After watching Tyrone play most of yesterday basically without a forward line, my mind was cast back to the early to mid 2000s where I have the biased opinion that Tyrone had possibly the best forward unit I've seen in my lifetime. Some teams have 3 or 4 good forwards and carry a few lesser lights but anyone one of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan (or McGinley), O'Neill, Canavan and Mulligan would have been an absolute stand out player on yesterday's team. So my question is what is the best group of 6 forwards you have seen play together? I.e. Each player must be a stand out player in their own right.
Notable others (off the top of my head - there may be one or two mistakes)
Meath circa 1988: Beggy, Cassalls, Gillic, O'Rourke, Stafford, Flynn
Down early 1990s: Carr, Blaney, Mason, Linden, Withnall, McCarten
Kerry early 1980s: Ger Power (I think), Ogie Moran, Spillane, Sheehy, Bomber, Egan
Armagh early 2000s: McKeever, McEntee, McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden
Edit: You could probably pick 6 out of about 10 of the current Dublin selection of forwards.
Obviously the Kerry one stands out but the Meath unit of the , late 80s was an exceptional unit (, especially the full forward line )
Obviously the Wexford 4 in a row lads.
Galvin-Dec Sullivan-O'Cinneide
Gooch-Donaghy-Crowley
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
After watching Tyrone play most of yesterday basically without a forward line, my mind was cast back to the early to mid 2000s where I have the biased opinion that Tyrone had possibly the best forward unit I've seen in my lifetime. Some teams have 3 or 4 good forwards and carry a few lesser lights but anyone one of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan (or McGinley), O'Neill, Canavan and Mulligan would have been an absolute stand out player on yesterday's team. So my question is what is the best group of 6 forwards you have seen play together? I.e. Each player must be a stand out player in their own right.
Notable others (off the top of my head - there may be one or two mistakes)
Meath circa 1988: Beggy, Cassalls, Gillic, O'Rourke, Stafford, Flynn
Down early 1990s: Carr, Blaney, Mason, Linden, Withnall, McCarten
Kerry early 1980s: Ger Power (I think), Ogie Moran, Spillane, Sheehy, Bomber, Egan
Armagh early 2000s: McKeever, McEntee, McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden
Edit: You could probably pick 6 out of about 10 of the current Dublin selection of forwards.
Stephen o' Neill is the best player i ever saw live. Simply awesome. The points he kicked against us were ridiculous. Injuries dampened the flame but when on song i never saw anyone better. Our own Stevie Mc Donnell came close.
Quote from: maddog on August 29, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
After watching Tyrone play most of yesterday basically without a forward line, my mind was cast back to the early to mid 2000s where I have the biased opinion that Tyrone had possibly the best forward unit I've seen in my lifetime. Some teams have 3 or 4 good forwards and carry a few lesser lights but anyone one of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan (or McGinley), O'Neill, Canavan and Mulligan would have been an absolute stand out player on yesterday's team. So my question is what is the best group of 6 forwards you have seen play together? I.e. Each player must be a stand out player in their own right.
Notable others (off the top of my head - there may be one or two mistakes)
Meath circa 1988: Beggy, Cassalls, Gillic, O'Rourke, Stafford, Flynn
Down early 1990s: Carr, Blaney, Mason, Linden, Withnall, McCarten
Kerry early 1980s: Ger Power (I think), Ogie Moran, Spillane, Sheehy, Bomber, Egan
Armagh early 2000s: McKeever, McEntee, McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden
Edit: You could probably pick 6 out of about 10 of the current Dublin selection of forwards.
Stephen o' Neill is the best player i ever saw live. Simply awesome. The points he kicked against us were ridiculous. Injuries dampened the flame but when on song i never saw anyone better. Our own Stevie Mc Donnell came close.
Also true for Ronan Clarke.
Galway had a very good forward line in the early noughties too. Joyce, Fallon, Donnellan being standouts, but they could all play.
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 29, 2017, 09:25:06 AM
Galway had a very good forward line in the early noughties too. Joyce, Fallon, Donnellan being standouts, but they could all play.
Honestly, not even worthy a mention. The likes of Niall Finnegan, Shay Walsh, Paul Clancy, John Donnellan barely register a blip on the memories.
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The most complete, versatile and well balanced unit I ever saw before the past few years was Kerry in 2009:
Kennelly, O'Sullivan, Galvin
Walsh, Donaghy, Cooper
Tyrone's best 6 of Dooher, McGuigan, McGinley, Canavan, O'Neill, Mulligan would have been at least a match, but that 6 never seeemed to take the field together.
----
But I genuinely doubt any forward line in history would present as many problems individually or work as hard collectively as Flynn, Kilkenny, O'Callaghan, Brogan, Connolly, Rock. Which we might see this year yet.
Quote from: maddog on August 29, 2017, 08:43:57 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on August 28, 2017, 11:01:53 PM
After watching Tyrone play most of yesterday basically without a forward line, my mind was cast back to the early to mid 2000s where I have the biased opinion that Tyrone had possibly the best forward unit I've seen in my lifetime. Some teams have 3 or 4 good forwards and carry a few lesser lights but anyone one of Dooher, McGuigan, Cavlan (or McGinley), O'Neill, Canavan and Mulligan would have been an absolute stand out player on yesterday's team. So my question is what is the best group of 6 forwards you have seen play together? I.e. Each player must be a stand out player in their own right.
Notable others (off the top of my head - there may be one or two mistakes)
Meath circa 1988: Beggy, Cassalls, Gillic, O'Rourke, Stafford, Flynn
Down early 1990s: Carr, Blaney, Mason, Linden, Withnall, McCarten
Kerry early 1980s: Ger Power (I think), Ogie Moran, Spillane, Sheehy, Bomber, Egan
Armagh early 2000s: McKeever, McEntee, McConville, McDonnell, Clarke, Marsden
Edit: You could probably pick 6 out of about 10 of the current Dublin selection of forwards.
Stephen o' Neill is the best player i ever saw live. Simply awesome. The points he kicked against us were ridiculous. Injuries dampened the flame but when on song i never saw anyone better. Our own Stevie Mc Donnell came close.
Agree with this. As much as I tried to dislike him I just could t. Absolutely class player
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
I break it down to meath late 80"s having the best full forward line just in front of the kerry 70's one while flynn kilkenny connolly would been the best half forward line i seen in front of the late 90's galway half forward line.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
Off the top of my head, Mickey Kearns, Dermot Earley Snr, Tony McManus,Val Daly & Mickey Quinn all of whom I've seen play for neighbouring counties would make any team. Anyone who suggests that Darwinism can be seen as a factor in the development of teams over a period of 25 years needs a crash course in primary school science and education. The game may change in style but the great players would adapt to any situation. It is easy to ascribe greatness to any set of six forwards in a winning team ... harder to recognise it in a fellow holding a poor team together.
Greatest forward line ever
andy moran and cillain o connor
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
I'd argue that great natural forwards of the past would be stars in any era, irrespective of developments on the game - players such as Kevin Heffernan, Paddy Doherty, Sean O'Neill, Mattie McDonagh, Mick Higgins, Iggy Jones, Packie McGarty, Sean Purcell, etc., etc., etc.
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on August 29, 2017, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
I'd argue that great natural forwards of the past would be stars in any era, irrespective of developments on the game - players such as Kevin Heffernan, Paddy Doherty, Sean O'Neill, Mattie McDonagh, Mick Higgins, Iggy Jones, Packie McGarty, Sean Purcell, etc., etc., etc.
I'd agree but I think what thewobbler is trying to say is that if you are comparing on what you've seen in a point in time view, i.e Sean O'Neill in the 60's transported through time to now and put on the field against Connolly, without having access to modern diet plans, weights etc it would be a non contest.
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on August 29, 2017, 11:56:29 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
I'd argue that great natural forwards of the past would be stars in any era, irrespective of developments on the game - players such as Kevin Heffernan, Paddy Doherty, Sean O'Neill, Mattie McDonagh, Mick Higgins, Iggy Jones, Packie McGarty, Sean Purcell, etc., etc., etc.
Indeed we'd all like to think so. They're our heroes after all.
But in other sports where there is like for like measurements of success between generations (marathon times, breaststroke times, darts averages, number of century breaks, score vs par etc), every generation exceeds the previous one.
To suggest that team sports like Gaelic Football would be immune to evolution requires more than a touch of romanticism.
And even if your heart tells you otherwise, your head cannot surely ignore the evidence delivered by TG4 gold.
---
Maybe the natural talent of a Sean Purcell or Sean O'Neill, if born in 2000, would surpass modern players and it would come down to desire. But if we can agree that in other sports, participants are getting more coordinated through the generations, again surely this holds through for GAA. Being accepted as an extraordinarily skilful player in the 60s simply wouldn't have required as much skill as it does now. Indeed a great performance in just 1-2 matches in the 60s would have sealed the deal.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 08:07:13 AM
Obviously the Wexford 4 in a row lads.
The first Tipperary team broke the mould, really
They invented the pass, the wides, the frees, the 65s , basically everything
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 11:13:58 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Old timers might not like to admit it but a combination of Darwinism, coaching, education and sports science would make it extremely unlikely that the best forward line (back line, midfield, goalkeeper) of all time wasn't from the past few years.
Think about this. Not one Derry forward from 1992 makes the Dublin bench.
a
So mbappe is better than Pele.
and anyone over $100m is better than Cruyff
Because that's the why ?
Derry was 93 anawez
Not the best team to win that time
McCartan, Blaney and Mickey Linden would walk onto that Dubs team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t0fbuw1Ll0
Down could have won 4 in a row if there had been qualifiers that time
why bring a soccer player's valuation into it Seafoid?
Soccer enjoys the same romantic nonsense as Gaelic football. Cruyff and Pele were geniuses of their time. But any suggestion that people who play in team sports could easily skip generations, when statistics prove that the highest rung of athletes in individual/measured sports would evidentially struggle just two generations later, is bordering on clinically insane.
----
Down would never have won 4 in a row. As talented as they were, they also knew that life was for living.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 09:42:03 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on August 29, 2017, 09:25:06 AM
Galway had a very good forward line in the early noughties too. Joyce, Fallon, Donnellan being standouts, but they could all play.
Honestly, not even worthy a mention. The likes of Niall Finnegan, Shay Walsh, Paul Clancy, John Donnellan barely register a blip on the memories.
Shay Walsh and John Donnellan yes (although both were just bit part players really even though Shay Walsh started the 98 final) but Paul Clancy and Niall Finnegan were super players in their own right that would have got on any team in the country in their primes. Derek Savage too. They were just overshadowed by all time talents like Joyce, Donnellan and Ja.
QuoteBut I genuinely doubt any forward line in history would present as many problems individually or work as hard collectively as Flynn, Kilkenny, O'Callaghan, Brogan, Connolly, Rock. Which we might see this year yet.
Unlikely to see Flynn,Brogan or Connolly start the All Ireland final but that might be the forward line that finishes the final.
Notable others that i don't think has been mentioned yet?
Cork 1989/90 D. Barry, L. Tompkins, T. McCarthy, P. McGrath, C. O'Neill, M. McCarthy
Donegal 1992 J. McHugh, M. McHugh, J. McMullan, D. Bonner, T. Boyle, M. Boyle
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
why bring a soccer player's valuation into it Seafoid?
Soccer enjoys the same romantic nonsense as Gaelic football. Cruyff and Pele were geniuses of their time. But any suggestion that people who play in team sports could easily skip generations, when statistics prove that the highest rung of athletes in individual/measured sports would evidentially struggle just two generations later, is bordering on clinically insane.
----
Down would never have won 4 in a row. As talented as they were, they also knew that life was for living.
Goethe said people overestimate the importance of their own times. . Every team has journeymen and mercenaries in soccer. Timeless class cannot be reached via food supplements. People with the vision and timing of someone like Cruyff or Michael Donnellan cannot be manufactured.
And how sophisticated are modern systems anyway?
Quote from: Rossfan on August 29, 2017, 11:01:21 AM
How can a forum mainly populated by people born after 1980 have any vague notion of best forwards EVER!!!
Maybe try last 25 years.
Yeah, my title isn't great and was not really what I meant. Of course we can't judge players we have never seen so I meant the best 6 forwards you have seen play.
Quote from: thewobbler on August 29, 2017, 01:08:18 PM
why bring a soccer player's valuation into it Seafoid?
Soccer enjoys the same romantic nonsense as Gaelic football. Cruyff and Pele were geniuses of their time. But any suggestion that people who play in team sports could easily skip generations, when statistics prove that the highest rung of athletes in individual/measured sports would evidentially struggle just two generations later, is bordering on clinically insane.
----
Down would never have won 4 in a row. As talented as they were, they also knew that life was for living.
Because they also have diet fitness etc. Pure talent is timeless.
If the old legends had the same prep as the Dub galacticos they would be at least as good.
You can only compare time separated things on a ceteris Paribus basis.
Matt Connor in his day would still make hay with any current defender
What is natural talent ?!
Kids born up until the end of probably the 1950's didn't have access to the nurture that kids do today.
Kids born pre ~1990 didn't have the range of hobbies that all compliment one another in skill, agility, fitness, coordination, development, etc. that kids do today
Kids born pre probably ~2005 weren't exposed to the level of coaching, etc from GAA investment in that area than kids born before that .... (notwithstanding that some counties are more equal than others in terms of the money received per registered player)
And (strange one for last) kids born pre probably ~2000 didn't have parents who were clued into which hobbies were the ones to focus on if you wanted your kids to excel at football (or at least its something i've noticed in past couple of years with young lads doing dancing and gymnastics for a few years because of the agility, coordination, fitness etc that they get from them)
All these advantages i believe help create a higher level of what we call 'natural talent' than what the average kid born 20 years or more ago would have had. Of course genetics play a part but i am more of the belief of 90% phenotype and 10% genotype.
Now you have to counter all those benefits against the more sedentary lifestyle of most kids today. But there are plenty of kids who don't have that sedentary lifestyle and have different hobbies every night of the week that all compliment one another and will culminate in them being bloody good footballers ..... meaning i reckon in 10 years time we will be looking at matches saying the skill level has never been higher (albeit with Pat Spillane on the Sunday Game still claiming that his Kerry team were the greatest ever ..... having successful gotten his hands on and destroyed all copies of Kerry v Dublin in the '77 semi-final lest people would actually watch it and realise how sh*te football was back then :))