Definitely getting worse...1st Cork goal the latest...
I was thinking that when I watched the Sunday game last night
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
Steps mean tackling is a mess. It is impossible to time a tackle if steps are abused
Quote from: seafoid on July 24, 2017, 08:40:20 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
Steps mean tackling is a mess. It is impossible to time a tackle if steps are abused
Exactly.
Couldn't agree more. It's an epidemic at this stage but won't get any airtime because enforcing it isn't a route to more scores therefore it couldn't possibly improve the game.
A bugbear of mine - I've said on here before that I think you can attribute a lot of issues with the game directly to allowing too many steps. Should be able to time positioning and tackle so as to only contact the ball, but when you know the lad is going to get 8 steps to get round you you physically need to stop him, which makes the whole thing a mess.
I couldn't agree more with this. I remember when I was younger going to watch inter county games and being amazed at how many steps the players were being allowed, and it is getting worse. Some referees use the old "its steps or seconds" excuse as reasoning behind it, definitely making defenders life more difficult.
Quote from: TheClutch on July 24, 2017, 09:39:35 AM
I couldn't agree more with this. I remember when I was younger going to watch inter county games and being amazed at how many steps the players were being allowed, and it is getting worse. Some referees use the old "its steps or seconds" excuse as reasoning behind it, definitely making defenders life more difficult.
The rule allows for 'time it takes to make 4 steps'.
It is let go too often though.
Quote from: vallankumous on July 24, 2017, 09:45:23 AM
Quote from: TheClutch on July 24, 2017, 09:39:35 AM
I couldn't agree more with this. I remember when I was younger going to watch inter county games and being amazed at how many steps the players were being allowed, and it is getting worse. Some referees use the old "its steps or seconds" excuse as reasoning behind it, definitely making defenders life more difficult.
The rule allows for 'time it takes to make 4 steps'.
It is let go too often though.
Yeh I agree.
Ryan Johnston from Down does a very exaggerated bounce when he is on the ball. Brings the ball almost up over the height of his head very slowly in an almost basketball type fashion before actually bouncing the ball, in which time he has taken 6-7 steps and I've never seen him get blown for it at club or county level - smart play or bending the rules?
Quote from: TheClutch on July 24, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Yeh I agree.
Ryan Johnston from Down does a very exaggerated bounce when he is on the ball. Brings the ball almost up over the height of his head very slowly in an almost basketball type fashion before actually bouncing the ball, in which time he has taken 6-7 steps and I've never seen him get blown for it at club or county level - smart play or bending the rules?
Alan Brogan used to do something similar but Johnston is way more exaggerated. It's very smart by him as the refs seem to judge it as he is bouncing the ball (even though it hasn't left his hand yet) and so he is allowed to take a large amount of steps.
Ciaran Kilkenny takes 3/4 steps while carrying the ball in the hand as he bounces
I would call that a foul
Quote from: Smokin Joe on July 24, 2017, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: TheClutch on July 24, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Yeh I agree.
Ryan Johnston from Down does a very exaggerated bounce when he is on the ball. Brings the ball almost up over the height of his head very slowly in an almost basketball type fashion before actually bouncing the ball, in which time he has taken 6-7 steps and I've never seen him get blown for it at club or county level - smart play or bending the rules?
Alan Brogan used to do something similar but Johnston is way more exaggerated. It's very smart by him as the refs seem to judge it as he is bouncing the ball (even though it hasn't left his hand yet) and so he is allowed to take a large amount of steps.
I think that is fair enough as the ball is there to be tackled while it is being held out waiting to be bounced . a good tackle should win that ball back as opposed to the head first ball under there arm method of some players
Quote from: rosnarun on July 24, 2017, 10:21:43 AM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on July 24, 2017, 10:11:27 AM
Quote from: TheClutch on July 24, 2017, 10:08:23 AM
Yeh I agree.
Ryan Johnston from Down does a very exaggerated bounce when he is on the ball. Brings the ball almost up over the height of his head very slowly in an almost basketball type fashion before actually bouncing the ball, in which time he has taken 6-7 steps and I've never seen him get blown for it at club or county level - smart play or bending the rules?
Alan Brogan used to do something similar but Johnston is way more exaggerated. It's very smart by him as the refs seem to judge it as he is bouncing the ball (even though it hasn't left his hand yet) and so he is allowed to take a large amount of steps.
I think that is fair enough as the ball is there to be tackled while it is being held out waiting to be bounced . a good tackle should win that ball back as opposed to the head first ball under there arm method of some players
The ball can be knocked from a player's hand at any time so on that basis, and to clamp down on the likes of Johnston, I think the bounce should be deemed to have begun when the ball leaves the hand.
I've been saying for ages that the rule should be changed to three seconds rather than four steps, for the reasons outline above. Three seconds, no interpretation needed.
Funny enough that this topic came up as the woman was watching hurling yesterday and she has tried to grasp the rules over the years and was watcing it under the textbook steps guidance, 4 steps/4 seconds. She kept getting confused at the number of steps being took and why it was allowed.
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 24, 2017, 10:24:43 AM
The ball can be knocked from a player's hand at any time so on that basis, and to clamp down on the likes of Johnston, I think the bounce should be deemed to have begun when the ball leaves the hand.
I've been saying for ages that the rule should be changed to three seconds rather than four steps, for the reasons outline above. Three seconds, no interpretation needed.
It's a grey area for sure.
The rule allows for referee discretion without saying that.
It's hard to know the impact a change would have.
Add me to the list of people who want to see this rule enforced.
I was at an U11 hurling blitz on Saturday morning before heading into the Gaelic Grounds, and in one of the games one of our lads took about 10 steps with the ball, under pressure. The opposition shouted 'steps' but the ref said, and I quote 'He's grand, he was being fouled'. It's obvious refs allow extra steps if they feel someone is being fouled, but I think now they allow the extra steps if they are even under pressure! Very hard. We coach defending, in football, as follows. If you are sideways on, near hand in and dispossess when he plays the ball. If you can, pivot him, and get in front. Stop his momentum, and then dispossess when he tries to play the ball. It's very frustrating when refs give the man loads of time/steps when he's under pressure, because defenders start getting annoyed and start fouling.
The only way steps seems to be given now is if you can hold his momentum up (delay) and then take his space away (deny). If the ball carrier looks hesitant, or turns and twists, you get the decision. If he bulls forward it's 50-50 at best.
Anyone else disappointed this wasnt about the band? :-[
Quote from: quit yo jibbajabba on July 24, 2017, 10:50:32 AM
Anyone else disappointed this wasnt about the band? :-[
Tragedy!
5,6,7,8
Steps/steps
there's no rule to ignore too many steps when being fouled
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 24, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
there's no rule to ignore too many steps when being fouled
I know. But the refs just seem to have adopted this as like a pseudo advantage rule.
Ryan Johnston takes the biscuit though, he has great balance and a nice jink but he gets about 6/7 steps everytime he has the ball. Some players are now actually wrapping the ball up and taking it for a stroll!
In fairness it's not new though. DJ Carey carried the ball for more steps than it takes me to walk to the shop.
I agree 100% with this and as someone that was a defender for most of my career, its always been a bugbear of mine.
I think the idea to change from 4 steps to 3 seconds is a god idea. If someone can take 5/6 steps in that time , then so be it, but at least it gives you a reasonable chance of defending it and timing the tackle.
Quote from: the goal was on on July 24, 2017, 11:26:40 AM
Ryan Johnston takes the biscuit though, he has great balance and a nice jink but he gets about 6/7 steps everytime he has the ball. Some players are now actually wrapping the ball up and taking it for a stroll!
Dan Flynn is the master of this as well.
Flynn likes the big bounce.
Andy Moran seems to always overcarry straight after he collects the ball while twisting and turning.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 11:27:35 AM
In fairness it's not new though. DJ Carey carried the ball for more steps than it takes me to walk to the shop.
Apparently they were only very small steps so it didn't matter!!!
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
But if you take too many steps while playing an advantage it is then a free against you
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
Along with the 'rule' whereby some referees allow you to handpass with one hand if your other hand is being help back shows how much of a revamp the rule book needs
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
accrue?
you sound like martin carney
Quote from: Taylor on July 24, 2017, 03:11:05 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
Along with the 'rule' whereby some referees allow you to handpass with one hand if your other hand is being help back shows how much of a revamp the rule book needs
You are allowed to do this regardless whether your other hand is held or not. See 1.4 (e) and (f) below.
Rule 1.4:
When a player is in possession of the ball, it
may be:-
(a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive
steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer
than the time needed to take four steps;
(b) played from the foot to the hand(s) -toetapped;
(c) bounced once, and once after each toe-tap;
(d) changed from one hand to the other once,
with the original holding hand maintaining
contact until the change is completed;
(e) played away with:
(i) a fist
(ii) an open hand-in which instance there
shall be a definite underhand striking
action
(f) released for a kick, a toe-tap or a pass with
a fist or an open hand.
That's a shocking insult.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:27:17 PM
That's a shocking insult.
yeah, sorry
bit over the top, it must be said....
It's ok. There was no malice in it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
If you foul while on an advantage be in throw ball, double bounce, over carry it's a free against you, FACT, this is a problem with lots of people not understanding the rules
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
If you foul while on an advantage be in throw ball, double bounce, over carry it's a free against you, FACT, this is a problem with lots of people not understanding the rules
You are wrong. Because the act of fouling is in itself not an advantage so the ref brings it back.
Edit. Apologies, you are 100% right. The referees handbook does indeed state that if a foul is committed by the team receiving the advantage, then advantage is cancelled and a free awarded AGAINST them. It doesn't make sense to me, but you are spot on. Apologies.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 06:40:33 PM
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
If you foul while on an advantage be in throw ball, double bounce, over carry it's a free against you, FACT, this is a problem with lots of people not understanding the rules
You are wrong. Because the act of fouling is in itself not an advantage so the ref brings it back.
Edit. Apologies, you are 100% right. The referees handbook does indeed state that if a foul is committed by the team receiving the advantage, then advantage is cancelled and a free awarded AGAINST them. It doesn't make sense to me, but you are spot on. Apologies.
[/quote
Lol, thanks I knew I was right but I don't agree with it either
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 06:40:33 PM
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 06:09:54 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 03:08:45 PM
No it isn't. If advantage doesn't accrue, then you are brought back for the original foul. The very fact you are taking too many steps means you are not gaining a legal advantage.
If you foul while on an advantage be in throw ball, double bounce, over carry it's a free against you, FACT, this is a problem with lots of people not understanding the rules
You are wrong. Because the act of fouling is in itself not an advantage so the ref brings it back.
Edit. Apologies, you are 100% right. The referees handbook does indeed state that if a foul is committed by the team receiving the advantage, then advantage is cancelled and a free awarded AGAINST them. It doesn't make sense to me, but you are spot on. Apologies.
That's ridiculous, definitely should be called back for the initial foul as per rugby rules
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 24, 2017, 11:36:34 AM
I agree 100% with this and as someone that was a defender for most of my career, its always been a bugbear of mine.
I think the idea to change from 4 steps to 3 seconds is a god idea. If someone can take 5/6 steps in that time , then so be it, but at least it gives you a reasonable chance of defending it and timing the tackle.
I think that's an erroneous interpretation of the rule.
The rule is 4 steps, OR if you're just holding the ball you have that same amount of time to decide upon an action.
At least that's the clear intent of the rule, imo.
There is a level of ambiguity in the rule but I think it's not at all credible to think that a player can take more than 4 steps, if they're fast steps :)
When a player is in possession of the ball, it
may be:-
(a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive
steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer
than the time needed to take four steps;
Yer boy Johnston with the haircut takes 6 steps whilst performing an elaborate bounce of the ball.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 24, 2017, 04:27:39 PM
It's ok. There was no malice in it.
yea manfromdelmonte is not that type of poster..
Quote from: Main Street on July 24, 2017, 11:10:53 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 24, 2017, 11:36:34 AM
I agree 100% with this and as someone that was a defender for most of my career, its always been a bugbear of mine.
I think the idea to change from 4 steps to 3 seconds is a god idea. If someone can take 5/6 steps in that time , then so be it, but at least it gives you a reasonable chance of defending it and timing the tackle.
I think that's an erroneous interpretation of the rule.
The rule is 4 steps, OR if you're just holding the ball you have that same amount of time to decide upon an action.
At least that's the clear intent of the rule, imo.
There is a level of ambiguity in the rule but I think it's not at all credible to think that a player can take more than 4 steps, if they're fast steps :)
When a player is in possession of the ball, it
may be:-
(a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive
steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer
than the time needed to take four steps;
What I am saying is, forget about the number of steps, the rule could be changed to a period of time (3 seconds as suggested)
That would leave no ambiguity on how many steps where take etc, how long it takes to take 4 steps and all that. You are allowed 3 seconds to play the ball and thats it.
3 seconds is actually a long time. You could cover 20/25 metres easily in that time.
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2017, 08:48:00 AM
3 seconds is actually a long time. You could cover 20/25 metres easily in that time.
I'm fine with that. If someone is going to cover 25 metres in three seconds then I don't think anyone is going to make a clean tackle on them at that speed anyway.
Quote from: Main Street on July 24, 2017, 11:10:53 PM
I think that's an erroneous interpretation of the rule.
The rule is 4 steps, OR if you're just holding the ball you have that same amount of time to decide upon an action.
At least that's the clear intent of the rule, imo.
There is a level of ambiguity in the rule but I think it's not at all credible to think that a player can take more than 4 steps, if they're fast steps :)
When a player is in possession of the ball, it
may be:-
(a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive
steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer
than the time needed to take four steps;
This is to allow referee discretion. The same thing as the 3 second rule being called for.
If you make it a 3 second rule we will be back here discussion the same problem.
If you chance your arm and get away with it then good enough. If ye get caught then good enough too. The same applies or the pick up and the hand pass. All technical fouls ye might get away with and you might not.
Quote from: vallankumous on July 25, 2017, 09:45:57 AM
Quote from: Main Street on July 24, 2017, 11:10:53 PM
I think that's an erroneous interpretation of the rule.
The rule is 4 steps, OR if you're just holding the ball you have that same amount of time to decide upon an action.
At least that's the clear intent of the rule, imo.
There is a level of ambiguity in the rule but I think it's not at all credible to think that a player can take more than 4 steps, if they're fast steps :)
When a player is in possession of the ball, it
may be:-
(a) carried for a maximum of four consecutive
steps or held in the hand(s) for no longer
than the time needed to take four steps;
This is to allow referee discretion. The same thing as the 3 second rule being called for.
If you make it a 3 second rule we will be back here discussion the same problem.
If you chance your arm and get away with it then good enough. If ye get caught then good enough too. The same applies or the pick up and the hand pass. All technical fouls ye might get away with and you might not.
Why? Three seconds is three seconds is it not?
3 seconds is an eternity. I'd prefer to leave the mess we have now that allow 3 seconds between plays.
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2017, 11:28:44 AM
3 seconds is an eternity. I'd prefer to leave the mess we have now that allow 3 seconds between plays.
who said 3 seconds does the time vary in that a quick player get 3 seconds and a lumbering cornerback gets around 5?
its what seems to happen with delaying free kick . Cillian o connor get pull up after 35 seconds in the Connaught final a few years back yet cluxton was giver 1min 20 to take the match winning score the same year
Quote from: rosnarun on July 25, 2017, 11:37:53 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2017, 11:28:44 AM
3 seconds is an eternity. I'd prefer to leave the mess we have now that allow 3 seconds between plays.
who said 3 seconds does the time vary in that a quick player get 3 seconds and a lumbering cornerback gets around 5?
its what seems to happen with delaying free kick . Cillian o connor get pull up after 35 seconds in the Connaught final a few years back yet cluxton was giver 1min 20 to take the match winning score the same year
either change the rule to 5/6 steps or enforce 4 steps or the time needed to take 4 -
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 25, 2017, 11:21:37 AM
Why? Three seconds is three seconds is it not?
No, Time is relative
4 steps is too few imo - make it 8 or whatever but enforce it. Cillian Oconnor took 12 steps before scoring a goal against us earlier this year.
There's a lot of subjectivity in the modern game that may or may not be good, things like
- how much time the ref will play (or won't play😄😄)
- how many steps can you really get away with
- will it be yellow black or red card
- was he in the square before the ball was played (mayo again)
- how much time the ref allows when a goalie takes a minute and a half to kick a free in extra time
I've said it many times before but a stopclock and 2 refs would be a good start....
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 25, 2017, 02:13:36 PM
Could you explain please?
My 3 seconds can be different than your 3 seconds. Your 3 seconds can also be different from your 3 seconds. The same thing applies to referees.
This is why I think we would end up back here discussing the 3 second rule.
Quote from: vallankumous on July 25, 2017, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 25, 2017, 02:13:36 PM
Could you explain please?
My 3 seconds can be different than your 3 seconds. Your 3 seconds can also be different from your 3 seconds. The same thing applies to referees.
This is why I think we would end up back here discussing the 3 second rule.
I understand your point. But that applies to many areas of the game. It shouldn't stop the changing of the rule if it's seen as beneficial.
The time taken to take four steps is much more open to interpretation than a three second rule.
Quote from: rosnarun on July 25, 2017, 11:37:53 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2017, 11:28:44 AM
3 seconds is an eternity. I'd prefer to leave the mess we have now that allow 3 seconds between plays.
who said 3 seconds does the time vary in that a quick player get 3 seconds and a lumbering cornerback gets around 5?
its what seems to happen with delaying free kick . Cillian o connor get pull up after 35 seconds in the Connaught final a few years back yet cluxton was giver 1min 20 to take the match winning score the same year
I take your point in general, but Cluxton's was exactly a minute from the time the free was awarded. Awarded 70.51, kicked 71.51. Consistent with at least one Kerry free earlier in the game.
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
But if you take too many steps while playing an advantage it is then a free against you
At times when the tackle is only robust, refs tend to allow a player with the ball the extra steps just so he can ride the tackle.
Their cover of Tragedy would probably my favourite song of theirs.
Quote from: Main Street on July 25, 2017, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
But if you take too many steps while playing an advantage it is then a free against you
At times when the tackle is only robust, refs tend to allow a player with the ball the extra steps just so he can ride the tackle.
I don't think there's any doubt that refs allow players get away with extra steps if they think they are being fouled. It's not correct as ulsterman has pointed out but it happens. Have you ever seen a ref penalise a player for a technical foul while he has the advantage? I never have.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
I don't think there's any doubt that refs allow players get away with extra steps if they think they are being fouled. It's not correct as ulsterman has pointed out but it happens. Have you ever seen a ref penalise a player for a technical foul while he has the advantage? I never have.
I have AZ, and I posed the question here afterwards as I couldn't believe it.
I think it was a home Armagh league game this season. Armagh had the advantage and then the player that was playing the advantage made an illegal handpass and the ref awarded a free against him.
EDIT: I searched my posts and I see it occurred in the Armagh club final last season, not the League. My post is here: http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=27413.msg1636067#msg1636067
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 25, 2017, 02:32:53 PM
I understand your point. But that applies to many areas of the game. It shouldn't stop the changing of the rule if it's seen as beneficial.
The time taken to take four steps is much more open to interpretation than a three second rule.
Yes it does and this is the grey area we are discussing.
My point is - there is no benefit from changing the rule from '
the time it takes' to '
3 seconds' as it will not address the grey area. It's just rewording.
If it becomes an enforced 3 seconds the Sunday Game will make hay with timing it in the studio ignoring the reality on the pitch in real time.
The time it takes to take four steps is to allow for referees to make the judgement which is fair. The introduction of one size fits all rule usually ends up unworkable as no two cases are the same.
Quote from: Smokin Joe on July 26, 2017, 07:14:51 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
I don't think there's any doubt that refs allow players get away with extra steps if they think they are being fouled. It's not correct as ulsterman has pointed out but it happens. Have you ever seen a ref penalise a player for a technical foul while he has the advantage? I never have.
I have AZ, and I posed the question here afterwards as I couldn't believe it.
I think it was a home Armagh league game this season. Armagh had the advantage and then the player that was playing the advantage made an illegal handpass and the ref awarded a free against him.
EDIT: I searched my posts and I see it occurred in the Armagh club final last season, not the League. My post is here: http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=27413.msg1636067#msg1636067
I think I saw it in a Sligo NFL game this year and lambasted the ref for it. I didn't know the rule.
Quote from: vallankumous on July 26, 2017, 08:04:36 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 25, 2017, 02:32:53 PM
I understand your point. But that applies to many areas of the game. It shouldn't stop the changing of the rule if it's seen as beneficial.
The time taken to take four steps is much more open to interpretation than a three second rule.
Yes it does and this is the grey area we are discussing.
My point is - there is no benefit from changing the rule from 'the time it takes' to '3 seconds' as it will not address the grey area. It's just rewording.
If it becomes an enforced 3 seconds the Sunday Game will make hay with timing it in the studio ignoring the reality on the pitch in real time.
The time it takes to take four steps is to allow for referees to make the judgement which is fair. The introduction of one size fits all rule usually ends up unworkable as no two cases are the same.
I disagree. A ref might miscount three seconds but that's an error on his part. He knows that it's three seconds which is an exact time. On the contrary, all cases are the same. So whether you're surrounded by players or standing on your own, you have three seconds to play the ball.
Let's agree that anything the Sunday Game have to say about it will only complicate matters. :)
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 25, 2017, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
But if you take too many steps while playing an advantage it is then a free against you
At times when the tackle is only robust, refs tend to allow a player with the ball the extra steps just so he can ride the tackle.
I don't think there's any doubt that refs allow players get away with extra steps if they think they are being fouled. It's not correct as ulsterman has pointed out but it happens. Have you ever seen a ref penalise a player for a technical foul while he has the advantage? I never have.
My point was more that even when the tackle is robust but legal, not a foul, the ref allows the player with the ball the extra steps to ride the legal tackle.
Quote from: Main Street on July 26, 2017, 12:05:29 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 25, 2017, 10:25:31 PM
Quote from: Main Street on July 25, 2017, 10:00:17 PM
Quote from: UlsterMan2 on July 24, 2017, 03:02:14 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 24, 2017, 08:38:12 AM
It's absolutely rampant and has been for years. Easily the most abused rule in the game. I have great sympathy for defenders because it is practically impossible to stop an opponent if they're allowed to violate this rule. Players should use the ball or face the consequences. If gaelic football was refereed correctly it would be much better.
Referees need to understand that allowing advantage doesn't mean you allow 10-12 steps. Hand up for advantage, when they take too many steps bring it back for the free.
But if you take too many steps while playing an advantage it is then a free against you
At times when the tackle is only robust, refs tend to allow a player with the ball the extra steps just so he can ride the tackle.
I don't think there's any doubt that refs allow players get away with extra steps if they think they are being fouled. It's not correct as ulsterman has pointed out but it happens. Have you ever seen a ref penalise a player for a technical foul while he has the advantage? I never have.
My point was more that even when the tackle is robust but legal, not a foul, the ref allows the player with the ball the extra steps to ride the legal tackle.
Exactly and then they are fouled and Dean Rock Puts over the free
I've seen it were a player is fouled 45 yards out and ref indicates advantage. Player knows free iswithin range for the free taker and stops playing electing to take the free and ref has blown him up for overcarring and awarded a free out
Maurice Deegan likes his steps
Andy Moran liked his steps.
Colm Boyle takes very quick, and many, steps.
Ger Aylward
Brian Howard
Every Dublin and Tyrone player yesterday
put the ball in one hand and away you go
Stephen O'Brien and Darren O'Sullivan from Kerry never get pulled for steps.
Once you runveryveryfast. ..
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 15, 2018, 10:02:51 AM
Every Dublin and Tyrone player yesterday
put the ball in one hand and away you go
Every player from all 4 teams yesterday and will be the same today. The steps rule isn't enforces and if you do that exaggerated movement with the ball in the hand out infront of you as if you're trying to bounce it you get an extra 3 or more steps.
It's getting worse you know......
The highlighted pieces on the Sunday game were ridiculous. That score after 16 steps!
Quote from: Jayop on July 15, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 15, 2018, 10:02:51 AM
Every Dublin and Tyrone player yesterday
put the ball in one hand and away you go
Every player from all 4 teams yesterday and will be the same today. The steps rule isn't enforces and if you do that exaggerated movement with the ball in the hand out infront of you as if you're trying to bounce it you get an extra 3 or more steps.
Perfected by John Gildea for Donegal 20 years ago. :) Think Alan Brogan picked up on it then.
One area where it pays to be a small fella. The players with little scuttling legs seem to get away with multiples of steps.
The other area is taking steps into a tackle, riding the tackle while taking more steps and then you seem to be allowed a fresh bunch of steps coming out of the tackle.
My pet hate, Stephen O'Brien not as culpable as he used to be but still getting away with it consistently. Ciaran Kilkenny another huge offender. Mattie Donnelly must have took 11-12 steps for Tyrone's first goal last Saturday but no mention of it anywhere unless it was flagged on the TSG on sunday night.
Quote from: Maroon Manc on July 23, 2019, 12:02:01 PM
My pet hate, Stephen O'Brien not as culpable as he used to be but still getting away with it consistently. Ciaran Kilkenny another huge offender. Mattie Donnelly must have took 11-12 steps for Tyrone's first goal last Saturday but no mention of it anywhere unless it was flagged on the TSG on sunday night.
You can take as many steps as you like, so long as you score a goal at the end of it. Double bounces also allowed in this case.
To be honest it is nearly impossible for the modern day player to play the ball in under 5 step running at full pelt now given the speed they move at.
They should increase it to 8 steps and enforce it.
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
Quote from: Angelo on July 23, 2019, 01:24:13 PM
To be honest it is nearly impossible for the modern day player to play the ball in under 5 step running at full pelt now given the speed they move at.
They should increase it to 8 steps and enforce it.
Jaysus our posts are eerily similar. :o
But is this speed a great thing that we want to protect? A man sprinting past his opposite number, ball tucked away so the defender can't get at it isn't attractive football for me to watch. I'd much rather a watch a tricky corner forward a la Canavan jink his way through than watch any number of flat track forwards just outrun their counterparts. When I talk about wanting a fast game, it's a game where the ball is moving faster that the players, rather than just getting carried by fast players.
I'll preempt this by saying that this isn't a dig at the Dubs, but one of the biggest benefits they have in their conditioning is the absolute speed of most of their players. They are all at peak conditioning and it's actually so noticeable how much quicker as a group they are over other teams. Making players take their bounce/ solo might slow down the players but hopefully the knock on effect would be that teams move the ball quicker and will allow skill to play a bigger part in the equation as well.
It's important when discussing the issue of 'steps' to also consider the lack of turnovers in the modern game from one on one tackling. With this overcarrying not being punished by the tackler or the referee, I think it's only going to get worse. Compare with Australian rules football, clearly defined tackle, which can be made successfully in a one verse one scenario therefore the player on the ball will aim to move it before contact even though he can run the ball 20 metres before playing it if he chooses. The likelihood of losing the ball in the tackle means he moves the ball. It's now all but impossible to turnover the ball one v one in modern Gaelic football resulting in mass defences.
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after 6/7 steps felt he had to hold on and then fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after fouling McHugh for 6/7 steps felt he had to continue to foul him hold on and then dragged McHugh to the ground fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
FYP
There are many examples in every game where it should be a free for over-carrying and I'm sure Ryan has been a culprit on many occasions. This was such a clear black-card that I don't think you are helping your case by trying to use it though.
Quote from: StephenC on July 25, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after fouling McHugh for 6/7 steps felt he had to continue to foul him hold on and then dragged McHugh to the ground fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
FYP
There are many examples in every game where it should be a free for over-carrying and I'm sure Ryan has been a culprit on many occasions. This was such a clear black-card that I don't think you are helping your case by trying to use it though.
But had the ref blew for the first 'foul' (overcarrying, then there would have been no black card). I battle with the 4 steps rule as a ref. We'd be blowing every 20 seconds and the cries for over carrying from all involved would be unreal!
Ref's still apply the 'player being held slightly' and allowing more steps to break free from the challenge, rather than sticking the arm up right away for a pull/drag back (advantage rule), which normally happenes when a quick player tries to get past an defender.
And yes, Ive applied it before, the 4 steps rule during a few games and they were the most stop start games ever. I believe the key is to make sure that both teams get application of the 'rules' during the game, then there are no complaints
Quote from: StephenC on July 25, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after fouling McHugh for 6/7 steps felt he had to continue to foul him hold on and then dragged McHugh to the ground fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
FYP
There are many examples in every game where it should be a free for over-carrying and I'm sure Ryan has been a culprit on many occasions. This was such a clear black-card that I don't think you are helping your case by trying to use it though.
Ah, a sensitive Donegal man. It ended up being a black card after overcarrying and a mere foul (the order of which is debatable but both occurred). Ryan is a serial offender in this regard but while it's working for him he might as well.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 25, 2019, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: StephenC on July 25, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after fouling McHugh for 6/7 steps felt he had to continue to foul him hold on and then dragged McHugh to the ground fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
FYP
There are many examples in every game where it should be a free for over-carrying and I'm sure Ryan has been a culprit on many occasions. This was such a clear black-card that I don't think you are helping your case by trying to use it though.
But had the ref blew for the first 'foul' (overcarrying, then there would have been no black card). I battle with the 4 steps rule as a ref. We'd be blowing every 20 seconds and the cries for over carrying from all involved would be unreal!
Ref's still apply the 'player being held slightly' and allowing more steps to break free from the challenge, rather than sticking the arm up right away for a pull/drag back (advantage rule), which normally happenes when a quick player tries to get past an defender.
And yes, Ive applied it before, the 4 steps rule during a few games and they were the most stop start games ever. I believe the key is to make sure that both teams get application of the 'rules' during the game, then there are no complaints
Can understand that being the case but if it was stuck to by all referees it would tighten up quickly.
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 04:19:17 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 25, 2019, 11:46:57 AM
Quote from: StephenC on July 25, 2019, 11:29:02 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:19:42 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
That's simply untrue. If you comply with the rule you're giving your opponent a chance to make an effective tackle so they run as fast as they can and when they feel safe they play the ball. Defenders have an impossible job. See Gavin White's black card the last day. He was all over Ryan McHugh but after fouling McHugh for 6/7 steps felt he had to continue to foul him hold on and then dragged McHugh to the ground fell himself (he was stupid to maintain hold of the jersey and pull him down, granted). If McHugh had played the ball in 4/5 stpes White would have had a chance to dispossess. Everyone says - definite black card but in truth is was a free for overcarrying.
I've been on about this for ages and it has gotten way, way worse.
FYP
There are many examples in every game where it should be a free for over-carrying and I'm sure Ryan has been a culprit on many occasions. This was such a clear black-card that I don't think you are helping your case by trying to use it though.
But had the ref blew for the first 'foul' (overcarrying, then there would have been no black card). I battle with the 4 steps rule as a ref. We'd be blowing every 20 seconds and the cries for over carrying from all involved would be unreal!
Ref's still apply the 'player being held slightly' and allowing more steps to break free from the challenge, rather than sticking the arm up right away for a pull/drag back (advantage rule), which normally happenes when a quick player tries to get past an defender.
And yes, Ive applied it before, the 4 steps rule during a few games and they were the most stop start games ever. I believe the key is to make sure that both teams get application of the 'rules' during the game, then there are no complaints
Can understand that being the case but if it was stuck to by all referees it would tighten up quickly.
If it's not being adhered to, it's purely the refs fault, I get that.
Certain directives come from HQ's each year on rules and during counties courses for refereeing at the start of the year they are discussed and highlighted as a major part of the rules to be enforced. In my many years of refereeing it's never been a bone of contention. This years one was on strikes to the head and the hurling hand pass rule, was other things brought up but these two were more so highlighted.
I'd personally like it to be 4/5 seconds rather than steps.
4/5 seconds? Intercounty players could run 30-40 metres in that time.
Simple way out -let them carry as long as they like but allow man to be tackled who must then play the ball with his foot :P
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:33:58 PM
4/5 seconds? Intercounty players could run 30-40 metres in that time.
Well the rule is four steps or the time it takes you to take four steps.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 26, 2019, 12:22:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:33:58 PM
4/5 seconds? Intercounty players could run 30-40 metres in that time.
Well the rule is four steps or the time it takes you to take four steps.
Exactly, the whistle's blown (or should be) on the 5th (count/second), nach ea?
Tyrone posters might remember Clithero refereeing. In underage matches, if someone was soloing the ball near a tackler or was in danger of overcarrying he used to count 1,2,3,4.. out loud. Actually worked well enough.
Quote from: laceer on July 26, 2019, 12:48:32 AM
Tyrone posters might remember Clithero refereeing. In underage matches, if someone was soloing the ball near a tackler or was in danger of overcarrying he used to count 1,2,3,4.. out loud. Actually worked well enough.
Did he also do a ten count when they dived. :)
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 26, 2019, 12:22:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:33:58 PM
4/5 seconds? Intercounty players could run 30-40 metres in that time.
Well the rule is four steps or the time it takes you to take four steps.
I know that. You suggested allowing "4/5 seconds rather than steps" which I pointed out would be madness.
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
Complete rubbish. It
is the game for chrissakes.
Quote from: haranguerer on July 26, 2019, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
Complete rubbish. It is the game for chrissakes.
Are you telling me it's possible to solo/bounce every 4 steps running at the speed that McCaffrey run at?
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 26, 2019, 10:11:48 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on July 26, 2019, 10:02:18 AM
Quote from: RedHand88 on July 23, 2019, 01:25:05 PM
The problem is the speed with which the game is played now. Its impossible to solo/bounce every 4 steps and run as fast as the modern game.
This is what congress should be focusing on. They'd be better off making the rule 6 steps and enforcing it.
Complete rubbish. It is the game for chrissakes.
Are you telling me it's possible to solo/bounce every 4 steps running at the speed that McCaffrey run at?
But the point is that it's not a sprinting competition. I don't care how fast McCaffrey can run. I do care about how well he can pass a man while legally soloing/ bouncing the ball. If he's not doing that, he's not playing football. It's more akin to rugby.
F**k me there are some silly c***ts on this board, players run too fast to play the ball every 4 steps, I have heard it all now, talk about empty vessels....
close this thread
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 26, 2019, 08:30:22 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 26, 2019, 12:22:01 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on July 25, 2019, 11:33:58 PM
4/5 seconds? Intercounty players could run 30-40 metres in that time.
Well the rule is four steps or the time it takes you to take four steps.
I know that. You suggested allowing "4/5 seconds rather than steps" which I pointed out would be madness.
At least with the 4 seconds everyone gets the same time frame to get out of a tackle or for a defender to make that challenge on the 4 second mark, turn over ball for overcarrying and a way we go!