Should be a good game and i'd expect Armagh to sneak this one, Armagh will bring a big crowd to the midlands so stock up your bars with Buckfast and extra Garda to keep them in check ;)
has the venue been decided as I thought there was a further draw to decide home/away status?
Armagh do not have a good record in Mullingar.
Quote from: naka on June 26, 2017, 09:58:40 AM
has the venue been decided as I thought there was a further draw to decide home/away status?
Venue hasn't been confirmed but Westmeath will be at home and it will be played in Cusack Park. Tough draw, only Cavan would have been tougher, needed Wexford or Cavan after yesterday to get us moving again, but at least we have it at home.
Quote from: naka on June 26, 2017, 09:58:40 AM
has the venue been decided as I thought there was a further draw to decide home/away status?
Fair point, i may have jumped the gun there when i seen Westmeath named first. Sure i can change the title if it's reversed
Not the worst draw for Armagh IMO. Would have preferred a home draw but you cant have everything. I also had a wee fancy for another match up with Tipp following our league collapse.
Hard to know whether Westmeath will now be completely shot of any confidence or highly motivated to prove that they arent as poor as yesterday showed (obviously Dublin could do that job on a lot of counties).
Quotehas the venue been decided as I thought there was a further draw to decide home/away status?
That's what I thought as well so first out of the bowl didnt give home advantage, instead there was a second draw to determine home advantage? That's what he said before the draw on the radio anyway. Maybe the second draw was done there and then and I missed it.
Good pairing for both teams, 50/50.
Quote from: balladmaker on June 26, 2017, 12:35:46 PM
Quotehas the venue been decided as I thought there was a further draw to decide home/away status?
That's what I thought as well so first out of the bowl didnt give home advantage, instead there was a second draw to determine home advantage? That's what he said before the draw on the radio anyway. Maybe the second draw was done there and then and I missed it.
Good pairing for both teams, 50/50.
There was a second draw. It just happened at the same time.
There were 3 pots. The 4 semi final losers in one pot, and the 4 qualifier winners in the other.
They drew a cannister out of each pot, and placed it unopened in the third pot.
Then they rooted around and drew out the home team from that third pot first, and opened both.
Cusack Park, 7pm.
Def looks like a night in Mullingar singing Joe Dolan songs :P
I'll be on holidays but I doubt it'll be the primary TV attraction anyway. Wexford v Monaghan will presumably by the choice?
John Heslin could go to town on the Armagh FB line.
After watching Westmeath yesterday I'd be surprised if Armagh don't win this fairly easily, imagine going to Westmeath training this week, morale can't be good
Armagh defence still very porous
Fermanagh had a few goal chances
They need to close down the middle
For me it's a toss up.
Seriously a toss up against a team that shipped 31pts@ if thats where you think armagh are more the pity
Armagh should throttle them, to be honest. Might be best for everyone involved as it should force the Westmeath CB to remove Cribbin.
No disrespect to Westmeath but Armagh should be winning this with 4-5 pts to spare, in general though Armagh do tend to make things difficult for themselves. A win here and build a bit of momentum it should boost confidence in the camp, If this happens Armagh need to take a bigger scalp somewhere along the lines and they're capable of it too.
Quote from: illdecide on June 27, 2017, 09:59:23 AM
No disrespect to Westmeath but Armagh should be winning this with 4-5 pts to spare, in general though Armagh do tend to make things difficult for themselves. A win here and build a bit of momentum it should boost confidence in the camp, If this happens Armagh need to take a bigger scalp somewhere along the lines and they're capable of it too.
I'd say that this comment is exactly disrespectful to Westmeath. Saying you should win by 4-5 points is effectively implying that even if you have an off game then you still expect to win. If Armagh have an off day then they may well find it very difficult to win. Only Dublin can make claims like this (maybe Kerry).
Westmeath had a nightmare against Dublin but it is exactly disrespectful to dismiss them because of that one result. Player for player there would not be much in it. There are no players likely to be heading for an All-star in either team. On the day if things click for Westmeath they could easily come out winners. Just like Down v Monaghan.
I wouldn't be putting money on Armagh and I wouldn't be putting money on Westmeath either. But I would put money on Dublin to beat Kildare
Quote from: bennydorano on June 26, 2017, 04:47:34 PM
I'll be on holidays but I doubt it'll be the primary TV attraction anyway. Wexford v Monaghan will presumably by the choice?
Round 3A in the football qualifiers is on the 8th July I think and round 2 of the hurling qualifiers. Some potentially big games in both so I'd say no games will be shown from this side of the draw.
I'm not sure about Armagh winning by 4-5 points. With Armagh blowing hot and cold this year, and for a few years, we can't be expected to go to places like Mullingar and waltz out of it with a handy win. A 1 point win or taking Westmeath back home for a replay, I'd take that.
Quote from: PAULD123 on June 27, 2017, 10:28:07 AM
Quote from: illdecide on June 27, 2017, 09:59:23 AM
No disrespect to Westmeath but Armagh should be winning this with 4-5 pts to spare, in general though Armagh do tend to make things difficult for themselves. A win here and build a bit of momentum it should boost confidence in the camp, If this happens Armagh need to take a bigger scalp somewhere along the lines and they're capable of it too.
I'd say that this comment is exactly disrespectful to Westmeath. Saying you should win by 4-5 points is effectively implying that even if you have an off game then you still expect to win. If Armagh have an off day then they may well find it very difficult to win. Only Dublin can make claims like this (maybe Kerry).
Westmeath had a nightmare against Dublin but it is exactly disrespectful to dismiss them because of that one result. Player for player there would not be much in it. There are no players likely to be heading for an All-star in either team. On the day if things click for Westmeath they could easily come out winners. Just like Down v Monaghan.
I wouldn't be putting money on Armagh and I wouldn't be putting money on Westmeath either. But I would put money on Dublin to beat Kildare
It's only my opinion and i believe if both teams play to their best potential then I believe Armagh will win by 4-5pts. Of course Westmeath are capable of beating Armagh, one thing of being an Armagh supporter is to always expect the unexpected with them but we always dream anyway. If Westmeath were to beat Armagh it certainly won't go down as a shock but i believe we're a better team than what we're showing and a bit of bad luck and some inexperience has cost us in vital matches which hopefully we can learn from. No disrespect intended, they'll hardly have my post on the changing room wall saying "Look them Nordie Bastids don't f**king rate us, let's show illdecide we mean business"
The damage done by a walloping from Dublin cannot be underestimated unless the team and management are targeting the qualifiers from the beginning.
Good article about this from John Mac in today's Irish News.
Very few players at senior level will ever have experienced a 31 point defeat in their entire career either at club or county level. Westmeath will be demoralised and if they can turn this around in 13 days and beat Armagh then they will have displayed serious character. All things being equal this game would normally be in the balance but I don't know how the Westmeath players will manage to lift themselves to go training this week. I think Armagh should win this with a few points to spare though knowing this Armagh team and their ability to self destruct, I would never take it for granted.
The only variable there is that Westmeath will have been expecting a significant beating. They'll have hoped to keep it within 10 points and stick with Dublin for 40 or 50 minutes. But their approach meant, I'm sure, that they realised there was a chance of a battering if it went wrong. Their body language looked like that. They weren't thick or upset at how it was going. More deflated.
I'd say that would be an easier sell. It's not like they were beaten 15 points by Offaly after expecting to win.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
The only variable there is that Westmeath will have been expecting a significant beating. They'll have hoped to keep it within 10 points and stick with Dublin for 40 or 50 minutes. But their approach meant, I'm sure, that they realised there was a chance of a battering if it went wrong. Their body language looked like that. They weren't thick or upset at how it was going. More deflated.
I'd say that would be an easier sell. It's not like they were beaten 15 points by Offaly after expecting to win.
Leinster teams expect to get beaten by Dublin and while the margin turned out to be unusually large the result was expected. A much better Armagh team saw in 2008 who a team beaten by Dublin can get their mojo back. Armagh should win, on balance, but Westmeath may still be trying, whereas the likes of Leitrim would not.
If Armagh were efficient you would expect them to win. But Armagh are not efficient.
Live in the Athlone area and i know a few of the Westmeath lads. There are some lads the team and panel that shouldnt be a within an arses roar of a county panel. I expect Armagh to win by 6+ points and would be very surprised if they do not.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2017, 12:06:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
The only variable there is that Westmeath will have been expecting a significant beating. They'll have hoped to keep it within 10 points and stick with Dublin for 40 or 50 minutes. But their approach meant, I'm sure, that they realised there was a chance of a battering if it went wrong. Their body language looked like that. They weren't thick or upset at how it was going. More deflated.
I'd say that would be an easier sell. It's not like they were beaten 15 points by Offaly after expecting to win.
Leinster teams expect to get beaten by Dublin and while the margin turned out to be unusually large the result was expected. A much better Armagh team saw in 2008 who a team beaten by Dublin can get their mojo back. Armagh should win, on balance, but Westmeath may still be trying, whereas the likes of Leitrim would not.
Leitrim would give a similar amount of effort as this Westmeath team.
Quote from: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:44:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2017, 12:06:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
The only variable there is that Westmeath will have been expecting a significant beating. They'll have hoped to keep it within 10 points and stick with Dublin for 40 or 50 minutes. But their approach meant, I'm sure, that they realised there was a chance of a battering if it went wrong. Their body language looked like that. They weren't thick or upset at how it was going. More deflated.
I'd say that would be an easier sell. It's not like they were beaten 15 points by Offaly after expecting to win.
Leitrim would give a similar amount of effort as this Westmeath team.
Leinster teams expect to get beaten by Dublin and while the margin turned out to be unusually large the result was expected. A much better Armagh team saw in 2008 who a team beaten by Dublin can get their mojo back. Armagh should win, on balance, but Westmeath may still be trying, whereas the likes of Leitrim would not.
That was one of your most useful contributions, Syferus.
Is 2014 last time Armagh won 2 matches in a row in the championship?
Quote from: seafoid on June 27, 2017, 12:43:27 PM
If Armagh were efficient you would expect them to win. But Armagh are not efficient.
Would you even go as far to say, that they are inefficient?
Quote from: Orior on June 27, 2017, 05:24:40 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 27, 2017, 12:43:27 PM
If Armagh were efficient you would expect them to win. But Armagh are not efficient.
Would you even go as far to say, that they are inefficient?
I would just say McGeeney
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2017, 03:02:37 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 27, 2017, 01:44:33 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 27, 2017, 12:06:55 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 27, 2017, 11:42:03 AM
The only variable there is that Westmeath will have been expecting a significant beating. They'll have hoped to keep it within 10 points and stick with Dublin for 40 or 50 minutes. But their approach meant, I'm sure, that they realised there was a chance of a battering if it went wrong. Their body language looked like that. They weren't thick or upset at how it was going. More deflated.
I'd say that would be an easier sell. It's not like they were beaten 15 points by Offaly after expecting to win.
Leinster teams expect to get beaten by Dublin and while the margin turned out to be unusually large the result was expected. A much better Armagh team saw in 2008 who a team beaten by Dublin can get their mojo back. Armagh should win, on balance, but Westmeath may still be trying, whereas the likes of Leitrim would not.
Leitrim would give a similar amount of effort as this Westmeath team.
That was one of your most useful contributions, Syferus.
Thanks.
Is anyone aware of James Morgan's injury? and how long he's likely to be out for?
Guys do you think it's realistic to attend Celtic v Shamrock Rvs game next Sat (3:00pm kick off in Tallaght) and make it to Mullingar for Armagh game for 7:00 throw in? I know in normal circumstances it is but on match days and traffic is it realistic? (any of you guys know the craic getting out of Dublin and To Mullingar)
That sounds feasible Illdecide, assuming you'd be leaving Tallaght at 5ish, around the M50 to the M4 exit, then an hour to Mullingar.
Quote from: illdecide on June 29, 2017, 10:49:34 AM
Guys do you think it's realistic to attend Celtic v Shamrock Rvs game next Sat (3:00pm kick off in Tallaght) and make it to Mullingar for Armagh game for 7:00 throw in? I know in normal circumstances it is but on match days and traffic is it realistic? (any of you guys know the craic getting out of Dublin and To Mullingar)
Soccer game would be over at 5pm and it should not take more than an Hour and a half to get to Mullingar. You'll be grand! At worst if you are very unlucky you'd miss 10 minutes of the Gaelic Match.
Quote from: illdecide on June 29, 2017, 10:49:34 AM
Guys do you think it's realistic to attend Celtic v Shamrock Rvs game next Sat (3:00pm kick off in Tallaght) and make it to Mullingar for Armagh game for 7:00 throw in? I know in normal circumstances it is but on match days and traffic is it realistic? (any of you guys know the craic getting out of Dublin and To Mullingar)
You'll make it comfortably. From a Mullingar man living in Dublin.
Cheers...might as well do both.
I'm hoping to get 18 holes of golf in Belfast on Saturday morning , before driving down. Can everyone else just keep out of my way?
Quote from: illdecide on June 28, 2017, 02:13:32 PM
Is anyone aware of James Morgan's injury? and how long he's likely to be out for?
Knee ligament
He is pushing but medical team more cautious
On this note feel for dyas his knee is fine
But keeps getting calf twinges etc
Would like be to see him in the panel kicking on
Quote from: Orior on June 29, 2017, 09:06:12 PM
I'm hoping to get 18 holes of golf in Belfast on Saturday morning , before driving down. Can everyone else just keep out of my way?
Who do you think you are, the Orange Order? ;D
40 mins from M4 junction to Mullingar going at legal speed
watch out for the boys in blue with the speed gun at the Killucan exit
Question - If the game happened to be on Sky next Saturday, could I watch that on my Skygo app in Spain, assuming the wifi is good enough, or do they nobble it some way cos you're abroad?
Is your phone connection related to the goodness or otherwise of your wife?
Her influence knows no bounds :P
Does anyone know if it is handier to go to Mullingar from Belfast via Dublin (via the M1 and M4), or go cross country (on the N33 and N52)?
Quote from: Orior on July 03, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
Does anyone know if it is handier to go to Mullingar from Belfast via Dublin (via the M1 and M4), or go cross country (on the N33 and N52)?
You'll save maybe 20 mins going cross country. If you're not in a hurry then go via Dublin. N52 is a pain.
Quote from: bennydorano on July 01, 2017, 01:47:51 PM
Question - If the game happened to be on Sky next Saturday, could I watch that on my Skygo app in Spain, assuming the wifi is good enough, or do they nobble it some way cos you're abroad?
You need a VPN to make SKY think you are still in UK. Get this one on trial and then cancel when you get home.
https://www.vpncompare.co.uk/how-to-watch-sky-sports-abroad/ (https://www.vpncompare.co.uk/how-to-watch-sky-sports-abroad/)
https://www.expressvpn.com (https://www.expressvpn.com)
It is simple. Also use it to watch TdF on Eurosport.
Quote from: Orior on July 03, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
Does anyone know if it is handier to go to Mullingar from Belfast via Dublin (via the M1 and M4), or go cross country (on the N33 and N52)?
Ardee, Kells and Delvin is best
Quote from: illdecide on July 04, 2017, 11:21:14 AM
Quote from: Orior on July 03, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
Does anyone know if it is handier to go to Mullingar from Belfast via Dublin (via the M1 and M4), or go cross country (on the N33 and N52)?
Ardee, Kells and Delvin is best
Hmmm, is this a clever ruse to keep me away from the road that you will be taking?
Quote from: Orior on July 04, 2017, 12:33:42 PM
Quote from: illdecide on July 04, 2017, 11:21:14 AM
Quote from: Orior on July 03, 2017, 11:00:29 PM
Does anyone know if it is handier to go to Mullingar from Belfast via Dublin (via the M1 and M4), or go cross country (on the N33 and N52)?
Ardee, Kells and Delvin is best
Hmmm, is this a clever ruse to keep me away from the road that you will be taking?
You're just too smart...Yes, I don't want you on my road
Can't believe how quiet it is on here, I think both teams have been burnt that much the supporters know now not to expect much as you usually end up getting the opposite...
Anyway i do believe Armagh are slightly better than Westmeath but Westmeath are fairly strong at home and for me that put's both teams around level par, should be tight but expect Armagh to win by 3-4pts.
Shark is there anywhere handy to for me and the cub for food between Dublin and Mullingar (if i've time), I'd imagine Mullingar will be chaos so maybe out the road a bit?
Quote from: illdecide on July 04, 2017, 04:14:43 PM
Can't believe how quiet it is on here, I think both teams have been burnt that much the supporters know now not to expect much as you usually end up getting the opposite...
Anyway i do believe Armagh are slightly better than Westmeath but Westmeath are fairly strong at home and for me that put's both teams around level par, should be tight but expect Armagh to win by 3-4pts.
Shark is there anywhere handy to for me and the cub for food between Dublin and Mullingar (if i've time), I'd imagine Mullingar will be chaos so maybe out the road a bit?
There's a Burger King in the motorway service station at Enfield, which would suit if you're stuck for time. Or you could roll back the years and pull in to Harrys in Kinnegad like many a man used to do on the road to and from Dublin.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 04, 2017, 04:32:04 PM
Quote from: illdecide on July 04, 2017, 04:14:43 PM
Can't believe how quiet it is on here, I think both teams have been burnt that much the supporters know now not to expect much as you usually end up getting the opposite...
Anyway i do believe Armagh are slightly better than Westmeath but Westmeath are fairly strong at home and for me that put's both teams around level par, should be tight but expect Armagh to win by 3-4pts.
Shark is there anywhere handy to for me and the cub for food between Dublin and Mullingar (if i've time), I'd imagine Mullingar will be chaos so maybe out the road a bit?
There's a Burger King in the motorway service station at Enfield, which would suit if you're stuck for time. Or you could roll back the years and pull in to Harrys in Kinnegad like many a man used to do on the road to and from Dublin.
Bridge House in Enfield does a good feed. There's a middling at best carvery at the Applegreen mentioned above but you save time.
The Roadhouse on N6 did good food but think you cannot cross road now westbound. Mary Lynch's in Coralstown perhaps?
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 27, 2017, 01:15:42 PM
Live in the Athlone area and i know a few of the Westmeath lads. There are some lads the team and panel that shouldnt be a within an arses roar of a county panel. I expect Armagh to win by 6+ points and would be very surprised if they do not.
Westmeath may not have big strength in depth but they have some fantastic players. I'd take Heslin, Martin, Sharry, Maguire among others on to a Mayo starting 15.
What got hidden in Westmeath's defeat to Dublin amid Gavin's nonsense rant was that Westmeath - collectively and individually - put in an absolutely brutal performance. Yes, Dublin were terrific but every Westmeath player should have hung their heads in shame at their lack of conviction, drive, energy, etc when things were going so badly against them - and that donkey of a manager they have should have resigned on the spot for sending out such an ill-prepared team.
The best result for long term betterment of Westmeath football would be a 7-8 point defeat with no structure, organisation, tactics etc so that manager would go. However, I think there is enough leadership and pride in Martin, Heslin and co that they will actually put in a decent performance, play to potential and win
Think Armagh have the bit between their teeth and will pull through this.
As I said before this will be a tough game
But just feel that Armagh have a date later on this summer with the mourne men
Quote from: naka on July 04, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
Think Armagh have the bit between their teeth and will pull through this.
As I said before this will be a tough game
But just feel that Armagh have a date later on this summer with the mourne men
So its Down in the next round then. What's that based on?
Quote from: LCohen on July 04, 2017, 07:02:27 PM
Quote from: naka on July 04, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
Think Armagh have the bit between their teeth and will pull through this.
As I said before this will be a tough game
But just feel that Armagh have a date later on this summer with the mourne men
So its Down in the next round then. What's that based on?
Armagh beating Westmeath, Down losing to Tyrone. And then both teams drawn to play each other, maybe?
Quote from: BennyCake on July 04, 2017, 07:15:52 PM
Quote from: LCohen on July 04, 2017, 07:02:27 PM
Quote from: naka on July 04, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
Think Armagh have the bit between their teeth and will pull through this.
As I said before this will be a tough game
But just feel that Armagh have a date later on this summer with the mourne men
So its Down in the next round then. What's that based on?
Armagh beating Westmeath, Down losing to Tyrone. And then both teams drawn to play each other, maybe?
You need to win your next two games to be able to play us again. And even then I think that we will not be drawn against either Armagh or Monaghan where possible?
I'm wary about this game. I think we should win but I just don't know how Westmeath will react.
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 04, 2017, 09:50:01 PM
I'm wary about this game. I think we should win but I just don't know how Westmeath will react.
I don't think we will win. Westmeath are better than what they showed v Dublin.
Quote from: LCohen on July 04, 2017, 07:02:27 PM
Quote from: naka on July 04, 2017, 06:53:37 PM
Think Armagh have the bit between their teeth and will pull through this.
As I said before this will be a tough game
But just feel that Armagh have a date later on this summer with the mourne men
So its Down in the next round then. What's that based on?
Nope down on 30 July
Quote from: blast05 on July 04, 2017, 05:59:24 PM
Quote from: oliverkelly on June 27, 2017, 01:15:42 PM
Live in the Athlone area and i know a few of the Westmeath lads. There are some lads the team and panel that shouldnt be a within an arses roar of a county panel. I expect Armagh to win by 6+ points and would be very surprised if they do not.
Westmeath may not have big strength in depth but they have some fantastic players. I'd take Heslin, Martin, Sharry, Maguire among others on to a Mayo starting 15.
What got hidden in Westmeath's defeat to Dublin amid Gavin's nonsense rant was that Westmeath - collectively and individually - put in an absolutely brutal performance. Yes, Dublin were terrific but every Westmeath player should have hung their heads in shame at their lack of conviction, drive, energy, etc when things were going so badly against them - and that donkey of a manager they have should have resigned on the spot for sending out such an ill-prepared team.
The best result for long term betterment of Westmeath football would be a 7-8 point defeat with no structure, organisation, tactics etc so that manager would go. However, I think there is enough leadership and pride in Martin, Heslin and co that they will actually put in a decent performance, play to potential and win
Apart from Heslin the one player your team needs the most would be Ger Egan. Plays midfield for us due to our dearth of options there but would be a savage wing forward in the Galvin/Dooher/Flynn mould. Unbelievable engine and a good long range scorer.
I'm cutting Cribbin some slack for the Dublin no show, it was the players who wanted to have a go after playing it tight for the last two years. Although he should have known better and either changed the kickouts or taken off Quinn when it was going pear shaped. I don't agree that getting rid of Cribbin would be the answer to our prayers however, we have only lost to Dublin in Leinster under his management and we all know the Goliath they are now, we've made Leinster finals back to back for the first time in our history, only our 4th and 5th ever. We've being coming out the right side of tight championship games for the first time since 06 so have to credit him with that. Tactically wise I feel he could do with some more help, he's got really good S&C, nutrition, performance people in there, just needs a Jim McGuinness who is focused on tactics and coaching.
The 2 weeks from the Dublin game is huge, it's still fresh in our minds but enough time to digest it and come again at it. A week would have killed our chances so I agree with you that we'll put in a performance and should win. Here's hoping.
What would be the best radio station to pick up the game Saturday evening via Internet?
I'm sure it's on Midlands 103
SKY showing the hurling qualifier on Saturday.
I fancy WH for this one.
Home crowd, tight pitch, smarting after Dublin so nothing to lose.
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 06, 2017, 12:37:24 PM
I fancy WH for this one.
Home crowd, tight pitch, smarting after Dublin so nothing to lose.
I think their drubbing against Dublin won't be a huge factor as the players themselves decided to give it a lash and see what happens. If they'd went hammer and tongs to stay as close to Dublin as possible with a specific defensive system then, yeah, a 30 point stuffing would be catastrophic. However, their mindset going in and the two week break leave them a dangerous prospect when added to the factors above.
Armagh are no great shakes either
Sort of game that could be decided by home advantage.I would make Westmeath slight favourites
It's a game that will be decided by the start. If Westmeath start well and get into the game I expect it will be tight and in Martin and Heslin have 2 forwards who'll cause us real problems. If we go out strong I would think that WM might crumble as their confidence will be flaky early on. Home advantage will help them a lot though we have done well away from home this year. I think we will win but it could be a 1-2 point struggle or a 10-12 point canter depending on the start
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 06, 2017, 01:18:27 PM
Quote from: Shamrock Shore on July 06, 2017, 12:37:24 PM
I fancy WH for this one.
Home crowd, tight pitch, smarting after Dublin so nothing to lose.
I think their drubbing against Dublin won't be a huge factor as the players themselves decided to give it a lash and see what happens. If they'd went hammer and tongs to stay as close to Dublin as possible with a specific defensive system then, yeah, a 30 point stuffing would be catastrophic. However, their mindset going in and the two week break leave them a dangerous prospect when added to the factors above.
Would agree with that. I don't see the drubbing they got as being relevant. They knew the risk they were taking, that they would lose and that they would end up here.
Armagh should win. We have the better player even if Westmeath have a few stars.
No idea how this one will go. Don't know much about Westmeath but suspect they will want to restore a bit of pride after the last game. Armagh are as flaky as hell, so hard to know if we will start well or just sleepwalk through the first half until we realise there's a game on and it's a bit too late.
1 Blaine Hughes an Chrupain
2 Aaron Mc Kay Dromainn Ti
3 Charlie Vernon Cláirsigh Ard Mhacha
4 Paul Hughes Raonaithe na Croise
5 Aidan Forker An Machaire
6 Brendan Donaghy Cluain Mhor
7 James Morgan Raonaithe na Croise
8 Stephen Sheridan Foirceal
9 Niall Grimley Na Madáin
10 Ciaran O'Hanlon Cill Shleibhe
11 Anthony Duffy Na Piarsaigh Óga
12 Rory Grugan Baile Mhic an Aba
13 Jamie Clarke Raonaithe na Croise
14 Andrew Murnin Naomh Pol
15 Gavin McParland Baile Mhic an Aba
Quote from: seafoid on July 06, 2017, 01:22:12 PM
Armagh are no great shakes either
Correct captain obvious. ::)
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 06, 2017, 10:31:03 PM
1 Blaine Hughes an Chrupain
2 Aaron Mc Kay Dromainn Ti
3 Charlie Vernon Cláirsigh Ard Mhacha
4 Paul Hughes Raonaithe na Croise
5 Aidan Forker An Machaire
6 Brendan Donaghy Cluain Mhor
7 James Morgan Raonaithe na Croise
8 Stephen Sheridan Foirceal
9 Niall Grimley Na Madáin
10 Ciaran O'Hanlon Cill Shleibhe
11 Anthony Duffy Na Piarsaigh Óga
12 Rory Grugan Baile Mhic an Aba
13 Jamie Clarke Raonaithe na Croise
14 Andrew Murnin Naomh Pol
15 Gavin McParland Baile Mhic an Aba
Usual pinch of salt to any named team.
Morgan has to be an injury doubt with Shields the favourite to replace him. Any of Rafferty, Campbell and O'Neill could feature
Happy enough where Armagh are
If we lose then it's cos players aren't good enough
For me Just have the feeling we will be there later in the summer
Quote from: naka on July 06, 2017, 10:52:44 PM
Happy enough where Armagh are
If we lose then it's cos players aren't good enough
For me Just have the feeling we will be there later in the summer
If Armagh lose it may not be cos the players are not good enough it took Kildare several years to recover .
don't know why lads rate Sharry
he slows down the play too much, usually gives a slow lateral hand pass after deciding for 10 seconds what to do with the ball
and he fancies himself way too much
Darren Quinn;
Mark McCallon, Kevin Maguire, Jamie Gonoud;
David Lynch, Frank Boyle, James Dolan;
Paul Sharry, Ger Egan;
John Egan, Kieran Martin, Sam Duncan;
Kelvin Reilly, John Heslin, Killian Daly
If that team starts I wouldn't be optimistic about our chances. Quinn's head can't be right after the kick outs the last day, Duncan hasn't seen one minute of pitch time this year, Reilly didn't do enough with all the chances he's got this year and Daly is a defensive liability. See Shane Dempsey has throw his hat at it too as not on the bench.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 07, 2017, 10:09:49 AM
Darren Quinn;
Mark McCallon, Kevin Maguire, Jamie Gonoud;
David Lynch, Frank Boyle, James Dolan;
Paul Sharry, Ger Egan;
John Egan, Kieran Martin, Sam Duncan;
Kelvin Reilly, John Heslin, Killian Daly
If that team starts I wouldn't be optimistic about our chances. Quinn's head can't be right after the kick outs the last day, Duncan hasn't seen one minute of pitch time this year, Reilly didn't do enough with all the chances he's got this year and Daly is a defensive liability. See Shane Dempsey has throw his hat at it too as not on the bench.
Here's an idea - play him at left corner forward. Hey presto - problem solved!
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 07, 2017, 10:09:49 AM
Darren Quinn;
Mark McCallon, Kevin Maguire, Jamie Gonoud;
David Lynch, Frank Boyle, James Dolan;
Paul Sharry, Ger Egan;
John Egan, Kieran Martin, Sam Duncan;
Kelvin Reilly, John Heslin, Killian Daly
If that team starts I wouldn't be optimistic about our chances. Quinn's head can't be right after the kick outs the last day, Duncan hasn't seen one minute of pitch time this year, Reilly didn't do enough with all the chances he's got this year and Daly is a defensive liability. See Shane Dempsey has throw his hat at it too as not on the bench.
Here's an idea - play him at left corner forward. Hey presto - problem solved!
I've a better idea, leave him on the bench where he deserves to be. I rarely buy into cases of managers having favourites but in this case...
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 07, 2017, 10:09:49 AM
Darren Quinn;
Mark McCallon, Kevin Maguire, Jamie Gonoud;
David Lynch, Frank Boyle, James Dolan;
Paul Sharry, Ger Egan;
John Egan, Kieran Martin, Sam Duncan;
Kelvin Reilly, John Heslin, Killian Daly
If that team starts I wouldn't be optimistic about our chances. Quinn's head can't be right after the kick outs the last day, Duncan hasn't seen one minute of pitch time this year, Reilly didn't do enough with all the chances he's got this year and Daly is a defensive liability. See Shane Dempsey has throw his hat at it too as not on the bench.
Here's an idea - play him at left corner forward. Hey presto - problem solved!
He's a good footballer, but he never was and never will be a corner back.
Quote from: shark on July 07, 2017, 10:30:58 AM
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 10:22:00 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 07, 2017, 10:09:49 AM
Darren Quinn;
Mark McCallon, Kevin Maguire, Jamie Gonoud;
David Lynch, Frank Boyle, James Dolan;
Paul Sharry, Ger Egan;
John Egan, Kieran Martin, Sam Duncan;
Kelvin Reilly, John Heslin, Killian Daly
If that team starts I wouldn't be optimistic about our chances. Quinn's head can't be right after the kick outs the last day, Duncan hasn't seen one minute of pitch time this year, Reilly didn't do enough with all the chances he's got this year and Daly is a defensive liability. See Shane Dempsey has throw his hat at it too as not on the bench.
Here's an idea - play him at left corner forward. Hey presto - problem solved!
He's a good footballer, but he never was and never will be a corner back.
Agreed Shark, that much was obvious 3 years ago. Outrageous that he is still put in there on the likes of Con O'Callaghan and O'Gara.
There was an error with the subs listed so Dempsey may still be in there, should find out later.
I know this might sound silly but Armagh having a few big guns coming off the bench could be the game changer here, I know you should always start with your strongest team and KMcG has obviously went with the 15 men he believes is on form but for me if Westmeath start to tire and we introduce S Campbell and M Shields it would be some lift of pace and quality to Armagh
Quote from: illdecide on July 07, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
I know this might sound silly but Armagh having a few big guns coming off the bench could be the game changer here, I know you should always start with your strongest team and KMcG has obviously went with the 15 men he believes is on form but for me if Westmeath start to tire and we introduce S Campbell and M Shields it would be some lift of pace and quality to Armagh
Stefan carrying an injury?
If driving in from Delvin or Dublin, where should I park?
I don't mind walking and would want to get away quickly (after we've secured a handy win).
Is match parking well signposted?
Ahem, there is nothing on the Westmeath website which is any help to travelling fans.
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
If driving in from Delvin or Dublin, where should I park?
I don't mind walking and would want to get away quickly (after we've secured a handy win).
Is match parking well signposted?
Ahem, there is nothing on the Westmeath website which is any help to travelling fans.
Mullingar Shamrocks off the Delvin road will look after your banger. Tunnel under the canal and you'll avoid all the traffic in town.
Quote from: naka on July 06, 2017, 10:52:44 PM
Happy enough where Armagh are
If we lose then it's cos players aren't good enough
For me Just have the feeling we will be there later in the summer
So before the game you are saying no matter what happens in the game it will be the players fault for not being good enough. Strange
It's going to be a high scoring shootout with the best forward line on the day winning this game i reckon.
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
If driving in from Delvin or Dublin, where should I park?
I don't mind walking and would want to get away quickly (after we've secured a handy win).
Is match parking well signposted?
Ahem, there is nothing on the Westmeath website which is any help to travelling fans.
Why not change the plan and play the golf in Mullingar? You could get fed and get parked into the bargain.
Armagh to win.We always play well when there's a big Dunnes Store behind the goalposts
Quote from: LCohen on July 07, 2017, 10:34:54 PM
Quote from: naka on July 06, 2017, 10:52:44 PM
Happy enough where Armagh are
If we lose then it's cos players aren't good enough
For me Just have the feeling we will be there later in the summer
So before the game you are saying no matter what happens in the game it will be the players fault for not being good enough. Strange
Funnily enough team picked on form
If they are not good enough so be it
We are continually told that this team has talent so it's up to them to show it
I am sick of people coming up with excuses for us losing
So yes this is their third biggest test of the year having failed in the Tipp and Down games
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 07, 2017, 03:39:47 PM
Quote from: illdecide on July 07, 2017, 03:00:44 PM
I know this might sound silly but Armagh having a few big guns coming off the bench could be the game changer here, I know you should always start with your strongest team and KMcG has obviously went with the 15 men he believes is on form but for me if Westmeath start to tire and we introduce S Campbell and M Shields it would be some lift of pace and quality to Armagh
Stefan carrying an injury?
No, not as far as i know. He could well start though as KMcG often changes the team before throw in.
Is it a sell out? Or is there still tickets available? Just ended up with 2 stand tickets last night so now have an adult terrace & juvenile ticket spare if anyone needs them?
Quote from: Orior on July 07, 2017, 05:24:45 PM
If driving in from Delvin or Dublin, where should I park?
I don't mind walking and would want to get away quickly (after we've secured a handy win).
Is match parking well signposted?
Ahem, there is nothing on the Westmeath website which is any help to travelling fans.
park at Loreto college or Blackhall car park
lots of nice pubs and restaurants in the town
chippers aplenty too
stroll down to the ground.
don't be in.a huge rush home
or park in shamrocks and get outta there asap
Nice evening for it.
Black card for Jamie, big loss for Geezer's men!!
Clarke black card is not what we call a good omen
Morgan a black card as well
Referee is rank.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2017, 07:43:53 PM
Referee is rank.
How do useless refs like this guy get games at this level, we are deservedly down to 14 men.
Listening to midlands radio. Unbelievable stuff. Are these people for real?
Jesus, Armagh must be properly shite..
Quote from: LCohen on July 08, 2017, 08:26:53 PM
Listening to midlands radio. Unbelievable stuff. Are these people for real?
Some commentary. It's like listening to Chemical Ali.
40 frees conceded by Armagh (according to Midlands 103)
Wahaay.
Now all we need to do is not let them anywhere the middle of our defence, pull the feckers down if you have to but do not concede a goal.
Jaysus that goals a relief
Well done Armagh, played a man down for 20 minutes and got the win, Rthan Rafferty needs to start, Grimley was again top class and we took our chances when Westmeath did not.
I will take Carlow or Tipp, Monaghan will beat us handily enough and I cant wait for Mondays draw.
Stew, did you watch the game or listen to it on Midlands 103, as I did? Was it as brutal an affair as the match commentators indicated? And what happened in the stands that warranted intervention by the Garda?
Lovely warm evening. Not much discipline on either side, pernickety ref, poor shooting by Westmeath near the end and good spirit by Armagh to get the scores at the end.
Not much chance of beating a good team.
I listened to that on radio in Spain on Midlands radio. Are them boys for real?
Quote from: bennydorano on July 08, 2017, 08:56:15 PM
I listened to that on radio in Spain on Midlands radio. Are them boys for real?
Define real when it comes to local radio GAA commentators.
Well done to Armagh, handy enough in the end.
Quote from: stew on July 08, 2017, 08:46:32 PM
I will take Carlow or Tipp, Monaghan will beat us handily enough and I cant wait for Mondays draw.
You can have Tipp and we'll take Carlow.
Armagh win two games in a row!
Quote from: Syferus on July 08, 2017, 08:34:36 PM
Jesus, Armagh must be properly shite..
Tbf
Jamie black card
James a black card
And Gregory mc cabe a red card
We did alright
Am more than happy with the result
If McCabe's not back for the next round we're bucked tho
Quote from: bennydorano on July 08, 2017, 08:56:15 PM
I listened to that on radio in Spain on Midlands radio. Are them boys for real?
They are as bad as I have ever heard Benny, at one point yer man had us down by two points when the scores were level, the commentary was to say the least, terrible, to say the worst, atrocious!
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 08, 2017, 08:53:39 PM
Stew, did you watch the game or listen to it on Midlands 103, as I did? Was it as brutal an affair as the match commentators indicated? And what happened in the stands that warranted intervention by the Garda?
I had to listen to it, my partners for the day decided at the last minute not to go.
Stew, are you back home? Envy you. You'll be off to the next match, right?
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 08, 2017, 09:06:36 PM
Armagh win two games in a row!
And 3 men are sent to the line, none of them called Forker.
Quote from: Main Street on July 08, 2017, 09:03:48 PM
Quote from: bennydorano on July 08, 2017, 08:56:15 PM
I listened to that on radio in Spain on Midlands radio. Are them boys for real?
Define real when it comes to local radio GAA commentators.
Well done to Armagh, handy enough in the end.
Quote from: stew on July 08, 2017, 08:46:32 PM
I will take Carlow or Tipp, Monaghan will beat us handily enough and I cant wait for Mondays draw.
You can have Tipp and we'll take Carlow.
I wouldn't mind Tipp because we owe them one as we got sucker punched at the death in the league game last league season.
Obviously I want Carlow.
Good one, armaghniac, though to listen to the radio announcers, Forker should be in line for the Mayweather-McGregor winner.
I think we are stuck with Geezer for another two years now no matter what happens the next day.
Quote from: stew on July 08, 2017, 09:30:32 PM
I think we are stuck with Geezer for another two years now no matter what happens the next day.
Truly a pyrrhic victory
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 08, 2017, 09:29:38 PM
Good one, armaghniac, though to listen to the radio announcers, Forker should be in line for the Mayweather-McGregor winner.
he was clearly slabbering and pushing and shoving. He's a good player, he made a useful contribution near the end both in a timely interception in the defence and taking the point, if only he'd stay on the field.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 08, 2017, 10:56:48 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on July 08, 2017, 09:29:38 PM
Good one, armaghniac, though to listen to the radio announcers, Forker should be in line for the Mayweather-McGregor winner.
he was clearly slabbering and pushing and shoving. He's a good player, he made a useful contribution near the end both in a timely interception in the defence and taking the point, if only he'd stay on the field.
He did stay on the field
Didn't see what Clarke done. Nor Morgan. McCabe was definitely a black card. Ref poor. Very inconsistent. We done well with the win but 5 points probably not a fair reflection. Westmeath had some poor wides. I'd be raging at the players if I was a Westmeath fan. The effort hey put in today compared to Dublin wasn't good. Also some of their antics today were bad. Overall happy to get away with the win. Thought we just about deserved it. Onwards we go
From the rte report
"In a sensational start to the game, Armagh's ace attacker Jamie Clarke was black-carded for dragging back Jamie Ginoud after just 15 seconds."
;D
That must be the fastest black card ever.
The most ill tempered game involving Armagh since Ulster Final replay against Tyrone in 05.We got out of jail,Westmeath kicked themselves out of it after Mc Cabe's sending off,also Armagh's goal was a complete giveaway by Westmeath.
Anybody know what happened in the stands?
Quote from: T Fearon on July 08, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
The most ill tempered game involving Armagh since Ulster Final replay against Tyrone in 05.
Very very debatable.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 08, 2017, 11:39:44 PMWe got out of jail,Westmeath kicked themselves out of it after Mc Cabe's sending off,also Armagh's goal was a complete giveaway by Westmeath.
Westmeath missed half a dozen scoreable chances at the end.
TBH with 10 mins to go i could only see one winner and it wasn't Armagh but Westmeath kicked 2-3 wides that were handy enough and Armagh punished them. Armagh seemed to have to work a lot harder for their free's and on one occasion i swore he blew for a foul before the tackle was made, I genuinley believe the Ref wouldn't have taken action against some of the Westmeath players if it wasn't for the crowd shaming him into it. Armagh's bench seems to be winning them the games as they seem a lot better than the men starting and introduced at the right times they're getting Armagh over the line.
Jamie's black card was prob deserved but the shock of it after a few seconds was hard to take, James Morgan's was deserved too as his job was clearly to man mark midfielder and mark him he did...literally. Took my eye of the ball for the sending off so wasn't too sure if it was deserved not. Both teams were pulling and dragging and football quality wasn't good but it still had you on the edge of your seat
Just home.
A great day out, over 5,000 at the match (seemed more to me) and Armagh fans must outnumbered the Westmeath fans by 3 to 1.
The referee had a bad day. Jamie shouldered the Westmeath player after the ball had gone, and the linesman called the ref over and got him black carded. Some might say that the linesman hadn't a baldy clue.
I thought really exciting match. Westmeath missed a bucket load of decent scoring chances, and whilst Armagh did at time over elaborate, they were trying to keep possession until a decent opening occurred.
Lots of good performaances all over the field, but Oisin's point was superb.
No idea what happened in stand.
As usual Armagh found it difficult to play against a packed defence. The back cards and frustration with officials seemed to lead to confusion in how to play among the Armagh players. Westmeath kicked themselves out of it.
As bad as I have seen Armagh play in a while Rafferty and O'Neill made a difference when they came on.
GAA football is in trouble if refereeing like this continues. If matches like Kerry v Dublin or Monaghan v Down were refereed like that there would be a riot. I have no idea what Clarke or Morgan got black carded for as I did not see incidents. The Armagh player who got sent off should have got a yellow and black instead of 2 yellows. I felt the black card given to the Westmeath player was a yellow. It also looked like his replacement was allowed on before the next break in play. Also, how the Westmeath player who cleaned Grimley out after he made the pass for the goal did not get booked I will never know. And is Heslin not allowed to get booked? Worst of all though is inconsistency.
I am glad Armagh win as I can not be accused of soar grapes😀
The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense
Win is a win for Armagh but made hard work of it against a very poorly coached Westmeath team. Need to improve by 50% to beat Monaghan or Tipperary.
Quote from: illdecide on July 08, 2017, 11:56:15 PM
TBH with 10 mins to go i could only see one winner and it wasn't Armagh but Westmeath kicked 2-3 wides that were handy enough and Armagh punished them. Armagh seemed to have to work a lot harder for their free's and on one occasion i swore he blew for a foul before the tackle was made, I genuinley believe the Ref wouldn't have taken action against some of the Westmeath players if it wasn't for the crowd shaming him into it. Armagh's bench seems to be winning them the games as they seem a lot better than the men starting and introduced at the right times they're getting Armagh over the line.
Jamie's black card was prob deserved but the shock of it after a few seconds was hard to take, James Morgan's was deserved too as his job was clearly to man mark midfielder and mark him he did...literally. Took my eye of the ball for the sending off so wasn't too sure if it was deserved not. Both teams were pulling and dragging and football quality wasn't good but it still had you on the edge of your seat
McCabes was the only one o can say for certain was a definite black card. He swiped at the players feet with his hands. Definitely black
Quote from: T Fearon on July 09, 2017, 12:13:47 AM
The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense
Tony. What did you do?
Quote from: Throw ball on July 08, 2017, 11:57:41 PM
The Armagh player who got sent off should have got a yellow and black instead of 2 yellows.
Hand trip, black card.
Quote from: Throw ball on July 08, 2017, 11:57:41 PMI felt the black card given to the Westmeath player was a yellow.
Also clear enough black in my opinion, man deliberately brought to ground.
The 5000 attendance is very suspect, the place was full. What is the capacity?
It also looked like his replacement was allowed on before the next break in play. Also, how the Westmeath player who cleaned Grimley out after he made the pass for the goal did not get booked I will never know. And is Heslin not allowed to get booked? Worst of all though is inconsistency.
I am glad Armagh win as I can not be accused of soar grapes😀
[/quote]
Did anyone else see Jamie come out onto the pitch before the warm-up? I reckon he couldn't get a signal in the changing rooms, and he wanted to text his mate to say that he would be attending the Coldplay concert after all.
Armagh were cynical all through. On and off the ball. The amount of intimidation, aggressive pulling and dragging of players with no ball within 100 yards was shocking. Officials let Armagh with far too much and did not have control.
Westmeath threw it away though at the death with bad wides from frees and play.
And I'm neutral!
Quote from: T Fearon on July 09, 2017, 12:13:47 AM
The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense
A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge. Some Armagh fans didn't cover themselves in glory after that abusing players and officials and using foul language. The Westmeath subs bench took exception to some of the things said and hurled abuse at the offending Armagh supporters. After the goal a different Armagh supporter turned round to taunt the Westmeath bench who threw water over him and began to threaten him. Very unedifying for all involved.
Quote from: Catch and Kick on July 09, 2017, 01:30:58 AM
Armagh were cynical all through. On and off the ball. The amount of intimidation, aggressive pulling and dragging of players with no ball within 100 yards was shocking. Officials let Armagh with far too much and did not have control.
Westmeath threw it away though at the death with bad wides from frees and play.
And I'm neutral!
I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end
Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.
And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.
In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.
The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.
The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.
Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.
If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.
The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.
Quote from: Orior on July 08, 2017, 11:57:10 PM
Just home.
A great day out, over 5,000 at the match (seemed more to me) and Armagh fans must outnumbered the Westmeath fans by 3 to 1.
The referee had a bad day. Jamie shouldered the Westmeath player after the ball had gone, and the linesman called the ref over and got him black carded. Some might say that the linesman hadn't a baldy clue.
I thought really exciting match. Westmeath missed a bucket load of decent scoring chances, and whilst Armagh did at time over elaborate, they were trying to keep possession until a decent opening occurred.
Lots of good performaances all over the field, but Oisin's point was superb.
Didn'the see the game or the incident so only commenting on what you have said. but aren't you describing a player being taken-out off the ball after the ball has been played away, which is a black card offence?
Or was the ball cleared way up the pitch?
Quote from: David McKeown on July 09, 2017, 01:35:56 AM
A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge.
You forgot to mention how it was off the ball, and how Clarke continued to pull out of Gonoud while he was on the ground, in case he planned on getting up and supporting the Westmeath man in possession. Nobody except the most one-eyed of Armagh supporters could say anything else. Not a single dissenting voice in the press box at the time, from Armagh, Westmeath, or neutrals - he had to go.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 09, 2017, 01:38:43 AM
I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end
Deserved winners, yes. The rest of that is daft. Firstly, they committed 19 fouls in the first half and 20 in the second. 18 personals in each - that's not reduction by my maths. And harshly treated would suggest unwarranted cards - there wasn't a single card Armagh got that could be remotely disputed, and there were at least ten more that could have been awarded along with it. For one example, not one free was given for late tackle all game, and it quickly became apparent to me that it was a team tactic to hit after the ball was gone. At one stage I counted five late hits in four minutes, none penalised.
Again, I have no axe to grind here, and the handful or Armagh folk I know are good GAA people that I'd have a lot of time for. I've always enjoyed watching them play, but in all my time going to games professionally and socially, I've never seen anything like what went on tonight.
It has been obvious for a long time that Armagh tackling is at best sloppy, sometimes reckless and rarely enough precise. It isn't something that can be worked on in a week, but it is a problem. For instance, Down were noticeably more disciplined. When there is good work it is often undone by someone then flapping at an attacker and giving away a free.
That said Clarke is surely more sinned against, on balance, and other refs did not give him much protection. Perhaps there was some sort of intention to stop Westmeath getting off to a good start and he lost the plot.
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 01:47:20 AM
Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.
And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.
In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.
The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.
The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.
Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.
If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.
The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.
This is nowhere near a neutral report. Three black cards and one red. Sure don't mention that one of the black cards and the red were the same person.
No mention of weetmeaths cynical play. Their drag downs. Late hits. Blocks of the ball. Their play acting. Their trying to influence the referee and linesmen. Or their two black cards and what could have and should have been more.
And I hate to tell you this but Armagh won the game
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 01:47:20 AM
Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.
And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.
In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.
The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.
The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.
Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.
If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.
The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.
Agree 100%. Was amazed what was let go.
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
I seem to recall Kildare blaming refs all the time also under mcgeeney management. Dublin beat that westmeath team by 31 points. The draw for the next round will be interesting. If you avoid Monaghan and get past Tipp you could be playing Down again as Down can't draw Monaghan. That's if Down lose Ulster final. Qualifiers are very poorly organised this group a and b is a terrible idea. Just leads to a bigger chance of teams who have met previously to meet again.
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 01:47:20 AM
Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.
And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.
In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.
The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.
The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.
Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.
If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.
The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.
Lone shark
Two teams were at it.
Not neutral at all.
Westmeath were no saints
Loneshark in the matter of Armagh tackling you are not saying anything that many Armagh people have not been saying for quite a while. Particularly about Forker and Morgan. I agree totally about McCabe. He deserved to go. I did not see either of the black card incidents for Clarke or Morgan. (I should add a friend at the match gave of about O'Hanlon tackling from early on). All that said the biggest problems I have with the referee are his inconsistencies. For example Campbell at one stage got a free given against him for over carrying the ball went down the field and a Westmeath player did the same thing and was given the free. At one stage I also remember a Westmeath player charge head down into the chest of an Armagh player who had his arms out and a free was given to Westmeath. I could go on and on. The worst though was his dealing with Heslin. I thought he committed a number of 'after' fouls and even managed to punch a player without penalty. I read the Hogan Stand report and it did mention he was lucky to stay on the field.
Now it may just be my impression but I do not feel Armagh are in the same league of rough tackling as Kerry, Dublin, Mayo, Donegal etc. They might not be as smart at it though. I also wonder if the referee was so good he does not get more big games.
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
Quote from: David McKeown on July 09, 2017, 01:35:56 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on July 09, 2017, 12:13:47 AM
The row in the stand was caused by an ould eejit wearing Armagh colours rubbing a Westmeath fan's nose in it after the Armagh goal.Three Gardai moved to defuse it. I stress it was an ould eejit who should have had more sense
A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge. Some Armagh fans didn't cover themselves in glory after that abusing players and officials and using foul language. The Westmeath subs bench took exception to some of the things said and hurled abuse at the offending Armagh supporters. After the goal a different Armagh supporter turned round to taunt the Westmeath bench who threw water over him and began to threaten him. Very unedifying for all involved.
Armagh fan got what he deserved in other words, there's few things more irritating as a sub sitting in the stand and having a pack of opposition mouthpieces sitting behind you. Kilcoo would be big fans of it.
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 01:56:54 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 09, 2017, 01:35:56 AM
A massive over simplification of what happened in which no one covers themselves in glory. Lots of needle throughout from the initial shocking decision to black card Clarke for a clear shoulder charge.
You forgot to mention how it was off the ball, and how Clarke continued to pull out of Gonoud while he was on the ground, in case he planned on getting up and supporting the Westmeath man in possession. Nobody except the most one-eyed of Armagh supporters could say anything else. Not a single dissenting voice in the press box at the time, from Armagh, Westmeath, or neutrals - he had to go.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 09, 2017, 01:38:43 AM
I thought it was hard to judge as Westmeath got away with an awful lot whilst Armagh seemed very harshly treated for any misdemeanor. That said credit to Armagh who reverted to a system in the second half that reduced fouling and made the game difficult for Westmeath. Deserved winners in the end
Deserved winners, yes. The rest of that is daft. Firstly, they committed 19 fouls in the first half and 20 in the second. 18 personals in each - that's not reduction by my maths. And harshly treated would suggest unwarranted cards - there wasn't a single card Armagh got that could be remotely disputed, and there were at least ten more that could have been awarded along with it. For one example, not one free was given for late tackle all game, and it quickly became apparent to me that it was a team tactic to hit after the ball was gone. At one stage I counted five late hits in four minutes, none penalised.
Again, I have no axe to grind here, and the handful or Armagh folk I know are good GAA people that I'd have a lot of time for. I've always enjoyed watching them play, but in all my time going to games professionally and socially, I've never seen anything like what went on tonight.
With reference to the rules for a black card which black card offence did Clarke commit, for him to have no complaints? The problem with the black card is that despite it being for very specific well defined offences fans, journalists and referees often seem clueless as to when it should be given
As to the number of fouls awarded they must be concerning but given the abhorrent performance of the referee I would take the numbers with a pinch of salt.
Lone Shark to portray yourself as a neutral and then list every single disgression that Armagh made and ignore everything thatWestmeath done doesn't read well. You ignored the two obvious black cards not given against Westmeath players in front of the stand in the second half before the ones that they did get. You ignored the black card offence on Niall Grimley before the goal. You ignored the clear black card offence on Stefan Campbell in the first half. Finally you ignored the punch by John Heslin on Brendan Donaghy at the low goals which happened under the nose of the umpires and the ref. Neutral, give me a break!!
That said, Armaghs tackling was shockingly poor. It had actually been very good against Fermanagh with numerous legal turnovers with Rory Grugan very prominent. Highly debatable that all 36 frees were justified though. It's something that will have to be worked on for the next game for sure.
This Armagh team had been snatching defeat from the jaws of victory all year so the nature of this win should do wonders for their confidence.
Hard to find any real outstanding performances from an Armagh player. Thought our midfielders did well, we just couldn't get a break ball during the final 10 minutes. Aidan Forker had a decent second half. RoryvGrugan and Gavin McParland had a good first half. Our subs had a great influence in the final few minutes.
Lone shark is from Offaly lads. I don't think he'd be in any way inclined to put on Maroon tinted glasses. If anything the opposite. This is the lad who was roaring at Westmeath lads to get back in their box after a league win back in the mid 00s I think :)
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 09, 2017, 10:17:51 AM
Lone shark is from Offaly lads. I don't think he'd be in any way inclined to put on Maroon tinted glasses. If anything the opposite. This is the lad who was roaring at Westmeath lads to get back in their box after a league win back in the mid 00s I think :)
He's want to be writing about their antics though if he wants to be taken seriously as neutral. Or at least not anti Armagh
Even the commentators on Midlands103 expected a Westmeath player to receive a red card for a strike towards the end of the first half (I think it was).
LS, it seems like the unjust feelings from the Armagh supporters wasn't due to the fact that we were harshly treated; but rather it was that Westmeath didn't receive the same punishment for their fouls?
Lone Shark, i agree with some of your points you mentioned but the main point you got wrong was the nuetral part, you gave a report on how bad Armagh were at this and that and how many players should have been sent off etc. You gave i dunno how many paragraphs on Armagh but haven't mentioned one Westmeath player, I trust you being neutral and all that there will be a similar report to come today on Westmeath players as i know it was late when you done the Armagh report and prob didn't have the time to write the Westmeath one...look forward to reading it later
I don't think Armagh fans will find an awful lot wrong with what LS said. Well most it if. It's more what he didn't say which is the problem
Never mind this match in isolation but isn't the black card rule as it stands a load of crap. It just adds greater pressure and frustration. As others have said it seems most players, referees, fans etc. don't know rule.
Quote from: snoopdog on July 09, 2017, 08:50:26 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
I seem to recall Kildare blaming refs all the time also under mcgeeney management. Dublin beat that westmeath team by 31 points. The draw for the next round will be interesting. If you avoid Monaghan and get past Tipp you could be playing Down again as Down can't draw Monaghan. That's if Down lose Ulster final. Qualifiers are very poorly organised this group a and b is a terrible idea. Just leads to a bigger chance of teams who have met previously to meet again.
Why can Down draw Monaghan but not play armagh?
The a and b draws are key to minimising teams turning out the week after a defeat. A good thing
In fairness to Lone Shark I think it's entirely possible to attend a game as a neutral, see things that you don't like, judge that one team are more culpable and post on a discussion forum about that team. If they happen to be winners and the opposition now effectively irrelevant for the remainder of the season then all the more so.
We remain relevant. We in the draw and gave another game. It will be refereed by one of the guys on the current roster and the rules of the game won't change by next Saturday. We have discipline and tackling issues to worry about by next Saturday. We also need to look at same issues in our club and underage games and in our coaching. Controls the controllables and all the usual mantras
I'm glad that Armagh just scrapped over the line - it emphasises that we still have a lot of work to do.
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:22:12 PM
In fairness to Lone Shark I think it's entirely possible to attend a game as a neutral, see things that you don't like, judge that one team are more culpable and post on a discussion forum about that team. If they happen to be winners and the opposition now effectively irrelevant for the remainder of the season then all the more so.
We remain relevant. We in the draw and gave another game. It will be refereed by one of the guys on the current roster and the rules of the game won't change by next Saturday. We have discipline and tackling issues to worry about by next Saturday. We also need to look at same issues in our club and underage games and in our coaching. Controls the controllables and all the usual mantras
Stop being so sensible. There is no fun in that. :D
You are 100% on coaching.
A further factor might be that we are used to watching football played in a more physical fashion than is allowed in other provinces.
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
I was merely drawing your attention to the accuracies in LS's report. What was McCabe sent on to do? What percentage of what he did was within the rules? Could you stand with your back to play, put both hands on the opponents arms and mark the player by staying within the rules? Big question for us Armagh fans is what the f**k is going on in the prep that allows this to happen?
The big positive was that we showed fight but that doesn't mean physical aggression. O'Neil taking that point was fight . The sort missing at the end of so many other games
Quote from: Throw ball on July 09, 2017, 11:49:26 AM
Never mind this match in isolation but isn't the black card rule as it stands a load of crap. It just adds greater pressure and frustration. As others have said it seems most players, referees, fans etc. don't know rule.
Journalists, pundits and some referees are struggling with it. That needs addressed. But the rule must stay
In what other sport would you get 100 kids playing on the pitch at half time?
Quote from: Orior on July 09, 2017, 12:34:47 PM
In what other sport would you get 100 kids playing on the pitch at half time?
Was great to see.
On another note the announcer in Mullingar seems to enjoy a bit of craicash! Some funny one liners from him.
That's a remarkably blinkered, one sided account by a neutral as I have ever read.
I take it that midlanders have a unique understanding of the concept of neutrality and taken in a much wider context, Lone Shark's neutrality is as questionable as a sighting of Elvis.
Quote from: Throw ball on July 09, 2017, 12:27:55 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:22:12 PM
In fairness to Lone Shark I think it's entirely possible to attend a game as a neutral, see things that you don't like, judge that one team are more culpable and post on a discussion forum about that team. If they happen to be winners and the opposition now effectively irrelevant for the remainder of the season then all the more so.
We remain relevant. We in the draw and gave another game. It will be refereed by one of the guys on the current roster and the rules of the game won't change by next Saturday. We have discipline and tackling issues to worry about by next Saturday. We also need to look at same issues in our club and underage games and in our coaching. Controls the controllables and all the usual mantras
Stop being so sensible. There is no fun in that. :D
You are 100% on coaching.
A further factor might be that we are used to watching football played in a more physical fashion than is allowed in other provinces.
We have a cultural problem. We are not alone but to heck with the rest we have ourselves to worry about. A big hit within the rules is a joy to watch. Slapping around the opponents arms with closed fists is anything other than stupid. It sure ain't manly. O'Neill's point on the other hand took nads
Quote from: Orior on July 09, 2017, 12:27:13 PM
I'm glad that Armagh just scrapped over the line - it emphasises that we still have a lot of work to do.
A lot of truth in that
I also think some of the bigger names look vulnerable in the qualifiers. Could be a good year to have a good year
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
I was merely drawing your attention to the accuracies in LS's report. What was McCabe sent on to do? What percentage of what he did was within the rules? Could you stand with your back to play, put both hands on the opponents arms and mark the player by staying within the rules? Big question for us Armagh fans is what the f**k is going on in the prep that allows this to happen?
The big positive was that we showed fight but that doesn't mean physical aggression. O'Neil taking that point was fight . The sort missing at the end of so many other games
My point was if he is neutral why did he completely ignore the antics of the WM team? It was far from a neutral report. Accurate? Yes for the most part. Very in some parts. Neutral? Far from it
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
I was merely drawing your attention to the accuracies in LS's report. What was McCabe sent on to do? What percentage of what he did was within the rules? Could you stand with your back to play, put both hands on the opponents arms and mark the player by staying within the rules? Big question for us Armagh fans is what the f**k is going on in the prep that allows this to happen?
The big positive was that we showed fight but that doesn't mean physical aggression. O'Neil taking that point was fight . The sort missing at the end of so many other games
My point was if he is neutral why did he completely ignore the antics of the WM team? It was far from a neutral report. Accurate? Yes for the most part. Very in some parts. Neutral? Far from it
It's not a match report or an affidavit.
It hits at a number of valid criticisms of our team. Dealing with those points is the sensible thing to do. You carry on with whatever you think is helpful
Are Armagh due to play again this Saturday coming? Or will it be the following week?
Quote from: Feckitt on July 09, 2017, 01:17:45 PM
Are Armagh due to play again this Saturday coming? Or will it be the following week?
This week
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
I was merely drawing your attention to the accuracies in LS's report. What was McCabe sent on to do? What percentage of what he did was within the rules? Could you stand with your back to play, put both hands on the opponents arms and mark the player by staying within the rules? Big question for us Armagh fans is what the f**k is going on in the prep that allows this to happen?
The big positive was that we showed fight but that doesn't mean physical aggression. O'Neil taking that point was fight . The sort missing at the end of so many other games
My point was if he is neutral why did he completely ignore the antics of the WM team? It was far from a neutral report. Accurate? Yes for the most part. Very in some parts. Neutral? Far from it
It's not a match report or an affidavit.
It hits at a number of valid criticisms of our team. Dealing with those points is the sensible thing to do. You carry on with whatever you think is helpful
He claimed he was a neutral. His report clearly wasn't. And some of it was just wrong. And I have agreed that some of the criticisms are correct
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 01:21:19 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 01:11:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 01:03:00 PM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 12:30:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 08:54:07 AM
Quote from: smelmoth on July 09, 2017, 08:38:41 AM
What about the description of McCabe's performance? The 40 fouls? The closed fists? The late hits? The fouling rates in previous games?
If we cannot see this ourselves or recognise it when it is pointed out to us then we have a problem.
We have been crying about refs for 2 years now. Is there not something we can do on discipline and executing the tackle to address this ourselves? Or is it easier to gripe and complain about outside influences i.e. Refs? Maybe Armagh's games should be refereed by the refs that officiate other counties?
He already mentioned those. McCabe was a walking red from the moment he walked on. I didn't see what Clarke done but there's a few differing reports out there so it's hard to know. As for Morgan, my uncle said to me after a few minutes that Westmeath were trying to get him sent off it black carded. A few minutes later he was. Was it deserved? Happened on the opposite side of the pitch to me so I can't say but again different people saying different things. One Westmeath man I spoke to afterwards said it wasn't. One Armagh man said it was so who knows.
The 40 fouls though. Bad number but how many of them should never have been frees? That said we didn't wise up to it at all.
The guy gave a very thorough report but it certainly wasn't an unbiased report as he claimed. Loneshark makes some very valid points. As do you. But just because we have been mentioning refs for two years doesn't mean we should overlook their ineptitude when they do it
I was merely drawing your attention to the accuracies in LS's report. What was McCabe sent on to do? What percentage of what he did was within the rules? Could you stand with your back to play, put both hands on the opponents arms and mark the player by staying within the rules? Big question for us Armagh fans is what the f**k is going on in the prep that allows this to happen?
The big positive was that we showed fight but that doesn't mean physical aggression. O'Neil taking that point was fight . The sort missing at the end of so many other games
My point was if he is neutral why did he completely ignore the antics of the WM team? It was far from a neutral report. Accurate? Yes for the most part. Very in some parts. Neutral? Far from it
It's not a match report or an affidavit.
It hits at a number of valid criticisms of our team. Dealing with those points is the sensible thing to do. You carry on with whatever you think is helpful
He claimed he was a neutral. His report clearly wasn't. And some of it was just wrong. And I have agreed that some of the criticisms are correct
See post 164
I get that mate. I do. I still don't agree with his post being of a neutral nature. I'm not gonna argue with you. I think you are an unbiased and sensible poster and as stated I don't have any issues with most of what LS said. Maybe it's just me but in the interests of fairness I think he could have mentioned the WM issues, of which there were many.
We have a lot to work on in regards to discipline and tackling. We knew that already. A better team than WM will punish us a lot more.
Someone made the point a while ago that in GF the tackle is a mess cos the steps are not controlled coherently. Backs make a move and the timing is off. Maybe Armagh do this a bit more. Gaelic football is so Irish
Can anyone tell me what J Clarke got his black card for?
Quote from: seafoid on July 09, 2017, 02:01:55 PM
Someone made the point a while ago that in GF the tackle is a mess cos the steps are not controlled coherently. Backs make a move and the timing is off. Maybe Armagh do this a bit more. Gaelic football is so Irish
??? Hmmmm
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 01:47:20 AM
Was covering this game as a reporter in a neutral capacity, and to be honest I felt Armagh got away with murder here. One red card, 3 black cards, 6 yellow cards and I made it 39 frees conceded, of which 3 were technical (steps, illegal handpass etc) and an incredible 36 were for physical offences.
And here's the thing - it could have been way more. The Armagh crowd went ballistic and thought that they were hard done by, it was anything but - if that game was refereed even remotely close to the rules, they'd have ended up with ten or eleven men on the field. I didn't see James Morgan's offence but Clarke didn't have a leg to stand on, and McCabe should have walked far sooner. I've never seen anything like it - the best way to describe his "performance" was he played like an offensive lineman in American Football, if Paul Sharry was a linebacker. McCabe had his back to the ball a huge amount of the time and was doing nothing only holding, pulling, dragging and blocking Sharry who was trying to make runs. He could have had five black cards of his own - it was bordering on comical.
In general Armagh's "tackling" was cat. Closed fists, obligatory (and completely needless) late hits on players who had just played the ball, rugby tackles, literally anything went. Twice Westmeath lads were running down the sideline, a fair shoulder was on, but instead, needless push in the back, followed by more bellowing from the crowd when the free was given. Madness.
Rory Grugan, Ciarán O'Hanlon and Aidan Forker are others that could have walked the line for black cards, and while there was nothing worthy of a straight red that I saw, I'd say you could have sent off four or five lads for double yellows.
The referee was strong in the early stages, albeit to some degree because of his linesman's influence, but the Armagh crowd started to get to him and he soon stopped giving out cards except where he really had to - and that was enough. Put it this way - not one player got booked for persistent fouling, and if you commit 36 personal fouls, either you rotate it perfectly or else you should have a few players getting yellow for their third offence.
The sad thing about this is that there are a lot of lads on that Armagh team that I didn't know that well as footballers, and they can play ball, much more than your average division three side. Grimley was good at midfield, Aaron McKay made a couple of crucial blocks, denying one certain goal, Campbell, Rafferty and O'Neill were real impact subs, and the Ballymacnab pair of Grugan and McParland kicked some lovely points. Conceding the kickouts didn't make sense to me as there was no doubt as to who was going to win the aerial battle, and it wasn't the home team.
Yet for all that, Armagh didn't win the game - Westmeath lost it. The final five point margin was deceptive. Westmeath missed three glorious chances for points around the 70 minute mark with the game level. They won four kickouts and failed to score, Armagh won one and O'Neill kicked a lovely point. Westmeath committed pretty much everyone forward trying to chase an equaliser and they got caught on the break twice, goal first, then the insurance point.
If any one of those three attempts went over, Westmeath would have won, because Armagh wouldn't have had the space they enjoyed at the death - and certainly I'd have backed Heslin to score that free any day. Up until that late breakaway, Westmeath had four goal chances, and took just one. Westmeath had the winning of this game, and that was on a day when only three players scored - two of them doing so once each, both capitalising from close range after a kind bounce.
The Armagh lads beside me in the press box who were doing stats were saying that they were the same against Fermanagh, but that the referee was even kinder still. It's daft stuff, and it's not going to end well.
If you genuinely think Armagh got away with murder then you got an idea into your head and you ran with it.
The Armagh tackling was awful, but they got punished more than handsomely. Their tackling against Fermanagh was reallyhard but clean, it was a different ball game. They must have ended up with 10 yellows last night.
Sharry tried to con the officials all night, and it worked as Morgan was ran into and pulled down. Clarke, by the rules, was not a black.
The push down the sideline was also no push. Let's not even get into the other 50-50s that went against them.
Westmeath were the side that got away with a lot more over the 70 minutes, without doubt.
Armagh's tackling and discipline was atrocious, but they were seized on, and then some, by a referee and his officials.
Forget the ref. Forget Westmeath and forget Lone Shark.
They won't be relevant next day out.
Move on
Focus on our tackling. Where will it get us the next day? Are we happy if they are sent out to play that way again? What can be done to correct the position this week and in the longer term?
Armagh have been throwing games away all year, getting sucker punched, so we'll take being on the right side of this one for a change and move on. The poor tackling and ill discipline has been a theme during McGeeney's charge, which is a bit odd given his own track record as a player. Poor and all as Armagh were yesterday it was a decent sign that in the face of adversity (losing two of their best players through black cards early on and a red later on) they managed to eke out a result and show a bit of character.
Quote from: Sandy Hill on July 09, 2017, 04:40:23 PM
Can anyone tell me what J Clarke got his black card for?
Body collide.
He hit the guy with a shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder. Was just on the Sunday game
Ah come on .A text book black card
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
He hit the guy with a shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder. Was just on the Sunday game
Quote from: maigheo on July 09, 2017, 11:31:09 PM
Ah come on .A text book black cardQuote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
He hit the guy with a shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder. Was just on the Sunday game
Yes, the ball was gone. Wasn't the worst you'll see but he definitely moved towards him knowing the ball was gone preventing him from joining in the play.
To be honest, at 39 years of age, if lads want to think that I have an anti-Armagh agenda for some bizarre reason, despite the fact that Offaly have never played a senior championship game against them in my lifetime and the fact that I live over 100 miles away from the county boundary and have little or no interaction with Armagh people on a daily basis, then work away. There are none so blind as those who refuse to see, and I could not be arsed trying to convince people otherwise.
I'm well aware that in Ulster, and also in Connacht, there is a fair degree of provincial solidarity - people will stick up for other counties of their own. Rest assured Offaly (or Leinster in general) doesn't work like that. We are in a bad way at the moment, almost entirely of our own making, but we'll always have our own identity and I feel as much affinity with Westmeath as I do with the people of Donegal, Kerry, or the Isle of Man. In my teens and twenties, I'd have cheered on a team made up entirely of parking clampers if they were playing Westmeath, but now I'm just too lazy to bother expending such emotional energy, so I'm entirely ambivalent. I know Tom Cribbin personally and he's a very decent skin who is an honest and as genuine a man as you could hope to meet, so I'm disappointed for him, but not so much that I'm going to drag myself into a needless online row for the sake of it.
So just to pick up on the other points that were raised.
(1) I was not intending to write a "report". If you want that, here's one I wrote for the GAA website - http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/round-qualifier-armagh-defeat-westmeath/ (http://www.gaa.ie/football/news/round-qualifier-armagh-defeat-westmeath/) I was merely looking to make an observation about what I considered to be a remarkable game, unlike anything I've ever seen before. At a guess I've seen the Armagh senior footballers play live (i.e. at the stadium) on average about once a year over the past decade, and I saw Kildare plenty of times when McGeeney was in charge there. I didn't expect anything like this. It was unprecedented in my years of match reporting, and I just felt like sharing my views on a GAA discussion board.
(2) I'm not for a minute claiming to have presented an exhaustive list of every transgression that happened from both sides. That's not what it was about - I was remarking about the fact that Armagh's fouling appeared to be deliberate, coached, utterly un-necessary in a lot of cases, and could easily have drawn a record number of cards. I am well aware that there are members of the Westmeath team that are no angels, and I've no doubt that there was other stuff going on. However as I said, I didn't observe a red card incident from either team, I didn't observe Westmeath make a load of black/yellow card fouls that went unpunished, so I didn't discuss them. Much the same as I didn't see the messing that went on between the Westmeath subs and the Armagh fans - so I won't comment on that either. My point wasn't that fouls A, B, C went unpunished, it was that every time I looked, there were more things happening. The late hits in particular was incredibly odd. A huge number of them were harmless shoves or bumps after the ball was gone, nothing that you'd bother whistling if it was a one off, but it just seemed like a policy, because it was happening every time.
(3) There can be no disputing the Clarke black card. Jamie Gonoud made a run to support the man in possession, Clarke shouldered into him and ensured he couldn't rejoin the move. And yes, a lot of journalists and commentators don't understand it. However I'm also involved in underage coaching, so I make damn sure that I do know the rules. That was certainly a "Deliberate Body Collide to take a player out of the movement of the play".
(4) On the Heslin/Grimley altercation, again the two lads ended up wrestling on the ground, and because it was a move that was likely to lead to a goal chance, so I'd have to note the build up, I was watching the ball. However I will say that the idea that Heslin would instigate when his team was mounting a dangerous attack seems counterintuitive. Now if there are others who saw a punch from Heslin, then I'm not going to say he didn't. He'd certainly be one player who has been guilty of rash outbursts in the past, but not so much in recent years.
(5) Were there some frees given against Armagh that were harsh? Absolutely - particularly late on, there were a couple of frees given under the kickout that seemed to be for little or nothing. However there are two aspects to this - firstly, that's the kind of stuff that happens in every game, you'll always have a fair number of contentious calls of that type, and secondly, when you spend the game fouling constantly, that's the kind of consequence you can expect - Refs will presume that you're going to keep transgressing. That's just human nature.
(6) On the Fermanagh game, you'll note that I didn't say that Armagh's tactics in that game were the same as they were here. Again, I wasn't at that game, and I certainly won't judge on the basis of a lousy two minutes of Sunday Game highlights. I was merely relating what the Armagh statisticians beside me in the press box said, in terms of the approach and the number of frees. If someone who was at both games says that the nature of the fouling was completely different, then I'm not going to argue.
(7) Anyone who believes that O'Sullivan was fussy or harsh should take a look at how David Gough handled the Connacht final today. Look at some of the frees that were given for off the ball fouls, for the slightest of pulls or for very minimal contact. Note how he gave yellow cards for persistent fouling, even if it was slight in nature. O'Sullivan gave no yellows for persistent fouling, and no "off the ball" frees - and he could have gone to town. Now Gough is the other end of the scale, but if Armagh were reffed by those standards, I'm not exaggerating when I say they'd have finished the game with 10 or 11 men on the field, while there would have been a lot more 20m frees for off the ball incidents close to goal. I can say with complete certainty that if this approach is maintained, ye will meet a referee who will take a far less lenient approach than Padraig O'Sullivan did yesterday. And if your response to that is to say "Lenient?? LENIENT??" in an increasingly shrill voice, then work away. I won't be losing sleep over it.
Quote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
He hit the guy with a shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder. Was just on the Sunday game
It was 100% a black card
Quote from: maigheo on July 09, 2017, 11:31:09 PM
Ah come on .A text book black cardQuote from: tonto1888 on July 09, 2017, 11:28:40 PM
He hit the guy with a shoulder. Shoulder to shoulder. Was just on the Sunday game
I didn't say it wasn't mate. But that's what he done. After the ball had gone. I will admit the ruling of what constitutes a black or not confuses me. A lot. Also seems the refs are inconsistent when applying it
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 09, 2017, 11:34:51 PM
(2) I'm not for a minute claiming to have presented an exhaustive list of every transgression that happened from both sides. That's not what it was about - I was remarking about the fact that Armagh's fouling appeared to be deliberate, coached, utterly un-necessary in a lot of cases, and could easily have drawn a record number of cards.
I think there is no doubt that much of the fouling is indeed utterly un-necessary. Everyone knows that you sometimes risk a card in particular circumstances, but why on earth was Jamie Clarke taking such measures in the first minute of the game, in the middle of the field against a player who probably wouldn't have made any difference anyway?
Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.
The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques rather than dirty play. There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.
Quote from: Throw ball on July 10, 2017, 12:18:17 AM
Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.
The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques rather than dirty play. There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.
I'm not getting wound up about it, at all. As a handful of people on this board will know, I've had more cause than most to learn some hard lessons about what's important and isn't important in life this year, and you'd find my pulse is fairly settled as I type right now. The point of my post was not to try and deal with the raving loonies who believe that any criticism can only stem from an inherent bias (and in fairness, if I grew up in Northern Ireland under Unionist control, I might have the same mindset!), but to point out to the silent majority that the idea that I might have any chip on my shoulder is plain daft. That's all.
Definitely I didn't see that Heslin incident you're referring to. Obviously if that happened, that would have been a hugely significant miss on the part of the officials.
However on the point of inconsistency, my whole thing is that while O'Sullivan's approach was his own, and there were some types of fouls that he didn't call at all, in my view Armagh were the ones who benefitted hugely from that inconsistency, since their "unique" approach was such that a referee could have given a card every two minutes, if he wanted to call it by the book. McCabe alone could have had one every five minutes. In fact if ever there was a case where a referee could have been justified in taking a leaf out of the rugby union book and calling over the captain to have a word with his team, this was it.
LS, I didn't see the game, only listened to it on the radio, and while I took the remarks of the Westmeath commentators with a degree of skepticism, I value your insights as credible, coming from a disinterested party with no axe to grind or a county affiliation to bolster.
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 10, 2017, 12:37:27 AM
Quote from: Throw ball on July 10, 2017, 12:18:17 AM
Loneshark I wouldn't get too upset about people disagreeing with you. We are only talking about football. There are more important things. As for Heslin/Grimley incident I do not recall that. I will say that Niall is by no stretch a hard or dirty player. He would seldom get involved in any wrestling. The Heslin incident - in particular - I was on about occurred near end of normal time. There was a ball played in and he went up with 2 Armagh players and the ball went wide. He proceeded to shoulder one Armagh player and then punch Brendan Donaghy in stomach.
The problem with tackling is important but I believe in general I feel this is over exuberance and poor techniques rather than dirty play. There are a couple of exceptions to this. That still does not mean that I feel the inconsistency of the referee was not a factor on the free count or frustration felt.
I'm not getting wound up about it, at all. As a handful of people on this board will know, I've had more cause than most to learn some hard lessons about what's important and isn't important in life this year, and you'd find my pulse is fairly settled as I type right now. The point of my post was not to try and deal with the raving loonies who believe that any criticism can only stem from an inherent bias (and in fairness, if I grew up in Northern Ireland under Unionist control, I might have the same mindset!), but to point out to the silent majority that the idea that I might have any chip on my shoulder is plain daft. That's all.
Definitely I didn't see that Heslin incident you're referring to. Obviously if that happened, that would have been a hugely significant miss on the part of the officials.
However on the point of inconsistency, my whole thing is that while O'Sullivan's approach was his own, and there were some types of fouls that he didn't call at all, in my view Armagh were the ones who benefitted hugely from that inconsistency, since their "unique" approach was such that a referee could have given a card every two minutes, if he wanted to call it by the book. McCabe alone could have had one every five minutes. In fact if ever there was a case where a referee could have been justified in taking a leaf out of the rugby union book and calling over the captain to have a word with his team, this was it.
On McCabe I agree 100% with you. I must admit that considering the options on the bench I was surprised McCabe came on. Shields , Rowland and Mcelroy are all footballer options I would have thought would have been on before him.
I am very puzzled by Lone Sharks comments. I am critical of Armagh when it's required. I think k they could be more disciplined, I think they have 1 or 2 individuals who need to wind their neck in when it comes to the chest out aggression stakes. But ffs lads WM were in the business of diving and the ref was pretty obviously trying to make a point that there would be no physical contact worth mentioning. It was embarrassing. The games I know have gone replaced with a type of netball that seems more suitable to sky sports and the commercial aims of the GAA. Ridiculous. Glad to be in the hat.
For what it's worth I didn't detect any bias in the referee.All of the black cards/red cards were warranted,and whether the referee misses some or whatever,if you commit an offence warranting a card and duly get a card,you cannot complain.
Also I think there's an increasing Milllwall like "No one likes us we don't care" syndrome developing in the Armagh "support" which is not at all pleasant.
Quote from: T Fearon on July 10, 2017, 07:57:50 AM
For what it's worth I didn't detect any bias in the referee.All of the black cards/red cards were warranted,and whether the referee misses some or whatever,if you commit an offence warranting a card and duly get a card,you cannot complain.
Also I think there's an increasing Milllwall like "No one likes us we don't care" syndrome developing in the Armagh "support" which is not at all pleasant.
Back in the day when ye were competitive ye had the Buckfast Brigade who would have been involved in plenty of banter but I wouldnt like to think a Milwall syndrome is developing.
By Milwall do you also mean fighting?
LoneShark youbgave a very comprehensive account. As an Armagh man I disagreed with some of it while a lot of it was accurate. I will disagree with you over the ref though. I mentioned anti Armagh. I don't think you are. I was just wondering how you could call yourself neutral while not mentioning any of WNs indiscretions. But how and ever.
A Milwall element in our support? What nonsense.
A general nastiness and aggression,which did threaten to spill over on Saturday.In any event we are away to Tipp this Saturday.
Indeed we are. Not good
We were 10 points a better team than tipp in the last league game based on general play. The question is whether we can be more clinical in front of goal three months on and whether we have learned anything in terms of dealing with Quinlivan.
Of course Tipp can, entirely with merit, claim that they had a poor day generally that day in the league but Quinlivan was the beginning and end of their attacking threat. Fingers crossed he's still not 100%.
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Quote from: Taylor on July 10, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: Taylor on July 10, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.
Agreed. It's not even that's its inconsistent from game to game it's inconsistent within games
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: Taylor on July 10, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.
It had already been passed at Congress previous to Cavanagh's manhood being called into question.
Quote from: OgraAnDun on July 10, 2017, 12:45:06 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: Taylor on July 10, 2017, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
This is incorrect. Was mentioned well before this incident.
Might have been mentioned but the introduction followed swiftly after the controversy surrounding it. Any way nit picking aside it remains unclear to most how it should be applied and application is not consistent that is the actual point I am making.
It had already been passed at Congress previous to Cavanagh's manhood being called into question.
Ogra is 100% correct - this nonsense that Brolly got it introduced is a soundbite
And Brolly has repeatedly confirmed that it was nothing to do with him.
And nit picking aside my point remains the same, I don't particularly care when, I'm more interested on the how and where.
Quote from: Applesisapples on July 10, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
I unfortunately missed the match due to family commitments, so I can't comment on the specifics of this Ref's performance. What I have witnessed from Armagh in league and championship is a tendency for some players to do incredibly stupid things, whether it is late hits, slapping the ball away after a free is given and in the case of some individuals poor tackling. What has frustrated me as a spectator though is a lack of consistency from Ref's. What is given as a free at one end isn't at the other. In Jamie Clarke we have a very gifted footballer, but in the games I've seen him play he has been frustrated by a lack of protection from Ref's and has been on the wrong end of poor decisions. Against Fermanagh James Morgan made at least 3 tackles and similarly against Down where he clearly played the ball away but because he was behind the man a free was blown for absolutely no reason. My point is if you are going to let play go as happens in hurling then do so consistently. I have a perception that Armagh are hard done my, but that is personal bias. No harm to LS you can not be entirely neutral it is not in human nature. On the black card it was introduced as a reaction to the outcry after Kavanagh's cynical foul on McManus. The problem seems to be the scope has widened and no one including myself seems to be clear on application. It should be simplified to any foul play that denies a goal scoring opportunity that warrants a yellow as opposed to red card. Other cynical fouls should be yellows.
James Morgan did not play against Fermanagh (to further continue the nit picking.)
I agree with the sentiment that there is little consistency in refereeing, however I do feel the overarching problem is no clearly defined tackle thus leaving it a very difficult rule to implement. What may seem like "the same incident" usually has some nuance which makes it slightly different. Each decision has to be made on it's own merits, even if I do feel referees should try to blow less (a bit of a contradiction I know.)
Finally, against Fermanagh Jamie needed no protection whasoever. In fact when making runs he tended to initially instigate contact with his man in order to create space for himself to get in front. I was a bit disappointed in our defender who allowed it to happen so often.
The attacks on loneshark for not being neutral are laughable, there would have been no one jumping higher than him a few weeks ago if Offaly had beaten us either of the two days out.
Really disappointed with that referee on Saturday, he was incapable of making a decision himself and only for the officials on the sidelines who had to come on and point out obvious cards to him it would have been a bloodbath. That said, we kicked it away. 1-7 won't win you anything and the points we missed towards the end were soul destroying.
Really looking forward to this game and my first visit to Thurles, a 50/50 game where both teams will fancy their chances. Hope it's better than our last game v Westmeath. Armagh have a big game in them and hope we'll need it further down the road, Tipp have showed what they're capable off esp last year and are starting to build a bit of momentum, This game will be a good confidence builder for whoever wins it.
I'm also looking forward to my first visit to Semple Stadium. However, I think Armagh peaked against Westmeath and will struggle Tipp, loosing by 7 or 8 points.
Quote from: Orior on July 12, 2017, 01:02:51 PM
I'm also looking forward to my first visit to Semple Stadium. However, I think Armagh peaked against Westmeath and will struggle Tipp, loosing by 7 or 8 points.
Not much of a peak, hardly even a drumlin.
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Yerrrooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Buckfast army causing havoc again, tsk :P
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
I bet most of the delegates weren't at the game
top table in westmeath are a shambles
Cusack Park was substantially full, a lot more WH people would have raised issues of capacity.
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Fair Point
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Well, I have 1636 posts and it happened....
http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/it-was-frightening-armagh-gaa-fans-accused-of-horrendous-behaviour-at-westmeath-match-35972730.html
Quote from: The Gs Man on July 27, 2017, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Well, I have 1636 posts and it happened....
Tell us more so as to what went on Gs Man. Full background and events leading up to it please.
Outnumbered 4 to 1 in a home game :'(
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2017, 11:35:56 AM
Outnumbered 4 to 1 in a home game :'(
It's the norm. County board don't even attempt to market games. Clueless.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
So does one need 1000+ posts to be seen as truthful? I'm sorry I had no idea. Let me take my lying ass back to the drawing board and get posting so I can be taken seriously. My dear fella, I watched it happen - and when unsuspecting supporters get showered with water, and objects they will more than likely react whether they are from Armagh, Westmeath or Dublin. The atmosphere was otherwise pretty good I like a lot of supporters was there with my children who enjoyed the whole experience - not least the opportunity to talk with and get photos taken with players after the game. BTW the Westmeath players and management stayed on the field chatting to supporters every bit as long as the Armagh ones did so I don't think they had much truck with what went on on the field.
Are we saying that the Westmeath players just decided to throw water at random Armagh fans? Or was it the actual water bottles they threw? With no provocation?
Now God knows I've had my rattles with Westmeath over the years, and I normally don't like to see them winning the half time raffle, but that doesn't sound like anything I've seen or heard from them before.
That said, the Westmeath CB article sounds unbelievably childish and bitter.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 27, 2017, 11:59:33 AM
Are we saying that the Westmeath players just decided to throw water at random Armagh fans? Or was it the actual water bottles they threw? With no provocation?
Now God knows I've had my rattles with Westmeath over the years, and I normally don't like to see them winning the half time raffle, but that doesn't sound like anything I've seen or heard from them before.
That said, the Westmeath CB article sounds unbelievably childish and bitter.
I was at the match and didn't even realise there was any bother until I phoned home. I remember near the end a number of people standing to see something but it was over in a matter of seconds. A bit much to brand 4000 people on the actions of a few.
I should add I have no idea who started what and none of the people around me seemed to have any drink taken. They were mostly families.
I don't believe there was any bother in Thurles with Armagh fans either. This seems to be a bit of a storm in a teacup.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 27, 2017, 01:28:02 PM
I don't believe there was any bother in Thurles with Armagh fans either. This seems to be a bit of a storm in a teacup.
It was great to get to a match in Thurles and the Tipp supporters were top notch
Yes was at both games and didn't see a single incident at either, you will always get a slabber no matter what County you support and there's not much you can do about that. TBH majority of the supporters are in fact families. TBF i know of one guy who i seem to bump into regular and he continuously shouts at the Ref for no reason at all (the odd time he's correct but i suppose if you do all the time you'll be right sometime). Armagh have a fantastic support and if you bring 4000 to a match and get 3 D**k heads I think you're doing rightly
As an Armagh fan, I would acknowledge that at times we have had our fair share of bucky fueled halfwits slobbering at matches. But that was in the glory days, recently whilst I've witnessed some crap refereeing performances being roundly booed, i have not seen any fans from other counties abused, although I beleive there was a difference of opinion between a couple of supporters at the Wicklow game which was quickly sorted. In this age of smart phones and video, I have yet to see a clip of this outrageous behaviour. If it exists could Westmeath not publish it? or does it (if it exists) reflect poorly on their own?
Sure we don't even know what this outrageous behaviour was. We have two witnesses here but all we have from them is that Westmeath subs showered unsuspecting supporters with water and objects. Strange that they would put that information out there but not what proceeded it.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: The Gs Man on July 27, 2017, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Well, I have 1636 posts and it happened....
Tell us more so as to what went on Gs Man. Full background and events leading up to it please.
Westmeath subs engaged in verbals with some clown like armagh supporters throughout the second half. I appreciate it takes quite a large amount of discipline to ignore your teammates being Allen names and denigrated but Jesus Christ why would you get involved. The armagh salabbers were actually in the 50/60s age range and I know them to see. Hard core, go to everything, know nothing loud mouths. We all have them.
Things got very heated in the last few minutes with the game in the balance and mistakes galore and the mouthing in both directions escalated. When armagh scored the goal and had it won the head the balls were gloating at the Westmeath subs and water was sprayed back in their direction. Obviously a load of people in the area were soaked. One water bottle was thrown and hit a supporter on the shoulder - a supporter nothing to do with the verbals inevitably.
Supporters should not abuse players but we all know how that goes. Every team has clowns and I've often enough told our own and others to mind their language or watch their mouth. Rarely stops it for more than a few minutes. There were plenty telling these 3/4 'supporters' to shut their mouths.
Players are heavily emotionally invested and are only human - have to say I couldn't see myself biting in that scenario personally but know plenty who would. I think players should know better.
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 27, 2017, 04:00:58 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: The Gs Man on July 27, 2017, 10:26:18 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:15:12 AM
Quote from: oliverkelly on July 27, 2017, 10:07:53 AM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on July 27, 2017, 10:01:17 AM
Quote from: you take er! on July 26, 2017, 04:57:13 PM
What's the story with ye Westmeath men?? You don't come out to support your county at home then you criticise Armagh for daring to travel in numbers (took over the ground was the quote I think) you slate us for contributing to the local economy, (how dare we) and then when your subs fire water bottles at our supporters we again come off badly!! I would suggest your county delegates should be more concerned about getting your own supporters to games and finding players who can put the ball over the bar. Worst case of sour grapes I've heard in a long time.
Interesting perspective, thanks for your kind suggestions, duly noted and much appreciated.
Didn't witness any aggression on the terrace but then again I was more concerned with the unchecked aggression on the field and on the sideline. Can't ever remember Gardai having to intervene in the stands before in Cusack Park, make of that what you will.
Surely Gardai felt the need to step in on this occasion if Subs were firing objects at fans like what has been claimed? Found it a very strange and sour grapes from Westmeath tbh
Only mention of "subs were firing objects at fans" came from a fella with 77 posts on gaaboard. Make of that what you will.
Well, I have 1636 posts and it happened....
Tell us more so as to what went on Gs Man. Full background and events leading up to it please.
Westmeath subs engaged in verbals with some clown like armagh supporters throughout the second half. I appreciate it takes quite a large amount of discipline to ignore your teammates being Allen names and denigrated but Jesus Christ why would you get involved. The armagh salabbers were actually in the 50/60s age range and I know them to see. Hard core, go to everything, know nothing loud mouths. We all have them.
Things got very heated in the last few minutes with the game in the balance and mistakes galore and the mouthing in both directions escalated. When armagh scored the goal and had it won the head the balls were gloating at the Westmeath subs and water was sprayed back in their direction. Obviously a load of people in the area were soaked. One water bottle was thrown and hit a supporter on the shoulder - a supporter nothing to do with the verbals inevitably.
Supporters should not abuse players but we all know how that goes. Every team has clowns and I've often enough told our own and others to mind their language or watch their mouth. Rarely stops it for more than a few minutes. There were plenty telling these 3/4 'supporters' to shut their mouths.
Players are heavily emotionally invested and are only human - have to say I couldn't see myself biting in that scenario personally but know plenty who would. I think players should know better.
We should identify the clowns to the Armagh county board and band them for a year or two.
From the Indo.........
It is understood, too, that some delegates in particular at the Westmeath board meeting were trenchant in their criticism of some Armagh followers, with words such as "aggressive" and "horrendous" being employed at the meeting.
Indeed, Coralstown-Kinnegad delegate Joe Keeffe stated that the abuse referee Padraig O'Sullivan received was "nothing short of scandalous".
He added: "It's an education to Westmeath fans to see the sort of abuse you can give referees and get away with it.
"It was frightening.
"There were 4,000 Armagh fans and only a thousand Westmeath supporters.
"They completely took over Cusack Park and intimidated everyone that was there."
Westmeath football committee chairman Dermot Fox suggested that some of the Armagh supporters had arrived early in the town and had visited the local hostelries. "By the time they got to the ground, they were inebriated," he claimed.
Looks like we have got our very own Orange Brigade.I said previously I thought a lot of Armagh supporters were obnoxious that evening.It seemed to start with Jamie's Black Card (which was merited) and got progressively worse.There was also a distinctly sneering "we have more fans than you" condescending attitude among a sizeable portion of Armagh fans.
We do have a "summer fan" base that grows if we make a bit of progress,who relish a road trip and a few bevvies.We could be doing without this.Now we will be scrutinised microscopically in Croke Park on Saturday and from now on.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 27, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
From the Indo.........
It is understood, too, that some delegates in particular at the Westmeath board meeting were trenchant in their criticism of some Armagh followers, with words such as "aggressive" and "horrendous" being employed at the meeting.
Indeed, Coralstown-Kinnegad delegate Joe Keeffe stated that the abuse referee Padraig O'Sullivan received was "nothing short of scandalous".
He added: "It's an education to Westmeath fans to see the sort of abuse you can give referees and get away with it.
"It was frightening.
"There were 4,000 Armagh fans and only a thousand Westmeath supporters.
"They completely took over Cusack Park and intimidated everyone that was there."
Westmeath football committee chairman Dermot Fox suggested that some of the Armagh supporters had arrived early in the town and had visited the local hostelries. "By the time they got to the ground, they were inebriated," he claimed.
Canton Caseys, Annebrook Hotel and the Greville were delighted with the Armagh supporters
It was a sorry saga in which no one covers themselves in glory. The vocal minority of Armagh whose language and behaviour was disgraceful, the Westmeath bench whose behaviour was equally disgraceful and the stewards and gardai who dealt poorly with the developing situation.
Worst of all though is the County delegates to drum it all up again in such a public, one sided manor weeks after the event. Exactly what does this achieve at this stage?
Every county has their fair share of lunatics...from my trip to Armagh and theirs to thurles can't say I came across anything but a good crowd.
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 27, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
From the Indo.........
It is understood, too, that some delegates in particular at the Westmeath board meeting were trenchant in their criticism of some Armagh followers, with words such as "aggressive" and "horrendous" being employed at the meeting.
Indeed, Coralstown-Kinnegad delegate Joe Keeffe stated that the abuse referee Padraig O'Sullivan received was "nothing short of scandalous".
He added: "It's an education to Westmeath fans to see the sort of abuse you can give referees and get away with it.
"It was frightening.
"There were 4,000 Armagh fans and only a thousand Westmeath supporters.
"They completely took over Cusack Park and intimidated everyone that was there."
Westmeath football committee chairman Dermot Fox suggested that some of the Armagh supporters had arrived early in the town and had visited the local hostelries. "By the time they got to the ground, they were inebriated," he claimed.
I was in the town end of the Stand, and was surrounded by gentleman, and tasty women. Not one inebriated person about.
Quote from: Orior on July 27, 2017, 11:15:38 PM
Quote from: Owen Brannigan on July 27, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
From the Indo.........
It is understood, too, that some delegates in particular at the Westmeath board meeting were trenchant in their criticism of some Armagh followers, with words such as "aggressive" and "horrendous" being employed at the meeting.
Indeed, Coralstown-Kinnegad delegate Joe Keeffe stated that the abuse referee Padraig O'Sullivan received was "nothing short of scandalous".
He added: "It's an education to Westmeath fans to see the sort of abuse you can give referees and get away with it.
"It was frightening.
"There were 4,000 Armagh fans and only a thousand Westmeath supporters.
"They completely took over Cusack Park and intimidated everyone that was there."
Westmeath football committee chairman Dermot Fox suggested that some of the Armagh supporters had arrived early in the town and had visited the local hostelries. "By the time they got to the ground, they were inebriated," he claimed.
I was in the town end of the Stand, and was surrounded by gentleman, and tasty women. Not one inebriated person about.
They were probably talking about you...the rest were grand;)