is now even more undeniable. Perhaps six years ago Bono could be forgiven for not accepting the message of our campaign. But in a dramatic turn around, even the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is now warning of the damage to the developing world caused by profit shifting. Bono has responded by expressing horror that a company he has invested in has broken rules. However, it is at best naive not to assume that elaborate company structures involving low-tax jurisdictions are set up for the purpose of shifting profits.
Of course this is partly about regulation. The international tax rules were designed for an era before globalisation and technological advances made global profit-shifting possible, and they are no longer fit for purpose. But while lax regulation makes tax cheating possible, when wealthy individuals like Bono "shop around" different countries for the best tax deal they fan the flames of tax competition, putting ever more pressure on countries around the world to cut their tax rates.
This leads to a race to the bottom in which around the world there is ever less money for schools, hospitals and the public good. Tax competition also undermines democratic self-determination. It ought to be the prerogative of legitimate governments to decide on the appropriate level of tax. By creating the downward pressure of tax competition, wealthy individuals limit the choices of sovereign states.
The rallying cry for Brexit was to "take back control". In fact, it is not the EU that is sapping our self-determination, but the wealthy individuals and transnational corporations that hold countries to ransom through the mechanism of tax competition. Bono and Drummond have good intentions. But what they can't see is that our current economic system is not working either for the developing world or for ordinary people in the developed world. If we want to help the developing world, we need to oppose that system – not encourage it.
• Philip Goff is associate professor in philosophy at Central European University in Budapest
Quote from: AQMP on November 07, 2017, 05:15:45 PM
Don't necessarily agree with all this but some interesting points:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/07/tax-bono-harming-world-poorest-glastonbury-avoidance-paradise-papers
Tax rogues like Bono are harming the world's poorest people
In 2011 I organised a protest at U2's headline gig at Glastonbury. As Bono sang The Fly, a 9ft wide, 24ft high balloon was inflated at the front of the audience bearing the words U PAY TAX 2?. The protest was prompted by U2's decision in 2006 to move their tax affairs from Ireland to the Netherlands, after the Irish government decided to cap the tax-free exemption on royalties at €225,000 (before this, artists in Ireland were not obliged to pay any tax on royalties). The aim of the action was to highlight the impact of transnational tax dodging on the developing world. In a chilling report, Christian Aid estimated that $160bn is lost to the developing world each year as profits made in poorer countries are shifted to wealthier tax havens.
A few days before the protest, the co-founder of Bono's charity One, Jamie Drummond, telephoned me to try to persuade me to call off the action, citing worries that we might undermine Bono's campaigning efforts. We had a long conversation in which I eventually suggested that, regardless of what we do, Bono's tax affairs will inevitably cast a shadow over his campaigning. At this point Drummond became slightly aggressive, and insisted that it was our actions alone that were doing damage.
With the recent Paradise Papers revelations concerning Bono's finances, it looks like my prediction has come to pass. Bono chose to invest in a company based in ultra-low tax Malta, which incorporated a Lithuanian company – in order to buy a shopping centre – which has paid no tax in Lithuania despite having made profits. The company was later transferred to zero-tax (on company profits) Guernsey. To be fair to Bono, he is not creating artificial structures in order to avoid paying tax on his income (the kind of practice adopted by some of the stars of Mrs Brown's Boys). However, by making this investment, he supported ultra-low tax jurisdictions and elaborate structures for cheating tax. And it is these things which are so harmful, not only to ordinary people in developed countries but also to the developing world.
I am now a philosophy professor, using teaching and writing to campaign instead of massive balloons. And if anything, my research has shown how the harm caused to the developing world is now even more undeniable. Perhaps six years ago Bono could be forgiven for not accepting the message of our campaign. But in a dramatic turn around, even the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is now warning of the damage to the developing world caused by profit shifting. Bono has responded by expressing horror that a company he has invested in has broken rules. However, it is at best naive not to assume that elaborate company structures involving low-tax jurisdictions are set up for the purpose of shifting profits.
Of course this is partly about regulation. The international tax rules were designed for an era before globalisation and technological advances made global profit-shifting possible, and they are no longer fit for purpose. But while lax regulation makes tax cheating possible, when wealthy individuals like Bono "shop around" different countries for the best tax deal they fan the flames of tax competition, putting ever more pressure on countries around the world to cut their tax rates.
This leads to a race to the bottom in which around the world there is ever less money for schools, hospitals and the public good. Tax competition also undermines democratic self-determination. It ought to be the prerogative of legitimate governments to decide on the appropriate level of tax. By creating the downward pressure of tax competition, wealthy individuals limit the choices of sovereign states.
The rallying cry for Brexit was to "take back control". In fact, it is not the EU that is sapping our self-determination, but the wealthy individuals and transnational corporations that hold countries to ransom through the mechanism of tax competition. Bono and Drummond have good intentions. But what they can't see is that our current economic system is not working either for the developing world or for ordinary people in the developed world. If we want to help the developing world, we need to oppose that system – not encourage it.
• Philip Goff is associate professor in philosophy at Central European University in Budapest
He does make some valid points about the "race to the bottom" and tax laws not keeping up with technology. But my view is that this is a governance issue and its the legislators who should be held to account for it, not the individuals. Pay the money to employ some proper, shit hot tax advisers to draft the legislation (not some career civil servant) or engage a Big 4 firm on a proper, incentivised contract (% of tax saved??) to close the loopholes. You can bet that if KPMG/PWC/Deloitte were getting a £ for every £100 saved through closing some of these schemes they would have things locked down pretty tight.
There is an attempt through the OECD/ G20 Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (BEPS) legislation to eliminate tax planning strategies that exploit gaps and mismatches in tax rules to artificially shift profits to low or no-tax locations where there is little or no economic activity. Although some of the schemes used are illegal, most are not. I think about 100 jurisdictions have signed up but the issue in this is the "unilateral" element, i.e. act 1st and you get stung. The Irish experience is pretty fresh in terms of the investment that can attracted through a low tax regime and other countries dont want to move first in case it jeopardized the multinationals setting up in their parish. Ironically the USA were probably the one country that could tax the corporates a sensible amount because people wanted to trade there so badly. However, with the current moron at the helm over there he is seeking to redress this and in his usual overreacting manner giving a big f**k You to everyone else.
Quote from: TabClear on November 07, 2017, 05:45:52 PM
Quote from: AQMP on November 07, 2017, 05:15:45 PM
Don't necessarily agree with all this but some interesting points:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/07/tax-bono-harming-world-poorest-glastonbury-avoidance-paradise-papers
Tax rogues like Bono are harming the world's poorest people
In 2011 I organised a protest at U2's headline gig at Glastonbury. As Bono sang The Fly, a 9ft wide, 24ft high balloon was inflated at the front of the audience bearing the words U PAY TAX 2?. The protest was prompted by U2's decision in 2006 to move their tax affairs from Ireland to the Netherlands, after the Irish government decided to cap the tax-free exemption on royalties at €225,000 (before this, artists in Ireland were not obliged to pay any tax on royalties). The aim of the action was to highlight the impact of transnational tax dodging on the developing world. In a chilling report, Christian Aid estimated that $160bn is lost to the developing world each year as profits made in poorer countries are shifted to wealthier tax havens.
A few days before the protest, the co-founder of Bono's charity One, Jamie Drummond, telephoned me to try to persuade me to call off the action, citing worries that we might undermine Bono's campaigning efforts. We had a long conversation in which I eventually suggested that, regardless of what we do, Bono's tax affairs will inevitably cast a shadow over his campaigning. At this point Drummond became slightly aggressive, and insisted that it was our actions alone that were doing damage.
With the recent Paradise Papers revelations concerning Bono's finances, it looks like my prediction has come to pass. Bono chose to invest in a company based in ultra-low tax Malta, which incorporated a Lithuanian company – in order to buy a shopping centre – which has paid no tax in Lithuania despite having made profits. The company was later transferred to zero-tax (on company profits) Guernsey. To be fair to Bono, he is not creating artificial structures in order to avoid paying tax on his income (the kind of practice adopted by some of the stars of Mrs Brown's Boys). However, by making this investment, he supported ultra-low tax jurisdictions and elaborate structures for cheating tax. And it is these things which are so harmful, not only to ordinary people in developed countries but also to the developing world.
I am now a philosophy professor, using teaching and writing to campaign instead of massive balloons. And if anything, my research has shown how the harm caused to the developing world is now even more undeniable. Perhaps six years ago Bono could be forgiven for not accepting the message of our campaign. But in a dramatic turn around, even the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development is now warning of the damage to the developing world caused by profit shifting. Bono has responded by expressing horror that a company he has invested in has broken rules. However, it is at best naive not to assume that elaborate company structures involving low-tax jurisdictions are set up for the purpose of shifting profits.
Of course this is partly about regulation. The international tax rules were designed for an era before globalisation and technological advances made global profit-shifting possible, and they are no longer fit for purpose. But while lax regulation makes tax cheating possible, when wealthy individuals like Bono "shop around" different countries for the best tax deal they fan the flames of tax competition, putting ever more pressure on countries around the world to cut their tax rates.
This leads to a race to the bottom in which around the world there is ever less money for schools, hospitals and the public good. Tax competition also undermines democratic self-determination. It ought to be the prerogative of legitimate governments to decide on the appropriate level of tax. By creating the downward pressure of tax competition, wealthy individuals limit the choices of sovereign states.
The rallying cry for Brexit was to "take back control". In fact, it is not the EU that is sapping our self-determination, but the wealthy individuals and transnational corporations that hold countries to ransom through the mechanism of tax competition. Bono and Drummond have good intentions. But what they can't see is that our current economic system is not working either for the developing world or for ordinary people in the developed world. If we want to help the developing world, we need to oppose that system – not encourage it.
• Philip Goff is associate professor in philosophy at Central European University in Budapest
He does make some valid points about the "race to the bottom" and tax laws not keeping up with technology. But my view is that this is a governance issue and its the legislators who should be held to account for it, not the individuals. Pay the money to employ some proper, shit hot tax advisers to draft the legislation (not some career civil servant) or engage a Big 4 firm on a proper, incentivised contract (% of tax saved??) to close the loopholes. You can bet that if KPMG/PWC/Deloitte were getting a £ for every £100 saved through closing some of these schemes they would have things locked down pretty tight.
There is an attempt through the OECD/ G20 Base Erosion and Profit Shifting (BEPS) legislation to eliminate tax planning strategies that exploit gaps and mismatches in tax rules to artificially shift profits to low or no-tax locations where there is little or no economic activity. Although some of the schemes used are illegal, most are not. I think about 100 jurisdictions have signed up but the issue in this is the "unilateral" element, i.e. act 1st and you get stung. The Irish experience is pretty fresh in terms of the investment that can attracted through a low tax regime and other countries dont want to move first in case it jeopardized the multinationals setting up in their parish. Ironically the USA were probably the one country that could tax the corporates a sensible amount because people wanted to trade there so badly. However, with the current moron at the helm over there he is seeking to redress this and in his usual overreacting manner giving a big f**k You to everyone else.
Yeah right, always blame the legislators and not the people who know what the law is about and the spirit of the laws and just choose to completely disregard what is right. It's exactly the same principle with those people who use loopholes in the rules of gaelic games to get players off when they are completely guilty and deserve punishment. These papers show that there are always people who will try to get round the laws no matter how tightly they are written and society should be ostracising these people.
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Typical middle-class generalisation there.
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Most people on benefits aren't wasters. They're people with f**k all opportunity. They have the choice of working some sh!t job for a pittance or getting a pittance for doing nothing. Sometimes they could end up with less if they work, especially if it means loss of rent allowance. If they had a chance to earn a decent standard of living they'd jump at it. I have more sympathy for the working poor than the unemployed poor but either way, the system is cruel.
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:46:37 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.
These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.
The tories will continue to take from the poor. What would they have done with the money anyway. They are stripping the nhs for their own personal gains and even selling of buildings and making money of them ( from what i can gauge this would actually be private money). Even if they had more money they still wouldn't put it into these services.
While these people shouldn't get away with this i very much doubt the tories are overly bothered. These are the kind of people who are their donors.
I also see rumours that may is ,or was, worried that her husband may have been caught in it.
you shouldn't be able to avoid paying your fair share of taxes, just because you are super rich and can afford the best legal and accounting advice and can move your wealth between different jurisdictions
Quote from: lenny on November 07, 2017, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:46:37 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.
These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.
Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do. If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.
Quote from: Therealdonald on November 07, 2017, 07:42:52 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Typical middle-class generalisation there.
Or maybe the opinion of someone who hits the road around 6.30 every morning while the local scum on benefits are sleeping off their Dutch Gold.
Of course the Shinners defend the dole merchants rather than the tax payer
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
if someone can avoid it fair play to them, we still get taxed the same regardless
if the govt would go after google, starbucks, amazon, microsoft and all the multi nationals and not just small individual person (although rich ones) maybe
the common person wouldn't feel so hard done by.
Irish govt as big an offender as anybody, to the point then didn't want the multi billion dollar tax fine issued from the EC, its not as if we couldn't do with the money
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
Quote from: TabClear on November 07, 2017, 08:39:38 PM
Quote from: lenny on November 07, 2017, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:46:37 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.
These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.
Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do. If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.
Ah sure you're probably right. We'll all take that attitude and f**k the health service and education. The spirit of the law is why we don't you p***k. I'm glad to pay taxes and contribute to society and the majority of people I'm pretty sure feel the same.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
Quote from: lenny on November 07, 2017, 09:17:49 PM
Quote from: TabClear on November 07, 2017, 08:39:38 PM
Quote from: lenny on November 07, 2017, 08:12:06 PM
Quote from: stew on November 07, 2017, 07:46:37 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
It seems to me that no laws are neing broken here, Bono is guilty of being a complete hypocrote but a corporate thief he is not, nor are the vast majority of the rest of them it seems, I dont agree with it but at this time many of these people have not broken the law.
These people may not have broken the letter of the law but they've certainly torn aprt the spirit of tax laws. They're also completely guilty of hiding away millions which they'll never spend and which will sit hidden in accounts offshore and which would have gone a long way to providing us with improved social services, education and health care. The tories aren't interested in tightening regulations here either as they love to suck up to the super wealthy and most likely a large percentage of them are already taking advantage of these loopholes themselves.
Are you for real? The "spirit" of tax law? It's not somebody coughing on the downswing in golf ffs. It shouldn't be subjective and It shouldn't be up to companies to interpret what the law was "supposed" to do. If the tax authorities or governments wanted to they could make legislation much more unambiguous, for whatever reason they don't.
Ah sure you're probably right. We'll all take that attitude and f**k the health service and education. The spirit of the law is why we don't you p***k. I'm glad to pay taxes and contribute to society and the majority of people I'm pretty sure feel the same.
I don't even know where to start with that. People pay taxes because it
is the law. No spirit involved. These companies as far as I can see have mainly operated within the law. If the taxes raised aren't enough to cover the public services a government needs they raise more taxes by increasing rates or closing loopholes. I.e something the people drafting the legislation can control. You certainly don't depend on the goodwill of every company to interpret legislation you drafted.
James O'Brien does some great work. . . This is particularly good about the big time Tax avoiders and Brexit!!
https://youtu.be/7gVc8qfuNrk
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
It also has to be said a lot of the super rich pay more to HMRC than the ordinary PAYE worker. I remember an article from a few years ago where the top 3000 earners pay more in tax than the bottom 9 million out of 30 odd milliom who pay tax in UK.
So if you were one of those super rich individuals and you seen a way to do something legal to avoid paying as much you might be tempted..there is still a good chance they are paying more in Tac overall than the average worker. I have more of an issue with the likes of Apple and the big companies although again the counter argument could be that Apple pay more tax than any company in the world.
I'm sure we have all had tradesmen or mechanics or people do work cash in hand as it will work out cheaper for us...at the end of the day this is the very same principle and is arguably worse as its Tax evasion rather than avoidance and is actually illegal.
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
This is the crux of the issue and it should not be like that. I understand that governments (and the Irish government is more culpable than most) see a "light touch" tax regime as a major factor in attracting investment that generates jobs but it cant be at the expense of fair regulation. There are too many loopholes that the legislators know about that they do nothing to close.
As an example in the Paradise papers, apparently the Isle of Man has hundreds of private planes registered there. Lewis Hamilton stopped off for 2 hours in his private jet, got an Isle of Man official to stamp his import documentation (all perfectly legal in theory) and claimed a multi million VAT refund. I have read how the structure he used works and its so complex that a) it should be open to challenge and b) even if it is deemed to be legal, the loophole (if thats what its deemed to be) could be closed relatively easily. Hamilton and his advisors have declared everything properly so its up to the Revenue to take a case against them under a) to get a decision that removes any ambiguity around this and recover the lost tax. Given almost €1bn has been refunded to various plane owners under similar schemes in the last decade, surely that is worth the effort if they believe the legislation is not working as
they intended.
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on November 08, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
It also has to be said a lot of the super rich pay more to HMRC than the ordinary PAYE worker. I remember an article from a few years ago where the top 3000 earners pay more in tax than the bottom 9 million out of 30 odd milliom who pay tax in UK.
So if you were one of those super rich individuals and you seen a way to do something legal to avoid paying as much you might be tempted..there is still a good chance they are paying more in Tac overall than the average worker. I have more of an issue with the likes of Apple and the big companies although again the counter argument could be that Apple pay more tax than any company in the world.
I'm sure we have all had tradesmen or mechanics or people do work cash in hand as it will work out cheaper for us...at the end of the day this is the very same principle and is arguably worse as its Tax evasion rather than avoidance and is actually illegal.
that's cause they earn ridiculous amounts of money in the first place
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on November 08, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
It also has to be said a lot of the super rich pay more to HMRC than the ordinary PAYE worker. I remember an article from a few years ago where the top 3000 earners pay more in tax than the bottom 9 million out of 30 odd milliom who pay tax in UK.
So if you were one of those super rich individuals and you seen a way to do something legal to avoid paying as much you might be tempted..there is still a good chance they are paying more in Tac overall than the average worker. I have more of an issue with the likes of Apple and the big companies although again the counter argument could be that Apple pay more tax than any company in the world.
I'm sure we have all had tradesmen or mechanics or people do work cash in hand as it will work out cheaper for us...at the end of the day this is the very same principle and is arguably worse as its Tax evasion rather than avoidance and is actually illegal.
Is that not the definition of a progressive tax system such as the one that operates in the UK?
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on November 07, 2017, 07:42:52 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Typical middle-class generalisation there.
Or maybe the opinion of someone who hits the road around 6.30 every morning while the local scum on benefits are sleeping off their Dutch Gold.
Of course the Shinners defend the dole merchants rather than the tax payer
I don't have the source but I read somewhere that most benefits (in the UK) are paid to people who are in work, but are on low wages.
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 08:58:56 PM
Quote from: Therealdonald on November 07, 2017, 07:42:52 PM
Quote from: Avondhu star on November 07, 2017, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:34:56 AM
Next time you hear some idiot giving out about benefits remind them that if tax avoidance were ended we could pay those benefits multiple times over and still have plenty of extra money.
That's the answer. Give the wasters on benefits even more
Typical middle-class generalisation there.
Or maybe the opinion of someone who hits the road around 6.30 every morning while the local scum on benefits are sleeping off their Dutch Gold.
Of course the Shinners defend the dole merchants rather than the tax payer
There's a lot of truth in that Avondhu and they get council houses while a lot of workers don't have a stable roof over their head and have to pay exorbitant rents. It's a ridiculously unfair system that doesn't reward those who work over those that don't, but that doesn't make those who don't work wasters or scum. It probably just makes them cute, given the system. Imo those who are working on low wages should be given preference for social housing which they should be given for a fixed number of years to allow them to save for their own home . People shouldn't be allowed to buy their council houses or keep them when their financial situation improves as happens now.
In any case it would surely be a lot cheaper in the long run for the government to build new houses for those on the waiting list than paying out a never ending fortune for rent allowance.
The rich and powerful who make the rules are scum imo. I wouldn't blame those who figure with good reason that working isn't worth it.
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on November 08, 2017, 12:00:00 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on November 07, 2017, 09:20:15 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on November 07, 2017, 09:11:20 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on November 07, 2017, 09:02:05 PM
Govt try to bleed you dry with taxes, road tax, house purchase tax, income tax, inheritance tax, f**kers have a tax for everything
That's how they pay for roads, schools, hospitals and whatnot. How should they do it?
I think the point is that the ordinary PAYE worker cannot avoid tax but the powerful and rich people/companies seem to be able to. I'd say most people have no issue paying their share but like a lot of things in life there's no balance to the debate. Avondhu Stars reply to my post above underlines that, a simply ridiculous comment.
It also has to be said a lot of the super rich pay more to HMRC than the ordinary PAYE worker. I remember an article from a few years ago where the top 3000 earners pay more in tax than the bottom 9 million out of 30 odd milliom who pay tax in UK.
So if you were one of those super rich individuals and you seen a way to do something legal to avoid paying as much you might be tempted..there is still a good chance they are paying more in Tac overall than the average worker. I have more of an issue with the likes of Apple and the big companies although again the counter argument could be that Apple pay more tax than any company in the world.
I'm sure we have all had tradesmen or mechanics or people do work cash in hand as it will work out cheaper for us...at the end of the day this is the very same principle and is arguably worse as its Tax evasion rather than avoidance and is actually illegal.
Ordinary schmucks in the UK have seen wages fall by 15% after inflation since 2007.
You can see the effect of capital vs labour over 30 years here :
https://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/tucfiles/TheGreatWagesGrab.pdf
The rich have been creaming it.
The Government can't get the deficit to zero because workers are not getting payrises and the rich are evading taxes. This is all part of a system.
Seriously, who gives a fcuk?
Remember reading the book of a well known singer. His accountant rings him and says, better buy some property or the taxman will get £3/4 million of your earnings. So he goes and buys his 4th or 5th big house. Does that make him a tax dodger? Does it f**k. Good luck to him.
It's every man for himself.
I am indebted to my Solicitor who worked tirelessly and extremely creatively a while ago to ensure I was exempt from inheritance tax,though he did warn me I could incur a fairly hefty bill should I decide to sell some of my assets.
Quote from: T Fearon on November 09, 2017, 01:11:02 AM
I am indebted to my Solicitor who worked tirelessly and extremely creatively a while ago to ensure I was exempt from inheritance tax,though he did warn me I could incur a fairly hefty bill should I decide to sell some of my assets.
You'll be able to swing the 2.50 due from a house sale in Portadown.
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLhy5HJxGhxEjApoJp21dN4f-Th5hsEn-pCYK6FuwT2mFZ8anl)
The point about the Rich Evading/Avoiding taxes is the effect it has on the quality of life of everyone else. Many years ago, whilst training in the Inland Revenue, we were told that if people all paid their dues their would be one tax rate of 11%. Look at the graphic above comparing IR's estimate with that of TJN and imagine paying less than 5% tax on your earnings Legally.
Now imagine all this money circulating in the economy rather than gathering dust in offshore bank accounts. But yeah those idle poor scroungers eh!
Well, that was absolute bollocks they told you.
before people get on their high horses
Ask do you know anyone (including yourself) that didnt minimize their tax liability
As for companies they cant have a conscience as they are not sentient beings ,companies solely exist to make money for their owners ,
Morals are displayed purely for commercial purposes
Is it Tax Evasion or Tax Avoidance that is a crime?
Quote from: BennyCake on November 09, 2017, 12:40:31 AM
Seriously, who gives a fcuk?
Remember reading the book of a well known singer. His accountant rings him and says, better buy some property or the taxman will get £3/4 million of your earnings. So he goes and buys his 4th or 5th big house. Does that make him a tax dodger? Does it f**k. Good luck to him.
It's every man for himself.
Every so often it goes too far
https://youtu.be/9dY4WlxO6i0
And we get a new system.
A new one will be along in the next few years.
slightly off topic but headline today saying Gates, Buffett and Bezos joint wealth is greater than the bottom half of the US population;
scary if even remotely true
how much money to these corporations pour in to Ireland (aside from taxes)? HAving them in Ireland generates jobs, pours money into the local area and stimulates the economy - there is a trade off.
As was said the many loop holes offered by transfer pricing between companies that lets parent companies away with billions every year is a trade of.
Individual contractors had a field day years ago with the same kind of schemes designed to maximize their take home income. The Mrs Brown boys did something similar but theres I would say is tax evasion? The likes of Antony Hamilton followed the rules and declared his earnings and took advantage of jurisdictional rules. The BRowns hid money offshore and didn't declare the total amount and were taxed on less than they had - which is evasion.
Quote from: haranguerer on November 09, 2017, 11:56:59 AM
Well, that was absolute bollocks they told you.
The sums were simple enough with the actual tax take compared to their estimate of tax evaded /avoided/not collected. Having then jumped the fence and worked in the tax avoidance industry for many years I'd agree that it was bollox. Well less than 5% I'd say.
The difference between Avoidance and Evasion is what's provable and how good your Lawyer is.
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 09, 2017, 12:06:55 PM
Is it Tax Evasion or Tax Avoidance that is a crime?
Tax Evasion is illegal. Tax Avoidance is legal but many would argue it is morally/ethically wrong.
Quote from: The Iceman on November 09, 2017, 12:21:58 PM
how much money to these corporations pour in to Ireland (aside from taxes)? HAving them in Ireland generates jobs, pours money into the local area and stimulates the economy - there is a trade off.
As was said the many loop holes offered by transfer pricing between companies that lets parent companies away with billions every year is a trade of.
Individual contractors had a field day years ago with the same kind of schemes designed to maximize their take home income. The Mrs Brown boys did something similar but theres I would say is tax evasion? The likes of Antony Hamilton followed the rules and declared his earnings and took advantage of jurisdictional rules. The BRowns hid money offshore and didn't declare the total amount and were taxed on less than they had - which is evasion.
That isnt what the Mrs Browns boy did - they sent money offshore to a company without paying tax and then get a loan via a 3rd party of the money back to them and they dont pay any tax on that loan when it comes back in but in reality, they never re-pay the loan. That is not classed as Tax evasion - it is a legal loophole that enables them to Avoid paying Tax.
Quote from: passedit on November 09, 2017, 01:25:35 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on November 09, 2017, 11:56:59 AM
Well, that was absolute bollocks they told you.
The sums were simple enough with the actual tax take compared to their estimate of tax evaded /avoided/not collected. Having then jumped the fence and worked in the tax avoidance industry for many years I'd agree that it was bollox. Well less than 5% I'd say.
The difference between Avoidance and Evasion is what's provable and how good your Lawyer is.
I've no doubt the sums are simple enough, the part that's bollocks is that they'd cut the rate if they were just able to collect all that was due.
Re avoidance/evasion, HMRC have started to use the terms interchangeably.
And agreed, I hate all this holier than thou shite - its not as though the rest of us are voluntarily paying what we owe, if we'd a way out of it we'd take it too
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on November 09, 2017, 01:31:33 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on November 09, 2017, 12:06:55 PM
Is it Tax Evasion or Tax Avoidance that is a crime?
Tax Evasion is illegal. Tax Avoidance is legal but many would argue it is morally/ethically wrong.
I've seen BBC trot this argument out a few times. I'd say for an organisation that seems to be morally bankrupt based on the abuse, sexism, gender pay inequality scandals etc... breaking over the last few years should avoid throwing stones in morallity glass house.
Quote from: Frank_The_Tank on November 09, 2017, 01:34:48 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on November 09, 2017, 12:21:58 PM
how much money to these corporations pour in to Ireland (aside from taxes)? HAving them in Ireland generates jobs, pours money into the local area and stimulates the economy - there is a trade off.
As was said the many loop holes offered by transfer pricing between companies that lets parent companies away with billions every year is a trade of.
Individual contractors had a field day years ago with the same kind of schemes designed to maximize their take home income. The Mrs Brown boys did something similar but theres I would say is tax evasion? The likes of Antony Hamilton followed the rules and declared his earnings and took advantage of jurisdictional rules. The BRowns hid money offshore and didn't declare the total amount and were taxed on less than they had - which is evasion.
That isnt what the Mrs Browns boy did - they sent money offshore to a company without paying tax and then get a loan via a 3rd party of the money back to them and they dont pay any tax on that loan when it comes back in but in reality, they never re-pay the loan. That is not classed as Tax evasion - it is a legal loophole that enables them to Avoid paying Tax.
the money that is sent has to be declared as earnings somewhere frank?
but they are choosing to send it offshore where they more than likely only declare a % of the earnings and it is at the discretion of the individual. Moving money around is one thing. Not declaring true amounts of money is evasion. I worked in the industry for 8 years I know how it works at the individual level and corporate level